1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,799 S1: Do you believe in miracles? Al Michaels said that during 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,800 S1: the Olympics a few years ago, but today's program is 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,680 S1: not about an underdog beating the Russians on the ice. 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:21,360 S1: This is about the unexplainable power of God invading people's lives. 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,000 S1: Now we can believe that happened in the first century. 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,920 S1: I read the Gospels and I see Jesus turning the 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,720 S1: water to wine. I see lepers healed. I see the 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,000 S1: blind have sight and the lame walk. But what about today? 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,040 S1: Is God still in the miracle working business, and if so, 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,520 S1: is he obligated to perform a miracle if we ask 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,120 S1: him in faith? Lee Strobel is a walking miracle in 12 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:47,680 S1: a lot of ways, and a few months ago we 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,760 S1: talked with him about his book, The Case for miracles. 14 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,000 S1: There's a new documentary coming to theaters of that same title, 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,960 S1: and he is the main focus of that film. It's 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,630 S1: called The Case for miracles. And we're going to talk 17 00:01:01,630 --> 00:01:03,510 S1: about that and a whole lot more straight ahead on 18 00:01:03,510 --> 00:01:05,750 S1: the program, from the heart to the heart for the heart. 19 00:01:06,069 --> 00:01:08,750 S1: Let's get going on this week before Thanksgiving. Can you 20 00:01:08,750 --> 00:01:11,430 S1: believe that? With a thank you to Ryan McConaughey doing 21 00:01:11,430 --> 00:01:14,470 S1: all things technical. Trish is our producer. Lisa is with 22 00:01:14,470 --> 00:01:17,709 S1: us today. Josh will be answering your calls. And if 23 00:01:17,709 --> 00:01:20,190 S1: you're a back fence partner, make sure you watch the 24 00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:22,710 S1: video that we sent your way today. I went back 25 00:01:22,709 --> 00:01:25,390 S1: to a file I keep in my outlook folder that's 26 00:01:25,430 --> 00:01:30,910 S1: titled Angry Show Letters and the Angry Show letters about 27 00:01:30,910 --> 00:01:34,750 S1: this program led me to a good place of the heart. 28 00:01:34,750 --> 00:01:37,830 S1: I titled it How to Get Encouragement from Your Low Point. 29 00:01:37,990 --> 00:01:42,030 S1: Read all about the email anger about this program. Everybody 30 00:01:42,030 --> 00:01:44,470 S1: likes conflict, right? You know, you just got to read 31 00:01:44,510 --> 00:01:47,229 S1: read about the conflict. Now, if you aren't a back 32 00:01:47,270 --> 00:01:49,910 S1: fence partner, you can do that. You could sign up today. 33 00:01:49,910 --> 00:01:52,430 S1: You can give a gift each month. Get that video 34 00:01:52,430 --> 00:01:55,270 S1: that I send out every Thursday, plus a signed copy 35 00:01:55,270 --> 00:01:58,150 S1: of The Promise of Jesse Woods, and you'll have access 36 00:01:58,270 --> 00:02:00,870 S1: to our monthly thank you for ten more days. We're 37 00:02:00,870 --> 00:02:05,670 S1: sending anyone who supports us the delightfully fun little Christmas 38 00:02:05,710 --> 00:02:09,550 S1: coloring and activity book for your kids or grandkids, illustrated 39 00:02:09,550 --> 00:02:12,870 S1: by Jo Sutphen. Get in touch today. Become a friend. 40 00:02:13,030 --> 00:02:15,750 S1: Give a one time gift, or become a partner. Join 41 00:02:15,750 --> 00:02:19,870 S1: with us monthly at Christmas. You say, I don't know 42 00:02:19,870 --> 00:02:23,750 S1: how to spell that. Fab is in fab. Fab are Y, 43 00:02:23,790 --> 00:02:29,190 S1: Chris Fabry live or Chris Fabry live if you want. 44 00:02:29,430 --> 00:02:38,950 S1: Or you can call us at 8669538669532279. Lee Strobel is 45 00:02:38,950 --> 00:02:42,270 S1: a former award winning legal editor of the Chicago Tribune. 46 00:02:42,270 --> 00:02:45,030 S1: He's a New York Times best selling author whose books 47 00:02:45,030 --> 00:02:48,390 S1: have been translated into 40 languages. Now. He earned a 48 00:02:48,389 --> 00:02:51,670 S1: journalism degree at the University of Missouri, was awarded a 49 00:02:51,669 --> 00:02:54,870 S1: Ford Foundation Fellowship to study at Yale Law School, where 50 00:02:54,870 --> 00:03:00,139 S1: he received a masters of Studies in Law degree. Former atheist, 51 00:03:00,460 --> 00:03:03,100 S1: he served as a teaching pastor at three of America's 52 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:06,540 S1: largest churches. He and his wife, Leslie have been married. 53 00:03:06,780 --> 00:03:09,660 S1: This is just not I can't wrap my mind around this. 54 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:14,020 S1: More than 50 years. They live in Texas. Lee. Welcome back. 55 00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:15,180 S1: Can that be true? 56 00:03:16,460 --> 00:03:19,459 S2: Thank you so much, Chris. Yes, 53 years. Don't don't 57 00:03:19,460 --> 00:03:23,980 S2: cheat me out of those three years. Um, yeah. We 58 00:03:23,980 --> 00:03:26,820 S2: got married, I was 20, she was 19. And, uh, 59 00:03:26,820 --> 00:03:28,859 S2: we've stuck together all these years. 60 00:03:28,860 --> 00:03:31,220 S1: You got married in a fever. Hotter than a pepper spray. 61 00:03:31,260 --> 00:03:32,100 S1: That's what it was. 62 00:03:32,620 --> 00:03:33,420 S2: There you go. 63 00:03:33,580 --> 00:03:36,580 S1: Okay, so, uh, here's what I'll say about the film. 64 00:03:36,580 --> 00:03:39,820 S1: The film is coming out December 15th through 18, so 65 00:03:39,860 --> 00:03:44,140 S1: it's a real short window. Lee provides the miracles in 66 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:46,940 S1: that film. You need to bring your own tissues because 67 00:03:46,940 --> 00:03:50,300 S1: there's something in there. I, I saw a screener for this, 68 00:03:50,300 --> 00:03:52,380 S1: so it's not like sitting in the theater and watching it, 69 00:03:52,380 --> 00:03:55,970 S1: but I saw it and was really, really moved by 70 00:03:56,250 --> 00:04:00,050 S1: not only you up there, you know, playing this out, Lee, 71 00:04:00,370 --> 00:04:03,970 S1: but bringing these stories to life. Tell us about how 72 00:04:04,010 --> 00:04:05,290 S1: that how did it all start? 73 00:04:05,890 --> 00:04:08,930 S2: Well, we wanted to look at miracle accounts that are 74 00:04:08,930 --> 00:04:11,130 S2: not just things you hear about on the internet, or 75 00:04:11,130 --> 00:04:14,170 S2: somebody tells you in a conversation. We want to documented stuff. 76 00:04:14,170 --> 00:04:18,170 S2: We want the stuff where we have a solid medical documentation, 77 00:04:18,570 --> 00:04:21,690 S2: where we have multiple incredible eyewitnesses who have no motive 78 00:04:21,690 --> 00:04:26,570 S2: to deceive, natural explanation that explains this away and where 79 00:04:26,570 --> 00:04:29,330 S2: it takes place in the context of prayer. And many 80 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:31,650 S2: of the miracles we've documented in my book and in 81 00:04:31,650 --> 00:04:34,930 S2: the movie were published in peer reviewed medical journals after 82 00:04:34,930 --> 00:04:39,250 S2: being documented by medical researchers. So this is really solid stuff. 83 00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:42,370 S2: And yet, like you, man, I watch a screener and 84 00:04:42,370 --> 00:04:46,729 S2: I'm I'm crying in this movie because God is so good. 85 00:04:47,130 --> 00:04:49,650 S2: And you see the stories of these people who are 86 00:04:49,650 --> 00:04:53,410 S2: suffering so much and God reaches down and does something 87 00:04:53,410 --> 00:04:59,440 S2: that is absolutely inexplicable other than a supernatural intervention in 88 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:00,200 S2: their lives. 89 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,920 S1: Okay, so that's my question then. When you say miracle, 90 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,360 S1: define that. What do you mean by miracle? 91 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,320 S2: Yeah, I think Richard Purtill, who is a philosopher, came 92 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,320 S2: up with the best definition. He said A miracle is 93 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,160 S2: an event brought about by the power of God. That 94 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,520 S2: is a temporary exception to the ordinary course of nature, 95 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,159 S2: for the purpose of showing that God has acted in history. 96 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,560 S2: So this is not a lot of people misunderstand miracles, 97 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,120 S2: all of the laws of nature. You can't violate the 98 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,080 S2: laws of nature. Therefore miracles are not possible. But they're 99 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,799 S2: not a violation of laws of nature. If I'm sitting 100 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,480 S2: here in my office and I've got a Sharpie in 101 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,200 S2: my hand, if I were to drop it, the law 102 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,320 S2: of gravity says it's going to hit the floor. But 103 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,520 S2: if I drop it and you reach in and grab 104 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,120 S2: it before it hits the floor, you're not. I'm not 105 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,040 S2: violating the law of gravity. I'm not overturning the law 106 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,400 S2: of gravity. You're merely intervening. And that's what God does 107 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,440 S2: in the creation he clearly himself brought about. He's able 108 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,640 S2: to intervene at will to create something that to us 109 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,080 S2: is supernatural. 