Speaker 1: You heard Michael David. What are you waiting for? Call
Speaker 1: now 888-564-6173. This is Pastor's Perspective. I'm Brian Perez, and
Speaker 1: we are here for the next hour to answer the
Speaker 1: questions you've got about the Bible, the Christian faith, just
Speaker 1: about anything that's on your mind. 888-564-6173. You can also
Speaker 1: watch us on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: But, uh, and we've also got the phone number there
Speaker 1: on the bottom of the screen. You can send in
Speaker 1: your questions online, but the best way to get an
Speaker 1: answer is to call us at 888-564-6173. And here to
Speaker 1: answer your questions today, we've got Pastor Brian Broderson from
Speaker 1: Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway
Speaker 1: from Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Speaker 1: And we've got a biola buddy here with us today.
Speaker 1: We'll just call them biola buddies from now on. I
Speaker 1: like that name. That's a good title for us.
Speaker 1: It's Dave Keen from Biola University who has been on
Speaker 1: with us before and he has he is back. Welcome back, Dave. Oh,
Speaker 1: it's good to be here. I glad I could join
Speaker 1: you again. Yeah, you know what Viola buddy just put
Speaker 1: it like in my, my mind like little Lego kind
Speaker 1: of guys, you know that.
Speaker 1: Well, we are, we are very uh stackable, I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, they just kind of show us in these
Speaker 1: offices and have us teach classes and wind us up
Speaker 1: and we just go. Yeah, I think we're gonna maybe
Speaker 1: maybe Bobby could do an artistic rendition of the biola buddies.
Speaker 1: There you go. Let's do it, Bobby. And of course
Speaker 1: the biola song is Everything is awesome, right? That's like
Speaker 1: the
Speaker 1: When the sports teams play and everything, yeah, our football
Speaker 1: team has never lost, so we just hear that all
Speaker 1: the time because Ed Stetzer leads you guys all and
Speaker 1: everything is awesome. Anyway, uh, Dave is the professor and
Speaker 1: chair of Christian Ministries at the Talbot School of Theology
Speaker 1: at Byola University, and he is joining us today here
Speaker 1: on Pastor's Perspective. So you're ready to answer some questions,
Speaker 1: Dave and Brian and Bobby?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, leave all the, the tough ones for Dave
Speaker 1: though cause you know he came right from the.
Speaker 1: He came right from the classroom. So we're off for
Speaker 1: the summer, so my brain has to re-engage now. That's
Speaker 1: the best part of it being a prop. You get
Speaker 1: the summer off. We do. Well, good for you. That's
Speaker 1: what a concept.
Speaker 1: So, here's a question that'll definitely get you thinking. It's
Speaker 1: from Guy who sent this in. Uh, basically, he says,
Speaker 1: I believe, Lord, help my unbelief. And Guy says, I'm
Speaker 1: having trouble believing in the resurrection. Dave, what would you
Speaker 1: say to Guy?
Speaker 1: As Paul said, the resurrection is foundational to our faith.
Speaker 1: If we, if Christ had not been a rose from
Speaker 1: the dead, then we are most be pitied of all
Speaker 1: because our faith would not have any eternal benefits. So,
Speaker 1: this isn't a small question. Um, it really is one
Speaker 1: that you should lean into that you could have that assurance.
Speaker 1: It is, it is the hope that, um, that we
Speaker 1: hold on to. And so I, I think I would
Speaker 1: Encourage, um, all of us to, to go back to
Speaker 1: what the eyewitnesses, uh, kind of recounted and how the
Speaker 1: early church formed, uh, around the creed that looked at
Speaker 1: Christ died, was buried and a rose again, and how
Speaker 1: he appeared to, to many eyewitnesses who at that time
Speaker 1: were still alive when the church founded. And so, uh,
Speaker 1: standing upon their shoulders, standing upon the fact that the
Speaker 1: But the Jewish leaders didn't produce a body when, when
Speaker 1: the rumors of his resurrection, uh, happened. I think you
Speaker 1: kind of see both sides that A, the
Speaker 1: The Church had seen the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
Speaker 1: and the world couldn't answer. They couldn't take him to
Speaker 1: the tomb and show him the body's still there. They,
Speaker 1: they had nothing to answer it with. So I believe
Speaker 1: that as you hold on to, uh, those types of arguments,
Speaker 1: I think you could have a great assurance that our
Speaker 1: faith is not futile.
Speaker 1: Brian, any thoughts from you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that, that was, that was great, you know, it's
Speaker 1: interesting because
Speaker 1: Actually, there is so much evidence for the resurrection. It, it,
Speaker 1: I mean,
Speaker 1: OK, I, I've, I've heard people say it's hard for
Speaker 1: me to believe in the resurrection, but, um, when a,
Speaker 1: when a Christian says, I'm struggling with my faith and
Speaker 1: and what I'm struggling with is the resurrection, I think, well, hey,
Speaker 1: there is so much great, great information out there that
Speaker 1: you can do um a great deep dive into the
Speaker 1: historicity of the resurrection and and walk away.
Speaker 1: Uh, I think with absolute confidence in the fact that
Speaker 1: Jesus died. Um, one of the things, and Dave kind
Speaker 1: of alluded to it there is it's hard to explain
Speaker 1: the apostles, uh,
Speaker 1: Post, uh, Jesus' resurrection and ascension if he didn't rise
Speaker 1: from the dead, because when Jesus was crucified, you remember
Speaker 1: they were all scattered. They were fearful, they were, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to stay out of um
Speaker 1: The, the sights of of the Romans. They thought that
Speaker 1: they might.
Speaker 1: Be the next people to be taken and crucified. And
Speaker 1: so that was their, that was their disposition initially, but
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden they burst onto the scene
Speaker 1: with this amazing boldness and this fearlessness and this proclamation that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, talking to the very people that were responsible
Speaker 1: for the death of Jesus, and who could have then
Speaker 1: uh made their execution possible.
Speaker 1: They said, hey, you, you took, uh, God's Messiah, you
Speaker 1: crucified him, uh, you slew him, but God raised him
Speaker 1: from the dead, and we are His witnesses. So the,
Speaker 1: the apostles themselves, um, are a, a powerful testimony to
Speaker 1: the resurrection of Jesus. Um, you know, I, I wrote
Speaker 1: that small book a while back on the uniqueness of Jesus, um,
Speaker 1: no like or equal, and I've, I've got some pretty
Speaker 1: Quite a few pages on the topic of the resurrection
Speaker 1: in there and we'd be happy to get that to
Speaker 1: Guy if he, if he needed that. And of course, Bobby, you,
Speaker 1: in your recent book, you, you had a whole
Speaker 1: Chapter on the resurrection.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a, a lot
Speaker 1: that we can talk about here. I mean, you can
Speaker 1: just consider what Gary Habermass is in the process of
Speaker 1: doing with this multiple tome that he's writing on the resurrection.
