1 00:00:00,340 --> 00:00:03,170 Speaker 1: Hey, repeat listener, you are about to hear the fifth 2 00:00:03,180 --> 00:00:07,030 Speaker 1: episode in this six part series. I highly encourage you 3 00:00:07,030 --> 00:00:09,690 Speaker 1: to listen in order. So if you've missed one of 4 00:00:09,690 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: our 1st 4 episodes, I suggest you stop listening to 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,930 Speaker 1: this one and go back and get caught up. Thanks 6 00:00:15,930 --> 00:00:16,450 Speaker 1: for listening. 7 00:00:26,220 --> 00:00:29,910 Speaker 1: Los Angeles County Sheriff's Deputy Michael Coburg says he knows 8 00:00:29,910 --> 00:00:32,949 Speaker 1: how to catch guys with guns. He's proud of it. 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: So that was our thing. 10 00:00:34,940 --> 00:00:37,390 Speaker 2: And for a while, the department really like this, taking 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,370 Speaker 2: guns off the streets. It's good for, 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:40,430 Speaker 2: you know, 13 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:46,430 Speaker 2: the Oh, sorry, it's loud. 14 00:00:46,630 --> 00:00:50,180 Speaker 1: Coburg tonight talked outside a Starbucks and unincorporated East L. A. 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,970 Speaker 1: What's known as a busy patrol area. We kept getting 16 00:00:53,970 --> 00:00:55,310 Speaker 1: interrupted by sirens. 17 00:00:55,580 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: You know, your violent gangs are, you know, the neighborhoods 18 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,860 Speaker 2: and whose warring and shooting at each other. So you 19 00:01:00,860 --> 00:01:02,580 Speaker 2: focus your time and energy 20 00:01:03,110 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: in those areas doing traffic stops. 21 00:01:06,580 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 2: Informants. You read the graffiti, 22 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 2: you know, and 23 00:01:11,140 --> 00:01:14,089 Speaker 2: it's really not that hard to figure out who's battling who. 24 00:01:14,940 --> 00:01:17,580 Speaker 2: And then you just start making your context contacting, contacting, 25 00:01:17,870 --> 00:01:20,060 Speaker 2: You know, eventually you're gonna run into somebody's carrying a gun, 26 00:01:20,060 --> 00:01:22,790 Speaker 2: doesn't want to go Joe. So they run. They tossed 27 00:01:22,790 --> 00:01:26,150 Speaker 2: the gun that they take off in the car. You know, 28 00:01:26,620 --> 00:01:29,100 Speaker 2: they fight you for it, Whatever. Whatever the case is, 29 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,610 Speaker 1: Kobrick said he worked hard, won a spot on the 30 00:01:31,610 --> 00:01:33,190 Speaker 1: department's elite gang unit. 31 00:01:33,709 --> 00:01:36,050 Speaker 1: He did what he was asked to Dio, and he 32 00:01:36,050 --> 00:01:39,369 Speaker 1: was asked to get criminals and guns off the street. 33 00:01:40,540 --> 00:01:42,990 Speaker 1: He loved it the way you love something you feel 34 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: good at, but he had to stop, he said. It 35 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,350 Speaker 1: wasn't his choice. It was his department's. He got benched 36 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:51,990 Speaker 2: Right now. They don't want guys out there 37 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,450 Speaker 2: chasing down bad guys because of the force or potential shooting. Or, 38 00:01:56,980 --> 00:01:57,550 Speaker 2: you know, 39 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,500 Speaker 2: black lives matter who, God forbid, a white cop shoots 40 00:02:01,500 --> 00:02:04,450 Speaker 2: a black guy. They're more worried about the fallout 41 00:02:05,130 --> 00:02:05,650 Speaker 2: of, 42 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,250 Speaker 2: you know, a racial issue or a political issue rather 43 00:02:10,250 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: than serving community that needs help. 44 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: You think 45 00:02:16,940 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: that was part of it? 46 00:02:18,450 --> 00:02:20,050 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been in four shootings. 47 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:23,180 Speaker 2: Do I think that was part of it? Yes, 48 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:24,470 Speaker 2: no. 49 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:26,450 Speaker 2: So 50 00:02:28,180 --> 00:02:30,459 Speaker 2: again, they just want guys because 51 00:02:31,490 --> 00:02:33,730 Speaker 2: my partner and I developed a skill of finding the 52 00:02:33,730 --> 00:02:35,730 Speaker 2: worst of the worst, were just really good at it 53 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: and the potential of us to get in a another shooting. 54 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:40,389 Speaker 2: It was probably 55 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,870 Speaker 2: I don't want to say hi because you don't go 56 00:02:43,870 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: in the streets looking again. She That's the last thing 57 00:02:46,210 --> 00:02:47,470 Speaker 2: you want to go home to your kids. 58 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,650 Speaker 2: But when you're finding guys with guns, I don't want 59 00:02:50,650 --> 00:02:52,049 Speaker 2: to go home, so I don't care. 60 00:02:53,139 --> 00:02:55,670 Speaker 2: And so they didn't want that PR battle, which I 61 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 2: get on the business side of things. 62 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:00,350 Speaker 2: Do you think that happening? 63 00:03:01,570 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: It is. 64 00:03:02,770 --> 00:03:04,049 Speaker 2: It is happening, all of them 65 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,950 Speaker 1: you're listening to repeat, I'm Annie Gilbertson. This is Episode 66 00:03:17,950 --> 00:03:18,450 Speaker 1: five 67 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:20,169 Speaker 1: shit magnets 68 00:03:25,139 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: Cover told me, Quote. I've been called a shit magnet 69 00:03:27,610 --> 00:03:31,070 Speaker 1: my entire career. It's the type of proactive officer that 70 00:03:31,070 --> 00:03:34,389 Speaker 1: makes more arrests, finds more guns, catches more gang members. 71 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: It's always been a compliment, he said, 72 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,100 Speaker 1: and in co breaks case, he's also shot more people. 73 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,860 Speaker 1: Most officers go their entire careers without getting into a shooting. 74 00:03:44,220 --> 00:03:46,310 Speaker 1: Coburg has had four shootings. 75 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,300 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to a deputy with multiple shootings, 76 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,110 Speaker 1: and Deputy Gonzalo Inzunza didn't want to talk to me, 77 00:03:52,540 --> 00:03:53,270 Speaker 1: Coburg did. 78 00:03:54,940 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: I asked him to tell me about his experience working 79 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:58,070 Speaker 1: the streets. 80 00:03:58,960 --> 00:03:59,350 Speaker 2: I mean 81 00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:02,310 Speaker 2: with police work, especially in L. A county, especially in 82 00:04:02,310 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: these faster cities. Use of force is an everyday occurrence 83 00:04:06,220 --> 00:04:08,050 Speaker 2: for just a station. In general, 84 00:04:09,170 --> 00:04:13,050 Speaker 2: everybody thinks that cops are heavy handed. But really, we're not. 85 00:04:13,060 --> 00:04:13,590 Speaker 2: I mean, 86 00:04:14,740 --> 00:04:17,570 Speaker 2: seems like we use way less force than what's actually 87 00:04:17,570 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: needed in most cases way should people should be looking 88 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,610 Speaker 2: at these bad guys terrorizing these towns. They should want 89 00:04:27,610 --> 00:04:30,890 Speaker 2: guys like me who will walk in a dark alley 90 00:04:30,990 --> 00:04:33,090 Speaker 2: and confront this bad guy face to face. 91 00:04:33,850 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 2: But just know that I'm doing it for the right reasons. 92 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:36,370 Speaker 2: And I mean, do it legally. 93 00:04:37,310 --> 00:04:40,150 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the deep side is that for too 94 00:04:40,150 --> 00:04:45,930 Speaker 1: long officers were too aggressive on these communities, often communities 95 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: of black and brown people on. 96 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:51,570 Speaker 1: And so 97 00:04:52,460 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: so, yeah, it seems like it seems like a lot 98 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,419 Speaker 1: of the pressure shoe be less aggressive is coming from 99 00:04:58,420 --> 00:04:58,950 Speaker 1: that 100 00:04:59,540 --> 00:05:00,250 Speaker 2: viewpoint. 101 00:05:01,130 --> 00:05:03,500 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, there's always room for improvement when it comes. 102 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:04,650 Speaker 2: The tactics are 103 00:05:05,540 --> 00:05:06,710 Speaker 2: physical aggression, 104 00:05:08,140 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: and in some cities there is. I mean, if you 105 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: have ah, city that is low has a lower crime rate, 106 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:15,049 Speaker 2: the forces, and 107 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:17,290 Speaker 2: there's almost no force. 108 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:20,930 Speaker 2: But when you're in a city where these gang members 109 00:05:20,930 --> 00:05:21,990 Speaker 2: are terrorizing people, 110 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,790 Speaker 2: they don't live by a force policy. 111 00:05:25,940 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: You know, I gotta tell you, it's hard for me 112 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:29,850 Speaker 2: to think of a time where I thought it deputy 113 00:05:29,850 --> 00:05:30,660 Speaker 2: went too far. 114 00:05:31,380 --> 00:05:32,870 Speaker 2: There's times where I'm like all right, we're good, We're 115 00:05:32,870 --> 00:05:35,410 Speaker 2: good but custom when we're done, you know, because if 116 00:05:35,410 --> 00:05:36,850 Speaker 2: there is a human emotion into it, 117 00:05:38,010 --> 00:05:39,890 Speaker 2: But I can't think of a point where they were 118 00:05:39,890 --> 00:05:41,750 Speaker 2: just beating somebody up just to beat him up. 119 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: Then Coburn's life changed. E. I told you he'd been 120 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: pulled out sidelined. It happened when he caught a case 121 00:05:51,310 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: that's Deputy Speak for going under internal review being investigated 122 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,660 Speaker 1: by your own department, something you've done has raised a 123 00:05:58,660 --> 00:06:00,050 Speaker 1: flag at work. 124 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:03,910 Speaker 1: Colbert came under investigation after doing some side work off 125 00:06:03,910 --> 00:06:07,180 Speaker 1: duty and 2015 you're supposed to tell the department if 126 00:06:07,180 --> 00:06:10,290 Speaker 1: you work side jobs. According to Internal affairs records provided 127 00:06:10,290 --> 00:06:11,859 Speaker 1: by Coburg, he did not. 128 00:06:12,860 --> 00:06:15,430 Speaker 1: He was working a surveillance gig up in Ventura County. 