WEBVTT - Be a Great Leader by Friday | Kevin Leman 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.080 To get behind that person's eyes and to make sure 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.880 that person is not only on the right bus, but 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.399 the right seat of the bus. You really have to 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:12.719 take the time to know and learn and understand how 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.880 that person sees life. So this isn't rocket science. There 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:19.320 is a method to the madness, so to speak, here. 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.800 Welcome to Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.680 the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today, 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:36.320 internationally known psychologist, radio and TV personality, educator and author 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.080 Doctor Kevin Leman joins us. If you are in any 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.040 kind of leadership position and you want to improve your skills, 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:43.560 today's program is for you. 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:46.400 Doctor Leman has written more than 70 books that have 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:48.920 helped people of all ages. You may know him from 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.879 his work on birth order. His latest is Be a 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.560 Great Leader by Friday. Five Winning plays to spark your 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:01.010 world changing potential. It's our featured resource at Building Relationships relationships.us. 0:01:01.410 --> 0:01:04.050 And Gary, you have known a lot of leaders through 0:01:04.050 --> 0:01:07.250 the years. Some good, some maybe not so good. What 0:01:07.250 --> 0:01:09.729 do you see as one of the top characteristics of 0:01:09.730 --> 0:01:10.569 a good leader? 0:01:11.130 --> 0:01:15.250 You know, Chris, I think I would say be authentic. 0:01:16.330 --> 0:01:19.770 Tell the truth. Don't tell one person one thing and 0:01:19.770 --> 0:01:24.170 another person another thing. And I would also say, not 0:01:24.170 --> 0:01:28.209 only that, but be open to input from the people 0:01:28.209 --> 0:01:32.370 on your team, whatever your leadership role. Don't be limited 0:01:32.370 --> 0:01:36.450 to your own wisdom. Ask for ideas on how we 0:01:36.450 --> 0:01:39.850 can make things better and be open to considering those ideas. 0:01:40.330 --> 0:01:42.130 Those are a couple of thoughts that come to my mind, 0:01:42.130 --> 0:01:44.930 but I am really excited about our program today because 0:01:45.010 --> 0:01:47.410 Doctor Kevin Lehman, I've known him for a long, long time. 0:01:48.010 --> 0:01:49.530 And I think this is going to help a lot 0:01:49.530 --> 0:01:52.730 of folks. And listen, everybody's a leader in some area. Okay. 0:01:52.770 --> 0:01:53.930 Exactly. Yes. 0:01:54.050 --> 0:01:57.250 If you're only leading your dog, you're still a leader. Okay. 0:01:58.850 --> 0:02:01.860 So I hope our listeners will stay tuned to us 0:02:01.860 --> 0:02:03.620 and we're going to learn some good things. 0:02:04.020 --> 0:02:06.420 Well, Doctor Kevin Leman is The New York Times best 0:02:06.420 --> 0:02:09.380 selling author of more than 70 books, including the birth 0:02:09.380 --> 0:02:13.139 order book Have a New Kid by Friday. Making Children Mind, 0:02:13.139 --> 0:02:17.020 Without Losing Yours, and many others. He's made thousands of 0:02:17.020 --> 0:02:20.940 house calls through radio and TV programs. A practicing psychologist 0:02:20.940 --> 0:02:24.980 for 40 plus years, Doctor Lim has helped millions understand 0:02:24.980 --> 0:02:28.380 the dynamics of healthy relationships. He and his wife, Sandi, 0:02:28.380 --> 0:02:31.940 live in Arizona. They have five children and four grandchildren. 0:02:32.020 --> 0:02:34.579 His book, Be a Great Leader by Friday is our 0:02:34.580 --> 0:02:38.220 featured resource. Just go to Building Relationships us. 0:02:38.980 --> 0:02:41.500 Well, Doctor Leman, welcome to Building Relationships. 0:02:42.460 --> 0:02:45.300 Well, you know what? We go back a long time. 0:02:45.300 --> 0:02:48.340 I was just thinking. I think your son was 14 0:02:48.340 --> 0:02:52.900 years old when I had dinner in your home years ago. 0:02:53.020 --> 0:02:55.660 So just how many years ago was that? 0:02:55.860 --> 0:02:57.780 Well, he's 50. He's 54 now. 0:02:59.710 --> 0:03:05.190 40 years do go way back. But you know, I'm 0:03:05.190 --> 0:03:08.030 so glad when they when they asked you about, you know, 0:03:08.070 --> 0:03:12.669 marks of a leader, you started with authenticity and maybe I'll, 0:03:12.669 --> 0:03:15.669 I'll tag along on that because leave it to a 0:03:15.669 --> 0:03:21.030 bunch of experimental psychologists. Check this one out. They found 0:03:21.030 --> 0:03:25.270 a shepherd with a large flock of sheep, and they 0:03:25.350 --> 0:03:29.870 thought they would try an experiment. They took the shepherd 0:03:29.990 --> 0:03:35.150 out of the flock. They found someone of his approximate stature. 0:03:36.070 --> 0:03:42.390 The imposter actually wore the same clothing that the shepherd 0:03:42.750 --> 0:03:47.950 had on. They digitized his call. And today, with electronics, 0:03:47.950 --> 0:03:52.950 you can nail a sound perfectly. And they bellowed it 0:03:52.950 --> 0:03:58.320 across the meadow. And all the sheep did something interesting. 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:04.320 They turned around and they looked, but they didn't follow 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:10.400 the imposter shepherd. Isn't that interesting? We think that sheep 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.480 are stupid. I'm here to tell you. I think sheep 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.480 are pretty smart. But if you're going to be a leader. 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:17.560 And by the way, if you have to tell people 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:22.320 that you're a leader, you're not. The point is that 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.560 for a leader to be effective, there has to be 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.120 that authenticity. And without that, you're going to fail. So 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.159 this book that I've done, uh, be a great leader 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.440 by Friday, and I admit, I got hung up on 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:41.479 Friday on several of my books, but it's really it's 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.919 really the sequel to The Way of the Shepherd, which 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.719 has been a mega bestseller. It's still in hardback for 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.480 20 years. Anybody who knows the book industry knows that 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.520 after one year in hardback, it gets dropped into paper. 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:58.849 So the way the shepherd is sort of the big 0:04:58.850 --> 0:05:02.730 picture of leadership, this is sort of for the person 0:05:02.730 --> 0:05:07.490 who is struggling from the wannabe a leader to the 0:05:07.490 --> 0:05:12.130 CEO to the CFO. It could probably be titled How 0:05:12.130 --> 0:05:15.170 to Succeed in Life, because I think the basic truths 0:05:15.490 --> 0:05:18.490 that are in this leadership book help you in every 0:05:18.490 --> 0:05:21.970 aspect of your life, whether it's your marriage or your parenthood, 0:05:21.970 --> 0:05:25.210 or in your work as a as a manager or 0:05:25.210 --> 0:05:26.290 a business person. 0:05:26.850 --> 0:05:30.010 Yeah. Well, yeah, you've written a lot. Of course. Birth order, 0:05:30.010 --> 0:05:34.450 all of us are familiar with that. And but also relationships, marriage, parenting, 0:05:34.450 --> 0:05:37.130 all those things. But I don't I don't know that 0:05:37.130 --> 0:05:39.650 you've written a book on leadership before. So what what 0:05:39.650 --> 0:05:42.010 motivated you to write a book on leadership? 