S1: BCG acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and
S1: their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our
S1: respects to their elders, past and present.
S2: The reason why it's so critical is because everything that
S2: we do in every group has human interaction at its core.
S2: The quality of our lives is determined by the quality
S2: of our relationships, overwhelmingly. It's a basic human need. Being
S2: part of a supportive, caring group has a bigger impact
S2: on our health, both physical and mental, than anything else.
S2: More than getting the right exercise, eating the right diet,
S2: going to the doctor, taking the right medicine. Being part
S2: of a supportive, healthy group is just a basic human need,
S2: and that's why it's so important to be able to
S2: address conflict early and appropriately. It's just determines the quality
S2: of our lives.
S3: Welcome back to Shared Solutions by BCG. I'm Janine Batters.
S3: I'm excited to be bringing you another series sponsored by
S3: Action Steel. Planning for prosperity. It will build on our
S3: first series planning for profit. I'll talk to experts in
S3: their field about a range of areas that you can use,
S3: planning in your business to help your bottom line and
S3: your well-being. Today, we're speaking with brows up consultant Neville Brady,
S3: who works with farming families and businesses to resolve conflict. Welcome, Neville.
S2: Hey. G'day.
S3: So pleased to have you here, Neville. Today I'm really
S3: looking forward to our chat. But as we always do
S3: just to get started, can you give our listeners a
S3: little bit of a background on who you are, what
S3: you do, and why you're interested in conflict resolution?
S2: Yeah. Chose the right parents. Janine grew up in a
S2: family that had shearing contractor mum, a whimsy, witty woman
S2: that dealt with a lot of conflict with humour as
S2: we were growing up. Why in this area? It started
S2: out I the last job I had was sales manager
S2: of a radio station, and that's where I undertook some
S2: training and studies in marketing. National mutual purchased one of
S2: the assignments way back when, in 92, and it just
S2: sort of found my way into this. Started out in consulting,
S2: and it's been a learning process for 35 years. And
S2: the real education has come from working with different businesses.
S2: And for the bits, the clunky bits, the bits that
S2: didn't work. Reflecting on it and a continuous improvement process.
S3: I thought you were going to say, Neville, you got
S3: into a lot of fights.
S2: Well, there are low level different types of fights, isn't there, Janine?
S2: Like so. It's what we construe as fighting conflict, but
S2: I've been trained in counseling, family mediation and importantly, mental
S2: first aid health. We have a slogan that we help
S2: people fix the bits that give them the shits. And
S2: in every group there is, whether it's a family group,
S2: social group, community group, there's always gaps between what's actually
S2: happening and what everyone feels should be happening, which of
S2: course creates conflict.
S3: I think that paints a picture of you, Neville, very
S3: well for our listeners.
S2: And we try to do it with humour, with like
S2: some circumstances, there is no humour in it. However, humour
S2: is a great tension reliever in the right and appropriate
S2: environment and with the right appropriate words.
S3: It can make people relax, can't it? It makes things easier. Okay, good.
S3: So we'll jump in. Neville, why is conflict resolution and
S3: being confident in being able asked to resolve conflict, important
S3: in farming.
S2: And because of the high stakes in family farming, there's
S2: an extra layer of complexity that we witness compared to
S2: workplace businesses without that family connection. Now, in family farms,
S2: one of the things is sometimes we talk to our
S2: family members like we would not dare talk to a
S2: staff member or a work colleague. So in the reason
S2: why it's so critical is because everything that we do
S2: in every group has human interaction at its core. The
S2: quality of our lives is determined by the quality of
S2: our relationships, overwhelmingly. It's a basic human need. Being part
S2: of a supportive, caring group has a bigger impact on
S2: our health, both physical and mental, than anything else. More
S2: than getting the right exercise, eating the right diet, going
S2: to the doctor, taking the right medicine. Being part of
S2: a supportive, healthy group is just a basic human need,
S2: and that's why it's so important to be able to
S2: address conflict early and appropriately. It's just determines the quality
S2: of our lives.
S3: That's a really good point because you don't often think
S3: about it like that, do you? I was interested when
S3: you said, we don't often talk to our family members
S3: in ways that we perhaps wouldn't talk to staff. Do
S3: you think that it's also a case of perhaps we'd
S3: ask family members to do things, perhaps that we wouldn't
S3: ask staff to do, and then that creates conflict as well.
S2: At the core of that is expectations. Sometimes we expect
S2: more from family because they're so involved, like overworking. And
S2: if we're living on the farm, we're living at work
S2: seven days a week. So it's something that there's an
S2: expectation to overwork and over involve.
S3: That's such a critical link. I think that expectation, because
S3: I feel like the difference in expectations is so often
S3: where conflict arises.
S2: Everyone has a has a notion of fairness, and everyone's
S2: expectations varies based on backgrounds, upbringings, cultures. And it's something
S2: that aligning expectations and each one having the same view
S2: of expectations is a great place to start.
S3: Is making sure everyone's on the same page.
S2: Correct, same understanding and just with the language. Sometimes I
S2: remember being on this farm, and I heard the older
S2: brother use some expletives that their would not tolerate in
S2: any workplace. And, um, about a month later, I used
S2: those same expletives with him, and he said, you can't
S2: talk to me like that. And I said, that's a
S2: great point. Can't talk to your other siblings like that either.
S2: So not that I used, you know, fire with fire,
S2: but for him to experience it from someone else's point
S2: of view and as the person receiving and hearing those
S2: words is different to how it's sent. So the expectations
S2: were in this business was agreeing to the way that
S2: we would communicate.
