1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 S1: Hi friends, thanks so much for downloading this podcast and 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,480 S1: I hope truly that you will hear something that will encourage, edify, 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,160 S1: equip and enlighten you to get out there and influence 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,880 S1: and occupy until he comes. And on that note, may 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,760 S1: I take just a few moments here to describe this 6 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,800 S1: month's truth tool? It's by pastor Jack Hibbs. He's written 7 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,599 S1: the book called Called to Take a Bold Stand. I 8 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,480 S1: absolutely love this book because it reminds us that in Christ, 9 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,480 S1: all things pass away, all things become new, that we 10 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,200 S1: are standing for his truth, that we have a new nature. 11 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,080 S1: Because of him, we should be living boldly. But far 12 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,120 S1: too often we retreat out of fear from cultural blowback. 13 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,600 S1: So I want to encourage all of us to just 14 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,800 S1: stand up for Christ, to be unashamed of who we 15 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,080 S1: are in him, and to go into a culture that's 16 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,600 S1: telling us in no uncertain terms they're lost and they're hurting. 17 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,720 S1: So if you'd like a copy of Pastor Hibbs new 18 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,400 S1: book called Call to Take a Bold Stand, just give 19 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,519 S1: a gift of any amount by calling 877 Janet 58. 20 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,000 S1: We are listener supported radio and this is my way 21 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,160 S1: of saying thank you. So that number again is 877 22 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,710 S1: Janet 58. Or you can go online in the market 23 00:00:59,710 --> 00:01:02,950 S1: with Janet Parshall. Go to the bottom of the page. 24 00:01:02,950 --> 00:01:05,630 S1: There's the cover of Pastor Jack's book, click it on, 25 00:01:05,630 --> 00:01:07,350 S1: give a gift and you'll be good to go. And 26 00:01:07,350 --> 00:01:08,790 S1: we'll send you a copy as a way of saying 27 00:01:08,790 --> 00:01:11,670 S1: thank you. Don't forget, you can also become a partial partner. 28 00:01:11,670 --> 00:01:13,870 S1: Those are people who give every single month at a 29 00:01:13,870 --> 00:01:16,110 S1: level of their own choosing. My way of saying thank 30 00:01:16,110 --> 00:01:17,830 S1: you to the partial partners is to make sure you 31 00:01:17,830 --> 00:01:20,350 S1: get a copy of each month's truth tool, and you 32 00:01:20,350 --> 00:01:22,910 S1: get our weekly newsletter, which includes some of my writing 33 00:01:22,910 --> 00:01:25,830 S1: and an audio piece only for my partial partners. So 34 00:01:25,830 --> 00:01:27,510 S1: whether it's a one time gift or you want to 35 00:01:27,510 --> 00:01:29,870 S1: be an ongoing giver and become a partial partner, that's 36 00:01:29,870 --> 00:01:31,870 S1: your call. But I want to thank you in advance. 37 00:01:31,870 --> 00:01:36,270 S1: Eight 7758 or online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. 38 00:01:37,110 --> 00:01:39,150 S1: Now please enjoy the broadcast. 39 00:01:40,750 --> 00:01:42,270 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 40 00:01:42,550 --> 00:01:44,910 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 41 00:01:44,950 --> 00:01:47,069 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 42 00:01:47,310 --> 00:01:50,750 S5: Extremely rare safety move by a 17 years. 43 00:01:50,750 --> 00:01:52,830 S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 44 00:01:53,070 --> 00:02:09,420 S5: Today is not. Hi, friends. 45 00:02:09,419 --> 00:02:11,700 S1: Welcome to In the Market with Janet partial. Thank you 46 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:14,060 S1: so much for joining me this hour. And get ready. 47 00:02:14,340 --> 00:02:16,620 S1: This is one of those conversations designed to get you 48 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:20,100 S1: to be thinking critically and biblically, and let the record reflect. 49 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:22,780 S1: Your honor, that is not a multiple choice test. It 50 00:02:22,780 --> 00:02:25,100 S1: is not an either or. It is a both end. 51 00:02:25,139 --> 00:02:27,220 S1: You come to faith in Christ. Your heart is transformed. 52 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:29,740 S1: Your mind is renewed. How do I know that? Because 53 00:02:29,740 --> 00:02:34,020 S1: the Bible tells me so. Oh well, there's the sticky wicket. 54 00:02:34,020 --> 00:02:36,380 S1: And that's exactly what we're going to talk about this hour. 55 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:39,660 S1: Is it really the good book? I mean, I can 56 00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:41,900 S1: tell you here in Washington, DC, where we have more 57 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:44,739 S1: PhDs per capita than any other city in the nation, 58 00:02:45,380 --> 00:02:46,900 S1: we've got a lot of people who will go on 59 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:50,780 S1: national television or national radio and say, no, the Bible 60 00:02:50,780 --> 00:02:54,340 S1: is filled with errors. It was written by ignorant Bedouins. 61 00:02:54,340 --> 00:02:56,450 S1: It was passed down through an oral tradition. so you 62 00:02:56,450 --> 00:02:59,250 S1: can imagine how many mistakes there are. Uh, it can't 63 00:02:59,250 --> 00:03:01,570 S1: be perfect. It's a book of rules. I can't possibly 64 00:03:01,570 --> 00:03:05,290 S1: fill them. I'm not interested. It conflicts itself continuously, and 65 00:03:05,290 --> 00:03:09,730 S1: it just absolutely repels people from digging. Digging deeper into 66 00:03:09,730 --> 00:03:12,370 S1: the Word of God and discovering who Jesus is. Because 67 00:03:12,370 --> 00:03:14,850 S1: that is, after all, what the entire Bible is all about. 68 00:03:15,090 --> 00:03:16,690 S1: So that's what we're going to talk about. And I 69 00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:21,130 S1: found this brilliant book that really challenges some of the 70 00:03:21,130 --> 00:03:24,250 S1: thinking about what people think about the Bible. In fact, 71 00:03:24,290 --> 00:03:26,450 S1: it's been a long time since I and you can 72 00:03:26,450 --> 00:03:29,450 S1: imagine I reviewed just a few gazillion books every week. 73 00:03:29,730 --> 00:03:32,090 S1: How many times I've looked for a book that really 74 00:03:32,090 --> 00:03:34,690 S1: is a succinct, apologetic, and defense of the Bible. And 75 00:03:34,690 --> 00:03:37,570 S1: that's really what this book is. But it's brilliantly done, 76 00:03:37,570 --> 00:03:40,130 S1: because it answers some of the main objections that people 77 00:03:40,130 --> 00:03:43,810 S1: have to Scripture. And it's written well and it's written comprehensively, 78 00:03:43,810 --> 00:03:47,170 S1: and it's written with a strong understanding of how you 79 00:03:47,170 --> 00:03:50,170 S1: if these are your questions and questions are great. It's 80 00:03:50,170 --> 00:03:53,330 S1: the beginning of exploration, and exploration is the beginning of discovery. 81 00:03:53,330 --> 00:03:55,530 S1: And discovery might lead you to the foot of the cross. 82 00:03:55,530 --> 00:03:58,050 S1: So I think those questions are great, but I don't 83 00:03:58,050 --> 00:04:01,010 S1: want you to get stuck because very often people will say, well, 84 00:04:01,010 --> 00:04:02,730 S1: the Bible says and you dig a little bit deeper, 85 00:04:02,730 --> 00:04:05,410 S1: like maybe two sentences into their apologetic and you find 86 00:04:05,410 --> 00:04:07,290 S1: out they've never read the Bible at all. It's a 87 00:04:07,290 --> 00:04:10,450 S1: lot of hearsay, gossip and, uh, you know, rumors. So 88 00:04:10,450 --> 00:04:12,330 S1: we're going to unpack a lot of that for this 89 00:04:12,330 --> 00:04:15,530 S1: wonderful new book called Is It Really the Good Book 90 00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:19,970 S1: Restoring Your Faith in the Bible by Questioning your assumptions 91 00:04:19,970 --> 00:04:22,930 S1: about it? It's co-authored by John Merritt and Shawn Wicks, 92 00:04:22,930 --> 00:04:24,650 S1: and Shawn is going to spend the hour with me 93 00:04:24,650 --> 00:04:27,250 S1: this hour. He's a pastor and author and a ministry 94 00:04:27,250 --> 00:04:30,169 S1: leader in Southern California. He serves as vice president of 95 00:04:30,170 --> 00:04:33,930 S1: the Southern California Bible Conference, directing camps and retreats at 96 00:04:33,930 --> 00:04:37,130 S1: Verdugo Pines Bible Camp. He's a graduate of Talbot School 97 00:04:37,130 --> 00:04:40,849 S1: of Theology. He's the co-author of Before You Go Uncovering 98 00:04:40,850 --> 00:04:44,010 S1: Hidden Factors in Faith loss, and he has served as 99 00:04:44,010 --> 00:04:47,690 S1: a youth minister and cross-cultural ministry trainer for quite some time. 100 00:04:47,690 --> 00:04:50,250 S1: And he joins us today. Shawn, the warmest of welcomes. 101 00:04:50,250 --> 00:04:52,650 S1: I am so glad you're here. You know, my the 102 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:54,719 S1: reason I'm glad I took the time to read a 103 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,360 S1: little bit longer biography of who you are is because 104 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,360 S1: I would imagine that a lot of the questions that 105 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,480 S1: you address in the book are emanating right out of 106 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,159 S1: a generation that is asking these kinds of questions. I'm 107 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,520 S1: concerned because there are people I love following. As an example, 108 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,560 S1: before I ask the question, I love following people like 109 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,880 S1: George Barna and the work he does at the Cultural 110 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,640 S1: Research Center at Arizona Christian University, and the data that 111 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,440 S1: he puts out on Americans and biblical literacy slash illiteracy, 112 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,360 S1: and even people who make a profession of faith in 113 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,440 S1: Christ as their Lord and Savior, are absolutely befuddled about 114 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,720 S1: what it says in Scripture. It's full of errors. Jesus 115 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,839 S1: in the Trinity is undefinable and unknowable, and the Holy 116 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,880 S1: Spirit isn't a true entity, and neither is Satan. And 117 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,000 S1: these are people who make a profession of faith. And 118 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,960 S1: then I had the opportunity recently of talking to Doctor 119 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,440 S1: Arnie Cole, who's the president and CEO of back to 120 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,839 S1: the Bible. And while we have this interesting cultural phenomenon 121 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,919 S1: of the uptick, uptick in Bible sales, 20 year rise 122 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,320 S1: in the Bible sales, one would think, oh, that's great. 