S1: Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
S1: and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
S1: and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
S1: But before you go, I want to tell you about
S1: this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
S1: And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
S1: going out into the night sky and looking up and
S1: seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
S1: about God? And are you not in a moment of
S1: awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
S1: of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
S1: that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
S1: wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
S1: of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
S1: book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
S1: from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
S1: a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
S1: this sense of awe through the work that they do.
S1: In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
S1: it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
S1: because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
S1: to walk through the chapters written by people who all
S1: have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
S1: to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
S1: amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
S1: just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
S1: for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
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S1: partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you
S1: ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: Americans worshiping government over God.
S5: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S5: Is not an option. Hi friends.
S1: Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you
S1: so much for deciding to spend the hour with me.
S1: It is my fervent hope and prayer this hour that
S1: you're going to hear something that's going to encourage you.
S1: You know what my mom used to say growing up? Oh, honey,
S1: everybody has a story and everybody's got pain. Yeah, but
S1: you don't always wear it on the outside, right? First,
S1: Samuel tells me that man looks on the outward appearance,
S1: but God looks on the heart. So you and I
S1: can't necessarily tell by looking at somebody that they have
S1: a broken, bruised or wounded heart, that they're carrying pain
S1: for decades in their backpack for life. And yet, how
S1: are we supposed to comfort them if we don't know?
S1: How are they themselves supposed to find healing and joy
S1: and restoration and hope? And yet we live East of Eden.
S1: These are the hallmarks of what it's like walking out
S1: of the garden. Sin sick, fallen world, and pain and
S1: trauma and hurt are all a part of this world.
S1: So I am so thankful that there are people who
S1: want a heart like Jesus's, and he had compassion on them.
S1: How many times in the New Testament does it say
S1: that I get a lump in my throat every time
S1: I read it? If I want a heart like his?
S1: It means one of the hallmarks has to be a
S1: heart filled with compassion, understanding that they are hurting people
S1: out there and wanting to know that people who hurt
S1: can be healed. But it takes commitment. It takes grace,
S1: it takes mercy, it takes time. And I'm so very
S1: grateful that God raises up people who teach us how
S1: to do just that. And Kimberly here is just one
S1: such person. She is a survivor of domestic violence. She's
S1: a licensed professional counselor. She's a licensed marriage and family
S1: therapist with nearly two decades of experience helping others find
S1: healing and wholeness in their life. She has an Ma
S1: in Marriage and Family Therapy from Southern Nazarene University. She's
S1: a featured co-host on Oasis Radio Network, and her therapy
S1: practice is located in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where she continues to
S1: inspire hope and strengthen those and strength in those facing
S1: life's challenges. So she joins us today because Kimberly has
S1: a brand new book out. It's called healing from Life's
S1: Deepest Hurts Reclaiming Your Life After Grief, loss, and Trauma. Now,
S1: do you understand why I said, I hope this is
S1: going to be an hour of encouragement? Because out of
S1: that whole title, you know what the most important word is?
S1: Reclaiming residing within the parameters of that word is the
S1: hope and the belief that you can find joy and
S1: peace again. And if you don't hear anything else that our.
S1: I hope you hang on to that because it can
S1: take place in your life. How do I know? Because
S1: we have a great and glorious God. Kimberly, thank you
S1: so much for joining me. There's a sneak peek in
S1: your bio, and I know that probably a lot of
S1: people want to start by asking you this question, but
S1: I want to ask you this question for a couple
S1: of reasons. Number one, because I believe that the most
S1: powerful teachers we have are the ones who have both
S1: ethos and pathos. Ethos is you got the book learning.
S1: It's right there between your ears. You got all the smarts,
S1: you got a bunch of initials after your name. But
S1: the pathos means, yeah, I got the book learning, but
S1: I also got the bruises and I can tell you
S1: exactly what you're feeling because I've been there before. And
S1: if God can heal me, I want you to know
S1: he can heal you as well. So part of your
S1: bio right out of the gate is a survivor of
S1: domestic violence. Tell me about your story.
S6: Yes, well, I actually had been married for 23 years,
S6: and during that time there really had not been domestic
S6: violence in my home. And I made the decision after
S6: 23 years. It was the hardest decision of my life.
S6: But I made the decision to divorce my first husband,
S6: and the reason I did that is there had been
S6: patterns of infidelity our entire marriage. Um, I had forgiven
S6: and forgiven and forgiven and believed and asked the Lord
S6: to restore. But in 2013, I discovered that my first
S6: husband had been in an affair. And at that point,
S6: I knew that I could no longer stay in my marriage.
S6: And so I made the decision to file for divorce.
S6: But I also made the decision to stay single for
S6: four years because our youngest children were still in high school.
S6: And so I told my ex-husband, I said, you know,
S6: you get your life together four years from now. If
S6: you've got your life right, figure things out. Maybe there
S6: would be a day we could reconcile. But between now
S6: and then, I'm going to be just mom. And four
S6: years came and went. And I knew that it was 2017.
