WEBVTT - Pastors' Perspective-11/02/26 0:00:18.959 --> 0:00:24.320 Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. It's Monday, the 2nd 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.919 of November, and we are here live in the studio 0:00:26.919 --> 0:00:29.640 at 3 o'clock on the West Coast, ready to answer 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.040 the questions you have about the Bible, the Christian faith, 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.159 just about anything that's on your mind. We're gonna be 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:42.519 here for an hour. Phone lines are now open at 888-564-6173, 888-564-61. 0:00:42.854 --> 0:00:46.774 73, and you can also watch us live on Facebook, YouTube, 0:00:46.784 --> 0:00:50.184 and Instagram. If you're watching us, thanks for watching. Make 0:00:50.185 --> 0:00:53.784 sure you um share on your favorite social media platform 0:00:53.784 --> 0:00:56.185 where you can get more people watching. If you're on YouTube, 0:00:56.284 --> 0:00:58.624 make sure you like and subscribe and leave a comment. 0:00:58.784 --> 0:01:01.505 Let us know what you think there. And uh we'd 0:01:01.505 --> 0:01:03.104 love to hear from you. We do read all of 0:01:03.104 --> 0:01:06.345 your comments, at least I do. Well, I try to anyway. 0:01:06.889 --> 0:01:09.279 We've got Char Broderson and Mike Chaddock here to answer 0:01:09.279 --> 0:01:12.179 your questions today. Char is the lead pastor at Calvary 0:01:12.179 --> 0:01:15.258 Chapel Costa Mesa, and, uh, Mike is the senior pastor 0:01:15.259 --> 0:01:17.869 at Image Church in San Juan Capistrano. Good to have 0:01:17.869 --> 0:01:23.020 you guys here. What's new? Anything? Oh man, just busy, busy, busy, 0:01:23.100 --> 0:01:25.990 but things are good. Mhm. Yeah. How about you, Brian? Yeah, 0:01:26.179 --> 0:01:26.819 all is well, 0:01:27.250 --> 0:01:27.780 Mike. Yeah, 0:01:27.899 --> 0:01:31.619 we're doing great. Uh, we chose to stretch out kind 0:01:31.619 --> 0:01:33.339 of the fall season portion. 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.200 Um, and we do like a fall reformation series and 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:41.270 theme and everything and it's just for us, um, because 0:01:41.270 --> 0:01:44.219 this might be old news for, for many people, but 0:01:44.399 --> 0:01:46.559 for a lot of people in our background that came 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:48.898 from Calvary, like so many people never. 0:01:50.100 --> 0:01:52.919 Heur knew anything about the reformation or and they're like 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.240 oh my gosh this is amazing and what God did 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.039 and what the problems were and how much we've benefited 0:01:59.039 --> 0:02:01.320 but we don't even we're ignorant of it we're actually 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.079 even even Protestants are cut off from their Protestant roots 0:02:04.079 --> 0:02:07.549 and you know so it's uh it's been exciting and 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.409 um just kind of doing a deep dive on some 0:02:10.409 --> 0:02:15.119 of the key uh uh core beliefs and practices and. 0:02:15.509 --> 0:02:19.359 Um, reforms that the church made 500+ years ago that 0:02:19.359 --> 0:02:22.049 we still benefit from today but we're in danger of losing, 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:23.299 so I don't know, I'm a. 0:02:23.620 --> 0:02:27.100 History nerd and any chance I get, uh, I always 0:02:27.100 --> 0:02:27.430 appreciate that. 0:02:27.499 --> 0:02:29.859 Yeah, very cool. Why do you think the modern church 0:02:29.859 --> 0:02:31.809 has lost so much of that? Is it just they're 0:02:31.809 --> 0:02:37.889 afraid to be looked at as traditionalist or, or what? Like, 0:02:38.020 --> 0:02:40.139 like we're Calvary Chapel. We don't have to worry about 0:02:40.139 --> 0:02:43.499 that stuff. It's too rigid. It's too, yeah, I don't 0:02:43.499 --> 0:02:45.699 know if it's just a Calvary thing. I think it's, uh, 0:02:45.980 --> 0:02:49.960 especially in California, I think it is a, um, individualistic 0:02:50.689 --> 