S1: Forgive him. You've got to be kidding me. I can't
S1: even look at him, let alone forgive him.
S2: After what they did. No way. That was unforgivable. I'll
S2: never forgive them for that.
S3: You can still forgive them because the purpose is to
S3: set yourself free. The toxic effects that we harbor when
S3: we don't forgive. Of resentment and bitterness and unforgiveness. God
S3: wants us to forgive because he wants us to have that.
S3: That inner freedom that we get when we do forgive.
S4: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S4: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages.
S4: Today it's one of the hardest things to do, and
S4: our guest says it's the key to living in freedom.
S4: If you're struggling with the idea of forgiving someone or
S4: multiple people, don't miss the conversation straight ahead. Author and
S4: speaker Debi Barr will join us today.
S5: Debi has written some great resources, including one with Doctor Chapman,
S5: and I don't think there's any more important topic or
S5: one that hits all of us on some level, like
S5: the one that we're talking about today. If you go
S5: to building relationships us, you'll see that featured resource forgiveness,
S5: the choice that sets you free. You can find out more. Again,
S5: building relationships.us. Gary. I don't think I've ever asked you
S5: this question. Was there ever anyone you found it hard
S5: to forgive?
S6: You know, Chris, to be honest, I can't remember that
S6: I ever, ever had a struggle for giving someone. Now,
S6: I have had to forgive a few people along the
S6: way because none of us are perfect, and I've had
S6: to be forgiven. And maybe that's why. At least, you know,
S6: in my memory, I find it rather easy to forgive
S6: people because I've been forgiven, you know. And when you've
S6: been forgiven by God for all of your failures. We
S6: do have outside help as Christians and having the attitude
S6: of Christ. You know, and being willing to forgive others.
S6: But this is an important topic and a lot of
S6: people struggle with, and I'm glad we're going to talk
S6: about it today.
S5: Me too. And I'm glad we've got Debbie Bar back
S5: with us. Deborah is an author, speaker, health educator. Her
S5: special interests are in worksite health promotion, Alzheimer's disease, living
S5: healthy lifestyle, and Christian growth. She's written Grace for the
S5: Unexpected Journey strength for the Cancer Journey. She co-authored the
S5: book with Doctor Chapman, Keeping Love Alive As Memories Fade.
S5: And our featured resource today is that book forgiveness. It's
S5: a mini book, actually. Forgiveness. The choice that sets you free.
S5: Find out more at building relationships.us.
S6: Well, Debbie, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S3: Uh, thank you so much. It's really good to be back.
S6: Yeah. You're not afraid to tackle some really difficult issues.
S6: Why did you want to deal with the issue of forgiveness?
S6: What motivated you?
S3: Well, you know, Chris actually touched on that. I wanted
S3: to focus on forgiveness because it is an important issue
S3: for all believers. You know, we're grateful to be forgiven people,
S3: but sometimes we really struggle to be forgiving people. You know,
S3: to forgive others as we have been forgiven by God,
S3: as you mentioned. Yeah. And so forgiveness is an issue
S3: that concerns every Christian. So I feel it's a topic worth,
S3: you know, a deeper look than we often give it.
S6: Well, I think you are right for sure. Talk about
S6: those voices we heard at the beginning of the program
S6: where they said, I can't forgive. What they did is unforgivable.
S6: A lot of people are there, aren't they?
S3: Yeah, definitely. And honestly, I would guess that everyone listening
S3: to this conversation has struggled or will struggle at some
S3: point in their life to forgive someone because, you know,
S3: we live in a fallen world, and it's almost impossible
S3: to get through life without having somebody do something or
S3: say something that truly offends us or deeply hurts us.
S3: And sometimes that happens deliberately. And when we're deliberately insulted
S3: or betrayed or violated, it can be very difficult to forgive.
S3: So that's that's why I think it's good to take
S3: a deeper dive into the topic of forgiveness.
S6: Yeah, I can I can empathize with people who have
S6: that feeling of I can't ever forgive. It's just they
S6: hurt me too deeply. And, you know, so I think
S6: that those feelings are rather natural for some people. And
S6: that's why I agree with you. We need to dig
S6: dig more deeply into the whole concept of forgiveness. So
S6: let's get a working definition of forgiveness. What isn't forgiveness?
S6: And what is forgiveness?
S3: Oh, this is such an important question because so many
S3: people are confused about what forgiveness is and what it isn't.