S6: I woke up and something inside me said, this is
S6: the year you're going to be married again. And I
S6: knew my ex-husband had not made the changes that I needed,
S6: and so I began to date. I began to make
S6: myself available, um, you know, just to kind of start
S6: a new life for myself. And I met a man
S6: on April 1st, which was April Fool's Day, and I
S6: knew almost immediately, this is the man I was going
S6: to marry. Now, we saw each other almost every day
S6: for a month, but it had been a great month.
S6: During that time, he had asked me and told me
S6: he knew he wanted to marry me. In fact, he
S6: was an engineer and it was kind of funny. He
S6: told me that he had asked Google how long you
S6: need to know somebody before you know you're in love.
S6: And I thought, okay, that is definitely the engineer brain
S6: that wants to statistics and data. And and I was
S6: very upset when I learned, I think Google told him
S6: six months and I was like, well, ask Siri. Um,
S6: so so he told me, though, he said, you know,
S6: I want to marry you. And I know it wasn't
S6: a question, so I wasn't going to embarrass myself. I
S6: wasn't going to say yes. Um, but we both knew
S6: that that's where we were headed. In the meantime, it
S6: had been a full month of dating, and my ex-husband
S6: called me and he asked me to come and talk
S6: to him about our children. That was not in common.
S6: We had talked many times before, and when I went
S6: to see him, he made a comment. He started talking
S6: about wanting to get back together with me, and I
S6: said he needed to move on because I had moved
S6: on and he said, Maybe I'm going to have to
S6: go talk to this man. And I didn't know necessarily
S6: what that meant because I didn't know he knew who
S6: this person was. I didn't think, you know, he knew
S6: where he lived. But unbeknownst to me, my ex-husband had
S6: been stalking me. And so when I left his home,
S6: I called this man. His name was Andrew. I called Andrew,
S6: and I said, can I come by your house and
S6: talk to you just for a minute. It was like
S6: 9:00 at night and I, you know, talked to him
S6: about the conversation my ex-husband and I had had. I
S6: said he said he might have to come talk to you.
S6: And I said, I am so sorry, but I hope
S6: he's not going to embarrass me. And little did I know,
S6: within 24 hours Andrew was going to be not just
S6: fighting for me, but he was going to actually be
S6: fighting for his life.
S1: Oh my word, what a place to take a break. Kimberly.
S1: The book we're talking about is going to be called
S1: it is called. We're going to be talking about the
S1: book in a bit. It's healing from life's deepest hurts,
S1: reclaiming your life after grief, loss or trauma. And I
S1: want you to hear Kimberly's story because, again, if God
S1: can work in for and through Kimberly, he can do
S1: it in your life as well. So there's obviously much
S1: more to this story, and we'll continue right after the break.
S1: God uses so much in the world around us to
S1: point to him. Our sense of wonder is really about
S1: knowing him. That's why I've chosen. Have you ever wondered,
S1: as this month's Truth tool? This book is for all
S1: who have looked up at a million stars in the
S1: night sky and just wondered, ask for your copy of.
S1: Have you ever wondered when you give a gift of
S1: any amount to in the market, call 877 Janet 58.
S1: That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market
S1: with Janet Parshall. We are visiting with Kimberly Hauer, who's
S1: a licensed therapist specializing in trauma recovery, and she's written
S1: the book healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaim Your Life
S1: After Grief, loss, or Trauma. And I want to pick
S1: up your story exactly where you left off. 23 years.
S1: Married to a man. Pattern of infidelity 2013. It's a reality.
S1: You decide to divorce him. You say, I'm going to
S1: just be a mom for four years. You do that,
S1: you meet a man named Andrew and that four year period. Kimberly.
S1: Were you aware at all? And you said this in
S1: our last segment together that he had been stalking you?
S1: You'd stayed in contact because you said you talked about
S1: having conversations about the kids, but did you know it
S1: was going beyond the conversations with the kids that he
S1: was actually aware of? The fact that you were dating
S1: this man named Andrew?
S6: Well, I assume now that my children must have said, hey,
S6: mom is dating somebody because my children saw their dad.
S6: But during that four years, it was a friendly divorce.
S6: It was, you know, there there was no, you know,
S6: fighting between us. There was no I had absolutely no
S6: idea he was stalking me.
S1: Wow. Unbelievable. So you have Andrew. The the ex says
S1: I want to connect with you and you're not interested.
S1: You say you've moved on. You suggest that he should
S1: move on. Moving on doesn't happen. What does happen?
S6: That's right. Well, he told me he was going to
S6: go to have a talk with Andrew, and I warned
S6: Andrew because I didn't want him to scare Andrew away. Um,
S6: and so I just said, would you fight for me?
S6: And Andrew said, yes, I would fight for you. And
S6: when I asked him why, he said, because you're worth it.
S6: And so when I left Andrew's home, it was probably
S6: 930 at night. I hadn't been there very long, but
S6: I went home, got in bed. I was living by
S6: myself and something prompted me on the inside and it said,
S6: lock your bedroom door. I had no reason to. I
S6: was not scared. I, you know, obviously I locked my
S6: house door, but it was not my practice to lock
S6: my bedroom door. But I got up, I locked the
S6: bedroom door, got back in bed, and I fell asleep.
