WEBVTT - Pastors' Perspective-10/21/26 0:00:20.299 --> 0:00:25.659 Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. It's Wednesday, and we 0:00:25.659 --> 0:00:28.020 are here live in the studio, ready to answer the 0:00:28.020 --> 0:00:31.099 questions that you have about God's word, the Christian faith, 0:00:31.179 --> 0:00:33.578 just about anything that's on your mind, grab an open line, 0:00:33.690 --> 0:00:39.519 give us a call. Gonna be here till 4 at 888-564-6173. 0:00:39.739 --> 0:00:42.209 If you're watching online, thanks so much for watching. You 0:00:42.209 --> 0:00:43.979 can call in to the number's right there on the 0:00:43.979 --> 0:00:45.859 bottom of your screen. We're on Facebook. 0:00:45.952 --> 0:00:48.632 Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram right now. We've also got a 0:00:48.632 --> 0:00:50.593 QR code there on the bottom of your screen. If 0:00:50.593 --> 0:00:52.992 you scan that code, it'll take you to the pastor's 0:00:52.992 --> 0:00:57.472 perspective page at Kwave.com, where you can submit a question 0:00:57.472 --> 0:01:00.913 using that form there. You can also submit questions on 0:01:00.913 --> 0:01:04.712 the pastor's perspective Instagram by DMing us, or on the 0:01:04.712 --> 0:01:08.472 Pastor's perspective Facebook page by using Messenger, but we love 0:01:08.472 --> 0:01:10.382 to hear the sound of your voice. Give us a 0:01:10.382 --> 0:01:11.632 call at 888-5. 0:01:11.866 --> 0:01:16.645 646173. Answering your questions today, we've got Brian Broderson, the 0:01:16.645 --> 0:01:21.005 pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and Dave Keene, 0:01:21.166 --> 0:01:24.525 a professor at the Talbot School of Theology at Viola 0:01:24.524 --> 0:01:27.946 University and also a teaching pastor at the Fields Church. 0:01:28.205 --> 0:01:29.806 I got it right for once in 0:01:29.806 --> 0:01:31.196 Oceanside Carlsbad. 0:01:31.235 --> 0:01:31.726 That's OK. 0:01:31.806 --> 0:01:34.055 I got your back. Yeah, it's so good to be 0:01:34.056 --> 0:01:34.736 with you guys again. 0:01:34.845 --> 0:01:35.725 Yeah, so what's 0:01:35.726 --> 0:01:37.405 new with you guys? It's been a while. 0:01:38.688 --> 0:01:41.089 It's been a while. I haven't seen you in the 0:01:41.089 --> 0:01:43.969 studio in I know it's been ages. I was here 0:01:43.969 --> 0:01:48.529 yesterday and you were not. Um, yeah, so I got 0:01:48.530 --> 0:01:52.299 home on Friday from, you know, literally months and months of, 0:01:52.450 --> 0:01:55.648 of being gone, and, uh, yeah, so it's good to 0:01:55.649 --> 0:01:58.409 be back in the studio. Cheryl and I are, well, 0:01:58.450 --> 0:02:00.249 I've been sick since I got home, so I'm kind 0:02:00.250 --> 0:02:00.788 of just. 0:02:01.490 --> 0:02:03.969 You know, bossing her around, telling her, make me food 0:02:03.969 --> 0:02:07.609 and you know, pack those boxes. How is that different 0:02:07.609 --> 0:02:09.880 from a regular day? No, I'm joking. Well, she bosses 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.589 me around on a regular, that's true. That's true. No, um, yeah, I, 0:02:14.289 --> 0:02:18.400 you know, we're in the process of, uh, putting our 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:22.760 house up for sale and looking to move to, um, 0:02:22.949 --> 0:02:26.130 South Carolina. So yeah, so we've been there, you know, 0:02:26.290 --> 0:02:28.168 for quite some time, and, um. 0:02:29.130 --> 0:02:32.049 Yeah, kind of, you know, finally got everything done, you know, 0:02:32.130 --> 0:02:34.090 of course I was in Connecticut for those months and 0:02:34.090 --> 0:02:36.730 then I was in South Carolina, so we made, we, 0:02:36.829 --> 0:02:39.730 you know, we made the move with, with our daughters, uh, 0:02:39.969 --> 0:02:44.130 from Connecticut down to South Carolina, and they're kind of 0:02:44.130 --> 0:02:46.130 settled now, even though my daughter called me a few 0:02:46.130 --> 0:02:47.909 minutes ago saying, Dad, where's the shovel? 0:02:49.859 --> 0:02:51.960 I said, I don't know, maybe the construction guy took it. 0:02:51.980 --> 0:02:54.409 She texted me back 10 minutes later. Kelsey, who's my 0:02:54.409 --> 0:02:57.939 other daughter, she goes, Oh, Kelsey had the shovel. This 0:02:57.939 --> 0:03:01.499 is a strange conversation. Two daughters asking about, asking about 0:03:01.499 --> 0:03:04.699 the shovel, and one has the shovel. Yeah, so anyway, uh, 0:03:04.809 --> 0:03:08.010 we're here and, um, it's good to be back. It's 0:03:08.010 --> 0:03:10.340 good to be in the studio and not in some 0:03:10.340 --> 0:03:13.820 strange room somewhere where people ask all kinds of strange 0:03:13.820 --> 0:03:16.189 questions about the decor. Yes, yes. 0:03:16.969 --> 0:03:20.510 So there were many questions about that, but yes, good 0:03:20.510 --> 0:03:22.510 to have you here, and uh, I heard you mention 0:03:22.510 --> 0:03:24.980 something about you don't like the, the background, you know, 0:03:25.150 --> 0:03:27.139 I mean, but we've had that for years, you know that, 0:03:27.150 --> 0:03:29.059 I know, but, but you know, it's time for an 0:03:29.059 --> 0:03:32.790 upgrade doing it on the doing the Zoom thing, of 0:03:32.790 --> 0:03:35.499 course I see, yeah, I never think about it here, 0:03:35.590 --> 0:03:39.130 but just as you guys are looking at my background 0:03:39.549 --> 0:03:42.270 when I'm on Zoom, so I'm looking at your background 0:03:42.270 --> 0:03:43.029 and I'm thinking. 0:03:43.409 --> 0:03:47.889 You get that crummy industrial building there with the, you know, 0:03:47.969 --> 0:03:49.230 all the um 0:03:49.939 --> 0:03:52.999 Air conditioners on top of it. Those telephone poles. So 0:03:53.380 --> 0:03:56.859 I'm taking up, uh, an offering to get you a 0:03:56.859 --> 0:03:57.969 good backdrop. Nice, 0:03:58.340 --> 0:03:59.850 a good green screen. Yeah, 0:03:59.939 --> 0:04:02.820 a good green screen. That'd be awesome with, uh, I 0:04:02.820 --> 0:04:05.939 think penguins probably kind of an arctic. Yes, yeah, I'm 0:04:05.939 --> 0:04:07.520 an arctic. That would be the best. Yeah, that'd be 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.100 the best. That's your thing. So yes, that is my thing, Dave. 0:04:10.180 --> 0:04:10.930 What's new with you? 0:04:11.189 --> 0:04:14.260 Uh, just enjoying the semester at Bible University. We're in 0:04:14.260 --> 0:04:15.600 the thick of the fall and 0:04:16.058 --> 0:04:19.619 Having fun and uh my son's foundation, God is continuing 0:04:19.620 --> 0:04:23.020 to bless and expand what, what we're able to do 0:04:23.020 --> 0:04:27.299 and coming alongside new young youth pastors. Um, it's just 0:04:27.299 --> 0:04:30.620 amazing to see God's goodness in all of that. So, yeah, 0:04:30.690 --> 0:04:34.289 we're having a great time. Uh, just spoke last week 0:04:34.289 --> 0:04:36.819 at a conference at Mariner's Church with the Download Youth 0:04:36.818 --> 0:04:39.979 Ministry folks. Had a chance to talk about grieving with hope. 0:04:40.460 --> 0:04:41.400 And so that was a 0:04:41.770 --> 0:04:44.650 It was a good experience just to be present and 0:04:44.859 --> 0:04:50.759 sharing about God's, God's hope in our lives when tragedy strikes. So, yeah, 0:04:50.889 --> 0:04:52.749 lots of opportunities to be sharing the story 0:04:52.750 --> 0:04:53.430 of Adam. 0:04:54.969 --> 0:04:59.650 All right guys, 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We're 0:04:59.650 --> 0:05:02.210 gonna start with a question that was submitted online. This 0:05:02.210 --> 0:05:06.409 one is from Rosalba in Irvine, who asks, I want 0:05:06.409 --> 0:05:08.889 to know about the Bible, what it says about forgiveness. 0:05:09.049 --> 0:05:11.189 God has placed it on my heart to call people 0:05:11.190 --> 0:05:15.279 from my past to ask for forgiveness. I've written messages, 0:05:16.159 --> 0:05:19.119 left voicemails, but they don't answer back. What would you 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:20.490 guys recommend? Because I don't want to 0:05:20.779 --> 0:05:23.949 be like Sarah in the Bible glancing back into the past. 0:05:24.060 --> 0:05:26.889 How do I pray to move forward? Was it Sarah? 0:05:26.979 --> 0:05:30.020 That was Lot's wife, I think, yeah. Uh, but to 0:05:30.020 --> 0:05:32.539 also be kind and compassionate if I ever run to 0:05:32.539 --> 0:05:34.698 people from my past, because I know in the Bible 0:05:34.698 --> 0:05:38.138 it says to forgive 70 x 7. Brian, what would 0:05:38.139 --> 0:05:40.900 you say to Roselda? Well, we had, we had a 0:05:40.900 --> 0:05:43.879 question that I think was kind of similar to this yesterday, and, and, 0:05:43.940 --> 0:05:45.560 you know, the idea was, do I 0:05:46.190 --> 0:05:51.039 need to go, um, confess my sins to everybody that 0:05:51.039 --> 0:05:55.039 I've ever offended or sinned against. And, um, my answer 0:05:55.039 --> 0:06:01.669 yesterday was no. Um, many times that's not even a possibility. Uh, 0:06:01.878 --> 0:06:04.520 but if it, if it is possible and there is 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.520 a sense that you ought to do it, then you 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.318 probably should follow up on that. So, of course, the 0:06:10.318 --> 0:06:12.500 Bible does, as you mentioned, it does have a lot 0:06:12.500 --> 0:06:13.970 to say about forgiveness and 0:06:14.579 --> 0:06:18.460 Of course, the primary thing, the wonderful thing is that 0:06:18.460 --> 0:06:21.960 God has forgiven us. But then because God has forgiven us, 0:06:22.060 --> 0:06:25.500 he wants us to forgive others as well. So, you know, 0:06:25.900 --> 0:06:30.219 contacting people, um, writing letters, I, I don't think there's 0:06:30.219 --> 0:06:32.780 anything wrong with that. I think in some cases it 0:06:32.779 --> 0:06:37.460 could be very, um, helpful and healing. Um, do you 0:06:37.460 --> 0:06:39.818 have to do it? I don't think you have to 0:06:39.818 --> 0:06:41.979 do it, but if you feel compelled to do it, 0:06:42.099 --> 0:06:42.430 then 0:06:42.948 --> 0:06:46.359 I think it's fine. And, and yet I also wouldn't 0:06:46.359 --> 0:06:49.828 feel like, OK, I didn't get a response, so I 0:06:49.829 --> 0:06:52.430 need to write another letter or I need to leave 0:06:52.430 --> 0:06:55.590 another message. I think you, you did it, and then 0:06:55.589 --> 0:06:58.029 you just kind of leave that in God's hands. What 0:06:58.029 --> 0:06:58.710 do you think, Dave? 0:06:59.109 --> 0:07:01.949 Yeah, you know, scripture is clear that, you know, if 0:07:01.948 --> 0:07:04.568 we're in the midst of worship and God reminds us 0:07:04.750 --> 0:07:08.869 of an offense we have against someone that we know 0:07:08.870 --> 0:07:10.400 we're in the wrong to leave. 