S1: Coming to you from the Morning Star Mission sponsored studio.
S1: This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
S2: You know, Easter Sunday now, just a couple weeks behind us.
S2: We're a few weeks removed from Easter Sunday. I had
S2: an opportunity to sing in our church's choir on Easter Sunday. Nice.
S2: You don't get a choir every week, but we do
S2: sometimes for special occasions. And so I love choir singing.
S2: I love singing in a choir. I love watching choir sing, sing.
S2: I just love everything about it.
S3: I love it.
S2: Harmonies. The the joining of voices together to praise the
S2: Lord is truly some of the most awesome in the very.
S2: The very essence of that word. Moments are just man like.
S2: Getting lost in worship in a choir.
S3: Makes me think just of eternity. Because, I mean, it's
S3: going to be choir forever of just joining, you know,
S3: and praises. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. I'm with you.
S2: So Easter Sunday I got there early. We they had
S2: the choir members get there around, I think it was
S2: 715 in the morning so that we could prep for
S2: the prep. There was going to be three services, and
S2: so we had to do the practice, getting up and
S2: off the risers and practice through our songs. And things
S2: were going well until we did our final walkthrough. And
S2: as I was climbing up the stairs to get onto
S2: the stage, the person behind me stepped on the back
S2: of my shoe. And so my shoe came off and
S2: I had to try to keep walking. So I grabbed.
S2: She handed me my shoe, I tried to slip my
S2: shoe back on, and then as I climbed up the riser,
S2: now on the stage, there was microphones hanging from the
S2: ceiling and I proceeded to, after getting my shoe back on,
S2: hit my head on the microphone and that's how I
S2: entered the stage. Thankfully, this was just a run through,
S2: but it was very embarrassing. I mean, I had one
S2: of those moments. Not for long. I got over it quickly,
S2: but I had one of those moments like, I look
S2: like an idiot.
S4: Well, and then it's the, the problem is. And this
S4: always seems to happen, is that when one thing happens, right,
S4: like three other things happen and it just compounds on itself.
S4: And I'm like.
S2: It really is. Have you ever seen those videos where
S2: somebody tripping and as they try to catch themselves, they
S2: continue to trip and it becomes like this.
S4: Continuously falling.
S2: Block long of like the almost fall? Yes. I'm curious
S2: to know when's the last time you felt really embarrassed
S2: by something?
S4: Good question.
S2: Text messages on this one. When's the last time something
S2: really embarrassed you? 855 five 7898 800 555 78. 98.
S4: I'll go. A little show based embarrassment. Oh, no. So
S4: these ones I. I am known for just saying yes
S4: to like everything. I'll just do stuff. Carl will go
S4: young Thunder do this. And and we didn't talk about
S4: it before, but I'll do it. And I have a
S4: lot of fun with it. The only one that genuinely
S4: embarrasses me. Oh, no. Is is creative. So like, Jonathan,
S4: make a song.
S2: Oh.
S4: And I'm like, make a song. What do you mean,
S4: make a song? And so my face gets all red.
S5: Your face does get red.
S4: Sometimes it feels like it's 100 degrees in this room.
S4: And I'm like, I can't. And everyone's gracious and lovely
S4: about it, but I'm like, what do you mean I'm
S4: not a creative person? I'll do it. If you give
S4: me clear directions, I will do it and feel no
S4: embarrassment about it. But if you ask me to create
S4: something and then share it with the world, no go.
S5: Feels super.
S2: Vulnerable, right?
S4: Oh yes. My chest cavities opened up for everybody to see.
S2: Diana, last time you felt embarrassed by something?
S3: Oh, yeah. About a month ago, I fell over my
S3: own foot. I need my own foot. My pair of jeans.
S3: I was wearing wide leg jeans. I went to step
S3: up on the curb. I my foot got caught in
S3: my jeans.
S4: You gotta watch out for those bellbottoms.
S3: Yeah. And then I'm trying to jump out and get you,
S3: and you're talking about, you know, the domino effect of falling. Yes. Well,
S3: that was causing me to fall anyways because I was
S3: in momentum of walking forward. So my toe got caught
S3: in my jeans. So as I'm trying to untangle that,
S3: I got it out. But then it hit the curb
S3: because I was close, too close to the curb. So
S3: then I stubbed over the curb. I mean, I went
S3: down hard, hard on the sidewalk, groceries, purse, everything everywhere.
S3: And I just sat there like, wow. And I just assessed, like,
S3: people are probably looking at me. I'm sure they are.
