Speaker 1: Hey, hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Brian Perez. It is Thursday, the 12th of June, and
Speaker 1: we're going to be here till 4 o'clock today to
Speaker 1: answer the questions you have about the Bible, the Christian faith,
Speaker 1: just about anything that's on your mind. Grab an open
Speaker 1: line right now. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. You can also send
Speaker 1: in your questions online.
Speaker 1: We've got the Pastor's Perspective Facebook Messenger. You can DM
Speaker 1: us on the Pastor's Perspective Instagram. If you're watching us
Speaker 1: on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram, you probably see a QR
Speaker 1: code there near the bottom corner somewhere there. You can
Speaker 1: zap that, and that'll take you to the page on Kwave.com,
Speaker 1: where you can send in your questions, but we prefer
Speaker 1: to talk to you, so call in if you can.
Speaker 1: At 888-564-6173. And answering your questions today, we've got Pastor
Speaker 1: Brian Broderson from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. How are you doing, Brian?
Speaker 1: Well, Brian
Speaker 1: How am I doing? I'm doing, I asked you. Yeah, I, I'm,
Speaker 1: I'm doing fine. I'm I'm doing great. I, uh, on
Speaker 1: my little jog this morning, I kind of tweaked my hip,
Speaker 1: so I'm feeling like an old person right now hobbling along,
Speaker 1: but apart from that, I'm just doing great. Good. Glad to,
Speaker 1: glad to hear that. Glad to have you here. And
Speaker 1: joining us on the phone.
Speaker 1: Cause we have wonders of modern technology, but they're not
Speaker 1: being very wonderful today apparently. So we've got to get
Speaker 1: Phil Metzger on the phone. Phil's the pastor of Calvary
Speaker 1: San Diego. How you doing, Phil?
Speaker 1: Hey guys, I'm doing good. You know, it's, it's, I'm
Speaker 1: so disappointed because today I'm in my tuxedo and you
Speaker 1: don't get to see it. Wait, what do you say?
Speaker 1: Are you really in a tuxedo? What are you doing
Speaker 1: in a tuxedo? No, I'm absolutely not in a tuxedo, OK.
Speaker 1: I'm just in a t-shirt, guys. Sorry, it's not very exciting,
Speaker 1: but I thought it would be fun. So yeah, you
Speaker 1: could send us a selfie. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1: I will. Well, I was, you know, looking forward to
Speaker 1: seeing your mug, as Bobby would call it, but, uh,
Speaker 1: but you're not there. And Bobby, on our screens invisible too.
Speaker 1: You are the invisible man. There is a chair, but
Speaker 1: there is not a human in it. But yet, but
Speaker 1: yet we are hearing your voice.
Speaker 2: Me,
Speaker 1: you, you can take a picture and show you what.
Speaker 1: Oh
Speaker 2: wait, I'm looking at that too, and I'm noticing that
Speaker 1: like.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm, I'm here and not here I guess at
Speaker 2: the same token, um, maybe I'm experiencing an out of
Speaker 2: body kind of situation looking at where I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 2: This is odd. It's,
Speaker 1: uh, it's his spirit, perhaps it's his spirit, they said.
Speaker 1: Disembodied Bobby.
Speaker 2: Yes, I definitely, I can see myself, but you can't
Speaker 2: see me.
Speaker 1: Wow, that sounds like a line straight from the invisible Man. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1: Way interesting. OK, well, even though we can't see two
Speaker 1: of the guys, uh, we are here, so give us
Speaker 1: a call at 888-564-6173. Here's a question that was sent
Speaker 1: in online. Wait, before we get to that, let's talk
Speaker 1: about the the conference that's coming up in a few weeks.
Speaker 1: We always do it near the bottom at about the
Speaker 1: 3:30 break and therefore, anybody who's listening at the beginning
Speaker 1: of the program may not have heard us talk about this.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about, well, let's talk about the
Speaker 1: CGN International Conference that's coming up the 22nd through the
Speaker 1: 25th of this month, and I cannot believe that it's
Speaker 1: just 10 days away, and we are super excited about this,
Speaker 1: looking forward to a great time. It's a ministry conference,
Speaker 1: so it's open to um people in um a variety
Speaker 1: of of ministries in your, your churches, of course, pastors
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: Um, but youth workers and worship leaders and children's ministry
Speaker 1: people and, um, yeah, we're just looking forward to a
Speaker 1: great time. We're gonna be looking at those wonderful chapters
Speaker 1: in the Gospel of John, chapters 13 through 17, where
Speaker 1: we have that intimate time with Jesus in the upper
Speaker 1: room with his disciples and the instruction that he gives
Speaker 1: us there, we're looking at, um,
Speaker 1: The way forward ministry according to Jesus and we've got
Speaker 1: great workshops, we've got great main sessions. Alistair Begg is
Speaker 1: going to be sort of our, you know, in some ways,
Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's our, uh, kind of globally known, uh, speaker,
Speaker 1: but the rest of the guys are gonna do a
Speaker 1: fantastic job as well. So, um, yeah, come on out,
Speaker 1: you can.
Speaker 1: Get all the details. You can look at the great
Speaker 1: website and see all the pictures of everybody. Uh, you
Speaker 1: can find that at conference. Calvary Chapel.com and you can
Speaker 1: get registered there as well. So, coming out, we'd love
Speaker 1: to see you. It's 10 days away. You better sign
Speaker 1: up today, conference. Calvary Chapel.com. All right, here's a question
Speaker 1: that was sent in on the pastor's perspective Facebook Messenger.
Speaker 1: It's from Roger. My friend only listens to preachers who
Speaker 1: say things that he wants to hear.
Speaker 1: That God will give him a long life. Bless him materially.
Speaker 1: We give him supernatural gifts like performing miracles, healing, and prophecy.
Speaker 1: For 20 years, these beliefs have hurt him relationally, emotionally,
Speaker 1: and financially because they haven't come true. But he continues
Speaker 1: to want these things. I'm praying for him. I've read
Speaker 1: the Bible with him to expose erroneous beliefs, and I've
Speaker 1: showed the Holy Spirit decides what spiritual gifts to give,
Speaker 1: but he isn't receptive. Do you have any suggestions?
Speaker 1: Phil Metzger.
Speaker 1: Um, well, I mean, you know, in my flesh, I
Speaker 1: totally agree with the guy. I only want to get
Speaker 1: to say things that I agree with too. Um, I wish, I,
Speaker 1: you know, I wish that was like kind of how
Speaker 1: things worked, you know, and, um, so, you know, what
Speaker 1: I would, I, I would probably take him into maybe
Speaker 1: 1 John chapter 2.
Speaker 1: And maybe talk about the, um, the lust of the flesh,
Speaker 1: the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, and, and,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe describing how, hey, listen, there's, there's like,
Speaker 1: there's things that we all want. It's like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: want that, you know, I want to eat a bag
Speaker 1: of sweets all the time. But what I want, and
Speaker 1: then what God wants for me.
