1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,320 S1: Welcome to our Monday edition of Chris Fabry Live. Another 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,000 S1: conversation from the heart to the heart for the heart. 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,680 S1: This is going to be good because I have learned 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,000 S1: to listen to a few people who say, you really 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,320 S1: need to talk with this guest. And, uh, someone said 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,759 S1: that to me, our friend Rosie, Doctor Rosalee De rosette, 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,920 S1: who could not stop saying great things about a book 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,080 S1: she had read titled A Teachable Spirit. Doctor AJ Swoboda 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,400 S1: is standing by today at the radio backyard fence. Let 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,960 S1: me thank some people before we get started. Ryan McConaughey, 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,280 S1: who is doing all things technical. Trish is our producer. 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,720 S1: Is Josh back? Is Josh answering today? Yes. Yay! There's 13 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,840 S1: tall Josh. I see you and Lisa's hanging around to 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,400 S1: thank you for your support of the back fence as well. 15 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,560 S1: I want to mention friends and partners here who contribute 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,520 S1: to this program. I learned, as many of you did 17 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,400 S1: on Saturday, that Robert Wolgemuth has died. He'd been asking 18 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:02,920 S1: you to pray for him over the last couple of weeks. 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,640 S1: And I was putting together a tribute program for him 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,199 S1: when I saw that news. Going back a dozen years 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,640 S1: or so, listening to some of the conversations that we've 22 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,080 S1: had through the years. And you're going to hear that 23 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,160 S1: tribute tomorrow here on the program. But as I listened, 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,160 S1: I was struck that we would not have had those 25 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,520 S1: conversations had it not been for the people who contributed 26 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,040 S1: through the years. And it's the same today. We are 27 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,200 S1: able to talk with Doctor Swoboda and other guests this 28 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,039 S1: week because of those who give and support us. So 29 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,720 S1: our thank you right now is Doctor Michael Rudnick's excellent 30 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,200 S1: little book, how should Christians Think about Israel? I'd love 31 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:42,800 S1: to send you a copy. We're going to hear from 32 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,280 S1: him on Thursday of this week. If you go to 33 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,800 S1: Chris Fabry lives, you can see how you can support 34 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,320 S1: us with a gift of any size. We'd love to 35 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,040 S1: send you that book by Doctor Rudnick. Or you can 36 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:59,160 S1: call 86695 Fabry. Either way, you'll get to us and 37 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:04,880 S1: you'll help continue the conversations. Chris Fabbri. Fabbri Chris Fabbri, 38 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:13,160 S1: Livorno or (866) 953-2279. Thank you for your support here in January. 39 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,959 S1: So Rosie said to me, you need to get Doctor 40 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,800 S1: Swoboda on. And I reached out to him in the 41 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,799 S1: fall and he had just taken on pastoral duties and 42 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,200 S1: he said, give me a few weeks to get used 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,680 S1: to the workload here. And so I said, absolutely, I 44 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,680 S1: know exactly I know exactly what you're talking about. He 45 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,640 S1: said yes to today and I'm so excited. And after 46 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,399 S1: picking up the book, I understand why Rosie was so excited. A.J. 47 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,400 S1: Swoboda is an associate professor of Bible and theology at 48 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,320 S1: Bushnell University, lead mentor for the Doctor of Ministry program 49 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,960 S1: on Spiritual Formation and Soul Care at Friends University, author 50 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,680 S1: of a number of books, The Gift of Thorns After 51 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:57,520 S1: Doubt the award winning, subversive, subversive Sabbath. He hosts the 52 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:03,639 S1: Slow Theology podcast, co-host that, and writes widely in the Substack. 53 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,959 S1: Low level theologian. A Teachable Spirit is our featured resource 54 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:14,440 S1: at Chris Fabry Live, subtitled The Virtue of Learning from strangers, enemies, 55 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,960 S1: and Absolutely Anyone. Doctor Swoboda, did I get most of 56 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,040 S1: what I just said about you, right or not? 57 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,880 S2: You got you got it right. The only thing you've 58 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,920 S2: left out is I'm a husband to my beautiful wife, Quinn. 59 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,160 S2: My son Elliot, who's 14, and we have 12 chickens, um, 60 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,480 S2: which is an important part of my, my biography that 61 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,320 S2: I really feel needs to be integrated into my public persona. 