WEBVTT - Hour 2: Richard Dawkins or Intelligent Design? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.920 and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.520 and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.440 But before you go, I want to tell you about 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.720 And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.600 going out into the night sky and looking up and 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.439 seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.560 about God? And are you not in a moment of 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.960 awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.600 of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.800 that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.240 wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.480 of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.879 from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.160 a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.599 this sense of awe through the work that they do. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.120 In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.440 it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.150 because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you 0:01:00.150 --> 0:01:03.550 to walk through the chapters written by people who all 0:01:03.550 --> 0:01:06.310 have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes 0:01:06.310 --> 0:01:09.110 to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an 0:01:09.110 --> 0:01:11.429 amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, 0:01:11.430 --> 0:01:16.270 just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask 0:01:16.270 --> 0:01:19.150 for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll 0:01:19.150 --> 0:01:20.390 send it right off to you as my way of 0:01:20.390 --> 0:01:22.950 saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or 0:01:22.950 --> 0:01:24.949 you can go online to in the market with Janet 0:01:24.950 --> 0:01:28.710 Parshall and you're also on the website, consider becoming a 0:01:28.709 --> 0:01:31.430 partial partner. Those are people who give every single month 0:01:31.430 --> 0:01:33.509 at a level of their own choosing. You always get 0:01:33.510 --> 0:01:35.350 the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get 0:01:35.350 --> 0:01:38.230 a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio 0:01:38.230 --> 0:01:42.350 piece just for my partial partner. So 877 Janet 58 0:01:42.390 --> 0:01:46.030 or the website in the market with Janet parshall.org consider 0:01:46.030 --> 0:01:49.270 becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool. 0:01:49.270 --> 0:01:59.310 Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends, 0:01:59.310 --> 0:02:01.550 this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for choosing to 0:02:01.550 --> 0:02:04.830 spend the next hour with us. Today's program is pre-recorded 0:02:04.830 --> 0:02:06.910 so our phone lines are not open. But thanks so 0:02:06.910 --> 0:02:09.390 much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast. 0:02:09.830 --> 0:02:11.350 Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 0:02:11.630 --> 0:02:13.950 The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 0:02:13.990 --> 0:02:16.150 Americans worshiping government over God. 0:02:16.430 --> 0:02:19.830 Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 0:02:19.830 --> 0:02:25.310 The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a truce. 0:02:37.830 --> 0:02:40.470 Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall 0:02:40.470 --> 0:02:42.669 and a very happy Thursday to you. So glad we're 0:02:42.669 --> 0:02:44.549 going to be spending the hour together. 0:02:50.350 --> 0:02:54.230 In Washington, the State Department is optimistic the cease fire 0:02:54.230 --> 0:02:55.149 will hold. 0:02:55.190 --> 0:02:58.500 There was some activity back and forth, and that has 0:02:58.500 --> 0:03:00.700 stopped and the cease fire has taken effect, and the 0:03:00.700 --> 0:03:02.140 president is pleased. 0:03:03.780 --> 0:03:08.740 In central Tehran, thousands remain defiant, shouting Death to Israel 0:03:08.740 --> 0:03:10.419 and death to America. 0:03:11.540 --> 0:03:13.820 We don't approve of the cease fire at all. We 0:03:13.820 --> 0:03:16.940 will continue fighting until we are either martyred or win. 0:03:16.980 --> 0:03:20.740 God willing, Iran will eventually own a nuclear bomb. 0:03:20.900 --> 0:03:25.940 Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu assessed the impact of Operation 0:03:25.940 --> 0:03:27.100 Rising Lion. 0:03:29.220 --> 0:03:31.940 For dozens of years, I promised you that Iran would 0:03:31.940 --> 0:03:35.700 not have nuclear weapons. Therefore, with all the actions that 0:03:35.700 --> 0:03:40.220 our fighters have taken, we brought to ruin Iran's nuclear program. 0:03:40.340 --> 0:03:43.460 And if anyone in Iran tries to revive this project, 0:03:43.460 --> 0:03:46.420 we will act with the same determination and the same 0:03:46.420 --> 0:03:49.460 strength to put an end to any such attempt. 0:03:49.500 --> 0:03:53.940 President Trump emphasized to reporters, the U.S. and Israel stopped 0:03:53.980 --> 0:03:56.130 Iran's nuclear program. 0:03:56.170 --> 0:03:58.250 They're not going to have enrichment and they're not going 0:03:58.250 --> 0:04:01.170 to have enough. The last thing on Iran's mind right 0:04:01.170 --> 0:04:03.130 now is their weapons. 0:04:03.330 --> 0:04:07.690 However, the head of Iran's Atomic Energy Organization announced it 0:04:07.690 --> 0:04:12.250 has begun building a new uranium enrichment facility and said 0:04:12.250 --> 0:04:15.890 of the regime's nuclear program, our plan is not to 0:04:15.930 --> 0:04:21.210 allow any interruption. With the cease fire holding, Israel is 0:04:21.210 --> 0:04:24.930 turning its attention back to the war in Gaza. The 0:04:24.930 --> 0:04:29.089 IDF announced seven soldiers were killed in a Hamas attack 0:04:29.089 --> 0:04:33.130 on an armored personnel carrier. Also, the U.S. backed Gaza 0:04:33.170 --> 0:04:37.729 Humanitarian Foundation is asking the UN to stop fighting its 0:04:37.730 --> 0:04:42.890 effort to feed Gaza's civilians and condemn Hamas killing of 0:04:42.890 --> 0:04:48.450 several of its humanitarian workers two weeks ago. Chairman Reverend 0:04:48.450 --> 0:04:51.490 Johnny Moore wrote to the UN silence in the face 0:04:51.490 --> 0:04:56.930 of such violence is not impartiality or neutrality. It is abandonment. 0:04:57.410 --> 0:05:01.330 In just a few weeks, the GFW has distributed more 0:05:01.330 --> 0:05:07.330 than 40 million meals to hungry Gazans. Chris Mitchell, CBN news, Jerusalem. 0:05:11.650 --> 0:05:14.330 So many in our culture today are spiritually curious but 0:05:14.370 --> 0:05:17.250 hesitant about religion. That's why I've chosen. Have you ever 0:05:17.250 --> 0:05:20.969 wondered is this month's truth to explore how everyday experiences 0:05:20.970 --> 0:05:24.330 might be the signpost pointing to deeper biblical truths? As 0:05:24.330 --> 0:05:26.450 for your copy of have you ever wondered when you 0:05:26.450 --> 0:05:28.410 give a gift of any amount to in the market, 0:05:28.410 --> 0:05:33.570 call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go to in 0:05:33.610 --> 0:05:34.890 the market with Janet Parshall. 0:05:36.250 --> 0:05:39.890 After President Trump left the G-7 summit in Canada a 0:05:39.890 --> 0:05:42.530 day early last week, it was learned he had received 0:05:42.529 --> 0:05:46.050 a message from Iran that if the U.S. attacked Iran's 0:05:46.089 --> 0:05:50.370 nuclear facilities, the regime could activate sleeper cells to launch 0:05:50.370 --> 0:05:54.600 terror attacks in the United States. The FBI says assets 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:58.760 are fully engaged to prevent an attack, and Homeland Security 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:03.080 is warning of a heightened threat environment but saying little else. 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.640 What information do we know right now in regards to 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.640 those sleeper cells? How is DHS tracking and following up 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.560 and seeking information in regards? 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.280 I can't necessarily share that with you, but I will 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.760 tell you that we are continuing to evaluate every single 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.479 threat and to proactively go after them before they do 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:22.000 anything or take any activity. 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:27.359 This week, federal immigration agents have arrested 11 Iranians here illegally. 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:31.479 One arrested in Alabama was an Iranian Army sniper. Another 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:36.360 in Houston was carrying a loaded pistol. Counterterrorism expert Barak 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:41.080 Seener in London says Iran, defeated on the battlefield, may 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.640 see a sleeper cell attack as the only way it 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:45.520 can hurt the United States. