1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,629 S1: Is the gospel really able to penetrate the world of Islam? 2 00:00:11,660 --> 00:00:14,810 S1: You ever wonder what's actually happening in the Muslim world, 3 00:00:14,810 --> 00:00:18,710 S1: particularly in the Middle East? Well, Todd Nettleton was just there. 4 00:00:18,710 --> 00:00:22,400 S1: And on today's program, he shares firsthand accounts. You'll hear 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,360 S1: true stories of Muslims turning to Christ against all odds, 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,540 S1: stories to encourage you and motivate you to pray. That's 7 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:33,860 S1: all ahead on today's edition of The Land and the book. Welcome. 8 00:00:33,860 --> 00:00:37,040 S1: I'm John Gager, checking in with our host, Doctor Charlie Dyer. 9 00:00:37,070 --> 00:00:38,840 S1: You all set for Thanksgiving, Charlie? 10 00:00:38,870 --> 00:00:42,050 S2: John, I am ready for Thanksgiving. Our daughter and son 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,180 S2: in law are coming in from London, so we are. 12 00:00:44,210 --> 00:00:44,990 S2: We're excited. 13 00:00:45,020 --> 00:00:47,390 S1: All right, that sounds fun. Well, at the end of 14 00:00:47,390 --> 00:00:50,090 S1: the year approaches, many world events have left us wondering 15 00:00:50,090 --> 00:00:53,629 S1: what God's plan is for the future. This is especially 16 00:00:53,630 --> 00:00:56,840 S1: true when it comes to Israel. Despite its small size, 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,110 S1: people around the world are intensely focused on what takes place. 18 00:01:00,110 --> 00:01:03,830 S1: There are today's headlines connected. We wonder in any way 19 00:01:03,830 --> 00:01:06,650 S1: with prophecies in the Bible and and how should followers 20 00:01:06,650 --> 00:01:10,459 S1: of Jesus interpret current events as we await his second coming? 21 00:01:10,490 --> 00:01:13,490 S2: And to help answer these important questions, our friends at 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,779 S2: Life and Messiah urge you to check out their new book, God, Israel, 23 00:01:17,780 --> 00:01:21,709 S2: and Bible Prophecy with Scripture as its foundation. This book 24 00:01:21,709 --> 00:01:24,229 S2: will take you on a journey into what God has 25 00:01:24,230 --> 00:01:27,650 S2: in store for the Jewish people and the nations. This 26 00:01:27,650 --> 00:01:30,500 S2: book is for anyone who wants to explore where modern 27 00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:34,100 S2: day events fit on God's grand timeline. Now, if that's 28 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:36,800 S2: you or someone you know, this would be a great 29 00:01:36,830 --> 00:01:41,000 S2: resource or gift. Visit Life in messiah.org and click on 30 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,160 S2: the Moody Radio button there to find out how you 31 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,480 S2: can receive your copy of God, Israel and Bible Prophecy. 32 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,540 S2: That's life in messiah.org. 33 00:01:50,690 --> 00:01:52,700 S1: And now a look at current events from the Middle 34 00:01:52,700 --> 00:01:56,930 S1: East region all unfolding as we speak. Story number one, 35 00:01:56,930 --> 00:02:00,920 S1: recent reports suggest a possible cease fire agreement between Israel 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,790 S1: and Hezbollah might be near. How reliable are these predictions 37 00:02:04,790 --> 00:02:07,190 S1: of an imminent halt to the fighting in Lebanon? 38 00:02:07,220 --> 00:02:11,329 S2: Well, the cease fire hasn't yet materialized, though apparently Lebanon 39 00:02:11,330 --> 00:02:15,710 S2: and Hezbollah both responded positively to the initial draft. In 40 00:02:15,710 --> 00:02:19,760 S2: the meantime, Israel is trying to force Hezbollah into submission. 41 00:02:19,790 --> 00:02:24,590 S2: They've attacked Hezbollah's strongholds throughout Lebanon, leveling buildings, taking out 42 00:02:24,620 --> 00:02:29,450 S2: missile launchers and supply depots, and killing senior leadership. Israel's 43 00:02:29,450 --> 00:02:32,870 S2: goal is to force Hezbollah to agree to fully implement 44 00:02:32,870 --> 00:02:37,940 S2: UN Security Resolution 1701, which includes moving their fighters north 45 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:41,149 S2: of the Litani River and away from Israel's border. They 46 00:02:41,150 --> 00:02:44,840 S2: want southern Lebanon demilitarized, except for the Lebanese Army and 47 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,840 S2: the UN forces, and they reserve the right to go 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,769 S2: back in if Hezbollah tries to rearm. In the meantime, 49 00:02:51,770 --> 00:02:56,180 S2: Hezbollah is still trying to harm Israel economically and militarily. 50 00:02:56,210 --> 00:02:59,540 S2: They fired thousands of rockets, missiles and drones over the 51 00:02:59,540 --> 00:03:04,970 S2: past year, forcing 60,000 Israelis to abandon their homes. Service 52 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,910 S2: time for Israeli reservists in the military has now reached 53 00:03:07,910 --> 00:03:11,750 S2: an average of 136 days per year, putting a great 54 00:03:11,750 --> 00:03:16,399 S2: strain on Israel's economy. It's also increased tensions between secular 55 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,359 S2: Israelis and the ultra-Orthodox who refuse to serve in the army. 56 00:03:20,389 --> 00:03:23,600 S2: I think right now all sides would like the conflict 57 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,970 S2: in the north to end, but each one wants to 58 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,760 S2: do it in a way that allows them to claim victory. 59 00:03:28,790 --> 00:03:32,930 S1: Story number two. Discord and dissension within Israel is once 60 00:03:32,930 --> 00:03:36,020 S1: again bubbling to the surface. You mentioned the tension over 61 00:03:36,020 --> 00:03:39,800 S1: drafting the ultra-Orthodox into the army, but help us untangle 62 00:03:39,830 --> 00:03:42,440 S1: all the other disputes fracturing the country. 63 00:03:42,710 --> 00:03:46,220 S2: Oh, yeah. John, we know how divided our country is politically. 64 00:03:46,220 --> 00:03:50,000 S2: After this last election, and with just two major parties, 65 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,960 S2: though it's a small country, Israel has far more fracture lines. 66 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,990 S2: The Likud party of Prime Minister Netanyahu. The ones that 67 00:03:56,990 --> 00:04:00,770 S2: are leading the coalition now can be characterized as conservative 68 00:04:00,770 --> 00:04:04,640 S2: and nationalistic. They believe Israel should encompass all the land 69 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,360 S2: of the Jewish people, including Judea and Samaria. And they're 70 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,780 S2: not necessarily overly religious, but they do believe in Jewish 71 00:04:11,780 --> 00:04:16,130 S2: traditions and culture. A slightly smaller group, represented by Benny 72 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,610 S2: Gantz and the National Unity Party, are similar to Likud 73 00:04:19,610 --> 00:04:22,850 S2: in their focus on strong national defense, but they're more 74 00:04:22,850 --> 00:04:26,060 S2: secular and lean more to the left on social issues. 75 00:04:26,089 --> 00:04:29,270 S2: A third group are the secular Israelis. They tend to 76 00:04:29,270 --> 00:04:31,760 S2: be younger and are more like the progressive wing of 77 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,930 S2: the Democratic Party here. Up until October 7th, many favored 78 00:04:35,930 --> 00:04:39,290 S2: the formation of a Palestinian state. And then there are 79 00:04:39,290 --> 00:04:43,159 S2: the ultra-Orthodox Israelis. They're opposed to having their members serve 80 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,700 S2: in the army, insisting that their primary task is to 81 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:49,609 S2: study the Talmud and Torah. They see themselves as the 82 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:54,320 S2: keepers of historic religious Judaism. And still another group are 83 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,279 S2: the Arab-israelis. Most, though not all, are Muslim. Within this 84 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,340 S2: group are various subgroups, some of which strongly oppose the 85 00:05:01,339 --> 00:05:05,240 S2: current government. Now, right now, there are four main issues 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,469 S2: dividing the country. First, should the ultra-Orthodox Jews be required 87 00:05:09,470 --> 00:05:12,470 S2: to serve in the army? Second, do the courts need 88 00:05:12,470 --> 00:05:16,430 S2: to be reformed to limit their power? Third, should term 89 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:19,370 S2: limits be imposed on the Prime Minister? And then finally, 90 00:05:19,370 --> 00:05:23,089 S2: what kind of state should Israel ultimately be? A liberal 91 00:05:23,089 --> 00:05:26,870 S2: secular state, or one with roots in Jewish law and tradition? 92 00:05:26,990 --> 00:05:30,710 S2: Here's just one example should buses run on Saturdays? Those 93 00:05:30,710 --> 00:05:32,780 S2: are the kind of things that are dividing the country. 94 00:05:32,779 --> 00:05:35,990 S2: And the main fracture lines now pit liberal and secular 95 00:05:35,990 --> 00:05:40,099 S2: Jews against conservative, nationalistic Jews. And then add in the 96 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:45,020 S2: ultra-Orthodox and the Arab-israelis, and you have an incredibly fractured country. 97 00:05:45,050 --> 00:05:48,140 S1: Charlie, wouldn't it be true, statistically, though, that the liberal 98 00:05:48,140 --> 00:05:51,980 S1: secular Jews would vastly outnumber the conservative Jews in Israel, 99 00:05:52,010 --> 00:05:53,090 S1: the liberals? 100 00:05:53,410 --> 00:05:55,870 S2: Well, I say it this way the secular Jews outnumber 101 00:05:55,870 --> 00:05:59,410 S2: the religious Jews, though the religious Jews are growing. However, 102 00:05:59,410 --> 00:06:03,850 S2: within the secular group, there's a growing conservative movement in 103 00:06:03,850 --> 00:06:07,029 S2: Israel because of especially the events in October 7th. And 104 00:06:07,029 --> 00:06:09,970 S2: right now, in elections, they still outnumber the liberal Jews. 105 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,520 S1: This is the land in the book from Moody Radio. 106 00:06:12,550 --> 00:06:14,890 S1: We're working through a list of current events, stories from 107 00:06:14,890 --> 00:06:19,570 S1: the past week. President elect Trump doesn't assume office until January, 108 00:06:19,570 --> 00:06:22,690 S1: but he's already influencing events in the Middle East. What 109 00:06:22,690 --> 00:06:25,900 S1: impact is he having on the different conflicts between Israel, 110 00:06:25,900 --> 00:06:28,390 S1: Iran and the Palestinian Authority? 