0:02:51.210 current like. 0:02:51.669 --> 0:02:55.029 You know, somebody said like we're Southern California is obsessed 0:02:55.029 --> 0:02:57.730 with youth. Like we want to be young, we want 0:02:57.730 --> 0:03:01.329 to be current, but also self-expressive, and, and I do 0:03:01.329 --> 0:03:03.749 think that some of the stuff that, you know, we 0:03:03.749 --> 0:03:07.669 associate with tradition feels like constricting. It feels like it's 0:03:07.669 --> 0:03:10.779 not authentically me, you know, like, and so I, I 0:03:10.779 --> 0:03:13.540 do feel like that's one of the reasons, just, I 0:03:13.540 --> 0:03:17.230 think culturally why people are separated from it. I think 0:03:17.230 --> 0:03:17.889 also 0:03:18.510 --> 0:03:21.020 Maybe some of it would be those who grew up 0:03:21.020 --> 0:03:24.100 in it. I don't know how well some of the, 0:03:24.230 --> 0:03:28.290 you know, more liturgical churches did as really connecting it 0:03:28.290 --> 0:03:32.590 to scripture and, and showing like the richness of these 0:03:32.590 --> 0:03:34.820 trainings of catechism and things like that and how they fit. 0:03:34.870 --> 0:03:37.790 I remember I had an experience with my dad. My 0:03:37.790 --> 0:03:41.630 dad grew up Roman Catholic, um, and pretty nominal for 0:03:41.630 --> 0:03:43.299 most of his life until, you know, he was older, 0:03:43.389 --> 0:03:45.549 really had like this hunger, thirst for God, and then 0:03:45.549 --> 0:03:48.010 started attending the Catholic Church, you know, really seeking. 0:03:48.609 --> 0:03:51.130 For truth. He went through their whole catechism. He was 0:03:51.130 --> 0:03:53.969 helping out, you know, leading like the church choir and 0:03:53.969 --> 0:03:56.840 things like that in his local parish. And, and yet, 0:03:57.249 --> 0:03:59.889 you know, he just felt like it, his priest didn't 0:03:59.889 --> 0:04:01.990 have the answers that he was looking for. So, you know, 0:04:02.409 --> 0:04:06.329 he finds Jesus through a non-denominational Bible study, right? Through 0:04:06.329 --> 0:04:09.570 Calvary Chapel and these things. And, and it wasn't until 0:04:09.570 --> 0:04:12.809 probably 10 years ago, my dad was down in Australia. 0:04:12.969 --> 0:04:14.529 He's got a friend down there. 0:04:14.820 --> 0:04:18.099 Um, who's an Anglican pastor, and he, you know, visited 0:04:18.100 --> 0:04:20.059 their church on a Sunday and, you know, was part 0:04:20.058 --> 0:04:23.460 of the Anglican liturgy, and it was like, oh wow, 0:04:23.579 --> 0:04:26.859 I see now. I mean, literally, it's like 40 years 0:04:26.859 --> 0:04:30.379 though of Bible study and, and being rooted in scripture 0:04:30.378 --> 0:04:33.599 to now see like, oh, the liturgy actually makes sense 0:04:33.599 --> 0:04:35.759 to me now and it's actually very rich and 0:04:35.969 --> 0:04:38.599 And very helpful for engaging in scripture, but without that 0:04:38.599 --> 0:04:43.089 biblical rootedness, um, it really does become, I think, just 0:04:43.089 --> 0:04:47.009 this kind of rote that just becomes rot, right? It 0:04:47.008 --> 0:04:49.370 just kind of means nothing to people. So that's just, 0:04:49.529 --> 0:04:51.770 I think, in my experience what I've observed, but yeah, 0:04:51.969 --> 0:04:53.770 I'd love to hear. Yeah, no, I think that's actually 0:04:53.770 --> 0:04:55.210 an excellent point, um. 0:04:55.990 --> 0:04:58.910 Yeah, I think there's different reasons. I mean, one, I 0:04:58.909 --> 0:05:02.270 think Americans are just cut off from history more broadly speaking, 0:05:02.419 --> 0:05:04.089 you know, even when we talk about 0:05:05.139 --> 0:05:08.379 Um, you know, the founding of America and things like this, 0:05:08.460 --> 0:05:10.979 like there's, there's a lot of lack of awareness, like 0:05:10.979 --> 0:05:14.150 we're not teaching history as much, um, people are less 0:05:14.150 --> 0:05:15.940 aware of history or, or, you know, just the little 0:05:15.940 --> 0:05:19.339 tidbits that, you know, a political platform wants to highlight, 0:05:19.409 --> 0:05:21.979 but like more broadly kind of having a good grasp 0:05:21.979 --> 0:05:26.060 of what's happening and, uh, one, professor of mine. 