S1: To get behind that person's eyes and to make sure
S1: that person is not only on the right bus, but
S1: the right seat of the bus. You really have to
S1: take the time to know and learn and understand how
S1: that person sees life. So this isn't rocket science. There
S1: is a method to the madness, so to speak, here.
S2: Welcome to Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S2: internationally known psychologist, radio and TV personality, educator and author
S2: Doctor Kevin Leman joins us. If you are in any
S2: kind of leadership position and you want to improve your skills,
S2: today's program is for you.
S3: Doctor Leman has written more than 70 books that have
S3: helped people of all ages. You may know him from
S3: his work on birth order. His latest is Be a
S3: Great Leader by Friday. Five Winning plays to spark your
S3: world changing potential. It's our featured resource at Building Relationships relationships.us.
S3: And Gary, you have known a lot of leaders through
S3: the years. Some good, some maybe not so good. What
S3: do you see as one of the top characteristics of
S3: a good leader?
S4: You know, Chris, I think I would say be authentic.
S4: Tell the truth. Don't tell one person one thing and
S4: another person another thing. And I would also say, not
S4: only that, but be open to input from the people
S4: on your team, whatever your leadership role. Don't be limited
S4: to your own wisdom. Ask for ideas on how we
S4: can make things better and be open to considering those ideas.
S4: Those are a couple of thoughts that come to my mind,
S4: but I am really excited about our program today because
S4: Doctor Kevin Lehman, I've known him for a long, long time.
S4: And I think this is going to help a lot
S4: of folks. And listen, everybody's a leader in some area. Okay.
S3: Exactly. Yes.
S4: If you're only leading your dog, you're still a leader. Okay.
S4: So I hope our listeners will stay tuned to us
S4: and we're going to learn some good things.
S3: Well, Doctor Kevin Leman is The New York Times best
S3: selling author of more than 70 books, including the birth
S3: order book Have a New Kid by Friday. Making Children Mind,
S3: Without Losing Yours, and many others. He's made thousands of
S3: house calls through radio and TV programs. A practicing psychologist
S3: for 40 plus years, Doctor Lim has helped millions understand
S3: the dynamics of healthy relationships. He and his wife, Sandi,
S3: live in Arizona. They have five children and four grandchildren.
S3: His book, Be a Great Leader by Friday is our
S3: featured resource. Just go to Building Relationships us.
S4: Well, Doctor Leman, welcome to Building Relationships.
S1: Well, you know what? We go back a long time.
S1: I was just thinking. I think your son was 14
S1: years old when I had dinner in your home years ago.
S1: So just how many years ago was that?
S4: Well, he's 50. He's 54 now.
S1: 40 years do go way back. But you know, I'm
S1: so glad when they when they asked you about, you know,
S1: marks of a leader, you started with authenticity and maybe I'll,
S1: I'll tag along on that because leave it to a
S1: bunch of experimental psychologists. Check this one out. They found
S1: a shepherd with a large flock of sheep, and they
S1: thought they would try an experiment. They took the shepherd
S1: out of the flock. They found someone of his approximate stature.
S1: The imposter actually wore the same clothing that the shepherd
S1: had on. They digitized his call. And today, with electronics,
S1: you can nail a sound perfectly. And they bellowed it
S1: across the meadow. And all the sheep did something interesting.
S1: They turned around and they looked, but they didn't follow
S1: the imposter shepherd. Isn't that interesting? We think that sheep
S1: are stupid. I'm here to tell you. I think sheep
S1: are pretty smart. But if you're going to be a leader.
S1: And by the way, if you have to tell people
S1: that you're a leader, you're not. The point is that
S1: for a leader to be effective, there has to be
S1: that authenticity. And without that, you're going to fail. So
S1: this book that I've done, uh, be a great leader
S1: by Friday, and I admit, I got hung up on
S1: Friday on several of my books, but it's really it's
S1: really the sequel to The Way of the Shepherd, which
S1: has been a mega bestseller. It's still in hardback for
S1: 20 years. Anybody who knows the book industry knows that
S1: after one year in hardback, it gets dropped into paper.
S1: So the way the shepherd is sort of the big
S1: picture of leadership, this is sort of for the person
S1: who is struggling from the wannabe a leader to the
S1: CEO to the CFO. It could probably be titled How
S1: to Succeed in Life, because I think the basic truths
S1: that are in this leadership book help you in every
S1: aspect of your life, whether it's your marriage or your parenthood,
S1: or in your work as a as a manager or
S1: a business person.
S4: Yeah. Well, yeah, you've written a lot. Of course. Birth order,
S4: all of us are familiar with that. And but also relationships, marriage, parenting,
S4: all those things. But I don't I don't know that
S4: you've written a book on leadership before. So what what
S4: motivated you to write a book on leadership?