129 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,909 Speaker 1: He was sitting in a car outside a house. 130 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:23,290 Speaker 1: Someone reported a suspicious vehicle. Local Ventura County sheriff's deputies 131 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: were called out, and there was an argument. Deputy versus 132 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,140 Speaker 1: Deputy Been sure, sheriff's officials complained, contacted the L. A 133 00:06:31,140 --> 00:06:32,020 Speaker 1: County sheriff's. 134 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:34,550 Speaker 2: Anyways, they flexed on me. 135 00:06:35,310 --> 00:06:37,390 Speaker 2: They called and told my 136 00:06:38,350 --> 00:06:38,980 Speaker 2: lieutenant, 137 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,370 Speaker 2: my lieutenant contact my sergeant. My starting asked me about it. 138 00:06:42,810 --> 00:06:45,740 Speaker 1: Eventually, the case landed on the desk of Internal Affairs, which, 139 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:48,529 Speaker 1: according to the records Coburg gave me, found Coburg had 140 00:06:48,529 --> 00:06:52,210 Speaker 1: broken rules by acting as a private detective rules about 141 00:06:52,210 --> 00:06:56,070 Speaker 1: professional conduct outside employment and unnecessary interference, 142 00:06:56,620 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: the report noted. He had been disciplined twice before. This 143 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,060 Speaker 1: time his judgment was called into question. 144 00:07:03,190 --> 00:07:05,820 Speaker 1: Colbert thinks it was a non issue that really the 145 00:07:05,820 --> 00:07:09,450 Speaker 1: department no longer wanted his aggressive approach to the job 146 00:07:10,140 --> 00:07:13,110 Speaker 1: and that this was the paper trail they needed. Who's 147 00:07:13,110 --> 00:07:13,870 Speaker 1: put inside? 148 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:16,830 Speaker 2: They did a lot of bad stuff to me. When 149 00:07:17,350 --> 00:07:18,739 Speaker 2: they pulled me out of the field, they knew I 150 00:07:18,740 --> 00:07:19,710 Speaker 2: was going through a divorce. 151 00:07:20,730 --> 00:07:22,150 Speaker 2: They pulled me out of the field, took my take 152 00:07:22,150 --> 00:07:22,750 Speaker 2: home car, 153 00:07:23,590 --> 00:07:25,350 Speaker 2: told me I wasn't allowed to work overtime, 154 00:07:26,050 --> 00:07:28,790 Speaker 2: and they made me drive to Inglewood every day, 46 155 00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:30,250 Speaker 2: hours a day in the middle of traffic 156 00:07:30,940 --> 00:07:32,150 Speaker 2: for eight or nine months. 157 00:07:34,180 --> 00:07:36,180 Speaker 2: I mean, it was pulling my hair out. 158 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: I've heard of using traffic as a punishment for officers. 159 00:07:39,540 --> 00:07:42,140 Speaker 1: It's a thing in L. A. It's called freeway therapy. 160 00:07:42,810 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: Well, kind of work. Did you have 161 00:07:43,810 --> 00:07:44,550 Speaker 2: to be? Oh, 162 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:46,650 Speaker 2: I was entering 163 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:51,239 Speaker 2: information into one of our systems where we track, you know, 164 00:07:51,710 --> 00:07:52,770 Speaker 2: if I cards stuff 165 00:07:53,430 --> 00:07:54,740 Speaker 2: tedious and it's, you know, 166 00:07:55,650 --> 00:07:56,190 Speaker 2: yeah, 167 00:07:57,130 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: but they try to write me up cause led 20 168 00:07:58,800 --> 00:07:59,350 Speaker 2: in a month 169 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: and I'm like 20 AM Like I took a couple 170 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,500 Speaker 2: days off and then I clean their entire arm, rail 171 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: washed clean like 300 guns. You know, the old joke, 172 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,130 Speaker 2: the marine peeling potatoes, you know, they were just give 173 00:08:12,130 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: me they're trying to break. 174 00:08:20,350 --> 00:08:22,750 Speaker 1: According to records, Coburg was still being paid as a 175 00:08:22,750 --> 00:08:25,980 Speaker 1: deputy around $100,000 in 2015. 176 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,620 Speaker 1: The shares department would not talk to me about Colbert's complaints, 177 00:08:29,950 --> 00:08:32,550 Speaker 1: said that what they could say was limited because officer 178 00:08:32,550 --> 00:08:34,349 Speaker 1: personnel files are private. 179 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,990 Speaker 1: Coburg returned to the field for a stent, but then 180 00:08:37,990 --> 00:08:41,410 Speaker 1: was transferred off the gang unit ousted from the job. 181 00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: He loved the reason for the transfer. Coburg Satya captain 182 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: told him he had too many shootings 183 00:08:48,110 --> 00:08:51,550 Speaker 1: in 2012 Coburg confronted a man he's suspected of drug possession. 184 00:08:51,940 --> 00:08:55,420 Speaker 1: A struggle ensued. According to D. A records. The man 185 00:08:55,420 --> 00:08:58,500 Speaker 1: bit Coburg on the thigh and reached for his gun. 186 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: Coburg shot him twice in the head. 187 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:09,170 Speaker 1: Then two years later, Colbert confronted an armed man suspected 188 00:09:09,170 --> 00:09:12,420 Speaker 1: of shooting someone. Earlier that day, the suspect fired a 189 00:09:12,420 --> 00:09:17,099 Speaker 1: Coburg and other officers. The suspect shielded himself behind his 190 00:09:17,110 --> 00:09:21,740 Speaker 1: own baby boy. Eventually the suspect released the boy. Coburg 191 00:09:21,750 --> 00:09:25,630 Speaker 1: and the other deputies finally fired back. The suspect was shot. 192 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,310 Speaker 1: The baby was not harmed. Coburn was awarded a medal 193 00:09:29,309 --> 00:09:29,939 Speaker 1: of Valor. 194 00:09:30,470 --> 00:09:34,330 Speaker 1: Despite the award, Colbert told me the department decided he 195 00:09:34,330 --> 00:09:36,790 Speaker 1: could no longer have contact with the public. He was 196 00:09:36,790 --> 00:09:38,250 Speaker 1: assigned to logistics. 197 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:39,610 Speaker 2: I'm helping 198 00:09:40,260 --> 00:09:43,630 Speaker 2: with Equipment way outside of what I was paid to do. 199 00:09:44,590 --> 00:09:46,380 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm washing trucks. 200 00:09:47,220 --> 00:09:48,470 Speaker 2: My career went from 201 00:09:49,630 --> 00:09:52,550 Speaker 2: gang unit for the largest sheriff's department in the world. 202 00:09:53,070 --> 00:09:53,420 Speaker 2: In 203 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: Compton, South Central. 204 00:09:57,390 --> 00:09:58,530 Speaker 2: The washing trucks, 205 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:03,910 Speaker 2: it's It's a joke. 206 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,670 Speaker 1: I asked the sheriff about assigning deputies this type of work. 207 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,660 Speaker 1: L. A County Sheriff Jim McDonnell said they do not 208 00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:14,220 Speaker 1: give deputies work outside the scope of an officer's responsibilities. 209 00:10:14,690 --> 00:10:17,219 Speaker 1: When I told this to Coburg. He sent me a 210 00:10:17,220 --> 00:10:19,970 Speaker 1: cell phone video of him walking into a long shipping 211 00:10:19,970 --> 00:10:24,650 Speaker 1: container cluttered with sagging cardboard boxes in a tangle of equipment. 212 00:10:25,660 --> 00:10:26,850 Speaker 2: And I've been assigned 213 00:10:27,670 --> 00:10:29,070 Speaker 2: to go through and clean it 214 00:10:31,610 --> 00:10:33,970 Speaker 2: and get inventory of all this gear, 215 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 2: and it's a ton of gear that need to be inventoried. 216 00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:45,300 Speaker 2: I think my life, this is what I do. 217 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:54,650 Speaker 1: The thing that struck Hobart that infuriates him now is 218 00:10:54,650 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 1: that if all this was really about how he handled 219 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,850 Speaker 1: himself in the field and his shootings, 220 00:10:59,380 --> 00:11:01,479 Speaker 1: Kobrick said, it seemed unfair. 221 00:11:02,740 --> 00:11:05,550 Speaker 1: He told me I didn't have any shady shootings. All 222 00:11:05,550 --> 00:11:06,650 Speaker 1: my stuff was legit. 223 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: The Los Angeles County district attorney's office agreed, found all 224 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,550 Speaker 1: his shootings to be within the law. 225 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,089 Speaker 1: When it comes to shootings, the law gives officers lots 226 00:11:16,090 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: of leeway wide latitude. If an officer fears for his 227 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,700 Speaker 1: safety or the safety of others, the shooting is often 228 00:11:22,700 --> 00:11:25,429 Speaker 1: found to be legal. It's one of the reasons why 229 00:11:25,429 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: officers are not prosecuted even when they shoot unarmed people. 230 00:11:30,540 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: There are so called awful, but lawful shootings and in 231 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: those consequences are not coming in the form of criminal charges, consequences, 232 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: decisions about officers who are getting into questionable shootings or 233 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,860 Speaker 1: violated policy or multiple shootings are in the hands of 234 00:11:47,860 --> 00:11:48,750 Speaker 1: their department. 