S1: Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
S1: and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
S1: and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
S1: But before you go, I want to tell you about
S1: this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
S1: And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
S1: going out into the night sky and looking up and
S1: seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
S1: about God? And are you not in a moment of
S1: awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
S1: of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
S1: that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
S1: wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
S1: of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
S1: book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
S1: from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
S1: a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
S1: this sense of awe through the work that they do.
S1: In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
S1: it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
S1: because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
S1: to walk through the chapters written by people who all
S1: have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
S1: to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
S1: amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
S1: just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
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S1: Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: Americans worshiping government over God.
S5: Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S6: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1: Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Oh,
S1: are we going to have a fascinating conversation? In fact,
S1: I have to tell you right up front, there is
S1: so much excellent information in the book we're going to
S1: talk about. That will be the basis for a wellspring
S1: of conversations on a topic that has everybody saved or
S1: not interested. I'm just not going to get it done
S1: in an hour. So I'm going to talk about some
S1: of it. In the meantime, you're going to get another copy.
S1: Just go to the website, figure out how you can
S1: get it, pick up a copy for yourself. But this
S1: is a marvelous book. Here's the title supernatural encounters divine
S1: and demonic dreams, visions and prophecy. Past and present. And
S1: this is about exposing the occult. See, I told you,
S1: I have your presence right now. I got to tell you.
S1: We know that Hollywood is interested in this. We know
S1: that horror films, for example, are the number one genre
S1: in film. What does that say about the human condition? Thanks,
S1: but no thanks. But there is an interest. I also believe,
S1: because God has placed eternity in our hearts, that we
S1: all believe that there's something else, someone else, something beyond.
S1: And then the Bible tells us, for those of us
S1: who are followers of Christ and believe in the inerrancy
S1: of His Word, that we should entertain strangers, well, because
S1: we might be entertaining angels. So. And Ephesians remind us
S1: that the battle is not against flesh and blood. Thank you, Lord,
S1: that we can't see them with our little mortals minds.
S1: We'd pass out cold, I'm quite sure. But that battle
S1: is battle is being waged in the heavenlies, and our
S1: great King is the victor. But I love it when
S1: someone who understands the Word of God comes along and
S1: teaches us, because it is a fascinating conversation, and I
S1: think it does several things. Number one, it reminds us
S1: to get dressed in the morning. You know that suit
S1: of armor that's hanging in your closet? Yeah. You're supposed
S1: to put that on every day. If you don't, good luck.
S1: Because it's a battle out there. It's tough out there.
S1: And so you and I need to suit up when
S1: we get up and we go out. And so we
S1: need to understand that this is real, not to be afraid.
S1: Come on. Greater is he that is in us than
S1: he that is in the world. But the reality of
S1: this war is something that cannot be avoided or negated.
S1: Doctor James DeYoung knows that he has been a professor
S1: of New Testament at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for
S1: years and years and years, retired in 2015. His most
S1: recent works deal with eschatology. His articles have appeared in
S1: Bibliotheca Sacra. Just gave my husband a renewal to that
S1: for Christmas. It was his favorite Christmas present, by the way.
S1: Master's Seminary Journal and Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society.
S1: He has co-authored Beyond the Obvious, Discover the Deeper Meaning
S1: of Scripture, and contributed to the evangelical Commentary on the Bible,
S1: as well as the Gospels and the Scriptures of Israel.
S1: His brand new book, and the one we just talked about,
S1: has contributions from Tracy Pollan, his friend, and his son
S1: James as well. It is a marvelous book filled with illustrations,
S1: and boy, it caught my attention and I'm so glad
S1: that I had an opportunity to talk to doctor DeYoung
S1: years ago when he wrote a book that was a compassionate, eloquent,
S1: biblical rebuttal of The Shack. And if you have not
S1: heard that interview, if you've not read Doctor Deyoung's book
S1: on that, you need to, because that thing was saturated
S1: in heresy, and he really did a marvelous job of
S1: breaking it all down. And I'm so thankful. So, James,
S1: thank you very much for joining me again. We had
S1: a memorable conversation in the past. I believe that this
S1: will be the first of many conversations on this book,
S1: because there's just too much to cover in an hour.
S1: And I was going to ask you a question, but
S1: I think there's a sneak peak in what I just said.
S1: Because you are interested in eschatology, it seems to me
S1: that conversations about supernatural encounters just follow suit from that.
S1: Am I right or wrong?
S7: You're very much correct, Janet. Thank you so much for
S7: having me today.
S1: Oh, it's a delight to have you here. So this
S1: is an interesting topic. I remember years ago, Billy Graham
S1: wrote a small little book about angels. I devoured that
S1: book because he did a wonderful job of explaining angel ology.
S1: And we know that the culture, when we let the
S1: culture teach us theology and we shouldn't. They talk about
S1: demons all the time, and then they also turn around
S1: and they tell us that we should be worshiping angels.
S1: You point out very clearly that that is not the case,
S1: but you break this book up into several sections, which
S1: I found absolutely fascinating. And you start most interestingly by this,
S1: and I'm going to read the chapter. It's part one
S1: imagining Supernatural Encounters in Israel at War. What an interesting
S1: place to start a conversation about supernatural encounters. Why begin
S1: with Israel?
