Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
Speaker 1: It is Monday, the 23rd of June, and we are
Speaker 1: here live until 4 o'clock and we'd love to chat
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Speaker 1: today is to call us at 888-564-6173. And answering your
Speaker 1: questions today, we've got the lead pastor of Calvary.
Speaker 1: Costa Mesa in Southern California. That would be Char Broderson.
Speaker 1: How are you doing, Char? I'm doing all right. How
Speaker 1: are you, Brian? Doing well. Great to have you here
Speaker 1: in the studio. And Mike Chaddick is joining us too.
Speaker 1: He's on Zoom joining us online. Mike is the pastor
Speaker 1: of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano, California. How are you, Mike?
Speaker 2: I'm doing wonderful. Good to be here, guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally good to have you here. Not as good
Speaker 1: as having you here live in the studio, but hey,
Speaker 2: well it's, it's a step down, but I, I appreciate
Speaker 2: the opportunity. We sure
Speaker 1: do appreciate you being there.
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Speaker 1: So lots of stuff happened over the weekend and uh
Speaker 1: we've got some questions in that regard. Here's one from
Speaker 1: Sherry who sent this on Facebook. Hello, are we biblically
Speaker 1: required to support Israel? Where does it say that in
Speaker 1: the Bible? I saw a clip that said, Old Testament
Speaker 1: Israelis are not the same as now, so we don't
Speaker 1: always have to protect them. I've always believed we did.
Speaker 1: This made me question, do I know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 1: I don't even know how to look that up in
Speaker 1: the Bible to understand that. Uh, Char, we'll start with you.
Speaker 1: What would you say to Sherry? Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think Sherry is uh bringing up a topic that's really important.
Speaker 1: I think, uh, many times we hear these statements.
Speaker 1: And I think we just pull them kind of right
Speaker 1: out of their biblical context and out of the biblical story,
Speaker 1: and we treat them, you know, as like kind of these.
Speaker 1: Uh, dogmatic essentials of what it means to be a Christian,
Speaker 1: you know, without actually knowing where they fit in the story,
Speaker 1: what they mean, who they were originally spoken to. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, Sherry's question, I think, goes all the way
Speaker 1: back to this promise that God gives to Abraham.
Speaker 1: And we need to understand that Abraham, you know, he's
Speaker 1: the father of the nation of Israel, but Abraham actually
Speaker 1: comes later in the story of the Bible, right? The
Speaker 1: story of the Bible begins with Adam and Eve, who
Speaker 1: are the mother and father of all humanity, and the
Speaker 1: story starts about how God created them and his image
Speaker 1: created them to be his partners and to work with him.
Speaker 1: To spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth.
Speaker 1: They rebel and reject that offer, they leave God's presence
Speaker 1: in the garden, this partnership kind of goes off the rails, and,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of the world is in this downward
Speaker 1: spiral until we come.
Speaker 1: Basically, to Genesis chapter 12, where God is redeeming the story,
Speaker 1: and he chooses Abraham as his vessel, and his family
Speaker 1: as his vessel through which God is going to bring
Speaker 1: this human project back on its rails. And so,
Speaker 1: In the context, right? God is saying, like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be with you, Abraham, I'm gonna bring this thing to
Speaker 1: its finish and it's fulfillment, and whoever comes against you,
Speaker 1: and my plans for you is not gonna prosper, but
Speaker 1: those who do work with you and help you along,
Speaker 1: I'm going to bless them. So that's the context in
Speaker 1: which this comes into, and I think unfortunately, we don't
Speaker 1: follow the story out.
Speaker 1: That Israel goes through the family of Abraham, goes through
Speaker 1: all of these ups and downs, where God is correcting
Speaker 1: them and bringing them back into his ways, but all
Speaker 1: of this culminates in the story of Jesus, that Jesus
Speaker 1: Christ is actually the fulfillment of Israel's story.
Speaker 1: That he is the true king over Israel, and really
Speaker 1: all of the promises that God made to Abraham, to
Speaker 1: the nation of Israel, to David the king, even the
Speaker 1: promise of the new covenant that we find later in
Speaker 1: Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and the visions that we find in Isaiah,
Speaker 1: all of these are fulfilled in Jesus.
Speaker 1: And so now Jesus defines for us who we are
Speaker 1: to bless, who we are to curse, who we are
Speaker 1: to support, who we are to resist. And I think
Speaker 1: we really need to look at the teachings of Jesus
Speaker 1: specifically in the sermon on the Mount. Now, nowhere in
Speaker 1: scripture does it say that we are to give our
Speaker 1: full support to any human government, right? That like,
Speaker 1: You know, when we, when we look at the world,
Speaker 1: we don't just go, well, you know, pick a random country, like,
Speaker 1: I just support that government and whatever they do, we
Speaker 1: need to use our minds, and we need to use
Speaker 1: the scripture to discern what is right and wrong, and
Speaker 1: to discern what things, you know, that government does honors God,
Speaker 1: doesn't honor God, and specifically we do this through looking
Speaker 1: at the teachings of Jesus. I could go on and
Speaker 1: talk more about this, but
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think the question is, you know,
Speaker 1: do we support Israel now, um,
Speaker 1: I, I just think we're asking the wrong question. I
Speaker 1: think the question that we should be asking is, what
Speaker 1: does it mean to be a follower of Jesus? And who,
Speaker 1: what government on earth do I actually give my allegiance to?
Speaker 1: And I think the answer from the Bible is, um,
Speaker 1: Jesus wants me to be his disciple, and he wants
Speaker 1: me to give his allegiance to him and him alone,
Speaker 1: and any nation state that I belong to actually comes
Speaker 1: secondary to my allegiance to Jesus and to his kingdom.
Speaker 1: And if I want to give my, you know, money
Speaker 1: or my verbal, or, you know, social media support to
Speaker 1: another nation on earth, again, I need to scrutinize that
Speaker 1: according to
Speaker 1: Uh, the righteousness and justice that is clearly laid out
Speaker 1: in scripture, and not just because of some verse that
Speaker 1: I've ripped from its context. Now, let me just say this, uh,
Speaker 1: saying this, I'm not antagonistic towards Israelis, I'm not antagonistic
Speaker 1: towards Palestinians. The the
Speaker 1: Understanding of the gospel is that God wants all people
Speaker 1: to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Speaker 1: And so he is the God of the nation of Israel.
Speaker 1: As well as the God of the nations, and the
Speaker 1: New Testament makes this abundantly clear. God is for people,
Speaker 1: and he wants them to be part of his kingdom.
Speaker 1: And I think the problem is, is
Speaker 1: Sometimes if I'm supporting one nation state, it automatically means
Speaker 1: I'm anti this nation. And I think we as Christians,
Speaker 1: as followers of Jesus, we have to be aware of,
Speaker 1: you know, political positioning like that, because following Jesus actually
Speaker 1: forbids me from being antibody. I am
Speaker 1: people that they would come to know the knowledge of
Speaker 1: the truth about who Jesus is. I've said enough. Go
Speaker 1: pitch to Mike. Well, real quick, Mike, before you answer
Speaker 1: what we have another question on the same topic. I
Speaker 1: probably should have just read them back to back, but
Speaker 1: let me read this question, which brings up some of
Speaker 1: the same points as the other one, but um,
Speaker 1: So, uh, here's what it is. Uh, I really need
Speaker 1: your help with a spiritual question that has political subtext,
Speaker 1: and I want to make sure I'm understanding scripture properly
Speaker 1: and in context. I have a deep love and respect
Speaker 1: for the Jews. My whole life I've heard, bless Israel
Speaker 1: and you will.
