S1: There's so many people that tell me, I wish my
S1: kids came with an instruction manual and I'm like, they do.
S1: It's called the Bible, you know? And it's not going
S1: to tell you, you know, which college your kid is
S1: going to go to or what career they should have.
S1: But there's a whole lot of wisdom in the scripture,
S1: Old and New Testament that can help us raise up
S1: our kids. And I wanted to point parents to that reality.
S2: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages Today,
S2: author and speaker doctor Kathy Cook wants to help you
S2: parent differently. She believes the outcome could be a drastic
S2: change in the culture.
S3: Let's find out if she's right. The topic on this
S3: summer Best of Broadcast is how to raise kids who
S3: embrace biblical character, not only teaching that, but letting them
S3: catch it from mom and dad. If you go to
S3: building relationships us, you'll see. Doctor Cook's latest book, parent differently.
S3: And it strikes me, Gary, that you and Carolyn tried
S3: to parent this way and you caught a lot of
S3: positive modeling from your own parents. Is that true?
S4: I did Chris, my mom and dad were both Christians.
S4: Dad was not a Christian, actually, when he married my mom.
S4: But two years later he became a real follower of Jesus.
S4: So I grew up in a Christian home and it
S4: made a tremendous difference in my life. You know, I
S4: am so grateful as I look back upon the years
S4: that I spent at home. And I remember when my
S4: mom got older, of course, she was fighting with dementia
S4: for a good long while, and I had two sisters
S4: with her around the clock, and one day she said
S4: to me, she said, you know, I'm afraid you're going
S4: to run out of money paying all these sitters. And
S4: I said, well, mama, maybe I will. But look at
S4: it this way for 18, 17 years because I was
S4: 17 when I went off to college. I said, for
S4: 17 years you did everything for me. I said, so
S4: I've only done this for about eight years. I got
S4: about how many more years to go. So yeah, this
S4: is an exciting topic today and I'm glad we're going
S4: to be discussing it.
S3: Well, if you go to Building Relationships us, you'll see
S3: our featured resource by Doctor Cook parent differently. Raise kids
S3: with biblical character that changes culture. Doctor Kathy Cook is
S3: founder and president of Celebrate Kids Incorporated, based in Fort Worth, Texas.
S3: She's written a number of bestsellers seven, I believe, of
S3: parent and child enrichment books such as Screens and Teens
S3: eight Great Smarts and Resilient Kids. We've talked about them here.
S3: She earned a Ph.D. in reading and educational psychology from
S3: Purdue University. Go Boilermakers. You can find out more about
S3: parent differently at Building Relationships US.
S4: Well doctor Cook, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S1: Thank you so much. I'm really, really happy to be here.
S4: Before we jump into today's topic, can you tell our
S4: listeners more about yourself and why you've dedicated your life
S4: to the work you're doing with children and their parents.
S1: Yeah, I'd love to. So I'm the founder of Celebrate Kids.
S1: I live in Fort Worth, Texas, moved here to start
S1: the ministry from green Bay, Wisconsin. Grew up in the Milwaukee,
S1: Wisconsin area. Great parents. An older brother raised in church,
S1: not by Christians. My parents came to faith in in
S1: Christ very late in life, but I was a celebrated kid. Gary.
S1: Both Dave and I were celebrated. We were paid attention to.
S1: We were wanted. We knew that we were liked and loved.
S1: And so my ministry comes out of the success that
S1: I had as a child, and I want other children
S1: to have that. You know, some people have ministries that
S1: are founded on brokenness, and that's fine where they want
S1: to repair damage and they want to give people what
S1: they never had. My story is that I was celebrated,
S1: and I want other parents to do what my parents did.
S4: Yeah. That's great. Well, this latest title, Parent Differently, uh,
S4: it's about teaching biblical character. What prompted you to tackle
S4: this topic?
S1: Thanks for asking that question. You know, you and I
S1: both have this in common, Gary. I want children to
S1: fulfill the purpose that they've been given. When God chose
S1: to create them, he gave them gifts. We know that
S1: from Ephesians 210, he had a purpose and a vision
S1: for their lives. And without biblical character, children can't fulfill
S1: what they were created to do because negative character doesn't
S1: give us influence or impact. So that was one reason.
S1: I also know that so many parents are frustrated today
S1: with disobedient kids. They're yelling. They're telling. They're throwing their
S1: hands up, they're fatigued, they're tired of the tech. So
S1: it's messy. And I believe that if we pay more
S1: attention to character than obedience, we'll make more of a
S1: life change for our children. And then the third reason
S1: is the whole idea of biblical character. We, you We
S1: know there's so many people who tell me, I wish
S1: my kids came with an instruction manual. And I'm like,
S1: they do. It's called the Bible, you know? And the Bible.
S1: The Bible is super practical, you know, it doesn't. It's
S1: not going to tell you, you know, which college your
S1: kid is going to go to or what career they
S1: should have, or, you know, whether you should breastfeed or not. No,
S1: but there's a whole lot of wisdom in the scripture,
S1: Old and New Testament that can help us raise up
S1: our kids. And I wanted to point parents to that reality.
S4: Yeah, but when you talk about biblical character, what are
S4: you talking about specifically?
S5: Yeah, I.
S1: Appreciate that because you notice it's not Christlike character. You know,
S1: a lot of people talk about Christlike character. And of course,
S1: becoming like Christ is the call to the believer. Certainly
S1: that's why we follow him. But you know what children
S1: have said to me, but Doctor Kathy, Jesus is perfect.
S1: You know, I can't be like Jesus. So it's a
S1: little bit off putting, potentially, without the kind of explanation
S1: that it would take a while to, you know, elaborate.