235 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,890 Speaker 1: And Colbert told me the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department 236 00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:55,500 Speaker 1: is handling these things differently these days. 237 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,050 Speaker 2: The sheriff's department 238 00:11:57,700 --> 00:12:00,190 Speaker 2: is a political organization. Okay, 239 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: um, 240 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:05,010 Speaker 2: the facade is deputies in the streets doing police work. Oh, 241 00:12:05,010 --> 00:12:06,910 Speaker 2: we're just Oh, it's just the deputies doing their job 242 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:08,939 Speaker 2: where there's so much behind the scenes that are going 243 00:12:08,940 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 2: on politically 244 00:12:10,309 --> 00:12:10,849 Speaker 2: and 245 00:12:12,030 --> 00:12:15,450 Speaker 2: so that's how we're used. So as the political agendas change, 246 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 2: they'll come at us officers differently. So what? One year 247 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,050 Speaker 2: was amazing. Police were, you know, getting guns off the streets. 248 00:12:24,050 --> 00:12:25,550 Speaker 2: You know, you get your occasional fight 249 00:12:26,650 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: and where the next year, if you do that same 250 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: exact thing under the same exact circumstances, you could potentially 251 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:32,350 Speaker 2: be fired, 252 00:12:32,860 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: are relieved of duty or taking out of the streets 253 00:12:35,170 --> 00:12:38,470 Speaker 2: pending investigation or days taking off out of your pay, 254 00:12:38,940 --> 00:12:40,610 Speaker 2: you know, for something 255 00:12:41,730 --> 00:12:44,370 Speaker 2: that you've done 10 times before that. So they pick 256 00:12:44,370 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: and choose when they want to use these things. Oh, 257 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,250 Speaker 2: that one went to the media. I guess we better 258 00:12:48,250 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: give him 10 days off no pay. Well, that one 259 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:53,900 Speaker 2: didn't go to the media, so they're fine. Nobody knows about. 260 00:12:54,740 --> 00:12:57,349 Speaker 1: I've heard opposing ideas of what to do with deputies 261 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: who get into multiple shootings. The crux of it lies 262 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,890 Speaker 1: and how you view police shootings. Generally, do you accept 263 00:13:03,890 --> 00:13:06,350 Speaker 1: that some officer shootings are inevitable? 264 00:13:06,940 --> 00:13:10,689 Speaker 1: That shootings are more prevalent among deputies who get dangerous assignments? 265 00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: That is part of the duty something no officer wants 266 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,250 Speaker 1: to dio. But every officer must be ready to dio. 267 00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:21,350 Speaker 1: Or do you believe that multiple shootings should be considered together? 268 00:13:21,730 --> 00:13:24,690 Speaker 1: The difference between looking at the lawfulness of one shooting 269 00:13:24,890 --> 00:13:29,650 Speaker 1: an individual unique snowflake versus looking at the accumulation of snow. 270 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,290 Speaker 1: And if you believe they can be connected to the 271 00:13:33,290 --> 00:13:36,690 Speaker 1: decision making by the deputy to the training and tone 272 00:13:36,690 --> 00:13:40,060 Speaker 1: and priorities of the department, do you take stock? Do 273 00:13:40,059 --> 00:13:42,980 Speaker 1: you act and remove a deputy who's shooting again and 274 00:13:42,980 --> 00:13:43,430 Speaker 1: again 275 00:13:43,940 --> 00:13:44,739 Speaker 1: bench them? 276 00:13:46,590 --> 00:13:49,650 Speaker 1: According to a handful of former and current department employees, 277 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: officers themselves are divided on this issue. 278 00:13:53,530 --> 00:13:56,050 Speaker 1: I asked John, Fred and all about this, the homicide 279 00:13:56,050 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: sergeant who investigated the shooting of 10 L. Billups deputy 280 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: Gonzalo Inzunza, his second shooting 281 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,430 Speaker 1: bread and all told me. I think it's a travesty 282 00:14:04,429 --> 00:14:07,100 Speaker 1: if you take a hardworking deputy out of the streets 283 00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:07,949 Speaker 1: and bench them. 284 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,900 Speaker 1: Brendel says It's an officer's responsibility to arrest criminals. 285 00:14:12,590 --> 00:14:16,050 Speaker 1: It's a job that requires they get into stuff, he said. 286 00:14:16,110 --> 00:14:19,310 Speaker 1: There are shit magnets. It's difficult. Friend all told me 287 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:20,690 Speaker 1: to explain to the public 288 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:22,570 Speaker 1: I'm gonna try anyway 289 00:14:23,190 --> 00:14:24,070 Speaker 1: after this break. 290 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,110 Speaker 1: I recently found myself in Ontario San Bernadino County, east 291 00:14:54,110 --> 00:14:56,850 Speaker 1: of L. A. It's where many people have escaped high 292 00:14:56,850 --> 00:15:00,250 Speaker 1: housing prices. In l. A escaped to the desert. 293 00:15:01,010 --> 00:15:02,890 Speaker 1: I pulled off the freeway and passed and in and 294 00:15:02,890 --> 00:15:06,460 Speaker 1: out burger behind it lay Chris backdrop of the mountains, 295 00:15:06,780 --> 00:15:08,350 Speaker 1: the Angeles National Forest. 296 00:15:09,030 --> 00:15:12,050 Speaker 1: The purple silhouette of a giant sleeping on its back. 297 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,550 Speaker 1: I pulled into the parking lot of an office building. 298 00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:18,050 Speaker 1: I am 299 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,020 Speaker 1: what gave me what gave me away. Yeah, 300 00:15:23,170 --> 00:15:23,460 Speaker 1: right. 301 00:15:24,050 --> 00:15:25,350 Speaker 1: Second floor. Right. 302 00:15:27,850 --> 00:15:29,070 Speaker 1: Okay. Sounds good. Thank you. 303 00:15:31,530 --> 00:15:35,010 Speaker 1: I was there to see Anthony for Llano of former deputy. 304 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,130 Speaker 1: Another repeat shooter, his shootings. They made the news. 305 00:15:42,740 --> 00:15:43,070 Speaker 1: Yeah. 306 00:15:43,630 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: Hey, 307 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,369 Speaker 1: so right by you from you did not see 308 00:15:49,950 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: you did ok, Well, 309 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,050 Speaker 1: have you know 310 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,690 Speaker 1: I like I like to think I'm an observant person. 311 00:16:01,330 --> 00:16:04,070 Speaker 1: Anti from Otto is retired now. Part of him is 312 00:16:04,070 --> 00:16:07,290 Speaker 1: still no frills former deputy. He came to the interview 313 00:16:07,290 --> 00:16:10,390 Speaker 1: and flip flops and shorts. He likes 7 11 coffee. 314 00:16:10,390 --> 00:16:10,900 Speaker 1: Best 315 00:16:11,610 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: I have spoken to for Lana before off tape. That 316 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,450 Speaker 1: time he got pretty wound up talking about his patrol days. 317 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,430 Speaker 1: Not angry but not holding back any emotion, either. He 318 00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:25,270 Speaker 1: dropped the occasional expletive. He described sheriff's leadership as being 319 00:16:25,270 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: motivated by politics. As he put it, Quote, My dick 320 00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:30,450 Speaker 1: is bigger than your deck. 321 00:16:31,340 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: This time he's restrained. Languid. 322 00:16:34,670 --> 00:16:35,850 Speaker 1: Maybe it's the microphone. 323 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,260 Speaker 1: Can you just, like, take like a five inch scoop? 324 00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:42,010 Speaker 1: Okay, 325 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: Um, 326 00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:46,330 Speaker 2: sorry, I don't talk to allowed. Sometimes 327 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: I think you're good, I think, just like just 328 00:16:50,490 --> 00:16:54,010 Speaker 1: for Lana joined the sheriff's department in 1994 the job 329 00:16:54,010 --> 00:16:58,220 Speaker 1: could be demanding. He missed birthdays, holidays, special events, Sundays 330 00:16:58,220 --> 00:16:59,150 Speaker 1: with his kids. 331 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,270 Speaker 1: And it could be gruesome. According to records, he once 332 00:17:03,270 --> 00:17:06,449 Speaker 1: saw a child whose head was severed into pieces in 333 00:17:06,450 --> 00:17:07,250 Speaker 1: a car crash 334 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,310 Speaker 1: for Lana train for patrol at Century Station. He told 335 00:17:11,310 --> 00:17:14,230 Speaker 1: me I had no idea how violent the world waas 336 00:17:14,580 --> 00:17:16,659 Speaker 1: you don't realize how evil people are 337 00:17:17,780 --> 00:17:20,420 Speaker 1: for Lana. Went to work in Compton, then the east L. 338 00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:24,460 Speaker 1: A station. Do you feel like, uh, you encountered more 339 00:17:24,460 --> 00:17:26,710 Speaker 1: guns and most many other law enforcement 340 00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:27,350 Speaker 2: officers? 341 00:17:28,910 --> 00:17:31,109 Speaker 2: Um, my perception is yes. 342 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,100 Speaker 2: Like, I can't even count how many guns that have 343 00:17:35,109 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: taken off the street. 344 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:37,490 Speaker 2: Hundreds. 345 00:17:38,510 --> 00:17:40,900 Speaker 2: There would be some individuals you'd find two or three 346 00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:42,659 Speaker 2: guns on. You know, you don't know, 347 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:45,450 Speaker 1: like in our car. 348 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,780 Speaker 2: Oh, on their person in their car? 349 00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:51,619 Speaker 1: Yeah, guns heading anywhere. 350 00:17:51,630 --> 00:17:53,350 Speaker 2: Yeah, but then the same. There's 351 00:17:54,140 --> 00:17:56,390 Speaker 2: the guys that you work with, it that find dope 352 00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:58,100 Speaker 2: all the time. You're like, how did they find dope 353 00:17:58,100 --> 00:17:59,950 Speaker 2: all the time? It just happens that way. 354 00:18:00,590 --> 00:18:03,490 Speaker 2: The guy that's always finding a stolen car, 355 00:18:04,340 --> 00:18:06,659 Speaker 2: you know, it was somebody in it. And there in pursuit. 