Speaker 1: I think by the time he's done with it, he'll
Speaker 1: have written more scholarly, uh, research on the topic. I
Speaker 1: think one of the greatest arguments for the resurrection.
Speaker 1: Is the arguments against the resurrection. So when people come
Speaker 1: up with different objections, like, you know, the stolen body, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, if the disciples stole it, then, you know,
Speaker 1: why would they die if the non-believers stole it when
Speaker 1: the disciples claimed he's alive, they would have presented it, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the twin brother hoax, which is a silly one.
Speaker 1: Uh, the hallucination theory. There's just objections. It would take
Speaker 1: more faith for me to believe in any one of
Speaker 1: those objections than it would to just trust in the
Speaker 1: evidence of the resurrection. And I love it because Paul writes,
Speaker 1: it's the linchpin of Christianity. It's what transformed his life.
Speaker 1: How do you explain a person walking with letters in
Speaker 1: hand to arrest Christians, who the Christians whom he's already persecuted.
Speaker 1: Uh, apart from the resurrection, how do you explain the
Speaker 1: origin of the local church apart from the resurrection? Uh,
Speaker 1: no one, no one has ever, you know, brought his
Speaker 1: body to bear. And then you even think about some
Speaker 1: of the evidence, even of the shroud of turn and
Speaker 1: what that's producing, just showing the fact that he did die, uh, indeed, uh,
Speaker 1: which is powerful. So there's just so much stuff to
Speaker 1: talk about, it's a wonderful topic and
Speaker 1: I think that if you're having a hard time believing
Speaker 1: in the evidence, well then just consider the objections.
Speaker 1: Because they're so bad, uh, that when I was in
Speaker 1: my dark night of the soul, I found myself trying
Speaker 1: to think if I was to walk away from Christianity,
Speaker 1: I've got to explain away the resurrection, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: Do that. I, I cannot explain the resurrection away and
Speaker 1: then because of the resurrection, that just helps everything else.
Speaker 1: If Jesus rose, then he really did die, and if
Speaker 1: he really did die, he really did live, and when
Speaker 1: he really did live, he validated the Old Testament.
Speaker 1: And he said that there's more truth to come, so
Speaker 1: I trust that just as he validated the Old Testament,
Speaker 1: his first coming, he'll validate the process of the new
Speaker 1: and his second coming, and so you can go back
Speaker 1: and forward and all of that right out of the resurrection,
Speaker 1: because all of our objections don't matter about the Old Testament.
Speaker 1: If Jesus rose in the grave and he believed it,
Speaker 1: then that's good enough for me, Dave.
Speaker 1: I would just hope that whenever we have questions that
Speaker 1: we wouldn't just
Speaker 1: Be passive and say, well, I don't know, and so
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stall my faith journey. I really would hope
Speaker 1: that as James talks about, as you have questions, seek answers,
Speaker 1: be willing to do deeper reading. You know, there's quite
Speaker 1: a few books that have already been discussed here, um,
Speaker 1: that you can read. I know a good friend of mine,
Speaker 1: Sean McDowell wrote a book on evidence for the resurrection
Speaker 1: with his dad, Josh McDowell. There's, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: writing about this topic that
Speaker 1: will give you truth to hold on to. So in
Speaker 1: my mind, is this really just a question that someone
Speaker 1: is throwing up to say, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: should be following Jesus, or, you know, how, how can
Speaker 1: you find
Speaker 1: Enough of the answer to help you have a, a
Speaker 1: faith that is certain like Luke was talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: that we would know the certainty of the things we
Speaker 1: believe versus, well, we can't know cause we can't go
Speaker 1: back there, so I'm not gonna make a decision. I
Speaker 1: think that's a a faulty way of of pursuing Christ
Speaker 1: is to say, I can't know, so I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: seek it out. I, I just hope that guy would,
Speaker 1: would say, OK, I want to know more, and I,
Speaker 1: and do the hard work of finding out that truth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I, I think one other thing we could, we
Speaker 1: could say and what, um, what's the, who, who was
Speaker 1: it that asked the question? Uh, his name is Guy, Guy, Guy, yeah, yeah, Guy, I,
Speaker 1: I would say to just, you know, think a little
Speaker 1: more deeply about this question, like, if Jesus didn't rise
Speaker 1: from the dead, how do we even know anything about
Speaker 1: him today?
Speaker 1: Um, I mean, you know, like this would be the
Speaker 1: greatest hoax perpetrated on humanity in in all of history, um,
Speaker 1: because if you, if you think about and, and Josh McDowell, uh,
Speaker 1: years ago did this in his book and he sort
Speaker 1: of borrowed it from CS Lewis, but if you think
Speaker 1: about the claims of Jesus, and um,
Speaker 1: You know, as, as Lewis kind of articulated it, that
Speaker 1: Jesus was either um a liar or a lunatic, or
Speaker 1: he actually was the Lord. And if you, you stop
Speaker 1: and think about that, you think, well, OK, um, doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like Jesus was a was a liar, but if
Speaker 1: he didn't rise, he obviously was cause he was making
Speaker 1: up all kinds of fantastical things that were not reality.
Speaker 1: Uh, and that would kind of push you over into
Speaker 1: maybe uh.
Speaker 1: kind of a lunatic state, you know, if you're just
Speaker 1: walking around saying like you're the son of God and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Um, but the evidence, you know, is,
Speaker 1: is that he he really is the Lord and, and
Speaker 1: I think if you think of the time, if you
Speaker 1: think of the fact that multitudes of people were crucified, uh,
Speaker 1: by the Romans at the time, many Jews were crucified.
Speaker 1: Why, how, how is it that we, we actually believe
Speaker 1: in a in a Jewish carpenter who was crucified.
Speaker 1: That we believe he's the savior of the world if
Speaker 1: he didn't rise from the dead, it makes zero sense. We, we,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't obviously we wouldn't have this radio program. We
Speaker 1: wouldn't have this church. We wouldn't have this life, not have.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like Jesus would have come and gone
Speaker 1: in history like millions of other, uh, people that the
Speaker 1: Romans crucified, and who would have ever known his name
Speaker 1: or why, you know, we would.