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.740 Highlighted that, you know, World War 1 and World War 2, whereas, 0:05:30.919 --> 0:05:33.410 you know, like a lot of the academics, professors, all 0:05:33.409 --> 0:05:36.638 that used to go to Europe to get their PhDs 0:05:36.639 --> 0:05:38.810 during beginning in World War 1 and World War 2 0:05:38.810 --> 0:05:42.609 where they couldn't travel, America got kind of cut off intellectually. 0:05:42.810 --> 0:05:45.008 I think Mark Knoll might highlight this in his book 0:05:45.008 --> 0:05:47.809 The Old Religion and the New World, kind of explaining 0:05:47.810 --> 0:05:52.068 to European Christians why American Christianity broadly, not just Calvary, 0:05:52.089 --> 0:05:53.970 but American Christianity broadly. 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.719 Is so is so different to them yeah it is 0:05:56.719 --> 0:06:00.638 and I think yeah we're very I think more individualistic, 0:06:00.650 --> 0:06:04.900 more forward thinking, more entrepreneurial, um, I think all of that. 0:06:05.639 --> 0:06:08.169 And then, and then to your point, which is actually 0:06:08.169 --> 0:06:12.039 very interesting, um, because my exposure to denominations wasn't so 0:06:12.039 --> 0:06:15.169 much going to the denominational church down the street growing up, 0:06:15.210 --> 0:06:17.489 it was books and it was actually going back to 0:06:17.490 --> 0:06:21.449 the sources to the 16th, 17th century, you know, reformers, 0:06:21.529 --> 0:06:23.169 so that was my exposure. I'm like this is gold. 0:06:23.250 --> 0:06:25.919 Why are we not, but a lot of people, their 0:06:25.919 --> 0:06:30.889 exposure to, you know, Lutheran, Reformed, Methodist, whatever was the 0:06:30.889 --> 0:06:31.770 down the street. 0:06:32.639 --> 0:06:36.319 Denominational church where many of them were they had departed 0:06:36.318 --> 0:06:40.900 Orthodox Christian belief and faith and all that and sometimes 0:06:40.900 --> 0:06:43.198 wrongly assumed oh well it must have been a problem 0:06:43.818 --> 0:06:47.659 inherent in the original belief system or something which is 0:06:47.659 --> 0:06:50.698 actually if you know anything about this it's not true 0:06:50.698 --> 0:06:54.699 it's they moved away from the original reformers which is 0:06:54.698 --> 0:06:56.940 why they ended up the way uh they are so 0:06:56.940 --> 0:06:59.060 I think yeah it could be just bad. 0:06:59.479 --> 0:07:02.150 Current experience and we're kind of throwing the baby out 0:07:02.150 --> 0:07:05.378 with the bathwater and not looking at the tradition, but I, 0:07:05.430 --> 0:07:08.339 I think it's also a good reminder for us, you know, uh, 0:07:08.430 --> 0:07:11.828 newer churches whether it's Calvary or, you know. 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.239 Saddleback Mariners, whatever, like any of these churches, like there's 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.400 lessons we can learn from the founders of churches, you know, 0:07:18.449 --> 0:07:21.270 the founders of these movements, and then they die and 0:07:21.490 --> 0:07:24.240 as much as their faith beliefs and practices were important, 0:07:24.289 --> 0:07:27.530 the figure always holds the movement together to some extent 0:07:27.530 --> 0:07:30.440 and there's like a fighting you'll see in all these groups, right, who, 0:07:30.530 --> 0:07:32.689 who's the inheritor of the Lutheran tradition, who's the true 0:07:32.690 --> 0:07:35.169 inheritor of the reformed tradition, and they kind of duke 0:07:35.169 --> 0:07:37.129 it out. So I think, you know, um. 0:07:37.819 --> 0:07:41.859 Instead of completely reinventing the wheel on these cycles of 0:07:41.859 --> 0:07:44.859 church life and and movements, we can look back be like, hey, 0:07:44.900 --> 0:07:47.340 what can we glimpse from those who've gone before us, 0:07:47.419 --> 0:07:50.139 those who've already been through these kind of cycles, and 0:07:50.139 --> 0:07:52.919 how can we do things better if not different. 