S7: Well, uh, the history of how this book came to
S7: pass is, uh, enlightening for myself and perhaps for your listeners.
S7: I remember reading books about the occult and about supernatural
S7: encounters in other sources. And one day I said to
S7: my wife, I'm going to write a book about supernatural encounters.
S7: And that took off in various directions, and I finally
S7: finalized a particular direction I wanted to go. And so
S7: that consumes the bulk of the book. And then I
S7: thought of adding a couple other things that would contemporize
S7: the biblical message. So that's how this book came to pass.
S1: That's so interesting. Now, having said that, it's interesting that
S1: you would start with Israel. Why Israel?
S7: Well, uh, because when I started, uh, thinking about this book,
S7: the recent events that had happened in Israel with the
S7: attack of Hamas on October the 7th, 2023 was in
S7: my mind. And, uh, I had been reading about supernatural
S7: encounters all through Israel's history, especially of the evil one
S7: that take place in the territory that we know as Gaza.
S7: And I thought, you know, my son, who has a
S7: great imagination and wants to write and has written some fiction,
S7: he could contribute a contemporary fictional account of what happened
S7: on that particular day and how it unfolded as two
S7: children who had been whose parents had been killed by Hamas,
S7: are delivered by God's supernatural agents, as my son called them.
S7: And those are angels. And it took place near Mount Hermon,
S7: which perhaps your listeners are acquainted with the fact that
S7: that is associated with the place that fallen angels first
S7: engaged to humanity. So anyway, that all came together in
S7: different parts like that.
S1: Wow. Absolutely fascinating. You brought up your son. Talk about
S1: the role that your son played in this book. And
S1: Tracy as well.
S7: Well, uh, after thinking about how I wanted to write
S7: my part. And I'll get back to that, uh, in
S7: the format that I chose, I thought, you know, this
S7: book needs to be contemporized so that people don't simply
S7: read about the Bible supernatural encounters and think that God
S7: no longer is encountering mankind, nor are demons any longer
S7: doing that. And so I had made a friend, uh, Tracy,
S7: who went into the occult in a very deep way
S7: and spent several years there and explored all kinds of
S7: ways to understand, uh, life and what that may have
S7: to offer. And so I invited her to participate in
S7: it that way and write part three, giving her personal
S7: testimony of being involved in the occult and how to
S7: be delivered from it.
S1: Let me stop you there if I can, James, because
S1: you hear the music, let me pick it up exactly
S1: at that point. So Tracy's very compelling story of getting
S1: involved in this stuff is a part of the new
S1: book that doctor DeYoung has written called Supernatural Encounters, and
S1: his son also played an important role novelizing The beginning. Fabulous.
S1: Back after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves
S1: us so deeply? Or why beauty takes our breath away?
S1: My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book
S1: that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's
S1: called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of
S1: life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your
S1: copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a
S1: gift of any amount to in the market, call 877
S1: Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in
S1: the market with Janet Parshall. Fascinating topic. The supernatural. It
S1: is real. And don't let the world teach you theology.
S1: Thank you, Doctor Michael Easley, for reminding us of that
S1: on a regular basis. Doctor James DeYoung is with us,
S1: taught for years at the New Testament at Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon,
S1: and he was a Prof of New Testament. Wouldn't you
S1: love to have sat in his class? So Tracy's story
S1: and by the way, James, you're taking this out and
S1: you're going to turn that into, like, a standalone for
S1: her story, are you not?
S7: Yes, I'm planning to. Already there is a booklet that
S7: we've just published, uh, called Visions and Dreams. Uh, how? Basically,
S7: Sophie Lin, that's her pen name. Uh, got involved in
S7: the occult, got deeply involved. So much so that she
S7: despaired of life and thought of suicide, and then repented
S7: as she called out to God to save her. And
S7: Jesus answered her prayer and entered into her life and
S7: transformed her, made her into a new person in Christ.
S7: And all of that is told in a short, beautifully
S7: illustrated booklet that we're beginning to distribute.
S1: Excellent, excellent. And I can't wait for our friends to
S1: get a copy of that as well. It'll be a
S1: wonderful witnessing tool. Now, I don't want to avoid your son,
S1: because I just want to encapsulate what he did again
S1: at the beginning. He writes this wonderful. It's a little novella,
S1: if I can put it that way, about using angels
S1: to tell a story that ties back to what's happening
S1: in Israel. And I'm so grateful for his contribution. Let
S1: me just ask you a question. And this is not
S1: the novel part. This is the reality part. Do you
S1: think that there are angels involved in what's going on
S1: in the Middle East right now?
S7: Oh of course. In fact, you notice I didn't hesitate
S7: to answer that question.
S1: That's right.
