1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 S1: Hi friends. Thanks so much for downloading this podcast, and 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,000 S1: I hope truly that you will hear something that will encourage, edify, equip, 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,360 S1: and enlighten you to get out there and influence and 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,040 S1: occupy until he comes. And on that note, may I 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,080 S1: take just a few moments here to describe this month's 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,920 S1: truth tool? It's by pastor Jack Hibbs. He's written the 7 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,040 S1: book called Called to Take a Bold Stand. I absolutely 8 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,520 S1: love this book because it reminds us that in Christ 9 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,480 S1: all things pass away. All things become new, that we 10 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,240 S1: are standing for his truth, that we have a new nature. 11 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,080 S1: Because of him, we should be living boldly. But far 12 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,120 S1: too often we retreat out of fear from cultural blowback. 13 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,600 S1: So I want to encourage all of us to just 14 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,800 S1: stand up for Christ, to be unashamed of who we 15 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,120 S1: are in him, and to go into a culture that's 16 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,600 S1: telling us in no uncertain terms. They're lost and they're hurting. 17 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,760 S1: So if you'd like a copy of Pastor Hibbs new 18 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,400 S1: book called Call to Take a Bold Stand, just give 19 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,720 S1: a gift of any amount by calling eight, seven, seven. 20 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,680 S1: Janet 58. We are listener supported radio, and this is 21 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,640 S1: my way of saying thank you. So that number again 22 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,310 S1: is 877 Janet 58. Or you can go online in 23 00:00:59,350 --> 00:01:02,110 S1: the market with Janet dot o r g. Go to 24 00:01:02,150 --> 00:01:04,190 S1: the bottom of the page. There's the cover of Pastor 25 00:01:04,190 --> 00:01:06,670 S1: Jack's book. Click it on, give a gift and you'll 26 00:01:06,670 --> 00:01:08,190 S1: be good to go. And we'll send you a copy 27 00:01:08,190 --> 00:01:10,030 S1: as a way of saying thank you. Don't forget, you 28 00:01:10,030 --> 00:01:12,550 S1: can also become a partial partner. Those are people who 29 00:01:12,550 --> 00:01:15,190 S1: give every single month at a level of their own choosing. 30 00:01:15,230 --> 00:01:17,190 S1: My way of saying thank you to the partial partners 31 00:01:17,190 --> 00:01:18,750 S1: is to make sure you get a copy of each 32 00:01:18,790 --> 00:01:21,630 S1: month's truth tool, and you get our weekly newsletter, which 33 00:01:21,670 --> 00:01:24,270 S1: includes some of my writing and an audio piece only 34 00:01:24,270 --> 00:01:26,789 S1: for my partial partners. So whether it's a one time 35 00:01:26,790 --> 00:01:28,630 S1: gift or you want to be an ongoing giver and 36 00:01:28,630 --> 00:01:30,910 S1: become a partial partner, that's your call. But I want 37 00:01:30,950 --> 00:01:34,070 S1: to thank you in advance. Eight seven, seven Janet 58. 38 00:01:34,069 --> 00:01:37,310 S1: Or online at In the Market with Janet Parshall. Now 39 00:01:37,310 --> 00:01:46,350 S1: please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends, this is Janet Partial. 40 00:01:46,350 --> 00:01:48,430 S1: Thanks so much for choosing to spend the next hour 41 00:01:48,430 --> 00:01:51,630 S1: with us. Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines 42 00:01:51,630 --> 00:01:53,750 S1: are not open. But thanks so much for being with 43 00:01:53,750 --> 00:01:55,390 S1: us and enjoy the broadcast. 44 00:01:55,830 --> 00:01:57,420 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're were watching. 45 00:01:57,740 --> 00:01:59,900 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 46 00:01:59,940 --> 00:02:02,140 S4: So Americans worshipping government over God. 47 00:02:02,460 --> 00:02:04,940 S5: Extremely rare safety move by a major. 48 00:02:04,980 --> 00:02:08,380 S6: 17 years. The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated a. 49 00:02:10,820 --> 00:02:11,260 S5: Truce. 50 00:02:25,180 --> 00:02:28,020 S7: Are you familiar at all with a little thing called socialism? 51 00:02:28,260 --> 00:02:28,780 S5: Yes. 52 00:02:28,820 --> 00:02:29,820 S7: What do you think about it? 53 00:02:29,860 --> 00:02:30,739 S8: I love it. 54 00:02:30,780 --> 00:02:32,020 S7: I love social. What do you love about it? 55 00:02:32,060 --> 00:02:33,780 S8: I like to socialize with everybody. 56 00:02:33,820 --> 00:02:35,660 S7: No. Not socialize. Socialism. 57 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:37,820 S8: I'm not really sure what socialism actually is. 58 00:02:37,860 --> 00:02:41,820 S7: So socialism is basically an economic system where everybody's equal. 59 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:43,060 S7: There's no rich and there's no poor. 60 00:02:43,100 --> 00:02:44,220 S8: Oh no, no, I get it. It's kind of like 61 00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:45,220 S8: what Cuba does. 62 00:02:45,220 --> 00:02:47,980 S9: I'm not quite so clear on the exact definition of socialism, 63 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:50,019 S9: but I think it's important that it isn't just every 64 00:02:50,020 --> 00:02:50,860 S9: man for himself. 65 00:02:51,139 --> 00:02:55,260 S10: I don't know, because socialism has worked in some places. 66 00:02:55,570 --> 00:02:55,730 S7: And. 67 00:02:55,730 --> 00:02:56,210 S10: Other places. 68 00:02:56,210 --> 00:02:57,770 S7: I'm still trying to find where socialism work. 69 00:02:57,810 --> 00:02:58,530 S10: I don't know either. 70 00:02:58,570 --> 00:03:00,889 S7: Do you know the difference between a Democrat and a socialist? 71 00:03:01,250 --> 00:03:02,130 S11: Honestly, no. 72 00:03:02,410 --> 00:03:04,130 S7: How do you feel about socialism, sir? 73 00:03:04,330 --> 00:03:06,250 S12: It's great. I just got back from a year. Four 74 00:03:06,250 --> 00:03:09,610 S12: weeks in Europe. Free health care, good schools. It's wonderful. 75 00:03:09,850 --> 00:03:11,570 S7: Free. Free everything. Do you think that works? 76 00:03:11,610 --> 00:03:12,210 S12: You have to pay for it. 77 00:03:12,250 --> 00:03:14,930 S7: Recent poll just came out saying that Democrats now view 78 00:03:14,930 --> 00:03:19,169 S7: socialism more favorably than they view capitalism. What are your thoughts? 79 00:03:19,850 --> 00:03:23,690 S13: Uh, it doesn't make any sense. Socialism is ridiculous. 80 00:03:23,690 --> 00:03:24,450 S14: I'm for it. 81 00:03:24,450 --> 00:03:25,450 S7: You're for socialism. 82 00:03:25,450 --> 00:03:26,250 S14: I am for it. 83 00:03:26,290 --> 00:03:26,650 S7: Why? 84 00:03:27,090 --> 00:03:30,490 S14: Because I think everybody should have a fair opportunity for 85 00:03:30,490 --> 00:03:33,650 S14: health care. And, um. Yeah. 86 00:03:33,970 --> 00:03:35,090 S7: Does fair mean free? 87 00:03:35,770 --> 00:03:37,570 S14: Fair means free. 88 00:03:37,610 --> 00:03:39,890 S7: Do you hear any of your friends talking about socialism? Nope. 89 00:03:39,890 --> 00:03:44,369 S7: There are some Democrats, mostly who believe socialism should replace capitalism. 90 00:03:44,370 --> 00:03:45,690 S7: Do you think that's ever going to happen? 91 00:03:46,210 --> 00:03:48,690 S15: Uh, personally, I do not think that's ever going to happen. 92 00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:52,450 S15: I think capitalism is fantastic. It gives every American an 93 00:03:52,450 --> 00:03:55,680 S15: opportunity to earn an income each individually. 94 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:57,480 S7: Well, thank you so much. Have a great day. Good 95 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:57,960 S7: to see you. 96 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,880 S1: And that sets the stage perfectly for our conversation this hour. 97 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,240 S1: Welcome to In the Market with Janet Partial. That was 98 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,960 S1: Toni Lehrer and she did a great assessment of man 99 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,600 S1: on the street. But it does raise a very troublesome question. 100 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,720 S1: And that is it's a pernicious idea. And Tony's right. 