S6: And at 230 in the morning, I woke up to
S6: the sound of my bedroom door crashing down off the hinges.
S6: My ex-husband had broken into my home. He was intoxicated.
S6: He had a gun in his hand. And for the
S6: next four hours I, I went through four hours of assault.
S6: And when those four hours were done, he told me
S6: that as punishment for ruining his life, he was going
S6: to kidnap me and he was going to make me
S6: go with him to Andrew's house, and I was going
S6: to have to watch him murder Andrew. Mhm. And so I,
S6: you know, and I have to say that my, my
S6: therapeutic background actually really helped me stay calm through a
S6: lot of this because, because some things said, okay, you know,
S6: pay attention to what he's saying. And actually the very
S6: first thing he said to me when he broke into
S6: my bedroom was he told me he had come from
S6: killing my mother and father. Now, he had not, but
S6: I didn't know that. And so right away, my brain
S6: was just giving me orders. And I told myself, you
S6: can grieve that later. For right now, just pay attention
S6: to his words. And then I prayed, God, keep me
S6: alive for my children because they're going to need me.
S6: So he he kidnapped me and I went with him
S6: at gunpoint to Andrew's house. When we got there, I
S6: watched as he reached into the back seat, got a
S6: gun loaded up with some bullets, and he looked over
S6: at me and he said, now you can go do
S6: whatever you need to do. And he left the keys
S6: in the ignition of the vehicle. And so I watched
S6: as he mounted the three steps going up to Andrew's house. Um,
S6: there was a lead glass door, a big oval, you know,
S6: lead glass window in the front of the door. And
S6: I heard three gunshots. And I knew there was no
S6: way Andrew was going to survive this. So I jumped
S6: into the the past or not the passenger, the driver's
S6: side of the vehicle. And I escaped to a 24
S6: hour supercenter. Ran in, screamed call 911. And I was
S6: taken to a warehouse to wait for a police officer
S6: in an ambulance to come and get me. And when
S6: the police officer came, he said, okay, follow me. And
S6: I told him, I said, I need to go to
S6: that vehicle that I came in and I need to
S6: get my cell phone because I wanted to call my family.
S6: I wanted to let them know what had happened so
S6: they didn't see it on the news. And when I
S6: went to the passenger door of the vehicle and I
S6: opened the door, my ex-husband was sitting behind the steering wheel.
S6: He had walked the the 4 to 6 blocks and
S6: and he had a gun pointed at me. And so
S6: within just moments I had, you know, a human shield
S6: of police around me. And my ex-husband was apprehended. I
S6: was taken to an emergency room where, you know, for
S6: the next 4 to 6 hours, I was, you know,
S6: went through exam after exam, question after question. But during
S6: that time, I did learn that Andrew had been shot
S6: ten times. And I learned that because his adult son
S6: I had met, he had three children and I had
S6: met one of his children. His adult son called my
S6: phone who my adult daughter answered and he said, hey,
S6: we wish your mom the best. Our dad is touch
S6: and go in and out of surgeries, but we really
S6: think they need to go their opposite ways. And so
S6: I couldn't find Andrew. He was under an assumed name
S6: in the hospital. And so I you know, I left
S6: the emergency room that day not knowing if I'd ever
S6: see Andrew again.
S1: Wow. And did you?
S6: I did. It was about six weeks, 4 to 6 weeks.
S6: And I was sitting outside. I went and I lived
S6: at my uncle and aunt's house that summer they were
S6: going to Canada. And they had a bigger, a beautiful
S6: big pergola in the backyard. So I would spend every morning,
S6: you know, at that pergola. And about 4 to 6
S6: weeks after everything happened, I saw I looked down at
S6: my phone and there was a Facebook Messenger message. And
S6: it was from Andrew because his kids had taken my
S6: phone number out of his phone. And so all his
S6: message said was, hey, I'm alive. And I thought, how
S6: do you respond to that? And I said, you know,
S6: I am so glad. And I went on to explain
S6: how sorry I was about the things that had happened.
S6: But I wanted him to know that I had not
S6: led my ex-husband to his home. I was not a
S6: part of that. And he was getting ready to go
S6: in for a surgery. And I said, can I come
S6: see you? And he said, no, I need to get
S6: through this surgery and I will contact you after the weekend.
S6: And he ended his text with words, take care. And
S6: I thought, what does take care mean?
S1: And again, what a place to take a break. Kimberly's
S1: new book is called healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming
S1: Your Life After Grief, loss, or Trauma. Now you understand
S1: the importance of Kimberly sharing her story. If she has
S1: gone through all of this and yet she can turn
S1: around and counsel other people, that there is a way
S1: to reclaim your life when horrific things like the what,
S1: like what she's describing have taken place and there's hope
S1: for you. Whatever your circumstances are. So we're going to
S1: take a break and come right back and find out
S1: the rest of the story. And then you're going to
S1: be encouraged to discover that there is a way to
S1: just do that. Reclaim your life after whatever trauma you've
S1: gone through back after this. Kimberly Hara is with us,
S1: author of the book healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming
S1: Your Life After Grief, loss, or Trauma. It adds gravitas,
S1: does it not? To what Kimberly has written in her
S1: book because of what she's gone through. So take care.