S7: If nowhere else in Gaza and I did this in
S7: an article for Prophecy Watchers magazine, I trace how that
S7: the present war or conflict going on between Israel and
S7: Hamas in Gaza is simply the modern counterpart of a
S7: demonic power and influence in that area of Israel that
S7: goes all the way back 2000 years or so before Christ,
S7: and after that time, during the time of Moses, and
S7: then the later time of under Joshua, when he was
S7: commanded by God, to go in and conquer all of
S7: the land of Israel. And he did much of that,
S7: but failed to conquer certain parts in the North, and
S7: then also along the Mediterranean Sea, which is the Gaza
S7: Strip as we know it today. And Gaza is named
S7: in the Old Testament as part of the inheritance that
S7: went to Ham, Noah's son under Canaan and Israel under Joshua.
S7: Israel failed to capture that area, and it has been
S7: a hotbed of demonic activity and idolatry ever since. And
S7: so it's not surprising that these kinds of things continue
S7: to happen in history and even in the modern time now.
S1: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, if
S1: you just stop and you realize the importance that Israel
S1: has played in the past, currently making headlines every day
S1: and the role it will definitely play in the future,
S1: you can't look at that without understanding that it has
S1: to be surrounded by spiritual warfare.
S7: Yes. Wow. I even insert the incident of David fighting
S7: Goliath because Goliath is from Gath and, um, is a
S7: giant and an evident, uh, descendant, ultimately of the Nephilim
S7: back in Genesis. And, uh, David's fight with Goliath, he
S7: understood right away to be a spiritual struggle between his
S7: God and his God, Jehovah, or Yahweh and the God
S7: of Goliath. And, uh, so David saw it as a
S7: spiritual battle. Right on. Even though the older fighters there
S7: did not. And it was, uh, told in great length,
S7: because it sets the stage for why David is qualified
S7: to be the first king of Israel.
S1: Um, and there's a linkage, is there not, between Philistines
S1: and Palestine?
S7: Yes, absolutely.
S1: Talk about that to our friends who don't understand that,
S1: because I think, particularly with today's headlines, that's important to know.
S7: Well, uh, the Philistines are the people who lived along
S7: that edge of the Mediterranean Sea and perhaps other parts. And, uh,
S7: they give the name Palestine to the land that they occupied.
S7: And so the modern counterpart of that is, uh. The
S7: Palestinian effort in Israel. And so there's this connection all
S7: the way back to ancient history. So the designated land
S7: from a biblical standpoint is Canaan or Israel. And, uh,
S7: the pagan identity is that with the Philistines or Palestine.
S1: Fascinating. All right. So in deference to time, let me
S1: just talk about where you go to. A huge chunk
S1: of the book, you call it supernatural encounters in the
S1: Bible and in history from Genesis to Revelation and beyond.
S1: And this is just the big chunk of the book
S1: as well. It should be. And this is why I
S1: have your number, and I'm going to track you down,
S1: doctor DeYoung, because we're never going to get through all
S1: of this in one conversation. And I want to move
S1: through this slowly and thoughtfully, because there's a rich theology
S1: in all of this. So let me just start with
S1: the beginning. And it's I love the fact that God
S1: doesn't tell us everything. I think he wants us to
S1: be curious. More importantly, I think he wants us to
S1: be hungry. If I can use the words of Paul Harvey,
S1: that famous radio broadcaster, he wants us to get the
S1: rest of the story. So we get this little sneak
S1: peek that there is a rebellion in heaven, and we
S1: know that this worship leader eventually becomes Satan, takes a
S1: third of the angels and there is a rebellion. What
S1: else can we glean? What else do we know we
S1: don't want to add to or take away from Scripture?
S1: But what do we need to know that is there
S1: for our benefit?
S7: Well, I think we can make the conclusion that this
S7: rebellion by Satan or Lucifer, as he was known then,
S7: occurred before God ever created the world as we know it,
S7: because all of a sudden he appears in the garden
S7: as a fallen being and tempts Adam and Eve and
S7: brings about through this temptation the fall of humanity. And
S7: so this is the one of the greatest, uh, supernatural
S7: encounters in the entire Bible because of the consequences. But
S7: it's a demonic encounter, of course. And so all the
S7: human race is plunged into evil. And we still experience
S7: that today. The results of that fall.
S1: Yeah, 100%. I'm coming up to a break, but when
S1: we come back, let me talk a little bit about
S1: the Tower of Babel. I wonder how often people think
S1: of that as part of the supernatural. And then I
S1: do want to move to Abraham and Lot. And what
S1: happens in the city of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is
S1: so grotesquely in this postmodern world, misrepresented. It is a
S1: fascinating book and is just chock full of good theology
S1: and stories about the supernatural. And come to think of it,
S1: just realize that we live in this three dimensional world.
S1: It seems rich and full, does it not? But oh,
S1: it's nothing compared to what is beyond. There is something beyond.
S1: And that's why doctor DeYoung writes about supernatural encounters, both
S1: divine and demonic, in his brand new book. We're going
S1: to take a break and come right back. By the way,
S1: if you're interested in a copy of this book, I
S1: hope you are. Just go to In the Market with
S1: Janet Parshall Org right below the description of the day.
S1: There's a red box. It says program details and audio.