0:07:10.799 --> 0:07:15.970 Your moment of worship and to go seek to be reconciled. So, 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.680 God does care about this, but he also doesn't make 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.999 the outcome our responsibility, you know, Scripture in Romans 12 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.280 talks about live at peace with each other as as 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.060 far as possible with you. So there are times where 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.359 you're going to seek out to be reconciled and the 0:07:33.359 --> 0:07:36.359 other person doesn't want it, and that, and then you're OK. 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.199 You've been released from your obligation. So, 0:07:39.919 --> 0:07:42.289 Definitely, I think if God puts something upon your heart 0:07:42.289 --> 0:07:46.410 that you know has not been forgiven, has not been reconciled, um, 0:07:46.490 --> 0:07:50.509 you have some ownership in this to, to, to call 0:07:50.569 --> 0:07:54.000 and say I'm sorry. I think that's the, um, that's 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.809 when you do this. You know, the idea of 70 0:07:56.810 --> 0:07:58.759 x 7 is really more the idea of like if 0:07:58.759 --> 0:08:02.889 someone keeps offending you, well, you keep saying I forgive 0:08:02.889 --> 0:08:05.789 you and seek to bring about reconciliation. But I do 0:08:05.789 --> 0:08:06.429 think God. 0:08:06.849 --> 0:08:10.139 Um, leaves the results with him and not upon us. 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:13.799 Rosalba, thank you so much for sending in your question 0:08:13.799 --> 0:08:19.919 through the pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com. 888-564-6173 is our 0:08:19.919 --> 0:08:23.430 number and um let's go to the phones. Here is 0:08:23.669 --> 0:08:26.770 Rod and Menefee. Welcome to the show, Rod. Thanks for 0:08:26.770 --> 0:08:29.729 calling 888-564-6173. 0:08:31.599 --> 0:08:34.348 Oh hi, how are you doing? Doing well. How are you? 0:08:35.710 --> 0:08:38.000 OK, so I have a question. I'm, I'm doing well. 0:08:38.079 --> 0:08:39.520 I have a question. I listen to you guys every 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:41.879 day even though it's pre-recorded, but I still go to 0:08:41.879 --> 0:08:44.800 work and I always listen. So is that a 3 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:45.840 in the morning that you listen? 0:08:47.259 --> 0:08:50.179 Yes, I work. I build freeways, so I'm, I'm up 0:08:50.179 --> 0:08:53.160 on that time. Oh wow, you build the freeways, one 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.319 of those guys that builds the freeways. Thank you. 0:08:57.489 --> 0:08:59.420 Are you the one that's gonna be building that stretch 0:08:59.420 --> 0:09:02.679 of PCH that's falling apart because that's like my favorite 0:09:03.059 --> 0:09:07.129 stretch of, of the beach there we just finished in, in, uh, 0:09:07.139 --> 0:09:09.900 in LA on Crenshaw. We've been doing a lot of 0:09:09.900 --> 0:09:12.379 construction right there and right now I'm coming down from 0:09:12.379 --> 0:09:16.770 the grapevine. Wow, on the grapevine because it's raining, yeah. 0:09:17.759 --> 0:09:20.239 So, anyway, my question that I have, so we used 0:09:20.239 --> 0:09:21.920 to go to a Catholic church, you know, but I 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:22.839 like Christian church. 0:09:23.619 --> 0:09:28.209 And I just got baptized. I go to Cornerstone and Murrieta, and, uh, 0:09:28.300 --> 0:09:30.340 so I always do that, that, you know, like, uh, 0:09:30.499 --> 0:09:31.850 before I go to sleep, the sign of the cross, 0:09:31.939 --> 0:09:34.100 you know, and I know the Father, the sign of 0:09:34.100 --> 0:09:36.679 the Holy Spirit, and it, it makes me feel good, 0:09:37.139 --> 0:09:39.770 you know, or every time because I got used to that, like, uh, 0:09:39.929 --> 0:09:41.578 if I see a pass by the church, if I 0:09:41.578 --> 0:09:42.920 see the cross, then I would do the sign of 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.059 the cross because I was taught to do that, and 0:09:46.059 --> 0:09:47.720 I was wondering as a, as a Christian. 0:09:48.759 --> 0:09:51.079 Do we still need to do that, or I mean, 0:09:51.199 --> 0:09:55.319 is it OK to do it? I, I, I, I 0:09:55.319 --> 0:09:58.530 don't know because I feel weird not doing. I mean, I, I, 0:09:58.629 --> 0:10:00.960 I don't know, not weird, but it just it feel like, uh, uh, 0:10:01.078 --> 0:10:02.879 you know, I mean, it's. 0:10:03.970 --> 0:10:05.828 So it's gonna be mad because I don't, I don't, 0:10:05.910 --> 0:10:07.730 I don't know and I'm just confused on that. 0:10:09.100 --> 0:10:13.319 So, uh, Rod, I grew up Catholic as well, and, um, 0:10:13.340 --> 0:10:16.100 went to Sunday school and things, and after we'd pray, 0:10:16.179 --> 0:10:17.920 we'd make the sign of the cross. So then starting 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.270 in 5th grade, I went to a Christian school, and, 0:10:21.420 --> 0:10:24.139 you know, we'd start our day in prayer or whatever, and, uh, 0:10:24.970 --> 0:10:27.809 Uh, the first day of school after the prayer was done, 0:10:27.970 --> 0:10:29.650 I did the sign of the cross, but I noticed 0:10:29.650 --> 0:10:31.319 nobody around did it, and I just put my hand 0:10:31.319 --> 0:10:33.009 down like, we're not supposed to do that here. What's 0:10:33.009 --> 0:10:36.689 going on? It was just weird. But anyway, so Brian Broderson, 0:10:36.770 --> 0:10:39.290 what do you say to Rod? Well, Rod, I, I 0:10:39.290 --> 0:10:41.670 just want to say like I love. 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.679 The tenderness of your heart toward, like you said, you know, 0:10:46.759 --> 0:10:48.599 you see a church or you see a cross, you know, 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:50.189 you make the sign of the cross. I think that's, 0:10:50.239 --> 0:10:54.280 that's beautiful. And is there anything wrong with it? Absolutely not. 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:59.189 But if you are in a place where you feel like, well, 0:10:59.239 --> 0:11:02.239 if I don't do it, that's gonna be bad or 0:11:02.239 --> 0:11:04.960 God's gonna be upset with me or I'm not gonna receive, 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:06.599 you know, he's not gonna answer my prayer if I 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.720 didn't do it, that's when it crosses over into kind 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:11.860 of a legalistic thing that's not gonna be. 0:11:12.129 --> 0:11:15.629 Uh, it's just not going to be helpful and it's unnecessary. So, 0:11:16.410 --> 0:11:19.650 so I would say, uh, doing it is fine, as 0:11:19.650 --> 0:11:22.328 long as you're just doing it out of that, like 0:11:22.328 --> 0:11:25.470 you expressed, you know, that, that respect and that thankfulness, 0:11:25.770 --> 0:11:29.290 but just don't be feeling like, oh, no, I forgot 0:11:29.290 --> 0:11:30.999 to do the sign of the cross and I, I 0:11:30.999 --> 0:11:34.170 wonder if God's upset. That's where you cross over into 0:11:34.170 --> 0:11:36.550 an area that's no, you don't want to go there. 0:11:37.389 --> 0:11:41.689 Dave, so that, that's just, that's just for me, right? Yes, 0:11:42.110 --> 0:11:44.150 like when I'm by myself, you know, when 0:11:44.150 --> 0:11:44.749 I then, 0:11:44.828 --> 0:11:45.270 OK. 0:11:46.129 --> 0:11:49.129 Yeah, I think the practice that you're doing is to 0:11:49.129 --> 0:11:52.929 help your mind and your heart to focus more on 0:11:52.929 --> 0:11:55.889 the presence of God with you, and I think that's wonderful. 0:11:55.970 --> 0:11:59.889 I mean, that's what communion is whenever we participate in 0:11:59.889 --> 0:12:03.689 taking communion at church, it's remembering the, the grace and 0:12:03.689 --> 0:12:07.569 the love of Jesus, and we take this action to 0:12:07.569 --> 0:12:10.449 help our mind and our heart focus on what Christ 0:12:10.449 --> 0:12:11.710 has done for us. And so, 0:12:12.129 --> 0:12:16.689 The spiritual practices, they're, they're actions that help us remember, 0:12:16.770 --> 0:12:20.129 but they don't accomplish the work that Christ did. Christ's 0:12:20.129 --> 0:12:22.329 already accomplished that work on the cross, so we are 0:12:22.328 --> 0:12:25.389 simply remembering and honoring, um, 0:12:26.629 --> 0:12:30.220 God's presence in our life by these actions. So, do 0:12:30.220 --> 0:12:33.150 whatever practice is helping you focus on what God has 0:12:33.150 --> 0:12:33.590 for you. 0:12:34.980 --> 0:12:39.179 Well thank you very much. I appreciate that. All right, thanks, Rod. 0:12:39.259 --> 0:12:44.280 Thanks for calling. You know, I've, I've seen some people lately, um. 0:12:45.220 --> 0:12:48.170 In different church contexts who are just doing the sign 0:12:48.170 --> 0:12:51.819 of the cross and um I I think it was 0:12:51.819 --> 0:12:53.420 actually in South Carolina a couple of weeks ago I 0:12:53.420 --> 0:12:57.379 was at a church and you know I think people 0:12:57.379 --> 0:12:59.379 were walking up for communion and somebody was coming back 0:12:59.379 --> 0:13:01.059 and they just did it and I thought well you know. 0:13:01.809 --> 0:13:05.600 Yeah, good, sweet. It's almost like we should have more 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.078 of these. I think we think some of these things 0:13:08.078 --> 0:13:12.069 are so ritualistic or if we grew up Catholic, oh, 0:13:12.100 --> 0:13:14.040 it's part of my past, or I'm not supposed to 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.340 do that anymore. But to, to think, I mean, like 0:13:16.340 --> 0:13:18.719 Rod said, whenever he drives by a church, he does 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.839 the sign of the cross. What if we did something. 