101 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,800 S1: Where in the world is it working? So why have 102 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,240 S1: we seen a resurgence in its popularity, particularly among a 103 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,200 S1: particular demographic in this country? You heard one person say 104 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:28,240 S1: declaratively fair equals free, free. Well, I'm coming to you 105 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,360 S1: from the nation's capital, and I'm here to tell you 106 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,679 S1: that there's nothing free. You send your money to Washington, D.C. 107 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,720 S1: they turn around and they spend it and send you 108 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,720 S1: the bill. That's the way it works. So why are 109 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,159 S1: we listening to the Pied Piper's tune? What it is? 110 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,400 S1: What is it about the siren's song that is driving 111 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,440 S1: us to the shore? What is it about the socialist temptation? 112 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,080 S1: That's our conversation this hour. Ian Murray is with us. 113 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,630 S1: He directs the center for Economic Freedom at the Competitive 114 00:04:53,630 --> 00:04:56,150 S1: Enterprise Institute here in the nation's capital, where he's the 115 00:04:56,150 --> 00:04:58,830 S1: VP for strategy and a senior fellow. For the past 116 00:04:58,830 --> 00:05:01,510 S1: 15 years, he has written and lectured extensively on free 117 00:05:01,510 --> 00:05:04,510 S1: markets and the environment. He's a former civil servant in 118 00:05:04,510 --> 00:05:07,230 S1: the UK, where he helped to privatize the railroad industry. 119 00:05:07,270 --> 00:05:10,310 S1: He's lived here in the United States since 1997, but 120 00:05:10,310 --> 00:05:13,110 S1: he remains a British citizen. He holds an MBA from 121 00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:15,750 S1: the University of London and an Ma from the University 122 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:19,550 S1: of Oxford, and he's written an unbelievably timely book called 123 00:05:19,550 --> 00:05:23,110 S1: Just What We Said The Socialist Temptation, in the Warmest 124 00:05:23,110 --> 00:05:25,070 S1: of Welcomes. I want to thank you not just for 125 00:05:25,070 --> 00:05:26,870 S1: the gift of one hour of your time. I can't 126 00:05:26,870 --> 00:05:29,030 S1: ever replace that. But I want to thank you for 127 00:05:29,029 --> 00:05:31,589 S1: taking the brilliance that you have about economics and breaking 128 00:05:31,589 --> 00:05:35,110 S1: this down in user friendly fashion, and then really signing 129 00:05:35,110 --> 00:05:36,990 S1: a warning here that we need to sit up and 130 00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:39,830 S1: pay attention. So let me start with the philosophical before 131 00:05:39,830 --> 00:05:42,310 S1: we dig down into your book. And that is why 132 00:05:42,350 --> 00:05:47,110 S1: are we seeing a resurgence, number one. Number two, what 133 00:05:47,110 --> 00:05:51,460 S1: is it about the addictive aspect of this ideology that 134 00:05:51,460 --> 00:05:54,300 S1: is drawing some people to think that this really would 135 00:05:54,300 --> 00:05:55,580 S1: be a great way to live. 136 00:05:55,900 --> 00:05:59,140 S16: Well, I think that you've really hit the nail on 137 00:05:59,140 --> 00:06:03,140 S16: the head with those two questions. I think that what 138 00:06:03,140 --> 00:06:06,620 S16: we've seen is essentially a two stage process which has 139 00:06:06,660 --> 00:06:11,779 S16: enabled this revival of socialism. The first stage is it's 140 00:06:11,779 --> 00:06:16,380 S16: an identifiable phenomenon that you see every time a socialist 141 00:06:16,380 --> 00:06:20,740 S16: state is set up. Everybody says, hurrah, this is it, 142 00:06:21,020 --> 00:06:23,900 S16: the new dawn. The utopia is here. It's the international 143 00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:28,540 S16: brotherhood of man. It's finally here. We have the socialist state. 144 00:06:28,820 --> 00:06:32,180 S16: And then a few years later, as the inherent contradictions 145 00:06:32,180 --> 00:06:37,420 S16: of socialism start to start to cause problems, the wheels 146 00:06:37,420 --> 00:06:40,020 S16: start to come off the economy. And then they turn 147 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:42,460 S16: around and say, well, this can't be because socialist policies 148 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:47,780 S16: are bad. The socialist policies are fine. This must be 149 00:06:47,890 --> 00:06:52,370 S16: because of saboteurs or wreckers or foreign intervention, or economic 150 00:06:52,370 --> 00:06:55,450 S16: sanctions or the CIA or something like that. That's actually 151 00:06:55,450 --> 00:06:58,290 S16: where we are with Venezuela at the moment. Any socialist 152 00:06:58,290 --> 00:07:02,210 S16: worth their salt is turning around and saying that Venezuela 153 00:07:02,210 --> 00:07:04,610 S16: would be just fine were it not for the sanctions 154 00:07:04,610 --> 00:07:10,450 S16: and the CIA. And then finally, finally, when everything, everything's 155 00:07:10,490 --> 00:07:13,770 S16: gone to hell in a handbasket, uh, you get to 156 00:07:13,810 --> 00:07:16,810 S16: the stage where people say, okay, it's failed, but that's 157 00:07:16,810 --> 00:07:20,570 S16: because it wasn't real socialism. This was never real socialism 158 00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:23,650 S16: at all. Often these are exactly the same people who 159 00:07:24,170 --> 00:07:27,450 S16: just 20 years earlier were saying, yes, this is real 160 00:07:27,450 --> 00:07:32,050 S16: socialism at last. And so socialism always starts with a 161 00:07:32,050 --> 00:07:37,850 S16: blank slate, because the last failure can never actually be 162 00:07:37,890 --> 00:07:40,690 S16: allowed to be defined as real socialism. 163 00:07:41,210 --> 00:07:43,450 S1: MM. That is a superb answer. And that, by the way, 164 00:07:43,450 --> 00:07:45,650 S1: is very reflective of how you write in your book. 165 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:47,720 S1: You do a great job of breaking down the terms. 166 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,440 S1: So let me start with what you just said is 167 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,160 S1: that the defenders of socialism will say in its purest form, 168 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,760 S1: it's wonderful. It's the other guy that messes it up. 169 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,720 S1: So you start by breaking down some of the definitions. 170 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,120 S1: And for a lot of people, and you're talking to 171 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,080 S1: folks all across the country. Ian, what's the difference? Or 172 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,240 S1: is there a difference between Marxism and socialism and democratic 173 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,880 S1: socialism and social democracy? 174 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,080 S16: Well, uh, the this is a very important question, and 175 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,960 S16: that's one of the reasons why I try to to 176 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,760 S16: cover it in the socialist temptation. It's because very often 177 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,280 S16: when you talk to a socialist, you don't know what 178 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,400 S16: form of socialism they're talking about. They will switch between 179 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,240 S16: one or the other. But I've identified a few basic forms. 180 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,600 S16: The first is the classical, uh, socialism of Karl Marx. 181 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,520 S16: It's what he talks about in the Communist Manifesto. It's 182 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,870 S16: essentially what happened in the Soviet Union and and quite 183 00:08:45,870 --> 00:08:51,949 S16: a few other places. It's um, the control of the 184 00:08:51,950 --> 00:08:56,950 S16: economy by the people after a revolution. So there's, there's 185 00:08:56,990 --> 00:09:00,390 S16: a revolution. The old order is swept away and a 186 00:09:00,470 --> 00:09:04,390 S16: new order, new order is set up where, uh, where, uh, 187 00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:09,550 S16: all industry is owned by the people. And, uh, rather 188 00:09:09,550 --> 00:09:14,229 S16: than by, uh, run by their, uh, their direct appointees. 189 00:09:14,429 --> 00:09:16,230 S16: But other forms of socialism are different. 190 00:09:16,510 --> 00:09:19,230 S1: Yes. Wonderful. Let me in fact, this is a perfect 191 00:09:19,230 --> 00:09:21,070 S1: place to take a break. Let me come back if 192 00:09:21,070 --> 00:09:22,710 S1: I can, Ian, and ask you to break down those 193 00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:25,309 S1: other forms just a little bit. You cover so much 194 00:09:25,309 --> 00:09:27,790 S1: of the cultural impact and the history. It is an 195 00:09:27,830 --> 00:09:31,230 S1: absolutely superb book. It's called The Socialist Temptation. Ian Murray 196 00:09:31,230 --> 00:09:33,230 S1: is the author and he's with us for the entire hour. 197 00:09:33,230 --> 00:09:44,020 S1: We're just getting started. More after this. As culture continues 198 00:09:44,020 --> 00:09:46,420 S1: to stumble into darkness, it's easy to lose heart and 199 00:09:46,420 --> 00:09:48,699 S1: grow weary in your faith. And that's why I've chosen 200 00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:51,140 S1: Called to Take a bold stand by pastor Jack Hibbs 201 00:09:51,140 --> 00:09:53,740 S1: as this month's truth tool. Learn how to represent Christ 202 00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:56,380 S1: courageously in a hurting world. As for your copy of 203 00:09:56,420 --> 00:09:58,059 S1: call to take a bold stand when you give a 204 00:09:58,100 --> 00:10:00,980 S1: gift of any amount to in the market, call 877. 