Speaker 1: Aren't always in alignment. And, and what I want may
Speaker 1: not be evil necessarily or like immoral only. It might
Speaker 1: just be that I'm, you know, if my flesh is
Speaker 1: competing for the throne of my life over God, there's
Speaker 1: a problem. And so when we're, when we're only wanting
Speaker 1: to hear the things that are feeding what we feel,
Speaker 1: what we want, what we think, we're missing this much
Speaker 1: broader array of what God wants, what God thinks, and
Speaker 1: what God feels. Sometimes those align.
Speaker 1: Quite often, at times they just don't. And when that doesn't,
Speaker 1: when they don't align, I have to make a choice.
Speaker 1: Am I going to follow God or my own will,
Speaker 1: my own way? So, um, I, I get the guy's dilemma.
Speaker 1: Who doesn't face that? But when you just keep giving
Speaker 1: into that thinking and that kind of like giving into
Speaker 1: your flesh, your own desires, your own thought process, it
Speaker 1: becomes a really destructive pattern, and it, it, the only
Speaker 1: way it can be broken is by surrender to the, to,
Speaker 1: to Jesus. Pastor Brian.
Speaker 1: That's, that's a great feeling, you know, I was, um,
Speaker 1: reading through First Timothy the other morning and this passage
Speaker 1: once again, uh, stood out where he, Paul is speaking
Speaker 1: to Timothy and he's talking about those who suppose that
Speaker 1: godliness is a means of gain and that's essentially what
Speaker 1: is being described here, right? If, you know, I want
Speaker 1: to hear those messages that I'm gonna.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be financially prospering and I'm gonna have a
Speaker 1: long life, life and a healthy life, and so forth. Well,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what Paul is warning about. He says that
Speaker 1: those who uh have that message, he actually says that
Speaker 1: they are, um,
Speaker 1: They, they are, uh, what, what does he say? Useless
Speaker 1: wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth.
Speaker 1: So guys who are preaching that prosperity gospel, Paul had
Speaker 1: some pretty stern words to say about that. But then
Speaker 1: he goes on and he says, now, um, well, he says,
Speaker 1: he says, from such people withdraw yourself.
Speaker 1: And then he says, now godliness with contentment is great gain,
Speaker 1: for we brought nothing into this world, it is certain
Speaker 1: we can carry nothing out. and having food and clothing
Speaker 1: with these, we shall be content. And then he goes on,
Speaker 1: but those who desire to be rich fall into temptation
Speaker 1: and a
Speaker 1: Snare or a trap and into many foolish and harmful
Speaker 1: lust which drown people in destruction and perdition, for the
Speaker 1: love of money is a root of all kinds of
Speaker 1: evil for which some have strayed from the faith in
Speaker 1: their greediness and pierced themselves through with many sorrows, so.
Speaker 1: If you haven't shown him that passage, that's the passage
Speaker 1: to take him to. And if he doesn't listen to that,
Speaker 1: you know, what can you do?
Speaker 1: Roger, thank you for sending in your question on the
Speaker 1: pastor's perspective Facebook messenger. Let's go to the phones now,
Speaker 1: and uh 888-564-6173 is our number. We'll start with Sean
Speaker 1: in Rancho Santa Margaritas. It's got a question for Bobby.
Speaker 1: Hey there, Sean, go ahead.
Speaker 1: Hey how are you guys? Doing great, thanks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't really for Bobby, but he made a, uh,
Speaker 1: you guys were discussing the authenticity of the resurrection yesterday,
Speaker 1: and he, I think I heard Bobby say there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of evidence and he mentioned the shroud of Turin,
Speaker 1: if I'm pronouncing it right, and, uh, I saw a
Speaker 1: clip on one of the pastors on that I follow, um,
Speaker 1: and they mentioned that that, that isn't accurate because
Speaker 1: His the hair, his hair wouldn't have been that way
Speaker 1: in those days of being a Jew or whatnot. And
Speaker 1: also he mentioned he was, according to the Bible, he
Speaker 1: was just, he was unrecognizable and his beard was plucked,
Speaker 1: yet that shroud of to seems like it's a perfectly
Speaker 1: Pictured, uh, like almost like a portrait, and I'm just curious,
Speaker 1: do you, do, do we believe that is
Speaker 1: part of the evidence of the resurrection. Bobby Conway.
Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly proof of, uh, somebody's death, uh, whether
Speaker 2: or not you want to, uh, claim that it is, um,
Speaker 2: Jesus that was wrapped in that cloth, um, it, it
Speaker 2: would be just kind of up to us to look
Speaker 2: at the research that's there. Um, I've never personally done
Speaker 2: a deep dive on the shroud. Uh, my, um,
Speaker 2: Understanding is more limited to asking questions, uh, from people
Speaker 2: like having the privilege of interviewing Gary Habermass on the topic,
Speaker 2: and he is certainly an expert on all things resurrection
Speaker 2: and the death of Christ. And I have listened to
Speaker 2: some pretty compelling podcasts. Um, I've heard a presentation given.
Speaker 2: Um, on it, uh, so you take, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: 3 hours maybe of investment on this topic. Uh, it's
Speaker 2: hard for me to, you know, know with certainty, but
Speaker 2: what I appreciate is, um, where, um,
Speaker 2: The, the, the dating number 1 is phenomenal, um, but #2, um,
Speaker 2: it corresponds to the, the type of wounds that he experienced.
Speaker 2: It shows that it would have been a crucifixified victim.
Speaker 2: It shows um that the where the crown of thorns
Speaker 2: are and where the blood would spill. So those are
Speaker 2: some interesting points of evidence, but I don't think I
Speaker 2: could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Speaker 2: Uh, what you're bringing up, uh, for, um, contesting it,
Speaker 2: I would just say perhaps look into the work of
Speaker 2: somebody like Gary Havermass and see what he's written on it.
Speaker 1: Brian
Speaker 1: Um, yeah, I, I, I, I agree, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's been back and forths with the shroud. There, there
Speaker 1: have been those moments where people have said, oh, this
Speaker 1: is absolutely the burial cloth of Jesus, and then others
Speaker 1: at times have said, oh no, you know, this is
Speaker 1: a forgery from the 12th century or something like that, um,
Speaker 1: but the more that they have done, uh, testing on
Speaker 1: The cloth itself, the more they've become convinced that it
Speaker 1: is at least um.
Speaker 1: It, it dates back to the, the time of Jesus,
Speaker 1: and they're hard pressed to explain the uh the image
Speaker 1: that's imprinted on it. It seems like it could only
Speaker 1: have happened through uh just an absolute flash of like
Speaker 1: brilliant light, like lightning or something like that. And Gary Habermass,
Speaker 1: I think, um, most people would agree.
Speaker 1: That he's a serious scholar. He's not a person that's
Speaker 1: given to sensationalism. So when he takes it seriously, I
Speaker 1: think we should um we should at least take it seriously.
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know that we necessarily
Speaker 1: You know, no nobody says we have to believe it,
Speaker 1: but I think, wow, you know, this, this guy's done
Speaker 1: a ton of research and he thinks it's legit, so
Speaker 1: maybe it is, don't know. Phil Metzger, any thoughts from you?