Speaker 1: blessed, cursed Israel, and you will be cursed. Genesis 12:3.
Speaker 1: Many Christians interpret this as a command to support the
Speaker 1: modern state of Israel without criticism. Others say it refers
Speaker 1: to God's covenant with Abraham's descendants and should not be
Speaker 1: equated with a political nation. So I reread the scripture
Speaker 1: and saw it doesn't in the NIV refer to Israel,
Speaker 1: but to Abraham's descendants that blew my mind. I feel
Speaker 1: like if I understand the context and meaning of the
Speaker 1: scripture in Genesis, I can be on the right side of.
Speaker 1: The politics. In Genesis 12:3, uh, is Genesis 12:3 about
Speaker 1: supporting a political state without question or comment about war
Speaker 1: or potentially genocide? Is it about honoring God's covenant people
Speaker 1: in a different way? How should I faithfully live out
Speaker 1: this verse today?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm assuming we're gonna go to other questions eventually
Speaker 2: on this episode. This is a big can of worms,
Speaker 2: those are fantastic questions. There's many layers to them. They,
Speaker 2: I mean, just exegetical alone, meaning if you look at
Speaker 2: various Bible passages, both in the Old Testament and exploring
Speaker 2: the context, looking at the language, coming to the New Testament,
Speaker 2: what seems to be the same, what's changed, what's fulfilled,
Speaker 2: what's transformed, uh, what, what's perpetual.
Speaker 2: Those are all, I, I think, uh, I mean, you
Speaker 2: have to have those conversations. I'm in the middle of
Speaker 2: having them with other people are delved into some of
Speaker 2: that uh exegetical stuff, um.
Speaker 2: I think, here, I, I can't get into all of
Speaker 2: it right now. There's no way I can possibly do that.
Speaker 2: Here's one thing I will say, even let's go back
Speaker 2: to Genesis 12 and, and talking about, I'll bless those
Speaker 2: who bless you and curse those who curse you. And
Speaker 2: I'll leave aside the question of whether it applies to
Speaker 2: the modern secular state of Israel today or whether it doesn't.
Speaker 2: Let's go back to the beginning and let me point
Speaker 2: out what it clearly never meant.
Speaker 2: For anyone ever, and that was unqualified support. It never
Speaker 2: meant that. If you believe that you are taking a
Speaker 2: stand against God.
Speaker 2: Because God took a stand against Israel. God brought judgment
Speaker 2: on Israel. God sent foreign nations to punish Israel. Israel,
Speaker 2: time and time and time again, was in gross licentious sin,
Speaker 2: not only doing many of the same sins as the Canaanites,
Speaker 2: but it was even worse because they were doing so
Speaker 2: with the full knowledge of the true and living God. So,
Speaker 2: let's keep in mind, however, you're going to interpret.
Speaker 2: The Abrahamic covenant in the Old Testament context, but not
Speaker 2: even getting the New Testament, which of course you must
Speaker 2: do eventually, and it, it can change things, but let's
Speaker 2: just even take it there. I think it never ever
Speaker 2: ever meant support like if support means affirm.
Speaker 2: And validate every action and every word. It never meant that.
Speaker 2: That's ridiculous. God would be wrong, and I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: stand against God. God is clearly in the right, every
Speaker 2: time he speaks, every time he acts, that means every
Speaker 2: harsh word, every prophet, I was just going through Amos
Speaker 2: and my own personal preaching, and he's preaching the woes,
Speaker 2: and you have these prophets, and they're lamenting against Israel's sin.
Speaker 2: I mean, ironically, the, the unfaithful Jews in Israel at
Speaker 2: that time, they were angry and wanting to persecute and
Speaker 2: kill the prophets because they were criticizing what they were doing.
Speaker 2: They were criticizing the national agenda. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 2: like Jeremiah was thrown into a pit. Why? Because he
Speaker 2: was seen as a political traitor.
Speaker 2: Because he said capitulate to the enemy, because the message
Speaker 2: to Jeremiah was, hey, I'm punishing you, so don't fight this.
Speaker 2: I'm punishing you. This is gonna happen. So Jeremiah, go
Speaker 2: tell them, Jeremiah's faithfully tells them, and they're like, you're
Speaker 2: standing against us, you're a traitor, how could you not
Speaker 2: support us in everything we say or do, you're a Jew,
Speaker 2: well this is Israel, you'll do what we say, or
Speaker 2: you'll go down to the pit. So, it never meant that.
Speaker 2: Let's just be very, very clear, and I think what
Speaker 2: I want to speak to here is not so much
Speaker 2: the exegetical side, but
Speaker 2: When it was reported the other night that, you know,
Speaker 2: the United States dropped bombs on Iran and they, and they,
Speaker 2: you know, directly in the conflict between Iran and Israel,
Speaker 2: and a lot of Christians, including pastors, started posting on
Speaker 2: social media, I support Israel, again, that's, that's sort of
Speaker 2: my camp. You'll probably see 90% of those, maybe 10%,
Speaker 2: like remember Iran, remember about probably less than 10%.
Speaker 2: If you grow up in another camp, it might be
Speaker 2: the opposite. Remember Palestine, remember Iran, we hate Israel, but
Speaker 2: that's not my world. I don't think that was Char's world, uh,
Speaker 2: either growing up. So I think we need to just
Speaker 2: be careful, all of us, even if you don't agree
Speaker 2: on our exegesis.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes when we say I stand with I support,
Speaker 2: I think it might help instead of just a little
Speaker 2: meme or graphic you're posting. Explain what exactly that means,
Speaker 2: because while you and your camp might understand what that means,
Speaker 2: there is a
Speaker 2: Who unbelieving world, there are people from various backgrounds, various kinds,
Speaker 2: and they're they're reading your words, they're seeing your little post,
Speaker 2: and they're coming away with something. I, I hope it's
Speaker 2: not what you're saying, which is Christians must stand with
Speaker 2: Israel when they're wrong.
Speaker 2: So, for example, Israel today, the modern Jewish state of Israel,
Speaker 2: which is a secular state, so in that sense, it
Speaker 2: it certainly is a little bit different than the Old Testament,
Speaker 2: but 99% plus of ethnic Jews in Israel reject Jesus
Speaker 2: Christ as their Lord and Savior. So, that's apostasy by
Speaker 2: biblical standards. So, I certainly hope when we're saying I
Speaker 2: stand with Israel, we're not saying I stand with apostasy.
Speaker 2: I hope we're not saying that.
Speaker 2: Israel is the gay capital of the Middle East. Tel
Speaker 2: Aviv has the largest LGBTQ pride festival in the Middle East. It's,
Speaker 2: it's called the gay Mecca. I hope we're not saying
Speaker 2: as evangelical by believing quote unquote, conservative Christians, that that's good.
Speaker 2: We support sexual perversity. I hope we're not saying that. So,
Speaker 2: what I wanna leave everyone with here is just be
Speaker 2: very careful. We have such polarization.
