WEBVTT - Hour 2: Healing From Life’s Deepest Hurts 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.920 and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.520 and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.440 But before you go, I want to tell you about 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.720 And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.600 going out into the night sky and looking up and 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.439 seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.560 about God? And are you not in a moment of 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.960 awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.600 of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.800 that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.240 wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.480 of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.879 from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.160 a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.599 this sense of awe through the work that they do. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.120 In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.440 it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.150 because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you 0:01:00.150 --> 0:01:03.550 to walk through the chapters written by people who all 0:01:03.550 --> 0:01:06.270 have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes 0:01:06.270 --> 0:01:09.110 to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an 0:01:09.110 --> 0:01:11.430 amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, 0:01:11.430 --> 0:01:16.270 just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask 0:01:16.270 --> 0:01:19.150 for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll 0:01:19.150 --> 0:01:20.390 send it right off to you as my way of 0:01:20.390 --> 0:01:22.950 saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or 0:01:22.950 --> 0:01:25.350 you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. 0:01:26.550 --> 0:01:29.389 When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. 0:01:29.390 --> 0:01:31.630 Those are people who give every single month at a 0:01:31.630 --> 0:01:34.110 level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, 0:01:34.150 --> 0:01:36.270 but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter 0:01:36.270 --> 0:01:39.069 that includes my writing and an audio piece just for 0:01:39.069 --> 0:01:43.190 my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website 0:01:43.190 --> 0:01:46.830 in the market with Janet parshall.org consider becoming a partial 0:01:46.830 --> 0:01:49.790 partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you 0:01:49.790 --> 0:01:53.070 ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. 0:01:54.710 --> 0:01:56.230 Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 0:01:56.510 --> 0:01:58.850 The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 0:01:58.970 --> 0:02:01.010 Americans worshiping government over God. 0:02:01.330 --> 0:02:04.730 Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 0:02:04.730 --> 0:02:06.770 The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 0:02:08.090 --> 0:02:22.930 Is not an option. Hi friends. 0:02:22.930 --> 0:02:25.250 Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you 0:02:25.250 --> 0:02:27.690 so much for deciding to spend the hour with me. 0:02:27.690 --> 0:02:30.250 It is my fervent hope and prayer this hour that 0:02:30.250 --> 0:02:32.450 you're going to hear something that's going to encourage you. 0:02:32.490 --> 0:02:34.690 You know what my mom used to say growing up? Oh, honey, 0:02:34.690 --> 0:02:38.410 everybody has a story and everybody's got pain. Yeah, but 0:02:38.410 --> 0:02:40.530 you don't always wear it on the outside, right? First, 0:02:40.530 --> 0:02:43.330 Samuel tells me that man looks on the outward appearance, 0:02:43.330 --> 0:02:45.049 but God looks on the heart. So you and I 0:02:45.090 --> 0:02:48.089 can't necessarily tell by looking at somebody that they have 0:02:48.090 --> 0:02:52.010 a broken, bruised or wounded heart, that they're carrying pain 0:02:52.010 --> 0:02:56.530 for decades in their backpack for life. And yet, how 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:58.680 are we supposed to comfort them if we don't know? 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.480 How are they themselves supposed to find healing and joy 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.360 and restoration and hope? And yet we live East of Eden. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.600 These are the hallmarks of what it's like walking out 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:11.480 of the garden. Sin sick, fallen world, and pain and 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.760 trauma and hurt are all a part of this world. 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.320 So I am so thankful that there are people who 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.600 want a heart like Jesus's, and he had compassion on them. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:22.480 How many times in the New Testament does it say 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:24.359 that I get a lump in my throat every time 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.280 I read it? If I want a heart like his? 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.120 It means one of the hallmarks has to be a 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.680 heart filled with compassion, understanding that they are hurting people 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.680 out there and wanting to know that people who hurt 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.280 can be healed. But it takes commitment. It takes grace, 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:40.960 it takes mercy, it takes time. And I'm so very 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.240 grateful that God raises up people who teach us how 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.119 to do just that. And Kimberly here is just one 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.520 such person. She is a survivor of domestic violence. She's 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.720 a licensed professional counselor. She's a licensed marriage and family 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.630 therapist with nearly two decades of experience helping others find 0:03:56.630 --> 0:03:59.390 healing and wholeness in their life. She has an Ma 0:03:59.390 --> 0:04:02.470 in Marriage and Family Therapy from Southern Nazarene University. She's 0:04:02.470 --> 0:04:05.750 a featured co-host on Oasis Radio Network, and her therapy 0:04:05.750 --> 0:04:09.390 practice is located in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where she continues to 0:04:09.390 --> 0:04:13.190 inspire hope and strengthen those and strength in those facing 0:04:13.190 --> 0:04:16.270 life's challenges. So she joins us today because Kimberly has 0:04:16.270 --> 0:04:18.550 a brand new book out. It's called healing from Life's 0:04:18.550 --> 0:04:23.270 Deepest Hurts Reclaiming Your Life After Grief, loss, and Trauma. Now, 0:04:23.270 --> 0:04:24.670 do you understand why I said, I hope this is 0:04:24.670 --> 0:04:26.990 going to be an hour of encouragement? Because out of 0:04:26.990 --> 0:04:29.550 that whole title, you know what the most important word is? 0:04:29.550 --> 0:04:33.150 Reclaiming residing within the parameters of that word is the 0:04:33.150 --> 0:04:37.110 hope and the belief that you can find joy and 0:04:37.110 --> 0:04:40.070 peace again. And if you don't hear anything else that our. 0:04:40.070 --> 0:04:42.670 I hope you hang on to that because it can 0:04:42.670 --> 0:04:44.390 take place in your life. How do I know? Because 0:04:44.390 --> 0:04:47.229 we have a great and glorious God. Kimberly, thank you 0:04:47.230 --> 0:04:49.510 so much for joining me. There's a sneak peek in 0:04:49.510 --> 0:04:51.950 your bio, and I know that probably a lot of 0:04:51.950 --> 0:04:54.050 people want to start by asking you this question, but 0:04:54.050 --> 0:04:55.690 I want to ask you this question for a couple 0:04:55.730 --> 0:04:58.809 of reasons. Number one, because I believe that the most 0:04:58.810 --> 0:05:01.090 powerful teachers we have are the ones who have both 0:05:01.130 --> 0:05:03.570 ethos and pathos. Ethos is you got the book learning. 0:05:03.570 --> 0:05:05.610 It's right there between your ears. You got all the smarts, 0:05:05.610 --> 0:05:07.849 you got a bunch of initials after your name. But 0:05:07.850 --> 0:05:10.330 the pathos means, yeah, I got the book learning, but 0:05:10.330 --> 0:05:12.250 I also got the bruises and I can tell you 0:05:12.250 --> 0:05:16.210 exactly what you're feeling because I've been there before. And 0:05:16.210 --> 0:05:18.010 if God can heal me, I want you to know 0:05:18.010 --> 0:05:20.529 he can heal you as well. So part of your 0:05:20.529 --> 0:05:23.010 bio right out of the gate is a survivor of 0:05:23.010 --> 0:05:25.850 domestic violence. Tell me about your story. 