0:05:42.650 --> 0:05:45.490 Well, Gary, it was a God thing. As you as 0:05:45.490 --> 0:05:50.049 you recall, we used to have these big Christian booksellers conventions, 0:05:50.810 --> 0:05:54.170 and I had met a pastor friend and we were 0:05:54.170 --> 0:05:57.700 just sort of talking. He wanted to to do a 0:05:57.700 --> 0:06:02.460 book someday, and we just started talking about what kind 0:06:02.460 --> 0:06:04.620 of a book it would be. He was a business 0:06:04.660 --> 0:06:09.100 guy himself, and, and we sort of brainstormed and we 0:06:09.140 --> 0:06:12.580 came this up with this idea of a leadership book 0:06:12.580 --> 0:06:15.700 called The Way the Shepherd. And we did it together. And, 0:06:15.700 --> 0:06:17.700 you know, when you do a book with two people, 0:06:17.700 --> 0:06:21.460 it's not always easy to synchronize. But we pulled it off. 0:06:22.300 --> 0:06:24.220 And to date, I just looked at the book. I 0:06:24.220 --> 0:06:27.820 just got a royalty statement last week from the publisher, 0:06:29.020 --> 0:06:33.940 and I believe this figure is accurate. It's at 237,000 0:06:33.940 --> 0:06:37.779 copies sold in hardback. And as you know, in hardback, 0:06:37.820 --> 0:06:42.820 that's you've sold millions, as have I, in some books. Uh, 0:06:42.820 --> 0:06:46.500 but you just you just don't get those kind of 0:06:46.500 --> 0:06:51.219 numbers without it scratching where, where people itch. Yeah. In fact, 0:06:51.220 --> 0:06:53.099 I just got a call from a big church in 0:06:53.100 --> 0:06:57.510 California where they just ordered 4000 copies of that way. 0:06:57.510 --> 0:07:02.110 The Shepherd book, so for their congregation is a gift, uh, 0:07:02.110 --> 0:07:05.870 to their members. But, um, I I'm getting away from 0:07:05.870 --> 0:07:10.110 my point. So, yeah, that's the big picture book. And, uh, 0:07:10.110 --> 0:07:12.110 it was a God thing, I say, because we went 0:07:12.110 --> 0:07:16.230 to the convention and you and I know a lot 0:07:16.230 --> 0:07:19.630 of different publishers, and I ran into a guy over 0:07:19.670 --> 0:07:25.550 at Zondervan in the backdrop. Was that his family? Guess what? 0:07:25.830 --> 0:07:30.230 They raised sheep. So I was just sort of shopping 0:07:30.230 --> 0:07:35.230 this idea around to publishers. But on first strike, when 0:07:35.230 --> 0:07:39.790 I met this gentleman from Zondervan Publishers, he fell in 0:07:39.790 --> 0:07:43.590 love with the idea. We rolled with it about nine 0:07:43.590 --> 0:07:46.030 months later. We had a book in hand and and 0:07:46.030 --> 0:07:50.470 it became an immediately a bestseller. The the irony is, 0:07:50.510 --> 0:07:52.550 and this is just for you, Gary, not so much 0:07:52.550 --> 0:07:55.760 for our listeners, but in fact, I wrote a note 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:57.880 to Zondervan once that said, you know, I think it'd 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.440 be a really good idea to maybe tell people that 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:07.320 this book is out there. So if it sounds like 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.920 I'm flaunting them publicly, I don't mean to, but, you know, 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.160 I've seen it all in the publishing world. I mean, 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:14.760 I wrote a book once that I thought would be 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.120 a mega bestseller. It was the worst one I ever, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.480 I ever released, so who knows? But this is a 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.480 book that really for that person, how do I become 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.600 a leader? This is sort of a step by step, 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:31.080 loaded with tips and stories from other leaders, uh, as well, 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.280 about how do I get from A to B? 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.440 Yeah, yeah. Well, Kevin, we're talking about leadership in your book. 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.559 Be a Great Leader by Friday. You know, uh, what 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.000 would you say is the most important thing a leader 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:43.920 needs to know? 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.679 Well, I think they have to know that it's, uh. 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:52.559 It's all about being personal. Leadership is personal. It's not something. 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.610 It's arm's length. In fact, I was talking to a 0:08:55.610 --> 0:08:59.290 young CEO the other day, a woman, and I asked her. 0:08:59.290 --> 0:09:01.690 I said, hey, tell me, what do you do when 0:09:01.690 --> 0:09:07.329 somebody in your group does something outstandingly well? Good. She said, well, 0:09:07.330 --> 0:09:11.210 I send them an email. I said, that is a second, 0:09:11.210 --> 0:09:15.770 second dumbest thing one could do. The dumbest thing you 0:09:15.770 --> 0:09:18.890 could do is just ignore it. But who wants another email? 0:09:19.970 --> 0:09:22.690 And so I talk in in be a Great Leader 0:09:22.690 --> 0:09:27.650 by Friday about the power of a personal note. I 0:09:27.650 --> 0:09:31.570 have personal notes from people who I love and respect. 0:09:32.010 --> 0:09:34.250 I have to tell you, Gary, I haven't thrown any 0:09:34.250 --> 0:09:36.610 of those out. I got to know Herb Kelleher. In fact, 0:09:36.610 --> 0:09:39.490 I interviewed him and got to know him fairly well, 0:09:39.490 --> 0:09:42.370 and he was the chairman of the board of Southwest Airlines. 0:09:42.929 --> 0:09:45.610 He was the youngest child in his family, by the way, 0:09:45.610 --> 0:09:48.890 which proves that great leaders can even come from the 0:09:48.890 --> 0:09:53.219 baby position of the family. If you've ever flown on southwest. 0:09:53.700 --> 0:09:57.940 You probably had more fun. On southwest than any other 0:09:57.940 --> 0:10:01.860 airline you've ever flown. They give their flight attendants great 0:10:01.900 --> 0:10:06.020 leeway and entertaining people as they give those announcements. It's 0:10:06.020 --> 0:10:09.780 just a fun airline. But three years after I had 0:10:09.780 --> 0:10:14.340 visited with him extensively, I ran into him by accident 0:10:14.340 --> 0:10:17.980 at the Dallas Fort Worth airport. He, without blinking an eye, 0:10:17.980 --> 0:10:20.900 he looked at me and said, Kevin, how are you? 0:10:21.100 --> 0:10:24.860 He had a he was a great leader. But he 0:10:24.860 --> 0:10:30.380 said something that's really interesting. He said, you know, at southwest, 0:10:31.540 --> 0:10:35.380 we're in the service business. And it's incidental that we 0:10:35.380 --> 0:10:36.980 also fly airplanes. 0:10:37.780 --> 0:10:38.660 Hmm. 0:10:38.940 --> 0:10:40.940 I never forgot that. I thought, yeah, we are in 0:10:40.940 --> 0:10:44.339 the service. I mean, we're servants as Christians were to 0:10:44.340 --> 0:10:49.140 be servants. So this is a book about servant leadership. 0:10:49.700 --> 0:10:53.230 And one of the kickers is this that I don't 0:10:53.230 --> 0:10:55.110 care where you are in life, how smart you are, 0:10:55.110 --> 0:10:57.990 or how many degrees you have, what accolades people have 0:10:58.030 --> 0:11:02.310 given you. People don't care what you have to say 0:11:03.030 --> 0:11:07.310 until they know you care. Yeah, that's just premise number one. 0:11:07.390 --> 0:11:13.430 So this book is all about living the Christian life. 0:11:14.350 --> 0:11:17.430 It's treating people the way you should treat people. But 0:11:17.429 --> 0:11:20.350 it is a guide to success for those who are 0:11:20.350 --> 0:11:23.710 wavering and not sure how to proceed. 