123 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,470 S1: It's indicative of spiritual revival, of an internal kind of 124 00:05:53,510 --> 00:05:57,270 S1: quest for knowledge. And yet, Ani points out, there's a 125 00:05:57,270 --> 00:06:01,029 S1: distinction between purchasing a Bible and letting it transform your life. 126 00:06:01,150 --> 00:06:02,950 S1: And part of that, I think, might be what we're 127 00:06:02,950 --> 00:06:06,070 S1: going to talk about this hour, which is this misunderstanding and, 128 00:06:06,070 --> 00:06:08,430 S1: if you will, subscription to a mythology about what the 129 00:06:08,430 --> 00:06:11,029 S1: Bible is rather than what the Bible does say. So 130 00:06:11,029 --> 00:06:13,430 S1: thank you for being here. And I'll go back full 131 00:06:13,430 --> 00:06:15,990 S1: circle to where I was saying it before. Was this 132 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:18,070 S1: a crisis of faith that you ever suffered, or is 133 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:20,029 S1: it because you've been listening to the people that God 134 00:06:20,029 --> 00:06:21,150 S1: has brought into your life? 135 00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:25,669 S6: Well, to answer that, I'd have to say it was both. 136 00:06:26,350 --> 00:06:30,550 S6: I've had questions about the Bible verses that have popped 137 00:06:30,550 --> 00:06:34,270 S6: up in throughout reading it, and it bugged me through time. 138 00:06:34,310 --> 00:06:36,989 S6: I mean, I'm a pastor, but I see the verses there, 139 00:06:36,990 --> 00:06:40,230 S6: and when I hear other people question and talk about them, 140 00:06:40,270 --> 00:06:42,390 S6: of course it starts to to weigh on you too. 141 00:06:42,430 --> 00:06:43,910 S6: And of course, a lot of this goes back to 142 00:06:43,950 --> 00:06:46,150 S6: my younger years, but I had a lot of questions 143 00:06:46,150 --> 00:06:48,070 S6: and I was afraid to ask them, or I was 144 00:06:48,070 --> 00:06:52,500 S6: afraid to bring them up, that someone might consider me 145 00:06:52,820 --> 00:06:56,060 S6: stepping away or something like that. Um, the fact is, 146 00:06:56,100 --> 00:06:59,300 S6: is everyone is asking these questions today with the internet 147 00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:03,020 S6: and with so easy access to knowledge out there, whether 148 00:07:03,020 --> 00:07:07,779 S6: it's right or wrong. People are asking these questions and 149 00:07:07,779 --> 00:07:13,380 S6: it's affecting our youth. Uh, I have a dear family member. Uh, 150 00:07:13,380 --> 00:07:17,180 S6: this is where the whole book sprang from. And John 151 00:07:17,180 --> 00:07:20,580 S6: has witnessed the same thing in his research, but he 152 00:07:21,980 --> 00:07:26,260 S6: I we met for a afternoon, um, to for around 153 00:07:26,260 --> 00:07:29,020 S6: Thanksgiving time, and it was our tradition. And every year 154 00:07:29,020 --> 00:07:31,340 S6: he was coming back. He was falling farther and farther 155 00:07:31,340 --> 00:07:34,540 S6: away from the faith, we could tell. And one of 156 00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:36,300 S6: my good friends was sitting there, and he just called 157 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:39,380 S6: him on it and kind of, you know, awkward silence 158 00:07:39,380 --> 00:07:41,060 S6: as he said, do you even believe in God anymore? 159 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:43,700 S6: Because the way he was answering questions and talking about things, 160 00:07:43,700 --> 00:07:45,900 S6: we we were getting the gist and we saw it 161 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:48,850 S6: coming year after year, and he said No, he said. 162 00:07:48,850 --> 00:07:51,970 S6: He paused. You know, nervous. But then he said, no, 163 00:07:52,010 --> 00:07:54,130 S6: I don't know how anybody can believe in God, because 164 00:07:54,130 --> 00:07:56,050 S6: the only reason we would believe in God or Jesus 165 00:07:56,050 --> 00:07:58,610 S6: is because of the Bible, and the Bible is a 166 00:07:58,610 --> 00:08:00,770 S6: bunch of nonsense and a bunch of fairy tales. 167 00:08:01,010 --> 00:08:01,370 S1: Wow. 168 00:08:01,410 --> 00:08:04,050 S6: And yeah, and that's a family member. It hit me 169 00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:06,810 S6: to the core and I said, a bunch of fairy tales. 170 00:08:06,970 --> 00:08:08,970 S6: I said, you read the newspaper. You don't call that 171 00:08:08,970 --> 00:08:11,290 S6: a fairy tale. And I said, the Bible is not 172 00:08:11,290 --> 00:08:13,530 S6: written like a fairy tale. It's a totally different type 173 00:08:13,530 --> 00:08:16,650 S6: of book. What would make you say that? And he's like, well, 174 00:08:17,210 --> 00:08:20,370 S6: and and he responded a little bit. We went back 175 00:08:20,370 --> 00:08:21,770 S6: and forth. I got up to go get a drink, 176 00:08:21,770 --> 00:08:23,650 S6: and he followed me and he said, you know why? 177 00:08:24,210 --> 00:08:25,970 S6: Because the Bible promotes slavery. 178 00:08:26,530 --> 00:08:27,010 S1: Mhm. 179 00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:31,610 S6: And I was like, excuse me. No it doesn't. And my, 180 00:08:32,210 --> 00:08:35,010 S6: you know, apologetic side, I quickly gave him some proof 181 00:08:35,050 --> 00:08:38,170 S6: text that show that that's wrong. That's a wrong way 182 00:08:38,170 --> 00:08:40,050 S6: to look at the Bible. And I showed him verses 183 00:08:40,050 --> 00:08:43,569 S6: where it says that kidnapping is wrong and enslavers are 184 00:08:43,570 --> 00:08:46,490 S6: equated to murderers. And I showed him those verses, but 185 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,640 S6: it didn't even make a dent. And he looked at 186 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,600 S6: me and he said, yeah, but the Bible says, slaves 187 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,959 S6: obey your masters. Why doesn't it just say slavery is wrong? 188 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,640 S6: And it hit me. This is my college educated, uh, cousin, 189 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:04,600 S6: and he is brilliant. He's a smart guy, and he 190 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,280 S6: had no idea how far that he was interpreting scripture wrong. 191 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:08,880 S5: Yeah. 192 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,600 S1: You know, I think that's precious, that the Lord allowed 193 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,240 S1: that conversation to become a catalyst for a book that 194 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,240 S1: is really going to answer those kinds of questions. And 195 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,000 S1: what you do beautifully in the book is you break 196 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,160 S1: down so many of these myths and give us some 197 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,760 S1: really studied responses. So I'm glad that you're here. Thank 198 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,800 S1: you for writing the book. Thank you for telling me 199 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,560 S1: the story of the catalyst. Thank you for having a 200 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,520 S1: heart that was responsive. So we're going to take a 201 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,200 S1: break and come back and we're going to dive into this. 202 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,880 S1: The book is called Is It Really the Good Book? 203 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,400 S1: And then here's the subtitle, Restoring Your Faith in the 204 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,040 S1: Bible by questioning your assumptions about it. Back after this. 205 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,360 S1: The Bible calls us to be bold and courageous for 206 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,360 S1: the cause of the cross, but too often we retreat 207 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,240 S1: because of fear of cultural blowback. That's why I've chosen 208 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,720 S1: Call to Take a bold stand as this month's truth tool. 209 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,040 S1: Discover how to overcome the fear of intimidation or persecution. 210 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,360 S1: As for your copy of Call to Take a Bold Stand, 211 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:01,840 S1: when you give a gift of any amount to in 212 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,559 S1: the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 213 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,880 S1: or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. We 214 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,280 S1: get to spend the hour with Sean Wicks, who's a pastor, 215 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,400 S1: a ministry leader in Southern California and an author, and 216 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,600 S1: he joins us as the co-author of the new book, 217 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,880 S1: Is It Really the Good Book Restoring Your Faith in 218 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,560 S1: the Bible by questioning your assumptions about it? And you 219 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,800 S1: laid the book out in really two sections, and I'm 220 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,880 S1: so glad you did it this way. First, you kind 221 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,720 S1: of do the background. I kind of fly over at 35,000ft, 222 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,199 S1: and I want to spend just a few minutes there, 223 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,360 S1: just kind of a backdrop to our conversation. And the 224 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,720 S1: rest of the book is spent undoing these false assumptions. Now, 225 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,360 S1: fair warning to my friends. You hear me say this 226 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,310 S1: all the time, particularly in books that I really, really love. 227 00:10:44,309 --> 00:10:46,390 S1: And this is one of those books. This is not 228 00:10:46,390 --> 00:10:48,270 S1: a book report. This is not a fireside chat. It's 229 00:10:48,270 --> 00:10:50,270 S1: just to get you to start thinking along the lines 230 00:10:50,270 --> 00:10:52,750 S1: on this topic. And there is no way I'm going 231 00:10:52,750 --> 00:10:55,150 S1: to get to all eight of these assumptions. And that's 232 00:10:55,150 --> 00:10:57,830 S1: a good thing, because whatever we talk about, great. That's 233 00:10:57,830 --> 00:10:59,910 S1: just the tip of the iceberg. What we didn't get to. 234 00:10:59,950 --> 00:11:01,550 S1: That's why you need to get the book. So there 235 00:11:01,550 --> 00:11:03,589 S1: you go. There's my spiel. So let me go to 236 00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:05,790 S1: the flyover and ask a question early on in the book. 237 00:11:05,790 --> 00:11:07,750 S1: That is great. What is the Bible? Why did we 238 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:08,310 S1: get it? 239 00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:12,750 S6: First, let me say thank you for having me on 240 00:11:12,750 --> 00:11:15,510 S6: your show. My manners there. You got me so excited 241 00:11:15,510 --> 00:11:20,070 S6: with that first question, but, uh, my mom, my mom 242 00:11:20,070 --> 00:11:22,030 S6: and my my dad would be horrified to know that 243 00:11:22,030 --> 00:11:24,030 S6: I did not say thank you so. But anyway, thank 244 00:11:24,030 --> 00:11:25,310 S6: you for having me on. 245 00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:26,429 S1: You are most welcome. 