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.920 The entire identity of Iran is a terrorist state. The 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:54.400 reach is As global um. It attempted to conduct a 0:06:54.440 --> 0:07:02.719 proxy attack in the UK, in Sweden, in Argentina, Cyprus, Thailand. 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:06.000 And he believes Iran took full advantage of the Biden 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:11.080 administration's open border policies, in which millions of illegal migrants 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:12.360 entered the U.S.. 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:17.600 Hundreds, if not thousands of Iranian nationals passed through the 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:19.840 doors of the United States. 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:24.480 CBN's Chuck Holton has reported from Panama's Darien Gap, where 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.760 migrants must cross on their way to the United States. 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.080 And he says he encountered many Iranian men. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.960 Every Iranian that I met in the Darien Gap was 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.840 a military age male, and I didn't meet any Iranian 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:43.320 women at all. They mostly spoke English, so they were 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:48.000 well educated. And none of them were with their families. 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.790 Last year, the Justice Department uncovered an Iranian plot to 0:07:51.830 --> 0:07:55.910 kill Donald Trump before the election. Washington also knows that 0:07:55.910 --> 0:08:00.070 a Hezbollah sleeper cell called unit 910 is operating in 0:08:00.070 --> 0:08:04.870 the United States, ready to carry out Iran's orders. Iran, though, 0:08:04.910 --> 0:08:08.870 may also take a different route a cyber attack. The 0:08:08.870 --> 0:08:13.070 Commission on the National Defense Strategy warned senators last year 0:08:13.070 --> 0:08:17.310 that the United States is unprepared for a devastating cyber 0:08:17.310 --> 0:08:21.030 attack that will bring life in towns and cities across 0:08:21.030 --> 0:08:23.030 America to a standstill. 0:08:23.070 --> 0:08:27.910 The public is essentially clueless about the massive cyber attacks 0:08:27.910 --> 0:08:30.790 that could be launched any day by our adversaries, not 0:08:30.790 --> 0:08:34.069 just nation states, but rogue actors as well. 0:08:34.110 --> 0:08:37.230 Iran in the past has hacked into water systems in 0:08:37.230 --> 0:08:40.270 several states and could use what it's learned to attack 0:08:40.309 --> 0:08:46.790 America's critical infrastructure, including internet power, transportation, and financial systems, 0:08:46.790 --> 0:08:49.900 in an effort to make almost everything from phones to 0:08:49.940 --> 0:08:54.979 gas pumps to cash machines to traffic lights suddenly stop working. 0:08:55.020 --> 0:08:57.980 We're in a cyber cold war today. We've got vulnerabilities 0:08:57.980 --> 0:09:01.900 with air traffic radar systems. We've got vulnerabilities in our 0:09:01.900 --> 0:09:03.260 911 systems. 0:09:03.300 --> 0:09:07.939 The potential targets for Iran are numerous, and defending everything 0:09:07.940 --> 0:09:11.540 will be difficult. Dale Hurd CBN news. 0:09:12.179 --> 0:09:13.980 Well that was kind of like drinking from a fire 0:09:14.020 --> 0:09:16.100 hose wasn't it. I just gave you a whole bunch 0:09:16.100 --> 0:09:18.940 of news from the Middle East with Chris Mitchell talking 0:09:18.940 --> 0:09:21.020 about Iran and Israel and whether or not the cease 0:09:21.059 --> 0:09:23.939 fire will hold. And Dale Hurd and the concern of 0:09:23.940 --> 0:09:26.459 Iran's sleeper cells. So you know what? Just think on 0:09:26.460 --> 0:09:29.540 these things. Remember that God's in charge. Interesting time to 0:09:29.540 --> 0:09:31.780 be alive. Pray for those in authority. Pray for the 0:09:31.780 --> 0:09:35.459 innocent people in Iran and in Israel. And just remember 0:09:35.460 --> 0:09:37.460 that all of this is an indication that he is 0:09:37.460 --> 0:09:41.620 coming again. His return is imminent. One day closer than 0:09:41.620 --> 0:09:43.420 we were yesterday. And I don't know about you, but 0:09:43.420 --> 0:09:46.140 I go to bed every night saying, even so, come, 0:09:46.179 --> 0:09:49.100 Lord Jesus, we got lots to talk about. Stick around. 0:09:49.100 --> 0:09:57.380 We'll continue right after this. So many in our culture 0:09:57.380 --> 0:10:00.700 today are spiritually curious but hesitant about religion. That's why 0:10:00.700 --> 0:10:03.179 I've chosen. Have you ever wondered is this month's truth 0:10:03.179 --> 0:10:07.179 tool explore how everyday experiences might be the signpost pointing 0:10:07.220 --> 0:10:10.100 to deeper biblical truths. As for your copy of have 0:10:10.100 --> 0:10:11.820 you ever wondered when you give a gift of any 0:10:11.820 --> 0:10:15.660 amount to in the market, call 877 58, that's eight 0:10:15.700 --> 0:10:21.940 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Oh, 0:10:21.980 --> 0:10:25.140 have I been looking forward to this conversation. So put 0:10:25.140 --> 0:10:27.300 on your thinking caps because we're going to think critically 0:10:27.300 --> 0:10:29.580 and we're going to think biblically. First, I want to 0:10:29.580 --> 0:10:32.100 take a little bit of time here to introduce our guest, 0:10:32.100 --> 0:10:36.660 because I think he's an absolutely fascinating. Yes, yes, unbelievably gifted, 0:10:36.660 --> 0:10:39.780 but a fascinating gentleman. Doctor Casey Luskin is back on 0:10:39.780 --> 0:10:43.220 the air with us. He's a scientist and an attorney. Now, 0:10:43.260 --> 0:10:45.500 either one of those two career paths could have taken 0:10:45.610 --> 0:10:48.210 up your entire life. This gentleman pursues both. And I 0:10:48.210 --> 0:10:49.850 want to flesh this out a little bit because again, 0:10:49.850 --> 0:10:52.689 I'm going to use the word fascinating. Scientists and attorney. 0:10:52.730 --> 0:10:55.410 He's got grad degrees in science and law, so that 0:10:55.410 --> 0:10:57.770 makes him an expert in both the scientific and the 0:10:57.770 --> 0:11:01.410 legal dimensions of the debate over evolution. So let me 0:11:01.410 --> 0:11:03.450 tell you what his curriculum vitae says. He's got a 0:11:03.450 --> 0:11:07.490 PhD in geology from the University of Johannesburg, as in 0:11:07.490 --> 0:11:11.410 South Africa, where he specialized in paleomagnetism and the early 0:11:11.410 --> 0:11:15.929 plate tectonic history of South Africa. Not everybody does that, 0:11:15.929 --> 0:11:19.130 by the way. That's pretty impressive. He's earned a law 0:11:19.170 --> 0:11:21.290 degree from the University of San Diego. And guess what? 0:11:21.290 --> 0:11:24.130 He focused on First Amendment law. Kind of special to 0:11:24.130 --> 0:11:28.050 us on this program and education law and environmental law. 0:11:28.090 --> 0:11:31.850 Not one three areas of expertise. His undergrad degrees are 0:11:31.850 --> 0:11:34.690 in earth sciences from the University of California, San Diego, 0:11:34.690 --> 0:11:38.690 where he studied evolution extensively at the graduate and undergrad 0:11:38.690 --> 0:11:43.170 levels and conducted geological research at Scripps Institution of Oceanography. 0:11:43.450 --> 0:11:47.040 He has been a California licensed attorney since 2005, and 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.679 he practices primarily. If you didn't know this area exists, 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.960 it does. And cases there in the area of evolution, 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:59.120 education in public schools and defending academic freedom for scientists 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.960 who face discrimination because of their support for intelligent design. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.320 So his role at the Discovery Institute, and that's where 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.960 he joins us from. He works as an associate director 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.040 of the center for Science and Culture, where he helps 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.520 direct ID 3.0 research program and assist and defend scientists, 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.520 educators and students who seek to freely study, research and 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:25.200 teach about the scientific debate over Darwinism and intelligent design. Now, 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.400 I don't usually read a bio in its entirety, but 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.839 I just want you to know that we have on 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.760 our side, ladies and gentlemen, people who are academically gifted, 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:39.559 who have all of the acumen necessary to engage intelligently 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.120 in this debates. We are not contrary to an initial 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.960 impression made by the Washington Post. Poor, uneducated and easy 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.640 to command. Far from it. And the credentials in this 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.840 particular case before the jury of our peers has to 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:53.760 be that these are people who are learned, they've done 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.400 their homework, they understand the science. And our peer reviewed, 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.280 multiple degreed published and out there in the academic arenas. 