0:11:24.230 --> 0:11:27.230 Yeah, yeah. You know, I hear a lot of people 0:11:27.230 --> 0:11:31.990 use the term born leaders. He's a born leader. Is 0:11:31.990 --> 0:11:36.350 there truth in that, or what would you say to that? 0:11:36.790 --> 0:11:40.190 Well, you know, I think there's some truth in it. 0:11:40.630 --> 0:11:43.390 You know, some of my background. I don't mean to 0:11:43.390 --> 0:11:46.070 be repetitive to people that some people have heard this 0:11:46.070 --> 0:11:49.710 too many times, but I was the youngest child in 0:11:49.710 --> 0:11:52.679 the family. I I graduated fourth of my class in 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.480 high school. Unfortunately, I was fourth in the bottom and 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.120 not fourth in the top. That was problem number one. 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.960 My high school counselor and this is a quote. In fact, 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.920 I dedicated my very first book to him. He said, Lehman, 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.719 with your grades and your record, I couldn't get you 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:15.400 into reform school. But looking back, looking back, I had 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.120 a sister who was perfect, an older sister who ended 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.280 up being a children's pastor. Okay, how do you beat 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.760 that one? And then I had a brother who was 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:30.680 a straight-A student as well. And I've psyched myself out. 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.560 Shrunk myself. Years ago, I was the baby of three. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.319 I had two little bluebirds above me who did everything right. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.280 And looking back, I think I made a conscious effort 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.240 to be the best at being the worst, because that's 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.079 how I got attention. And so when I do TV 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:51.890 shows in New York on those morning shows. My litmus 0:12:51.890 --> 0:12:54.689 test is do I get the audio guy and the 0:12:54.690 --> 0:12:58.450 the lighting guy to laugh? Well, I've had some long 0:12:58.490 --> 0:13:03.450 talks with God about that because drawing attention to you 0:13:03.450 --> 0:13:06.329 self is not a good idea. I mean, God hates 0:13:07.050 --> 0:13:10.810 pride and I've I've talked my way around that one. 0:13:10.809 --> 0:13:16.370 I've learned to be joyful for other people's success. Uh, 0:13:16.370 --> 0:13:18.890 and I think that's really a gift that God gives 0:13:18.890 --> 0:13:21.570 you over a period of time. But no, I think 0:13:21.570 --> 0:13:27.410 looking back, I, I was sort of a born salesman 0:13:27.530 --> 0:13:31.130 because I that's how I got around things. People ask 0:13:31.130 --> 0:13:33.490 me about all the things you've done in life I've gotten, 0:13:33.530 --> 0:13:37.450 you know, you get honorary doctorate degrees and accolades from 0:13:37.450 --> 0:13:40.490 different groups and stuff. And I say, well, when I 0:13:40.490 --> 0:13:43.090 think about what I've done, what really makes me laugh 0:13:43.090 --> 0:13:47.050 is I talked my way into Disney World for nine 0:13:47.050 --> 0:13:52.180 free tickets. It took me 20 minutes. I planned on ten, 0:13:52.179 --> 0:13:57.059 but I did that, you know. Your wife Caroline. Your wife, 0:13:57.059 --> 0:14:00.260 Caroline has a similar personality to me. I hope you 0:14:00.260 --> 0:14:02.260 don't regret me saying that. 0:14:02.580 --> 0:14:03.060 But. 0:14:03.740 --> 0:14:06.820 But she is so much fun. In fact, you might 0:14:06.820 --> 0:14:09.420 remember this. I told your wife once. I said, Caroline, 0:14:09.620 --> 0:14:12.380 if you and I were married, we would have the 0:14:12.540 --> 0:14:20.060 best marriage for a full seven days. One week. Because 0:14:20.060 --> 0:14:24.500 we're too much alike, you know. But but I, I, 0:14:24.500 --> 0:14:27.140 I talked my way. I still laugh to this day 0:14:27.180 --> 0:14:30.380 thinking about how did I do that? And I did 0:14:30.380 --> 0:14:35.380 that using some, I think, natural born skills that God 0:14:35.380 --> 0:14:39.140 gave me. I used to apologize for using humor at seminars. 0:14:39.140 --> 0:14:41.820 And now I tell people, you know, when God gives 0:14:41.820 --> 0:14:45.380 you the gift of humor, use humor, but do it 0:14:45.380 --> 0:14:47.220 for the right way. I mean, how do you survive 0:14:47.260 --> 0:14:50.390 doing the view on ABC as I've done a couple 0:14:50.390 --> 0:14:54.590 times without using humor. Those women could care less about me, 0:14:54.590 --> 0:14:56.870 but I use humor to keep them at bay. 0:14:57.790 --> 0:15:02.430 Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I think this. Yeah. Well, 0:15:02.430 --> 0:15:05.110 in the book you talk about, uh, you know, in 0:15:05.110 --> 0:15:08.830 order to motivate people, uh, you have to employ the 0:15:08.830 --> 0:15:12.310 three R's. What are the three R's? 0:15:12.950 --> 0:15:16.030 And you'll love this one, Gary, because the name of 0:15:16.030 --> 0:15:24.229 your program. Relationships. Relationships. Relationships. So if you're interested in 0:15:24.230 --> 0:15:29.390 changing behavior of those that are on your staff, the 0:15:29.430 --> 0:15:32.350 first thing you have to do is get behind their 0:15:32.430 --> 0:15:37.230 eyes and see how they see life. And I point 0:15:37.230 --> 0:15:41.070 out firstborn children, for example. Well, here, I'll put it 0:15:41.070 --> 0:15:45.710 in a question form. Do firstborn children buy a brand 0:15:45.710 --> 0:15:50.080 new automobile like us? babies of the family. That's the question. 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.200 And the answer is no, they don't, because the firstborn 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.520 is going to read Car and Driver magazine. The firstborn 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:01.680 is going to look at the specification page. Us babies 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.920 of the family. We could care less about the specification page. 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:10.080 We say such profound things on the car lot is Shazam. 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.680 Do you have one with gold trim? I'll take it. 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.600 So to to get behind that person's eyes and to 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.920 make sure that person is not only on the right bus, Gary, 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.520 but the right seat of the bus, you really have 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.400 to have to take the time to know and learn 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.840 and understand how that person sees life. So this isn't 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.200 rocket science. There is a method to the madness, so 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:38.040 to speak, here. 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.240 Yeah. I want to go back to your personal life again. 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.720 I remember there was a time in which you sold 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:48.330 magazines door to door. Uh, what did you learn from 0:16:48.490 --> 0:16:50.650 that job? Well. 0:16:51.090 --> 0:16:54.450 They dumped you off in the summertime. Thanks for asking 0:16:54.450 --> 0:16:57.210 that question. I was just thrown out of college. I 0:16:57.210 --> 0:17:01.170 was 19 years old, I was smoking. Uh, let's see, 0:17:01.170 --> 0:17:05.530 what were those called? Uh, Newport cigarettes. Uh, I had 0:17:05.530 --> 0:17:09.890 greasy hair. I had my belt on the side, so 0:17:09.890 --> 0:17:12.969 to speak. I was a little greaseball. I mean, I 0:17:12.970 --> 0:17:15.490 was going nowhere, and this was before I knew Christ 0:17:15.490 --> 0:17:18.610 as my Savior and Lord. And they dropped us off 0:17:18.609 --> 0:17:22.130 in 105 degree weather and said, meet back on this 0:17:22.130 --> 0:17:25.650 corner in five hours. And you you pounded on doors 0:17:25.650 --> 0:17:30.290 and you sold magazines. Well, I came back, I had 0:17:30.290 --> 0:17:33.410 my orders with me. And back in those days, a 0:17:33.410 --> 0:17:39.370 full magazine subscription. This was 1962, I believe. A magazine 0:17:39.369 --> 0:17:45.210 subscription was $87.50. And the kicker was to always get 0:17:45.210 --> 0:17:49.100 the up front money, which was $2.50 with the order. 