246 00:11:27,390 --> 00:11:30,310 S6: Yeah. As for the the flyover on the on on 247 00:11:30,350 --> 00:11:34,870 S6: the Bible, we realize how many, how few people actually 248 00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:37,910 S6: truly understand what the the Bible is. They understand that 249 00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:41,030 S6: it might be this inspired word of God, but they 250 00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:45,060 S6: don't understand it at a at a more fundamental level. 251 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:48,020 S6: And so on. The flyover we talk about that the 252 00:11:48,020 --> 00:11:52,820 S6: Bible is actually it's a collection of books. It's full 253 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:59,620 S6: of poetry. It's full of history. It's full of testimony 254 00:11:59,620 --> 00:12:03,260 S6: in the Gospels. It's full of letters. Um, all of 255 00:12:03,260 --> 00:12:06,580 S6: those things and little wisdom sayings and all of that 256 00:12:06,580 --> 00:12:08,939 S6: matters in the end. Because if you just treat the 257 00:12:08,940 --> 00:12:11,980 S6: the book as the Bible, as like this single book, 258 00:12:12,820 --> 00:12:14,500 S6: then you're going to miss out on the fact that 259 00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:17,540 S6: there's these different, uh, ways of writing and different ways 260 00:12:17,540 --> 00:12:20,740 S6: of experiencing God. And if that's how you approach the Bible, 261 00:12:20,740 --> 00:12:23,380 S6: you're going to do what causes a lot of people 262 00:12:23,380 --> 00:12:25,380 S6: to walk away. You're going to misunderstand it. You're going 263 00:12:25,380 --> 00:12:28,100 S6: to misapply it, you're going to misinterpret it, uh, because 264 00:12:28,100 --> 00:12:30,820 S6: you're not taking in the fact that the Bible is 265 00:12:30,820 --> 00:12:35,380 S6: not this single one book. Um, it is a collection 266 00:12:35,380 --> 00:12:39,860 S6: of books. That collection of books is eventually come to 267 00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:42,770 S6: be known as the Bible as kind of a single unit. 268 00:12:43,170 --> 00:12:46,410 S6: This anthology becomes kind of a single unit, and it's 269 00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:48,130 S6: for that reason we all, and we find out when 270 00:12:48,130 --> 00:12:51,330 S6: it's all kind of put together, it ends up telling 271 00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:55,410 S6: one story, and that's great. We call that salvation history, 272 00:12:56,290 --> 00:12:58,650 S6: but that allows us to to also understand that the 273 00:12:58,650 --> 00:13:02,050 S6: Bible has a this overarching story and that helps our 274 00:13:02,850 --> 00:13:05,209 S6: understanding of the Bible as well. So it's both it's 275 00:13:05,250 --> 00:13:10,130 S6: both a collection, but it's also a united story. And 276 00:13:10,130 --> 00:13:12,650 S6: the reason why it's united is because it's about the 277 00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:16,770 S6: the greatest person in, in, in history. And that's God himself. 278 00:13:16,770 --> 00:13:20,570 S6: It's about Yahweh. And we follow and his relationship with man. 279 00:13:20,570 --> 00:13:23,570 S6: And it starts with verse Genesis one one to revelation. 280 00:13:23,570 --> 00:13:28,170 S6: And even though he's not mentioned everywhere in Scripture, he 281 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:31,770 S6: is the the overarching. He's the shadow that he shadows everything. 282 00:13:31,770 --> 00:13:35,010 S6: He's everywhere. Even in Esther, where he's not mentioned, he 283 00:13:35,010 --> 00:13:37,530 S6: is the guiding force in that book. He is what 284 00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:40,320 S6: brings all the books together and ties them together and 285 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,680 S6: his love for mankind. And, uh, that's in general, quickly. 286 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,360 S6: I mean, I can't go into all the details that 287 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,360 S6: we do in the book, but that's that is what 288 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,800 S6: the Bible, the the Bible is. 289 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,160 S1: Yeah, that's a great answer, Sean. Thank you for that. 290 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,840 S1: So it raises and I could linger on the backdrop, 291 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,440 S1: but I do want to get to some of the assumptions, 292 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:58,720 S1: but I'm not going to leave until I get a 293 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,920 S1: couple of other questions answered. So John 316 is so simple, 294 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,360 S1: a child can understand it. But when you start getting 295 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,880 S1: into eschatology Angelology numerology, all of these studies that are 296 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,319 S1: there as well, it's not as easy. So he raises 297 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,360 S1: the question that if God wants us to come to 298 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,080 S1: him and that our faith, it's so easily understood about 299 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,200 S1: how we can come to faith in Christ through Jesus. Um, 300 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,640 S1: we would say that's not difficult at all. But when 301 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,400 S1: we start getting into the word, it gets tough. It's 302 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,480 S1: not necessarily an easy book for people to read. And 303 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,720 S1: then you have to decide what is the manner and 304 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,320 S1: style of this? Is this poetry, is this allegory, is 305 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:40,790 S1: this history? Is this chronology? Is this, um, um, genealogy? 306 00:14:40,830 --> 00:14:42,310 S1: I mean, the list goes on and on and on. 307 00:14:42,510 --> 00:14:45,150 S1: That raises a question. God loves us. He's not willing 308 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:47,590 S1: that any should perish. Excuse me, but that all should 309 00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:50,990 S1: come to repentance. So why? I hate to say this 310 00:14:50,990 --> 00:14:53,830 S1: because I subscribe to Allan Bloom's idea. The closing of 311 00:14:53,830 --> 00:14:57,150 S1: the American Mind. We've done nothing but dumbing down Americans 312 00:14:57,150 --> 00:15:00,390 S1: for decades, and the church has not fallen out of that. 313 00:15:00,390 --> 00:15:03,230 S1: We are dumbing down constantly, and it's an embarrassment. I 314 00:15:03,230 --> 00:15:04,990 S1: want to raise the bar. We need a higher view 315 00:15:04,990 --> 00:15:07,110 S1: of God and a deeper view of Scripture. But to 316 00:15:07,150 --> 00:15:09,270 S1: those who say, well, why didn't God just make it simpler? 317 00:15:09,270 --> 00:15:12,670 S1: Why isn't it salvation for dummies rather than 66 books 318 00:15:12,670 --> 00:15:16,430 S1: that are have all of these epochs and series and 319 00:15:16,430 --> 00:15:18,670 S1: family stories? Why didn't he make it simpler? How would 320 00:15:18,670 --> 00:15:19,310 S1: we respond? 321 00:15:20,670 --> 00:15:25,230 S6: That's a great question. And first we have dumbed down. 322 00:15:25,230 --> 00:15:27,150 S6: And it's not just America, it's the dumbing down in 323 00:15:27,150 --> 00:15:29,910 S6: our churches. Yes, that's part of what the problem is, 324 00:15:29,950 --> 00:15:35,700 S6: is we don't teach our congregants, our people how to 325 00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:38,300 S6: study the Bible for themselves and give them the right tools. 326 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:40,940 S6: This book is more about giving you the tools than 327 00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:45,780 S6: it is about us telling you how the right answers. Um, 328 00:15:45,940 --> 00:15:50,660 S6: having the tools you you can solve issues on your own. 329 00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:53,020 S6: You can look at things. And so yeah, I totally 330 00:15:53,020 --> 00:15:56,340 S6: agree on that dumbing down of the American mind. Now 331 00:15:56,340 --> 00:16:01,380 S6: as for the the ease, yeah. God wants people to be, uh, saved. 332 00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:05,060 S6: And there's a Protestant doctrine called the purpose of. And 333 00:16:05,060 --> 00:16:07,260 S6: I know it's a it just means clarity, but the 334 00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:10,060 S6: purpose of Scripture and that means that it's clear and 335 00:16:10,060 --> 00:16:15,180 S6: it's understandable. And we believe that as Protestants and as Christians, 336 00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:17,020 S6: we believe that the Bible is understandable. But what that 337 00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:19,300 S6: doesn't mean is that that you don't have to work 338 00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:21,580 S6: to interpret it, and that you don't have to work 339 00:16:21,580 --> 00:16:25,580 S6: to understand it. And it means that it is understandable 340 00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:28,820 S6: if you put the time in to understand it. And 341 00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:32,580 S6: that's that's a lost thought on today's generation where everything 342 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:34,460 S6: is so quick and easy. I look up a meme, 343 00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:36,660 S6: I look up a I know it's just everything is 344 00:16:36,660 --> 00:16:40,460 S6: so fast. Our food is fast, our. And so it's 345 00:16:40,460 --> 00:16:42,740 S6: harder sometimes to get to the truth than it is 346 00:16:42,740 --> 00:16:45,420 S6: to believe a lie. And the lies are easy, but 347 00:16:45,420 --> 00:16:48,660 S6: the truth takes time and you have to discover it. 348 00:16:48,940 --> 00:16:52,580 S6: And so while the Bible is easy to understand, the 349 00:16:52,580 --> 00:16:58,700 S6: Bible also says that, uh, interpretation is, uh, necessary. And 350 00:16:58,740 --> 00:17:00,340 S6: there's a there's a way to go about doing that 351 00:17:00,340 --> 00:17:00,980 S6: the right way. 352 00:17:01,580 --> 00:17:04,860 S1: Yeah, exactly. Right. All right. There's so much more I could, like. 353 00:17:04,859 --> 00:17:06,700 S1: I say, I could spend the whole hour just on 354 00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:09,780 S1: the backdrop. Part of this, the Bible's impact on the world, 355 00:17:09,780 --> 00:17:12,820 S1: its influence on people, from Michelangelo to Charles Dickens, which 356 00:17:12,820 --> 00:17:14,419 S1: you write about in the book. But I'm going to 357 00:17:14,420 --> 