0:13:21.150 --> 0:13:24.179 Every time we drove by a church and just not 0:13:24.179 --> 0:13:25.829 necessarily the sign of the cross, although maybe it could 0:13:25.828 --> 0:13:29.030 be that, but just, just praying for the church, praying for, 0:13:29.189 --> 0:13:29.910 I mean, you know, 0:13:29.949 --> 0:13:30.059 I 0:13:30.059 --> 0:13:32.988 work with college students at Bio University and there's a 0:13:32.989 --> 0:13:36.210 number of students as they have come back. 0:13:37.009 --> 0:13:41.290 To, to God, really appreciate more of a liturgical service. 0:13:41.410 --> 0:13:43.139 And I think, you know, in some of our 0:13:44.249 --> 0:13:48.100 More recent backgrounds we've seen, you know, the interdenominational, the 0:13:48.100 --> 0:13:51.139 non-denominational church, you know, kind of where we've gotten away 0:13:51.139 --> 0:13:54.939 from a high liturgy, where there's kneeling and other things 0:13:54.939 --> 0:13:59.089 we've done, and, and young people actually are appreciating the, 0:13:59.139 --> 0:14:03.379 the reverence of these practices, and it helps them connect 0:14:03.379 --> 0:14:06.179 in a spiritual way to God that, that sometimes maybe 0:14:06.179 --> 0:14:10.600 that more of a free open worship experience wouldn't help create. 0:14:11.030 --> 0:14:14.748 And so I definitely have seen students embrace different liturgical 0:14:14.749 --> 0:14:19.230 practices that um are rich in history but maybe not 0:14:19.230 --> 0:14:22.869 practiced so much more in in our local contemporary churches. 0:14:23.230 --> 0:14:25.989 So I think we just have to view any ritual 0:14:25.989 --> 0:14:30.109 as a means to express our dependency on God and 0:14:30.110 --> 0:14:32.249 not to find, like you said, a legalistic. 0:14:32.970 --> 0:14:36.809 Uh, connection like I, God will do this because I 0:14:36.809 --> 0:14:37.369 did this, 0:14:37.489 --> 0:14:37.499 yeah, 0:14:37.770 --> 0:14:40.610 yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I, I've thought about this 0:14:40.610 --> 0:14:44.739 because I, of course, I've recognized a younger generation that does. 0:14:47.050 --> 0:14:49.759 Kind of long for more of an aesthetic, you know, 0:14:49.850 --> 0:14:53.809 more of an experience with a ritual or a liturgical 0:14:53.809 --> 0:14:55.809 kind of a thing. And I think, I, I think 0:14:55.809 --> 0:15:00.629 back to my own experience coming out of Catholicism and 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.889 uh coming out of a very dead Catholicism. So, you know, 0:15:04.999 --> 0:15:09.569 where we, we did all of the, all the liturgical stuff, 0:15:09.650 --> 0:15:11.989 but it just meant absolutely nothing. 0:15:12.619 --> 0:15:14.860 So coming out of that and then coming into a 0:15:14.860 --> 0:15:17.499 place where the Bible was like, oh my gosh, the 0:15:17.499 --> 0:15:19.660 Bible tells us this and we just, you know, we 0:15:19.660 --> 0:15:22.660 had had all of these freedoms and we just sort 0:15:22.660 --> 0:15:29.139 of jettisoned everything that wasn't in the Bible. And um 0:15:29.139 --> 0:15:32.619 some years ago I was speaking for a friend uh 0:15:32.619 --> 0:15:36.259 who was a senior minister of an Anglican church in Sydney. 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.340 And I, he asked me if I would share in the, 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.030 the morning service with him that I would, you know, 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.160 serve communion and all of that, you know, and I, 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.189 I think I wore a little bit of a robe and, 0:15:49.199 --> 0:15:52.720 you know, that, and, but there was something, and of 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.119 course we, we preached the gospel, we, you know, taught 0:15:55.119 --> 0:15:55.800 the word of God. 0:15:56.460 --> 0:15:59.059 There was something rich about it. And I remember thinking like, 0:15:59.100 --> 0:16:01.629 I think we maybe have robbed ourselves a bit by 0:16:01.629 --> 0:16:06.020 just chucking everything without any consideration. Oh, it's tradition, get 0:16:06.020 --> 0:16:07.780 rid of it, you know, I mean, that was kind 0:16:07.780 --> 0:16:09.379 of the big thing, you know, back in the 80s, 0:16:09.460 --> 0:16:12.920 you know, you want to make sure you were iconoclast, 0:16:12.980 --> 0:16:16.660 you know, we're breaking the tradition. So, but it, but 0:16:16.660 --> 0:16:18.679 a whole generation that kind of didn't grow up. 0:16:19.429 --> 0:16:20.569 In a church 0:16:21.660 --> 0:16:25.460 Uh, with that experience is now kind of being attracted 0:16:25.460 --> 0:16:27.300 to some of that, which is, which is fine. It's 0:16:27.300 --> 0:16:30.179 not bad. Should we put the little bins of holy 0:16:30.179 --> 0:16:32.900 water at the entrances to the churches now too? 0:16:33.369 --> 0:16:35.540 Than the Catholic Church did that. I remember the Catholic 0:16:35.540 --> 0:16:37.480 Church did that. What was the significance of that? I 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.509 don't remember. I just remember walking by it every time 0:16:39.509 --> 0:16:41.189 and every time you walk by it, you had to, yeah, 0:16:41.309 --> 0:16:43.739 I mean, you know, obviously there, there are those elements 0:16:43.739 --> 0:16:45.910 that are superstitious, and there are those things. So you 0:16:45.910 --> 0:16:48.449 have to be careful. And I think that is like, well, you're, 0:16:48.710 --> 0:16:51.369 you know, you're coming in and you basically dip your hand. 0:16:52.270 --> 0:16:53.949 In the water and then you do the sign of 0:16:53.949 --> 0:16:56.869 the cross. So you're kind of putting, you're kind of 0:16:56.869 --> 0:17:00.710 sanctifying yourself as you go in and then do the 0:17:00.710 --> 0:17:01.629 same thing on the way out. 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:07.600 So, not that it did anything, but that's what it 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:10.920 was intended to do or supposed to do. Rod, thanks 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:16.060 for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.280 Pastors Brian Broderson and Dave Keene are taking your calls 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.479 till 4, so call in. Here is Thomas in Dallas, Texas. 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.719 He's watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Thomas, what's going on? 0:17:25.790 --> 0:17:26.479 What's your question? 0:17:28.558 --> 0:17:31.358 Uh, yeah, first of all, blessings be upon you all 0:17:31.358 --> 0:17:34.638 in the most holy and the merciful name of Jesus Christ. 0:17:35.700 --> 0:17:37.070 Uh, how are you, pastor? 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:38.959 Good, thank you. 0:17:41.749 --> 0:17:48.979 Uh, yup. So my question will be about Mr. Judith Escort. Uh, so, uh, 0:17:48.989 --> 0:17:53.099 I was watching a video on YouTube and I believe, uh, 0:17:53.109 --> 0:17:56.320 I encountered a video where they were sort of 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.739 Telling us that Judas Iscariot, uh, was not a traitor 0:18:01.739 --> 0:18:04.639 to Jesus Christ, uh, like he was one of the 0:18:04.638 --> 0:18:10.239 closest apostle of Jesus, and then they referred for a book, uh, 0:18:10.249 --> 0:18:14.638 named the Gospel of Judas, uh, in which, uh, Judas 0:18:14.638 --> 0:18:18.479 helped Jesus Christ to sort of accomplish the goal, to 0:18:18.479 --> 0:18:21.680 sort of leave the human body, uh, and go in 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.638 the heavens and afterwards. 0:18:24.550 --> 0:18:27.440 Uh, they were sort of telling us that Judas was 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:32.919 the most beloved, uh, apostle of Jesus Christ. So that 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.439 will be my question. OK. By the way, where are 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:36.780 you from? We love your accent. 0:18:40.239 --> 0:18:45.169 Uh, Originally, uh, I'm from Pakistan. Pakistan, OK, yeah, you 0:18:45.170 --> 0:18:47.229 don't sound like you're from Texas. I had a feeling 0:18:47.229 --> 0:18:49.009 that that wasn't the case, but Dave, what do you 0:18:49.009 --> 0:18:49.570 say to Thomas? 0:18:50.469 --> 0:18:54.139 Yeah, so Tom, uh, so, Judas was one of the 0:18:54.138 --> 0:18:57.700 key disciples. He was trusted. He was the treasure of 0:18:57.700 --> 0:19:02.639 the disciples. Um, however, he, um, sometimes took from within 0:19:02.638 --> 0:19:08.139 the money, um, to do his own thing. Judas actually 0:19:08.138 --> 0:19:13.219 really was identified in a brand of religious zealots that 0:19:13.219 --> 0:19:17.020 wanted to see the Romans kicked out. And so there's 0:19:17.020 --> 0:19:17.859 some discussion. 0:19:18.388 --> 0:19:23.749 That perhaps part of the reason why Judas betrayed Jesus and, 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.959 you know, brought the Romans to him is he was 0:19:26.959 --> 0:19:29.810 trying to get Jesus to pick a fight. He wanted 0:19:29.810 --> 0:19:33.200 Jesus to respond. He wanted Jesus to, to rise up 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.959 and kick out the Romans and bring the glory days 0:19:35.959 --> 0:19:39.758 of Israel back. And, and we know that God's kingdom 0:19:39.759 --> 0:19:43.280 was established, but it was started through a spiritual kingdom that, 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.099 you know, and, and so Judas really missed the point. 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:47.580 He was very remorseful. 0:19:48.020 --> 0:19:52.979 After the fact, but we do see in scripture that there's, um, 0:19:53.540 --> 0:19:57.820 condemnation placed upon him. The, the Gospel of Judas that 0:19:57.820 --> 0:20:01.099 we have floating around today, we look at as a 0:20:01.099 --> 0:20:05.820 book that comes from the Gnostic perspective. Um, the early 0:20:05.820 --> 0:20:08.020 church dealt with this book. This is not a newly 0:20:08.020 --> 0:20:10.219 discovered book. This is a book that the early church 0:20:10.219 --> 0:20:14.060 dealt with and rejected as authoritative. So we know that 0:20:14.060 --> 0:20:15.119 Judas quickly. 0:20:15.479 --> 0:20:20.200 Um, killed himself after, uh, the crucifixion of Jesus. And 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:24.479 so Judas wasn't the writer of this. It's someone wrote this, 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.280 they slapped Jesus' name on it to give it authority. 