S1: Our Andrews last words to you as he sends this
S1: text message, this messenger message to you. He's about to
S1: go into surgery again, and it would be real normal,
S1: it seems to me to be able to say, take
S1: care is a sign off. Don't contact me again. What happened?
S6: You know, I was worried. It was. Well, I waited
S6: for several days and I got another Facebook Messenger message
S6: and it said a visit would be nice, and he
S6: was still in the hospital. But he said, you've got
S6: to come when my kids aren't here. So here I am,
S6: 50 years old. He's 53 and we are sneaking around
S6: adult children. And so I went up to his hospital
S6: room and I slowly opened the door, and I saw
S6: him there, and I looked at him and I said, Andrew,
S6: where does this leave us? And he said, I don't know.
S6: He said, I have seen the felony counts against, you know,
S6: your ex-husband. I know what happened to you and you
S6: are really going to be messed up. And he goes,
S6: I know what happened to me. He goes, I was
S6: shot ten times and I'm going to be really messed up.
S6: And something just came over me and I shook my
S6: finger in his face and I said, Andrew Harr, you
S6: will never meet another woman like me. And four weeks
S6: later we were engaged and four months later we were married.
S6: And that has now been eight years, and they have
S6: been some of the sweetest years of my life.
S1: Wow. Unbelievable. So many questions. Number one, tell me about
S1: your ex. What was his sentence? And is he in
S1: prison today?
S6: He is. My ex-husband was sentenced to prison for a
S6: very long time. Um, I usually try to be really careful.
S6: Only tell my story. Um, not somebody else's perspective. But
S6: he did go away for a very long time where
S6: I'm not going to have to worry about it.
S1: Excellent. And this is a question about trauma. Because if
S1: you think that this perpetrator is part of your future
S1: because the door could open. Is that a fear that
S1: has been eradicated based on the sentence?
S6: Um, you know, I think that when you are traumatized,
S6: I think there is always the what ifs because none
S6: of us control the justice system. You know, we see
S6: people getting out, we see people on parole. We see,
S6: you know, there's so much unknown. And I think it's
S6: really about we have no control. And so when trauma happens,
S6: it really it sends such a sense of powerlessness in
S6: anyone affected by trauma. so that powerlessness is something that
S6: you feel for a very long time, and you really
S6: just have to work through that, remind yourself of what
S6: you can control. And and that's a part of the healing.
S1: Wow. How did you and Andrew handle the adult children's objections?
S1: Because they were the one who said, in the first place,
S1: you go your way, he's going his.
S6: Yes. You know, it's I had not met two of
S6: his children, and so I can't blame them. They probably
S6: thought that this is something from, like a Jerry Springer show.
S6: You know, our dads dated somebody for four weeks, and
S6: then he's shot ten times. And so I totally understood
S6: where they were coming from. But when I went to
S6: see Andrew in the hospital, his one son did come up.
S6: And then his other kids were coming back into town.
S6: And I think when they saw how happy their dad was,
S6: they actually accepted me very graciously. And we have we
S6: have a beautiful family with we've blended his three children,
S6: my four children, some of them are married, so we've
S6: got like 11 adult children and three grandchildren. We're a
S6: little bit like the Waltons.
S1: That's right. So which of the two of you says
S1: good night, John boy? You or Andrew?
S7: You know, usually.
S6: Usually it's me.
S7: Except I usually say. I usually say, are you sleepy? Yeah.
S1: Oh my word. So I have to ask you. And
S1: by the way, you said Jerry Springer. No, I'd say
S1: 2020 or Dateline NBC. That's much more like that. So
S1: my question to you is, where's your relationship with the
S1: Lord in all of this? Where was it in the
S1: first marriage? Where is it in the four years when
S1: you're separated, where is it when you're going through literally
S1: the valley of the shadow of death?
S7: Yes.
S6: You know, I asked Jesus in my heart when I
S6: was the ripe old age of five, and I have
S6: walked with the Lord my entire life. I was kind
S6: of like that goody goody goody, the good Christian that,
S6: you know, didn't didn't do anything really big. Like I
S6: didn't smoke, didn't drink, didn't. I mean, I thought, hey,
S6: I am like squeaky clean. But I knew, I knew
S6: that when everything happened, I had so many emotions. You know,
S6: I felt in one hand I felt abandoned by God
S6: because I was like, God, why would you let something
S6: like this happen? But then I also knew that I
S6: had to run to God, because if I only relied
S6: on myself, I was in trouble. And so my faith
S6: really was my anchor. Even in my first marriage, you know,
S6: faith was very important, which is one of the reasons
S6: I stayed as long as I did. I, you know,
S6: I think it's very often heard in the Christian world,
S6: you know, believe, believe, believe. God will restore. God will restore.