Speaker 1: So the fact that we do it's just pretty good evidence,
Speaker 1: I think Bobby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then, you know, there are those that would
Speaker 1: maybe try to add on to the trilemma with legend,
Speaker 1: liar lord lunatic legend, so you have like the Jesus
Speaker 1: mythicist who don't even believe that, you know, he historically existed,
Speaker 1: and so that it uh is soundly refuted, people like
Speaker 1: Richard Carrier, it, it doesn't hold a lot of stock.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's just too much evidence that even, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the, the
Speaker 1: The, the majority of non-believing scholars recognize that he existed. Uh,
Speaker 1: I think maybe the hard point is uh getting to
Speaker 1: which Jesus, and that's why we have to stick with
Speaker 1: the biblical accounts, which are our best accounts, uh, because
Speaker 1: you do have a lot of merging in the first centuries,
Speaker 1: whether it's the Ibnites or the Doitists or the Aryans
Speaker 1: or the Gnostics, uh, these
Speaker 1: Different types of versions that began to swell up. And,
Speaker 1: and this is where Christian apologists always had their task
Speaker 1: before them to make sure that they were prepared to
Speaker 1: give a defense, but they were using scriptures, and I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, you take like the Aryans who
Speaker 1: believe he's the first creative being or whatever, like, as
Speaker 1: you said, Brian, I mean, he was
Speaker 1: And um if he was not Lord, uh, uh, then
Speaker 1: he would have been deemed crazy. I mean, he's walking
Speaker 1: around telling people that their sins are forgiven. He's claiming
Speaker 1: to be one with the Father, uh, he's referring to
Speaker 1: himself as the son of man. He's using the seven
Speaker 1: I am statements in the Gospel of John. Uh, there's
Speaker 1: just so much and what's so beautiful about Jesus, it's
Speaker 1: like the, the picture.
Speaker 1: Uh, that you just stare at and you constantly see
Speaker 1: more details and you'll never exhaust it. Uh, like picking
Speaker 1: up a photograph and staring at it, if, if, if
Speaker 1: you did that for a while, you'll notice many more details, uh,
Speaker 1: but you'll never get to the end of the detail
Speaker 1: of Jesus.
Speaker 1: Uh, uh, Guy, thank you for sending in your question
Speaker 1: through Kwave.com, and we are going to send you a
Speaker 1: copy of Pastor Brian's book, which is available for purchase
Speaker 1: on his website, Back to Basradio.com. That book is titled
Speaker 1: No Like or Equal The Uniqueness of Jesus. Check that
Speaker 1: out at back to Basicsradio.com. 888-564-6173 is our number, and
Speaker 1: we now go to Margot in Rancho Cucamonga. Welcome, Margo
Speaker 1: to Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Um, my question is, uh, regarding, uh, the human, uh,
Speaker 1: we are Homo sapiens, and I was reading in the Smithsonian, uh, uh, uh,
Speaker 1: magazine about the Neanderthals and the Denisovans.
Speaker 1: These are uh
Speaker 1: Different species. So where does that fit in the creation story?
Speaker 1: These are supposedly over 200,000 years old, and they have
Speaker 1: unearthed the uh the bones and the skulls, and I mean,
Speaker 1: the evidence is there. It's, it's a fact. It's a
Speaker 1: tangible evidence. So where does that fit? Did God create
Speaker 1: them a long time before he created man?
Speaker 1: Uh, I don't know what to think. Uh, there's nothing
Speaker 1: mentioned in the Bible according to my knowledge, so what
Speaker 1: do you think, Bobby Conway?
Speaker 1: Well, some of this is gonna come down to your
Speaker 1: view of creation and how long ago it was. Uh,
Speaker 1: I think it is a problem for the young Earth creationists,
Speaker 1: because of all of the paleontology and all of the
Speaker 1: Um, you know, studies that are done in forensics or
Speaker 1: using carbon dating or other types of metrics to measure
Speaker 1: some of this stuff, um, it, it would seem like
Speaker 1: is if the field has been duped, uh, in some ways.
Speaker 1: Now, I know Pastor Brian, you know, he is a
Speaker 1: young Earth creationist, and he, he'll certainly, um, offer a
Speaker 1: rebuttal on that. I do think that, um, you know,
Speaker 1: God's given us two books, the, the, the book, The
Speaker 1: Word in the world. We can general revelation and special revelation.
Speaker 1: And so, um, if you're an old Earth creationist, um,
Speaker 1: you don't have, um, a problem recognizing.
Speaker 1: Um, what to do with situations like this. Now, uh,
Speaker 1: you don't even have to arrive at a theistic evolution, uh,
Speaker 1: which is not a view that I hold. Uh, I'm
Speaker 1: not really sure what theory I'd even ascribe to. I
Speaker 1: just think that it does make sense that the universe
Speaker 1: is old.
Speaker 1: Uh, and, uh, Adam and Eve would have been created
Speaker 1: some 60 to 10,000 years ago, but this isn't, um,
Speaker 1: even widely or or totally agreed on among scholarship, and
Speaker 1: we do have to be generous with one another as
Speaker 1: it relates to
Speaker 1: Understanding, um, the age of the universe because there are
Speaker 1: different viewpoints that people do have. I think what you
Speaker 1: have to hold to though, is a literal Adam and Eve, uh,
Speaker 1: and a literal uh Genesis 1 through 11.
Speaker 1: Um, you know, account is really important because what some
Speaker 1: people do is they kind of get mythical with those
Speaker 1: early chapters of Genesis, but it's hard to do that
Speaker 1: and then pick up, uh, in a literal way for
Speaker 1: the remainder chapters. So I would just say that if
Speaker 1: you were ever in a conversation with somebody that can't
Speaker 1: even possibly believe in Christianity because they'll, there's someone saying,
Speaker 1: you have to be a young earth creationist.
Speaker 1: Well, I would much rather say, you know what, there's
Speaker 1: plenty of Christians that believe differently, and uh they believe
Speaker 1: that um that God through the, you know, created uh
Speaker 1: this through the progress of time, uh, if it's somebody
Speaker 1: who's a progressive.
Speaker 1: Creationists or a gap theorist or a framework hypothesis or
Speaker 1: theistic evolution, heck, I'd rather somebody hold to that and
Speaker 1: still believe in Jesus than think they have to walk
Speaker 1: away from it all because they don't ascribe to young Earth,
Speaker 1: and I know even Pastor Brian would agree with that.
Speaker 1: Would you?
Speaker 1: Well, if Bobby said so, I, I guess I would, um.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I, I mean, we, we have a different, uh,
Speaker 1: view on that. But I, but I would say to, um, Margo, Margot,
Speaker 1: I think a couple of things I would say. Number one, I,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that now, now, of course, let me
Speaker 1: back up a little bit. The Smithsonian, I think you
Speaker 1: mentioned the Smithsonian, correct? OK, yeah, and the Smithsonian, I mean,
Speaker 1: this is, they're gonna, this is the way they're gonna
Speaker 1: see it, that, you know, they see it through a lens.