0:17:50.100 --> 0:17:52.100 So you'd knock on the door and say, I'm doing 0:17:52.100 --> 0:17:55.620 market research in your area, and you hand them a card, say, 0:17:55.619 --> 0:17:59.340 just pick any seven magazines you want, absolutely free. That 0:17:59.340 --> 0:18:02.419 was the pitch. Mm. I take the orders back. I 0:18:02.460 --> 0:18:05.020 still remember the woman's name. Her name was Joyce Berman. 0:18:05.020 --> 0:18:07.500 She was the. And she looked at me and she 0:18:07.500 --> 0:18:10.340 looked at my order. She said, what is that? I said, 0:18:10.340 --> 0:18:12.580 those are my orders. And I thought, oh, I'm in trouble. 0:18:12.580 --> 0:18:17.419 I didn't sell enough magazines. She said, those are your orders. 0:18:18.020 --> 0:18:20.899 And I said, yes. She said, come with me, Calvin. 0:18:20.900 --> 0:18:23.899 She called me Calvin and she and she took me 0:18:23.900 --> 0:18:27.020 into the boss's office and she said, look what Calvin did. 0:18:27.619 --> 0:18:32.060 I had 27 orders, which I later found out was 0:18:32.060 --> 0:18:35.780 a record for a morning walk in a neighborhood for 0:18:35.780 --> 0:18:40.420 this company. And I think it was then that I 0:18:40.460 --> 0:18:43.980 figured out, you know, I could sell things. But what 0:18:44.020 --> 0:18:47.070 really bothered me, And this is again before I became 0:18:47.070 --> 0:18:51.670 a Christian, is I didn't like the way the pitch was. 0:18:51.750 --> 0:18:56.109 I felt like we were pulling the eyes, the wool 0:18:56.109 --> 0:18:58.950 over the eyes of people, so to speak. Yeah. And 0:18:58.950 --> 0:19:01.710 so even though I was successful at that job, I 0:19:01.710 --> 0:19:04.550 moved along. But to show you that God still has 0:19:04.550 --> 0:19:08.310 a plan for your life, I moved from selling magazines 0:19:08.310 --> 0:19:10.910 door to door to getting a job as a janitor, 0:19:11.750 --> 0:19:16.109 making $195 a month full time. But I've got to 0:19:16.150 --> 0:19:19.110 hurry because I know we're short on time. My life 0:19:19.109 --> 0:19:21.590 changed one day when this five foot, nine inch beauty 0:19:21.630 --> 0:19:23.990 walked down the hallway while I was holding a mop. 0:19:25.030 --> 0:19:27.869 And that same day, I met her in the men's restroom. 0:19:27.869 --> 0:19:29.990 Believe it or not, she was helping some little guy 0:19:29.990 --> 0:19:33.430 go potty. But she was the one that Jesus used, 0:19:33.430 --> 0:19:36.389 that God used in my life to turn my entire 0:19:36.390 --> 0:19:40.830 life around. Because she popped the question three months into dating. 0:19:41.190 --> 0:19:42.990 And she said, would you like to go to church 0:19:42.990 --> 0:19:48.119 with me? And my real honest thoughts were, oh no, 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.600 she's one of them. If there's one thing I didn't 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:53.440 want to be was a Christian. And then she asked 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.960 me to go back at night. Why would you go 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.119 back at night? I already went in the morning. Didn't 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:02.520 I do it right? But that night, I'll tell you. 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:04.920 I remember the beads of sweat on my forehead. Gary. 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.720 I walked out that church, a new man. I accepted Christ. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.160 I didn't know who Jesus was, quite frankly, at that point. 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:13.919 I didn't know where he was going to take me. 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:16.119 But I said, okay, I'm going to trust you. He 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.200 gave me instant motivation, went back to school full time, 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.960 got on the Dean's list my first semester and never 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:24.600 looked back. 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:30.240 Wow. Wow. Well, it's powerful. You know, it's amazing how 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:34.720 God knows how to get to us. So in the book, 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.440 you have what you call Lehman isms. Let me quote 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:43.320 one of them. Know yourself first before you stick your 0:20:43.450 --> 0:20:47.850 nose in other's business. That sounds like you, Kevin. Yeah. 0:20:47.890 --> 0:20:48.450 It does. 0:20:49.609 --> 0:20:51.649 Why do you need to start? Why do you need 0:20:51.650 --> 0:20:53.530 to start with self knowledge? 0:20:54.330 --> 0:20:56.570 Well, because I think most of us are too interested 0:20:56.570 --> 0:21:00.010 in self. And you have to look in that mirror 0:21:00.050 --> 0:21:02.210 I mentioned earlier. I think one of the blessings in 0:21:02.210 --> 0:21:06.610 life is to be happy, truly happy for other people's success. 0:21:07.369 --> 0:21:09.730 The carnal part of us says, oh, I wish I 0:21:09.730 --> 0:21:13.290 was like that person or that person. I would tell anybody, 0:21:13.330 --> 0:21:19.290 don't emulate other people. You want to emulate somebody, emulate Jesus. Okay. 0:21:19.650 --> 0:21:19.930 Yeah. 0:21:19.970 --> 0:21:22.609 Don't praise people. People aren't worthy of your praise. You 0:21:22.609 --> 0:21:24.770 want to praise somebody? Praise God in life. 0:21:25.690 --> 0:21:26.170 Mhm. 0:21:26.210 --> 0:21:30.130 Yeah. There's a lot of Lehman isms. Healthy relationships start 0:21:30.130 --> 0:21:35.050 with the three Rs, which is relationships relationships relationships. Yeah yeah. 0:21:35.090 --> 0:21:39.370 How about this. An unhappy person is a healthy person. 0:21:39.970 --> 0:21:41.570 Now that one gets people's attention. 0:21:41.609 --> 0:21:44.260 What do you mean? Yeah, yeah, I'm asking that. 0:21:44.859 --> 0:21:48.940 Sometimes your unhappiness is deserved. I say in the book, 0:21:48.940 --> 0:21:51.780 have a new kid by Friday. An unhappy child is 0:21:51.780 --> 0:21:55.580 a healthy child. Why? Because that little sucker deserves to 0:21:55.580 --> 0:21:58.580 be unhappy. Why? Because he dissed you. He disobeyed you. 0:21:58.619 --> 0:22:01.100 He lied. His hit his sister. I mean, I can 0:22:01.100 --> 0:22:03.940 go on and on and on. So our goal in 0:22:03.940 --> 0:22:08.540 life is not to create happy, happy, happy children, okay? 0:22:08.859 --> 0:22:14.699 Our goal as leaders isn't to create happy, happy, happy workers. 0:22:15.460 --> 0:22:18.460 Our goal is to create responsible workers who care about 0:22:18.460 --> 0:22:21.420 other people. But it starts with a look in the mirror. 0:22:21.460 --> 0:22:23.060 That's a good starting point. 0:22:23.859 --> 0:22:27.580 Yeah. Well, you talk about birth order in this book 0:22:27.580 --> 0:22:32.300 as well, which I would expect coming from you. But 0:22:32.500 --> 0:22:34.940 how does that knowledge of birth order help a leader 0:22:34.940 --> 0:22:38.659 understand coworkers as well as their family members? 0:22:39.460 --> 0:22:43.550 Well, I'm a youngest child in a family. I've had, uh, 0:22:43.550 --> 0:22:48.389 17 book editors in my life. And editors come from 0:22:48.390 --> 0:22:53.590 the publishing company, as you know. And, uh, 16 of them, Gary, 0:22:53.630 --> 0:22:57.470 have been firstborn or only born children. The other one 0:22:57.470 --> 0:23:03.830 was a flat out liar. Uh, and, you know, here's 0:23:03.830 --> 0:23:05.830 the kicker. And this goes back to one of the 0:23:05.830 --> 0:23:10.590 Lehman isms, the strengths you have as a leader many 0:23:10.590 --> 0:23:15.350 times become your weakness. You can spot a flaw at 0:23:15.350 --> 0:23:20.310 50 paces. We talk at our Lehman schools about vitamin E, 0:23:20.350 --> 0:23:24.550 which comes right out of Saint Paul's mouth. Encourage one another. 