205 00:10:00,980 --> 00:10:04,420 S1: Janet 58. That's 877. Janet 58. Or go to in 206 00:10:04,460 --> 00:10:06,540 S1: the market with Janet dot o r g. 207 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:12,459 S17: The president spent a lot of time on using the 208 00:10:12,460 --> 00:10:18,940 S17: s word socialism and socialist. It was a not too subtle. Um, 209 00:10:18,940 --> 00:10:21,579 S17: I don't know whether it's a dig or a enhancement. 210 00:10:21,580 --> 00:10:22,580 S17: I'll let you decide. 211 00:10:22,620 --> 00:10:23,220 S18: I was flattered. 212 00:10:23,260 --> 00:10:27,059 S17: Okay. Fair enough. Um. You have said you are a 213 00:10:27,059 --> 00:10:31,220 S17: democratic socialist. Can you be a democratic socialist and a capitalist? 214 00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:34,340 S19: Well, I think it depends on your interpretation. So there 215 00:10:34,380 --> 00:10:37,579 S19: are some democratic socialists that would say absolutely not. There 216 00:10:37,620 --> 00:10:40,460 S19: are other people that are democratic socialists that would say, 217 00:10:40,460 --> 00:10:41,569 S19: I think it's possible. 218 00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:42,130 S18: What are you. 219 00:10:42,170 --> 00:10:44,010 S19: I think it's possible, I think. 220 00:10:44,050 --> 00:10:46,170 S17: Do you say to yourself, I'm a capitalist? 221 00:10:46,170 --> 00:10:49,410 S19: But I don't say that. You know, if anything, I 222 00:10:49,410 --> 00:10:54,969 S19: would say I'm. I believe in in a democratic economy. But. 223 00:10:55,530 --> 00:10:55,929 S18: Gotcha. 224 00:10:55,970 --> 00:10:57,809 S19: But the but is there. 225 00:10:58,130 --> 00:10:58,530 S18: So. 226 00:10:58,929 --> 00:11:01,770 S19: Um, so in some ways, whether it's you're coming from, say, 227 00:11:01,809 --> 00:11:05,050 S19: Elizabeth Warren's perspective where she says, you know, she says 228 00:11:05,050 --> 00:11:08,810 S19: things like, I'm a capitalist, but we need to have 229 00:11:08,809 --> 00:11:11,970 S19: hard rules for the game. 230 00:11:12,010 --> 00:11:12,770 S18: What does the private. 231 00:11:12,770 --> 00:11:14,970 S17: Sector do better than you know that the private sector. 232 00:11:15,210 --> 00:11:17,530 S17: Government should stay out of X because private sector does 233 00:11:17,530 --> 00:11:18,010 S17: that better. 234 00:11:18,050 --> 00:11:19,970 S19: Yeah, I think there's a lot of things. There's a 235 00:11:19,970 --> 00:11:23,130 S19: lot of consumer goods where the private sector works. And 236 00:11:23,130 --> 00:11:27,170 S19: by the way, I think it's important to delineate that 237 00:11:27,170 --> 00:11:30,209 S19: just because you're in the private sector doesn't you can 238 00:11:30,210 --> 00:11:33,250 S19: be in the private sector and be a democratically socialist 239 00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:37,370 S19: business worker. Cooperatives are a perfect example of that. Um, 240 00:11:37,530 --> 00:11:41,440 S19: it's not about government takeover. It's about how much do 241 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,080 S19: workers have a say in your business? Do you have 242 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,800 S19: workers on the board? Do workers enjoy a decent amount 243 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,720 S19: of the wealth that they are creating? Or is the 244 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,720 S19: majority of these profits going to shareholders while you're paying 245 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,400 S19: a worker $15 an hour to live in a New 246 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,640 S19: York City apartment? And so that to me is the difference. 247 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,840 S19: It's not that public. The public sector is democratically socialist 248 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,480 S19: and the private sector is not. It's really about a 249 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,440 S19: more nuanced understanding of how our economy should work. 250 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,600 S1: Oh, there's so much in that clip. Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez 251 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,720 S1: doing one of the morning talk shows and all of 252 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,000 S1: that language is addressed, by the way, in Ian Murray's 253 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,840 S1: fabulous new book called The Socialist Temptation, he directs the 254 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,320 S1: center for Economic Freedom at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. Ian, 255 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,439 S1: if I may, because so much of what she said 256 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,920 S1: is addressed directly in your book, let me unpack some 257 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,000 S1: of this. First of all. He asked her this important 258 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,710 S1: question can you be a capitalist and a socialist at 259 00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:41,030 S1: the same time? I'd love your answer to that question. 260 00:12:41,230 --> 00:12:48,069 S16: I think that it's an inherent contradiction. Socialism is about 261 00:12:49,950 --> 00:12:55,150 S16: democratic control of this is what they say. You heard 262 00:12:55,150 --> 00:13:00,990 S16: it just then. It's about democratic control of of certain things. Um. 263 00:13:03,350 --> 00:13:06,510 S16: There are there are two ways that you can do this. 264 00:13:07,309 --> 00:13:10,350 S16: The first is the way that was tried in a 265 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:14,670 S16: lot of European states, uh, starting in the 1930s and 40s, 266 00:13:14,670 --> 00:13:21,710 S16: especially in the 1940s, where they nationalized, uh, what they 267 00:13:21,710 --> 00:13:25,390 S16: call the commanding heights of the economy, where they ensured 268 00:13:25,390 --> 00:13:30,270 S16: that there was workers control of the means of production, distribution, 269 00:13:30,270 --> 00:13:35,940 S16: and exchange. So not everything was nationalized, but most, uh, 270 00:13:36,700 --> 00:13:43,540 S16: the most important things, uh, were, uh, this doesn't work because, uh, the, 271 00:13:44,420 --> 00:13:49,100 S16: the political appointees who are put in charge in charge 272 00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:52,500 S16: of this, uh, just don't have the information they need 273 00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:58,819 S16: to be able to, to run the, the industry successfully because, uh, 274 00:13:59,059 --> 00:14:04,860 S16: there are political considerations which, uh, uh, reduce the impact 275 00:14:04,860 --> 00:14:09,540 S16: of the price signal and other things. All, all good, 276 00:14:09,820 --> 00:14:14,140 S16: all economic, uh, reasons that a lot of economists have 277 00:14:14,580 --> 00:14:17,580 S16: gone into as to why that that doesn't work. So 278 00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:21,100 S16: what people like AOC are saying is, no, no, we 279 00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:22,940 S16: know that doesn't work. We're not we're not going to 280 00:14:22,980 --> 00:14:25,260 S16: try and do that, but we're going to try and 281 00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:30,660 S16: do it another way, uh, exert democratic control through regulation. 282 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:37,450 S16: So rather than having, um, people, uh, in, uh, directly, uh, 283 00:14:37,690 --> 00:14:43,890 S16: appointed by, uh, by politicians to directly run the, uh, the, 284 00:14:43,890 --> 00:14:49,090 S16: the industry, uh, using the, uh, the, the taxpayer to 285 00:14:49,130 --> 00:14:53,490 S16: subsidize and so on when necessary. We'll have, uh, regulators 286 00:14:53,490 --> 00:14:58,050 S16: who ensure that, uh, that, uh, that the private industry, uh, 287 00:14:58,370 --> 00:15:02,530 S16: works to the benefit of the public. But it's the 288 00:15:02,530 --> 00:15:07,490 S16: same problem that those regulators just don't have the information 289 00:15:07,490 --> 00:15:10,290 S16: that they need, nor can they have the information that 290 00:15:10,290 --> 00:15:14,610 S16: they need in order to, to, to make sure that, 291 00:15:14,610 --> 00:15:18,650 S16: that the industry runs the way it, the way it 292 00:15:18,650 --> 00:15:22,330 S16: needs to. So in the end, the we'll, as I said, 293 00:15:22,370 --> 00:15:24,610 S16: this always happens. The wheels start to come off the 294 00:15:24,610 --> 00:15:30,850 S16: economy and, uh, and political patches and fixes are tried. Uh, 295 00:15:31,170 --> 00:15:34,600 S16: they try to put those in place and they never work. 296 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,800 S16: And in the end, the economy collapses. 