Speaker 1: Of naturalism, uh, they see it through an evolutionary lens,
Speaker 1: so they're gonna talk with great confidence about, you know, this,
Speaker 1: these Neanderthals that's been this, this old and, uh, kind
Speaker 1: of a um a pre-human species, uh, but there are many, many, uh,
Speaker 1: scientists who actually
Speaker 1: Uh, concluded that Neanderthals are, are just actually humans whose, uh,
Speaker 1: because of nutritional deficiencies, their, um, features formed in the
Speaker 1: ways that they did form, and then to say that
Speaker 1: they're 200,000 years old or however many, the the whole
Speaker 1: dating thing is really, um,
Speaker 1: It's uncertain, so you can't put all of your stock
Speaker 1: in that. Uh, so I, I would say that, um, the,
Speaker 1: the Bible gives us an account of creation and the
Speaker 1: most important part is the creation of like humanity and like,
Speaker 1: like Bobby said, um, the Bible tells us about the
Speaker 1: creation of the first man.
Speaker 1: And the first woman. So if you get the idea
Speaker 1: that there there were some other creatures that were sort of,
Speaker 1: they were sort of like human, but they weren't quite
Speaker 1: human yet and then over a process of time, they evolved. Well,
Speaker 1: that contradicts the biblical account. So, um, I think the
Speaker 1: biblical account is a better um account of the speculation
Speaker 1: that you get from these
Speaker 1: You know, different scientific perspectives, which a lot of them
Speaker 1: don't even agree with each other on. So, um, Dave,
Speaker 1: what do you think?
Speaker 1: Well, I agree with, with both of you, especially Bobby,
Speaker 1: how you say, what are the essentials we hold on to,
Speaker 1: the essentials that there is a creator.
Speaker 1: that started everything that there is was a literal Adam
Speaker 1: and Eve that were the first creation, and that we
Speaker 1: look at the, the accounting of Genesis as a historical document,
Speaker 1: not myth. If you start with that, then you start
Speaker 1: to consider, OK, what, what are some of the ideas
Speaker 1: or theories of who these Neanderthals could be.
Speaker 1: But I also agree that, like you said, Bobby, the
Speaker 1: world shows us truth as well. In other words, we
Speaker 1: look at God's word, we look at God's world together, integrated,
Speaker 1: that's how we form our best understanding. And the world
Speaker 1: does show us microevolution, not macro. Macro is, you know,
Speaker 1: a frog became a human.
Speaker 1: Microevolution is within the species of birds, they developed this
Speaker 1: trait or lost this aspect of genetic, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: how did some birds have teeth? Well, genetically, maybe back
Speaker 1: then they had them over time, they didn't need them,
Speaker 1: they lost them. So we do see through
Speaker 1: Various means microevolution. And so in some ways, I really
Speaker 1: do believe that Neanderthals, like you're saying, Brian, are humans
Speaker 1: that were created but have different characteristics that came out
Speaker 1: through different nutrition or or uh season of of use.
Speaker 1: As far as young Earth, old earth, I, all I
Speaker 1: know is when I read scripture, Adam and Eve were
Speaker 1: not created. It appears to be as babies. They were
Speaker 1: able to sustain themselves. They were not dependent upon a
Speaker 1: parent to feed them, to nurture them, to protect them.
Speaker 1: They were given jobs to do, it appears very quickly
Speaker 1: to have dominion over the earth. So if God can
Speaker 1: create a fully formed man and woman,
Speaker 1: Then my faith can say God can create a fully
Speaker 1: formed old universe, but
Speaker 1: Old universe, young universe, it doesn't change the reality that
Speaker 1: there's a creator of it all who has given purpose
Speaker 1: to my life, where if it truly is then uh
Speaker 1: an act of evolution and randomness, then my life all
Speaker 1: of a sudden is devoid of intentionality because I don't
Speaker 1: have that God given.
Speaker 1: Purpose, uniqueness that, that, that the creator has given to me. Bobby.
Speaker 1: Well, let's. I wanted to, let's ask Margo first. um,
Speaker 1: does any of this help, Margo? I hope so, but
Speaker 1: you're right. Actually, yeah, when, uh, when one of you, uh,
Speaker 1: gentlemen said that because of mutations, maybe they were humans
Speaker 1: and because of, uh, lack of nutrition or mutations or
Speaker 1: something they ended up being that is that, does that
Speaker 1: go also for the dinner ovens or or uh.
Speaker 1: Uh, it's for the for the what? I missed that word.
Speaker 1: There's another uh uh species that's uh Denisovan like the
Speaker 1: Neanderthals and the Denisovan. Yeah, yeah, all of those supposed
Speaker 1: pre-humans would actually fall into the category of being humans
Speaker 1: who for whatever reason, like the Neanderthals, you know, were
Speaker 1: um shaped differently. But again, if you're reading the um
Speaker 1: Uh, you know, if you're reading the Smithsonian, they're, they're
Speaker 1: not gonna let, you know, they, they don't want any
Speaker 1: water seeping out of their theory, so they're gonna try
Speaker 1: to make it just airtight, like, oh no, this is
Speaker 1: exactly how it was. But you know, here's another thing
Speaker 1: to think about and I, I often think of this how, um,
Speaker 1: do you know, recorded history, recorded history goes back, um, 6.
Speaker 1: Maybe 8, maybe 10,000 years at the most. 10,000 years
Speaker 1: would be max. Now, some people, well, you know, people
Speaker 1: always talk about, well, 50,000 years ago, this, that and
Speaker 1: the other thing, uh, history as far as we know
Speaker 1: it just goes back to, um, you know, 68 1000
Speaker 1: years ago. So whatever happened before that,
Speaker 1: Um,
Speaker 1: If there was anything that happened before that, we don't know.
Speaker 1: We just know what we have, uh, recorded for us
Speaker 1: and what we have recorded for us is pretty much
Speaker 1: what the Bible says, that life arose in sort of the,
Speaker 1: the region of the world, like, you know, the kind
Speaker 1: of the Middle East and and all of that. So I,
Speaker 1: I think it's just good to remember that too. Every, I,
Speaker 1: I read a lot of history, every single history book
Speaker 1: I read, especially world history, you know what they have
Speaker 1: to begin with, they have a pre-history.
Speaker 1: And they tell you all the stuff that might have happened,
Speaker 1: and then they start with, you know, about 6000 BC.
Speaker 1: That's where the actual story starts. Bobby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting though when I think about like,
Speaker 1: like in France, like, you know, the they they date,
Speaker 1: some of the stuff from over 30,000 years ago from
Speaker 1: like features of horses and stuff in caves and so
Speaker 1: it does get, um, and I know that these dates
Speaker 1: can be sporadic, but there are people that would say
Speaker 1: that you've got different artifacts and caves and stuff like
Speaker 1: that of, um, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: Indonesia and other, other spots. Um, but it's so hard,
Speaker 1: isn't it, with these dates? I mean, even the Neanderthals,
Speaker 1: you'll get this range from 40,000 to
Speaker 1: 400,000, you know, uh, obviously there's DNA from the Neanderthals in, in,
Speaker 1: in 1 to 4%, uh, and you go, how do
Speaker 1: you explain that? And obviously there's, you know, they just
Speaker 1: didn't have the image of God branded on them.