S1: And and so the reason I went with biblical is
S1: part of that. That's one of the reasons. The other
S1: major reason, though, is I want our children. I want
S1: us and our kids to not just live as Jesus
S1: Christ lived his life, but I want us to also
S1: live according to God's ways and God's will. And there's
S1: a whole lot in the Old Testament and a whole
S1: lot in the New Testament, not specifically related to Jesus Christ,
S1: that it is about character, including other Bible heroes, including,
S1: you know, the fruit of the spirit and the one
S1: anothers of the New Testament and the Beatitudes. And you
S1: know so much wisdom in the Psalms about how it
S1: would be wise for us to live out our lives.
S1: And that's what I would love for parents to impress
S1: upon their kids.
S4: Yeah. Now, Chris mentioned the whole concept of parents modeling
S4: this kind of lifestyle for children. How important is that
S4: for the child, you know, to catch this from their
S4: parents lives?
S1: Yeah, it's so important. Right? Like, what are the adjectives
S1: that we could use? Like super important, um, integrity matters
S1: and children at a very young age are going to
S1: be able to figure children at a very young age.
S1: Will figure out if their parents talk is matching their walk,
S1: and when it doesn't, of course, they become confused and
S1: even angry. And when children are angry, they don't behave
S1: as well as you would like. So that's a real issue.
S1: What I would love to recommend parents do is talk
S1: more out loud about what they are modeling. Don't assume
S1: that just because you model kindness, patience, goodness, or generosity
S1: that your children will automatically wake up one day and
S1: become those things? It's not necessarily true. I believe that
S1: much is taught and much is caught. And when we
S1: combine the two, it's really profitable. So as an example,
S1: talk out loud about why you made the decision you made,
S1: why were you generous in that situation and your kids
S1: were there. They watched you do what you did. Why
S1: did you do it? Talk out loud? Because it's the reason.
S1: It's the why behind the what, right? It's the why
S1: behind the behavior that's going to motivate your children to
S1: be able to pick up on that because they honor
S1: you and they want to believe that you're making a
S1: wise choice, and now they're going to be more capable
S1: of doing that. I hope that makes sense.
S4: Yeah, I think it does. And the other factor is
S4: this you mentioned earlier, of course, children are perfect. Jesus
S4: was perfect. Parents aren't perfect. So what would you say
S4: to the parent who realizes they're not perfect and they
S4: fail from time to time? How do they deal with that?
S1: Yeah, well, welcome to the world. Right. Um, the, you know,
S1: the sin nature is real. And, uh, you know, parents
S1: today are overwhelmed and frustrated and tired and distracted. And
S1: there's just so much right that's going on. So first
S1: of all, don't panic when mistakes occur, when you even
S1: intentionally do something that's less than God glorifying. Like we
S1: all understand that. That's why we're here. You know, we're
S1: here to help you and what I know to be true.
S1: And I think you agree that, um, when we're not
S1: perfect and we admit that we actually gain authority. Um,
S1: our vulnerability and our transparency shows children that we can.
S1: We are still learning, and now they're not as panicked
S1: when they admit that they're struggling. They think, oh, daddy
S1: might understand if I admit that I cheated because he's
S1: admitted to me that he kind of sometimes struggles with stuff.
S1: I think it's very essential that we admit age appropriately, right? Developmentally, appropriately.
S1: What it is that's going on in our world. Yeah.
S4: And then so we're modeling the whole concept of confessing
S4: our sins, right? True, true. Yeah, yeah. Is it ever
S4: too early or too late to teach biblical character?
S1: It's not. Um, certainly the earlier the better, because then
S1: you have fewer bad habits to break. Used to coach
S1: girls fifth and sixth graders in basketball. And I loved
S1: that because they came in with very few skills, so
S1: I didn't have to break bad habits that I didn't
S1: like that another coach had instilled in them. I was
S1: able to start them off from a really naive position
S1: and teach them the way that I wanted my athletes
S1: and my my team to perform, if you will. So
S1: the same thing is true here with characters. Start young,
S1: talk about it young, demonstrate it. Young. Have them, you know,
S1: act it out when they're young. Now, if you're listening
S1: and your kids are older, you're thinking, oh, I've got
S1: to do a U-turn. Yes. And you can do that.
S1: And it's it's never too late. This is where you,
S1: you know, you say to the oldest kid, you know,
S1: you're a guinea pig, you've known your whole life, you're
S1: our guinea pig. And you know, we've learned some new things.
S1: We listen to a great radio show, we've read a
S1: great book, we've learned some new things, and we apologize
S1: for the mistakes we've made. And we're asking you to,
S1: you know, give us a fresh start and let's let's
S1: try again in this way, I think the earlier the better.
S1: The apology may be necessary. If your kids are older
S1: and you know why, I know it's never too late
S1: because my character has been influenced by even writing this book.
S1: You know. You know, Doctor Chapman, that writing is like
S1: writing a book is no joke. Because, you know, I'm
S1: confronted with, okay, if I put that in this book,
S1: you know, then hello, integrity. I'm going to have to
S1: act it out. So I, I know that it's never
S1: too late to be affected. Praise God.
S4: Absolutely. Doctor Kirk, you say there are ways to determine
S4: if a child's character is mature. What are you looking
S4: for in determining that?
S1: I'm glad you asked that, because this is important to
S1: me that parents keep teaching, you know, don't tell and yell,
S1: but teach for maturity. Teach for growth and look for that.
S1: And there's three things that I believe are most important.
S1: One would be is a child's character complete. So as
S1: you know, in the book, I list 48 character qualities.
S1: One of my books has 120 character qualities, but I
S1: listed 48 in this book and I didn't want to
S1: overwhelm people. And there's a reason that I cut back
S1: on the list. So of the 48 as an example,
S1: how many are my children able to use? So that's complete.
