S1: Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
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S1: month's truth tool is. It's the Mediterranean Sea Rules by
S1: Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air
S1: because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book,
S1: he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the
S1: book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
S1: we push through the storm, learning to trust in God
S1: and all that he has done for us. It's a
S1: magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
S1: Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
S1: recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
S1: because trust me, every single one of us will find
S1: ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage
S1: through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea
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S1: tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much. And now
S1: please enjoy the broadcast.
S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: Americans worshiping government over God.
S5: Extremely rare safety move by a 17 years.
S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated every time.
S6: The Bush tax is not.
S1: Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall
S1: and a very happy Wednesday to you. Hope you're having
S1: a great week. Well, the president of the United States
S1: travels to the Middle East later this week. And I
S1: don't know about you because I think if we're traveling
S1: through life appropriately with the Bible in one hand and
S1: the newspaper in the other, I'm always watching the nation
S1: of Israel, and I'm interested in the neighboring nations as well.
S1: So what sorts of things will they talk about? Trade.
S1: Probably oil. Absolutely. Terrorism. Aha! Without a doubt. And in
S1: the meantime, I wonder what sorts of things the president
S1: and his entourage will hear about the nation of Israel.
S1: There will be a challenge before the president, as there
S1: is always to push back from our support of the
S1: nation of Israel. But I don't know if that's going
S1: to happen or not, because the president just announced yesterday
S1: that the Houthis. Remember, these are in Yemen, backed by Iran.
S1: It's always a proxy engagement with Iran have agreed to
S1: stop attacking global shipping in the Red sea. Hugely important
S1: for global economy. Israel? Not so much. They're not quite
S1: so sure. Here's more from CBN news.
S7: Trump made the stunning announcement during an Oval Office meeting.
S8: The Houthis have announced that they are not, or they've
S8: announced to us at least, that they don't want to
S8: fight anymore. And we will honor that. And we will, uh,
S8: we will stop the bombings. And they have capitulated.
S7: Oman, who helped negotiate the agreement, said the Houthis agreed
S7: to stop attacks on U.S. ships in the Red sea.
S7: The Houthis, however, say they are, quote, evaluating the cease
S7: fire proposal. The announcement appears to leave Israel on its
S7: own to defend itself against the Houthis. The Iranian backed
S7: terror group says it will continue to attack Israel, warning
S7: that going to hit the Jewish state so hard in
S7: coming days that all Israelis should stay in their bomb shelters.
S7: That threat comes after Israeli warplanes devastated the Houthis main
S7: shipping port and its airport in attacks this week. Video
S7: showed airliners blown apart and buildings ablaze at the airport
S7: in Sana'a.
S9: It is also the airport, as I understand it, that
S9: is highly strategic, through which arms are coming, that are
S9: coming from Iran and other places that are used in
S9: these missile attacks on Israel.
S7: The massive strike was retaliation for the Houthis hitting Israel's
S7: Ben Gurion airport with a missile Sunday.
S10: I said that the Houthi attack would be answered not
S10: with a bang and were done, but with bangs.
S7: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned those banks could soon
S7: hit the Houthis main backer as well.
S10: And this also concerns the patron of the Houthis. Iran,
S10: without whose approval and long term support the Houthis cannot
S10: carry out their criminal missile attack on us.
S7: Israel's defence defense minister branded Tehran and its proxies the
S7: Iranian octopus as he threatened the regime.
S11: I know you bear direct responsibility for every attack by
S11: the Houthi octopus arm against the state of Israel, and
S11: you will also bear the full consequences.
S7: Iran claims the Houthis in Yemen are acting on their own.
S12: All accusations against Iran in connection with what Yemenis are
S12: doing are baseless.
S7: Meanwhile, President Trump is reiterating his desire to make a
S7: deal rather than bomb Iran to keep it from developing nukes.
S8: This is really crunch time. I will tell you, for
S8: Iran and for their country, this is a very important
S8: time for Iran. This is the most important time in
S8: the history of Iran for Iran. And I hope they
S8: do what's right, but they can't have a nuclear weapon.
S8: And if they choose to go a different route, it's
S8: going to be a very sad thing. And it's something
S8: we don't want to have to do. But we have
S8: no choice. They're not going to have a nuclear weapon.
S8: They're not going to have a nuclear weapon.
S7: Chris Mitchell CBN news, Jerusalem.
S1: You know the president also said something else at the
S1: same time. He said and we want it to be
S1: a great country. Let it be a tremendously successful rich country.
S1: They have everything you need. The people are incredible. They
S1: have vast amounts of oil and assets. We want it
S1: to be a successful country. We don't want it to
S1: do anything that's going to get in the way of that.