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.359 The already church dealt with it, they rejected it from 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.280 the beginning, and so we reject the writings and the 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.719 message of the Gospel of Judas. And, and unfortunately, Judas 0:20:37.729 --> 0:20:39.749 played a role so much like Pharaoh in the Old 0:20:39.749 --> 0:20:40.619 Testament that 0:20:41.509 --> 0:20:45.699 God allowed his heart to be steered away from God, 0:20:45.790 --> 0:20:49.550 and God allowed him to play this, this player of 0:20:49.550 --> 0:20:52.670 betrayal and, and treason to bring Jesus to the point 0:20:52.670 --> 0:20:55.530 of the crucifixion, and I think that's 0:20:56.209 --> 0:20:58.409 It is appropriate to think of him as a traitor, 0:20:58.489 --> 0:21:00.650 but we also have, you know, 0:21:01.599 --> 0:21:04.680 Compassion for him, because we see his remorse after the fact, 0:21:04.759 --> 0:21:07.239 you know, he recognized what he did was wrong, he 0:21:07.239 --> 0:21:08.920 was trying to get Jesus to stand up and pick 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.479 a fight, and Jesus didn't, and he saw what he 0:21:11.479 --> 0:21:14.359 had done to his friend, and so, you know, in 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.070 that sense, he really did betray his friend, um, and the, 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.138 and the purpose of what Jesus was all about. 0:21:21.219 --> 0:21:25.330 Anything to add, Brian? Well, I just read that, um, 0:21:25.420 --> 0:21:28.540 the account in John's Gospel, uh, today, so it's kind 0:21:28.540 --> 0:21:31.419 of fresh on my mind, and I think, um, you know, 0:21:31.499 --> 0:21:35.099 obviously it's a big surprise to everybody that Judas is 0:21:35.099 --> 0:21:38.218 the one who's betraying Jesus. Jesus says, uh, one of 0:21:38.219 --> 0:21:41.820 you is gonna betray me and nobody knows, well, who 0:21:41.820 --> 0:21:45.540 could it be? And then, um, you know, Jesus says, 0:21:45.619 --> 0:21:48.419 the one to whom I dip the bread after I 0:21:48.959 --> 0:21:50.680 Uh, or the one to who I give the bread 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:52.560 after I dip it, that, that'll be the person. And 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.629 so that was Judas, and it says very specifically, it says, 0:21:55.638 --> 0:21:58.999 at that moment, Satan entered him. 0:21:59.739 --> 0:22:03.679 So he really made a, a covenant with the devil 0:22:04.339 --> 0:22:07.700 to betray Jesus. So I know there's um. 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:11.409 You know, there, there are some that want to have a. 0:22:12.229 --> 0:22:14.749 You know, kind of sympathy for Judas. 0:22:15.638 --> 0:22:20.770 And um I think that's maybe a little bit misguided, so, uh, 0:22:20.790 --> 0:22:22.830 but I, I, you know, I have a friend who 0:22:24.249 --> 0:22:27.050 I, I think he wrote a book on it actually about, 0:22:27.089 --> 0:22:31.680 you know, whether Judas would be in heaven, and I, 0:22:31.729 --> 0:22:34.889 I think he was wrong, but, but his premise was, 0:22:34.930 --> 0:22:40.810 which I did agree with, he, he said if Judas repented. 0:22:41.499 --> 0:22:44.160 Would God have forgiven him? And I said, well, of course, 0:22:44.259 --> 0:22:46.119 I think, you know, why wouldn't he? I mean, he 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.060 forgives anybody who repents, but there's no indication in Scripture 0:22:49.060 --> 0:22:51.859 that Judas repented. He, he thought that there was because 0:22:51.859 --> 0:22:53.979 of the fact that Judas was remorseful and said, I 0:22:53.979 --> 0:22:56.729 betrayed innocent blood and all of that. So, uh, that's 0:22:56.729 --> 0:22:57.389 another story. 0:22:58.660 --> 0:23:02.180 It also shows you the potential mercy of God, you know, 0:23:02.300 --> 0:23:05.498 like we're not the judge. We don't know where Judas 0:23:05.499 --> 0:23:08.619 ended up with his faith in Christ at that moment, 0:23:08.739 --> 0:23:09.009 but 0:23:09.749 --> 0:23:14.239 Um, he does, he is very conniving, you know, he's 0:23:14.239 --> 0:23:17.080 looking for an opportunity. It tells us to, to hand 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:19.958 you this over. This is not a, a, you know, 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:20.478 a 0:23:20.479 --> 0:23:24.219 flash thought. And, and even, you know, a little bit 0:23:24.479 --> 0:23:27.859 further back in the story in John's Gospel, even where Jesus, 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:30.979 he speaks of the fact that I've chosen the 12, 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.629 and yet one of you is a devil. So Judas 0:23:33.629 --> 0:23:37.869 was already on that course before we arrive at the, 0:23:37.999 --> 0:23:38.780 the Last Supper. 0:23:39.670 --> 0:23:43.739 In the garden. When Jesus dipped his hand in the bowl, 0:23:43.749 --> 0:23:45.589 and I mean that right there should have been the 0:23:45.589 --> 0:23:48.509 clue to everyone else. It's him. Why wasn't there like 0:23:48.509 --> 0:23:51.780 a mob or something? Get him or something. It was 0:23:51.780 --> 0:23:53.749 just very like it just goes on to the next 0:23:53.749 --> 0:23:56.810 verse like I mean it is, and it is kind of, 0:23:56.830 --> 0:24:00.468 it's a little bit ambiguous because the other gospels, you know, 0:24:00.629 --> 0:24:04.550 tell it just slightly different. So you do wonder, I mean, 0:24:04.589 --> 0:24:08.469 if it was so clear, the, the communication. 0:24:09.450 --> 0:24:14.770 Is between John and Peter and Jesus. So it doesn't 0:24:14.770 --> 0:24:19.119 say that the whole apostolic group was involved in the conversation. Uh, 0:24:19.129 --> 0:24:23.509 Jesus said someone's gonna betray me. John is leaning, uh, 0:24:23.969 --> 0:24:26.169 kind of, he's close to Jesus, he's leaning on him. 0:24:26.609 --> 0:24:29.450 Peter leans over to John and says, 0:24:30.209 --> 0:24:34.169 Ask him who it is. And then Jesus, you know, 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:36.488 he asked Jesus. Jesus is the one to whom. So 0:24:36.489 --> 0:24:39.580 I mean this could have been just known between those three, 0:24:40.330 --> 0:24:43.249 but we don't know. It is, it is a little ambiguous, 0:24:43.330 --> 0:24:46.650 I think. But even those three could have started, hey, hey, 0:24:46.729 --> 0:24:47.849 he's gonna do something. Let's, 0:24:47.930 --> 0:24:51.670 let's honestly don't think they expected any of them to, 0:24:51.969 --> 0:24:54.830 to betray you to that level of turning it over 0:24:54.830 --> 0:24:56.159 to the Romans. 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:01.099 Thomas, thank you for your question today here on Pastor's Perspective, 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:06.320 888-564-6173 is our number. Let's read one that was submitted online. 0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:07.959 By the way, we're gonna be in the studio till 0:25:07.959 --> 0:25:11.040 4 p.m. Pacific time, so keep on calling. Michael in 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:13.820 Redlands wants to know what the Bible says about using 0:25:13.820 --> 0:25:18.680 IVF in vitro fertilization to conceive between a husband and wife. 0:25:19.259 --> 0:25:21.888 What would you say, Brian? I would say I wish 0:25:21.888 --> 0:25:26.849 Scott Ray was here in the studio telling Doctor Scott, he's, 0:25:27.060 --> 0:25:31.820 he's great at answering this question. Um, you know, there's 0:25:31.820 --> 0:25:35.050 lots of different opinions about this, even among Christians, you know, 0:25:35.170 --> 0:25:39.729 some Christians find it, it's OK. Other Christians are very 0:25:39.729 --> 0:25:43.450 adamant that it, you know, it's not right. Um, I, 0:25:43.530 --> 0:25:44.249 I really don't. 0:25:45.060 --> 0:25:48.060 I don't necessarily, I, I, I have to say I 0:25:48.060 --> 0:25:51.719 haven't thought long and hard about it to have a, 0:25:52.180 --> 0:25:55.300 a conclusion on it. I know people that have done it. 0:25:56.020 --> 0:25:58.310 And have a child as a result of it and 0:25:58.310 --> 0:26:01.109 are thankful for the child. Uh, and I know people 0:26:01.109 --> 0:26:04.270 that have done it and had several attempts and they 0:26:04.270 --> 0:26:06.950 never were able to produce a child. So, what do 0:26:06.950 --> 0:26:07.349 you think, Dave? 0:26:08.339 --> 0:26:13.349 Well, I think with all medical, uh, procedures, our, our 0:26:13.349 --> 0:26:16.940 trust is in who God is as healer. And even 0:26:16.940 --> 0:26:18.900 in the case of IVF that God is the giver 0:26:18.900 --> 0:26:23.399 of life. How God chooses to work in some miraculous 0:26:24.138 --> 0:26:27.599 way that Christ did, you know, by just touching someone 0:26:27.599 --> 0:26:30.218 or spitting in the mud or if God chooses to 0:26:30.219 --> 0:26:32.888 work through doctors of medicine, our faith is still in 0:26:32.888 --> 0:26:35.879 it's God who's healing me through this process. So, 0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:39.580 If someone is, is, you know, unable to bear children 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:42.320 in the way God created their bodies, but there's a 0:26:42.320 --> 0:26:46.359 medical procedure that gives them greater opportunity, their faith isn't 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:49.320 in the IVF. Their faith is in God that could 0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:51.830 be the gear of life and using these means. And 0:26:51.830 --> 0:26:54.670 I think that's the perspective of faith that we, we 0:26:54.670 --> 0:26:56.609 should approach this, so that it's not. 0:26:57.580 --> 0:27:00.300 My faith in the medicine, my faith is truly in God, 0:27:00.310 --> 0:27:03.509 who may or may not choose to give me a 0:27:03.509 --> 0:27:06.709 child through this medical procedure. Because I know with, with 0:27:06.709 --> 0:27:09.670 my family, when my wife was very sick, you know, yeah, 0:27:09.790 --> 0:27:14.030 we were praying God heal, and God provided doctors who 0:27:14.030 --> 0:27:17.629 came alongside and helped us make right decisions and medicine 0:27:17.629 --> 0:27:19.609 that helped, and all of those, I say as a 0:27:19.609 --> 0:27:22.190 gift from God, you know, it wasn't the medicine, it 0:27:22.190 --> 0:27:25.550 was God who did the healing. He just happened to 0:27:25.550 --> 0:27:27.300 choose to use doctors and 0:27:27.650 --> 0:27:31.089 And medicine in that particular case that saved my wife's life, 0:27:31.209 --> 0:27:33.050 you know, and so I think we have to look 0:27:33.050 --> 0:27:36.330 at these things as simply gifts that our faith is 0:27:36.330 --> 0:27:38.190 not in the gift, our faith is in the giver. 