S2: I heard something recently that speaking of, someone said that
S2: the test of whether or not you're now considered old
S2: or young.
S4: Huh?
S3: Careful.
S2: No, no, no, I'm not going to ask you how
S2: how this test went for you. But this person told me,
S2: they said, you know, if you're old or young, based
S2: on how people respond when you fall, no one cares
S2: if you are. No no no no. If you are
S2: young and you fall.
S3: Okay.
S2: People will laugh at.
S4: You. Yes.
S2: If you are considered now older and you fall, people
S2: will look on in grave concern.
S4: Yes, they'll run you. Oh my goodness! Are you okay?
S2: So if you fall and people laugh at you, fear not.
S2: You're still young.
S3: What if they just walk by and don't do anything?
S2: Young. I think it's youth. When they. When people start
S2: to really express concern. That's how we know we're getting older.
S2: That's fair, because falls when you're older. And I've already
S2: experienced a fall when I as now, even at my age,
S2: where I was like this, you don't bounce back from falls.
S4: Yeah. You feel that one for a couple of days.
S2: Embarrassment is a funny thing because your body does have
S2: a very strong response that mirrors that sort of fight
S2: or flight of real danger. There is no danger other
S2: than your own reputation or the momentary feeling of people
S2: saw this, but that sort of the face turns red,
S2: the blushing, the heart rate increases. Sometimes there's sweating. There's
S2: physiological symptoms that mirror actual danger. Even though there is none.
S2: Isn't that fascinating?
S4: It is fascinating. I think it has to do with
S4: the level of vulnerability like we're talking about. It makes
S4: our bodies think that we're in some type of danger
S4: because of how vulnerable we feel.
S2: And the real danger is that we care what other
S2: people think. Yes. Because we don't usually get embarrassed when we've.
S2: We can laugh at ourselves when we do something kind
S2: of silly in private.
S3: For sure.
S2: But we don't necessarily feel embarrassed when we're alone.
S4: We actually kind of laugh to ourselves and say, good
S4: thing no one saw that.
S2: Exactly. Exactly.
S3: Exactly.
S2: I saved myself some embarrassment. Embarrassment is usually rooted in
S2: some fear of man. The feeling that other people's perception
S2: of me. It's pretty important to me. Coming up, we're
S2: going to look at how David viewed what other people
S2: thought of him. He danced before the Lord in such
S2: a way that his wife looked at him and said,
S2: do you really think a king should be acting like that?
S2: David's response is classic, classic. You got to borrow this
S2: one next time someone accuses you of doing a little
S2: too much. Just tell them what David did.
S1: She's a choreographer extraordinaire and everything is Greek to her.
S1: Super di is in the crew. It's Karl and crew
S1: on Moody Radio.
S2: Well, there was a song. I remember my kids coming
S2: home from kids church singing I will dance, I will
S2: sing to be mad for my king was how it started.
S2: And then there was a line that was puzzling. I'll
S2: become even more undignified than this. It's right out of
S2: second Samuel. Kind of an obscure passage, but this idea
S2: of becoming undignified. This is David saying this doctor, Ryan Cook,
S2: he's a professor here at Moody Theological Seminary. He also
S2: writes regularly for Today in The Word, which is a
S2: daily devotional. Maybe you're familiar with give us the context
S2: around this passage of Scripture in Second Samuel. What leads
S2: up to it? And then what causes David to say
S2: that he's going to become undignified?
S6: The story here is that David, very early on in
S6: his kingship, has decided to bring the Ark of the
S6: covenant back from obscurity into the center of Israel's worship
S6: again at the Tabernacle, and to bring it into Jerusalem.
S6: So the Ark of the covenant was part of the
S6: tabernacle that God had commanded Israel to create. And in
S6: order to worship him in the way that God wanted
S6: them to worship him. And the Ark of the covenant
S6: was a symbol of God's presence with Israel. It's often
S6: called like a footstool. If you think of a king
S6: sitting on a throne and you have the footstool there,
S6: that's like God's presence was in the Holy of Holies,
S6: and the ark was his footstool right in the Holy
S6: of Holies, in the Tabernacle. So it represented God's presence,
S6: but it also represented God's relationship with Israel, because inside
S6: the Ark of the covenant were the tablets of the law,
S6: which outlined right God's relationship with Israel and how that
S6: was supposed to be governed, and that had been neglected
S6: for 50 years. All through Saul's reign he seemed to
S6: not care about the Ark of the covenant. And one
S6: of David's first acts as king is, we're going to
S6: obey the Lord. We're going to bring this ark back
S6: to the center of our worship. So it's a time
S6: you could almost think of it as like a spiritual
S6: revival within Israel. And second Samuel six tells the story
S6: of this procession of David and the priest bringing the
S6: ark into Jerusalem this joyful time. And that brings us
S6: to to the passage that we're talking about.