110 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:05,800 S3: Yeah. Why are you. 111 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,280 S1: So were you and are you so interested in the 112 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:10,479 S1: miraculous then? 113 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,360 S2: Well, first of all, because it brought me to faith. 114 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:14,880 S2: I mean, I was an atheist, but it was the 115 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,279 S2: miracle of the resurrection of Jesus, for which we have 116 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,880 S2: solid historical documentation that really brought me to my knees 117 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,479 S2: and convinced me that Jesus is who he claimed to be, 118 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,240 S2: the unique Son of God. So it was that miracle 119 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,480 S2: that changed. Then you look at the other, the miracle 120 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,880 S2: of Christmas. You know, we're just embarking on the Christmas 121 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,000 S2: season and what a miracle that is. Um, and then, 122 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,960 S2: you know, when I see these documented cases, it just 123 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,040 S2: deepens my faith. It reminds me that God is a 124 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,320 S2: miracle working God. And to this day, he's doing things 125 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:54,790 S2: that defy easy explanations and accomplishes something that we just 126 00:06:54,790 --> 00:06:58,030 S2: throw up our hands and say, Only God could do that. 127 00:06:58,070 --> 00:06:58,589 S3: Yes. 128 00:06:59,110 --> 00:07:04,030 S1: And in the film, you see Lee Strobel talking with 129 00:07:04,190 --> 00:07:07,430 S1: a man he's riding around in an old Bronco with 130 00:07:07,470 --> 00:07:12,830 S1: through the desert, and you're talking about these specific miraculous stories. 131 00:07:12,830 --> 00:07:15,310 S1: So let me call Time Out. We're going to come 132 00:07:15,310 --> 00:07:18,110 S1: back if you go to the website. Chris. Org, we 133 00:07:18,110 --> 00:07:20,790 S1: have the book still linked for you, but the film 134 00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:24,590 S1: is going to be in theaters December 15th through 18. 135 00:07:24,630 --> 00:07:27,630 S1: We have a link right there, and I want to 136 00:07:27,630 --> 00:07:31,190 S1: ask Lee about who he wants to see this, who 137 00:07:31,190 --> 00:07:34,590 S1: is the main person. He wants to see this. And 138 00:07:34,590 --> 00:07:41,550 S1: as you listen today, you have a question or a comment. (877) 548-3675. 139 00:07:41,590 --> 00:07:55,100 S1: More with Lee Strobel straight ahead on Moody Radio. Lee 140 00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:57,980 S1: Strobel is back today on Chris Fabry Live, and we're 141 00:07:57,980 --> 00:08:01,420 S1: talking about miracles and a film that he participated in. 142 00:08:01,820 --> 00:08:04,540 S1: It's called A case for miracles. The film is in 143 00:08:04,540 --> 00:08:07,020 S1: theaters December 15 to 18. We have a link at 144 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:11,300 S1: our website, npr.org. It seems like it's a long time away, 145 00:08:11,460 --> 00:08:14,940 S1: but it's less than a month away, and there are 146 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:17,540 S1: tickets that are available. And I wanted to bring it 147 00:08:17,540 --> 00:08:21,020 S1: to you because there's something in here, uh, for the 148 00:08:21,020 --> 00:08:26,860 S1: person who's listening today. Who is the one person you 149 00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:30,180 S1: want to see the case for miracles film? 150 00:08:31,300 --> 00:08:34,540 S2: I think the one person I would love to have, uh, 151 00:08:34,940 --> 00:08:38,620 S2: go to the movie is a Christian who has a 152 00:08:38,620 --> 00:08:42,140 S2: heart for people who are spiritually curious. In other words, 153 00:08:42,140 --> 00:08:45,339 S2: with an evangelistic heart. Am I? My prayer is that 154 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:48,219 S2: Christians will go to the movie and be encouraged. Their 155 00:08:48,220 --> 00:08:51,380 S2: faith will be deepened, more robust. They'll be in awe 156 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:54,620 S2: of God. But I want someone to bring a spiritually 157 00:08:54,620 --> 00:08:58,260 S2: curious friend, someone who doesn't quite get the gospel or 158 00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:02,420 S2: who spiritually confused, uh, you know, to invite them and say, hey, 159 00:09:02,460 --> 00:09:06,300 S2: you know, it's Christmas season. Christmas is supposedly a miracle. Uh, 160 00:09:06,340 --> 00:09:08,820 S2: why don't we see this film together? And, you know, 161 00:09:08,860 --> 00:09:11,180 S2: we'll see if miracles are even possible, and then you 162 00:09:11,179 --> 00:09:13,420 S2: can have a great conversation in the car on the 163 00:09:13,420 --> 00:09:16,059 S2: way home. So that's my hope because I'm an evangelist 164 00:09:16,059 --> 00:09:17,100 S2: at heart, as you know. 165 00:09:17,620 --> 00:09:21,740 S1: Are you a miracle? Uh, your your conversion because you 166 00:09:21,740 --> 00:09:24,300 S1: talked about you came to Christ because of the miracle 167 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:26,660 S1: of the resurrection. But are you a miracle? 168 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:31,740 S2: I think so, I think everybody that, um, Jesus redeems, uh, 169 00:09:31,820 --> 00:09:34,260 S2: through his work on the cross where we receive this 170 00:09:34,260 --> 00:09:36,900 S2: free gift of forgiveness and eternal life. I mean that 171 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:40,060 S2: to me. And I love second Corinthians 517. It says, 172 00:09:40,059 --> 00:09:42,620 S2: you know, when we do that, the old has gone, 173 00:09:42,660 --> 00:09:46,380 S2: the new has come. There's a transformation process that begins. 174 00:09:46,420 --> 00:09:50,929 S2: And that from my perspective, that's a miracle because I 175 00:09:50,929 --> 00:09:59,130 S2: was living a narcissistic, drunken, profane, self-centered, self-destructive life. And, uh, 176 00:09:59,130 --> 00:10:03,090 S2: when I came to Christ, he over time, changed my values, 177 00:10:03,090 --> 00:10:07,250 S2: my character, my morality, my marriage, my parenting, my relationships, 178 00:10:07,250 --> 00:10:11,170 S2: my worldview. I mean, everything over time changed for the good. 179 00:10:11,210 --> 00:10:13,449 S2: And I can only attribute that to the work of 180 00:10:13,450 --> 00:10:14,689 S2: God as a miracle. 181 00:10:15,170 --> 00:10:19,250 S1: Did you have, though, as legal editor and writer? Author, uh, 182 00:10:19,570 --> 00:10:22,250 S1: working with the Tribune? Did you have your own set 183 00:10:22,250 --> 00:10:25,850 S1: of rules, your own morality for what you would wouldn't 184 00:10:25,850 --> 00:10:27,490 S1: do and what you would do? 185 00:10:28,530 --> 00:10:29,890 S2: Before I was a Christian. 186 00:10:29,890 --> 00:10:30,410 S1: Yes. 187 00:10:30,890 --> 00:10:34,610 S2: No, I had no doubt. No guardrails. Are you kidding me? 188 00:10:34,809 --> 00:10:37,490 S2: I would, uh, lie and cheat and do whatever I 189 00:10:37,490 --> 00:10:39,170 S2: can to get a story on the front page of 190 00:10:39,170 --> 00:10:42,370 S2: the Chicago Tribune. I was a I just lived a 191 00:10:42,370 --> 00:10:49,080 S2: very ugly, self-centered, narcissistic life. And, um, I, um, um, 192 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,160 S2: I remember, um, kind of sabotaging the career of another 193 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,080 S2: journalist because I had the opportunity to do that just 194 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,680 S2: because I thought it could lead to my advancement. No, 195 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,640 S2: I was a I was living a very sinful life, 196 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,920 S2: and I'm shocked. My wife tolerated me. She was spiritually 197 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,600 S2: confused at the time, fortunately. And when she came to 198 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,760 S2: faith and I saw the positive changes in her and 199 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,600 S2: I thought maybe I could disprove this. And that's what 200 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,320 S2: launched me on my two year investigation into the miracle 201 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:18,400 S2: of the resurrection. 202 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,080 S1: The other journalist that you tried to sabotage career, the career. 203 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,560 S1: How did that turn out? Did you do that? 204 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,319 S2: I did do it. And he got fired from his job. And, um, 205 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,720 S2: I later, after I became a Christian, tried to approach him, and, uh, 206 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,720 S2: he had died. Um, yeah. So, um, I was never 207 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,080 S2: able to just ask for his forgiveness, but it was 208 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,760 S2: a terrible thing. And, I mean, I had the choice. 209 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,360 S2: I could have been merciful and protected him and and 210 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,520 S2: but I knew I had the goods on him, and 211 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:57,080 S2: I used it to undermine him. It's just a terrible thing. 212 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,120 S2: That's who I was. I was after the front page 213 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,040 S2: at any cost. 214 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,679 S1: How do you deal with that now, though, since you 215 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,280 S1: didn't get the closure of apologizing? 