0:07:54.340 --> 0:07:58.629 888-564-6173 is the number to call and let's go right 0:07:58.629 --> 0:08:02.229 to the phones. Beginning with Tim in Walnut, you are 0:08:02.229 --> 0:08:05.579 on with pastors Char Broderson and Mike Chaddock. Welcome, Tim. 0:08:05.829 --> 0:08:09.620 What's your question for them today? Hey, pastor, how you been? Uh, uh, 0:08:09.710 --> 0:08:12.949 I love this show. I'm a frequent listener, um. 0:08:13.509 --> 0:08:19.039 Typically Monday and Wednesdays, I'm commuting, so right around 3 o'clock. Um, yeah, 0:08:19.199 --> 0:08:22.280 so my question is this, um, so in, in the 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.539 book of Revelations, it talks about the, um, 0:08:26.590 --> 0:08:31.848 144,000, the 12 tribes from the 12 nations of Israel. 0:08:32.349 --> 0:08:35.789 I think this is, um, but my question is one, 0:08:36.990 --> 0:08:42.230 who are the 12,000? Who are the tribes like the Hebrews, 0:08:42.350 --> 0:08:44.429 you know, there's, um, 0:08:45.150 --> 0:08:48.189 Like, uh, what are the nation groups that are represented 0:08:48.189 --> 0:08:53.639 in those 12,000 from each tribe, like Italians or Hispanics or, 0:08:53.910 --> 0:08:57.110 you know, who are those people today? Do you, do 0:08:57.110 --> 0:09:00.150 you have any insight on that? And then some people 0:09:00.150 --> 0:09:04.610 tell me a 13th group, there's a 13th nation sometimes, 0:09:04.949 --> 0:09:07.929 but that's kind of controversially debated, I guess. 0:09:08.689 --> 0:09:11.610 There's a 13th nation sometimes, yeah, some, some people have 0:09:11.610 --> 0:09:13.679 the tribe of lost tribe of Dan is what they 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.850 would say like why aren't they included here, you know, because, yeah. 0:09:17.540 --> 0:09:21.238 So because you have uh Joseph along with um. 0:09:24.569 --> 0:09:28.809 Oh, actually, Ephraim and Manasseh. Ephraim and Manasseh are not 0:09:28.809 --> 0:09:32.929 mentioned here, or Manasseh is Manasseh, and then Joseph, but yeah, 0:09:32.970 --> 0:09:37.290 there's no Dan. Um, yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:42.119 you know, so Revelation, obviously written by John through revelation 0:09:42.119 --> 0:09:44.489 of Jesus Christ, uh, given to him. 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:46.939 And yet, you know, it's written. 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.980 At that time, and yet it's for a future date. 0:09:52.078 --> 0:09:54.319 And so there are certain details that are given to us, 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.248 but there are of course other details that are left out, right? 0:09:57.350 --> 0:10:00.238 And so, you know, at the time, like nobody could 0:10:00.239 --> 0:10:03.079 have foreseen, of course, except for the Holy Spirit, like 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.759 that the Jews would actually be scattered through to every 0:10:06.759 --> 0:10:09.030 nation under the earth, right? I mean, there was the 0:10:09.030 --> 0:10:11.719 diaspora at that time, but now, I mean, we think 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.910 about the discovered world since that time and how the Jews, 0:10:14.939 --> 0:10:17.078 I mean, they're literally in every part of the world, right? 0:10:17.499 --> 0:10:19.429 And so for us to, you know, try to kind 0:10:19.429 --> 0:10:21.578 of fine tooth comb and, you know, what we think, 0:10:21.629 --> 0:10:24.939 you know, 70,000 are going to come out of Italy, and, 0:10:24.949 --> 0:10:26.910 you know, this many are gonna come out of, you know, 0:10:26.989 --> 0:10:32.160 the northern region, it's just really impossible, uh, to guess 0:10:32.759 --> 0:10:37.189 anything like that, Tim. But, um, yeah, so I, I 0:10:37.189 --> 0:10:40.670 think we just have to take it, you know, as 0:10:40.790 --> 0:10:44.590 the 144,000 who are sealed, um, 0:10:45.290 --> 0:10:48.170 We have similar similar language when God speaks to the 0:10:48.170 --> 0:10:51.170 prophet Elijah that he has sealed those who belong to him. 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.050 There's this talk in the Old Testament of the remnant, 0:10:54.170 --> 0:10:57.569 the faithful remnant, right? And so God knows who his 0:10:57.569 --> 0:11:00.809 faithful remnants are, and he can gather them in a 0:11:00.809 --> 0:11:03.479 split second, wherever he needs them to be. So we 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:04.729 can be confident that 0:11:05.610 --> 0:11:09.949 Um, that God knows, and that's the most important, um, 0:11:09.970 --> 0:11:13.470 person to know, you know, where these individuals that belong 0:11:13.470 --> 0:11:15.629 to these tribes are, so. 0:11:17.119 --> 0:11:17.800 Uh, 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:19.559 does that answer your question? 