S2: So this is second Samuel 614 And David danced before
S2: the Lord with all his might, and he's wearing a linen.
S2: Is it ephod? Is that how you say it? Yeah.
S2: And then when he gets to the home where his
S2: wife is, she's critical of what she has seen. This
S2: sort of just dancing before the Lord. I've heard some
S2: people say he sort of danced out of his clothes.
S2: Is that accurate?
S6: Yeah, I don't think so. Okay. Um, so David's wearing
S6: a linen outfit, which is sometimes associated with a priesthood,
S6: but it's also not the royal regalia. He's not dressed
S6: like a king. Okay. And so you wouldn't notice that
S6: normally you could tell a king by how they look immediately.
S6: But he's leading Israel in worship, and it talks about
S6: all these musical instruments that are used in it and
S6: dancing as a part of it. I kind of wonder
S6: if maybe David wrote a Psalm, particularly for this occasion.
S6: We don't know that for sure. But he's worshiping wholeheartedly
S6: with abandon before the Lord there. And I don't know
S6: if you've had times where you've been on like a
S6: spiritual high, and then you meet someone and they just
S6: say something that takes all the wind out of your sails.
S2: That's that's what happened here. That's what happened here.
S6: And interestingly, Michael was not there as a part of
S6: this worship celebration. As David comes home, the text says
S6: to bless his household. Michael comes out into the streets and.
S2: Michael is the name of his.
S6: Wife. Michael is the name of his wife. And she
S6: criticizes him for it and says, you know how the
S6: king has demeaned himself and the language that's used there is,
S6: she says, how the king has uncovered himself in verse 20.
S6: It doesn't mean that David took his clothes off. What
S6: she's getting at is that David has acted in a
S6: way that has demeaned the office of the King. David
S6: has acted in a way that was really way more
S6: humbling than a king should act. And interestingly, twice in
S6: this passage, the narrator calls Michael Saul's daughter, the daughter
S6: of Saul. And we always have to pay attention when
S6: the narrator tells us something. Why are they mentioning that
S6: back in verse 16 says Michael, the daughter of Saul,
S6: and then again in verse 20, and the tone here
S6: is she's saying, listen, David, I grew up in the
S6: royal household, right? I know how a king should act.
S2: Huh?
S6: But you're like a shepherd boy. You don't really know
S6: what you're doing, and the way that you're acting now
S6: is demeaning the office of the King. All these people
S6: are looking at you with contempt because of how you're
S6: expressing your emotion in that sort of thing, in such
S6: a public way. Not acting in playing the part of
S6: a king. So that's that's kind of the tone behind this. Yeah.
S7: So that takes us to.
S2: This passage of Scripture, this specific verse. Now, second Samuel 622,
S2: in response to his wife's sort of criticism, he says,
S2: I will make myself yet more contemptible than this. Some
S2: translations say undignified. He pushes back almost with like a
S2: you think you've seen. You haven't seen anything yet. If
S2: you think this was something, why did he respond this way?
S6: Yeah. So it's about perspective, right? And so David's saying
S6: I'm worshiping the Lord wholeheartedly with abandoned authentically, which is
S6: really a hallmark of David's life. You think of all
S6: the Psalms, even some of the stories in first and
S6: second Samuel. And what he's saying is I'm going to
S6: continue to act in that way. And you'll notice that
S6: there's a little bit of a translational issue. But in
S6: verse 22, in the ESV, he says, I will be
S6: abased in your eyes. In other words, I'm going to
S6: continue to demean myself in your perspective. But that's not
S6: really the perspective that I'm concerned about. If you go
S6: back just earlier, David says in verse 21, he says,
S6: it was before the Lord. In other words, I was
S6: worshiping before the Lord. I was more concerned about what
S6: he thought than about what the people were thinking or
S6: about what you're thinking.
S2: Wow.
S6: And so I'm going to continue to lean into this worship,
S6: and it's going to get even worse in your eyes.
S6: But before people really fear the Lord, they'll honor me.
S6: They'll know what's what's going on.
S2: Does Michael have a point here? I mean, is there
S2: any validity to what she's saying, or is she purely
S2: what's her motivation here in trying to reign David in?