Speaker 2: In our culture today, and, and I think too often we're,
Speaker 2: we're preaching to the choir, and we're not being careful
Speaker 2: with our words, especially our slogans and our symbols and
Speaker 2: things like that, and we need to very carefully unpack,
Speaker 2: because I think it's possible to have a different take
Speaker 2: on exeg Jesus, right? There's gonna be a lot of
Speaker 2: Christians who believe, no, no, no, those, those promises still apply.
Speaker 2: We have to bless the ethnic Israel today. OK, OK.
Speaker 2: But even if that's your exegetical position, please go back
Speaker 2: and remember from the Old Testament.
Speaker 2: That never meant affirming Israel in its wickedness, never, not
Speaker 2: a single time. So I think there's room for, in
Speaker 2: some sense, like validation, appreciation, a debt of gratitude is
Speaker 2: the language I like to earn. I, I owe the
Speaker 2: Jewish people a debt of gratitude, but a debt of
Speaker 2: gratitude never means I'm obligated to stand with someone when
Speaker 2: they're wrong. That's not how I repay a debt of gratitude,
Speaker 2: so I just hope we're very careful.
Speaker 2: And kind of the, the way we're approaching this and
Speaker 2: the way we're projecting our beliefs to the world, because
Speaker 2: I think if it doesn't reflect a genuine exegetical theological misunderstanding,
Speaker 2: we are causing a lot of communication and social problems
Speaker 2: in the world by not being careful.
Speaker 1: Do you think the idea that Christians, if we bless Israel,
Speaker 1: if we pray for the peace of Jerusalem, that the
Speaker 1: idea is, well, if we pray for them, they'll turn
Speaker 1: around and the people in Tel Aviv who are who
Speaker 1: aren't Christians will maybe they'll become Christians because they'll see
Speaker 1: that we love them.
Speaker 1: I think this is one of those things I mentioned
Speaker 1: this earlier, I think.
Speaker 1: There are certain passages in scripture that were spoken.
Speaker 1: You know, they are for that, well, actually all the
Speaker 1: passages in scripture, right, are for a specific community at
Speaker 1: that moment in a specific context, and we need to
Speaker 1: understand this, you know, it has been wisely said, scripture
Speaker 1: is not written for us, or excuse me, it's not
Speaker 1: written to us, but it is written for us. And
Speaker 1: I think we need to differentiate on things like this.
Speaker 1: And sometimes, you know, I mentioned we need to know
Speaker 1: where we're at in the story. Sometimes we'll just drop ourselves.
Speaker 1: You know, in this thing, right? So, when we're reading
Speaker 1: passages like Genesis 12, right, we're understanding that this is
Speaker 1: God's plan of redemption, not just for Israel, for the
Speaker 1: whole world, for all of humanity, right? And it's not just,
Speaker 1: you know, like Mike saying, like this, you know, blank
Speaker 1: check that Israel can just do whatever it wants and
Speaker 1: never be criticized because God's on their side, right?
Speaker 1: But saying, God will be faithful to them, to the
Speaker 1: end to accomplish his purpose. That's what he's telling Abraham,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, another passage puts it this way, no
Speaker 1: weapon formed against you shall prosper, right? So God's saying like,
Speaker 1: nothing's gonna take you out and thwart my promises to
Speaker 1: redeem the world. That's what God is saying. Take the
Speaker 1: whole message together, right? Don't just extract one verse and
Speaker 1: just think that this is some kind of like exchange
Speaker 1: that you can do with God.
Speaker 1: I think also pray for the peace of Jerusalem. You know, again,
Speaker 1: this is a Psalm, right? That is talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: the turmoil that's going on in among the nations in Israel,
Speaker 1: and what they want is peace. And so there's this
Speaker 1: encouragement to the people of God that we would pray
Speaker 1: for God's peace, but that isn't just something that like,
Speaker 1: you know, God zaps like peace, cause we prayed for it.
Speaker 1: It's actually something that the people of God had to
Speaker 1: choose to walk in God's righteousness and justice and mercy
Speaker 1: in order to experience his peace. So, you know, when
Speaker 1: we're talking about these things, sometimes we treat biblical promises
Speaker 1: like magical incantations, like a rain god kind of a thing,
Speaker 1: you know, well, if I, God said, if I just
Speaker 1: do this recipe, then he does this, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's just not the way that biblical promises work,
Speaker 1: and that's why I referenced in the beginning, all of
Speaker 1: this actually has to do with Jesus. He is the
Speaker 1: one that brings all of this to pass, and it
Speaker 1: finds fulfillment in him. And now, some people are gonna
Speaker 1: get really ticked off that I'm gonna say this.
Speaker 1: But in the New Testament, we never find a command.
Speaker 1: That we have to bless the Jews, and we will
Speaker 1: be blessed. If we curse them, we will be cursed.
Speaker 1: We never find an exhortation to pray for the peace
Speaker 1: of Jerusalem. And I have actually suggested that Jesus gives
Speaker 1: us a new prayer to pray, in place of the
Speaker 1: pray for the pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Now,
Speaker 1: remember that Jerusalem was the center of Israel's identity politically, religiously,
Speaker 1: it's the seat of God.
Speaker 1: Reigning over the nations there at the temple, but we
Speaker 1: understand that that actually has come to fulfillment in and
Speaker 1: through the person of Jesus Christ, right? He is the
Speaker 1: living presence of God, housing that temple present, power, holiness,
Speaker 1: it's all found in him. And so, Jesus taught us
Speaker 1: to pray.
Speaker 1: Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as
Speaker 1: it is in heaven. He's not focusing on the blessing
Speaker 1: of Jerusalem, he's focusing on actually God's kingdom going to
Speaker 1: the ends of the earth, it not being concentrated anymore
Speaker 1: to a locale, but now, through Christ's body, the church,
Speaker 1: and by his spirit, it's spreading to the ends of
Speaker 1: the earth. And so, again, I just think that this
Speaker 1: is one of those areas where we get stuck in
Speaker 1: a part of the story.
Speaker 1: And we think, oh, this is what God wants. God
Speaker 1: wants all the world to be focused on this part
Speaker 1: of land and to pray for that peace, that wasn't
Speaker 1: God's plan from the beginning. Remember, read this even just
Speaker 1: in the Gospels in the Book of Acts, the kingdom
Speaker 1: message is gonna spread through Jesus' disciples, the good news.
Speaker 1: About the reign of God from Jerusalem to Judea, to Samaria,
Speaker 1: to the ends of the earth. Jerusalem is no longer
Speaker 1: the center point, it's the sending point to go to
Speaker 1: all the other places, so that the whole world can
Speaker 1: experience the peaceful reign of God. And so I think
Speaker 1: we're just getting the story, we're going backwards into the story.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like
Speaker 1: You know, people will get this analogy sometimes, right? When
Speaker 1: we're questioning the law and we're wondering like what is
Speaker 1: its validity today?
Speaker 1: And, you know, or, well, if it's not valid today,
Speaker 1: then it didn't ever matter. And many theologians have pointed
Speaker 1: out that the law works as a signpost, right? But
Speaker 1: once you arrive at the destination that the signs were
Speaker 1: pointing to, you don't go back to the signs. It
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. You've arrived at the destination, so
Speaker 1: the signs actually did what they were intended to do.