0:05:26.770 --> 0:05:32.570 Yes, well, I actually had been married for 23 years, 0:05:32.890 --> 0:05:37.130 and during that time there really had not been domestic 0:05:37.130 --> 0:05:41.130 violence in my home. And I made the decision after 0:05:41.130 --> 0:05:44.650 23 years. It was the hardest decision of my life. 0:05:44.930 --> 0:05:48.810 But I made the decision to divorce my first husband, 0:05:49.170 --> 0:05:52.130 and the reason I did that is there had been 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:56.760 patterns of infidelity our entire marriage. Um, I had forgiven 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.320 and forgiven and forgiven and believed and asked the Lord 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:03.880 to restore. But in 2013, I discovered that my first 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.719 husband had been in an affair. And at that point, 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.000 I knew that I could no longer stay in my marriage. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.440 And so I made the decision to file for divorce. 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.960 But I also made the decision to stay single for 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:22.359 four years because our youngest children were still in high school. 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.279 And so I told my ex-husband, I said, you know, 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.440 you get your life together four years from now. If 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.560 you've got your life right, figure things out. Maybe there 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.880 would be a day we could reconcile. But between now 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.599 and then, I'm going to be just mom. And four 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:43.360 years came and went. And I knew that it was 2017. 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.520 I woke up and something inside me said, this is 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.000 the year you're going to be married again. And I 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:53.830 knew my ex-husband had not made the changes that I needed, 0:06:53.830 --> 0:06:58.510 and so I began to date. I began to make 0:06:58.510 --> 0:07:01.309 myself available, um, you know, just to kind of start 0:07:01.310 --> 0:07:03.990 a new life for myself. And I met a man 0:07:03.990 --> 0:07:07.430 on April 1st, which was April Fool's Day, and I 0:07:07.470 --> 0:07:10.590 knew almost immediately, this is the man I was going 0:07:10.630 --> 0:07:14.310 to marry. Now, we saw each other almost every day 0:07:14.310 --> 0:07:17.670 for a month, but it had been a great month. 0:07:17.670 --> 0:07:20.670 During that time, he had asked me and told me 0:07:20.670 --> 0:07:23.950 he knew he wanted to marry me. In fact, he 0:07:23.950 --> 0:07:26.030 was an engineer and it was kind of funny. He 0:07:26.030 --> 0:07:28.270 told me that he had asked Google how long you 0:07:28.270 --> 0:07:30.830 need to know somebody before you know you're in love. 0:07:32.030 --> 0:07:35.830 And I thought, okay, that is definitely the engineer brain 0:07:35.830 --> 0:07:39.150 that wants to statistics and data. And and I was 0:07:39.150 --> 0:07:41.470 very upset when I learned, I think Google told him 0:07:41.470 --> 0:07:44.910 six months and I was like, well, ask Siri. Um, 0:07:45.350 --> 0:07:49.030 so so he told me, though, he said, you know, 0:07:49.030 --> 0:07:52.810 I want to marry you. And I know it wasn't 0:07:52.810 --> 0:07:55.050 a question, so I wasn't going to embarrass myself. I 0:07:55.050 --> 0:07:57.730 wasn't going to say yes. Um, but we both knew 0:07:57.770 --> 0:08:01.170 that that's where we were headed. In the meantime, it 0:08:01.170 --> 0:08:04.210 had been a full month of dating, and my ex-husband 0:08:04.210 --> 0:08:06.410 called me and he asked me to come and talk 0:08:06.410 --> 0:08:09.530 to him about our children. That was not in common. 0:08:09.530 --> 0:08:12.410 We had talked many times before, and when I went 0:08:12.410 --> 0:08:15.850 to see him, he made a comment. He started talking 0:08:15.850 --> 0:08:18.530 about wanting to get back together with me, and I 0:08:18.530 --> 0:08:21.890 said he needed to move on because I had moved 0:08:21.890 --> 0:08:25.410 on and he said, Maybe I'm going to have to 0:08:25.450 --> 0:08:29.730 go talk to this man. And I didn't know necessarily 0:08:29.730 --> 0:08:32.410 what that meant because I didn't know he knew who 0:08:32.410 --> 0:08:35.170 this person was. I didn't think, you know, he knew 0:08:35.170 --> 0:08:38.610 where he lived. But unbeknownst to me, my ex-husband had 0:08:38.610 --> 0:08:42.770 been stalking me. And so when I left his home, 0:08:42.770 --> 0:08:45.809 I called this man. His name was Andrew. I called Andrew, 0:08:45.809 --> 0:08:48.080 and I said, can I come by your house and 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.000 talk to you just for a minute. It was like 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:54.120 9:00 at night and I, you know, talked to him 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.200 about the conversation my ex-husband and I had had. I 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.600 said he said he might have to come talk to you. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.000 And I said, I am so sorry, but I hope 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:07.160 he's not going to embarrass me. And little did I know, 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.960 within 24 hours Andrew was going to be not just 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.320 fighting for me, but he was going to actually be 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:14.560 fighting for his life. 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.480 Oh my word, what a place to take a break. Kimberly. 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:20.240 The book we're talking about is going to be called 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:21.920 it is called. We're going to be talking about the 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.440 book in a bit. It's healing from life's deepest hurts, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.040 reclaiming your life after grief, loss or trauma. And I 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.160 want you to hear Kimberly's story because, again, if God 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.680 can work in for and through Kimberly, he can do 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:36.960 it in your life as well. So there's obviously much 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:39.679 more to this story, and we'll continue right after the break. 0:09:53.670 --> 0:09:55.870 God uses so much in the world around us to 0:09:55.910 --> 0:09:58.429 point to him. Our sense of wonder is really about 0:09:58.429 --> 0:10:01.350 knowing him. That's why I've chosen. Have you ever wondered, 0:10:01.350 --> 0:10:03.430 as this month's Truth tool? This book is for all 0:10:03.470 --> 0:10:05.590 who have looked up at a million stars in the 0:10:05.590 --> 0:10:08.630 night sky and just wondered, ask for your copy of. 0:10:08.670 --> 0:10:10.310 Have you ever wondered when you give a gift of 0:10:10.309 --> 0:10:13.630 any amount to in the market, call 877 Janet 58. 0:10:13.670 --> 0:10:17.030 That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market 0:10:17.030 --> 0:10:22.470 with Janet Parshall. We are visiting with Kimberly Hauer, who's 0:10:22.510 --> 0:10:26.150 a licensed therapist specializing in trauma recovery, and she's written 0:10:26.150 --> 0:10:29.910 the book healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaim Your Life 0:10:29.910 --> 0:10:33.030 After Grief, loss, or Trauma. And I want to pick 0:10:33.030 --> 0:10:36.550 up your story exactly where you left off. 23 years. 0:10:36.590 --> 0:10:41.189 Married to a man. Pattern of infidelity 2013. It's a reality. 0:10:41.230 --> 0:10:44.030 You decide to divorce him. You say, I'm going to 0:10:44.030 --> 0:10:46.410 just be a mom for four years. You do that, 0:10:46.410 --> 0:10:50.489 you meet a man named Andrew and that four year period. Kimberly. 0:10:50.530 --> 0:10:53.330 Were you aware at all? And you said this in 0:10:53.330 --> 0:10:56.530 our last segment together that he had been stalking you? 0:10:56.570 --> 0:10:59.130 You'd stayed in contact because you said you talked about 0:10:59.170 --> 0:11:02.170 having conversations about the kids, but did you know it 0:11:02.170 --> 0:11:04.890 was going beyond the conversations with the kids that he 0:11:04.890 --> 0:11:07.610 was actually aware of? The fact that you were dating 0:11:07.610 --> 0:11:08.890 this man named Andrew? 