S1: But they can't have a nuclear weapon. And if they
S1: choose to go a different route, it's going to be
S1: a very sad thing. And that's something we don't want
S1: to have to do. But we have no choice. They're
S1: not going to have a nuclear weapon. They're not going
S1: to have a nuclear weapon. Do you understand that? Okay, now,
S1: I'm so glad that Doctor Herman will be joining us
S1: in a few days so that he can offer us again,
S1: key insight. Remember, again, the vast majority of Iranians live
S1: below the poverty line. The animus here is not against
S1: the Iranian people who let the record reflect her overwhelmingly pro-Israel.
S1: It is the ayatollahs. It's the theocratic leaders that are
S1: calling the shots here. Israel is the little Satan. America
S1: is the Great Satan in their Islamic eschatology. Just like
S1: the Chinese want global hegemony. Interesting. Nimrod was just the
S1: forerunner of all of this kind of rebellious thinking. Just
S1: like China wants global hegemony, Iran wants global Islam. And
S1: in order for that to happen, there has to be
S1: an apocalypse of a global nature. And then their Mahdi,
S1: their equivalent of a messiah. Although it's a false messiah,
S1: comes forth. So the idea of destruction and mayhem, they
S1: think somehow is there stepping into their theological mandate to
S1: bring about this Islamic domination. Now that's tough. You're not
S1: just fighting someone who says, I want to grab land.
S1: I want to steal your assets. I want to further
S1: our boundaries for more natural resources and population distribution. This
S1: is about saying we, Islam is going are going to
S1: dominate the world. And so I think it's important. And
S1: I do think that the the octopus is a great idea.
S1: I'm glad the defense minister in Israel refers to it
S1: as the Iranian octopus. What does an octopus have? Multiple
S1: tendril outreaches, right. So Hamas is funded back door from Iran,
S1: Hezbollah in Lebanon funded back door from Iran, the Houthi, Yemen's.
S1: Despite their protestations, they are funded by Iran. And so
S1: what they're doing is they're testing the tensile strength of
S1: Israel and could be, by the way, trying to draw
S1: the United States into a greater global conflict. Now, I
S1: shared with you yesterday that the U.S. has been moving
S1: warships into that part of the world. So they're making
S1: their presence known. It's kind of like the you want
S1: a piece of this line out of a movie, right?
S1: But the bottom line is Iran cannot get a nuclear bomb.
S1: Do you remember? And I'm sure you did, because we
S1: talked about it here, but I think you remember it
S1: as well. Benjamin Netanyahu comes to the United Nations. He's
S1: standing in front of that green marble wall. He holds
S1: up a drawing, looked very simplistic. Some people mocked it.
S1: But simplicity often gets across very complex ideas. He drew
S1: a picture of a bomb. He drew a line about
S1: halfway through up the bomb and he said, this is
S1: how far Iran is. If they get here, they have
S1: total nuclear capability. We must not, he said. At that
S1: point in time in history, let them get to that
S1: point in development of their nuclear weapon. Well, just think
S1: how much more that bomb has filled up since Netanyahu
S1: has given that speech. So this is a prescient danger.
S1: It is a real and present concern. And as the
S1: president travels to the Middle East, you and I ought
S1: to be praying for wisdom, for discernment, for insight, quick
S1: to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, and understand
S1: that it isn't just these countries in isolation. It is
S1: all of the Middle East, all of the ideas that
S1: are being thrown together in a percolating pot. We need
S1: God's help. Back after this. When your plans collapse, make
S1: sure you don't. That's just one of ten powerful principles
S1: in this month's truth Tool. The Mediterranean Sea Rules by
S1: Robert Morgan draws life changing lessons from Paul's shipwreck recorded
S1: in acts. Learn to navigate through the storm with faith
S1: and courage. As for your copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
S1: when you give a gift of any amount to in
S1: the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go
S1: to in the market with Janet Parshall. Have you ever
S1: stopped to consider why we talk about the persecuted church
S1: so much on this broadcast? Well, I'll tell you again,
S1: because I tell you, every time we talk to people
S1: like Bob Fu of Chinaaid or Todd Nettleton or Open
S1: Doors or Doctor Herman Shariat, and the list goes on
S1: and on and on. These faithful servants who come back
S1: after their travels and tell us about the persecuted church
S1: and how we need to pray for our brothers and sisters.
S1: After all, the Bible tells us when one part of
S1: the body hurts, we all hurt, and we're supposed to
S1: pray for those who've been led away in chains, but
S1: I think there's a deeper reason also why we need
S1: to be talking about this. What do our brothers and
S1: sisters in the persecuted church know? What are they experiencing?
S1: What have they learned that we ourselves need to know
S1: and learn and practice here in the West? We have discrimination.
S1: We have bigotry, but we don't have outright persecution yet
S1: in this country. But I believe because we're told in
S1: the Word of God that when not if, those fiery
S1: trials come, we should be gleaning every bit of knowledge
S1: and insight and wisdom we can for our brothers and
S1: sisters who are paying the price for saying, yes, Lord.