111 00:06:28,900 --> 00:06:32,080 S2: The main impact so far focuses on the perceived difference 112 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:36,370 S2: between the previous administration and President Trump, as one observer 113 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,980 S2: put it. The perception in the Middle East is that 114 00:06:38,980 --> 00:06:42,880 S2: both President Obama and President Biden were unwilling to project 115 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,270 S2: power and confront adversaries in the region. They knew how 116 00:06:46,270 --> 00:06:49,599 S2: to speak out forcefully, but that was it. The latest 117 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,680 S2: example this week was a proposed UN Security Council resolution 118 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,880 S2: forcing Israel to withdraw from Gaza. As that vote approached, 119 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,060 S2: Israel didn't know if President Biden would side with them 120 00:07:01,060 --> 00:07:04,719 S2: and veto it or allow it to pass, harming them. Now, 121 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,989 S2: contrast that with President Trump's first term. He ended the 122 00:07:07,990 --> 00:07:12,190 S2: nuclear agreement with Iran, increased the sanctions on Iran, moved 123 00:07:12,190 --> 00:07:15,580 S2: the US embassy to Jerusalem, and officially recognized the Golan 124 00:07:15,580 --> 00:07:19,450 S2: Heights as part of Israel. Several of Trump's announced appointees, 125 00:07:19,450 --> 00:07:23,620 S2: including Mike Huckabee as ambassador, have suggested Trump will again 126 00:07:23,650 --> 00:07:26,530 S2: be following up his words with strong actions when it 127 00:07:26,530 --> 00:07:29,890 S2: comes to implementing policy. It's interesting to see how the 128 00:07:29,890 --> 00:07:34,480 S2: different countries are responding. Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has 129 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,560 S2: been reaching out to president elect Trump through the Lebanese-American 130 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,770 S2: father in law of Trump's daughter. Abbas wants to have 131 00:07:41,770 --> 00:07:45,340 S2: President Trump push for peace between the Palestinians and Israel 132 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:49,300 S2: based on a two state solution. He remembers Trump's funding 133 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:52,510 S2: cuts in response to the Palestinian rejection of a deal 134 00:07:52,510 --> 00:07:56,110 S2: during Trump's first term. For its part, Israel is encouraged 135 00:07:56,110 --> 00:07:59,590 S2: by statements made by Huckabee and others suggesting Trump might 136 00:07:59,590 --> 00:08:02,680 S2: even be open to allowing Israel to annex the West Bank, 137 00:08:02,710 --> 00:08:05,980 S2: the area they would call Judea and Samaria. They're also 138 00:08:05,980 --> 00:08:09,790 S2: encouraged by statements suggesting the US will not handcuff Israel 139 00:08:09,820 --> 00:08:13,930 S2: to keep them from responding to Iranian attacks. Iran, at 140 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,830 S2: least now, is keeping a lower profile, though they've reportedly 141 00:08:17,830 --> 00:08:20,890 S2: promised they won't try to assassinate Trump. It will be 142 00:08:20,890 --> 00:08:24,130 S2: interesting to see how all this plays out once Trump 143 00:08:24,130 --> 00:08:25,930 S2: assumes office in January. 144 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,590 S1: A recent article in The Jerusalem Post reported that scientists 145 00:08:29,590 --> 00:08:33,250 S1: have unlocked the secret of A3000 year old tablet that 146 00:08:33,250 --> 00:08:36,520 S1: reveals the path to Noah's Ark. So is this report 147 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:37,990 S1: fact or fiction? 148 00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:40,840 S2: It sounds like something out of Hollywood, doesn't it? I'd 149 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,540 S2: love for this report to be true, but I really 150 00:08:43,540 --> 00:08:46,690 S2: have doubts. The story claimed that scientists have unlocked the 151 00:08:46,690 --> 00:08:50,170 S2: secrets of the world's oldest map, revealing the location of 152 00:08:50,170 --> 00:08:53,439 S2: Noah's Ark. But this so-called map is really just a 153 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,309 S2: clay tablet on display in the British Museum. The tablet 154 00:08:57,309 --> 00:09:01,210 S2: shows Babylon and the Euphrates River and identifies eight outlying 155 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,050 S2: regions representing the then known world. On the reverse side, 156 00:09:05,050 --> 00:09:10,300 S2: it describes, in broken and largely unintelligible paragraphs, apparent distances 157 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:14,110 S2: and directions to these regions. It also identifies animals and 158 00:09:14,110 --> 00:09:17,530 S2: gods connected to the Babylonian account of creation along with 159 00:09:17,530 --> 00:09:20,770 S2: their account of the flood, but the text mentions Urartu, 160 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,130 S2: which the authors suggest is a reference to Mount Ararat. 161 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,490 S2: Now Urartu is in the general region of Ararat, but 162 00:09:27,490 --> 00:09:29,620 S2: it takes a great leap in logic to assume the 163 00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:32,380 S2: text is really referring to the mountain and pointing to 164 00:09:32,380 --> 00:09:35,290 S2: the location of the ark. The tablet dates to the 165 00:09:35,290 --> 00:09:39,250 S2: late 600 seconds BC, at the time of the Babylonian Empire. 166 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,540 S2: The flood happened at least 700 years earlier, now I believe. 167 00:09:43,570 --> 00:09:47,020 S2: Noah's Ark did exist, but you won't find it using 168 00:09:47,020 --> 00:09:48,430 S2: that so-called map. 169 00:09:48,429 --> 00:09:50,710 S1: We got time for one final story here. Tell us 170 00:09:50,710 --> 00:09:54,250 S1: about the rain that fell in Israel this past week, Charlie. 171 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,380 S2: Yeah. You know, rain in Israel is a blessing. And 172 00:09:56,380 --> 00:09:59,620 S2: Israel was blessed this past week. They experienced, in fact, 173 00:09:59,650 --> 00:10:03,490 S2: record breaking rain along the northern coast. In one town 174 00:10:03,490 --> 00:10:06,760 S2: on Mount Carmel, just under eight inches of rain fell 175 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,620 S2: in four hours. That's 60% of that area's average annual rainfall. 176 00:10:11,650 --> 00:10:15,100 S2: On Tuesday and Wednesday, the rain soaked the coastal area, 177 00:10:15,130 --> 00:10:18,400 S2: along with central and northern Israel, and some rain extended 178 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,699 S2: down into the Shfela and into the Judean Desert around 179 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:25,480 S2: the Dead Sea. It's the first major rainfall of the season, 180 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,300 S2: and they're hoping it will be followed by much more 181 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:29,710 S2: over the coming months. 182 00:10:29,740 --> 00:10:32,560 S1: Charlie, what do we know about the progress of desalination 183 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,260 S1: plants that have been worked on for several years now? 184 00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:38,290 S2: Well, they have five desalination plants up and running and 185 00:10:38,290 --> 00:10:42,580 S2: working on some others. So right now Israel is water self-sufficient. 186 00:10:42,610 --> 00:10:45,069 S2: In fact, they're drawing very little to any water from 187 00:10:45,070 --> 00:10:47,439 S2: the Sea of Galilee, but they're hoping to be able 188 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,809 S2: to provide even more water that they could then use 189 00:10:49,809 --> 00:10:52,510 S2: in foreign relations with some of the nations, like Jordan. 190 00:10:52,540 --> 00:10:54,490 S1: All right. Sounds good. Thank you for that update on 191 00:10:54,490 --> 00:10:57,880 S1: current events. We're looking forward to a conversation with Todd Nettleton, 192 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,630 S1: who takes us inside the Muslim world. Stories of Muslims 193 00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:04,839 S1: turning to Christ against all odds. If it's been a 194 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,000 S1: while since you've been to our website, check it out. 195 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,260 S1: It's at the Land and the book.org, the land and 196 00:11:11,260 --> 00:11:14,680 S1: the Book org. We're going Inside the Muslim World with 197 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:32,260 S1: Todd Nettleton next on the land and the book. When 198 00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:34,990 S1: it comes to trouble, there is no place quite like 199 00:11:34,990 --> 00:11:38,650 S1: the Middle East. It is just laced with trouble and tension. 200 00:11:38,650 --> 00:11:40,870 S1: And this last year in particular, we have heard so 201 00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:43,240 S1: much about the Middle East. But did you know that 202 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,460 S1: the Middle East is also where God is doing many 203 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,390 S1: great things, and he's doing a surprising amount of those 204 00:11:48,390 --> 00:11:52,170 S1: things among Muslim people. This is the land and the book. 205 00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:54,870 S1: Segment two. I'm John Gager. Before we jet off to 206 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:57,990 S1: the Middle East, let's pause for a creative idea on 207 00:11:57,990 --> 00:12:00,450 S1: reaching out to the Muslim friends that God has placed 208 00:12:00,450 --> 00:12:03,150 S1: in our path here at home. You and I, when 209 00:12:03,150 --> 00:12:05,880 S1: we come to any conversation, including a conversation with our 210 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,840 S1: Jewish friends, have a certain perspective. We bring we and they, 211 00:12:09,870 --> 00:12:12,599 S1: Josh and Rachelle Norman, are here to help us understand 212 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,880 S1: how those perspectives contribute or maybe cause trouble in our dialogue. Josh, one. 213 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,120 S3: Of the great objections to believing in Jesus is the 214 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,480 S3: Holocaust and the Crusades. And they say, If Jesus is 215 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,640 S3: your Messiah. If Yeshua is your Messiah, then how can 216 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,360 S3: he in his name? Many things happen and you know 217 00:12:30,390 --> 00:12:32,850 S3: there's really no one solid answer we can throw out 218 00:12:32,850 --> 00:12:36,240 S3: there and everything will be fine. It's humbly accepting the 219 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,760 S3: fact that you know what things have been done in 220 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,510 S3: the name of Yeshua, but that's not who he is, 221 00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:46,740 S3: and he is somebody who loves you, somebody who died 222 00:12:46,740 --> 00:12:48,690 S3: for you, who atoned for you. And it is a 223 00:12:48,690 --> 00:12:49,679 S3: very Jewish thing. 