S1: The second factor that's super important is consistent. How consistently
S1: do my kids use the quality? Like if you notice
S1: that your child is capable of being kind, is she
S1: always kind or is she only kind to people she likes? Okay,
S1: that's inconsistent, and she's got a belief system that's getting
S1: in the way there. And then the third thing that
S1: I think is so valuable to look for is automatic.
S1: How automatically do they use the character qualities. Because isn't
S1: it wouldn't it be great if at one point we
S1: don't have to tell them to be kind? You know,
S1: wouldn't it be great if there's a day coming when
S1: we don't have to say, oh, please be patient? No.
S1: So are they able to use the quality? How complete
S1: are there, are there how complete is their character? And
S1: then how consistently do they use the qualities. And then
S1: how automatically do we are children able to use them?
S1: And if you find out that a child is automatically
S1: using a quality like Praise God and then every once
S1: in a while affirm them, don't ignore it every once
S1: in a while, affirm them. But you're not going to
S1: have to nag at them. And that's going to be
S1: such a refreshing feeling.
S4: Yeah, yeah. Would you say that some of these character
S4: qualities are more important than others?
S1: I would um, so yeah, thanks for asking that. I
S1: don't want people to think at 48, I could never
S1: do that. Uh, and yes, you can. You actually can
S1: do it. Many of the qualities you and your children
S1: are already exhibiting, I think you'll be encouraged by that.
S1: But I did come up with a baker's dozen 13,
S1: the top 13 that I think are significant, and from
S1: that there's a top 3 or 4 that I can
S1: quickly mention. The first one is gratitude. Gratitude is a
S1: parent virtue. There's evidence, both in Scripture and in research,
S1: that people who are grateful develop many other qualities compassion
S1: and patience and generosity and optimism and joy and and
S1: inner peace and more so, gratitude is significant. Also, gratitude
S1: is evidence of spiritual maturity and it also creates a
S1: spiritual maturity. So when we talk to our kids about
S1: how much we have to be grateful for, like gratitude
S1: can't just be one week a year, or one day
S1: a year. You can't just be grateful the month of
S1: December to try to get more stuff. You know, if
S1: I say thank you to grandma, maybe she'll give me
S1: more stuff. No. Gratitude should be who we are and
S1: not something that we do. So that's number one. And
S1: then joy is number two and not circumstantial happiness, but
S1: a real internal joy, of course, for the believer that
S1: is found in our relationship with Jesus Christ, so is
S1: is a child able to exhibit a dynamic, growing, life
S1: giving relationship with Jesus Christ? Are we joyful and joyful
S1: and gratitude are like, what are they, cousins or siblings?
S1: Or maybe even a married couple? Like they're so close. Mhm.
S1: Um the research and again the scripture would say that
S1: grateful people are joyful. Joyful people are grateful. I prioritize
S1: those two because of what it does to the environment,
S1: in the home and to the heart of the child.
S1: The third one is self-efficacy. And to people who have
S1: never heard that word, don't panic. It's an unusual character quality,
S1: but it's so important. Self-efficacy simply means that I believe
S1: I can be effective, not effective, meaning that I'm independent
S1: from my parents, but effective, meaning that I can do
S1: what my parents asked me to do. So when you
S1: say to your child, please empty the dishwasher or, you know,
S1: go help your sister get ready for bed, your child
S1: doesn't freak out and go, oh, I can't do that.
S1: I'm only seven. No, you've trained your seven year old
S1: how to help the three year old. And when you say, hey,
S1: would you go help Elizabeth? She's like, sure. Like, wouldn't
S1: that be great if they're just like, okay, mom, no problem.
S1: You know, they still might complain sometimes, but kids who
S1: have self efficacy believe in themselves and believe that they're
S1: capable of doing what they've been asked to do. So
S1: you have less complaining, you have less arguing in those
S1: kinds of things. And there's interesting research that suggests that
S1: these three are foundational to first time obedience. So that's
S1: why they're the top three in the book, not just
S1: because the Bible would proclaim the relevance of these three.
S1: But if you want your children to be obedient, like,
S1: I could have sold more copies of the book if
S1: I would have called it, you know, raise obedient kids.
S1: But I you know, it's not about sales, obviously, and
S1: I'm not going to do that because what what we
S1: know is that when a character is changed, the heart
S1: is changed. And now they'll be well and do well
S1: even when no one's looking. And that's what, of course,
S1: we want. So I'll leave it at that. There's more,
S1: but those are the top three that I write about.
S5: Yeah. Yeah.
S4: How are children's beliefs connected to their character choices?
S1: I love that. Um, so we teach at the ministry
S1: that beliefs cause behavior. And this isn't my rocket science. Like,
S1: this is just. This is just true. That what we
S1: believe causes us to do what we do. So beliefs
S1: are not hidden. Let me say, Doctor Chapman, that the
S1: fourth character quality, the fourth in my list of 13,
S1: is self-respect. And I'll throw that out there, because if
S1: children do not respect themselves, nothing matters. If children do
S1: not believe that they are children of worth, they don't
S1: have to be good at anything. If children don't believe
S1: that God created them with good gifts and that they
S1: have a purpose yet to be discovered, just like Esther did,
S1: if they don't believe that about themselves, then they don't
S1: have to have healthy character or biblical character, Christ like character,
S1: obedience or anything else. So that belief that I matter
S1: transforms everything. And then there's so many other examples, like
S1: if I believe my mom is mean, then I'm not
S1: going to listen to her with the heart to obey.
S1: If I believe my sister is preferred over me, I
S1: will be quickly jealous, quickly angry, quickly bitter, I will resent,
S1: I will not submit. It's going to be a mess.
S1: So beliefs are under the surface, but have to be
S1: dealt with in order for children and adults to make
S1: significant change that lasts.
S4: So how do you deal with those beliefs that that
S4: we as parents recognize are not positive beliefs, are not
S4: true beliefs, just as just the examples that you just mentioned,
S4: how does a parent deal with it?