356 00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:07,110 Speaker 2: It's like 357 00:18:07,650 --> 00:18:09,970 Speaker 2: this guy gets stolen cars, like almost all the time. 358 00:18:09,970 --> 00:18:10,369 Speaker 2: It seemed 359 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,390 Speaker 2: it just works out that way. It's, I don't know, 360 00:18:13,390 --> 00:18:13,660 Speaker 2: this 361 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,990 Speaker 2: no rhyme or reason to it just, uh it happens 362 00:18:17,609 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: the first time we talked for a lot of put 363 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: it this way. Quote. I happen to be a shit 364 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,260 Speaker 1: magnet with guns. 365 00:18:24,290 --> 00:18:27,719 Speaker 1: There's another way to look at shit magnets, that dangerous encounters. 366 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:30,940 Speaker 1: And by extension, the shootings that might result are not 367 00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:34,050 Speaker 1: so much dictated by the deputy nor by the department, 368 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,070 Speaker 1: but by the actions of the suspects. 369 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,929 Speaker 1: One department employees explained it to me as Call a 370 00:18:44,930 --> 00:18:49,180 Speaker 1: good luck. Call it bad luck. It happens that is, 371 00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:54,290 Speaker 1: should happens on since you can't always control what's around you. Well, 372 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:58,940 Speaker 1: for Lana describes these interactions as though fate had intervened. Misfortune. 373 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:02,500 Speaker 2: You don't want toe hurt anybody or kill anybody. 374 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:04,820 Speaker 2: But 375 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:06,449 Speaker 2: it's unfortunate 376 00:19:07,460 --> 00:19:09,900 Speaker 2: whoever it is that you stop or come across that 377 00:19:09,910 --> 00:19:12,450 Speaker 2: they're going to dictate how the rest of the 378 00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:14,100 Speaker 2: the stock goes 379 00:19:15,690 --> 00:19:19,270 Speaker 2: if they become violent and it ends up becoming violent. 380 00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: If they're cooperative, it's cooperative. 381 00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:24,890 Speaker 2: Uh 382 00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:25,110 Speaker 1: huh. 383 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:28,950 Speaker 1: Talk to me about, um, 384 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: the most recent, um, 385 00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:36,380 Speaker 1: shooting incident. 386 00:19:37,090 --> 00:19:39,350 Speaker 1: You're a part of what happened that day. 387 00:19:40,930 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: That night I was working overtime in East Los Angeles, 388 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,470 Speaker 2: and there was, ah, call of a female screaming. 389 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,430 Speaker 1: Solano and his partner responded. According to D A records, 390 00:19:52,540 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: a witness told them he had seen a young Latino 391 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,450 Speaker 1: man riding a skateboard with a gun. 392 00:19:58,050 --> 00:20:00,770 Speaker 1: Vermont ominous partner found a man that fit the description 393 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,980 Speaker 1: for Alana noticed a dark object in his hand, which 394 00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:06,710 Speaker 1: he later realized was a cell phone. He ordered the 395 00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: suspect to stop drop what was in his hands, according 396 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: to the D A record. The suspect ignored the commands 397 00:20:12,570 --> 00:20:16,570 Speaker 1: and continued to approach. A struggle ensued for Llano called 398 00:20:16,570 --> 00:20:18,450 Speaker 1: it a stand up wrestling match. 399 00:20:19,290 --> 00:20:21,859 Speaker 2: I was holding one wrist and my partner was holding 400 00:20:21,859 --> 00:20:23,940 Speaker 2: the other risk trying toe get him on the ground 401 00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: and had cuff him. 402 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:26,990 Speaker 2: And as his hands 403 00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 2: brushed over his pocket, you could feel the silhouette of 404 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,410 Speaker 2: a gun inside of his pocket. 405 00:20:32,980 --> 00:20:34,490 Speaker 2: And he was able to get in his pocket. And 406 00:20:34,490 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: that's when he produced the handgun. He pulled it out 407 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:37,950 Speaker 2: of his pocket. 408 00:20:38,619 --> 00:20:40,780 Speaker 1: Romano had his own weapon raised. 409 00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:42,859 Speaker 2: Why is he doing this? Why is he not saying 410 00:20:42,859 --> 00:20:43,649 Speaker 2: anything to us? 411 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,180 Speaker 2: Why is he forcing me? You know, into the situation. 412 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,870 Speaker 1: According to D, A records for Leno shot the suspect 413 00:20:50,869 --> 00:20:53,820 Speaker 1: ran away. The partner deputy said the suspect reached towards 414 00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: his pocket and he shot to the man, died 415 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,990 Speaker 1: for Lana, told me he was devastated. He thought faq 416 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:06,700 Speaker 1: why me? 417 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,170 Speaker 1: Why me again? 418 00:21:08,580 --> 00:21:10,350 Speaker 2: he dictated what what occurred. 419 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,979 Speaker 2: So now I have to live with it. 420 00:21:14,910 --> 00:21:17,980 Speaker 1: Questions about the shooting were to be expected. This was 421 00:21:17,980 --> 00:21:21,510 Speaker 1: not for Llanos first shooting. This was his seventh. 422 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,390 Speaker 1: But this time for Leno said, was different 423 00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:27,909 Speaker 2: by far. Is way different is very political. 424 00:21:28,940 --> 00:21:31,379 Speaker 1: A man named Michael Janak. Oh, got involved. It was 425 00:21:31,380 --> 00:21:35,580 Speaker 1: 2013 at the time. Janaka headed the Office of Independent Review. 426 00:21:36,020 --> 00:21:39,660 Speaker 1: It was his job to scrutinize Los Angeles County Deputy activity, 427 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,550 Speaker 1: the department's practices. 428 00:21:42,780 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: So what's your your attention to this one particular deputy 429 00:21:46,010 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: and his record? 430 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,379 Speaker 2: Ah, well, 431 00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 2: clearly, the number of shootings that the deputy had been 432 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:53,590 Speaker 2: involved in 433 00:21:54,140 --> 00:21:54,790 Speaker 2: um 434 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 2: caused him to be an outlier, as we learned. Um, 435 00:21:59,730 --> 00:22:03,730 Speaker 2: most officers who are out on patrol do not get 436 00:22:03,730 --> 00:22:08,990 Speaker 2: in in any officer involved shootings during their careers, Um, 437 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: or one at most. 438 00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:14,470 Speaker 1: So does it raise red flags when a deputy has 439 00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:18,730 Speaker 1: 23 more than three officer involved shootings. It 440 00:22:18,730 --> 00:22:20,990 Speaker 2: raises all kinds of flags. Um, 441 00:22:21,619 --> 00:22:26,260 Speaker 2: even if in isolation, each shooting is quote justified under 442 00:22:26,260 --> 00:22:30,770 Speaker 2: the law. Um, it does call into question decision making 443 00:22:30,770 --> 00:22:31,090 Speaker 2: by the 444 00:22:31,090 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: deputy 445 00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:35,550 Speaker 1: for Janak. Oh, it was not always about chance, not 446 00:22:35,550 --> 00:22:38,729 Speaker 1: always about fate. It was about choices, the choices of 447 00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:41,450 Speaker 1: the deputy, the choices of the department, 448 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: Janaka found. The department returned for Lana to the field 449 00:22:44,570 --> 00:22:48,030 Speaker 1: after his first and second and his third and fourth 450 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,910 Speaker 1: and his fifth and six shootings. 451 00:22:50,609 --> 00:22:53,740 Speaker 1: This after the department had found issues with his six shooting, 452 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,430 Speaker 1: according to court records. 453 00:22:56,180 --> 00:22:59,090 Speaker 1: The six shooting was in 2011 for Lana was chasing 454 00:22:59,090 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: a suspected stolen vehicle and fired several times at the driver, 455 00:23:03,250 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: according to district attorney records for Lana said the driver 456 00:23:06,619 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: had a handgun. 457 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,179 Speaker 1: Investigators did not find a gun 458 00:23:10,820 --> 00:23:13,050 Speaker 1: for. Llano declined to speak with me about this incident, 459 00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:15,910 Speaker 1: citing pending litigation brought by the driver, 460 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: according to a lawsuit. Records for Llano fired out the 461 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,209 Speaker 1: car window across his partner's body, records said. He was 462 00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: disciplined for that, 463 00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:27,629 Speaker 1: for Llano was assigned desk duty, according to a civil 464 00:23:27,630 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: complaint he later filed. 465 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,210 Speaker 1: He didn't stay there, according to Janak. Oh, and for Llano, 466 00:23:33,450 --> 00:23:36,810 Speaker 1: for Llano petitioned higher ups asked to go back out 467 00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: on duty. 468 00:23:38,050 --> 00:23:40,130 Speaker 1: It had been more than two years since his last 469 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: shooting for Llano got his wish. 470 00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:45,929 Speaker 1: Lana told me within a couple weeks of returning to 471 00:23:45,930 --> 00:23:48,570 Speaker 1: the field, he was in his seventh shooting. 