224 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,480 S4: And when a Christian is able to show that to 225 00:12:51,510 --> 00:12:54,089 S4: their Jewish friend, it really opens a lot of doors 226 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,060 S4: very quickly. Even if it's a shorter relationship, you're not 227 00:12:57,059 --> 00:12:58,590 S4: going to be with them a long time or it's 228 00:12:58,590 --> 00:13:01,530 S4: in passing at work. It opens a lot of doors 229 00:13:01,530 --> 00:13:03,720 S4: to a real open relationship. 230 00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:06,960 S1: Give me another example of a perspective that I might 231 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,179 S1: have or my Jewish friend might have. That could potentially 232 00:13:09,179 --> 00:13:10,410 S1: be a brick wall. Josh. 233 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,069 S3: Well, I would say that, um, you're not converting if 234 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:18,150 S3: you become a believer in Messiah, you're still Jewish because 235 00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:22,680 S3: he found his fulfillment in the Tanakh in the Old Testament. 236 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,070 S3: There's no converting leaving behind your Jewish identity. 237 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:27,900 S4: I think what Josh is bringing up here, too, is 238 00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:31,470 S4: terminology is really important. Using words like Messiah instead of 239 00:13:31,470 --> 00:13:34,350 S4: Christ is powerful to the Jewish person. 240 00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:37,560 S1: Our conversation today with Josh and Rochelle Norman with Chosen 241 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,850 S1: People Ministries here on the land and the book Todd 242 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,610 S1: Nettleton is vice president of message for the voice of 243 00:13:44,610 --> 00:13:47,280 S1: the martyrs USA and host of the Voice of the 244 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,850 S1: Martyrs Radio. During his more than 25 years of service 245 00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:53,730 S1: with voice of the martyrs, Todd has traveled the world 246 00:13:53,730 --> 00:13:57,390 S1: and conducted face to face interviews with hundreds of Christians 247 00:13:57,390 --> 00:14:00,959 S1: who have suffered persecution in more than 40 nations. He's 248 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,740 S1: been interviewed more than 4000 times, so this will be 4001, 249 00:14:04,740 --> 00:14:07,650 S1: I think. Todd has also written the Moody Publishers book 250 00:14:07,650 --> 00:14:11,729 S1: when Faith Is Forbidden. Recently, he met with Christians in 251 00:14:11,730 --> 00:14:14,040 S1: the Middle East, finding out how God is working in 252 00:14:14,070 --> 00:14:16,170 S1: that part of the world. And we want to say, 253 00:14:16,170 --> 00:14:18,960 S1: welcome back to the land and the book. Todd, thanks. 254 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,700 S5: So much, John. It's good to be with you. 255 00:14:20,730 --> 00:14:24,030 S1: So describe some of the challenges and the circumstances that 256 00:14:24,030 --> 00:14:26,880 S1: many of these brothers and sisters face in daily life. 257 00:14:26,910 --> 00:14:30,450 S5: Well, one of the things about the Islamic context that 258 00:14:30,450 --> 00:14:32,310 S5: most of our brothers and sisters in the Middle East 259 00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:37,110 S5: find themselves is that persecution usually doesn't start with the 260 00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:40,710 S5: police or with the government. It's usually much closer to home. 261 00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:43,290 S5: It starts with your dad. It starts with your big 262 00:14:43,290 --> 00:14:46,230 S5: brother who will come to you and say, listen, we 263 00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:49,380 S5: are a muslim family. We've always been a muslim family. 264 00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:51,990 S5: If you're not a muslim anymore, if you're a follower 265 00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:54,870 S5: of Jesus Christ, you're not really part of our family. 266 00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:57,360 S5: We don't have a spot for you in our family anymore. 267 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,720 S5: And so that is typically the first line of persecution. Now, 268 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,080 S5: that sounds horrible to us here in America. But when 269 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,530 S5: you understand the context of the Middle East, all of 270 00:15:07,530 --> 00:15:12,360 S5: your opportunities in life come through family connections, your opportunity 271 00:15:12,390 --> 00:15:16,800 S5: for education, your opportunity for jobs, your opportunity to get married. 272 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,340 S5: All of that is through connections from your family or 273 00:15:20,340 --> 00:15:23,400 S5: your tribal group. And so being cut off from that 274 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,190 S5: group is being cut off from all of your future, 275 00:15:26,190 --> 00:15:28,950 S5: from all of your opportunities. So it is a very 276 00:15:28,950 --> 00:15:31,290 S5: high price that our brothers and sisters in the Middle 277 00:15:31,290 --> 00:15:32,850 S5: East are paying speak. 278 00:15:32,850 --> 00:15:35,220 S1: To the difference that we have of religion here in 279 00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:38,160 S1: the West, being sort of an optional add on thing, 280 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,760 S1: where over there it's very much woven into every fabric 281 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,630 S1: of your life. 282 00:15:42,660 --> 00:15:46,830 S5: That's absolutely right. You are born a muslim. You are 283 00:15:46,830 --> 00:15:49,560 S5: expected to live your whole life as a muslim and 284 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,590 S5: you will die as a muslim. And in fact, Islam 285 00:15:52,590 --> 00:15:56,850 S5: really kind of runs in your blood. To be Jordanian, 286 00:15:56,850 --> 00:16:00,870 S5: to be a Saudi, to be a Qatari is to 287 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,900 S5: be a muslim. And so when you as one of 288 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:06,900 S5: those a citizen of one of those nations, you come 289 00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:09,810 S5: and say, well, actually, I'm not a muslim, I'm a 290 00:16:09,810 --> 00:16:13,380 S5: follower of Jesus Christ. There is that that perception. Well, 291 00:16:13,410 --> 00:16:17,040 S5: you've betrayed not only your family, you've betrayed your country. 292 00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:21,180 S5: You've betrayed your ethnicity. It is seen as a complete 293 00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:24,960 S5: turning away from your identity. And so one of the 294 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,340 S5: things that happens is the body of Christ becomes your family. 295 00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:33,120 S5: They become a part of your identity. And pastors and 296 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,910 S5: church leaders in that part of the world, they understand 297 00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:39,150 S5: very well. When I lead someone to Christ, I need 298 00:16:39,150 --> 00:16:40,950 S5: to not just be ready to be their pastor. I 299 00:16:40,950 --> 00:16:42,690 S5: need to be ready to be their father. I need 300 00:16:42,690 --> 00:16:45,090 S5: to be ready for them to sleep on my couch. I, 301 00:16:45,090 --> 00:16:47,550 S5: I need to be ready to provide some help for 302 00:16:47,550 --> 00:16:50,880 S5: them because their families are likely to cut them off, 303 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,760 S5: and the church has to become their family. 304 00:16:53,790 --> 00:16:57,060 S1: You were enrolled in a school of prayer through the 305 00:16:57,060 --> 00:16:59,820 S1: life example of the host that you stayed with. How 306 00:16:59,850 --> 00:17:02,430 S1: do people in the Middle East pray differently than we 307 00:17:02,430 --> 00:17:03,090 S1: do in the West? 308 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,330 S5: Todd You know, we had such an amazing time being 309 00:17:06,330 --> 00:17:08,850 S5: in the Middle East. And our host was, you know, 310 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,270 S5: the Bible verse that says, pray without ceasing. That is 311 00:17:12,270 --> 00:17:15,180 S5: how he lives his life. And so when you roll 312 00:17:15,180 --> 00:17:18,389 S5: up to a checkpoint, you pray, Lord, we're coming up 313 00:17:18,390 --> 00:17:20,490 S5: to a checkpoint. We need your help to make sure 314 00:17:20,490 --> 00:17:23,520 S5: we get through safely. When you have a trial. Hey, 315 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,680 S5: we need to pray. Lord, you need to help us 316 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,859 S5: with this trial. When you meet someone, you offer to 317 00:17:28,890 --> 00:17:31,170 S5: pray for them. When you hear, oh, my wife is 318 00:17:31,170 --> 00:17:34,560 S5: struggling with sickness or oh, I've just lost my job. 319 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,370 S5: The natural response of someone who prays without ceasing is, well, hey, 320 00:17:38,369 --> 00:17:41,159 S5: let me pray for you. And when you pray in 321 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,340 S5: the name of Jesus and then those prayers are answered, 322 00:17:44,340 --> 00:17:46,620 S5: that person has a question in their mind. They want 323 00:17:46,650 --> 00:17:48,959 S5: to come back to you and say, whoa, you prayed 324 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,950 S5: for me. And then that problem got solved. Tell me 325 00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:55,350 S5: more about this Jesus that you prayed to. And so 326 00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:57,510 S5: that is one of the ways the gospel is spreading 327 00:17:57,510 --> 00:18:00,660 S5: is just through bold Christians who are willing to say, hey, 328 00:18:00,660 --> 00:18:02,880 S5: I see that you have a problem, I hear you, 329 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,940 S5: I care about you. Let me pray for you. And 330 00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:08,910 S5: then when Jesus answers those prayers, it plants the seed 331 00:18:08,910 --> 00:18:10,710 S5: of the gospel in that person's heart. 