0:23:25.150 --> 0:23:27.750 We want to give a lot of vitamin E encouragement 0:23:27.750 --> 0:23:30.470 to those around us, but I pointed out that all 0:23:30.470 --> 0:23:34.950 my editors have been firstborn or only born children. My 0:23:35.670 --> 0:23:39.710 personal assistant, Debbie Backus, is a firstborn. She's been with 0:23:39.710 --> 0:23:43.399 me for 35 years, played piano in her church. A 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:47.120 great lady, but as a baby of the family, I 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:51.240 am not a detailed person. I have to admit that 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:53.320 I fly by the seat of my pants a lot 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:56.439 in life. I pray for guidance, but I do a 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.960 lot of flying and sometimes I get in trouble. But 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:05.639 if you know your weaknesses and my weakness is detail 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:10.439 and organization. I mean, I'm the founder of eight charter schools. 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:15.439 How do you function as the chairman of the board, 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:20.880 for example, without being detailed? Well, you have some help. 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:23.760 I have a personal assistant that does a lot of 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:28.080 organization for me. And so building a team, when you 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:30.359 think about your team, whether you're a small business owner 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:32.240 or whatever, you don't want a bunch of people who 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:35.600 all think the same or all have the same birth order. 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:39.240 I just got hired to speak to the Western Orthopedic 0:24:40.050 --> 0:24:44.889 Surgeons Association meeting out in Hawaii this summer, and I've 0:24:44.890 --> 0:24:47.010 spoke to them before, and I can tell you what 0:24:47.010 --> 0:24:50.130 my opening line is right now to the orthopedic surgeons. 0:24:50.130 --> 0:24:52.570 Why would you hire me to speak to you guys? 0:24:53.490 --> 0:24:58.330 Because I can't tell you guys anything. No one can. 0:24:58.890 --> 0:25:01.130 And they laugh at themselves. They know who they are. 0:25:02.090 --> 0:25:06.530 But you, you want your anesthesiologist. You want your orthopedic 0:25:06.530 --> 0:25:09.730 surgeon to be a perfectionist. But I point out in 0:25:09.730 --> 0:25:14.490 this book, the perfectionism is slow suicide. The perfect one 0:25:14.490 --> 0:25:19.410 is Jesus. So stop chasing the perfect thing and pursue 0:25:19.410 --> 0:25:22.730 excellence in your life. You said something really profound at 0:25:22.730 --> 0:25:26.530 the beginning of this interview. You said the leader solicits 0:25:26.530 --> 0:25:30.370 the advice of other people. Yeah, and if you're going 0:25:30.369 --> 0:25:32.530 to be a good leader today, there's a must. 0:25:38.650 --> 0:25:42.260 This is the podcast Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, 0:25:42.260 --> 0:25:45.580 author of the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. 0:25:45.980 --> 0:25:48.540 We're talking with Doctor Kevin Lehman today about his book, 0:25:48.580 --> 0:25:51.859 Be a Great Leader by Friday. Five Winning plays to 0:25:51.900 --> 0:25:56.220 spark your world changing potential. Go to building relationships us 0:25:56.220 --> 0:25:59.420 to find out more. Plus, find more ways to strengthen 0:25:59.420 --> 0:26:05.859 your relationships right there. Go to Building Relationships us. 0:26:06.140 --> 0:26:07.899 Well, Kevin, the name of the book is Be a 0:26:07.900 --> 0:26:11.700 Great Leader by Friday. Do you believe that's really possible? 0:26:12.500 --> 0:26:18.219 Well, it could be Wednesday if you're decisive enough. I think, 0:26:18.260 --> 0:26:20.260 you know, one of the things about being a leader 0:26:20.260 --> 0:26:23.659 is you have to be visible. You know, I don't 0:26:23.700 --> 0:26:29.060 I don't want to get political. But the last election 0:26:29.060 --> 0:26:33.380 was a very interesting one. And the leader of the 0:26:33.380 --> 0:26:39.070 ticket didn't do a very good job of being what? Visible. 0:26:40.310 --> 0:26:43.750 You have to be visible to be a good leader. 0:26:44.510 --> 0:26:47.630 You have to have confidence to be a good leader. 0:26:48.750 --> 0:26:54.230 And people follow leaders who are decisive and are specific 0:26:55.470 --> 0:26:59.910 and obviously have thought out plans and strategies that work. 0:27:00.710 --> 0:27:03.670 So I think any leader would tell you, I speak 0:27:03.670 --> 0:27:07.750 to the Young Presidents organization. I've been their resource for 0:27:07.750 --> 0:27:11.389 many years in many situations. I've been to one of 0:27:11.390 --> 0:27:14.950 their universities down in Mexico City, where you're met with 0:27:14.950 --> 0:27:17.950 a police escort, Gary, at the airport, and they take 0:27:17.950 --> 0:27:21.470 you to the hotel, probably because they don't want you shot. 0:27:21.510 --> 0:27:24.830 I don't know why they do that, but, you know, 0:27:24.869 --> 0:27:27.869 at Ypo, these guys, they call them young because to 0:27:27.910 --> 0:27:32.590 be in Ypo Young Presidents organization, you have to be 0:27:32.590 --> 0:27:35.830 under 50 years of age to be in it. Once 0:27:35.830 --> 0:27:37.639 you become a 40 niner, you sort of sort of 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:42.080 graduate into another group. But all these guys, for the 0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:47.520 most part, are multi-millionaires. They're movers and shakers. They warned 0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:51.359 me when I first spoke to Ypo. They said, listen, 0:27:51.359 --> 0:27:53.679 these guys are so driven to get every bit of 0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:59.200 information from every speaker. Don't be offended if people leave 0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:03.440 your session when you're speaking. Well, me is the baby 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:07.320 of the family. I took that as a challenge and 0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:09.880 I said to myself, I'm going to just see if 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:14.000 anybody leaves my session. And you get like two, 300 0:28:14.000 --> 0:28:18.679 people probably in each session, maybe more. And I can 0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:22.720 tell you, no one left. No one left. And the 0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:29.080 most common, uh, feedback I got from people was I 0:28:29.119 --> 0:28:34.520 loved your down to earth, honest, real life examples. I 0:28:34.560 --> 0:28:39.170 love the way you talked. I could listen to you forever. Well, 0:28:40.090 --> 0:28:44.450 I think again, as a leader, you have to adjust 0:28:44.450 --> 0:28:49.090 the people's levels depending upon who you're talking to, and 0:28:49.090 --> 0:28:52.730 you have to identify with them. And that's why you 0:28:52.730 --> 0:28:54.730 hang out with them, you know? In the old days, 0:28:54.730 --> 0:28:58.930 the shepherd was he was literally the gate. The sheep 0:28:58.930 --> 0:29:01.410 might be in a pen, but he actually laid down 0:29:01.970 --> 0:29:04.930 so that he knew if a sheep was, you know, 0:29:04.970 --> 0:29:07.850 trying to get out at night. He was the protector 0:29:08.850 --> 0:29:11.290 and the good shepherd. We see that in the Bible. 