S3: And that confusion is what often gets in the way
S3: of actually forgiving somebody. So it's important to understand what
S3: forgiveness doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that what was done
S3: to you is okay. It doesn't mean that the person
S3: is not accountable for what they did, and it doesn't
S3: mean that your pain doesn't matter. Or you should just,
S3: you know, quote unquote, just get over it. When we understand,
S3: you know what it isn't, we can better appreciate what
S3: it is and what it is. And, Doctor Chapman, I've
S3: heard you say this as well. What it is is
S3: the decision to no longer hold somebody's offense against them.
S3: You know, it's the choice to cancel the debt. It
S3: feels like they owe you. And this mirrors, you know,
S3: what God did for us. And there was a debt
S3: that separated us from God that we couldn't pay. And
S3: that debt was cancelled by what Jesus did on the cross.
S3: So when a Christ follower forgives another Christ follower or,
S3: you know, a non Christ follower, even they mirror what
S3: Jesus did for them.
S6: Yeah. So and I think that's an important distinction, that
S6: forgiveness is not that you have a certain feeling. It's
S6: a choice, a conscious choice to deliver, to lift the penalty.
S6: And obviously we can't control our feelings. You know, our
S6: emotions just come. We don't ask for them, but we
S6: do control our choices that we make. So now, now
S6: you write that the choice to forgive is not about
S6: or for the person who hurt you. Forgiveness is not
S6: for them. Forgiveness is for you. What do you mean
S6: by that?
S3: Well, this is where the title of the book actually
S3: comes from. You know, forgiveness. The choice that sets you free.
S3: There are actually two kinds of forgiveness. One kind does
S3: involve a conversation with the person who hurt us, but
S3: the other kind takes place entirely in the mind and
S3: the heart of the offended person. It's one sided forgiveness.
S3: It doesn't involve the person who caused the hurt. This
S3: is called unilateral forgiveness. And that was a new term
S3: for me that I discovered while I was writing this book.
S3: Unilateral forgiveness requires nothing from the person who caused the offense,
S3: and so it doesn't matter if that other person has
S3: asked for your forgiveness or not, and it doesn't matter
S3: if they have no remorse for what they did. It
S3: doesn't matter if they're not speaking to you. It doesn't
S3: even matter if that person has died. You can still
S3: forgive them, because the purpose of unilateral forgiveness is to
S3: set yourself free. It's for us. It's for our peace
S3: of mind and our heart, happiness for our spiritual and
S3: emotional freedom from the toxic effects that we harbor sometimes
S3: when we don't forgive. Of resentment and bitterness and unforgiveness.
S3: And so God wants us to forgive because he wants
S3: us to have that that inner freedom that we get
S3: when we do forgive.
S6: Yeah. I think it's important that we make the distinction
S6: between those two kinds of forgiveness, because many times people
S6: are thinking, well, I can't forgive because the other person
S6: hasn't apologized. You know, they haven't acknowledged that they did
S6: me wrong, and so I can't forgive them. You know,
S6: I sometimes use the word release them to God, you know,
S6: as opposed to the using the word forgiveness. But I
S6: think it's the same concept that we can release. You
S6: can say, God, you know how hurt I am. You
S6: know what I'm feeling, but I don't want to hold
S6: this anger and hurt and all inside. I want to
S6: release them to you. Put them in your hands. God's
S6: a loving God and a just God. So I think
S6: recognizing that difference is going to be important for us
S6: as we continue our discussion today. Now you use the
S6: word jettison when talking about forgiveness. What does that mean?
S3: That's not a word we hear very often, but what
S3: it means, I think, sheds some light on what forgiveness means.
S3: Jettison means to discard or get rid of something. You know,
S3: in centuries past, when ships on the ocean encountered like
S3: a life threatening storm at sea with the crew did,
S3: was they jettisoned the cargo. They threw the heavy cargo
S3: into the ocean to give those on board a better
S3: chance of surviving a violent storm. So forgiving is a
S3: decision to jettison the heavy emotional cargo of resentment and
S3: bitterness from your life, instead of continuing to live under
S3: the burden, you know of that weight.
S6: Debbie, there's a spiritual component to forgiveness. It's really at
S6: the heart of Christianity, as you mentioned earlier. But sometimes
S6: people who have been forgiven have a hard time forgiving others.
S6: Why is that? Talk about that a moment.
S3: Yeah. You have touched on something real important there. Forgiveness.
S3: Researchers point to two components or two aspects of forgiveness.