S1: And that's exactly what we're going to talk about this hour,
S1: with a focus particularly on the church in China. Now
S1: I'm going to start with the good news. There are
S1: more Bible believing, born again Christians in China than there
S1: are in all of the United States. So let that
S1: sink in. We are talking about a massive group of
S1: believers who, despite the oppression of the communist regime, the
S1: church continues to grow. Now let that sink in. Why?
S1: In a state of oppression, outright hatred, animosity, destruction, imprisonment,
S1: false charges. Does the church continue to grow? If anything,
S1: if we led with our comfort zone, wouldn't we say, oh, no,
S1: cost is too dear. I'm not going to follow Jesus
S1: at all. I'm going to retreat. I will absolutely bow
S1: in submission to Caesar and all that he demands of me.
S1: But yet that's not happening in China. Therefore, there must
S1: be something very important we need to learn from our
S1: brothers and sisters. That's why I've asked Hannah Nation to
S1: join us today. She's the managing editor of the center
S1: for House Church Theology. She's a writer, and she's a
S1: student of missions history in world Christianity. And she's inspired
S1: by this historical movement and the privilege of witnessing a
S1: new chapter of church history that's taking place all across China.
S1: She writes with insight. She writes with deep intellect, and
S1: she writes with passion. She is joining us today because
S1: she has edited an amazing book, the translation of writings
S1: by some of our brothers and sisters, particularly Wang Yi.
S1: And the book is called Faithful Disobedience, subtitled Writings on
S1: Church and State from a Chinese House Church Movement. Hannah,
S1: the Warmest of welcomes. I'm thrilled you're here. And I
S1: have a million questions. And I know I won't get
S1: through all of them, but let me dive in feet
S1: first into the deep end of the pool. First you.
S1: How did you get interested in what was going on
S1: in China?
S13: Well, thank you so much for having me. I first
S13: went to China as a college student. Um, it was
S13: really kind of out of nowhere. I hadn't had previous
S13: connections to China, but a group of my friends from
S13: school went and taught English for a summer. And that
S13: same year, my dad actually is a physics professor, and
S13: he had a Chinese grad student who came to faith.
S13: And those two things coinciding just I don't know, they
S13: just triggered something in me. I became really curious. Um,
S13: I was a history major and I'd heard a lot
S13: about the church's growth in China. And I just thought,
S13: I just really want to go see it. I also
S13: wanted to see the Great Wall. So, um, I signed
S13: up and went to teach English the next summer. That
S13: was back in 2005. And basically have just been hooked
S13: ever since. Um, it's hard to go and not be
S13: really blown away by the number of people there and
S13: how old the culture is, and the Lord has just
S13: kept me in this work since then.
S1: Wow. Do you ever stop and just smile and think
S1: that the Lord has a great sense of humor, that
S1: your last name is nation, and you're interested in church
S1: history on a global level? How John Bunyan esque. I
S1: think it's absolutely perfect, by the way.
S13: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's a it's a married name.
S13: I got it when I married my husband. And yeah, I,
S13: we often, uh, chuckle to ourselves, especially when you're sitting
S13: in church and they say something like, now it's time
S13: for us to pray for the nations. And it's always like, oh,
S13: thank you.
S14: I love that. Wow.
S1: Well, I want and I'm so thankful you're here. And
S1: we brother Yang is sitting behind prison bars, so you
S1: are becoming his voice to a national audience here. And
S1: I'm so grateful for that. And I want to back
S1: up a little bit and ask about the the compilation
S1: of the book. First of all, their translations. Now, these
S1: have been readily available in Chinese, but they haven't been
S1: readily available in English. And for some reason they have
S1: made it into the halls of academia. Why the receptivity?
S1: Is it a geopolitical response as opposed to a theological one?
S1: But why has it taken such a long time for
S1: these historic, powerful statements of faith and declaration of belief
S1: and the in the Reformed Church? Uh, fashion? Why have
S1: they taken so long to work to the church writ
S1: large here in America, but in academia in particular?
S13: That's an excellent question. That's one I think about a lot.
S13: I'd say that's a driving motivation in my work is, uh,
S13: basically trying to change that and help bring these writings
S13: out from China. I mean, I think there's probably foundationally
S13: just a very simple answer, which is that, um, not
S13: a lot of people can read Chinese in the Western world.
S13: And so, um, we really rely on translation, and I
S13: spend a lot of time just thinking about how much
S13: in today's global church, um, just the, the gifts of
S13: the linguistic gifts of translators are desperately needed. This is
S13: how it's possible for us to hear from each other.