S6: And he does. And I do believe that. But we
S6: need more teaching on things like boundaries. And God doesn't
S6: want us in abusive, you know, or infidelity relationships. God
S6: can heal things, but you've got to have two people
S6: that want to make something work. So God has always
S6: been such a foundation. And you know, Janet, God was
S6: so there was such a beautiful moment in, um, right
S6: after I had gone through the four hours of assault,
S6: I was laying on my bed and I felt a
S6: presence in the room, and it was like it was
S6: a sad presence, but I just recognized that this had
S6: to be the presence of God. And in that moment,
S6: all fear left me. And it was you mentioned earlier,
S6: Psalm 23, the valley of the shadow of death. It
S6: says that God will be with us in it. And
S6: fear left me. And I knew in that moment that
S6: if I died, I would not have died alone, because
S6: I knew God was there holding my hand.
S1: There's that peace that passes understanding, not like the world gives,
S1: but the kind that Jesus himself gives. Kimberly Heyer is
S1: with us. Her book is called healing from Life's Deepest Hurts. Now,
S1: she not only wrote that book, if she's talking to
S1: us today, going through what all of us would universally
S1: acknowledge as some of life's deepest hurts. But she can
S1: put one foot in front of the other and with
S1: joy face tomorrow. So can you. We're going to tell
S1: you how when we get back. We live in complicated
S1: times and in the market. We're helping you interpret complex
S1: cultural issues through the lens of Scripture. Our team of
S1: partial partners is growing. And to say thank you, they
S1: receive exclusive information from me. In fact, I talked to
S1: you directly from my personal computer to yours by email.
S1: Become a partial partner today and you'll receive these exclusive benefits.
S1: Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the
S1: market with Janet Parshall. If you're just joining us, I'm
S1: so glad you're here, but I got to tell you something.
S1: You are going to want to hear the first half
S1: of this conversation, and you can do that. Just go
S1: to wherever you find your favorite podcast. Download in the
S1: market with Janet Parshall. Put in today's date and our
S1: conversation with Kimberly are absolutely riveting story, but a declaration
S1: of what trauma is, what it does, what it looks
S1: like and opens the door for healing. And Kimberly should
S1: know she's a survivor of domestic violence, a licensed professional counselor,
S1: a licensed marriage and family therapist, nearly two decades of
S1: experience helping others find healing and wholeness. She has an
S1: Ma in Marriage and Family Therapy from Southern Nazarene University,
S1: is a featured co-host on Oasis Radio Network, and her
S1: therapy practice is located in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where she inspires
S1: and helps others on a regular basis. Her brand new
S1: book is called healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming Your
S1: Life After Grief, loss, and Trauma. So, so many things
S1: running through my head after this story. Literally, it reads
S1: like a movie script, except it's reality. And who would
S1: have thought that a you'd deal with the trauma of infidelity?
S1: You make this tough choice. But a wise choice, I
S1: think in retrospect of saying for years, I'm just going
S1: to step away from any relationship. I'm going to be
S1: a mom. You meet this gentleman by the name of Andrew.
S1: Your ex goes after him, plugs him ten times, fighting
S1: for his life. Long story short, you and Andrew get
S1: engaged and married. You've been now married. Hence eight plus years.
S1: It would have been you had multiple opportunities in that
S1: story with so many layers to say I'm a victim.
S1: I want you to feel sorry for me. And this
S1: is how I'm going to identify, because we're all about
S1: self-identification these days. So, hey, why not? I'm going to
S1: be a victim now for the rest of my life.
S1: Why did you choose not to label yourself a victim?
S6: I think it's because I knew how important it is
S6: to heal. And where I identified as a victim, I
S6: identified as a victim in those, you know, six hours,
S6: seven hours that I went through. But when I went
S6: to the it was the victim witness center in my town,
S6: and I would always have to sign in on a
S6: piece of paper because it was a crime. And it
S6: would say, victim sign here. And there was a little
S6: red arrow where I was supposed to sign, and something
S6: would always not sit right with me because I knew
S6: that while I had been victimized, I did not want
S6: the label of this is this is the end of
S6: my story. And I knew that I didn't know how
S6: I was going to heal, but I knew I was
S6: making a decision that no matter what it took, I
S6: was going to heal. And and I think that that's
S6: really where so much of our healing begins is we
S6: don't know how we're going to heal, but we have
S6: to make that choice of, I know I want to heal.
S1: So it's a volitional act. You have the emotions. If
S1: you let your emotions lead, you could say, I'm going
S1: to stay in this victim position, but I'm going to
S1: choose not to identify myself that way.
S6: That's right. You know, the the day that I sat
S6: in the emergency room, um, I had a detective that
S6: was training another detective, and I met up with her
S6: maybe about a year later, and she asked me, and
S6: she said, Kim, do you remember what you said to
S6: me when you were sitting in that emergency room? And
S6: I said, no, I don't remember much. And she said,
S6: you looked at me and you said, I will not
S6: let this experience go to waste. I will be a
S6: better therapist because of it. And then my oldest daughter said, mom,
S6: do you remember what you said to me in that
S6: emergency room? And you have to understand, my face was bloodied,
S6: I was unrecognizable, and I said, no, I don't remember
S6: what I said. And she goes, mom, you looked at
S6: me and you said, promise me you will not let
S6: this make you bitter. And sitting in that emergency room,
S6: I didn't know how I was going to heal. I
S6: had a bunch of emotions, I was angry, I was scared,
S6: I was numb, but yet I knew. Whatever it is,
S6: I'm going to do the hard work to heal.