332 00:18:10,740 --> 00:18:13,139 S1: God at work in the Middle East. That's our focus 333 00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:15,930 S1: today on the land and the book as we talk 334 00:18:15,930 --> 00:18:18,570 S1: with Todd Nettleton of Voice of the martyrs, I understand 335 00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:21,960 S1: that you went to two different underground church gatherings. How 336 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,199 S1: would those gatherings differ from what many of us experience 337 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,520 S1: on a Sunday morning? 338 00:18:26,609 --> 00:18:29,910 S5: Well, it was interesting getting in because, you know, there 339 00:18:29,910 --> 00:18:32,520 S5: was a door lock and a gate and a camera 340 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,590 S5: at the gate, and they were checking who was coming 341 00:18:34,590 --> 00:18:37,950 S5: and who was going. But once we got inside, it 342 00:18:37,950 --> 00:18:41,760 S5: actually was very similar to what we experience here in 343 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,850 S5: our church. And honestly, at one point they were singing 344 00:18:44,850 --> 00:18:47,340 S5: so loudly, I was kind of looking around like, hey, 345 00:18:47,369 --> 00:18:49,649 S5: are you sure we shouldn't maybe turn it down a 346 00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:52,080 S5: little bit because, you know, we're not supposed to be here. 347 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,190 S5: This is illegal. And so but they are boldly worshiping 348 00:18:56,190 --> 00:18:59,790 S5: the Lord. And, you know, it's interesting in, in many 349 00:18:59,790 --> 00:19:02,550 S5: of these countries, you have to think that the government 350 00:19:02,580 --> 00:19:05,280 S5: knows at least a little bit of what's going on. Yeah, 351 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,790 S5: it would be impossible for, you know, 85 or 100 352 00:19:08,790 --> 00:19:13,020 S5: people to gather without somebody noticing what's happening. And yet 353 00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:17,310 S5: the governments are in many cases, allowing that to happen. Um, 354 00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:19,980 S5: and there's a there's kind of a little dance. Well, 355 00:19:19,980 --> 00:19:21,870 S5: one of the things we heard is, well, let's be 356 00:19:21,869 --> 00:19:24,870 S5: careful not to shame the government. We don't want to 357 00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:27,420 S5: sort of throw it up in their face what we're doing, 358 00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:29,790 S5: because that would embarrass them, that would shame them, and 359 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:31,650 S5: then they would feel the need to respond. They would 360 00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:34,200 S5: feel the need to crack down. So let's let's be 361 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,040 S5: careful how we talk about this, and they are careful 362 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,410 S5: as they gather. They don't do it in a public way. 363 00:19:39,410 --> 00:19:42,320 S5: They don't certainly don't put a sign on their church saying, hey, 364 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,220 S5: we have worship services this Friday. Come at noon. They 365 00:19:46,220 --> 00:19:48,950 S5: don't do things like that. And there seems to be 366 00:19:48,950 --> 00:19:51,260 S5: a little bit of balance that is being achieved, at 367 00:19:51,290 --> 00:19:54,230 S5: least in some of the countries where the government says, okay, fine, 368 00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:57,860 S5: you have your meetings, just don't embarrass us as you 369 00:19:57,859 --> 00:19:58,520 S5: have them. 370 00:19:58,550 --> 00:19:58,850 S6: Mm. 371 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,270 S1: Well, that said, there was still a concern, perhaps even 372 00:20:02,270 --> 00:20:05,060 S1: an element of danger in these brothers and sisters being 373 00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:07,369 S1: found out. But what about you and Chas? What if 374 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,280 S1: you had been found at these underground church meetings? What then? 375 00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:12,679 S5: You know, one of the great blessings of having an 376 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,550 S5: American passport is the likelihood is we would be put 377 00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:18,800 S5: on a plane and we would be sent home. They 378 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,840 S5: would tell us not to come back. And don't be 379 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,470 S5: a troublemaker and go on home. I'm always aware, as 380 00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:29,120 S5: I travel into hostile and restricted nations, the danger for 381 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,810 S5: the Christians that I am meeting with is far, far 382 00:20:32,810 --> 00:20:35,870 S5: greater than any danger that I face. Because, you know, 383 00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:38,810 S5: I've got my blue passport and I've got a ticket home. 384 00:20:38,810 --> 00:20:40,969 S5: They're still going to be there, they still are going 385 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,760 S5: to live there, and they will still the government certainly 386 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,630 S5: has access to them to punish them. And so, yeah, 387 00:20:47,630 --> 00:20:51,109 S5: there's a certain amount of danger or worry as we go. 388 00:20:51,109 --> 00:20:53,960 S5: But I always am aware that the danger that they 389 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,170 S5: face is so much greater than anything that we do. 390 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,810 S1: Thanks for connecting with the land and the book today. 391 00:20:59,810 --> 00:21:02,720 S1: If you just joined us, I'm John Gager. Our guest today, 392 00:21:02,750 --> 00:21:05,480 S1: Todd Nettleton of the Voice of the martyrs, just back 393 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,060 S1: from a visit to the Middle East. Well, you mentioned 394 00:21:08,090 --> 00:21:11,450 S1: the idea that some of these believers are praying for 395 00:21:11,450 --> 00:21:14,810 S1: and with their unsaved Muslim friends. What are some other 396 00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:18,230 S1: ways that you would share Jesus in the context that 397 00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:18,740 S1: you were in? 398 00:21:18,770 --> 00:21:23,210 S5: Todd one of the things we heard was how long 399 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,300 S5: of a process it is for a muslim in the 400 00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:30,380 S5: Middle East to really renounce Islam and come to faith 401 00:21:30,380 --> 00:21:32,840 S5: in Jesus Christ. And, you know, we talked about the 402 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,510 S5: fact that they're turning their back on their culture. Their 403 00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:38,240 S5: family is likely to turn their back on them. All 404 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,360 S5: of their future opportunities are cut off. So it's it's 405 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,330 S5: a big decision to make that decision. Okay, fine. I'm 406 00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:47,270 S5: going to follow Jesus. I'm going to leave Islam behind 407 00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:50,840 S5: that typically. And we heard this from multiple Christians. That's 408 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,899 S5: not a one time conversation that we might think of 409 00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:55,520 S5: in the West. Well, you know, I'm going to I'm 410 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,050 S5: going to sit down with my friend. We're going to 411 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,270 S5: walk through the Romans Road. And at the end, I'm 412 00:21:59,270 --> 00:22:01,070 S5: going to bring them to a point of praying a 413 00:22:01,070 --> 00:22:04,790 S5: prayer and choosing to follow Jesus Christ in the Middle East. 414 00:22:04,820 --> 00:22:08,000 S5: We heard stories of how that is often a years 415 00:22:08,030 --> 00:22:12,320 S5: long process. It's not one conversation, it's hundreds of conversations. 416 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,889 S5: And Christians there don't think about sort of bringing people 417 00:22:15,890 --> 00:22:17,929 S5: to a point of decision right now or in the 418 00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:21,890 S5: next half hour. They think about planting a seed and 419 00:22:21,890 --> 00:22:25,850 S5: then planting another seed, maybe months later, maybe even years later, 420 00:22:25,850 --> 00:22:28,370 S5: and then watering the seeds that have been planted, or 421 00:22:28,369 --> 00:22:30,530 S5: watering the seeds that someone else has been able to 422 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,090 S5: plant and in months or years we hope this person 423 00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:37,790 S5: makes a decision to follow Jesus Christ. But it is 424 00:22:37,790 --> 00:22:41,150 S5: very rarely and in fact, I would say almost never. 