0:11:10.330 --> 0:11:13.330 Well, I assume now that my children must have said, hey, 0:11:13.330 --> 0:11:16.410 mom is dating somebody because my children saw their dad. 0:11:16.730 --> 0:11:19.930 But during that four years, it was a friendly divorce. 0:11:20.290 --> 0:11:23.610 It was, you know, there there was no, you know, 0:11:23.650 --> 0:11:27.530 fighting between us. There was no I had absolutely no 0:11:27.530 --> 0:11:29.450 idea he was stalking me. 0:11:30.490 --> 0:11:35.970 Wow. Unbelievable. So you have Andrew. The the ex says 0:11:35.970 --> 0:11:39.609 I want to connect with you and you're not interested. 0:11:39.610 --> 0:11:41.850 You say you've moved on. You suggest that he should 0:11:41.850 --> 0:11:45.000 move on. Moving on doesn't happen. What does happen? 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.920 That's right. Well, he told me he was going to 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.520 go to have a talk with Andrew, and I warned 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.360 Andrew because I didn't want him to scare Andrew away. Um, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:57.280 and so I just said, would you fight for me? 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.440 And Andrew said, yes, I would fight for you. And 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.720 when I asked him why, he said, because you're worth it. 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.440 And so when I left Andrew's home, it was probably 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.560 930 at night. I hadn't been there very long, but 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.040 I went home, got in bed. I was living by 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.280 myself and something prompted me on the inside and it said, 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.719 lock your bedroom door. I had no reason to. I 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.320 was not scared. I, you know, obviously I locked my 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:23.480 house door, but it was not my practice to lock 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.240 my bedroom door. But I got up, I locked the 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.280 bedroom door, got back in bed, and I fell asleep. 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.520 And at 230 in the morning, I woke up to 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.480 the sound of my bedroom door crashing down off the hinges. 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.360 My ex-husband had broken into my home. He was intoxicated. 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.310 He had a gun in his hand. And for the 0:12:43.309 --> 0:12:48.069 next four hours I, I went through four hours of assault. 0:12:48.750 --> 0:12:53.829 And when those four hours were done, he told me 0:12:53.830 --> 0:12:56.710 that as punishment for ruining his life, he was going 0:12:56.710 --> 0:12:58.910 to kidnap me and he was going to make me 0:12:59.110 --> 0:13:01.510 go with him to Andrew's house, and I was going 0:13:01.510 --> 0:13:07.030 to have to watch him murder Andrew. Mhm. And so I, 0:13:07.070 --> 0:13:09.550 you know, and I have to say that my, my 0:13:09.590 --> 0:13:12.950 therapeutic background actually really helped me stay calm through a 0:13:12.950 --> 0:13:17.310 lot of this because, because some things said, okay, you know, 0:13:17.350 --> 0:13:20.270 pay attention to what he's saying. And actually the very 0:13:20.270 --> 0:13:22.030 first thing he said to me when he broke into 0:13:22.070 --> 0:13:24.390 my bedroom was he told me he had come from 0:13:24.390 --> 0:13:28.150 killing my mother and father. Now, he had not, but 0:13:28.150 --> 0:13:31.710 I didn't know that. And so right away, my brain 0:13:31.710 --> 0:13:35.190 was just giving me orders. And I told myself, you 0:13:35.190 --> 0:13:38.270 can grieve that later. For right now, just pay attention 0:13:38.270 --> 0:13:40.890 to his words. And then I prayed, God, keep me 0:13:40.890 --> 0:13:43.370 alive for my children because they're going to need me. 0:13:43.850 --> 0:13:47.209 So he he kidnapped me and I went with him 0:13:47.210 --> 0:13:51.170 at gunpoint to Andrew's house. When we got there, I 0:13:51.330 --> 0:13:53.690 watched as he reached into the back seat, got a 0:13:53.690 --> 0:13:56.449 gun loaded up with some bullets, and he looked over 0:13:56.450 --> 0:13:58.490 at me and he said, now you can go do 0:13:58.530 --> 0:14:01.370 whatever you need to do. And he left the keys 0:14:01.370 --> 0:14:04.610 in the ignition of the vehicle. And so I watched 0:14:04.610 --> 0:14:08.449 as he mounted the three steps going up to Andrew's house. Um, 0:14:08.450 --> 0:14:11.570 there was a lead glass door, a big oval, you know, 0:14:11.610 --> 0:14:13.850 lead glass window in the front of the door. And 0:14:13.850 --> 0:14:17.210 I heard three gunshots. And I knew there was no 0:14:17.210 --> 0:14:20.850 way Andrew was going to survive this. So I jumped 0:14:20.850 --> 0:14:23.530 into the the past or not the passenger, the driver's 0:14:23.530 --> 0:14:26.870 side of the vehicle. And I escaped to a 24 0:14:26.870 --> 0:14:32.650 hour supercenter. Ran in, screamed call 911. And I was 0:14:32.650 --> 0:14:35.850 taken to a warehouse to wait for a police officer 0:14:35.850 --> 0:14:39.320 in an ambulance to come and get me. And when 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.640 the police officer came, he said, okay, follow me. And 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:44.520 I told him, I said, I need to go to 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:46.800 that vehicle that I came in and I need to 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.960 get my cell phone because I wanted to call my family. 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:51.840 I wanted to let them know what had happened so 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.560 they didn't see it on the news. And when I 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.960 went to the passenger door of the vehicle and I 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:01.200 opened the door, my ex-husband was sitting behind the steering wheel. 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.000 He had walked the the 4 to 6 blocks and 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.640 and he had a gun pointed at me. And so 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.000 within just moments I had, you know, a human shield 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.760 of police around me. And my ex-husband was apprehended. I 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.240 was taken to an emergency room where, you know, for 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.120 the next 4 to 6 hours, I was, you know, 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.840 went through exam after exam, question after question. But during 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.800 that time, I did learn that Andrew had been shot 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:30.240 ten times. And I learned that because his adult son 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.400 I had met, he had three children and I had 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:34.760 met one of his children. His adult son called my 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.510 phone who my adult daughter answered and he said, hey, 0:15:38.670 --> 0:15:41.190 we wish your mom the best. Our dad is touch 0:15:41.190 --> 0:15:43.710 and go in and out of surgeries, but we really 0:15:43.710 --> 0:15:46.790 think they need to go their opposite ways. And so 0:15:46.830 --> 0:15:49.830 I couldn't find Andrew. He was under an assumed name 0:15:49.830 --> 0:15:53.590 in the hospital. And so I you know, I left 0:15:53.590 --> 0:15:57.110 the emergency room that day not knowing if I'd ever 0:15:57.150 --> 0:15:58.150 see Andrew again. 0:15:59.070 --> 0:16:00.190 Wow. And did you? 0:16:01.310 --> 0:16:06.390 I did. It was about six weeks, 4 to 6 weeks. 0:16:06.390 --> 0:16:09.750 And I was sitting outside. I went and I lived 0:16:09.750 --> 0:16:11.910 at my uncle and aunt's house that summer they were 0:16:11.910 --> 0:16:15.470 going to Canada. And they had a bigger, a beautiful 0:16:15.510 --> 0:16:18.989 big pergola in the backyard. So I would spend every morning, 0:16:19.030 --> 0:16:22.310 you know, at that pergola. And about 4 to 6 0:16:22.310 --> 0:16:25.830 weeks after everything happened, I saw I looked down at 0:16:25.830 --> 0:16:29.390 my phone and there was a Facebook Messenger message. And 0:16:29.390 --> 0:16:32.070 it was from Andrew because his kids had taken my 0:16:32.070 --> 0:16:35.630 phone number out of his phone. And so all his 0:16:35.630 --> 0:16:40.050 message said was, hey, I'm alive. And I thought, how 0:16:40.050 --> 0:16:42.890 do you respond to that? And I said, you know, 0:16:42.930 --> 0:16:45.130 I am so glad. And I went on to explain 0:16:45.130 --> 0:16:47.890 how sorry I was about the things that had happened. 