00:17:15,859 S1: roll up my sleeves and start looking at some of 358 00:17:15,859 --> 00:17:17,699 S1: these assumptions. I'm not going to get through all of them, 359 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:19,660 S1: but I want to get through several of them, because 360 00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:21,660 S1: this might be your question. This maybe was your turn 361 00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:23,900 S1: off point. Why you walked away. You grow cold. You 362 00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:26,620 S1: fell away. Well, stick around because you're going to find 363 00:17:26,619 --> 00:17:28,460 S1: out and you're going to get the answer to, is 364 00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:46,450 S1: this really the good book back after this? Is it 365 00:17:46,450 --> 00:17:48,889 S1: really the good book, Restoring your Faith in the Bible 366 00:17:48,930 --> 00:17:51,690 S1: by questioning your assumptions about it? That's the new book 367 00:17:51,930 --> 00:17:54,890 S1: by Sean Wicks, who co-authored it along with John Merritt 368 00:17:54,890 --> 00:17:57,370 S1: and at Marriot. And it does a wonderful job of 369 00:17:57,369 --> 00:18:00,130 S1: taking a look at some of the false assumptions that 370 00:18:00,130 --> 00:18:03,090 S1: people make about the scriptures. And that's okay. We're not 371 00:18:03,090 --> 00:18:05,889 S1: castigating them. It's just a matter of lifting the shades, 372 00:18:05,890 --> 00:18:08,330 S1: opening the front door, and letting the sun shine in 373 00:18:08,490 --> 00:18:11,330 S1: and get some real good teaching in on what the 374 00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:13,169 S1: Bible has to say. For example, and this is the 375 00:18:13,170 --> 00:18:16,810 S1: very first assumption, let me record, Your Honor. For the record, 376 00:18:16,810 --> 00:18:18,729 S1: I'm not going to get to all eight, but I 377 00:18:18,730 --> 00:18:20,610 S1: thought this one was a very good one to start with, 378 00:18:20,609 --> 00:18:22,610 S1: because a lot of people will dismiss as outright by 379 00:18:22,609 --> 00:18:25,129 S1: saying it's a fairy tale, it's a book of fairy tales. 380 00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:26,970 S1: And one of the sticky wickets for me is this 381 00:18:26,970 --> 00:18:29,609 S1: whole idea about miracles. So I want to get into this. 382 00:18:29,609 --> 00:18:33,040 S1: So the idea that it's not a book of fairy 383 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,720 S1: tales is, in fact, before I go any further, you 384 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,560 S1: better explain to our friends who David Hume is because 385 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,320 S1: you reference him quite a bit in this chapter. 386 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,840 S6: Uh, yes. No, actually, this was a chapter that John 387 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,600 S6: focused on. But yeah, John wrote this chapter mostly so. 388 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,320 S6: But that being said, yes, part of David Hume's, uh, 389 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:58,400 S6: argument is that miracles are so rare and that if 390 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,920 S6: someone told you they saw a miracle, the natural instinct 391 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,240 S6: is to disbelieve it, and that would be the right decision. 392 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,080 S6: And so he kind of dismisses all miracles by by 393 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,080 S6: just coming to a conclusion that if you're going to 394 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,000 S6: say miracles exist, and then we have to you need 395 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,240 S6: a lot of evidence to prove that because miracles aren't 396 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,320 S6: common and miracles aren't, aren't normal. And John gives a 397 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,480 S6: defense on on that he really addresses, uh, how and 398 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,400 S6: that argument has actually been quite answered through different other 399 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,320 S6: Christians as well. But he gives an answer on that 400 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,230 S6: idea that miracles. It really comes from an idea of 401 00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:38,030 S6: the world we live in. We accept maybe that there's 402 00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:40,750 S6: we come to the table with an assumption that miracles 403 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:44,670 S6: don't exist. And by doing that, by by nature, we 404 00:19:44,670 --> 00:19:46,750 S6: say we need a you need a lot of evidence. 405 00:19:46,750 --> 00:19:48,310 S6: And the truth is, is you don't you just need 406 00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:51,270 S6: sufficient evidence to believe in a miracle. But if you 407 00:19:51,310 --> 00:19:54,790 S6: already start with the idea that miracles are impossible, then 408 00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:57,669 S6: when you come to that idea, um, you're going to 409 00:19:57,710 --> 00:20:00,229 S6: look at it and you're going to say, um, hey, 410 00:20:00,270 --> 00:20:02,629 S6: miracles are impossible. Therefore, you need to show me the 411 00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:05,550 S6: impossible for me to believe it. But that's not the case. 412 00:20:05,550 --> 00:20:08,149 S6: That's not how the world is. Believed it, uh, for 413 00:20:08,150 --> 00:20:10,909 S6: most of, uh, centuries going by. It's not even how 414 00:20:10,910 --> 00:20:12,750 S6: most of the world believes now. It's not even how 415 00:20:12,750 --> 00:20:15,550 S6: Americans believe. I think the last survey we read is 416 00:20:15,550 --> 00:20:19,149 S6: like 80% of 83% of Americans still believe in miracles. Yeah. 417 00:20:19,150 --> 00:20:23,870 S6: So that is a that is a a wrong approach. And, uh, 418 00:20:23,869 --> 00:20:26,430 S6: a better approach is to is to say, is there 419 00:20:26,430 --> 00:20:30,420 S6: sufficient evidence. And and here's the thing about miracles is, yeah, 420 00:20:30,460 --> 00:20:32,820 S6: as natural order goes, it is things that we don't 421 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:35,060 S6: normally see. But I think that's the wrong question, because 422 00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:38,899 S6: you can if a ball is falling off, a if 423 00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:41,580 S6: somebody throws a ball off the roof, the natural says 424 00:20:41,580 --> 00:20:44,060 S6: gravity's going to take it down, but it's going to 425 00:20:44,060 --> 00:20:46,459 S6: take it all the way down to the ground. And 426 00:20:46,460 --> 00:20:48,060 S6: we would say it would be impossible for the ball 427 00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:50,179 S6: just to float there. And that's true. And if it 428 00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:52,060 S6: float there, that would be like a miracle. But here's 429 00:20:52,060 --> 00:20:53,659 S6: another thing is that somebody could just stick out their 430 00:20:53,660 --> 00:20:55,580 S6: hand and catch the ball, and it would stop it 431 00:20:55,580 --> 00:20:57,540 S6: from hitting the ground. You know that apple that fell 432 00:20:57,540 --> 00:20:59,940 S6: for Newton, you could just you can catch it before 433 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:03,420 S6: it stops. And that's an agency getting involved. And so 434 00:21:03,420 --> 00:21:06,820 S6: when God personally gets involved, um, and brings a miracle 435 00:21:06,820 --> 00:21:10,100 S6: into life that is like an agency. He's the invisible hand, uh, 436 00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:13,300 S6: you could say, and all miracles. And that's what forensics 437 00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:16,540 S6: comes from, the study of forensics. And, uh, we look 438 00:21:16,540 --> 00:21:20,179 S6: for the the crime, who committed the crime. Um, we 439 00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:21,780 S6: look to make sure there was no natural causes, but 440 00:21:21,780 --> 00:21:23,900 S6: we can actually find agency. And I think there is 441 00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:28,010 S6: great agency. Uh, great proof for agency in a lot 442 00:21:28,010 --> 00:21:30,610 S6: of things that happen. And that's what either way, the 443 00:21:30,609 --> 00:21:32,609 S6: point of the chapter is to say your assumptions. You 444 00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:34,610 S6: got to be aware of your assumptions. Are you already 445 00:21:34,609 --> 00:21:37,810 S6: coming into the Bible saying that miracles can't happen? Because 446 00:21:37,810 --> 00:21:39,890 S6: then you're going to misinterpret a lot of Bible passages 447 00:21:39,890 --> 00:21:42,369 S6: because the Bible doesn't come from that perspective, and the 448 00:21:42,369 --> 00:21:44,810 S6: Bible isn't telling fairy tales. It doesn't come from that 449 00:21:44,810 --> 00:21:48,010 S6: perspective either. It doesn't think it's making up stories. It's 450 00:21:48,010 --> 00:21:51,129 S6: coming as if it's reporting, uh, things that have happened 451 00:21:51,530 --> 00:21:52,889 S6: in history. So, yeah. 452 00:21:53,090 --> 00:21:55,010 S1: Let me linger here because I think this is I 453 00:21:55,050 --> 00:21:57,609 S1: talked before about us learning how to think critically and biblically. 454 00:21:57,609 --> 00:22:00,010 S1: And this is part of critical thinking. So you have 455 00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:03,090 S1: to be careful regardless of what you're reading. But particularly 456 00:22:03,090 --> 00:22:04,609 S1: with the Word of God, you have to be careful 457 00:22:04,609 --> 00:22:07,250 S1: that you don't come with your own inherent biases. You 458 00:22:07,250 --> 00:22:09,450 S1: have to ask yourself before you start, am I willing 459 00:22:09,490 --> 00:22:13,290 S1: to go where the evidence leads? Or am I going 460 00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:16,370 S1: to start with some predetermined biases and everything I read 461 00:22:16,369 --> 00:22:19,850 S1: will backfill kind of situational ethicist approach to this, right? 462 00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:22,130 S1: I've already predetermined my outcome, and then I'm just going 463 00:22:22,170 --> 00:22:24,690 S1: to plug in the stuff that just supports my position 464 00:22:24,690 --> 00:22:27,050 S1: as opposed to being. Everybody wants to be open minded, right? 465 00:22:27,090 --> 00:22:29,649 S1: That's a very liberal position. Let's be open minded about this. 466 00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:32,010 S1: If you're going to be open minded, then be open minded. 