216 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,400 S2: It's hard. It's hard with my dad. I had a 217 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,040 S2: terrible relationship with my dad, and. And I wish I 218 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,760 S2: had closure with that. I wish I'd come to him 219 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,240 S2: and told him how sorry I was, how rebellious I was, 220 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,240 S2: and what a difficult child I had been. And, and, um, 221 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,360 S2: you know, my only hope there is that I believe 222 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:33,960 S2: he's in heaven. And someday we'll we'll, um, meet again. And, um, 223 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,760 S2: my prayers in heaven will have the father son relationship 224 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,440 S2: that we never really had in this world. 225 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,080 S1: I want to be there. I want to be there. 226 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,430 S1: I want to see you and your dad together, as 227 00:12:43,429 --> 00:12:46,550 S1: Johnny Erickson Tada zooms by us. You know, running a 228 00:12:46,750 --> 00:12:50,870 S1: running a marathon. Isn't that great? That'd be great. Okay, 229 00:12:50,910 --> 00:12:54,750 S1: so this film, The Case for miracles, the film that 230 00:12:54,750 --> 00:12:58,790 S1: comes out December 15 to 18. Yeah, you. I don't 231 00:12:58,790 --> 00:13:00,870 S1: want to give too much away here because. And I 232 00:13:00,870 --> 00:13:04,190 S1: could very easily do that. But there's one story that 233 00:13:04,429 --> 00:13:10,830 S1: deals with, uh, Moody Radio in 1981. There's a story 234 00:13:10,830 --> 00:13:15,390 S1: of Barbara Comiskey. So give us an overview of that. 235 00:13:15,870 --> 00:13:18,510 S2: This is a one of the most incredible miracles I've 236 00:13:18,510 --> 00:13:22,230 S2: ever investigated, and I investigated this one personally. I've met Barbara, 237 00:13:22,270 --> 00:13:24,750 S2: I've interviewed Barbara at death. We have medical records from 238 00:13:24,750 --> 00:13:28,510 S2: the Mayo Clinic. Barbara was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic 239 00:13:28,510 --> 00:13:34,230 S2: with multiple sclerosis. She deteriorated very quickly. Multiple surgeries, um, 240 00:13:34,309 --> 00:13:37,670 S2: multiple hospitalizations and to the point where they gave up 241 00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:39,949 S2: on her. One doctor said she was the most hopelessly 242 00:13:39,950 --> 00:13:43,219 S2: ill patient he had ever seen. So they put her 243 00:13:43,220 --> 00:13:45,179 S2: in hospice. She was going to die. And they said, 244 00:13:45,179 --> 00:13:47,100 S2: we're not going to try to resuscitate her next time 245 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:49,980 S2: because she's just it's just prolonging the inevitable. So here 246 00:13:49,980 --> 00:13:53,340 S2: she is in bed at home, dying, and she's curled 247 00:13:53,340 --> 00:13:55,780 S2: up like a pretzel. Her fingertips are touching her wrists. 248 00:13:55,820 --> 00:14:00,540 S2: Her legs are rigidly extended. Her her toes under her feet. Uh, 249 00:14:00,580 --> 00:14:03,740 S2: she's one lung is collapsed. The other lung is a 50%. 250 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:07,340 S2: She lost control of her urination and bowels. She had 251 00:14:07,340 --> 00:14:09,819 S2: a tube in her throat that went to oxygen canisters. 252 00:14:09,820 --> 00:14:12,860 S2: Canisters in her garage so she could breathe. She hadn't 253 00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:14,940 S2: walked in seven years, so all her muscles and her 254 00:14:14,940 --> 00:14:18,500 S2: legs had atrophied, and she was virtually blind. She could 255 00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:22,180 S2: just see gray shapes. And so one day somebody said, well, 256 00:14:22,220 --> 00:14:24,380 S2: we ought to get people praying for poor Barbara. So 257 00:14:24,380 --> 00:14:28,700 S2: they called me the Christian radio station Moody Bible Institute 258 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,140 S2: in Chicago, because she lived in the suburbs of Chicago 259 00:14:31,380 --> 00:14:34,340 S2: and said, could you ask people to pray for Barbara? 260 00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:36,620 S2: And so they did. They went on the air and 261 00:14:36,620 --> 00:14:39,540 S2: they described the situation well. We documented that at least 262 00:14:39,540 --> 00:14:42,890 S2: 450 people began praying for Barbara because they wrote letters 263 00:14:42,890 --> 00:14:45,610 S2: to Barbara. I'm sure more did. But these people wrote 264 00:14:45,610 --> 00:14:50,690 S2: letters telling Barbara. And so on Pentecost Sunday, Barbara had 265 00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:53,570 S2: two friends in her room with her. She's curled up 266 00:14:53,570 --> 00:14:56,770 S2: like a pretzel on deathbed, and they're reading her some 267 00:14:56,770 --> 00:14:58,930 S2: of these letters that they got from people who listened 268 00:14:58,930 --> 00:15:02,050 S2: to me and were praying for her. All of a sudden, 269 00:15:02,050 --> 00:15:04,210 S2: from the corner of the room where nobody was, she 270 00:15:04,210 --> 00:15:07,570 S2: heard the voice of God. And God said, my child, 271 00:15:07,570 --> 00:15:11,690 S2: get up and walk. And so she she reached. She 272 00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:15,010 S2: she yanked the tube from her throat so she could talk. 273 00:15:15,050 --> 00:15:17,010 S2: And she said, guys, I don't know what you think 274 00:15:17,010 --> 00:15:18,410 S2: of this, but God just told me to get up 275 00:15:18,410 --> 00:15:20,410 S2: and walk. Go find my parents. I want them to 276 00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:23,490 S2: be here. So they go out. She couldn't wait, so 277 00:15:23,530 --> 00:15:25,610 S2: I asked her. I said, Barbara, what was it like? 278 00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:28,930 S2: She said, Lee, I jumped out of bed. Now she said, 279 00:15:29,130 --> 00:15:32,330 S2: I noticed three things. Number one, my feet were flat 280 00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:35,290 S2: on the floor. They hadn't been flat in years. Number 281 00:15:35,290 --> 00:15:37,210 S2: two I looked at my hands and my hands had 282 00:15:37,210 --> 00:15:40,570 S2: come uncurled. They've been rigidly clinched for years and they 283 00:15:40,570 --> 00:15:42,730 S2: came in curled and she said she laughed. She said 284 00:15:42,730 --> 00:15:46,330 S2: the third thing I noticed I could see. She said 285 00:15:46,330 --> 00:15:47,930 S2: you'd think they'd be the first thing I noticed. That 286 00:15:47,930 --> 00:15:50,810 S2: was the third thing. I noticed my eyesight had returned 287 00:15:51,130 --> 00:15:55,370 S2: and she her, her, her mother came in, fell to 288 00:15:55,370 --> 00:16:00,130 S2: her knees, grabbed Barbara's calves. Her muscles had returned instantaneously. 289 00:16:00,170 --> 00:16:04,490 S2: Her lungs had instantaneously re-inflated. Well, that was Pentecost Sunday. 290 00:16:04,530 --> 00:16:07,090 S2: They said, let's go to church and thank God for 291 00:16:07,130 --> 00:16:10,770 S2: what happened. It was a Wheaton Wesleyan Church in Wheaton, Illinois. 292 00:16:11,050 --> 00:16:13,290 S2: So they get in the car, they go to the church, 293 00:16:13,330 --> 00:16:15,930 S2: they're there late. The service is already started. The pastor 294 00:16:15,930 --> 00:16:18,290 S2: is up there and he says, anybody have any announcements? 295 00:16:18,570 --> 00:16:22,410 S2: And Barbara comes walking down the center aisle and the 296 00:16:22,410 --> 00:16:25,170 S2: place erupts because people hadn't seen Barbara out of a 297 00:16:25,170 --> 00:16:29,570 S2: wheelchair for seven years. And people began singing amazing Grace. 298 00:16:29,570 --> 00:16:33,170 S2: I once was blind, and now I see. So then 299 00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:36,450 S2: the next day, she goes to her doctor to be examined, 300 00:16:36,450 --> 00:16:39,240 S2: and she's walking down the corridor and the doctor said later, 301 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,040 S2: I saw her walking down the corridor toward my office. 302 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,320 S2: My first thought was, oh, she died and that's a ghost. 303 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,000 S2: He said, this is medically impossible. And yet Barbara was 304 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,280 S2: fully healed. She later married a Wesleyan pastor, and they 305 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,400 S2: had a little church in Fredericksburg, Virginia, serving the Lord 306 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,600 S2: the rest of their lives. Wow. Wow. 307 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,159 S1: And there is in the in the film. There is, 308 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,800 S1: because she passed away a few years ago. Right? 309 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:07,600 S2: Right, right. 310 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,359 S1: Yeah. Um, in the film, if you go to the film, 311 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,760 S1: make sure you stay through the credits because the credits 312 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,800 S1: they start, and then there's more, you know? But wait, 313 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,600 S1: there's more. So you got you got to stay through 314 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,320 S1: the credits. But that story, especially with all the people 315 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,040 S1: who were, were praying for her, who listened to Moody 316 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,520 S1: Radio at the time. That just struck a chord with me. 317 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,760 S2: Oh, I just I had I was crying when I 318 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,120 S2: saw the way we reenact that in the film with, um, 319 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:40,429 S2: you know, Actually what happened being reenacted. And, um, I 320 00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:42,550 S2: was just so touched because I knew Barbara. She was 321 00:17:42,550 --> 00:17:45,350 S2: the sweetest woman. She she, uh, her and her husband 322 00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:48,470 S2: couldn't really live off of, uh, serving at the church. 323 00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:50,270 S2: And so she worked part time as a real estate 324 00:17:50,270 --> 00:17:54,510 S2: agent in Fredericksburg, Virginia, and the sweetest, most upbeat woman. 