S3: And you were really building empathy there, weren't you, because
S3: you're helping them understand how the other person felt.
S2: Correct. Empathy is at its core, and it's it's that
S2: vicarious experience. And we have a process in conflict resolution.
S2: And we might go into it a bit more through
S2: the podcast and it's VIP.
S3: Let's talk about that.
S2: Neville V if you picture two people standing facing each
S2: other and there's a number on the ground that they're
S2: both arguing over now, the number is six or the
S2: number is nine, depending on where you're standing, depending on
S2: your point of view. So people are arguing this is
S2: a six, Janine. And you're saying, no, it's a nine.
S2: Now the VIP. I'm pausing a bit because I want
S2: to make sure this is really heard. V stands for validate.
S2: It's me repeating not parrot fashion, but just repeating back
S2: to you, Janine, what I heard you say and how
S2: you felt. Now, if I do that accurately one it
S2: validates the other person's position and that can be therapeutic. But, Janine,
S2: it doesn't necessarily mean I'm agreeing with you. I'm just
S2: validating what I'm hearing. And the I is for investigate.
S2: So let's have a look at some situations. What do
S2: you think we should do here. What are the options.
S2: And then P stands for pick one. Pick a solution.
S2: Now in every business we go into one of the
S2: biggest things listed as far as what they'd like. Our
S2: help to fix or improve is communication. What they really,
S2: I think they're really saying is fix the miscommunication, because
S2: every one of us hear things sometimes that aren't said.
S2: We interpret things in a way that's not how it's meant.
S2: So by me repeating back accurately, I don't change what
S2: you're trying to tell me, Janine. I validate so, Janine,
S2: from my understanding, you'd like my input into a conflict
S2: resolution podcast. Yes, we get it right because we all
S2: change things. We change what we hear by leaving out
S2: information and changing information. So if I do that validate accurately,
S2: that avoids the miscommunication. So it's a real process.
S3: Do you feel like that also helps you to pause,
S3: take a step back and hear what they're saying.
S2: It helps us take that moment to really clearly understand. Janine. Yes,
S2: I just did the V part of you then and
S2: you immediately said yes. It is. If I asked for
S2: one of the things that blocks listening is I'm rehearsing
S2: what I'm about to say before you have even finished.
S2: And that's that self-talk. I might be thinking, oh, bloody hell,
S2: she's having a go at me. Oh, geez. As soon
S2: as I have my say, I'm going to straighten this
S2: right up. So I've just missed what you've said. So
S2: it forces me if I'm in that habit of validating it.
S2: I have that self management and impulse control. A lot
S2: of the time to repeat back what I'm hearing you saying,
S2: which is a personal discipline of me to really listen.
S2: The biggest one of the we often ask people when
S2: dealing with others and I'll check random sample of one
S2: with you. When dealing with others kids, family, friends, colleagues,
S2: I get annoyed or frustrated when often people respond, don't listen. Yeah,
S2: very often. And the only way that I can prove
S2: that I've listened to you accurately is for me to
S2: repeat back what I've heard you say. That's the only
S2: way we can prove to someone that we've listened. Not
S2: by saying, I understand how you feel, or yes, I
S2: understand that's the only way kids learn how to listen
S2: by us listening to them without interrupting.
S3: Yes they do.
S2: That's how they learn. And when my kids were growing up,
S2: most of the time, even though I do conflict resolution,
S2: I still suffer from the same thing every other human
S2: does too. But when my kids were growing up, most
S2: of the time, especially in the difficult conversations, I used
S2: to listen to them without interrupting. And then I used
S2: to say, son, what I'm hearing is this and this.
S2: Is that correct? And you go, yes. And then if
S2: I had my say, if they interrupted me, I used
S2: to say, excuse me, did I just pay you the
S2: courtesy of listening to you without interrupting? Yes. Can I
S2: have my turn? Is that fair? And it teaches them
S2: how to listen. That's the process.
S3: Such an important skill, I think. Listening. Can you. I
S3: think with this VIP, I think we need an example.
S3: So we have an example, and then you can talk
S3: through each one, because I find that sometimes these things
S3: are very good on paper, Neville. But when I take
S3: them out and I try and do them, it's not
S3: so easy. So for example, let's think of a conflict issue.
S3: So I'm thinking, okay, what happens if I get a
S3: phone call and there's a guy waiting for the truck
S3: and he's saying, no one's here to load me? And
S3: I say, Bobby was supposed to load you at 8:00,
S3: didn't he? What? Like, that's probably a pretty fair thing
S3: if something's going to happen. And then. So he's upset,
S3: hasn't been loaded. How are you going to deal with
S3: that situation with the VIP? One of the.
S2: First things that we need to manage is our own
S2: emotions when we're in conflict. Now, in that case, I
S2: would be guessing that person would be feeling let down
S2: and maybe annoyed that he's been held up due to
S2: someone making a commitment that wasn't kept. So when you
S2: look at the four basic emotions which are anger, fear,
S2: joy and sadness, the big four, that person would be
S2: feeling what in that situation?
S3: Probably anger. Low level sadness maybe. Yeah.