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.440 I say that because this is not science for dummies, okay? 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.839 This is people who really and truly think this through. 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:08.560 And one of the reasons why I'm such an ardent 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.720 supporter of the Discovery Institute is because it really is 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.640 this panoply of thinkers, intellectuals, scientists, people who are in 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:19.320 the humanities. It's just this great group of people that 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.920 remind us that there is a strong intersection between faith 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.240 and public policy, faith and science, faith and critical thinking. 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.760 And KC really is exemplary of that. KC, I do 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:30.920 want to get into this challenge to Charles Darwin, but 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:32.680 I got to back up a little bit because you 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.800 are in many ways a Renaissance man. So the amalgamation 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.240 between science and law to me is I'll use the 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.950 word for the 19th time. Absolutely fascinating. What's your problem? 0:13:41.950 --> 0:13:43.790 You couldn't pick a major? Or did you want to 0:13:43.790 --> 0:13:45.030 see the two pulled together? 0:13:45.910 --> 0:13:48.150 I did have that problem, Janet. And. Wow, you really 0:13:48.150 --> 0:13:49.990 talked me up so much. Now, I hope I don't, 0:13:50.150 --> 0:13:54.070 you know, defeat your expectations here. Uh, but but, yeah, 0:13:54.110 --> 0:13:55.750 I mean, I did have the problem of trying to 0:13:55.750 --> 0:13:57.350 pick a major. I was one of those students where 0:13:57.350 --> 0:13:59.110 I finally picked a major when they forced you to. 0:13:59.150 --> 0:14:01.070 And you had so many credits that they said, hey, 0:14:01.070 --> 0:14:02.750 if you don't pick a major, we're kicking you out. 0:14:02.750 --> 0:14:05.590 So I chose Earth Sciences because that allowed me to 0:14:05.630 --> 0:14:09.190 study chemistry, biology and physics and computer science all in 0:14:09.190 --> 0:14:11.630 one major. And those are all things I enjoyed. So. 0:14:11.630 --> 0:14:13.270 So yeah, it was one of those kind of guys. 0:14:13.270 --> 0:14:16.429 Wow. But then the law I mean, this is something 0:14:16.429 --> 0:14:19.270 I know a little something about. And you decided to 0:14:19.270 --> 0:14:21.510 have a focus on First Amendment. Explain that to me. 0:14:22.390 --> 0:14:25.350 Well, yeah, I mean, I originally Janet, I went to 0:14:25.390 --> 0:14:27.350 law school because I just thought I needed to get 0:14:27.350 --> 0:14:29.550 a job. You know, I had this degree in earth sciences. Well, 0:14:29.550 --> 0:14:31.230 what can you do with that? You can go dig 0:14:31.230 --> 0:14:32.950 for oil in the desert. And I really didn't want 0:14:32.950 --> 0:14:35.110 to do that at that stage of my 23 year 0:14:35.150 --> 0:14:37.230 old life. So I decided to go to law school 0:14:37.230 --> 0:14:38.910 to get a job. But as I as I started 0:14:38.910 --> 0:14:41.350 going to law school, I. I realized there are so 0:14:41.430 --> 0:14:44.950 many important issues that intersect with the law. Originally, I 0:14:44.950 --> 0:14:47.870 wanted to do environmental law, which is a very important issue. 0:14:47.870 --> 0:14:50.070 But beyond that, you know, things that pertain to our 0:14:50.070 --> 0:14:52.950 worldviews and what students learn in the classroom. I began 0:14:52.950 --> 0:14:55.510 to realize that the law really intersects with some very 0:14:55.510 --> 0:14:58.710 important aspects of society. And so I specialized in First 0:14:58.710 --> 0:15:01.430 Amendment law because I was really concerned about what students 0:15:01.430 --> 0:15:03.870 are learning in public schools and how they were being 0:15:03.870 --> 0:15:07.150 indoctrinated on the topic of evolution. So that sort of 0:15:07.150 --> 0:15:09.350 led me down the path that I'm on today of 0:15:09.390 --> 0:15:12.230 dealing with the teaching of evolution in public schools and 0:15:12.230 --> 0:15:13.630 defending scientists. Yeah. 0:15:13.670 --> 0:15:15.950 Wow. Wow. Now and again, I want to thank you 0:15:15.950 --> 0:15:17.550 from the bottom of my heart for the gift of 0:15:17.550 --> 0:15:19.950 the time that you're giving me. I get the opportunity 0:15:19.950 --> 0:15:22.150 to ask a few follow up questions because of the 0:15:22.190 --> 0:15:24.390 gift of your time. And I'm fully cognizant that I 0:15:24.390 --> 0:15:26.310 can't replace it. So, Casey, that really does mean a 0:15:26.310 --> 0:15:28.030 lot to me. So let me go back to something 0:15:28.030 --> 0:15:30.070 in your journey, which is I get it, you want 0:15:30.070 --> 0:15:31.590 to put bread on the table. Law might be a 0:15:31.590 --> 0:15:33.310 good way to do it, but somewhere along that part 0:15:33.310 --> 0:15:37.350 of your Pilgrim's Progress, you had this aha phenomenon moment 0:15:37.350 --> 0:15:39.900 where you realized that there really was a crush against 0:15:39.900 --> 0:15:43.060 academic freedom, that you had to toe the line on 0:15:43.060 --> 0:15:46.700 this particular area of scientific investigation, or you were going 0:15:46.740 --> 0:15:48.980 to pay a price for it. Well, how did that 0:15:48.980 --> 0:15:51.220 evidence start to manifest itself in your journey? When did 0:15:51.220 --> 0:15:54.060 you begin to say, Uh-Oh, there's a pushback here. 0:15:55.140 --> 0:15:57.380 Well, yeah. So it started for me, actually, when I 0:15:57.380 --> 0:16:00.060 was an undergraduate student at UC San Diego. UC San 0:16:00.100 --> 0:16:03.220 Diego was one of the largest public universities for biology 0:16:03.220 --> 0:16:05.740 research in the country. And I was taking all these 0:16:05.740 --> 0:16:08.060 courses in evolution because that was just a topic that 0:16:08.060 --> 0:16:11.060 interested me. I was fascinated with the study of our origins, 0:16:11.300 --> 0:16:13.260 and I wanted to learn about it. And meanwhile, I 0:16:13.260 --> 0:16:16.020 was in my own time. I was reading books by people. 0:16:16.020 --> 0:16:17.900 I know you're going to recognize these names, Janet. People 0:16:17.900 --> 0:16:22.820 like Phillip Johnson, Michael Behe, Jonathan Wells. And I was 0:16:22.820 --> 0:16:27.060 realizing that there's this fascinating scientific debate going on over 0:16:27.340 --> 0:16:30.340 our origins between proponents of intelligent design. Those are all 0:16:30.340 --> 0:16:33.060 proponents of intelligent design for those who are not aware. 0:16:33.420 --> 0:16:36.820 And then also about what I was learning about evolution 0:16:37.090 --> 0:16:39.609 in my coursework at UC San Diego, and I realized 0:16:39.610 --> 0:16:43.090 that there's really this fascinating debate going on between intelligent 0:16:43.090 --> 0:16:46.530 design theorists and evolutionary scientists. But this debate was being 0:16:46.530 --> 0:16:49.890 completely left out of all of my science classes, really, 0:16:49.890 --> 0:16:53.010 I would say professors were either just completely unaware of 0:16:53.010 --> 0:16:55.330 this debate, or in some cases, they were sort of 0:16:55.370 --> 0:16:58.690 deliberately censoring it from the students and not allowing us 0:16:58.690 --> 0:17:01.010 to talk about this. So when I was an undergraduate 0:17:01.010 --> 0:17:03.490 at UC San Diego, I started a student club to 0:17:03.530 --> 0:17:06.449 help students to talk about this issue of where do 0:17:06.450 --> 0:17:08.570 we come from? And is it the result of evolution 0:17:08.570 --> 0:17:11.490 or intelligent design? We call this little club the Idea 0:17:11.490 --> 0:17:15.210 Club intelligent Design, evolution awareness. And that helped me then 0:17:15.330 --> 0:17:16.929 to realize that we need a venue, a way for 0:17:16.930 --> 0:17:19.169 students to learn about this. And that played into my 0:17:19.170 --> 0:17:21.890 desire in law school to help students be exposed. 