325 00:17:54,510 --> 00:17:56,790 S2: And when she told me her story, this is years, 326 00:17:56,790 --> 00:17:59,710 S2: as you said, it happened in 1981. And so when 327 00:17:59,710 --> 00:18:02,470 S2: I interviewed her, it was decades later, and her voice 328 00:18:02,470 --> 00:18:05,149 S2: just had a sense of awe in it and wonder 329 00:18:05,150 --> 00:18:08,350 S2: in it and joy in it, just reliving what had 330 00:18:08,350 --> 00:18:09,149 S2: taken place. 331 00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:13,070 S1: The other thing, though, that you are very careful to 332 00:18:13,109 --> 00:18:16,390 S1: do in the film is to, is to show the 333 00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:20,470 S1: other side of it when God says no. Yeah. And again, 334 00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:25,110 S1: I won't give this away. But, um, the, the theological 335 00:18:25,109 --> 00:18:30,190 S1: construct is if God did that for Barbara, then he 336 00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:32,750 S1: will do it for me if I do all the 337 00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:35,270 S1: right things, if I get 450 people to pray for 338 00:18:35,310 --> 00:18:37,550 S1: me from Moody Radio or whatever it is. You know, 339 00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:40,230 S1: if I tow the line, God's going to do this. 340 00:18:40,350 --> 00:18:43,430 S1: And you can't put him in that kind of algorithm, 341 00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:44,070 S1: can you? 342 00:18:44,550 --> 00:18:48,190 S2: That's exactly right. God is sovereign. God knows all. He 343 00:18:48,510 --> 00:18:50,830 S2: is aware of things that we're not aware of. I 344 00:18:50,830 --> 00:18:53,709 S2: can think of things. Miracles I prayed for as a 345 00:18:53,710 --> 00:18:56,830 S2: young Christian today. I say, thank God he didn't grant 346 00:18:56,830 --> 00:19:00,550 S2: that prayer because in hindsight, it would have been a disaster. 347 00:19:00,750 --> 00:19:04,149 S2: And yet, you know, God in his wisdom, knew not 348 00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:07,669 S2: to give me at that time exactly what I wanted. Now, 349 00:19:07,710 --> 00:19:11,550 S2: I think theologically, every follower of Jesus will be healed. Now, 350 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,390 S2: it may not be until we leave for the next world, 351 00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:17,909 S2: and where there's no tears, no suffering and so forth. Um, 352 00:19:17,950 --> 00:19:21,429 S2: but you know, miracles were not, um, automatic in the 353 00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:24,750 S2: New Testament either. I mean, Matthew says Jesus didn't didn't 354 00:19:24,750 --> 00:19:28,350 S2: do many miracles in Nazareth. Uh, in Matthew chapter ten, 355 00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:30,870 S2: the disciples are given the authority to heal. And then 356 00:19:30,869 --> 00:19:34,460 S2: seven chapters later, they can't heal an epileptic boy. Um, 357 00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:36,659 S2: Paul didn't heal everybody. He had a buddy by the 358 00:19:36,660 --> 00:19:39,980 S2: name of Trophimus. Trophimus got sick. What did Paul do? 359 00:19:40,020 --> 00:19:42,900 S2: Did heal him? No. He went off on a missionary journey. 360 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:45,580 S2: And then Paul had this. This thorn in the flesh. 361 00:19:45,580 --> 00:19:48,419 S2: We don't quite know what that was, but apparently God 362 00:19:48,420 --> 00:19:52,180 S2: never took it away. So healing was not automatic. Then. 363 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:55,500 S2: It's not automatic now. But we can trust God that 364 00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:58,780 S2: he's going to do the best possible thing. And all 365 00:19:58,820 --> 00:20:00,739 S2: of us, as we leave this world. You know, my 366 00:20:00,740 --> 00:20:04,460 S2: wife has an incurable, um, neuromuscular condition, and she's been 367 00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:07,020 S2: in pain for 20 years, and she'll be in pain 368 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:09,179 S2: every day for the rest of her life. Unless God 369 00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:11,460 S2: does a miracle. And we've prayed for that. And it's not. 370 00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:16,220 S2: It's not happened. But God has used that in her life, um, 371 00:20:16,580 --> 00:20:19,580 S2: in remarkable ways, to make her a woman of compassion 372 00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:22,100 S2: and empathy toward others that I don't think she would 373 00:20:22,140 --> 00:20:24,860 S2: have been had she not gone through this. And sometimes 374 00:20:24,859 --> 00:20:27,500 S2: people say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Romans 828 God can cause 375 00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:29,540 S2: all things to work together for good, for those who 376 00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:31,459 S2: love him and are called according to his purpose. We 377 00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,610 S2: kind of throw that out. But I like to say, 378 00:20:33,609 --> 00:20:36,530 S2: wait a minute. Think about this. God, if you think 379 00:20:36,530 --> 00:20:40,450 S2: God can't help me. God took the worst thing that 380 00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:42,890 S2: could ever happen in the universe, which is the death 381 00:20:42,890 --> 00:20:46,010 S2: of the Son of God on a cross. And from that, 382 00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:48,730 S2: he did the best thing that's ever happened in the universe, 383 00:20:48,730 --> 00:20:51,129 S2: which is the opening of heaven to all who follow him. 384 00:20:51,369 --> 00:20:53,770 S2: So if God can take the worst thing in the universe, 385 00:20:53,770 --> 00:20:57,330 S2: and from that create the best thing, he can create 386 00:20:57,330 --> 00:21:00,409 S2: something good out of the suffering that we go through. 387 00:21:00,410 --> 00:21:03,330 S2: And you know, you talk to Johnny Erickson. Tada! Um, 388 00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:06,610 S2: here's a woman who, you know, has been paralyzed for over, what, now, 389 00:21:06,650 --> 00:21:09,770 S2: 50 years? And she'll tell you, I'd rather be in 390 00:21:09,770 --> 00:21:13,450 S2: this wheelchair knowing God than walking around and not knowing him. 391 00:21:13,770 --> 00:21:17,770 S1: Yes, exactly. And I think part of the power of 392 00:21:17,770 --> 00:21:20,850 S1: the film is it's going to speak not only to the, 393 00:21:20,890 --> 00:21:24,889 S1: to the Christian, uh, who says, yeah, I believe in 394 00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:27,610 S1: the miraculous, but I've seen so much fraud, you know, 395 00:21:28,130 --> 00:21:30,850 S1: people saying one thing and you deal with with some 396 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,920 S1: of that again. The film comes out December 1515 through 397 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,159 S1: the 18. But the the other aspect of this is 398 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:44,480 S1: that there is so much anti supernatural perspective going on 399 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,480 S1: in the culture that says science is here, and then 400 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,240 S1: this supernatural stuff is over here and you can't mix that. 401 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,960 S1: You can't believe in science and miracles. 402 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,840 S2: Yeah, you get that. And you know, I think of 403 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,239 S2: the woman that wrote into skeptic magazine and said she 404 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,000 S2: was a medical doctor. She said, what would it take 405 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,480 S2: for me to believe a miracle had taken place? Well, 406 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,840 S2: she said, if a chicken learned how to read and 407 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,080 S2: then beat a grandmaster at chess, maybe I'd start to 408 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,680 S2: think something miraculous was going on. And I'm thinking, that's ridiculous. 409 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:22,480 S2: That's setting the bar unrealistically, ridiculously high. Um, I think 410 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,000 S2: when we see these things that, as I say, are 411 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,440 S2: well documented, that have no natural explanation, multiple eyewitnesses who 412 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,640 S2: have no motive to deceive. That's sufficient for me to 413 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,160 S2: realize that something's going on supernaturally, especially when you look 414 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,800 S2: at modern science. And this is discoveries just over the 415 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,320 S2: last few decades that we know now. The universe began 416 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,760 S2: to exist at some point in the past. Well, whatever 417 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,800 S2: begins to exist has a cause behind it. Therefore, there 418 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,920 S2: must be a cause behind the universe. And what kind 419 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,320 S2: of a cause can bring the universe into existence? Uh, well, 420 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,119 S2: you can extract from that certain characteristics. It must be true. 421 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,200 S2: It must be transcendent or separate from creation. He must 422 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,919 S2: be spirit or immaterial because he existed before the physical world, 423 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,440 S2: must be eternal because he existed before time came into being, 424 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,440 S2: must be powerful, must be smart, must be personal because 425 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,680 S2: he had to make the decision to create, must be 426 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,320 S2: loving because he created such a habitat for us. Must 427 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,440 S2: be unique. Because, um, the the scientific law of Occam's 428 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,479 S2: razor said there would be just one creator. Well, all 429 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,119 S2: of a sudden that's a description of the God of 430 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,590 S2: the Bible. So I think we have good scientific reasons 431 00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:34,590 S2: for believing that there is a supernatural creator. The origin 432 00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:36,790 S2: of the universe, the fine tuning of the universe, the 433 00:23:36,790 --> 00:23:41,550 S2: information and DNA. And based on that, for God to 434 00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:45,030 S2: reach in and do a miracle to heal someone. Come on, 435 00:23:45,030 --> 00:23:48,590 S2: that's child's play compared to creating the entire cosmos. 