S1: Well, Gary, it was a God thing. As you as
S1: you recall, we used to have these big Christian booksellers conventions,
S1: and I had met a pastor friend and we were
S1: just sort of talking. He wanted to to do a
S1: book someday, and we just started talking about what kind
S1: of a book it would be. He was a business
S1: guy himself, and, and we sort of brainstormed and we
S1: came this up with this idea of a leadership book
S1: called The Way the Shepherd. And we did it together. And,
S1: you know, when you do a book with two people,
S1: it's not always easy to synchronize. But we pulled it off.
S1: And to date, I just looked at the book. I
S1: just got a royalty statement last week from the publisher,
S1: and I believe this figure is accurate. It's at 237,000
S1: copies sold in hardback. And as you know, in hardback,
S1: that's you've sold millions, as have I, in some books. Uh,
S1: but you just you just don't get those kind of
S1: numbers without it scratching where, where people itch. Yeah. In fact,
S1: I just got a call from a big church in
S1: California where they just ordered 4000 copies of that way.
S1: The Shepherd book, so for their congregation is a gift, uh,
S1: to their members. But, um, I I'm getting away from
S1: my point. So, yeah, that's the big picture book. And, uh,
S1: it was a God thing, I say, because we went
S1: to the convention and you and I know a lot
S1: of different publishers, and I ran into a guy over
S1: at Zondervan in the backdrop. Was that his family? Guess what?
S1: They raised sheep. So I was just sort of shopping
S1: this idea around to publishers. But on first strike, when
S1: I met this gentleman from Zondervan Publishers, he fell in
S1: love with the idea. We rolled with it about nine
S1: months later. We had a book in hand and and
S1: it became an immediately a bestseller. The the irony is,
S1: and this is just for you, Gary, not so much
S1: for our listeners, but in fact, I wrote a note
S1: to Zondervan once that said, you know, I think it'd
S1: be a really good idea to maybe tell people that
S1: this book is out there. So if it sounds like
S1: I'm flaunting them publicly, I don't mean to, but, you know,
S1: I've seen it all in the publishing world. I mean,
S1: I wrote a book once that I thought would be
S1: a mega bestseller. It was the worst one I ever,
S1: I ever released, so who knows? But this is a
S1: book that really for that person, how do I become
S1: a leader? This is sort of a step by step,
S1: loaded with tips and stories from other leaders, uh, as well,
S1: about how do I get from A to B?
S4: Yeah, yeah. Well, Kevin, we're talking about leadership in your book.
S4: Be a Great Leader by Friday. You know, uh, what
S4: would you say is the most important thing a leader
S4: needs to know?
S1: Well, I think they have to know that it's, uh.
S1: It's all about being personal. Leadership is personal. It's not something.
S1: It's arm's length. In fact, I was talking to a
S1: young CEO the other day, a woman, and I asked her.
S1: I said, hey, tell me, what do you do when
S1: somebody in your group does something outstandingly well? Good. She said, well,
S1: I send them an email. I said, that is a second,
S1: second dumbest thing one could do. The dumbest thing you
S1: could do is just ignore it. But who wants another email?
S1: And so I talk in in be a Great Leader
S1: by Friday about the power of a personal note. I
S1: have personal notes from people who I love and respect.
S1: I have to tell you, Gary, I haven't thrown any
S1: of those out. I got to know Herb Kelleher. In fact,
S1: I interviewed him and got to know him fairly well,
S1: and he was the chairman of the board of Southwest Airlines.
S1: He was the youngest child in his family, by the way,
S1: which proves that great leaders can even come from the
S1: baby position of the family. If you've ever flown on southwest.
S1: You probably had more fun. On southwest than any other
S1: airline you've ever flown. They give their flight attendants great
S1: leeway and entertaining people as they give those announcements. It's
S1: just a fun airline. But three years after I had
S1: visited with him extensively, I ran into him by accident
S1: at the Dallas Fort Worth airport. He, without blinking an eye,
S1: he looked at me and said, Kevin, how are you?
S1: He had a he was a great leader. But he
S1: said something that's really interesting. He said, you know, at southwest,
S1: we're in the service business. And it's incidental that we
S1: also fly airplanes.
S4: Hmm.
S1: I never forgot that. I thought, yeah, we are in
S1: the service. I mean, we're servants as Christians were to
S1: be servants. So this is a book about servant leadership.
S1: And one of the kickers is this that I don't
S1: care where you are in life, how smart you are,
S1: or how many degrees you have, what accolades people have
S1: given you. People don't care what you have to say
S1: until they know you care. Yeah, that's just premise number one.
S1: So this book is all about living the Christian life.
S1: It's treating people the way you should treat people. But
S1: it is a guide to success for those who are
S1: wavering and not sure how to proceed.
S4: Yeah, yeah. You know, I hear a lot of people
S4: use the term born leaders. He's a born leader. Is
S4: there truth in that, or what would you say to that?
S1: Well, you know, I think there's some truth in it.