Speaker 1: No, I have absolutely no, no thoughts on that. Uh,
Speaker 1: I saw it once. That's the extent of my knowledge, but, uh, nope.
Speaker 1: Did you see the actual shrout?
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Turin, yeah, it was on tour and I can't,
Speaker 1: I was trying to remember this whole time you guys
Speaker 1: were talking, I was like, where did I, where was I?
Speaker 1: The actual shroud. It was cool. Amazing to see it.
Speaker 1: But like, listen, Bobby spent 3 hours and still doesn't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable. I saw it for like 3 minutes, so
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna make a pilgrimage to Turin myself, and
Speaker 1: then I'll let you know what I think when I
Speaker 1: get back because,
Speaker 2: uh, you know, when you hear, um, so my, I
Speaker 2: think it's great that you're calling up and even asking
Speaker 2: because
Speaker 2: Um, you know, the last thing I'd want to do
Speaker 2: is send a bunch of people to be, you know,
Speaker 2: zealots for any one topic that I taught based on
Speaker 2: one talk. Uh, I want them to be able to
Speaker 2: test it out, to learn to be good students, and, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I think it is intriguing. It, it would,
Speaker 2: it's pretty cool, but that's what I think. If it's
Speaker 2: a really genuine artifact, I mean, my goodness, uh, that's
Speaker 2: just pretty special that we have that.
Speaker 2: And so I don't want to dismiss that lightly, giving
Speaker 2: the type of scholarship that's validating this. If it was just,
Speaker 2: you know, if it was Benny Hinn running around on
Speaker 2: the stage with, you know, uh, you know, a facsimile
Speaker 2: of it, I would, I probably wouldn't believe it even
Speaker 2: if the evidence was good just because everything that guy
Speaker 2: says he makes me nervous in the way that he
Speaker 2: says it. So what about,
Speaker 1: what about those dancing preachers that
Speaker 1: Often send you on, uh, Instagram. Yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah, so for the listeners, uh, Brian and I have
Speaker 2: this great, uh, relational building, uh, deal on Instagram whenever
Speaker 2: he comes across like the dancing services or people running
Speaker 2: around and jumping. I, I told him we need to
Speaker 2: go on a bonding trip to one of those and just,
Speaker 2: you know, picture Pastor Brian getting out of his zen
Speaker 2: and just doing a little bit of stage dancing with
Speaker 2: the preacher would be quite the same.
Speaker 1: Yes, can't wait, can't wait for that, that road trip
Speaker 1: that's coming up. Um, I just want to say one
Speaker 1: last thing about, um, well, let's ask Sean. Sean, was that,
Speaker 1: was that helpful?
Speaker 1: Yes, I would just say from a student perspective, if,
Speaker 1: if I could call myself that, and we, all you
Speaker 1: guys do, you always base things on the Bible. You
Speaker 1: go to the scripture. So, if I'm going to the
Speaker 1: scripture and it says he was unrecognizable and they pulled
Speaker 1: his beard out, and then I go to the tour
Speaker 1: in Shroud, it does not look like that. I'm basing
Speaker 1: this strictly off of, of, of, well, how you guys think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that I think those, you know, those,
Speaker 1: those are good points. I mean, it, you know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't tell us the extent to which his beard, um,
Speaker 1: he's just, it's just, you know, a passage in Isaiah
Speaker 1: where he says that I, um, did not turn away
Speaker 1: from those who plucked out my beard, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: give us an an actual picture of the of the
Speaker 1: extent of that. Um, Isaiah also is the one who
Speaker 1: says that his visage was marred.
Speaker 1: Um, more than any person, and so yeah, it it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem impossible. And, and let me, let me just
Speaker 1: say this before I say this part. Um, I, I
Speaker 1: tend to be skeptical about it. I have my own
Speaker 1: reasons why I just kind of, uh, you know, if
Speaker 1: it is great, if I, I'm not putting any, I'm
Speaker 1: not banking on it at all, but, um, but going
Speaker 1: back to
Speaker 1: Answering the, the marred visage, um, I mean, of course,
Speaker 1: they would have done their best to clean up, um,
Speaker 1: Jesus before they wrapped him in the burial cloth, so
Speaker 1: the blood and everything else would have, would have been
Speaker 1: all cleaned up. So maybe that explains it too, but, um,
Speaker 1: but again, I'm, you know, my questions are more like, well,
Speaker 1: So this appeared, what is it? 12th century, I think
Speaker 1: is is where it first shows up in history, something
Speaker 1: like that. Um, and I think, well, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the fact that there's not really any reference to it
Speaker 1: anywhere earlier seems like there, if this was the real deal.
Speaker 1: It seems like there might have been some earlier reference
Speaker 1: to it, and then also,
Speaker 1: God Himself, I think back to the Old Testament, I
Speaker 1: think of the um
Speaker 1: The uh bronze serpent.
Speaker 1: And remember, Moses was instructed by God to make that
Speaker 1: bronze serpent, to elevate it among the people who were
Speaker 1: um bit by these poisonous snakes, and then once they,
Speaker 1: if they looked to the bronze serpent, they would be healed. Well, that,
Speaker 1: that bronze serpent was kept by the children of Israel.
Speaker 1: It came down in their history, and it was with
Speaker 1: them during the time of the prophet Isaiah.
Speaker 1: And they were idolizing it. They were worshiping it in
Speaker 1: some way. Oh, the bronze serpent, the bronze serpent, and,
Speaker 1: and the prophet said it's a, it's a thing of,
Speaker 1: or the king actually said it's a thing of brass,
Speaker 1: and he took it and he broke it. And so
Speaker 1: there is this tendency to take relics, we know that
Speaker 1: this has happened over and over again, especially in the
Speaker 1: medieval church, um, to take relics and then to
Speaker 1: Uh, sort of worship through them or something like that, so.
Speaker 1: Since something like the shroud would have that kind of
Speaker 1: a tendency to lead people into a weird sort of
Speaker 1: idolatry over this piece of cloth, that also makes me
Speaker 1: question whether God would, you know, allow something to happen
Speaker 1: like that, that this kind of thing could develop around.
Speaker 1: So Bobby.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the point you brought up, Brian, even
Speaker 2: about the beard, I think was, was good because it's
Speaker 2: sometimes you think, oh, like every single hair would have
Speaker 2: been plucked out of his face. I mean, if, if
Speaker 2: they pulled his beard, I mean, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: he still wouldn't have had some beard left. It's not
Speaker 2: like they were taking the time to get every single
Speaker 2: uh hair uh follicle out of his skin. So that
Speaker 2: that's not a real issue for me there. I mean,
Speaker 2: the type of things that
Speaker 2: are compelling is when you consider, you know, they're using
Speaker 2: like a first century style of weaving, um, that, that
Speaker 2: or the type of weaving that they would use for garments, um,
Speaker 2: is in concert with what you would see in the
Speaker 2: first century. Um, it, it perfectly depicts a Roman crucifixion victim, um,
Speaker 2: that has been laid out. Um, you have real blood, so,
Speaker 2: you know, it's not been painted.