S1: Clicking on it will take you to the information page,
S1: and you can click on through to learn how to
S1: get your copy back after this. We're visiting with Doctor
S1: James DeYoung, who has been a professor of New Testament
S1: at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for years and years
S1: and years. He's a wonderful writer. His works have appeared
S1: in Bibliotheca Sacra, master's Seminary Journal, the list goes on.
S1: His brand new book is called Supernatural Encounters Divine and
S1: Demonic Dreams, Vision and Prophecy, Past and Present. It's an
S1: absolutely fascinating book. So I'm glad I'm going to do
S1: this slowly because so many of these stories are just rich.
S1: So take me to the Tower of Babel. And again, James,
S1: I think because of the size of our audience and
S1: to God be the glory, I don't want to presume
S1: that everybody's at the same starting space scripturally, and for
S1: a lot of people, they might not even know the
S1: story of the Tower of Babel. So teach us.
S7: Well. The Tower of Babel is recorded in Genesis ten
S7: and 11. It was the attempt of humanity after the
S7: flood of humanity is represented by the descendants of Noah,
S7: and he had three sons, and among them were Shem, Ham,
S7: and Japheth. And the descendants of Ham especially turn out
S7: to be evil in their orientation eventually, but at the
S7: Tower of Babel, after mankind began to multiply again under
S7: the descendants of Noah, they decide to build a tower
S7: as it is described, and a city and to local
S7: locally do this in a particular place, and I believe
S7: that they were trying to represent or replicate what had
S7: happened before the flood in the attempt to transgress into
S7: God's realm, uh, uninvited, that is, they were trying to
S7: bring heaven to earth in their own means and by
S7: their evil ways. And so the Tower of Babel represents
S7: a replication or a duplication of that event that caused
S7: the flood in the first place. First place. So, uh,
S7: as they're building the tower, God looks upon this as
S7: an evil act. It is a direct failure to obey
S7: his command, to disperse and multiply and fill the earth.
S7: So God evaluated this as an evil act. So he, uh, sends, uh,
S7: multiple languages among the builders so that they cannot understand, uh, their, their, uh,
S7: aim and project. And all of humanity represented at that point, uh,
S7: need to disperse, and they finally do so and, and
S7: end up obeying God's command to fill the earth. So
S7: God's evaluation of this was a very evil intent. And
S7: by confusing their languages, the building of the tower had
S7: to stop.
S1: No, let me linger here a little bit, because I
S1: think there are some things worth ruminating on. Number one,
S1: there's no survivors from the flood, save Noah and his
S1: sons and their families. So one would have thought, being
S1: an eyewitness to total global destruction, which will never happen again.
S1: Thank you, Lord, for the sign of your covenant with
S1: the rainbow that they would have said, now we know
S1: how to live. He is the one true God. We'll
S1: worship him always. We'll teach the generations to come, to
S1: worship him always. There's that basic sin nature of man.
S1: So even though humanity has been wiped out once again,
S1: sin starts raising its ugly head. I think that says
S1: something about the human condition and how desperate we are
S1: for a savior, because they had a perfect opportunity to say, boy,
S1: we're never going to do that again. And exactly the
S1: opposite happens, which I think is so interesting. So this please.
S7: You know, after after enough time, we all forget God's graces.
S7: And through successive generations, that story of salvation and deliverance
S7: of the past becomes more and more faint and remote.
S7: And we replicate and duplicate our evil rebellion against God
S7: in subsequent generations.
S1: Such a good point, and such a reminder to stay
S1: grounded in the word close to him, because all we
S1: like sheep have gone astray. That's something that we can't
S1: forget about the human condition and the story of Noah
S1: and the flood and his sons is a perfect example.
S1: Total annihilation saved Noah and his family, and yet sin
S1: creeps its way back into the world again. It's just amazing.
S1: So how do angels play in this story, James?
S7: Well, in that particular story, I'm not sure. Um, but
S7: certainly in the subsequent events, uh, that happen in Genesis, uh,
S7: they certainly do intervene. And, uh, the story of Sodom
S7: and Gomorrah is a classic example of this, really on
S7: an unprecedented scale, never before experienced and never since. The
S7: biblical record of Sodom and Gomorrah starts in Genesis 13,
S7: where it is noted in verse 13 that they had
S7: an evil record alright already. And so in chapter 18,
S7: three visitors come to Abraham, who's God's appointed, uh, person
S7: for the subsequent generations that will eventually, eventually bring about
S7: the nation of Israel. Uh, two of these visitors to
S7: Abraham are angels, and one is Jesus Christ in a theophany. Theophany?
S7: An appearance of God in the Old Testament. And, uh,
S7: the angels are sent there to investigate whether or not
S7: Sodom and Gomorrah are as evil as the report is,
S7: has been. And, uh, they go off to Sodom and, uh,
S7: they go to lot's house, who is a nephew of Abraham. And, uh,
S7: while they're in there, the men of Sodom, men of Sodom,
S7: encircle it and demand to have the two angels come
S7: out to them who have appeared as men. And so
S7: these angels, uh, uh, refused to, uh, lot refused to
S7: allow them to leave the house and, and protect them.
