S1: God's heart is tender and he loves you, and he's
S1: for you. And he wants you to feel that, not
S1: just have it in your head intellectually and know that
S1: and have your soul warmed. We do that by coming
S1: near like you do a fire and meditating on his
S1: mercy for us.
S2: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Well,
S2: what if your life were immersed in mercy? What kind
S2: of changes would that bring about for you and those
S2: around you? In a culture short on compassion, where we
S2: find little patience and kindness? We're going to look for
S2: the tender heart of God.
S3: Best selling author and Bible teacher Craig Allen Cooper is
S3: our guest. You may remember him from the conversation we
S3: had with him and his friend Walker Hayes some time ago.
S3: Craig wants to open our hearts to the beautiful, merciful
S3: heart of God. And if you go to building relationships.us.
S3: You'll see our featured resource overflowing mercies. Let's go to
S3: building relationships. Us and Gary. I think this is going
S3: to be a great conversation about building relationships that will
S3: affect every other relationship.
S4: Well, I think you're right, Chris, because let's face it,
S4: our relationship with God is going to impact everything else
S4: we do and all of our relationships. So I'm excited
S4: about our conversation today.
S3: Well, let me reintroduce our guest, Craig Allen Cooper is
S3: a USA today best selling author, keynote speaker. He co-wrote
S3: the book Glad You're Here with Grammy nominated country singer
S3: songwriter Walker Hayes. That book became a national bestseller. Craig
S3: served as one of the founding pastors of redeeming Grace
S3: Church in Franklin, Tennessee, and he's the founder of Glad
S3: You're Here Ministries. He lives near Nashville with his wife
S3: and four children, and our featured resource is the new book,
S3: Overflowing Mercies 100 meditations on the Tender Heart of God.
S3: You can find it at the website. Building Relationships us.
S4: Well, Craig, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S1: Thanks so much for having me, Doctor Chapman. I'm thrilled
S1: to be here. I think the world of you and
S1: your ministry with the five love languages and beyond. So
S1: I am just grateful that we get to talk.
S4: Well, we're glad you're here. You know, I often find
S4: that people write about what they struggle with. Uh, has
S4: there been a wound in your own life? Did you
S4: grow up struggling with seeing God as tender and merciful?
S1: You know, I grew up with a very strong culture
S1: of achievement. So I was straight a student all through
S1: high school. Valedictorian. Um, vice president of my senior class.
S1: My actually, my twin brother was the president. We flipped
S1: a coin. Uh, so we wouldn't run against each other.
S1: We flipped a coin. He won the coin toss, ran for, uh,
S1: for for president. I ran for vice president. But, um,
S1: I think I formed a really performance based mindset growing up,
S1: and I. I kind of adopted the attitude, you know,
S1: of that for nearly every aspect of my life, including spiritually,
S1: I would say, the church that we were a part
S1: of as a, as a family, you know, focused more
S1: on what we have or what we haven't done for God,
S1: then on what God has done for us. And so
S1: it was it was it was somewhat legalistic. And I
S1: wasn't a believer at the time. And and I was
S1: just dead set on excelling at everything. That was kind
S1: of my, you know, little G. God. Um, what I
S1: was living for, uh, was achievement. And so I actually
S1: became a leader in the youth group, uh, even though
S1: I wasn't a true believer there and around, um, you know,
S1: 17 or 18 years old, through a series of unfortunate events, um,
S1: God began to really help me see my need for
S1: him and for the righteousness of another, the righteousness of Jesus. And, uh,
S1: so I guess you could say it was a series
S1: of unfortunate events because I came to faith in Christ
S1: as a college freshman, uh, through the outreach of a
S1: campus ministry, as a man was preaching on Jesus conversation
S1: with Nicodemus. And I saw myself in Nicodemus and how
S1: I just needed life from above and life in Christ,
S1: and it completely changed my life. So, yeah, I that's
S1: kind of what I walked through. And, um, struggled initially
S1: was seeing God as as tender and merciful, and I
S1: do now. Yeah. So.
S4: Well, what motivated you to write the book, this one?
S4: Overflowing Mercies.
S1: There's, uh. So Mark Twain said the best way to
S1: cheer yourself up is by trying to cheer somebody else up,
S1: and I. I think there's a lot of truth in that.
S1: And I struggle myself with discouragement. I wrestle with weariness. Um,
S1: and I've, I've really tried to encourage and comfort other
S1: people with the comfort that I've received from the Lord. So,
S1: I mean, I wrote it really to cheer myself up.
S1: And by trying to cheer other people up, I've read, uh,
S1: if you're familiar with Spurgeon's morning and evening, um, that devotional,
S1: I've read that alongside my Bible for nearly three decades,
S1: and it's really served my soul. And I've often thought
S1: I'd love to be able to serve people the way Mr.
S1: Spurgeon has served me in just a few minutes of
S1: being able to take people immediately to the heart of
S1: God and recenter them on on eternal realities. And so
S1: that's that's really, you know, why I wrote the book?
S4: Well, I think it's going to accomplish that purpose. Yes.
S4: Let's talk about the cover of the book. It looks
S4: like a waterfall. How is that imagery, uh, resonate with you?
S1: Uh, I, I actually requested a waterfall for the front.
S1: They always ask, you know, you know, do you have
S1: any ideas or whatnot? And Eric Peterson designed the cover.