Speaker 2: On there, so I think that that can be helpful. It, it,
Speaker 2: it's got pollen, um, remnants that they've detected from Jerusalem.
Speaker 2: So you take a Roman crucifixion, uh, pollen, uh, the
Speaker 2: blood stains, uh, the staining, uh, because even though they
Speaker 2: had cleaned him up, he would have continued, um, bleeding.
Speaker 2: Uh, as well, uh, and, uh, it seems like that
Speaker 2: that it fits in line with the spear in the side,
Speaker 2: the crown of thorns on the head, and so you
Speaker 2: put some of that stuff together, it's enough to cause
Speaker 2: us to say, OK, that's pretty
Speaker 1: intriguing. Interesting, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was only partially joking about my pilgrimage
Speaker 1: to Turin because we have a Calvary Chapel church in Turin. OK, yes,
Speaker 1: and my good friends David and Danae, Das are there
Speaker 1: leading that church and so.
Speaker 1: I have a plan to go visit them and, um,
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll go by and the the the cathedral
Speaker 1: there and you know, who knows. We could just make
Speaker 1: it a pastor's perspective trip to Turin and all of
Speaker 1: our listeners. When I get there, I will call in
Speaker 1: and I'll let you know. Oh perfect
Speaker 1: or
Speaker 1: not reporting right on the spot. Yes, that'll work.
Speaker 1: All right, 888-564-6173 is our number, and now we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk to Sandra in Orange County, California. Welcome to Pastor's perspective, Sandra.
Speaker 1: Hi, thank you for taking my call. Yeah, what's going on?
Speaker 1: How can we help you today?
Speaker 1: So, I have, uh, on my fam on my husband's side,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of uh
Speaker 1: Immigrants, um, that came over. So right now, considering all
Speaker 1: the things that are going on, I'm getting a lot
Speaker 1: of backlash because of I supported my decision for the
Speaker 1: current president.
Speaker 1: Um, they know I'm a, a follower of Christ, so
Speaker 1: now I'm getting a lot of backlash, uh, because of
Speaker 1: my support and sending me videos of what's going on
Speaker 1: and saying how can you call yourself a follower of Christ,
Speaker 1: seeing all this happening and why are you so heartless
Speaker 1: and so on and excuse me, and then uh asking
Speaker 1: me what would Jesus do?
Speaker 1: You know, and all this sad comments. So I'm calling
Speaker 1: to see your perspective and if you can give me
Speaker 1: some scriptures that I can
Speaker 1: Either read, uh, and if you have anything on why
Speaker 1: we have borders, is there anything in the Bible in
Speaker 1: regards to that. Mhm. OK. Phil Metzger, what would you
Speaker 1: say to Sandra?
Speaker 1: Um, boy, boy, oh boy, oh boy, lots to say
Speaker 1: on that, um, and then choosing words carefully, just because
Speaker 1: these things are
Speaker 1: It kind of, um, you know, whenever there's a topic
Speaker 1: that then like kind of hits a touch point of politics.
Speaker 1: It becomes a very binary, like people see it as
Speaker 1: one way or the other. And I think as Christians,
Speaker 1: we just need to like not like we're not to
Speaker 1: be like swayed by
Speaker 1: You know, like, you know, you voting for the current
Speaker 1: president doesn't mean everything that he does you think is
Speaker 1: like amazing, vice versa. Just because somebody didn't doesn't mean
Speaker 1: everything they think is bad. But that's kind of the
Speaker 1: context that we live in right now. That's not a
Speaker 1: very healthy, that's not a very healthy environment. And so,
Speaker 1: but we're not going to change that. You and me
Speaker 1: talking on the
Speaker 1: Phone or on through the radio aren't going to fix that, right?
Speaker 1: And so that's just a part of it. But I
Speaker 1: think it is like a good kind of a reminder
Speaker 1: of like, we, you know, we as Christians, regardless of, like,
Speaker 1: you know, political sway, we want to, like, you know,
Speaker 1: we take very seriously what the Bible says, like, love
Speaker 1: the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul,
Speaker 1: and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: I think, I think for me, and again, all the,
Speaker 1: the other guys can talk about this maybe from different
Speaker 1: angles cause there's so many different angles we could talk about.
Speaker 1: I would simply say, whilst I'm, uh, you know, my,
Speaker 1: my kind of center would be, we're in a situation
Speaker 1: where like, you know, as a Christian, I'm, I'm still,
Speaker 1: you know, primarily focused just on like, how do I
Speaker 1: serve the people that God brings into my life. I
Speaker 1: um
Speaker 1: You know, whether they're, you know, like I'm not looking
Speaker 1: for people's like passports or immigration status to love them
Speaker 1: as Christ loves me, so I'm not thinking of it
Speaker 1: in those terms. I get that those are issues, but
Speaker 1: it's sad that it's kind of really separating people and yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm personally like I think it's shameful the way
Speaker 1: things are being handled, but that's a personal opinion, not
Speaker 1: a biblical one.
Speaker 1: Brian, uh, Sandra, when you said about your, your husband's
Speaker 1: family and, um, immigrants, did.
Speaker 1: Are they uh supporting illegal immigration? Is that what they're,
Speaker 1: they're saying should be the case and actually borders are
Speaker 1: are wrong and not Christian? Is that what they're implying?
Speaker 1: Yes, and that they do the majority of the work
Speaker 1: here in our country.
Speaker 1: Mm. The heavy labor, of course, uh stolen land and yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: all of the, yeah, all the rhetoric that is right
Speaker 1: now very, it's all very, very heated. Um, yeah, and
Speaker 1: that that's quite difficult, I think, um, but you know,
Speaker 1: Phil lives uh just
Speaker 1: A stone's throw away from the Mexican border. And if
Speaker 1: he's gonna go to Mexico, he's gonna have to pass
Speaker 1: through the border, and he's gonna have to be allowed
Speaker 1: into Mexico.
Speaker 1: Uh, by the border, uh, you know, by the Mexican government,
Speaker 1: and there's not a country in the world that you're
Speaker 1: gonna go to and you're not gonna have a border
Speaker 1: that you're gonna have to cross at some point. So
Speaker 1: the idea that we should just suddenly decide like, oh,
Speaker 1: we don't, we don't want borders anymore, we don't need
Speaker 1: borders anymore, that, that's ludicrous, um, and it's just, it's
Speaker 1: an idea that comes from such a weird.