Speaker 1: And now that you have arrived, enjoy, live in it,
Speaker 1: you know, and so that's actually what we're saying about
Speaker 1: Jesus. He has fulfilled all that the promises of Abraham,
Speaker 1: the law, the covenant given to David and to Jeremiah,
Speaker 1: all of that was pointing to him. And we've arrived
Speaker 1: at him. Why are we going back to these Old
Speaker 1: Testament promises and trying to, you know, um,
Speaker 1: Take them to the bank when they've already been cashed in,
Speaker 1: so to speak, with Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus.
Speaker 1: Follow him. He is the way, he is the truth,
Speaker 1: He is the life. Let him define reality for you.
Speaker 1: Let him define blessing for you. Let him show you
Speaker 1: who we are to love, who we are to bless,
Speaker 1: who we are to serve, and stop going back to
Speaker 1: these other covenants. They are pointing forward. I'm done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I just, again, I feel like every time
Speaker 2: we give an answer, it opens up new questions and new,
Speaker 2: I mean, this, it's, it's a complicated matter, which is
Speaker 2: why I can understand why so many different Christians disagree
Speaker 2: on it, and especially if, if we only surround ourselves
Speaker 2: with people who already agree with us. I think we're
Speaker 2: never gonna actually properly deal with all that scripture says
Speaker 2: on the issue. And then of course, it's a hot topic,
Speaker 2: which is why it's being asked multiple times and we
Speaker 2: all know from recent events why that is, but, um,
Speaker 2: I think, and, and obviously the Old Testament still has
Speaker 2: formative power. It's, we're no longer covenantally under it, I
Speaker 2: think is, that's what I understand Char to be saying,
Speaker 2: but obviously, like Paul would say in 1 Corinthians 10,
Speaker 2: referring back to the children of Israel, Moses passing through
Speaker 2: the cloud and through the sea, and these things are
Speaker 2: written for us, right? They're actually written for our admin.
Speaker 2: definition and instruction on whom the end of the ages
Speaker 2: has come. So, obviously, as Christians, we still read the
Speaker 2: Old Testament, we're not saying it doesn't have value, formative power, validity,
Speaker 2: but covenantally, and I think that's the key word, we
Speaker 2: are not covenantally under the terms and stipulations of the
Speaker 2: Mosaic law, that that very clearly, I think that to me, I,
Speaker 2: I can't imagine.
Speaker 2: Uh, anyone who calls themselves a Christian arguing against that point,
Speaker 2: I think that's, that's the heart of the gospel, that
Speaker 2: Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises of God. But
Speaker 2: I think in terms of what do we do now, um,
Speaker 2: with respect to like the modern say, but, this, this
Speaker 2: is how I personally think, and again, I think there's
Speaker 2: room for disagreement on the applications or how we think,
Speaker 2: and if we haven't fully wrestled through all the tests.
Speaker 2: For me, the way I look at it.
Speaker 2: It's, I, I, as a Christian, owe the Jewish people
Speaker 2: a debt of gratitude. The reason for that is it's
Speaker 2: not that they're doing things right and everything their government's doing, uh,
Speaker 2: or even that they're believers, cause, like I mentioned, 99%
Speaker 2: of ethnic Jews living in Israel reject Jesus Christ as
Speaker 2: their Lord and Savior, but nevertheless, that it doesn't change
Speaker 2: the fact that according to the flesh, God chose and
Speaker 2: used them.
Speaker 2: To be the vehicles of his divine revelation, recorded in
Speaker 2: sacred scripture, preserved by them for us through centuries, through conflict,
Speaker 2: through ups and downs, and migratory settling, all of that,
Speaker 2: along with according to the flesh, the Messiah, our Lord
Speaker 2: and Savior Jesus Christ. So, for that sake, again, my,
Speaker 2: my sort of disposition, I would say, it's not so
Speaker 2: much tied into
Speaker 2: You know, like Genesis 12:3 or something like is being asked.
Speaker 2: It's more just that natural human instinct of gratitude, and
Speaker 2: I think Paul is this way where, again, he loves
Speaker 2: his Jewish brethren again at some point he wiped his hand,
Speaker 2: he said, for now, you know, you guys don't listen,
Speaker 2: I'm going to the Gentiles for now. But nevertheless, Paul
Speaker 2: still had an affection.
Speaker 2: For his people group, for the Jewish people, because he
Speaker 2: was one of them, and he said, I love them. I,
Speaker 2: I love them so much, I myself wish I was
Speaker 2: cursed so that they might be saved, but nevertheless, Paul Ryan,
Speaker 2: they're not saved, and they're not doing good, and some
Speaker 2: of his harshest critics and conflicts were with um Jewish non-believers,
Speaker 2: Jewish uh people.
Speaker 2: rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. So the way I
Speaker 2: look at it, I owe them a debt of gratitude
Speaker 2: for how God has used them in redemptive history. So,
Speaker 2: in whatever way I can, I wanna be a blessing,
Speaker 2: but at the same time, that never meant and does
Speaker 2: not mean I owe it to the Jewish people or
Speaker 2: the state of Israel to side with them when they
Speaker 2: are doing things by biblical standards is evil and wrong.
Speaker 2: That is, that is not there whatsoever, so it never was.
Speaker 2: So that's, that's kind of how I think about it.
Speaker 1: All right. Is there any stuff, other stuff we can
Speaker 1: talk about? Of course there is, and that's why we
Speaker 1: want to hear from you. 888-564-6173. Yeah, great conversation. If
Speaker 1: you wanna hear any part of it again, we're gonna
Speaker 1: archive later on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify.
Speaker 1: But we'd love to hear from you about anything else
Speaker 1: that you want to talk about. Here is a, oh,
Speaker 1: go ahead. Oh, OK. Are you sure? Yeah, I mean, well,
Speaker 1: I just had a thought. Go for it, go for it.
Speaker 1: There's been a couple of times this week that I've
Speaker 1: had conversations that I think there's something that applies just
Speaker 1: for those that are listening.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes, like, what we're looking for is like
Speaker 1: the right perspective on world affairs, right? How should we view,
Speaker 1: you know, the war in Ukraine, the Russians, how should
Speaker 1: we view the Iranians versus, you know, the Jews and
Speaker 1: these things, and like Mike said in the beginning, these
Speaker 1: are like super complicated questions, far above our pay grade, like,
Speaker 1: we don't know what is actually going on in these
Speaker 1: secret meetings of governments and things that are being planned
Speaker 1: in these things. And, you know, like,
Speaker 1: Some of us, in our perspective, we could actually be
Speaker 1: wrong on this, but I want to bring it back
Speaker 1: to reality.
Speaker 1: I don't think God holds me responsible to have the
Speaker 1: right perspective on everything that is going on in the world.
Speaker 1: What God actually holds me responsible for as a follower
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ, is to love God and to love
Speaker 1: my neighbor, and I can only do that in a
Speaker 1: local context, you know, and I think sometimes we are
Speaker 1: being given because of, you know, 24/7 social media and
Speaker 1: this news feed that's constantly coming at us.
Speaker 1: This burden of the world that we cannot possibly bear
Speaker 1: or really do anything about.