472 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,060 Speaker 1: Do you think that it was So was it that 473 00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:56,699 Speaker 1: you know the leaders of the department? Um, basically, you know, 474 00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:58,590 Speaker 1: they didn't have a system and process, so they weren't 475 00:23:58,590 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: aware of of multiple shootings. Or do you think that 476 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,050 Speaker 1: there were reluctant to pull a deputy from 477 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:06,660 Speaker 1: from the field? 478 00:24:08,020 --> 00:24:11,810 Speaker 2: There is always going to be a reluctance to move 479 00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 2: a deputy from a patrol assignment, and it has to 480 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,050 Speaker 2: be done thoughtfully. And it has to be. You know, 481 00:24:18,050 --> 00:24:20,909 Speaker 2: it has to be done based on evidence and concern 482 00:24:20,910 --> 00:24:24,970 Speaker 2: and risk management issues, potential liability. It is not a 483 00:24:24,970 --> 00:24:26,780 Speaker 2: decision that should be lightly made. 484 00:24:27,710 --> 00:24:30,709 Speaker 1: The pieces together can tell a story. Janaka says it 485 00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:34,139 Speaker 1: could show the officer may be more sensitive to potential danger. 486 00:24:34,540 --> 00:24:37,630 Speaker 1: They may be perceiving threat when there's not one a 487 00:24:37,630 --> 00:24:41,409 Speaker 1: jumpy deputy or they could be too aggressive. Janak Oh, 488 00:24:41,410 --> 00:24:44,410 Speaker 1: said an officer. Maybe putting themselves in harm's way, 489 00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 2: they get into deep. They do not perform consistent with 490 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: principles of officer safety, and then they are find themselves 491 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 2: in a situation or situations where they then feel the 492 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: need toe use deadly force to shoot themselves out of 493 00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:58,590 Speaker 2: harm's way. 494 00:24:59,030 --> 00:25:01,430 Speaker 1: It can be the difference between taking cover and closing 495 00:25:01,430 --> 00:25:04,409 Speaker 1: in keeping options open or limiting them 496 00:25:05,230 --> 00:25:09,030 Speaker 1: and their consequences for failing to recognize or even consider 497 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,909 Speaker 1: that there may be patterns. 498 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,260 Speaker 2: Well, the concern with returning a deputy to the field 499 00:25:15,260 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: who's not ready is obviously 500 00:25:19,090 --> 00:25:21,830 Speaker 2: it may increase the chance that there could be another 501 00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:25,050 Speaker 2: deadly force incident. Obviously, that's the ultimate concern. 502 00:25:27,910 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: More shootings can mean more lawsuits and MAWR $1,000,000 settlements. 503 00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:36,690 Speaker 1: So cutting back that's risk management life and death kind. 504 00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:39,810 Speaker 1: So when Janaka notice for Llano, he made a lot 505 00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: of hay. He wrote a letter to county officials. That's 506 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: when for Llano Story hit the news. 507 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,300 Speaker 2: Seven shootings, all linked toe. One Los Angeles County sheriff's 508 00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:52,109 Speaker 2: deputy and the deputy had been assigned to desk duty 509 00:25:52,109 --> 00:25:55,050 Speaker 2: in East L. A. After shooting number six in 2011. 510 00:25:56,510 --> 00:25:56,950 Speaker 2: Remove 511 00:25:57,980 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: emotions ran high when the oh leave, a family came 512 00:26:00,369 --> 00:26:03,139 Speaker 1: face to face with sheriff's deputies in the East l. A. 513 00:26:03,140 --> 00:26:04,310 Speaker 1: Sheriff's station tonight. 514 00:26:05,340 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: The 515 00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:10,710 Speaker 1: Sheriff's department was under pressure around this time. 2013 the 516 00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:13,310 Speaker 1: department was still under heat for the jail scandal a 517 00:26:13,310 --> 00:26:17,580 Speaker 1: couple years before the allegations of deputies using excessive force 518 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,570 Speaker 1: and the department's responsibility to correct behaviour. Falling short. 519 00:26:22,210 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: The sheriff at the time, Lee Baca, was under pressure 520 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: to step down 521 00:26:26,859 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: for Llano describes it like a storm and hit. He 522 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,050 Speaker 1: found himself pulled into the eye of it. 523 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: They 524 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: put me inside. 525 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:36,910 Speaker 2: They wouldn't allow me 526 00:26:37,609 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: to wear uniform. Being a black and white around a 527 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,980 Speaker 2: black and white. They wanted me to goto work, custody 528 00:26:42,980 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: or courts, 529 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,740 Speaker 2: which I didn't want to work either one 530 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,290 Speaker 2: after the shooting. 531 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:51,250 Speaker 2: So So then what were 532 00:26:51,250 --> 00:26:54,209 Speaker 1: you Um what kind of tasks were you assigned right 533 00:26:54,890 --> 00:26:57,260 Speaker 1: in this new job they were trying to place you 534 00:27:00,340 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: just I can get a sense of like, you 535 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,609 Speaker 2: know, well, at first when they benched me, 536 00:27:07,020 --> 00:27:08,970 Speaker 2: I was still accomplish Borough. And like I said, I 537 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:10,670 Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to wear uniforms. So 538 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: I stayed in the office all day. 539 00:27:13,740 --> 00:27:14,700 Speaker 2: I had to keep busy. 540 00:27:15,290 --> 00:27:18,659 Speaker 2: I was told, do paperwork and paperwork only takes so 541 00:27:18,660 --> 00:27:19,450 Speaker 2: long to do. 542 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: And then I was told like Well, you know, it 543 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,850 Speaker 2: was a small building there in Lakewood 544 00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:28,450 Speaker 2: County building and clean up outside or 545 00:27:29,410 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: sweeper mop, but cut the hallways or clean the bathrooms 546 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: or something. 547 00:27:34,150 --> 00:27:35,450 Speaker 2: All this menial work, 548 00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,030 Speaker 2: which is, is fine and dandy. If your home was 549 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,820 Speaker 2: a little degrading amongst your peers 550 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:44,449 Speaker 2: when you work so hard, we've had so much training 551 00:27:49,310 --> 00:27:51,179 Speaker 1: records show for Alana was still being paid. Is the 552 00:27:51,180 --> 00:27:54,050 Speaker 1: deputy around $100,000 per year? 553 00:27:54,940 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: The D A. Reviewed the shooting said it was within 554 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,620 Speaker 1: the law. Same is the six. Before the department still 555 00:28:00,619 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: had to complete its internal affairs review 556 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: for Llano, Felt persecuted fell. The department headed out for him, 557 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:08,850 Speaker 1: wanted to fire him. 558 00:28:09,650 --> 00:28:12,750 Speaker 1: It struck me Many people. I have talked to question 559 00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:16,430 Speaker 1: the level of scrutiny given to officer shootings, the practice 560 00:28:16,430 --> 00:28:19,050 Speaker 1: of law enforcement investigating their own. 561 00:28:19,570 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: These officers felt intensely scrutinized, saw a department with the 562 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,750 Speaker 1: power to put moments of their lives under a microscope, 563 00:28:27,020 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: make decisions that could alter their future. 564 00:28:30,940 --> 00:28:34,050 Speaker 1: And the process this time didn't sit well with for Llano. 565 00:28:34,780 --> 00:28:38,030 Speaker 1: According to for Llano into other sources, there were murmurings 566 00:28:38,030 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: inside the department murmurings that the gun had been planted 567 00:28:41,980 --> 00:28:43,290 Speaker 1: to justify the shooting. 568 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,930 Speaker 1: The deputies deny this d A record, said the gun 569 00:28:46,940 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: was found at the scene, 570 00:28:49,370 --> 00:28:51,660 Speaker 1: these sources as not to be named because they still 571 00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: work for the department and they fear retaliation. 572 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: Falana said in court papers that he had to submit 573 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,950 Speaker 1: to a DNA test. Investigators got a swab from the 574 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,540 Speaker 1: inside of his mouth, same as they do for those 575 00:29:03,540 --> 00:29:07,260 Speaker 1: suspected of a crime, de records show. The test did 576 00:29:07,260 --> 00:29:10,850 Speaker 1: not match either deputies DNA to the material on the gun. 577 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,940 Speaker 1: Other questions were raised. The family of the man for 578 00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: Mono and his partner fatally shot Carlos Oliva. Sola claimed 579 00:29:19,530 --> 00:29:23,370 Speaker 1: the shooting was unjustified. The family filed a civil rights lawsuit, 580 00:29:23,670 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: a claim that included a slew of problems with the shooting. 