62 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,680 S1: That's definitely. Okay. So can you name all the chickens? 63 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,960 S2: Well, here's the deal. They're all Chris, if you can 64 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,800 S2: believe it. They're all named after Star Wars characters. So 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:54,920 S2: Princess Leia, egg, Han Solo, Chewbacca. Uh, I could go 66 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,080 S2: on and on, But. 67 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,040 S1: You're a man after my own heart. Because we have 68 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,800 S1: ten chickens. So between us, we have 22 chickens. You 69 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,280 S1: have one son? I have my wife and I have 70 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,320 S1: nine children. So it's like we're we're taking, yeah, taking 71 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,360 S1: series that populate the Earth kind of thing. So. But 72 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,839 S1: your chickens, your chickens are just laying eggs. Chickens. You 73 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,680 S1: don't kill them and and pluck them and eat them, 74 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:19,200 S1: do you? 75 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,320 S2: Uh, my wife made the decision one time to, uh, 76 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,080 S2: take one of our chickens lives. And that will be 77 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,360 S2: the last time that she undertakes that experience. Yep. We 78 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,760 S2: are merely at the egg level. No meat, just egg 79 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,440 S2: level with our chickens. 80 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,760 S1: My wife said to me over the Christmas break. She said, I, 81 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,720 S1: you know, they're getting older and, uh, you know, I 82 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,119 S1: think maybe we because we fed him really well, maybe 83 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,320 S1: we ought to. And it's like, uh, I grew up 84 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,919 S1: on a farm, so I, you know, I kind of know. 85 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,320 S1: I know what happens. Yeah. And so was it was it, 86 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,640 S1: you know, kind of the blood. Just the feeling that 87 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:54,799 S1: your wife didn't like. 88 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:00,600 S2: Uh, you know, some details just are best left off air. Um. 89 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,120 S2: I'll just. I'll just say that the experience of taking 90 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,120 S2: a chicken's life was a traumatic experience. And that will 91 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:09,440 S2: be the last time she does that. 92 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,960 S1: Yeah, well, God bless her. And God bless us, everyone. Uh, okay. 93 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,600 S1: So Rosie said you got to get him on. And 94 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,760 S1: she was so excited about this because she said, I 95 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,760 S1: have not found anything about this subject, any book that's 96 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,760 S1: written specifically about Teachability. And she said so. It was 97 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,800 S1: so refreshing. And as I read the book, I realized 98 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,160 S1: you you found the same thing. There's not a whole 99 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,400 S1: lot written out there at length on this, right? 100 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,640 S2: Yeah. So I remember, um, a long time ago, um, 101 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,200 S2: I was a brand new Christian. I met the Lord 102 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,320 S2: when I was 16, in high school, and one of 103 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,279 S2: the first books I was given was this book by 104 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,680 S2: called Spiritual Leadership by Sanders and, um, and he had 105 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,520 S2: this chapter in there about how, you know, a good 106 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,479 S2: spiritual leader is a teachable person. And I remember putting 107 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,400 S2: that in my back pocket and remembering that, and then 108 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,640 S2: later on kind of going back and trying to find 109 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,480 S2: more on it, and there's almost nothing written on it. However, 110 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,240 S2: I did find one obscure reference that goes all the 111 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,599 S2: way back to a sermon that was preached out of 112 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,400 S2: the book of Deuteronomy. Uh, the story of of Moses 113 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,200 S2: taking the tablets up the the the, the, the mountain 114 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,680 S2: where God was going to write on the tablets and 115 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,120 S2: the and the idea was the preacher was saying, we 116 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,680 S2: need to bring to God something that God can write on. 117 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,480 S2: And guess who it was? It was John Calvin. And 118 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,560 S2: guess what he called it? He called it. We need 119 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,000 S2: to cultivate a teachable spirit. And that is one of 120 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,719 S2: the earliest references that I can find to this topic. 