S2: Is it her own embarrassment?
S6: I think what's motivating her is she was formed growing
S6: up in Saul's household, and so her standards for what's
S6: normal for a king are really coming from that, not from, say,
S6: the Torah or from from David himself. And in fact,
S6: that's why David responds to her in the way he
S6: does in verse 21. He says, it was before the
S6: Lord who chose me above your father. In other words,
S6: you're criticizing me for not acting like a king in
S6: a dignified way like your father did. Well, look what
S6: happened with your father. Yeah, that's. I'm not trying to
S6: model myself after him. I'm trying to model myself after
S6: following the Torah with that wholehearted devotion to the Lord that,
S6: like Deuteronomy, would call us to. To love the Lord
S6: our God with all our heart and all our soul
S6: and all our strength?
S2: Yeah. And so that's I guess, the final question is
S2: this made its way into a song. I'll become more
S2: undignified than this. I remember when my kids would sing it.
S2: It was usually accompanied by lots of dancing and, you know,
S2: it was kind of loud and wild. What's the takeaway
S2: of something like this?
S6: Yeah, I think we might feel a little bit removed
S6: from Michael's criticism, like none of us are kings trying
S6: to act in a dignified role. But I think there
S6: is a connection with, you know, we live in a
S6: very secular society and, you know, no one would think
S6: twice if an adult male jumped and shouted for joy
S6: if their team won the Super Bowl or something like that. Yeah,
S6: but if they acted as if God was real, if
S6: they gave themselves over to abandonment in worship wholeheartedly, they
S6: kind of look askance at them like, you're kind of weird.
S6: What's going on with that? And that can be tempting
S6: for us to sort of modify our relationship with God,
S6: at least publicly, how we present it so that we
S6: don't seem socially that weird. And what David here is saying,
S6: you know, what matters more than what people think is
S6: what the Lord thinks. And acting before him in a
S6: way that that really brings honor to the Lord. And
S6: I think that's something we can learn from the life
S6: of David.
S2: I love it, this passage of Scripture, if you want
S2: to look it up today, it's in second Samuel six.
S2: Read through the whole thing. It's a fascinating description there,
S2: but there's a lot there. Thank you to our guest,
S2: Doctor Ryan Cook, for joining us today. I want to
S2: point you to today in the word phenomenal resource. If
S2: you have not connected with this, you can get the emails.
S2: You can read it on the app. Just text the
S2: word today to 800 555 7898. Text today to 800
S2: 555 7898.
S1: Tune in whenever you like. Check out the podcast wherever
S1: you like to stream.
S2: It's amazing how often we have to kind of push
S2: through our own sense of wanting to appear dignified, wanting
S2: to kind of go with what seems appropriate for the moment.
S4: Sure.
S2: What? Not really wanting to push too far outside the box.
S2: And I mean, those impulses are strong, right?
S4: Oh, goodness. Yes.
S2: Like, have you ever even had a moment where, like you,
S2: you typically pray before a meal, but like everybody else,
S2: is sort of going and eating and like, you feel
S2: like in this moment, gosh, it feels kind of awkward
S2: to like, just stop and pray.
S4: Yeah.
S2: You know, and that's such a small thing.
S3: Oh, you do it at home, but you don't do
S3: it at the restaurant.
S2: But then you're like, why? Why is there a little
S2: barrier here?
S4: Yes.
S2: Like, why am I, in some subtle way, worried that
S2: people might think it's a little weird for me to
S2: just stop in the middle?
S4: Yeah.
S2: And pray. I mean, or maybe I'm the only one.
S4: Oh, no, of course you're not the only one. I mean,
S4: I've felt this way in, in even in church about, like,
S4: lifting my hands for worship. I it's not something I
S4: ever really did as a kid. I mean, I didn't
S4: I came to know Jesus about six years ago, but
S4: I grew up in the church, and I always thought
S4: raising your hands was a little weird. Now I feel
S4: called sometimes to raise my hands, but I get nervous
S4: about it. Or I'm like, I'm lifting my hands in
S4: front of people and they're gonna see me do that,
S4: and I get nervous about it. But I always feel
S4: like when I do it, I'm like, I'm in the
S4: presence of God right now, and it's just me and him,
S4: and I don't have to worry about if anybody's thinking
S4: something else.
S2: And I really love this conversation about David and his
S2: undignified worship. The fact that he danced with before the
S2: Lord with such abandon. And his wife was like, hmm, basically,
S2: a king would not act like that. I mean, what
S2: are what are you doing here? And trying to kind
S2: of rein him in and he, with defiance, is like,
S2: I'll be even more.