S13: And I think we really need to put more of
S13: an emphasis on on thinking about that as a spiritual
S13: gift in order to help us hear from each other
S13: and learn from each other. So, I mean, I think
S13: in terms of these writings, these particular writings, um, it,
S13: you know, so I've been working in this particular work,
S13: translating and bringing writings out from China for about seven
S13: years now. Um, maybe a little longer than that. Um,
S13: but basically, um, it takes a lot of time. It
S13: takes a lot of investment and, um, it takes a
S13: lot of work. And so it's just taken us a
S13: while to build the team that's needed to do this.
S1: Well, thank you. On behalf of everybody listening. And for
S1: the church in general, I don't mean to be presumptive
S1: on the church's behalf, but oh, what we need to
S1: hear from our persecuted brothers and sisters, the depth of
S1: their commitment to Christ. They're absolutely strong adherence to the
S1: centrality of Christ and His Word. And this book is
S1: just precious beyond words. So let me take a break
S1: and come back. We're going to learn more about the writings,
S1: The man and the House church movement in Communist China
S1: with Hannah Nation right after this. Hannah Nation is with us.
S1: She's the managing director of the center for House Church Theology,
S1: and she's a writer and a student of missions, history
S1: and world Christianity. And she joins us as the editor
S1: of a book called Faithful Disobedience. These are the writings
S1: of Wang Yi. He's known globally, by the way, but
S1: his writings have predominantly been in Chinese. And we, the
S1: church in particular, need to hear what he has to say.
S1: And he writes on church and state from a Chinese
S1: house movement perspective, which I think takes us to where
S1: we need to go first. Hannah, what I've discovered is
S1: that there are a lot of people in the church,
S1: and this is not a point of condemnation. This is
S1: the joy of doing a program like this, is that
S1: we don't have a lot of working knowledge. We don't
S1: know Three-Self from House church. We don't know what the
S1: underground church means. We don't know what the current state
S1: is with President XI and what his proposals are for
S1: his very Mao esque worldview. So I want to unpack
S1: terms so that people can understand atmospherically what Wang and
S1: others like him have to deal with. So when we
S1: talk about the House church in China, what do we mean?
S13: Really what we mean is churches that refuse to register
S13: with the Three-Self Patriotic Movement, which is essentially China's state church. Um,
S13: it's they continue to call themselves the House church. So, um,
S13: the term that you'll, you'll hear Christians in house churches
S13: use to reference themselves and the churches they're in is
S13: house church. But, um, they don't necessarily mean churches that
S13: are meeting in private homes. Often these churches are much
S13: larger than is feasible to meet in a private home. Um,
S13: they often will meet in settings like hotel conference rooms
S13: or meeting rooms. Um, some churches are able to rent
S13: commercial space or even own property. That was particularly true
S13: up until 2018. Um, really, for the last couple of decades,
S13: there was just this period of relative openness. And so
S13: you saw, um, some pretty large churches in Beijing and
S13: in Chengdu, like early reign, Wang Yi's church. But in 2018, um,
S13: a new set of religious regulations began to be implemented.
S13: And we're really in a new era, um, for Christianity
S13: in China again, really for all religious practice, it's it's
S13: not just Christians, but all religions across China are dealing
S13: with a new set of regulations and essentially pressure from
S13: the government to comply. So, um, we I wouldn't say
S13: that persecution is anywhere, Where, you know, back to where
S13: it was during the Cultural Revolution or, you know, the
S13: middle of the 20th century. But this is certainly a
S13: time of increased persecution once again of the churches in China.
S13: And that really began in 2018.
S1: It's fascinating because there is such an intersection in so
S1: many parts of the world when it comes to Christianity,
S1: with the geopolitics of that area. And it isn't being
S1: political by acknowledging that, it's helping us understand how then
S1: shall we live atmospherically in that particular area? So 18
S1: parallels Xi's desire to really return to very Maoist kind
S1: of ideas. Now he's basically made himself leader for the
S1: rest of his life. He's been unambiguous in his desire
S1: for hegemony. And of course, the core tenet here is
S1: that allegiance to anything but the state is not going
S1: to be functional if you want to continue to spread communism,
S1: if you have allegiance to Christ, it stands in stark
S1: opposition to the government. So that raises a couple of questions.
S1: If you know, particularly post 2018, that there is an
S1: uptick in Tic and aggression against Christians and religious minorities.
S1: Let's not forget the Uyghurs as well. That's another perfect example.
S1: But why would they? I mean, my first question is
S1: a Western Christian is, oh my goodness, you met in
S1: a hotel room and the government knows where you are.
S1: I mean, my goodness, they have surveillance everywhere. They have
S1: the the credit system that's viewed all over the country,
S1: for heaven's sakes. So how in the world then can
S1: you turn around and say, I'm going to meet in
S1: a hotel room? Because in some respects in the West,
S1: we might say, isn't that like flagging a red flag
S1: in front of a raging bull? And yet they do it.
S1: How come?