581 00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:29,660 Speaker 1: According to the lawsuit, the young man was beaten to 582 00:29:29,660 --> 00:29:32,350 Speaker 1: the ground prior to being shot and at a point 583 00:29:32,350 --> 00:29:34,050 Speaker 1: during the shooting was unarmed 584 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,050 Speaker 1: for Lana told me the suspect had dropped the gun 585 00:29:37,050 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: at some point during the encounter, but deputies didn't realize 586 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,370 Speaker 1: that until after, 587 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,890 Speaker 1: according to court records. Two years after Fillon owes last shooting, 588 00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:49,050 Speaker 1: the department found he had used improper tactics. 589 00:29:52,340 --> 00:29:54,530 Speaker 1: When I asked for a lot of about this, he 590 00:29:54,530 --> 00:29:57,950 Speaker 1: told me his actions were within his training and experience 591 00:29:58,190 --> 00:30:01,469 Speaker 1: that the finding was a pretext. According to court records, 592 00:30:01,510 --> 00:30:04,020 Speaker 1: the department decided to fire him. 593 00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:07,300 Speaker 1: The department settled the lawsuit with the family of the 594 00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:12,420 Speaker 1: skateboarder killed in 2015 according to the family's attorney, Dale Ghalib. Oh, 595 00:30:12,460 --> 00:30:14,900 Speaker 1: he told me the department's public position on the shooting 596 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,270 Speaker 1: hadn't changed. Quote. They came up with a story that 597 00:30:18,270 --> 00:30:20,530 Speaker 1: the kid had a gun. They were sticking to it. 598 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: This attorney, he takes on a lot of these cases. 599 00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: Filippo is a big name for police shootings in California. 600 00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: He's skeptical of departments doing their own investigations into shootings, 601 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,420 Speaker 1: and he's skeptical of the findings. He told me they 602 00:30:34,420 --> 00:30:37,550 Speaker 1: do an investigation to make it look like they're investigating, 603 00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: he said. This case was memorable because after years of fighting, 604 00:30:41,250 --> 00:30:45,750 Speaker 1: the department's lawyers abruptly decided to settle. A call came in. 605 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: They wanted it settled. That week, 606 00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:51,340 Speaker 1: he said, that speed was almost unheard off. 607 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: The final settlement 2.5 $1,000,000 Globo told me, quote, something 608 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,290 Speaker 1: was up with that case. 609 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,340 Speaker 1: If the top brass wanted for Leno out, as he says, 610 00:31:02,590 --> 00:31:06,020 Speaker 1: they eventually got their wish. He left the department. In 611 00:31:06,020 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: lieu of being fired, he medically retired. He got to 612 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: keep his pension. According to Transparent California, which is based 613 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,950 Speaker 1: on public records. He's collected about $60,000 a year after retiring, 614 00:31:21,740 --> 00:31:25,490 Speaker 1: reflecting back for Lan told me, Shootings are awful. You 615 00:31:25,490 --> 00:31:29,220 Speaker 1: already feel bad, he said, and we get punished. 616 00:31:29,940 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: The Sheriff's department declined to comment about for Llano. In 617 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: these incidents, they said, they're prohibited by law from disclosing 618 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,810 Speaker 1: information in an officer's personnel file information that might include 619 00:31:40,810 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: investigations and discipline. 620 00:31:43,540 --> 00:31:45,790 Speaker 1: Sheriff's officials did agree to talk to me about how 621 00:31:45,790 --> 00:31:48,450 Speaker 1: they're handling officers with multiple shootings. 622 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,350 Speaker 1: So I asked them How many shootings are too many? 623 00:31:53,140 --> 00:31:53,300 Speaker 2: Yeah. 624 00:32:00,940 --> 00:32:05,580 Speaker 2: Uh, well, generally, if you hit your third deputy involved 625 00:32:05,580 --> 00:32:09,290 Speaker 2: Shooting triggers an automatic shooting review analysis. 626 00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: This is Anthony Lubbers. He's the undersheriff, number two in command, 627 00:32:13,790 --> 00:32:17,020 Speaker 1: he said. Yeah, the department is tracking. Repeat shooters now 628 00:32:17,030 --> 00:32:21,180 Speaker 1: have been examining their cases. The accumulation of incidents they 629 00:32:21,180 --> 00:32:22,850 Speaker 1: started in 2015 630 00:32:23,490 --> 00:32:26,630 Speaker 2: eso we looked at was the environment they're working in, 631 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,410 Speaker 2: what commonalities of these shootings. They went to some training 632 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: that that have any actor in the second shooting or not, 633 00:32:33,610 --> 00:32:37,980 Speaker 2: and then we'll make a recommendation as to what we 634 00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:40,940 Speaker 2: take this best for the employees and the community. You know, 635 00:32:40,940 --> 00:32:41,660 Speaker 2: we don't want toe 636 00:32:42,190 --> 00:32:45,270 Speaker 2: have, ah, employees working in on in the community to 637 00:32:45,270 --> 00:32:48,340 Speaker 2: where the committee feels unsafe around this individual. So that's 638 00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:50,220 Speaker 2: why we take a strong look at it. We look 639 00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:54,170 Speaker 2: at the risk and viability that we expose the community to, 640 00:32:54,170 --> 00:32:55,950 Speaker 2: as well as our own members. 641 00:32:56,580 --> 00:32:58,770 Speaker 1: And the birds said it doesn't always mean having to 642 00:32:58,770 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: take a deputy out of the field. Sometimes what's needed 643 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,980 Speaker 1: is more training or a shift change 644 00:33:04,530 --> 00:33:08,030 Speaker 2: worked all shifts, I could tell you Working day shift. 645 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,700 Speaker 2: You know your activity is dramatically different. You're taking more reports. 646 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: You're handling different types of calls. You may be hailing 647 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,310 Speaker 2: a call of a truancy. 648 00:33:16,890 --> 00:33:20,460 Speaker 2: Ah, child nickel act on issue at a school on 649 00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:23,530 Speaker 2: day shift a burger. Reports of people wake up in 650 00:33:23,530 --> 00:33:26,590 Speaker 2: the morning, find a car was burglarized on then, as 651 00:33:26,590 --> 00:33:27,890 Speaker 2: you get later in the day 652 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,050 Speaker 2: in the P M shift, and then more and more 653 00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:34,250 Speaker 2: people are out and about, and the criminal element may 654 00:33:34,250 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: be drinking more and now starting to get out and 655 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,610 Speaker 2: do their thing. You know, the drug dealers come out now, 656 00:33:39,620 --> 00:33:42,380 Speaker 2: start coming out in the evening and then all the 657 00:33:42,380 --> 00:33:43,950 Speaker 2: way in the early morning shift. I would spend a 658 00:33:43,950 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 2: lot of time on early morning, which is your midnight shift. 659 00:33:47,340 --> 00:33:49,900 Speaker 2: And that's where you found your shootings in your stabbings, 660 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,250 Speaker 2: in your robberies, going on in the night time. So 661 00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:55,630 Speaker 2: those encounters in those type of activities were much greater 662 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: working those night time shift, 663 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: according to D A records, both Coburg and for Llanos. 664 00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:08,739 Speaker 1: Most recent shootings were at night Coburg sometime after 10 p.m. 665 00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:10,750 Speaker 1: for llanos after 1 a.m. 666 00:34:11,940 --> 00:34:14,870 Speaker 1: Not everyone thinks the sheriff's department is changing for the better. 667 00:34:15,310 --> 00:34:18,170 Speaker 1: The officers I talked to say the potential internal affairs 668 00:34:18,170 --> 00:34:21,730 Speaker 1: cases or being pulled from the field is creating a 669 00:34:21,730 --> 00:34:25,220 Speaker 1: chilling effect that deputies are reluctant to go into that 670 00:34:25,219 --> 00:34:28,589 Speaker 1: alley to run after the suspected bad guy for fear 671 00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:31,750 Speaker 1: of punishment for what they see as good and necessary. 672 00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:34,110 Speaker 1: Police work a za messy as it can get. 673 00:34:41,310 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: It's difficult to check the chilling effect claim. Arrests have 674 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,580 Speaker 1: been going down for years at the L. A County 675 00:34:46,580 --> 00:34:47,549 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department, 676 00:34:48,130 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: and they say the new climate that rolled in with 677 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,819 Speaker 1: the new sheriff Jim McDonnell. So I went down to 678 00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:56,350 Speaker 1: the Hall of Justice toe. Ask the sheriff about it 679 00:35:00,570 --> 00:35:01,050 Speaker 1: by. 680 00:35:03,150 --> 00:35:04,350 Speaker 1: I have an appointment here. 681 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: You 682 00:35:06,410 --> 00:35:08,779 Speaker 1: know, I am a fish. An appointment with the sheriff. 683 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,430 Speaker 1: McDonald's spent decades in law enforcement at the LAPD. Then 684 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,299 Speaker 1: he went on to be the chief of Long Beach 685 00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: PD Onley toe watch. As the Los Angeles County Sheriff's 686 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,650 Speaker 1: Department jail scandal called into question the integrity of the 687 00:35:22,650 --> 00:35:23,750 Speaker 1: officer's badge, 688 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,090 Speaker 1: MacDonald had a front row seat to what had gone 689 00:35:27,090 --> 00:35:30,870 Speaker 1: wrong at the sheriff's department. He worked alongside Miriam Krinsky, 690 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: sat on the Citizens Commission on Jail Violence CC JV 691 00:35:34,969 --> 00:35:38,190 Speaker 1: heard all about reports found shoved into drawers, 692 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,230 Speaker 1: and MacDonald thought he could do better. So he ran 693 00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:45,149 Speaker 1: to be the next sheriff of Los Angeles County. You 694 00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 2: know, the term I used at the time was to 695 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 2: restore the luster to the badge. Ah, I believe that now, 696 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,980 Speaker 2: in little over three years that we have been successful 697 00:35:53,980 --> 00:35:58,050 Speaker 2: in in, uh, going a long way toward doing that. Ah, 698 00:35:58,530 --> 00:35:59,070 Speaker 2: you know, people 699 00:35:59,070 --> 00:36:01,450 Speaker 1: often ask, isn't officers were being held accountable? 