467 00:22:32,010 --> 00:22:33,810 S1: When you read the Word of God, you can't start 468 00:22:33,810 --> 00:22:36,889 S1: out with a series of presuppositions or biases and then 469 00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:39,330 S1: think you're going to go where the evidence leads. That 470 00:22:39,330 --> 00:22:41,689 S1: doesn't work in science, and it certainly doesn't work when 471 00:22:41,690 --> 00:22:43,369 S1: you're reading the Word of God. It seems to me. 472 00:22:45,010 --> 00:22:51,090 S6: Exactly. And having that one of my favorite characters in, uh, 473 00:22:51,210 --> 00:22:54,609 S6: fiction is Sherlock Holmes. And I mentioned him in the 474 00:22:54,609 --> 00:22:57,650 S6: book as a kind of an example of a kind 475 00:22:57,650 --> 00:23:00,170 S6: of how to. An example of how to go about 476 00:23:00,170 --> 00:23:03,689 S6: trying to uncover, uh, truth in the scriptures and how 477 00:23:03,690 --> 00:23:05,770 S6: to interpret it correctly. And one of the things that 478 00:23:05,770 --> 00:23:08,250 S6: he says is once we got to let aside those, 479 00:23:08,650 --> 00:23:12,850 S6: those biases and, um, I love this line from one 480 00:23:12,850 --> 00:23:14,570 S6: of his books, he says, I confess that I have 481 00:23:14,570 --> 00:23:16,530 S6: been as blind as a mole, but is better to 482 00:23:16,570 --> 00:23:19,170 S6: learn wisdom late than to never learn it at all. 483 00:23:19,170 --> 00:23:21,690 S6: So when we realize we've had a bias, we have 484 00:23:21,690 --> 00:23:23,359 S6: to be willing to to change. We have to be 485 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,560 S6: able to change our thoughts with the evidence that we receive. 486 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,840 S6: And that goes both for the the Christian and the skeptic. Uh, 487 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,800 S6: either or. It's are we approaching it with, uh, leaving 488 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,679 S6: China as much as we can? It's probably impossible to 489 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,520 S6: do it completely, but leaving our, our our biases at 490 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,640 S6: the door. And when we when we try to enter 491 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,040 S6: in and try to solve the, uh, the meaning of 492 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,199 S6: a passage of Scripture. 493 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,040 S1: Exactly. And if I can extend that not to the skeptic, 494 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,760 S1: the seeker, or the cynic, but to the believer. That's 495 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,040 S1: also a wonderful way to start reading the scriptures, because 496 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,359 S1: if it was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, 497 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,240 S1: the Holy Spirit is likewise your teacher when you're reading it. 498 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:00,920 S1: So when you open your Bible, I hope you're not 499 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,480 S1: using it. Put it by an open window where the 500 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,280 S1: wind blows. Put your finger down. Boom! That's where I'm 501 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,000 S1: going to start. Go before the Lord first and say, father, 502 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,640 S1: I want you to teach me. You told me in 503 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,560 S1: your word that if I ask for wisdom, you'd give 504 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,080 S1: it to me liberally. And so I'm asking you, through 505 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,320 S1: the power of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit 506 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,959 S1: in my life, to really open my eyes, my mind, 507 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,639 S1: and my heart to what it is you want to 508 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,310 S1: teach me. And here's the thing about that. The wonderful 509 00:24:22,310 --> 00:24:24,430 S1: thing about the Bible is that once you dig, and 510 00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:26,310 S1: I don't care if you've read it a thousand times 511 00:24:26,350 --> 00:24:29,149 S1: on your thousand and one time, you will find something 512 00:24:29,150 --> 00:24:33,230 S1: you've never read before. It is deep and deep and deep. 513 00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:35,510 S1: That's why you keep plumbing for the depths of this book, 514 00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:37,590 S1: and you'll never find the bottom. More with Sean Wickes 515 00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:55,030 S1: after this. Tired of the endless, biased spin you hear 516 00:24:55,030 --> 00:24:57,510 S1: on mainstream media and in the market, we're using God's 517 00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:59,709 S1: Word as our guide as we examine today's events, and 518 00:24:59,710 --> 00:25:02,230 S1: we want you to be informed and bold about his truth. 519 00:25:02,350 --> 00:25:04,470 S1: This is a listener supported program, so if you value 520 00:25:04,470 --> 00:25:06,149 S1: what you hear and you want us to continue on 521 00:25:06,150 --> 00:25:09,070 S1: your station, become a partial partner with your monthly support, 522 00:25:09,070 --> 00:25:15,150 S1: call 877 58. That's eight 7758 or go online to 523 00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:20,100 S1: in the market with Janet Parshall. We are visiting with 524 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:22,459 S1: Shawn Wicks, who's a pastor and author and a ministry 525 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:25,460 S1: leader in Southern California. He serves as vice president of 526 00:25:25,460 --> 00:25:29,300 S1: the Southern California Bible Conference, directing camps and retreats at 527 00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:32,500 S1: Verdugo Pines Bible Camp. He's a graduate of Talbot School 528 00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:35,419 S1: of Theology, and he's the co-author of Before We Go 529 00:25:35,619 --> 00:25:39,180 S1: Uncovering Hidden Factors in Faith loss. He's also the co-author 530 00:25:39,180 --> 00:25:42,100 S1: of the book Is It Really the Good Book Restoring 531 00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:44,860 S1: Your Faith in the Bible by Questioning Your assumptions about it? 532 00:25:44,859 --> 00:25:47,179 S1: It is that latter book that we are discussing this hour, 533 00:25:47,380 --> 00:25:50,620 S1: by the way. Let me repeat that. There are multiple 534 00:25:50,619 --> 00:25:53,980 S1: assumptions that are addressed and debunked, if I may, in 535 00:25:54,020 --> 00:25:56,139 S1: this book. I'm not going to get to all of them. 536 00:25:56,140 --> 00:25:58,139 S1: And I want you to get curious enough for you 537 00:25:58,140 --> 00:26:00,820 S1: to read the breakdown of how you can answer these 538 00:26:00,820 --> 00:26:02,979 S1: kinds of questions. When a family or a friend raises 539 00:26:02,980 --> 00:26:05,140 S1: them with you. And you can go to my website 540 00:26:05,140 --> 00:26:09,140 S1: in the market with Janet, partially under the summation of 541 00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:11,140 S1: each of the two hours we do every day, there 542 00:26:11,140 --> 00:26:14,020 S1: is a little red box that says program Details and Audio. 543 00:26:14,140 --> 00:26:16,540 S1: Click that on. It'll take you over the information page. 544 00:26:16,540 --> 00:26:18,810 S1: You're going to see Shawn's handsome face, and you're also 545 00:26:18,810 --> 00:26:20,570 S1: going to see on the right hand side the book. 546 00:26:20,850 --> 00:26:22,690 S1: Click it through. It'll take you to a website where 547 00:26:22,690 --> 00:26:25,290 S1: you can purchase your copy as well. So, Sean, I 548 00:26:25,290 --> 00:26:27,129 S1: did my homework and I wanted to make sure that 549 00:26:27,130 --> 00:26:29,810 S1: because I was talking to you, not just you and John, 550 00:26:29,810 --> 00:26:31,530 S1: I wanted to make sure I picked chapters you wrote, 551 00:26:31,530 --> 00:26:34,770 S1: because that's terrible. I mean, just like, wait, I thought 552 00:26:34,770 --> 00:26:36,690 S1: it was supposed to turn into paper and geography. This 553 00:26:36,690 --> 00:26:38,970 S1: is math class. I made a mistake. So I'm glad 554 00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:41,530 S1: I found chapters that, in fact, I knew you authored. 555 00:26:41,530 --> 00:26:44,050 S1: And one of them was such an important assumption, you 556 00:26:44,050 --> 00:26:46,170 S1: had to break it down into two chapters. And that 557 00:26:46,170 --> 00:26:49,729 S1: was the false assumption that the Bible is simple. Now 558 00:26:49,730 --> 00:26:52,290 S1: let's talk about the clarification of terms right out of 559 00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:54,810 S1: the gate. When you say when the myth says the 560 00:26:54,810 --> 00:26:57,250 S1: Bible is simple, how do you think that's used as 561 00:26:57,250 --> 00:27:00,970 S1: a word as opposed to? It's easy. It's not complex. 562 00:27:01,090 --> 00:27:04,450 S1: Simple as in simple minded. Simple as it's easy peasy. 563 00:27:04,490 --> 00:27:06,650 S1: As you said in the title of that chapter, talk 564 00:27:06,650 --> 00:27:07,530 S1: to me about that. 565 00:27:09,650 --> 00:27:14,209 S6: Many people approach the the Bible that it's going to 566 00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:16,879 S6: be easy to interpret. So I pick it up, I 567 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,320 S6: read it, I read a verse, and then I immediately 568 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,000 S6: just say, oh, I'm going to apply that. And unfortunately, 569 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,720 S6: if we read it like it's a letter written from 570 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,280 S6: a friend to us, uh, we're going to interpret the 571 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,960 S6: wrong way. That is a way of interpreting the Bible. 572 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,919 S6: It's not a good way, but that's a way a 573 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,800 S6: lot of people come to the Bible. They just pick 574 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,720 S6: up the. I'm not saying God can't speak through his 575 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,520 S6: Word to somebody in a way. But when we're looking 576 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,959 S6: to understand especially difficult verses, difficult verses that are hard 577 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,560 S6: to understand and we just pick it up and we say, oh, 578 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,840 S6: it's going to be simple and I'm not going to 579 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,400 S6: put any effort into it, then we're really doing ourselves 580 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,920 S6: a disfavor. It's that dumbing down and and so and 581 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,080 S6: the Bible is why the Bible is the concepts that 582 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,880 S6: Jesus came to die, that God, that God loves us, 583 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,760 S6: we sinned. He he died for our sins, and he 584 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,359 S6: rose again for the forgiveness and all for the forgiveness 585 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,480 S6: of sins. And he's coming back again to judge the world. 586 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,359 S6: Those are easily understood in Scripture. And that's what we 587 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,440 S6: mean when we say the Bible is clear and understandable, 588 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,070 S6: is that we understand what we're accountable for. And but 589 00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:18,950 S6: where the Bible gets a little bit more thorny and 590 00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:22,350 S6: difficult is when it goes into other issues and more 591 00:28:22,350 --> 00:28:25,910 S6: difficult issues. And that's where we have to be careful 592 00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:28,350 S6: that we're just not reading it. Like, uh, like we 593 00:28:28,350 --> 00:28:31,510 S6: picked up a book written today because it's not it's 594 00:28:31,550 --> 00:28:33,830 S6: it has a, it's it's written in a different time 595 00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:36,830 S6: period at a different time, a different time, a different place. 