436 00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:52,350 S1: Exactly. And the other thing about this film is there's 437 00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:55,310 S1: a fellow named Hugh Ross who makes an appearance in it. 438 00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:58,149 S1: And I remember having Hugh Ross on this program years 439 00:23:58,150 --> 00:24:01,190 S1: and years ago. He looks the same, if not younger. 440 00:24:01,230 --> 00:24:04,110 S1: Now how what is he? Is it the fountain of 441 00:24:04,109 --> 00:24:05,350 S1: youth that he's found? 442 00:24:05,790 --> 00:24:08,870 S2: I think maybe he's still. Yeah, he's getting up there 443 00:24:08,869 --> 00:24:10,750 S2: in years, but he looks like a youngster. He's got 444 00:24:10,750 --> 00:24:15,470 S2: a PhD in astrophysics from the University of Toronto. And, um, 445 00:24:15,869 --> 00:24:19,990 S2: is just so articulate at describing that there is no 446 00:24:20,030 --> 00:24:24,270 S2: mathematical probability whatsoever that the universe could have come into 447 00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:28,939 S2: existence without a cause, a supernatural cause, and he documents 448 00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:32,180 S2: that in the movie and in his writings. He's written 449 00:24:32,180 --> 00:24:36,020 S2: several books about it. Uh, and I think he's right. Yeah. 450 00:24:36,340 --> 00:24:38,619 S1: Lee Strobel is with us today. I'm going to I'm 451 00:24:38,619 --> 00:24:42,540 S1: going to surprise Lee with something from this program that 452 00:24:42,540 --> 00:24:45,300 S1: happened two years ago. In our next segment, I want 453 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,060 S1: you to hear this, Lee, and respond to it. And, friend, 454 00:24:48,060 --> 00:24:49,980 S1: I want you to hear it as well. But write 455 00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:53,900 S1: down on your calendar December 15 to 18 The Case 456 00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:57,020 S1: for miracles. The book has been out for a few months, 457 00:24:57,420 --> 00:24:59,860 S1: and now the film is coming out just in that 458 00:24:59,859 --> 00:25:02,900 S1: short window. December 15 to 18. We have a link 459 00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:07,660 S1: right there at Kris Livorno, where you can actually get 460 00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:10,500 S1: tickets to that and hear what Lee is saying, not 461 00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:14,060 S1: only for your encouragement, but maybe for somebody who's a 462 00:25:14,060 --> 00:25:17,260 S1: little bit skeptical about the faith and about who God 463 00:25:17,260 --> 00:25:22,100 S1: really is. The case for miracles in the theaters, December 464 00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:26,540 S1: 15 to 18. Go to Chris Fabry lives Livorno. There 465 00:25:26,540 --> 00:25:30,260 S1: is a quote from the film that comes up several times, 466 00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:34,100 S1: and it is this surrender is not the same as 467 00:25:34,100 --> 00:25:36,740 S1: giving up. And I want Lee to talk about that 468 00:25:36,740 --> 00:25:40,060 S1: when we come back, and to hear the conversation we 469 00:25:40,060 --> 00:25:43,260 S1: had two years ago on this program. And I'll open 470 00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:49,620 S1: the phone lines. You want to talk with Lee Strobel? (877) 548-3675. 471 00:25:49,660 --> 00:26:05,419 S1: More straight ahead. This is Chris Faber live. We are 472 00:26:05,420 --> 00:26:09,540 S1: talking about miracles with Lee Strobel. The people at Carenet 473 00:26:09,580 --> 00:26:12,700 S1: know the value of each unborn life, and they are 474 00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:16,139 S1: committed not only to helping women and men choose life 475 00:26:16,140 --> 00:26:20,100 S1: after an unexpected pregnancy. They are all about helping those 476 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,780 S1: people discover eternal life. And if you go to Chris. 477 00:26:23,930 --> 00:26:27,690 S1: Fabry live and click the Green Connect link, you will 478 00:26:27,730 --> 00:26:31,090 S1: be encouraged by their free devotional that they're offering right now. 479 00:26:31,090 --> 00:26:34,810 S1: Praying through advent. This might be the very thing you 480 00:26:34,810 --> 00:26:37,850 S1: need with all the hustle and bustle, the treadmill that 481 00:26:37,850 --> 00:26:40,730 S1: we get on between now and Christmas now, the end 482 00:26:40,730 --> 00:26:45,210 S1: of the year to slow down, to see God's provision. 483 00:26:45,250 --> 00:26:49,610 S1: The miracle of the birth of His Son, the incarnation 484 00:26:49,930 --> 00:26:54,530 S1: of the Messiah. This devotional will remind you God meets 485 00:26:54,530 --> 00:26:56,570 S1: you right there in the middle of your uncertainty. You 486 00:26:56,609 --> 00:26:59,090 S1: got any of that today? In the middle of your doubt, 487 00:26:59,090 --> 00:27:02,650 S1: in your anxious moments, and he wants to write redemption 488 00:27:02,650 --> 00:27:07,370 S1: into your story. Experience the wonder of God's greatest story, 489 00:27:07,369 --> 00:27:10,530 S1: the miracle birth of the Savior, and you'll join in 490 00:27:10,530 --> 00:27:14,330 S1: praying for life and hope through him. Click the Green 491 00:27:14,330 --> 00:27:20,410 S1: Connect link at Chris lives and download praying through advent. 492 00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:24,679 S1: Chris Fabry lives Oh, where you'll also find out about 493 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,960 S1: Lee Strobel. We've talked about the case for miracles here 494 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,200 S1: before on the program. Now, the film is coming out 495 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,919 S1: in less than a month, December 15 to 18. You 496 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,080 S1: can find out more about that. Sheldon is on the 497 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,440 S1: line for you, Lee. Sheldon, what did you want to 498 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:40,600 S1: say to Lee Strobel? 499 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,520 S4: First of all, it's an honor to speak to you, Lee, 500 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,440 S4: and it's an honor to speak to you, Chris. Honor. Honor. Honor. 501 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,879 S4: And I can't wait to see you guys in heaven 502 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,280 S4: one day. It's going to be awesome. 503 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,240 S2: We'll hang out. 504 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,240 S4: With Johnny running by and the whole nine yards. Um, 505 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,439 S4: I have a young friend. He's 18 years old, and 506 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,560 S4: he believes. He believes I've. I don't think I've convinced him. 507 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,360 S4: The Holy Spirit has convinced him on all the benefits 508 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,080 S4: of Christianity. He just thinks Jesus was a rabbi. And 509 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,960 S4: what about Muslims? And what about Zoroastrianism and all of 510 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,879 S4: that type of stuff? And every time I try to 511 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,119 S4: corner him, he runs. I'm done. He just has to 512 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,270 S4: make the decision. What say you? 513 00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:27,470 S2: Well, you know, if Christianity is true, and I think 514 00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:30,270 S2: there's good historical data that Jesus not only claimed to 515 00:28:30,270 --> 00:28:32,830 S2: be the Son of God, but backed up that claim 516 00:28:32,830 --> 00:28:35,830 S2: by returning from the dead. Uh, if that is true, 517 00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:40,990 S2: then every other faith system is false. Uh, you know, 518 00:28:41,030 --> 00:28:43,230 S2: when I did my investigation as an atheist, I read 519 00:28:43,230 --> 00:28:46,190 S2: the Koran. And there are three things I noticed in 520 00:28:46,190 --> 00:28:50,030 S2: the Koran that specifically deny things you have to believe 521 00:28:50,030 --> 00:28:53,150 S2: to be a Christian. So in Surah four, verse 157, 522 00:28:53,150 --> 00:28:56,750 S2: it says, Jesus, uh, was not he did not die 523 00:28:56,750 --> 00:29:00,150 S2: on the cross, so there's no resurrection. Uh, secondly, it 524 00:29:00,150 --> 00:29:02,870 S2: says that God does not have a son. Third, it 525 00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:06,630 S2: says that no one can bear the sins of another. Well, uh, 526 00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:09,350 S2: that cannot be true. And the Bible true at the 527 00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:12,750 S2: same time. Either either one of them is true, or 528 00:29:12,990 --> 00:29:16,070 S2: both of them are false. I believe there's good historical 529 00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:20,510 S2: data and scientific underpinnings to be convinced that Christianity is true. 530 00:29:21,070 --> 00:29:26,030 S2: And if it is, then by just the contrast, other 531 00:29:26,030 --> 00:29:29,630 S2: religions cannot be true. So I encourage people to say, 532 00:29:29,670 --> 00:29:33,670 S2: you know, investigate whether Christianity's claims are backed up by 533 00:29:33,670 --> 00:29:35,830 S2: science and history. I did a book a couple of 534 00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:38,790 S2: years ago called Is God Real? It just came out 535 00:29:38,790 --> 00:29:41,830 S2: with a student edition called Is God Real for teens? 