S7: And so the angels caused blindness upon, uh, the men
S7: of Sodom, and they are forced to break off their
S7: attempt to, uh, harm and to sexually, uh, violate the
S7: two men who are really angels. And so the warned
S7: destruction of Sodom takes place. And, uh, Abraham is deeply
S7: concerned about this as he's foretold. And so he intercedes
S7: on behalf of lot and others that may be in
S7: Sodom and starts with 50 people. If there are 50
S7: people that are righteous, he pleads that God would not
S7: destroy them. And God says, yes, I will not destroy
S7: it if there are 50 people there. And in the
S7: middle of this discussion, uh, we are told one of
S7: the basic principles of the entire Old Testament. Uh, will
S7: not God, the judge of all the earth, do right.
S7: And so he goes all the way down to ten people,
S7: and there are not even ten people there. But God
S7: still spare those who are righteous, namely lot and his family.
S1: Exactly, exactly. So for postmodern people who are reinventing the scriptures,
S1: this has nothing to do with the act of being inhospitable,
S1: by the way. Doctor James Young is with us. Fascinating book.
S1: It's called Supernatural Encounters Divine and Demonic. It is chock
S1: full of stories from Scripture back after this. Our team
S1: of partial partners is growing, and I love communicating behind
S1: the scenes with this special group of friends who are
S1: devoted to giving a monthly gift in the market. Our
S1: partial partners receive private emails direct from me on issues
S1: we don't address on radio, and I even send a
S1: weekly audio message straight from my heart to yours. Ready
S1: to become a partial partner? Call (877) 588-7758 or go to
S1: in the market with Janet Parshall Doctor James DeYoung is
S1: with us. He has been professor of New Testament at
S1: Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for years and years and years.
S1: His most recent works deal with eschatology. His articles have
S1: appeared in Bibliotheca Sacra, master Seminary Journal, and the Journal
S1: of the Evangelical Theological Society. He has co-authored Beyond the Obvious,
S1: Discover the Deeper Meaning of Scripture, and contributed to the
S1: Evangelical Commentary on the Bible and the Gospels and the
S1: Scriptures of Israel. His newest book is called Supernatural Encounters
S1: Divine and Demonic Dreams, Visions and Prophecy, Past and Present. James,
S1: I was thinking during the break, the book is just
S1: rich with you walking right through scripture with all of
S1: these angelic manifestations, both demonic and divine. But let me
S1: just pull back, pull over to the side of the
S1: road and hit the stop for a minute. What is
S1: the purpose of angels? What does the scripture. I'm going
S1: to give you a cluster of questions here. What's the
S1: purpose of angels? Is there a hierarchy in Scripture? Why
S1: are there only to the best of my knowledge, two
S1: angels whose names are named? So in other words, being
S1: very careful with the word not wanting to add to
S1: or take away from what does the Bible tell us
S1: about angels?
S7: Well, I think, pardon me in answer to your first question.
S7: According to Hebrews chapter one verse 14, angels are sent
S7: forth to minister on behalf of us who are believers.
S7: That's the primary, uh, challenge or commitment that angels have
S7: during our age. They also reveal God's word is told
S7: to us in the book of Galatians that the law
S7: came from God through angels to Moses. So they mediated
S7: the Old Covenant, and they continued to worship God day
S7: and night for eternity. According to revelation chapters four and five.
S7: So there are several purposes for angels. Uh, an additional
S7: one is to reveal God's will to particular individuals along
S7: the way. And so angels appeared to Abraham. They appeared
S7: to Jacob. They appeared to other Old Testament persons. And
S7: in the New Testament they appear to, uh, the apostles
S7: at different, on different occasions and so forth.
S1: So in the verse in Hebrews it talks about entertaining angels.
S1: There might be strangers, but they were unaware that they're angels.
S1: That seems to me to suggest that we could see angels.
S1: Is that right?
S7: Well, that's a verse from chapter 13 in, in at
S7: the end of the book of Hebrews. And it's a
S7: suggestion and a warning to us that we don't disparage
S7: the fact that angels may appear to us today on
S7: any particular occasion. Uh, just as they have in the past.
S7: And so we should be aware of that fact and
S7: not dismiss and think, uh, less of, uh, the possibility
S7: of angels appearing today whether, uh, in the personhood of
S7: what appears to us to be a real individuals or persons,
S7: as well as in dreams and perhaps visions.
S8: Mhm. Mhm.
S1: Well, and if the Scripture tells us that he has
S1: set his angels to keep watch over us, obviously they're
S1: still actively participating in God's good and perfect will.
S7: Oh yes. And that's for believers. And another evil thing
S7: that angels are doing today, according to Daniel ten and 11,
S7: is to lead nations astray, to deceive them, to corrupt them, uh,
S7: to put them in allegiance to Satan rather than to God.
S7: And so that means, as a practical application, uh, we
S7: can ask the question, what kind of angels are behind
S7: the scenes operating in Washington, DC? So there's a conflict
S7: going on all over the world, all the time, uh,
S7: to take nations and companies and individuals down the path
S7: of evil and, and therefore corrupt them. And on the
S7: other hand, there's a conflict going on between them and
S7: good angels. And as you said, two are named in
S7: the Bible, uh, Michael and Gabriel. And they are put in, uh,
S7: in the effort on behalf of God to prevent evil
S7: from championing, from winning and so forth.