S3: They say there's the decisional forgiveness and then there's emotional forgiveness.
S3: So for for Christ followers, the decision to forgive is
S3: often pretty quick and easy because we know God wants
S3: us to do that. But it can take a while
S3: for our emotions to catch up, because every time we
S3: think of the offense, we feel that hurt all over again.
S3: So it's the emotional pain that causes us sometimes to
S3: really struggle for a while before we do forgive. There's
S3: a great quote from Lewis Smedes about the timing of forgiveness,
S3: and I really I like this quote. It's in the book.
S3: He said there are instant forgivers, I suppose, but not many.
S3: We should not count on the power to forgive. Bad
S3: hurts very quickly. God takes his time with a lot
S3: of things. Why should we not take ours with a
S3: hard miracle like forgiving. And I like that quote because
S3: there's a lot of grace in those words. You know,
S3: God knows our hurts. And he's well aware that it
S3: can be very hard to forgive. So there's a lot
S3: more to forgiveness than sometimes we realize. You know, the
S3: decision to do it is one thing. The realization that
S3: God wants us to do it is, you know, that
S3: goes without saying, but the struggle is the emotional component. Yeah.
S3: And sometimes it takes a while.
S6: Now, closely associated with that is this idea that you've heard,
S6: and I've heard what people say, that forgiveness is forgive
S6: and forget. Uh, but this, this remembering is tied into
S6: these emotions, too. What do you think of that statement,
S6: first of all, and how does it fit in?
S3: Oh, forgive and forget. Wouldn't it be nice? But but
S3: it's a myth. And the reason it's a myth is
S3: because human beings don't have the ability to simply decide.
S3: We will no longer remember something. You know, God can
S3: do that, but we can't do that. In fact, it's
S3: the opposite. We are biologically wired to remember anything that's
S3: emotionally painful. In fact, the more emotion and experience generates,
S3: the more likely it is that we will remember it.
S3: And the biological reason for that is there is a
S3: pair of brain structures called the amygdala. We've got one
S3: amygdala on each side of our head. And when you
S3: have a painful emotional experience, it's the job of the
S3: amygdala to tag the memory in such a way that
S3: you actually remember it better than other experiences. And so
S3: this is a God given survival thing. Preserving strong, painful
S3: memories actually helps keep us safe. Like, for example, the
S3: reason you don't put your hand on the hot stove
S3: the second time is because you remember what happened the
S3: first time, and the painful memories are all tagged like
S3: that to help keep us safe. And that's the reason
S3: it's a mistake to wait for your emotions to give
S3: you the green light to forgive. You know, memories might
S3: get dim over time, but it's not likely that you're
S3: ever going to completely forget a really painful wrong that
S3: was done to you. So you may never get to
S3: the point where emotionally you feel like forgiving. And it
S3: comes back to your point, Gary, that you made. Ultimately,
S3: forgiveness is a decision of the will and not the emotions. Yeah,
S3: and so forgive and forget Um. I like the forgive part, but.
S3: But not the forget part.
S6: Yeah. I sometimes said to people that when you make
S6: the choice to forgive and then the memory comes back,
S6: and often the emotions, as you said, the emotions come back.
S6: Or maybe the emotions haven't even left, the emotions have
S6: hurt and so forth. But to say to God, you know, Lord,
S6: you know what I'm remembering today? And you know what
S6: I'm feeling again today, but I thank you that I
S6: chose to forgive that. Now help me to do something
S6: worthwhile today. And we don't we don't allow the emotions
S6: and the the memories to control our behavior. Now, you
S6: note that experts who study this whole concept report a
S6: connection between empathy and forgiveness. First of all, talk about
S6: what is empathy and what is the connection between empathy
S6: and forgiveness.
S3: Wow. I would have to look up in a dictionary
S3: with the definition of empathy is. But I guess I
S3: would try to describe it as a feeling of compassion
S3: and understanding for what that person is going through, and
S3: the connection that I've made and others have made with
S3: forgiveness is what is that person going through in their
S3: own personal life that might have caused them to say
S3: that hurtful thing, or to do that hurtful thing? You know,
S3: are they going through a divorce? Have they just lost
S3: their job? Does their child have cancer? You know, have
S3: they just buried a loved one? You know, when there's
S3: a yes answer there, it can help us have empathy
S3: for that person. And that does make it a little
S3: easier to forgive. Mm.
S6: Well, I think that makes sense. Makes a whole lot
S6: of sense. You know, when we try to see the
S6: world from the other person's eyes. Yeah. Do you have
S6: a personal story about empathy that you could share with us?