700 00:36:04,460 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 2: They think there were some in the organization that were 701 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 2: not being held accountable appropriately and that, um, did things 702 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: they they certainly should not have done. And I think 703 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: the indictments we saw showed the extreme on that continue. 704 00:36:19,930 --> 00:36:23,250 Speaker 2: But the vast majority of members of the organization are 705 00:36:23,250 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 2: doing a very difficult, complex and dangerous job exceptionally well 706 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:27,110 Speaker 2: every day. 707 00:36:27,790 --> 00:36:31,259 Speaker 1: Those indictments included former Sheriff Lee Baca and more than 708 00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: 20 other department employees. 709 00:36:33,930 --> 00:36:36,779 Speaker 1: I mean, not all said under his leadership officer shootings 710 00:36:36,860 --> 00:36:40,140 Speaker 1: have gone down. According to department records. In the five 711 00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:43,209 Speaker 1: years prior to 2015 McDonald's first year in office, 712 00:36:43,810 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: the L A County Sheriff's Department average 41 shootings a year. 713 00:36:47,630 --> 00:36:49,870 Speaker 1: In 2017 the number was eight. 714 00:36:50,530 --> 00:36:51,570 Speaker 1: And so we have 715 00:36:51,580 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 2: dramatically reduced shootings and continue to do so. However, we 716 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,180 Speaker 2: don't decide, um, on the number of shootings, we respond 717 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,510 Speaker 2: to radio calls to situations in the field where we're 718 00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 2: confronted with issues that sometimes require a use of force, 719 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 2: including deadly force. And that's the nature of the job. 720 00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: We've also heard 721 00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:17,740 Speaker 1: from deputies and from sheriff's personnel that, um, 722 00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:21,530 Speaker 1: you know, under your leadership, your you're benching or reassigning 723 00:37:21,530 --> 00:37:23,370 Speaker 1: deputies with multiple shootings. 724 00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:27,650 Speaker 1: If What you say is the case that shootings are 725 00:37:28,170 --> 00:37:29,460 Speaker 1: the fault of the suspects 726 00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:32,700 Speaker 2: or the circumstances. Then why pulling from the field? Well, 727 00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:35,390 Speaker 2: we look at each one individually. We don't do that generically. 728 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,070 Speaker 2: We look at the merits we look at the, uh 729 00:37:39,330 --> 00:37:42,010 Speaker 2: you know, the details of each use of force is 730 00:37:42,010 --> 00:37:45,310 Speaker 2: significant use of force. We we tear these things apart 731 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: down to a level where I think most people don't 732 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: have an appreciation for that at all. We hold our 733 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,899 Speaker 2: people accountable to a very, very high degree. 734 00:37:53,730 --> 00:37:55,969 Speaker 1: There's a lot of people that depend on McDonald to 735 00:37:55,969 --> 00:37:56,670 Speaker 1: get this right. 736 00:37:57,230 --> 00:37:59,550 Speaker 1: The people of the county that felt the department needed 737 00:37:59,550 --> 00:38:02,210 Speaker 1: to change. And his deputies 738 00:38:03,020 --> 00:38:05,410 Speaker 1: he told me he sees it as his obligation to 739 00:38:05,410 --> 00:38:09,069 Speaker 1: reduce force where possible. And I know he also needs 740 00:38:09,070 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: the buy in from the men and women who work 741 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: for him, not all of whom appreciate deputies being taken 742 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: out of the field. 743 00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,990 Speaker 1: You know, if they get reassigned, its assignments where they're 744 00:38:18,989 --> 00:38:23,100 Speaker 1: doing data entry or they're mopping or washing buses, but 745 00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: they're still making the salary is a deputy. So I 746 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:26,900 Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying is 747 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 2: that 748 00:38:28,660 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 2: way. Don't have people doing maintenance duties, or are the 749 00:38:32,650 --> 00:38:35,029 Speaker 2: washing buses of those kind of things that were taken 750 00:38:35,030 --> 00:38:37,130 Speaker 2: on the field for a use of force? We do. 751 00:38:37,130 --> 00:38:39,790 Speaker 2: We take very seriously the value of each employee within 752 00:38:39,790 --> 00:38:42,750 Speaker 2: the organization. We don't give them a demeaning job or 753 00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:45,750 Speaker 2: a job that's not within the parameters of what a 754 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:46,740 Speaker 2: deputy sheriff should be 755 00:38:46,739 --> 00:38:47,069 Speaker 1: doing. 756 00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:50,100 Speaker 1: You know, when I was reporting this story, I came 757 00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:51,980 Speaker 1: off this turn. I came across this term and I 758 00:38:51,980 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: heard from several Sheriff's Department of Blaze. And the term 759 00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:00,710 Speaker 1: is shit magnets, um, of your that Yeah. McDonald. Grand amused. 760 00:39:01,420 --> 00:39:03,740 Speaker 1: How are you separating? Sort of the 761 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,940 Speaker 1: troublemakers from, like, you know, the hard working 762 00:39:09,170 --> 00:39:09,300 Speaker 1: Well, 763 00:39:09,300 --> 00:39:12,190 Speaker 2: that's what the investigations for we, as I mentioned, we 764 00:39:12,190 --> 00:39:14,500 Speaker 2: tear them down. We look at him from every angle. 765 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,610 Speaker 2: We try and get to know everything we can about 766 00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:22,750 Speaker 2: the individual, about the circumstances, about the way the use 767 00:39:22,750 --> 00:39:24,530 Speaker 2: of force and the scenario played out. 768 00:39:25,980 --> 00:39:26,540 Speaker 2: So it kind of 769 00:39:26,540 --> 00:39:28,570 Speaker 1: sounds like what you're saying is, is that in some 770 00:39:28,570 --> 00:39:32,300 Speaker 1: ways it is the circumstances of what the deputy encountered 771 00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: in the field, but that there's also some responsibility from 772 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: the sheriff's department. Do as you say, mitigate 773 00:39:39,219 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: risk or potential the potential for more shootings where possible? 774 00:39:43,730 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely Both our troops 775 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:45,969 Speaker 2: were both are true, 776 00:39:45,969 --> 00:39:49,100 Speaker 1: absolutely, and the department seems to be tracking deputies with 777 00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:52,590 Speaker 1: repeat shootings. There's a list. The list includes the deputies, 778 00:39:52,590 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: most recent shooting and whether they had been in a 779 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,350 Speaker 1: previous shooting and if so, how many? 780 00:39:58,020 --> 00:40:00,970 Speaker 1: My colleague data reporter Erin Mendelson found it on a 781 00:40:00,969 --> 00:40:01,730 Speaker 1: county website. 782 00:40:02,310 --> 00:40:05,350 Speaker 1: The thing is, the list is anonymous. You don't get 783 00:40:05,350 --> 00:40:06,430 Speaker 1: the officer's name. 784 00:40:07,310 --> 00:40:10,620 Speaker 1: Erin found the names anyway, cross referencing the shooting dates 785 00:40:10,630 --> 00:40:13,819 Speaker 1: with district attorney records. It was a big undertaking, 786 00:40:14,610 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 1: so we focused on deputies who got into shootings after 787 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,090 Speaker 1: 2010 anytime they hit someone or shot and missed, 788 00:40:22,010 --> 00:40:25,280 Speaker 1: we found more than 30 Los Angeles County sheriff's officers 789 00:40:25,290 --> 00:40:29,390 Speaker 1: who shot at least three times its officers like Deputy Michael, 790 00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:32,580 Speaker 1: maybe who shot a three people, one of them reported 791 00:40:32,580 --> 00:40:36,779 Speaker 1: as unarmed, and deputy Rodolfo Santana, who had five shootings 792 00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 1: at least twice, striking unarmed suspects. 793 00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:42,250 Speaker 1: Deputy Coburg, who you met is on there, so it's 794 00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:45,180 Speaker 1: for Llano and deputy Gonzalo Inzunza. 795 00:40:46,610 --> 00:40:49,260 Speaker 1: We asked the department how many had been benched. They 796 00:40:49,260 --> 00:40:50,110 Speaker 1: didn't tell us, 797 00:40:50,910 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: and we found this. One group of officers, the so 798 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,860 Speaker 1: called outliers, were responsible for an outsize share of shootings 799 00:40:57,860 --> 00:40:58,850 Speaker 1: and L a county. 800 00:40:59,410 --> 00:41:02,100 Speaker 1: Over the course of their careers, these officers use deadly 801 00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:05,379 Speaker 1: force at least 136 times. 802 00:41:16,110 --> 00:41:19,140 Speaker 1: Even when a fatal shooting is found to be justified. 