Speaker 1: But we have people all around us who need the gospel.
Speaker 1: We have people all around us who need to be
Speaker 1: shown the love of God. We have homeless in our cities,
Speaker 1: homeless families in our cities, we have um sanitary living
Speaker 1: issues in our city. We have, you know, all of
Speaker 1: these current needs.
Speaker 1: And the mistake that we could make is that what
Speaker 1: God cares about is our stance on Israel and doesn't
Speaker 1: actually care about how we're living out the gospel in
Speaker 1: our local context. I think God would say, you're focusing
Speaker 1: on the wrong thing, right? Like, and I talk about
Speaker 1: this a lot with our church, so this isn't just
Speaker 1: me picking on this question.
Speaker 1: But we have this way as Christians where we kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, check a spiritual box, and we think that
Speaker 1: this is what God wants. God addresses this stuff in
Speaker 1: the prophets. He says, do you think I want your sacrifices,
Speaker 1: your offerings? Do you think I'm thirsty for the blood
Speaker 1: of bulls and goats? It was never about that. I
Speaker 1: am looking for justice. I am looking for steadfast love.
Speaker 1: I am looking for humility. That's the thing that I want.
Speaker 1: And so I think that this just, you know, let's
Speaker 1: not miss.
Speaker 1: The forest for the trees, right? Like, let's not get
Speaker 1: so caught up in these questions about these things. These
Speaker 1: are fine things to talk about. Yes, it's important to know,
Speaker 1: you know, how to understand the story of the Bible,
Speaker 1: where we're at. Yes, questions about Israel and our support
Speaker 1: for them, but let's never focus on those to the
Speaker 1: neglect of what Jesus has called us to do as disciples,
Speaker 1: which is to
Speaker 1: Follow him, yeah, to be like him, to do what
Speaker 1: he did. I just think it's so important just to
Speaker 1: emphasize that we're talking about some of this, you know,
Speaker 1: huge world events.
Speaker 1: No, I've said that before, that oftentimes you'll walk into
Speaker 1: a coffee shop and you'll see Christians gathered debating, you know,
Speaker 1: Israel or new earth, old Earth, and all these other things. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: the barista is having a bad day. Wouldn't it be
Speaker 1: nice if one of us just walked up to them
Speaker 1: and just had a conversation, put our arm around them
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: You know, invited them into a not that conversation necessarily,
Speaker 1: but just got to know them, etc. So, yeah, good
Speaker 1: stuff today on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to
Speaker 1: call us today. We're gonna be here for another 30
Speaker 1: minutes and we would love to hear from you. 888-564-6173.
Speaker 1: We're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. We've
Speaker 1: got Char Broderson and Mike Chaddick here to answer your questions. 888-564-6173.
Speaker 1: Looks like you guys wanna keep talking about this, so
Speaker 1: we will. David in San Diego listening on the Kwave app.
Speaker 1: Thank you for calling in today. How can we help you?
Speaker 2: Hey, how are you? Thanks
Speaker 1: for taking my call. You bet.
Speaker 2: I have a question about uh some of the comments
Speaker 2: you guys made. Um, I've always been understanding that this
Speaker 2: covenant that God made with Abraham was an eternal covenant,
Speaker 2: a covenant that would go on forever, an everlasting covenant,
Speaker 2: as he says in Genesis 13:15, if that covenant is everlasting,
Speaker 2: and if Jesus is gonna fulfill that coven covenant when
Speaker 2: he comes back and rules and reigns from Jerusalem, um,
Speaker 2: why would we not support
Speaker 2: The covenant right now. Now that doesn't mean that we
Speaker 2: would say everything Israel does is correct. I agreed with
Speaker 2: everything you said there, but my question is, why wouldn't
Speaker 2: we honor and support uh this grand plan of salvation
Speaker 2: that God has set up with this everlasting covenant? Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think sometimes, you know, we take
Speaker 1: this promise to Abraham, and we think that it means
Speaker 1: the whole nation, but
Speaker 1: You know, it's specific in the story, and Paul points
Speaker 1: this out in Galatians actually, that the seed that is
Speaker 1: being talked about.
Speaker 1: is singular, and Paul is at lengths to show this
Speaker 1: is talking about Messiah.
Speaker 1: So, though we have understood it for so long as
Speaker 1: referring to the nation, he says, no, we have realized
Speaker 1: that this is actually fulfilled in and through Jesus Messiah.
Speaker 1: That's why I was going, you know, at lengths to emphasize,
Speaker 1: Jesus is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant.
Speaker 1: And now, as Paul, you know, a Jew, a Pharisee,
Speaker 1: somebody who is so passionate for the law, understanding of
Speaker 1: the Old Testament scriptures, shows us now how Israel is
Speaker 1: fulfilled and finds its true identity, meaning and purpose through
Speaker 1: Jesus Messiah.
Speaker 1: And now Jesus redefined who Israel is. This is what
Speaker 1: Paul is talking about in the book of Romans, and
Speaker 1: also in Galatians, right? That there is a redefinition of
Speaker 1: the people of God and the Israel of God because
Speaker 1: Messiah has come. And so that's, I think what Mike
Speaker 1: is referring to as well, but that's my stance and
Speaker 1: understanding is we aren't supposed to be focusing on the
Speaker 1: nation state of Israel, but
Speaker 1: Actually, the king of Israel, Jesus, and who identifies with
Speaker 1: him and who is part of his kingdom. And even
Speaker 1: when we're talking about the fulfillment of these things, I
Speaker 1: hope that we're recognizing that that would be a messianic
Speaker 1: fulfillment of the promises of God.
Speaker 1: And so I think we need to be aware, Mike
Speaker 1: and I have addressed this before, we need to be aware,
Speaker 1: be aware of this kind of backdoor blessing that is
Speaker 1: reserved for Israel outside of Jesus. Remember, Jesus is Yahweh.
Speaker 1: So, if Israel is rejecting Yahweh, Mike referenced this earlier, 99% of,
Speaker 1: you know, Jews living in the land reject Jesus, who
Speaker 1: is Yahweh in the flesh. Yahweh become human, right?
Speaker 1: And it sounds like, you know, many times we are
Speaker 1: creating this caveat where you can still experience the blessing
Speaker 1: and favor of God.
Speaker 1: As a nation while simultaneously rejecting God.
Speaker 1: So, do you, do you understand what I'm, what I'm
Speaker 1: getting at here, maybe pointing out kind of the
Speaker 1: Logical fallacy of.
Speaker 2: I do,
Speaker 1: but I
Speaker 2: think that we've left the, the original intent of the
Speaker 2: question and gotten off into the weeds. The original intent
Speaker 2: of the question was, should we, should we support Israel?
Speaker 2: And um, I agree that we don't support them unilaterally
Speaker 2: in decisions and moral issues or those kind of things,
Speaker 2: but as far as uh upholding the covenant, um, that
Speaker 2: God placed upon them, God clearly said that that covenant
Speaker 2: was forever.
Speaker 2: And my question would be, would be, what did God mean?