S3: I do, actually, I have several, but. Okay. But I'll
S3: just pick one. Um, for many years, I used the
S3: same stable, very reliable CPA to prepare my taxes. So
S3: every year when the taxes were ready, I would get
S3: a phone call asking me, come on in and sign
S3: the forms so she could submit them. So one year
S3: I realized it was getting really close to the filing
S3: deadline and I had not gotten that call, so I emailed.
S3: I left a voicemail. I didn't get any response. So
S3: finally I thought, well, I guess I have to go
S3: in there. So I drove to the office and the
S3: assistant was there. I was happy she was there because
S3: I thought if the office is empty, I don't know
S3: what I'm going to do. But she was there and
S3: I asked her if my taxes were ready and she
S3: said they were not. And so I asked when she
S3: thought they would be ready and she said she didn't know.
S3: And so my next question is what's what's going on?
S3: She explained that my taxes would not be done by
S3: the deadline because her boss had gone on vacation. What?
S3: She took a vacation during tax season and she left
S3: my taxes undone on her desk. You know, I, I
S3: had known this woman for a long time, and this
S3: was completely out of character for her. So my taxes
S3: were late and I had to pay a penalty. And
S3: I was not happy with my CPA. But months later,
S3: I ran into the woman's husband, and in that conversation,
S3: he shared with me that his wife had dementia, and
S3: I immediately realized that that odd behavior during tax season
S3: was the disease starting to take hold of her. This
S3: filled me with empathy and the resentment that I had
S3: harbored toward her for inconveniencing me. It just kind of
S3: melted into forgiveness. So empathy, in my experience, makes makes
S3: forgiveness so much easier. Yeah.
S6: Chris, that ring a bell with you? Anything? It does.
S5: Well, I had the same thing happen with a with
S5: a tax thing. It's it's amazing that you'd say.
S6: This.
S5: Because the CPA had put so you know, a payment
S5: through that actually didn't go through. But we didn't see
S5: that for a couple of months. And then came I mean,
S5: 2 or 3 three years of getting these notices. You
S5: didn't do this then. And I thought we had, you know,
S5: covered it over and it was like all this stress
S5: and strain. And then I found out the same kind
S5: of thing, that there was a medical issue that was
S5: going on with why she hadn't hadn't seen this. And
S5: it was like, you know what? Let's just like you said,
S5: if I can understand why this happens and I don't
S5: jump to, oh, you know, you don't like me anymore
S5: and you're you're incompetent or this, that or the other thing.
S5: It's like, no, she made a mistake. It was it
S5: was not. In one sense, it was her fault. But
S5: it wasn't her fault either. And have I ever done
S5: something like that? Absolutely. I do it every day. So
S5: when you can, when you can wrap your mind around
S5: that or. Debbie, I think what you're saying is believe
S5: the best about that other person rather than jumping to
S5: the the powerful negative that you have. Yeah. And and
S5: it will be easier to not let it go because
S5: you didn't let it go. You still had to, you know,
S5: incur the, the the penalty, but to understand it and
S5: to then make that choice.
S3: Yeah. You're absolutely right. And your point is really good
S3: to think the best because sometimes you don't find out
S3: the backstory, you don't know the backstory, you don't know
S3: what they're going through. And it just so happened that
S3: you and I both found out what that was. But
S3: many times you don't know.
S6: Well, some offenses are easier to forgive than others. Obviously,
S6: you identified one type of offense that is especially hard
S6: to deal with. What is that offense?
S3: Well, this is just my opinion, but I think the
S3: most difficult forgiveness challenges we face are Our offenses that
S3: are done to us anonymously, and anonymous offenses just seem
S3: to be a part of modern life more so than
S3: in generations past. You know, things like hit and run
S3: damage to your car while it's in a parking garage,
S3: or Amazon packages delivered to your front porch, and then
S3: they're stolen by, you know, anonymous porch pirates or, you know,
S3: identity theft that leaves you stuck with bills for things
S3: you never bought or sends your tax refund to somebody
S3: other than you. And you know the worst, the worst
S3: of the worst would be like a drive by shooting
S3: where this unscrupulous person remains completely frustratingly anonymous. And, you know,
S3: I can say from personal experience that when there's no
S3: one to even hold accountable. There's also this sense of
S3: outrage that the person got away with it just because
S3: they can't be identified. That's a heavier forgiveness challenge than,
S3: you know, when you might be able to sit down
S3: with someone and talk about it. But you can't do
S3: that in these cases.