0:16:47.890 --> 0:16:50.330 But I wanted him to know that I had not 0:16:50.330 --> 0:16:52.770 led my ex-husband to his home. I was not a 0:16:52.770 --> 0:16:55.570 part of that. And he was getting ready to go 0:16:55.570 --> 0:16:57.610 in for a surgery. And I said, can I come 0:16:57.650 --> 0:17:01.490 see you? And he said, no, I need to get 0:17:01.490 --> 0:17:05.530 through this surgery and I will contact you after the weekend. 0:17:05.530 --> 0:17:09.010 And he ended his text with words, take care. And 0:17:09.010 --> 0:17:11.450 I thought, what does take care mean? 0:17:12.770 --> 0:17:15.530 And again, what a place to take a break. Kimberly's 0:17:15.570 --> 0:17:18.850 new book is called healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming 0:17:18.850 --> 0:17:21.969 Your Life After Grief, loss, or Trauma. Now you understand 0:17:21.970 --> 0:17:24.690 the importance of Kimberly sharing her story. If she has 0:17:24.690 --> 0:17:26.730 gone through all of this and yet she can turn 0:17:26.730 --> 0:17:29.570 around and counsel other people, that there is a way 0:17:29.570 --> 0:17:32.810 to reclaim your life when horrific things like the what, 0:17:32.850 --> 0:17:36.000 like what she's describing have taken place and there's hope 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:38.919 for you. Whatever your circumstances are. So we're going to 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:40.639 take a break and come right back and find out 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:42.359 the rest of the story. And then you're going to 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.280 be encouraged to discover that there is a way to 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.320 just do that. Reclaim your life after whatever trauma you've 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:59.640 gone through back after this. Kimberly Hara is with us, 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:03.040 author of the book healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.760 Your Life After Grief, loss, or Trauma. It adds gravitas, 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:08.879 does it not? To what Kimberly has written in her 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.320 book because of what she's gone through. So take care. 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.399 Our Andrews last words to you as he sends this 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.919 text message, this messenger message to you. He's about to 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:23.200 go into surgery again, and it would be real normal, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.080 it seems to me to be able to say, take 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.760 care is a sign off. Don't contact me again. What happened? 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.720 You know, I was worried. It was. Well, I waited 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:37.230 for several days and I got another Facebook Messenger message 0:18:37.470 --> 0:18:41.190 and it said a visit would be nice, and he 0:18:41.190 --> 0:18:43.470 was still in the hospital. But he said, you've got 0:18:43.510 --> 0:18:46.230 to come when my kids aren't here. So here I am, 0:18:46.230 --> 0:18:49.149 50 years old. He's 53 and we are sneaking around 0:18:49.150 --> 0:18:52.550 adult children. And so I went up to his hospital 0:18:52.550 --> 0:18:55.070 room and I slowly opened the door, and I saw 0:18:55.070 --> 0:18:58.149 him there, and I looked at him and I said, Andrew, 0:18:58.150 --> 0:19:01.310 where does this leave us? And he said, I don't know. 0:19:01.550 --> 0:19:04.949 He said, I have seen the felony counts against, you know, 0:19:04.990 --> 0:19:07.790 your ex-husband. I know what happened to you and you 0:19:07.790 --> 0:19:10.270 are really going to be messed up. And he goes, 0:19:10.270 --> 0:19:12.310 I know what happened to me. He goes, I was 0:19:12.310 --> 0:19:14.949 shot ten times and I'm going to be really messed up. 0:19:15.270 --> 0:19:17.670 And something just came over me and I shook my 0:19:17.670 --> 0:19:20.470 finger in his face and I said, Andrew Harr, you 0:19:20.470 --> 0:19:23.790 will never meet another woman like me. And four weeks 0:19:23.790 --> 0:19:27.190 later we were engaged and four months later we were married. 0:19:27.350 --> 0:19:29.910 And that has now been eight years, and they have 0:19:29.910 --> 0:19:32.250 been some of the sweetest years of my life. 0:19:32.690 --> 0:19:36.890 Wow. Unbelievable. So many questions. Number one, tell me about 0:19:36.890 --> 0:19:39.090 your ex. What was his sentence? And is he in 0:19:39.090 --> 0:19:39.850 prison today? 0:19:40.530 --> 0:19:43.129 He is. My ex-husband was sentenced to prison for a 0:19:43.130 --> 0:19:46.689 very long time. Um, I usually try to be really careful. 0:19:46.730 --> 0:19:50.530 Only tell my story. Um, not somebody else's perspective. But 0:19:50.530 --> 0:19:52.690 he did go away for a very long time where 0:19:52.690 --> 0:19:54.530 I'm not going to have to worry about it. 0:19:54.730 --> 0:19:57.210 Excellent. And this is a question about trauma. Because if 0:19:57.210 --> 0:20:01.050 you think that this perpetrator is part of your future 0:20:01.050 --> 0:20:04.090 because the door could open. Is that a fear that 0:20:04.090 --> 0:20:06.370 has been eradicated based on the sentence? 0:20:07.330 --> 0:20:09.650 Um, you know, I think that when you are traumatized, 0:20:09.650 --> 0:20:12.570 I think there is always the what ifs because none 0:20:12.570 --> 0:20:15.210 of us control the justice system. You know, we see 0:20:15.250 --> 0:20:17.850 people getting out, we see people on parole. We see, 0:20:17.890 --> 0:20:20.650 you know, there's so much unknown. And I think it's 0:20:20.650 --> 0:20:24.490 really about we have no control. And so when trauma happens, 0:20:24.490 --> 0:20:28.490 it really it sends such a sense of powerlessness in 0:20:28.490 --> 0:20:32.480 anyone affected by trauma. so that powerlessness is something that 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:34.400 you feel for a very long time, and you really 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.640 just have to work through that, remind yourself of what 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.800 you can control. And and that's a part of the healing. 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:45.919 Wow. How did you and Andrew handle the adult children's objections? 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:47.840 Because they were the one who said, in the first place, 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:49.440 you go your way, he's going his. 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.840 Yes. You know, it's I had not met two of 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:56.959 his children, and so I can't blame them. They probably 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.240 thought that this is something from, like a Jerry Springer show. 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.560 You know, our dads dated somebody for four weeks, and 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.919 then he's shot ten times. And so I totally understood 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.600 where they were coming from. But when I went to 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.520 see Andrew in the hospital, his one son did come up. 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:13.960 And then his other kids were coming back into town. 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:16.920 And I think when they saw how happy their dad was, 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:21.760 they actually accepted me very graciously. And we have we 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.400 have a beautiful family with we've blended his three children, 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.360 my four children, some of them are married, so we've 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.310 got like 11 adult children and three grandchildren. We're a 0:21:31.310 --> 0:21:32.510 little bit like the Waltons. 0:21:33.670 --> 0:21:36.790 That's right. So which of the two of you says 0:21:36.790 --> 0:21:38.710 good night, John boy? You or Andrew? 0:21:39.430 --> 0:21:40.790 You know, usually. 0:21:40.790 --> 0:21:41.950 Usually it's me. 0:21:45.310 --> 0:21:49.550 Except I usually say. I usually say, are you sleepy? Yeah. 0:21:52.030 --> 0:21:54.710 Oh my word. So I have to ask you. And 0:21:54.750 --> 0:21:57.310 by the way, you said Jerry Springer. No, I'd say 0:21:57.350 --> 0:22:01.150 2020 or Dateline NBC. That's much more like that. So 0:22:01.150 --> 0:22:03.230 my question to you is, where's your relationship with the 0:22:03.230 --> 0:22:04.790 Lord in all of this? Where was it in the 0:22:04.790 --> 0:22:06.550 first marriage? Where is it in the four years when 0:22:06.550 --> 0:22:09.430 you're separated, where is it when you're going through literally 0:22:09.430 --> 0:22:10.950 the valley of the shadow of death? 