425 00:22:41,150 --> 00:22:44,780 S5: One conversation or one encounter that leads someone to follow 426 00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:47,240 S5: Jesus out of a muslim background. In the Middle East, 427 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,840 S5: it is typically a years long process of planting and 428 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,110 S5: watering those seeds. And as I mentioned, prayer can be 429 00:22:54,109 --> 00:22:57,590 S5: a big part of that. We had a conversation with 430 00:22:57,590 --> 00:23:01,609 S5: some Muslims there and a Christian friend who was with us. 431 00:23:01,609 --> 00:23:04,399 S5: And one of the things that has happened is our 432 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,820 S5: Christian friend has prayed for these Muslims. He's prayed for 433 00:23:07,820 --> 00:23:12,500 S5: their business to succeed. And since he's done that, they 434 00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:15,740 S5: have noticed that their business has succeeded more than it 435 00:23:15,740 --> 00:23:19,010 S5: did before. And they have actually attached those two things 436 00:23:19,010 --> 00:23:22,100 S5: in their mind like, hey, after you prayed for us, 437 00:23:22,130 --> 00:23:25,159 S5: our business really has taken off. We've really experienced a 438 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:30,260 S5: lot of success. And so they understand like something happened 439 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:33,290 S5: when you prayed for us. And so that certainly was 440 00:23:33,290 --> 00:23:35,990 S5: a seed that's been planted. And now our friend is 441 00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:38,150 S5: trying to water that seed. He's trying to follow up 442 00:23:38,150 --> 00:23:40,310 S5: and say, is there is there other things that I 443 00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:43,820 S5: can pray to Jesus for on your behalf because he 444 00:23:43,820 --> 00:23:46,310 S5: wants them to see? Yes. When we pray to Jesus, 445 00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:49,790 S5: things happen. Jesus is the one who answers prayer. And 446 00:23:49,790 --> 00:23:52,940 S5: so that's an example of that sort of planting a seed, 447 00:23:52,940 --> 00:23:56,030 S5: watering a seed, but not thinking in terms of, okay, 448 00:23:56,060 --> 00:23:58,070 S5: you know, we're going to sit down over coffee right 449 00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:59,900 S5: now and I'm going to nail you down and you're 450 00:23:59,900 --> 00:24:02,510 S5: going to make a decision. It really is a long 451 00:24:02,510 --> 00:24:04,220 S5: process in the Middle East. 452 00:24:04,250 --> 00:24:07,070 S1: All right. Another facet of prayer would be our praying 453 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:09,859 S1: for these people in the Middle East. How could we 454 00:24:09,859 --> 00:24:12,530 S1: pray both for believers there and for those who have 455 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,119 S1: yet to find Jesus? 456 00:24:14,390 --> 00:24:16,910 S5: You know, I think for believers, we obviously we want 457 00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:19,790 S5: to pray for God's protection over them. It can be 458 00:24:19,790 --> 00:24:22,850 S5: very dangerous depending where you are. In the Middle East, 459 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,940 S5: there are family conflicts. There are family that will come 460 00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:29,180 S5: after you. There are police and there are governments that 461 00:24:29,180 --> 00:24:30,919 S5: will come after you as well. So we want to 462 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,890 S5: pray for God's protection. I think we also, though, want 463 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,100 S5: to pray for opportunities to witness as we think about 464 00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:41,389 S5: that long process of planting seeds and watering seeds and 465 00:24:41,390 --> 00:24:45,200 S5: hoping for a harvest. Let's just pray for our Christian 466 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,200 S5: brothers and sisters in the Middle East that that even today, 467 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,410 S5: they get an opportunity to plant a seed. They get 468 00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:54,590 S5: an opportunity to make a difference and to say something 469 00:24:54,590 --> 00:24:57,590 S5: that would lead someone to ask questions or to to 470 00:24:57,619 --> 00:25:00,680 S5: want to know more about Jesus Christ. The other thing 471 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,689 S5: that I would encourage people as we're praying, is to 472 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,830 S5: remember as as Jesus instructed us to pray for the persecutors. 473 00:25:06,830 --> 00:25:09,620 S5: We want to pray for government leaders in the Middle 474 00:25:09,619 --> 00:25:12,350 S5: East to have a radical encounter with Jesus Christ, to 475 00:25:12,380 --> 00:25:16,369 S5: have their hearts transformed by him. We want to pray 476 00:25:16,369 --> 00:25:19,460 S5: for some of these parents or older brothers who are 477 00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:22,250 S5: persecuting new believers. We want to pray for them to 478 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,980 S5: have a dream or a vision where they see Jesus. 479 00:25:24,980 --> 00:25:28,859 S5: And so let's remember also to pray for the enemies 480 00:25:28,859 --> 00:25:31,590 S5: of the gospel as we pray for our brothers and 481 00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:32,550 S5: sisters as well. 482 00:25:32,580 --> 00:25:35,129 S1: Well, those are all great prayer points. Thank you Todd. 483 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,340 S1: I appreciate your time, your insights. Always good to get 484 00:25:38,580 --> 00:25:41,100 S1: up to the minute reports from you, and God bless 485 00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:43,560 S1: you as you continue to travel and speak out on 486 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,030 S1: behalf of the persecuted church. 487 00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:48,330 S5: Thanks so much for having me. I always enjoy our conversations. 488 00:25:48,330 --> 00:25:50,310 S1: Thank you Todd. Hey, I'm looking forward to a look 489 00:25:50,340 --> 00:25:52,260 S1: at some Bible questions that have come in to our 490 00:25:52,290 --> 00:26:07,109 S1: email inbox. That's next on the land and the book. Well, 491 00:26:07,109 --> 00:26:10,649 S1: if your eyeballs are functioning and your brainwaves are at 492 00:26:10,650 --> 00:26:14,310 S1: all alive, when you read the Bible, you bump into questions, 493 00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:16,679 S1: I sure do. Hi, I'm John Gager. This is the 494 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,379 S1: land and the book, and this is the segment that 495 00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:23,880 S1: we devote exclusively to answering your questions about your own thoughts, ruminations, 496 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,619 S1: and puzzlements as you open Scripture for yourself. Doctor Charlie 497 00:26:27,650 --> 00:26:29,750 S1: Dyer's Bible is open. And before we get to our 498 00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:31,429 S1: first question, though, I just want to think about the 499 00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:33,500 S1: fact that as the end of the year approaches, many 500 00:26:33,530 --> 00:26:36,980 S1: world events have left us wondering what God's plan is 501 00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:39,470 S1: for the future. And this is especially true when it 502 00:26:39,470 --> 00:26:43,220 S1: comes to Israel. Despite its small size, people around the 503 00:26:43,220 --> 00:26:47,450 S1: world are just intensely focused, Charlie, on what takes place there, 504 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,600 S1: this tiny little country. So our today's headlines connected in 505 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,359 S1: any way with prophecies in the Bible. And how should 506 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,350 S1: followers of Jesus interpret current events as we await his 507 00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:58,280 S1: second coming? 508 00:26:58,310 --> 00:27:01,459 S2: Those are great questions. And to help answer those important questions, 509 00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:04,310 S2: our friends at Life and Messiah encourage you to check 510 00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:08,869 S2: out their book, God, Israel, and Bible Prophecy with Scripture 511 00:27:08,869 --> 00:27:11,179 S2: as its foundation. This book will take you on a 512 00:27:11,180 --> 00:27:13,939 S2: journey into what God has in store for the Jewish 513 00:27:13,940 --> 00:27:17,119 S2: people and the nations. This book is for anyone who 514 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,540 S2: wants to explore where modern day events fit on God's 515 00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:24,350 S2: grand timeline. If that's you or someone you know, this 516 00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:27,649 S2: would be a great resource or gift. Visit Life in 517 00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:31,250 S2: messiah.org and click on the Moody Radio button to find 518 00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:34,940 S2: out how you can receive your copy of God, Israel 519 00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:39,139 S2: and Bible Prophecy. That's life in messiah.org. 520 00:27:39,290 --> 00:27:41,900 S1: Well, fittingly enough, our first question takes us to the 521 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:45,290 S1: Old Testament. Teresa wants us to look at numbers ten 522 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,530 S1: one through ten, where the Lord instructs Moses concerning the 523 00:27:48,530 --> 00:27:52,070 S1: blowing of the trumpets at different times and for different reasons. 524 00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:54,920 S1: She says. Verses eight and nine clearly point out this 525 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,260 S1: is a lasting ordinance for the priest to blow the 526 00:27:57,260 --> 00:28:00,260 S1: trumpets when Israel goes into battle in their own land 527 00:28:00,260 --> 00:28:03,440 S1: against an enemy that is oppressing them. My question, she says, 528 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,560 S1: do you know if this happens today during these many 529 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:07,610 S1: months of war? 530 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,460 S2: Well, we know Israel certainly used the trumpets during their 531 00:28:10,460 --> 00:28:13,429 S2: time in the wilderness, and apparently they also continued to 532 00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:17,090 S2: use them during their festivals. The Temple Mount Faithful group 533 00:28:17,090 --> 00:28:21,110 S2: in Jerusalem have fashioned new silver trumpets for use in 534 00:28:21,109 --> 00:28:24,340 S2: the rebuilt temple. However, as far as I'm able to determine, 535 00:28:24,340 --> 00:28:27,760 S2: modern Israel does not sound trumpets when they go into battle. 536 00:28:27,790 --> 00:28:30,369 S2: Part of the reason could be that the other uses 537 00:28:30,369 --> 00:28:33,369 S2: for the trumpets during feasts, new moon festivals, and all 538 00:28:33,369 --> 00:28:36,010 S2: those others, well, they await the rebuilding of a temple 539 00:28:36,010 --> 00:28:39,760 S2: and the resumption of animal sacrifices and the priestly system. 540 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,090 S2: So I don't believe verse nine is being observed today. 541 00:28:43,210 --> 00:28:46,270 S1: Fran asks, can you please give me your take on 542 00:28:46,270 --> 00:28:49,570 S1: why Jesus and the people of the Bible are depicted 543 00:28:49,570 --> 00:28:53,920 S1: by secular and non-secular media as European and Caucasian? 