Speaker 2: Um, in Genesis 13 when he said, I make this
Speaker 2: covenant as an everlasting covenant forever. And that wasn't just
Speaker 2: one verse. I'm quoting from one verse, but, but he
Speaker 2: reiterated that forever covenant many times, um, in Genesis 17
Speaker 2: when
Speaker 2: Abraham said, what do I have to do to get
Speaker 2: this covenant, you know, and the deep sleep falls on Abraham, and,
Speaker 2: and God passes through, uh, the, these pieces where he
Speaker 2: tells him to separate these animals and this, this souran
Speaker 2: treaty that Abraham would have been familiar with. Abraham falls
Speaker 2: into a deep sleep and God alone passes through the
Speaker 2: covenant is.
Speaker 2: Solely conditioned on God's faithfulness, we have a nation that
Speaker 2: in its disobedience and rejecting the Messiah, which is why
Speaker 2: Jesus wept on Palm Sunday. Nobody's saying that, um, Israel's right.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's more atheism there and, and you know, immoral,
Speaker 2: all that.
Speaker 1: So then what is, what does support for Israel mean then, David?
Speaker 1: Like what do you mean by that? I guess maybe
Speaker 1: that would be helpful.
Speaker 1: To know
Speaker 1: Um,
Speaker 1: So if we don't support the government there currently in
Speaker 1: their atheism, and they, you know, as Mike said, you know,
Speaker 1: they're just very anti Judeo-Christian legislation. What what does it
Speaker 1: mean to support them? Like we support them in the
Speaker 1: wars that they fight and we say that we're on
Speaker 1: their side. I mean, what do we, what does support mean?
Speaker 2: Well, for one thing, when you look at the different
Speaker 2: regimes and now we're getting off into, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: another topic as well. My, my question was really on
Speaker 2: Um, are, are you, as the senior pastor of Calvary
Speaker 2: Chapel Costa Mesa capitulating off of the, the covenant with Israel,
Speaker 2: but to answer your question, to support what it means
Speaker 2: to support them is in this issue even right now
Speaker 2: with Iran.
Speaker 2: The Islamic Republic of Iran under the Ayatollah regime is
Speaker 2: an evil republic. I mean, you look at the genocide
Speaker 2: that has come out of them, they're the largest.
Speaker 2: Um, terrorist group in the in the world right now,
Speaker 2: and they're sponsoring all these different proxies of Hamas and
Speaker 2: um
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I think you're actually,
Speaker 2: I can,
Speaker 1: if I can just say,
Speaker 2: I think so I think for one thing Char was
Speaker 2: interpreting the promise that you keep bringing up in Genesis
Speaker 2: to Abraham to what Paul said in Galatians 3, so
Speaker 2: I'd recommend go back, look at that, because it sounds
Speaker 2: like you're assuming the seed that is to be blessed
Speaker 2: and everyone should blessed is the nation of Israel. That's
Speaker 2: what it sounds like you're saying, except the only problem
Speaker 2: with that is Paul disagrees with you.
Speaker 2: In Galatians 3, he said, the seed is not plural,
Speaker 2: it is singular, and he's, he's very clear here. It
Speaker 2: refers to Christ in and through Christ, all the nations
Speaker 2: of the world will be blessed. So that's what Charles
Speaker 2: is doing, but that's not what I wanted to address.
Speaker 2: You keep bringing up the word forever. I, do you
Speaker 2: know what the Hebrew word is for that?
Speaker 2: Back to back to the Galatians comment just real quick. Well,
Speaker 2: let me, well, no, I, I need to address this
Speaker 2: because you keep bringing it up and it hasn't been addressed.
Speaker 2: The word is Ola, and if you think that means forever,
Speaker 2: that also applies to animal sacrifice. Do you continue to
Speaker 2: do animal sacrifices today cause it says Ola forever.
Speaker 2: Well, I think in the um millennial kingdom there will
Speaker 2: be animal sacrifice. This is the remembrance of Christ. So yes.
Speaker 2: So, Christ, the final sacrifice who fulfills it. He's the last,
Speaker 2: he is the Passover lamb but you think they're gonna
Speaker 2: keep doing animal sacrifices after Jesus has
Speaker 2: Set to tell this diet is finished.
Speaker 2: In the millennial kingdom, I think there'll be animal sacrifice. OK, well, OK,
Speaker 2: do you do animal sacrifices now? No, of course not.
Speaker 2: Christ is the, the finished work. OK, but, but how
Speaker 2: do you say of course when it says forever?
Speaker 2: You need to do these things forever.
Speaker 2: In the Torah.
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like you're, you're getting argumentative. I don't
Speaker 2: think that no, no, not at all. I'm being exegetical.
Speaker 2: It literally, here's what I find people don't know, especially
Speaker 2: if you haven't studied Hebrew. The word olam sometimes can
Speaker 2: be translated forever. It also means in perpetuity, for example.
Speaker 2: In the various laws in Exodus and Leviticus, somebody will
Speaker 2: become someone's slave, Olam, forever. Does that literally mean an eternity?
Speaker 2: We're gonna be the slaves of different people. It says
Speaker 2: you will offer these animal sacrifices, you will observe the
Speaker 2: various feasts, Olam, forever. What theologians acknowledge.
Speaker 2: Scholars of Hebrew, it means in perpetuity. In other words,
Speaker 2: as long as the covenant is in effect, these things
Speaker 2: will be observed. The point Chahar was making is the
Speaker 2: Mosaic covenant, the Abrahammock covenant. Paul would say actually in
Speaker 2: 2 Corinthians, all the promises of God, by the way,
Speaker 2: the word all means all.
Speaker 2: are fulfilled in Jesus. They are yes and amen. Paul
Speaker 2: says that the seed back in Genesis, that it sounds
Speaker 2: like you're thinking, is the ethnic nation of Israel, the
Speaker 2: apostle Paul, who was actually a member of ethnic Israel,
Speaker 2: said it refers to Christ. So I think there's a
Speaker 2: little misunderstanding of what Olam means in Hebrew, and how
Speaker 2: it's used regularly throughout the Torah.
Speaker 1: Very good. David, thank you for your phone call today
Speaker 1: here on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. So yeah, our homework
Speaker 1: tonight is to read Galatians 3. Let's do it. OK,
Speaker 1: so you guys do want to talk about other stuff.
Speaker 1: Here's Debbie and Mission Viejo. Welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much. Um, there is a
Speaker 1: gentleman who's on my, uh, Facebook feed, who keeps popping up,
Speaker 1: and he, uh, discusses a lot about creation and how
Speaker 1: science backs the Bible. And I find it very interesting,
Speaker 1: but the last time I found him on my feed,
Speaker 1: he was talking about how important it was for us
Speaker 1: to share the good news, share the gospel with others.
Speaker 1: And which I totally agree with. But he says if
Speaker 1: we neglect to do that, or we don't take the
Speaker 1: opportunity to do that, that, um, if that person goes
Speaker 1: to hell, it's partially our fault and that we will
Speaker 1: have to answer for that on judgment day. And
Speaker 1: The red flags started popping up, but I'm thinking, where
Speaker 1: in the scriptures would he get this idea? Um, so
Speaker 1: I just, I kind of already have a point of
Speaker 1: view on how I feel about that, but I just
Speaker 1: wanted to get a perspective, uh, from you gentlemen.
Speaker 1: All right, Char, we'll start with you.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm not sure which scripture that he
Speaker 1: is referring to. I mean, there are plenty of scriptures.