Speaker 1: Perspective on reality that I think we just have to
Speaker 1: kind of persevere through it. It's there's hardly anybody that I,
Speaker 1: I would think you could reason with on this stuff
Speaker 1: because it's so, it's so highly emotional. Um, the Bible,
Speaker 1: you ask for something biblical about borders. Well, God, um,
Speaker 1: he set the boundaries for the nation of Israel, and
Speaker 1: he made it very clear, these, these are the borders
Speaker 1: right here. And then he also, um,
Speaker 1: divided the land up among the various tribes, and there
Speaker 1: were borders that separated one tribe from another. So, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no passage in the, in the scripture
Speaker 1: that says, OK, go set up a border, but God
Speaker 1: does it himself, and it, it sort of sets a model,
Speaker 1: you know, for us, and, and then again, most nations
Speaker 1: throughout history have done this very thing. Um, so,
Speaker 1: You know, and the, and the lines are so blurred
Speaker 1: in the stuff that I hear, the lines are so
Speaker 1: blurred between legal and illegal immigration. So if, if you
Speaker 1: say that no, people need to come legally, then you're
Speaker 1: against immigration. Well, you know, you're not against immigration, you
Speaker 1: just think that they, people should go through a process.
Speaker 1: Now granted, politically, our previous um administration.
Speaker 1: Just sort of, you know, threw all of that to
Speaker 1: the wind and, and allowed millions of people to come
Speaker 1: into the country illegally and that's an unfortunate, uh, situation. I,
Speaker 1: I do think the other side and the difficulty is that.
Speaker 1: There, there does seem to be in many cases, um,
Speaker 1: a real lack of wisdom.
Speaker 1: When it comes to how to carry out the deportations,
Speaker 1: and I think in some cases it's just completely wrong
Speaker 1: and they they need to go back to the drawing
Speaker 1: board and say we're not going to go into an
Speaker 1: elementary school and take out a, uh, you know, a
Speaker 1: kid to get their parents or, you know, those kinds
Speaker 1: of things, I think, oh God help us, you know,
Speaker 1: it is, it is really tough.
Speaker 1: We'll see what Bobby Conway has to say, if anything,
Speaker 1: when we come back from the break here on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173.
Speaker 1: Hey, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number
Speaker 1: to call if you want to ask Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway,
Speaker 1: or Phil Metzger a question. Again, that's 888-564-6173. Right before
Speaker 1: the break we were talking to Sandra about the, uh,
Speaker 1: border situation. We heard from Phil, we heard from Brian. Bobby,
Speaker 1: I don't know, did you want to chime in on this?
Speaker 2: No, I, I just a hint, I think what the
Speaker 2: guy shared was great. Um, Brian, uh, dropped into the
Speaker 2: area that I was gonna pick up on with borders, uh,
Speaker 2: in the Bible, but I would say, um,
Speaker 2: It's
Speaker 2: Almost astounding to me, uh, on a couple levels when
Speaker 2: you think about, so sometimes people go back to how,
Speaker 2: oh maybe our country got off the wrong way. Well,
Speaker 2: let's just say it was, it was horrible what happened
Speaker 2: to some of the natives, but
Speaker 2: That at the end of the day, you don't keep
Speaker 2: screwing up because people screwed up in the way that
Speaker 2: they have dealt with the land, right? Like, it it,
Speaker 2: so if there was land that was taken away or whatever,
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that generation after generation can't have a
Speaker 2: process because of the way that, you know, it originated. Uh,
Speaker 2: that would, that would be a wrong way of thinking.
Speaker 2: Uh, not only that, um, as Brian said, uh, if
Speaker 2: you go to Mexico, you're gonna get stopped. Like you
Speaker 2: can't go anywhere in the world and just expect that
Speaker 2: you can drop in. And not only that, on top
Speaker 2: of that, you got to think about um
Speaker 2: Even schools, like all the things in our country, the expectations,
Speaker 2: like there's expectations if you wanna work in certain places,
Speaker 2: if you wanna play on a certain team, if you
Speaker 2: wanna go to a university.
Speaker 2: So why in the world would we see it as
Speaker 2: a problem or exclusivistic that we're making sure that people
Speaker 2: share our values? Now, I get it, like the process
Speaker 2: seems to be uh uh on getting people out there
Speaker 2: that I'm not validating that that that's going right, nor
Speaker 2: am I saying that the process of legal immigration is smooth.
Speaker 2: It takes a long time. I think there's a lot
Speaker 2: of work to be done on how people can come
Speaker 2: in quicker who really share and how people can go
Speaker 2: out in a better fashion.
Speaker 2: But the argument should never be about uh just opening
Speaker 2: the borders and never even having conversations because this stuff's
Speaker 2: gonna change the worldview of our entire culture and we
Speaker 2: should be guardians of our vision. It's like in our home,
Speaker 2: but everything we do, we think about like the types
Speaker 2: of people that we would share with and there are
Speaker 2: some viewpoints, and if you're gonna come into our country
Speaker 2: and start burning down our flag,
Speaker 2: Uh, that's a problem, and I personally would be when
Speaker 2: I watch the news and people burning the American flag.
Speaker 2: I think that that should, shouldn't be messed around with.
Speaker 2: I mean, if I was the president and I saw
Speaker 2: people out burning our flag, I mean, I would act
Speaker 2: swiftly on something like that. That's a problem. Uh, and we're,
Speaker 2: and another thing that's a problem is, you know, when
Speaker 2: I was a kid, I used to see, like, watch
Speaker 2: the news with Beirut and see them burning stuff down,
Speaker 2: and I thought, man, I'm so thankful I don't live
Speaker 2: in the Middle East. This stuff looks crazy. And now
Speaker 2: it feels like I'm watching in our own country.
Speaker 2: This crazy violence, uh, in our animalistic behavior and so
Speaker 2: far from evolving, I mean, there's something really broken right
Speaker 2: now in our country.
Speaker 1: Brian.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I, I think, um.
Speaker 1: And, and you know, I, I mean, there's so much,
Speaker 1: I think, uh, you know, propaganda. I mean, it's clear
Speaker 1: that like with the riots and you know, the riots,
Speaker 1: I mean, I saw some people peacefully protesting and I thought, well, good,
Speaker 1: that that is the way to protest and it and
Speaker 1: it was, it was, you know.
Speaker 1: They were expressive, but they weren't violent, and this is
Speaker 1: the problem. And, but yet we know for sure that
Speaker 1: it's these agitators. It's the same people that destroyed Portland.
Speaker 1: It's the same people that set up their little communist
Speaker 1: world in Seattle, you know, it's it's the same group
Speaker 1: of people that kind of just go around. They're agitators,
Speaker 1: they're professional, they're paid, and they do this, they burn down,
Speaker 1: they burn cars on the street, they burn down buildings,
Speaker 1: they loot stores and things like that.