S2: Disappointment. Mhm. So under anger is frustration annoyed irritated. And
S2: there's a continuum all the way to rage. So he
S2: may be feeling frustrated. So to validate is so you're
S2: frustrated at the moment because you've been held up and
S2: someone's let you down. You just quickly restate it. And
S2: if they go yes we ask can I ask a
S2: couple of questions. And that's when we investigate. Now I've
S2: been in mediations and with one family mediation I said
S2: to one person, you're so angry at the moment, you
S2: just want to fill this whole living room full of
S2: uppercuts And when I validated his anger, he went like this. Yes.
S2: Now that deep intake of breath, we often say to
S2: someone when they're upset to take a deep breath. But
S2: if we say to someone who are feeling angry, those
S2: or anxious, just take a deep breath. Usually they take
S2: a short one and say, don't tell me to calm down.
S2: By validating, we're looking for that intake of deep breath.
S3: You're allowing them to feel their anger, aren't you? You're
S3: giving them permission?
S2: Yeah. Then when people take that intake of breath, it
S2: switches off the body's production of cortisol and adrenaline, the
S2: fight and flight thing that helps us. And we're critical
S2: thinking takes place. And problem solving place in the brain
S2: is now more likely to kick in. So validating the
S2: emotions first and validating what people have said. They feel
S2: heard and it's critical.
S3: Perfect. But what about my truck driver? What are we
S3: going to do, Neville?
S2: So you want me to solve help you solve this problem, Janine? Yes.
S2: So I've just validated again. Yes, I'm good at.
S3: It.
S2: I know you are good at it.
S3: I think you're very good at it.
S2: And I might say so. Janine, what are the options
S2: that you face with as far as solving this?
S3: Well, I need to find out how the message got missed.
S3: I need to find out where the communication didn't happen.
S2: So we need to find out where that problem started
S2: from in the first place.
S3: Yes.
S2: So I just validate again. Yes. So I don't problem
S2: solve so well you're there. You're the one that knows
S2: going on. So you solve your own bloody problem.
S3: I've got time for this. I've got to load another track.
S2: And now we're into the dance, aren't we? to. Sure.
S3: Yeah. So yeah you're just validating again.
S2: Validate investigate problem solve. Now when we when we go
S2: on to farmer in a business, we just listen to
S2: and validate what everyone's saying to us that they want
S2: to fix, improve their frustrations, their concerns, their aspirations not
S2: being met. We just give everyone a really good listening to.
S2: We validate what they've said so they can be sure
S2: that we've got it and it gives them confidence. Then
S2: we just report on the themes. These are the themes
S2: now the reason themes are so important. Many years ago,
S2: I was a rather mature 14 year old and I
S2: said to mum, mum, everyone's giving me the shits. She said,
S2: oh sweetheart, everyone can't be wrong. So the theme was
S2: Neville may be the center of what the problem is.
S2: Everyone can't be wrong. So we pick up on the
S2: themes of what people are saying, which usually represents the
S2: root cause. Here are the themes. So that's the reason
S2: when we go into business, people are far more likely
S2: to listen to me is if I first listen to
S2: them and validated their view. Ah, so you're seeing this
S2: as a noun, is that correct? Yes. Then we can
S2: feel it from their point of view, which is that
S2: empathy response.
S3: People relax a little bit, don't they? They relax. They
S3: feel validated. They stop worrying about whether you understand it.
S3: And they can actually use their thinking brain, as you say,
S3: to then start investigating. What? Yes. So what are we
S3: going to do? So you validated me. Yep. Oh, mate.
S3: Still upset?
S2: Yep. And then the old mate is less upset and
S2: more cognizant, and then we can usually move to solution
S2: focused rather than problem focused, because people are reluctant to
S2: move from being problem focused, whether they feel they're a
S2: victim or something to solution focused without their first view
S2: being validated. Validating is a basic human need to be
S2: heard and understood. You also meet the human need to
S2: feel appreciated.
S3: It's so important, isn't it? I feel like we have
S3: spent a lot of time on the validation because it
S3: almost is the most important, probably.
S2: The best example to family example. And um, I'll tell
S2: it in the third person, like it happened to me,
S2: but one of the client's son got, uh, suspended from school.
S2: So when he went up, the first thing he did
S2: was take responsibility and said, hi, I'm just here. This
S2: is difficult from all of us as a dad, as
S2: a I can only imagine what it's like. Frustrating from
S2: your point, as far as dealing with an extroverted boy
S2: that's over the top. And I'm here to apologize. Now
S2: in conflict, someone has to wave the white flag of truce. Janine,
S2: if there's four family members arguing, there's four reasons for
S2: it and five truths. If you and I have an argument,
S2: there's three truths. There's your truth. My truth. And then
S2: there's the truth. Yeah, truth. And someone's got to take responsibility.
S2: The leader is the one that says, hang on a minute, Janine.
S2: This is my fault. You know, we've been arguing and
S2: I've been doing it the wrong way. And I just
S2: want to let I just want to apologize for what
S2: I've contributed to this. So someone this person took Responsibility
S2: and said, this is my fault. I'm his dad and
S2: I haven't been engaged. I'm not blaming you for not
S2: telling me this is going on. This is my fault.
S2: If I was an engaged dad, I'd know. And the
S2: teacher said told him what the situation was. And this
S2: dad immediately said so. My son's been a class clown
S2: showing you no respect, which is sabotaging the other kids education.
S2: Am I hearing you correctly? And the teacher immediately went, yes.
S2: So all the misdemeanors he didn't have to go through
S2: now and explain to make sure he'd been heard. And
S2: this dad understood. So that's when they moved to that
S2: solution focused bit.