S8: Um.
S1: So when you said angels behind those nations that are
S1: being pulled astray, etc., you mean fallen angels, or in
S1: other word, for it would be demons, right?
S7: Yes. So they are an attempt of the evil forces, uh,
S7: to corrupt them and destroy them and to put them
S7: in allegiance to Satan rather than to doing God's will
S7: in the earth.
S1: So if Hebrews gives us the sense that we can
S1: see angels, therefore does it follow that we could also
S1: unaware be seeing a demon?
S7: Yes, I've read reports of people who can testify to
S7: that effect. I think Tracy says that in her testimony.
S7: I read somewhere else from two other, people who were
S7: formerly in the occult who've been delivered, and they attest
S7: to that very fact.
S8: Yeah. Yeah.
S1: It wouldn't surprise me at all by any stretch of
S1: the imagination. When you talked about Washington, DC. I smiled
S1: because there's so much there. But you're also suggesting and
S1: I'm I'm asking you as a professor of Scripture, if
S1: the Bible gives us a sense that there's a kind
S1: of territorialism, if you will, in the divine and in
S1: the supernatural. So you talked about leading cities astray. Do
S1: we think, do we know does the Bible give us
S1: any indication that there are supernatural forces that are assigned
S1: over certain parts of the globe, and where certain things
S1: are happening, we might we won't know definitively because we
S1: don't have those kinds of eyes. You know, man looks
S1: on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. We
S1: don't we can't see the supernatural. But is it is
S1: it safe to presume that possibly there are supernatural forces
S1: over territories on the globe where things are happening good
S1: and bad?
S7: Well, I think that's a possibility or a conclusion that
S7: would be validated. What I think biblically is particularly of
S7: Ephesians six, where Paul warns believers to stand fast with
S7: the armour of God because there are principalities, powers, world
S7: rulers of this darkness, and so forth. They list four
S7: different categories of fallen creatures demons or angels, and therefore, um,
S7: that that would signify some degree of authority or rank
S7: among the fallen angels. And I'm not just sure as
S7: to whether or not that can be territorialized, but certainly
S7: Israel would be, uh, a special hotbed for spiritual warfare.
S7: And clearly Daniel presents Michael as the protector of Israel
S7: in Daniel chapter 12, verse one.
S8: Mhm.
S1: Absolutely. I just it when you stop and think about
S1: that and you set your mind on things above and
S1: you read the headlines every day coming out of that
S1: part of the world, the headlines that will never make
S1: it on the alphabet soup network. So the headlines that
S1: are being made in heaven, the spiritual warfare that's going
S1: on over that part of the world, which is takes
S1: my breath away when you think about it. Again, we
S1: can't add to or take away from. But why do
S1: you think? Let me just ask you, as someone who
S1: loves the word, why only two angels named.
S7: Pardon me?
S1: Why only two angels named?
S7: Well, I don't know. I would.
S8: Plead.
S7: Deuteronomy 2929, which said, the secret things belong unto the
S7: Lord our God.
S8: Right now.
S7: Now there are there are apocryphal writings. One is the
S7: Book of Enoch, and there Enoch, uh, which is a
S7: false writing. Uh, nevertheless, uh, has some truth in it.
S7: But whether or not the truth that I'm about to
S7: say is true, I don't really know. I don't think so.
S7: But he identified the heads of all kinds of. He
S7: gave the proper names of all kinds of different angels. Uh,
S7: so in ancient times, people did delineate and describe angels
S7: by proper names. But biblically there are only two named.
S8: Yeah.
S1: Exactly. Right. So it does suggest a kind of hierarchy,
S1: does it not? Within the angelic world?
S7: Yes. And we must conclude that with Satan at the head.
S1: Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Amazing. All right. So going back to
S1: the richness of Scripture, angels appear throughout both the old
S1: and the New Testament. Sometimes they're giving a warning, sometimes
S1: they're declaring a message. I mean, you think of the
S1: angel that appears before Mary, the angel at the tomb.
S1: I mean, just just a few of them. Talk to
S1: me about when the Holy Spirit is manifest in the
S1: book of acts. Was there any thing that we can
S1: glean from Scripture that talks about? I mean, it was
S1: it's super. It's saturated in the supernatural. Were angels a
S1: part of any of that?
S7: Oh, yes. And, uh, may I refer to what I
S7: spent a couple chapters talking about? And that is what
S7: happened on the day of Pentecost. Uh, because for me,
S7: it gives a greater dimension and reality to the understanding
S7: of spiritual gifts. Uh, the coming of the Holy Spirit
S7: on the day of Pentecost in Acts two fulfilled Scripture,
S7: and Peter stands up and explains that and quotes from
S7: Joel chapter two. It's a powerful passage. It's the only
S7: place in the Old Testament where dreams, visions, and prophecies
S7: all three come together in one text. And it's meaningful therefore.