596 00:28:36,869 --> 00:28:40,710 S6: It it's like a different culture. It's a culture from 597 00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:44,190 S6: a thousands of years ago and across the seas, across 598 00:28:44,190 --> 00:28:47,910 S6: the Atlantic. Right. It's we have to look at the 599 00:28:47,910 --> 00:28:51,430 S6: Bible in a more intellectual way. Um, not trying to 600 00:28:51,430 --> 00:28:53,190 S6: just focus on the intellect, but we need to approach 601 00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:56,110 S6: it in. And that takes time. And that's where it 602 00:28:56,110 --> 00:28:57,670 S6: gets a little more difficult. It's not that we can't 603 00:28:57,670 --> 00:28:59,270 S6: do it, but we just have to be a little 604 00:28:59,310 --> 00:29:02,950 S6: bit more thoughtful in the process of doing that. And 605 00:29:02,990 --> 00:29:05,430 S6: the Bible lends itself to both of those things. Uh, 606 00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:08,270 S6: the Bible tells us, it says in a verse that 607 00:29:08,270 --> 00:29:11,070 S6: Paul writes Paul's writing. Peter says, Paul, some of the 608 00:29:11,070 --> 00:29:15,190 S6: things he says is difficult to understand. So. Right. And 609 00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:17,710 S6: so that's very clear that the Bible can both be 610 00:29:18,270 --> 00:29:20,550 S6: simple and difficult. And here's the thing is, is God 611 00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:23,310 S6: did that. It seems like on purpose Jesus, when he 612 00:29:23,310 --> 00:29:26,590 S6: said he gave his parables to conceal and to reveal. 613 00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:28,510 S6: So he wants to reveal things, but he also wants 614 00:29:28,510 --> 00:29:31,470 S6: to conceal. I think that's so, man. He's transcendent and 615 00:29:31,470 --> 00:29:33,510 S6: he we're never going to stop learning about him. And 616 00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:35,110 S6: the Bible is always you're never gonna stop reading the 617 00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:37,190 S6: Bible because it comes from his heart. Um, there's always 618 00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:40,110 S6: something new to learn, and he wants people to seek 619 00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:42,910 S6: after him. And and so there is a sense where God, 620 00:29:42,910 --> 00:29:46,390 S6: by his own transcendence and majesty, um, that he's going 621 00:29:46,430 --> 00:29:48,510 S6: to demand a little bit more of us. And I 622 00:29:48,510 --> 00:29:50,870 S6: think that's it's part of God's character and a part 623 00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:52,070 S6: of just being God. 624 00:29:52,510 --> 00:29:54,550 S1: And I think it's a part of our growing up. 625 00:29:54,590 --> 00:29:56,430 S1: You know, Paul tells us to get off that diet 626 00:29:56,430 --> 00:29:58,670 S1: of milk and get to a diet of meat and 627 00:29:58,670 --> 00:30:01,070 S1: grow up in him. Well, how do you do that 628 00:30:01,070 --> 00:30:03,590 S1: if you're not getting into the word every day and 629 00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:05,430 S1: getting it written on the tablet of your heart and 630 00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:07,830 S1: trying to plumb it and understand it? And I was thinking, 631 00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:10,070 S1: when you were talking, the people that walked with him 632 00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:12,340 S1: looked at him and went, ah, I don't get it. 633 00:30:12,340 --> 00:30:13,900 S1: They didn't read it in a book. They heard him 634 00:30:13,940 --> 00:30:16,100 S1: say it and they still didn't get it. So again, 635 00:30:16,140 --> 00:30:18,060 S1: what I let me harken back. And you write about 636 00:30:18,060 --> 00:30:20,620 S1: this too in the book. I'm so thankful that what's 637 00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:23,500 S1: different about this in my reading Melville, for example, is 638 00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:26,580 S1: because I have the Holy Spirit as a teacher. It 639 00:30:26,580 --> 00:30:31,180 S1: is inspired and inerrant, transcendent and immutable. There's no other 640 00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:33,980 S1: book any human being will ever read at any spot 641 00:30:33,980 --> 00:30:37,020 S1: in the timeline of human history that can meet those criteria. 642 00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:39,820 S1: It sets it apart. So it's not just a book. 643 00:30:39,940 --> 00:30:42,740 S1: It's a book that's unlike any other book. And it's 644 00:30:42,740 --> 00:30:44,700 S1: also why you make the statement that we should look 645 00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:47,780 S1: at the Bible not as a lemon, but as an onion. 646 00:30:47,780 --> 00:30:49,820 S1: I love that tell our friends what you mean by that. 647 00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:54,380 S6: Yes. And so that, you know, the easy peasy lemon 648 00:30:54,380 --> 00:30:57,580 S6: squeezy is a phrase I learned from my son. And 649 00:30:57,620 --> 00:30:58,940 S6: I said, what does that mean? He goes that it's 650 00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:01,980 S6: going to be easy. And I'm like, okay. And so because, lemon, 651 00:31:01,980 --> 00:31:03,460 S6: you just had all you have to do is squeeze 652 00:31:03,460 --> 00:31:06,780 S6: it to make, you know, to get the juice out. But, uh, 653 00:31:06,780 --> 00:31:09,020 S6: and I say it's like an onion. It comes from 654 00:31:09,020 --> 00:31:12,370 S6: the Shrek movie. But because the Bible has layers and 655 00:31:12,410 --> 00:31:15,770 S6: there's a process, there's actually an art and a science 656 00:31:15,770 --> 00:31:21,050 S6: to interpreting scripture. And and people have been doing this for, for, for, 657 00:31:21,050 --> 00:31:23,130 S6: for ages. And that's where you can hone in and 658 00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:25,730 S6: get the truth. Because there is a there is tried 659 00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:29,330 S6: and true methods of if you really want to understand someone, 660 00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:31,370 S6: you got to got to learn to communicate. And so 661 00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:33,450 S6: the Bible, we need to learn to communicate in it's language. 662 00:31:33,450 --> 00:31:37,570 S6: And and hermeneutics is a skill of interpretation. And so, uh, 663 00:31:37,730 --> 00:31:40,850 S6: that's this book is actually not a classical apologetics book 664 00:31:40,890 --> 00:31:43,450 S6: because we're not trying to defend everything. This is in 665 00:31:43,450 --> 00:31:45,250 S6: a sense, we're trying to say, hey, one of the 666 00:31:45,250 --> 00:31:47,450 S6: biggest issues, why people have a problem with the Bible 667 00:31:47,450 --> 00:31:51,890 S6: or they stumble over it, is because there's these misinterpretations 668 00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:54,250 S6: of Scripture. We're not saying there's not still going to 669 00:31:54,250 --> 00:31:56,650 S6: be some other types of difficulties, but most of I 670 00:31:56,650 --> 00:31:59,650 S6: would say the vast majority of the the difficulties are 671 00:31:59,650 --> 00:32:02,370 S6: because the Bible, the, the person who's approached it has 672 00:32:02,370 --> 00:32:05,010 S6: not approached it. Uh, I'm not trying to come down 673 00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:08,200 S6: on them, but we don't think about it. And you 674 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,960 S6: have to approach the the scriptures with thoughtfulness, and then 675 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,960 S6: you start to see, oh, you know, I misunderstood this 676 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,160 S6: verse and I could give you a whole slew of those. 677 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,520 S6: I can give you an example. I don't know if 678 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,600 S6: you want one, but my my favorite is the mustard seed. 679 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,960 S6: Tell me if you want. Okay. Let me give you 680 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,000 S6: the mustard seed. So this verse bugged me. So that's 681 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,880 S6: why I have it in the book. But the mustard 682 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,320 S6: seed said, Jesus says it's the smallest of the smallest 683 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,320 S6: seed on on all the earth, but it's not. And 684 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,520 S6: it bugged me. As a young man in my 20s, 685 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,400 S6: I was like, Jesus should know better. He's God. Why 686 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,040 S6: doesn't he understand that the mustard seed isn't the smallest 687 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,720 S6: seed in the world? I know, right? And it sounds silly. 688 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,680 S6: But now that first did make me walk away from 689 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,760 S6: my faith. But if you get enough of those. Yeah. 690 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:49,720 S1: Exactly. 691 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,959 S6: And then. And then you start wondering, why didn't Jesus 692 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,880 S6: know that? And then I remember I went to the apologetics. 693 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,440 S6: It didn't really answer. Then I realized, um, one day 694 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,240 S6: my wife actually told me, um, you know, I just 695 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,040 S6: had the greatest day of my life. And I was like, really? 696 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,720 S6: More than our marriage, more than our kids, more than 697 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,710 S6: the day you got saved. Being a little too literal, right? Um, 698 00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:11,190 S6: and then it hit me that Jesus was simply saying, 699 00:33:11,230 --> 00:33:14,430 S6: I hate spiders, you know? And, uh, I would say 700 00:33:14,430 --> 00:33:16,950 S6: that's the biggest spider I've ever seen. And I realized 701 00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:18,630 S6: Jesus was saying, this is the smallest scene in the earth. 