544 00:28:53,950 --> 00:28:57,250 S2: Yeah, I believe Jesus and other Bible characters are depicted 545 00:28:57,250 --> 00:29:01,450 S2: that way because most European artists through the centuries pictured 546 00:29:01,450 --> 00:29:04,030 S2: the people and the other details in the Bible in 547 00:29:04,030 --> 00:29:07,720 S2: light of their own European experience. So the characters look 548 00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:11,470 S2: European as well as the clothing, the houses, the furnishings. 549 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:14,260 S2: You know, Da Vinci's Last Supper looks like a European 550 00:29:14,260 --> 00:29:18,250 S2: banquet table, not like a typical low table triclinium where 551 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,530 S2: guests would have been in the time of Jesus. Now, 552 00:29:20,530 --> 00:29:23,740 S2: some other descriptions did come from church tradition, like the 553 00:29:23,740 --> 00:29:27,340 S2: Three Wise Men, but most artists use local models and 554 00:29:27,340 --> 00:29:30,580 S2: then over time, the images they produced became the lens 555 00:29:30,580 --> 00:29:33,670 S2: through which many viewed the Bible stories. Now, lest we 556 00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:36,010 S2: be too hard on them, we tend to do exactly 557 00:29:36,010 --> 00:29:40,150 S2: the same thing as we unconsciously insert biblical characters and 558 00:29:40,150 --> 00:29:43,960 S2: events into locations from our own background, or into what 559 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,780 S2: we envision the scenes and people to have looked like. 560 00:29:46,810 --> 00:29:49,810 S2: I guess that's just because it's human nature, but it's 561 00:29:49,810 --> 00:29:52,360 S2: also maybe a good reason why a trip to Israel 562 00:29:52,390 --> 00:29:54,190 S2: can be incredibly helpful. 563 00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:57,940 S1: Terry takes us to Ephesians chapter one. Verse four tells 564 00:29:57,940 --> 00:30:01,180 S1: us that God chose us in him before the foundation 565 00:30:01,180 --> 00:30:04,180 S1: of the world. I know that Isaiah 55 nine tells 566 00:30:04,180 --> 00:30:06,190 S1: us that his ways are higher than our ways, and 567 00:30:06,190 --> 00:30:09,580 S1: his thoughts than our thoughts. But why would God create 568 00:30:09,580 --> 00:30:13,720 S1: some with a predestination of condemnation? The intersection of free 569 00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:17,950 S1: will and predestination is a puzzle. Yet predestination is referenced 570 00:30:17,950 --> 00:30:20,500 S1: in many places in the New Testament. Any insight? 571 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:23,650 S2: Yeah, I know the issue of predestination versus free will 572 00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:26,800 S2: is one that I believe extends beyond our ability to 573 00:30:26,830 --> 00:30:30,760 S2: truly comprehend. Yet I do believe both elements are true. 574 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,270 S2: And as you noted, Ephesians one four says, God predestined 575 00:30:34,270 --> 00:30:36,790 S2: us to be adopted as his sons. But I would 576 00:30:36,790 --> 00:30:39,580 S2: make two other observations there. First, it says that it 577 00:30:39,580 --> 00:30:42,790 S2: was in love. He did this. That is, predestination is 578 00:30:42,790 --> 00:30:46,780 S2: connected to God's love, not to condemnation. I personally don't 579 00:30:46,780 --> 00:30:51,580 S2: believe God actively predestined others to be condemned. Romans 512 580 00:30:51,610 --> 00:30:54,040 S2: makes it clear that sin entered the world through one 581 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,830 S2: man and death through sin. So it was Adam's choice 582 00:30:56,830 --> 00:30:59,470 S2: to sin against God, and when he did, it impacted 583 00:30:59,470 --> 00:31:03,430 S2: the spiritual DNA of all humanity. Now, God certainly understood 584 00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:05,440 S2: this was the case, and it became part of his 585 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,260 S2: master plan for the universe. At the same time, his 586 00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:11,140 S2: plan for salvation, including the death of his son, was 587 00:31:11,140 --> 00:31:14,500 S2: also part of that plan. That's why revelation 13 eight 588 00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:18,550 S2: describes Jesus as slain from the creation of the world. Anyway, 589 00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:21,830 S2: my point here is that predestination in Ephesians one four 590 00:31:21,860 --> 00:31:24,890 S2: isn't described as God deciding who goes to heaven and 591 00:31:24,890 --> 00:31:28,459 S2: who goes to hell. Following Adam's sin, all humanity stands 592 00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:31,730 S2: condemned before God, but in his love, God chose some 593 00:31:31,730 --> 00:31:35,030 S2: from among humanity to be adopted as his sons. 594 00:31:35,030 --> 00:31:37,160 S1: This is the land and the book with our host, 595 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,940 S1: Charlie Dyer. I'm John Geiger, enjoying your questions as always. 596 00:31:40,940 --> 00:31:43,820 S1: Here's one from Cara. As I think about how Samuel 597 00:31:43,820 --> 00:31:46,670 S1: worked in the Tabernacle and related to God, I'm curious, 598 00:31:46,670 --> 00:31:49,730 S1: was he serving God in the tabernacle primarily because of 599 00:31:49,730 --> 00:31:53,900 S1: his Nazarite vow and his mother's vow, or also because 600 00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:55,910 S1: of being from the tribe of Levi? 601 00:31:55,940 --> 00:32:00,470 S2: Well, in First Chronicles six, those genealogies that drive us nuts, 602 00:32:00,530 --> 00:32:02,990 S2: they're really important. And in fact, in chapter six, verses 603 00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:06,290 S2: 22 to 28, the writer traces the descendants of the 604 00:32:06,290 --> 00:32:09,440 S2: Kohathites who were part of the tribe of Levi, down 605 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,910 S2: through several generations of individuals named Elkanah, until he reaches 606 00:32:13,910 --> 00:32:16,729 S2: Samuel and his two sons. And the passage makes it 607 00:32:16,730 --> 00:32:19,690 S2: very clear that Samuel and his father Elkanah were from 608 00:32:19,690 --> 00:32:23,200 S2: the tribe of Levi. Through his son Kohath. The problem, 609 00:32:23,230 --> 00:32:25,570 S2: of course, is that in first Samuel one one it 610 00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:28,270 S2: makes it sound as if Samuel's father Elkanah, was from 611 00:32:28,270 --> 00:32:30,370 S2: the tribe of Ephraim, since it says he was from 612 00:32:30,370 --> 00:32:33,910 S2: the hill country of Ephraim. But it's very possible there. 613 00:32:33,940 --> 00:32:36,760 S2: Elkanah is just a Levite. He's from the tribe of Kohath, 614 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,060 S2: and just happened to be living in Ramah of Bethlehem, 615 00:32:40,060 --> 00:32:43,150 S2: which may have become part of the territory of Ephraim, 616 00:32:43,150 --> 00:32:46,390 S2: and assigned to the Levites following the Benjamite civil war. 617 00:32:46,420 --> 00:32:47,620 S2: In the Book of Judges. 618 00:32:47,650 --> 00:32:50,680 S1: Mary asks, was the body Christ had when he appeared 619 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,010 S1: to his disciples the same body that took on powers 620 00:32:54,010 --> 00:32:57,370 S1: because it wasn't subject to earthly decay? Did the risen 621 00:32:57,370 --> 00:32:59,230 S1: Christ have a special body? 622 00:32:59,260 --> 00:33:02,590 S2: Christ's natural body didn't experience decay in the same way 623 00:33:02,590 --> 00:33:04,990 S2: that the bodies of believers who died in Christ over 624 00:33:04,990 --> 00:33:08,020 S2: the years do. And I say that because of acts two. 625 00:33:08,050 --> 00:33:11,500 S2: Peter quotes from Psalm 1610, where David wrote that God 626 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:14,500 S2: would not let his Holy One, the Messiah, see decay. However, 627 00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:18,040 S2: that's not the reason Jesus was able to appear, disappear, 628 00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:21,790 S2: or demonstrate other miraculous powers following his resurrection. I think 629 00:33:21,790 --> 00:33:24,130 S2: the best answer for that is one Paul gave in 630 00:33:24,130 --> 00:33:26,890 S2: first Corinthians 15. Now here's what he said in part. 631 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,320 S2: He said, some might ask, how are the dead raised? 632 00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:31,990 S2: With what kind of body will they come? The body 633 00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:34,900 S2: that is sown is perishable. It's raised imperishable. It's sown 634 00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:37,750 S2: with dishonor. It's raised in glory. It's sown in weakness. 635 00:33:37,780 --> 00:33:40,540 S2: It's raised in power. It's sown a natural body. It's 636 00:33:40,540 --> 00:33:43,300 S2: raised a spiritual body. And just as we have borne 637 00:33:43,330 --> 00:33:45,700 S2: the likeness of the earthly man Adam, in our bodies, 638 00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:48,100 S2: so we shall bear the likeness of the man from heaven, 639 00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:50,770 S2: that is Jesus. So when we receive our new bodies 640 00:33:50,770 --> 00:33:53,410 S2: at the time of the rapture, we'll receive a body 641 00:33:53,410 --> 00:33:56,320 S2: like the one Jesus now has. I don't know everything 642 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,140 S2: about what that body will be like, but we're assured 643 00:33:59,140 --> 00:34:01,300 S2: that it will be like that of Jesus, and that 644 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:03,040 S2: means it's going to be pretty amazing. 645 00:34:03,070 --> 00:34:06,010 S1: Kim says, I've noticed in Genesis chapter five that the 646 00:34:06,010 --> 00:34:09,640 S1: descendants of Adam have children much earlier in their lives 647 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,240 S1: than Noah. Is there any biblical understanding of why this 648 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,260 S1: would be the case? 649 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,719 S2: Nothing in the text actually tells us why Noah was 650 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,029 S2: so much older at the time of his son's birth 651 00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:23,600 S2: than his ancestors were, so we can only speculate. It's 652 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,090 S2: possible that Noah and his wife had trouble conceiving that 653 00:34:26,090 --> 00:34:28,490 S2: there are other cases of that in the Bible. It's 654 00:34:28,489 --> 00:34:31,940 S2: also possible that the world situation that was described there 655 00:34:31,940 --> 00:34:34,700 S2: in Genesis six, verses 1 to 7, which is when 656 00:34:34,700 --> 00:34:38,000 S2: Noah lived, caused him to delay getting married and having children. 