0:27:38.930 --> 0:27:41.650 Yeah, and it's funny to think about it that way 0:27:41.650 --> 0:27:45.820 because as Christians, we wouldn't put our faith in IVF. 0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:50.770 But like non-Christians, in a sense, they are putting their 0:27:50.770 --> 0:27:52.999 faith in IVF and if it works, they're like, wow, 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:56.969 that was great. Christians would say, wow, thank you, Lord. 0:27:57.400 --> 0:27:59.199 But yeah, it's it's 0:27:59.989 --> 0:28:00.550 Different 0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:04.119 Yeah, and you know, I think the, um, you know, there's, 0:28:04.320 --> 0:28:08.280 there is to some degree a moral dilemma, you know, 0:28:08.479 --> 0:28:11.119 because of the process and because of the fertilization of 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:12.429 the eggs and you know the 0:28:13.259 --> 0:28:15.859 The embryo embryo and all of that. So that, that's 0:28:15.859 --> 0:28:18.959 where you get into the controversial stuff, but I do 0:28:18.959 --> 0:28:22.109 think that Scott, um, Doctor Scott Ray, who's been on 0:28:22.109 --> 0:28:25.259 the program many times with us, um, he probably has 0:28:25.259 --> 0:28:27.900 a great, uh, maybe even a podcast on it because 0:28:27.900 --> 0:28:29.550 he's got some really good 0:28:30.239 --> 0:28:31.879 You know, he's a guy who's thought long and hard 0:28:31.879 --> 0:28:34.060 about it, and I appreciate. 0:28:35.249 --> 0:28:37.999 Um, his, his thoughts. I, I. 0:28:38.820 --> 0:28:41.979 I know he has a new book. Uh, his ethics 0:28:41.979 --> 0:28:47.160 book has been updated, revised, expanded again. Uh, yeah, and I, 0:28:47.259 --> 0:28:48.859 and I think it's coming out pretty soon. And the 0:28:48.859 --> 0:28:51.420 reason this is on my mind is because I'm packing 0:28:51.420 --> 0:28:54.379 all my books, and two times Cheryl asked me about 0:28:54.379 --> 0:28:56.459 this book. Can we get rid of this book? And 0:28:56.459 --> 0:28:57.180 I'm thinking. 0:28:58.150 --> 0:29:01.589 Well, until Scott gets his new book out, I'm gonna 0:29:01.589 --> 0:29:02.690 hang on to it. 0:29:04.479 --> 0:29:05.420 Well, if you do want to get rid of the 0:29:05.420 --> 0:29:06.680 old one, you can bring it here. I'm sure we 0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:08.780 can put it in our library. You can read what 0:29:08.780 --> 0:29:11.160 Scott said. Yes, Michael, thank you so much for sending 0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:15.619 in your question through the pastor's perspective page at kwave.com. 0:29:15.759 --> 0:29:17.440 We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be 0:29:17.440 --> 0:29:20.320 back with more of your questions. We've got pastors Brian 0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:20.999 Broderson and Dave. 0:29:21.325 --> 0:29:29.555 Keene here until 4 o'clock. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. 888-564-6173. 0:29:29.884 --> 0:29:32.325 Jay and Tustin, you'll be up next when we come 0:29:32.325 --> 0:29:37.905 back from the break on Pastor's Perspective, 888-564-6173. 0:30:17.759 --> 0:30:20.009 Are we back? Are we sure? Yes, we're back. All right, 0:30:20.089 --> 0:30:26.440 this is Pastor's perspective. Brian Perez here at 888-564-6173. We're 0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:29.129 here till 4, so call in, ask your questions. We've 0:30:29.129 --> 0:30:32.050 got a couple of pastors in the studio, Brian Broderson, 0:30:32.129 --> 0:30:36.089 the pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, and uh 0:30:36.089 --> 0:30:38.690 Dave Keene, one of the teaching pastors at the Fields 0:30:38.690 --> 0:30:41.540 Church in Carlsbad. He's also a professor. 0:30:41.700 --> 0:30:44.930 At the Talbot School of Theology at Viola University, but 0:30:44.930 --> 0:30:48.099 we can't go any further until, and, and people have 0:30:48.099 --> 0:30:50.619 gotten used to this. It's great, but Dave, go 0:30:50.619 --> 0:30:50.780 ahead. 0:30:50.859 --> 0:30:52.420 Yeah, I just want to say a good shout out 0:30:52.420 --> 0:30:56.859 to Ava and to Lily who are watching live in Atlanta, Georgia. 0:30:56.940 --> 0:31:01.009 They're my granddaughters, and they're staying up probably past bath 0:31:01.009 --> 0:31:03.180 time just to be a part of this. We actually 0:31:03.180 --> 0:31:05.660 just got back from spending a few weeks back there. 0:31:06.030 --> 0:31:09.749 In Atlanta and uh Ava got sick and then quickly 0:31:09.749 --> 0:31:12.219 gave the cold to me, but praise God we're all 0:31:12.219 --> 0:31:14.540 better now and she's having a great day. She had 0:31:14.540 --> 0:31:17.749 a red ribbon week, you know, of the anti-drug campaign 0:31:17.749 --> 0:31:19.270 going on at school. So she was dressed up in 0:31:19.270 --> 0:31:22.310 her eighties outfit today and so cute and 0:31:22.384 --> 0:31:25.915 Uh, they're just such a joy. I have 3 granddaughters, 0:31:26.224 --> 0:31:28.504 one that lives here in California, Kinsley, and it's just 0:31:28.504 --> 0:31:32.275 a joy to watch young children that just have such 0:31:32.275 --> 0:31:35.234 a love for family and for God. And so, Ava 0:31:35.234 --> 0:31:37.234 and Lily, love you guys. Make sure you listen to 0:31:37.234 --> 0:31:38.455 mom and dad to go to bed tonight. 0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:45.400 We love that. All right, 888-564-6173 is our number. And 0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:49.119 uh as promised, let's talk to Jay in Tustin. Hey, Jay, 0:31:49.239 --> 0:31:49.879 what's going on? 0:31:51.469 --> 0:31:53.389 Hey, hi, thank you for taking my call. Your screener 0:31:53.389 --> 0:31:54.830 was good. You kind of helped me figure out and 0:31:54.830 --> 0:31:57.099 put my question across. I was kind of stumbling there 0:31:57.099 --> 0:32:00.570 a bit, but we only use the best screeners here 0:32:00.570 --> 0:32:03.719 on pastor's perspective. Top of the line, top shelf screeners. 0:32:03.830 --> 0:32:08.070 Makes the show more interesting. That's for sure. So here's my, 0:32:08.150 --> 0:32:10.670 I'm in a Bible study group, and we meet on Thursdays. 0:32:10.749 --> 0:32:14.550 We're meeting tomorrow, and we had a discussion about, um, 0:32:14.790 --> 0:32:16.969 salvation and works. 0:32:17.599 --> 0:32:20.119 And there was quite a, there's like 17 in the 0:32:20.119 --> 0:32:24.249 group from 75 years old to about 25 years old, 0:32:24.599 --> 0:32:27.759 and the question was, first question is, is if we're 0:32:27.759 --> 0:32:31.619 saved by grace, do we go, do we, are we 0:32:31.879 --> 0:32:34.219 part of, will we go through judgment day with. 0:32:35.540 --> 0:32:39.190 You know, it's good thing about judgment Day are those 0:32:39.190 --> 0:32:43.219 who are saved, do we go through judgment, Are we 0:32:43.219 --> 0:32:44.259 outside of judgment Day? 0:32:45.849 --> 0:32:46.979 What would you say, Dave? 0:32:48.310 --> 0:32:50.589 You know, scripture is very clear that we have been 0:32:50.589 --> 0:32:55.270 forgiven of our sins, that we are, are 0:32:55.889 --> 0:32:59.280 You know, righteous, right before God simply because of the 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:02.570 work of Christ. So, when Christ looks at us, he 0:33:02.570 --> 0:33:04.930 does not judge us for our sins. Those have been 0:33:04.930 --> 0:33:09.580 taken care of. But the judgment that we as Christians do, um, 0:33:09.940 --> 0:33:12.749 face is what we call the Bemay. Uh, 2 Corinthians 0:33:12.749 --> 0:33:16.969 chapter 5 talks about this, that, um, it's a call 0:33:16.969 --> 0:33:19.489 to live by faith and a call to seek to 0:33:19.489 --> 0:33:21.369 make it our goal to please God, and it says 0:33:21.369 --> 0:33:22.330 in verse 10. 0:33:22.979 --> 0:33:25.849 Uh, says, for we must all appear before the judgment 0:33:25.849 --> 0:33:27.940 seat of Christ that each may receive what is due 0:33:27.940 --> 0:33:30.499 him for the things he's done in the body, whether 0:33:30.859 --> 0:33:34.270 good or bad. And, and this, this is not the 0:33:34.270 --> 0:33:37.379 great white throne of judgment that a non-Christian, a non-believer 0:33:37.379 --> 0:33:39.359 will be judged for their sins. This is a different 0:33:39.359 --> 0:33:42.219 judgment seat. We call it the bema seat, and notice 0:33:42.219 --> 0:33:44.300 that we're judged for good or bad. 0:33:44.619 --> 0:33:47.900 So we're rewarded for the activities and just like the 0:33:47.900 --> 0:33:51.239 crowns that are talked about throughout scripture we receive those 0:33:51.540 --> 0:33:55.589 and the bad here isn't translated evil. The actual Greek 0:33:55.589 --> 0:33:59.499 word there is better translated worthless. So the question is, 0:33:59.580 --> 0:34:03.280 what are we as Christians doing that it's not necessarily sin, 0:34:03.660 --> 0:34:06.650 but it's not productive for God's kingdom work and God says, 0:34:06.660 --> 0:34:09.900 I've given you resources, I've given you opportunity, and if 0:34:09.900 --> 0:34:10.530 you're 0:34:11.119 --> 0:34:14.650 Wasting those and there's worthlessness coming out of it, that's 0:34:14.650 --> 0:34:16.929 what we'll be held accountable for. We'll be held accountable 0:34:16.929 --> 0:34:20.570 for not doing right with what God has given us 0:34:20.570 --> 0:34:24.330 and then that's, it's not a judgment to sin to 0:34:24.330 --> 0:34:27.249 be punished in hell. It's a simply like, like this 0:34:27.248 --> 0:34:29.090 is a moment that I could have had more to 0:34:29.090 --> 0:34:31.969 offer to God in my crowns serving, giving back to him. 0:34:32.288 --> 0:34:34.369 And he says, no, some of the things that you 0:34:34.369 --> 0:34:35.668 did are, are worthless. 0:34:36.128 --> 0:34:37.128 What passage was that again? 0:34:37.238 --> 0:34:39.849 That's in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, verse 10 is what 0:34:39.849 --> 0:34:40.278 I read. 0:34:40.448 --> 0:34:41.188 All right, bye. 0:34:42.060 --> 0:34:45.290 Yeah, that's great. Um, I would just add, um, that 0:34:45.290 --> 0:34:53.909 this is a great passage in, um, John 5:24. Jesus says, uh, whoever, um, believes, uh, 0:34:55.030 --> 0:34:58.939 Whoever believes in me and the father who sent me, 0:34:58.979 --> 0:35:01.399 it's kind of both the father and son there, um, 0:35:01.860 --> 0:35:03.979 has passed. 