S1: Early on and right out of the gate.
S6: Early on, right out of the gate. And some of that,
S6: I think, probably does have to do with my experience
S6: as being a therapist. I have I have walked so
S6: many people through their own hard stories and and their
S6: trauma stories, and now it was me. Uh, but, you know,
S6: even on that day is and it it's really incongruent
S6: because it feels like I had all these feelings of
S6: anger and frustration and and fear. And yet I also
S6: had this knowledge that says, okay, but I want to
S6: heal from this. And that same day, my ex-husband, actually,
S6: after the four hours the intoxication was wearing off him,
S6: and he looked down into my bloodied face, and I
S6: think he recognized the gravity of what he had done.
S6: And he looked at me and he said, tell me
S6: the truth. I've gone too far. You could never forgive me.
S6: And I paused for a moment, and I knew that
S6: I did not want to be labeled as unforgiving and
S6: bitter and hurt and angry, and that wasn't going to
S6: be the end of my story. And so the very
S6: last words I ever spoke to my ex-husband were, I
S6: looked up into his face and I said, yes, you
S6: have gone too far. But I want you to know
S6: that I will forgive you. And those were the last
S6: things I ever said to him.
S1: Wow. I'm going to go back to that in a minute.
S1: But let me fast forward to Andrew. You know this
S1: in your world full well. So Andrew was traumatized. You
S1: were traumatized. How did you know? Being a good therapist.
S1: And I'm sure that you sift and wade and more importantly,
S1: prayed and prayed and prayed. How did you make sure,
S1: going forward in your relationship with Andrew, that this wasn't
S1: a relationship built on a trauma bond?
S6: You know, I think because when we first met each
S6: other in the four weeks before everything happened, we both
S6: knew that, you know, we were adults. We were in
S6: our 50s. We weren't looking to start a brand new
S6: family together, start careers. I mean, we had both been
S6: married over 20 years, and we just knew that this
S6: is what we both desired. So there was lots of
S6: opportunity in after the trauma for it to actually tear
S6: us apart. But we each you know, I had to
S6: do so much of the emotional healing, as did Andrew,
S6: but he had more physical healing because he underwent, I
S6: think it ended up being like 13 surgeries. So we
S6: both came from different places, but all I can say
S6: is the hand of God was on it. And and
S6: in the beginning I really I tried to take control.
S6: I can be a little bit of a control freak,
S6: and I tried telling the Lord what he needed to do,
S6: when he needed to do it and how he needed
S6: to do it. And I told him, I said, and
S6: it would make such a great testimony. And and then
S6: I would say, but, Lord, I'm going to trust you.
S6: And and when I really got real with that, I
S6: told the Lord, I'm scared to trust you. Because what
S6: if you don't give me what you want? What I want?
S6: And I got to a place where I said, Lord,
S6: I am so scared to trust you. But even that
S6: was a choice. It was not a feeling because I
S6: did not feel like trusting. I did not feel like surrendering.
S6: But it was a choice. And it was a little
S6: bit like David in Psalms, when he would make a
S6: declaration and he would say, bless the Lord, O my soul.
S6: I would tell myself, I am going to trust the
S6: Lord on this, and it doesn't mean I felt like it.
S6: And sometimes I had to tell myself 100 times a
S6: day I would have to say, okay, I'm I'm going
S6: to trust him. And then I try and take it
S6: back again and I'd remind myself, no, I am choosing.
S6: I am going to trust my Heavenly Father.
S1: Yeah. You know, let me underscore this because you've said
S1: it several times, and I think all of us need
S1: to remember this. I remember Dietrich Bonhoeffer when he was
S1: writing The Cost of Discipleship inside a prison camp where
S1: he would eventually lose his life, he said. You know,
S1: you can take away my friends. You can take away
S1: my family. You can take away my sustenance. You can
S1: take away everything, but you can never take away the
S1: freedom for me to choose my attitude and you. Early on,
S1: after you'd been brutalized in the ER face, unrecognizable, traumatized
S1: with a capital T 14 capital teas. By the way,
S1: you've been traumatized. And yet even in that space, you
S1: talked about forgiveness. Now, that doesn't happen coming out of
S1: your motions, because every single part of our ID says,
S1: I'm not going to forgive you at all. In fact,
S1: if anything, I want to lunge at you and take
S1: your throat out with my teeth. But you started making
S1: a volitional choice about forgiveness. You write in the book
S1: that forget about healing. If you don't have forgiveness in
S1: this mix, it's going to be an exercise in futility.
S1: Talk to me about that.
S6: Sure. Well, I think I actually had both of those feelings.
S6: I had the wanting to to strangle and, you know,
S6: I had all of those emotions. So I don't want
S6: to have any listeners think that I just decided, oh,
S6: I'm going to forgive. And it's going to be easy
S6: because I was I was so angry and I there
S6: was so many emotions that were hitting all at once.