Speaker 1: Uh, but that's an interesting thought as well, um, to
Speaker 1: consider the copulation that was taking place. Uh, but they
Speaker 1: were obviously toolmaking and stuff like that. I just kind
Speaker 1: of feel so ignorant when it comes to dating that
Speaker 1: I remember the purpose of Genesis 121 and 2 is
Speaker 1: God created us in His image to steward the universe. Amen.
Speaker 1: In 6 days. In what? In 6 days.
Speaker 1: But you told you said I was a young Earth creationist,
Speaker 1: so I just thought I would prove it. Throw that
Speaker 1: in there. All right, very good, Margo. Thank you for
Speaker 1: your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective. It's time for
Speaker 1: us to take our break, and then we'll be back
Speaker 1: with more of your questions. Got lots of good ones
Speaker 1: on the board, Nicole, Andrea, Sean, and, uh, you guys
Speaker 1: are welcome to call for the next 30 minutes at 888-564-6173.
Speaker 1: We've got Brian Broderson and Bobby Conway here and our
Speaker 1: special guest, Dave Keen from B.
Speaker 1: University. Dave there is the, uh, professor and chair of
Speaker 1: Christian Ministries, and you can find out more about Biola
Speaker 1: at biola.edu. Biola University is the most comprehensively Christian university
Speaker 1: in North America. I still remember that tagline. Can you
Speaker 1: believe it? 888-564-6173 is the number to call us for
Speaker 1: the next half hour, so grab an open line while
Speaker 1: there's still time.
Speaker 1: 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today on Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: I'm Brian Perez and I'm joined by Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway,
Speaker 1: and Dave Keene, our special guest from Viola University. 888-564-6173
Speaker 1: is our number and let's go back to the phones.
Speaker 1: Sean hung up. OK, so we'll go to Nicole. Here
Speaker 1: is Nicole calling us from Sam Burdue. Hi there, Nicole.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: Hello, thank you for having me on. Yeah, thanks for
Speaker 1: calling in today.
Speaker 1: Um, I, my question is, um, so I know Romans
Speaker 1: 10:9 says that anyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord
Speaker 1: and believes in the heart, they shall be saved, but
Speaker 1: there's a scripture that's kind of troubled me because I'm
Speaker 1: 36 years old and I don't have any children, and
Speaker 1: the scripture is 1 Timothy chapter 2:15, which says, But
Speaker 1: women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love,
Speaker 1: and holiness.
Speaker 1: And
Speaker 2: so I was wondering um if I can still be
Speaker 2: saved without having children and um
Speaker 1: if so,
Speaker 2: what was the context of that
Speaker 2: scripture? OK,
Speaker 1: Dave.
Speaker 1: Uh, I love, I love that he started with Romans 10.
Speaker 1: I actually read that today for my own, uh, personal
Speaker 1: devotion time and, and, and really coming back to it's
Speaker 1: our faith that Jesus is Lord, that he's, that's how
Speaker 1: we're saved. And therefore, if our salvation is based.
Speaker 1: Uh, through faith and the grace of God, that nothing
Speaker 1: we do earns it or denies it from us. This
Speaker 1: passage you quoted in in 1 Timothy chapter 2, verse 15,
Speaker 1: the context is looking at in a in a church
Speaker 1: in Ephesus that had a lot of struggles with some
Speaker 1: wrong theology, with some bad structure, Timothy was sent by
Speaker 1: Paul to bring the church back into right living and
Speaker 1: right believing.
Speaker 1: And therefore, in chapter 2, before he gets to chapter
Speaker 1: 3 and talking about overseers of the church, in chapter 2,
Speaker 1: he sets up the structure of men and women and
Speaker 1: how they're gonna relate to each other because Jesus gave
Speaker 1: a lot of freedom to women. He included women in
Speaker 1: his ministry and so unlike the Jewish, uh,
Speaker 1: The temple that kept women out, women were now allowed
Speaker 1: to worship alongside men in the early church. This did
Speaker 1: cause some struggles for the family dynamic. It caused some
Speaker 1: struggle struggles for their marriages.
Speaker 1: And so as Paul is giving some standards of the
Speaker 1: relationships of um men and women and how they're to
Speaker 1: relate to each other within the church, he then justifies
Speaker 1: those dynamics by looking at how Adam and Eve were created,
Speaker 1: we just actually talked about a literal Adam and Eve
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: Justifying Eve was the one that was deceived first, and therefore,
Speaker 1: because Eve was deceived, now we're talking about specifically how
Speaker 1: are women going to be saved, and there's, there's really,
Speaker 1: I think, two ways that most people look at this,
Speaker 1: some people look at this is that they'll be saved.
Speaker 1: Through childbirth, meaning like because they are faithful in their
Speaker 1: biblical role of producing children, that's how they are saved.
Speaker 1: Once again, that puts the emphasis on what we can
Speaker 1: do to our salvation. Other people interpret this as they'll
Speaker 1: be saved in childbirth, meaning that they will physically survive
Speaker 1: the the act of childbirth. However, we do know that
Speaker 1: many godly women have passed in childbirth, so it doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense.
Speaker 1: A better translation is not actually in the English, a
Speaker 1: better translation actually comes from the Greek. Where in the
Speaker 1: Greek grammar, it actually emphasizes that women will be saved.
Speaker 1: Through the childbirth, referring to the birth of Christ, and
Speaker 1: I think that's how I, how I look at this
Speaker 1: is that in understanding that women have been, not women,
Speaker 1: but all humanity has been deceived and Eve, being a
Speaker 1: woman was first.
Speaker 1: Women especially will be saved through the birth of Christ,
Speaker 1: and and looking at what he has done for them.
Speaker 1: And so I would come back to to that as
Speaker 1: an idea. So, that's my interpretation of that, Nicole.
Speaker 1: That's great. I, I like, I like that and obviously.
Speaker 1: It is definitely that versus the other, because the other
Speaker 1: is like, like Nicole is saying, she's 36 years old,
Speaker 1: she's not even married, or she doesn't have children. What
Speaker 1: does that do for her salvation? Well, it doesn't affect
Speaker 1: her salvation at all, because her salvation is through, through
Speaker 1: faith in Jesus. Yeah, this passage has been um perplexing
Speaker 1: to many for
Speaker 1: A long, long time. So, um, I think Dave, that
Speaker 1: was a great, just, you know, there's other, other ways
Speaker 1: that we could look at it, but
Speaker 1: Don't want to add any confusion here. I think that's
Speaker 1: probably the best way to understand it at this point. Bobby,
Speaker 1: do you have any thoughts though?