S1: Well, if you if you're able to discover it, you know,
S1: praise God. Certainly you you look for patterns. You kids
S1: are old enough. Talk to them. You know, if you
S1: say to a kid, why did you just do that?
S1: Many of them will look at you like, I don't know,
S1: I just did it. Just like adults. I'll ask an adult,
S1: why did you just cut in line? And they look
S1: at me like, oh, did did I do that wrong?
S1: Was that wrong? Like, we're so patterned, right? And we're
S1: so selfish and arrogant at times. I think those are
S1: huge issues. Um, so I would observe for patterns because
S1: that will often indicate, oh, it's always when the sisters
S1: in the room, or it's always during math or it's
S1: always on Sunday morning. So they're stressed about church. I
S1: wonder why they're always angry on Sunday mornings. So look
S1: for patterns and then you talk to the kids, but
S1: you talk to them in a respectful way, one on one.
S1: Not not with the siblings present. And you know, Jonathan,
S1: we're sad. We're concerned for some choices that you've been making.
S1: And we've been noticing that often you are critically, you're
S1: like critical and irritable when your older brother is in
S1: the room. So we're guessing there's something going on between
S1: you and your brother. We want to hear your heart.
S1: So could you share with us what's going on? So
S1: I think we ask a really heartfelt question, and then
S1: we're silent and we wait. And you know what? You know?
S1: You know this, Doctor Chapman, they often won't in the
S1: moment answer your question, but they'll come back 20 minutes
S1: or 2 hours later. Hey, dad. Hey, mom. I've been thinking.
S1: And it just it honors them that you care about
S1: what's going on. And I love that kids discover that
S1: they're not bad kids. They're not bad kids. They're not
S1: 24 over seven, 365 behaving badly in that way. There's
S1: something triggering the response. And it's sin, you know, and
S1: they need to know that there is some control that
S1: they can bring to that issue.
S5: Yeah.
S4: How is character connected to family values?
S1: Right. I hope that parents have thought about what they value,
S1: and I hope that they recognize that there's a family value.
S1: You know, God ordains the family before he ordains the church.
S1: And why are we parenting these children? Why are we
S1: married and why are we parenting these children, whether that
S1: be through birth, adoption, or fostering? What about the grandparents?
S1: Why am I invested in these kids? So there is
S1: a reason you are a family and character is what
S1: allows us to make an impact. Character is what allows
S1: us to discover our gifts and use them for for
S1: God's glory. So that's how we pass on and maintain
S1: the family values, I think. I think it's essential just
S1: without character. We're nothing. Characters are reputation, character marks us.
S1: Character is the firm foundation of our decision making. Character
S1: is how we're known. And so if you have a
S1: family value of generosity, moms and dads, let's say that
S1: you give to pregnancy resource centers. You give to prevent abortion.
S1: You give to the homeless or the hungry or to
S1: end trafficking you. You do more than tithing to your
S1: local church. You give to the building, plan to your kids.
S1: Know that. And why do you make those decisions? You
S1: talk about it and you talk about how you've chosen
S1: to be generous. Maybe your parents were generous and you
S1: learned it from them, and now you're hoping your kids
S1: are going to learn to be generous in times of plenty.
S1: And in times of want. You talk about it, you
S1: demonstrate it. You use the Scripture to to show them
S1: that this is God's choice, that we would behave in
S1: these ways. It's not simple, but it's it's very doable.
S5: Yeah.
S4: I'm glad you mentioned generosity, because, yeah, I think there
S4: are a lot of parents who are generous. You know,
S4: they support various mission causes and other things, but they
S4: don't they don't really inform their children about what they're doing.
S4: I don't know whether they think they're too young or.
S4: But but really, we ought to let them in on
S4: what we're doing. Right?
S1: Absolutely. I love asking children of all ages, what are
S1: some problems you would like to help solve?
S5: Hmm.
S1: And then we help them give to those causes. There's
S1: a family in my own church that they ask the
S1: questions of their children every once in a while, and
S1: unbeknownst to them, one of their sons was in a
S1: public school with a foster child. There was a foster
S1: kid in his class, and he noticed that that boy
S1: always wore the same sweater. So when it was time
S1: for him to clean out his closet, he said to
S1: his mom, hey, could I see if Kevin could? Could
S1: I see if Kevin could wear these clothes? And so
S1: that mom contacted the teacher to ask permission to contact
S1: the parent to see if that was okay. And now
S1: that family, because of that little boy and one friend
S1: that found me now does respite care one Friday night
S1: a month for parents of foster kids so that they
S1: take care of the kids in the church so the
S1: parents can go have a date night. So that is
S1: a way that that family is generously serving with their
S1: time and their talent. Because of a little boy who
S1: was invited to think about what he cares about. And
S1: then the other the other issue, I would say, Gary,
S1: now that there's so much online giving, kids don't even
S1: see their parents put money in an offering plate.
S5: Mhm.
S1: And if they don't have access to a bank account
S1: they don't know that we give to, you know, this,
S1: this college roommate who's now a missionary in India. Like
S1: they need to know those kinds of things because it
S1: enlarges their understanding of who we are.
S5: Yeah.
S3: I think what you're saying is really important for our kids,
S3: but it's also important for us, Doctor Cook, because we've
S3: become so used to the direct debit from the account
S3: that we forget. You know, we forget unless we get
S3: an email from, you know, compassion or whomever we're supporting.
S3: Unless you get that reminder. Oh yeah, that's right. You know,
S3: my my child's name and whatever country we need to
S3: remember what it is we're doing and then evaluate if
S3: we can, you know, can even do more in different areas,
S3: don't you think?
S1: I love that. In fact, I resisted the automatic debit
S1: from my, um, checking account for contributions for the longest
S1: time for fear that I would stop praying because when
S1: I when I, you know, made out the check and
S1: put it in the envelope and mailed it, at least
S1: that one day a month, I prayed for that cause.