657 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,669 S2: But the reality is, we don't know why he was 658 00:34:40,670 --> 00:34:43,970 S2: so much older before he and his wife began having children. 659 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,580 S2: I do remember a paper I read in seminary that 660 00:34:46,580 --> 00:34:49,070 S2: compared the ages when children were born, as well as 661 00:34:49,070 --> 00:34:52,520 S2: the total lifespan of those from Adam through the patriarchs. 662 00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:55,910 S2: Though not an exact parabolic curve, the numbers show a 663 00:34:55,910 --> 00:34:58,700 S2: clear pattern of decline for example, the age at which 664 00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:01,490 S2: the first child was born declines until just before the 665 00:35:01,489 --> 00:35:05,120 S2: time of Enoch. It then seems to stabilize until the flood. Now, 666 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,700 S2: following the flood, the age at which children were born 667 00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:11,510 S2: declines again, dropping into the low 30s. In the same way, 668 00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:15,550 S2: the total lifespan of individuals declines slightly, though, staying relatively 669 00:35:15,550 --> 00:35:18,940 S2: constant until the flood, but following the flood, the total 670 00:35:18,940 --> 00:35:23,259 S2: lifespan declines rather markedly. As someone suggested, it's possible the 671 00:35:23,260 --> 00:35:25,780 S2: fall and the entrance of death began to have an 672 00:35:25,780 --> 00:35:29,020 S2: impact on human DNA with the arrival of disease and 673 00:35:29,020 --> 00:35:32,739 S2: other cellular mutations, and then the changing conditions on Earth 674 00:35:32,739 --> 00:35:36,880 S2: following the flood resulted in another dramatic decline. These shorter 675 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,030 S2: lifespans might also account for the desire to have offspring 676 00:35:40,030 --> 00:35:43,000 S2: at an earlier age, but again, these are only possible 677 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,060 S2: suggestions based on what we observe in the text. We're 678 00:35:46,060 --> 00:35:49,060 S2: never told specifically why this is so. 679 00:35:49,090 --> 00:35:51,520 S1: Diane says, I love my Ryrie Study Bible, but I 680 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,640 S1: noticed the notes often refer to Palestine, and I'm now 681 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,850 S1: encountering that term in my Thursday Bible study. When did 682 00:35:57,850 --> 00:36:00,880 S1: that term first get used and by who and why? 683 00:36:00,969 --> 00:36:02,080 S1: Can you help me out here? 684 00:36:02,110 --> 00:36:04,630 S2: Yeah, well, the term Palestine actually came from the time 685 00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:07,240 S2: of the Roman emperor Hadrian, about 100 years after the 686 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,330 S2: time of Jesus. After the second Jewish revolt against Rome, 687 00:36:10,330 --> 00:36:13,830 S2: he renamed the land Philistine land Palestine. And from his 688 00:36:13,830 --> 00:36:17,520 S2: day up until the 20th century, the term Palestine became 689 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,600 S2: a geographical term for the region. Since 1948, especially then 690 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,840 S2: since 1967, though, it took on a more political term 691 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,270 S2: to refer to the Arabs who lived there and who 692 00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:29,670 S2: are not part of the State of Israel. Now, by 693 00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:32,790 S2: using the term, I think in Bibles and Bible atlases. Sadly, 694 00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:35,310 S2: I think it's unfortunate. It's really an anachronism. 695 00:36:35,310 --> 00:36:38,370 S1: And that's today's look at questions and answers. More to 696 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,680 S1: come on the broadcast as Charlie opens his Bible to 697 00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:43,860 S1: bring us a devotional right here on the land and 698 00:36:43,860 --> 00:37:00,029 S1: the book. Everybody loves a parade. There's just something about 699 00:37:00,030 --> 00:37:03,600 S1: getting together, sitting down, watching the floats, the bands, the 700 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,420 S1: people go by. Well, there's a different kind of parade 701 00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:08,940 S1: in store for us as we continue here on the land. 702 00:37:08,940 --> 00:37:11,370 S1: And the book with our host, Charlie Dyer. What's this 703 00:37:11,370 --> 00:37:12,450 S1: all about, Charlie? 704 00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:14,670 S2: Oh, we're going to be having a fun time heading 705 00:37:14,670 --> 00:37:16,950 S2: out to the original Thanksgiving Day parade. 706 00:37:16,980 --> 00:37:20,370 S1: Okay, that's the subject of his devotional that comes after 707 00:37:20,370 --> 00:37:23,009 S1: this Holy Land experience. Testimony. Check it out. 708 00:37:27,180 --> 00:37:30,390 S7: Hello, land in the book friends. Doctor Dyer, I so 709 00:37:30,420 --> 00:37:33,120 S7: enjoyed your devotional last week and it reminded me of 710 00:37:33,150 --> 00:37:37,320 S7: that torrential downpour that I experienced at Megiddo. One of 711 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,979 S7: my favorite places was at Mount Carmel. I was able 712 00:37:40,980 --> 00:37:43,950 S7: to get a better visual of how Elijah was able 713 00:37:43,950 --> 00:37:47,640 S7: to beat Ahab's chariot on foot from that mountain to 714 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,970 S7: the Jezreel Valley below. After defeating the prophets of Baal, 715 00:37:51,420 --> 00:37:53,969 S7: I saw how Ahab's chariot would have had a most 716 00:37:53,969 --> 00:37:57,750 S7: difficult time getting through that muddy mess. I think about 717 00:37:57,750 --> 00:38:01,170 S7: my Israel experience every day as I read God's Word. 718 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,800 S7: Not just the places, but the people as well. It 719 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,070 S7: was amazing to see all the archaeological finds such as 720 00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:11,190 S7: the Capernaum ruins, the church of the Nativity, which sits 721 00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:14,460 S7: upon the cave of Jesus birth, the Dead Sea Scrolls, 722 00:38:14,460 --> 00:38:17,820 S7: just to name a few. And still the majority of 723 00:38:17,820 --> 00:38:21,870 S7: its residents are not believers. I am reminded to pray 724 00:38:21,870 --> 00:38:24,330 S7: for the people of that land, that the scales will 725 00:38:24,330 --> 00:38:26,580 S7: be removed, and that they would accept the Lord Jesus 726 00:38:26,580 --> 00:38:29,879 S7: as their Messiah. What a gift to be a part 727 00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:33,930 S7: of God's story, to walk in a land rich with history, 728 00:38:33,930 --> 00:38:37,739 S7: and the place where God's final victory over Satan will occur. 729 00:38:37,950 --> 00:38:41,820 S7: Thank you Doctor Dyer for the most amazing trip ever. 730 00:38:41,850 --> 00:38:44,730 S7: God bless you all and thank you for your service. 731 00:38:46,620 --> 00:38:49,560 S1: All right. We're headed for Second Chronicles, chapter 20, in 732 00:38:49,590 --> 00:38:53,850 S1: a devotional you've titled Jehoshaphat's Parade. Looking forward to this, Charlie. 733 00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:59,100 S2: Thanks, John. For the past century. Since 1924, Macy's Thanksgiving 734 00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:01,650 S2: Day Parade in New York City has marked the start 735 00:39:01,650 --> 00:39:04,680 S2: of the holiday season. But while the Macy's parade might 736 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,770 S2: be the most well known, it's not the oldest. That 737 00:39:07,770 --> 00:39:11,069 S2: honor belongs to Philadelphia, which held its first Thanksgiving Day 738 00:39:11,070 --> 00:39:15,270 S2: parade four years earlier in 1920. It's actually the oldest 739 00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:18,960 S2: Thanksgiving Day parade in our country, but both of these 740 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,680 S2: Thanksgiving Day parades are eclipsed by the first Thanksgiving Day 741 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,120 S2: parade held in Israel nearly 2800 years earlier. And that 742 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,210 S2: Thanksgiving Day parade was not only the first, it was 743 00:39:30,210 --> 00:39:33,420 S2: also the longest parade in terms of the distance covered. 744 00:39:33,450 --> 00:39:37,440 S2: The parade route extended for nearly 35 miles, and it 745 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,400 S2: included marching bands and choirs and the military. But I'm 746 00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:43,859 S2: getting ahead of myself, so follow me out to the 747 00:39:43,860 --> 00:39:47,610 S2: town of Toccoa for our front row seats, and while 748 00:39:47,610 --> 00:39:49,680 S2: we wait for the parade to arrive, I'll explain how 749 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,370 S2: it started. Toccoa is a small town, but perched up 750 00:39:53,370 --> 00:39:55,500 S2: on this hill. It provides us with a wonderful view 751 00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,620 S2: of the roadway below. The road winds its way north 752 00:39:58,620 --> 00:40:02,940 S2: and west, skirting by Bethlehem before heading to Jerusalem. That's 753 00:40:02,940 --> 00:40:05,580 S2: the direction from which the parade will come. Well, then, 754 00:40:05,580 --> 00:40:07,859 S2: the road extends to the right, below us as it 755 00:40:07,890 --> 00:40:11,940 S2: drops into the Judean wilderness. Eventually it reaches Enjeti along 756 00:40:11,940 --> 00:40:14,790 S2: the shores of the Dead Sea. This is the roadway 757 00:40:14,820 --> 00:40:17,910 S2: taken by Ruth and Naomi several hundred years earlier, when 758 00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:21,450 S2: the two returned from Moab to Bethlehem. The origin of 759 00:40:21,450 --> 00:40:24,390 S2: today's parade is actually quite recent. In fact, it all 760 00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:27,450 S2: began just a few days ago, when some men. I'm 761 00:40:27,450 --> 00:40:30,210 S2: not sure if they were travelers or guards or simply 762 00:40:30,210 --> 00:40:33,509 S2: shepherds tending their flocks, but they showed up in Jerusalem. 