297 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,440 S1: Yes, absolutely. She used a term. You address it in 298 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,280 S1: the book, and I think it's important for our friends 299 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:48,200 S1: listening to understand what it means. What is a democratic socialist. 300 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:54,840 S16: A democratic socialist? It's, it's, uh, its origins were in, uh, 301 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:01,120 S16: in comparison to, uh, the revolutionary socialist. So the revolutionary socialist, uh, 302 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:06,920 S16: you know, leaves power, uh, by, by actual violent, uh, 303 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:12,600 S16: armed revolution, whereas the democratic socialist, uh, achieves power through 304 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,880 S16: the electoral process and then uses the political process, uh, 305 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,440 S16: to reinforce, uh, all the, all the decisions that, uh, 306 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,720 S16: that are made in, in the revolutionary case, uh, by, 307 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,470 S16: by the revolutionary council. Uh, they use the political process. 308 00:16:31,470 --> 00:16:34,590 S16: So it's an attempt at a at a non-violent and 309 00:16:34,590 --> 00:16:36,990 S16: much less threatening form of socialism. 310 00:16:37,310 --> 00:16:39,230 S1: Ian Murray is with us. He is the author of 311 00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:41,630 S1: the new book The Socialist Temptation. And what is so 312 00:16:41,630 --> 00:16:44,070 S1: superb about this book is not only does it break 313 00:16:44,070 --> 00:16:45,990 S1: down the terms, it takes a look at the history 314 00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:49,710 S1: of socialism, and then it looks at the tendril outreaches 315 00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:52,870 S1: of infection in various aspects of our culture. I found 316 00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:55,870 S1: particularly important in his book was the impact on speech 317 00:16:55,870 --> 00:16:59,030 S1: and religious liberty as well. When we come back, is 318 00:16:59,030 --> 00:17:01,630 S1: there a place where socialism is working? And what about 319 00:17:01,630 --> 00:17:04,270 S1: the numbers? In fact, there's an entire chapter in Ian's 320 00:17:04,270 --> 00:17:07,790 S1: book entitled The Socialist Death Toll. You want history? We'll 321 00:17:07,790 --> 00:17:09,430 S1: give you a little bit when we get back. Ian 322 00:17:09,470 --> 00:17:12,870 S1: Murray is with us again, directing the center for Economic 323 00:17:12,869 --> 00:17:15,550 S1: Freedom at the Competitive Enterprise Institute and the author of 324 00:17:15,550 --> 00:17:19,270 S1: the brand new, timely and important book, The Socialist Temptation 325 00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:20,110 S1: back after this. 326 00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:38,660 S20: Socialism is on the rise. Not only are a growing 327 00:17:38,660 --> 00:17:41,580 S20: number of young people sympathetic to the idea, but many 328 00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:45,220 S20: politicians are actively pushing policies to advance it. But the 329 00:17:45,220 --> 00:17:48,899 S20: question many Americans are asking is what is socialism and 330 00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:52,300 S20: how will it impact me? At the base level, socialism 331 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:56,220 S20: simply means strict government control over the economy. Think government 332 00:17:56,220 --> 00:18:00,940 S20: run health care, government mandated wage requirements, and more restrictions 333 00:18:00,940 --> 00:18:04,340 S20: and regulations on private businesses? Oh yeah. One more thing. 334 00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:07,419 S20: All this government control also means a lot more taxes 335 00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:10,900 S20: to pay for it. Although socialism and its programs are 336 00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:14,180 S20: pursued in the name of promoting equality, the outcome is 337 00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:18,500 S20: devastating for everyone. It touches socialism, sky high taxes, poor 338 00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:23,060 S20: health care, choice restrictions, supply shortages, lackluster innovation, and more. 339 00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:28,129 S20: Government rules will shackle individual freedom. Socialism dismantles the very 340 00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:31,210 S20: mechanisms of our current free market system that promotes progress 341 00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:37,369 S20: and economic advancement, competition and individual freedom. Unfortunately, we are 342 00:18:37,369 --> 00:18:40,409 S20: seeing this movie starring socialism play out in front of 343 00:18:40,410 --> 00:18:43,929 S20: our eyes. Venezuela was once one of the most prosperous 344 00:18:43,930 --> 00:18:47,370 S20: countries in South America, but years of socialism has left 345 00:18:47,369 --> 00:18:50,810 S20: it a shadow of its former self. People are starving, 346 00:18:51,369 --> 00:18:54,850 S20: infrastructure is crumbling, the currency is collapsing, and the rule 347 00:18:54,850 --> 00:18:59,850 S20: of law is dissolving. In short, socialism takes. It takes 348 00:18:59,850 --> 00:19:06,530 S20: entrepreneurial opportunities, takes better standards of living, takes upward mobility, 349 00:19:07,130 --> 00:19:12,850 S20: takes innovation and takes economic stability. On the flip side, 350 00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:16,770 S20: free enterprise and capitalism does just the opposite. It creates, 351 00:19:17,410 --> 00:19:22,930 S20: creates jobs, creates wealth, creates higher wages, creates economic growth, 352 00:19:22,930 --> 00:19:26,679 S20: and creates the opportunity to achieve the American Dream. The 353 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,240 S20: decision is yours, America. Do you want an economic system 354 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,840 S20: that takes or one that creates. The choice couldn't be 355 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:34,520 S20: more clear. 356 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,120 S1: Takes or creates. That's the issue in a nutshell. It's 357 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,840 S1: also why Ian Murray's brand new book is so timely 358 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,360 S1: and so important. There is an elixir out there that 359 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,760 S1: people are drinking that somehow has them believing that socialism 360 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,919 S1: is the answer to all of our ills. I challenge 361 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,000 S1: them to find some place on planet earth where that 362 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,119 S1: utopia exists. Ian's book is called The Socialist Temptation. Ian 363 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,320 S1: is the director of the center for Economic Freedom at 364 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,480 S1: the Competitive Enterprise Institute here in the nation's capital. Ian, 365 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:03,960 S1: let me go to that clip before I go to 366 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,760 S1: some of the history of socialism. The idea of taking 367 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,640 S1: or giving, and it really goes to something you say 368 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,800 S1: early on in the book, which is the subjugation of 369 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,719 S1: the individual to the collective. One of the joys of 370 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,800 S1: being an American for me, is the idea that we 371 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,719 S1: have freedom and liberty, inalienable rights that were given to 372 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,280 S1: us by God, not by government, and as such cannot 373 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,909 S1: be taken away among them, but not limited to. Are life, liberty, 374 00:20:24,910 --> 00:20:27,870 S1: and the pursuit of happiness. We breathe the concept of 375 00:20:27,869 --> 00:20:31,230 S1: liberty and freedom here in the United States. Why do 376 00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:34,590 S1: those proponents of socialism think that somehow they're going to 377 00:20:34,590 --> 00:20:36,429 S1: be able to take that truth and stand it on 378 00:20:36,430 --> 00:20:39,670 S1: its head? Because there is no there cannot be in 379 00:20:39,670 --> 00:20:43,630 S1: a socialistic system any individuality. Please talk to me about that. 380 00:20:43,790 --> 00:20:47,750 S16: Well, this this really gets to the the crux of 381 00:20:47,910 --> 00:20:53,909 S16: the matter. Uh, socialism is all about not the pursuit 382 00:20:53,910 --> 00:20:58,030 S16: of happiness, but the provision of happiness. There