0:17:23.369 --> 0:17:25.530 Wow, Casey, I have to tell you, that's an absolutely 0:17:25.530 --> 0:17:29.690 brilliant story of understanding the intersection between the two and 0:17:29.690 --> 0:17:33.210 really creating the opportunity for open dialogue and even to 0:17:33.250 --> 0:17:37.010 the scientific side, scientific exploration of all ideas. Follow the 0:17:37.010 --> 0:17:39.570 evidence where it leads. Doctor Casey Luskin is with us. 0:17:39.570 --> 0:17:41.450 For the rest of the hour, we're going to get 0:17:41.450 --> 0:17:43.290 to Intelligent Design and a fellow by the name of 0:17:43.290 --> 0:17:45.890 Charles Darwin in a minute, but more about Casey's journey 0:17:45.890 --> 0:17:59.090 when we return. We're visiting with Doctor Casey Luskin. He 0:17:59.130 --> 0:18:01.290 is the associate director of the center for Science and 0:18:01.290 --> 0:18:04.450 Culture at the Discovery Institute. And we're going to get 0:18:04.450 --> 0:18:08.290 to Charles Darwin and the wager and its intersection with 0:18:08.290 --> 0:18:11.370 intelligent Design in a minute. Absolutely fascinating. But I just 0:18:11.369 --> 0:18:13.330 want you to understand the lay of the land. These 0:18:13.330 --> 0:18:16.050 are so there are so many people who hold a 0:18:16.050 --> 0:18:17.970 worldview that says, wait a minute. I don't think the 0:18:17.970 --> 0:18:21.690 evidence leads to where Darwinian posture of the origin of species, 0:18:21.690 --> 0:18:24.330 I just I don't think the evidence leads to that end. 0:18:24.490 --> 0:18:27.369 You could have a boatload of initials after your name. 0:18:27.369 --> 0:18:32.330 And if you are at certain areas of of academic pursuit. 0:18:32.330 --> 0:18:35.080 And my husband has represented these people in. Casey knows 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.520 this as well. They'll just shut you out. They won't 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.879 let you get published. You don't get tenure at a university. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.520 It is the new modern witchhunt which raises, even though 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.480 I appeal to you as both a scientist and an attorney, Casey, 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:52.040 why the dreaded anathema of intelligent design in what should 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:56.439 be a pursuit for scientific substantiation based on where the 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.520 evidence leads? This is all theory. Why would you completely 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.199 hack one theory out and say, drink the Kool-Aid? You 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:03.360 must subscribe to this. 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.400 What you're asking, Janet, is a very important question. It's 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:11.800 also a complicated sociological question. In fact, the famous historian 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:16.560 of science, Thomas Kuhn, he found that historically, when a 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.320 new paradigm comes up to challenge a reigning paradigm, he 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.680 says that scientists are typically intolerant of these new ideas 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.760 that challenge the reigning paradigm within scientific fields. And this 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.720 is fairly, you know, not too hard to understand. Basically, 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:36.390 scientists invest their entire careers on particular ideas, particular paradigms 0:19:36.390 --> 0:19:39.790 that sort of govern their fields. And so they've invested 0:19:39.790 --> 0:19:42.990 papers that they've published research, they've done instruments that they've 0:19:42.990 --> 0:19:46.430 done their entire reputations upon these ideas. And so when 0:19:46.430 --> 0:19:50.310 some new idea comes in to challenge those reigning paradigms, 0:19:50.310 --> 0:19:53.150 it's often treated with some contempt. And this is exactly 0:19:53.310 --> 0:19:56.790 what is going on with intelligent design and Darwinian evolution 0:19:57.070 --> 0:19:59.949 right now. Neo-darwinian evolution, for better or for worse, is 0:19:59.950 --> 0:20:04.190 the reigning paradigm within biology for how life arose and 0:20:04.470 --> 0:20:08.030 and diversified to all the forms we see today. Intelligent 0:20:08.030 --> 0:20:11.030 design is coming in and saying, actually, there are other 0:20:11.030 --> 0:20:14.550 scientific ways to look at this question that are not mechanistic, 0:20:14.550 --> 0:20:18.149 that are not naturalistic. We can actually use our understanding 0:20:18.150 --> 0:20:20.710 of what intelligent agents to do, can do to better 0:20:20.710 --> 0:20:24.750 understand how we can explain the complexity of biology. And 0:20:24.750 --> 0:20:27.389 so you have all these evolutionary scientists who say, no, no, no, no, no, 0:20:27.430 --> 0:20:30.870 we've staked our careers on this evolutionary model. But then 0:20:30.869 --> 0:20:33.790 with the whole ID evolution debate, you have this additional 0:20:34.150 --> 0:20:37.470 component that worldviews are coming into play because we're getting 0:20:37.470 --> 0:20:41.110 this very, sort of personal, very emotional topic of where 0:20:41.109 --> 0:20:43.150 do we come from? And what does this mean for 0:20:43.150 --> 0:20:45.630 me personally, in my own worldview, that I hold and 0:20:45.630 --> 0:20:47.550 the way I live my life? So it's a lot 0:20:47.550 --> 0:20:50.910 more than just typical sort of scientific sociology going on here. 0:20:50.910 --> 0:20:52.750 You also have a lot of worldviews that are coming 0:20:52.750 --> 0:20:55.630 into play. It's very difficult for people to accept new 0:20:55.630 --> 0:20:59.389 ideas and be tolerant to them. So unfortunately, as you said, Janet, 0:20:59.390 --> 0:21:02.629 we've seen a lot of intolerance and persecution of pro-id 0:21:02.630 --> 0:21:06.150 scientists in academia. We tell many, many stories of this. 0:21:06.190 --> 0:21:08.830 Yeah, true. And Casey, you are so deeply involved in this. 0:21:08.830 --> 0:21:11.310 And I mean, it really is awful to know that 0:21:11.310 --> 0:21:15.469 someone has worked arduously to advance their career scientifically and 0:21:15.470 --> 0:21:18.710 academically and simply because of the worldview. And I'm so 0:21:18.710 --> 0:21:20.870 thrilled that you used that word. We talk about that 0:21:20.869 --> 0:21:24.190 all the time on this broadcast. It's about developing. We 0:21:24.190 --> 0:21:27.190 try to develop through this program a biblio centric worldview. 0:21:27.390 --> 0:21:30.780 But worldviews are not all accepted in the marketplace of ideas. 0:21:30.780 --> 0:21:34.300 And so these scientists, these academicians don't get their papers published. 0:21:34.300 --> 0:21:37.140 They don't get tenure granted simply because of a worldview 0:21:37.180 --> 0:21:40.140 that they hold, which is egregious to me because it 0:21:40.180 --> 0:21:44.380 really defies and denies. It seems to me the whole 0:21:44.380 --> 0:21:47.980 idea of scientific pursuit. As a lawyer, you understand that 0:21:47.980 --> 0:21:50.300 Lady Justice is blindfolded. She holds above her head the 0:21:50.300 --> 0:21:53.500 scales of justice, and the evidence tips the scale one 0:21:53.500 --> 0:21:56.740 way or the other. There's a paradigm parallel here with science. 0:21:56.940 --> 0:22:00.100 You are looking at where the evidence leads based on 0:22:00.100 --> 0:22:04.060 the evidence that's pursued through scientific investigation. What we're seeing 0:22:04.060 --> 0:22:07.820 in this blind allegiance to Darwinism is don't trouble me 0:22:07.820 --> 0:22:10.180 with the facts. Don't mess with my mind and what 0:22:10.180 --> 0:22:14.700 the evidence might be. I need this worldview concretized secured 0:22:14.700 --> 0:22:17.420 and never challenged because it will impact me in all 0:22:17.420 --> 0:22:21.020 the ways you just brilliantly described. That means science has 0:22:21.020 --> 0:22:23.100 taken a step backward, not forward, doesn't it? 0:22:24.020 --> 0:22:26.860 That's exactly right. Look, I personally am a big fan 0:22:26.859 --> 0:22:28.770 of science. I think science is a great tool that 0:22:28.770 --> 0:22:31.250 can help us to understand the world that we live in. 0:22:32.010 --> 0:22:34.370 But as you said, science is supposed to be sort 0:22:34.369 --> 0:22:36.330 of blind. It's supposed to be neutral. That's the great. 0:22:36.330 --> 0:22:38.530 That's one of the great things about science. It's whatever 0:22:38.530 --> 0:22:42.209 their worldview, their personal religious views or non-religious views or 0:22:42.210 --> 0:22:45.730 whatever they are, the evidence is publicly available to everyone. 0:22:45.730 --> 0:22:48.170 We can all see the evidence and see what it's saying. 0:22:48.290 --> 0:22:49.770 And so science is supposed to be sort of this 0:22:49.770 --> 0:22:53.290 neutral arbiter of truth. But unfortunately, science is also an 0:22:53.290 --> 0:22:56.130 endeavor run by human beings, and human beings are not 0:22:56.130 --> 0:22:59.210 always perfectly objective robots. Uh, as much as we would 0:22:59.210 --> 0:23:01.650 like them to be, we just aren't. And so people 0:23:01.650 --> 0:23:04.770 get into political situations where, I mean, this is true 0:23:04.770 --> 0:23:07.450 in every field of science. And if you think that, yes, 0:23:07.890 --> 0:23:09.729 it's not true that this is sort of a wake 0:23:09.770 --> 0:23:12.770 up call. Scientists are human beings, and they're very capable 0:23:12.770 --> 0:23:16.170 of engaging in politics and maneuvers to sort of marginalize 0:23:16.170 --> 0:23:18.210 certain ideas that they don't like. And we see this 0:23:18.210 --> 0:23:21.450 throughout scientific fields, even the fields that are totally non-ideological. 