S13: Well, there are two, two different aspects to the answer
S13: to that. One is that a lot of persecution in
S13: China is still very pocketed. So it follows just as
S13: the topic overall follows geopolitical trends, it also follows trends
S13: within China. Um, essentially places where pressure is highest politically
S13: within the country. That's also where you will see increased
S13: persecution of Christians. Places where, um, you know, prosperity is high. Um,
S13: the everything feels stable to the local authorities. Um, persecution
S13: often is is less there. And so, for example, you know,
S13: pastors I know who are able to meet in um, hotels,
S13: they are in places of relative prosperity and stability places,
S13: pastors I know whose churches are under, you know, very
S13: heavy persecution. They're often in poorer areas. They're often in
S13: places where, um, there's just a lot more uncertainty. And
S13: it's an easy way, um, for governing local provincial authorities
S13: to essentially curry favour with the central government. Um, kind
S13: of similar to a lot of different areas of life.
S13: You know, if you are trying to look powerful, um,
S13: it's easy to do so by, um, pressing down on
S13: those who you know aren't following the laws, whether that is, uh,
S13: you know, actual criminal activity or whether that's something like
S13: the churches. So, um, yeah. So I think that's one question,
S13: one way to answer it. The other way, though, is that,
S13: I mean, I think all these pastors are very committed
S13: to the church being able to be found. They really
S13: believe that the church is the best gift they can
S13: give their cities. And so they want to be wise.
S13: They want to not make foolish decisions, but they are
S13: very committed to doing whatever it takes for their churches
S13: to be available to people. And sometimes that means taking
S13: the risk of meeting a more open places.
S14: Wow.
S1: So just even the passive listener to what you just said.
S1: So there's a depth of commitment. There's an adherence again
S1: to the purpose of the church. And there's a sense
S1: of courage there that if it's good for the city,
S1: if it helps us get the message of the cross out,
S1: then maybe we'll have to be more public in our meeting. Wow.
S1: There's going to be so much to discuss. We're already
S1: at the halfway mark. I'm so glad you're with us
S1: for the rest of the hour, Hannah. The book is
S1: called Faithful Disobedience Writings on Church and State from a
S1: Chinese House church movement back after this. Tired of the endless,
S1: biased spin you hear on mainstream media and in the market,
S1: we're using God's Word as our guide as we examine
S1: today's events, and we want you to be informed and
S1: bold about his truth. This is a listener supported program,
S1: so if you value what you hear and you want
S1: us to continue on your station, become a partial partner
S1: with your monthly support, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758
S1: or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org.
S1: We are visiting with Hannah Nation who is the editor
S1: of the book Faithful Disobedience. Writing on church and state.
S1: From a Chinese House movement, a church movement. She is
S1: the managing editor of the center for House Church Theology,
S1: a writer, and a student of missions, history, and world Christianity.
S1: And I am so very grateful that she is bringing
S1: to our attention the church here in the West, in particular,
S1: what our brothers and sisters have learned and what they need,
S1: and we must hear from them on a regular basis.
S1: So oh, and as I said before, my frustration is
S1: that it's a very, very rich book, and I'm barely
S1: throwing a stone across a quiet pond here. But I
S1: need to get to the person of Wang Yi because
S1: we talked about the house church. You write that they're
S1: theologically engaged, that really when we talk about the house church,
S1: it's everything from evangelicals, Charismatics, reformed, and the Catholic Church
S1: as well. But now we need to find out who Mr.
S1: Wang Yi is. And he's not just a pastor, but
S1: he had training as an attorney. Teach us more about him.
S13: Yeah. He's a very fascinating person. Um, so before he
S13: became a Christian, he was trained as a legal scholar. Um,
S13: and he taught at the university in Chengdu. And, um, basically,
S13: he was a pretty prominent human rights advocate. Um, he
S13: was involved with a lot of the just advocacy and, um,
S13: movements in China. He was a prominent thinker. Um, he
S13: really was, you know, a pretty public intellectual. Um, he wrote, uh,
S13: avidly online, um, very active in blogging, uh, the Chinese
S13: blogging world and publishing in all sorts of different online
S13: journals and very active on Chinese social media. And, um, basically,
S13: he became a Christian and, um, very quickly began pastoring. And, um,
S13: he didn't stop writing or Are thinking, even after he
S13: became a Christian and, um, began wrestling through all the
S13: things that he'd been wrestling through, um, from a Christian perspective. And, um,
S13: just a very avid reader, um, when you read his writings,
S13: I mean, he just he's referencing all sorts of different things.
S13: And one of the things that I love, uh, reading
S13: his work is that, um, you know, on the same page,
S13: he'll reference, um, some aspect of Chinese pop culture, and
S13: then he'll turn around and he'll reference some, you know,
S13: you know, well-known, uh, 17th century political scholar from, um,
S13: Europe and somehow ties it all together. Um, so he's
S13: a very, um, he has a very fruitful mind. Um,
S13: he's been just, you know, his output is massive. What
S13: we have in the book is, frankly just a small
S13: portion of of his work and his writings. But what
S13: we've put in the book is, has, you know, we
S13: determined has is some of his most important writing.