763 00:40:33,510 --> 00:40:36,419 S2: It's obvious they had been running for some distance because 764 00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:39,540 S2: they were exhausted. They hurried to the palace entrance and 765 00:40:39,540 --> 00:40:43,200 S2: delivered a grim report to King Jehoshaphat. A vast army 766 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,810 S2: is coming against you from Edom, from the other side 767 00:40:45,810 --> 00:40:49,080 S2: of the sea. It is already in Hazon. Tamar. That 768 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,100 S2: is Enjeti. Were we not sitting here in Toccoa, we 769 00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:56,670 S2: might pass over those details without grasping their significance. But 770 00:40:56,670 --> 00:41:00,029 S2: they were not lost on the king or his subjects. 771 00:41:00,030 --> 00:41:02,940 S2: The other details in the report fill in the who, what, 772 00:41:02,969 --> 00:41:06,450 S2: where and when. Who. It's not just one nation coming 773 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,540 S2: to attack Judah. It's a coalition of three nations the Moabites, 774 00:41:10,540 --> 00:41:14,470 S2: the ammonites and the Edomites. These three countries straddled the 775 00:41:14,469 --> 00:41:18,160 S2: eastern side of the Dead Sea. What? These nations have 776 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,510 S2: formed an alliance against Judah and Jerusalem, where they managed 777 00:41:22,510 --> 00:41:25,180 S2: to cross the Dead Sea, possibly at the tongue of 778 00:41:25,180 --> 00:41:29,140 S2: land that extends partway across. And they've now rendezvoused at Engedi, 779 00:41:29,140 --> 00:41:32,290 S2: an oasis at the start of the back door entrance 780 00:41:32,290 --> 00:41:37,150 S2: to Jerusalem, when apparently those reporting saw the armies as 781 00:41:37,150 --> 00:41:40,180 S2: they began gathering at Engedi. It might take the three 782 00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:43,330 S2: armies several days to get organized and finalize their plan 783 00:41:43,330 --> 00:41:45,520 S2: of attack, and then it will take another day or 784 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,280 S2: so to climb the steep pathway up into the wilderness, 785 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,790 S2: and still another day to cross the wilderness and reach Tekoa. 786 00:41:51,790 --> 00:41:53,979 S2: But at that point, they're less than a day from 787 00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:57,700 S2: the gates of Jerusalem. Judah has less than a week 788 00:41:57,700 --> 00:42:01,660 S2: to get ready for this massive invasion. King Jehoshaphat wasted 789 00:42:01,660 --> 00:42:05,520 S2: no time, and his steps to prepare are instructive. First 790 00:42:05,550 --> 00:42:09,120 S2: he resolved to inquire of the Lord. He started by 791 00:42:09,150 --> 00:42:12,989 S2: going to God. Then he proclaimed a fast for all Judah, 792 00:42:12,989 --> 00:42:15,630 S2: and had the people of Judah come together to seek 793 00:42:15,630 --> 00:42:18,989 S2: help from the Lord. People poured into the city from 794 00:42:18,989 --> 00:42:21,930 S2: every town in Judah to seek him. The king led 795 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,060 S2: the people in prayer as he opened his heart to 796 00:42:24,090 --> 00:42:27,630 S2: the Lord. We have no power to face this vast 797 00:42:27,630 --> 00:42:30,540 S2: army that is attacking us. We do not know what 798 00:42:30,540 --> 00:42:34,469 S2: to do, but our eyes are upon you. God sent 799 00:42:34,469 --> 00:42:37,350 S2: a direct message of encouragement and hope through a Levite 800 00:42:37,380 --> 00:42:40,620 S2: who stood up and said, listen, King Jehoshaphat and all 801 00:42:40,650 --> 00:42:43,259 S2: who live in Judah and Jerusalem, this is what the 802 00:42:43,260 --> 00:42:46,140 S2: Lord says to you. Do not be afraid or discouraged 803 00:42:46,140 --> 00:42:49,350 S2: because of this vast army, for the battle is not yours, 804 00:42:49,350 --> 00:42:54,150 S2: but God's. The next day, Jerusalem's ragtag army of minutemen 805 00:42:54,180 --> 00:42:57,150 S2: were to march out to face the attackers, which by 806 00:42:57,150 --> 00:43:00,060 S2: now would likely be ready to climb the cliffs toward 807 00:43:00,060 --> 00:43:03,480 S2: the Judean wilderness. And that's what brings us here today 808 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:08,120 S2: for Jehoshaphat's Thanksgiving Day Parade. I see the confused look 809 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,270 S2: in your eyes. How is this a Thanksgiving Day parade? 810 00:43:11,270 --> 00:43:14,569 S2: Isn't it more like a panicked mob racing to stop 811 00:43:14,570 --> 00:43:18,140 S2: what must have looked like an invincible army? The word 812 00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:21,080 S2: that would normally come to mind is fear. Not Thanksgiving 813 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,569 S2: at a time like this, isn't it? And that's where 814 00:43:23,570 --> 00:43:26,750 S2: this story takes quite a dramatic turn. We would expect 815 00:43:26,750 --> 00:43:29,930 S2: to see the army of Judah marching below, desperately trying 816 00:43:29,930 --> 00:43:32,690 S2: to reach the overlook before the much larger army was 817 00:43:32,690 --> 00:43:36,110 S2: able to climb up the steep cliffs. But instead we're 818 00:43:36,140 --> 00:43:39,020 S2: watching a parade, and the army is at the back 819 00:43:39,020 --> 00:43:41,480 S2: of the parade, not the front. Here's how the book 820 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,470 S2: of Second Chronicles records what happened next. Early in the morning, 821 00:43:45,469 --> 00:43:48,529 S2: they left for the desert of Tekoa. That's right below us. 822 00:43:48,530 --> 00:43:51,950 S2: As they set out, Jehoshaphat stood and said, listen to me, 823 00:43:51,950 --> 00:43:55,070 S2: Judah and people of Jerusalem have faith in the Lord 824 00:43:55,070 --> 00:43:57,830 S2: your God, and you will be upheld. Have faith in 825 00:43:57,830 --> 00:44:01,820 S2: his prophets and you will be successful. After consulting with 826 00:44:01,820 --> 00:44:05,100 S2: the people, Jehoshaphat appointed men to sing to the Lord 827 00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:07,770 S2: and to praise him for the splendor of his holiness 828 00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:10,170 S2: as they went out at the head of the army, saying, 829 00:44:10,170 --> 00:44:13,710 S2: give thanks to the Lord, for his love endures forever. 830 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,640 S2: And here comes the parade. A large choir with musicians 831 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,840 S2: are leading the procession, with the army following behind. Instead 832 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,080 S2: of shouting war cries trying to psych themselves up for battle, 833 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,250 S2: they're giving thanks to God. And what happened next? As 834 00:44:29,250 --> 00:44:31,920 S2: they began to sing and praise, the Lord set ambushes 835 00:44:31,950 --> 00:44:34,260 S2: against the men of Ammon and Moab and Mount Seir, 836 00:44:34,290 --> 00:44:37,830 S2: who were invading Judah, and they were defeated. Ammon and 837 00:44:37,830 --> 00:44:40,710 S2: Moab turned against the Edomites and attacked them. Then the 838 00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:44,400 S2: Ammonites and Moabites fought each other over the spoil. By 839 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,410 S2: the time the men of Judah came to the place 840 00:44:46,410 --> 00:44:49,440 S2: that overlooks the desert and looked toward the vast army, 841 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,010 S2: they saw only dead bodies lying on the ground. No 842 00:44:53,010 --> 00:44:56,250 S2: one had escaped. As we pick up our folding chairs 843 00:44:56,250 --> 00:44:58,740 S2: and begin to head home, what lessons can we take 844 00:44:58,739 --> 00:45:03,170 S2: with us from Jehoshaphat? Thanksgiving day parade. How about this? 845 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,650 S2: Usually we thank God after he's done something for us. 846 00:45:06,650 --> 00:45:10,190 S2: But Jehoshaphat and the people gave thanks to God before 847 00:45:10,190 --> 00:45:12,290 S2: he had come to their aid. In fact, it was 848 00:45:12,290 --> 00:45:15,500 S2: after they began singing praises to God that he intervened. 849 00:45:15,530 --> 00:45:19,640 S2: Whatever problem you're facing today, pause first and say a 850 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,719 S2: prayer of thanksgiving, praising God for the reality that his 851 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:28,219 S2: loyal love endures forever. However great your problem might seem, 852 00:45:28,219 --> 00:45:31,580 S2: stop and remember that God's power and his love for 853 00:45:31,580 --> 00:45:36,620 S2: you are infinitely greater. One final detail it's possible the 854 00:45:36,620 --> 00:45:39,950 S2: psalm sung by the procession that just passed below us 855 00:45:39,950 --> 00:45:43,460 S2: was Psalm 136. I say that because the theme of 856 00:45:43,460 --> 00:45:46,670 S2: the entire psalm is the same as the summary verse 857 00:45:46,670 --> 00:45:51,230 S2: recorded by the writer of two Chronicles 20. Psalm 136 begins, 858 00:45:51,230 --> 00:45:53,719 S2: give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. His 859 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,220 S2: love endures forever. In fact, every single verse ends with 860 00:45:58,219 --> 00:46:02,600 S2: his love endures Forever. The psalmist traces God's goodness from 861 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,040 S2: creation through the Exodus and wilderness wanderings and into the conquest. 862 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,530 S2: And he ends by reminding the people that the God 863 00:46:09,530 --> 00:46:13,009 S2: of the past is still present and powerful today. He 864 00:46:13,010 --> 00:46:15,590 S2: is the one who remembered us in our lowest state, 865 00:46:15,590 --> 00:46:18,410 S2: and who freed us from our enemies. And he did 866 00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:21,890 S2: all this because he's the God of heaven. Just remember 867 00:46:21,890 --> 00:46:25,940 S2: to pause and praise God today, for his love endures forever. 868 00:46:25,940 --> 00:46:28,790 S2: And if you have some free time, read Second Chronicles 869 00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:33,590 S2: 20 and Psalm 136. If you do. I'm confident you 870 00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:35,210 S2: will be encouraged. 871 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,670 S1: Thank you Charlie, always refreshing to have you open the 872 00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:40,430 S1: word and take us to a passage there and just 873 00:46:40,430 --> 00:46:43,069 S1: open our eyes to things we maybe haven't thought about. Well, 874 00:46:43,070 --> 00:46:45,050 S1: our time is gone, but I want to thank you, Charlie, 875 00:46:45,050 --> 00:46:47,810 S1: our producer, Dan Anderson, and the management of this station 876 00:46:47,810 --> 00:46:50,210 S1: for carrying the land and the book. We're a production 877 00:46:50,210 --> 00:46:53,660 S1: of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. 878 00:46:53,690 --> 00:46:54,680 UU: Have a great day.