S1: I think he did an absolutely stunning job. It's beautiful. Um,
S1: the book is great, even if it's just sitting there
S1: on a table. Uh, it looks so beautiful. But I
S1: requested a waterfall because, um, I believe God's mercies are
S1: new every morning, and they're inexhaustibly full of power, and
S1: they're more like a deluge than a drip. You know,
S1: it's more like a mighty waterfall than it is. Like
S1: a sprinkle. Um, and I, I believe God restrains his
S1: wrath with greater might than the Hoover Dam. While all
S1: his mercies fall on us with more glory than Niagara Falls.
S1: And I've been to Niagara Falls, and it's glorious. My
S1: daughter Penelope said she. She's my youngest daughter. She said, daddy,
S1: are we in a dream? This is my favorite place
S1: I've ever been. And so I was thinking about Niagara Falls,
S1: and I was thinking about just the refreshment. And that
S1: in that mist and that glory. And and I just said, hey,
S1: can you can you do something? And they blew me
S1: away with what they came up with it. I think
S1: it's awesome.
S4: Well, that's great. Now, Chris mentioned, uh, an earlier book
S4: that you wrote with Walker Hayes entitled Glad You're Here. Uh,
S4: for those who didn't hear that story, uh, take us
S4: through that. And what happened between the two of you
S4: and tell us how, uh, perhaps this book that we're
S4: talking about today may be tied to to that event
S4: in that book?
S1: Yeah. Yeah. So? So, Walker. He's a country music star. Um,
S1: he wrote the song fancy, like. So, you know, many
S1: people have heard that. Yeah, we fancy, like, Applebee's. I
S1: can't sing, but that's it. There was a dance, it
S1: went viral, all that stuff. And. But when we met, uh,
S1: he was a he was an atheist. Um, he didn't
S1: want to have anything to do with church. Didn't believe
S1: in Jesus. And, uh, you know, he was kind of
S1: struggling with a, with a fledgling music career. And I
S1: was a church planting pastor, and I was struggling with
S1: my own sense of discouragement. And I was wondering, you know,
S1: if my life was making any difference to anybody around me,
S1: and you would never have put the two of us
S1: on paper together to be best friends. But that's exactly
S1: what the Lord did. And he just knit our families together. And, uh,
S1: and then in a time of need, after Walker lost
S1: a record deal and their family van was repossessed, we
S1: secretly gave them our van. We didn't share that with anybody. And, uh,
S1: even my twin brother who lives ten minutes from us, we,
S1: you know, we kept it a secret. And, you know,
S1: Walker felt like he'd never adequately thanked me for that gift.
S1: So he wrote a song about it. And the song
S1: is called Craig, which is my first name. And it
S1: really highlights our friendship and my relationship with Jesus, which
S1: is remarkable because he wrote that song as an atheist,
S1: as an unbeliever. And then after they lost their seventh child, Oakley,
S1: in childbirth, um, the Lord really drew near to Walker. And,
S1: you know, I officiated the funeral. We held Oakley in
S1: the hospital, um, and walked with them through that time
S1: of of pain and grief. And the Lord drew near
S1: to my friend, and he came to faith in Christ.
S1: And and if you read Glad you're here, it's really, um,
S1: how the gospel transforms lives through the gift of friendship.
S1: Both both mine and his. And, you know, people, many
S1: people have said they see the hands and feet of
S1: Jesus at at work through. Glad you're here. And I
S1: wanted them to feel his heart through overflowing mercy. So
S1: if you see the hands and feet of Jesus and
S1: glad you're here, you'll you will sense his heart in
S1: this new devotional. Overflowing mercy. Yeah.
S4: Well, Craig, uh, there's probably someone listening right now who
S4: doesn't disagree at all about God's love and God's mercy,
S4: but they don't feel that they feel far away from
S4: forgiveness and kindness. What do you say to that person?
S1: Um, well, I, I want to say the Lord loves you.
S1: He loves you and I our hearts. I think they
S1: need to be warmed by God's love. Uh, just like
S1: in the dead of winter, our bodies need to be
S1: warmed by a fire, you know, or warm blanket. Um,
S1: we need to get near it and add the kindling and,
S1: you know, place the wood, stoke the flame. Um, and
S1: we do that in our souls by meditating on God's
S1: love and his mercy for us. And that that's how
S1: he reveals himself to us. He says, the Lord, the Lord,
S1: the gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding
S1: in steadfast love and mercy. Um. And God's heart is tender, uh,
S1: toward you. I would share with that person. And and
S1: he loves you. He's for you. And he wants you
S1: to feel that, not just have it in your head
S1: intellectually and know that, but to feel it in your
S1: heart and have your soul warmed by his presence. And
S1: I think we we do that by meditating, you know,
S1: coming near it like you do a fire and meditating
S1: on on his mercy for us.
S4: Yeah. Now you write this and I'm quoting here. You
S4: say you are relentlessly on the mind of God, and
S4: you are incessantly in the heart of God. How do
S4: you know that?
S1: Yeah, yeah, well, we know it because he he has
S1: said it. And the Lord has continually, consistently over and
S1: over and over again communicated his love for us in
S1: the scriptures and in sending His Son for us. I,
S1: I think of where it says, I've loved you with
S1: an everlasting love. Therefore I continue my faithfulness to you.
S1: And God so loved the world that he gave his
S1: only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish
S1: but have eternal life. And this is how we know
S1: what love is, that Christ laid down his life for us.
S1: And the fact that the sun came up this morning,
S1: you know, in Chicago and Nashville, Tennessee, and all over
S1: the world, that's an expression of God's love and his
S1: tender mercy. You know, he causes the sun to shine on,
S1: on all, you know, the righteous and the unrighteous and
S1: and the rain to fall for all. And he is continually,
S1: continually showing and proving his love for us. But there's
S1: no greater proof of that than the cross of Calvary,
S1: in that the Son of God came and lived the
S1: perfect life that we could never live, died as a substitute,
S1: received in full the wrath and the punishment that we deserve,
S1: and now is raised from the dead, and is seated
S1: at the right hand of the throne of God, and
S1: ever lives to make intercession for us. We know God
S1: loves us, and because he's proven it on the cross. Yeah.