S1: And yet I discovered that if I care enough about
S1: a cause, the Holy Spirit doesn't have to do a
S1: lot of work to remind me to pray. Uh, but, yeah, no,
S1: we we do need to be thinking, you know, issues
S1: are different and our people using the money. Well, let's
S1: look at, you know, the research about giving and how
S1: much of it goes to, you know, administration versus, you know,
S1: real ministry. There are there are questions we can be asking.
S1: And why not sit at the dining room table and
S1: show our kids how we how we think that through
S1: how we pray that through and why we do what
S1: we do, I agree.
S4: I think it's so important that we have let the
S4: children be a part of that part of our lives,
S4: and I don't know why. Parents, many parents have not
S4: done that, and they don't have that concept for some reason.
S4: But if they're going to if the children are going
S4: to grow up to have generosity in a heart of generosity,
S4: they're far more likely to do so. if they've if
S4: they've seen their what their parents have done, you know,
S4: in this area.
S5: So yeah.
S1: And if they've seen the benefit of what their parents
S1: have done. So again, to talk out loud about the
S1: cause effect, nature of what we're doing, the people listening
S1: don't know that generosity is actually the 13th of the
S1: baker's dozen qualities. I wanted an even dozen because it's
S1: just nice, right? And I couldn't fight the fact, though,
S1: that generosity had to be on the list, I was
S1: stunned when I did the research of how generosity causes
S1: so many other beautiful qualities service, compassion, gratefulness, and so
S1: many other things. So generosity is not just again, money.
S1: It's time, talent, resources. And then of course, the money
S1: is part of the resource.
S3: I think the answer to your question, Gary.
S6: Of.
S3: Why don't parents do this? There is a certain sense of, well,
S3: if I tell my kids, you know, all of this, uh,
S3: it will feel like tooting our own horn or my
S3: own horn as parents. And we want to be humble.
S3: And so we don't want to boast about all the things,
S3: you know, all the money that we're giving. But I
S3: agree with you that if they if they're kept in
S3: the dark about this or even kept in the dark about,
S3: you know, the monthly budget, about how much it costs
S3: for this not to overburden them with it. But, you know,
S3: they're part of a team that is is working in
S3: a family system together. I think there's a there's a
S3: humility angle to that, not letting them in that we
S3: need to get over.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Yeah, that may be true, Chris. That may be true.
S4: But I do think we need to get over it. Okay.
S4: All right.
S5: I love it.
S4: Doctor Kirk, how can parents better understand what determines their
S4: children's choices?
S5: First, I would.
S1: Say we need to think more about what determines our choices.
S1: When we become more aware of why we behave the
S1: way we behave, we can better predict why our children
S1: might be doing what they're doing. And we'll begin to
S1: see the relationship between beliefs, the choices and the outcome.
S1: And then the other thing that we do is we
S1: observe better, we hang out, we put our phones down,
S1: we look with, um, an intensity. We listen with an
S1: intensity to understand, not to judge, but to understand. And
S1: then we we try to get under the surface. Right.
S1: And was it jealousy? I've decided, by the way, in
S1: my work that jealousy is just huge in the home.
S1: Sibling rivalry, um, disagreements with parents. So much of it
S1: is jealousy. So there might be in your kids just
S1: 3 or 4 things they can't get over the thorn
S1: in the side, if you will, the sin temptation that
S1: is really, really hard for them. So look for the pattern,
S1: look for some consistency and then and then talk about it.
S4: Talk about it is uh, something again that I think
S4: sometimes parents draw back from. But the reality is, if
S4: we don't discuss these things with the kids, we don't
S4: have any influence. If we're not talking about it.
S5: Right.
S4: They can't read our minds.
S5: Amen.
S1: I was just about to say that they they can observe,
S1: but they can't interpret it. Yeah. So they can observe
S1: what we're doing. Maybe if they care enough about us.
S1: And that's a big if in some families, sadly, but
S1: they can't interpret what was going on in us that
S1: caused us to do what we did the way that
S1: we did it. So we do have to talk. And
S1: I think you earn that right when you listen to
S1: them and you earn that right when you don't lecture.
S1: I'm not. We're not talking about a long lecture. We're
S1: talking about soundbites and say, hey, Billy, did you notice
S1: what I did? Let me tell you why. You know,
S1: our neighbor just had knee surgery. I'm not sure you
S1: knew that. So that's why I went and raked leaves.
S1: He didn't ask me to. He didn't have to ask
S1: me to. I knew that it was a loving thing
S1: to do. And I had time. And it was fun.
S1: I loved the fresh air. No problem.
S5: Yeah, yeah.
S4: Well, there's no question that decision making is a huge
S4: part of a child's maturing. And all of us as parents,
S4: are concerned about whether our children make wise decisions. How
S4: can parents help their children feel safe enough to talk
S4: about or ask help in terms of making decisions. Uh,
S4: because I have I've run into a lot of parents
S4: who say, you know, I don't want to tell them
S4: everything they should do, you know? And I don't want
S4: to force them to make decisions that are not their decisions.
S4: I want to and that's that's a worthy goal. I mean,
S4: we don't want to, you know, we want them to
S4: be to learn how to make wise decisions for themselves.
S4: But what what light can you shed on that topic?
S1: Right. It's so important. You know, one of the hard
S1: things for parents is to let kids make foolish decisions
S1: and suffer the consequences of their foolishness. Now, I'm not
S1: saying let them run out into the road. Obviously yell stop! Yeah,
S1: but when you see that your child has forgotten a
S1: lunch like it's he walked right by it and it's
S1: a red lunchbox, it should not be hard to see.