S4: I love that that.
S2: You ain't seen nothing yet. And it really got me
S2: thinking about the the times when we our call as
S2: a Christ follower is to do something to take some step,
S2: whether it's in worship or anything else, where we might
S2: look a little foolish to the watching world.
S4: Yeah, absolutely.
S2: Where people might go, what are you what are you
S2: doing over there? Yeah. You know, I it's my my,
S2: I have a 15 year old daughter who really prefers
S2: to read a physical Bible as opposed to what would
S2: be easier would be just the electronic version. Because she
S2: always has her phone number.
S3: And her age.
S2: For her, always reading the actual Bible. So she carries
S2: this tattered pink Bible with her absolutely everywhere. And and
S2: she will open it up. And she's kind of pushed
S2: past that barrier of like, what will people think of her?
S2: And she will just we'll we'll catch her on the
S2: sidelines of getting ready for her basketball game. She's got
S2: this pink Bible open. We'll catch her in the I
S2: mean and it's and it's such a cool thing because
S2: I think she she had to push through a little
S2: bit of a kind of the strange looks of people going,
S2: what do you.
S3: I'm sure, I'm sure she did.
S2: What are you reading? What are you what are you doing? Like,
S2: that's kind of. It's kind of weird. You're like reading
S2: a Bible right now. Yeah. You know. And what what
S2: do you. What do you say, Jonathan? There's a story
S2: that comes to mind when you think about this idea
S2: of kind of pushing past what feels uncomfortable, maybe even
S2: foolish to the world to honor God.
S4: Yeah. There's this story of of my brother, actually. And
S4: and he's shared this publicly before, so I feel like
S4: it's totally fine to share it. So my brother, uh,
S4: back in 2019, uh, admitted himself into rehab, uh, through
S4: a lot of different addiction challenges. Uh, he was stuck
S4: in he went and wanted to get better. And it
S4: was a Christian based rehab center. And, uh, he moved
S4: there and spent some time there and, and was being counseled.
S4: And through the process, I won't talk about everything he
S4: was going through or that they were counseling him through,
S4: but he had some stuff that his his counselor said, I,
S4: before we meet again, I want you to go and
S4: I want you to process these things, talk like go
S4: and and just talk with God about these things. And
S4: so he went out to a fire pit outside at
S4: the center, uh, and he was going over this list
S4: that he had written, and he was just feeling this
S4: gigantic barrier, like he couldn't do what the counselor was
S4: asking him to do. And he prayed about it, and
S4: he said, God, I can't do this. I don't know.
S4: I don't know. I don't know if this is possible
S4: for me. And he was praying about it. And God said,
S4: I want you to go over. And he said, God
S4: spoke really clearly to him about this. I want you
S4: to go over to this Calvary replica, which Calvary is
S4: the three crosses? Uh, you know, where where Jesus was
S4: crucified and the two thieves next to him. And and
S4: so they had three crosses up in this little outside area.
S4: He said, I want you to go and I want
S4: you to kneel at the cross. And my brother had
S4: an argument with God. He said, he said, that's stupid. Uh,
S4: you're not there. I'm I'm not going to go kneel
S4: in front of, you know, a couple pieces of wood.
S2: How foolish will I look?
S4: How foolish will I look? That's a that's a dumb thing.
S4: I'm not going to do that. And he said, God
S4: kept telling him, you need to go over and kneel
S4: in front of it. And he said, all right, fine,
S4: I'll go do it. And he kneeled down in front
S4: of it, and he said, when he did, it's like
S4: he saw the feet of Jesus hanging on the cross
S4: in front of him, like it was that real. And
S4: he broke down and he said, that was my moment
S4: where I genuinely came to Christ. And the thing, the
S4: barriers that he was experiencing, he said those were lifted
S4: from me. I was able to do the thing the
S4: counselor was asking me to do, because I finally came
S4: to terms with Jesus, and it was because I physically
S4: kneeled down in front of a cross replica that I
S4: thought was silly to do, but Jesus was asking me to.
S2: Ooh, I love that story. Yeah. You know, I'd love
S2: to hear from you this morning. What comes to mind
S2: for you? What what thing did God call you to
S2: do that maybe you felt a little foolish at first.
