WEBVTT - Hour 1: Supernatural Encounters 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.920 and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.520 and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.440 But before you go, I want to tell you about 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.720 And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.600 going out into the night sky and looking up and 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.439 seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.560 about God? And are you not in a moment of 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.960 awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.600 of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.800 that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.240 wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.480 of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.879 from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.160 a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.599 this sense of awe through the work that they do. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.120 In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.440 it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.170 because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you 0:01:00.170 --> 0:01:03.530 to walk through the chapters written by people who all 0:01:03.530 --> 0:01:06.290 have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes 0:01:06.290 --> 0:01:09.090 to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an 0:01:09.090 --> 0:01:11.410 amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, 0:01:11.410 --> 0:01:16.250 just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask 0:01:16.250 --> 0:01:19.130 for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll 0:01:19.130 --> 0:01:20.410 send it right off to you as my way of 0:01:20.410 --> 0:01:22.930 saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or 0:01:22.930 --> 0:01:24.929 you can go online to in the market with Janet 0:01:24.930 --> 0:01:28.690 Parshall and you're also on the website, consider becoming a 0:01:28.690 --> 0:01:31.410 partial partner. Those are people who give every single month 0:01:31.410 --> 0:01:33.490 at a level of their own choosing. You always get 0:01:33.490 --> 0:01:35.369 the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get 0:01:35.370 --> 0:01:38.209 a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio 0:01:38.209 --> 0:01:42.370 piece just for my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 0:01:42.370 --> 0:01:46.050 or the website in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider 0:01:46.050 --> 0:01:49.290 becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool. 0:01:49.290 --> 0:01:53.090 Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. 0:01:54.090 --> 0:01:55.610 Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 0:01:55.890 --> 0:01:58.260 The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 0:01:58.300 --> 0:02:00.380 Americans worshiping government over God. 0:02:00.740 --> 0:02:04.100 Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years. 0:02:04.100 --> 0:02:06.180 The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 0:02:21.419 --> 0:02:24.419 Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Oh, 0:02:24.580 --> 0:02:27.179 are we going to have a fascinating conversation? In fact, 0:02:27.180 --> 0:02:29.140 I have to tell you right up front, there is 0:02:29.139 --> 0:02:32.740 so much excellent information in the book we're going to 0:02:32.740 --> 0:02:35.779 talk about. That will be the basis for a wellspring 0:02:35.820 --> 0:02:38.700 of conversations on a topic that has everybody saved or 0:02:38.700 --> 0:02:41.660 not interested. I'm just not going to get it done 0:02:41.660 --> 0:02:43.860 in an hour. So I'm going to talk about some 0:02:43.860 --> 0:02:46.180 of it. In the meantime, you're going to get another copy. 0:02:46.180 --> 0:02:47.820 Just go to the website, figure out how you can 0:02:47.820 --> 0:02:50.220 get it, pick up a copy for yourself. But this 0:02:50.220 --> 0:02:55.820 is a marvelous book. Here's the title supernatural encounters divine 0:02:56.060 --> 0:03:00.910 and demonic dreams, visions and prophecy. Past and present. And 0:03:00.910 --> 0:03:03.750 this is about exposing the occult. See, I told you, 0:03:03.750 --> 0:03:06.110 I have your presence right now. I got to tell you. 0:03:06.150 --> 0:03:08.790 We know that Hollywood is interested in this. We know 0:03:08.790 --> 0:03:11.630 that horror films, for example, are the number one genre 0:03:11.630 --> 0:03:15.110 in film. What does that say about the human condition? Thanks, 0:03:15.110 --> 0:03:18.630 but no thanks. But there is an interest. I also believe, 0:03:18.669 --> 0:03:20.829 because God has placed eternity in our hearts, that we 0:03:20.830 --> 0:03:24.829 all believe that there's something else, someone else, something beyond. 0:03:25.350 --> 0:03:27.150 And then the Bible tells us, for those of us 0:03:27.150 --> 0:03:29.230 who are followers of Christ and believe in the inerrancy 0:03:29.230 --> 0:03:32.550 of His Word, that we should entertain strangers, well, because 0:03:32.550 --> 0:03:36.230 we might be entertaining angels. So. And Ephesians remind us 0:03:36.230 --> 0:03:38.510 that the battle is not against flesh and blood. Thank you, Lord, 0:03:38.510 --> 0:03:40.590 that we can't see them with our little mortals minds. 0:03:40.590 --> 0:03:43.270 We'd pass out cold, I'm quite sure. But that battle 0:03:43.270 --> 0:03:45.750 is battle is being waged in the heavenlies, and our 0:03:45.750 --> 0:03:48.230 great King is the victor. But I love it when 0:03:48.230 --> 0:03:50.390 someone who understands the Word of God comes along and 0:03:50.390 --> 0:03:53.550 teaches us, because it is a fascinating conversation, and I 0:03:53.550 --> 0:03:55.800 think it does several things. Number one, it reminds us 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:57.680 to get dressed in the morning. You know that suit 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.040 of armor that's hanging in your closet? Yeah. You're supposed 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.000 to put that on every day. If you don't, good luck. 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.000 Because it's a battle out there. It's tough out there. 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:05.760 And so you and I need to suit up when 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:07.480 we get up and we go out. And so we 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.920 need to understand that this is real, not to be afraid. 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:11.840 Come on. Greater is he that is in us than 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.000 he that is in the world. But the reality of 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.320 this war is something that cannot be avoided or negated. 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.560 Doctor James DeYoung knows that he has been a professor 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.560 of New Testament at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.000 years and years and years, retired in 2015. His most 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:30.039 recent works deal with eschatology. His articles have appeared in 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.400 Bibliotheca Sacra. Just gave my husband a renewal to that 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.200 for Christmas. It was his favorite Christmas present, by the way. 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.520 Master's Seminary Journal and Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.760 He has co-authored Beyond the Obvious, Discover the Deeper Meaning 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.720 of Scripture, and contributed to the evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.600 as well as the Gospels and the Scriptures of Israel. 