S1: You know, some of my background. I don't mean to
S1: be repetitive to people that some people have heard this
S1: too many times, but I was the youngest child in
S1: the family. I I graduated fourth of my class in
S1: high school. Unfortunately, I was fourth in the bottom and
S1: not fourth in the top. That was problem number one.
S1: My high school counselor and this is a quote. In fact,
S1: I dedicated my very first book to him. He said, Lehman,
S1: with your grades and your record, I couldn't get you
S1: into reform school. But looking back, looking back, I had
S1: a sister who was perfect, an older sister who ended
S1: up being a children's pastor. Okay, how do you beat
S1: that one? And then I had a brother who was
S1: a straight-A student as well. And I've psyched myself out.
S1: Shrunk myself. Years ago, I was the baby of three.
S1: I had two little bluebirds above me who did everything right.
S1: And looking back, I think I made a conscious effort
S1: to be the best at being the worst, because that's
S1: how I got attention. And so when I do TV
S1: shows in New York on those morning shows. My litmus
S1: test is do I get the audio guy and the
S1: the lighting guy to laugh? Well, I've had some long
S1: talks with God about that because drawing attention to you
S1: self is not a good idea. I mean, God hates
S1: pride and I've I've talked my way around that one.
S1: I've learned to be joyful for other people's success. Uh,
S1: and I think that's really a gift that God gives
S1: you over a period of time. But no, I think
S1: looking back, I, I was sort of a born salesman
S1: because I that's how I got around things. People ask
S1: me about all the things you've done in life I've gotten,
S1: you know, you get honorary doctorate degrees and accolades from
S1: different groups and stuff. And I say, well, when I
S1: think about what I've done, what really makes me laugh
S1: is I talked my way into Disney World for nine
S1: free tickets. It took me 20 minutes. I planned on ten,
S1: but I did that, you know. Your wife Caroline. Your wife,
S1: Caroline has a similar personality to me. I hope you
S1: don't regret me saying that.
S4: But.
S1: But she is so much fun. In fact, you might
S1: remember this. I told your wife once. I said, Caroline,
S1: if you and I were married, we would have the
S1: best marriage for a full seven days. One week. Because
S1: we're too much alike, you know. But but I, I,
S1: I talked my way. I still laugh to this day
S1: thinking about how did I do that? And I did
S1: that using some, I think, natural born skills that God
S1: gave me. I used to apologize for using humor at seminars.
S1: And now I tell people, you know, when God gives
S1: you the gift of humor, use humor, but do it
S1: for the right way. I mean, how do you survive
S1: doing the view on ABC as I've done a couple
S1: times without using humor. Those women could care less about me,
S1: but I use humor to keep them at bay.
S4: Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I think this. Yeah. Well,
S4: in the book you talk about, uh, you know, in
S4: order to motivate people, uh, you have to employ the
S4: three R's. What are the three R's?
S1: And you'll love this one, Gary, because the name of
S1: your program. Relationships. Relationships. Relationships. So if you're interested in
S1: changing behavior of those that are on your staff, the
S1: first thing you have to do is get behind their
S1: eyes and see how they see life. And I point
S1: out firstborn children, for example. Well, here, I'll put it
S1: in a question form. Do firstborn children buy a brand
S1: new automobile like us? babies of the family. That's the question.
S1: And the answer is no, they don't, because the firstborn
S1: is going to read Car and Driver magazine. The firstborn
S1: is going to look at the specification page. Us babies
S1: of the family. We could care less about the specification page.
S1: We say such profound things on the car lot is Shazam.
S1: Do you have one with gold trim? I'll take it.
S1: So to to get behind that person's eyes and to
S1: make sure that person is not only on the right bus, Gary,
S1: but the right seat of the bus, you really have
S1: to have to take the time to know and learn
S1: and understand how that person sees life. So this isn't
S1: rocket science. There is a method to the madness, so
S1: to speak, here.
S4: Yeah. I want to go back to your personal life again.
S4: I remember there was a time in which you sold
S4: magazines door to door. Uh, what did you learn from
S4: that job? Well.
S1: They dumped you off in the summertime. Thanks for asking
S1: that question. I was just thrown out of college. I
S1: was 19 years old, I was smoking. Uh, let's see,
S1: what were those called? Uh, Newport cigarettes. Uh, I had
S1: greasy hair. I had my belt on the side, so
S1: to speak. I was a little greaseball. I mean, I
S1: was going nowhere, and this was before I knew Christ
S1: as my Savior and Lord. And they dropped us off
S1: in 105 degree weather and said, meet back on this
S1: corner in five hours. And you you pounded on doors
S1: and you sold magazines. Well, I came back, I had
S1: my orders with me. And back in those days, a
S1: full magazine subscription. This was 1962, I believe. A magazine
S1: subscription was $87.50. And the kicker was to always get
S1: the up front money, which was $2.50 with the order.