Speaker 1: Right, to talk to us just about the importance of
Speaker 1: our faith actually having feet, you know, like that we
Speaker 1: walk these things out, that they aren't just words that
Speaker 1: we affirm, you know, in our pews, but that we
Speaker 1: actually have a living faith and we make known the
Speaker 1: kingdom of God. And I, I think, you know, as
Speaker 1: we look at the New Testament and especially the story
Speaker 1: there in the Gospel in the book of Acts, like
Speaker 1: this was just what the Christian community did, right?
Speaker 1: The way that they lived was a witness, a testament
Speaker 1: to the kingdom of God. The way that they spoke
Speaker 1: was they testified to what Jesus had done for them, right?
Speaker 1: It was all about God's kingdom, and the word that's
Speaker 1: used there in the Greek is that they would almost gossip,
Speaker 1: you know, the good news. It was just like, kind
Speaker 1: of the word on the street and everybody's talking about
Speaker 1: this message about God's kingdom, and it's like no other kingdom,
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: And so it was just part of their life to
Speaker 1: proclaim the kingdom of God, both through their words and
Speaker 1: through their deeds. And of course, there are many scriptures
Speaker 1: that talk about the importance that our deeds match what
Speaker 1: we proclaim, and that the day of judgment will reveal
Speaker 1: what is genuine or disingenuine.
Speaker 1: And I think, if I could, you know, I, I
Speaker 1: don't know this guy, I don't know what he says,
Speaker 1: but I think sometimes, uh, pastors and maybe evangelists, we
Speaker 1: kind of camp out on that day of judgment, and unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I think we make it this kind of threat to Christians, and,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of try to scare people, it's scared
Speaker 1: tactics into evangelism, but I don't, we don't really see
Speaker 1: Jesus doing that.
Speaker 1: What we see Jesus doing and even the apostles doing,
Speaker 1: is they want us to be introspective. They want us
Speaker 1: to know that we know that we belong to God.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, they give us these tools for examining,
Speaker 1: are we really part of God's people? And if we are, well,
Speaker 1: there should be this kind of love for God, and
Speaker 1: this is what it looks like. There should be this
Speaker 1: love of neighbor, and this is what it looks like.
Speaker 1: There should be forgiveness, cause God has forgiven us, there
Speaker 1: should be peace because God has made peace with us.
Speaker 1: So there are these tools for self-examination.
Speaker 1: The fruit, we examine that in our lives to know
Speaker 1: that we are with Jesus, so that on that day,
Speaker 1: you know, John talks about this in his epistle, we
Speaker 1: will see him, we will be like him, we will
Speaker 1: see him as we as as he is, and everyone
Speaker 1: who has his hope within them purifies himself just as
Speaker 1: he is pure, right? There's actually an anticipation and an
Speaker 1: excitement for the day, not a fear.
Speaker 1: And so, uh, you know, I, I am one of
Speaker 1: those ones that I wanna lean into that anticipation. I
Speaker 1: want to lean into that excitement. And I think the
Speaker 1: warnings of scripture are there for those people who feel
Speaker 1: that they are safe in the sense of like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't really have to do anything, and I don't
Speaker 1: really have to abide by that. And, you know, I,
Speaker 1: I believed in, cause I said this prayer, and yeah,
Speaker 1: of course I trust God, but my life looks this way.
Speaker 1: The warnings of scripture are to be applied to them.
Speaker 1: And those introspections are tool for them, and these passages
Speaker 1: would actually be warning passages for them to motivate them,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. I think we have to be
Speaker 1: careful how we use this, and even
Speaker 1: The writers of the New Testament talk about this, you know,
Speaker 1: we need to discern this stuff. There's some kinds of
Speaker 1: people that you want to have a sensitivity because they
Speaker 1: have a sensitive conscience and you don't want to come
Speaker 1: down heavy-handed. There are other people who are hard-hearted and
Speaker 1: they're blind, and you need to be firm with them, like, hey,
Speaker 1: you are.
Speaker 1: Resisting what the Lord is doing, and if you do
Speaker 1: not turn to the Lord, these are the consequences that
Speaker 1: are gonna ensue, and you're gonna stand before Christ. And
Speaker 1: so I think as pastors and leaders, we need to
Speaker 1: discern how to rightly use the word to motivate this
Speaker 1: life of faithfully following Jesus. Mike, any thoughts on this
Speaker 1: before you make your comment about the previous call, the
Speaker 1: other comment you wanted to add?
Speaker 2: No, no, I thought Char wrapped that up very well. Yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I just, I just, you know, the thing is, especially
Speaker 2: with the whole Israel conversation, we're not speaking into a vacuum, right?
Speaker 2: There is all kinds of current event stuff happening right now,
Speaker 2: social stuff, political stuff, military stuff, all of that.
Speaker 2: And so I recognize, again, as a public communicator, the
Speaker 2: goal of communicating well is not simply to say what
Speaker 2: I wanna say, although that takes effort, but to anticipate
Speaker 2: how people are hearing you. And I think the problem with, like,
Speaker 2: even the discussion we're having exegetically, like I hope all
Speaker 2: Christians would not be against going back to the Bible
Speaker 2: and making sure our interpretations are correct.
Speaker 2: So if somebody proposes a system, well, I've always heard that, OK,
Speaker 2: but if biblically we go back to the Bible and
Speaker 2: find out it's wrong, I hope you don't push back
Speaker 2: on that or say, oh, I'm not, I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: accept that, or that's bad. Somebody could use the correct
Speaker 2: biblical interpretation to do something bad. So hopefully we can
Speaker 2: have in in-house, as Christians, conversations about what the Bible says,
Speaker 2: always come back to it, be open.
Speaker 2: To being corrected by scripture, if we're wrong, but, having
Speaker 2: said that, I recognize all kinds of people could be
Speaker 2: listening online, on the radio and stuff, and I just
Speaker 2: wanna make sure because, obviously, as a Christian,
Speaker 2: Anti-Semitism is a sin. It's wrong, because I think some
Speaker 2: people get the idea if you don't interpret script scriptures
Speaker 2: in such a way that we think Genesis 12 so
Speaker 2: applies to this and this and that, and unless you
Speaker 2: do that, which is an exegetical question, then you, you
Speaker 2: have to let anti-Semitism go and all this.
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. That's a false dichotomy. I can absolutely and
Speaker 2: have all the tools I need to stand against anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2: It is sinful and wrong. On the one hand, we
Speaker 2: can say, well, that's true of any people group, right?
Speaker 2: We wouldn't want anybody of any ethnicity, uh, being persecuted
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. But I will say this, and
Speaker 2: I'll make this further point. Obviously, I think many of
Speaker 2: us are even more sensitive.
Speaker 2: Uh, to guard against anti-Semitism because we live within a
Speaker 2: century of the Holocaust, and we've seen the vitriol and
Speaker 2: the hate that has come from the world and unfortunately
Speaker 2: from some Christian circles, and I think it's just important
Speaker 2: that we make a distinction between exegesis of biblical texts
Speaker 2: wanting to be faithful to God.