0:22:11.190 --> 0:22:12.030 Yes. 0:22:12.070 --> 0:22:14.030 You know, I asked Jesus in my heart when I 0:22:14.030 --> 0:22:17.389 was the ripe old age of five, and I have 0:22:17.390 --> 0:22:20.070 walked with the Lord my entire life. I was kind 0:22:20.109 --> 0:22:24.310 of like that goody goody goody, the good Christian that, 0:22:24.350 --> 0:22:27.149 you know, didn't didn't do anything really big. Like I 0:22:27.150 --> 0:22:29.859 didn't smoke, didn't drink, didn't. I mean, I thought, hey, 0:22:29.900 --> 0:22:34.260 I am like squeaky clean. But I knew, I knew 0:22:34.300 --> 0:22:38.060 that when everything happened, I had so many emotions. You know, 0:22:38.100 --> 0:22:40.860 I felt in one hand I felt abandoned by God 0:22:41.100 --> 0:22:42.979 because I was like, God, why would you let something 0:22:42.980 --> 0:22:46.780 like this happen? But then I also knew that I 0:22:46.780 --> 0:22:50.700 had to run to God, because if I only relied 0:22:50.700 --> 0:22:54.459 on myself, I was in trouble. And so my faith 0:22:54.460 --> 0:22:58.379 really was my anchor. Even in my first marriage, you know, 0:22:58.420 --> 0:23:00.820 faith was very important, which is one of the reasons 0:23:00.820 --> 0:23:03.700 I stayed as long as I did. I, you know, 0:23:03.740 --> 0:23:07.060 I think it's very often heard in the Christian world, 0:23:07.100 --> 0:23:10.820 you know, believe, believe, believe. God will restore. God will restore. 0:23:10.820 --> 0:23:14.100 And he does. And I do believe that. But we 0:23:14.100 --> 0:23:16.940 need more teaching on things like boundaries. And God doesn't 0:23:16.940 --> 0:23:20.940 want us in abusive, you know, or infidelity relationships. God 0:23:20.940 --> 0:23:23.340 can heal things, but you've got to have two people 0:23:23.340 --> 0:23:26.440 that want to make something work. So God has always 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.760 been such a foundation. And you know, Janet, God was 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:34.240 so there was such a beautiful moment in, um, right 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.000 after I had gone through the four hours of assault, 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:40.320 I was laying on my bed and I felt a 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.920 presence in the room, and it was like it was 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:47.320 a sad presence, but I just recognized that this had 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:51.200 to be the presence of God. And in that moment, 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:55.760 all fear left me. And it was you mentioned earlier, 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:58.399 Psalm 23, the valley of the shadow of death. It 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.520 says that God will be with us in it. And 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:03.880 fear left me. And I knew in that moment that 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:06.280 if I died, I would not have died alone, because 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.600 I knew God was there holding my hand. 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.960 There's that peace that passes understanding, not like the world gives, 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:16.239 but the kind that Jesus himself gives. Kimberly Heyer is 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:20.080 with us. Her book is called healing from Life's Deepest Hurts. Now, 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:22.840 she not only wrote that book, if she's talking to 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:25.869 us today, going through what all of us would universally 0:24:25.869 --> 0:24:29.150 acknowledge as some of life's deepest hurts. But she can 0:24:29.150 --> 0:24:31.149 put one foot in front of the other and with 0:24:31.150 --> 0:24:33.670 joy face tomorrow. So can you. We're going to tell 0:24:33.670 --> 0:25:02.710 you how when we get back. We live in complicated 0:25:02.750 --> 0:25:05.350 times and in the market. We're helping you interpret complex 0:25:05.350 --> 0:25:08.189 cultural issues through the lens of Scripture. Our team of 0:25:08.190 --> 0:25:10.550 partial partners is growing. And to say thank you, they 0:25:10.550 --> 0:25:13.669 receive exclusive information from me. In fact, I talked to 0:25:13.710 --> 0:25:16.790 you directly from my personal computer to yours by email. 0:25:16.869 --> 0:25:19.790 Become a partial partner today and you'll receive these exclusive benefits. 0:25:19.790 --> 0:25:23.739 Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the 0:25:23.740 --> 0:25:28.580 market with Janet Parshall. If you're just joining us, I'm 0:25:28.580 --> 0:25:30.619 so glad you're here, but I got to tell you something. 0:25:30.619 --> 0:25:32.780 You are going to want to hear the first half 0:25:32.780 --> 0:25:35.100 of this conversation, and you can do that. Just go 0:25:35.100 --> 0:25:37.780 to wherever you find your favorite podcast. Download in the 0:25:37.780 --> 0:25:40.980 market with Janet Parshall. Put in today's date and our 0:25:40.980 --> 0:25:46.900 conversation with Kimberly are absolutely riveting story, but a declaration 0:25:46.900 --> 0:25:49.619 of what trauma is, what it does, what it looks 0:25:49.619 --> 0:25:52.780 like and opens the door for healing. And Kimberly should 0:25:52.780 --> 0:25:56.540 know she's a survivor of domestic violence, a licensed professional counselor, 0:25:56.580 --> 0:25:59.260 a licensed marriage and family therapist, nearly two decades of 0:25:59.260 --> 0:26:02.940 experience helping others find healing and wholeness. She has an 0:26:02.940 --> 0:26:06.340 Ma in Marriage and Family Therapy from Southern Nazarene University, 0:26:06.340 --> 0:26:09.379 is a featured co-host on Oasis Radio Network, and her 0:26:09.380 --> 0:26:13.139 therapy practice is located in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where she inspires 0:26:13.140 --> 0:26:15.820 and helps others on a regular basis. Her brand new 0:26:15.820 --> 0:26:19.300 book is called healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming Your 0:26:19.300 --> 0:26:22.959 Life After Grief, loss, and Trauma. So, so many things 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:25.240 running through my head after this story. Literally, it reads 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.439 like a movie script, except it's reality. And who would 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:32.080 have thought that a you'd deal with the trauma of infidelity? 0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:35.040 You make this tough choice. But a wise choice, I 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:37.840 think in retrospect of saying for years, I'm just going 0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:40.239 to step away from any relationship. I'm going to be 0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:43.360 a mom. You meet this gentleman by the name of Andrew. 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:46.960 Your ex goes after him, plugs him ten times, fighting 0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:49.720 for his life. Long story short, you and Andrew get 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:52.640 engaged and married. You've been now married. Hence eight plus years. 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:55.679 It would have been you had multiple opportunities in that 0:26:55.680 --> 0:26:58.520 story with so many layers to say I'm a victim. 0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:00.400 I want you to feel sorry for me. And this 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:02.160 is how I'm going to identify, because we're all about 0:27:02.160 --> 0:27:04.719 self-identification these days. So, hey, why not? I'm going to 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:06.760 be a victim now for the rest of my life. 0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:10.280 Why did you choose not to label yourself a victim? 