S1: And it's right on the breakfast bar. But he walked
S1: right past it. Don't always rescue him and say, hey,
S1: get your lunch. Sometimes let him suffer the consequences of
S1: his inattentive choice, right? And then another thing that we
S1: do again, I think we admit our struggles. We admit
S1: that we made decisions that were not wise, and that
S1: gives our kids a chance to find out. How do
S1: we know it was unwise and what were the consequences?
S1: And what are we going to do differently the next time?
S1: And basically, you know, to be present and available, no
S1: child is going to. Kids tell me all the time,
S1: I'm not going to go talk to my mom if
S1: her phone's in the hand, if she has her phone
S1: as soon as it buzzes or bings or tings or rings,
S1: she's gone. And so, Doctor Cathy, I'm not going to
S1: have a hard conversation and have to start it over.
S1: So if you want your kids to come to you
S1: and say, you know, I found out this kid was
S1: gossiping about me and mommy, I don't know what to do.
S1: Your daughter's not going to come to you and ask
S1: for help in that, you know. She feels that you
S1: won't understand, that you won't have compassion, and that you
S1: won't be available to long enough to problem solve. And yeah,
S1: we could talk all day about it. It's so important.
S4: Yeah. I mean, you the whole thing about the phone
S4: and interrupting your conversation with a child because your phone rang, uh,
S4: I mean, it's just commonplace in so many families, you know,
S4: and they fail to recognize that what they're communicating is
S4: somebody out there that you don't know is more important
S4: than you are. You know.
S5: Exactly.
S4: Whose voicemail. Okay, let it go. Let's go.
S5: Yeah. No, it's it's very hurtful.
S1: And children tell us that they're not able to say
S1: that to mom. They're not able to say mom like
S1: they're afraid to say I was hurt when you answered
S1: the phone. Um, I know voicemail. And if they don't
S1: want to leave a message, then tough. And there's texting. No,
S1: and I have. I've actually started recommending that parents put
S1: their phone in airplane mode. You know, if you've never flown,
S1: you don't know what that is. But airplane mode you
S1: won't get you won't get any vibration at all. You
S1: won't have any clue that anything is going on. If
S1: your phone is on silent, you can still realize that
S1: something just happened and you glance over at it. And
S1: as soon as you do that, your sons and daughters
S1: are thinking, yeah, she doesn't really care. And that's not
S1: what you mean to communicate. You know, no parent means
S1: to communicate that, but it's the child's perception that is
S1: what's so rich and important here.
S4: Now you write that character traits are connected. That is,
S4: various character traits are connected. And that understanding this is
S4: a key to teaching character traits. Can you explain that
S4: a bit?
S1: I would love to. It's one of the reasons that
S1: I have quote unquote only 48 qualities rather than 120,
S1: because I realized that if you teach one and you
S1: teach it in a broader context, you can actually be
S1: teaching 3 or 4 at the same time as an example. Um,
S1: and I discovered this when I was writing the book.
S1: I love to write because it helps me think I
S1: was in line to get on a plane in an airport.
S1: Long story. I won't go into it all, but I
S1: was patient. The people around me weren't. And this isn't
S1: about me being amazing. There's plenty of days I'm impatient,
S1: but on this particular day, I was able to exhibit
S1: the quality of patience, and I and I finally got
S1: onto the airplane after quite a messy situation. And I'm like,
S1: why was I able to do that? Like I said,
S1: thank you. I didn't, you know, gripe at the people. Well,
S1: I realized that my patience was founded upon my other centeredness.
S1: I care more about others than I do myself. Compassion.
S1: So I was compassionate for the woman who was checking
S1: us in for our flight. Optimism. Where I have a
S1: tendency to think well for people before I would think badly.
S1: And humility and flexibility. Oh, flexibility is top 48. Like
S1: being able to, you know, not have to be in
S1: control to not argue and debate every time there's a
S1: change of plans. So if you rather than, you know,
S1: be patient, be patient. Why aren't you more patient? I
S1: wonder if it would be beneficial to talk about, you know,
S1: if you would have compassion for your grandmother. Her neighbor
S1: just fell and broke her hip. So grandma is scared
S1: now to walk. And when you run around, she gets
S1: nervous and you'll notice that she kind of freezes. I
S1: wonder if you held her hand and walked with her
S1: instead of in front of her, and walked slowly with her.
S1: That would oh, that would be so loving. And that
S1: would demonstrate compassion for the fear that your grandmother has.
S1: Could you do that for us? Those kinds of conversations
S1: connect beliefs to behavior and show them how the character
S1: qualities are connected. And they honor God and they glorify God.
S1: And that's, you know, that's the bottom line. So I
S1: hope that makes sense.
S4: Yeah. I don't know that I have thought in terms
S4: of that myself, to be honest with you, because I
S4: typically tend to see these traits as just isolated things.
S4: But in reality, what you're saying is true. They're not isolated,
S4: they're tied together, and one impacts the other. So that's
S4: going to help me. The next time I'm in the airport,
S4: ask myself, I love it. Why was I why was
S4: I patient.
S5: I love it, why was I.
S4: Not patient?
S5: Why was I not patient? Yeah.
S4: Yeah. When identifying positive character traits to develop in in
S4: our children, why is it important to also identify and
S4: talk about their negative traits.
S1: I think sometimes the negative is easier to see. So
S1: our parents are frustrated by their kids being rude and
S1: inattentive and disagreeable and dishonest. So the negative is easy
S1: to see. We talk about it. Don't be dishonest. But
S1: the change process from Ephesians 422 through 24 would teach
S1: us that we have to take off the old self
S1: and put on the new self. So if you want
S1: a child to become honest, they have to take off dishonesty.