Speaker 1: So, I mean that in and of itself is an
Speaker 1: indication that, you know, there's something really wrong on on
Speaker 1: one side of this. But like I said a minute ago,
Speaker 1: I do think, and I, and, you know, I had
Speaker 1: a conversation with somebody the other day and we were
Speaker 1: praying about this, that, you know, just praying that the,
Speaker 1: the um
Speaker 1: You know, ICE and, and the DOJ and, you know, whoever,
Speaker 1: Homeland Security and, and all of those people. Lord, just
Speaker 1: give wisdom, you know, is there somebody that could kind
Speaker 1: of just have the voice of wisdom to say like, OK,
Speaker 1: this is how we're going to navigate this. And it's, it's,
Speaker 1: it's almost like a between a rock and a hard
Speaker 1: place because there's just always gonna be people that are opposed,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 1: But, but if there's somebody that had the kind of
Speaker 1: wisdom to say, like, hey, no, we're not gonna do this. We're,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna, you know, if, if we're looking for
Speaker 1: the uncle that's gonna attend a graduation ceremony, and we
Speaker 1: know he's going to be there, so we're gonna bust him. No,
Speaker 1: we're gonna not bust him at the graduation ceremony. We're
Speaker 1: gonna actually have to work it out to find a
Speaker 1: way to get him into, you know, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just like common sense. It's like you're, you're, you know,
Speaker 1: You're scaring people to death, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are not even illegally here, but because they're Latino.
Speaker 1: Uh, they're walking around thinking, am I gonna get swept
Speaker 1: up and
Speaker 1: Locked up just because I'm not white.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's real. I just realized my
Speaker 1: last name is Perez. Your last name is Perez. Oh no,
Speaker 1: but you know what? I have, it's weird because I
Speaker 1: have not been thinking at all the last, oh, they're
Speaker 1: gonna come get me. I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I have no fear of that, but I
Speaker 1: know that there are people, there are people that do, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I know people that that do that that are
Speaker 1: like that. And so, um, so that's, we, there has
Speaker 1: to be some kind of sensitiveivity to that, but you
Speaker 1: know that we're talking about government and government isn't known
Speaker 1: for um
Speaker 1: Sensitivity and all of that sort of stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: especially in the midst of the chaos that we have
Speaker 1: going right now. So Sandra, I don't even know, are
Speaker 1: we helping you at all? Are we, I mean, you're,
Speaker 1: you're really in a tough situation.
Speaker 1: Yes. OK, thank you.
Speaker 1: Did that help a bit?
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for all your
Speaker 1: Your wisdom. OK. OK. And Lord, we pray for Sandra,
Speaker 1: we just pray that.
Speaker 1: In this heated situation with her family, um, just help her. Lord,
Speaker 1: it's not easy to be on the, the receiving end
Speaker 1: of that, that kind of, um,
Speaker 1: Anger and, and all of that. So just give her grace,
Speaker 1: be with her. And Lord, as people are equating this
Speaker 1: with um
Speaker 1: Oh, this is what Christians believe, or the church is
Speaker 1: teaching this or or any of that stuff, Lord, just help,
Speaker 1: we pray and um.
Speaker 1: It's perplexing times and we pray for wisdom, and we
Speaker 1: pray for, you know, the processes, and we pray that
Speaker 1: you would give people in in power and leadership, give
Speaker 1: them wisdom on how to navigate this in a way
Speaker 1: that would be not dehumanizing, uh, but a way that
Speaker 1: would be right.
Speaker 1: In Jesus' name
Speaker 1: Amen. Amen. Sandra, thank you for calling us today here
Speaker 1: on Pastor's Perspective. And now let's go to Alexander and Crestline.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Alexander, for calling 888-564-6173.
Speaker 1: Hi, God bless you.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You too. Who was that? My, that was
Speaker 1: my 4 year old daughter, Lily. She said, I wanna
Speaker 1: say hi on the radio.
Speaker 1: Well, I had, I had to let her, let her
Speaker 1: know that she's, she's a celebrity now, everybody knows her now.
Speaker 1: Hey man. Keep, keep us in fair always for sure, um,
Speaker 1: but gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for taking the call. Uh, my question today, I, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna step outside. Uh, so my question today is, OK,
Speaker 1: let me preface this with a short story about a
Speaker 1: year ago I was, um, debating.
Speaker 1: Uh, gentlemanly, I was having a, a gentlemanly discussion with
Speaker 1: 1/7 Day Adventist with regards to annihilationism versus uh eternal
Speaker 1: conscious torment. And obviously, I was, I was supporting the
Speaker 1: latter because that's what I had always been taught.
Speaker 1: And he was making some good points, but I'm like, oh, dude, heretic,
Speaker 1: I'm about to go refute this guy's face off, so I,
Speaker 1: I get the word, and I was very surprised by
Speaker 1: the amount of destruction language, and I guess just, it
Speaker 1: was just, there was, there was an overwhelming.
Speaker 1: Basis of evidence that talked about the destruction of one's soul,
Speaker 1: never to be resurrected again, versus human beings actually suffering
Speaker 1: forever in, in some sort of eternal state of consciousness.
Speaker 1: And that was about a year ago. Honestly, I brought
Speaker 1: it up to a few friends, and, uh, kind of
Speaker 1: let it go. I'm just like, oh, that was interesting,
Speaker 1: but I didn't really hold on to it too tight.
Speaker 1: And just recently, a Bible teacher that I follow, he
Speaker 1: did a deep dive on the cultural context behind the
Speaker 1: immortal soul and
Speaker 1: And different things, and I'm just, I'm at this place
Speaker 1: where I'm just, I'm so thoroughly convinced of destruction of
Speaker 1: the unbelievers, uh, and I was just kind of wondering
Speaker 1: where you guys would come down on that and what
Speaker 1: verses you would use to support it.
Speaker 1: Bobby Conway, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I, I wouldn't, um, I certainly wouldn't be
Speaker 2: able to say that, uh, there's overwhelming evidence, um, while
Speaker 2: I do feel like there's evidence that should cause us
Speaker 2: to look at it, I do think that it is
Speaker 2: a view that I certainly would hope would be accurate, um,
Speaker 2: and I think there are verses, it's kind of like
Speaker 2: when you get into the Calvinism and Armenian discussion.
Speaker 2: You can see how people arrive in both places, uh,
Speaker 2: but just
Speaker 2: You know, if, if you're gonna be a person that
Speaker 2: holds to, uh, eternal conscience torment, then you have to
Speaker 2: be able to know how to reconcile the verses that
Speaker 2: talk about, uh, destruction, destroy, uh, you know, and then
Speaker 2: some people would say, you know, when he's talking about destruction,
Speaker 2: it's not like you're gonna mean, you know, not taking
Speaker 2: destruction is out of existence, uh, like if I stepped
Speaker 2: on a Coke can and I crushed the can,
Speaker 2: Uh, destroyed the can. The can doesn't go out of existence.
Speaker 2: The can was destroyed from operating out its original intent. So, uh,
Speaker 2: there's arguments that people will give that hold the eternal
Speaker 2: conscious torment, like the one I just did, to explain
Speaker 2: destruction doesn't mean to not exist, it just means destroyed
Speaker 2: from existing for the purpose for which you are meant
Speaker 2: to exist. And then when it comes to the annihilationists
Speaker 2: or somebody who holds to conditional.
Speaker 2: Immortality, they would say something like, well, the Bible uh
Speaker 2: uses these verses like you, you know, for being destroyed.