S2: Maybe looked a little foolish or undignified. But, you know,
S2: it's what God called you to do. Maybe it was
S2: in worship. Maybe it was to go up and talk
S2: to some stranger about Jesus. What's something that God called
S2: you to do? That at first felt a little foolish
S2: or undignified. 800, 555 7898. I really want to hear
S2: your responses on this, because I'm convinced that when we can,
S2: by God's grace, push past that feeling of discomfort. Man.
S2: We can walk in new levels of freedom. What's your story?
S2: 800 555 7898.
S1: Making herself laugh no matter who joins her. It's time
S1: for Ali thinks it's funny.
S2: Nothing like a good joke or two. Or a bad
S2: joke or two to get your Wednesday off right. This is.
S2: Ali thinks.
S3: It's.
S2: Funny. Have you ever noticed that some people only seem
S2: to get sick on weekdays?
S3: Hmm. Yeah.
S2: What is the common denominator between people who only get
S2: sick on weekdays? Work days, if you will.
S3: Okay.
S4: I don't know.
S2: I know it must have a weakened immune system. A
S2: weakened immune system.
S3: Okay.
S4: That's pretty good.
S2: When I started to tell that, I was like, wait,
S2: there's a lot of ways you could go with this.
S2: Somebody who only gets sick and I'm going gonna use
S2: sick in air quotes.
S3: Yeah.
S2: It's Monday.
S3: Yes, it's that weekend.
S2: Immune system again. So I went to Costco the other day.
S2: This is now part of the joke. I didn't really
S2: go to Costco, but it's the setup. I never want
S2: to lie to you.
S4: But you could say you.
S8: Went to Costco the other.
S3: Day. I do go, there you go. Yeah.
S2: So I went to Costco the other day, and I
S2: picked up a new one of those new handy dandy
S2: 4 in 1 printers.
S3: Oh, good for you.
S4: 4 in 1.
S2: Yeah. You know, it could do all the things. You
S2: just need one. One little device and it can do
S2: all the things.
S8: Very nice.
S2: Unfortunately, I got pulled over on the way home from Costco.
S2: I was driving home with my new 4 in 1 printer.
S2: The cop approached the car. I rolled the window down
S2: and I asked him if he'd like to see all
S2: the cool features on my new 4 in 1 printer.
S4: Interesting of you to do that.
S2: His response? Just the facts, ma'am.
S8: Like. What? Just the facts.
S4: I know, I get.
S8: It. Just the facts.
S3: What? At the same time.
S4: Try explaining what faxing is to someone who's younger.
S8: Than you. Don't know what a fax is.
S4: I know what a fax is, but I know for a.
S8: Fact that.
S4: There's many people who are just slightly younger.
S8: Than me. Okay.
S2: I'm going to ask for a show of hands, because
S2: we do happen to have two younger people in the room.
S2: We do. Do either of you know what a fax?
S2: Do you know what a fax?
S8: Do you know fax? Do you know what a fax machine.
S2: Okay, two for two.
S3: Okay.
S8: See?
S2: These are. This is the under 25 crowd. Both of
S2: them knew. Both of them knew the facts.
S8: Hold on.
S4: James, could you explain a fax to me if I
S4: told you about it? If I asked you to come
S4: up to this microphone and tell me about it.
S8: No. Maybe not. You said.
S4: I don't.
S8: Know. Just the facts. See?
S2: They got it. You can't be making excuses that why
S2: you don't find my jokes funny? That maybe the younger
S2: people don't understand.
S8: No, no, no, I didn't say. That's why I didn't think.
S4: It was.
S8: Funny. I didn't think.
S4: It was funny for other reasons, but.
S8: Wow. Do you.
S2: Do you remember the show that that phrase came from.
S8: Which.
S4: Is the facts?
S8: No.
S2: Yeah. Just. Okay, so then maybe this is the layers
S2: of it. There's layers to this joke, and maybe some
S2: of them are lost.
S4: Gotcha.
S2: This was attributed to Joe Friday from Dragnet.
S8: Okay.
S4: I heard the name Dragnet.
S2: I guess he didn't actually say it. Apparently, he didn't
S2: actually say it, but it kind of became a part
S2: of the pop culture lexicon. Anyway, I'm Overexplaining jokes.
S3: Yeah, leave.
S2: It to 805 five, five 7898. Sometimes you win, sometimes
S2: you don't. Text jokes to 800 555 7898. Someone out
S2: there really appreciated that just didn't happen to be in
S2: this room.
S1: He was sharing the gospel on the radio and then
S1: he got saved. Young thunders in the crew. It's Carl
S1: and crew on Moody Radio.