S1: So you'd knock on the door and say, I'm doing
S1: market research in your area, and you hand them a card, say,
S1: just pick any seven magazines you want, absolutely free. That
S1: was the pitch. Mm. I take the orders back. I
S1: still remember the woman's name. Her name was Joyce Berman.
S1: She was the. And she looked at me and she
S1: looked at my order. She said, what is that? I said,
S1: those are my orders. And I thought, oh, I'm in trouble.
S1: I didn't sell enough magazines. She said, those are your orders.
S1: And I said, yes. She said, come with me, Calvin.
S1: She called me Calvin and she and she took me
S1: into the boss's office and she said, look what Calvin did.
S1: I had 27 orders, which I later found out was
S1: a record for a morning walk in a neighborhood for
S1: this company. And I think it was then that I
S1: figured out, you know, I could sell things. But what
S1: really bothered me, And this is again before I became
S1: a Christian, is I didn't like the way the pitch was.
S1: I felt like we were pulling the eyes, the wool
S1: over the eyes of people, so to speak. Yeah. And
S1: so even though I was successful at that job, I
S1: moved along. But to show you that God still has
S1: a plan for your life, I moved from selling magazines
S1: door to door to getting a job as a janitor,
S1: making $195 a month full time. But I've got to
S1: hurry because I know we're short on time. My life
S1: changed one day when this five foot, nine inch beauty
S1: walked down the hallway while I was holding a mop.
S1: And that same day, I met her in the men's restroom.
S1: Believe it or not, she was helping some little guy
S1: go potty. But she was the one that Jesus used,
S1: that God used in my life to turn my entire
S1: life around. Because she popped the question three months into dating.
S1: And she said, would you like to go to church
S1: with me? And my real honest thoughts were, oh no,
S1: she's one of them. If there's one thing I didn't
S1: want to be was a Christian. And then she asked
S1: me to go back at night. Why would you go
S1: back at night? I already went in the morning. Didn't
S1: I do it right? But that night, I'll tell you.
S1: I remember the beads of sweat on my forehead. Gary.
S1: I walked out that church, a new man. I accepted Christ.
S1: I didn't know who Jesus was, quite frankly, at that point.
S1: I didn't know where he was going to take me.
S1: But I said, okay, I'm going to trust you. He
S1: gave me instant motivation, went back to school full time,
S1: got on the Dean's list my first semester and never
S1: looked back.
S4: Wow. Wow. Well, it's powerful. You know, it's amazing how
S4: God knows how to get to us. So in the book,
S4: you have what you call Lehman isms. Let me quote
S4: one of them. Know yourself first before you stick your
S4: nose in other's business. That sounds like you, Kevin. Yeah.
S1: It does.
S4: Why do you need to start? Why do you need
S4: to start with self knowledge?
S1: Well, because I think most of us are too interested
S1: in self. And you have to look in that mirror
S1: I mentioned earlier. I think one of the blessings in
S1: life is to be happy, truly happy for other people's success.
S1: The carnal part of us says, oh, I wish I
S1: was like that person or that person. I would tell anybody,
S1: don't emulate other people. You want to emulate somebody, emulate Jesus. Okay.
S4: Yeah.
S1: Don't praise people. People aren't worthy of your praise. You
S1: want to praise somebody? Praise God in life.
S4: Mhm.
S1: Yeah. There's a lot of Lehman isms. Healthy relationships start
S1: with the three Rs, which is relationships relationships relationships. Yeah yeah.
S1: How about this. An unhappy person is a healthy person.
S1: Now that one gets people's attention.
S4: What do you mean? Yeah, yeah, I'm asking that.
S1: Sometimes your unhappiness is deserved. I say in the book,
S1: have a new kid by Friday. An unhappy child is
S1: a healthy child. Why? Because that little sucker deserves to
S1: be unhappy. Why? Because he dissed you. He disobeyed you.
S1: He lied. His hit his sister. I mean, I can
S1: go on and on and on. So our goal in
S1: life is not to create happy, happy, happy children, okay?
S1: Our goal as leaders isn't to create happy, happy, happy workers.
S1: Our goal is to create responsible workers who care about
S1: other people. But it starts with a look in the mirror.
S1: That's a good starting point.
S4: Yeah. Well, you talk about birth order in this book
S4: as well, which I would expect coming from you. But
S4: how does that knowledge of birth order help a leader
S4: understand coworkers as well as their family members?
S1: Well, I'm a youngest child in a family. I've had, uh,
S1: 17 book editors in my life. And editors come from
S1: the publishing company, as you know. And, uh, 16 of them, Gary,
S1: have been firstborn or only born children. The other one
S1: was a flat out liar. Uh, and, you know, here's
S1: the kicker. And this goes back to one of the
S1: Lehman isms, the strengths you have as a leader many
S1: times become your weakness. You can spot a flaw at
S1: 50 paces. We talk at our Lehman schools about vitamin E,
S1: which comes right out of Saint Paul's mouth. Encourage one another.