0:29:11.330 --> 0:29:12.810 You know, he went way out of his way to 0:29:12.850 --> 0:29:18.130 help that one. I mean, that real shepherd. Again, back 0:29:18.130 --> 0:29:20.130 to the word authentic. He's got to be real. He's 0:29:20.130 --> 0:29:24.330 got to love his people. But the good shepherd, he 0:29:24.330 --> 0:29:27.930 also had this thing called a rod with him. And 0:29:27.930 --> 0:29:30.370 the rod, by the way, wasn't used to beat the 0:29:30.370 --> 0:29:32.690 sheep over the head. Okay. I would take issue with 0:29:32.690 --> 0:29:37.540 anybody on that. But there's times when Gary Chapman, the shepherd, 0:29:37.540 --> 0:29:40.860 would say, okay, sheep, come on, let's move along. And, Gary, 0:29:40.860 --> 0:29:44.620 you might have one little sheep who looks at you defiantly, 0:29:44.660 --> 0:29:46.220 sort of like a four year old would do a 0:29:46.220 --> 0:29:49.180 mom or dad. And, you know, sort of dig their 0:29:49.220 --> 0:29:53.540 hoofs in and say, no, I'm not moving. Well, the 0:29:53.540 --> 0:29:56.660 good shepherd, Gary Chapman, would go over with his rod. 0:29:56.660 --> 0:29:58.980 And what would he do? He'd give him a little 0:29:58.980 --> 0:30:01.980 poke in the tail, move him along. He would use 0:30:01.980 --> 0:30:06.340 the rod to guide the sheep. And so when we 0:30:06.340 --> 0:30:09.580 think about leadership, we're not talking about biting people's heads 0:30:09.580 --> 0:30:13.180 off or humiliating them, calling them, calling them out in 0:30:13.180 --> 0:30:15.340 front of other people, we're going to use our heads. 0:30:15.980 --> 0:30:19.020 And so the rod of correction, you know, that's the 0:30:19.020 --> 0:30:21.940 time when you take that employee behind the closed doors. 0:30:22.660 --> 0:30:27.380 You speak the truth in love and you essentially say, 0:30:27.380 --> 0:30:29.020 you know, I want you to know I believe in you. 0:30:29.020 --> 0:30:30.700 I think you can do this, but I think we 0:30:30.700 --> 0:30:33.340 need to do some things different here. If you need 0:30:33.340 --> 0:30:36.150 some help, I need to know what specifically you need 0:30:36.190 --> 0:30:38.030 help with. And we'll get some people to help you, 0:30:38.190 --> 0:30:40.870 because I want to see you succeed in this job 0:30:40.870 --> 0:30:45.350 at this organization. That guy cannot walk away thinking, or 0:30:45.350 --> 0:30:47.750 that woman can't walk away thinking, boy, they don't care 0:30:47.750 --> 0:30:50.190 about me because they do. They're just trying to help. 0:30:50.710 --> 0:30:53.710 Yeah. That's great. You say in the book that there's 0:30:53.710 --> 0:30:56.150 two people that you would never put in the same 0:30:56.150 --> 0:31:00.310 room together without supervision. Who are those two people? 0:31:01.150 --> 0:31:04.390 Well, the two most likely candidates would be the two 0:31:04.390 --> 0:31:07.989 first born children. Or the two only children, because you 0:31:08.030 --> 0:31:10.870 got two people who know exactly how life ought to be. 0:31:10.910 --> 0:31:12.670 I mean, I can tell you that I've lived with 0:31:12.670 --> 0:31:15.990 this woman that I've been married to for 57 years 0:31:15.990 --> 0:31:21.630 in a row. I want to emphasize in a row, uh, 0:31:21.710 --> 0:31:26.830 we're driving last night, and, uh, all I did was 0:31:26.830 --> 0:31:31.070 turn left. Now, Gary, that's a very simple thing. Just 0:31:31.070 --> 0:31:36.960 turn left. Do you think she could let that one go? Oh, no. No. Oh, honey, 0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:39.880 you know what? Um, she's got a better idea. She's 0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:44.880 the firstborn. Okay. You put two firstborns, she says all 0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:46.280 you got to do is go down here and hit 0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:49.400 this street, and you buy on the interstate in a second. Well, 0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:52.400 that's how firstborns are. They can spot a flaw at 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:58.440 50 paces. They tend to know everything. Okay. They've been 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:01.800 the centerpiece of their family since day one. So, yeah. 0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:06.239 Two firstborns. Uh, or how about two babies? They've been 0:32:06.240 --> 0:32:08.719 in that same room for an hour, and one of 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:11.800 them says, hey, I forgot what was the assignment they 0:32:11.800 --> 0:32:12.640 gave us to do? 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:14.720 Yeah. 0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:18.520 Because they were talking about everything. But. So, yeah, it 0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:20.960 gets back to, hey, if you're a leader, make sure 0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:24.640 your team has a good reputation. And I'm not here 0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:26.880 to tell you that birth order is the next best 0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:30.400 thing to to slice bread. But I'm telling you that. 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:33.730 Isn't it amazing that if you look at any family, 0:32:34.130 --> 0:32:36.170 the 3 or 4 little cubs that come out of 0:32:36.210 --> 0:32:39.810 that family. Guess what? They're all different. And that speaks 0:32:39.810 --> 0:32:45.490 to the genius of God who made all of us different. 0:32:45.570 --> 0:32:48.130 I always point out to people who are interested in 0:32:48.130 --> 0:32:53.010 birth order identical twins. When I found this out, Gary, 0:32:53.050 --> 0:32:56.930 I cried and laughed at the same time. Identical twins 0:32:57.450 --> 0:33:01.770 who have the same DNA have different fingerprints. Why did 0:33:01.770 --> 0:33:06.130 God do that? To help the FBI. Or was this 0:33:06.130 --> 0:33:07.890 God's way of saying, you are my son? You are 0:33:07.890 --> 0:33:10.650 my daughter. You are different than everyone else. So I 0:33:10.650 --> 0:33:13.650 would just say to any leader, get behind the eyes 0:33:13.650 --> 0:33:17.010 of these people you work with. Figure out what strengths 0:33:17.010 --> 0:33:20.170 each person has and make sure you have diversity in 0:33:20.170 --> 0:33:24.330 the strengths in the teams that you build on that 0:33:24.490 --> 0:33:27.570 corporation or business called the bus. 0:33:27.610 --> 0:33:31.290 Yeah, I think our leaders who, who, who are in 0:33:31.290 --> 0:33:35.580 positions and thinking about leadership or really taking notes on this? 0:33:35.580 --> 0:33:37.180 I hope so, and then I hope you're going to 0:33:37.180 --> 0:33:40.500 get the book, because this book, these practical things we're 0:33:40.500 --> 0:33:43.780 talking about are spelled out in the book. And you 0:33:43.780 --> 0:33:48.380 mentioned that there's two vitamins that leaders need. One, you've 0:33:48.380 --> 0:33:53.220 already mentioned E, vitamin E encourage, but then you said 0:33:53.220 --> 0:33:55.340 vitamin N, what is that for? 0:33:56.300 --> 0:33:59.380 Well, vitamin N and again what I love about this, 0:33:59.380 --> 0:34:02.620 you could look at parenthood. Yeah we all need vitamin E, 0:34:03.260 --> 0:34:07.860 but kids need vitamin N, and so do workers. So 0:34:07.860 --> 0:34:12.219 do managers. Uh, as a leader, you have to be 0:34:12.219 --> 0:34:17.780 the decision maker. I mean, there's other vitamins from accountability 0:34:17.780 --> 0:34:21.500 to I like vitamin L, which is laughter. And, you know, 0:34:21.540 --> 0:34:24.220 I mean, there's all kinds of vitamins that go into 0:34:24.260 --> 0:34:28.060 building a business, but vitamin E, I love the encouragement, 0:34:28.060 --> 0:34:32.190 but I love vitamin N, because you'll see there's three 0:34:32.190 --> 0:34:36.830 basic types of leaders in life, Gary. There's the authoritarians 0:34:37.550 --> 0:34:40.510 who see themselves as the boss, who just tell people 0:34:40.510 --> 0:34:44.750 what to do. Then there's the permissive who are driven 0:34:45.710 --> 0:34:48.270 on the premise that everybody has to like me. Well, 0:34:48.270 --> 0:34:53.030 good luck with that. And then there's the authoritative leader, 0:34:53.469 --> 0:34:55.710 and that's what I would like to see in action 0:34:55.710 --> 0:35:01.509 across our country today is leaders who are authoritative. Those 0:35:01.510 --> 0:35:07.350 are leaders who's who's no is no and who's yes 0:35:07.390 --> 0:35:11.950 is yes. There are people who aren't afraid to make decisions. 