536 00:29:42,110 --> 00:29:46,709 S2: And it lays out A to Z. The evidence from science, 537 00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:49,550 S2: the arguments from philosophy, and the evidence from history in 538 00:29:49,550 --> 00:29:54,950 S2: a very accessible way, showing that Christianity is true. Therefore, 539 00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:57,430 S2: every other faith system cannot be true. 540 00:29:58,950 --> 00:30:01,790 S1: What would you say then, Lee, to some? First of all, 541 00:30:01,950 --> 00:30:04,510 S1: God bless you, Sheldon, for being there for that 18 542 00:30:04,550 --> 00:30:07,990 S1: year old young man. Um, the thing that's rolling around 543 00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:11,830 S1: my soul is this is this is you got to 544 00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:14,510 S1: take this slow. He's got to be ready. And it 545 00:30:14,510 --> 00:30:18,190 S1: sounds like Sheldon is waiting on him. You can't force him. 546 00:30:18,190 --> 00:30:20,580 S1: You him. He can't push him. You can keep praying 547 00:30:20,580 --> 00:30:22,940 S1: because that's what happened to you, Lee. It took you 548 00:30:22,940 --> 00:30:25,420 S1: a long time between when you heard the truth and 549 00:30:25,420 --> 00:30:26,500 S1: when you responded. 550 00:30:27,060 --> 00:30:29,820 S2: It took me two years. And so, you know one thing. 551 00:30:29,860 --> 00:30:31,780 S2: Here's a suggestion. You know what you can say to him? 552 00:30:31,780 --> 00:30:33,900 S2: You say, hey, you know what? The other day, I 553 00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:37,060 S2: was talking to a guy who used to be an atheist, 554 00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:39,940 S2: and he told me how it is that he became 555 00:30:39,940 --> 00:30:43,020 S2: a Christian and how he investigated the evidence for the 556 00:30:43,020 --> 00:30:46,780 S2: faith and became convinced. It's true. Would you be interested 557 00:30:46,780 --> 00:30:49,940 S2: in the kind of evidence that he found convincing? And 558 00:30:49,940 --> 00:30:53,380 S2: if he's at all expresses curiosity about it, give him 559 00:30:53,380 --> 00:30:56,460 S2: the book. Or, you know, our movie, The Case for 560 00:30:56,460 --> 00:31:00,660 S2: Christ movie is still available on, uh. It's off Netflix now, 561 00:31:00,660 --> 00:31:04,220 S2: but it's on Amazon Prime. And so if he likes 562 00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:07,140 S2: movies more than books, I think that film really presents 563 00:31:07,140 --> 00:31:10,060 S2: the evidence well as well. So, you know, you might 564 00:31:10,060 --> 00:31:13,220 S2: use this, our conversation right now as an opportunity to say, hey, 565 00:31:13,220 --> 00:31:15,580 S2: by the way, just talk to a guy. He became 566 00:31:15,580 --> 00:31:18,650 S2: convinced this is true. Through? Yes. Would you be open. 567 00:31:19,210 --> 00:31:23,130 S1: And keep praying and and enlist others on how all 568 00:31:23,170 --> 00:31:25,890 S1: that works? I don't know if it was the 457th 569 00:31:25,890 --> 00:31:29,330 S1: person praying for Barbara that we you know, I don't 570 00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:31,730 S1: know how that works, but I do believe that there's 571 00:31:31,730 --> 00:31:36,610 S1: power in United prayer. So, uh, Sheldon, thanks for your 572 00:31:36,610 --> 00:31:40,090 S1: call today. I want to play this. This happened two 573 00:31:40,090 --> 00:31:45,290 S1: years ago. Uh, Heather Holdsworth is an author and artist 574 00:31:45,290 --> 00:31:50,130 S1: from Scotland, and she studied at Moody Theological Seminary, studied 575 00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:55,010 S1: at a seminary in Edinburgh. And two years ago, she 576 00:31:55,010 --> 00:31:57,050 S1: joined us. She was talking about this book that she 577 00:31:57,050 --> 00:32:00,890 S1: had written about the Psalms and illustrated landscape of Hope. 578 00:32:01,530 --> 00:32:03,650 S1: But in the middle of this it was she was 579 00:32:03,650 --> 00:32:06,890 S1: in the studio and it kind of caught me by surprise. 580 00:32:06,890 --> 00:32:09,250 S1: And I said, would you tell this story? And she said, okay, 581 00:32:09,730 --> 00:32:13,969 S1: she had contracted long Covid. She didn't even know if 582 00:32:13,970 --> 00:32:17,890 S1: she'd be able to come to Chicago, you know, in 583 00:32:17,930 --> 00:32:20,690 S1: making her plans, because she wasn't able to navigate all 584 00:32:20,690 --> 00:32:25,010 S1: the stuff with the airplanes and and the airport. But 585 00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:28,850 S1: here is what Heather had, she said happened to her. 586 00:32:29,210 --> 00:32:31,370 S5: I'd started to get a little bit better, but I 587 00:32:31,370 --> 00:32:34,850 S5: still wasn't able to walk very far, like 20 yards. 588 00:32:34,850 --> 00:32:37,650 S5: And then I'd have to stop and and then recover 589 00:32:37,650 --> 00:32:40,450 S5: and then go on. I couldn't peel a carrot or 590 00:32:40,490 --> 00:32:43,010 S5: I know that that's not really the measure of health, 591 00:32:43,010 --> 00:32:44,570 S5: but but I could a big one. 592 00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:44,850 S1: That's a. 593 00:32:44,850 --> 00:32:47,250 S5: Big thing. I couldn't do that or stand long enough 594 00:32:47,250 --> 00:32:49,969 S5: for the kettle to boil. So, um. But I tried 595 00:32:49,970 --> 00:32:52,130 S5: to get better. You know, I was going into the 596 00:32:52,130 --> 00:32:55,770 S5: North Sea to try and help myself get more energy, 597 00:32:55,770 --> 00:32:58,810 S5: but I was still very poorly. Yeah. And then on 598 00:32:58,810 --> 00:33:01,210 S5: February the 9th, I went along to a conference. Just 599 00:33:01,210 --> 00:33:05,450 S5: an ordinary conference, a refreshment and encouragement conference for those 600 00:33:05,450 --> 00:33:09,330 S5: involved in church ministry. Um, I sat next to a 601 00:33:09,330 --> 00:33:12,250 S5: man who who led an outdoor centre up in the 602 00:33:12,250 --> 00:33:15,880 S5: Highlands of Scotland, up in the hills And, uh, he 603 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,000 S5: he was telling me about the burden he had for 604 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,600 S5: his town and spoke about revival. And I said, do 605 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,720 S5: you know, my mom was saved in a revival up 606 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,800 S5: in the north of Scotland? And he said, oh, what 607 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,760 S5: was your mum's name? So I said, oh, it's Mary Peckham. 608 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,800 S5: And he said, wait. I asked my whole team to 609 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,720 S5: to listen to her testimony two days ago. So as 610 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,120 S5: we continued to speak, I thought, oh, the Lord's really 611 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,160 S5: in this conversation. And then, um, he asked me where 612 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,480 S5: I'd parked and I said, oh, I've got a disabled badge. 613 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,520 S5: And so I'm, I'm yeah, I'm I'm fine. I'm just 614 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,840 S5: able to just just park anywhere. And so then he said, um, well, 615 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,960 S5: can we, can I pray for you? Yeah. When he 616 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,280 S5: wanted to pray for me. So, um, he prayed for 617 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,800 S5: me and I prayed for him. And then he stood 618 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,280 S5: up as other people around the room were standing, and 619 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,120 S5: he stood up and he said he looked down at 620 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,319 S5: me and he said, when Peter saw the man at 621 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,070 S5: the gate who couldn't walk, he said. Silver and gold 622 00:34:14,070 --> 00:34:16,469 S5: I don't have. But what I have, I give to 623 00:34:16,469 --> 00:34:19,710 S5: you in the name of Jesus Christ, stand up and walk. 624 00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:22,710 S5: And then he put out his hand and he said, so, Heather, 625 00:34:22,989 --> 00:34:26,350 S5: in the name of Jesus Christ, stand up and walk. 626 00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:29,150 S5: And so I gripped his hand, and I stood up. 627 00:34:29,310 --> 00:34:33,230 S5: And in that instant, in that absolute instant, the Lord, 628 00:34:33,670 --> 00:34:37,270 S5: the Lord healed me. And and the doctor has been 629 00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:40,750 S5: calling it a miracle. And the speech therapist, who I 630 00:34:40,750 --> 00:34:42,910 S5: was going to because I lost my voice so much, 631 00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:46,430 S5: she's called it impossible. And all around our town, people 632 00:34:46,430 --> 00:34:48,870 S5: who'd helped me into the sea and helped me out, 633 00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:51,989 S5: they've been saying, what is going on, what has happened? 