S3: Yep. So is that another step then? Because you first
S3: you said, hey, I've done something wrong and waved the
S3: white flag. But that was before the validation. So I'm
S3: feeling like there might be a step that you haven't mentioned.
S2: Well, there's a little bit as far as understanding this
S2: is something that my mother was saying to me when
S2: I said, everyone's giving me the shits. It's called the
S2: conflict attribution theory. My failures, things that are happening to
S2: me are more to do with external forces. And you know,
S2: there's reasons why I'm not succeeding. But if I point to,
S2: I'll mate. The attribution theory is he's an idiot. That's
S2: why he's or he's lazy or he's incompetent. We tend
S2: to internalize it with others and put it to their character.
S2: But when it happens to us, we can justify it
S2: because our the tractor broke down or something else happened.
S2: We don't actually take responsibility. Now for those who are listening,
S2: only those because no one else is listening to this.
S2: Maybe everything that's happening in my life, I'm contributing to it.
S2: And when in a workshop, I get people to point
S2: to me with their fingers and say, Neville, it's your fault.
S2: And if everyone can imagine them pointing to someone and
S2: saying this is your fault. We then ask them to
S2: count how many fingers on that same hand are pointing
S2: directly back at us. Now, if it's my fault, I
S2: can fix it. If it's everyone else's fault, I can't.
S2: And we often are victims and say there's nothing I
S2: can do about this. Rather than thinking, what am I
S2: doing that's contributing to this? Now, if one person in
S2: a group acknowledges that it gives other people in this mediation,
S2: in this family farm that may have strained relationships, it
S2: gives permission for people to do the same thing.
S3: Makes them human.
S2: Yes. And especially not always, but most of the time. Jeanine,
S2: I see the tribal elder, the dad.
S3: You're choosing your words very carefully there.
S2: I am choosing it very carefully. I don't want this
S2: to sound sexist, but usually there's a alpha male. The
S2: the traditional framing of family farms, like in one family farm.
S2: A 76 year old dad. I did two things with him. One,
S2: I asked him if there was a difference between being
S2: a dad and being a parent. And he struggled a bit.
S2: And he said, why? And I said, you don't have
S2: to parent these 250 year old sons that you have
S2: any longer time to be a dad is being critical, blaming, judgmental,
S2: eyebrows down, coming across as a parent, talking to them
S2: like children even though they're in their 50s. And I
S2: also gave him a pen and I passed him a
S2: pen and I said, now I want you to take
S2: this pen from me. And the harder he pulled, the
S2: harder I hung on to the pen. And I said,
S2: what's the problem? He said, you're not letting go. And
S2: I said, oh, good. That's what I need to talk
S2: to you about.
S3: Oh, how did he tell you that?
S2: And when he came to the meeting, after going through
S2: some counselling, he said, listen, boys, I've got to put
S2: my hand up for something here. I've been treating you
S2: like kids, and I just want to let you know
S2: that's not what my intent was. So he flew. He
S2: just waved that flag of truce, Janine, and took responsibility.
S2: And the relief which comes under joy, anger, fear, joy
S2: and sadness was palpable in with the two sons in
S2: their 50s.
S3: That's a good point. That is such a good point about.
S3: And I have heard that, you know, if you point
S3: the finger, how many are pointing it back at you.
S3: I've heard that. But the way you explained that then,
S3: I think has been the best. And I also strongly
S3: believe in that. You can't Control what other people do.
S3: I say that to my kids a lot. You can't
S3: control what they do. You can only control what you do.
S3: And you're right. You can really take back some of
S3: your power. If you can say I'm part of the problem,
S3: and then. Then you can start thinking about solutions. So
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S3: I feel like we need a first step the little
S3: white flag. And then we've got the validate, which you've
S3: done very well. So now we're going into investigate? Yep.
S3: How do you investigate without. Because I could say. But
S3: I sent him a text message and he said, yeah,
S3: no worries. I told him about that last week. Yep.
S3: So how do how do you investigate without making the
S3: problem bigger?
S2: Okay. Yes. Um. Don't know. While I'm doing this, I'll
S2: just Google the answer. Yeah. I'll just take one step back.
S2: When we've been invited into a business, and we've never
S2: been invited into a business that's been going really well.
S2: It's only the stress and the angst when people call
S2: us in. And I'll explain what the root cause of
S2: that has been. We explain the difference between I'll ask you,
S2: is there a difference between critique and criticism?
S3: I think so.
S2: What do you think the difference is?
S3: I think well, for me, I would say critique is
S3: like positive sandwiching something which I know it's not, but
S3: I would always say something really nice and positive for start.
S3: And then I would say, I really like what you've
S3: done here. Do you think perhaps you could have a
S3: think about this? But overall you've done a really good job,
S3: whereas criticism would be like, I hate, why have you
S3: spelt that that's the wrong there or whatever, because I'm
S3: an English person. Yeah. Fix it. Yeah.
S2: Now one tone of voice in that second one, your
S2: tone of voice came across as a parent. Yes. Critical judging. Harsh.
S2: And in businesses, it's the parent in us all. We
S2: have three ego states. One is a parent, one is
S2: an adult, and one is a child. Now, when my
S2: granddaughter is pushing a pusher with a doll in it,
S2: she's been a parent. Good. She takes the doll out
S2: and tries to sit in the pusher herself. She's now
S2: being a.
S3: Baby or the.