0:35:12.550 --> 0:35:16.550 They're not overly impressed with trying to make everybody happy 0:35:16.550 --> 0:35:20.310 with the decisions that they're coming up with. But in 0:35:20.310 --> 0:35:24.390 the process, they're soliciting the input of people that work 0:35:24.390 --> 0:35:27.430 with that leader. That's what's really important. In fact, that 0:35:27.430 --> 0:35:29.069 was one of the things I think you mentioned at 0:35:29.070 --> 0:35:33.560 the beginning of this interview that the smart leader solicits opinions, 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:37.319 welcomes feedback from those around him. You got to be 0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:40.799 pretty secure. You want people around you not who are 0:35:40.800 --> 0:35:43.520 just a bunch of yes people. You want people who 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:48.319 are going to sometimes challenge what you're thinking about. It 0:35:48.320 --> 0:35:51.800 helps refine the the metal, so to speak, by putting 0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:55.719 the thing to the fire. So there's a lot to 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:58.160 being a leader. But, you know, people have said to 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:02.120 me over the years enough that I feel free and 0:36:02.120 --> 0:36:07.320 sharing this without trying to sound pompous, but people say 0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:11.000 I never get lost with big words in your books. 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:14.960 You keep things simple down to earth. And I think 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:19.680 successful people and people that I've really admired in life, 0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:23.279 people that I've rubbed shoulders with over the years. I 0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:27.160 think what attracts me to some of them, most of them, 0:36:27.160 --> 0:36:31.730 I should say, is they're down to earth Nature. I've 0:36:31.730 --> 0:36:36.049 done all those secular shows on TV, you know. Really? 0:36:36.050 --> 0:36:38.810 I've done. There's hardly one of them I ever missed. 0:36:39.170 --> 0:36:42.330 But I think of Regis Philbin, who has now left 0:36:42.330 --> 0:36:45.730 this earth. He was the most down to earth guy 0:36:45.890 --> 0:36:51.170 I'd ever met. And interestingly enough, the governor of Oklahoma, 0:36:51.210 --> 0:36:54.410 Frank Keating, invited me and a fellow by the name 0:36:54.410 --> 0:36:58.330 of Bill Cosby. And I spent the day with Cosby, 0:36:59.170 --> 0:37:02.210 and he was so down to earth and nice to people. 0:37:02.730 --> 0:37:07.130 And when the tragic news came out about his his life, 0:37:07.850 --> 0:37:12.450 I was devastated. I thought, how could that be? He 0:37:12.450 --> 0:37:15.410 took time to talk to people that, quite frankly, he 0:37:15.410 --> 0:37:19.169 didn't have to talk to. I'd met a lot of 0:37:19.170 --> 0:37:22.569 I won't name names on people. Big time celebrities. You'd 0:37:22.570 --> 0:37:25.250 know every one of them I'd name. But I didn't 0:37:25.250 --> 0:37:27.569 even like being around, to tell you the truth. I 0:37:27.570 --> 0:37:30.420 just sort of avoided them. So I think if you 0:37:30.460 --> 0:37:34.420 come in, don't be impressed with yourself, okay? I don't 0:37:34.460 --> 0:37:38.180 if if God's giving you success in life, then thank 0:37:38.180 --> 0:37:42.419 God for your success. Okay. It's real simple. Yeah. Don't 0:37:42.420 --> 0:37:46.100 think you did it. Because, God, if you're a believer 0:37:47.420 --> 0:37:50.899 and you said, God, take charge of my life. Trust 0:37:50.900 --> 0:37:55.100 him in all things. Then give God the glory. Don't. 0:37:55.100 --> 0:37:58.219 Don't sit there and try to make yourself into something 0:37:58.660 --> 0:38:02.460 that you're not. I've always used self-depreciating humor, which sort 0:38:02.460 --> 0:38:05.820 of helps me travel that gauntlet in life. I've done that, 0:38:05.820 --> 0:38:09.020 I think, fairly well for a baby of the family anyway. 0:38:09.540 --> 0:38:13.940 I would agree with that. Yeah. Kevin, as you know, 0:38:13.940 --> 0:38:16.940 I have worked on a church staff all these years 0:38:16.940 --> 0:38:19.140 and all my counseling and everything has been done in 0:38:19.180 --> 0:38:24.540 that context. Uh, what mistakes from your perspective do leaders 0:38:24.540 --> 0:38:26.940 in the church often make? 0:38:28.260 --> 0:38:33.469 Well, let's start with, uh, the pastor. Okay. I'm so 0:38:33.469 --> 0:38:37.549 glad you asked that question, because just this week, I had, uh, 0:38:37.550 --> 0:38:41.270 breakfast with my pastor. I go to a large a 0:38:41.310 --> 0:38:46.750 non-denominational church here in Tucson, and our pastor is a 0:38:46.790 --> 0:38:52.230 terrific speaker. And, uh, I reminded him in our conversation 0:38:52.989 --> 0:38:55.109 because he had just taken off with his wife, they 0:38:55.110 --> 0:38:58.270 had some R&R for a week before the Christmas season. 0:38:59.270 --> 0:39:03.910 This goes back several months now, but, um, I just 0:39:03.910 --> 0:39:07.069 applauded his efforts that to get away once in a 0:39:07.110 --> 0:39:11.110 while with your wife and to prioritize. And I always 0:39:11.110 --> 0:39:14.989 get people's attention with this. But hey, pastors, don't put 0:39:14.989 --> 0:39:20.710 the church first, okay? Put your wife first. Your kids 0:39:20.710 --> 0:39:22.670 need to be like, Avis, rent a car. Number two 0:39:22.670 --> 0:39:26.390 and trying harder in some place. Some people are saying, well, 0:39:26.390 --> 0:39:29.239 wait a minute, hold on a Where's God in all this? Well, 0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:32.640 God's in everything that's a given. But in terms of people, 0:39:33.120 --> 0:39:35.720 you know. Oh, honey, I'd love to help you, but 0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:38.759 you know that there's a board meeting down there, and 0:39:38.760 --> 0:39:40.839 you know how Harry gets some nights I better go 0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:44.880 down there and make sure that things run smoothly. I 0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:49.920 think pastors run the risk of feeling like they're indispensable. 0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.040 And they have to be. They have to have hands 0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:57.799 in everything in the church, which they don't. I think pastors, 0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:01.400 many of them, make the mistake of making their wife 0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:05.680 feel like she has to be thoroughly involved in the church. 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:08.720 I'll get people's attention with this one. I don't think 0:40:08.719 --> 0:40:12.279 a pastor's wife has to be involved in anything in 0:40:12.280 --> 0:40:15.600 the church. Anything if she doesn't choose to. 0:40:16.400 --> 0:40:17.120 Yeah. 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.080 Other than the worship and be a good helpmate to 0:40:21.120 --> 0:40:25.360 her husband. I know that's blasphemy in some circles, but 0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:30.850 I've seen it. I've seen so many pastors fall. You can't, 0:40:31.489 --> 0:40:33.810 you know, read a newspaper. That's how old I am. 0:40:33.810 --> 0:40:37.569 I still read newspapers. Or go on your computer and 0:40:37.570 --> 0:40:41.250 get Yahoo news and and you know, you can't go 0:40:41.250 --> 0:40:44.450 a month without finding where some Christian leader has failed. Hey, 0:40:44.450 --> 0:40:47.730 we're all we're full of failure. Yeah, we're redeemed through 0:40:47.730 --> 0:40:50.490 the blood of Jesus. And, you know, I'm just saying, 0:40:51.969 --> 0:40:58.129 if you're real, uh. Then prioritize. Be the model to 0:40:58.130 --> 0:41:01.049 your people in life. And I'm not talking about being perfect. 