S4: You know, people have asked me through the years what
S4: is God's love language? Um, I read the Bible again,
S4: the whole thing again. God speaks all five love languages fluently.
S4: Old Testament, New Testament. Mhm.
S1: Yes he.
S4: Does. So as you said, we know he loves us
S4: because he's revealed it to us. Now this particular book
S4: is a devotional. So there are 100 chapters uh 100 days.
S4: So tell us how you structured the book and how
S4: you envision people using it.
S1: Yeah. So the way it's structured is each entry has
S1: a verse and, and then it's followed by a meditation
S1: on God's heart for us. And then that's followed by, uh,
S1: some questions for reflection and, and then a prayer that
S1: you can make your own. And so you could spend
S1: two and a half, three minutes in it, or you
S1: could spend 20 minutes or 2 hours, you know, in,
S1: in one particular one, there's verses you can look up
S1: and all of that. Um, but I envision people would
S1: use it, uh, in three ways. One is their own
S1: personal devotions. So really drawing near to the flame of
S1: God's love so that your soul is lit on fire
S1: by his tender affection. And you do that in, you know,
S1: your own personal communion with God, uh, alongside your Bible,
S1: just like I've said I've done with morning and evening
S1: for years. And the second way is, uh, family devotions. I,
S1: you know, that's hard for people at times to know,
S1: how do I lead my family spiritually? And, you know,
S1: we found years ago that we're we sit down together.
S1: I've got four kids. Um, and so the six of
S1: us would sit down together for dinners, you know, regularly, uh,
S1: most nights. And and I found, well, we're all here.
S1: I have, we have a captive audience. And so we
S1: would eat, we'd ask questions, you know, what are your
S1: highs and lows of the day and all of that, and, um,
S1: let everybody share. And then at some point, at just
S1: at the end of it, as we're done, you know,
S1: I would pull out a resource and I'd say, hey,
S1: we're going to go through this and have somebody read
S1: the verse, somebody read the meditation. Um, somebody asked the
S1: question and it, you know, it might be seven minutes. Um,
S1: or it could be, you know, 20 minutes or sometimes
S1: it lingers longer, but in family devotions where you're already together. Um,
S1: I really wrote the book thinking about that, too. You know,
S1: where where that could serve people. And the third way is,
S1: is really small group enrichment and encouragement. Um, I like
S1: having something when I'm leading a small group to just
S1: kind of center us all within, you know, three minutes. Um,
S1: and so people could use it in those three ways.
S4: Yeah. When you, uh, with your family, uh, had those
S4: devotionals at dinner, did you have the devotional before you
S4: ate or after you ate?
S1: That's a great question, actually. You know, you just like anything,
S1: you always try stuff and figure out what works and
S1: figure out what doesn't work. Um, what we landed on
S1: that has worked really well for us is that we
S1: all eat the dinner together, and. And then I pull
S1: it out once, you know, it's clear everybody's kind of done. I,
S1: I will pull out a book or a resource and
S1: then and I and what I found I've got older
S1: kids now so. I mean, now the age we're in,
S1: I have a 21 year old daughter who's about to
S1: graduate from college. I've got an 18 year old son
S1: who's about to graduate from high school and go to college.
S1: And then I've got a 16 year old who's just
S1: now driving, and I've got a 13 year old. She's
S1: about to turn 13, um, in just a little bit.
S1: And so, you know, what we have found now is
S1: I can hand the resource to somebody and say, hey,
S1: why don't you, you know, Penelope, why don't you read
S1: the verse for us? And then Charlotte, you know, would
S1: you would you read these paragraphs right here and then Joshua,
S1: would you read the questions? And, you know, Chris, can
S1: you ask some questions? And and uh, in doing that,
S1: we get everybody involved. Yeah. And, um, just let it be.
S1: I'm trying to normalize spiritual leadership in the home so
S1: it doesn't feel weird. You know, it just is normal.
S1: It's it's what? You know, it's kind of, hey, we're
S1: going to talk about the Lord. Um, and that's been
S1: really effective for us. It's been. I'm grateful for that.
S4: Yeah, yeah. And my children say that one of the
S4: most meaningful memories they have growing up was those devotional
S4: times each night, you know, with the whole family together, participating,
S4: as you say, at their age level. So, um, I
S4: just didn't want you sitting there reading the Bible, and
S4: the food's getting cold. Okay.
S1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta eat, you gotta eat.
S4: That's right.
S1: You gotta eat. Yeah. Well, let's.
S4: Talk about the power of a devotional life. Now, you're
S4: not saying that God loves you more if you read
S4: the Bible more, right?