702 00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:21,469 S6: He wasn't teaching botany, right. The Bible is not a 703 00:33:21,470 --> 00:33:24,670 S6: science book. It's not a science book. He was just 704 00:33:24,670 --> 00:33:27,790 S6: speaking in everyday language. And he said, the mustard seed 705 00:33:27,790 --> 00:33:29,670 S6: is the smallest seed in all of the earth. And 706 00:33:29,830 --> 00:33:34,150 S6: and we give each other allowances for that. And and 707 00:33:34,150 --> 00:33:37,230 S6: so and the the false assumption is there is that 708 00:33:37,230 --> 00:33:40,070 S6: the Bible has to teach botany. Uh, in order to 709 00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:42,510 S6: teach science, the Bible is teaching science. When Jesus speaks 710 00:33:42,510 --> 00:33:45,630 S6: like that, it's not it's just isn't. And so and 711 00:33:45,630 --> 00:33:47,950 S6: then once you understand, oh, you go, actually, that isn't 712 00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:49,790 S6: really that big of a deal. But think about how 713 00:33:49,790 --> 00:33:51,910 S6: many I've read on websites where people say, look at 714 00:33:51,910 --> 00:33:54,550 S6: Jesus doesn't know science. And I'm like, well. 715 00:33:54,990 --> 00:33:57,910 S1: Right. But but isn't that if I can borrow from Scripture, 716 00:33:57,910 --> 00:34:00,310 S1: isn't that a little bit like swallowing camels and straining 717 00:34:00,310 --> 00:34:03,070 S1: at gnats? In fact, that's very apropos because we're talking 718 00:34:03,070 --> 00:34:06,660 S1: about proportionality here. The point of the teaching is not 719 00:34:06,660 --> 00:34:08,540 S1: the size of the mustard seed, it's the size of 720 00:34:08,540 --> 00:34:10,939 S1: the mustard seed compared to the mountain. You can move 721 00:34:10,940 --> 00:34:13,180 S1: through faith, isn't it? So whether or not it's the 722 00:34:13,180 --> 00:34:16,819 S1: smallest seed, even if you found the smallest seed, if 723 00:34:16,860 --> 00:34:18,500 S1: you still have enough faith, you can move the mountain. 724 00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:20,580 S1: Jesus didn't want us to focus on the size of 725 00:34:20,580 --> 00:34:22,620 S1: the seed. It was the size of our faith that 726 00:34:22,620 --> 00:34:24,540 S1: could move mountains. Was that not the point? 727 00:34:25,420 --> 00:34:28,500 S6: Absolutely. The he was talking about the the Kingdom of 728 00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:31,140 S6: God to the Kingdom of God increasing and expanding. And 729 00:34:31,140 --> 00:34:33,219 S6: he says it starts off as a little mustard seed 730 00:34:33,219 --> 00:34:37,939 S6: and then it becomes a a it becomes even mustard seeds, 731 00:34:37,940 --> 00:34:39,419 S6: not the biggest of trees, but it says it becomes 732 00:34:39,420 --> 00:34:41,940 S6: this big mustard tree. He was just making an example 733 00:34:42,060 --> 00:34:46,660 S6: of showing how something small can become really big, and 734 00:34:46,660 --> 00:34:50,420 S6: he was basically saying in his humbleness, I'm starting small, 735 00:34:50,980 --> 00:34:54,259 S6: but by the time this all is all over, the 736 00:34:54,260 --> 00:34:56,020 S6: Kingdom of God is going to be huge. And look 737 00:34:56,020 --> 00:34:58,420 S6: around now there's a billion Christians in the world don't 738 00:34:58,420 --> 00:35:01,620 S6: feel alone. Christians a billion plus because the Kingdom of 739 00:35:01,620 --> 00:35:04,489 S6: God and it's everywhere. It's not in one location. It 740 00:35:04,489 --> 00:35:07,090 S6: doesn't have any borders. The Kingdom of God is everywhere. 741 00:35:07,090 --> 00:35:10,690 S6: And it's exactly what Jesus said would happen. Happened. Um, 742 00:35:10,730 --> 00:35:13,410 S6: because he wasn't teaching botany. He was giving a if anything, 743 00:35:13,410 --> 00:35:14,770 S6: it was it was a parable. But it was it 744 00:35:14,770 --> 00:35:17,009 S6: was there's a prophecy. There's a lesson to be learned there, 745 00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:19,129 S6: that small things can become big things. 746 00:35:19,170 --> 00:35:22,450 S1: Exactly. Wow. There's so much to say. So maybe this 747 00:35:22,450 --> 00:35:23,930 S1: is a good point for me to bring up. Another 748 00:35:23,930 --> 00:35:25,649 S1: point that you make that I think is so, so, 749 00:35:25,650 --> 00:35:28,690 S1: so crucial. You know, when people are playing Bible baseball 750 00:35:28,730 --> 00:35:30,810 S1: and by that I mean they use it as a cudgel. 751 00:35:30,810 --> 00:35:33,850 S1: I can't because and they pull something out. If you 752 00:35:33,850 --> 00:35:36,490 S1: do not read in context, you are lost. Otherwise it's 753 00:35:36,489 --> 00:35:39,569 S1: like Jesus went, Judas went and hung himself. Go thou 754 00:35:39,570 --> 00:35:42,089 S1: and do likewise. Okay, both of those verses in the Bible, 755 00:35:42,090 --> 00:35:43,850 S1: you take him out of context and you've got this 756 00:35:43,850 --> 00:35:46,569 S1: horrible misinterpretation. I'm going to come up to a break, 757 00:35:46,570 --> 00:35:50,009 S1: but start this, John, because in context, if we don't 758 00:35:50,010 --> 00:35:53,330 S1: read this in context, then it's just take out a verse. Well, 759 00:35:53,330 --> 00:35:55,290 S1: there's the music. Let me get you to respond to 760 00:35:55,290 --> 00:35:56,969 S1: the other side, because I think this is a crucial point, 761 00:35:56,969 --> 00:35:59,970 S1: particularly for the critic who loves to take one. Another 762 00:35:59,969 --> 00:36:02,609 S1: example is judge not, lest ye be judged. Okay, that 763 00:36:02,610 --> 00:36:04,930 S1: one is a cudgel verse as well. So when we 764 00:36:04,969 --> 00:36:07,650 S1: come back, talk to me about how it is imperative, 765 00:36:07,650 --> 00:36:10,610 S1: as you approach the scriptures, to learn to read in 766 00:36:10,650 --> 00:36:13,569 S1: context and why that's so crucial. The book is, I 767 00:36:13,570 --> 00:36:16,089 S1: think it's so important and so timely. And you know what? 768 00:36:16,090 --> 00:36:19,089 S1: If you're not asking these questions, you have family or 769 00:36:19,090 --> 00:36:22,130 S1: friends that are asking these questions. Well, I can't believe 770 00:36:22,130 --> 00:36:26,009 S1: in the Bible because it's just too simple, really. Well, no. 771 00:36:26,010 --> 00:36:29,130 S1: And that's why John said it's not a lemon. Easy 772 00:36:29,130 --> 00:36:32,649 S1: squeezy lemon. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. It's much more like 773 00:36:32,650 --> 00:36:35,450 S1: an onion. You have to peel back the layers. Get it? 774 00:36:35,489 --> 00:36:37,730 S1: Is it really the good book? That's the book that 775 00:36:37,730 --> 00:36:50,730 S1: John Wicks has co-authored. More after this. We're visiting with pastor, author, 776 00:36:50,730 --> 00:36:53,130 S1: and ministry leader Shawn Wicks, who's the co-author of the 777 00:36:53,130 --> 00:36:55,890 S1: new book, Is It Really the Good Book? And the 778 00:36:55,930 --> 00:36:58,690 S1: subtitle says it all Restoring Your Faith in the Bible 779 00:36:58,730 --> 00:37:02,719 S1: by questioning your assumptions about it. So we and by 780 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,080 S1: the way, I think we've gone through one and barely 781 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,160 S1: a quarter of the second assumption. And there are eight 782 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:09,839 S1: in this book. So it'll tell you how much more 783 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,920 S1: there is for you to read and find out and discover. 784 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,600 S1: Talk to me about context. If we don't read in context, 785 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,120 S1: we just open a Pandora's box of confusion here. Talk 786 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:17,960 S1: to me about this. 787 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,200 S6: Uh, yes. Uh, understand there's a lot to bring a 788 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,719 S6: context in. So not only does context mean finding where 789 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,400 S6: it is written, literary context where it is in the Bible, 790 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,960 S6: it also needs historical context. Um, it needs you need 791 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,279 S6: to understand the genre. You need to understand the time 792 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,720 S6: and place and what's going on. Uh, at the time 793 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,160 S6: in the story, there's a lot that's involved. And failure 794 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,840 S6: to do that, uh, of course, will lead to, uh, 795 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:52,400 S6: horrible interpretations, actually. And and because we have different sensitivities, 796 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,560 S6: we have different values now, and we have different ways 797 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,590 S6: of looking at life. We have there's a lot of differences. 798 00:37:58,590 --> 00:38:00,710 S6: And so when we go there we might. Is it? 799 00:38:00,870 --> 00:38:03,029 S6: I would just say there's actually a great chance that 800 00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:04,990 S6: you're going to misinterpret the Bible if you don't spend 801 00:38:04,989 --> 00:38:07,350 S6: time to understand who wrote it to who they wrote 802 00:38:07,350 --> 00:38:10,350 S6: it to, and different books of the Bible, different portions 803 00:38:10,350 --> 00:38:14,870 S6: of the Bible, um, require a different approach, uh, require 804 00:38:14,910 --> 00:38:18,670 S6: different approaches. And so whatever verse you want to go to, 805 00:38:18,670 --> 00:38:21,310 S6: whatever one you want to look at, um, there's a, 806 00:38:21,310 --> 00:38:22,989 S6: there's steps and that we list them in the book. 807 00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:25,070 S6: I'm not going to say them all now, but there's 808 00:38:25,070 --> 00:38:28,390 S6: a process of going through and and when you go 809 00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:30,590 S6: through that, you can say, okay, now that I've narrowed 810 00:38:30,590 --> 00:38:33,910 S6: this down, this is a psalm or this is a proverb, and, 811 00:38:33,950 --> 00:38:35,230 S6: you know, train up a child in the way he 812 00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:36,750 S6: should go and he'll never depart. That doesn't that's not 813 00:38:36,750 --> 00:38:40,549 S6: a promise. That's a proverb. And you can if you 814 00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:43,310 S6: mistake that, you can be really heartbroken in life. Um, 815 00:38:43,350 --> 00:38:46,430 S6: and we cover things like that. And, uh, and I 816 00:38:46,430 --> 00:38:49,230 S6: think that's important because the I just want to leave 817 00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:51,589 S6: people hanging on that one. The proverb is an observation. 818 00:38:51,590 --> 00:38:55,589 S6: It's a good advice. And it's this it's what's normally 819 00:38:55,590 --> 00:38:58,339 S6: true in life, but it doesn't have to happen. And 820 00:38:58,340 --> 00:39:01,259 S6: so when you misinterpret that, and I've counseled women. I 821 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:03,779 S6: raised my children in the Lord. I'm still waiting for 822 00:39:03,780 --> 00:39:06,820 S6: God to fulfill his promise for my child to return, 823 00:39:06,860 --> 00:39:09,340 S6: you know, to come back and not to. He did depart, 824 00:39:09,340 --> 00:39:12,299 S6: and I and it's sad when you when you see 825 00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:15,140 S6: that and you realize they're holding God accountable for something 826 00:39:15,140 --> 00:39:18,380 S6: that God never promised. People have their own individual souls 827 00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:20,620 S6: and make their own individual choices. But what it's saying 828 00:39:20,620 --> 00:39:24,380 S6: is the observation is, is most children who are raised right, um, 829 00:39:24,660 --> 00:39:27,300 S6: will when they get older, they won't depart from the faith. 