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.120 His brand new book, and the one we just talked about, 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.419 has contributions from Tracy Pollan, his friend, and his son 0:04:56.420 --> 0:05:00.020 James as well. It is a marvelous book filled with illustrations, 0:05:00.020 --> 0:05:02.700 and boy, it caught my attention and I'm so glad 0:05:02.700 --> 0:05:05.339 that I had an opportunity to talk to doctor DeYoung 0:05:05.380 --> 0:05:09.580 years ago when he wrote a book that was a compassionate, eloquent, 0:05:09.580 --> 0:05:13.580 biblical rebuttal of The Shack. And if you have not 0:05:13.580 --> 0:05:15.779 heard that interview, if you've not read Doctor Deyoung's book 0:05:15.779 --> 0:05:18.660 on that, you need to, because that thing was saturated 0:05:18.660 --> 0:05:21.060 in heresy, and he really did a marvelous job of 0:05:21.060 --> 0:05:24.100 breaking it all down. And I'm so thankful. So, James, 0:05:24.100 --> 0:05:26.460 thank you very much for joining me again. We had 0:05:26.460 --> 0:05:28.980 a memorable conversation in the past. I believe that this 0:05:28.980 --> 0:05:32.219 will be the first of many conversations on this book, 0:05:32.420 --> 0:05:34.339 because there's just too much to cover in an hour. 0:05:34.339 --> 0:05:35.740 And I was going to ask you a question, but 0:05:35.740 --> 0:05:38.220 I think there's a sneak peak in what I just said. 0:05:38.220 --> 0:05:41.659 Because you are interested in eschatology, it seems to me 0:05:41.660 --> 0:05:46.620 that conversations about supernatural encounters just follow suit from that. 0:05:46.620 --> 0:05:47.539 Am I right or wrong? 0:05:48.220 --> 0:05:50.980 You're very much correct, Janet. Thank you so much for 0:05:50.980 --> 0:05:51.940 having me today. 0:05:52.350 --> 0:05:54.670 Oh, it's a delight to have you here. So this 0:05:54.670 --> 0:05:57.589 is an interesting topic. I remember years ago, Billy Graham 0:05:57.589 --> 0:06:00.110 wrote a small little book about angels. I devoured that 0:06:00.110 --> 0:06:03.870 book because he did a wonderful job of explaining angel ology. 0:06:03.870 --> 0:06:05.590 And we know that the culture, when we let the 0:06:05.589 --> 0:06:08.790 culture teach us theology and we shouldn't. They talk about 0:06:08.790 --> 0:06:10.710 demons all the time, and then they also turn around 0:06:10.710 --> 0:06:13.030 and they tell us that we should be worshiping angels. 0:06:13.029 --> 0:06:15.710 You point out very clearly that that is not the case, 0:06:15.710 --> 0:06:18.670 but you break this book up into several sections, which 0:06:18.670 --> 0:06:23.910 I found absolutely fascinating. And you start most interestingly by this, 0:06:23.910 --> 0:06:25.830 and I'm going to read the chapter. It's part one 0:06:25.870 --> 0:06:31.150 imagining Supernatural Encounters in Israel at War. What an interesting 0:06:31.150 --> 0:06:35.110 place to start a conversation about supernatural encounters. Why begin 0:06:35.110 --> 0:06:35.789 with Israel? 0:06:36.910 --> 0:06:41.550 Well, uh, the history of how this book came to 0:06:41.550 --> 0:06:46.390 pass is, uh, enlightening for myself and perhaps for your listeners. 0:06:46.589 --> 0:06:52.000 I remember reading books about the occult and about supernatural 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.920 encounters in other sources. And one day I said to 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.080 my wife, I'm going to write a book about supernatural encounters. 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:04.200 And that took off in various directions, and I finally 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.760 finalized a particular direction I wanted to go. And so 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.760 that consumes the bulk of the book. And then I 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.720 thought of adding a couple other things that would contemporize 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.400 the biblical message. So that's how this book came to pass. 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.000 That's so interesting. Now, having said that, it's interesting that 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.360 you would start with Israel. Why Israel? 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:29.520 Well, uh, because when I started, uh, thinking about this book, 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.240 the recent events that had happened in Israel with the 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:37.640 attack of Hamas on October the 7th, 2023 was in 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:41.920 my mind. And, uh, I had been reading about supernatural 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.920 encounters all through Israel's history, especially of the evil one 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.050 that take place in the territory that we know as Gaza. 0:07:50.770 --> 0:07:55.050 And I thought, you know, my son, who has a 0:07:55.050 --> 0:07:58.690 great imagination and wants to write and has written some fiction, 0:07:58.890 --> 0:08:02.930 he could contribute a contemporary fictional account of what happened 0:08:02.970 --> 0:08:08.050 on that particular day and how it unfolded as two 0:08:08.050 --> 0:08:11.370 children who had been whose parents had been killed by Hamas, 0:08:12.170 --> 0:08:15.970 are delivered by God's supernatural agents, as my son called them. 0:08:15.970 --> 0:08:19.490 And those are angels. And it took place near Mount Hermon, 0:08:19.690 --> 0:08:22.730 which perhaps your listeners are acquainted with the fact that 0:08:22.730 --> 0:08:26.970 that is associated with the place that fallen angels first 0:08:26.970 --> 0:08:30.450 engaged to humanity. So anyway, that all came together in 0:08:30.450 --> 0:08:31.610 different parts like that. 0:08:32.090 --> 0:08:35.290 Wow. Absolutely fascinating. You brought up your son. Talk about 0:08:35.290 --> 0:08:37.010 the role that your son played in this book. And 0:08:37.010 --> 0:08:37.890 Tracy as well. 0:08:38.970 --> 0:08:42.689 Well, uh, after thinking about how I wanted to write 0:08:42.690 --> 0:08:45.770 my part. And I'll get back to that, uh, in 0:08:45.809 --> 0:08:49.020 the format that I chose, I thought, you know, this 0:08:49.020 --> 0:08:52.540 book needs to be contemporized so that people don't simply 0:08:52.540 --> 0:08:55.940 read about the Bible supernatural encounters and think that God 0:08:55.940 --> 0:09:00.420 no longer is encountering mankind, nor are demons any longer 0:09:00.460 --> 0:09:06.300 doing that. And so I had made a friend, uh, Tracy, 0:09:06.860 --> 0:09:10.380 who went into the occult in a very deep way 0:09:10.740 --> 0:09:14.140 and spent several years there and explored all kinds of 0:09:14.140 --> 0:09:19.020 ways to understand, uh, life and what that may have 0:09:19.020 --> 0:09:22.260 to offer. And so I invited her to participate in 0:09:22.260 --> 0:09:25.700 it that way and write part three, giving her personal 0:09:25.700 --> 0:09:28.340 testimony of being involved in the occult and how to 0:09:28.340 --> 0:09:29.500 be delivered from it. 0:09:30.260 --> 0:09:31.980 Let me stop you there if I can, James, because 0:09:31.980 --> 0:09:33.660 you hear the music, let me pick it up exactly 0:09:33.660 --> 0:09:37.460 at that point. So Tracy's very compelling story of getting 0:09:37.460 --> 0:09:39.580 involved in this stuff is a part of the new 0:09:39.580 --> 0:09:43.339 book that doctor DeYoung has written called Supernatural Encounters, and 0:09:43.340 --> 0:09:47.429 his son also played an important role novelizing The beginning. Fabulous. 0:09:47.429 --> 0:09:57.110 Back after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves 0:09:57.110 --> 0:09:59.350 us so deeply? Or why beauty takes our breath away? 0:09:59.590 --> 0:10:01.870 My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book 0:10:01.870 --> 0:10:04.510 that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's 0:10:04.510 --> 0:10:07.750 called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of 0:10:07.750 --> 0:10:11.070 life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your 0:10:11.110 --> 0:10:12.790 copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a 0:10:12.830 --> 0:10:15.670 gift of any amount to in the market, call 877 0:10:15.670 --> 0:10:19.430 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in 0:10:19.470 --> 0:10:26.069 the market with Janet Parshall. Fascinating topic. The supernatural. It 0:10:26.070 --> 0:10:29.470 is real. And don't let the world teach you theology. 0:10:29.510 --> 0:10:32.110 Thank you, Doctor Michael Easley, for reminding us of that 0:10:32.110 --> 0:10:34.550 on a regular basis. Doctor James DeYoung is with us, 0:10:34.550 --> 0:10:39.470 taught for years at the New Testament at Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon, 0:10:39.470 --> 0:10:41.310 and he was a Prof of New Testament. Wouldn't you 0:10:41.309 --> 0:10:44.070 love to have sat in his class? So Tracy's story 0:10:44.070 --> 0:10:46.439 and by the way, James, you're taking this out and 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.839 you're going to turn that into, like, a standalone for 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:50.000 her story, are you not? 