S7: And the spirit led Peter to quote that passage. But
S7: as a result, the Holy Spirit comes upon Christians in
S7: a powerful and new and permanent way that has never,
S7: ever been done in that way. And in that capacity before.
S7: And the Holy Spirit bestows on every believer at least one,
S7: if not many, spiritual gifts. And we fail to recognize
S7: that that's a divine empowerment on a parallel with God's
S7: empowerment in other ways in the Old Testament and so forth.
S7: In other words, I'm trying to put that on a
S7: level with other voices of God speaking with angelic visitors,
S7: appearing to people in the Old Testament and so forth.
S7: So believers are equipped with a divine enablement or power
S7: that is not natural or from their own making, but
S7: is a divinely bequeathed or given gift to every single believer.
S7: And it's powerful. And it therefore is the power that
S7: we have in our spiritual warfare against the enemy and
S7: the demonic forces around us. The Holy Spirit is there
S7: to equip us and to empower us for victory on
S7: every occasion.
S8: Wow.
S1: So that power is the Holy Spirit available to every
S1: person upon confession of faith in Jesus Christ. I mean,
S1: you talk about supernatural and that if we were to
S1: ask the average believer to describe the Trinity, they'd have
S1: probably a pretty good working knowledge of Jesus. Second, they'd
S1: have a better they'd have a good knowledge of God.
S1: But there's so many questions about the power of the
S1: Holy Spirit. Why do you think that is?
S7: Uh, I guess through neglect.
S8: Uh.
S7: Well, that's an interesting question. Uh, through neglect and failure
S7: to read scripture and failure. Failure. Oh, I think it
S7: goes back to a general understanding of worldview and the
S7: Christian worldview. In other words, here in contemporary America, we
S7: are given to scientism and intellectual thinking and so forth,
S7: and we give very little time to speaking, to thinking
S7: about the spiritual dynamics all around us, which is a
S7: greater reality, biblically speaking, than the physical realm around us.
S1: Excellent answer. And so very, very true. Doctor James DeYoung
S1: is with us. His brand new book is called Supernatural
S1: Encounters Divine and Demonic. We're all interested in this subject. Now,
S1: let's make sure that what we know is right in
S1: line with Scripture, and then get excited about the power
S1: of God in our lives back after this. Doctor James
S1: DeYoung is with us. He has a brand new book
S1: called Supernatural Encounters Divine and demonic. Doctor DeYoung, by the way,
S1: was a professor of New Testament at Western Seminary in Portland,
S1: Oregon for decades, and we're so glad that he's with us.
S1: Let me go to the New Testament and talk about
S1: two individuals that you write about that had a glimpse
S1: of heaven, Paul and John. And you start out in
S1: one of your chapters with a very interesting verse from
S1: Second Corinthians, if I can. James, let me read it
S1: and then ask you to break it down for us.
S1: I know a man in Christ who was caught up
S1: in Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is
S1: not permitted to speak. There was given to me a
S1: thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me.
S1: So in that same little passage, second Corinthians 12, verses two,
S1: four and seven, you hear the story of Paul, who
S1: has this view of heaven. He's given instructions. Don't tell
S1: anybody about it. And then he gets a thorn in
S1: the flesh. And that thorn is called a messenger of Satan.
S1: So he literally goes from heaven to hell in that
S1: short passage. Talk to me about this.
S7: Well. All right. Uh, this is one of the, if
S7: not the greatest encounter of a human being in the Bible,
S7: in the sense that he takes an otherworld journey to
S7: heaven itself. He himself has to admit he can't tell
S7: if he was in the body or out of the body.
S7: So in some form of a vision, he took this trip, probably.
S7: And it's similar to what John does in the book
S7: of revelation in chapter one, as he describes it in
S7: chapter four, verse one. But in any case, Paul had
S7: this amazing experience, and yet he was forbidden to tell
S7: of it in detail and to humble him. God gave
S7: him a thorn in the flesh, some kind of ailment,
S7: so that he suffered from this for the rest of
S7: his life. And it was, in a sense, a messenger
S7: from Satan to remind him that there's a spiritual warfare
S7: going on, and he is deeply involved in it for
S7: the rest of his life. It's meant to humble him
S7: so that he would not be proudful about the event
S7: that he experienced. And he says he cannot talk about
S7: him them. They're basically on expressable. And from that, I
S7: conclude that he saw things that really defy human language
S7: to articulate. And it's a far glimpse of what is
S7: coming for every believer in Christ, in the new heavens
S7: and new earth. So it's a powerful, powerful passage.
S8: Yeah.
S1: Exactly right. Okay. So I don't want to skip the
S1: other part. And that's John referenced again, his vision when
S1: he's on the island of Patmos gives us the Book
S1: of Revelation. Um, talk to me about that experience, because
S1: the book of revelation for some is problematic in and
S1: of itself. How John gets this vision is even more problematic.
S1: Walk me through that.