0:23:21.650 --> 0:23:23.890 Anybody who's a scientist that listening to this right now 0:23:23.890 --> 0:23:26.370 knows what I'm saying is true. They've all experienced this. 0:23:26.530 --> 0:23:30.330 Science can be highly political, and unfortunately, sometimes views don't 0:23:30.330 --> 0:23:33.010 get the hearing they deserve. The evidence is not weighed 0:23:33.010 --> 0:23:35.290 as it should be within the scientific community. It's just 0:23:35.290 --> 0:23:36.210 just the way it is. 0:23:36.250 --> 0:23:38.850 Absolutely. And if you don't mind, I love the richness 0:23:38.850 --> 0:23:41.090 of this conversation. So let me dig a little bit deeper, 0:23:41.090 --> 0:23:43.449 because really, I want our friends to learn how to 0:23:43.450 --> 0:23:45.970 think critically and biblically. So there's a continuum here not 0:23:45.970 --> 0:23:48.610 to go on a rabbit trail, but to take exactly 0:23:48.609 --> 0:23:50.889 the framework that you just identified. And I want to 0:23:50.890 --> 0:23:52.489 pick it up and drop it over another section of 0:23:52.490 --> 0:23:56.010 a current cultural debate that allegedly involves science. And that 0:23:56.010 --> 0:23:58.370 is our inability nowadays to identify who is a man 0:23:58.369 --> 0:24:01.170 and who is a woman, based on scientific evidence x 0:24:01.170 --> 0:24:04.369 x x y. Now, because of the confusion, as you 0:24:04.410 --> 0:24:07.930 so rightly noted before, of politics, of an agenda, of 0:24:07.930 --> 0:24:10.649 a particular worldview, I don't bother me with the facts. 0:24:10.650 --> 0:24:13.570 My worldview needs to be advanced at any cost, ever. 0:24:13.810 --> 0:24:16.690 Not only is that bad science, it's situational ethics, and 0:24:16.690 --> 0:24:21.290 it makes science step backwards rather than step forward. Now, Casey, 0:24:21.290 --> 0:24:22.490 I could do the rest of the hour on this 0:24:22.490 --> 0:24:24.770 with you. What a wonderful conversation. But I want to 0:24:24.770 --> 0:24:28.520 go back to Charles Darwin and a challenge that you 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:31.400 at Discovery Institute just put out. And some of the 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.480 theories that old Mr. Darwin held and whether or not 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:37.000 there is an intersection, did he stumble on one an 0:24:37.000 --> 0:25:01.080 intelligent design. We'll talk about that when we return. Jesus 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:02.960 told us to go into the world and not run 0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:04.840 away from it, and he didn't say it would be easy. 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:06.879 In the market with Janet Parshall is a program designed 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:09.119 to come alongside and walk with you into the marketplace 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:11.840 of ideas. Partial partners are those friends who support our 0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:14.480 program on a regular monthly basis. They know the mandate 0:25:14.480 --> 0:25:17.200 of influencing and occupying until he comes. So why don't 0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:19.720 you become part of the inner circle of support? Call 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:23.080 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with 0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:27.399 Janet Parshall. Oh, what a treat and a joy to 0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:29.760 spend time with doctor Casey Luskin. He is the associate 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:32.840 director of the center for Science and Culture at the 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:36.000 Discovery Institute. I have links all over my info page 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:37.800 so you can learn more. If you don't know about 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:41.080 the Discovery Institute or you are missing something. Get to 0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:43.720 know these people. Wonderful work that they do. They are 0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:47.840 influencing the culture in such a profoundly important way. Casey, 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:50.400 as I noted earlier, is both a geologist and an 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:53.320 attorney by training, and that makes him a real expert 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:55.719 when it comes to this intersection between science and the 0:25:55.720 --> 0:25:59.080 legal dimensions of the debate over evolution. So, Casey, you 0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:02.560 put a piece out through discovery called what? Actually, it 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:05.320 showed up in Evolution News, where basically the title was 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:10.480 most intriguing. Intelligent design passes the Dawkins test. Now, okay, 0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:14.560 so Richard Dawkins is out there, uh, subscribing to the 0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:18.200 idea that he doesn't believe in the concept of intelligent 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:20.680 design and yet put out a kind of wager in 0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:23.310 some respect. Now, for those of us who do not 0:26:23.310 --> 0:26:25.910 have all of the initials after their name like you do, 0:26:25.950 --> 0:26:28.229 move slowly through this one. So tell me, first of all, 0:26:28.230 --> 0:26:30.590 for people who don't know about Dawkins and The God 0:26:30.630 --> 0:26:34.710 Delusion and his work, um, why did he decide that 0:26:34.710 --> 0:26:37.230 there would be? Why did you decide that a challenge 0:26:37.230 --> 0:26:41.070 had to be put before Dawkins on this particular subject 0:26:41.109 --> 0:26:42.389 of intelligent design? 0:26:43.270 --> 0:26:45.910 Yeah, sure. Janet. So I'm sure that many listeners have 0:26:45.910 --> 0:26:48.629 heard of Richard Dawkins. He's one of the world's most 0:26:48.630 --> 0:26:53.150 famous evolutionary biologists and also an outspoken and aggressive advocate 0:26:53.150 --> 0:26:55.350 for atheism. You mentioned his book, The God Delusion. It 0:26:55.350 --> 0:26:58.030 was very much a came out in 2006. It was 0:26:58.030 --> 0:27:01.429 a very aggressive book against belief in God, against the 0:27:01.430 --> 0:27:05.350 biblical God and all those things. So at Discovery Institute, 0:27:05.350 --> 0:27:08.510 we've been reviewing Dawkins work for many years and also 0:27:08.510 --> 0:27:11.830 keeping up with the scientific literature. And we recently discovered 0:27:11.830 --> 0:27:14.710 that he has put out a very clear test for 0:27:14.710 --> 0:27:19.429 determining whether evolution or intelligent design is true. And we 0:27:19.470 --> 0:27:21.429 were talking earlier about science, how you're supposed to be 0:27:21.580 --> 0:27:24.460 able to, you know, weigh the evidence objectively. Well, how 0:27:24.460 --> 0:27:26.939 I just do that. Well, typically, when scientists will weigh 0:27:26.940 --> 0:27:29.460 the evidence, they will make. See, if a theory is 0:27:29.460 --> 0:27:32.939 making predictions that you can test. And Dawkins is actually 0:27:32.940 --> 0:27:36.419 laid out a clear prediction for evolution and also a 0:27:36.420 --> 0:27:40.180 clear prediction for intelligent design. But the problem for Dawkins 0:27:40.180 --> 0:27:42.580 is that it turns out that the prediction did not go, 0:27:43.020 --> 0:27:45.859 I believe as he expected, as he as he expected. 0:27:45.859 --> 0:27:49.060 And the data actually fulfills a clear prediction that he 0:27:49.060 --> 0:27:51.979 laid out for intelligent design, rather than the prediction that 0:27:51.980 --> 0:27:54.820 he laid out for evolution. So the test that he 0:27:54.820 --> 0:27:57.500 laid out is like this. He said that if Darwinian 0:27:57.500 --> 0:28:01.100 evolution is correct, then every gene in a group of 0:28:01.100 --> 0:28:04.939 organisms in their DNA will give approximately the same tree 0:28:04.940 --> 0:28:07.540 of life. Okay. When you see those evolutionary trees in 0:28:07.540 --> 0:28:11.700 textbooks or on PBS Nova documentaries that show how different 0:28:11.700 --> 0:28:14.220 organisms are related, what they do is they will sequence 0:28:14.220 --> 0:28:17.580 the genes of organisms and compare those genes, and based 0:28:17.580 --> 0:28:20.820 upon which organisms have more similar genes, they will group 0:28:20.820 --> 0:28:23.620 them closer or more further apart on those trees. So 0:28:23.619 --> 0:28:26.100 what Dawkins said is that every gene in a group 0:28:26.100 --> 0:28:29.500 of organisms will give you approximately the same tree of life, 0:28:29.500 --> 0:28:33.300 or even the perfect congruency between different trees of life. 0:28:33.700 --> 0:28:36.020 But if idea is correct, on the other hand, he 0:28:36.020 --> 0:28:38.459 said that the designer could have picked and chosen the 0:28:38.460 --> 0:28:41.660 best proteins for each job in each organism. And in 0:28:41.700 --> 0:28:43.940 that case, he says that the genes would not all 0:28:43.940 --> 0:28:45.980 give you the same tree of