S1: We want to give a lot of vitamin E encouragement
S1: to those around us, but I pointed out that all
S1: my editors have been firstborn or only born children. My
S1: personal assistant, Debbie Backus, is a firstborn. She's been with
S1: me for 35 years, played piano in her church. A
S1: great lady, but as a baby of the family, I
S1: am not a detailed person. I have to admit that
S1: I fly by the seat of my pants a lot
S1: in life. I pray for guidance, but I do a
S1: lot of flying and sometimes I get in trouble. But
S1: if you know your weaknesses and my weakness is detail
S1: and organization. I mean, I'm the founder of eight charter schools.
S1: How do you function as the chairman of the board,
S1: for example, without being detailed? Well, you have some help.
S1: I have a personal assistant that does a lot of
S1: organization for me. And so building a team, when you
S1: think about your team, whether you're a small business owner
S1: or whatever, you don't want a bunch of people who
S1: all think the same or all have the same birth order.
S1: I just got hired to speak to the Western Orthopedic
S1: Surgeons Association meeting out in Hawaii this summer, and I've
S1: spoke to them before, and I can tell you what
S1: my opening line is right now to the orthopedic surgeons.
S1: Why would you hire me to speak to you guys?
S1: Because I can't tell you guys anything. No one can.
S1: And they laugh at themselves. They know who they are.
S1: But you, you want your anesthesiologist. You want your orthopedic
S1: surgeon to be a perfectionist. But I point out in
S1: this book, the perfectionism is slow suicide. The perfect one
S1: is Jesus. So stop chasing the perfect thing and pursue
S1: excellence in your life. You said something really profound at
S1: the beginning of this interview. You said the leader solicits
S1: the advice of other people. Yeah, and if you're going
S1: to be a good leader today, there's a must.
S2: This is the podcast Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman,
S2: author of the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages.
S2: We're talking with Doctor Kevin Lehman today about his book,
S2: Be a Great Leader by Friday. Five Winning plays to
S2: spark your world changing potential. Go to building relationships us
S2: to find out more. Plus, find more ways to strengthen
S2: your relationships right there. Go to Building Relationships us.
S4: Well, Kevin, the name of the book is Be a
S4: Great Leader by Friday. Do you believe that's really possible?
S1: Well, it could be Wednesday if you're decisive enough. I think,
S1: you know, one of the things about being a leader
S1: is you have to be visible. You know, I don't
S1: I don't want to get political. But the last election
S1: was a very interesting one. And the leader of the
S1: ticket didn't do a very good job of being what? Visible.
S1: You have to be visible to be a good leader.
S1: You have to have confidence to be a good leader.
S1: And people follow leaders who are decisive and are specific
S1: and obviously have thought out plans and strategies that work.
S1: So I think any leader would tell you, I speak
S1: to the Young Presidents organization. I've been their resource for
S1: many years in many situations. I've been to one of
S1: their universities down in Mexico City, where you're met with
S1: a police escort, Gary, at the airport, and they take
S1: you to the hotel, probably because they don't want you shot.
S1: I don't know why they do that, but, you know,
S1: at Ypo, these guys, they call them young because to
S1: be in Ypo Young Presidents organization, you have to be
S1: under 50 years of age to be in it. Once
S1: you become a 40 niner, you sort of sort of
S1: graduate into another group. But all these guys, for the
S1: most part, are multi-millionaires. They're movers and shakers. They warned
S1: me when I first spoke to Ypo. They said, listen,
S1: these guys are so driven to get every bit of
S1: information from every speaker. Don't be offended if people leave
S1: your session when you're speaking. Well, me is the baby
S1: of the family. I took that as a challenge and
S1: I said to myself, I'm going to just see if
S1: anybody leaves my session. And you get like two, 300
S1: people probably in each session, maybe more. And I can
S1: tell you, no one left. No one left. And the
S1: most common, uh, feedback I got from people was I
S1: loved your down to earth, honest, real life examples. I
S1: love the way you talked. I could listen to you forever. Well,
S1: I think again, as a leader, you have to adjust
S1: the people's levels depending upon who you're talking to, and
S1: you have to identify with them. And that's why you
S1: hang out with them, you know? In the old days,
S1: the shepherd was he was literally the gate. The sheep
S1: might be in a pen, but he actually laid down
S1: so that he knew if a sheep was, you know,
S1: trying to get out at night. He was the protector
S1: and the good shepherd. We see that in the Bible.
S1: You know, he went way out of his way to
S1: help that one. I mean, that real shepherd. Again, back
S1: to the word authentic. He's got to be real. He's
S1: got to love his people. But the good shepherd, he
S1: also had this thing called a rod with him. And
S1: the rod, by the way, wasn't used to beat the
S1: sheep over the head. Okay. I would take issue with
S1: anybody on that. But there's times when Gary Chapman, the shepherd,
S1: would say, okay, sheep, come on, let's move along. And, Gary,
S1: you might have one little sheep who looks at you defiantly,
S1: sort of like a four year old would do a
S1: mom or dad. And, you know, sort of dig their
S1: hoofs in and say, no, I'm not moving. Well, the
S1: good shepherd, Gary Chapman, would go over with his rod.