0:35:05.259 --> 0:35:09.649 From death to life and will not come into judgment. 0:35:10.429 --> 0:35:13.590 So that's very clear there, you know, we, there is 0:35:13.590 --> 0:35:16.908 no judgment that awaits us in the sense of this condemning. 0:35:17.739 --> 0:35:21.380 Judgment like we see at the great white throne in Revelation. Jay, 0:35:21.449 --> 0:35:22.040 what do you think? 0:35:23.810 --> 0:35:24.520 Well 0:35:25.439 --> 0:35:28.780 Yes, I, I want you to receive salvation, receive salvation, 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:32.520 but the big question with this discussion, how our discussion went, 0:35:33.040 --> 0:35:36.040 so what is the purpose of judgment? The, is there 0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:37.699 any consequences if I have. 0:35:38.719 --> 0:35:40.840 Didn't I accepted Christ, but I 0:35:41.909 --> 0:35:44.050 Don't try to, I, I, I don't see a change 0:35:44.050 --> 0:35:46.290 in my life. I still have my same friends and 0:35:46.509 --> 0:35:53.029 we drink and, and party and, uh, fornicate, and what's, 0:35:53.110 --> 0:35:54.989 what's the consequences of not having. 0:35:56.390 --> 0:35:59.360 Um, good, I, I don't know the word, but having 0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:01.840 good works, because I mean, I went through, I asked 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.270 Chad GPT to go through the Gospel through Paul, all 0:36:04.270 --> 0:36:05.300 the books that Paul wrote. 0:36:06.090 --> 0:36:09.110 And ask him to talk anything about salvation and judge 0:36:09.110 --> 0:36:12.570 by works, and I was surprised. There's like 15 or 0:36:12.570 --> 0:36:15.009 10 or 15 verses saying that every man must work 0:36:15.009 --> 0:36:18.248 out their salvation with fear and trembling. You'll be judged 0:36:18.248 --> 0:36:20.110 and rewarded according to your works. 0:36:21.429 --> 0:36:24.509 On and on. And so, what, it, it makes it 0:36:24.509 --> 0:36:26.780 quite clear that there'll be a different type of a 0:36:26.780 --> 0:36:28.709 relationship we'll have with God. Not everyone will live in 0:36:28.709 --> 0:36:31.669 exact presence, they'll be saved from hell, but you won't, 0:36:31.748 --> 0:36:32.529 you'll have a different 0:36:33.399 --> 0:36:35.429 Degree of 0:36:36.280 --> 0:36:38.520 Closeness or relationship to God. 0:36:39.189 --> 0:36:42.429 And I think in Revelation, I wish I had my 0:36:42.429 --> 0:36:45.229 notes here, but like John in Revelation talked about the 0:36:45.229 --> 0:36:48.590 seven different churches and, and you had the people of Corinth, 0:36:48.669 --> 0:36:50.939 they were really righteous, and then the other ones weren't 0:36:50.939 --> 0:36:53.780 so right. They had different types of blessings. All were blessed, 0:36:53.790 --> 0:36:55.770 but they were of different degrees. 0:36:56.159 --> 0:36:59.310 Uh, can you make a state, that's, that's one of 0:36:59.310 --> 0:37:02.199 the big questions that came up. Are there different rewards? 0:37:02.790 --> 0:37:04.360 Does everyone just live in the presence of God forever? 0:37:04.479 --> 0:37:07.030 So I'm next to, sitting next to the person that, 0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:09.689 you know, stole my wife and had a baby during 0:37:09.689 --> 0:37:11.839 I was married to her, and he's lived a horrible 0:37:11.840 --> 0:37:15.840 life ever since, and that, you know, he's just a bum, and, uh, he, 0:37:16.199 --> 0:37:18.239 but he said he accepted Jesus. Are they all, are 0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:19.299 we all in the same place? 0:37:20.590 --> 0:37:21.050 So 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:25.850 The short answer is none of us deserve salvation. None 0:37:25.850 --> 0:37:30.630 of us are righteous. And so all of us receive 0:37:30.830 --> 0:37:33.770 mercy and salvation and grace, um. 0:37:34.459 --> 0:37:38.419 To be saved. And so the, the question I think 0:37:38.419 --> 0:37:42.939 is twofold. When, when someone has saving faith, in other words, 0:37:43.020 --> 0:37:46.259 they're not just saying, yeah, Jesus is my savior and 0:37:46.259 --> 0:37:48.300 I'm gonna ask for forgiveness and do whatever I want 0:37:48.300 --> 0:37:50.219 to do from now on, I don't think that's saving 0:37:50.219 --> 0:37:53.890 faith because saving faith recognizes there's a God and I'm 0:37:53.890 --> 0:37:57.259 not it. Saving faith says it's only by what Jesus 0:37:57.259 --> 0:38:00.759 has done that I have forgiveness and therefore. 0:38:01.659 --> 0:38:03.979 I need to surrender my life to live for him. 0:38:04.179 --> 0:38:08.699 That's what you see as fruit of, of salvation. The 0:38:08.699 --> 0:38:11.540 what we call in theological terms, we call that um 0:38:11.540 --> 0:38:16.939 positional sanctification. Your position with Jesus has changed. You've gone 0:38:16.939 --> 0:38:19.419 from someone who is lost who is found, someone who 0:38:19.419 --> 0:38:21.370 was a sinner to someone who has been forgiven, and 0:38:21.370 --> 0:38:25.380 that position is secure and forever. So, you know, once 0:38:25.380 --> 0:38:27.140 you've made that confession of faith. 0:38:27.890 --> 0:38:30.370 Then you are saved. But then scripture talks about, and 0:38:30.370 --> 0:38:34.890 this is what you found from Chat GBT, there's progressive sanctification, 0:38:34.969 --> 0:38:38.330 meaning I continue to grow closer in my journey with 0:38:38.330 --> 0:38:41.649 Jesus to be more like Christ and more free from sin. 0:38:42.340 --> 0:38:45.219 And, and that's really what, what the walk of a 0:38:45.219 --> 0:38:47.340 Christian should be is be seeking out to be more 0:38:47.340 --> 0:38:49.459 like Christ. If someone is not seeking to be more 0:38:49.459 --> 0:38:50.199 like Christ, 0:38:51.350 --> 0:38:53.870 I wouldn't even doubt their salvation, you know, just because 0:38:53.870 --> 0:38:57.030 someone says it doesn't mean it, you know, Jesus in 0:38:57.030 --> 0:38:59.749 the sword on the Mount highlights very clearly, you know, 0:38:59.830 --> 0:39:02.390 blessed are you hunger and thirst for righteousness freely safe. 0:39:02.509 --> 0:39:04.189 That's one of the things I tell my students all 0:39:04.189 --> 0:39:06.780 the time as they wrestle with, am I a Christian? 0:39:06.860 --> 0:39:08.310 I say, well, do you hunger and thirst for the 0:39:08.310 --> 0:39:10.370 things of God? If you don't have any hunger or 0:39:10.370 --> 0:39:12.549 thirst for the things of God, you probably don't have 0:39:12.550 --> 0:39:16.290 a salvation, um, in your heart because you are. 0:39:16.649 --> 0:39:19.969 Confessing not a faith in Christ, there's faith confessing a 0:39:19.969 --> 0:39:23.049 faith in a religious experience, and that doesn't save us. 0:39:23.169 --> 0:39:26.770 And so I think in your conversation, I, I would, 0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:28.810 I'd be very careful to say it's by our works 0:39:28.810 --> 0:39:32.380 that we identify, but there is evidence that should be 0:39:32.380 --> 0:39:36.890 seen that we have been, um, forgiven, and that should 0:39:36.890 --> 0:39:38.350 cause a change in our lives. 0:39:39.489 --> 0:39:44.529 Yeah, I think too, maybe, um, if we understood salvation 0:39:44.530 --> 0:39:47.330 in a little bit of a fuller sense, you know, 0:39:47.530 --> 0:39:49.370 because we do, we just say, yeah, I'm saved, which 0:39:49.370 --> 0:39:51.570 means basically for a lot of people just means I'm 0:39:51.570 --> 0:39:54.529 not going to hell, right? Um, but if you think 0:39:54.530 --> 0:39:57.130 of the terms the Bible uses, you know, the Bible 0:39:57.130 --> 0:40:00.310 uses salvation is kind of like a general term. 0:40:00.800 --> 0:40:04.330 And then you have justification as as an aspect of salvation. 0:40:04.370 --> 0:40:07.009 You're declared righteous. And then like you said, Dave, you 0:40:07.009 --> 0:40:10.810 have uh sanctification is the process. But you also have 0:40:10.810 --> 0:40:15.370 what's called regeneration. And regeneration is the thing that makes 0:40:15.370 --> 0:40:18.610 you alive spiritually. So you do hunger and thirst for 0:40:18.610 --> 0:40:21.850 righteousness and those things. So if you don't have that, 0:40:22.449 --> 0:40:25.748 then the question is, and regenerated means to be made alive. 0:40:25.860 --> 0:40:29.029 So if you, if you don't have any spiritual 0:40:29.969 --> 0:40:35.689 Uh, indicators in your life, then it's, it's possible that 0:40:35.689 --> 0:40:39.249 you're not spiritually alive and you're not a Christian in 0:40:39.248 --> 0:40:39.489 the end. 0:40:39.770 --> 0:40:43.649 Yeah, Jesus is very clear in Matthew chapter 7 that 0:40:43.649 --> 0:40:47.810 not everybody who claims to be his follower is known 0:40:47.810 --> 0:40:50.209 by Him, right? There's people that said, didn't we do 0:40:50.209 --> 0:40:52.810 all these religious things? And he's like, away from me. 0:40:52.860 --> 0:40:55.159 I never knew you. Like you never did the will 0:40:55.159 --> 0:40:58.130 of my Father. And so there are gonna be people 0:40:58.130 --> 0:40:58.989 who I think. 0:40:59.590 --> 0:41:01.360 Hey, you know what, I went to a church or 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:04.479 I did religious stuff, and Jesus says, no, you're not 0:41:04.479 --> 0:41:07.399 obeying the will of my Father. I don't know you. 0:41:07.439 --> 0:41:11.149 And that really, I think, should be a wake-up call to, to, 0:41:11.270 --> 0:41:13.520 to us to say, look, yes, we are saved by 0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:14.840 grace through faith alone. 0:41:15.270 --> 0:41:19.199 And that salvation cannot be taken away. However, what does 0:41:19.199 --> 0:41:22.439 it mean to place yourself in that position of surrendering 0:41:22.439 --> 0:41:26.199 to Jesus and saying, You are my only source of salvation. 0:41:26.259 --> 0:41:28.669 I'm not trusting myself, I'm not trusting my works or 0:41:28.669 --> 0:41:32.880 my religious actions. I am demonstrating I love you by 0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:34.779 these actions, but that doesn't save. 