S2: Well, coming up, we have a Harvard trained, Johns Hopkins
S2: trained oncologist and researcher who's going to help us tackle
S2: this question comes up a lot. Someone will say, I'm
S2: not sure I can believe in God because I believe
S2: in science. Are those two opposed? I'll give you the
S2: short version. They're absolutely not. In fact, there's a sacred
S2: story that's being told everywhere you look, inside and out.
S2: More coming up.
S1: You can take him out of Alaska, but you can't
S1: take Alaska out of him. Carl is in the crew.
S1: It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
S9: Whenever I go overseas, I get another glimpse of God
S9: at work. And whenever archaeologists dig a little deeper, it
S9: just confirms God. And whenever you look a little closer
S9: and I'm talking science, all of a sudden creation comes alive.
S9: Isn't it amazing? The deeper we dig, the closer we look,
S9: and the more experiences we have. God's popping up all
S9: over the place.
S2: But yet the narrative that's still is so pervasive out there.
S2: You'll hear people say, I'm sorry. I cannot believe in
S2: the Bible. I can't believe in God because I believe
S2: in science. Our guest, Doctor William West. That must fire
S2: you up a little bit. When you hear people say,
S2: I don't believe in God, I believe in science. That's
S2: the perfect setup for you, right? You're ready to go
S2: when someone says that, right?
S10: It's just so ironic because the science is a revelation
S10: of God. I just find it almost humorous.
S2: Doctor William West, Harvard and Johns Hopkins trained oncologist, a researcher.
S2: He's advanced cancer care and research over three decades. Give
S2: us the elevator pitch of how you would respond to someone.
S2: You have only an elevator ride from floor one to
S2: floor eight. I know that's a short amount of time,
S2: but where would you start with someone who? That was
S2: what they led with? I don't believe in God. I
S2: believe in science.
S10: I would tell them very quickly that they need to
S10: revisit the science, understand how the pieces fit together, and
S10: when they see how beautifully they fit together, they'll realize
S10: they're super intelligent creation. And actually, science is an alternative
S10: revelation of God. So they're just moving from the scriptural
S10: revelation to a scientific revelation and seeing the same unimaginable God.
S9: Doctor West, you must be blown away in your study,
S9: in your practice, in all the many decades of work
S9: that you've done as an oncologist and researcher, what are
S9: some of the most eye popping things that you've discovered
S9: in recent days, months, maybe even a year or two
S9: that you go, oh my goodness, there is intelligent design here.
S10: Well, our bodies are so beautifully made right now, I'm
S10: actually working on a project where we if you know
S10: what a T cell is, that's a brain cell in
S10: our immune system that can fight cancer. And we now
S10: have the mechanism to put a new set of eyes,
S10: a new receptor in that T cell to see the cancer.
S10: So all of a sudden, every T cell in the
S10: body is fighting the cancer. Of course, that's a man
S10: made engineered thing. But the underlying possibility is obviously divinely designed.
S2: Let's talk a little bit about just creation, the creation story.
S2: How does science tell a sacred story even from the
S2: very beginning?
S10: Well, the first sentence of the Bible is my favorite.
S10: And I wonder, you know, this is 600 years before Jesus.
S10: And the first words in the beginning and involved light.
S10: Our best scientists didn't believe that. You know, Albert Einstein
S10: really resisted the idea that we had a beginning. And
S10: to realize that hundreds of years before Jesus, an inspired writer,
S10: was able to write that sentence and say there was
S10: a beginning and it involved light. And that's exactly what
S10: science understands and says and describes.
S9: Do you see? Um, because I've, I had the privilege
S9: of talking closely with the very skilled oncologist here in Chicagoland,
S9: and there's a commitment in his craft to really be
S9: committed to helping heal people. Are you seeing people that
S9: are looking more closely, deeply at science and contemplating origins,
S9: or is there still a resistance to that in your profession?
S9: What would you say?
S10: Well, 60% of my profession are believers, but generally speaking,
S10: in science, there's this sort of unwritten don't open the
S10: door to God. Let's let's keep it quote scientific and
S10: it's kind of disappointing. It mutes a lot of our
S10: would be discussion. And that's true in all the sciences.
S10: In oncology we have a little more freedom. You know,
S10: people are more willing to talk about their faith. And
S10: I think it's our responsibility as oncologists to be there
S10: for them and to be able to have that discussion
S10: and always look for that opportunity.
S2: Doctor Bill West, our guest right now, Harvard and Johns
S2: Hopkins trained oncologist and research. Does cancer reveal a flaw
S2: in God's design. I mean, so many people, probably every
S2: person listening at this moment has been touched by cancer,
S2: whether it's a loved one or a friend or themselves.