0:41:01.130 --> 0:41:03.570 I think one of the great things I love about 0:41:03.570 --> 0:41:06.890 my pastor is he's vulnerable. He shares in the pulpit 0:41:06.890 --> 0:41:10.210 sometimes things he struggles with. That's a source of encouragement 0:41:10.210 --> 0:41:15.569 to me, not discouragement. Yeah. So I would say to everybody, uh, 0:41:15.570 --> 0:41:21.170 this is February. We got Valentine's Day in this month. Uh, 0:41:21.170 --> 0:41:23.529 some people call it the Love month. What was the 0:41:23.530 --> 0:41:25.690 last time you took the time to write a note 0:41:25.690 --> 0:41:29.180 to your pastor or to your kid's Sunday school teacher 0:41:29.900 --> 0:41:33.060 and say, hey, I appreciate if you still have a 0:41:33.060 --> 0:41:35.580 choir in your church or a praise band or whatever, 0:41:35.820 --> 0:41:39.020 taking the time to thank people for the hours that 0:41:39.020 --> 0:41:43.580 they put into preparing for that Sunday morning worship. Yeah, 0:41:43.620 --> 0:41:49.420 I mean, stop stop thinking about yourself, right? That powerful, uh, 0:41:49.420 --> 0:41:53.380 note packed with vitamin E, which is encouragement, just thanking 0:41:53.380 --> 0:41:57.180 people for the contribution that they give back to this 0:41:57.180 --> 0:42:00.860 body of believers called the church. Yeah, stuff like that. 0:42:01.900 --> 0:42:06.660 So important, so important. You mentioned the whole issue that 0:42:06.660 --> 0:42:09.860 none of us are perfect, that we all make mistakes, 0:42:09.900 --> 0:42:13.540 and leaders are people and they make mistakes. How important 0:42:13.540 --> 0:42:16.220 is it that we learn from our mistakes? 0:42:17.020 --> 0:42:19.060 Well, it's a if you want to really be a 0:42:19.060 --> 0:42:21.700 lifelong leader, which I hope everybody wants to be as 0:42:21.700 --> 0:42:26.589 a leader. It starts with realizing that. Well, I'll go 0:42:26.590 --> 0:42:30.950 to a scripture. Uh, King Solomon. I think the very 0:42:30.950 --> 0:42:35.150 last verse is in Proverbs three, and he will direct 0:42:35.150 --> 0:42:38.469 your paths. I wrote a book on that called The 0:42:38.469 --> 0:42:41.189 Way of the wise, by the way. I lehmanni you'll 0:42:41.190 --> 0:42:46.270 love this one, pastor Gary Chapman I demonized the scripture, 0:42:46.270 --> 0:42:51.310 which I'll probably pay for it someday, but. But I 0:42:51.350 --> 0:42:55.270 love that little scripture. And he he gives six little 0:42:55.270 --> 0:42:58.709 verses there. And I took ten major themes from those 0:42:58.710 --> 0:43:03.109 six verses. But I love the fact it says, and 0:43:03.110 --> 0:43:06.910 he will direct your paths. And I want to remind 0:43:06.910 --> 0:43:11.830 people in life, God doesn't give you just one path. Gary, 0:43:11.830 --> 0:43:15.390 when you started out ministry, did you think you were 0:43:15.390 --> 0:43:17.710 going to be a New York Times best selling author? 0:43:18.430 --> 0:43:19.710 Never crossed my mind. 0:43:21.390 --> 0:43:24.150 Never crossed my mind either. I said that, Gary, he's 0:43:24.150 --> 0:43:28.440 never going to do anything in life. No, I said 0:43:28.480 --> 0:43:32.880 I said that about myself. But, you know, so my 0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:35.920 wife Sandy, always says we make plans and God laughs. 0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:39.719 So as you, as you go through life, realize that 0:43:39.719 --> 0:43:42.640 you have different paths in life and you learn as 0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:46.719 you go. And there's times you look back and you say, 0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:49.960 you know, last week at that meeting, I sort of 0:43:50.000 --> 0:43:54.480 ran over Fred's feelings, you know, to a leader, I 0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:57.400 would say, get on the honker, get on the phone, 0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:00.520 call Fred and Fred. Fred have been talking, thinking about 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:03.440 you this week, and I've been thinking about what I 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:05.359 said to you at that meeting. And I have to 0:44:05.360 --> 0:44:09.239 tell you that I. I'm really ashamed of myself. Would 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:14.440 probably be the best word. I think I mistakenly just 0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:18.839 ran over your feelings, and I'm just profusely sorry that 0:44:18.840 --> 0:44:23.160 I did that. Now I'm just telling you that that 0:44:23.489 --> 0:44:27.610 will solidify the relationship with that guy forever. In fact, 0:44:27.730 --> 0:44:32.450 research says this when you buy a product or obtain 0:44:32.450 --> 0:44:36.050 a service and you rant and you rave and you 0:44:36.050 --> 0:44:40.130 write a nasty note or whatever, and that person comes 0:44:40.130 --> 0:44:44.130 back and apologizes to you for the poor service, puts 0:44:44.130 --> 0:44:47.290 it in writing, says hey, comes back and gives. You'll 0:44:47.290 --> 0:44:51.090 take 22 different actions in one week to tell people 0:44:51.090 --> 0:44:54.450 about this wonderful business that you were going to file 0:44:54.450 --> 0:44:58.490 a complaint with the Better Business Bureau about. Why? Because 0:44:58.489 --> 0:45:02.570 they apologize. They made things right. So as a leader, 0:45:02.730 --> 0:45:06.330 be the first to say, I'm sorry I was wrong. 0:45:06.890 --> 0:45:13.009 Would you forgive me? Those are people that will attract attention. 0:45:13.010 --> 0:45:15.009 Those are people who will be leaders that people will 0:45:15.050 --> 0:45:17.690 want to follow. Yeah. In fact, let me give you 0:45:17.690 --> 0:45:21.969 a quick a quick little out of raising kids. They 0:45:21.969 --> 0:45:23.980 always say, don't try this at home. I'm saying to 0:45:24.020 --> 0:45:26.500 every young parent listening, you got a kid between 3 0:45:26.500 --> 0:45:29.250 and 4. Try this at home. Say to a 3 0:45:29.250 --> 0:45:32.180 or 4 year old with your arms outstretched. Come here. 0:45:32.820 --> 0:45:35.700 Nine out of ten times the kid will go south. 0:45:36.700 --> 0:45:39.780 If you want the kid to come toward you, extend 0:45:39.780 --> 0:45:42.700 your arms toward the kid. Say the same words. Come here, 0:45:42.780 --> 0:45:46.859 but walk backwards slowly. And that little guy will come 0:45:46.860 --> 0:45:51.899 to you. It's a word picture, but it works. And 0:45:51.900 --> 0:45:54.020 that's how you have to be with people. You don't 0:45:54.020 --> 0:45:55.140 carry a big stick. 0:45:55.940 --> 0:46:00.419 Yeah. Well, Kevin, this hour has gone quickly. And I 0:46:00.420 --> 0:46:02.740 want to thank you again for being with us today. 0:46:02.739 --> 0:46:04.739 And thank you for writing this book. I think this 0:46:04.739 --> 0:46:07.459 is going to help a lot of folks because many, 0:46:07.460 --> 0:46:10.060 many people are in leadership roles. In fact, as we 0:46:10.060 --> 0:46:14.339 said earlier, all of us are leading somebody. So thanks 0:46:14.340 --> 0:46:17.140 for being with us today, and may God continue to 0:46:17.140 --> 0:46:19.660 give you wisdom in all that you're doing and all 0:46:19.660 --> 0:46:22.230 that he still has planned for you and your life. 0:46:22.710 --> 0:46:25.149 Thank you. Gary. You know I love you. Take care 0:46:25.150 --> 0:46:28.390 of yourself. I'm happy you got this program. It's very relevant. 0:46:28.390 --> 0:46:31.549 And it's all about relationships. And, Ben, we need help 0:46:31.550 --> 0:46:32.270 in that one. 0:46:32.790 --> 0:46:33.870 Yeah. You're right. 0:46:34.310 --> 0:46:36.390 Doctor Kevin Lehman has been our guest. You can see 0:46:36.390 --> 0:46:40.190 our featured resource at Building Relationships. Us the book Be 0:46:40.190 --> 0:46:43.430 a Great Leader by Friday. Five winning plays to spark 0:46:43.469 --> 0:46:48.509 your world changing potential. Just go to building Relationships us. 0:46:48.550 --> 0:46:52.110 And next week we'll talk about how to love and 0:46:52.110 --> 0:46:55.230 like your spouse for a lifetime. 0:46:55.230 --> 0:46:58.390 Arlene Pellekaan joins us in one week. Before we go, 0:46:58.430 --> 0:47:01.230 let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice. 0:47:01.230 --> 0:47:04.950 Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production 0:47:04.950 --> 0:47:08.790 of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry 0:47:08.790 --> 0:47:11.469 of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.