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.480 Yes, I'm planning to. Already there is a booklet that 0:10:53.480 --> 0:11:00.240 we've just published, uh, called Visions and Dreams. Uh, how? Basically, 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:04.920 Sophie Lin, that's her pen name. Uh, got involved in 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.920 the occult, got deeply involved. So much so that she 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.920 despaired of life and thought of suicide, and then repented 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.000 as she called out to God to save her. And 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:18.480 Jesus answered her prayer and entered into her life and 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.280 transformed her, made her into a new person in Christ. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.600 And all of that is told in a short, beautifully 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:27.199 illustrated booklet that we're beginning to distribute. 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.680 Excellent, excellent. And I can't wait for our friends to 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:32.200 get a copy of that as well. It'll be a 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.439 wonderful witnessing tool. Now, I don't want to avoid your son, 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.240 because I just want to encapsulate what he did again 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.600 at the beginning. He writes this wonderful. It's a little novella, 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.250 if I can put it that way, about using angels 0:11:44.250 --> 0:11:46.170 to tell a story that ties back to what's happening 0:11:46.170 --> 0:11:49.290 in Israel. And I'm so grateful for his contribution. Let 0:11:49.290 --> 0:11:51.170 me just ask you a question. And this is not 0:11:51.170 --> 0:11:53.690 the novel part. This is the reality part. Do you 0:11:53.690 --> 0:11:55.890 think that there are angels involved in what's going on 0:11:55.890 --> 0:11:57.089 in the Middle East right now? 0:11:57.650 --> 0:12:00.810 Oh of course. In fact, you notice I didn't hesitate 0:12:00.809 --> 0:12:01.930 to answer that question. 0:12:02.690 --> 0:12:03.410 That's right. 0:12:03.809 --> 0:12:06.610 If nowhere else in Gaza and I did this in 0:12:06.610 --> 0:12:10.530 an article for Prophecy Watchers magazine, I trace how that 0:12:10.570 --> 0:12:13.809 the present war or conflict going on between Israel and 0:12:13.809 --> 0:12:18.850 Hamas in Gaza is simply the modern counterpart of a 0:12:19.450 --> 0:12:23.290 demonic power and influence in that area of Israel that 0:12:23.290 --> 0:12:27.770 goes all the way back 2000 years or so before Christ, 0:12:28.090 --> 0:12:31.850 and after that time, during the time of Moses, and 0:12:31.850 --> 0:12:35.810 then the later time of under Joshua, when he was 0:12:35.809 --> 0:12:38.370 commanded by God, to go in and conquer all of 0:12:38.370 --> 0:12:42.020 the land of Israel. And he did much of that, 0:12:42.020 --> 0:12:45.100 but failed to conquer certain parts in the North, and 0:12:45.100 --> 0:12:48.780 then also along the Mediterranean Sea, which is the Gaza 0:12:48.820 --> 0:12:52.340 Strip as we know it today. And Gaza is named 0:12:52.340 --> 0:12:54.900 in the Old Testament as part of the inheritance that 0:12:54.900 --> 0:13:01.540 went to Ham, Noah's son under Canaan and Israel under Joshua. 0:13:01.540 --> 0:13:04.380 Israel failed to capture that area, and it has been 0:13:04.380 --> 0:13:08.740 a hotbed of demonic activity and idolatry ever since. And 0:13:08.740 --> 0:13:12.060 so it's not surprising that these kinds of things continue 0:13:12.059 --> 0:13:15.100 to happen in history and even in the modern time now. 0:13:15.420 --> 0:13:17.380 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, if 0:13:17.420 --> 0:13:19.580 you just stop and you realize the importance that Israel 0:13:19.580 --> 0:13:22.820 has played in the past, currently making headlines every day 0:13:22.820 --> 0:13:24.820 and the role it will definitely play in the future, 0:13:25.179 --> 0:13:27.540 you can't look at that without understanding that it has 0:13:27.540 --> 0:13:29.540 to be surrounded by spiritual warfare. 0:13:30.420 --> 0:13:35.380 Yes. Wow. I even insert the incident of David fighting 0:13:35.380 --> 0:13:41.040 Goliath because Goliath is from Gath and, um, is a 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:45.599 giant and an evident, uh, descendant, ultimately of the Nephilim 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.120 back in Genesis. And, uh, David's fight with Goliath, he 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.240 understood right away to be a spiritual struggle between his 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:58.320 God and his God, Jehovah, or Yahweh and the God 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.760 of Goliath. And, uh, so David saw it as a 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.600 spiritual battle. Right on. Even though the older fighters there 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.880 did not. And it was, uh, told in great length, 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.240 because it sets the stage for why David is qualified 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:13.880 to be the first king of Israel. 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:18.400 Um, and there's a linkage, is there not, between Philistines 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:19.600 and Palestine? 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:21.520 Yes, absolutely. 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:24.400 Talk about that to our friends who don't understand that, 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.400 because I think, particularly with today's headlines, that's important to know. 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.720 Well, uh, the Philistines are the people who lived along 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.720 that edge of the Mediterranean Sea and perhaps other parts. And, uh, 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.930 they give the name Palestine to the land that they occupied. 0:14:40.290 --> 0:14:44.170 And so the modern counterpart of that is, uh. The 0:14:44.290 --> 0:14:49.490 Palestinian effort in Israel. And so there's this connection all 0:14:49.490 --> 0:14:54.130 the way back to ancient history. So the designated land 0:14:54.130 --> 0:14:59.050 from a biblical standpoint is Canaan or Israel. And, uh, 0:14:59.250 --> 0:15:03.290 the pagan identity is that with the Philistines or Palestine. 0:15:04.450 --> 0:15:06.770 Fascinating. All right. So in deference to time, let me 0:15:06.770 --> 0:15:09.290 just talk about where you go to. A huge chunk 0:15:09.290 --> 0:15:12.410 of the book, you call it supernatural encounters in the 0:15:12.410 --> 0:15:15.890 Bible and in history from Genesis to Revelation and beyond. 0:15:15.890 --> 0:15:19.010 And this is just the big chunk of the book 0:15:19.010 --> 0:15:21.170 as well. It should be. And this is why I 0:15:21.170 --> 0:15:22.850 have your number, and I'm going to track you down, 0:15:22.890 --> 0:15:24.810 doctor DeYoung, because we're never going to get through all 0:15:24.810 --> 0:15:27.090 of this in one conversation. And I want to move 0:15:27.090 --> 0:15:31.130 through this slowly and thoughtfully, because there's a rich theology 0:15:31.130 --> 0:15:33.530 in all of this. So let me just start with 0:15:33.530 --> 0:15:36.410 the beginning. And it's I love the fact that God 0:15:36.450 --> 0:15:38.580 doesn't tell us everything. I think he wants us to 0:15:38.580 --> 0:15:40.540 be curious. More importantly, I think he wants us to 0:15:40.540 --> 0:15:43.020 be hungry. If I can use the words of Paul Harvey, 0:15:43.020 --> 0:15:45.660 that famous radio broadcaster, he wants us to get the 0:15:45.660 --> 0:15:48.300 rest of the story. So we get this little sneak 0:15:48.300 --> 0:15:51.220 peek that there is a rebellion in heaven, and we 0:15:51.220 --> 0:15:55.060 know that this worship leader eventually becomes Satan, takes a 0:15:55.060 --> 0:15:57.820 third of the angels and there is a rebellion. What 0:15:57.820 --> 0:15:59.420 else can we glean? What else do we know we 0:15:59.420 --> 0:16:01.820 don't want to add to or take away from Scripture? 0:16:01.820 --> 0:16:04.060 But what do we need to know that is there 0:16:04.060 --> 0:16:05.220 for our benefit? 