S2: Child When she works out, she can't fit. She's been
S2: a adult. Yes. Yeah. Those three states. Now I can
S2: be a concerned, supportive parent. Is everything okay? Can I
S2: help with anything? Or I can be blaming, judgmental, critical harping,
S2: carping in the adult ego state. It's proportional, it's calm,
S2: it's even. And in a child ego state, I can
S2: throw tantrums. This isn't fair. It's not my fault. Or
S2: I can be curious and fun. Now to get back
S2: to criticism and critique critiquing. When we explain to people
S2: about investigating, we're just critiquing here. We're not criticizing, we're
S2: not blaming. So let's have a choice about what is
S2: are the things that we could do to change in
S2: order for this not to happen again.
S3: So that's how you phrase it then, don't you frame
S3: it that way?
S2: Yes.
S3: So that's the next one. And then I could say, oh, well,
S3: we probably could have scheduled this in a calendar, or
S3: we could have made that phone call and made it
S3: have a follow up message last night, or have a
S3: system and a structure.
S2: Ah, I'm glad you brought up that word structure. The
S2: number one thing that contributes to strained relationships in family businesses,
S2: particularly a loose or informal structures, job roles, responsibilities. Who's
S2: got the authority for this structures is the first place
S2: in a family mediation that we go to. And in
S2: one family business, we just put a corporate structure into
S2: a family business. We had people that were responsible for
S2: certain areas of the farm. We got people to report. Now,
S2: the first item, and if people have got a pen
S2: and a piece of paper, the first item on the
S2: agenda in any farming business structure that comes under structure, processes,
S2: procedures come under structure. Exactly what you did there, Janine. Oh,
S2: next time we should do this. And this. You're focusing
S2: on changing a process or procedure. So structures is number one.
S2: So we set an agenda where we agreed to meet
S2: every month, which is a conflict resolution meeting first on
S2: an agenda work health and safety. Farms are the most
S2: one of the most dangerous, especially for men over 60.
S2: Dangerous workplaces in Australia.
S3: Why? For men over 60.
S2: Falls were not. As we lose some muscle mass, our
S2: ego still says, yes, I can still wrestle that ram
S2: and we tend to take more risks. But with older
S2: fellas now I'm 63. I can't jump off the back
S2: of the ute anymore. Sometimes we try and keep up
S2: with the young fellas.
S3: Yep, yep. Okay, so keep going. Sorry.
S2: So structures work, health and safety. Let's have a five
S2: minute conversation around work health and safety. And make sure
S2: it's documented. Every month a different person brings a reminder
S2: so we share it. Second item on the agenda, which
S2: is a conflict resolution discussion rework. What were the humps
S2: and bumps that didn't go right? I was held up
S2: at the silo with a truck that was reworked. It
S2: was lost time. Now as soon as you put rework
S2: on the agenda, guess what happens to the instances of
S2: rework in that team?
S3: Less.
S2: Correct. Why?
S3: Because they don't want to stand up and say they've
S3: done the wrong thing.
S2: Correct. Exactly. Which feeds into accountability. So we're looking at
S2: structure to improve accountability. And let's have a talk about
S2: what the rework issue is and how we fix it.
S2: Third item on the agenda individual reports. We force people
S2: to talk about what they're doing. And in the reports
S2: are things like what went really well for me. Last
S2: month was my best day was my worst day was because.
S2: So we start talking about those things in an adult
S2: ego state at a meeting where we're all adults and
S2: then objectives for next month. So that's an example of structure.
S2: So the four steps are to resolve conflict better structures.
S2: Next one we look at is resources. Did you have
S2: the information technology equipment all the things you needed to
S2: do a good job. Third item competency. Did you know
S2: what to do and how to do it? Fourth commitment ambition.
S2: So we put this statement up in a business that
S2: says when things go wrong or we don't meet expectations,
S2: we need to review our structures. We didn't have the
S2: right resources to do the job properly. I didn't know
S2: what to do or how to do the job properly
S2: or commitment. I took a shortcut. Now when we put
S2: that up, we give everyone permission to talk about conflict
S2: in an emotionally mature Mindset and space where no one's apparent.
S2: Talking to others like a child. Yes.
S3: Got you. So there was a couple of things that
S3: really piqued my interest when you were speaking, Neville. The
S3: first one was the rework and how you were saying that. Yeah,
S3: nobody wants to be the one that stands up and says, oh,
S3: I marked up. However, you also then went on to
S3: say that each individual report and then they went and said, oh,
S3: this went well for me. This didn't go well for me.
S3: How do you because obviously you want less mistakes, so
S3: you want less rework, but you don't necessarily want to
S3: be creating an environment where people don't want to say, oh,
S3: I mucked up either. And that's where, you know, when
S3: you're talking about the individual reports, how this went well,
S3: this didn't go well. I think that's probably where people
S3: are allowed to be human. They're allowed to make mistakes.
S3: So what's different with can you see where I'm going
S3: with this? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
S2: When it comes from, no one wants to stand up
S2: and say, I made a mistake. That's as ridiculous as
S2: everyone wants to stand up and say they've made mistakes.
S2: We try and create an environment because we're human. We
S2: want to create an environment where people feel supported, to
S2: take responsibility and without fear of retribution, snide remarks, sarcasm,
S2: or being judged or feeling like a child. However, we
S2: are human. Like the other day I backed out and
S2: just backed into a bit of a drum. Now I
S2: should have been paid more attention, right? But we're human.