0:11:20.879 --> 0:11:25.170 Uh, kind of, yeah. So like, um, I've been, uh, 0:11:25.949 --> 0:11:31.258 interested in learning about, um, so the black, black Hebrew Israelites, um, 0:11:31.910 --> 0:11:37.210 so I, I wanna know more about that in particular group, but, um, 0:11:37.989 --> 0:11:41.179 You know, but that, um, that's kind of where the 0:11:41.179 --> 0:11:45.150 whole concept of, uh, the tribes, the different tribe, the 0:11:45.150 --> 0:11:49.550 tribe of Judah, they believe that they are the original 0:11:49.550 --> 0:11:53.829 Hebrews that were scattered, you know, back, um, 0:11:54.828 --> 0:11:59.559 In, uh, Deuteronomy. So, um, I've listened to a lot 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.439 of their evidence and it seems, um, 0:12:03.970 --> 0:12:08.569 Plausible. Um, I would say very plausible if you look 0:12:08.569 --> 0:12:12.090 at the evidence that that in fact is who those 0:12:12.090 --> 0:12:15.970 people are, and that's where the original inhabitants where they 0:12:15.970 --> 0:12:16.610 came from. 0:12:17.550 --> 0:12:20.069 So, but I was just curious like why does, um, 0:12:20.189 --> 0:12:21.470 so if you can tell me about them, if you 0:12:21.470 --> 0:12:24.869 know anything about them, but why are other, other nations 0:12:24.869 --> 0:12:25.319 not 0:12:25.999 --> 0:12:26.989 Like, uh 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:33.400 Specifically re rep um, represented. Uh, does, does that make 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:34.360 sense what I'm asking? 0:12:35.270 --> 0:12:37.628 Uh, yeah, I think there's a few kind of questions 0:12:37.629 --> 0:12:40.730 in there. So obviously the black Hebrew Israelites is a 0:12:41.150 --> 0:12:44.410 more recent movement. So that's not an ancient movement. Of course, 0:12:44.550 --> 0:12:46.699 their story and you, you know, and I, I don't 0:12:46.699 --> 0:12:48.020 use the myth and, and. 0:12:48.590 --> 0:12:51.449 Necessarily the sense of false, although I, I, I do 0:12:51.449 --> 0:12:54.109 think their claims are untrue, but myth in the sense 0:12:54.110 --> 0:12:57.670 of people put forth an origin story. Hey, we're, we're 0:12:57.670 --> 0:13:00.780 actually this, OK, but where does that story come from? 0:13:00.869 --> 0:13:03.639 That's actually a relatively new story to be told, and 0:13:03.639 --> 0:13:05.550 they just come on the scene and say, oh, hey, 0:13:05.629 --> 0:13:07.589 we're this right from way back. Well, OK. 0:13:08.619 --> 0:13:11.480 Who, who started saying that, well, it was actually fairly 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.350 recently that you said that. What's your evidence? That's a 0:13:14.350 --> 0:13:19.449 nice claim. It's very interesting. What's your actual evidence for it? So, um, yeah, 0:13:19.569 --> 0:13:22.650 so on that, that's a separate question but then I 0:13:22.650 --> 0:13:27.809 think again kind of there's, there's different historical perspectives of 0:13:27.809 --> 0:13:31.729 course on eschatology and, and I'm speaking within the broader 0:13:31.730 --> 0:13:34.210 Orthodox Christian world, um. 0:13:34.790 --> 0:13:37.790 On eschatology, on revelation, and so they can give you 0:13:37.790 --> 0:13:42.749 some different answers specifically to the question of why this 144,000, 0:13:42.869 --> 0:13:47.378 why this number, why these tribes. Um, one answer that's 0:13:47.389 --> 0:13:51.069 been given from the dispensationalist camp is that again. 0:13:51.429 --> 0:13:54.059 This is important because this has to do with God's 0:13:54.059 --> 0:13:57.790 dealings with the children of Abraham according to the flesh, 0:13:57.910 --> 0:14:00.748 not just those who were saved because as Paul would 0:14:00.749 --> 0:14:03.389 say in Galatians, those who place faith in the Messiah 0:14:03.389 --> 0:14:07.569 are actually Abraham's children spiritually speaking, and this is, um, 0:14:07.590 --> 0:14:09.719 spiritual Israel if you want to put it that way, 0:14:09.949 --> 0:14:13.189 but God still is going to have dealings with ethnic Israel, 0:14:13.270 --> 0:14:15.129 the descendants of the flesh, and through. 