is a 383 00:20:58,190 --> 00:21:03,910 S16: belief that that some people will. And of course, this 384 00:21:03,910 --> 00:21:06,150 S16: does happen. Some people will fall by the wayside in 385 00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:10,990 S16: the pursuit of happiness. The the socialist system does not 386 00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:14,510 S16: want to allow that to happen. That's it's that's one 387 00:21:14,510 --> 00:21:18,710 S16: of its one of its appeal. It takes um equality 388 00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:22,260 S16: of outcome, a equality of opportunity, which is what the 389 00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:24,900 S16: pursuit of happiness is, and tries to turn it into 390 00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:31,820 S16: the equality of outcome or equity as, uh, as, as, as, uh, the, 391 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:35,659 S16: the expression that is often often used today, uh, but 392 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:41,300 S16: in so doing, uh, you have to level down rather 393 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:45,699 S16: than allowing people to, to level up. So, so in 394 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:49,620 S16: the end, you, if you want to ensure that equality 395 00:21:49,619 --> 00:21:53,500 S16: of outcome, you are going to have to give up, uh, 396 00:21:53,980 --> 00:21:58,300 S16: so much of what has, uh, what has made, uh, 397 00:21:59,619 --> 00:22:03,780 S16: the amazing country it is, I think, uh, that that 398 00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:08,500 S16: clip had exactly right. It, it, it substitutes taking for 399 00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:09,260 S16: the creation. 400 00:22:09,660 --> 00:22:12,500 S1: MM. Beautifully answered. Thank you. Ian again, if I look 401 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:15,260 S1: at the world present history, past history, is there anywhere 402 00:22:15,260 --> 00:22:17,739 S1: I can point to and say, ah, there. There's the 403 00:22:17,740 --> 00:22:21,080 S1: quintessential example of the efficacy of socialism. 404 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,840 S16: Well, if you talk to AOC, you've talked to Bernie 405 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:29,080 S16: Sanders and and force them to do this. Generally speaking, 406 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,879 S16: they point to somewhere like Sweden, uh, a northern European 407 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,480 S16: country with with a very high standard of living, uh, that, uh, that, 408 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,399 S16: that appears to be an example of socialism working. However, 409 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,680 S16: if you look at the history of Sweden, you will 410 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,719 S16: see that they did actually have democratic socialism up until 411 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,560 S16: the mid late 1970s. And then they realized it was 412 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:03,240 S16: going wrong. Uh. What happened was in the late 70s 413 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,320 S16: or 80s, was they elected just like, uh, Britain elected 414 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:11,720 S16: Margaret Thatcher, just like, uh, America elected Ronald Reagan to, to, uh, 415 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,950 S16: to reform the system that That was going wrong. Sweden 416 00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:20,670 S16: did the same thing, and in so doing, they got 417 00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:24,109 S16: rid of a lot of those features of democratic socialism 418 00:23:24,150 --> 00:23:30,830 S16: that I talked about earlier. They privatized a lot of 419 00:23:30,869 --> 00:23:34,350 S16: the a lot of their industry and social services. They 420 00:23:35,270 --> 00:23:43,790 S16: deregulated a lot more. They provided a. Real free market 421 00:23:43,790 --> 00:23:46,670 S16: capitalist incentive system of the sort that we were just 422 00:23:46,670 --> 00:23:51,790 S16: talking about so that companies like Ikea could become world leaders. 423 00:23:52,109 --> 00:23:58,149 S16: Spotify is the only big tech company outside the United States. 424 00:23:58,550 --> 00:24:04,510 S16: We got to Sweden became an open, free market society, 425 00:24:05,230 --> 00:24:09,470 S16: very different from the society that Bernie Sanders and AOC 426 00:24:09,630 --> 00:24:12,190 S16: say they want America to become. 427 00:24:13,390 --> 00:24:15,899 S1: Facts are stubborn things, as John Adams said, that's why 428 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:18,900 S1: we're talking about socialism. This is a very dangerous and 429 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:22,020 S1: pernicious idea that, in the end doesn't help. The individual 430 00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:24,219 S1: hurts the individual. When we come back, I want to 431 00:24:24,220 --> 00:24:27,500 S1: talk about its impact on free speech and religious freedom 432 00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:29,420 S1: as well. Ian Murray is with us. He's the author 433 00:24:29,420 --> 00:24:32,379 S1: of The Socialist Temptation. To learn More go to in 434 00:24:32,420 --> 00:24:44,100 S1: the market with janet.org. Friends, this is Janet Partial, and 435 00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:45,620 S1: I want to take a moment to remind you that 436 00:24:45,619 --> 00:24:48,740 S1: today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines aren't open, 437 00:24:48,740 --> 00:24:51,140 S1: but I sure do appreciate your spending the hour with us. 438 00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:53,580 S1: And thanks so much and enjoy the rest of the program. 439 00:24:58,940 --> 00:25:01,100 S1: The Bible says the Word of God illuminates our walk 440 00:25:01,140 --> 00:25:03,100 S1: through life. It's a lamp to our feet and a 441 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,420 S1: light to our path. Without it, we stumble and fall 442 00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:07,780 S1: in the market with Janet, partial is designed to help 443 00:25:07,780 --> 00:25:09,300 S1: you look at the headlines of the day through the 444 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:11,780 S1: lens of Scripture. When you become a partial partner, you 445 00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:14,810 S1: help to make this broadcast possible, and as a partial partner, 446 00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:17,609 S1: you'll receive exclusive benefits. So why not become a partial 447 00:25:17,609 --> 00:25:21,330 S1: partner today? Call 877 Janet 58 or go to in 448 00:25:21,369 --> 00:25:23,650 S1: the market with Janet. Partial dot o r g. 449 00:25:28,690 --> 00:25:31,730 S21: As far as socialism is concerned, that term has been 450 00:25:32,290 --> 00:25:37,530 S21: so evacuated of content over the last century that it's 451 00:25:37,890 --> 00:25:41,690 S21: hard even to use. I mean, the Soviet Union, for example, 452 00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:45,610 S21: was called a socialist society, and it was called that 453 00:25:45,609 --> 00:25:53,250 S21: by the two major propaganda. Operations in the world, the US, 454 00:25:53,290 --> 00:25:56,730 S21: the Western one and the Soviet one. They both called 455 00:25:56,730 --> 00:26:01,490 S21: it socialism for opposite reasons. The West called it socialism 456 00:26:01,490 --> 00:26:05,650 S21: in order to defame socialism by associating it with this 457 00:26:05,690 --> 00:26:10,090 S21: miserable tyranny, the Soviet Union called it socialism in order 458 00:26:10,090 --> 00:26:15,200 S21: to gain whatever to to benefit from the moral appeal 459 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,720 S21: that true socialism had among large parts of the general 460 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,320 S21: world population. But this was about as remote from socialism 461 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,560 S21: as you can imagine. I mean, the core notion of 462 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,800 S21: at least traditional socialism is that what you mentioned, that 463 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,040 S21: working people have to be in control of production, and 464 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,800 S21: communities have to be in control of their own lives 465 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,120 S21: and so on. It's and, you know, this is this goes. 466 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,200 S21: The Soviet Union was the exact opposite of that. Working 467 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,320 S21: people had no control over anything. They were virtual slaves. 