Speaker 1: Well, I thought that was a great answer, Dave. Uh,
Speaker 1: the only thing that, you know, I would add is
Speaker 1: there's a, a principle that they teach in what is
Speaker 1: known as hermeneutics, which is kind of the science of
Speaker 1: understanding the Bible, and you know, you interpret the less
Speaker 1: clear in light of what is clear, and you'll come
Speaker 1: across passages sometimes that are just
Speaker 1: Hard to pin down like when Paul 1 Corinthians 15
Speaker 1: talks about baptism for the dead. Well, we aren't to
Speaker 1: do what the Mormon Church did and go set up,
Speaker 1: you know, all these genealogical sinners and start baptizing for
Speaker 1: the dead. Uh, it's an obscure verse, so you interpret
Speaker 1: the less clear in light of what is more clear
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: I look at a passage like this, and of course, like, you,
Speaker 1: can you imagine, I mean, how many women never got
Speaker 1: to have children? Like if having children was a requirement
Speaker 1: for salvation, then basically every child that died is a female, uh,
Speaker 1: that didn't give birth, and then, uh, there's, there's two
Speaker 1: ways of salvation, one way for the guys and another
Speaker 1: way for girls by having children, so it just really
Speaker 1: complicates it. I think what, um,
Speaker 1: What we talked about already, it really lands it good,
Speaker 1: but I would just encourage you whenever you come across
Speaker 1: an obscure passage, uh, you know, I mean, can you
Speaker 1: imagine like standing before the Lord and now you're hosed
Speaker 1: because you couldn't properly interpret this verse or baptism for
Speaker 1: the dead.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many interpretations on the baptism for
Speaker 1: the dead passage that I'm just gonna plead ignorant. Uh,
Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, there's a lot of passage,
Speaker 1: I think, in the Bible that maybe God just leaves
Speaker 1: there for us to say, I don't know, because, you know, we,
Speaker 1: we just can't give answers for everything and I'm, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of thankful for that. It's hard to wrap
Speaker 1: our head around. I'm still trying to figure out, you know,
Speaker 1: Romans 5:8 and John 3:16.
Speaker 1: Uh, the, the things that are clear and, and how
Speaker 1: to live that out in my own life and the
Speaker 1: effect of it, let alone these things. Well, well, since
Speaker 1: it seems that today we are trying to give the
Speaker 1: longest answers possible to every question that we're gonna extend
Speaker 1: this one a little bit further.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. I got so much clarity
Speaker 1: and I really appreciate you guys. Great. OK, Nicole, we're
Speaker 1: just gonna talk to ourselves so you don't have to
Speaker 1: stay on the line. Nicole's like, I'm done. But, but
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting too because I think as you
Speaker 1: look at this passage.
Speaker 1: Um, there's, there's, there's different sort of things there that
Speaker 1: you have to think about, like, even like saved, what
Speaker 1: when we as Christians, when we hear the word saved,
Speaker 1: we automatically think of
Speaker 1: You know, eternal salvation, belief in Jesus and all of that.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the word means like just delivered. It just means saved.
Speaker 1: It in this context, it could be saved out of
Speaker 1: something else, not salvation of the soul, but it could be.
Speaker 1: That what's happening here is certain women and even more
Speaker 1: specifically certain wives are trying to sort of hijack the
Speaker 1: ministry in the church. They're trying to take over. And
Speaker 1: the apostle Paul is saying, you know, no, we, we
Speaker 1: don't want that. That's not, that's, you know, a woman
Speaker 1: is not to, uh,
Speaker 1: Usurp authority over the man. Teach usurped authority. That's the
Speaker 1: idea of taking a position, you know, kind of aggressively,
Speaker 1: and he's saying, um, it could be that he's saying, no,
Speaker 1: that that's not what the women are to do. And
Speaker 1: then because of the childbearing thing,
Speaker 1: If it is referring to actual childbearing, it has to
Speaker 1: be referring.
Speaker 1: To married women and probably to the local situation that
Speaker 1: is actually going on at the moment. So, and I,
Speaker 1: I read somewhere years ago that the word that uh
Speaker 1: Child rearing could also possibly be an interpretation there. So,
Speaker 1: in other words, instead of trying to hijack the leadership
Speaker 1: of the church,
Speaker 1: This will save you from that. Do the thing that
Speaker 1: God has given you here, take care of your family.
Speaker 1: And that is, but it's very specific for that situation
Speaker 1: versus a universal application to it, or it would apply,
Speaker 1: you know, in other contexts where a similar thing was happening.
Speaker 1: Nicole, thanks for your phone call, and we received a
Speaker 1: question on Facebook, somewhat similar. It's from Jessica in your Belinda,
Speaker 1: not my Belinda, your Belinda, but, uh, Jessica's uh, questions
Speaker 1: about Genesis 3:16, where some translations they say your desire
Speaker 1: shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.
Speaker 1: Other translations talk about, uh, wives will desire to control
Speaker 1: their husbands. So which one is right? Jessica wants to know.
Speaker 1: Brian.
Speaker 1: Well, I think the ESV translators.
Speaker 1: Went with the latter
Speaker 1: Control your husband was yeah control. But, but I think
Speaker 1: that was a bit, I, I think they got in
Speaker 1: some trouble over that. There was some, some controversy that
Speaker 1: arose over the ESV translation of that passage because of what,
Speaker 1: what they said it was implying, um.
Speaker 1: But I, I think the actual rendering is uh the
Speaker 1: first one that, um,
Speaker 1: And they, they, they connect it to.
Speaker 1: The um the situation with with Cain where God is
Speaker 1: speaking to Cain, and he's talking about sin is at
Speaker 1: the door and sin, um, it wants to overtake you,
Speaker 1: but you, you should have dominion over it. So it's
Speaker 1: the same language that's used.
Speaker 1: In the Genesis 3 passage as the Genesis 4 passage,
Speaker 1: or you know that it looks like real quick it's
Speaker 1: the new living that says control. Oh, it's a new, yeah,
Speaker 1: just so you know. I think that because this is
Speaker 1: in the context of the curse.
Speaker 1: I think we have to look at the strife that
Speaker 1: That sin has created amongst us. In other words, sin
Speaker 1: broke our relationship with God, it broke our relationship with
Speaker 1: each other, and creation, it causes hardship, and so,
Speaker 1: Whether you describe this as her, the wife's desire shall
Speaker 1: be for her husband, and he shall rule over you, or,
Speaker 1: you know, she's gonna have her own desires, and yet
Speaker 1: those are gonna be thwarted by her her submission to
Speaker 1: the husband. That I think the nature of the curse
Speaker 1: is strife, that things are not gonna be good between
Speaker 1: the husband and the wife because of sin, and
Speaker 1: And until we are restored by Christ and forgiveness, we
Speaker 1: do have strife with our, our spouses in great ways.