634 00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:55,910 S5: And I've been able to say, well, it's almost like 635 00:34:55,910 --> 00:34:57,910 S5: the blind man, you know, all. One thing I know, 636 00:34:57,950 --> 00:35:01,110 S5: I was blind and now I see and I just 637 00:35:01,150 --> 00:35:03,310 S5: had to say, well, one thing I know, I, I 638 00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:08,310 S5: had long Covid and now God has taken that away. Um, 639 00:35:08,430 --> 00:35:12,460 S5: and so it's been a miraculous, Miraculous time. 640 00:35:13,180 --> 00:35:14,660 S1: Lee. What do you say about that? 641 00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:17,420 S2: I think it's a miracle of God. I mean, it 642 00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:19,180 S2: sounds like it to me. How do you explain the 643 00:35:19,180 --> 00:35:23,420 S2: instantaneous heating, the way that happened in a spiritual context 644 00:35:23,420 --> 00:35:27,140 S2: where she now is restored to health? I mean, it 645 00:35:27,180 --> 00:35:28,860 S2: reminds me of a story that we did for the 646 00:35:28,860 --> 00:35:30,859 S2: movie that actually didn't get into the movie. It's in 647 00:35:30,860 --> 00:35:34,939 S2: my book about Chris Gunderson. Chris was born with his 648 00:35:34,940 --> 00:35:39,819 S2: stomach paralyzed, called gastroparesis. It's an incurable condition. Nobody's ever 649 00:35:39,820 --> 00:35:42,420 S2: been cured of it. Um, so as a baby, they 650 00:35:42,420 --> 00:35:45,700 S2: had to do surgery and put tubes in his abdomen 651 00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:48,420 S2: so they could feed him through the tubes. And he 652 00:35:48,420 --> 00:35:50,379 S2: grew up that way. Got to be 16 years old, 653 00:35:50,420 --> 00:35:52,500 S2: never ate anything in his life. And all the food 654 00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:55,979 S2: went into his intestine directly through these tubes. So his 655 00:35:55,980 --> 00:35:57,580 S2: parents brought him to a church one day, and the 656 00:35:57,580 --> 00:35:59,740 S2: pastor got up and told the story just like that, 657 00:35:59,739 --> 00:36:02,419 S2: about how he had been healed of something. And so 658 00:36:02,420 --> 00:36:04,620 S2: the parents took Chris up and said, hey, would you 659 00:36:04,620 --> 00:36:07,060 S2: pray for our son? He's got his stomach is paralyzed. 660 00:36:07,060 --> 00:36:09,219 S2: He can't eat. He has to be fed through these tubes. 661 00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:11,580 S2: So he said, okay. So he put his hand on 662 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:13,940 S2: his shoulder and began to pray. And Chris told me, 663 00:36:13,940 --> 00:36:16,460 S2: he said Lee. The minute he began praying, I felt 664 00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:19,859 S2: like an electric shock went through my body and he 665 00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:23,580 S2: was instantly healed. The only person in history of gastroparesis. 666 00:36:23,580 --> 00:36:26,540 S2: His stomach was restored. He went out that day, that 667 00:36:26,540 --> 00:36:28,900 S2: same day and had his first meal. He had a 668 00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:33,020 S2: Chinese dinner with egg rolls and everything and he went 669 00:36:33,020 --> 00:36:36,020 S2: to the doctor. They did the surgery to remove the tubes. 670 00:36:36,020 --> 00:36:38,259 S2: They said, you're healed. And in fact, he pulled up 671 00:36:38,260 --> 00:36:41,259 S2: his shirt and showed me the scars on his stomach. Well, 672 00:36:41,260 --> 00:36:45,380 S2: his case was documented by multiple medical researchers and published 673 00:36:45,380 --> 00:36:48,100 S2: in a peer reviewed medical journal. This is a well 674 00:36:48,180 --> 00:36:51,299 S2: documented case that I like her case. How do you 675 00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:55,540 S2: explain that? What what other explanation makes sense other than 676 00:36:55,739 --> 00:36:58,740 S2: God reached in and did the miraculous? Yes. 677 00:36:59,180 --> 00:37:02,820 S1: So you so you got Barbara. You've got, uh, Chris Gunderson. 678 00:37:02,820 --> 00:37:05,460 S1: Is that his name that you said? Yeah, Barbara, you 679 00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:08,420 S1: got Chris, you got Heather that I just played. But 680 00:37:08,420 --> 00:37:11,330 S1: then you've got your wife, Leslie, who for 20 years 681 00:37:11,370 --> 00:37:14,410 S1: is like, well, how do you make sense of that? 682 00:37:14,450 --> 00:37:16,450 S1: Let me take our final break. We'll come back. Lee 683 00:37:16,450 --> 00:37:20,770 S1: Strobel is with us at the radio backyard fence. And, uh, 684 00:37:21,170 --> 00:37:24,370 S1: the case for miracles is a film. I've seen it. 685 00:37:24,730 --> 00:37:28,570 S1: Bring your own tissues. Lee provides these stories. It comes 686 00:37:28,570 --> 00:37:32,250 S1: out December 15th through 18. We have a link to 687 00:37:32,290 --> 00:37:35,570 S1: that film as well as the book at Chris Fabry Live. 688 00:37:47,610 --> 00:37:49,850 S1: It's really interesting how a lot of these programs that 689 00:37:49,850 --> 00:37:52,890 S1: we do will feed into another, because I was telling 690 00:37:52,930 --> 00:37:55,330 S1: Lee that in the last week or so, we've talked 691 00:37:55,330 --> 00:37:59,250 S1: about what what is surrender really and what is it not. 692 00:37:59,530 --> 00:38:02,009 S1: We're going to talk about that quote from the film. 693 00:38:02,170 --> 00:38:05,450 S1: And tomorrow you brought up empathy. Tomorrow we're going to 694 00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:10,080 S1: talk about men and empathy with a couple. The man 695 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,680 S1: had no empathy whatsoever. And you asked the question, you know, 696 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,160 S1: is that something you can learn? Can you can men 697 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,239 S1: learn empathy because you think women are usually a little 698 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,399 S1: more empathetic than men on on average. But there are 699 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,759 S1: some men that just really have a hard time empathizing. 700 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,919 S1: And so that's the conversation tomorrow. Don't you dare miss 701 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,160 S1: it if you go to the website. Chris, the case 702 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,479 S1: for miracles, we have the book link as well as 703 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,120 S1: the film coming out December 15 to 18. How do 704 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,040 S1: you answer that question about Leslie? She's had this for 705 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,480 S1: 20 years, and and Barbara has a miracle. Heather has 706 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,600 S1: a miracle, but not Leslie. Why? 707 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,640 S2: Yeah. I mean, surrender is not the same as giving up. 708 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,520 S2: That's kind of a line from the film. And what 709 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,279 S2: we mean by that is surrender is to acknowledge that 710 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,080 S2: God is sovereign. God will do as God will do. 711 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,759 S2: He is all good. He is all knowing. He is 712 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,120 S2: all benevolent And what he does. Ultimately, we will recognize 713 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,239 S2: as the very best thing that he could have done 714 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,920 S2: in our lives, and that he will use the difficulties 715 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,360 S2: we have for our good. And, uh, you know, so 716 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,760 S2: surrender is more of a bowing to his superior, his 717 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,920 S2: superior being. He created us. We are, um, subservient to him. 718 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,680 S2: And he loves us and we love him. Um, it's 719 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,400 S2: not giving up unless he's never given up. She's always prayed, God, 720 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,160 S2: if it's your will, please heal me. But if not, 721 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,640 S2: then use me to relate to other people who are 722 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,359 S2: who are ill. That I might be a beacon of 723 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,080 S2: hope to them. And we could, uh, connect and use 724 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,120 S2: the word empathy to empathize and, and, uh, encourage each other. So, um, 725 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,000 S2: I just, uh, the Leslie I know today, after 53 726 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,439 S2: years of marriage and having gone through this whole health 727 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,440 S2: thing with her, um, is not the same Leslie that 728 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,839 S2: would have been had she not gone through this difficulty. 729 00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:09,270 S2: She's a more godly person, a more empathetic and compassionate person. 730 00:40:09,270 --> 00:40:10,390 S2: I think as a result. 731 00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:13,150 S1: You know what I hear through that? That surrender is 732 00:40:13,150 --> 00:40:15,469 S1: not the same as giving up is the same thing 733 00:40:15,469 --> 00:40:19,189 S1: that faith is. Faith is not a leap in the dark. 734 00:40:19,230 --> 00:40:24,310 S1: Faith is placing your trust in the evidence that you find. Yes. 735 00:40:24,350 --> 00:40:28,350 S1: And that's revealed to us in the scriptures. And you know, 736 00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:30,910 S1: the heavens declare the glory of God, right? 737 00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:33,150 S2: Right. Exactly. Yeah. 738 00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:36,150 S1: George is in Tennessee. George, why'd you call today? 739 00:40:37,230 --> 00:40:39,469 S6: Well, let me get off speaker. Hold on a second. 740 00:40:39,989 --> 00:40:41,670 S1: All right, we will. Hang on. 741 00:40:42,350 --> 00:40:45,470 S6: Okay. Hey, I'm ready now. Um. Hey, George. Hey. First off, 742 00:40:45,870 --> 00:40:47,670 S6: thanks so much for what you guys have done over 743 00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:51,750 S6: the years. It's been a joy and a blessing. Something 744 00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:56,589 S6: I came across in talking about the the resurrection. Um, 745 00:40:57,190 --> 00:41:02,670 S6: quick summary. I back about 2012, I came across actually 746 00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:06,180 S6: a friend of mine's uncle was involved in some what 747 00:41:06,180 --> 00:41:09,140 S6: sounded like, you know, two too good to be true. 748 00:41:09,180 --> 00:41:12,660 S6: Too amazing. It was like a modern Indiana Jones this 749 00:41:12,660 --> 00:41:16,580 S6: guy claimed to have in three years validated the real 750 00:41:16,580 --> 00:41:19,259 S6: Noah's Ark. Went on to find the Sodom and Gomorrah, 751 00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:23,100 S6: the Red sea crossing and Mount Sinai and split rock 752 00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:28,020 S6: and and wasn't really looking for the Ark of the covenant. 