468 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,480 S21: And the collapse of the Soviet Union is in fact 469 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,880 S21: a small victory for socialism, in my opinion, eliminated one 470 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,160 S21: of the major barriers to it and should have been 471 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:05,000 S21: recognized as such. But the term has been, as I said, 472 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,640 S21: so become so meaningless that it's hard even to use. 473 00:27:09,550 --> 00:27:13,070 S1: So says political activist and social critic Noam Chomsky. If 474 00:27:13,109 --> 00:27:14,710 S1: you believe what he has to say. But it goes 475 00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:17,590 S1: right again to the core of our conversation with Ian Murray. 476 00:27:17,869 --> 00:27:20,990 S1: He's written the brand new book, The Socialist Temptation. And 477 00:27:20,990 --> 00:27:23,310 S1: I was thinking, as he was talking about something that 478 00:27:23,310 --> 00:27:26,070 S1: Margaret Thatcher said, she said, Marxists get up early in 479 00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:28,590 S1: the morning to further their cause. We must get up 480 00:27:28,590 --> 00:27:31,949 S1: even earlier to defend our freedoms. Ian is the director 481 00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:34,550 S1: of the centre for Economic Freedom at the Competitive Enterprise 482 00:27:34,550 --> 00:27:37,870 S1: Institute in. This exemplifies beautifully what you said earlier in 483 00:27:37,869 --> 00:27:41,390 S1: our conversation that it's always that their problem that that 484 00:27:41,390 --> 00:27:43,670 S1: was never. In fact, the fall of the Soviet Union 485 00:27:43,670 --> 00:27:46,790 S1: was in fact a victory for socialism. Well, this goes 486 00:27:46,790 --> 00:27:49,990 S1: to exactly what you said, that somewhere there's this illusion 487 00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:53,350 S1: that somehow the perfect socialistic system is out there. We 488 00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:56,470 S1: just haven't got it perfected yet. He said something else 489 00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:58,270 S1: that was important. And you discussed this quite a bit. 490 00:27:58,270 --> 00:28:01,550 S1: And this is something that C.I. talks about all the time. 491 00:28:01,550 --> 00:28:04,310 S1: And that's this idea of the worker and what the 492 00:28:04,350 --> 00:28:08,580 S1: worker is entitled to. There's this feeling. AOC talked about it. 493 00:28:08,619 --> 00:28:12,980 S1: Chomsky talked about it as well, that somehow there's a rightness, 494 00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:16,100 S1: if you will, a transcendent morality, more to the point 495 00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:20,220 S1: that the worker should be getting exactly the same as 496 00:28:20,220 --> 00:28:23,619 S1: everyone else. Because, after all, the worker is contributing to 497 00:28:23,660 --> 00:28:27,860 S1: the wealth of the manufacturer, the industry, the business. Now, 498 00:28:27,859 --> 00:28:30,300 S1: you said something before that I think is very romantic 499 00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:34,740 S1: of America's philosophy, which is equal opportunity. But we do 500 00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:38,820 S1: not guarantee equal outcome. The worker has a chance to 501 00:28:38,860 --> 00:28:43,020 S1: try to move up the line, become a supervisor, an inspector, whatever. 502 00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:46,700 S1: And yet this philosophy is that somehow, because you are 503 00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,300 S1: the worker, you should be given an equal amount. What 504 00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:51,380 S1: if you're a lazy worker? What if you're a worker 505 00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:53,940 S1: that doesn't put in eight full hours every day? Why 506 00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:57,300 S1: would that worker be entitled to the same as everybody 507 00:28:57,300 --> 00:28:58,860 S1: else or even the management? 508 00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:04,900 S16: Well, indeed, the, the um, sanctified version of the worker 509 00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:08,330 S16: and his labor is really at the heart of, uh, 510 00:29:08,530 --> 00:29:12,690 S16: of all of socialist thought, whether it be whether it 511 00:29:12,690 --> 00:29:16,850 S16: be Karl Marx's or whether it be, uh, Noam Chomsky's, uh, it's, uh, 512 00:29:18,370 --> 00:29:23,410 S16: there is a belief that, uh, that something has value 513 00:29:23,410 --> 00:29:26,690 S16: because of the labor you put into it. Uh, this, 514 00:29:26,850 --> 00:29:34,170 S16: this is something that that's termed the labor theory of value. Uh, and, uh, 515 00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:39,930 S16: because you as a worker, uh, are putting value into this, 516 00:29:40,130 --> 00:29:45,330 S16: in putting labor into creating this value. If you don't 517 00:29:45,330 --> 00:29:49,010 S16: get the full value of that labor back, then you 518 00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:55,490 S16: are being alienated from this labor. This is Marxist alienation theory. 519 00:29:55,850 --> 00:30:02,290 S16: The idea is that somehow you are becoming less human, uh, because, uh, 520 00:30:02,290 --> 00:30:09,560 S16: a boss, uh, is, uh, pointing you and extorting, uh, 521 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,160 S16: the sum of the value that you put into your, uh, 522 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,560 S16: into your labor, uh, away from you. So this is 523 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:23,040 S16: really at the heart of so much socialist thought, but 524 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:28,280 S16: when you get down to, uh, how you would translate this, uh, 525 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:35,000 S16: this theory of value into workers control of industry, uh, 526 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,960 S16: that's when you are faced with one of socialism's many contradictions, 527 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,400 S16: which is the worker can't control the value and at 528 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,640 S16: the same time be part of an organization that's producing, uh, 529 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,360 S16: some stuff. Otherwise he'd never get anything done. The worker 530 00:30:54,640 --> 00:31:00,080 S16: can't spend all of his time, uh, helping to direct 531 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,910 S16: the efforts of the factory he's in and actually produce stuff. 532 00:31:06,030 --> 00:31:11,110 S16: So in the end, it devolves into a form of 533 00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:16,709 S16: bureaucracy one way or the other, whereby the, uh, the 534 00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:22,190 S16: worker is not being, and this is again, always using, uh, 535 00:31:22,350 --> 00:31:25,630 S16: the labor theory of value as valid. And, you know, 536 00:31:25,790 --> 00:31:29,590 S16: there are good reasons why it's not, but, uh, the 537 00:31:29,630 --> 00:31:33,910 S16: worker will end up being exploited by the bureaucrat rather 538 00:31:33,910 --> 00:31:37,790 S16: than the boss. So, so in the end, socialism, socialism 539 00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:39,670 S16: just doesn't work on its own terms. 540 00:31:39,870 --> 00:31:41,709 S1: There's a parallel train of thought, it seems to me 541 00:31:41,710 --> 00:31:43,470 S1: on this. And you discuss this in the book, which 542 00:31:43,470 --> 00:31:46,710 S1: is what's the concept or does it exist at all 543 00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:51,230 S1: within the parameters of socialism? The idea of personal property, 544 00:31:51,230 --> 00:31:54,390 S1: if again, the individual is subjective to the collective. How 545 00:31:54,390 --> 00:31:55,790 S1: could you have personal property? 546 00:31:55,950 --> 00:32:00,780 S16: Well, absolutely. This, uh, this is why, um. uh, all 547 00:32:01,340 --> 00:32:05,860 S16: this of all the traditional forms of, uh, of socialism, uh, 548 00:32:06,020 --> 00:32:12,860 S16: regard your personal property as, uh, at the disposal of, uh, 549 00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:16,580 S16: of the collective in one way or another. Uh, in 550 00:32:17,060 --> 00:32:23,220 S16: the purest form, there is no such thing as personal property, uh, in, 551 00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:27,020 S16: in its most basic form. Uh, we see that, um, 552 00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:31,740 S16: that there is, uh, that your personal property has a 553 00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:36,220 S16: claim on it, uh, by the state, which normally, uh, 554 00:32:36,580 --> 00:32:40,820 S16: manifests in the form of taxation and normally very punitive 555 00:32:40,860 --> 00:32:46,260 S16: tax taxation at that, but can go much further. You know, uh, 556 00:32:46,420 --> 00:32:52,780 S16: you regularly see, uh, expropriation, uh, of, of long held 557 00:32:52,780 --> 00:32:57,340 S16: personal property, uh, just being accepted as a norm in 558 00:32:57,340 --> 00:33:01,410 S16: a socialist state. And this, unfortunately, is what leads to 559 00:33:01,450 --> 00:33:04,810 S16: one of the greatest sins of socialism, which is when 560 00:33:04,810 --> 00:33:09,370 S16: they collectivize land. If you mentioned earlier that I had 561 00:33:09,370 --> 00:33:13,450 S16: a chapter called The Socialist Death Toll in the Socialist Temptation. Yes. 562 00:33:14,090 --> 00:33:19,450 S16: When whenever the socialists collectivize land like they did in 563 00:33:19,450 --> 00:33:23,050 S16: the Ukraine, in in the Soviet Union, like they did 564 00:33:23,050 --> 00:33:25,810 S16: in China during the Great Leap forward, like they did 565 00:33:25,850 --> 00:33:30,330 S16: in Cambodia during Year zero, like they've done in Venezuela 566 00:33:31,130 --> 00:33:36,930 S16: not so long ago. This always leads to mass starvation and, 567 00:33:37,290 --> 00:33:45,290 S16: and huge numbers of deaths that are otherwise otherwise avoidable. 