0:16:05.980 --> 0:16:08.420 Well, I think we can make the conclusion that this 0:16:08.420 --> 0:16:11.740 rebellion by Satan or Lucifer, as he was known then, 0:16:12.940 --> 0:16:16.140 occurred before God ever created the world as we know it, 0:16:16.420 --> 0:16:19.060 because all of a sudden he appears in the garden 0:16:19.540 --> 0:16:23.260 as a fallen being and tempts Adam and Eve and 0:16:23.260 --> 0:16:28.460 brings about through this temptation the fall of humanity. And 0:16:28.460 --> 0:16:32.260 so this is the one of the greatest, uh, supernatural 0:16:32.260 --> 0:16:35.510 encounters in the entire Bible because of the consequences. But 0:16:35.510 --> 0:16:38.430 it's a demonic encounter, of course. And so all the 0:16:38.430 --> 0:16:41.830 human race is plunged into evil. And we still experience 0:16:41.830 --> 0:16:43.630 that today. The results of that fall. 0:16:44.030 --> 0:16:47.030 Yeah, 100%. I'm coming up to a break, but when 0:16:47.030 --> 0:16:49.390 we come back, let me talk a little bit about 0:16:49.710 --> 0:16:52.310 the Tower of Babel. I wonder how often people think 0:16:52.310 --> 0:16:54.990 of that as part of the supernatural. And then I 0:16:54.990 --> 0:16:58.070 do want to move to Abraham and Lot. And what 0:16:58.070 --> 0:17:00.790 happens in the city of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is 0:17:00.790 --> 0:17:05.030 so grotesquely in this postmodern world, misrepresented. It is a 0:17:05.030 --> 0:17:08.750 fascinating book and is just chock full of good theology 0:17:08.910 --> 0:17:11.310 and stories about the supernatural. And come to think of it, 0:17:11.310 --> 0:17:14.070 just realize that we live in this three dimensional world. 0:17:14.070 --> 0:17:15.909 It seems rich and full, does it not? But oh, 0:17:15.950 --> 0:17:20.030 it's nothing compared to what is beyond. There is something beyond. 0:17:20.070 --> 0:17:23.830 And that's why doctor DeYoung writes about supernatural encounters, both 0:17:23.830 --> 0:17:26.550 divine and demonic, in his brand new book. We're going 0:17:26.590 --> 0:17:27.990 to take a break and come right back. By the way, 0:17:27.990 --> 0:17:29.990 if you're interested in a copy of this book, I 0:17:30.030 --> 0:17:31.870 hope you are. Just go to In the Market with 0:17:31.869 --> 0:17:35.440 Janet Parshall Org right below the description of the day. 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.240 There's a red box. It says program details and audio. 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.280 Clicking on it will take you to the information page, 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:41.800 and you can click on through to learn how to 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:53.720 get your copy back after this. We're visiting with Doctor 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.800 James DeYoung, who has been a professor of New Testament 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.760 at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for years and years 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.480 and years. He's a wonderful writer. His works have appeared 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.160 in Bibliotheca Sacra, master's Seminary Journal, the list goes on. 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.640 His brand new book is called Supernatural Encounters Divine and 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.960 Demonic Dreams, Vision and Prophecy, Past and Present. It's an 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.760 absolutely fascinating book. So I'm glad I'm going to do 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.480 this slowly because so many of these stories are just rich. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.119 So take me to the Tower of Babel. And again, James, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.359 I think because of the size of our audience and 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.320 to God be the glory, I don't want to presume 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.800 that everybody's at the same starting space scripturally, and for 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:31.159 a lot of people, they might not even know the 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.170 story of the Tower of Babel. So teach us. 0:18:33.850 --> 0:18:37.050 Well. The Tower of Babel is recorded in Genesis ten 0:18:37.050 --> 0:18:41.649 and 11. It was the attempt of humanity after the 0:18:41.650 --> 0:18:46.530 flood of humanity is represented by the descendants of Noah, 0:18:46.850 --> 0:18:50.530 and he had three sons, and among them were Shem, Ham, 0:18:50.530 --> 0:18:54.449 and Japheth. And the descendants of Ham especially turn out 0:18:54.450 --> 0:18:57.850 to be evil in their orientation eventually, but at the 0:18:57.850 --> 0:19:02.129 Tower of Babel, after mankind began to multiply again under 0:19:02.130 --> 0:19:06.570 the descendants of Noah, they decide to build a tower 0:19:06.609 --> 0:19:09.530 as it is described, and a city and to local 0:19:10.250 --> 0:19:14.450 locally do this in a particular place, and I believe 0:19:14.450 --> 0:19:18.650 that they were trying to represent or replicate what had 0:19:18.650 --> 0:19:22.250 happened before the flood in the attempt to transgress into 0:19:22.290 --> 0:19:26.850 God's realm, uh, uninvited, that is, they were trying to 0:19:26.850 --> 0:19:31.700 bring heaven to earth in their own means and by 0:19:31.700 --> 0:19:35.260 their evil ways. And so the Tower of Babel represents 0:19:35.300 --> 0:19:38.859 a replication or a duplication of that event that caused 0:19:38.859 --> 0:19:43.180 the flood in the first place. First place. So, uh, 0:19:43.180 --> 0:19:45.620 as they're building the tower, God looks upon this as 0:19:45.619 --> 0:19:49.220 an evil act. It is a direct failure to obey 0:19:49.220 --> 0:19:52.300 his command, to disperse and multiply and fill the earth. 0:19:53.220 --> 0:19:59.780 So God evaluated this as an evil act. So he, uh, sends, uh, 0:20:00.660 --> 0:20:07.260 multiple languages among the builders so that they cannot understand, uh, their, their, uh, 0:20:07.859 --> 0:20:13.420 aim and project. And all of humanity represented at that point, uh, 0:20:13.420 --> 0:20:17.580 need to disperse, and they finally do so and, and 0:20:17.580 --> 0:20:21.260 end up obeying God's command to fill the earth. So 0:20:21.300 --> 0:20:25.020 God's evaluation of this was a very evil intent. And 0:20:25.020 --> 0:20:28.820 by confusing their languages, the building of the tower had 0:20:28.820 --> 0:20:29.590 to stop. 0:20:30.310 --> 0:20:32.590 No, let me linger here a little bit, because I 0:20:32.590 --> 0:20:34.990 think there are some things worth ruminating on. Number one, 0:20:34.990 --> 0:20:37.950 there's no survivors from the flood, save Noah and his 0:20:37.950 --> 0:20:40.870 sons and their families. So one would have thought, being 0:20:40.869 --> 0:20:45.030 an eyewitness to total global destruction, which will never happen again. 0:20:45.030 --> 0:20:47.030 Thank you, Lord, for the sign of your covenant with 0:20:47.030 --> 0:20:49.469 the rainbow that they would have said, now we know 0:20:49.470 --> 0:20:51.790 how to live. He is the one true God. We'll 0:20:51.790 --> 0:20:54.590 worship him always. We'll teach the generations to come, to 0:20:54.630 --> 0:20:57.870 worship him always. There's that basic sin nature of man. 0:20:57.910 --> 0:21:01.550 So even though humanity has been wiped out once again, 0:21:01.550 --> 0:21:04.030 sin starts raising its ugly head. I think that says 0:21:04.030 --> 0:21:07.190 something about the human condition and how desperate we are 0:21:07.230 --> 0:21:10.109 for a savior, because they had a perfect opportunity to say, boy, 0:21:10.109 --> 0:21:12.470 we're never going to do that again. And exactly the 0:21:12.470 --> 0:21:16.710 opposite happens, which I think is so interesting. So this please. 0:21:16.750 --> 0:21:20.070 You know, after after enough time, we all forget God's graces. 0:21:20.350 --> 0:21:24.430 And through successive generations, that story of salvation and deliverance 0:21:24.430 --> 0:21:27.590 of the past becomes more and more faint and remote. 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:33.320 And we replicate and duplicate our evil rebellion against God 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.040 in subsequent generations. 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.840 Such a good point, and such a reminder to stay 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.760 grounded in the word close to him, because all we 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.760 like sheep have gone astray. That's something that we can't 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.960 forget about the human condition and the story of Noah 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:48.760 and the flood and his sons is a perfect example. 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.879 Total annihilation saved Noah and his family, and yet sin 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.440 creeps its way back into the world again. It's just amazing. 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.440 So how do angels play in this story, James? 