Speaker 2: Uh, and then they're gonna have to come up with arguments. Well,
Speaker 2: what about all the evidence that says, you know, gnashing
Speaker 2: of teeth forever and ever, or, you know, uh, you know, the, the,
Speaker 2: the sheep and the goats being separated, you know, the
Speaker 2: sheep going into eternal life, and then the goats going
Speaker 2: into eternal death. Well, the same Greek word for eternal,
Speaker 2: Ionian is used to refer to the goats. So if
Speaker 2: you're gonna say that.
Speaker 2: About that passage that it's referring to destruction, well, then
Speaker 2: how can we believe that our eternal life really means eternal?
Speaker 2: So I don't think it is as clear. I think
Speaker 2: that it gives me a hope, and I think that
Speaker 2: it's exciting to know that there's, I don't think that
Speaker 2: you're a heretic for holding that by any means. Uh,
Speaker 2: I've interviewed Chris Da, uh, who's a 5 point Calvinist,
Speaker 2: and he's written a lot of stuff on this, including
Speaker 2: his whole Rethinking Hell.
Speaker 2: Uh, so I would, uh, say I don't see people
Speaker 2: being outside of orthodoxy with that viewpoint, because there is
Speaker 2: a way that I think they're trying to be biblically faithful,
Speaker 2: but I don't think it's overwhelming to me, um, that
Speaker 2: Uh, that it just totally gets rid of the eternal
Speaker 2: conscious torment. So I hold the eternal conscious torment, but
Speaker 2: I'm hopeful that you're right.
Speaker 1: Uh, Phil Metzger, any thoughts?
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a couple. That's great, by the way, Bobby,
Speaker 1: and I agree and hold the same position. I do
Speaker 1: think that there's like a just to kind of flesh
Speaker 1: out that idea a little bit more too, because I
Speaker 1: love it. I think there is a, you know, like
Speaker 1: theologically you're in this situation where it certainly seems like
Speaker 1: the language of scripture is.
Speaker 1: Not
Speaker 1: Annihilation. However, there is this kind of, I think almost
Speaker 1: like this like missional push where you are, you're really
Speaker 1: aware of the fact that like the stakes are so
Speaker 1: insanely high as it relates to the gospel and eternity
Speaker 1: that it requires me as a as a person of
Speaker 1: God to be so.
Speaker 1: Just like present with the idea that like, I don't
Speaker 1: want anyone, I wouldn't want that anyone would perish, but
Speaker 1: that everyone would have eternal life. And so I would like,
Speaker 1: I like the compassionate like theological position for me would be, gosh,
Speaker 1: I really hope that that uh annihilation is a valid,
Speaker 1: you know, position, but in terms of, I think like
Speaker 1: Just mythologically, I look at this and I say, OK, Lord,
Speaker 1: how do I live? Like I don't want to just
Speaker 1: assume like, well, they're just not going to exist anymore.
Speaker 1: But no, the Bible's pretty clear on like we are,
Speaker 1: we're to present a gospel that says like there is
Speaker 1: you can be rescued from hell and from sin and
Speaker 1: death and shame. So um hold the same position as
Speaker 1: Bobby and believe that that that view is meant to
Speaker 1: like stir us to to um to to a real
Speaker 1: serious um understanding of evangelism.
Speaker 1: Alexander, what do you think of all this?
Speaker 1: Oh, I love it, and I would agree, you know,
Speaker 1: in Proverbs, it says, it's good to hold one and
Speaker 1: not let go of the other. So I'm, I'm still
Speaker 1: totally open to the idea of, you know, eternal conscious torment,
Speaker 1: but it's also, it's a truth that sets us free, right?
Speaker 1: Not some extreme antithesis of eternal life, and it's, it's just, it's,
Speaker 1: it's really profound when you think of like, OK, so
Speaker 1: if eternal life is eternal life and eternal destruction.
Speaker 1: It could it mean permanent destructions, could the same qualities
Speaker 1: that reflect eternal life just, it's like 0 plus infinity
Speaker 1: is zero, right? So 1 plus infinity is
Speaker 1: Is actually infinity. Um, oh, there's, there's so many points
Speaker 1: I want to bring up. They're all getting stuck at
Speaker 1: the front door, if you know what I mean, but, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you guys so much for your time. And,
Speaker 1: you know, one thing it is for me, and this is,
Speaker 1: this is where it brought me about a year ago, was,
Speaker 1: am I just afraid of hell? Like, do I just
Speaker 1: want to escape eternal conscious torment, or do I actually
Speaker 1: love life? And it's like, how many atheists or secular
Speaker 1: people out there.
Speaker 1: enjoy life. There's, there's things in their life that they
Speaker 1: enjoy to do. They love their family, they love this,
Speaker 1: but they resent this God who would throw someone into
Speaker 1: hell for, forever, for any, any possible thing, like anything
Speaker 1: we could do in this life, does it really merit
Speaker 1: eternal suffering, and you could argue the killing of Jesus
Speaker 1: and the responsibility that weighs on the human soul, but
Speaker 1: it's like, what if that same atheist
Speaker 1: was like, fine, I just, I'll just, I just want
Speaker 1: to not exist. But then as they go through life
Speaker 1: and they enjoy, you know, the, the blessing of having
Speaker 1: a young daughter or whatever it is, and they just say,
Speaker 1: you know what, this, this is life and I like this,
Speaker 1: and this life must have come from somewhere, and I
Speaker 1: want it to continue and, you know, that's what actually
Speaker 1: draws them to Christ instead of resentment over a God
Speaker 1: that they believe to be unjust as a result of
Speaker 1: a misinterpretation. Yeah, but I, I tend to think, um, Alexander,
Speaker 1: that um if
Speaker 1: Yeah, a person who resents God over that.
Speaker 1: Um, issue would, if you resolve that, you're gonna find another.
Speaker 1: Issue to resent God over. I don't, I don't think it's,
Speaker 1: I don't really think that's the issue, even though people
Speaker 1: will say that it is the issue. Um, I, I
Speaker 1: think there are, you know, many, many other things and
Speaker 1: um I, I just think, you know, Bobby Bobby, I
Speaker 1: think referred to it and um
Speaker 1: You know, when Jesus talks about the goats, you know,
Speaker 1: they go into everlasting punishment.
Speaker 1: So
Speaker 1: If you
Speaker 1: Again, we already talked about the the word everlasting being
Speaker 1: the same for both life and and punishment, but
Speaker 1: You can't punish, you can't be punished if you don't exist. So,
Speaker 1: you know, as hard as it is to maybe swallow
Speaker 1: it or to get our head around it, um, it
Speaker 1: seems like that is what the text is saying. And,
Speaker 1: and I, I've said this before, but I think when
Speaker 1: it comes to hell, just as an idea, I think
Speaker 1: part of the problem with our being able to accept
Speaker 1: it is we
Speaker 1: We fail in two places. Number 1, we don't understand
Speaker 1: that the absolute holiness of God, nor 2, do we
Speaker 1: understand the total sinfulness of human beings. And I think
Speaker 1: we tend to think better of ourselves than we actually should. Um,
Speaker 1: I just heard something, um, a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1: About just like just an unimaginably evil kind of a thing.