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:36.549 Yeah. 0:41:37.550 --> 0:41:40.080 Uh, Jay, thanks so much for calling in. Uh, before 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:43.070 I go to my next call though, uh, Pastor Brian, 0:41:43.130 --> 0:41:45.229 there might be somebody watching or listening right now that 0:41:45.229 --> 0:41:50.069 has heard this conversation and thought, hang on, wait a minute, what? 0:41:50.600 --> 0:41:55.040 Maybe I haven't been doing this right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it, it's. 0:41:55.679 --> 0:41:57.840 It's certainly possible that that is the case. And and 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:00.719 if that is who you are, then let's just, you know, 0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:05.270 back up a little bit and just remember to, you know, 0:42:05.479 --> 0:42:11.520 to believe in Jesus is also to receive Jesus, according 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:14.429 to scripture, you know, so believe is kind of, you know, 0:42:14.489 --> 0:42:17.779 the word trust is a good way to understand what 0:42:17.979 --> 0:42:19.959 what the Bible is talking about when it says believe. 0:42:20.320 --> 0:42:23.239 But then the Bible also says as many as received him. 0:42:23.669 --> 0:42:27.040 And so as you receive Jesus, that means you're receiving 0:42:27.040 --> 0:42:30.759 him as the Lord of your life or as the 0:42:30.759 --> 0:42:33.239 ruler of your life. You're receiving him as the one 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:37.479 who created you, the one who uh purchased you with 0:42:37.479 --> 0:42:40.459 his blood, uh, the one who's drawn you to Himself 0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:46.919 for the purpose of, um, making you his disciple, his follower. 0:42:47.498 --> 0:42:51.060 So it's not a just get out of hell card, 0:42:51.140 --> 0:42:54.259 you know, that so many people sort of think that 0:42:54.270 --> 0:42:56.570 that is what it is. Like, I got saved and, 0:42:56.600 --> 0:42:58.729 you know, now I'm not going to hell, but it, 0:42:58.739 --> 0:43:01.860 it doesn't have any impact on my life. That's not 0:43:01.860 --> 0:43:06.259 a real salvation. And unfortunately, there's, and there has been 0:43:06.259 --> 0:43:09.020 for a long time, it's not new. Unfortunately, there's too 0:43:09.020 --> 0:43:12.609 much of that that goes on. And so we just 0:43:12.610 --> 0:43:15.370 have to be clear that um. 0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:20.050 To be, you know, to be a Christian means you 0:43:20.050 --> 0:43:26.089 are becoming a follower of Jesus, and Jesus Himself by 0:43:26.090 --> 0:43:28.610 the Spirit is actually going to take up a residence 0:43:28.610 --> 0:43:31.830 in your life, and he's gonna empower you to follow Him. 0:43:32.209 --> 0:43:35.370 But you have to basically surrender to that. You have 0:43:35.370 --> 0:43:38.090 to say, OK, uh, you know, I've been Lord of 0:43:38.090 --> 0:43:40.449 my life. I've been running my life. I've been doing 0:43:40.449 --> 0:43:41.248 my own thing. 0:43:41.699 --> 0:43:45.218 And I'm turning my life over to you, Jesus. Jesus, 0:43:45.340 --> 0:43:45.899 take the wheel. 0:43:47.610 --> 0:43:51.169 That's, I love that. You can, uh, read about this 0:43:51.169 --> 0:43:54.130 if you want to on our website kwave.com. There's a 0:43:54.130 --> 0:43:57.209 section that we have called God's Plan. It's under the 0:43:57.209 --> 0:44:00.169 faith tab, so check that out. You know, I was 0:44:00.169 --> 0:44:02.880 talking to a young, uh, person the other day about this, 0:44:02.890 --> 0:44:03.830 and I was just 0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:07.509 You know, I just said, uh, because, you know, they, 0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:10.709 they've made a, a good move toward the Lord, but it's, 0:44:10.719 --> 0:44:13.080 right now, it's kind of based on, well, can I 0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:15.679 do this? And what if I do that? And am 0:44:15.679 --> 0:44:17.718 I gonna go to hell if I party with my friends, 0:44:17.759 --> 0:44:19.998 you know, and all that. And I just said, listen, 0:44:20.159 --> 0:44:22.999 that's not, it's not what it is. You know, it's 0:44:22.998 --> 0:44:26.919 not about that. It's about, you're, you're not gonna do 0:44:26.919 --> 0:44:29.408 these things because you're scared if you don't. 0:44:30.100 --> 0:44:33.300 You're gonna do these things because you wanna express thanksgiving 0:44:33.300 --> 0:44:34.939 to God for all He's done for you, you know, 0:44:34.998 --> 0:44:39.580 it's a love relationship. So, you know, hopefully that penetrated 0:44:39.580 --> 0:44:47.219 a bit. Yep, 888-564-6173. Sharon in Eastvale. How are you 0:44:47.219 --> 0:44:48.219 today and how can we help you? 0:44:49.259 --> 0:44:52.390 Hi, how are you, pastors? Um, yeah, I'm a little nervous. 0:44:52.429 --> 0:44:55.729 It's my first time. Don't be nervous. You're amongst friends. 0:44:57.040 --> 0:45:00.350 OK, um, yes, I had a question. I was, um, 0:45:00.439 --> 0:45:02.479 just trying to figure out what's the best way to 0:45:02.479 --> 0:45:04.998 ask it, and I'm so sorry to the gentleman that 0:45:04.998 --> 0:45:08.239 takes the information. I think I apologize like 3 times 0:45:08.239 --> 0:45:09.969 to him, so, um. 0:45:11.239 --> 0:45:14.340 It's OK. It's his job. He's there to take. 0:45:15.830 --> 0:45:20.699 OK, my question is about, um, uh, Paul's, uh, uh, book, uh, 0:45:20.709 --> 0:45:26.270 1 Corinthians 14. It's about, um, speaking in tongues. Uh, uh, 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:29.949 what is it for, um, let me see. Anyone who 0:45:29.949 --> 0:45:34.850 speaks in tongues edifies himself, and he says here, but 0:45:34.949 --> 0:45:39.689 the one who prophesies edifies the church. My question is, um, 0:45:40.380 --> 0:45:45.100 I've been speaking in tongues for, oh, years now. And 0:45:45.100 --> 0:45:49.259 when I initially started, I, I asked the Lord for 0:45:49.259 --> 0:45:53.290 it and I was telling your, um, the gentleman who 0:45:53.290 --> 0:45:55.600 was helping me figure out what I wanted to say. 0:45:56.469 --> 0:45:59.909 It, it came upon me like, like water. It just 0:45:59.909 --> 0:46:04.370 happened and I told him that I speak it now like, 0:46:04.560 --> 0:46:06.908 I like my, like second language, but I say my 0:46:06.909 --> 0:46:08.830 first language because it's like I can speak it at 0:46:08.830 --> 0:46:12.509 any time and when I'm speaking it, it's like uh 0:46:13.229 --> 0:46:15.429 It's like almost like I know what I'm saying in 0:46:15.429 --> 0:46:17.550 my head, but I couldn't tell you what I'm saying, 0:46:17.630 --> 0:46:21.189 but my gestures and when I'm speaking to the Lord, 0:46:21.229 --> 0:46:24.070 I feel like I'm talking to him like I know 0:46:24.070 --> 0:46:27.390 what I'm saying. But the thing is that when, when 0:46:27.390 --> 0:46:31.790 I read here, Paul says is, but he'd rather us prophesy. 0:46:32.350 --> 0:46:35.310 So my thing is that, do I ask the same 0:46:35.310 --> 0:46:38.590 way I asked the Lord to speak in tongues and 0:46:38.590 --> 0:46:41.928 it happened instantly, do I ask the Lord 0:46:42.540 --> 0:46:45.580 The ability to prophesy as easy as I did to 0:46:45.580 --> 0:46:47.779 speak in tongues and will it happen? Or can you 0:46:47.780 --> 0:46:49.820 trade it in and say, hey, instead of this tongues gift, 0:46:49.899 --> 0:46:53.759 can I have the prophecy gift instead? No, because it, 0:46:53.770 --> 0:46:57.140 it works for me because I, I speak to the 0:46:57.140 --> 0:47:01.419 Lord quite often and it's usually at night and my 0:47:01.419 --> 0:47:04.060 relationship has grown so much with Him and we talk 0:47:04.060 --> 0:47:04.799 all the time. 0:47:05.929 --> 0:47:10.060 Yeah, so Sharon, I think, um, so at the end 0:47:10.060 --> 0:47:13.429 of chapter 14, Paul actually says we should be eager 0:47:13.429 --> 0:47:16.979 to prophesy because the gift of prophecy isn't for telling 0:47:16.979 --> 0:47:19.959 the future. The gift of prophecy is speaking God's truth 0:47:20.580 --> 0:47:22.739 over people that God would give you a word of 0:47:22.739 --> 0:47:24.279 encouragement based on. 0:47:24.630 --> 0:47:28.189 The truth of scripture that you would speak over people. 0:47:28.469 --> 0:47:31.310 Old Testament prophets spoke the word of the Lord. We 0:47:31.310 --> 0:47:34.550 in the New Testament, now that revelation has been finished 0:47:34.550 --> 0:47:36.229 through the Holy Spirit, we are reminded by the Holy 0:47:36.229 --> 0:47:39.949 Spirit of key passages, key truths of God to speak 0:47:39.949 --> 0:47:42.590 as blessing over people. And so the reason it edifies 0:47:42.590 --> 0:47:46.390 the church because you're doing it in public, um, your, 0:47:46.469 --> 0:47:50.748 your prayer language that you're using in private, it sounds like. 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:52.880 Um, maybe done in worship as well when you're in 0:47:52.880 --> 0:47:54.840 the church, but it, it seems to be more between 0:47:54.840 --> 0:47:57.399 you and God. It's probably more in reference to what 0:47:57.399 --> 0:48:00.709 happens in Romans chapter 8, where that when God, um, 0:48:00.860 --> 0:48:03.399 when you don't quite know exactly what to express, God 0:48:03.399 --> 0:48:06.279 knows your heart and God gives you the utterances to say. 0:48:06.399 --> 0:48:07.520 And so in many ways, 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:10.679 It's between you and God, and that's why it's not wrong. 0:48:10.759 --> 0:48:13.520 It's not bad. It just doesn't bless other people the 0:48:13.520 --> 0:48:16.360 way that if you were impressed by God about a 0:48:16.360 --> 0:48:18.560 passage to speak over someone and say, man, I just 0:48:18.560 --> 0:48:21.679 want to encourage you with this passage that God has 0:48:21.679 --> 0:48:24.790 for you, and you speak God's truth over them. Um, 0:48:24.840 --> 0:48:28.399 I've know, I've had people speak prophecy and blessing over 0:48:28.399 --> 0:48:32.280 me using God's word and, and insight that God has 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:33.060 given to them. 0:48:33.520 --> 0:48:36.238 Um, what I might need to hear at that moment, it's, it's, 0:48:36.350 --> 0:48:38.439 it really does build up the body, and that's why 0:48:38.439 --> 0:48:40.719 Paul says this is something that's good for the church 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:44.379 and we should be eager. Paul also does note then 0:48:44.429 --> 0:48:48.998 chapter 11 of 1 Corinthians, um. 0:48:49.780 --> 0:48:53.279 Oh sorry, 12, um, in verse 11 or verse 12, that, 0:48:53.330 --> 0:48:56.100 that God's the one that gives the gifts, and he 0:48:56.100 --> 0:48:58.520 gives as he determines. And so we should be eager 0:48:58.620 --> 0:49:01.100 to have that role, but God may or may not 0:49:01.100 --> 0:49:03.040 choose to give you that, that opportunity. 