S2: Does it reveal a flaw in God's design?
S10: No. I think it reflects very well. It's clearly planned. Clearly, uh,
S10: reflecting a preparation made by God. And, uh, one of
S10: the discoverers of DNA finally gave up and said it
S10: must have flown in from outer space. And so I'm
S10: not surprised that we have cancer because there's so much
S10: information in that molecule. You know, we replicate our DNA
S10: 1 trillion times per day. So the idea that we
S10: can do that with perfection is just not realistic. And
S10: therefore we are going to have mutations. And as we
S10: get older, they're going to be more likely. At the
S10: same time, of course, in oncology we're trying to find
S10: new drugs and identify new targets and be more effective
S10: at treating these mutations as they arise.
S9: There seems to be a move afoot in some circles
S9: of science that are saying, because you mentioned human responsibility
S9: and free will, and God's put some things in motion.
S9: And I know that a lot of our cancers, um,
S9: research is proving that a lot of them are the
S9: result of a lot of the impurities and things that
S9: we brought into our systems, either willfully or passively, just
S9: by living in the world that we live in today.
S9: How much of your counsel that you give to people
S9: comes back to God's plan for even how we treat
S9: our bodies?
S10: The biggest mistake I ever made was the production of
S10: tobacco and giving cigarettes to the soldiers during the war,
S10: in the early years of my career. Lung cancer just dominated.
S10: And gradually young people have gotten that information and the
S10: frequency of smoking is going down, thank goodness. But that's
S10: the clearest example of us having the free will to
S10: do something that, by hindsight, was not really very bright
S10: and was certainly potentially damaging to our health.
S2: Doctor West, I'm curious about your own background and testimony.
S2: Did you come to faith early in life and then
S2: know you wanted to go into science, or which came
S2: first for you?
S10: Well, you couldn't be my mother's child and not be
S10: a Christian. So she introduced me to the faith when
S10: I was old enough for her to hold my hand
S10: and keep me awake in church. She had a favorite
S10: book and it was called Portraits of Christ in Genesis.
S10: It's a classic. I've got it sitting behind me right
S10: now in my bookshelf. And I read that periodically because
S10: it's just so beautiful, basically pointing that the whole testament
S10: is really looking forward to Jesus. I was blessed as
S10: a child to have a mother who had such a
S10: deep and wonderful faith. She died of breast cancer when
S10: I was 21, which is why I chose this particular field.
S9: Interesting.
S10: Parents have such a vital and beautiful role to play
S10: in introducing children to their faith.
S9: Yeah. It's interesting. Doctor West lost my dad. Uh, he
S9: was 95 when he passed. Interesting, though. My dad battled
S9: a couple, 3 or 4 different types of cancer, believe
S9: it or not. And yet you wouldn't have known it.
S9: Looking at my dad, my dad was an incredible man
S9: of God. He had incredible faith. And even when he
S9: was diagnosed with stage four colon rectal cancer, my dad
S9: would put a clenched fist in front of his face.
S9: And with passion he'd say, Oh, Carl, God is so good.
S9: And my dad's witness, through all of his treatments to
S9: both the saved and unsaved alike, doctors included, was so
S9: profound that I. I stood in the operating room and
S9: looked at a surgeon who said to me, your dad's
S9: outlook on life. And then he said, and he attributes
S9: it to God is probably one of his greatest assets
S9: to overcome this. How have you seen that linked?
S10: You know, I wish we had ever done a study.
S10: I don't think I've ever seen a formal study done,
S10: but boy have I seen the individuals who have that
S10: faith and I just seem to a feeling like they
S10: do better. They're empowered. It seems like they take their
S10: treatment better and they do better.
S2: Doctor William West has a new book out. His first.
S2: It's called Sacred Science Understanding Divine Creation. Fascinating story tells
S2: about the story that science tells the sacred story. Why
S2: our creator is a mathematical genius. Fascinating work. I think
S2: you're going to be interested. Text science will get you
S2: the details. Text science to 855 five 7898. Just text
S2: science to 800 555 7898.
S9: You know, Ali, for thousands of our listeners who look
S9: for things like this constantly, this is in the wheelhouse.
S9: This is written by a man with many years of experience,
S9: and he's got a story to tell. And it all
S9: comes from faith into science. So check it out.
S2: Text science to 855 five 7898. Just one word. Science
S2: 800 555 7898.