life. You would not 0:28:45.980 --> 0:28:48.740 get consistency. When you look at one gene, it might 0:28:48.740 --> 0:28:51.060 give you a different tree of life rather than each 0:28:51.060 --> 0:28:53.340 gene giving you the same tree of life. So it's 0:28:53.340 --> 0:28:56.620 a simple test that Dawkins has set up two competing 0:28:56.620 --> 0:29:00.180 predictions for evolution, one for intelligent design, and he says 0:29:00.180 --> 0:29:04.700 that evolution predicts perfect congruency among different representations of the 0:29:04.700 --> 0:29:07.580 tree of life. And he says this evidence is so powerful, 0:29:07.580 --> 0:29:11.300 his words that it proves evolution is true. On the 0:29:11.300 --> 0:29:14.260 other hand, he gives sort of conflicts between these different 0:29:14.260 --> 0:29:17.219 trees of life based upon different genes as the prediction 0:29:17.220 --> 0:29:20.250 of intelligent design, or what he actually calls the alternative 0:29:20.250 --> 0:29:22.810 to evolution. So this is sort of the test that 0:29:22.810 --> 0:29:24.250 Dawkins has laid out for us. 0:29:25.130 --> 0:29:27.330 So you write about this in your article. You say 0:29:27.330 --> 0:29:30.090 that in his 2009 book, The Greatest Show on Earth 0:29:30.090 --> 0:29:33.410 The Evidence for evolution. This is really where he said 0:29:33.410 --> 0:29:37.210 he has he from his perspective, this is extremely powerful 0:29:37.210 --> 0:29:40.730 evidence for evolution. But as you point out, he comes 0:29:40.730 --> 0:29:42.650 up with a kind of conflicted result. Here. Talk to 0:29:42.650 --> 0:29:43.530 me about this. 0:29:44.250 --> 0:29:46.450 So yeah, so I don't know if Dawkins actually will 0:29:46.490 --> 0:29:49.930 acknowledges what the data really says, but Dawkins says basically 0:29:49.930 --> 0:29:53.530 that if intelligent design is correct, then different genes should 0:29:53.530 --> 0:29:55.450 give you different versions of the tree of life. And 0:29:55.450 --> 0:29:58.170 if evolution is correct, then essentially every gene should give 0:29:58.170 --> 0:30:00.650 you the same version of the life. Well, anybody who 0:30:00.650 --> 0:30:04.130 has studied the field of evolutionary systematics, which is the 0:30:04.130 --> 0:30:07.410 field that basically constructs these evolutionary trees, or as they're 0:30:07.410 --> 0:30:11.290 often called, phylogenetic trees, everybody who works in this field 0:30:11.290 --> 0:30:17.880 knows that conflicts between different trees is very, very common. 0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:19.960 And then in fact, one gene will give you one 0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:22.280 version of the tree of life, and another gene will 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:24.440 give you a very different or conflicting version of the 0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:26.840 tree of life. And we actually dug up some very 0:30:26.840 --> 0:30:30.480 recent scientific papers, um, to, to document this. So here's 0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:33.880 a paper in a book titled phylogenetics in the Genomic ERA. 0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:38.560 It says conflicting phylogenetic signals between genes is commonplace. Or 0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:43.320 a paper in proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA, uh, 0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:47.880 says an immediate challenge is to address pervasive conflict observed 0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:52.800 in whole genome data or phylogenetic conflict, where genes disagree 0:30:52.920 --> 0:30:56.080 about the tree of life is common across genomes and 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:58.560 throughout the tree of life. So this is all, you know, 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:02.120 statements coming from the mainstream scientific literature. And basically what's 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:06.480 happening is you are not getting consistency among the genetic 0:31:06.720 --> 0:31:10.360 code of different organisms. That fits what we would expect 0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:14.040 if common ancestry is true, the idea that all living 0:31:14.040 --> 0:31:18.240 organisms is related. Essentially, we're finding that there are conflicts 0:31:18.240 --> 0:31:22.040 between different trees because there are similarities and differences popping 0:31:22.040 --> 0:31:24.600 up in the genomes of organisms that is not being 0:31:24.600 --> 0:31:29.160 predicted by this idea of common ancestry. So basically, Dawkins 0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:33.080 prediction for evolution has failed. And instead that he gave 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:35.920 for intelligent design has turned out to be correct. 0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:38.640 Well, okay, so much to unpack. Now. Again, this is 0:31:38.640 --> 0:31:40.760 this is talking to me science for dummies. So let 0:31:40.760 --> 0:31:42.520 me if I can break this down, I thought one 0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:46.280 of the hallmarks of Darwinism was randomness. So if you're 0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:47.960 going to look and I want you to break down 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:49.720 the tree of life and just put skin on that, 0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:52.400 show me what that would look like as something I 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:54.560 could see with my eyes. In other words, rather than 0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:59.640 going into the atmospherics of genomes and DNA patterns, etc., 0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:02.440 tell me what that would look like if Darwinism was right. 0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:06.120 If Dawkins's idea is that you would see this replicated pattern, 0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:08.719 as opposed to an intelligent designer who picks and chooses 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:12.000 the proteins that comes out with a different outcome, where's 0:32:12.000 --> 0:32:13.920 randomness in that first off? 0:32:14.270 --> 0:32:16.950 Well, maybe Janet, we could back up a little bit 0:32:16.950 --> 0:32:20.350 and I could explain how these evolutionary trees are constructed, 0:32:20.350 --> 0:32:23.270 and that might help to understand why this prediction is 0:32:23.270 --> 0:32:26.550 so important for evolution, why it doesn't work. So when 0:32:26.550 --> 0:32:30.110 you see these evolutionary trees in textbooks or scientific papers, 0:32:30.110 --> 0:32:33.350 or as I said, PBS Nova documentaries, they can be 0:32:33.350 --> 0:32:36.030 constructed in one of two ways. You can compare the 0:32:36.030 --> 0:32:38.670 body structure of an organism, you know, its skeletal traits 0:32:38.670 --> 0:32:40.830 or the organs that it has or, or some of 0:32:40.830 --> 0:32:43.510 the abilities that it has. Can it use echolocation to 0:32:43.510 --> 0:32:46.310 find food? Does it have two eyes or or six eyes? 0:32:46.310 --> 0:32:48.229 How many legs does it have? You can use the 0:32:48.230 --> 0:32:51.150 body structures of an organisms. Or the second way you 0:32:51.150 --> 0:32:54.590 can build these trees is you can compare gene sequences. Essentially, 0:32:54.590 --> 0:32:57.950 we're talking about the sequence of nucleotide bases in the 0:32:57.950 --> 0:33:02.390 DNA or the sequences of amino acids in proteins. And 0:33:02.390 --> 0:33:06.469 those organisms with more similar gene sequence are said to 0:33:06.470 --> 0:33:09.670 be more closely related. Now, the problem is, is that 0:33:09.670 --> 0:33:12.310 genes don't always give you the same tree. In other words, 0:33:12.310 --> 0:33:15.910 you get similarities between organisms that are not predicted if 0:33:15.910 --> 0:33:18.030 they all shared a common ancestor. Let me give you 0:33:18.030 --> 0:33:20.030 a hypothetical example that I think will explain this. 0:33:20.070 --> 0:33:21.110 Okay, good. 0:33:21.150 --> 0:33:24.030 Let's say that you, your sister and your next door 0:33:24.030 --> 0:33:28.550 neighbor all did that 23 and me chromosome test. Okay. 0:33:28.590 --> 0:33:30.470 I'm sure we've all heard of that. And you get 0:33:30.470 --> 0:33:33.310 back the sequences of your genes. So you look at 0:33:33.310 --> 0:33:36.150 one gene. Let's say it's the gene for cytochrome c 0:33:36.190 --> 0:33:39.270 a very important bodies. And this gene tells you exactly 0:33:39.270 --> 0:33:41.830 what you and your sister and your next door neighbor 0:33:41.830 --> 0:33:45.150 might expect. Essentially, what the what the 23 Andme test 0:33:45.150 --> 0:33:48.790 shows is that your gene sequence is more similar to 0:33:48.830 --> 0:33:51.550 that of your sister than it is between you and 0:33:51.550 --> 0:33:53.990 your next door neighbor, right? Because you're more closely related 0:33:53.990 --> 0:33:56.150 to your sister. So you would expect that your gene 0:33:56.150 --> 0:33:58.830 sequence is going to be more similar between you and 0:33:58.830 --> 0:34:01.310 her than between you and your next door neighbor, who 0:34:01.350 --> 0:34:04.270 you're probably related to. If you go very far back, 0:34:04.270 --> 0:34:06.670 but you're not really closely related to your next door neighbor. 