0:14:15.860 --> 0:14:19.249 The period of the tribulation, the idea is that even 0:14:19.249 --> 0:14:23.480 though ethnic Israel be there, God's gonna preserve a certain number, 0:14:23.610 --> 0:14:26.090 a remnants, and this theme of remnant, of course, runs 0:14:26.090 --> 0:14:28.689 throughout the whole Bible from the Old to the New Testament, 0:14:28.730 --> 0:14:32.170 and he's going to preserve people who have not bowed 0:14:32.170 --> 0:14:35.129 the knee as it were, from each of these tribes, 0:14:35.139 --> 0:14:37.389 and so there's kind of a broader narrative. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.119 Redemptive historical reason as to why God would do that specifically, 0:14:42.199 --> 0:14:44.489 why these tribes there, and of course that doesn't mean 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.999 no one else can be saved or anything like that, 0:14:47.119 --> 0:14:52.679 but there's a particular function that the 144,000 plays as 0:14:52.679 --> 0:14:57.800 witnesses to God. And again, that's one particular Gritian view, uh, 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.239 the traditional kind of non-dispensational view sees this as a 0:15:01.239 --> 0:15:05.280 symbolic number, you know, 12 x 12, um. 0:15:05.739 --> 0:15:08.139 To the 10th cubed and so it's sort of this 0:15:08.139 --> 0:15:12.579 perfect number which pictures the wholeness of all of God's 0:15:12.579 --> 0:15:15.540 people grafted in Jew and Gentile alike and then they 0:15:15.540 --> 0:15:16.739 would cite passages. 0:15:17.020 --> 0:15:19.949 In the New Testament where Paul refers not all who 0:15:19.949 --> 0:15:22.499 are of Israel are really of Israel, a Jew is 0:15:22.499 --> 0:15:25.610 not merely a Jew who's one outwardly, but rather inwardly, 0:15:25.860 --> 0:15:28.730 not according to the flesh, but the spirit, and so, 0:15:28.819 --> 0:15:32.559 and they have their arguments for that and obviously different churches, 0:15:32.619 --> 0:15:37.059 denominations can take hard lines, uh, on those. 0:15:37.619 --> 0:15:40.660 Views and they do uh for me I feel like it's, 0:15:40.699 --> 0:15:44.429 it's not quite as clear cut in either direction as 0:15:44.429 --> 0:15:47.739 these camps. I think they both make valid points and 0:15:47.739 --> 0:15:50.259 me personally, I don't wanna pick and choose which scriptures 0:15:50.259 --> 0:15:52.460 hey well these ones support my view so hey, I'm. 0:15:52.639 --> 0:15:54.639 with this, it's like, no, you know, they make a 0:15:54.639 --> 0:15:56.639 good case here they make a good case here. I'm 0:15:56.639 --> 0:15:59.960 not sure for me the door is closed on either side, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.590 but I wanna keep thinking through it, reflecting on it, 0:16:02.679 --> 0:16:05.520 praying about it, and who knows, um, God has a 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.720 way of surprising us in our understanding. 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.699 Tim, thanks for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective 0:16:11.699 --> 0:16:17.600 at 888-564-6173. Don't forget you can also send us your 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:22.239 questions online through the Pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com, which 0:16:22.239 --> 0:16:24.920 you can easily get to by scanning that QR code 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.199 there if you're watching us on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. 0:16:28.540 --> 0:16:33.040 There's also the Pastor's perspective Facebook page using Messenger. That's 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:34.579 another way to get your question to us or by 0:16:34.579 --> 0:16:38.540 DMing us on the pastor's perspective Instagram. Robert and Duarte 0:16:38.540 --> 0:16:42.929 wrote in through the pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com and 0:16:42.929 --> 0:16:47.900 he asks pastors, why do you constantly respect the Jews? 0:16:48.319 --> 0:16:52.400 They tortured Jesus. They killed Jesus. They mocked Jesus. They 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.119 laughed at Jesus on the cross. Don't you know that 0:16:55.119 --> 0:16:58.759 the Jews make fun of Jesus? Shame on you. Don't 0:16:58.759 --> 0:17:02.020 you know that Jesus hated the false teaching of the Pharisees? 