0:27:11.359 --> 0:27:13.880 I think it's because I knew how important it is 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:18.440 to heal. And where I identified as a victim, I 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:22.189 identified as a victim in those, you know, six hours, 0:27:22.190 --> 0:27:26.109 seven hours that I went through. But when I went 0:27:26.109 --> 0:27:29.669 to the it was the victim witness center in my town, 0:27:29.670 --> 0:27:32.429 and I would always have to sign in on a 0:27:32.470 --> 0:27:35.870 piece of paper because it was a crime. And it 0:27:35.869 --> 0:27:38.750 would say, victim sign here. And there was a little 0:27:38.750 --> 0:27:42.230 red arrow where I was supposed to sign, and something 0:27:42.230 --> 0:27:46.230 would always not sit right with me because I knew 0:27:46.270 --> 0:27:50.550 that while I had been victimized, I did not want 0:27:50.550 --> 0:27:53.109 the label of this is this is the end of 0:27:53.109 --> 0:27:56.910 my story. And I knew that I didn't know how 0:27:56.910 --> 0:27:59.510 I was going to heal, but I knew I was 0:27:59.510 --> 0:28:01.950 making a decision that no matter what it took, I 0:28:01.950 --> 0:28:04.950 was going to heal. And and I think that that's 0:28:04.950 --> 0:28:08.709 really where so much of our healing begins is we 0:28:08.750 --> 0:28:11.470 don't know how we're going to heal, but we have 0:28:11.470 --> 0:28:14.790 to make that choice of, I know I want to heal. 0:28:16.270 --> 0:28:19.100 So it's a volitional act. You have the emotions. If 0:28:19.100 --> 0:28:20.780 you let your emotions lead, you could say, I'm going 0:28:20.820 --> 0:28:22.500 to stay in this victim position, but I'm going to 0:28:22.540 --> 0:28:25.060 choose not to identify myself that way. 0:28:25.700 --> 0:28:28.859 That's right. You know, the the day that I sat 0:28:28.859 --> 0:28:32.660 in the emergency room, um, I had a detective that 0:28:32.660 --> 0:28:35.060 was training another detective, and I met up with her 0:28:35.060 --> 0:28:37.700 maybe about a year later, and she asked me, and 0:28:37.700 --> 0:28:40.060 she said, Kim, do you remember what you said to 0:28:40.060 --> 0:28:42.820 me when you were sitting in that emergency room? And 0:28:42.820 --> 0:28:45.180 I said, no, I don't remember much. And she said, 0:28:45.180 --> 0:28:47.660 you looked at me and you said, I will not 0:28:47.660 --> 0:28:50.700 let this experience go to waste. I will be a 0:28:50.700 --> 0:28:54.700 better therapist because of it. And then my oldest daughter said, mom, 0:28:54.740 --> 0:28:56.900 do you remember what you said to me in that 0:28:56.900 --> 0:29:00.020 emergency room? And you have to understand, my face was bloodied, 0:29:00.020 --> 0:29:03.620 I was unrecognizable, and I said, no, I don't remember 0:29:03.620 --> 0:29:05.820 what I said. And she goes, mom, you looked at 0:29:05.820 --> 0:29:08.180 me and you said, promise me you will not let 0:29:08.180 --> 0:29:11.740 this make you bitter. And sitting in that emergency room, 0:29:11.740 --> 0:29:13.460 I didn't know how I was going to heal. I 0:29:13.460 --> 0:29:16.660 had a bunch of emotions, I was angry, I was scared, 0:29:16.660 --> 0:29:21.320 I was numb, but yet I knew. Whatever it is, 0:29:21.320 --> 0:29:23.240 I'm going to do the hard work to heal. 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:26.840 Early on and right out of the gate. 0:29:27.720 --> 0:29:30.120 Early on, right out of the gate. And some of that, 0:29:30.120 --> 0:29:32.880 I think, probably does have to do with my experience 0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:35.800 as being a therapist. I have I have walked so 0:29:35.800 --> 0:29:39.120 many people through their own hard stories and and their 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:43.400 trauma stories, and now it was me. Uh, but, you know, 0:29:43.440 --> 0:29:47.520 even on that day is and it it's really incongruent 0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:49.640 because it feels like I had all these feelings of 0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:54.360 anger and frustration and and fear. And yet I also 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:57.440 had this knowledge that says, okay, but I want to 0:29:57.480 --> 0:30:01.040 heal from this. And that same day, my ex-husband, actually, 0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:04.440 after the four hours the intoxication was wearing off him, 0:30:04.840 --> 0:30:07.200 and he looked down into my bloodied face, and I 0:30:07.200 --> 0:30:09.960 think he recognized the gravity of what he had done. 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:12.320 And he looked at me and he said, tell me 0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:16.790 the truth. I've gone too far. You could never forgive me. 0:30:17.310 --> 0:30:20.710 And I paused for a moment, and I knew that 0:30:20.710 --> 0:30:24.590 I did not want to be labeled as unforgiving and 0:30:24.590 --> 0:30:27.870 bitter and hurt and angry, and that wasn't going to 0:30:27.870 --> 0:30:30.990 be the end of my story. And so the very 0:30:30.990 --> 0:30:34.470 last words I ever spoke to my ex-husband were, I 0:30:34.470 --> 0:30:37.470 looked up into his face and I said, yes, you 0:30:37.470 --> 0:30:40.270 have gone too far. But I want you to know 0:30:40.270 --> 0:30:43.150 that I will forgive you. And those were the last 0:30:43.150 --> 0:30:44.830 things I ever said to him. 0:30:45.630 --> 0:30:47.950 Wow. I'm going to go back to that in a minute. 0:30:47.950 --> 0:30:49.710 But let me fast forward to Andrew. You know this 0:30:49.750 --> 0:30:52.830 in your world full well. So Andrew was traumatized. You 0:30:52.830 --> 0:30:56.070 were traumatized. How did you know? Being a good therapist. 0:30:56.070 --> 0:30:58.270 And I'm sure that you sift and wade and more importantly, 0:30:58.270 --> 0:31:01.830 prayed and prayed and prayed. How did you make sure, 0:31:01.870 --> 0:31:04.190 going forward in your relationship with Andrew, that this wasn't 0:31:04.230 --> 0:31:06.190 a relationship built on a trauma bond? 0:31:07.110 --> 0:31:09.470 You know, I think because when we first met each 0:31:09.510 --> 0:31:13.910 other in the four weeks before everything happened, we both 0:31:13.910 --> 0:31:16.380 knew that, you know, we were adults. We were in 0:31:16.380 --> 0:31:18.940 our 50s. We weren't looking to start a brand new 0:31:18.940 --> 0:31:22.140 family together, start careers. I mean, we had both been 0:31:22.140 --> 0:31:25.500 married over 20 years, and we just knew that this 0:31:25.500 --> 0:31:28.860 is what we both desired. So there was lots of 0:31:28.860 --> 0:31:32.660 opportunity in after the trauma for it to actually tear 0:31:32.660 --> 0:31:36.300 us apart. But we each you know, I had to 0:31:36.340 --> 0:31:39.660 do so much of the emotional healing, as did Andrew, 0:31:39.660 --> 0:31:43.060 but he had more physical healing because he underwent, I 0:31:43.060 --> 0:31:46.380 think it ended up being like 13 surgeries. So we 0:31:46.380 --> 0:31:49.860 both came from different places, but all I can say 0:31:49.860 --> 0:31:52.860 is the hand of God was on it. And and 0:31:52.860 --> 0:31:56.020 in the beginning I really I tried to take control. 0:31:56.020 --> 0:31:57.820 I can be a little bit of a control freak, 0:31:58.140 --> 0:32:01.140 and I tried telling the Lord what he needed to do, 0:32:01.140 --> 0:32:03.180 when he needed to do it and how he needed 0:32:03.180 --> 0:32:05.100 to do it. And I told him, I said, and 0:32:05.100 --> 0:32:09.660 it would make such a great testimony. And and then 0:32:09.660 --> 0:32:11.900 I would say, but, Lord, I'm going to trust you. 0:32:12.500 --> 0:32:16.120 And and when I really got real with that, I 0:32:16.120 --> 0:32:19.040 told the Lord, I'm scared to trust you. Because what 0:32:19.040 --> 0:32:21.800 if you don't give me what you want? What I want? 0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:24.600 And I got to a place where I said, Lord, 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:27.080 I am so scared to trust you. But even that 0:32:27.080 --> 0:32:29.320 was a choice. It was not a feeling because I 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:33.240 did not feel like trusting. I did not feel like surrendering. 0:32:33.560 --> 0:32:35.400 But it was a choice. And it was a little 0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:37.560 bit like David in Psalms, when he would make a 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:40.240 declaration and he would say, bless the Lord, O my soul. 0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:42.959 I would tell myself, I am going to trust the 0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:45.680 Lord on this, and it doesn't mean I felt like it. 0:32:45.680 --> 0:32:48.280 And sometimes I had to tell myself 100 times a 0:32:48.280 --> 0:32:50.560 day I would have to say, okay, I'm I'm going 0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:52.000 to trust him. And then I try and take it 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:55.320 back again and I'd remind myself, no, I am choosing. 0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:58.160 I am going to trust my Heavenly Father. 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:00.880 Yeah. You know, let me underscore this because you've said 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:03.680 it several times, and I think all of us need 0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:06.600 to remember this. I remember Dietrich Bonhoeffer when he was 0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:10.240 writing The Cost of Discipleship inside a prison camp where 0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:12.190 he would eventually lose his life, he said. You know, 0:33:12.230 --> 0:33:13.950 you can take away my friends. You can take away 0:33:13.950 --> 0:33:16.990 my family. You can take away my sustenance. You can 0:33:16.990 --> 0:33:19.510 take away everything, but you can never take away the 0:33:19.510 --> 0:33:24.430 freedom for me to choose my attitude and you. Early on, 0:33:24.430 --> 0:33:29.630 after you'd been brutalized in the ER face, unrecognizable, traumatized 0:33:29.630 --> 0:33:32.390 with a capital T 14 capital teas. By the way, 0:33:32.590 --> 0:33:35.350 you've been traumatized. And yet even in that space, you 0:33:35.350 --> 0:33:39.270 talked about forgiveness. Now, that doesn't happen coming out of 0:33:39.270 --> 0:33:42.229 your motions, because every single part of our ID says, 0:33:42.230 --> 0:33:44.430 I'm not going to forgive you at all. In fact, 0:33:44.430 --> 0:33:45.950 if anything, I want to lunge at you and take 0:33:45.950 --> 0:33:49.230 your throat out with my teeth. But you started making 0:33:49.230 --> 0:33:52.870 a volitional choice about forgiveness. You write in the book 0:33:52.870 --> 0:33:55.470 that forget about healing. If you don't have forgiveness in 0:33:55.470 --> 0:33:57.790 this mix, it's going to be an exercise in futility. 