Speaker 1: So I think, however you read that, the translation should
Speaker 1: emphasize the the conflict there will be between a husband
Speaker 1: and wife in that moment because of the curse, whether
Speaker 1: it's the conflict of um
Speaker 1: The wife will be to try to have a desire
Speaker 1: for the husband, but it's not gonna be met, or
Speaker 1: they're gonna have a contrary desires to each other.
Speaker 1: Very good. Uh, that was Jessica. Thank you for sending
Speaker 1: in your question through Facebook. 888-564-6173 is our number. We've
Speaker 1: got Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway, and Dave Keen from Viola
Speaker 1: answering your questions. And here is Andrea in El Monte.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the program, Andrea.
Speaker 2: Hi, good afternoon.
Speaker 1: Good
Speaker 2: afternoon. Hello.
Speaker 2: OK, so first I wanted to thank you all for
Speaker 2: giving us the opportunity to, to learn about, you know,
Speaker 2: to have some knowledge about the word of God. I mean,
Speaker 2: I know we have the Bible, but for some of
Speaker 2: us who don't yet have the great conviction or who
Speaker 2: don't have our priorities straight, um, you are a great
Speaker 2: help to us in explaining, you know, and making, making
Speaker 2: us understand.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you.
Speaker 2: So me going back to when you started the program,
Speaker 2: you talked about um the gospel of John where Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ talked of himself as the son, but also that
Speaker 2: he was one with God.
Speaker 2: So, um,
Speaker 2: I mean, some things are made for us not to
Speaker 2: really understand that until at some point there's something. I
Speaker 2: think either way, for me, Jesus Christ is the greatest
Speaker 2: person who walks on this earth, and that's what I
Speaker 2: want to believe, and I, and I do believe it.
Speaker 2: Um, however, when it comes to that,
Speaker 2: There's also in the Gospel where Jesus Christ also um
Speaker 2: teaches us to pray, to pray to God the Father,
Speaker 2: and he, he prays to God, his father too.
Speaker 2: So my question is like, sometimes I have a doubt
Speaker 2: about am I praying the right way, and I get
Speaker 2: this doubt because some, some um religions or some pastors will,
Speaker 2: will pray directly to Jesus Christ. And I know the
Speaker 2: scripture somewhere also says that if we accept Jesus Christ
Speaker 2: as our Lord and Savior, we will be saved.
Speaker 2: But then, can you explain to me really like what's
Speaker 2: the right way to pray? Because I pray every day
Speaker 2: and I just have the doubt. Am I doing this correct?
Speaker 2: Is God listening to me or what am I doing
Speaker 2: wrong or something, you know?
Speaker 1: What would you say, Bobby?
Speaker 1: Well, I would encourage you to, you know, take it
Speaker 1: easy on yourself, uh, you know, that this is a
Speaker 1: question that comes up pretty often on pastor's perspective, um,
Speaker 1: can I talk to Jesus or can I pray to
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit?
Speaker 1: Um, and there's one God revealed in three persons, Father, Son,
Speaker 1: and Holy Spirit. And uh your initial part of the conversation,
Speaker 1: Father doesn't mean that the father had a son. He's
Speaker 1: the eternal son of God. It's not, um, accurate to
Speaker 1: think in terms of, oh, the, you know, the father
Speaker 1: copulated with somebody and then produced a son, or the
Speaker 1: father just created the son. Um, he's the eternal son
Speaker 1: of God. He
Speaker 1: Uh, it, it's, there, there's an order. They're, they're equal,
Speaker 1: one God, three persons, but there's function and order, uh,
Speaker 1: that you can see. And so that happens with the
Speaker 1: Father sends the Son, the Son sends the Spirit, and
Speaker 1: some would say that the Father and the Son send
Speaker 1: the Spirit, uh, but there is Jesus submitting to the Father,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean he's less than. I would say that,
Speaker 1: you know, Stephen lifted up his eyes and prayed.
Speaker 1: Uh, to Jesus, uh, so you see that happening there. Uh, I,
Speaker 1: I think that in 12 Corinthians 13:14, you know, fellowship
Speaker 1: with the, the triune God. Uh, so I, I, I
Speaker 1: don't think you're, you know what, if you, if you
Speaker 1: read a book on the Holy Spirit, let's say, it
Speaker 1: would be very appropriate to stop and just say thank
Speaker 1: you to the Holy Spirit for praying for me with
Speaker 1: groanings that I don't understand. Thank you for in.
Speaker 1: Interceding, uh, thank you, Jesus for being the mediator. Thank you, Father, for, uh,
Speaker 1: drawing me. Uh, I mean, there's so, there's so much
Speaker 1: you can just gather, and so when you come across
Speaker 1: these attributes or characteristics, you can praise each person of
Speaker 1: the Trinity for their function and
Speaker 1: You can appreciate the Holy Spirit for being a comforter
Speaker 1: to you or for, you know, convicting you, or you
Speaker 1: can praise Jesus for dying on the cross for you.
Speaker 1: You can thank the Father for giving the Son and
Speaker 1: sending him into the world. So you can use scripture
Speaker 1: as your material to address each person in the Godhead. Dave.
Speaker 1: I think God cares more about our attitude than our
Speaker 1: exact words. You know, when Christ told the story of
Speaker 1: the Pharisee and the tax sector that both go into
Speaker 1: the temple to pray.
Speaker 1: He noted it was about the tax collector's attitude of
Speaker 1: just being saying, have mercy on me. And so I
Speaker 1: think it really is more about your heart. And so, Andrea,
Speaker 1: if your heart is just to cry out to your,
Speaker 1: to your God and to seek Him and to honor
Speaker 1: him and to glorify him, he's gonna respond in love and, and,
Speaker 1: and truly seeking.
Speaker 1: Uh, your best in that, um, because if, if I
Speaker 1: don't know what to pray and the Holy Spirit fills
Speaker 1: in the right words, though, then I gotta know whatever
Speaker 1: words I do have that I'm given by the Holy
Speaker 1: Spirit to speak out loud, then they're gonna be OK. Yeah. Brian. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Andrea, I think too, we, we have to understand
Speaker 1: that in the biblical, you know, text, as we're looking
Speaker 1: at Jesus, you know it never said.
Speaker 1: You know, the Bible never says, don't, don't pray directly
Speaker 1: to Jesus, just make sure you pray like this, and
Speaker 1: you know, it never says that. Jesus emphasizes prayer to
Speaker 1: the Father because Jesus was wanting everybody to understand something
Speaker 1: that God was their father too, that they had uh
Speaker 1: a relationship with him that they could count on him
Speaker 1: just like they could count on, you know, the best,
Speaker 1: the world's best father.