S1: If you want a child to become agreeable, they have
S1: to take off the disagreeable spirit. So I think it's
S1: beneficial for a parent to see the connection and to
S1: decide what to talk about. And I would like us
S1: to talk more about what we want than what we
S1: currently have. So you talk about being agreeable rather than
S1: don't be so disagreeable, so use the word that you
S1: want your children to exhibit because they become who we
S1: say they are. But when we know as parents, educators
S1: and grandparents that there's a negative we're trying to overcome,
S1: I think it trains us to talk differently and it
S1: gives kids hope. I've watched families, you know, take a
S1: whiteboard and make a make a list. I'm going to
S1: take off this and put on this. I'm going to
S1: take off this and put on this. So in the
S1: back of the book, the appendix that I have for
S1: each of the 48 qualities, I actually list 4 or
S1: 5 negatives for each of the positives and our pre-readers
S1: have found that really helpful to go there and go, okay,
S1: I'm really bugged by this behavior. What's the opposite? Because
S1: you know what, Doctor Chapman? Sometimes parents are so tired, right?
S1: And they're so sick of their kids behavior. Like I
S1: get that, that all they see is the red flag.
S1: All they see is what? They're driving me nuts. So
S1: we need to. We need to think. No, no, no,
S1: what would be the opposite? And then how can I
S1: make that happen through the glory of God, right.
S4: Yeah. I want to go back to the you mentioned
S4: the lying because this is a common factor in raising children,
S4: that children do lie and sometimes just bald faced lie. Uh,
S4: how does a parent respond to that?
S1: Well, with grace and mercy, because we've all done it
S1: with a belief that our kids aren't bad. There's something
S1: triggering the decision. Fear they're going to get caught. They
S1: have an expectation for themselves that isn't realistic, but they
S1: can't believe that they're wrong about themselves. You know, dad's
S1: going to get mad. Whatever. And the consequence, the consequences
S1: are so important. So if children lie, a consequence is
S1: we check up on them. So if your son comes
S1: home from the neighbor after playing a while, you call
S1: the neighbor. Well, mommy, what are you doing? Well, I'm
S1: calling Miss Jane to find out how if you behaved. Okay, well, mommy,
S1: I just told you that I was good. Yes, but
S1: yesterday you didn't tell me the truth. So the consequence
S1: for your choice to lie is that I make a
S1: choice to call and check up on you. So this is.
S1: This is what happens when we catch you, you know,
S1: with a pattern of behavior that concerns us. We're going
S1: to check up. And once we find out that you
S1: are telling us the truth again, you know, we'll stop
S1: checking up on you. But I think one of the
S1: things that's very, very important is to let them know
S1: there are consequences for their decisions, good consequences with good
S1: character choices and negative consequences when when they mess up,
S1: if I can put it that way.
S4: Let's let's talk further on this whole issue of in
S4: what ways do positive and negative consequences build biblical character
S4: in children?
S1: Right, right. I believe that all character starts with choice.
S1: All choices are rooted in a worldview, which is why
S1: a Christian worldview is so important. So when we have
S1: positive and negative consequences in place, like we don't get
S1: in the way of the way that don't always rescue
S1: your kids, let them suffer the consequences of their choices.
S1: Then they begin to understand, oh, this is why mommy said,
S1: be kind. This is why mommy said, don't gossip. This
S1: is why mommy said generosity is beautiful. Oh, this is
S1: why dad said he likes that I'm resilient. He said
S1: that he likes that I'm not giving up and I'm
S1: trying more. And look, I did better today. So daddy
S1: was right. That resiliency is a good thing. So we
S1: talk about the cause effect nature. Again they don't necessarily
S1: think that way. We can help them think that way.
S1: A true example was a dad who heard me speak
S1: about this, who forgot to turn in a report at work,
S1: and the supervisor knocked on the door an hour after
S1: it was due and said, hey, you know Ben, where's
S1: the report? And so the dad came home and said
S1: to his kids, man, I got to tell you guys
S1: I had a bad day at work. I chose to
S1: do what I wanted to do at work rather than
S1: what my boss told me to do. I know you
S1: guys have sometimes done that too, and I didn't get
S1: the report done that he needed. So I'm not going
S1: to get to go to your soccer game tonight. And
S1: I'm so sorry. I've got to stay home and get
S1: this thing done. And I'm going to have to build trust.
S1: My boss doesn't trust me. I'm going to have to
S1: rebuild trust. He's probably going to doubt whether or not
S1: I'll do something right. So one of the things I
S1: did kids was I went into my calendar and I've
S1: already outlined that every Tuesday at 2:00 the report is due.
S1: So that's now highlighted in my calendar, hoping that that's
S1: going to help me not make the same mistake. So
S1: we talk about the consequences that we've experienced in hopes
S1: that our kids will begin to put two and two
S1: together and get four. Yeah.
S4: Yeah. I think it's important also, and I know you
S4: do in terms of when you have a rule for children,
S4: tell them what the consequences will be if they break
S4: the rule. So they know and you know, what's going
S4: to happen. You know, I remember my son, he had
S4: a relatively new bicycle, and I said, now let's let's
S4: have one rule here every night before, you know, you
S4: come in and we get ready for bed and all
S4: of that. You put your bicycle in the shed and
S4: and if you don't, if you leave it out one night,
S4: then the consequences are you do not get to ride
S4: the bicycle the next day. Uh, is that is that
S4: okay with you? Well, you know, yeah. He thought that
S4: was fair, and I thought that was fair. So I
S4: remember the first time it happened. And so I said
S4: to him, I said, oh, Derek, I said, I noticed
S4: you left your bicycle out last night. And I said,
S4: you remember the consequences, right? You don't get to ride
S4: the bicycle today. He said, oh, dad, but all the
S4: guys are going to be riding this afternoon. Dad let
S4: me ride today, dad. And and not tomorrow.
S5: Um, and.