803 00:41:19,230 --> 00:41:22,930 Speaker 1: The family, the community must still grapple with the loss 804 00:41:22,940 --> 00:41:23,930 Speaker 1: of life 805 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: anti for, Lana says That's true for deputies to. 806 00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: On one hand, he didn't like being benched. You filed 807 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,430 Speaker 1: a lawsuit claiming the department was discriminating against him. According 808 00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: to court records. Falana said supervisors told him he was 809 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,540 Speaker 1: too old for patrol. He was 50. 810 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,630 Speaker 1: The department denied wrongdoing. The case settled for about $40,000. 811 00:41:46,210 --> 00:41:49,370 Speaker 1: On the other hand, for Lana also says the shootings 812 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:50,730 Speaker 1: have affected him. 813 00:41:51,410 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: He filed several worker's comp claims when he was at 814 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,620 Speaker 1: the sheriff's department, according to records for Lana was experiencing 815 00:41:57,630 --> 00:42:00,700 Speaker 1: extreme feelings. He didn't think he could go back to 816 00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:04,379 Speaker 1: law enforcement. That was too emotional, that after years as 817 00:42:04,380 --> 00:42:08,350 Speaker 1: a deputy, he had PTSD from the shootings. 818 00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:10,830 Speaker 1: He didn't want to talk to me about this much 819 00:42:11,060 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: except to say 820 00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:15,569 Speaker 2: you go see a psychologist for the shooting, talk to 821 00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:16,710 Speaker 2: them for about an hour. 822 00:42:17,630 --> 00:42:20,509 Speaker 2: That's no another area that the department fails in, Uh, 823 00:42:20,900 --> 00:42:22,630 Speaker 2: you know, just going to talk to someone for an 824 00:42:22,630 --> 00:42:23,610 Speaker 2: hour after 825 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 2: having to go through, Ah, deadly situation like that, you know, 826 00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:28,230 Speaker 2: And 827 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,810 Speaker 2: very, very unfortunate to take someone's life. 828 00:42:32,340 --> 00:42:33,310 Speaker 2: And even when you 829 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,219 Speaker 2: they're the person does leave if you still go to that, 830 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,660 Speaker 2: but you're still having to deal with that in your head. 831 00:42:38,780 --> 00:42:39,810 Speaker 2: In your emotions, 832 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,110 Speaker 2: it's not something that your every 833 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,140 Speaker 2: a person has to go through. 834 00:42:45,739 --> 00:42:47,220 Speaker 2: They should put a little more into it. 835 00:42:48,430 --> 00:42:49,660 Speaker 1: Do you ever use guns anymore? 836 00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:50,750 Speaker 1: No, 837 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,180 Speaker 1: not even just like a shooting range. 838 00:42:56,270 --> 00:42:57,009 Speaker 1: No desire 839 00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:03,029 Speaker 1: is that because of the shootings 840 00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:03,240 Speaker 2: or 841 00:43:03,770 --> 00:43:05,420 Speaker 2: because you're not interested? 842 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,219 Speaker 2: Uh, better. Both never really 843 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,550 Speaker 2: been into guns. And 844 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,090 Speaker 2: in the sound and the smell, 845 00:43:14,670 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 2: everything brings back memories. 846 00:43:25,770 --> 00:43:29,250 Speaker 1: The year for Lana left the department 2015. It was 847 00:43:29,250 --> 00:43:31,500 Speaker 1: tough for him. He was in a road rage incident, 848 00:43:31,510 --> 00:43:34,290 Speaker 1: according to D A records. A man driving his son 849 00:43:34,290 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: to school called 911 saying that for Llano had pointed 850 00:43:37,530 --> 00:43:38,370 Speaker 1: a gun at him. 851 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 1: Falana said no, that it was the other driver who 852 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:42,610 Speaker 1: pointed a gun at him. 853 00:43:43,340 --> 00:43:45,310 Speaker 1: The d A. Decided not to prosecute. 854 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,110 Speaker 1: Two months later, court records show, for Alana was convicted 855 00:43:49,110 --> 00:43:52,470 Speaker 1: for driving under the influence and Riverside County. He declined 856 00:43:52,469 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: to comment about this. I ask for Llano. Do you 857 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,919 Speaker 1: think he was unlucky that he had had seven shootings? 858 00:44:00,450 --> 00:44:03,740 Speaker 2: I was, I don't know. I'd say lucky, but 859 00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:05,239 Speaker 2: unfortunate. 860 00:44:05,890 --> 00:44:06,799 Speaker 2: It's 861 00:44:07,590 --> 00:44:08,989 Speaker 2: still with me today. 862 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 2: Nightmares I cry about it 863 00:44:13,150 --> 00:44:15,910 Speaker 2: messes with me emotionally. Sometimes I don't want to talk 864 00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 2: to people or be around people. 865 00:44:19,630 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 2: It's ruined relationships. Yeah, 866 00:44:23,489 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 2: so 867 00:44:25,090 --> 00:44:26,450 Speaker 2: yeah. So 868 00:44:27,790 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 2: if it's like this way now, pretty sure it's gonna 869 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,800 Speaker 2: be like this the rest of my life, you know, 870 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 2: Till I could 871 00:44:34,650 --> 00:44:36,370 Speaker 2: figure a way. Teoh deal with it. 872 00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:41,340 Speaker 1: How does how does it, like still manifest itself in 873 00:44:41,340 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: your life now, like with 874 00:44:43,989 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: what are you thinking? Or how does it come up 875 00:44:46,210 --> 00:44:46,690 Speaker 2: our 876 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 2: sights or smells or, you know, something like said site, 877 00:44:51,810 --> 00:44:53,870 Speaker 2: you know, vehicle. I'll see your 878 00:44:54,830 --> 00:44:58,209 Speaker 2: you sound all hear loud noises, you know, 879 00:44:58,780 --> 00:45:00,110 Speaker 2: startle very easily. 880 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:01,130 Speaker 2: Kind of 881 00:45:01,770 --> 00:45:03,540 Speaker 2: takes you back to a situation 882 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,270 Speaker 2: whether it be a shooting that you were involved in 883 00:45:07,270 --> 00:45:10,700 Speaker 2: or we're a shooting that you're at. And you know, 884 00:45:10,739 --> 00:45:14,020 Speaker 2: there's somebody laying on the ground dying. You're the last 885 00:45:14,020 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 2: person they talked to. 886 00:45:15,790 --> 00:45:17,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, You don't forget those things. 887 00:45:19,390 --> 00:45:20,569 Speaker 1: It sounds kind of haunting. 888 00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:23,300 Speaker 2: Yeah, could be hunting. 889 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:25,299 Speaker 2: I guess you could say that. But 890 00:45:26,370 --> 00:45:29,750 Speaker 2: yeah, it's definitely something that doesn't go away. 891 00:45:31,890 --> 00:45:34,569 Speaker 1: The few times I've talked to for Llano about his shootings, 892 00:45:35,030 --> 00:45:38,730 Speaker 1: he shifted between formal use of force terminology and raw 893 00:45:38,730 --> 00:45:42,870 Speaker 1: emotion like a leak slow and pungent from a tear 894 00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:43,660 Speaker 1: in the flesh. 895 00:45:45,090 --> 00:45:48,610 Speaker 1: Officers are trained to articulate use of force, but the 896 00:45:48,610 --> 00:45:51,530 Speaker 1: emotional weight of it for Lana told me I still 897 00:45:51,530 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: deal with it now. I don't sleep well. I cry. 898 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:55,910 Speaker 1: I'll shut down. 899 00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: He pulled up the collar of his great T shirt 900 00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:01,790 Speaker 1: and covered his eyes. He held it there. 901 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,990 Speaker 1: The room was silent. The conversation stopped. Then 902 00:46:06,580 --> 00:46:07,290 Speaker 1: you released it. 903 00:46:07,980 --> 00:46:09,700 Speaker 1: The neck of his shirt was wet. 904 00:46:10,580 --> 00:46:12,650 Speaker 1: He seemed embarrassed. He told me 905 00:46:13,180 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: you don't to be looked at as weak. 906 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,219 Speaker 1: Our final episode of repeat 907 00:46:25,020 --> 00:46:25,830 Speaker 1: that's next week. 908 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,540 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. To repeat from KPCC, our editor is 909 00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:08,530 Speaker 1: Evelyne Leu. Rubia additional reporting from Aaron Mendelson. Production from 910 00:47:08,530 --> 00:47:11,670 Speaker 1: James Kim. Tricia Tonko is our fact checker, and our 911 00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:16,029 Speaker 1: designer is Katie Briggs. Our music was composed and performed 912 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,050 Speaker 1: by Andrew Ben. 913 00:47:17,590 --> 00:47:21,340 Speaker 1: Thanks to the KPCC product, digital and engineering teams. Our 914 00:47:21,340 --> 00:47:25,140 Speaker 1: senior producer is our win champion Knicks. I'm Annie Gilbertson. 915 00:47:27,110 --> 00:47:29,469 Speaker 1: If you want to support more work like repeat, I 916 00:47:29,469 --> 00:47:32,270 Speaker 1: have great news for you. You can do just that. 917 00:47:32,710 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: Just go to kpcc dot org's slash repeat and make 918 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 1: a donation. If every repeat listener gave $1 per episode, 919 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,280 Speaker 1: we could find a whole other investigative Siri's. That's kpcc 920 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:46,770 Speaker 1: dot org's slash repeat. 921 00:47:47,390 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: While you're there, you can find a link to our 922 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: Facebook group. I'm there every day, engaging with listeners and 923 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,830 Speaker 1: sharing more about what I have learned while reporting the Siri's. 924 00:47:56,260 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: I'd love to answer your questions and hear your thoughts