121 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,479 S2: Very little has been written about it. 122 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,400 S1: What does it mean then having your heart open and 123 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,600 S1: being willing to let let God write on it. What 124 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,000 S1: does it mean to be teachable? 125 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,520 S2: Well, I mean, I think the the virtue of teachability in, 126 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,120 S2: in general, the virtue of teachability is that, I mean, 127 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,720 S2: in the end, here's what it's about. It's actually the 128 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:19,600 S2: practiced doctrine of sin. And what I mean by that is, 129 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,920 S2: you know, one of the core convictions of the Christian 130 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,440 S2: story of Christianity is that human beings are, you know, 131 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,640 S2: we're sinful, we're broken, we're depraved. We are human beings 132 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:37,679 S2: that are malformed and misshapen and teachability is the virtue 133 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,600 S2: of saying, you know, God, I'm incomplete and I am 134 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,040 S2: open to you reshaping me. Um, and so in the end, 135 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,720 S2: I mean, Calvin actually argued In that sermon, he argued 136 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:57,800 S2: that discipleship is the virtue of teachability. There's no distinction. 137 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,160 S2: There's no difference. To be a disciple is to be 138 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,559 S2: open to God, reshaping our lives. But what's so weird, Kris? 139 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,520 S2: And you would agree, I think so much of the 140 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,640 S2: church would. It feels so unteachable, unwilling, and open to 141 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,280 S2: being transformed in new ways. Um, and I think we 142 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,800 S2: need to bring that back to be teachable people. Jesus 143 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,880 S2: said that he would send the Holy Spirit who would 144 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,840 S2: lead us into all truth. Isn't that interesting? The spirit 145 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,120 S2: is described as a teacher and the teacher lives in us. 146 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,320 S2: It's such an interesting concept that the teacher is inside 147 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:34,760 S2: of us. 148 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,640 S1: I, uh, what you just said and and that the 149 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,680 S1: church is unteachable right now. Have you unpacked that in 150 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,600 S1: this hour? But the two words that came up as 151 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,690 S1: you were talking were humility that I think humility and 152 00:08:52,690 --> 00:08:58,410 S1: teachability are running along the same path. And opposite that 153 00:08:58,410 --> 00:09:01,970 S1: or away from that is control. And I think a 154 00:09:01,970 --> 00:09:05,170 S1: lot of my Christian, a lot of my Christian life 155 00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:09,210 S1: has been lived trying to figure God out or know 156 00:09:09,210 --> 00:09:12,810 S1: the answers to the questions so I could win the 157 00:09:12,809 --> 00:09:17,130 S1: argument with whomever is in my tribe or on the 158 00:09:17,130 --> 00:09:20,089 S1: outside looking in. I want to win the argument because 159 00:09:20,090 --> 00:09:23,370 S1: I want to be right and I want. And that's 160 00:09:23,370 --> 00:09:29,650 S1: just element and exhibition of control in my life. And 161 00:09:29,770 --> 00:09:34,410 S1: so it's almost like Teachability is opening your hands and 162 00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:37,970 S1: letting go of the control, of needing to be right 163 00:09:37,970 --> 00:09:40,290 S1: about everything so that you. Because if you have to 164 00:09:40,290 --> 00:09:42,489 S1: be right about everything, you can't learn anything. 165 00:09:43,130 --> 00:09:46,530 S2: Yeah. Yes. So I want to be very clear because 166 00:09:46,570 --> 00:09:50,010 S2: I don't want I don't want this conversation or nor 167 00:09:50,010 --> 00:09:53,330 S2: my book to lead to is this sort of view 168 00:09:53,330 --> 00:09:56,610 S2: towards truth that says, you know, to be a Christian 169 00:09:56,610 --> 00:09:59,010 S2: really means to give up your deepest held values and 170 00:09:59,010 --> 00:10:02,130 S2: just receive what the world has to say. No, no, no, no, no, 171 00:10:02,170 --> 00:10:04,890 S2: that is not even close to what what what we're 172 00:10:04,929 --> 00:10:08,490 S2: what we're talking about here. Um, you know, to be 173 00:10:08,490 --> 00:10:13,290 S2: a Christian is to have deeply held convictions about the 174 00:10:13,290 --> 00:10:16,370 S2: things of God. I don't want anybody listening to this 175 00:10:16,929 --> 00:10:20,050 S2: to go from this and begin to question whether the 176 00:10:20,050 --> 00:10:22,689 S2: Trinity is reality or not. You know, whether Scripture is 177 00:10:22,690 --> 00:10:26,330 S2: trustable or not hold deeply to those things. But as C.S. 178 00:10:26,330 --> 00:10:29,490 S2: Lewis would say, when you have those deep convictions, when 179 00:10:29,490 --> 00:10:32,410 S2: you have those deep pieces of knowledge, it actually opens 180 00:10:32,410 --> 00:10:35,010 S2: you up to being able to learn, because you can 181 00:10:35,010 --> 00:10:38,690 S2: discern what is truth and falsehood. And the illustration that 182 00:10:38,690 --> 00:10:41,610 S2: I like to use is the illustration of, um, there 183 00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:45,570 S2: was this really famous, uh, study done years ago about 184 00:10:45,690 --> 00:10:50,569 S2: playgrounds and the the the study was about how kids 185 00:10:50,570 --> 00:10:53,570 S2: respond differently when they have a fence or if they don't. 186 00:10:53,809 --> 00:10:55,730 S2: And they did this study where they put a playground 187 00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:57,449 S2: out and they let these all these kids go play 188 00:10:57,450 --> 00:10:59,610 S2: in the playground, but there was no fence. And it 189 00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:01,770 S2: turns out that the kids, when there was no fence, 190 00:11:01,929 --> 00:11:04,890 S2: they stuck