S4: I said, you know, son, I can see how you
S4: would feel that way, because if you're if your kids
S4: if your friends want to ride, you'd want to ride
S4: with them. And if I were in your shoes, I'd
S4: feel the same way. But remember, we we agreed on
S4: the consequences. So I'm sorry, but I can't let you
S4: ride the bicycle today because, you know, you broke the rule. Well,
S4: he wasn't happy, but he never did it again. He
S4: never did it again. Amen. So I think if parents
S4: can get that concept that that, you know, let them
S4: suffer the consequence. We tend to kind of cave in
S4: if they cry, you know, or yes, we should be empathetic,
S4: you know, but but let them suffer the consequences. Yeah.
S4: That's the way we learn. Oh, goodness.
S1: No parent wants their kids to be miserable. But it's
S1: a short misery for greater gain. So there's two things
S1: in your example that I just want to highlight that
S1: I think are so important when you have a child say,
S1: I agree. You know, when you say that, you know,
S1: every night the bike goes in the shed and here's why.
S1: You know, it could get stolen, the weather could, you know,
S1: make it rusty, whatever. Here's the reason. And and so
S1: you've agreed and you have your son say, I agree.
S1: And you teach your kids that their word matters. Jesus
S1: is the word. His word matters. Our words matter. We
S1: become who we say we are. So I agree, dad.
S1: And now then the next day you can say, now
S1: you agreed. So don't tell me that you didn't understand.
S1: And then the other thing is, when you say, you know,
S1: you say, no, no, I understand that you're hurt, that
S1: you can't ride the bike. But the answer is no.
S1: This is where parents and I don't envy them. This
S1: doctor Chapman, do you have to let your no be? No.
S1: And you let. And then you maybe you distract the
S1: kid and you say, hey, why don't you. Why don't
S1: you sit and, you know, shoot or why don't you
S1: shoot hoops or, you know, do you want to come
S1: in and work on the jigsaw puzzle, or do you
S1: want to go walking, like, show them that there's alternatives,
S1: but let them let them suffer the consequences of their decision.
S1: You are not a mean dad and your kid is
S1: not a bad kid. Something happened there. Love that example.
S4: Well, let's, uh, as we come to a close today, uh,
S4: let me ask this. What if there's a parent listening
S4: today whose teenager has rebelled? They're out of control, and
S4: the parents really tried their best to do everything that
S4: the things that we're talking about today. What would you
S4: say to that parent?
S7: Oh, way.
S1: To end on an easy note, Doctor.
S5: Chapman.
S1: I would say don't give up. You can't give up.
S1: These are your kids or this is your son or daughter.
S1: So I would ask that you make sure you surround
S1: yourself with God's presence and the presence of his people,
S1: who will build you up and encourage you and, um,
S1: be in the Word of God, which is strength and
S1: life to you. The daily bread that you need in
S1: order to have the compassion and the love and the
S1: strength that you need in order to continually talk with
S1: and and deal with a rebellious kid. Uh, pray and
S1: pray expecting. Pray regularly and pray expecting that God is
S1: on your side and is going to make a way.
S1: And I think I would, I would respectfully ask you
S1: to consider whether or not you have done everything we've
S1: talked about. Kids tell me, you know, my parents do
S1: a lot of telling. They don't really do a lot
S1: of teaching. Let me say that we drill and skill
S1: the ABCs and the one two threes, and we state
S1: a rule and expect compliance. But because of sin, character
S1: and obedience are harder to teach than anything else. And
S1: that's why our example matters so much. And that's why
S1: direct instruction. Good old fashioned. This is the way we
S1: do it, not this way. It's really important. And I
S1: would say that we can say to some kids, some
S1: rebellious kids, some kids who are not walking well with us,
S1: we can we can explain that. We know we've let
S1: you down with, you know, the lack of of hope here.
S1: We really want to start with a fresh slate. Could
S1: we do that on January 1st? Could we do that
S1: on February 1st? Could we do that tomorrow? Could we
S1: wake up tomorrow? And could it be a new day?
S1: And could you give us a fresh start as we're
S1: we're still learning to parent. And would you give yourself
S1: a fresh start and stop looking back at the harm
S1: and at the the frustration? So that's what's on my heart.
S1: Give yourself grace and mercy and and and all those things.
S4: Yeah. I think that's so important. And the reality is,
S4: you know, we're not responsible for our own, especially our
S4: older children's things that they do or don't do. Uh,
S4: but but we should, but we shouldn't take that on
S4: as a burden that I have failed. Uh, yes. I
S4: think we should ask God. Lord, show me where I
S4: have failed. And, yes, confess that to God. And then,
S4: as you just described, confess it to the child and
S4: ask for a fresh start. Having done that, then I
S4: think what we want to do is try to let
S4: our behaviour be different after that. Because that's what if
S4: the child is still in the it's still at home.
S4: They're looking for a change in your behaviour, if indeed
S4: you know you've been part of the problem. Well, let
S4: me not only thank you for being with us today,
S4: Doctor Cook, but also uh, for this book, because I think,
S4: like all of your books, they're very, very practical. And
S4: I thank the parents who are listening. We all want
S4: our children to have godly biblical character, and this book
S4: spells it out in a way that I think is
S4: going to be very, very helpful to parents. So thanks
S4: again for writing it and thanks for being with us today.
S1: Thank you for your affirmation. It's always a joy to
S1: spend time with you. Appreciate you a lot.
S3: There's a lot of hope here today, and if you
S3: want to see more about Doctor Kathy Cook's latest, go
S3: to Building relationships.us. The title of her book is Parent
S3: Differently Raise kids with biblical character that changes culture. Again,
S3: go to building relationships.us. And next week, as we continue
S3: our summer best of broadcasts, the important topic of loneliness.
S3: Don't miss the encouraging conversation coming up in one week.
S2: Our thanks to Janice backing and Steve Wick for their
S2: work behind the scenes. Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman
S2: is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers,
S2: a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.