S1: And what would he do? He'd give him a little
S1: poke in the tail, move him along. He would use
S1: the rod to guide the sheep. And so when we
S1: think about leadership, we're not talking about biting people's heads
S1: off or humiliating them, calling them, calling them out in
S1: front of other people, we're going to use our heads.
S1: And so the rod of correction, you know, that's the
S1: time when you take that employee behind the closed doors.
S1: You speak the truth in love and you essentially say,
S1: you know, I want you to know I believe in you.
S1: I think you can do this, but I think we
S1: need to do some things different here. If you need
S1: some help, I need to know what specifically you need
S1: help with. And we'll get some people to help you,
S1: because I want to see you succeed in this job
S1: at this organization. That guy cannot walk away thinking, or
S1: that woman can't walk away thinking, boy, they don't care
S1: about me because they do. They're just trying to help.
S4: Yeah. That's great. You say in the book that there's
S4: two people that you would never put in the same
S4: room together without supervision. Who are those two people?
S1: Well, the two most likely candidates would be the two
S1: first born children. Or the two only children, because you
S1: got two people who know exactly how life ought to be.
S1: I mean, I can tell you that I've lived with
S1: this woman that I've been married to for 57 years
S1: in a row. I want to emphasize in a row, uh,
S1: we're driving last night, and, uh, all I did was
S1: turn left. Now, Gary, that's a very simple thing. Just
S1: turn left. Do you think she could let that one go? Oh, no. No. Oh, honey,
S1: you know what? Um, she's got a better idea. She's
S1: the firstborn. Okay. You put two firstborns, she says all
S1: you got to do is go down here and hit
S1: this street, and you buy on the interstate in a second. Well,
S1: that's how firstborns are. They can spot a flaw at
S1: 50 paces. They tend to know everything. Okay. They've been
S1: the centerpiece of their family since day one. So, yeah.
S1: Two firstborns. Uh, or how about two babies? They've been
S1: in that same room for an hour, and one of
S1: them says, hey, I forgot what was the assignment they
S1: gave us to do?
S4: Yeah.
S1: Because they were talking about everything. But. So, yeah, it
S1: gets back to, hey, if you're a leader, make sure
S1: your team has a good reputation. And I'm not here
S1: to tell you that birth order is the next best
S1: thing to to slice bread. But I'm telling you that.
S1: Isn't it amazing that if you look at any family,
S1: the 3 or 4 little cubs that come out of
S1: that family. Guess what? They're all different. And that speaks
S1: to the genius of God who made all of us different.
S1: I always point out to people who are interested in
S1: birth order identical twins. When I found this out, Gary,
S1: I cried and laughed at the same time. Identical twins
S1: who have the same DNA have different fingerprints. Why did
S1: God do that? To help the FBI. Or was this
S1: God's way of saying, you are my son? You are
S1: my daughter. You are different than everyone else. So I
S1: would just say to any leader, get behind the eyes
S1: of these people you work with. Figure out what strengths
S1: each person has and make sure you have diversity in
S1: the strengths in the teams that you build on that
S1: corporation or business called the bus.
S4: Yeah, I think our leaders who, who, who are in
S4: positions and thinking about leadership or really taking notes on this?
S4: I hope so, and then I hope you're going to
S4: get the book, because this book, these practical things we're
S4: talking about are spelled out in the book. And you
S4: mentioned that there's two vitamins that leaders need. One, you've
S4: already mentioned E, vitamin E encourage, but then you said
S4: vitamin N, what is that for?
S1: Well, vitamin N and again what I love about this,
S1: you could look at parenthood. Yeah we all need vitamin E,
S1: but kids need vitamin N, and so do workers. So
S1: do managers. Uh, as a leader, you have to be
S1: the decision maker. I mean, there's other vitamins from accountability
S1: to I like vitamin L, which is laughter. And, you know,
S1: I mean, there's all kinds of vitamins that go into
S1: building a business, but vitamin E, I love the encouragement,
S1: but I love vitamin N, because you'll see there's three
S1: basic types of leaders in life, Gary. There's the authoritarians
S1: who see themselves as the boss, who just tell people
S1: what to do. Then there's the permissive who are driven
S1: on the premise that everybody has to like me. Well,
S1: good luck with that. And then there's the authoritative leader,
S1: and that's what I would like to see in action
S1: across our country today is leaders who are authoritative. Those
S1: are leaders who's who's no is no and who's yes
S1: is yes. There are people who aren't afraid to make decisions.