S6: But there was a part of knowing I can't be
S6: led by my emotions because my emotions are up one day,
S6: down the next, up the next, and it's such a
S6: roller coaster. And when I made the decision to forgive,
S6: it doesn't mean that I felt it because I did
S6: not feel it. I was furious, I wanted my ex-husband
S6: in in jail that night. I wanted him to go
S6: to prison. But I will say that that night I.
S6: I knew I was going to forgive. I did not
S6: want to not forgive. And I prayed for my ex-husband
S6: that night. I prayed that he wouldn't be scared in jail,
S6: and I prayed that the angels would surround him and
S6: he would feel their presence. And not because I was
S6: in love with my ex-husband because I was not. Uh,
S6: but it was more, Lord, I'm just asking you where
S6: he's going. He's going to be gone a really long time.
S6: become real to him, because I knew God didn't love
S6: me any more than he loved my ex-husband. And that
S6: was really the first step, was saying, I don't know
S6: how I'm going to forgive, but I'm going to want
S6: to want to forgive. And and it's just that one
S6: baby step after another.
S1: Yeah, yeah. Exactly right. One baby step after another. It
S1: made me think, though, because. And I want to get
S1: deeper into the pragmatics of forgiveness. What does that look
S1: like when you put shoe leather into it? If your
S1: ex is in prison a long time has he reached
S1: out to you at all since? No. So good. I
S1: would think that would be a blessing from the Lord
S1: that there isn't even an attempt to contact you.
S6: Yeah. No, um, and I don't I don't question any
S6: of it. It is, you know, I don't even I
S6: don't think that there's even an opportunity that he could, um, but,
S6: you know, when you're talking about forgiveness, unforgiveness, when somebody
S6: holds unforgiveness, it's actually hurting ourselves, and it becomes like
S6: an umbilical cord that connects us with the person that
S6: hurt us. And so when we forgive, we're really doing
S6: it for ourselves.
S5: Yeah.
S1: When we come back, just linger a little bit longer,
S1: because this is the spinal column in this whole discussion
S1: is this idea of volitional forgiveness. What does that mean
S1: to say to your husband? You know, I pray for you.
S1: I'm going to ask God to forgive you for what
S1: you did. What does that mean in the pragmatics? Because
S1: for so many people, forgiveness sometimes equates the idea of
S1: an obliteration of the trauma that took place in the
S1: first place. How do you square all of that off?
S1: Kimberly Hauer's with us. Your book is called healing from
S1: Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming Your Life After Grief, loss, and Trauma.
S1: Back after this. Healing from Life's Deepest Hurts is the
S1: new book by Kimberly Hauer, who's a survivor of domestic
S1: violence as well as a licensed professional counselor. And we
S1: got to the point in our conversation where we recognized
S1: that healing is impossible without forgiveness. But it's not just
S1: the word. It's that transcendent recognition we have as followers
S1: of Christ that forgiveness has to be a part of
S1: this because Christ directs us to be able to do that.
S1: But now that's I understand that vertically, but horizontally I
S1: have to put shoe leather into this. What does that
S1: look like in its application?
S6: Yeah. You know, I think that forgiveness, first of all,
S6: you mentioned this earlier is lots of times we don't
S6: forgive or we don't want to forgive because we don't
S6: understand what forgiveness is. Forgiveness does not mean what happened
S6: was okay. Forgiveness does not mean I have to be
S6: in a relationship. It does not mean a restoration of
S6: a relationship. Forgiveness is really more about giving up that
S6: right to be right. It's about not seeking revenge and punishment.
S6: And it's it's really again, I keep saying that choice,
S6: but it's so important that so often people think I
S6: have to feel like I want to forgive. And in
S6: the beginning, in the beginning, I would, you know, I
S6: would say out loud, I choose to forgive. I choose
S6: to forgive. And one of the practical things we can
S6: do is when our brain wants to replay everything that happened,
S6: where we ruminate on it, and we stir up the
S6: anger and we stir it up, that actually keeps it going.
S6: And so when we can actually catch those thoughts and say,
S6: you know what? Hey, it wasn't fair. It wasn't okay.
S6: But I'm choosing to make a choice to not seek revenge,
S6: not seek punishment. And I'm going to turn that over
S6: to my Heavenly Father, because you know what? You used
S6: the word before about compassion. And you know, when Jesus
S6: was hanging on the cross, he could have said all
S6: those same things. It's not fair. I didn't do anything
S6: to deserve this. And yet he gave us an example
S6: of how to forgive. He says, bless those that curse you.
S6: Not blame those. And so it is a it is
S6: a walking out. It's like the layers of an onion.
S6: It is. You know what? Today I'm going to walk
S6: through forgiveness. And tomorrow, when I remember it and I
S6: want to get stirred up, I'm going to forgive again
S6: for the same thing. And I'm going to do that
S6: until I get to that bottom layer. And when my
S6: brain reminds me, the pain isn't there.
S1: Great word of encouragement. Thank you for that. Let me
S1: ask you about a secondary component that I think is
S1: absolutely essential if there's going to be healing, and that
S1: is this idea of trust. But trust can't be demanded.