0:34:07.070 --> 0:34:09.750 So let's say you take another gene sequence. This is 0:34:09.750 --> 0:34:12.980 for another gene in our bodies called beta globin, and 0:34:12.980 --> 0:34:16.380 this gene shows something you didn't expect. This time, your 0:34:16.380 --> 0:34:19.420 gene sequence is much more similar to your next door 0:34:19.420 --> 0:34:22.660 neighbor's gene sequence than it is to your sister's. So 0:34:22.660 --> 0:34:24.980 even though you're supposed to be much more closely related 0:34:24.980 --> 0:34:27.900 to your sister than you are to your next door neighbor, 0:34:28.020 --> 0:34:30.380 somehow when you look at this gene, it makes it 0:34:30.380 --> 0:34:32.859 look like you are more closely related to your next 0:34:32.860 --> 0:34:35.780 door neighbor than to your sister. So I'm making this up. 0:34:35.780 --> 0:34:38.700 But now let's say let's talk about real world data. 0:34:38.900 --> 0:34:44.219 Now imagine that you have used scientific tools to sequence hundreds, 0:34:44.219 --> 0:34:49.020 if not thousands of genes across many different species of organisms. 0:34:49.219 --> 0:34:51.219 And you've now done a similar kind of analysis on 0:34:51.219 --> 0:34:55.060 the macro scale. And according to Darwinism, all of those 0:34:55.060 --> 0:34:59.140 species are related through common ancestry. Okay. What you see 0:34:59.180 --> 0:35:01.140 is over and over is that one gene gives you 0:35:01.180 --> 0:35:05.060 one version of the relationships between those organisms. One version 0:35:05.060 --> 0:35:07.379 of the tree of life. And a different gene gives 0:35:07.380 --> 0:35:10.729 you a very different or conflicting version of how those 0:35:10.730 --> 0:35:13.930 organisms are related or, you know, the tree of life. Again, 0:35:13.930 --> 0:35:16.850 this is exactly what Dawkins says evolution does not predict. 0:35:17.170 --> 0:35:20.330 But it's what intelligent design does predict. And yet this 0:35:20.330 --> 0:35:22.810 is what we find. We find that we that organisms, 0:35:22.810 --> 0:35:25.489 when you sequence their genes and you try to organize, 0:35:25.530 --> 0:35:29.250 organize them into an evolutionary tree, it does not fit 0:35:29.250 --> 0:35:31.770 with a nice, neat evolutionary tree. It's kind of like 0:35:31.770 --> 0:35:35.370 you might call it a mess. Okay. Now, you mentioned randomness. Well, 0:35:35.370 --> 0:35:38.370 it's true that mutations in evolution are random. But what 0:35:38.370 --> 0:35:42.290 is not random are the lines event. Okay. Every organism 0:35:42.290 --> 0:35:47.049 is supposedly related according to evolution through a line of 0:35:47.050 --> 0:35:50.689 descent tracing back to a common ancestor. And there's only 0:35:50.690 --> 0:35:53.650 one way that all of these different organisms are related. 0:35:53.650 --> 0:35:56.330 If you go back, you know you're supposedly related not 0:35:56.330 --> 0:35:57.969 just to every human on earth, but also to your 0:35:57.969 --> 0:36:00.770 pet dog or cat, also to the birds in the 0:36:00.770 --> 0:36:02.930 trees and the fungus that are growing on the bottom 0:36:02.930 --> 0:36:05.370 of your foot. And the tree of life unfolded in 0:36:05.370 --> 0:36:07.730 only one way. So you should be able to see 0:36:07.730 --> 0:36:10.250 that tree of life when we sequenced genes, and there 0:36:10.250 --> 0:36:13.730 should be a consistent tree and we get total inconsistency. 0:36:13.730 --> 0:36:15.810 When you look at different genes and the way they're 0:36:15.810 --> 0:36:17.410 sequenced and the way they paint a picture of this 0:36:17.410 --> 0:36:20.529 tree of life, it's not what Darwinian evolution predicts. 0:36:21.090 --> 0:36:24.330 Casey, that was a brilliant way to understand that distinctiveness. 0:36:24.330 --> 0:36:25.770 So when we come back, I want to talk more 0:36:25.770 --> 0:36:29.370 about Dawkins. Now, remember when we talked quickly about his biography? 0:36:29.410 --> 0:36:32.489 Remember he wrote this book that rocked the globe was 0:36:32.489 --> 0:36:35.770 a bestseller called The God Delusion. Now, here's where I 0:36:35.770 --> 0:36:38.890 also find a parallel between Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins. 0:36:38.890 --> 0:36:41.850 We'll talk about that with Doctor Casey Luskin right after this. 0:37:01.290 --> 0:37:03.610 Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply, 0:37:03.610 --> 0:37:06.209 or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool 0:37:06.210 --> 0:37:08.640 this month is a thought provoking book that explores those 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:10.920 moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called Have You 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:14.239 Ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:17.520 the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have 0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:19.160 you ever wondered when you give a gift of any 0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:24.480 amount in the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 0:37:24.480 --> 0:37:26.920 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall for 0:37:26.920 --> 0:37:32.200 a fascinating conversation with Doctor Casey Luskin, who's the associate 0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:35.759 director of the center for Science and Culture at the 0:37:35.760 --> 0:37:37.680 Discovery Institute. By the way, I've got a link to 0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:39.839 this article so that you can read it in its 0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:42.480 entirety on our information page, and I want you to 0:37:42.480 --> 0:37:45.279 check that out. So we were talking before about his 0:37:45.280 --> 0:37:48.120 seminal book, The God Delusion, which caused people around the 0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:51.479 globe to literally start talking. But just like Darwin set 0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:54.239 out to disprove God and he makes this clear, I 0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:56.680 think more in the Descent of Man than the Origin 0:37:56.719 --> 0:38:00.040 of Species. But I find it interesting that Dawkins likewise 0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:02.680 has a marked animus against God. In talking about this 0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:05.239 idea of the tree of Life, he says, and you 0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:07.310 wrote about this in your article and two interviews. He 0:38:07.310 --> 0:38:10.270 did 1 in 2009 and 1 in 2010. The only 0:38:10.270 --> 0:38:12.430 alternative to it being a family tree is that the 0:38:12.430 --> 0:38:15.430 intelligent designer deliberately set out to deceive us, and the 0:38:15.430 --> 0:38:19.469 most underhanded and devious manner. Hmm. An anthropological argument to 0:38:19.510 --> 0:38:22.150 a God he doesn't believe in. Then in 2010, he says, 0:38:22.390 --> 0:38:24.109 the only way you could get out of saying that 0:38:24.110 --> 0:38:26.430 that proves that evolution is true is by saying that 0:38:26.430 --> 0:38:30.670 the intelligent designer God here identifies him, deliberately, set out 0:38:30.670 --> 0:38:34.910 to lie to us, deliberately set out to deceive us. Okay. 0:38:35.710 --> 0:38:38.189 Methinks he doth protest too much. So his animus toward 0:38:38.190 --> 0:38:40.150 a god he allegedly doesn't believe in, I find to 0:38:40.150 --> 0:38:43.790 be very interesting. But more importantly, he's subscribing. Motive. Now 0:38:43.790 --> 0:38:46.750 this is where worldview comes in, not scientific deliberation. Talk 0:38:46.750 --> 0:38:47.630 to me about this. 0:38:50.110 --> 0:38:55.150 Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Janet, Richard Dawkins has his own worldview. Um, 0:38:55.190 --> 0:38:57.390 in that delusion, he called the God of the Bible 0:38:57.430 --> 0:39:02.469 a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak, a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, 0:39:02.630 --> 0:39:12.230 a misogynistic, homophobic, racist. infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, 0:39:12.430 --> 0:39:15.069 malevolent bully. I can't even say it. I mean, it's 0:39:15.070 --> 0:39:18.870 just so, so clearly Dawkins has his own views about God. 0:39:19.110 --> 0:39:21.109 And if you think that that does not affect, you know, 0:39:21.150 --> 0:39:23.790 the way that he approaches science. Well. I'm sorry. He's 0:39:23.790 --> 0:39:26.510 a human being. I'm not. This is nothing to single 0:39:26.510 --> 0:39:29.710 out for special criticism. All of us have our own 0:39:29.710 --> 0:39:33.150 worldviews that color the way that we interpret things. And 0:39:33.150 --> 0:39:36.390 Dawkins is certainly not alone in having a worldview, but 0:39:36.390 --> 0:39:38.790 he has a worldview, and we should understand that. It's 0:39:38.790 --> 0:39:41.790 a pretty strong worldview. So, I mean, I'm look, I'm 0:39:41.790 --> 0:39:44.549 not against singling out Dawkins here for special criticism. It's 0:39:44.550 --> 0:39:46.950 just more to make the broader point that scientists are 0:39:46.950 --> 0:39:50.350 human beings and that these things come into play when 0:39:50.350 --> 0:39:53.910 people interpret this data. Um, and so Richard Dawkins, I 0:39:53.910 --> 0:39:57.670 don't think that he has ever acknowledged to my knowledge 0:39:57.710 --> 0:40:01.189 that his prediction for evolution and intelligent design that we're 0:40:01.190 --> 0:40:03.899 talking about here today, that, you know, these evolutionary trees 0:40:03.940 --> 0:40:07.100 are conflicting. I don't know if he's ever actually acknowledged 0:40:07.260 --> 0:40:10.300 that his prediction for evolution failed. I certainly hope he would, 0:40:10.340 --> 0:40:12.460 because I think that a scientist should acknowledge what the 0:40:12.460 --> 0:40:15.500 data really says. Um, but I don't know if will 0:40:15.500 --> 0:40:17.460 his worldview let him do that? I hope it does. 0:40:17.460 --> 0:40:19.100 But really, that's not for me to say. 0:40:19.739 --> 0:40:21.860 Well, you took me exactly where I wanted to go, Casey. 