0:49:03.989 --> 0:49:04.800 What do you think, Sharon? 0:49:05.969 --> 0:49:10.729 I love it. OK, thank you. I appreciate it. You're welcome. 0:49:10.850 --> 0:49:11.969 Did you want to add anything, Brian? 0:49:12.739 --> 0:49:17.669 Uh, no, OK, thank, thank you, Sharon, for calling in today. Thanks. 0:49:17.790 --> 0:49:23.169 God bless you too. 888-564-6173 is the number to call, and, uh, 0:49:23.179 --> 0:49:25.469 we've got a few minutes left on today's show. Robert 0:49:25.469 --> 0:49:29.219 in Gardena watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Robert, what's 0:49:29.219 --> 0:49:30.229 your question for us today? 0:49:32.070 --> 0:49:38.439 Uh, yes. In, uh, book of Matthew chapter 18 verse 20, uh, God, 0:49:38.479 --> 0:49:42.040 Jesus mentioning that where two or more gathered in my name, 0:49:42.159 --> 0:49:44.870 I am there in the midst of them, and I, 0:49:44.919 --> 0:49:48.520 I'm understanding it, but, but I, I, I want to know, 0:49:48.580 --> 0:49:50.520 and I'm sure you guys can give me a better 0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:54.140 understanding or a deeper understanding of what God is saying 0:49:54.140 --> 0:49:54.880 to us. 0:49:55.850 --> 0:49:58.610 It means Jesus is in this studio right now because 0:49:58.610 --> 0:50:01.090 there's 3 of us. Is it that simple, Brian? 0:50:03.479 --> 0:50:03.640 So 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:05.610 are you saying Jesus isn't with me when I'm by 0:50:05.610 --> 0:50:07.259 myself in your car? No, no. 0:50:08.399 --> 0:50:12.840 No joking. Well, Robert, I think, you know, I think 0:50:12.840 --> 0:50:15.659 just in a general sense, that's why we need to carpool. 0:50:15.759 --> 0:50:19.600 I think we can believe, um, that, you know, as 0:50:19.600 --> 0:50:23.359 we gather together in, in Jesus' name that he is 0:50:23.360 --> 0:50:26.919 in our midst, but this passage is very specific and 0:50:26.919 --> 0:50:29.969 it's very specific about um. 0:50:31.179 --> 0:50:34.899 You know, kind of dealing with, uh, issues within the church. 0:50:34.939 --> 0:50:37.499 It's really interesting because this is, uh, you know, this 0:50:37.498 --> 0:50:41.880 is a passage where Jesus kind of gives some description on, um, 0:50:42.259 --> 0:50:44.860 the church. And I remember a pastor friend of mine 0:50:44.860 --> 0:50:47.780 years ago, he was, he asked me where, you know, 0:50:47.899 --> 0:50:51.529 where's that passage that says, uh, that he who refuses 0:50:51.530 --> 0:50:54.100 to hear the church, let him, uh, be like, you know, 0:50:54.259 --> 0:50:55.259 he's a tax collector. 0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:58.439 And I said, it's Matthew 18. He goes, no, that's not, no, 0:50:58.560 --> 0:51:02.360 Jesus didn't say that. That's Paul. And I said, well, actually, no, 0:51:02.439 --> 0:51:05.679 it's Jesus. And the point was it's kind of rare 0:51:05.679 --> 0:51:07.959 for Jesus to speak about the church. He doesn't speak 0:51:07.959 --> 0:51:09.689 about it that much. He says upon this rock I 0:51:09.689 --> 0:51:12.040 will build my church, but you know, so here's another 0:51:12.040 --> 0:51:12.830 one of those places. 0:51:13.748 --> 0:51:18.479 And what he's dealing with here is he's dealing with 0:51:19.719 --> 0:51:23.640 Correcting, um, you know, problems within the church. So surely 0:51:23.640 --> 0:51:25.640 I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will 0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:27.399 be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will 0:51:27.399 --> 0:51:29.498 be loosed in heaven. Again, I say that if two 0:51:29.800 --> 0:51:33.080 of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:35.678 by my Father, uh, it, it will be given them 0:51:35.679 --> 0:51:37.759 by my Father in heaven. For where two or three 0:51:37.759 --> 0:51:39.880 are gathered together in my name, there I am in 0:51:39.880 --> 0:51:44.880 their midst. So he's basically speaking to those who are 0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:47.219 going to be leading his church. 0:51:47.679 --> 0:51:51.320 And he's giving them uh an authority and a reminder 0:51:51.320 --> 0:51:54.560 that when they make decisions, you know, they're gonna have 0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:56.719 to make decisions and some of them are gonna be 0:51:56.719 --> 0:52:01.040 hard decisions, uh, like maybe removing people from fellowship and 0:52:01.040 --> 0:52:03.919 things like that, that he's gonna be there, uh, in 0:52:03.919 --> 0:52:05.238 the midst of them as they do that. 0:52:05.919 --> 0:52:07.840 Yeah, I think this directly relates to like you're saying, 0:52:07.919 --> 0:52:11.198 they're the authority of the church for discipline, especially in 0:52:11.199 --> 0:52:14.630 matters where there's been wrong. And, and so, you know, 0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:16.719 I've heard this, this verse applied. 0:52:17.590 --> 0:52:21.428 You know, in so many wrong ways because God is 0:52:21.429 --> 0:52:24.590 with the individual, God's with you wherever you go, but 0:52:24.590 --> 0:52:28.870 his authority to make choices and decisions as a church 0:52:28.870 --> 0:52:32.669 is when there's, there's a few gathered together versus just 0:52:32.669 --> 0:52:35.830 one person who has the authority to do something on 0:52:35.830 --> 0:52:39.290 their own, um, in a church setting, I think is dangerous. 0:52:39.350 --> 0:52:41.909 And so I do think you see, um, this is 0:52:41.909 --> 0:52:46.790 more about the authority of, you know, giving forgiveness and, and, uh. 0:52:47.179 --> 0:52:49.259 And kind of dishing out discipline. 0:52:50.429 --> 0:52:51.290 What do you think, Robert? 0:52:53.020 --> 0:52:56.248 Uh, yeah, that clears it up. I understand it now. Yeah, that's, 0:52:56.590 --> 0:52:59.830 that's similar to what my pastor said on Sunday. I 0:52:59.830 --> 0:53:02.110 just like, I didn't catch it all. I, I, I 0:53:02.110 --> 0:53:05.080 guess I wasn't paying attention like I should have been, but, um, 0:53:05.390 --> 0:53:07.469 but yeah, that's what I also read online and I 0:53:07.469 --> 0:53:09.509 just wanted it to, I wanted to confirm it with 0:53:09.509 --> 0:53:12.100 you pastors because I, I know I would get a, a, a, 0:53:12.229 --> 0:53:14.290 a near perfect answer from you guys, so. 0:53:14.429 --> 0:53:18.070 Yes, I get it now. Thank you very much. Good. Thanks, thanks, Robert. And, 0:53:18.149 --> 0:53:21.489 and it's understandable because you hear, you hear these words 0:53:21.870 --> 0:53:24.669 like Dave said. I mean, most often you hear them 0:53:24.669 --> 0:53:28.310 out of context. So you just assume that, well, it 0:53:28.310 --> 0:53:30.350 means this or it means that or it applies to this, 0:53:30.380 --> 0:53:32.310 and then you read the passage, you're like, oh, wait 0:53:32.310 --> 0:53:34.310 a second, it's a very specific thing going on here 0:53:34.310 --> 0:53:35.830 that Jesus is talking about. 0:53:36.580 --> 0:53:39.060 Has somebody written a book? If not, you guys should 0:53:39.060 --> 0:53:41.498 do it, maybe co-author a book, but I'm sure I 0:53:41.498 --> 0:53:44.380 have been packing thousands of books, so people have written 0:53:44.380 --> 0:53:46.770 a book on everything. Let me tell you. Yes, yes. 0:53:46.899 --> 0:53:48.580 So you might even have this book in one of 0:53:48.580 --> 0:53:51.780 your boxes, but just a book about all the verses 0:53:51.780 --> 0:53:53.860 that people take out of context and what they really 0:53:53.860 --> 0:53:57.419 mean because there's so many. I mean, that book would 0:53:57.419 --> 0:54:00.859 probably be at least as thick as the Bible itself, 0:54:00.939 --> 0:54:01.408 but 0:54:01.979 --> 0:54:06.580 Uh, I'm sure somebody has tackled that. Um, I know 0:54:06.580 --> 0:54:08.890 there's a little pamphlet that was written years ago by 0:54:08.890 --> 0:54:13.060 HA Ironside called Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, but 0:54:13.060 --> 0:54:16.419 he's looking more at like a hyperdispensationalism, you know, so 0:54:16.419 --> 0:54:19.299 he's kind of looking more at a bigger picture theologically 0:54:19.300 --> 0:54:21.100 than just scripture verses, but 0:54:22.530 --> 0:54:24.209 Yes, um. 0:54:26.290 --> 0:54:27.770 Yeah, OK. All right. 0:54:29.520 --> 0:54:31.330 All right, that's all the time we have on today's 0:54:31.330 --> 0:54:34.009 episode of Pastor's Perspective. Robert, thank you for calling in. 0:54:34.090 --> 0:54:36.529 Pastor Brian, good to see you in the studio. Uh, 0:54:36.649 --> 0:54:39.299 Dave Keene, good to see you here too. And uh, 0:54:39.370 --> 0:54:41.050 we've got a little bit of time left. Tell people 0:54:41.050 --> 0:54:43.290 about the Adam Keene Foundation. What it is. You can 0:54:43.290 --> 0:54:47.449 go to Adam Keene Foundation.com. Con, uh, Keene is spelled 0:54:47.449 --> 0:54:50.679 K E H N, and we're a foundation continuing the 0:54:50.679 --> 0:54:52.890 legacy of my son who was a youth pastor who 0:54:52.890 --> 0:54:55.810 passed away four years ago, unfortunately, due to a brain aneurysm. 0:54:56.280 --> 0:54:58.409 And we're trying to come alongside brand new youth pastors 0:54:58.409 --> 0:55:00.989 to help them thrive in the game of ministry, because 0:55:00.989 --> 0:55:04.630 ministry is not easy, especially when you're just starting out. 0:55:05.248 --> 0:55:09.009 So again, go to Adam Keen Foundation. Keene is K 0:55:09.009 --> 0:55:12.969 E E H N Adam Keen Foundation.com. Maybe you want 0:55:12.969 --> 0:55:14.850 to get into youth ministry, or maybe you go to 0:55:14.850 --> 0:55:17.009 a church where you've got a brand new youth minister 0:55:17.009 --> 0:55:17.290 and 0:55:17.909 --> 0:55:20.320 He or she is kind of like, what do I do? 0:55:20.399 --> 0:55:21.759 I'm kind of, yeah, free 0:55:21.759 --> 0:55:23.640 coaching for anybody who applies. That's 0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:26.748 awesome. Adam Keene Foundation.com. God bless you guys. We'll talk 0:55:26.748 --> 0:55:29.339 to you next time here on Pastor's Perspective.