S1: It has to be earned. Now, again, we could look
S1: at this vertically and horizontally. Let me start vertically first.
S1: How does one put their trust back in God? Because
S1: the heart cry whenever they're suffering is almost always for
S1: every one of us. Why, God? Why me? Why didn't
S1: you do something? So how do we rebuild the trust
S1: with God?
S6: Yeah. You know, I think that one of the beautiful
S6: things about the relationship with the Lord is that he
S6: lets us come to him with all of our emotions,
S6: including anger, frustration, our but wise. It's not fair. And
S6: he doesn't chastise us for it. He actually welcomes us.
S6: And in that process, when we run to him, and
S6: we even sometimes need to forgive God. Not that God
S6: needs our forgiveness, but sometimes we need to release him
S6: from our expectations of what he should or shouldn't have done.
S6: And I like to give an example of of kind
S6: of trust, because I am often asked, why does God
S6: allow bad things to happen? And I don't have some
S6: cookie cutter answer for that. But I'm reminded of when
S6: my middle daughter, I took her for her immunizations before
S6: she went to kindergarten. This is, you know, almost 30
S6: years ago. And she looked up at me with crocodile tears.
S6: And she kind of was like, mom, why are you
S6: letting this happen? This is this is painful. And I
S6: remember looking in her eyes saying, look into my eyes.
S6: I am not going anywhere. I am right here. Hold
S6: my hand. You are not going through this alone. And
S6: I think that when we allow ourselves to be honest
S6: with God in our struggle and we allow ourselves to
S6: feel that wooing of him, it's like he is saying,
S6: look into my eyes, hold my hand tight. I am
S6: not going anywhere. I am your ABBA father. And so
S6: some of that is it. You know, in the very
S6: beginning I told the Lord, I am so empty I
S6: can't even pray. And those first few days I laid
S6: face down on a cement floor under a pergola. And
S6: I said, Lord, I know in Zephaniah there's a scripture
S6: that says, you sing over us. And I said, I
S6: am asking you to sing life back into my body,
S6: sing life back into me, because I don't have words.
S6: And little by little It's like I would let praise
S6: and worship music, the words. I just let it become
S6: a prayer and fill me up and. And rather than
S6: taking our anger out at God and running away, it's
S6: really going to him and letting him be our shelter
S6: and doing it in. It's not a fast process. It's
S6: just saying, Lord, I'm just showing up. I may be mad,
S6: but I'm showing up.
S1: Wow. What do you say to the person? And you're
S1: talking to an awful lot of people right now, Kimberly.
S1: What about that person who's listening that says, well, I'm
S1: beyond God's healing. You don't understand how deep and dark
S1: and awful this is. And perhaps it's something that they
S1: experienced 30 years ago, and they've been dragging it like
S1: a backpack full of boulders for their life, thinking that
S1: somehow if they just don't identify it, if they just
S1: don't tackle it, if they don't deal with it, if
S1: they leave it in their emotional closet and deadbolt the door,
S1: they can just get on with life. Talk to that person.
S1: What would you say?
S6: Sure. You know, I think when we deadbolt that and
S6: keep it private where nobody can see it. Shame wants
S6: to come in, and I like to say when you
S6: take the word shame apart, the first two letters of
S6: shame are s-h, which is sh. It's about secrets. The
S6: first four letters are sham, which are lies. And that's
S6: what the devil wants. He wants us to isolate ourselves
S6: so that we believe his lies. We partner with his
S6: lies about how bad we are or how awful things are.
S6: Or our life will never get better. And there is
S6: no person that is beyond the reach of Jesus. There
S6: is no story too hard that God can't redeem. And
S6: I like to say I felt so much in the
S6: early days. I felt like I was Humpty Dumpty that
S6: had fallen off the wall. All the king's horses, all
S6: the king's men couldn't put me back together again. But
S6: then I went to the King of kings. And the
S6: King of kings is a master at making beauty from
S6: our ashes.
S1: What a note to end this on. First step toward healing.
S1: I've got about 15 seconds left. Kimberly, what do you
S1: say to the person who says, okay, I'm really resonating
S1: with what you're saying? What's my first move? What's my
S1: first step? What do I do?
S6: Yeah. Just begin. Begin. Take those small steps. Take care
S6: of your body, get in community. Get a trusted person
S6: that can help walk beside you so you're not isolated.
S6: You're not alone. And just know that healing is possible
S6: and it is available for everyone.
S1: Amen and exclamation point, Kimberly. Thank you for a tremendous
S1: hour of encouragement. Let me tell my friends again. The
S1: book is called healing from Life's Deepest Hurts Reclaiming Your
S1: Life After Grief, loss, or Trauma. And if God can
S1: do that after you've just heard Kimberly's story for her. Oh,
S1: he can do the same and more for you as well.
S1: Check out the book, it's available on our information page.
S1: You can click on through and find where you can
S1: get your own copy. In the meantime, Kimberly, thank you
S1: for a wonderful conversation. Lord bless you friends. We'll see
S1: you next time.