0:40:21.860 --> 0:40:23.660 Which is okay. Now. He's been, in the words of 0:40:23.660 --> 0:40:26.700 the great Bard, hoisted on his own petard so the 0:40:26.700 --> 0:40:30.259 evidence doesn't support his declaration. So now he he either 0:40:30.260 --> 0:40:33.180 has to pretend he never made it. And unfortunately or fortunately, 0:40:33.180 --> 0:40:35.899 in the world in which we live, everything is out 0:40:35.900 --> 0:40:37.900 there on the internet. And once it's there, it doesn't 0:40:37.900 --> 0:40:40.420 have a shelf life. There's no carbon dating, it's there forevermore. 0:40:40.739 --> 0:40:43.420 So he cannot deny that he made this observation, that 0:40:43.420 --> 0:40:45.700 he posited this challenge, and the challenge didn't come back 0:40:45.700 --> 0:40:47.939 the way he wanted it to. So to the best 0:40:47.940 --> 0:40:49.899 of your knowledge, in reading his papers and doing his 0:40:49.900 --> 0:40:52.580 research as he merely sidestepped the outcome. 0:40:54.260 --> 0:40:57.140 I mean, I have never seen Dawkins circle back around 0:40:57.140 --> 0:40:59.100 to this particular topic. We were hoping that he might 0:40:59.100 --> 0:41:01.939 respond to my article, uh, which thank you for linking 0:41:02.060 --> 0:41:05.900 to that. It's titled, uh, Intelligent Design Passes the Dawkins 0:41:05.900 --> 0:41:08.020 Test because we think it does. And we asked Richard 0:41:08.020 --> 0:41:09.900 Dawkins at the end, you know, well, how are you 0:41:09.900 --> 0:41:11.940 going to respond to this? Will you admit that your 0:41:11.940 --> 0:41:15.140 prediction has failed for evolution but succeeded for intelligent design? 0:41:15.180 --> 0:41:17.140 Or will you say that maybe this prediction was not 0:41:17.140 --> 0:41:19.380 a good way of testing between evolution and ID, I 0:41:19.380 --> 0:41:21.700 don't know. We were hoping that he would respond. He 0:41:21.700 --> 0:41:24.620 has not responded yet. Um, I mean, Dawkins is now 0:41:24.660 --> 0:41:27.500 I think he's in his, uh, early 80s, possibly like 0:41:27.500 --> 0:41:30.299 around 82 years old or so. So I'm not sure 0:41:30.300 --> 0:41:32.460 if he's engaged with the science. And this is really 0:41:32.500 --> 0:41:35.290 an issue that we've seen in the last 10 or 0:41:35.290 --> 0:41:38.819 15 years where we're finding all of these, these evolutionary 0:41:38.820 --> 0:41:41.379 trees that are conflicting with each other. Um, I'm not 0:41:41.380 --> 0:41:44.500 sure how closely Dawkins follows the literature, but as you said, 0:41:44.500 --> 0:41:46.980 it was 2009 that he wrote his book, The Greatest 0:41:46.980 --> 0:41:49.259 Show on Earth, and that book was supposed to lay 0:41:49.260 --> 0:41:52.259 out the best evidence for evolution that Dawkins knew about, 0:41:52.260 --> 0:41:54.419 and that was part of the place where he laid 0:41:54.420 --> 0:41:57.260 out this test. So, yeah, I don't know what Dawkins 0:41:57.260 --> 0:41:58.859 is going to say, Janet. All I can say is 0:41:58.860 --> 0:42:01.730 that this is what the evidence says and the evidence 0:42:01.730 --> 0:42:04.370 fulfils Dawkins prediction for intelligent design. 0:42:04.410 --> 0:42:07.330 Wow. So just as a sidebar story, because I have 0:42:07.330 --> 0:42:10.290 the luxury of picking your well-educated brains for a minute, 0:42:10.290 --> 0:42:12.250 Stephen Gould doesn't call it a tree of life anymore. 0:42:12.250 --> 0:42:14.489 He's referring to it as a bush. Is that an 0:42:14.489 --> 0:42:16.930 internal debate in the camp of the evolutionists? 0:42:17.890 --> 0:42:19.810 Yeah. So? So Stephen Jay Gould passed away a number 0:42:19.810 --> 0:42:22.730 of years ago, but certainly many scientists. And I think 0:42:22.730 --> 0:42:25.250 Gould would have been one of them, would have recognized 0:42:25.250 --> 0:42:27.850 that we don't have this nice, neat tree of life. 0:42:27.850 --> 0:42:29.969 You've heard we've heard people call it the bush of 0:42:29.969 --> 0:42:32.370 life or the network of life or the tangled thicket 0:42:32.370 --> 0:42:34.730 of life. Um, I don't have the ability to put 0:42:34.730 --> 0:42:37.410 a picture up on a on a radio show audio show, 0:42:37.410 --> 0:42:40.049 but you can see some of the diagrams in scientific papers, 0:42:40.050 --> 0:42:42.170 and they don't look like a tree. They look like 0:42:42.170 --> 0:42:45.290 a tangled thicket. And what this means, basically, is that 0:42:45.290 --> 0:42:49.890 similarity is popping up between living organisms and places, that 0:42:49.890 --> 0:42:52.890 it was not predicted by common ancestry. I mean, that's 0:42:52.890 --> 0:42:55.569 exactly what it means. So this idea that you can 0:42:55.570 --> 0:42:59.799 explain the distribution of traits and genes and body parts 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:04.200 between different organisms. By appealing to their common ancestry, I 0:43:04.200 --> 0:43:07.280 think that a very large percentage of scientists today recognize 0:43:07.280 --> 0:43:09.600 that you can't do that, okay, that common ancestry is 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:12.040 not explaining the data very well. Now, they have lots 0:43:12.040 --> 0:43:15.200 of other ways of trying to explain away the data 0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:19.440 without losing common ancestry. Um, we call these epicycles. Like 0:43:19.440 --> 0:43:21.920 in the geocentric model of the solar system. You would 0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:24.880 appeal to these epicycles to explain why, you know, you 0:43:24.880 --> 0:43:26.640 could still keep the earth at the center of the 0:43:26.640 --> 0:43:29.040 solar system. But I think what this shows is that 0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:32.640 common ancestry and Darwinian evolution are a theory in crisis, 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:34.839 and we ought to be seriously questioning whether or not 0:43:34.840 --> 0:43:38.040 they're the best explanations for biology that we have today. 0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:40.400 Wow, what a brilliant answer. One last question, and it 0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:43.080 takes us full circle. How do you encourage your fellow 0:43:43.080 --> 0:43:47.560 academicians who subscribe to an intelligent design worldview on the 0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:50.719 origin of species, knowing it might cost them their job 0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:53.200 to mitigate the heckler's veto? What do you tell them 0:43:53.200 --> 0:43:53.640 to do? 0:43:54.440 --> 0:43:56.399 Well, in a couple of seconds. Uh, keep in touch 0:43:56.400 --> 0:44:00.040 with Discovery Institute. You can go to discovery.org or evolution. 0:44:00.280 --> 0:44:02.719 Org and if you do find yourself in trouble, reach 0:44:02.719 --> 0:44:05.920 out to us. We've helped many scientists to overcome and 0:44:05.920 --> 0:44:08.799 face these discrimination cases, and there's a lot of great 0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:11.080 people who have been through this. You're not alone. Know 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:12.839 that you're not crazy if you think that people are 0:44:12.840 --> 0:44:15.920 discriminating against you. It's happened many times. You're among good company. 0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:17.600 Reach out to us. We'd be happy to help you. 0:44:18.040 --> 0:44:20.520 And I'm telling you, Casey is an absolute treasure in 0:44:20.520 --> 0:44:24.640 this particular area. Academic freedom. Right? The ability to investigate 0:44:24.640 --> 0:44:27.319 and see where the evidence leads. Casey also said that 0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:29.600 I do have a link to his article, Intelligent Design 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:33.240 Passes the Dawkins Test. It's right there on our information page. 0:44:33.239 --> 0:44:35.239 Read it and then pass it on to a friend 0:44:35.280 --> 0:44:37.160 who subscribes to the idea of the Tree of Life 0:44:37.160 --> 0:44:40.640 and the evolutionist idea, and just talk about how, in fact, 0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:43.279 the evidence doesn't necessarily point that way and get to 0:44:43.320 --> 0:44:48.560 know the Discovery Institute, these brilliant learned people winsomely entering 0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:50.719 into the halls of academia and I think leaving a 0:44:50.719 --> 0:44:54.200 profound impact. Thank you to Doctor Casey Luskin and new friends. 0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:55.120 We'll see you next time.