S6: You say that that situation gives the opportunity to pray
S6: a special kind of prayer. Tell us about that.
S3: Yeah. When the offending person is anonymous, when the offense
S3: was anonymous, here's how I think about it. Even though
S3: the identity of this person is unknown to you, you're
S3: thinking about them. You know, in the providence of God,
S3: they're on your mind. So this is an opportunity to
S3: use your secret weapon, which is prayer, to impact the
S3: life of this person because God has a plan for
S3: their life, too. He knows who they are, where they are,
S3: what compelled them to do what they did. And when
S3: you bring that person to God in prayer, you release
S3: both into the situation and into that person's life, the
S3: supernatural power of God. And in so doing, you fulfill
S3: the biblical mandate that's in Luke six that tells us,
S3: pray for those who mistreat you. And so something wrong
S3: that was done to you, something bad has now set
S3: in motion something good. And when you see anonymous offenses
S3: in this light, it also helps you feel more like
S3: a victor than a victim.
S7: Mhm.
S6: So you're not praying God you know who they are
S6: and get em and get em now.
S7: Uh, no.
S3: That personally that's not my prayer.
S6: What what would the proper prayer. More proper prayer B.
S7: I.
S3: Think it would be God. You know who they are.
S3: You know why they did what they did. I pray
S3: that your spirit would begin to work in their circumstances,
S3: in their conscience, to move them in the direction toward
S3: you where they need to go, something to that effect. Yeah.
S3: And I once prayed that and something that was stolen
S3: from me actually was brought back anonymously. I still don't
S3: know who took it or what the circumstances were for them,
S3: that they brought it back, but it was left near
S3: my mail slot when I lived in an apartment. So
S3: God hears.
S6: Yeah, yeah. Apparently, God touched their hearts. Yeah.
S4: You're listening to the podcast Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S4: He's the author of the New York Times best seller,
S4: The Five Love Languages. Go to five Love languages.com and
S4: you can find more ways to strengthen your relationships. You
S4: can also see today's resource, Debbie Barr's book, Forgiveness The
S4: Choice That Sets You Free. Just go to five Love languages.com.
S6: Debbie, did you learn anything while researching forgiveness that really
S6: surprised you?
S3: Yeah, I actually learned several things that surprised me, but
S3: one of the biggest ones was what we've already mentioned
S3: that there are two kinds of forgiveness. I think in
S3: my mind, there was only one thing to do, and
S3: it and it had to result in reconciliation of a relationship.
S3: I didn't know anything about unilateral forgiveness. You know, the
S3: one sided forgiveness. There's not that conversation. Um, God is
S3: pleased simply because it draws us closer to him and
S3: prepares us maybe to have that conversation with the other person.
S6: Yeah. You know, I think many people have struggled with
S6: this because they don't make the distinction between these two kinds,
S6: you know, and they hear the pastor say, you've got
S6: to forgive everybody. And sometimes my question is, does God
S6: forgive everybody? And the answer is no. God forgives those
S6: who repent. You know, who confess that they've sinned and
S6: that restores our starts a relationship with God when that happens. Uh,
S6: but I think your discovery of this concept of two
S6: kinds of forgiveness, uh, one which doesn't involve reconciliation and
S6: doesn't involve repentance, but it's a releasing that person to
S6: God and letting God take care of that. And you're
S6: not carrying all the resentment and hurt and all that
S6: inside with you forever. So let me ask you this personally.
S6: Did what you learned change the way you deal with
S6: forgiveness personally?
S3: Yeah. You know, it really did. Um, it elevated the
S3: importance I now place on forgiveness. You know, realizing that
S3: God never wants me to allow bitterness or resentment to
S3: fester in my heart. You know, because he loves me
S3: and he wants me to have that peace of mind.
S3: And it also prompted me to look back over my
S3: life and forgive things that happened in my childhood that
S3: I had just kind of stuffed away and tried to ignore.
S3: So it was really, in some ways, life changing for
S3: me to write this book. And forgiveness is now on
S3: the front burner for me, and I want to practice
S3: it as a way of life. Yeah.
S6: You know, we discussed this somewhat earlier, but but I'd
S6: like your comments on it. You know, how do we
S6: respond to the idea that that true forgiveness must always
S6: result in restoration of a broken relationship, which we've just mentioned?
S6: But how do you how do you respond to that?