753 00:41:28,020 --> 00:41:30,540 S6: But probably to my knowledge, that takes a little bit 754 00:41:30,540 --> 00:41:33,700 S6: of faith to investigate everything else. Everything else is rock solid, 755 00:41:34,820 --> 00:41:39,620 S6: but there's you steady into it there. Actually, there's claims 756 00:41:39,620 --> 00:41:43,540 S6: of actually even, uh, found some of the blood samples 757 00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:47,620 S6: that go from where the cross scene is. It falls 758 00:41:47,620 --> 00:41:50,460 S6: off into the Arctic, onto the Ark of the covenant 759 00:41:50,460 --> 00:41:53,020 S6: that Jeremiah put there 600 years earlier. So it sounds 760 00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:56,660 S6: too good to be true or just too, too amazing. 761 00:41:56,660 --> 00:42:00,220 S6: But for all the listeners, take time to investigate, because 762 00:42:00,219 --> 00:42:02,820 S6: I came in doubting this, saying, this can't be true. 763 00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:06,620 S6: And yet I can't find holes in after 13 years 764 00:42:06,620 --> 00:42:08,779 S6: of looking. Um, so. 765 00:42:08,820 --> 00:42:11,140 S2: You're saying the blood was what? 766 00:42:12,260 --> 00:42:15,380 S6: Well, first off, the, uh, the blood. Actually, at the 767 00:42:15,380 --> 00:42:18,380 S6: crucifixion site, there's a split in the rock that comes 768 00:42:18,380 --> 00:42:21,980 S6: down there. And about 100 yards off the Garden Tomb area. 769 00:42:22,739 --> 00:42:26,420 S6: I have a good friend who's, uh, as part of 770 00:42:26,420 --> 00:42:29,140 S6: his ministry, but he's over there with a gold detector 771 00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:32,580 S6: in 36 times out of 36 times when he's in 772 00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:35,379 S6: that area, right in front of where the split where 773 00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:40,379 S6: the split comes down between three, they're like small billboards 774 00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:42,580 S6: that they would. It was a crucifixion site with four 775 00:42:42,580 --> 00:42:46,180 S6: cross holes about 80 yards, 90 yards off the main 776 00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:49,940 S6: road coming in. So our artists are good, but Jesus 777 00:42:49,940 --> 00:42:52,700 S6: is not really crucified on top of Golgotha on this side. 778 00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:55,540 S1: Okay, George, I'm going to jump in because we're running 779 00:42:55,540 --> 00:42:57,939 S1: out of time. Yeah, but, Lee, I mean, go ahead. 780 00:42:58,260 --> 00:42:58,660 S1: Jump in there. 781 00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:00,739 S2: I've never heard of that, so I can't comment on 782 00:43:00,810 --> 00:43:04,770 S2: it specifically, but, um, you know, they're not scientists are 783 00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:08,489 S2: not quite sure exactly where the crucifixion took place to 784 00:43:08,530 --> 00:43:11,609 S2: that kind of specificity. So I'd be curious what the 785 00:43:11,610 --> 00:43:15,330 S2: documentation is. Is anything published in peer reviewed journals of 786 00:43:15,330 --> 00:43:18,290 S2: of antiquity or whatever? But I think we have sufficient 787 00:43:18,330 --> 00:43:22,370 S2: historical data that that points toward the resurrection of Jesus 788 00:43:22,370 --> 00:43:25,330 S2: being true and the crucifixion being true. Even the Journal 789 00:43:25,330 --> 00:43:29,209 S2: of the American Medical Association published an article that said 790 00:43:29,210 --> 00:43:33,010 S2: that Jesus was clearly dead after being crucified, even before 791 00:43:33,010 --> 00:43:35,489 S2: the wound to his side was inflicted. So we've got 792 00:43:35,530 --> 00:43:39,210 S2: great data from history. That's enough to satisfy me that 793 00:43:39,210 --> 00:43:41,490 S2: Jesus claimed to be God and proved it by returning 794 00:43:41,489 --> 00:43:42,130 S2: from the dead. 795 00:43:42,570 --> 00:43:45,650 S1: George, thanks for your call. One final question for you, Lee. 796 00:43:45,890 --> 00:43:50,330 S1: Miracles as you look at them, are they evenly distributed 797 00:43:50,330 --> 00:43:51,569 S1: throughout the globe? 798 00:43:52,410 --> 00:43:56,089 S2: And there's a there's a lot around the world, but 799 00:43:56,090 --> 00:43:59,250 S2: I think they do cluster and they cluster in areas 800 00:43:59,250 --> 00:44:02,080 S2: of the globe where the gospel is just breaking in. 801 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,040 S2: Often that's more primitive areas where people can't even read 802 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,160 S2: the Bible, but they respond to something miraculous. And so 803 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,799 S2: some experts believe that up to 90% of the growth 804 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,879 S2: in the Church of China is because people themselves, or 805 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,920 S2: they know someone who's been supernaturally healed. Um, so there 806 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,279 S2: was a professor with a PhD from Harvard who's a 807 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,400 S2: professor at Indiana University, who we have in the movie, uh, 808 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,000 S2: doctor Candy Gunther Brown, who tested this. She sent a 809 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,279 S2: team to Mozambique where there was a cluster of miracles happening. 810 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,719 S2: They went to the bush area. They said, bring us 811 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,000 S2: all your deaf and blind. They then tested them scientifically. 812 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:38,759 S2: What is your level of vision? What is your level 813 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,640 S2: of hearing? They're immediately prayed for in the name of Jesus, 814 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,480 S2: and then they're immediately tested again. Is there any difference? 815 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,600 S2: And guess what they found? Everyone, to one degree or another, 816 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,759 S2: virtually everyone had improvement. In fact, get this the average 817 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,000 S2: improvement in visual acuity was tenfold. One woman, when they 818 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,589 S2: first met her couldn't hear the equivalent of a jackhammer 819 00:44:58,590 --> 00:45:01,469 S2: next door. Ten minutes later, after prayers in the name 820 00:45:01,469 --> 00:45:04,190 S2: of Jesus, she could hear normal conversations. Well, they were 821 00:45:04,190 --> 00:45:05,910 S2: so astounded by this, they said, let's see if we 822 00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:08,590 S2: can replicate it. They went to Brazil, where the gospel 823 00:45:08,590 --> 00:45:12,150 S2: is breaking into southern Brazil. Got the same results. Now 824 00:45:12,190 --> 00:45:16,430 S2: here's the thing. This is a scientifically rigorous investigation that 825 00:45:16,430 --> 00:45:20,590 S2: was accepted for publication in a secular, scientific, peer reviewed 826 00:45:20,590 --> 00:45:23,750 S2: medical journal, the The Southern Medical Journal, one of the 827 00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:26,709 S2: major medical journals in the United States. And in the movie, 828 00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:29,390 S2: you'll meet the woman that did that investigation. See some 829 00:45:29,390 --> 00:45:31,670 S2: of the footage from the actual prayers and things that 830 00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:35,670 S2: took place. And as she told me, she said, Lee, I, 831 00:45:36,030 --> 00:45:40,070 S2: I can't account for this. She she said, this isn't fakery. 832 00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:43,430 S2: It's not fraud. It's not some emotional atmosphere where people 833 00:45:43,430 --> 00:45:46,750 S2: think they're being healed, but they're not. Something is going on. 834 00:45:46,950 --> 00:45:51,710 S1: Yes. And the story about the little baby with meningitis. Well, 835 00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:54,790 S1: I won't tell you the whole story. The case for miracles. 836 00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:58,509 S1: The film comes out December 15th through 18. We have 837 00:45:58,510 --> 00:46:02,870 S1: information for you there at the website. chris.org. We have 838 00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:05,950 S1: the book linked as well. Lee it is always I 839 00:46:05,989 --> 00:46:10,190 S1: love your excitement, your energy and uh, you too. I 840 00:46:10,310 --> 00:46:13,910 S1: love what what God has done and is doing and 841 00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:16,629 S1: is going to do through you, in you and through you. 842 00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:18,550 S1: So come back and see us. Say hi to Leslie 843 00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:19,230 S1: for us, okay? 844 00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:21,830 S2: I will say hi to Andrea. God bless you guys 845 00:46:21,830 --> 00:46:22,790 S2: and all your listeners. 846 00:46:23,110 --> 00:46:25,750 S1: There he is. Lee Strobel, you've heard a little bit 847 00:46:25,750 --> 00:46:29,110 S1: of the stories about those miracles, even one that involved 848 00:46:29,110 --> 00:46:33,870 S1: Moody Radio. And the film comes out December 15 to 18. 849 00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:36,910 S1: Click through today's information right there at the website. Chris 850 00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:42,190 S1: Fabry Live tomorrow men and empathy. If you know a 851 00:46:42,190 --> 00:46:44,830 S1: man who's not empathetic, get him to listen to Chris 852 00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:48,350 S1: Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody 853 00:46:48,350 --> 00:46:49,550 S1: Bible Institute.