S2: We are. We're going to have lapses. But that what
S2: we mentioned earlier about the number one thing that impacts
S2: on our health more than anything else is being part
S2: of a supportive, caring group. So we do want an
S2: environment where the leader says, and a client of ours
S2: who was particularly hard to manage. Emotionally immature child, threw
S2: tantrums and called people aholes when after hanging up and
S2: I said to him, I've failed here. I'm taking responsibility,
S2: such and such. Here you can have your money back
S2: because you're still talking like this and not taking responsibility
S2: for the work environment that you've created here. Now, if
S2: you don't acknowledge this to staff, then I'm sacking myself
S2: and taking responsibility just prior to the Christmas party. He
S2: stood up in front of everyone and apologised and said,
S2: this is my fault, like that person did at the school.
S3: Because you led by example, didn't you.
S2: Lead by example? And it made everyone else permission to
S2: put their hand up and say, oh, I didn't do
S2: my best here. Now that what's creates a super performing
S2: team where they feel supported and encouraged, not condemned.
S3: And also one where it's not. We're not trying to
S3: reach perfection because perfection is not really achievable, but it's
S3: just very good.
S2: Actually, very perfect is the enemy of very good, the enemy.
S2: We put in place this continuous improvement process, and we
S2: give people permission to talk about their mishaps. And in
S2: in one place in particular, a trucking company, there was
S2: six departments all headed up by men, very deadline driven,
S2: and you could almost smell the testosterone in the room.
S2: And the and we introduced two things into their reports
S2: that got them more collaborative and more cooperative. Two things.
S2: And those two things were maintenance actions, relationship maintenance actions.
S2: One was what I'm struggling with is now I said,
S2: what I said yes. What I'm struggling with though a
S2: deadline driven. They were resource poor. We all struggle. Life's
S2: a contact sport. And the other thing. So when they
S2: that was in their monthly report, when they said I'm
S2: struggling with this, it triggered off that empathy response and said,
S2: oh look I could help you with that. Or they
S2: knew in their department, if they did their job better,
S2: it would help the others in the other department that
S2: empathy and the other one that they had to report
S2: on was who I'd like to thank for making my
S2: job easier.
S3: That's a good one.
S2: Who I'd like to thank. In a men's health group,
S2: I put up five sums on a whiteboard and I
S2: get one wrong. Just simple sums like five plus five
S2: equals ten. But I get one wrong on purpose. And
S2: I say, what do you notice said? And someone inevitably says,
S2: you can't add up. And I said, oh, you never
S2: said congratulations, you got four, right? That fifth 1st May
S2: need a bit of an adjustment. So having people permission
S2: and supported Especially feeling vulnerable is a really courageous approach.
S2: And if it's done by leaders, sorry guys, I've stuffed
S2: up here and seeing someone maturely in an adult ego state.
S2: Take responsibility gives everyone else permission to do that too.
S3: It makes such sense. And you were talking about resourcing
S3: and the truck drivers with their low resources. And you
S3: said it made a comment earlier before when you were
S3: talking about the structures and then the resourcing. How do
S3: you talk to farmers about resourcing? Because I feel like
S3: that would be an area where a lot of conflict
S3: comes up because one, if resources are tight, because there's
S3: you're trying to be profitable, there's a drought or whatever
S3: it is, or they're cutting hay, for example, but that's
S3: a high input thing, but they haven't got a lot
S3: of money. The resources are going to be less. The
S3: stress is going to be high. That means the emotions
S3: are going to be high. But you're saying just give
S3: them more resources. But in farming, that's not always so easy.
S3: What do you do now?
S2: Firstly, all through since cave people, we've fought over resources.
S2: We still are fighting over resources today. Look what's happening
S2: in over in Russia. Fighting over resources. Land. We've always
S2: done it. And today we can be resource poor. And
S2: there's plenty on, especially on farms when we're looking at
S2: the resources. And in some inputs, like rain is an
S2: input way more. Look at the resources that are within
S2: our influence or control to provide. Now, I was on
S2: a board of a grain cleaning business and in our
S2: strategic plan was to add bunkers, but that meant buying
S2: the land next door. It took us four years to
S2: do that, and when we're looking at a business fixing
S2: it up, we put all the opportunities into a matrix,
S2: into one of four areas one. High impact, low cost.
S2: We do all those first. Yeah. Low impact, high cost.
S2: We get rid of those. High impact high cost may
S2: need to go into a capital expenditure budget or something
S2: like that. It may take some years to get out,
S2: but realistically we look at the minimum resources that we
S2: need here to make sure that we can still remain viable.
S2: People in groups fight over resources.
S3: Can you give me an example? Because I feel like
S3: that would really help our listeners. So I'm thinking I'm
S3: thinking harvest time, Neville and everyone. It's an expectation. As
S3: we talked about before, the works on We've Got to Work.
S3: But then someone was tired and the chaser bin was
S3: going and oh no, I've just smashed the auger off
S3: the side of the header because I wasn't communicating properly
S3: with the chaser bin driver or something. Everybody's tired. Rushing up.
S3: The rain's coming. We've got to get it off. What
S3: would have been ideal is if we had another header
S3: driver or another chaser bin person to take over, but
S3: the fact is we can't get anyone, Neville, because it's
S3: really hard to get farm workers at the moment. And
S3: then I'm having a big, you know, radio war with
S3: the chaser bin driver or I'm not. But you know,
S3: what are we doing? Easier said than done, I feel.