0:33:57.830 --> 0:33:58.950 Talk to me about that. 0:33:59.310 --> 0:34:02.630 Sure. Well, I think I actually had both of those feelings. 0:34:02.630 --> 0:34:05.950 I had the wanting to to strangle and, you know, 0:34:05.990 --> 0:34:08.469 I had all of those emotions. So I don't want 0:34:08.469 --> 0:34:11.660 to have any listeners think that I just decided, oh, 0:34:11.660 --> 0:34:13.540 I'm going to forgive. And it's going to be easy 0:34:13.739 --> 0:34:17.020 because I was I was so angry and I there 0:34:17.020 --> 0:34:20.100 was so many emotions that were hitting all at once. 0:34:20.380 --> 0:34:22.779 But there was a part of knowing I can't be 0:34:22.780 --> 0:34:26.100 led by my emotions because my emotions are up one day, 0:34:26.100 --> 0:34:28.060 down the next, up the next, and it's such a 0:34:28.060 --> 0:34:32.340 roller coaster. And when I made the decision to forgive, 0:34:32.380 --> 0:34:34.980 it doesn't mean that I felt it because I did 0:34:34.980 --> 0:34:38.700 not feel it. I was furious, I wanted my ex-husband 0:34:38.739 --> 0:34:41.020 in in jail that night. I wanted him to go 0:34:41.020 --> 0:34:45.140 to prison. But I will say that that night I. 0:34:45.180 --> 0:34:48.100 I knew I was going to forgive. I did not 0:34:48.100 --> 0:34:51.580 want to not forgive. And I prayed for my ex-husband 0:34:51.620 --> 0:34:54.660 that night. I prayed that he wouldn't be scared in jail, 0:34:54.660 --> 0:34:56.779 and I prayed that the angels would surround him and 0:34:56.780 --> 0:34:59.940 he would feel their presence. And not because I was 0:34:59.940 --> 0:35:02.780 in love with my ex-husband because I was not. Uh, 0:35:02.780 --> 0:35:06.060 but it was more, Lord, I'm just asking you where 0:35:06.060 --> 0:35:08.340 he's going. He's going to be gone a really long time. 0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:11.640 become real to him, because I knew God didn't love 0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:15.040 me any more than he loved my ex-husband. And that 0:35:15.040 --> 0:35:18.040 was really the first step, was saying, I don't know 0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:21.400 how I'm going to forgive, but I'm going to want 0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:24.000 to want to forgive. And and it's just that one 0:35:24.000 --> 0:35:25.759 baby step after another. 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:29.600 Yeah, yeah. Exactly right. One baby step after another. It 0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:31.719 made me think, though, because. And I want to get 0:35:31.719 --> 0:35:35.680 deeper into the pragmatics of forgiveness. What does that look 0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:39.120 like when you put shoe leather into it? If your 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:41.520 ex is in prison a long time has he reached 0:35:41.520 --> 0:35:44.759 out to you at all since? No. So good. I 0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:46.399 would think that would be a blessing from the Lord 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:48.560 that there isn't even an attempt to contact you. 0:35:48.800 --> 0:35:52.000 Yeah. No, um, and I don't I don't question any 0:35:52.000 --> 0:35:54.440 of it. It is, you know, I don't even I 0:35:54.440 --> 0:35:58.040 don't think that there's even an opportunity that he could, um, but, 0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:02.120 you know, when you're talking about forgiveness, unforgiveness, when somebody 0:36:02.120 --> 0:36:07.549 holds unforgiveness, it's actually hurting ourselves, and it becomes like 0:36:07.550 --> 0:36:10.710 an umbilical cord that connects us with the person that 0:36:10.710 --> 0:36:13.870 hurt us. And so when we forgive, we're really doing 0:36:13.870 --> 0:36:15.030 it for ourselves. 0:36:15.430 --> 0:36:15.790 Yeah. 0:36:16.030 --> 0:36:18.509 When we come back, just linger a little bit longer, 0:36:18.510 --> 0:36:21.029 because this is the spinal column in this whole discussion 0:36:21.030 --> 0:36:24.510 is this idea of volitional forgiveness. What does that mean 0:36:24.510 --> 0:36:27.270 to say to your husband? You know, I pray for you. 0:36:27.270 --> 0:36:29.670 I'm going to ask God to forgive you for what 0:36:29.670 --> 0:36:32.310 you did. What does that mean in the pragmatics? Because 0:36:32.350 --> 0:36:36.069 for so many people, forgiveness sometimes equates the idea of 0:36:36.070 --> 0:36:38.150 an obliteration of the trauma that took place in the 0:36:38.150 --> 0:36:40.950 first place. How do you square all of that off? 0:36:40.950 --> 0:36:43.350 Kimberly Hauer's with us. Your book is called healing from 0:36:43.350 --> 0:36:47.710 Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming Your Life After Grief, loss, and Trauma. 0:36:47.750 --> 0:37:01.910 Back after this. Healing from Life's Deepest Hurts is the 0:37:01.910 --> 0:37:04.310 new book by Kimberly Hauer, who's a survivor of domestic 0:37:04.310 --> 0:37:07.620 violence as well as a licensed professional counselor. And we 0:37:07.620 --> 0:37:09.980 got to the point in our conversation where we recognized 0:37:09.980 --> 0:37:14.819 that healing is impossible without forgiveness. But it's not just 0:37:14.820 --> 0:37:17.500 the word. It's that transcendent recognition we have as followers 0:37:17.500 --> 0:37:19.940 of Christ that forgiveness has to be a part of 0:37:19.940 --> 0:37:23.020 this because Christ directs us to be able to do that. 0:37:23.020 --> 0:37:26.219 But now that's I understand that vertically, but horizontally I 0:37:26.219 --> 0:37:28.500 have to put shoe leather into this. What does that 0:37:28.500 --> 0:37:30.420 look like in its application? 0:37:31.660 --> 0:37:34.259 Yeah. You know, I think that forgiveness, first of all, 0:37:34.260 --> 0:37:37.220 you mentioned this earlier is lots of times we don't 0:37:37.219 --> 0:37:40.259 forgive or we don't want to forgive because we don't 0:37:40.260 --> 0:37:45.340 understand what forgiveness is. Forgiveness does not mean what happened 0:37:45.340 --> 0:37:48.620 was okay. Forgiveness does not mean I have to be 0:37:48.620 --> 0:37:52.259 in a relationship. It does not mean a restoration of 0:37:52.260 --> 0:37:57.379 a relationship. Forgiveness is really more about giving up that 0:37:57.380 --> 0:38:03.219 right to be right. It's about not seeking revenge and punishment. 0:38:03.500 --> 0:38:07.480 And it's it's really again, I keep saying that choice, 0:38:07.480 --> 0:38:10.759 but it's so important that so often people think I 0:38:10.760 --> 0:38:13.640 have to feel like I want to forgive. And in 0:38:13.640 --> 0:38:16.279 the beginning, in the beginning, I would, you know, I 0:38:16.280 --> 0:38:20.200 would say out loud, I choose to forgive. I choose 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:23.439 to forgive. And one of the practical things we can 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:26.880 do is when our brain wants to replay everything that happened, 0:38:26.880 --> 0:38:29.640 where we ruminate on it, and we stir up the 0:38:29.640 --> 0:38:33.239 anger and we stir it up, that actually keeps it going. 0:38:33.560 --> 0:38:37.279 And so when we can actually catch those thoughts and say, 0:38:37.280 --> 0:38:40.680 you know what? Hey, it wasn't fair. It wasn't okay. 0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:45.680 But I'm choosing to make a choice to not seek revenge, 0:38:45.719 --> 0:38:49.400 not seek punishment. And I'm going to turn that over 0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:52.439 to my Heavenly Father, because you know what? You used 0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:57.200 the word before about compassion. And you know, when Jesus 0:38:57.200 --> 0:38:59.799 was hanging on the cross, he could have said all 0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:02.360 those same things. It's not fair. I didn't do anything 0:39:02.400 --> 0:39:07.030 to deserve this. And yet he gave us an example 0:39:07.270 --> 0:39:11.430 of how to forgive. He says, bless those that curse you. 0:39:11.469 --> 0:39:14.910 Not blame those. And so it is a it is 0:39:14.910 --> 0:39:17.430 a walking out. It's like the layers of an onion. 