S6: How would you respond to that?
S3: Well, my concept of forgiveness before I wrote this book
S3: was that forgiveness should always result in restoring a relationship.
S3: And of course, that's the ideal. You know, that would
S3: be the best case scenario. But what I now caution
S3: people about is that it's not always possible, and it's
S3: not always safe to just jump right back into a
S3: relationship that has been in some way, physically abusive or
S3: emotionally abusive or involved addiction or some other very serious problem.
S3: It's always right to forgive that person who has harmed you.
S3: And it's never, you know, the wrong thing to do
S3: to practice that one sided forgiveness. But it's it's not
S3: always wise to immediately open your life back up to
S3: that person. You know, bottom line, I guess you could
S3: say forgiveness is not glue. You know, it does not
S3: always automatically glue relationships back together, at least not in
S3: some cases without, you know, maybe some kind of professional
S3: help and support. That's the the, the world we live
S3: in and the practical aspects of this topic, I think.
S7: Yeah.
S6: Debbie, how would you answer this question if a person says,
S6: how do I know if I have a forgiveness problem
S6: in my life? I mean, is there a test we
S6: can take or there's symptoms of unforgiveness? What do you
S6: see in that?
S3: Well, I don't know of a test.
S7: But.
S3: I think symptoms, um, might be revealed in how a
S3: person would answer a few questions for themselves, like, am
S3: I so wrapped up in the wrong that was done
S3: to me that I can't enjoy the present? Is my
S3: anger and bitterness spilling over into my other relationships? Am
S3: I losing sleep over what was said or done to me? Um,
S3: you know, and I guess the most important question would be,
S3: am I willing to ask God to help me go
S3: against my natural instinct to pay back insult for insult
S3: and evil for evil? And I would say to that person,
S3: if you're willing to take that step of obedience, I
S3: believe God will bless your efforts to forgive.
S8: Yeah.
S6: I'm guessing that some of our listeners can identify with
S6: those symptoms you gave. You know, is it keeping me
S6: from enjoying the present? Because I've seen people who just.
S6: They're living miserably, you know, it's they're not enjoying life
S6: because of what happened to them. Or it may cause them,
S6: as you said, to respond negatively to other relationships and
S6: losing sleep at night about it. Yeah. Yeah, I would
S6: think those are pretty, pretty common symptoms.
S5: Doesn't that go back to Debbie, to what you said
S5: at the beginning and the title subtitle of the book?
S5: It's this is this is freedom that you give to yourself,
S5: that if you are so wrapped up in this and
S5: it won't leave you, that there are steps that you
S5: can take to to choose to walk in freedom rather
S5: than be shackled.
S3: Yes, I'd say exactly. Yes. Exactly right.
S6: And the whole thing you brought in, of coming to
S6: God with this and asking God to help you do
S6: what doesn't come natural, you know, the natural man I
S6: deserve to be upset. I deserve to have this resentment
S6: toward them. I deserve, you know, to want to see
S6: them suffer, you know. But asking God to help us,
S6: to be able to release them to him in that sense,
S6: for forgiving them, knowing that they're not going to have
S6: a relationship with God if they don't repent, you know,
S6: and God forgives them. But, uh, making that choice to
S6: put them in God's hands rather than being the judge
S6: and the and the jury and the the one that's
S6: going to make them suffer. In Romans 12 says, God said,
S6: that's my job. Don't don't you don't you do that.
S6: It's my job. You know. So. Wow.
S5: Okay, I have another question for you, Debbie. And that
S5: is I hear this an awful lot. I just can't
S5: forgive myself. I, I can't forgive myself, and I have
S5: I have some opinions on that. But when you hear
S5: that phrase, forgive myself. What sparks in your heart.
S3: You know, as I was writing this book, um, I
S3: became aware of some things that I needed to forgive
S3: myself for. And I have a section in the book
S3: that talks about that. I don't specifically have a lot
S3: of advice about that, except to just get quiet, get
S3: alone with God, pour out your heart, and have empathy
S3: for yourself. You know, what was the circumstance when that happened? What?
S3: How old were you in my situation? Um, being a
S3: very young child or a teenager had something to do with.
S3: What kind of toolkit did I have at that point
S3: in my life? What was I really capable of? Why
S3: did I fail? It's not always as dire as I think.
S3: We're hard on ourselves. So I'd say empathy, confession. You know,
S3: treat it just like you're forgiving anybody else. But you
S3: have inside information about the empathy part.