to the playground and they wouldn't explore out. 191 00:11:04,890 --> 00:11:07,650 S2: But the minute that they put up a fence, the 192 00:11:07,650 --> 00:11:11,010 S2: kids explored the entire playground up to the fence because 193 00:11:11,010 --> 00:11:15,490 S2: there were boundaries. So I think theology, I think deeply 194 00:11:15,490 --> 00:11:19,570 S2: held convictions, are actually the thing that give us parameters 195 00:11:19,770 --> 00:11:23,970 S2: about being creative and being learners of all the things 196 00:11:23,970 --> 00:11:25,850 S2: that we have to learn. Yes. 197 00:11:26,050 --> 00:11:28,010 S1: And that's why you say Christians should be the most 198 00:11:28,010 --> 00:11:31,329 S1: teachable people in the world. They can and should learn 199 00:11:31,330 --> 00:11:35,690 S1: from anyone and everyone. But we're not doing real well 200 00:11:35,690 --> 00:11:38,650 S1: with that. And if you feel like you're looking in 201 00:11:38,650 --> 00:11:40,970 S1: the mirror at yourself and you say, you know what, 202 00:11:41,010 --> 00:11:43,330 S1: I this is, this is where I am right now. 203 00:11:43,490 --> 00:11:48,050 S1: If you see people as your enemy and as people 204 00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:51,730 S1: that you want to defeat with their ideas, so that 205 00:11:51,730 --> 00:11:54,610 S1: you can marginalize them and get them away from you. 206 00:11:54,610 --> 00:11:57,370 S1: I want you to hear what AJ Swoboda has to 207 00:11:57,410 --> 00:12:01,209 S1: say today at the radio backyard fence a teachable spirit, 208 00:12:01,570 --> 00:12:05,370 S1: the virtue of learning from strangers, enemies. How do we 209 00:12:05,370 --> 00:12:09,290 S1: do that? And absolutely anyone. That's our featured resource today 210 00:12:09,770 --> 00:12:17,490 S1: at Chris. Chris Fabry lives more straight ahead on Moody Radio. 211 00:12:27,530 --> 00:12:33,050 S1: Doctor AJ Swoboda has written a teachable spirit the virtue 212 00:12:33,050 --> 00:12:37,490 S1: of learning from strangers, enemies, and absolutely anyone featured resource 213 00:12:37,490 --> 00:12:45,650 S1: today at Chris Fabry Lives. Chris Fabry live. Oh. I was, uh, 214 00:12:45,690 --> 00:12:50,650 S1: captivated by this in a story about a personal struggle 215 00:12:50,650 --> 00:12:53,890 S1: that you had, AJ. And that is, uh, you write 216 00:12:53,890 --> 00:12:57,170 S1: when we are shaped by shame, we use the same 217 00:12:57,210 --> 00:13:02,089 S1: tools on others. Every single semester. I see an aversion 218 00:13:02,090 --> 00:13:06,170 S1: in my students to being teachable. Can you unpack that 219 00:13:06,170 --> 00:13:06,730 S1: for me? 220 00:13:07,970 --> 00:13:10,410 S2: Yeah. I mean, actually, part of part of this is 221 00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:14,010 S2: a story that, um, a story from a couple of 222 00:13:14,010 --> 00:13:17,490 S2: years ago, which was actually the reason why, um, I 223 00:13:17,530 --> 00:13:22,290 S2: wrote the book was, um, I saw the story, uh, on, 224 00:13:22,330 --> 00:13:24,969 S2: on the internet about a woman who, about 25 year 225 00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:28,130 S2: old woman who had been caught up in a kind 226 00:13:28,130 --> 00:13:34,250 S2: of political scandal, and she, um, was sent she was caught, 227 00:13:34,250 --> 00:13:38,090 S2: and she was she was in court and she was 228 00:13:38,130 --> 00:13:41,370 S2: young political activist, and she got caught and she was 229 00:13:41,370 --> 00:13:47,250 S2: giving basically her statement in court. And, um, and she 230 00:13:47,250 --> 00:13:49,730 S2: broke down in the, in the court and just apologized 231 00:13:49,730 --> 00:13:52,449 S2: and realized what she did was wrong. I mean, very 232 00:13:52,450 --> 00:13:56,050 S2: rarely in our culture anymore do we see people embody, 233 00:13:56,370 --> 00:13:59,170 S2: you know, brokenness. And and she was like, I was wrong. 234 00:13:59,170 --> 00:14:01,449 S2: I want to learn from this. Da da da da da. 235 00:14:02,130 --> 00:14:04,850 S2: And I was so hopeful because we never see that 236 00:14:04,850 --> 00:14:08,250 S2: in our culture. It's just so rare. It's always everybody 237 00:14:08,250 --> 00:14:10,969 S2: else's fault. So I was sort of like, oh, this 238 00:14:10,970 --> 00:14:13,329 S2: is a breakthrough in our culture. And that night I 239 00:14:13,330 --> 00:14:15,410 S2: did the dumbest thing one could do. I got on 240 00:14:15,410 --> 00:14:20,729 S2: social media, and what I saw was an entire culture 241 00:14:21,410 --> 00:14:25,610 S2: just tarring and feathering this woman for her willingness to 242 00:14:25,650 --> 00:14:30,770 S2: be wrong and just shame upon shame. We told her so. 243 00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:32,690 S2: She shouldn't have done this. She's a horrible person, all 244 00:14:32,690 --> 00:14:35,370 S2: these sorts of things. And it dawned on me as 245 00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:39,850 S2: I was watching that that's why we're so afraid of 246 00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:43,370 S2: ever being wrong is because the minute we are wrong, 247 00:14:43,370 --> 00:14:47,130 S2: it's weaponized against us and we're shamed. When in reality 248 00:14:47,130 --> 00:14:51,570 S2: this woman should have been celebrated for her humility. Instead, 249 00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:57,290 S2: her humility was weaponized. I suspect we are a culture 250 00:14:58,090 --> 00:15:01,290 S2: that demands people to repent, but the minute they do, 251 00:15:01,330 --> 00:15:04,690 S2: we shame them. And I think it's creating a world 252 00:15:05,010 --> 00:15:07,770 S2: where nobody wants to be wrong about anything, because we're 253 00:15:07,770 --> 00:15:11,530 S2: terrified of being tarred and feathered. The church should never 254 00:15:11,530 --> 00:15:14,970 S2: tar and feather people who have the humility to recognize 255 00:15:14,970 --> 00:15:19,050 S2: their own sin and brokenness. Um, and I think that 256 00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:22,610 S2: we have the spiritual resources to sidestep the way our 257 00:15:22,610 --> 00:15:24,410 S2: culture is handling these sorts of things. 258 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:26,330 S3: But you have faced this. 259 00:15:26,370 --> 00:15:29,170 S1: And there was a funny story about building a treehouse 260 00:15:29,170 --> 00:15:32,970 S1: and being asked to go get a Phillips screwdriver, and 261 00:15:32,970 --> 00:15:39,130 S1: then then crying when you realize I don't have what 262 00:15:39,250 --> 00:15:42,810 S1: it takes to even find to know the difference between 263 00:15:42,810 --> 00:15:46,170 S1: a flathead and a Phillips. And for many, you know, 264 00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:50,850 S1: especially a man, you know, and, and and I don't 265 00:15:50,850 --> 00:15:52,770 S1: want to be sexist about that because there are a 266 00:15:52,770 --> 00:15:55,330 S1: lot of women who are very, very handy. But if 267 00:15:55,330 --> 00:15:57,130 S1: you're a man and you don't know what a Phillips 268 00:15:57,130 --> 00:16:03,130 S1: screwdriver is, you, you're you're at the bottom of the hill. Right. 