Speaker 1: That somebody is perpetrating on another person and not being
Speaker 1: um
Speaker 1: Not being dealt with, uh, for it. Um, so in
Speaker 1: other words, those who could deal with it are just
Speaker 1: sort of turning a blind eye to it and this
Speaker 1: person is allowed to go on in this very cruel, um,
Speaker 1: torment of this individual. And, and I just think that
Speaker 1: that is so wicked that this kind of stuff actually
Speaker 1: goes on in the hearts of people, um.
Speaker 1: So I, I think.
Speaker 1: I, I think it's safer to say there are things
Speaker 1: that I can't figure out, there are things that I
Speaker 1: don't understand. There are things that won't really sit right
Speaker 1: with me.
Speaker 1: But
Speaker 1: What do I know? I'm a sinner.
Speaker 1: I'm, I'm not God. So, uh, we know that God
Speaker 1: so loved the world, and we know that he is
Speaker 1: not willing that any should perish, but that all should
Speaker 1: come to repentance. But if people do perish, then they
Speaker 1: will perish because they have chosen to resist and reject.
Speaker 1: And if that's eternal, then I think that we just
Speaker 1: have to leave that in God's hands. Yeah, Bobby.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I think that when people talk about like, OK,
Speaker 2: it just doesn't, the punishment doesn't fit the crime, right? So,
Speaker 2: you know, eternal, uh, separation for a temporal life, and
Speaker 2: that's a, that, that's a good objection to to raise
Speaker 2: and I think that that
Speaker 2: We should have an answer for that. Uh, uh, sometimes
Speaker 2: people will say, well, the reason that, you know, you'll
Speaker 2: be in hell forever because you sin against an eternal God,
Speaker 2: so therefore it's eternal. And that argument doesn't really sit
Speaker 2: the best with me for some reason it does with others, uh, but, uh,
Speaker 2: I get it, God's eternal, but just because God is eternal,
Speaker 2: that is that why, you know, that you're gonna be
Speaker 2: punished eternally.
Speaker 2: I think that probably the better answer is what I
Speaker 2: heard William Lane Craig say that the reason that you,
Speaker 2: you're in hell, you know, is, and it goes on
Speaker 2: for hours because the sinning continues on. It's not like
Speaker 2: you send less when you get to hell, you send more.
Speaker 2: You're bereft of God's general grace that's no longer there
Speaker 2: in your life, and now you're just fully left to
Speaker 2: your fallen nature. And then, um, I feel like that,
Speaker 2: that does make sense that that people are gonna be
Speaker 2: really vile in that state.
Speaker 2: Uh, but I think it comes down to trust that
Speaker 2: if God is just, he's not willing that any should perish,
Speaker 2: he genuinely loves the world, um, you know, he's not
Speaker 2: willing that any should perish, uh, and that no one
Speaker 2: will be without excuse. If those verses are accurate.
Speaker 2: Then I think we can rest and trust in him,
Speaker 2: but if it's causing a non-believer to go, I won't
Speaker 2: even look at the Lord because I can't imagine an
Speaker 2: eternal hell. Well, then my evangelism tactic would be, well, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, there's plenty of people that believe in annihilation. Um,
Speaker 2: you know, let's not let
Speaker 2: The fact of eternal hell, get in your way of
Speaker 2: believing in the gospel. Let's first look at the cross
Speaker 2: and consider that. And, and, and then you can read
Speaker 2: some of these books by people that have written on this,
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't want to let that get in the
Speaker 2: way of somebody ever believing. And so that's where the younger,
Speaker 2: older thing is somebody needs to not.
Speaker 2: Someone doesn't feel like they can witness to somebody unless
Speaker 2: the person becomes a young Earth creationist and a gospel believer,
Speaker 2: or eternal conscious torment and a gospel believer. I think
Speaker 2: sometimes we try to get people to digest things that
Speaker 2: we need to trust the spirit on the other side
Speaker 2: of justification to take care of.
Speaker 1: Phil Metzger, any thoughts?
Speaker 1: No, great stuff. All right, so we'll give you this
Speaker 1: next one then, Jamiah and Apple Valley, what is your
Speaker 1: question for us today here on Pastor's Perspective?
Speaker 1: Do Messianic Jews believe in the rapture? Phil? The pre-tribulation rapture.
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, I mean, well, being a Messianic Jew doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean they fall into the category of one particular
Speaker 1: like theological perspective, right? That's just the idea of Messianic Jew.
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk down. I'm sure you already
Speaker 1: know this, but to make sure, you know, everybody's
Speaker 1: Um, understanding the same thing, that means a person who
Speaker 1: is Jewish, born Jewish, like Jewish blood, who has put
Speaker 1: the faith in.
Speaker 1: Exactly, they put, they put their faith in Jesus. So that,
Speaker 1: that's just describing the person and then in terms of
Speaker 1: what is their theology of the end times, there's many,
Speaker 1: you know, I think of like ministries like Jews for Jesus,
Speaker 1: they lean towards that that particular view of end times
Speaker 1: that a pre-tribulation rapture. Other other I know Messianic Jews
Speaker 1: who believe different than that. So that's a different theological
Speaker 1: issue that isn't connected to them being a Messianic Jew. Right.
Speaker 1: Um, yeah, that, that's, that's a great Phil and I, um, it's,
Speaker 1: it's interesting because, you know, I've, I've been to Israel
Speaker 1: several times and I have, uh, Israeli friends who are
Speaker 1: believers in Jesus. And it and it's funny because, um,
Speaker 1: Like you said, they don't all hold to the exact
Speaker 1: same thing. And uh I've even had conversations with Israeli
Speaker 1: friends who they're, they're a little bit.
Speaker 1: They they sort of get weary with the, uh, American, um,
Speaker 1: evangelical dispensation list who is always talking about the rapture
Speaker 1: and talking about Russia coming down and talking about all
Speaker 1: of that stuff, and they're, uh, they've even said to me, like,
Speaker 1: you know, like, you know, we don't really talk about
Speaker 1: that stuff here. I mean, that's kind of just what
Speaker 1: you guys do over there. So it was almost like, uh, we,
Speaker 1: we're not really, we don't, we're not asking you here
Speaker 1: to give us like a prophecy update, you know.
Speaker 1: We, we just need to know how to follow Jesus
Speaker 1: and serve Him. So. Jamiah, thanks for your phone call,
Speaker 1: and we're out of time. Sorry to those of you
Speaker 1: that we couldn't get to today. We'll be back tomorrow
Speaker 1: from 3 to 4 p.m. Pacific time. We're going to
Speaker 1: archive today's episode on Facebook, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and Spotify
Speaker 1: in just a little bit if you want to hear
Speaker 1: any portion again.
Speaker 1: Or share it with friends or whatever you want to do,
Speaker 1: it'll be there for you. And thank you for listening today,
Speaker 1: thank you for watching as well. We'll talk to you tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Brian Broderson, Bobby Conway, and Phil Metzger. I'm
Speaker 1: Brian Perez, and yeah, we'll talk to you tomorrow. Good night.
Speaker 1: God bless.