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.840 Well, in that particular story, I'm not sure. Um, but 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:08.600 certainly in the subsequent events, uh, that happen in Genesis, uh, 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:13.240 they certainly do intervene. And, uh, the story of Sodom 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.600 and Gomorrah is a classic example of this, really on 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:22.760 an unprecedented scale, never before experienced and never since. The 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.879 biblical record of Sodom and Gomorrah starts in Genesis 13, 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.100 where it is noted in verse 13 that they had 0:22:29.100 --> 0:22:32.540 an evil record alright already. And so in chapter 18, 0:22:32.780 --> 0:22:38.260 three visitors come to Abraham, who's God's appointed, uh, person 0:22:38.260 --> 0:22:42.139 for the subsequent generations that will eventually, eventually bring about 0:22:42.140 --> 0:22:46.659 the nation of Israel. Uh, two of these visitors to 0:22:46.700 --> 0:22:52.300 Abraham are angels, and one is Jesus Christ in a theophany. Theophany? 0:22:52.780 --> 0:22:57.100 An appearance of God in the Old Testament. And, uh, 0:22:57.300 --> 0:23:00.460 the angels are sent there to investigate whether or not 0:23:00.500 --> 0:23:03.940 Sodom and Gomorrah are as evil as the report is, 0:23:04.540 --> 0:23:09.340 has been. And, uh, they go off to Sodom and, uh, 0:23:09.460 --> 0:23:14.379 they go to lot's house, who is a nephew of Abraham. And, uh, 0:23:14.380 --> 0:23:17.980 while they're in there, the men of Sodom, men of Sodom, 0:23:18.180 --> 0:23:22.460 encircle it and demand to have the two angels come 0:23:22.460 --> 0:23:25.750 out to them who have appeared as men. And so 0:23:25.750 --> 0:23:31.189 these angels, uh, uh, refused to, uh, lot refused to 0:23:31.350 --> 0:23:34.150 allow them to leave the house and, and protect them. 0:23:34.150 --> 0:23:37.590 And so the angels caused blindness upon, uh, the men 0:23:37.630 --> 0:23:39.910 of Sodom, and they are forced to break off their 0:23:39.910 --> 0:23:46.190 attempt to, uh, harm and to sexually, uh, violate the 0:23:46.190 --> 0:23:53.150 two men who are really angels. And so the warned 0:23:53.190 --> 0:23:58.109 destruction of Sodom takes place. And, uh, Abraham is deeply 0:23:58.109 --> 0:24:02.869 concerned about this as he's foretold. And so he intercedes 0:24:02.869 --> 0:24:05.430 on behalf of lot and others that may be in 0:24:05.430 --> 0:24:08.750 Sodom and starts with 50 people. If there are 50 0:24:08.750 --> 0:24:11.510 people that are righteous, he pleads that God would not 0:24:11.510 --> 0:24:14.190 destroy them. And God says, yes, I will not destroy 0:24:14.190 --> 0:24:16.830 it if there are 50 people there. And in the 0:24:16.830 --> 0:24:19.629 middle of this discussion, uh, we are told one of 0:24:19.630 --> 0:24:22.830 the basic principles of the entire Old Testament. Uh, will 0:24:22.830 --> 0:24:25.360 not God, the judge of all the earth, do right. 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:27.840 And so he goes all the way down to ten people, 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:30.600 and there are not even ten people there. But God 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:33.879 still spare those who are righteous, namely lot and his family. 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:39.560 Exactly, exactly. So for postmodern people who are reinventing the scriptures, 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:42.240 this has nothing to do with the act of being inhospitable, 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:45.440 by the way. Doctor James Young is with us. Fascinating book. 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:49.040 It's called Supernatural Encounters Divine and Demonic. It is chock 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:59.040 full of stories from Scripture back after this. Our team 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:01.920 of partial partners is growing, and I love communicating behind 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:03.800 the scenes with this special group of friends who are 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:06.480 devoted to giving a monthly gift in the market. Our 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.600 partial partners receive private emails direct from me on issues 0:25:09.600 --> 0:25:11.760 we don't address on radio, and I even send a 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:14.680 weekly audio message straight from my heart to yours. Ready 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:20.199 to become a partial partner? Call (877) 588-7758 or go to 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:26.810 in the market with Janet Parshall Doctor James DeYoung is 0:25:26.850 --> 0:25:29.450 with us. He has been professor of New Testament at 0:25:29.450 --> 0:25:33.250 Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for years and years and years. 0:25:33.250 --> 0:25:36.930 His most recent works deal with eschatology. His articles have 0:25:36.930 --> 0:25:40.729 appeared in Bibliotheca Sacra, master Seminary Journal, and the Journal 0:25:40.730 --> 0:25:45.330 of the Evangelical Theological Society. He has co-authored Beyond the Obvious, 0:25:45.330 --> 0:25:48.450 Discover the Deeper Meaning of Scripture, and contributed to the 0:25:48.490 --> 0:25:52.050 Evangelical Commentary on the Bible and the Gospels and the 0:25:52.050 --> 0:25:56.810 Scriptures of Israel. His newest book is called Supernatural Encounters 0:25:56.810 --> 0:26:02.250 Divine and Demonic Dreams, Visions and Prophecy, Past and Present. James, 0:26:02.250 --> 0:26:05.330 I was thinking during the break, the book is just 0:26:05.330 --> 0:26:07.449 rich with you walking right through scripture with all of 0:26:07.450 --> 0:26:10.850 these angelic manifestations, both demonic and divine. But let me 0:26:10.850 --> 0:26:12.369 just pull back, pull over to the side of the 0:26:12.369 --> 0:26:14.850 road and hit the stop for a minute. What is 0:26:14.850 --> 0:26:17.370 the purpose of angels? What does the scripture. I'm going 0:26:17.410 --> 0:26:19.129 to give you a cluster of questions here. What's the 0:26:19.130 --> 0:26:22.420 purpose of angels? Is there a hierarchy in Scripture? Why 0:26:22.420 --> 0:26:24.540 are there only to the best of my knowledge, two 0:26:24.580 --> 0:26:28.740 angels whose names are named? So in other words, being 0:26:28.740 --> 0:26:31.020 very careful with the word not wanting to add to 0:26:31.020 --> 0:26:33.540 or take away from what does the Bible tell us 0:26:33.540 --> 0:26:34.740 about angels? 0:26:35.500 --> 0:26:38.859 Well, I think, pardon me in answer to your first question. 0:26:39.180 --> 0:26:42.780 According to Hebrews chapter one verse 14, angels are sent 0:26:42.780 --> 0:26:45.780 forth to minister on behalf of us who are believers. 0:26:46.100 --> 0:26:51.220 That's the primary, uh, challenge or commitment that angels have 0:26:51.340 --> 0:26:55.100 during our age. They also reveal God's word is told 0:26:55.100 --> 0:26:57.740 to us in the book of Galatians that the law 0:26:58.300 --> 0:27:02.300 came from God through angels to Moses. So they mediated 0:27:02.300 --> 0:27:06.140 the Old Covenant, and they continued to worship God day 0:27:06.140 --> 0:27:10.140 and night for eternity. According to revelation chapters four and five. 0:27:10.340 --> 0:27:15.140 So there are several purposes for angels. Uh, an additional 0:27:15.140 --> 0:27:18.740 one is to reveal God's will to particular individuals along 0:27:18.830 --> 0:27:22.270 the way. And so angels appeared to Abraham. They appeared 0:27:22.270 --> 0:27:26.430 to Jacob. They appeared to other Old Testament persons. And 0:27:26.430 --> 0:27:30.870 in the New Testament they appear to, uh, the apostles 0:27:30.869 --> 0:27:33.150 at different, on different occasions and so forth. 0:27:34.430 --> 0:27:37.830 So in the verse in Hebrews it talks about entertaining angels. 0:27:37.830 --> 0:27:40.790 There might be strangers, but they were unaware that they're angels. 0:27:41.030 --> 0:27:44.150 That seems to me to suggest that we could see angels. 0:27:44.150 --> 0:27:44.910 Is that right? 0:27:45.430 --> 0:27:48.830 Well, that's a verse from chapter 13 in, in at 0:27:48.830 --> 0:27:51.670 the end of the book of Hebrews. And it's a 0:27:52.109 --> 0:27:55.230 suggestion and a warning to us that we don't disparage 0:27:55.230 --> 0:27:59.070 the fact that angels may appear to us today on 0:27:59.070 --> 0:28:03.270 any particular occasion. Uh, just as they have in the past. 0:28:03.470 --> 0:28:06.830 And so we should be aware of that fact and 0:28:06.830 --> 0:28:12.110 not dismiss and think, uh, less of, uh, the possibility 0:28:12.109 --> 0:28:16.750 of angels appearing today whether, uh, in the personhood of 0:28:17.480 --> 0:28:21.680 what appears to us to be a real individuals or persons, 0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:24.120 as well as in dreams and perhaps visions. 