S2: Oh, absolutely. In one farm where an incident occurred and
S2: they went through the structure, resources, competence, commitment process, they
S2: made a decision that I hadn't heard of before and
S2: during harvest, to have a day off once a fortnight,
S2: a day off in harvest, because they had a look
S2: at it and they said, we've never got the crop off,
S2: but there's this culture of sickness. Let's go just in
S2: case there's one chance in 100 or 50 we're going
S2: to be flooded out or, you know something's going to happen.
S2: So they knew that sleep was a resource, and there
S2: wasn't just the people, the numbers of people out there,
S2: like as far as every one of our agricultural clients
S2: has a position vacant. Yeah, but they made the decision
S2: to have a day off every fortnight for where people
S2: could refresh, for example. So when the times are resource poor,
S2: we've just got to go through the process of refitting
S2: and it's often much easier said than done. But follow
S2: that process structure, resources, competencies, commitment.
S3: That makes so much sense when you see sleep as
S3: a resource, I feel. And then if you rather than
S3: trying to change something at harvest time or a month
S3: before harvest, if you really go back and do that
S3: planning in your culture, as you say, then you're going
S3: to see sleep as a resource, which I just I've
S3: never heard of that before really. It is such a
S3: resource and I think it would save. Not only is
S3: it going to save the conflict, but it's also going
S3: to save probably farm safety as well, because I feel
S3: like there's a real in farming, there's an expectation or
S3: an idea that's just farming, that farming is just manic
S3: or harvest is just manic, when really, if we take
S3: the time, as you say, to, to plan, we not
S3: only are we probably looking after our health better, we're
S3: not going to smash up the machinery less conflict, which
S3: as you say, is the most important thing for our
S3: health is a relationships are going to be better, but
S3: everything is just going to run smoother. And I think
S3: just putting maybe we should have that in the spreadsheet.
S2: Sleep well. Um, we provide farms with what we call
S2: a farm activity and responsibility manager. It's a spreadsheet. In it,
S2: they put all their processes like planning. When are we
S2: going to do post harvest debrief is what are the
S2: learnings like in this um, just leaves the grand final,
S2: for example. That's just at this time that we're doing this,
S2: the AFL Brisbane Lions lost last year's grand final, and
S2: what they got them to do was write down all
S2: the learnings that they took from that. And how do
S2: we apply it in next year? It's a basic conflict
S2: resolution process.
S3: Chris Bacon just said he modelled off Sydney didn't he,
S3: in the speech. Yeah.
S2: Thank you Sydney. And we beat you with it as well.
S3: It was like oh but it was a good game.
S3: I thought that was an interesting comment though. We've covered
S3: a lot of ground that I am conscious of your time,
S3: but I did have a couple of other things that
S3: I just wanted to to cover. So you have something
S3: that you use called Browse Up? Yes. I wanted you
S3: to explain that, but I also wanted you to explain
S3: how you keep them up, Neville. Because and how you
S3: are aware that even your eyebrows are down.
S2: Oh, look, in 2004, we were involved in doing some
S2: men's health right through outback New South Wales in the
S2: grips of the millennium drought. And it's still one of
S2: the most profound things that I've been involved in. Men
S2: came along to this evening. If this has raised any issues,
S2: please reach out. But men more than 400% more likely
S2: to complete suicide than women. Wow. We went around outback
S2: New South Wales, Tilpa, Nymagee, Brewarrina, and we got men
S2: to complete depression health checks. And the next day we
S2: went through the health checks and contacted people with high scores. Now,
S2: it was a throwaway line at one of these nights
S2: and said, boys, when you go home with your eyebrows up,
S2: if you go home with eyebrows down, you look grumpy,
S2: then the partner looks grumpy, and then the kids say,
S2: oh shit, moods are contagious. Bad pushes out good. So
S2: me having my eyebrows up just makes me cognizant of
S2: how I'm feeling, especially in stressful situations. Many years ago,
S2: one of my sons and I shared this person. I
S2: know one of their sons said, dad, we need to
S2: have a chat, but can you eyebrows be up?
S3: You must have been having them down a lot.
S2: Oh well. Well, I was in our household. We have
S2: permission to tell each other. Keep your eyebrows up. It's
S2: just a little trigger. And that's why we call our
S2: group brows up. It's just a little reminder in a
S2: funny way. And when we're doing a leadership course, two
S2: people left this leadership course and said, let's eyebrow stuff.
S2: Old mate. And old mate was the truck driver that
S2: came and delivered product to them. That always must have
S2: been in a shitty mood. So with an abundance of
S2: eyebrows up, all the staff there greeted this bloke with
S2: their eyebrows up and he said, Neville after a week,
S2: his eyebrows up with two and he was saying good
S2: thanks with a smile on his face. It is a
S2: basic human need for someone to look pleased to see us.
S3: And it's such an easy thing to do, isn't it? Simple.
S3: It's simple. And as you say, attitudes or they they
S3: are contagious. Have you got something that you use? Because
S3: in mediation I'm sure that the temperatures get gets a
S3: bit hot. Do you have something that you can feel
S3: in your body or a way of telling yourself, oh,
S3: my eyebrows are starting to come down, or I'm starting
S3: to get a bit heated here. I've got to step
S3: away because I feel like for some people that's quite easy.
S3: But then for other people it can go from adult
S3: to child state in seconds. Look, it's.