S1: They're not overly impressed with trying to make everybody happy
S1: with the decisions that they're coming up with. But in
S1: the process, they're soliciting the input of people that work
S1: with that leader. That's what's really important. In fact, that
S1: was one of the things I think you mentioned at
S1: the beginning of this interview that the smart leader solicits opinions,
S1: welcomes feedback from those around him. You got to be
S1: pretty secure. You want people around you not who are
S1: just a bunch of yes people. You want people who
S1: are going to sometimes challenge what you're thinking about. It
S1: helps refine the the metal, so to speak, by putting
S1: the thing to the fire. So there's a lot to
S1: being a leader. But, you know, people have said to
S1: me over the years enough that I feel free and
S1: sharing this without trying to sound pompous, but people say
S1: I never get lost with big words in your books.
S1: You keep things simple down to earth. And I think
S1: successful people and people that I've really admired in life,
S1: people that I've rubbed shoulders with over the years. I
S1: think what attracts me to some of them, most of them,
S1: I should say, is they're down to earth Nature. I've
S1: done all those secular shows on TV, you know. Really?
S1: I've done. There's hardly one of them I ever missed.
S1: But I think of Regis Philbin, who has now left
S1: this earth. He was the most down to earth guy
S1: I'd ever met. And interestingly enough, the governor of Oklahoma,
S1: Frank Keating, invited me and a fellow by the name
S1: of Bill Cosby. And I spent the day with Cosby,
S1: and he was so down to earth and nice to people.
S1: And when the tragic news came out about his his life,
S1: I was devastated. I thought, how could that be? He
S1: took time to talk to people that, quite frankly, he
S1: didn't have to talk to. I'd met a lot of
S1: I won't name names on people. Big time celebrities. You'd
S1: know every one of them I'd name. But I didn't
S1: even like being around, to tell you the truth. I
S1: just sort of avoided them. So I think if you
S1: come in, don't be impressed with yourself, okay? I don't
S1: if if God's giving you success in life, then thank
S1: God for your success. Okay. It's real simple. Yeah. Don't
S1: think you did it. Because, God, if you're a believer
S1: and you said, God, take charge of my life. Trust
S1: him in all things. Then give God the glory. Don't.
S1: Don't sit there and try to make yourself into something
S1: that you're not. I've always used self-depreciating humor, which sort
S1: of helps me travel that gauntlet in life. I've done that,
S1: I think, fairly well for a baby of the family anyway.
S4: I would agree with that. Yeah. Kevin, as you know,
S4: I have worked on a church staff all these years
S4: and all my counseling and everything has been done in
S4: that context. Uh, what mistakes from your perspective do leaders
S4: in the church often make?
S1: Well, let's start with, uh, the pastor. Okay. I'm so
S1: glad you asked that question, because just this week, I had, uh,
S1: breakfast with my pastor. I go to a large a
S1: non-denominational church here in Tucson, and our pastor is a
S1: terrific speaker. And, uh, I reminded him in our conversation
S1: because he had just taken off with his wife, they
S1: had some R&R for a week before the Christmas season.
S1: This goes back several months now, but, um, I just
S1: applauded his efforts that to get away once in a
S1: while with your wife and to prioritize. And I always
S1: get people's attention with this. But hey, pastors, don't put
S1: the church first, okay? Put your wife first. Your kids
S1: need to be like, Avis, rent a car. Number two
S1: and trying harder in some place. Some people are saying, well,
S1: wait a minute, hold on a Where's God in all this? Well,
S1: God's in everything that's a given. But in terms of people,
S1: you know. Oh, honey, I'd love to help you, but
S1: you know that there's a board meeting down there, and
S1: you know how Harry gets some nights I better go
S1: down there and make sure that things run smoothly. I
S1: think pastors run the risk of feeling like they're indispensable.
S1: And they have to be. They have to have hands
S1: in everything in the church, which they don't. I think pastors,
S1: many of them, make the mistake of making their wife
S1: feel like she has to be thoroughly involved in the church.
S1: I'll get people's attention with this one. I don't think
S1: a pastor's wife has to be involved in anything in
S1: the church. Anything if she doesn't choose to.
S4: Yeah.
S1: Other than the worship and be a good helpmate to
S1: her husband. I know that's blasphemy in some circles, but
S1: I've seen it. I've seen so many pastors fall. You can't,
S1: you know, read a newspaper. That's how old I am.
S1: I still read newspapers. Or go on your computer and
S1: get Yahoo news and and you know, you can't go
S1: a month without finding where some Christian leader has failed. Hey,
S1: we're all we're full of failure. Yeah, we're redeemed through
S1: the blood of Jesus. And, you know, I'm just saying,
S1: if you're real, uh. Then prioritize. Be the model to
S1: your people in life. And I'm not talking about being perfect.