830 00:39:27,340 --> 00:39:30,340 S6: And that's true. But that's not everyone. We all, we all, 831 00:39:30,620 --> 00:39:32,299 S6: we see it all the time. In churches, you can 832 00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:34,899 S6: have the best parents and a child may walk away. 833 00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:37,660 S6: That's because they're individual souls. And so the proverb is 834 00:39:37,660 --> 00:39:39,819 S6: just an encouragement of good advice is, hey, raise up 835 00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:42,500 S6: your children and in a godly way, and it's a 836 00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:46,460 S6: better chance things will, uh, will go right. So but 837 00:39:46,460 --> 00:39:48,620 S6: there are promises, but that just happens not to be one. 838 00:39:48,620 --> 00:39:51,899 S6: So understanding the genre, for example, in that thing is 839 00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:54,739 S6: so key to understanding what the Bible is saying. And 840 00:39:54,739 --> 00:39:56,049 S6: so And that's for everything. 841 00:39:56,290 --> 00:39:59,210 S1: So ask David about his kids. How'd that work out 842 00:39:59,210 --> 00:39:59,690 S1: for him? 843 00:40:00,450 --> 00:40:01,129 S6: Exactly. 844 00:40:03,130 --> 00:40:04,649 S1: You make the point in the book that I think 845 00:40:04,650 --> 00:40:07,130 S1: was excellent. You said the Bible is often hard to 846 00:40:07,130 --> 00:40:10,450 S1: understand and obscure because of our own sinfulness. I thought 847 00:40:10,450 --> 00:40:13,410 S1: this was such an important point. So it isn't just 848 00:40:13,410 --> 00:40:17,290 S1: preconceived biases or notions or hearsay or you really haven't 849 00:40:17,330 --> 00:40:19,930 S1: read it. You've read about it. I mean, it's guilty 850 00:40:19,930 --> 00:40:24,089 S1: by rumors, not by association. But if you really don't 851 00:40:24,090 --> 00:40:25,930 S1: want to read the Bible, maybe it's because you're afraid 852 00:40:25,930 --> 00:40:27,930 S1: that in the end it's like looking in a mirror. 853 00:40:27,930 --> 00:40:30,330 S1: It is for me, among the other things it does, 854 00:40:30,370 --> 00:40:33,250 S1: and it does a panoply of things. Is it convicts? 855 00:40:33,250 --> 00:40:35,130 S1: So maybe you don't want to read it. Talk to 856 00:40:35,130 --> 00:40:35,850 S1: me about this. 857 00:40:36,890 --> 00:40:41,490 S6: Yeah. So the idea here is, is when Jesus Jesus 858 00:40:41,489 --> 00:40:46,170 S6: often corrected bad interpretations of Scripture. And the interesting thing 859 00:40:46,170 --> 00:40:48,170 S6: that came out to me as I read that is 860 00:40:48,650 --> 00:40:53,880 S6: he put that on people and their their sinfulness sometimes. 861 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,359 S6: Sometimes for other reasons, but sometimes their sinfulness. And you 862 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,440 S6: never blame Scripture. And that's telling to me. And that's 863 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,520 S6: it opened my eyes. I was actually a kind of 864 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,080 S6: a last minute insert in the book when I, when 865 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,120 S6: I was writing it, is it hit me how many 866 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,239 S6: of our times are misinterpretations come from our and our 867 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,480 S6: misreadings of the Bible? Misapplications come from our own sinfulness. 868 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,359 S6: Because here's the thing is, is we are sinful people, 869 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,320 S6: and when God is challenging us, we're going to resist. 870 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,440 S6: And it's just human nature. When someone tells us something 871 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,680 S6: we don't want to hear, what do we do? We resist. 872 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,120 S6: And it's normal. It's. But when that happens with Scripture, 873 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,640 S6: we have to be aware of it. Am I resisting 874 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,239 S6: this because I don't want it to be true? And 875 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,760 S6: that can be for a skeptic, for a Christian, for 876 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,200 S6: for anyone. Why am I resisting this? And even when 877 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,320 S6: I start to find out what the passage really means, 878 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,520 S6: I'm going to hold on to something or I want. 879 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,200 S6: I want to believe the Bible is a bunch of 880 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,360 S6: fairy tales. I'm going to look for all the fairy 881 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,960 S6: tale things, I think sound fairy tale ish. And in 882 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,239 S6: order to, you know, uh, to to write myself off that, 883 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,960 S6: I don't have to be accountable. And, you know, if I, 884 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,080 S6: if I think the, the Bible says, you know, about, uh, 885 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,319 S6: for example, slaves obey your masters. Uh, if I don't 886 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,720 S6: want to be accountable to my boss at work. Right. 887 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,200 S6: And I'm not there's a lot to go into that discussion. 888 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,319 S6: But if that's what I want to say, then I'm 889 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,600 S6: going to say, see, the Bible teaches slavery. I can't 890 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,359 S6: trust the Bible in these things. And so this ends 891 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,760 S6: up being our approach. Instead of seeing what the Bible 892 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,600 S6: is really saying, um, our sinfulness gets in the way 893 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,720 S6: and it happens a lot. It's just natural and it's normal. 894 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,399 S6: And uh, uh, and so yeah, that's that's really where 895 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:30,879 S6: it came from. 896 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,200 S1: That section let me share with our friends when you 897 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,640 S1: talk about the different genres, all of this is in Scripture. 898 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:41,000 S1: There's narrative law, poetry, wisdom, prophecy, gospel, parable, letter, homily 899 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,399 S1: and apocalyptic. So when you're reading, which genre does it 900 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,840 S1: fall in? And I think it's imperative that you understand that. 901 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,040 S1: So oh golly, there's so much more. I want to 902 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:49,440 S1: talk to you. 903 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,270 S6: And it's and imperative you understand it. So you. Oh. 904 00:42:52,270 --> 00:42:54,509 S6: I'm sorry. It's imperative that you understand it. So you 905 00:42:54,510 --> 00:42:57,910 S6: ask the right questions. Um. That's the important thing. When 906 00:42:57,910 --> 00:43:00,790 S6: you come to the text, it's like a detective. You've 907 00:43:00,830 --> 00:43:03,029 S6: got to find the right questions to ask of the text. 908 00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:05,109 S6: And that's the hardest part, is learning to ask the 909 00:43:05,110 --> 00:43:07,069 S6: right questions. You know, I had a lot of Bible school, 910 00:43:07,070 --> 00:43:08,670 S6: and I was such a blessing to learn how to 911 00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:10,549 S6: ask the right questions. And I just want to get 912 00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:12,590 S6: that into everybody's hands. John and I both want to 913 00:43:12,590 --> 00:43:14,790 S6: get that into everybody's hands. How to ask the right 914 00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:16,390 S6: questions so you can understand Scripture. 915 00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:19,109 S1: Well, you just kind of anticipated my question, John, and 916 00:43:19,110 --> 00:43:21,549 S1: I'm thrilled that you did, because I think this is 917 00:43:21,550 --> 00:43:24,550 S1: a great book for somebody who falls into that seeker skeptic, 918 00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:28,110 S1: cynic category, because I'm going to guess it's going to address, 919 00:43:28,110 --> 00:43:30,430 S1: at a minimum, one, if not all, of many of 920 00:43:30,430 --> 00:43:33,950 S1: the presuppositions they have, the mythology they have subscribed to 921 00:43:34,190 --> 00:43:36,149 S1: that could be mitigated by reading the book. But I 922 00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:38,029 S1: tell you, as a as a woman whose walk with 923 00:43:38,030 --> 00:43:40,830 S1: the Lord for a long time, I have to tell you, 924 00:43:40,830 --> 00:43:42,709 S1: I thought it was worth my read because it went 925 00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:44,910 S1: back and I thought, when the enemy sits on your 926 00:43:44,910 --> 00:43:46,989 S1: shoulder and says the same lie he did in the 927 00:43:46,989 --> 00:43:49,660 S1: beginning of the book of Genesis, did God really say, 928 00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:52,460 S1: this is a wonderful way to mitigate it? And it is. 929 00:43:52,460 --> 00:43:54,899 S1: Even though you didn't write it necessarily as an apologetic book, 930 00:43:54,940 --> 00:43:57,620 S1: it sharpened my apologetic to be able to contend for 931 00:43:57,620 --> 00:44:00,700 S1: the faith by saying, when anybody gets these kinds of 932 00:44:00,739 --> 00:44:02,620 S1: doubts and there may be moments of doubts in your 933 00:44:02,620 --> 00:44:05,020 S1: own Pilgrim's Progress, it's a great way to look at 934 00:44:05,020 --> 00:44:08,620 S1: some of these mythologies and to say, oh, oh, there's 935 00:44:08,620 --> 00:44:11,020 S1: a great answer. Sean and John have done an absolutely 936 00:44:11,020 --> 00:44:13,100 S1: fabulous job with this book. So, Sean, I thank you 937 00:44:13,100 --> 00:44:15,500 S1: in an hour. That went far too quickly, and I'm 938 00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:18,460 S1: glad I made that statement of truth at the beginning. 939 00:44:18,460 --> 00:44:21,580 S1: There are eight assumptions that false assumptions that they look at. 940 00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:24,220 S1: I think we did one and a half. So there's 941 00:44:24,219 --> 00:44:26,100 S1: a boatload of stuff in the book we didn't get to, 942 00:44:26,140 --> 00:44:28,580 S1: which means I would strongly recommend you read it and 943 00:44:28,580 --> 00:44:31,140 S1: make sure that you can then better contend for the 944 00:44:31,140 --> 00:44:33,819 S1: faith by knowing what you believe and why you believe it. Sean, 945 00:44:33,820 --> 00:44:36,540 S1: thanks for a great conversation and a great book, and 946 00:44:36,540 --> 00:44:38,219 S1: thank you, friends. We'll see you next time on In 947 00:44:38,260 --> 00:44:39,900 S1: the Market with Janet Parshall.