269 00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:06,850 S2: Yeah. I mean, the opening story that I tell in 270 00:16:06,850 --> 00:16:11,970 S2: the book is about it's my Phillips head screwdriver story of, um. 271 00:16:12,130 --> 00:16:14,530 S2: You know, I'm not a very handy person. Actually, my 272 00:16:14,530 --> 00:16:17,010 S2: wife is the handy one in our home, and she's 273 00:16:17,010 --> 00:16:18,890 S2: the one who builds stuff. And I'm the one who 274 00:16:18,890 --> 00:16:21,890 S2: likes to write and read. And, you know, I'm the 275 00:16:21,930 --> 00:16:24,130 S2: kind of guy who doesn't get in the sun, and 276 00:16:24,130 --> 00:16:27,370 S2: she loves to be outside. And, um, so I don't, 277 00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:29,250 S2: I don't, you know, I didn't have a dad that 278 00:16:29,250 --> 00:16:32,530 S2: taught me, um, what traditionally men are supposed to be 279 00:16:32,530 --> 00:16:34,530 S2: good at, which is building stuff. And she's in the 280 00:16:34,530 --> 00:16:37,010 S2: backyard building this treehouse for her son, who was five 281 00:16:37,010 --> 00:16:40,010 S2: at the time, and she calls me out to help. 282 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:42,650 S2: And she's holding up this two by four and she says, 283 00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:45,250 S2: can you go into the garage and get me a 284 00:16:45,250 --> 00:16:48,170 S2: Phillips head screwdriver? So I go into the garage and 285 00:16:48,170 --> 00:16:51,570 S2: I'm standing there looking for the screwdriver in this box, 286 00:16:51,970 --> 00:16:55,930 S2: and just out of nowhere I start to cry. And 287 00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:58,010 S2: it was this I almost felt like I was having 288 00:16:58,010 --> 00:17:01,010 S2: a mid-life crisis or something, and it dawned on me 289 00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:03,130 S2: I didn't know what a Phillips head screwdriver looked like. 290 00:17:04,090 --> 00:17:07,409 S2: And now I'm faced with the reality of having to 291 00:17:07,450 --> 00:17:10,010 S2: go back and tell my wife that I have absolutely 292 00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:14,610 S2: no idea what I'm doing, and I'm completely ashamed of it. Um, 293 00:17:14,850 --> 00:17:18,650 S2: I used that story as an illustration of what happens 294 00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:21,250 S2: to all of us in our life is that we 295 00:17:21,609 --> 00:17:25,170 S2: feel so much shame for the things that we are 296 00:17:25,170 --> 00:17:28,690 S2: told we are supposed to know, and in the end, 297 00:17:28,730 --> 00:17:32,050 S2: that shame keeps us from ever becoming teachable about those 298 00:17:32,050 --> 00:17:35,370 S2: very things. I see that with my Bible students. Students 299 00:17:35,369 --> 00:17:37,490 S2: who come in and feel like I'm supposed to know 300 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:40,130 S2: the whole Bible, but they realize they know almost nothing, 301 00:17:40,130 --> 00:17:43,490 S2: and then their ignorance keeps them from being teachable. I 302 00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:45,370 S2: want to. I think that we should break through those 303 00:17:45,369 --> 00:17:48,850 S2: sorts of fears, and never let shame keep us from 304 00:17:48,850 --> 00:17:51,889 S2: entering in and learning in those moments of vulnerability. 305 00:17:52,410 --> 00:17:53,530 S3: Do you think that part. 306 00:17:53,530 --> 00:17:57,130 S1: Of the emotion of that, of kind of the vulnerability, 307 00:17:57,170 --> 00:18:00,410 S1: even of telling that story, but the emotion of of 308 00:18:00,410 --> 00:18:05,530 S1: standing there was the lament of my dad. My dad 309 00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:08,209 S1: didn't show me this. He didn't tell me this. 310 00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:12,010 S2: Yeah. I was not sad that I didn't know what 311 00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:16,490 S2: a Phillips head screwdriver is. What that ignorant exposed for 312 00:18:16,490 --> 00:18:20,210 S2: me was immediately the sadness of what I did not 313 00:18:20,210 --> 00:18:24,090 S2: receive as a kid. I in the end, I think 314 00:18:24,090 --> 00:18:28,449 S2: more often than not, in most of our lives, when 315 00:18:28,450 --> 00:18:33,250 S2: we have our ignorance exposed about something, it more often 316 00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:40,410 S2: than not triggers Deeper sadness and resentment, frustration about who 317 00:18:40,410 --> 00:18:44,210 S2: we are as people. It's not just about the thing itself, 318 00:18:44,450 --> 00:18:47,770 S2: but it becomes almost in our own minds, a statement 319 00:18:47,770 --> 00:18:50,650 S2: of the kind of person that we are, that we're failures. 320 00:18:51,450 --> 00:18:54,170 S2: You know, it's interesting, Chris, the fascinating I write about 321 00:18:54,170 --> 00:18:56,850 S2: this in the book, the New Testament has a really 322 00:18:56,850 --> 00:19:01,449 S2: interesting word, uh, for, for, for this topic. And the 323 00:19:01,450 --> 00:19:07,170 S2: word is repentance in Greek. The word repentance, metanoia. It 324 00:19:07,170 --> 00:19:11,409 S2: means literally to change your mind. Metanoia to change your mind. 325 00:19:12,130 --> 00:19:15,490 S2: To be a Christian is to open yourself up to 326 00:19:15,530 --> 00:19:18,410 S2: letting God change your mind on things that you have 327 00:19:18,410 --> 00:19:22,209 S2: been dead set on. Um, and that's it's hard to 328 00:19:22,250 --> 00:19:27,129 S2: do because it means that you're going to need to change. Um, but, 329 00:19:27,170 --> 00:19:29,850 S2: you know, you can't be a disciple and remain the same. 330 00:19:29,850 --> 00:19:32,010 S2: You just can't. He's going to get into the things 331 00:19:32,010 --> 00:19:34,850 S2: in your life that he needs to teach you about. 