S7: Well, the book of Revelation comes from God the Father,
S7: through Jesus Christ, through angels to John, who is to
S7: pass it on to God's servants, Christians. And so he
S7: experiences something that is truly amazing. And, uh, most of it,
S7: I think, is understandable as visions that he had and
S7: he saw himself again, taken up in trips to heaven
S7: and seeing heavenly things. Uh, we can think of chapters
S7: four and five in particular, and then the rest of
S7: the book is the unfolding of the judgments that come
S7: during the Great Tribulation the seals, the trumpet and the
S7: bowl judgments. It's a marvelous depiction of things. And when
S7: people say, well, I can't understand the book of Revelation,
S7: they need to remember that the whole book of revelation
S7: was given so it could be understood. Chapter one, verses
S7: one through three say, blessed is he who reads this,
S7: and those who hear so that they might obey it.
S7: And if they confess that they can't understand it, then
S7: they can't obey it. So the opposite must be God's
S7: purpose for giving us the book. It tells us something
S7: of future events, and we're. And they are written in
S7: such a way that we should understand them.
S8: Hmm.
S1: I love what you just said, and there are some
S1: people who are going, well, I'm totally confused. I mean,
S1: beasts and bulls. I don't get any of that. And
S1: it's confusing to me. And yet, when you look at revelation,
S1: it seems to me. And tell me if I'm wrong
S1: because you're the professor. But if there's 66 books, it
S1: is the book of revelation that is perhaps most deeply
S1: containing supernatural encounters. Is that right? And why would God just.
S1: And so why does God? You just said it's written
S1: and you went to the first three verses of revelation one,
S1: which is important for us to remember that we're supposed
S1: to read this, we're supposed to understand it. So God
S1: doesn't want to say, this is so spooky. I don't
S1: want you to have anything to do with it. He
S1: only gave us 66 books, every one of them inerrant, inspired, transcendent, immutable,
S1: all God breathed God authored. So I don't take the
S1: Book of revelation lightly, but it really is different from
S1: any of the other books because one of your passions,
S1: you one of your passions right now is eschatology. What
S1: are some of the takeaways you think God wants us
S1: to take from the Book of Revelation?
S7: Well, we need to remember that according to, again, the
S7: first few verses of the book, it said that God
S7: signed it to his servant John. The verb is camino,
S7: which means that he communicated great truth to come using symbols.
S7: and these symbols stand for true realities behind them. But
S7: the symbols themselves are often mysterious and difficult, but with
S7: adequate preparation and understanding and research and study. Those all
S7: those visions are understandable to a significant degree. Not every
S7: detail necessarily. Uh, and and so it's a wonderful and
S7: rewarding book.
S8: Yeah.
S1: So because this is your passion and because I think
S1: there are people who are curious but afraid to step
S1: into it. How does one start with the book of Revelation?
S1: What's the best way to read that book?
S7: Well, to read it from cover to cover for one thing,
S7: to begin that way, and then remember that every other
S7: verse in the book of Revelation, on average, is a
S7: reference to Old Testament truth, an Old Testament person or
S7: event or symbol or something. So the key to the
S7: Book of Revelation is to know the Old Testament. It's
S7: a prolific book that is deeply, deeply dependent upon the
S7: Old Testament, but never quotes it explicitly. It's an amazing
S7: phenomenon in itself.
S8: Yeah.
S1: Exactly right. And you cannot look at revelation without looking
S1: at Ezekiel and Daniel. The intersection here is just unbelievably profound.
S8: So when.
S7: Well, you know. Well, let me just conclude here by
S7: saying something else about the book of revelation, because it
S7: ties into supernatural encounters very graphically and fully. And at
S7: the end of the book, we're told that all of
S7: this was written so that we could be ready for
S7: the Lord's return. And so I cover the rapture there
S7: because of its, uh, the invitation for Jesus to come quickly.
S7: And it's tied. Then to first Thessalonians four and first
S7: Corinthians 15. And I want to say to each of
S7: your listeners that all the patterns I deal with in
S7: the book, there's over 240, uh, different supernatural encounters. But
S7: I ask three simple questions. What happened? What did it
S7: mean then? And what does it mean now?
S1: And what a great way to end our conversation, James,
S1: with questions that will make us go deeper, think better,
S1: and get really into the Word of God. Let me
S1: just tell our friends again the name of your new book.
S1: It's called Supernatural Encounters Divine and Demonic, written by a
S1: man who has taught the scriptures for decades and who
S1: loves the Word of God. So if this is an
S1: interest to you, and I don't know how, it can't
S1: be an interest to every single one of us. It's
S1: what we know a little bit of what we can't
S1: see and yet is 1,000% reality. Now let that sink
S1: in for a little bit. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? Again,
S1: we just don't have those kinds of eyes. But boy,
S1: the reality of the supernatural is all around us. Great
S1: comfort in that. Greater is he that is in us
S1: than he that is in the world. So this isn't
S1: about being afraid. This is about understanding who's the victor,
S1: who's the conqueror, and who is the one that sets
S1: the captive free. James. Thank you. It is an absolutely
S1: fascinating book. Again, I've got it on my website. If
S1: you're interested in the market with Janet Parshall. Click on
S1: the red box. It will take you to the information
S1: page and you can learn how to get your own copy.
S1: Doctor DeYoung, thank you for a great conversation. We'll see
S1: you next time, friends.