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:25.480 Mhm. Mhm. 0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:27.880 Well, and if the Scripture tells us that he has 0:28:27.880 --> 0:28:32.119 set his angels to keep watch over us, obviously they're 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:35.920 still actively participating in God's good and perfect will. 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:40.440 Oh yes. And that's for believers. And another evil thing 0:28:40.440 --> 0:28:43.840 that angels are doing today, according to Daniel ten and 11, 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:48.800 is to lead nations astray, to deceive them, to corrupt them, uh, 0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:52.920 to put them in allegiance to Satan rather than to God. 0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:56.160 And so that means, as a practical application, uh, we 0:28:56.160 --> 0:28:59.240 can ask the question, what kind of angels are behind 0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:02.920 the scenes operating in Washington, DC? So there's a conflict 0:29:02.920 --> 0:29:06.200 going on all over the world, all the time, uh, 0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:11.280 to take nations and companies and individuals down the path 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:16.370 of evil and, and therefore corrupt them. And on the 0:29:16.370 --> 0:29:19.730 other hand, there's a conflict going on between them and 0:29:19.730 --> 0:29:22.530 good angels. And as you said, two are named in 0:29:22.530 --> 0:29:27.610 the Bible, uh, Michael and Gabriel. And they are put in, uh, 0:29:29.010 --> 0:29:31.410 in the effort on behalf of God to prevent evil 0:29:31.410 --> 0:29:33.690 from championing, from winning and so forth. 0:29:33.970 --> 0:29:34.490 Um. 0:29:34.850 --> 0:29:38.090 So when you said angels behind those nations that are 0:29:38.090 --> 0:29:41.650 being pulled astray, etc., you mean fallen angels, or in 0:29:41.650 --> 0:29:43.490 other word, for it would be demons, right? 0:29:43.930 --> 0:29:48.290 Yes. So they are an attempt of the evil forces, uh, 0:29:48.290 --> 0:29:50.450 to corrupt them and destroy them and to put them 0:29:50.450 --> 0:29:52.970 in allegiance to Satan rather than to doing God's will 0:29:52.970 --> 0:29:53.690 in the earth. 0:29:54.530 --> 0:29:58.010 So if Hebrews gives us the sense that we can 0:29:58.050 --> 0:30:01.650 see angels, therefore does it follow that we could also 0:30:01.650 --> 0:30:03.290 unaware be seeing a demon? 0:30:04.730 --> 0:30:08.730 Yes, I've read reports of people who can testify to 0:30:08.730 --> 0:30:11.490 that effect. I think Tracy says that in her testimony. 0:30:11.490 --> 0:30:15.180 I read somewhere else from two other, people who were 0:30:15.180 --> 0:30:17.740 formerly in the occult who've been delivered, and they attest 0:30:17.740 --> 0:30:18.740 to that very fact. 0:30:19.100 --> 0:30:19.980 Yeah. Yeah. 0:30:20.060 --> 0:30:22.020 It wouldn't surprise me at all by any stretch of 0:30:22.020 --> 0:30:25.620 the imagination. When you talked about Washington, DC. I smiled 0:30:25.620 --> 0:30:28.820 because there's so much there. But you're also suggesting and 0:30:28.860 --> 0:30:32.660 I'm I'm asking you as a professor of Scripture, if 0:30:32.660 --> 0:30:34.540 the Bible gives us a sense that there's a kind 0:30:34.540 --> 0:30:38.100 of territorialism, if you will, in the divine and in 0:30:38.100 --> 0:30:41.460 the supernatural. So you talked about leading cities astray. Do 0:30:41.460 --> 0:30:43.739 we think, do we know does the Bible give us 0:30:43.740 --> 0:30:47.500 any indication that there are supernatural forces that are assigned 0:30:47.500 --> 0:30:50.100 over certain parts of the globe, and where certain things 0:30:50.100 --> 0:30:52.979 are happening, we might we won't know definitively because we 0:30:52.980 --> 0:30:54.780 don't have those kinds of eyes. You know, man looks 0:30:54.780 --> 0:30:56.420 on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. We 0:30:56.420 --> 0:30:59.540 don't we can't see the supernatural. But is it is 0:30:59.540 --> 0:31:03.580 it safe to presume that possibly there are supernatural forces 0:31:03.580 --> 0:31:06.820 over territories on the globe where things are happening good 0:31:06.820 --> 0:31:07.340 and bad? 0:31:08.060 --> 0:31:11.060 Well, I think that's a possibility or a conclusion that 0:31:11.060 --> 0:31:15.150 would be validated. What I think biblically is particularly of 0:31:15.150 --> 0:31:18.870 Ephesians six, where Paul warns believers to stand fast with 0:31:18.870 --> 0:31:22.830 the armour of God because there are principalities, powers, world 0:31:22.830 --> 0:31:25.270 rulers of this darkness, and so forth. They list four 0:31:25.270 --> 0:31:31.950 different categories of fallen creatures demons or angels, and therefore, um, 0:31:32.470 --> 0:31:36.430 that that would signify some degree of authority or rank 0:31:36.470 --> 0:31:39.790 among the fallen angels. And I'm not just sure as 0:31:39.790 --> 0:31:43.150 to whether or not that can be territorialized, but certainly 0:31:43.630 --> 0:31:50.190 Israel would be, uh, a special hotbed for spiritual warfare. 0:31:50.590 --> 0:31:54.390 And clearly Daniel presents Michael as the protector of Israel 0:31:54.390 --> 0:31:56.590 in Daniel chapter 12, verse one. 0:31:56.950 --> 0:31:57.390 Mhm. 0:31:57.430 --> 0:32:00.310 Absolutely. I just it when you stop and think about 0:32:00.310 --> 0:32:02.070 that and you set your mind on things above and 0:32:02.070 --> 0:32:03.950 you read the headlines every day coming out of that 0:32:03.950 --> 0:32:06.070 part of the world, the headlines that will never make 0:32:06.070 --> 0:32:08.070 it on the alphabet soup network. So the headlines that 0:32:08.070 --> 0:32:10.350 are being made in heaven, the spiritual warfare that's going 0:32:10.350 --> 0:32:12.450 on over that part of the world, which is takes 0:32:12.450 --> 0:32:15.210 my breath away when you think about it. Again, we 0:32:15.290 --> 0:32:18.170 can't add to or take away from. But why do 0:32:18.170 --> 0:32:20.050 you think? Let me just ask you, as someone who 0:32:20.050 --> 0:32:22.610 loves the word, why only two angels named. 0:32:23.530 --> 0:32:24.170 Pardon me? 0:32:24.330 --> 0:32:26.210 Why only two angels named? 0:32:26.730 --> 0:32:28.610 Well, I don't know. I would. 0:32:28.610 --> 0:32:28.930 Plead. 0:32:28.930 --> 0:32:32.610 Deuteronomy 2929, which said, the secret things belong unto the 0:32:32.610 --> 0:32:33.610 Lord our God. 0:32:33.650 --> 0:32:34.490 Right now. 0:32:34.530 --> 0:32:38.490 Now there are there are apocryphal writings. One is the 0:32:38.530 --> 0:32:42.610 Book of Enoch, and there Enoch, uh, which is a 0:32:42.610 --> 0:32:46.690 false writing. Uh, nevertheless, uh, has some truth in it. 0:32:46.690 --> 0:32:48.610 But whether or not the truth that I'm about to 0:32:48.610 --> 0:32:51.530 say is true, I don't really know. I don't think so. 0:32:51.770 --> 0:32:54.690 But he identified the heads of all kinds of. He 0:32:54.690 --> 0:32:58.370 gave the proper names of all kinds of different angels. Uh, 0:32:58.530 --> 0:33:02.850 so in ancient times, people did delineate and describe angels 0:33:02.850 --> 0:33:06.050 by proper names. But biblically there are only two named. 0:33:06.490 --> 0:33:06.810 Yeah. 0:33:06.850 --> 0:33:10.260 Exactly. Right. So it does suggest a kind of hierarchy, 0:33:10.260 --> 0:33:12.380 does it not? Within the angelic world? 0:33:12.820 --> 0:33:15.700 Yes. And we must conclude that with Satan at the head. 0:33:16.180 --> 0:33:19.860 Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Amazing. All right. So going back to 0:33:19.900 --> 0:33:24.100 the richness of Scripture, angels appear throughout both the old 0:33:24.100 --> 0:33:27.380 and the New Testament. Sometimes they're giving a warning, sometimes 0:33:27.380 --> 0:33:29.620 they're declaring a message. I mean, you think of the 0:33:29.620 --> 0:33:31.860 angel that appears before Mary, the angel at the tomb. 0:33:31.900 --> 0:33:34.180 I mean, just just a few of them. Talk to 0:33:34.180 --> 0:33:38.060 me about when the Holy Spirit is manifest in the 0:33:38.060 --> 0:33:41.060 book of acts. Was there any thing that we can 0:33:41.060 --> 0:33:43.700 glean from Scripture that talks about? I mean, it was 0:33:43.820 --> 0:33:47.140 it's super. It's saturated in the supernatural. Were angels a 0:33:47.140 --> 0:33:48.060 part of any of that? 0:33:48.740 --> 0:33:53.380 Oh, yes. And, uh, may I refer to what I 0:33:53.380 --> 0:33:55.900 spent a couple chapters talking about? And that is what 0:33:55.900 --> 0:33:59.740 happened on the day of Pentecost. Uh, because for me, 0:33:59.980 --> 0:34:03.340 it gives a greater dimension and reality to the understanding 0:34:03.340 --> 0:34:06.420 of spiritual gifts. Uh, the coming of the Holy Spirit 0:34:06.460 --> 0:34:09.310 on the day of Pentecost in Acts two fulfilled Scripture, 0:34:09.310 --> 0:34:12.989 and Peter stands up and explains that and quotes from 0:34:12.989 --> 0:34:16.629 Joel chapter two. It's a powerful passage. It's the only 0:34:16.630 --> 0:34:19.950 place in the Old Testament where dreams, visions, and prophecies 0:34:19.950 --> 0:34:24.029 all three come together in one text. And it's meaningful therefore. 