S2: Something with just with conflict before we finish, fight, flight, freeze, compromise,
S2: collaborate or accommodate. There's people can undertake some training in
S2: this now self-awareness and emotional maturity, especially emotional maturity. That's
S2: where my emotional maturity. If the stressor is a two
S2: out of ten, I'm going to have a two out
S2: of ten reaction, not an eight out of ten. A
S2: person I was doing some counseling with said once, this
S2: week's been a disaster, right? I said, disaster, what's happening
S2: over in Israel and places like that, that's a disaster.
S2: And there's some things are. And I said the disaster
S2: was two people disagreed with the decision she made. So
S2: this week's been a disaster. Yeah. It's disproportional. We all realize.
S2: And it's that awfulizing this is the worst place in
S2: the world to work. A staff member said to me
S2: once and I said, shit, you've been busy.
S3: I would love.
S2: That. Where can I see your passport?
S3: Way to validate.
S2: It. Yeah, well, you shouldn't be sarcastic. That's what I thought, right?
S2: I never said say it. I thought of it, though.
S2: My child nearly got out in a way on me.
S2: So being cognizant, knowing I'm getting a bit wound up,
S2: that internal voice, just what you said to yourself. And
S2: at that point I choose to disengage, which is avoid
S2: part of conflict just until I can take some deep breaths.
S2: And I've stopped several mediations and said, look, I'm just
S2: going to have a time out. They said, no, we
S2: don't need a time out. And I said, yeah, I
S2: need one. I'm just going to go for a walk.
S3: But that's good, though, that you can say that. And
S3: then that would allow them to have permission to do
S3: that as well.
S2: Absolutely. I know when you get on this anger and
S2: gets away on us, it's like a rollercoaster ride. You
S2: can't steer it. You can't slow it down. You've just
S2: got to hang on. And I know where I am
S2: in that queue to get on this roller coaster ride,
S2: and I choose to step out of the queue when
S2: it's about to become my turn. That awareness, that's where
S2: people have a very short wick. And I just want
S2: to go back to this structure bit just really quickly.
S2: We had a client that used to throw tantrums. Shocker.
S2: Now he'd been to several psychologists to help to no avail.
S2: But we went back to structures to fix it. His team,
S2: he had three on the management team. His business, with
S2: his permission, at each monthly meeting structure. We got them
S2: to report on how many tantrums he threw. What was
S2: it over and how they felt? Structure? Yes. His permission.
S2: So when we came to the next monthly meeting and
S2: they had to give the reports, he had a smile
S2: on his face because he knew that he'd behaved. So
S2: we went back to that structure to fix the process,
S2: to change the process which impacted on his commitment to behave.
S3: Because you had his permission, which I think is very.
S2: Permission. We didn't ambush him with this because he's an
S2: emotionally immature guy.
S3: You might have had a tantrum.
S2: Correct. And they were so appreciative of his change of approach,
S2: so appreciative. And it just calmed everything down. We did
S2: say to him, eyebrows up, they had permission to say, hey,
S2: eyebrows up. So we set that up and it improved.
S2: And then I got him aside and I said, now
S2: you are in trouble. He said, why? You do have
S2: control in that situation. We do have control. It doesn't
S2: have to get away on us. That emotional maturity.
S3: That's a very good point to finish on. I just
S3: wanted to go over what we'd spoken about though. So
S3: the VIP with the with the white flag probably is the.
S2: One that's that's not surrender, that's truce.
S3: Truce. And then the validate investigate, which is the critique,
S3: not the criticism. And then you pick the solution. And
S3: then you were talking about the structures. And then can
S3: you just say that again?
S2: Sources. Competencies. Commitment. We've got a farm health check audit
S2: that measures the gaps between what's actually happening and what
S2: everyone feels should be happening. Now, to fix those gaps,
S2: you improve your structures, your resources, your competencies, commitment. They're
S2: the root causes.
S3: So if you had one piece of advice for listeners,
S3: someone that's listening to this because they have a particular
S3: incident or something in mind, what would the first piece
S3: of advice be for them?
S2: Neville, take a deep breath.
S3: I thought you were going to say, sweetheart, that's a shame.
S2: Well, I will say is best of luck. Take a
S2: deep breath. Usually we look at the ranking as far
S2: as Stressor, like 100 out of 100 stressors is the
S2: death of a child. For example, 80 out of 100
S2: is jailed, been jailed, 60 out of 100 is moving house,
S2: 70th May be losing, being sacked from the job. So
S2: the first step that we look at is where is
S2: this on this ranking? Because I don't say to people,
S2: just eyebrows up if it's tragic. Yeah. And life's a
S2: contact sport. But most of what we get steamed up about,
S2: and most of it is low level stuff that's been
S2: built up over a long period of time can become chronic.
S2: But the first step is take a deep breath. Second
S2: step is saying, now what part am I contributing to this?
S2: What can I fix really quickly and take responsibility for?
S2: And then what better structures, resources, competencies, or commitment could
S2: I put in place?
S3: Sounds good. Now, is there anything else you wanted to add, Neville?
S2: Yes. Just with the blokes out there. Our death rate
S2: is twice that of women up to the age of 60.
S2: Yet we access Medicare services 30% less than women. Dads.
S2: It's okay. Let go the pen. You can never do
S2: succession planning too early. We can do it when it's
S2: too late and have a sense of humour. One day
S2: we are all going to be dead. Enjoy some of
S2: the fights that we're having and don't get stressed over
S2: the small stuff. Have a chuckle and keep your eyebrows up.
S3: If you love the podcast and would like to show
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S3: to your podcasts and share it with your friends. We'll
S3: catch you again soon.
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