0:39:17.590 --> 0:39:19.509 It is. You know what? Today I'm going to walk 0:39:19.510 --> 0:39:21.870 through forgiveness. And tomorrow, when I remember it and I 0:39:21.870 --> 0:39:24.190 want to get stirred up, I'm going to forgive again 0:39:24.190 --> 0:39:26.029 for the same thing. And I'm going to do that 0:39:26.030 --> 0:39:29.029 until I get to that bottom layer. And when my 0:39:29.030 --> 0:39:32.190 brain reminds me, the pain isn't there. 0:39:34.190 --> 0:39:37.149 Great word of encouragement. Thank you for that. Let me 0:39:37.150 --> 0:39:40.270 ask you about a secondary component that I think is 0:39:40.550 --> 0:39:42.830 absolutely essential if there's going to be healing, and that 0:39:42.830 --> 0:39:45.549 is this idea of trust. But trust can't be demanded. 0:39:45.550 --> 0:39:48.350 It has to be earned. Now, again, we could look 0:39:48.350 --> 0:39:51.469 at this vertically and horizontally. Let me start vertically first. 0:39:51.630 --> 0:39:54.350 How does one put their trust back in God? Because 0:39:54.350 --> 0:39:57.549 the heart cry whenever they're suffering is almost always for 0:39:57.550 --> 0:40:00.670 every one of us. Why, God? Why me? Why didn't 0:40:00.670 --> 0:40:02.980 you do something? So how do we rebuild the trust 0:40:02.980 --> 0:40:03.620 with God? 0:40:04.180 --> 0:40:07.140 Yeah. You know, I think that one of the beautiful 0:40:07.140 --> 0:40:09.859 things about the relationship with the Lord is that he 0:40:09.860 --> 0:40:12.660 lets us come to him with all of our emotions, 0:40:12.660 --> 0:40:16.859 including anger, frustration, our but wise. It's not fair. And 0:40:16.860 --> 0:40:21.700 he doesn't chastise us for it. He actually welcomes us. 0:40:21.980 --> 0:40:26.259 And in that process, when we run to him, and 0:40:26.260 --> 0:40:29.780 we even sometimes need to forgive God. Not that God 0:40:29.780 --> 0:40:33.140 needs our forgiveness, but sometimes we need to release him 0:40:33.140 --> 0:40:36.460 from our expectations of what he should or shouldn't have done. 0:40:36.900 --> 0:40:40.779 And I like to give an example of of kind 0:40:40.780 --> 0:40:43.340 of trust, because I am often asked, why does God 0:40:43.340 --> 0:40:47.020 allow bad things to happen? And I don't have some 0:40:47.020 --> 0:40:50.900 cookie cutter answer for that. But I'm reminded of when 0:40:50.940 --> 0:40:54.380 my middle daughter, I took her for her immunizations before 0:40:54.380 --> 0:40:56.580 she went to kindergarten. This is, you know, almost 30 0:40:56.580 --> 0:41:00.160 years ago. And she looked up at me with crocodile tears. 0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:01.839 And she kind of was like, mom, why are you 0:41:01.840 --> 0:41:04.759 letting this happen? This is this is painful. And I 0:41:04.760 --> 0:41:07.960 remember looking in her eyes saying, look into my eyes. 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:10.760 I am not going anywhere. I am right here. Hold 0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:14.440 my hand. You are not going through this alone. And 0:41:14.440 --> 0:41:17.200 I think that when we allow ourselves to be honest 0:41:17.200 --> 0:41:20.960 with God in our struggle and we allow ourselves to 0:41:21.000 --> 0:41:24.560 feel that wooing of him, it's like he is saying, 0:41:24.760 --> 0:41:28.359 look into my eyes, hold my hand tight. I am 0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:32.640 not going anywhere. I am your ABBA father. And so 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:35.120 some of that is it. You know, in the very 0:41:35.120 --> 0:41:37.680 beginning I told the Lord, I am so empty I 0:41:37.719 --> 0:41:41.840 can't even pray. And those first few days I laid 0:41:41.880 --> 0:41:44.640 face down on a cement floor under a pergola. And 0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:47.840 I said, Lord, I know in Zephaniah there's a scripture 0:41:47.840 --> 0:41:50.759 that says, you sing over us. And I said, I 0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:53.480 am asking you to sing life back into my body, 0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:56.200 sing life back into me, because I don't have words. 0:41:56.719 --> 0:41:59.990 And little by little It's like I would let praise 0:41:59.989 --> 0:42:02.310 and worship music, the words. I just let it become 0:42:02.310 --> 0:42:05.790 a prayer and fill me up and. And rather than 0:42:05.790 --> 0:42:09.430 taking our anger out at God and running away, it's 0:42:09.430 --> 0:42:13.149 really going to him and letting him be our shelter 0:42:13.670 --> 0:42:17.469 and doing it in. It's not a fast process. It's 0:42:17.469 --> 0:42:21.670 just saying, Lord, I'm just showing up. I may be mad, 0:42:21.790 --> 0:42:22.830 but I'm showing up. 0:42:24.510 --> 0:42:27.510 Wow. What do you say to the person? And you're 0:42:27.510 --> 0:42:29.310 talking to an awful lot of people right now, Kimberly. 0:42:29.310 --> 0:42:32.590 What about that person who's listening that says, well, I'm 0:42:32.630 --> 0:42:35.590 beyond God's healing. You don't understand how deep and dark 0:42:35.590 --> 0:42:37.989 and awful this is. And perhaps it's something that they 0:42:37.989 --> 0:42:41.190 experienced 30 years ago, and they've been dragging it like 0:42:41.190 --> 0:42:43.790 a backpack full of boulders for their life, thinking that 0:42:43.790 --> 0:42:45.750 somehow if they just don't identify it, if they just 0:42:45.750 --> 0:42:47.910 don't tackle it, if they don't deal with it, if 0:42:47.910 --> 0:42:51.070 they leave it in their emotional closet and deadbolt the door, 0:42:51.230 --> 0:42:53.790 they can just get on with life. Talk to that person. 0:42:53.790 --> 0:42:54.390 What would you say? 0:42:54.430 --> 0:42:57.940 Sure. You know, I think when we deadbolt that and 0:42:57.940 --> 0:43:01.340 keep it private where nobody can see it. Shame wants 0:43:01.340 --> 0:43:04.060 to come in, and I like to say when you 0:43:04.060 --> 0:43:06.660 take the word shame apart, the first two letters of 0:43:06.660 --> 0:43:10.739 shame are s-h, which is sh. It's about secrets. The 0:43:10.739 --> 0:43:14.740 first four letters are sham, which are lies. And that's 0:43:14.739 --> 0:43:17.700 what the devil wants. He wants us to isolate ourselves 0:43:17.700 --> 0:43:20.419 so that we believe his lies. We partner with his 0:43:20.420 --> 0:43:23.620 lies about how bad we are or how awful things are. 0:43:23.620 --> 0:43:26.700 Or our life will never get better. And there is 0:43:26.700 --> 0:43:30.740 no person that is beyond the reach of Jesus. There 0:43:30.739 --> 0:43:35.340 is no story too hard that God can't redeem. And 0:43:35.340 --> 0:43:37.900 I like to say I felt so much in the 0:43:37.900 --> 0:43:40.540 early days. I felt like I was Humpty Dumpty that 0:43:40.540 --> 0:43:43.259 had fallen off the wall. All the king's horses, all 0:43:43.260 --> 0:43:46.500 the king's men couldn't put me back together again. But 0:43:46.500 --> 0:43:48.660 then I went to the King of kings. And the 0:43:48.660 --> 0:43:52.780 King of kings is a master at making beauty from 0:43:52.780 --> 0:43:53.580 our ashes. 0:43:54.900 --> 0:43:57.600 What a note to end this on. First step toward healing. 0:43:57.600 --> 0:43:59.759 I've got about 15 seconds left. Kimberly, what do you 0:43:59.760 --> 0:44:02.880 say to the person who says, okay, I'm really resonating 0:44:02.880 --> 0:44:05.359 with what you're saying? What's my first move? What's my 0:44:05.360 --> 0:44:06.560 first step? What do I do? 0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:11.959 Yeah. Just begin. Begin. Take those small steps. Take care 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:15.880 of your body, get in community. Get a trusted person 0:44:15.880 --> 0:44:18.560 that can help walk beside you so you're not isolated. 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:22.680 You're not alone. And just know that healing is possible 0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:25.280 and it is available for everyone. 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:29.239 Amen and exclamation point, Kimberly. Thank you for a tremendous 0:44:29.239 --> 0:44:31.799 hour of encouragement. Let me tell my friends again. The 0:44:31.800 --> 0:44:35.399 book is called healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming Your 0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:38.720 Life After Grief, loss, or Trauma. And if God can 0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:41.760 do that after you've just heard Kimberly's story for her. Oh, 0:44:42.000 --> 0:44:44.560 he can do the same and more for you as well. 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:47.160 Check out the book, it's available on our information page. 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:48.719 You can click on through and find where you can 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:51.279 get your own copy. In the meantime, Kimberly, thank you 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:53.920 for a wonderful conversation. Lord bless you friends. We'll see 0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:54.640 you next time.