S1: Yes, yes. For sure. Let me point out a couple
S1: of things that you write about in the book that
S1: I think is extremely interesting, clearly. Obviously, he's an empath.
S1: He cares for his fellow man. Uh, I would guess
S1: he's a mercy giver, because in April of 2005, they
S1: start hosting a Bible study in their apartment. He's not
S1: even a believer. But as a result of this, shortly
S1: after he comes to faith, he gets baptized. And then
S1: he starts to serve in a Bible study group. And
S1: that that's called the Early Reign Fellowship, which I'm guessing
S1: was that a forerunner for the church itself?
S13: Mhm. Yeah. Essentially that group grew into, um, the church,
S13: which eventually grew to be quite large, as I mentioned already. Um,
S13: they had um, somewhere around 500, 600 people. Um, attending
S13: or involved in their church, um, before they were shut
S13: down in 2018. So it grew very quickly. And um,
S13: and I mean, even that number, they had planted several churches. Um,
S13: so their impact was quite significant across, uh, Chengdu in
S13: southwest China.
S14: Wow.
S1: And the Lord is sovereign and perfect and knew what
S1: the future held for Wang. But, boy, before he found
S1: himself behind bars, God was using him in a powerful way.
S1: You point out that in 2006, he met with President
S1: George W Bush at the white House. He was representing
S1: China's Christian intellectuals. He was there in 2008 to attend
S1: the conference for Global Christians in Law, and was awarded
S1: the prize for the contribution to promoting religious freedom. So
S1: this is in his DNA. So I'm when you begin
S1: and as you say, this is just a small portion
S1: of the plethora of writings that he has done. But
S1: like you said, he's deep intellectual, so he can go
S1: from pop culture to a 17th century philosopher. And he
S1: moves both ways with fluidity because he's a deep thinker.
S1: He's also an advocate for the gospel. Even though he
S1: was a lawyer by training, he becomes quickly an advocate
S1: for the gospel. And his adherence to the centrality is
S1: it comes through so loud and clear. When you look
S1: at some of the titles of the pieces that he's written.
S1: The City of God on Earth, The Way of the
S1: cross and the life of the martyr. Uh, 20 Ways
S1: to persecution is God's way to shepherd us. I mean,
S1: these were all pre-prison, am I right?
S13: Yep. Yeah. We don't have any of his writings or.
S13: I mean, I don't know. We don't know much about
S13: his time in prison. So, um, if he has been writing,
S13: we don't have anything that that he's been writing.
S1: So you say that he prays for a Bible, a
S1: pen and a paper, and we don't even know if
S1: he can get that. So let's go back to the
S1: day of the arrest. How was he arrested? I read
S1: his letter, by the way, which you included in this
S1: book on the air shortly after he was arrested because
S1: his declaration of faithful disobedience should be tacked on the
S1: wall of every Christian home. And we should read that
S1: after our time in the world, every single day we
S1: sing I surrender all Sunday morning. Do we really know
S1: what it means to live that out? So talk about
S1: the facts behind his arrest. What happened?
S13: Yeah. Um, so he knew, I think, that, uh, he
S13: was heading towards an arrest, um, the summer of 2018.
S13: He had already spent 48 hours in jail. And, um,
S13: when he was released from that, I believe he really
S13: understood that something more significant was coming. So in the
S13: fall of 2018, uh, he that's when he wrote my
S13: declaration of faithful disobedience. He wrote it essentially to prepare
S13: a last statement. Um, should he be arrested? Um, knowing
S13: that he really wouldn't be given an opportunity to publicly
S13: defend himself, um, if he was sentenced, um, within, you know,
S13: the Chinese system. So, um, December 9th of 2018, um,
S13: he was arrested and not only him, but his wife, um,
S13: was arrested with him. Um, they have a teenage son
S13: who began, um, residing with Wang Yi's mother. And, um,
S13: all of the church leadership, uh, of early rain was
S13: also arrested. And then basically, over the ensuing weeks and months, um,
S13: roughly half of early Rain's members, um, faced some kind
S13: of arrest, harassment, um, interference of some kind ranging quite
S13: significantly from, you know, relatively small, um, interactions with the
S13: authorities to much, much larger and more difficult things, such
S13: as um, being essentially deported from Chengdu to other parts
S13: of China, um, being forcefully evicted from homes. Um, there
S13: were groups of mothers who weren't allowed to take their
S13: kids out to play. Um, it was a very intense, um,
S13: altercation essentially between the authorities and not only Wang Yi,
S13: but early reign. And I think that's important to note because, um,
S13: Wang Yi is serving a nine year jail sentence, and
S13: that is very intense. But his whole congregation has really
S13: suffered alongside with him and endured with him in this.