Speaker 2: But never saying, even if this interpretation is right, and
Speaker 2: the one you previously thought was wrong, whatever, that's never
Speaker 2: going to be a case for going for being anti-Semitic
Speaker 2: or anything like that or suggesting that Israel doesn't have
Speaker 2: a right to exist as a nation today and all
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: I think that's clearly wrong. I can stand for that
Speaker 2: on a human basis, humanitarian basis, as well as a
Speaker 2: Christian ethical moral basis without necessarily betting the farm on
Speaker 2: ignoring certain scriptures or twisting them or ignoring the new covenant,
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. So,
Speaker 2: That was kind of my disclaimer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got
Speaker 1: out there. We've talked about this before, but, you know,
Speaker 1: when it comes to nation states and protecting their borders,
Speaker 1: and this question right now, you know, of this preemptive
Speaker 1: strike that Israel made on Iran, we're talking about warring
Speaker 1: nations here, and then we're bringing theology into it and
Speaker 1: Old Testament questions, like you said, you know, into these
Speaker 1: modern things like we believe that nations have a right
Speaker 1: to protect their people.
Speaker 1: How they go about doing that. I, I don't what
Speaker 1: I was trying to get to earlier, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's our responsibility to weigh in every single time on
Speaker 1: this was good, this was bad, this is right, this
Speaker 1: is wrong, and I think if you're looking for that
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, theological backing from scripture, you're not
Speaker 1: gonna find it, you know. Well, who does God bless,
Speaker 1: you know, when you bomb them? Like, you're not gonna
Speaker 1: find that answer in scripture.
Speaker 1: God is not for bombing any people, right? And so,
Speaker 1: we understand that there are these wars going on there,
Speaker 1: but we're unfortunately bringing these theological questions into it and saying, like, basically,
Speaker 1: does God condone this? Is God for the bombing of
Speaker 1: the Iranian people? I would say no.
Speaker 1: Like, are there, is there a part of my brain
Speaker 1: that says, do I understand that Israel's government is afraid
Speaker 1: of Iran having nuclear weapons? Yes, and preemptively striking them. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's what nations do in order to protect their people.
Speaker 1: Does God want this?
Speaker 1: No, like, read the Bible, God wants peace. God wants
Speaker 1: to heal the world of all of these wars and conflicts,
Speaker 1: and he's gonna do that one day through Jesus Messiah.
Speaker 1: You know, so, again, this stuff is very complicated. There's
Speaker 1: so many political layers to it, but I, I just love, Mike,
Speaker 1: what you're doing there, like, just bringing us back to like,
Speaker 1: the right exeg Jesus helps us land on, we're supposed
Speaker 1: to be about Jesus. The Bible is very clear that
Speaker 1: all of these things have been fulfilled in and through him,
Speaker 1: and so, let's keep our eyes on him.
Speaker 1: And let's allow Jesus, his life, his death, his resurrection,
Speaker 1: his ascension, his current reigning over all things, his renewal
Speaker 1: of all things, to help us interpret how to live
Speaker 1: in this world as representatives of Christ.
Speaker 2: Well, and to your point, part of the problem with
Speaker 2: weighing in, let, let's even hypothetically say it's a Christian
Speaker 2: duty to weigh in on every single social political thing
Speaker 2: that happens. There's still the question of accuracy of facts,
Speaker 2: you know, and I think in the modern world with
Speaker 2: the internet, a lot of people believe they've got 100% truth.
Speaker 2: From their news source, their web source, it could be,
Speaker 2: could be Fox, could be CNN, it could be what,
Speaker 2: you know, some aggregate thing could be an underground website,
Speaker 2: you know, in somebody's grandma's basement, whatever it is. And people,
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess for me, I'm personally more skeptical
Speaker 2: of news sources. Again, there's ones I do believe, uh,
Speaker 2: I'm not totally agnostic, but I, I, I guess there's
Speaker 2: some I believe are more truthful than others, but I,
Speaker 2: I don't believe anyone's unbiased. I believe everyone has an
Speaker 2: angle of some kind, and I also believe
Speaker 2: There's no one that has 100% of the truth all
Speaker 2: the time. Uh, the Bible is the only thing I
Speaker 2: know that's 100% true, literally, and, and that's the only
Speaker 2: thing I know is 100% true. So I think just being,
Speaker 2: being humble and cautious in making
Speaker 2: Weighty moral judgments on things that personally, you actually have
Speaker 2: no real firsthand knowledge. We're just going off of whatever
Speaker 2: we're being fed. And if you're a conservative, obviously, you
Speaker 2: feel like you're conservative news source is pretty accurate. If
Speaker 2: you're a liberal, you feel like your liberal news source
Speaker 2: is accurate, and I feel like both of them are
Speaker 2: actually kind of wrong in the sense they're trusting way
Speaker 2: too much in what's just being spoon fed to people.
Speaker 2: So I think just being careful about that in general
Speaker 2: is an important thing to do as well.
Speaker 1: So we had a caller who said that she agreed
Speaker 1: with David, the person who called in and everything he said, yeah,
Speaker 1: and she said that she thinks Pastor Chuck Smith would
Speaker 1: agree with David. What do you think?
Speaker 1: Well, he's not here for us to ask him, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think Chuck probably sees things clearly now,
Speaker 1: you know, my grandpa, he had a lot of opinions,
Speaker 1: but I know this, that he was always, uh, trying
Speaker 1: to subject his opinion to scripture. And I know that
Speaker 1: he believed that Jesus was the fulfillment of Israel. I
Speaker 1: know that. Um, I heard him preach many, many times
Speaker 1: said under his teaching, and so I know that he
Speaker 1: agrees with Mike and I on.
Speaker 1: Uh, the exegesis of Genesis and Galatians.
Speaker 1: And yet, you know, my grandpa was, yeah, very, uh,
Speaker 1: he had such a, a heart for uh the Jewish
Speaker 1: people and for the land of Israel and went there many,
Speaker 1: many times, and he had many, many friendships there. And
Speaker 1: yet he did not, you know, support everything that Israel did.
Speaker 1: You know, my grandpa used his mind and he used
Speaker 1: the scripture to discern those things. So, yeah, and again,
Speaker 1: he's not here for us to ask specifically.
Speaker 1: You know, if he would have, if he gives, you know,
Speaker 1: today the modern Israelites full support. Yeah, Mike.
Speaker 2: And and again, as great as someone was, whether it's
Speaker 2: Pastor Chuck in our lifetime or, uh, Martin Luther or
Speaker 2: a Charles Spurgeon, whoever, to be honest, if you're a
Speaker 2: Protestant evangelical, it comes down to the Bible and you
Speaker 2: know what, great men, great and wonderful men, Christian men,
Speaker 2: Christian women.
Speaker 2: can be mistaken. So at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it's always what does the Bible say? And if the
Speaker 2: Bible says, inspired by the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul,
Speaker 2: that the seed is singular and it's Christ, I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna try to find ways to argue out of that.
Speaker 1: Very good, man. What a program. It's gonna be archived
Speaker 1: a little bit later on if you want to hear
Speaker 1: it again. Thank you so much for all of you
Speaker 1: who participated. We will be back tomorrow between 3 and
Speaker 1: 40 p.m. Pacific time. If we didn't get to your
Speaker 1: call today, please try again tomorrow. For Char Broderson and
Speaker 1: Mike Chattick, I'm Brian Perez, and thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening and watching Pastor's Perspective.