332 00:19:36,330 --> 00:19:39,810 S1: One more thing about your dad, though. What did that 333 00:19:40,770 --> 00:19:44,210 S1: what did that experience then? I mean, did you ever 334 00:19:44,210 --> 00:19:46,689 S1: have a conversation with your dad about that? Did you 335 00:19:46,730 --> 00:19:49,010 S1: did you ever or did you have to come to 336 00:19:49,050 --> 00:19:51,490 S1: grips with that, you know, on your own? 337 00:19:52,090 --> 00:19:54,530 S2: Yeah. No, I mean, I mean, none of this is 338 00:19:54,530 --> 00:19:57,090 S2: intended to throw my father under under the bus. And 339 00:19:57,090 --> 00:20:00,290 S2: I honor my dad, and I love him deeply. Um, 340 00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:04,610 S2: but but as for all of us, often later on 341 00:20:04,609 --> 00:20:07,290 S2: in our life is where we begin to do the 342 00:20:07,330 --> 00:20:10,930 S2: work of looking at where we came from. You know, 343 00:20:10,970 --> 00:20:14,889 S2: there's this really interesting storyline in the Bible of people who, 344 00:20:14,930 --> 00:20:19,450 S2: immediately upon experiencing God, either they turn to the Lord, 345 00:20:19,450 --> 00:20:22,369 S2: they believe they have an experience of God, and the 346 00:20:22,369 --> 00:20:25,850 S2: next story is they go back to their hometown. So 347 00:20:26,130 --> 00:20:29,010 S2: you know Jesus the minute he's baptized by the spirit 348 00:20:29,010 --> 00:20:33,210 S2: in the Jordan River, he goes back to Nazareth. Uh, Saul. 349 00:20:33,210 --> 00:20:35,409 S2: When he turns to the Lord, he goes back to 350 00:20:35,450 --> 00:20:38,409 S2: Tarsus at by the end of the last chapter. Uh, 351 00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:41,090 S2: the demoniac in Mark five, Jesus sends back back to 352 00:20:41,130 --> 00:20:45,730 S2: his hometown, the Samaritan. John's gospel that when people experience God, 353 00:20:45,770 --> 00:20:48,169 S2: they immediately have to go back and deal with their hometown. 354 00:20:48,490 --> 00:20:51,210 S2: And I think that for for me, that has been 355 00:20:51,210 --> 00:20:54,409 S2: the case, that the more I've, I've walked with the Lord, 356 00:20:54,810 --> 00:20:57,770 S2: the more he's invited me to to deal with my 357 00:20:57,770 --> 00:21:00,410 S2: family of origin and to deal with my hometown and 358 00:21:00,410 --> 00:21:03,170 S2: to deal with where I came from. It didn't happen 359 00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:04,969 S2: in a moment. It's been a very long process, but 360 00:21:04,970 --> 00:21:07,730 S2: I think that's a part of our healing journey. Journey 361 00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:10,890 S2: is that is that Jesus helps us to uncover the 362 00:21:10,890 --> 00:21:13,210 S2: pain and the joy from the world that we were 363 00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:13,850 S2: raised in. 364 00:21:14,170 --> 00:21:17,770 S1: Doesn't that make you a better teacher than to be 365 00:21:17,810 --> 00:21:23,010 S1: able to exhibit the, uh, the pain, the fear to 366 00:21:23,050 --> 00:21:26,810 S1: to walk into that and to exhibit that in front 367 00:21:26,810 --> 00:21:27,730 S1: of your students? 368 00:21:28,170 --> 00:21:31,210 S2: Yeah. Well, you know, Chris, the the funny thing about 369 00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:33,290 S2: teaching right now, because I had the privilege of teaching 370 00:21:33,290 --> 00:21:36,050 S2: before all my students had internet in the classroom. But 371 00:21:36,050 --> 00:21:38,130 S2: what's weird now about being a teacher in the classroom 372 00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:40,250 S2: is all my students have in front of them computers 373 00:21:40,250 --> 00:21:42,290 S2: that have more information than I could ever cover in 374 00:21:42,290 --> 00:21:46,250 S2: the class. And it's it's terrifying because they they can 375 00:21:46,290 --> 00:21:48,930 S2: they can Google everything I'm saying to confirm if it's 376 00:21:48,930 --> 00:21:51,690 S2: right or not. And there will often be moments in 377 00:21:51,690 --> 00:21:54,330 S2: class when a student will raise their hand and say, 378 00:21:54,490 --> 00:21:57,489 S2: Doctor Swoboda, I think you're wrong about this. And in 379 00:21:57,490 --> 00:22:00,930 S2: those moments, my temptation is to want to double down 380 00:22:00,930 --> 00:22:03,969 S2: on something I'm probably wrong about because I want to 381 00:22:03,970 --> 00:22:07,210 S2: protect my ego. And I've actually come to the conclusion 382 00:22:07,369 --> 00:22:09,369 S2: that the greatest way I can teach my students to 383 00:22:09,369 --> 00:22:12,970 S2: be teachable is to be a teachable teacher, to be 384 00:22:13,010 --> 00:22:15,610 S2: a teacher who's humble enough to even recognize the way 385 00:22:15,609 --> 00:22:18,250 S2: that they've been wrong. Is there any. I'm not going 386 00:22:18,290 --> 00:22:20,450 S2: to teach them to be humble by being prideful. 387 00:22:20,770 --> 00:22:21,250 S1: Right. 388 00:22:21,290 --> 00:22:25,290 S2: I teach others to be teachable, by being teachable myself. Absolutely. 389 00:22:25,810 --> 00:22:28,449 S1: Does that go the same with parents and children, then? 390 00:22:30,530 --> 00:22:32,489 S2: You'd have to ask my 14 year old son if 391 00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:36,409 S2: I've done that very well. But I mean, our kids naturally, right? 392 00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:38,730 S2: Our kids. The people we pastor, the people we love, 393 00:22:38,770 --> 00:22:41,250 S2: the people we're leading in, our small group are leading. 394 00:22:41,290 --> 00:22:43,570 S2: I mean, the greatest impact we'll have on them is 395 00:22:43,570 --> 00:22:46,129 S2: very often not the stuff we say, but it's the 396 00:22:46,130 --> 00:22:49,010 S2: people that we are. Um, we pass along who we 397 00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:52,730 S2: are more than we pass along what we say. So, 398 00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:55,290 S2: you know, there's a part of, of of, of, of 399 00:22:55,330 --> 00:22:57,770 S2: learning that is caught, part of it is taught. And 400 00:22:57,770 --> 00:22:59,450 S2: I think one of the most important things we can 401 00:22:59,450 --> 00:23:02,970 S2: do as learners is try to surround ourselves with humble 402 00:23:02,970 --> 00:23:06,290 S2: Christians that are ongoing learners. And because if you surround 403 00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:11,450 S2: yourself with arrogant teachers who know everything, you'll probably become arrogant. 404 00:23:11,970 --> 00:23:12,330 S1: Hmm. 405 00:23:12,369 --> 00:23:16,490 S2: I mean, we become like the people who are around us. Um, 406 00:23:16,690 --> 00:23:18,690 S2: and so, so in a way, part of I think 407 00:23:18,730 --> 00:23:23,210 S2: being an ongoing learner is surrounding yourself with good teachers 408 00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:26,370 S2: who are not just teaching you the right info, but 409 00:23:26,369 --> 00:23:30,619 S2: are teaching you the right posture towards life. Some of 410 00:23:30,619 --> 00:23:33,820 S2: my favorite things to do when I'm reading an academic volume. 