S1: Right. Oh, yes. Right. God's love for us is an
S1: everlasting love. It's before we did anything good or bad,
S1: you know, it's a steadfast love. It doesn't fluctuate. It
S1: doesn't change. It's not like the weather. Cold one day
S1: and warm the next. And it's an eternal love. You know,
S1: you can't. You can't earn it, but you also can't
S1: lose it either. It's. Oh, it is just it's a
S1: beautiful thing that his love is fixed, you know? And I, um,
S1: I'm so grateful for that. Now, I will say his
S1: love that doesn't fluctuate. That doesn't change our feeling of
S1: his love, our our grasp of it, our sense of
S1: it that can fluctuate. Just like, you know, if there's
S1: a fire blazing in one room and you're and you're
S1: outside and you're not near it, um, you're not going
S1: to feel that warmth. But if you come inside, you
S1: shut the door, you grab your blanket and you get
S1: near the fire. Uh, you'll feel it. The fire was
S1: always there. It's burning, you know, but you've got to
S1: get near it. And so. Yeah, absolutely. God does not
S1: love you more or less, you know, based on your performance. Um,
S1: and and thank the Lord for that because we would
S1: all we would all, uh, be struggling big time. But
S1: our sense of his love can fluctuate, and we want
S1: to be near it. We want to sense it and
S1: feel it.
S4: Yeah, absolutely. And the more time we spend consciously with God,
S4: the more we sense his presence and his direction. Yeah. Yes.
S4: Makes a lot of sense.
S1: Yes.
S4: Um, now, Craig, you alluded to this, uh, just a
S4: bit earlier, but what is your own personal devotional life
S4: look like?
S1: Yeah. So, um, I, I read through the Bible each year.
S1: I use a, a one year Bible plan. And I
S1: found that years ago. Uh, I think you can get
S1: it on one year. Bible online.com. Um, and it I
S1: read through the Proverbs, I start in Proverbs and and
S1: because it's the shortest entry, it's usually like one verse
S1: and I and I and I pray, I try to
S1: pray it back and ask God for wisdom and and
S1: ask him for understanding and skill and, and living a
S1: life that, that is honoring to him. And then, uh,
S1: and then I move into the Psalms and, and I,
S1: I usually read it and try to pray through that too.
S1: And I follow this plan. Um, and it just really
S1: helps me that way, I don't think, what am I
S1: supposed to be reading? I had a couple of years
S1: where I didn't have any plan at all, and I
S1: realized that wasn't, uh, that wasn't serving me. So I
S1: go from Proverbs to Psalms, and then I go into
S1: the New Testament, and then I end with the, uh,
S1: the Old Testament. And sometimes, you know it if I
S1: if I'm pressed for time, I just read the Proverbs,
S1: Psalms in the New Testament, and then I'll read in
S1: a larger chunk the Old Testament, you know, when I
S1: have more time, you know, if I'm traveling or whatnot. But, um,
S1: I try to just breathe in Scripture and then breathe
S1: out prayer. And that's been my practice, um, now for
S1: over 25 years. So it's I mean, I've read through
S1: the Bible, I think I'm on my. 27th trip. And, um,
S1: it's been a blessing. And oh, man, I'm so grateful.
S4: That kind of reading devotional reading of the Bible is,
S4: is really kind of more like having a conversation with God,
S4: isn't it? Because you're listening to him, but you're also
S4: talking back, you know, you're responding to him.
S1: So yeah, I was faced with a major decision recently,
S1: and I didn't sleep well the night before, and I
S1: was really wrestling. I took some notes down and whatnot,
S1: and then I came into my home office that next
S1: morning and I said, Lord, I really need to hear
S1: from you right now. Would you please help me and
S1: speak to me? And this doesn't always happen like this.
S1: It doesn't. But this was a remarkable moment. But I
S1: was in Exodus 36 and in the first, you know,
S1: seven verses or so, the Lord just hugged me. And
S1: it was it was it was remarkable. Um, because I
S1: was trying to, you know, I was faced with a
S1: decision about whether whether or not I go all in
S1: with a particular, um, ministry role that would have been
S1: by vocational whatnot. And, and the Lord really spoke to
S1: me this part where, you know, it's it talks about him, uh,
S1: saying they have more than enough for the work of
S1: the sanctuary. And so Moses restrained people from coming and
S1: bringing more gifts. And I felt like the Holy Spirit
S1: was saying, you know, they they're okay. They don't need
S1: any more. And I'm restraining you from from bringing in
S1: your gifts right now because I have something else for
S1: you and something else for them. And I was able
S1: to make the decision full of faith. Um, and and
S1: that was it. And that was just my regular reading. Yeah. Um,
S1: I was blown away.
S4: God meets us where we are.
S3: Yes, but that was hard. It sounds like Craig. That
S3: was that was a hard process to be in because
S3: you're trying to. If God had just spoken to you
S3: and said you've.
S5: Got to do this.
S3: Then you you could take that and go. But you're
S3: having to live through the process and the struggle of
S3: not knowing and having to walk by faith rather than sight. Right?
S1: Oh yeah, 100%. And yeah, it is a walk of faith,
S1: isn't it? It's, you know, we we wish that the
S1: Lord would just tell us everything at times to do this.
S1: Don't do that. You know, that was a moment where, uh,
S1: the scriptures just came and grabbed a hold of me,
S1: laid a hold on me, ran after me, and, uh.
S1: And really, I felt like the Holy Spirit hugged me
S1: and said, you know, it's okay. And, uh, this is good. Yeah.
S3: Don't you think part of the part of the gold
S3: of that is being able to, with devotions, being able
S3: to slow down, being able to say, this is really
S3: important in my life, I'm going to I'm going to
S3: give some time to this, even though I've got a
S3: to do list that's longer, you know, I've got to
S3: do this and this and this. We're so hurried. We
S3: got so much technology, you know, social media and everything.
S3: But to be able to stiller and quiet our heart
S3: and allow God to speak, I mean, that's a that's
S3: a lost art in a lot of ways.