Speaker 1: Uh, to love them and take care of them and
Speaker 1: provide for them and all of those things. So Jesus is,
Speaker 1: he's wanting them to understand this.
Speaker 1: And so that's and and of course, you know, so
Speaker 1: he says, pray our Father in heaven, and um
Speaker 1: But it's not like, but don't ever make, make sure
Speaker 1: you never pray to me because that would be wrong,
Speaker 1: or don't ever pray to the Holy Spirit, that that
Speaker 1: won't work, you know, so, um, like, you know, like
Speaker 1: they said, it's, it's, uh, the heart is what God
Speaker 1: is really looking at here and like Bobby said, you know,
Speaker 1: you can, you can pray to.
Speaker 1: The Father, you can pray to Jesus, you can pray
Speaker 1: to the spirit because essentially you're praying to God that
Speaker 1: God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Does that help?
Speaker 1: 11 thing I was gonna say too, it makes perfect
Speaker 1: sense that the most recorded prayers are to the Father. Uh,
Speaker 1: we have a few to the Son, and you're not
Speaker 1: seeing prayers to the Holy Spirit, and why is that? Well,
Speaker 1: progressive revelation.
Speaker 1: The Father is revealed and then the son comes on
Speaker 1: the scenes and uh what you got are the gospels
Speaker 1: that are taking place, and you, you get to see
Speaker 1: the interaction. And Jesus is showing what a father relationship
Speaker 1: looks like, like Israel missed it. Let me model for
Speaker 1: you the way this relationship's supposed to work, and so
Speaker 1: that's what he's doing, uh, but he doesn't reject worship
Speaker 1: when it comes his way or anything like that, you know,
Speaker 1: where anybody else would.
Speaker 1: And then the Holy Spirit, he says, I'm gonna send
Speaker 1: you the Holy Spirit. So it makes perfect sense that
Speaker 1: we don't see as many prayers equally hashed out.
Speaker 1: Very good. Andrea, thank you for calling us today here
Speaker 1: on Pastor's Perspective. And now let's go to
Speaker 1: Bermuda Dunes. Here is Dan. Welcome to the program, Dan.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for calling
Speaker 1: in today.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Um, I heard one of you guys, I,
Speaker 1: I didn't catch who said it, but I was driving
Speaker 1: and talked about how we are made in God's image.
Speaker 1: And I had some comments on that, and maybe you
Speaker 1: guys can elaborate more. But the Bible says, Adam and
Speaker 1: Eve were made in God's image, you know, male and female,
Speaker 1: he made them. But he's talking about Adam and Eve.
Speaker 1: We are born.
Speaker 1: We're not created beings. Angels were created. Adam and Eve
Speaker 1: was created. There were nothing else and boom, they were created,
Speaker 1: you know, the heavens and earth were created. But we
Speaker 1: as humans, we are, we are born as a baby
Speaker 1: and we grow up, you know, we get the breath
Speaker 1: of life in us from God. But our image is
Speaker 1: after Adam's fallen image. So we are not made in
Speaker 1: the image of God as human beings, you and I
Speaker 1: and everybody. That's, that's my take on that, you know, maybe.
Speaker 1: I can hear something from you guys elaborate on that,
Speaker 1: but we are not created images, you know, created beings
Speaker 1: as human beings. We are in a fallen state that
Speaker 1: will die in Adam's fallen state after he sinned and died. The,
Speaker 1: he was, when he was created, he was clothed in light.
Speaker 1: Like when Jesus and his glorified body on Mount on
Speaker 1: the mountain transfiguration, he was bright light and everything. That
Speaker 1: was his glorified body and that's what I think Adam
Speaker 1: was created.
Speaker 1: You know, more in that image. Elijah showed up with
Speaker 1: Jesus and, you know, in the bright light, you know, being. Well,
Speaker 1: listen to the answer.
Speaker 1: Jeez, OK.
Speaker 1: Well, OK, yeah, I, you know, yes, Adam and Eve
Speaker 1: were created directly by God, uh, but
Speaker 1: According to scripture, um, all of us are created in
Speaker 1: the image of God. After the flood,
Speaker 1: When, um, God was reestablishing sort of government for the world,
Speaker 1: he gives a prohibition uh or or he actually gives
Speaker 1: a command if a man sheds another man's blood, that
Speaker 1: man shall be that man's blood shall be shed for
Speaker 1: in the image of God, man was created.
Speaker 1: So
Speaker 1: God says that all people were created in His image
Speaker 1: and not like the direct creation like Adam and Eve were,
Speaker 1: but we, uh, we still all bear the image of God.
Speaker 1: The New Testament speaks about the fact that we are, uh,
Speaker 1: created in Christ. We are, uh, recreated in God's image.
Speaker 1: So Dave you got a verse there? Well.
Speaker 1: In the verse that I think you're looking at specifically
Speaker 1: in Genesis 1:26 when it says God is saying to Himself,
Speaker 1: let us make man in our image, that word Hebrew
Speaker 1: word for man is the word Adam, but in this case,
Speaker 1: it's not the person of Adam, it's best translated humanity.
Speaker 1: So where Adam is being directly addressed as a person
Speaker 1: in other passages, they take that same Hebrew word.
Speaker 1: And make it the personal name Adam in this case,
Speaker 1: because it's better translated as humanity versus just a single man.
Speaker 1: I think that's why we could also say this passage
Speaker 1: is about who we are as a creation together, not
Speaker 1: just the one person.
Speaker 1: Adam. Bobby, 45 seconds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, how about James 3:9 with our tongue,
Speaker 1: we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we
Speaker 1: curse people who are made in the image of God
Speaker 1: or made in the likeness of God. That's a good one.
Speaker 1: I feel that's where I where I wanted our caller
Speaker 1: to listen for a moment. He was very declarative about this,
Speaker 1: and I'm sitting here thinking of verses post that, that
Speaker 1: it's really important that, you know, we, we.
Speaker 1: Recognize the rest of scripture if we're going to be
Speaker 1: declaredative about something. So yeah, Genesis 9:6 is the passage, um,
Speaker 1: that I was referring to. Bobby, you had the James passage, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Good stuff. Very good stuff, I would say. Thanks, Dan.
Speaker 1: Hope that gave you, uh, a different perspective, to think about.
Speaker 1: Thanks for calling in today, and we are out of time.
Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow. Dave Keen from Biola University, thank
Speaker 1: you for joining us again. My pleasure. Hope to see
Speaker 1: you again soon. You can find out more about Dave
Speaker 1: and Biola at biola.e.
Speaker 1: Brian Broderson, he'll be back tomorrow. So will Bobby Conway,
Speaker 1: and we hope you will be too. We're going to
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Speaker 1: you here on Pastor's Perspective. Good night. God bless.