S1: Wow. Now, as I understand it, the wife has since
S1: been released. Is that correct?
S13: Yeah. Um, she's been released. She was released shortly before
S13: or shortly after he was sentenced. So he was arrested
S13: in December of 2018. He wasn't sentenced until December of 2019,
S13: so she was held for about a year. And then
S13: after his sentencing, she was released, which often happens. Um,
S13: they often don't want the the wife or any direct
S13: family members to be present at the trial or the sentencing. Um,
S13: so she was returned home. She has been under house arrest. Um,
S13: it has, um, obviously been a very difficult time for
S13: the family. Um, she has.
S1: Endured.
S13: Quite a lot. Yeah.
S1: And I understand that the son struggled. Um, is he
S1: doing better?
S13: I, I believe so, you know, I don't have any
S13: direct connection to them. So, um, my understanding is, is that, uh,
S13: both his wife and his son are physically. Well, um,
S13: I'm sure there are many things that they, you know,
S13: many hardships that they are enduring. Um, particularly I think
S13: one of probably the, the most difficult things is that
S13: they're very limited in their ability to connect with their
S13: friends and, you know, their former church members. And so
S13: I think they are very isolated in many ways, uh,
S13: relationally and emotionally and spiritually.
S1: Yeah. Exactly. Right. At one point in time, and this
S1: is where it gets confusing for so many people, is
S1: that if you look at basically the Chinese church, uh, the, the,
S1: the Three-Self, uh, there were actually Christians and I let
S1: me just stop in my sentence here, cumbersome though it
S1: may be. I have to tell you how many times
S1: I was reading the book. I kept thinking of the
S1: Confessing Church in Germany. I mean, there really is nothing
S1: new under the sun. So you had Christians who just
S1: went along with Nazism and decided that they would bow
S1: in acquiescence to what the regime was demanding. But then
S1: you had those who were the Confessing Church. And of course,
S1: we think immediately of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. There is a semblance
S1: of that in what's happening in China as well. When
S1: we come back in a conversation that has just flown by,
S1: I want you to highlight, if you'd be so kind, Hannah,
S1: some of the thoughts that how he draws the distinction
S1: that he's not being disobedient for disobedience sake, nor is
S1: he fighting for rights, but that he absolutely sees his
S1: disobedience as a part of the Gospel Commission. Now that's
S1: deep thinking theologically more with Hannah Nation right after this.
S1: In the book Faithful Disobedience, Hannah Nation writes that Wang
S1: Yi wrote his My Declaration of Faithful Disobedience in September
S1: and October of 2018. Gave it to the leadership of
S1: the early Reign Church and said distribute it if I'm
S1: held for more than 48 hours. That was the longest
S1: he had been held previous to the writing of my
S1: declaration of faithful disobedience. But then, in her own keen,
S1: insightful way, Hannah writes in his declaration, when he makes
S1: a sophisticated argument for disobedience not as a matter of
S1: civil withdrawal or disengagement, but rather as a matter of
S1: the church's allegiance to an alternative kingdom. The kingdom to
S1: which Yang Wang Yi gives allegiance is not a distant reality.
S1: It exists as truly and concretely here and now as
S1: it will in eternity. So a tiny part of his
S1: declaration says this I believe that this communist regime's persecution
S1: against the church is a greatly wicked and unlawful action.
S1: As a pastor of a Christian church, I must denounce
S1: this wickedness openly and severely. The calling that I've received
S1: requires me to use non-violent methods to disobey those human
S1: laws that disobey the Bible and God my Savior. Christ
S1: also requires me to joyfully bear all costs for disobeying
S1: wicked laws. Does Daniel come to mind? But this does
S1: not mean that my personal disobedience and disobedience of the
S1: church is in any way sense of fighting for rights
S1: or political activism in the form of civil disobedience, because
S1: I don't have the intention of changing any institutions or
S1: laws in China. As a pastor, the only thing I
S1: care about is the destruction of man's sinful nature by
S1: this faithful disobedience and the testimony it bears for the
S1: cross of Christ as a pastor. My disobedience is one
S1: part of the Gospel Commission. Christ's Great Commission requires of
S1: us great disobedience. The goal of disobedience is not to
S1: change the world, but to testify about another world. Hannah.
S1: It goes. I mean, it's so powerful. It should be
S1: one of those pieces preserved. Should the Lord tarry in
S1: the annals of church history forever and ever and ever?
S1: But you say that this is a this is nuanced because.
S1: Is he really talking about disobedience of a civil or
S1: a spiritual nature? Now, you've not only put the question
S1: out there, but I'm sure you've done a deep dive
S1: on what you think he's saying. So what's your answer?