S1: Yeah. We live in a society. There's so much noise,
S1: there's so much noise. And, you know, most people I
S1: think are living with their cell phones next to their head,
S1: you know, as they go to bed at night. And
S1: so the first thing is you pick your cell phone
S1: up and, and then you open it up and you've
S1: got notifications and you've got noise. And if you're immediately
S1: met with all of that, it's, it's it's very challenging
S1: to quiet your heart and to, you know, come into
S1: a place of, of communion with the Lord and rest.
S1: And so, um, I, I agree with you completely. We,
S1: we just need probably more than ever to be become
S1: skilled at, uh, at quiet and communion, um, you know,
S1: with the Lord and, and and just resting in his
S1: presence and, you know, going to the scriptures and breathing
S1: that in. Yeah.
S4: Greg, this is a huge question. But, uh, what encouragement
S4: would you give to a young believer or someone who's
S4: looking to grow in their relationship with the Lord?
S1: Oh, yeah, I, I would say God wants to have
S1: a vibrant relationship with you, and he he wants you
S1: to sense and know and feel his love. Um, in
S1: whatever you're going through, my encouragement would be, uh, tell
S1: it to the Lord, tell it to the Lord. That
S1: was one of the biggest pieces of of of counsel
S1: that I got in, uh, my Christian walk or in.
S1: My pastoral ministry. Um, was was those five words, um, and,
S1: you know, we were faced with a, with a moment of, uh,
S1: of challenge and whatnot, and I was, uh, going to
S1: an older believer asking for his counsel, and he said,
S1: here's my encouragement, tell it to the Lord. And so I, uh,
S1: like you would your best friend so many of us
S1: have had. Just think about somebody who you've been really
S1: close with. And you know what marked that relationship? I
S1: would say one of those things was communication. You know,
S1: you talked a lot. You shared a lot. Um, and
S1: so I would encourage, you know, a younger believer to,
S1: you know, have hear from the Lord through the scriptures,
S1: you know, go to God and study the scriptures and
S1: meditate on them, and then just go tell him everything,
S1: whether you're in your car driving, some people are going
S1: to think you're crazy, but everybody has AirPods these days.
S1: And and people talk on the phone. And so people
S1: walk and they're usually talking to somebody, uh, at least
S1: in my neighborhood or listening to a podcast or whatnot. Um,
S1: so people, you know, they don't know whether you're talking
S1: to a friend or you're talking to the Lord. But
S1: so just just put your AirPods in, turn some music
S1: on and go tell it all to the Lord. Yeah.
S1: That'll help.
S4: Yeah, that's for sure. That's a good starting place. Absolutely. Yeah.
S4: You know, what about the Christian who has read the Bible,
S4: you know, kind of all their lives, they grew up
S4: in the church and they, they have read the Bible
S4: kind of regularly, maybe not every day, but they read it.
S4: But but they just don't feel God's love and God's mercy.
S6: Mhm.
S1: Yeah. Yeah. Uh well I've been there, which is one
S1: of the reasons why, um, I wrote this book is
S1: I want them to be encouraged and comforted and strengthened
S1: and to feel and sense God's love and his mercy.
S1: I think, you know, life is really hard and we
S1: air when we take the hard stuff of life and
S1: we equate it with the heart of God as if
S1: he delights somehow in our troubles. He clearly does not.
S1: But he he says, you know, in this world, take heart,
S1: in this world you'll have trouble. But I've overcome the world.
S1: And he wants, um, us to take all the stuff
S1: that's going on in our lives and the hard stuff
S1: and the discouraging things and the hope deferred and the
S1: and the, uh, you know, even the sense of like, wow,
S1: I feel numb right now and just take it all
S1: back to him and and ask him to by the
S1: Holy Spirit, do in us, uh, show us his love
S1: and and strengthen us in his grace. And so yeah,
S1: that's I, I would encourage the older believer, just keep
S1: going back to the wells of of life in Jesus.
S4: I talk about technology for a moment. What do you
S4: think social media has done to people's relationship with God?
S1: Mhm. Yeah. There's all kinds of books and articles and
S1: everything that are being written about the effect of social
S1: media in our hearts and our minds and our lives
S1: right now. It's a real deal. And I and, uh,
S1: mental health and, and I, I think we were wise
S1: to pay attention to that. Um, I, you know, my
S1: encouragement would be that there is a world of difference
S1: between table connection and tablet connection. You know, table connection
S1: is the, uh, is face to face, eye to eye,
S1: heart to heart, soul to soul, person to person, you know,
S1: image bearers before God, connecting around a table of grace
S1: and mercy where there's acceptance not based on your achievements
S1: or your accolades, you know, or your accomplishments or your performance,
S1: but just because of who you are, you know? And
S1: there's a difference between that. And then the tablet, um,
S1: you know, or social media and we I think we
S1: crave acceptance. You know, I think we, we crave a
S1: sense of, you know, am I am I loved even
S1: though I'm known, you know, and, and and I think
S1: that that can be like a, um, what do you
S1: call it, a mirage or whatnot in the desert, you know,
S1: and where it just looks like, oh, there's water right there.
S1: And so you rush to it and then and then
S1: you just have sand in your hands. Yeah. So I,
S1: I think we've got to really look at the effect
S1: that social media has on our souls and understand that
S1: that's not real connection in the way that it is.
S1: You know, when you're when you're one on one or
S1: around a table of grace or in a small group
S1: or in a church, you know, yeah, we we all
S1: need grace in this, in this regard, don't we? Yeah.
S4: Yeah. You're right. And the thing is that there's always
S4: something online.
S1: There is. Yeah, yeah.
S4: But if we can realize there's always something in the Bible. Yeah.
S1: Yeah. That's good. Uh. So good.