411 00:23:33,820 --> 00:23:36,260 S2: I was just reading a book by Da Carson, the 412 00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:39,900 S2: reformed theologian, and he has this footnote where he he 413 00:23:39,940 --> 00:23:43,020 S2: says in a, in a footnote, he says, um, something 414 00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:45,620 S2: to the effect of I used to think differently about this, 415 00:23:45,780 --> 00:23:48,100 S2: but one of my, one of my students corrected me 416 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:50,340 S2: on it, and now I see that I'm wrong. I 417 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:53,380 S2: love that. I love when you've got a hero of 418 00:23:53,380 --> 00:23:56,660 S2: the faith who's, like, willing to be wrong. That's just 419 00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:58,420 S2: one of the coolest things in the world to me. 420 00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:02,420 S1: Okay, so that's that's what we're talking about. That is 421 00:24:02,420 --> 00:24:06,540 S1: what a teachable spirit is. Uh, AJ Swoboda is with 422 00:24:06,540 --> 00:24:09,060 S1: us two minutes before our break. So I'm going to 423 00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:11,500 S1: throw this question. It's going to say if somebody's just 424 00:24:11,540 --> 00:24:13,419 S1: getting in the car and you're turning on the radio. 425 00:24:13,460 --> 00:24:17,060 S1: This sounds like the weirdest question you've ever heard, but 426 00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:19,380 S1: I'm going to ask it anyway. What have you learned 427 00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:20,500 S1: from your chickens? 428 00:24:21,619 --> 00:24:21,979 S4: Mm. 429 00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:28,420 S2: Um, I've, I've, I've learned that my. This is going 430 00:24:28,460 --> 00:24:31,419 S2: to sound weird, but, um, I've learned that my food 431 00:24:31,420 --> 00:24:34,540 S2: comes from somewhere, and I know that sounds really silly, 432 00:24:34,540 --> 00:24:37,060 S2: but when you were raised growing up going to the supermarket, 433 00:24:37,060 --> 00:24:39,860 S2: you thought your food came from the supermarket. But when 434 00:24:39,859 --> 00:24:43,420 S2: you have chickens, you actually learned that your food comes 435 00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:47,619 S2: from real beings. And when you when you know that 436 00:24:47,619 --> 00:24:51,379 S2: it changes the way that you eat, you treat your 437 00:24:51,420 --> 00:24:54,700 S2: your chicken, your food more respectfully because you know, this 438 00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:58,020 S2: comes from a creature that God made, you know. So 439 00:24:58,020 --> 00:24:59,820 S2: in a way, I think it's reframed. The way that 440 00:24:59,820 --> 00:25:02,020 S2: I eat my omelettes mean a lot more to me 441 00:25:02,020 --> 00:25:02,939 S2: than they used to. 442 00:25:04,380 --> 00:25:07,500 S1: I love it, I'm glad I asked that question. And friend, 443 00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:09,700 S1: if you want to ask a question, especially I want 444 00:25:09,740 --> 00:25:13,220 S1: to talk about learning from enemies. Is it possible? Are 445 00:25:13,220 --> 00:25:16,740 S1: we just supposed to defeat our enemies? Are we just 446 00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:20,020 S1: supposed to have the right argument for somebody who is 447 00:25:20,020 --> 00:25:23,100 S1: on the other side of, say, the abortion debate? If 448 00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:30,659 S1: somebody is Abortion or against the pro-life message? Aren't we 449 00:25:30,660 --> 00:25:34,540 S1: just supposed to defeat that person and kind of, uh, 450 00:25:35,020 --> 00:25:38,780 S1: get them marginalized? Or is there something we can learn 451 00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:41,980 S1: from them? I want to talk about that, and I'll 452 00:25:41,980 --> 00:25:48,619 S1: open the lines at (877) 548-3675. Featured resource is a teachable 453 00:25:48,619 --> 00:26:05,180 S1: spirit at Chris Fabry Live. What a pleasure to have 454 00:26:05,180 --> 00:26:09,020 S1: doctor A.J. Swoboda with us today at the Radio Backyard Fence. 455 00:26:09,020 --> 00:26:13,740 S1: His book is a teachable spirit, the virtue of learning 456 00:26:13,740 --> 00:26:19,060 S1: from strangers, enemies, and absolutely anyone. And he's got another 457 00:26:19,060 --> 00:26:22,260 S1: of other books that he has written. But I really 458 00:26:22,260 --> 00:26:26,020 S1: wanted to to get on this one because of this 459 00:26:26,020 --> 00:26:28,859 S1: topic of enemies, he says that there are all kinds 460 00:26:28,859 --> 00:26:33,220 S1: of people that we need to learn from the experts, strangers, 461 00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:38,820 S1: the dead, children, parents, secular culture. We could do a 462 00:26:38,820 --> 00:26:43,380 S1: whole program on that. And then enemies. And I see 463 00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:49,899 S1: this mostly in my own life, A.J., with social media 464 00:26:50,340 --> 00:26:53,660 S1: and somebody it could be whatever the big topic is 465 00:26:53,660 --> 00:26:59,619 S1: right now, and that is Minnesota and the, the, the 466 00:26:59,660 --> 00:27:02,940 S1: death of the woman and the ice and all that. 467 00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:06,660 S1: It's like I see on my feed, left and right. 468 00:27:06,660 --> 00:27:09,659 S1: I see a for and against. I see all of 469 00:27:09,660 --> 00:27:15,700 S1: this vitriol. And she was she deserved it. No, this 470 00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:18,060 S1: was murder and all. And you see it in the 471 00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:22,340 S1: political world, too. It's like I just have to step back. 472 00:27:22,340 --> 00:27:25,540 S1: I just can't I just can't dip my toe even 473 00:27:25,540 --> 00:27:29,220 S1: in this. Because here's somebody who's who's no longer around. 474 00:27:29,260 --> 00:27:31,340 S1: You know, here's here's a mom of kids who's no 475 00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:34,740 S1: longer around. But at the same time, here are law 476 00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:37,340 S1: enforcement people who are trying to do their job. And 477 00:27:37,340 --> 00:27:41,180 S1: so we can go further down that trail and start 478 00:27:41,180 --> 00:27:43,300 S1: a fight going here. But that's not my point. My 479 00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:47,780 S1: point is, it seems like the world's system is set 480 00:27:47,820 --> 00:27:51,180 S1: up for us in this way, and that is to 481 00:27:51,220 --> 00:27:54,459 S1: get you on one side or the other and to 482 00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:58,140 S1: get you to argue with whoever that other person is, 483 00:27:58,260 --> 00:28:03,220 S1: or just simply marginalize them and put them in a 484 00:28:03,220 --> 00:28:06,180 S1: basket that you don't have to think about anymore. You 485 00:28:06,220 --> 00:28:10,020 S1: you dehumanize them because they are on the other side 486 00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:14,180 S1: of an issue. Doesn't matter what the issue is. If 487 00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:16,379 S1: the and I think this is part of the ploy 488 00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:19,780 S1: of the enemy to get us to see each other, 489 00:28:19,780 --> 00:28:23,180 S1: not as human beings made in the image of God anymore. 