0:17:02.319 --> 0:17:06.600 Many Jews viciously hate Jesus to this very day. Why 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.520 don't you stick up for our Lord and Savior? 0:17:10.360 --> 0:17:11.350 What do you guys say? 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.399 Well, I don't know who they're talking to, so that's, um. 0:17:15.888 --> 0:17:18.739 But I, I think ironically they sort of are making 0:17:18.739 --> 0:17:22.820 the same hasty generalization they're attacking, you know, so on 0:17:22.820 --> 0:17:24.379 the one hand, you just stand up for all Jews 0:17:24.379 --> 0:17:27.619 in all situations and you're attacking them, you know, when 0:17:27.619 --> 0:17:30.410 you say, uh, well, don't you know the Jews did this, 0:17:30.420 --> 0:17:33.520 and then, well, obviously not all of them. So Jesus 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.339 was a Jew, the apostles were Jewish, the first Christians 0:17:36.339 --> 0:17:39.139 were Jewish. There's still a remnant. Paul has said in, 0:17:39.249 --> 0:17:41.700 in Romans 9 through 11, he himself is evidence of 0:17:41.700 --> 0:17:43.060 that remnant. There's been a remnant. 0:17:43.259 --> 0:17:45.099 Throughout history as there is to the present day. So 0:17:45.099 --> 0:17:47.259 just even as far as that goes, once again, that's 0:17:47.259 --> 0:17:52.218 just a hasty generalization, and I think that kind of rhetoric, um, 0:17:52.459 --> 0:17:55.629 not that this is intended by the person asking the question, 0:17:55.859 --> 0:18:00.820 it has been used sadly throughout history, uh, particularly in 0:18:00.820 --> 0:18:01.599 old Europe. 0:18:02.009 --> 0:18:04.650 You actually see this, uh, kind of all over the place. 0:18:04.729 --> 0:18:07.129 There were his views and, and, and as much as 0:18:07.129 --> 0:18:09.320 I like Martin Luther, this is something you have to 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.919 contend with when you look at, uh, some of his writings, um, 0:18:13.050 --> 0:18:15.920 although his views wouldn't be the same as, you know, uh, 0:18:16.050 --> 0:18:18.650 modern people who in their concept of race, which is 0:18:18.650 --> 0:18:22.889 a modern 19th century European construct, but be that as 0:18:22.888 --> 0:18:27.089 it may, um, I just think one of those things is, hey, I, 0:18:27.170 --> 0:18:31.030 I would never stand up or defend somebody. 0:18:32.030 --> 0:18:35.030 When they're in the wrong, I don't care who they are, 0:18:35.310 --> 0:18:38.070 you know, now I can still support someone like if 0:18:38.070 --> 0:18:40.670 I have a friend or somebody I care about, I'll 0:18:40.670 --> 0:18:43.179 still support them generally speaking, like, hey, I love you, man, or, 0:18:43.190 --> 0:18:45.450 you know, I'll support you, but this thing you're doing 0:18:45.450 --> 0:18:48.349 is not right. So I think there just seems to 0:18:48.349 --> 0:18:50.550 be kind of an all or nothing mentality with a 0:18:50.550 --> 0:18:53.070 lot of people on, on two completely different sides. 0:18:53.469 --> 0:18:57.270 Either everything Jewish people are doing in this in state of, 0:18:57.310 --> 0:18:59.950 and that's the other thing too. Are we talking about ethnicity? 0:18:59.989 --> 0:19:01.749 Are we talking about the nation state? Are we're talking 0:19:01.749 --> 0:19:02.468 about so. 0:19:02.839 --> 0:19:04.999 Um, or are you putting them all in one basket, 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.520 but for some people, let's say state of Israel, for example, 0:19:07.830 --> 0:19:10.239 they'll say we stand with Israel, and what that means 0:19:10.239 --> 0:19:13.400 is not only are we supportive, we actually believe every 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.999 single thing they do is, is good and right and 0:19:15.999 --> 0:19:18.959 have God, every missile, every bomb, whatever, and we