S4: Well, you know, you talked a little bit about this
S4: earlier and maybe you wouldn't have anything else to say
S4: about it, but the how you utilized, uh, you know,
S4: books like this, the one you've written here, devotional books
S4: in your family setting. Uh, you know, you mentioned how
S4: you allow each family member to read parts of the devotion,
S4: that sort of thing. I can see that as being
S4: a really, really positive use of a book like this.
S1: I hope so, yeah, I hope it we we actually
S1: went through, um, Nancy Guthrie's dinner table devotions and it
S1: was really helpful for us. We did it for, you know,
S1: a season. It was funny because it was one year,
S1: but it took us probably three years to get through it. Yeah,
S1: but it's titled Dinner Table, you know, devotions. And I
S1: loved it because whether it was on my Kindle, you know, or. Right,
S1: we we started we have both copies. We've got the
S1: physical copy. We also have the Kindle because, you know,
S1: when you travel and whatnot. That was a bigger book.
S1: And yeah. And I, I wanted to be able to
S1: just have it wherever we were. And it gets everybody
S1: in the family involved. It gets it gets your focus
S1: up on the Lord. And there's questions that are already
S1: provided for you. I don't know about everybody else, but
S1: when I'm done with a with my day, you know,
S1: and it's 6:00 at night or seven or whatnot, I'm tired.
S1: And so if somebody's already prepared it for me, uh,
S1: this really helpful just to, you know, throw a question around,
S1: bat it around. And and so that's what we did
S1: in overflowing mercies. That's what I did. Yeah.
S4: I think that's a part of a healthy Christian family.
S4: I really do. Now, you also mentioned small groups and
S4: talk a moment about the value of being in a
S4: small group study of the Bible.
S1: Yeah. The you know, we are more connected as a
S1: culture than ever because of what we, you know, talked
S1: about with social media, but it's the loneliest culture ever. Yeah.
S1: And that's because there's just a world of difference between
S1: being connected on your on your phone or Facebook or
S1: Instagram or, you know, Twitter or TikTok or whatnot. That's
S1: very different than than being connected with somebody who knows
S1: the real you, who loves you and who accepts you. And, um, I,
S1: you know, I'm reading a book now and that's talking.
S1: It's it's all about achievement culture, but it's talking about
S1: how friends, um, really help your mental health. And, you know,
S1: for people to, to be able to have a consistent rhythm,
S1: you know, where you just know. Every. Yeah. Every Monday
S1: night we're doing this, you know, we're, um, every, every
S1: other Wednesday night, it's the it's this. And and you
S1: sometimes you have to make yourself go, you know, because
S1: you're like, I just want to sit in my PJs
S1: and watch jeopardy, you know? Yeah, but, you know, but
S1: you make yourself, uh, go. And then I've never walked
S1: away from a small group where I'm where I've that
S1: I have kind of pushed myself towards going to where
S1: I've thought. Ah, I really regret that use of time. Um,
S1: you know, it's, it's I, I'm always appreciative grateful for
S1: it and, and it and it's a safeguard and feeds
S1: and nourishes our souls in ways that, uh, that don't
S1: happen in other ways. Yeah. Yeah.
S4: I've always found that I personally grow far more in
S4: my relationship with God when I'm in a small group
S4: like that. Yes, there's something about sharing ideas and hearing
S4: other people's ideas and where they are in their journey
S4: and all it just, I think, I think the Christian
S4: life was meant to be lived in community. Yeah. Not
S4: not just not in isolation.
S1: Oh, I agree.
S4: Now, in each of the devotions in this book, Overcoming Mercies, uh,
S4: there is a section to reflect on what the person
S4: has just read. And one of those, uh, I'm going
S4: to quote. Where do you see marks of God's grace, mercy, goodness,
S4: and love in your life right now? So I want
S4: to ask you that question. Where do you see the
S4: marks of God's grace and mercy and goodness and love
S4: in your life right now?
S1: I love it. I feel like I'm part of your family.
S1: And I wrote I wrote that question, and you and
S1: you and you turned it on me. I appreciate that. No,
S1: I love it, I, I do, um, I, I see
S1: God's grace and kindness and mercy to me, um, when
S1: he's opening up the scriptures to me in ways that
S1: I just I'm kind of in a season where I'm
S1: stretched right now and I really need that encouragement and
S1: that comfort. And, you know, that's that's happening on a
S1: consistent basis. I know I mentioned that X is 36.
S1: That wasn't, you know, but a few weeks ago. So
S1: that was a that was a like a pivotal mark, uh,
S1: for me. But even this morning as I was reading
S1: in the scriptures, I'm, I'm, I'm pulling it up right now. Um,
S1: what what struck me when I was in Psalm 94
S1: and it says, if the Lord had not been my help,
S1: my soul would have lived in the land of silence
S1: when I thought, my foot slips. Your steadfast love, O Lord,
S1: held me up. And when the cares of my heart
S1: are many, your consolations cheer my soul. And I just.
S1: I read those three verses and I just had a
S1: moment with God where I thought about moments where I.
S1: I would have slipped, you know, if he hadn't held
S1: me up and and how I, I would have lived
S1: in the land of silence. But he but his steadfast love,
S1: you know, surrounded me. And then I, I thought, you know,
S1: what are the cares I'm carrying right now? And and
S1: how his consolations cheer my soul. And I was just
S1: able to really, you know, commune with the Lord on that.
S1: So I am sensing grace there. And then also on
S1: Sunday mornings, we. I'm serving in a church right now
S1: as the interim pastor for preaching and teaching at 12
S1: Church in Winchester, Tennessee. And, um, people are coming to
S1: faith in Christ. And it's just amazing to, to watch.