0:34:24.230 --> 0:34:27.910 And the spirit led Peter to quote that passage. But 0:34:27.910 --> 0:34:31.669 as a result, the Holy Spirit comes upon Christians in 0:34:31.670 --> 0:34:34.870 a powerful and new and permanent way that has never, 0:34:34.910 --> 0:34:38.989 ever been done in that way. And in that capacity before. 0:34:39.670 --> 0:34:43.950 And the Holy Spirit bestows on every believer at least one, 0:34:43.950 --> 0:34:47.390 if not many, spiritual gifts. And we fail to recognize 0:34:47.390 --> 0:34:50.670 that that's a divine empowerment on a parallel with God's 0:34:50.670 --> 0:34:54.110 empowerment in other ways in the Old Testament and so forth. 0:34:54.510 --> 0:34:56.390 In other words, I'm trying to put that on a 0:34:56.390 --> 0:35:02.870 level with other voices of God speaking with angelic visitors, 0:35:02.870 --> 0:35:05.270 appearing to people in the Old Testament and so forth. 0:35:05.469 --> 0:35:09.080 So believers are equipped with a divine enablement or power 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:11.919 that is not natural or from their own making, but 0:35:11.960 --> 0:35:16.120 is a divinely bequeathed or given gift to every single believer. 0:35:16.120 --> 0:35:19.919 And it's powerful. And it therefore is the power that 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:23.720 we have in our spiritual warfare against the enemy and 0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:27.440 the demonic forces around us. The Holy Spirit is there 0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:30.759 to equip us and to empower us for victory on 0:35:30.760 --> 0:35:31.760 every occasion. 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:32.520 Wow. 0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:36.240 So that power is the Holy Spirit available to every 0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:39.280 person upon confession of faith in Jesus Christ. I mean, 0:35:39.320 --> 0:35:42.040 you talk about supernatural and that if we were to 0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:45.359 ask the average believer to describe the Trinity, they'd have 0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:48.200 probably a pretty good working knowledge of Jesus. Second, they'd 0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:50.560 have a better they'd have a good knowledge of God. 0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:52.799 But there's so many questions about the power of the 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:54.480 Holy Spirit. Why do you think that is? 0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:57.120 Uh, I guess through neglect. 0:35:58.400 --> 0:35:58.720 Uh. 0:36:00.480 --> 0:36:04.600 Well, that's an interesting question. Uh, through neglect and failure 0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:07.609 to read scripture and failure. Failure. Oh, I think it 0:36:07.610 --> 0:36:10.650 goes back to a general understanding of worldview and the 0:36:10.650 --> 0:36:14.730 Christian worldview. In other words, here in contemporary America, we 0:36:14.770 --> 0:36:18.530 are given to scientism and intellectual thinking and so forth, 0:36:18.890 --> 0:36:21.930 and we give very little time to speaking, to thinking 0:36:21.930 --> 0:36:24.930 about the spiritual dynamics all around us, which is a 0:36:24.969 --> 0:36:28.970 greater reality, biblically speaking, than the physical realm around us. 0:36:29.370 --> 0:36:32.450 Excellent answer. And so very, very true. Doctor James DeYoung 0:36:32.489 --> 0:36:35.370 is with us. His brand new book is called Supernatural 0:36:35.370 --> 0:36:40.810 Encounters Divine and Demonic. We're all interested in this subject. Now, 0:36:40.810 --> 0:36:43.049 let's make sure that what we know is right in 0:36:43.050 --> 0:36:45.770 line with Scripture, and then get excited about the power 0:36:45.770 --> 0:36:58.730 of God in our lives back after this. Doctor James 0:36:58.730 --> 0:37:00.370 DeYoung is with us. He has a brand new book 0:37:00.570 --> 0:37:05.739 called Supernatural Encounters Divine and demonic. Doctor DeYoung, by the way, 0:37:05.739 --> 0:37:08.380 was a professor of New Testament at Western Seminary in Portland, 0:37:08.380 --> 0:37:10.980 Oregon for decades, and we're so glad that he's with us. 0:37:11.180 --> 0:37:14.020 Let me go to the New Testament and talk about 0:37:14.020 --> 0:37:16.620 two individuals that you write about that had a glimpse 0:37:16.620 --> 0:37:20.419 of heaven, Paul and John. And you start out in 0:37:20.420 --> 0:37:23.140 one of your chapters with a very interesting verse from 0:37:23.140 --> 0:37:25.060 Second Corinthians, if I can. James, let me read it 0:37:25.060 --> 0:37:26.900 and then ask you to break it down for us. 0:37:27.100 --> 0:37:29.140 I know a man in Christ who was caught up 0:37:29.140 --> 0:37:32.899 in Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is 0:37:32.900 --> 0:37:35.739 not permitted to speak. There was given to me a 0:37:35.739 --> 0:37:39.380 thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me. 0:37:39.380 --> 0:37:43.220 So in that same little passage, second Corinthians 12, verses two, 0:37:43.260 --> 0:37:46.020 four and seven, you hear the story of Paul, who 0:37:46.020 --> 0:37:49.100 has this view of heaven. He's given instructions. Don't tell 0:37:49.100 --> 0:37:51.259 anybody about it. And then he gets a thorn in 0:37:51.260 --> 0:37:54.020 the flesh. And that thorn is called a messenger of Satan. 0:37:54.020 --> 0:37:55.819 So he literally goes from heaven to hell in that 0:37:55.820 --> 0:37:57.540 short passage. Talk to me about this. 0:37:58.180 --> 0:38:01.620 Well. All right. Uh, this is one of the, if 0:38:01.620 --> 0:38:05.350 not the greatest encounter of a human being in the Bible, 0:38:05.790 --> 0:38:08.029 in the sense that he takes an otherworld journey to 0:38:08.070 --> 0:38:11.270 heaven itself. He himself has to admit he can't tell 0:38:11.310 --> 0:38:13.230 if he was in the body or out of the body. 0:38:13.670 --> 0:38:17.549 So in some form of a vision, he took this trip, probably. 0:38:17.550 --> 0:38:19.270 And it's similar to what John does in the book 0:38:19.270 --> 0:38:22.150 of revelation in chapter one, as he describes it in 0:38:22.150 --> 0:38:26.469 chapter four, verse one. But in any case, Paul had 0:38:26.750 --> 0:38:30.070 this amazing experience, and yet he was forbidden to tell 0:38:30.110 --> 0:38:33.950 of it in detail and to humble him. God gave 0:38:33.950 --> 0:38:38.430 him a thorn in the flesh, some kind of ailment, 0:38:38.870 --> 0:38:40.790 so that he suffered from this for the rest of 0:38:40.790 --> 0:38:44.110 his life. And it was, in a sense, a messenger 0:38:44.110 --> 0:38:47.910 from Satan to remind him that there's a spiritual warfare 0:38:47.950 --> 0:38:50.790 going on, and he is deeply involved in it for 0:38:50.790 --> 0:38:54.070 the rest of his life. It's meant to humble him 0:38:54.070 --> 0:38:56.950 so that he would not be proudful about the event 0:38:56.950 --> 0:39:00.350 that he experienced. And he says he cannot talk about 0:39:00.350 --> 0:39:03.920 him them. They're basically on expressable. And from that, I 0:39:03.960 --> 0:39:07.640 conclude that he saw things that really defy human language 0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:11.479 to articulate. And it's a far glimpse of what is 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:14.080 coming for every believer in Christ, in the new heavens 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:17.200 and new earth. So it's a powerful, powerful passage. 0:39:17.400 --> 0:39:17.600 Yeah. 0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:20.560 Exactly right. Okay. So I don't want to skip the 0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:24.080 other part. And that's John referenced again, his vision when 0:39:24.080 --> 0:39:26.040 he's on the island of Patmos gives us the Book 0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:29.600 of Revelation. Um, talk to me about that experience, because 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:32.319 the book of revelation for some is problematic in and 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:35.879 of itself. How John gets this vision is even more problematic. 