S6: How would you forget? How would you do that, Chris?
S5: Forgive yourself. The way I the way I frame it
S5: is if God has forgiven me. If he says this
S5: is what he says, you know, Jesus paid it all.
S5: He he took my penalty for all the sins that
S5: I've I've committed. If that really is true, then forgiving
S5: myself is believing that what he said is true is
S5: true because I often think of God as looking over
S5: the portals of heaven, arms crossed, shaking his head. Oh,
S5: you know, you're such a loser. You know, you're just
S5: you can't do anything. And it's like, no God. God
S5: doesn't look at me that way when I'm in Christ,
S5: when I have the forgiveness on me, then I can
S5: look at myself that way as well. Not to let
S5: everything slide. You know I'm good. But for those things
S5: that wrap me up, then I keep coming back to
S5: me about the mistakes that I've made. I can say,
S5: you know what? This I want to believe what God
S5: says about me rather than what I feel about myself
S5: right now. What do you say about that, Gary?
S6: Yeah, that makes sense to me. I think if you know,
S6: if a holy God can forgive us, then we can
S6: forgive ourselves. That doesn't mean that we won't have thoughts
S6: of regret. Okay. Yeah. That we wish we hadn't done that.
S6: But we can't undo the past, you know? But we
S6: can forgive the past. Debbie, in the book, you mention
S6: the idea of heroic forgiveness. What makes one act of
S6: forgiveness more heroic than another?
S3: Well, that's my term. So I don't know how how
S3: much credibility there is. But to me, Heroic forgiveness is
S3: when someone chooses to forgive a wrong that has taken
S3: something precious from them that they can never get back.
S3: To me, it's heroic because it's the ultimate expression of
S3: forgiveness as an act of the will, because you're probably
S3: enduring heartbreaking emotions. And I, I have a story in
S3: the book that talks about, you know, an example of that.
S3: A couple of examples, actually, in the book. One of
S3: them is about the story of a woman named Marcy. Um,
S3: her mother was murdered in her own home by someone
S3: she was renting a room to. And it was a
S3: really brutal, horrific murder. And it brought to an abrupt
S3: end one of Marcy's closest and dearest relationships, which, of course,
S3: was her mom. And so every time she thought about
S3: what her mom had endured and what an awesome and
S3: sweet and kind person her mother was. She was just
S3: frozen in unforgiveness and thoughts of revenge for for years.
S3: And after a long time of agonizing in prayer, she
S3: was finally able to separate her emotional devastation from the need.
S3: You know, God's desire for her to forgive. And so
S3: she laid it down. She laid down her resentment and
S3: her anger, and she made a choice to do what
S3: I'm calling heroic forgiveness. And what she told me was,
S3: when I did that, I had a burden lifted off
S3: me because I felt this is what God wanted me
S3: to do. So forgiveness is sometimes really, really hard, but
S3: it's still something God wants us to do.
S8: Yeah.
S6: Rather than carrying all that burden on our hearts and
S6: all that anger inside of us. Yeah. Turn it over
S6: to God. Wow. You believe that one of God's rules
S6: for his children is to always forgive? Uh, this is
S6: not an optional choice. Why do you say that?
S3: Well, I say that because in Matthew chapter 18, Jesus
S3: uses this story to teach his followers about forgiveness, and
S3: he ends the story by telling them, you must forgive
S3: your brother or sister with all your heart. Or my
S3: heavenly father will not forgive you. So he was not
S3: talking about our eternal salvation, you know. He was not
S3: talking about that because that's something that can never be
S3: taken from us. His point was that God is always
S3: willing to forgive us, but only if we forgive others.
S3: It's about lordship. It's about, are you willing to do
S3: this hard thing that I'm asking you to do? Because
S3: God cares about unity among believers, and he cares about
S3: the climate, the emotional climate in our hearts, you know,
S3: like we've talked about already. So, you know, some people
S3: can do that very quickly. And, Doctor Chapman, I heard
S3: you say that you're one of them, which is awesome. Um,
S3: other people like Marcy are so devastated by an offense,
S3: you know, that for a while. And for her, it
S3: was a long while. That emotional pain kept her from forgiving.
S3: But however long it takes us to forgive, what's clear
S3: from the story that Jesus told is that at some point,
S3: each of us is able to choose to forgive, and
S3: that God does require us to do it. Yeah. And,
S3: you know, it's good to keep in mind. Why is that?