S1: And we've just baptized, you know, four individuals, which was
S1: just incredible. And, uh, and the stories of people saying,
S1: the Lord's really meeting me. Uh, it's been a it's
S1: been a blessing. So all of that is grace. All
S1: of that is mercy. All that's goodness and love from above. Yeah, yeah.
S4: Talk to the pastor who preaches about mercy, you know,
S4: and grace. But he really feels burned out, you know,
S4: just kind of depleted of energy. And he's really going
S4: through a valley. And you've been a pastor, you're now
S4: an interim pastor, among other things, that you're doing. What
S4: would you say to that pastor?
S1: Oh, I'd give him a hug. That's the. That's the
S1: first thing I would do. I'd say, brother, I'm. You
S1: are loved. And I have been right there. I've been
S1: right there. I know what that's like. Um, I've served
S1: in some form of pastoral ministry for 20 plus years. Uh,
S1: about half that time was vocationally in a larger church
S1: in East Tennessee. And then, you know, the remainder of
S1: the time has been by vocationally. Um, as I helped
S1: plant a church, uh, and and then now serving, you know,
S1: with this with 12 church. And I know what it
S1: feels like to feel, um, depleted and, and and I've experienced, uh,
S1: about three major moments of burnout. And one was early on,
S1: you know, my early 20s and, uh, you know, it's
S1: I what I would say is pray for good friends.
S1: And pursue good friends and, you know, find your people, um,
S1: who you can be open and honest with. And, uh,
S1: there's this group called refuge that I went to, um,
S1: last year, and I'm going again this year, and. That
S1: has been a a huge means of grace in my life,
S1: because the I'm on text chains now where guys are
S1: just encouraging one another and and you know, they'll ask
S1: you how you're doing and they really want to know
S1: and you know and then and then there's been coffee
S1: meetings that outside of that there's been birthday celebrations, you know,
S1: that have happened from that, that were people who who,
S1: you know, the Bible talks about, rejoice with those who
S1: rejoice and weep with those who weep. And that that
S1: obviously is is a command for us to do. Um,
S1: but also it stands to reason that, you know, we
S1: need to have those who are able to rejoice with us,
S1: you know, in seasons of of abundance and grace and
S1: prosperity in your soul and whatnot. But then also, um,
S1: weep with us as well. So I, I would say,
S1: you know, keep going back to the Lord and in
S1: that well of mercy and grace, and then find good
S1: friends that you that that can walk with you, um,
S1: through the valley and in the valley, and you'll get
S1: on the other side. Yeah.
S4: That's great advice. You know, I think there are a
S4: number of pastors who really don't have a close personal
S4: friend with whom they can be honest and open, and
S4: they're afraid to share with people in the church because
S4: they don't want them to be discouraged, you know? Yeah. Uh,
S4: but I think if pastors can reach out, you know,
S4: to other pastors, uh, I mean, even to pastors who
S4: are going through difficult times sharing it with each other,
S4: it's going to help both of them. You know, it does. Yeah.
S4: It does. Yeah.
S1: You feel less alone, don't you? Definitely feel less alone.
S1: And you feel bolstered and known. Yeah. And it's, you know,
S1: find that safe place. Yeah. That's good.
S4: Now, there's one devotional in your book that's titled nevertheless,
S4: and you say there's an ocean of tender mercy in
S4: that word nevertheless. Unpack that for us.
S1: I love that word. I love that word because it's
S1: it's right in Psalm 73. You know, Psalm 7323, it says, nevertheless,
S1: I'm continually with you. You hold my right hand. You
S1: guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will receive
S1: me to glory. And it's a it's a psalm of Asaph.
S1: And you know, he's explaining in the Psalm that he
S1: was he was embittered in soul. Uh, he was envying,
S1: you know, the prosperity of the wicked. He was doubting
S1: God's goodness, his sovereignty, his wisdom. He was being wise
S1: in his own eyes, and he was acting with, you know,
S1: arrogance toward the Lord and complaining, you know, in the
S1: bitterness of his soul. And he was he was doubting
S1: God's care and his compassion and his control and and, uh,
S1: God in his mercy, opens Asaph's heart in his mind
S1: as he as he sought the Lord in the sanctuary.
S1: And and God enabled him to see the his circumstances
S1: from an eternal perspective. And then that's when everything changed
S1: for Asaph. And he was convicted, you know, of of
S1: his attitude of unbelief and all of that and convinced
S1: of God's grace. And that's where that verse comes, because
S1: it says, when my soul was embittered, when I was
S1: pricked in my heart, I was brutish and ignorant. I
S1: was like a beast toward you. Nevertheless, nevertheless, I'm continually
S1: with you. You hold my right hand, you guide me
S1: with your counsel, and afterward you will receive me to glory.
S1: So nevertheless is, is, is that God does not treat
S1: us as our sins deserve. He he is. He is
S1: not repaying us, you know, according to our transgressions. He's he.
S1: He knows our frame. He knows exactly how we're made.
S1: He knows all the yuck inside and and all of that.
S1: And nevertheless, he just loves us. Yeah, he loves us.
S1: And he's going to receive us into glory through faith
S1: in Jesus, his son. And so that's one of my
S1: favorite words. I'm glad you I'm glad you asked that. Yeah,
S1: that is an amazing word, isn't it?
S4: Well, I want to I want to say to a
S4: listener who's really discouraged today, go get your Bible and
S4: turn to Psalm 73 and verse 23. You read the
S4: whole psalm, but focus on that verse because that's God's
S4: response to you as well as it was to the
S4: author of the psalm. Well, there's another devotional entitled God,
S4: Never Waste Your Pain. Have you seen that to be
S4: true in your own life?