have 0:19:18.959 --> 0:19:22.040 to defend that. On the other hand, there's the people 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.759 who you have no right to exist, you know, you're, 0:19:24.859 --> 0:19:27.800 you're horrible. Everything you do is, is wrong and evil 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.138 and you kill Jesus and all that kind of stuff and. 0:19:30.550 --> 0:19:33.679 And the, the truth is neither of those things, you 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:35.080 know what I mean? As a matter of fact, I 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.920 point out, uh, does God love Israel? Yes, of course, 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.119 but who's been more critical of Israel than God in 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.479 the Bible? I mean, I don't know when the last 0:19:43.479 --> 0:19:46.839 time anyone read the prophets was, but regularly God is 0:19:46.839 --> 0:19:48.599 critiquing his people over. 0:19:48.690 --> 0:19:52.660 And over and over again in very harsh, very harsh language. 0:19:52.770 --> 0:19:56.030 So again, and I'd still say God loves Israel, but again, 0:19:56.249 --> 0:19:59.209 God chastens those whom he loves. So I think when 0:19:59.209 --> 0:20:02.530 you quote stand with somebody you love them, you need to, 0:20:02.650 --> 0:20:05.169 that needs to be a biblical sort of standing and loving, 0:20:05.290 --> 0:20:08.229 not some sentimental, uh, you know. 0:20:09.020 --> 0:20:11.320 I think just sort of rhetorical thing that we say 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.458 that's not very thoughtful. If we genuinely love somebody and 0:20:14.459 --> 0:20:16.399 we want to stand with them, we will also criticize 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.379 them when they are wrong. And I think if we 0:20:19.379 --> 0:20:23.420 do that consistently as Christians, pastors, I think we'll probably 0:20:23.420 --> 0:20:26.258 avoid at least some of these kinds of questions that 0:20:26.259 --> 0:20:28.998 I think are a little bit, um, hyperbolic. 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:30.080 Yeah, absolutely. 0:20:30.540 --> 0:20:33.530 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Mike, that was 0:20:33.530 --> 0:20:37.060 very thorough in your answer. I also just think, you know, 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:40.020 to your point, when we look at scripture, um, I 0:20:40.020 --> 0:20:42.540 think a theme that we see in both the Old 0:20:42.540 --> 0:20:44.139 Testament and the New Testament. 0:20:44.479 --> 0:20:49.099 The prophets, uh, with the nation of Israel, Jesus with 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.119 the leaders of the nation of Israel. Jesus is right 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:53.718 in line with the prophets. You know, the prophets are 0:20:53.719 --> 0:20:55.758 going to the kings, they're going to the princes, they're 0:20:55.759 --> 0:20:58.119 going to the leaders of the nation and accusing them, 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.830 you've led God's people into idolatry, and that idolatry has 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.200 led to injustices and abuses. Look at the poor, the foreigner, 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:08.800 the fatherless. You don't care about the things that God 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:10.599 cares about. So they're, you know, I always talk about 0:21:10.599 --> 0:21:13.479 the prophets are the covenant gatekeepers. They're calling Israel back 0:21:13.479 --> 0:21:17.200 to covenant keeping, and then warning of God's judgment if 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:19.280 they don't, you know, turn back to Yahweh. 0:21:20.030 --> 0:21:22.989 Jesus is doing the exact same thing with the Pharisees, 0:21:23.070 --> 0:21:26.219 with the Sadducees, the religious leaders. He's pointing them back 0:21:26.219 --> 0:21:31.369 to true, um, you know, mosaic righteousness. It's whole person righteousness. 0:21:31.430 --> 0:21:34.869 He's constantly using the prophets to critique them, uh, to 0:21:34.869 --> 0:21:38.869