S13: Well, I think, uh, I, you know, I revisit this
S13: question a lot myself. So, um, I mean, I think
S13: you've you've really highlighted the most important thing, which is that,
S13: you know, for Wangi, at the end of the day,
S13: what matters is the gospel going forward. And, um, he
S13: really essentially is saying anything that allows the gospel to
S13: go forward, um, is what we need to be committed to. And,
S13: and at times that will require us to disobey. Um,
S13: and I think one of the interesting parts of this essay.
S13: There are so many interesting parts of this essay.
S1: But.
S13: Um, at one point he kind of rhetorically is speaking to,
S13: you know, whatever officer is going to be arresting him
S13: and interrogating him. And, and he basically says, I'm not
S13: doing this to fight for my rights. I'm doing this
S13: for the good of your children. And I think that
S13: really gets, in a nutshell, his commitment to saying, um,
S13: the problem of persecution and the problem of attacking the
S13: church is not that it it causes the church or
S13: individuals within the church to suffer, is that it limits
S13: those who have not yet heard the gospel from hearing
S13: the gospel. And that's the tragedy of persecution is is
S13: the potential impact that it has on those who who
S13: don't believe, who don't know Christ. And so, um, he's
S13: very committed. And not only him, but really so many
S13: of the house church pastors that I know they're very
S13: committed to using their their time before the authorities to
S13: preach the gospel to the authorities that are arresting them.
S13: And I think this essay is a good example of,
S13: you know what? Wang Yi wanted his time before the
S13: authorities to be. We don't know. You know, we don't have,
S13: as I said, no one was in the courtroom, so
S13: we don't know what he was able to say. Um,
S13: but I'm confident that he wanted very deeply to be
S13: able to use that time to preach the gospel to
S13: those in power. Um, I think he has a great.
S13: You said this at the very beginning of the program.
S13: I think he has. He's a great empathy, even for
S13: those who are attacking him. Um, he's deeply concerned for
S13: those who are harming him. And it always makes me
S13: think back to the earliest Christians, um, to Paul and just, uh,
S13: their ability to recognize that, um, the people who are
S13: harmed the most in these situations are not the Christians
S13: being attacked, it's those who are attacking, um, their eternal
S13: souls are at stake. And, um, even in those situations,
S13: the call is to preach the gospel and to preach
S13: the hope of Jesus.
S1: Wow. Let me go back to your brilliant, insightful Pauline
S1: reference because I'm always fascinated. I have a million questions
S1: for the Lord when I get there. I'm so glad
S1: it's going to be an eternity, because I'm going to
S1: use most of it up asking questions. But one of
S1: them is, I'm absolutely fascinated by the verse that there
S1: were believers in Caesar's household. Now, the reason I bring
S1: that up is because my friend Bob Fu says that
S1: he thinks the greatest evangelistic work in China right now
S1: is being done from prison cells. So going exactly to
S1: the point that you just made. So he cares for
S1: those that are persecuting him, that those that are punishing him.
S1: He knows they need Jesus as much as anybody outside
S1: of those prison walls. So you think that if God
S1: has used and I'm this is some eisegesis here, and
S1: I will openly identify that. But if we can assume
S1: that the declaration of the gospel could have started from
S1: a prison cell and worked its way up to the
S1: chambers of Caesar and those who were his counselors, why
S1: could God not use a prison cell in China to
S1: begin to share the gospel with those who are the guards?
S1: Who are the those in authority keeping watch? And it
S1: begins to spread throughout China? We know beyond a shadow
S1: of a doubt, that there are those in authority in
S1: China who have accepted Christ. Obviously, they can't declare it.
S1: You know, when there's 10,000 people in a gathering together
S1: in front of President XI, but it doesn't mean they're
S1: not believers there. So the panel, you must come back
S1: because I've barely scratched the surface, and I want to
S1: get into the meat of so much of what he says.
S1: But you end where I think we should end today,
S1: which is how do we pray? I mean, so often.
S1: And it just I get mad at me as part
S1: of the Western church because my propensity is to say,
S1: giants in the land. I'm just a grasshopper. What can
S1: I do? I mean, the massive communist regime. What can
S1: I do? What can I do as a follower of
S1: Christ for my brothers and sisters in China and Wang
S1: Yi and his other members of the early church, early reign,
S1: church in particular.
S13: I would pray for their perseverance. They are people just
S13: like us. And if we think we would struggle, they
S13: do too. So pray for the perseverance.
S1: That's so spot on. Thank you for that. Oh, do
S1: I commend this to you. It's one of those thoughtful books,
S1: one of those rich books. It is a you've heard
S1: me say it before a banquet. You take it one
S1: course at a time. But just read these essays, stop
S1: and think and ask yourself, oh, God, would you give
S1: me the sufficient grace? Would you call me into persecution
S1: or to suffer for your name's sake? It's called faithful disobedience.
S1: I strongly recommend it. See you next time, friends.