568 00:33:45,810 --> 00:33:49,010 S16: This view that that the society has a claim on 569 00:33:49,010 --> 00:33:53,969 S16: personal property that can be collectivized is just one. It's, 570 00:33:54,130 --> 00:33:56,800 S16: in my opinion, the deadliest feature of socialism. 571 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,360 S1: Could not agree more. Let me. I've referenced it a 572 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,080 S1: couple of times. You talk about Marx and his position 573 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,120 S1: on the idea of religion. In fact, you insert a quote. Religion, 574 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,920 S1: he said, is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the 575 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,160 S1: heart of the heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions, 576 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,160 S1: the abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the 577 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:20,160 S1: people is the demand for their real happiness. You cannot weave. 578 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,919 S1: You've said it over and over and over again in 579 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,279 S1: a myriad of wonderfully illustrative ways, that this is the 580 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,240 S1: death of the individual in socialism. There's nothing more individualistic 581 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,920 S1: than rights of conscience in this country. You point out 582 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,680 S1: rightfully in the book, it is the first part of 583 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,240 S1: the First Amendment with intentionality. Religion can't possibly be healthy, vibrant, 584 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,920 S1: or even considered a viable option within a socialistic paradigm. 585 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:42,960 S1: Talk to me about that. 586 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,919 S16: Well, one of the things that's most important about socialism 587 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:54,120 S16: is that the state provides, uh, public goods or social 588 00:34:54,230 --> 00:35:03,630 S16: goods are. In free societies. Uh, we have, uh, churches 589 00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:11,350 S16: are a major provider of, of social goods. Uh, they 590 00:35:11,390 --> 00:35:16,670 S16: and other non-profit associations form what we call civil society, 591 00:35:16,670 --> 00:35:23,830 S16: which is a sort of spontaneous, uh, mutual, uh, mutual 592 00:35:23,830 --> 00:35:29,630 S16: provision of public goods by individuals and families and, uh, 593 00:35:29,630 --> 00:35:33,669 S16: and communities like churches coming together to provide that, that 594 00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:38,270 S16: means that they are a direct competitor to, uh, to, 595 00:35:38,590 --> 00:35:43,830 S16: to the state as a provider of public goods and also, uh, some, uh, 596 00:35:44,270 --> 00:35:47,870 S16: an example of how it can be done normally much 597 00:35:47,870 --> 00:35:52,390 S16: more efficiently than, than, than the state does it. So 598 00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:59,020 S16: at that very basic level, the state cannot allow this 599 00:35:59,020 --> 00:36:06,540 S16: sort of competition, uh, to, to, uh, to survive. So 600 00:36:06,860 --> 00:36:11,900 S16: churches and the rest have to be eliminated as a 601 00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:13,939 S16: pernicious competitor to socialism. 602 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:17,020 S1: Wow. Well said. And a wake up call. The book 603 00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:21,180 S1: is called The Socialist Temptation. Ian Murphy, Ian Murray, excuse me, 604 00:36:21,180 --> 00:36:22,779 S1: is the author. You can learn more by going to 605 00:36:22,780 --> 00:36:26,540 S1: my website in the market with janet.org. Click on that 606 00:36:26,540 --> 00:36:29,219 S1: red box. It's the information box. It'll take you over 607 00:36:29,219 --> 00:36:31,299 S1: to the page that has everything you need, including a 608 00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:34,259 S1: link to the Competitive Enterprise Institute and a link to 609 00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:37,780 S1: the book. We're discussing the socialist temptation more after this. 610 00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:51,970 S22: I feel like everyone should have like, um, free education 611 00:36:51,969 --> 00:36:52,930 S22: and health care. 612 00:36:52,969 --> 00:36:54,050 S23: How are we going to pay for those? 613 00:36:55,050 --> 00:36:55,690 S3: Oh, God. 614 00:36:56,210 --> 00:36:56,730 S7: I mean. 615 00:36:57,730 --> 00:36:58,130 S23: Us. 616 00:36:58,330 --> 00:36:59,370 S7: Us, I guess. 617 00:36:59,410 --> 00:37:01,250 S23: Who in your mind should pay for all of the 618 00:37:01,250 --> 00:37:02,049 S23: free things? 619 00:37:02,210 --> 00:37:05,290 S24: All the free things. Well, some of it should come 620 00:37:05,290 --> 00:37:07,690 S24: from taxes, but the government should pay for it. 621 00:37:07,690 --> 00:37:09,489 S23: But the government is funded by taxes. 622 00:37:09,530 --> 00:37:10,050 S24: Yeah. 623 00:37:10,090 --> 00:37:11,970 S23: I don't know where the money would come from, but 624 00:37:12,850 --> 00:37:15,850 S23: they can figure it out. Okay. The people with a 625 00:37:15,850 --> 00:37:17,650 S23: good idea and a good reason to spend their tax 626 00:37:17,650 --> 00:37:20,290 S23: money wouldn't mind actually paying more taxes. 627 00:37:20,330 --> 00:37:22,610 S1: I always find that interesting that the people who know 628 00:37:22,650 --> 00:37:24,890 S1: won't be asked that questions are the ones that are 629 00:37:24,890 --> 00:37:28,410 S1: quick to say. Those people will pay more taxes. Wow, 630 00:37:28,410 --> 00:37:31,089 S1: what an important and timely conversation. The book is called 631 00:37:31,090 --> 00:37:34,529 S1: The Socialist Temptation, written by Ian Murray, who directs the 632 00:37:34,530 --> 00:37:38,890 S1: center for Economic Freedom at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. He 633 00:37:38,890 --> 00:37:42,210 S1: serves there as vice president for strategy and a senior fellow. 634 00:37:42,210 --> 00:37:44,290 S1: And for the past 15 years, he has written and 635 00:37:44,290 --> 00:37:47,689 S1: lectured extensively on free markets and the environment. And you 636 00:37:47,690 --> 00:37:50,839 S1: can tell that he doesn't. exquisite job. Ian, let me 637 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,480 S1: just dive right into this idea of free stuff. So 638 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,400 S1: many questions I want to squeeze in this last segment. 639 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,560 S1: You should see. I'd be embarrassed, actually, if you could 640 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,840 S1: see my copy of your book. It's dog eared and underlined, 641 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,600 S1: which means I've really poured myself into this book. It's this. 642 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,719 S1: It's the Pied Piper. He plays this deadly tune that 643 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,040 S1: government will give you free stuff. I used to think that, too, 644 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,080 S1: before I came to work and live in Washington. And 645 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,279 S1: then I realized that I send my money and then 646 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,680 S1: they send me the bill. There is no free lunch. 647 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,080 S1: And yet they say this and say this and say this. 648 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,200 S1: And apparently there are enough people in this country. And 649 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,440 S1: let me limit my remarks just to the United States 650 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,080 S1: who feel that the government, like it's not us, that 651 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,759 S1: the government is giving us free stuff. Who doesn't want 652 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,120 S1: free stuff? I'd love free health care. I'd love free college. 653 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,360 S1: I'd love free money. But there we have cherry trees 654 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,520 S1: in our town. We don't have trees that grow money. 