S3: It's because he wants us to have that inner peace
S3: and freedom from the toxic effects of unforgiveness. And, you know,
S3: once again, that's where the title of the book comes from.
S3: It is the choice that sets you free.
S6: Absolutely. We've been talking the whole time about our forgiving
S6: other people. But what if I'm the person who has
S6: hurt someone? And that would be all of us at
S6: some juncture or another. I've hurt the other person, you know.
S6: I've sinned against them or I've hurt them in some
S6: way that may not be a moral thing, but have
S6: hurt them deeply. And I need forgiveness of that relationship.
S6: What do I need to be keeping in mind about
S6: how to deal with my own failures?
S3: Such a good question. We live in a fallen world,
S3: and just as you know, it's hard to go through
S3: life without someone hurting us, we hurt other people even
S3: when we don't mean to. When you're the one that
S3: needs to be forgiven, I can tell you from personal experience,
S3: it's humbling and maybe a bit intimidating to ask for forgiveness,
S3: but it's always the right thing to do. Again, Jesus
S3: affirmed this in in the Bible in Matthew chapter five,
S3: he tells us, and I'll just read the quote. If
S3: you are offering your gift at the altar and there,
S3: remember that your brother or sister has something against you.
S3: Leave your gift there in front of the altar. First,
S3: go and be reconciled to them, and then come and
S3: offer your gift. To say that another way, if we
S3: know that we've hurt or offended another believer, God really
S3: doesn't even want our gifts until we've asked that person
S3: to forgive us and made an effort to reconcile with them.
S3: Our our unity with other people is so important to God.
S3: So when we're in the wrong, you know it pleases God.
S3: When we reach out in humility and ask for forgiveness,
S3: you know, right along with that, the the thing to
S3: remember that is comforting, I think, is that sometimes people
S3: arrive at forgiveness slowly. If you ask for forgiveness, but
S3: that person isn't ready to forgive you. It doesn't mean
S3: they won't change their mind at some point, especially if
S3: you're praying for that to happen. Um, I'm thinking about
S3: Paul's words in Romans as far as it depends on
S3: you live at peace with everyone. So when you ask
S3: someone forgiveness and they don't want to forgive you, you
S3: have done what you can to restore the unity and
S3: you can feel good about that regardless of the outcome.
S5: Debbie, earlier you mentioned childhood hurts that you needed to
S5: work through, and my guess is there probably were some
S5: people who are no longer living that you had to forgive.
S5: Can you just say a word about that for our listeners?
S3: Yeah, you're exactly right. Several people from my childhood years
S3: are no longer alive. And so when these hurts came
S3: to mind, this book had a way of making me
S3: kind of make sure that I had all my bases
S3: covered and going back through my life. There were several
S3: things that happened when I was really young adults, including
S3: teachers at school. None of these people are still living.
S3: And so keeping with the whole idea of that type
S3: of forgiveness that's just within your own heart and mind,
S3: it didn't really matter that they were no longer living.
S3: It was what I was harboring and the hurt I
S3: was nursing every time I thought about it that needed
S3: to be dealt with before the Lord. And so I
S3: did that. And, um. Those things are in his hands now.
S3: They're over. And I don't have to experience any more
S3: pain because of those things being forgiven now and long gone.
S6: So we don't force the person to forgiveness or preach
S6: them a sermon. The Bible says you're supposed to forgive.
S6: I can hear a husband saying that to a wife.
S6: You know.
S3: I can hear that, too.
S7: It's not good.
S6: Well, Debbie, uh, thanks for being with us today. You
S6: and I have a long relationship, having written books together
S6: on other topics, and. But this book that you've written,
S6: I think, is going to help a lot of people
S6: with this whole issue of forgiveness, because there's so much
S6: misunderstanding about this in our world today, especially among Christians. So,
S6: so thanks for taking time to write the book. And
S6: thanks for being with us today.
S3: Oh, Gary, my pleasure. Thank you for allowing me to
S3: to be with you and Chris today.
S5: My guess is that this program has hit you right
S5: in the heart at some point somewhere. And if Debbie
S5: is right, there is real freedom here for you. Her
S5: book is titled Forgiveness The Choice That Sets You Free.
S5: You can find it at Building relationships.us. Again, go to
S5: building relationships.us.
S6: And next week help for wives who want sexual intimacy
S6: more than their husbands.
S4: Don't miss the conversation in one week. Our thanks to
S4: our team behind the scenes Steve Wick and Janice. Backing
S4: building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of
S4: Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a
S4: ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.