S1: I think one of the great things I love about
S1: my pastor is he's vulnerable. He shares in the pulpit
S1: sometimes things he struggles with. That's a source of encouragement
S1: to me, not discouragement. Yeah. So I would say to everybody, uh,
S1: this is February. We got Valentine's Day in this month. Uh,
S1: some people call it the Love month. What was the
S1: last time you took the time to write a note
S1: to your pastor or to your kid's Sunday school teacher
S1: and say, hey, I appreciate if you still have a
S1: choir in your church or a praise band or whatever,
S1: taking the time to thank people for the hours that
S1: they put into preparing for that Sunday morning worship. Yeah,
S1: I mean, stop stop thinking about yourself, right? That powerful, uh,
S1: note packed with vitamin E, which is encouragement, just thanking
S1: people for the contribution that they give back to this
S1: body of believers called the church. Yeah, stuff like that.
S4: So important, so important. You mentioned the whole issue that
S4: none of us are perfect, that we all make mistakes,
S4: and leaders are people and they make mistakes. How important
S4: is it that we learn from our mistakes?
S1: Well, it's a if you want to really be a
S1: lifelong leader, which I hope everybody wants to be as
S1: a leader. It starts with realizing that. Well, I'll go
S1: to a scripture. Uh, King Solomon. I think the very
S1: last verse is in Proverbs three, and he will direct
S1: your paths. I wrote a book on that called The
S1: Way of the wise, by the way. I lehmanni you'll
S1: love this one, pastor Gary Chapman I demonized the scripture,
S1: which I'll probably pay for it someday, but. But I
S1: love that little scripture. And he he gives six little
S1: verses there. And I took ten major themes from those
S1: six verses. But I love the fact it says, and
S1: he will direct your paths. And I want to remind
S1: people in life, God doesn't give you just one path. Gary,
S1: when you started out ministry, did you think you were
S1: going to be a New York Times best selling author?
S4: Never crossed my mind.
S1: Never crossed my mind either. I said that, Gary, he's
S1: never going to do anything in life. No, I said
S1: I said that about myself. But, you know, so my
S1: wife Sandy, always says we make plans and God laughs.
S1: So as you, as you go through life, realize that
S1: you have different paths in life and you learn as
S1: you go. And there's times you look back and you say,
S1: you know, last week at that meeting, I sort of
S1: ran over Fred's feelings, you know, to a leader, I
S1: would say, get on the honker, get on the phone,
S1: call Fred and Fred. Fred have been talking, thinking about
S1: you this week, and I've been thinking about what I
S1: said to you at that meeting. And I have to
S1: tell you that I. I'm really ashamed of myself. Would
S1: probably be the best word. I think I mistakenly just
S1: ran over your feelings, and I'm just profusely sorry that
S1: I did that. Now I'm just telling you that that
S1: will solidify the relationship with that guy forever. In fact,
S1: research says this when you buy a product or obtain
S1: a service and you rant and you rave and you
S1: write a nasty note or whatever, and that person comes
S1: back and apologizes to you for the poor service, puts
S1: it in writing, says hey, comes back and gives. You'll
S1: take 22 different actions in one week to tell people
S1: about this wonderful business that you were going to file
S1: a complaint with the Better Business Bureau about. Why? Because
S1: they apologize. They made things right. So as a leader,
S1: be the first to say, I'm sorry I was wrong.
S1: Would you forgive me? Those are people that will attract attention.
S1: Those are people who will be leaders that people will
S1: want to follow. Yeah. In fact, let me give you
S1: a quick a quick little out of raising kids. They
S1: always say, don't try this at home. I'm saying to
S1: every young parent listening, you got a kid between 3
S1: and 4. Try this at home. Say to a 3
S1: or 4 year old with your arms outstretched. Come here.
S1: Nine out of ten times the kid will go south.
S1: If you want the kid to come toward you, extend
S1: your arms toward the kid. Say the same words. Come here,
S1: but walk backwards slowly. And that little guy will come
S1: to you. It's a word picture, but it works. And
S1: that's how you have to be with people. You don't
S1: carry a big stick.
S4: Yeah. Well, Kevin, this hour has gone quickly. And I
S4: want to thank you again for being with us today.
S4: And thank you for writing this book. I think this
S4: is going to help a lot of folks because many,
S4: many people are in leadership roles. In fact, as we
S4: said earlier, all of us are leading somebody. So thanks
S4: for being with us today, and may God continue to
S4: give you wisdom in all that you're doing and all
S4: that he still has planned for you and your life.
S1: Thank you. Gary. You know I love you. Take care
S1: of yourself. I'm happy you got this program. It's very relevant.
S1: And it's all about relationships. And, Ben, we need help
S1: in that one.
S4: Yeah. You're right.
S3: Doctor Kevin Lehman has been our guest. You can see
S3: our featured resource at Building Relationships. Us the book Be
S3: a Great Leader by Friday. Five winning plays to spark
S3: your world changing potential. Just go to building Relationships us.
S4: And next week we'll talk about how to love and
S4: like your spouse for a lifetime.
S2: Arlene Pellekaan joins us in one week. Before we go,
S2: let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice.
S2: Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production
S2: of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry
S2: of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.