655 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,880 S1: So why do they keep repeating this? Because anybody. They 656 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,879 S1: don't have to have a school from the London degree, 657 00:38:46,989 --> 00:38:50,270 S1: from the London School of Economics to understand there is 658 00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:53,629 S1: nothing free. We, the people from the bottom up, not 659 00:38:53,630 --> 00:38:57,910 S1: the top down, send our taxes. They're supposed to, as stewards, 660 00:38:58,070 --> 00:39:00,870 S1: make wise choices with our money for the better good 661 00:39:00,870 --> 00:39:03,430 S1: of the country. Where's the breakdown? Here. 662 00:39:03,630 --> 00:39:08,030 S16: Well, I think this comes down to there is a 663 00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:16,110 S16: new form of thinking in in amongst socialism in socialists that, uh, 664 00:39:16,510 --> 00:39:20,270 S16: it goes to the, um, uh, that old saying, I 665 00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:22,830 S16: think it was Ben Franklin that there is a, there 666 00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:26,710 S16: are only two things. Sure. In life death and taxes. Well, 667 00:39:26,750 --> 00:39:31,990 S16: perhaps it's debt. And taxes are actually the two things. 668 00:39:31,989 --> 00:39:38,030 S16: They realized that, uh, taxes can't provide everything they want 669 00:39:38,070 --> 00:39:44,069 S16: to provide. Um, the, they know this intuitively. They know 670 00:39:44,070 --> 00:39:47,900 S16: this at an empirical level. They know that even if 671 00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:52,580 S16: you take the, the, the incomes of the, of the 672 00:39:52,580 --> 00:39:57,540 S16: top 1% and total and redistribute all of those, all 673 00:39:57,580 --> 00:40:00,419 S16: of those incomes, that still isn't enough to pay for 674 00:40:00,420 --> 00:40:04,819 S16: just America's programs today. Never mind the programs that they 675 00:40:04,820 --> 00:40:07,220 S16: want to put in place. So they've come up with 676 00:40:07,219 --> 00:40:12,339 S16: a new theory. It's something called Modern monetary theory. The 677 00:40:12,340 --> 00:40:15,180 S16: idea behind this is that you don't have to worry 678 00:40:15,180 --> 00:40:20,420 S16: about debt because you're only borrowing from yourselves. This is 679 00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:24,900 S16: the this is the, uh, the, the central thesis of, 680 00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:30,580 S16: of modern monetary theory. So therefore the government can, uh, 681 00:40:30,739 --> 00:40:35,140 S16: can just borrow and borrow and borrow to pay for this. 682 00:40:35,140 --> 00:40:38,500 S16: And because we're only borrowing from ourselves, the, uh, the 683 00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:42,620 S16: bill will never come due. Of course, the bill will 684 00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:46,370 S16: come to you at some point, and that at that point, 685 00:40:46,690 --> 00:40:51,009 S16: the economic collapse will probably make, uh, previous socialist economic 686 00:40:51,010 --> 00:40:54,410 S16: collapses look, uh, look mundane by comparison. 687 00:40:54,450 --> 00:40:56,810 S1: Yeah, I fear you're right on that. I talked about 688 00:40:56,810 --> 00:40:59,810 S1: freedom of religion. Let me, on a parallel track, ask 689 00:40:59,810 --> 00:41:02,009 S1: you about freedom of speech. Does it exist in a 690 00:41:02,010 --> 00:41:03,129 S1: socialist environment? 691 00:41:03,850 --> 00:41:07,169 S16: A good socialist will tell you, yes. Freedom of speech 692 00:41:07,250 --> 00:41:11,290 S16: is one of the most important values. However, just as 693 00:41:11,290 --> 00:41:14,609 S16: we talked about, uh, the way that they when they 694 00:41:14,610 --> 00:41:18,210 S16: talk about equality, they mean equality of outcome rather than 695 00:41:18,250 --> 00:41:21,890 S16: equality of opportunity. There's a similar difference when it comes 696 00:41:21,890 --> 00:41:27,010 S16: to what freedom and freedom of speech mean, uh, to, uh, 697 00:41:27,690 --> 00:41:33,170 S16: the modern socialist freedom of speech is only valid when it, uh, 698 00:41:33,210 --> 00:41:40,010 S16: attempts to, uh, redress an imbalance of power. So, uh, 699 00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:43,440 S16: you are free to say that the system is corrupt 700 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,560 S16: and terrible and racist and oppressive and and that's a 701 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,719 S16: bad thing. If you want to use your freedom of 702 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,600 S16: speech to say no, that that's not the case. Uh, 703 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,319 S16: the then that's when you cease to have that freedom 704 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,280 S16: because you are not trying to redress that balance of power. So, uh, 705 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,680 S16: so you are allowed to be canceled because you are 706 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:16,560 S16: not contributing to freedom. Uh, on this, uh, this redefinition 707 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,280 S16: of what freedom of speech means. 708 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,360 S1: His name was Eric Arthur Blair, more commonly known as 709 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:28,480 S1: George Orwell, but he was an outspoken critic against democratic socialism. 710 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,280 S1: I bet most people listening when they were reading Animal 711 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,400 S1: Farm in English lit class in high school didn't understand 712 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,399 S1: that that was really his opinion piece to try to 713 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:43,029 S1: extol Stole the evils of democratic socialism. You talk about 714 00:42:43,030 --> 00:42:45,589 S1: this in your book. All animals are equal. Some are 715 00:42:45,590 --> 00:42:48,350 S1: just more equal than others. What did he mean by that? 716 00:42:48,950 --> 00:42:51,270 S16: Well, this is exactly what I was saying about that 717 00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:54,790 S16: new class of bureaucrats that replaces the old ruling class. 718 00:42:56,230 --> 00:43:03,150 S16: Under socialism, you will always have because of the nature of, 719 00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:09,670 S16: of of that so-called democratic control, somebody has to represent 720 00:43:09,670 --> 00:43:14,870 S16: the people to exercise the democratic control. So this means 721 00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:19,350 S16: that the pigs will take on that, that responsibility, and 722 00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:21,390 S16: they'll be happy to do it for the benefit of 723 00:43:21,390 --> 00:43:24,390 S16: all the other farm animals. And in the end, you 724 00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:27,390 S16: find them walking on their hind legs and being just 725 00:43:27,390 --> 00:43:28,870 S16: as oppressive as Farmer Jones. 726 00:43:30,630 --> 00:43:33,549 S1: What a superb ending, Ian. Thank you. The book is 727 00:43:33,550 --> 00:43:37,819 S1: called The Socialist Temptation. It is absolutely superb. You can 728 00:43:37,820 --> 00:43:40,660 S1: imagine when you have degrees from the University of London 729 00:43:40,660 --> 00:43:43,060 S1: and from Oxford that you could have written an academic tome. 730 00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:46,380 S1: Ian didn't do that. He made his book very populous, 731 00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:48,580 S1: in that he breaks down these systems. He helps you 732 00:43:48,580 --> 00:43:51,540 S1: understand the history. He breaks it up into several compartments 733 00:43:51,660 --> 00:43:54,180 S1: in the book and talks about the impact on business 734 00:43:54,180 --> 00:43:57,260 S1: and speech and religion and the history and just very, 735 00:43:57,260 --> 00:43:59,620 S1: very powerful. So I strongly recommend the book to you 736 00:43:59,620 --> 00:44:02,620 S1: when you're done. Pick up your copy of Animal Farm. 737 00:44:02,620 --> 00:44:04,580 S1: You read it a long time ago, and I'll read 738 00:44:04,580 --> 00:44:07,299 S1: it in light of what's happening today. That also is 739 00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:10,299 S1: a great tutorial on the evils of socialism. Ian, I 740 00:44:10,300 --> 00:44:12,020 S1: thank you so much. The book again is called The 741 00:44:12,020 --> 00:44:14,940 S1: Socialist Temptation. You can learn more by going to in 742 00:44:14,980 --> 00:44:17,500 S1: the market with Janet dot o r g. Click on 743 00:44:17,540 --> 00:44:20,020 S1: that red box. It'll take you to the information page. 744 00:44:20,020 --> 00:44:22,739 S1: We have a link to the Competitive Enterprise Institute and 745 00:44:22,739 --> 00:44:25,380 S1: also a link to the book, The Socialist Temptation, so 746 00:44:25,380 --> 00:44:27,859 S1: that you can learn more. We're listener supported. We've got 747 00:44:27,860 --> 00:44:30,100 S1: truth tools. That's what I give you when you give 748 00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:32,780 S1: to the program. You can give on that website as well. Thanks, friends. 749 00:44:32,780 --> 00:44:33,780 S1: We'll see you next time.