0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:36.840 Walk me through that. 0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:40.600 Well, the book of Revelation comes from God the Father, 0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:44.160 through Jesus Christ, through angels to John, who is to 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:48.319 pass it on to God's servants, Christians. And so he 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:52.760 experiences something that is truly amazing. And, uh, most of it, 0:39:52.800 --> 0:39:55.880 I think, is understandable as visions that he had and 0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:59.650 he saw himself again, taken up in trips to heaven 0:39:59.650 --> 0:40:03.290 and seeing heavenly things. Uh, we can think of chapters 0:40:03.290 --> 0:40:05.210 four and five in particular, and then the rest of 0:40:05.210 --> 0:40:08.129 the book is the unfolding of the judgments that come 0:40:08.130 --> 0:40:10.810 during the Great Tribulation the seals, the trumpet and the 0:40:10.850 --> 0:40:14.529 bowl judgments. It's a marvelous depiction of things. And when 0:40:14.530 --> 0:40:17.090 people say, well, I can't understand the book of Revelation, 0:40:17.690 --> 0:40:19.730 they need to remember that the whole book of revelation 0:40:19.730 --> 0:40:22.850 was given so it could be understood. Chapter one, verses 0:40:22.850 --> 0:40:26.529 one through three say, blessed is he who reads this, 0:40:26.530 --> 0:40:29.250 and those who hear so that they might obey it. 0:40:29.410 --> 0:40:32.250 And if they confess that they can't understand it, then 0:40:32.250 --> 0:40:34.730 they can't obey it. So the opposite must be God's 0:40:34.730 --> 0:40:37.770 purpose for giving us the book. It tells us something 0:40:37.810 --> 0:40:40.330 of future events, and we're. And they are written in 0:40:40.330 --> 0:40:42.610 such a way that we should understand them. 0:40:42.969 --> 0:40:43.330 Hmm. 0:40:45.050 --> 0:40:46.690 I love what you just said, and there are some 0:40:46.690 --> 0:40:48.850 people who are going, well, I'm totally confused. I mean, 0:40:48.890 --> 0:40:51.490 beasts and bulls. I don't get any of that. And 0:40:51.530 --> 0:40:54.570 it's confusing to me. And yet, when you look at revelation, 0:40:54.570 --> 0:40:56.330 it seems to me. And tell me if I'm wrong 0:40:56.330 --> 0:40:59.230 because you're the professor. But if there's 66 books, it 0:40:59.230 --> 0:41:02.910 is the book of revelation that is perhaps most deeply 0:41:03.390 --> 0:41:08.509 containing supernatural encounters. Is that right? And why would God just. 0:41:08.550 --> 0:41:11.310 And so why does God? You just said it's written 0:41:11.310 --> 0:41:13.549 and you went to the first three verses of revelation one, 0:41:13.550 --> 0:41:15.830 which is important for us to remember that we're supposed 0:41:15.830 --> 0:41:17.790 to read this, we're supposed to understand it. So God 0:41:17.790 --> 0:41:20.270 doesn't want to say, this is so spooky. I don't 0:41:20.270 --> 0:41:21.670 want you to have anything to do with it. He 0:41:21.670 --> 0:41:26.390 only gave us 66 books, every one of them inerrant, inspired, transcendent, immutable, 0:41:26.590 --> 0:41:29.910 all God breathed God authored. So I don't take the 0:41:29.910 --> 0:41:32.430 Book of revelation lightly, but it really is different from 0:41:32.430 --> 0:41:35.190 any of the other books because one of your passions, 0:41:35.510 --> 0:41:38.109 you one of your passions right now is eschatology. What 0:41:38.110 --> 0:41:39.989 are some of the takeaways you think God wants us 0:41:39.989 --> 0:41:41.710 to take from the Book of Revelation? 0:41:42.150 --> 0:41:44.910 Well, we need to remember that according to, again, the 0:41:44.910 --> 0:41:46.990 first few verses of the book, it said that God 0:41:47.030 --> 0:41:50.950 signed it to his servant John. The verb is camino, 0:41:50.989 --> 0:41:55.750 which means that he communicated great truth to come using symbols. 0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:59.800 and these symbols stand for true realities behind them. But 0:41:59.800 --> 0:42:04.200 the symbols themselves are often mysterious and difficult, but with 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:08.719 adequate preparation and understanding and research and study. Those all 0:42:08.760 --> 0:42:12.200 those visions are understandable to a significant degree. Not every 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:16.319 detail necessarily. Uh, and and so it's a wonderful and 0:42:16.320 --> 0:42:17.400 rewarding book. 0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:18.640 Yeah. 0:42:19.000 --> 0:42:21.799 So because this is your passion and because I think 0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:24.360 there are people who are curious but afraid to step 0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:26.760 into it. How does one start with the book of Revelation? 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:28.520 What's the best way to read that book? 0:42:29.120 --> 0:42:31.279 Well, to read it from cover to cover for one thing, 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:35.080 to begin that way, and then remember that every other 0:42:35.080 --> 0:42:37.960 verse in the book of Revelation, on average, is a 0:42:37.960 --> 0:42:41.040 reference to Old Testament truth, an Old Testament person or 0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:44.200 event or symbol or something. So the key to the 0:42:44.200 --> 0:42:47.560 Book of Revelation is to know the Old Testament. It's 0:42:47.560 --> 0:42:50.520 a prolific book that is deeply, deeply dependent upon the 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:54.970 Old Testament, but never quotes it explicitly. It's an amazing 0:42:55.010 --> 0:42:56.410 phenomenon in itself. 0:42:56.450 --> 0:42:56.810 Yeah. 0:42:56.850 --> 0:43:00.009 Exactly right. And you cannot look at revelation without looking 0:43:00.010 --> 0:43:03.969 at Ezekiel and Daniel. The intersection here is just unbelievably profound. 0:43:04.170 --> 0:43:05.330 So when. 0:43:05.930 --> 0:43:07.930 Well, you know. Well, let me just conclude here by 0:43:07.930 --> 0:43:10.250 saying something else about the book of revelation, because it 0:43:10.250 --> 0:43:14.489 ties into supernatural encounters very graphically and fully. And at 0:43:14.489 --> 0:43:17.450 the end of the book, we're told that all of 0:43:17.450 --> 0:43:20.049 this was written so that we could be ready for 0:43:20.050 --> 0:43:23.090 the Lord's return. And so I cover the rapture there 0:43:23.090 --> 0:43:28.009 because of its, uh, the invitation for Jesus to come quickly. 0:43:28.010 --> 0:43:30.690 And it's tied. Then to first Thessalonians four and first 0:43:30.690 --> 0:43:33.810 Corinthians 15. And I want to say to each of 0:43:33.810 --> 0:43:37.250 your listeners that all the patterns I deal with in 0:43:37.250 --> 0:43:42.489 the book, there's over 240, uh, different supernatural encounters. But 0:43:42.489 --> 0:43:45.690 I ask three simple questions. What happened? What did it 0:43:45.690 --> 0:43:47.530 mean then? And what does it mean now? 0:43:49.130 --> 0:43:51.170 And what a great way to end our conversation, James, 0:43:51.170 --> 0:43:53.980 with questions that will make us go deeper, think better, 0:43:53.980 --> 0:43:56.380 and get really into the Word of God. Let me 0:43:56.380 --> 0:43:58.180 just tell our friends again the name of your new book. 0:43:58.180 --> 0:44:02.819 It's called Supernatural Encounters Divine and Demonic, written by a 0:44:02.820 --> 0:44:05.819 man who has taught the scriptures for decades and who 0:44:05.820 --> 0:44:07.739 loves the Word of God. So if this is an 0:44:07.739 --> 0:44:09.419 interest to you, and I don't know how, it can't 0:44:09.420 --> 0:44:11.500 be an interest to every single one of us. It's 0:44:11.540 --> 0:44:14.580 what we know a little bit of what we can't 0:44:14.580 --> 0:44:18.500 see and yet is 1,000% reality. Now let that sink 0:44:18.540 --> 0:44:21.700 in for a little bit. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? Again, 0:44:22.100 --> 0:44:24.020 we just don't have those kinds of eyes. But boy, 0:44:24.020 --> 0:44:27.300 the reality of the supernatural is all around us. Great 0:44:27.300 --> 0:44:29.259 comfort in that. Greater is he that is in us 0:44:29.260 --> 0:44:30.939 than he that is in the world. So this isn't 0:44:30.940 --> 0:44:33.980 about being afraid. This is about understanding who's the victor, 0:44:33.980 --> 0:44:36.580 who's the conqueror, and who is the one that sets 0:44:36.580 --> 0:44:39.060 the captive free. James. Thank you. It is an absolutely 0:44:39.060 --> 0:44:41.100 fascinating book. Again, I've got it on my website. If 0:44:41.100 --> 0:44:44.819 you're interested in the market with Janet Parshall. Click on 0:44:44.820 --> 0:44:46.700 the red box. It will take you to the information 0:44:46.700 --> 0:44:48.660 page and you can learn how to get your own copy. 0:44:48.820 --> 0:44:51.020 Doctor DeYoung, thank you for a great conversation. We'll see 0:44:51.020 --> 0:44:52.020 you next time, friends.