S7: I have, I have I.
S1: You know, Psalm 103 says he's a redeemer. He redeems
S1: our lives from the pit, and he crowns us with
S1: steadfast love and mercy. And God is a Redeemer. He
S1: takes all of the brokenness and brings beauty out of it.
S1: And I have definitely seen that time and time and
S1: time again where, you know, he just didn't waste our paint.
S1: I you know, I alluded to a season early in
S1: my in my early 20s where I was burned out.
S1: What happened was I, I graduated college in three years
S1: and went straight into pastoral ministry as the second pastor
S1: of a of a church that grew. It ended up growing,
S1: you know, from around 150 mark to 1000 mark. And
S1: I was I just packed out my schedule. So Monday
S1: nights I was doing worship practices because I led worship
S1: on Sunday and then Tuesday nights leading the Bible study,
S1: Wednesday nights, uh, leading a small group, Thursday nights, preaching
S1: on campus at uh, volunteers for Christ. And and then
S1: Friday nights we would do some sort of, uh, social
S1: event and activity. Saturday nights I was getting ready for
S1: all my responsibilities on Sunday and then church on Sunday.
S1: And then I put my date night. We were doing
S1: date nights. I put it on Sunday night after a
S1: week like that, and, and and I did that for
S1: two and a half years. And you can imagine I
S1: was just I was burnt to a crisp. Uh, and
S1: then they let me go and, and they and they said, Craig, we,
S1: you know, we're going to bring in, you know, somebody who's,
S1: who's got a little more, um, uh, ministry experience or
S1: this and that. And, and I was devastated. I just,
S1: I was like, oh, Lord, it didn't feel like a
S1: job change. It felt like a death of a dream
S1: and a calling. And I was in the depths of
S1: despair right then. But the Lord used it, and I
S1: went and got I stayed in the same church, you know, and, uh, just,
S1: just really said, Lord, do whatever it is you want
S1: to do. And I then our schedule just completely opened up,
S1: and Laura and I, my wife and I stopped arguing.
S1: You know, we, we we we.
S7: We started having great conversations and, and.
S1: And the Lord just started to really mend that brokenness
S1: and everything. And, and then, uh, you know, before, you know,
S1: I had I had staffing experience and recruiting experience. I
S1: had a career. It was it was great. And then
S1: the church came back and said, hey, we you know,
S1: we really regret letting you go and feel like you,
S1: you know, you really are a pastor. And would you
S1: consider coming back on staff, you know, in order to
S1: get prepared to help plan a church? And and that's
S1: what we did. And when we went to plant the church, uh,
S1: the job I got was a staffing role, uh, with
S1: a believer who had named the company provisions after God
S1: is our provider. And he he was fully supportive of
S1: me helping plant a church while also working there. And
S1: that would have never, ever, ever happened if I hadn't,
S1: if I hadn't gone through all of that. And yeah, yeah.
S1: So God redeems. Absolutely waste our pain.
S4: Absolutely. Greg, as we come near the end of our time, uh,
S4: talk to the person who says, you know, I'm glad, Craig,
S4: for you, that you found mercy and grace with God.
S4: But I've always felt judged by Christians, and I felt
S4: like I'm an outsider to church people. What do you
S4: say to that person?
S1: Well, that hurts my heart. You know it. That hurts
S1: my heart. That is not the heart of God. Whatever
S1: you've experienced on that end is is not coming from
S1: God's God's heart for you. And I just would want
S1: that individual to know that Jesus was drawn to, you know,
S1: people that others would say, you know, what are you
S1: what's he doing? Eating and drinking, you know, over here
S1: or there? And, and, uh, Jesus was known as a
S1: friend of sinners. And we're all sinners. Every one of us.
S1: We we don't have a leg to stand on in,
S1: in front of a holy God outside of Christ. And
S1: so I love what, uh, Billy Graham has said, that
S1: it's it's God's job to judge, you know, it's it's
S1: a Holy Spirit's, you know, job to convict. And it's
S1: my job to love. Yeah. And, you know, I. I
S1: would just want to hug that person and say, you
S1: are loved. You are loved, my friend. And let's sit
S1: down around a table of grace and let's just talk
S1: about all of it. I know people who have church
S1: hurt and and I've experienced that. And so. But there's grace.
S1: There's grace for you.
S4: Yep. Amen. Well, I've been reading your devotionals for the
S4: last week, and I really like them. The overflowing mercies.
S1: That means a lot.
S7: To me coming from you. Thank you, thank you.
S4: So I'm going to work my way through it. As
S4: I said, I've already gotten started, so, uh, but thanks
S4: for being with us today. It's been a it's been
S4: an enjoyable time and it's been a realistic time talking
S4: about our relationship with God. So thanks for the time
S4: you invested in this book. And I think it's going
S4: to help a lot of people.
S1: Oh, thank you. Thank you for the time and just
S1: so grateful to be be here. And thanks for reading it.
S1: Yes means a lot.
S3: Again, our featured resource is that book overflowing Mercies 100
S3: meditations on the Tender Heart of God. It's written by
S3: our guest today, Craig Allen Cooper, and you can find
S3: out more at the website. Building relationships.us again. Go to
S3: Building Relationships US.
S4: And next week how you can heal racial divides one
S4: friendship at a.
S2: Time. You'll hear Doctor Chapman and Doctor Clarence Schuller speaking
S2: to college students in one week. Our thanks to Janice
S2: backing and Steve Wick for their work today. Building relationships
S2: with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio
S2: in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S2: Thanks for listening.