490 00:28:23,260 --> 00:28:24,380 S1: Do you agree with that? 491 00:28:26,780 --> 00:28:30,379 S2: I have about 20 things I'd want to say in response. Yes. 492 00:28:31,020 --> 00:28:33,419 S2: So let me let me talk about my generation for 493 00:28:33,420 --> 00:28:36,700 S2: just a second. I'm 44 years old. Um, my generation, 494 00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:40,540 S2: more than any other generation. And it's just only gotten worse, um, 495 00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:44,860 S2: or become more of a reality. Our generation was raised 496 00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:49,500 S2: playing sports. So I remember playing baseball, I played basketball, 497 00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:53,300 S2: I even played soccer, and I was raised playing sports. 498 00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:57,140 S2: Sports are great love good. Exercise. Phenomenal. And, uh, I 499 00:28:57,140 --> 00:28:59,940 S2: think I think it's great to play sports. The only 500 00:28:59,940 --> 00:29:04,060 S2: the only problem with it is this approach towards life 501 00:29:04,060 --> 00:29:09,340 S2: has created, um, a psychology of what has been called gamification. 502 00:29:10,180 --> 00:29:13,780 S2: And the idea of gamification is that when when you 503 00:29:13,780 --> 00:29:18,580 S2: develop a culture that is is forged around. There's my team. 504 00:29:18,580 --> 00:29:21,060 S2: That's right. And the other team that's to be defeated. 505 00:29:22,020 --> 00:29:24,380 S2: When you have been raised in the world to believe 506 00:29:24,860 --> 00:29:26,660 S2: you're on the right team and everybody else is on 507 00:29:26,660 --> 00:29:29,860 S2: the wrong. How can we not expect that generation to 508 00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:33,300 S2: grow up and view the world that way? So what 509 00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:37,260 S2: ends up happening is we're we're colonized, I think, intellectually 510 00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:43,340 S2: colonized into that worldview, believing whatever I think is right 511 00:29:43,340 --> 00:29:47,500 S2: and whatever anybody else thinks is just wrong. And we 512 00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:51,180 S2: end up over time. We end up calling everybody else 513 00:29:51,180 --> 00:29:58,060 S2: evil and us good as a way of validating, um, 514 00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:02,060 S2: what we currently think. And obviously in the political realm, 515 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:06,700 S2: I mean, we're seeing this happen a consistent amount now 516 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:10,220 S2: where whatever side of the political spectrum you fall on, 517 00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:14,260 S2: you see the other side using tactics that you would 518 00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:17,340 S2: deem to be evil. And so that gives you a 519 00:30:17,340 --> 00:30:20,820 S2: permission structure to all of a sudden use evil to 520 00:30:20,860 --> 00:30:23,780 S2: defeat evil. The only problem is if you're using evil 521 00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:26,940 S2: to defeat evil, the only thing that could win is evil. 522 00:30:28,420 --> 00:30:31,780 S2: So we're not told to use evil to con to 523 00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:35,220 S2: defeat evil, we're told to use good. And we don't 524 00:30:35,220 --> 00:30:38,700 S2: overcome evil with evil. We overcome evil with good. Paul 525 00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:43,220 S2: says in the letter to the Romans. So, uh, in, 526 00:30:43,220 --> 00:30:45,220 S2: in a in a way, I think that you're onto 527 00:30:45,260 --> 00:30:49,860 S2: some cultural realities that, frankly, have been forged in our 528 00:30:49,860 --> 00:30:54,500 S2: generations since we were playing T-ball. My team is right, 529 00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:58,100 S2: and everybody else is wrong. Um, and over time, unless 530 00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:00,980 S2: that goes confronted, uh, we spend our life living that way. 531 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:04,860 S1: And then you get on a personal level and you 532 00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:09,580 S1: include politics or whatever is going on that that divides people. 533 00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:11,900 S1: And or you can get into the church. I mean, 534 00:31:11,940 --> 00:31:16,260 S1: how many, how many things in, uh, differences in scripture 535 00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:20,100 S1: can we pull out that makes people fight against each other. 536 00:31:20,140 --> 00:31:22,380 S1: You know, you believe that about tongues. You believe that 537 00:31:22,380 --> 00:31:25,740 S1: about the rapture. You think that about Israel. Calvin, you 538 00:31:25,740 --> 00:31:28,620 S1: mentioned John Calvin. I mean, you mentioned Calvinism is like 539 00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:31,860 S1: people hold a cross up to you or Arminian, you know, 540 00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,780 S1: all of that. It's like we have all these divides 541 00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:36,780 S1: that we just oh, I have to listen to you 542 00:31:36,780 --> 00:31:40,580 S1: anymore because you think that about that. Um, and I 543 00:31:40,580 --> 00:31:44,540 S1: think what you're saying here in these enemies, this enemies chapter, 544 00:31:44,980 --> 00:31:49,420 S1: is that there is an insecurity. I'm talking to myself now. 545 00:31:49,460 --> 00:31:53,500 S1: There is an insecurity that I have to engage someone. 546 00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:55,620 S1: And I'm not talking about social media now. I'm just 547 00:31:55,620 --> 00:31:58,700 S1: talking about just talking to somebody over the fence or 548 00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:00,660 S1: talk to one of my kids who I disagree with 549 00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:04,140 S1: about one thing or another, and to just simply say, 550 00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:07,500 S1: so let me get this straight. So you here's what 551 00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:09,420 S1: you think. Let me restate this for you. Is that 552 00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:12,140 S1: what you think? Tell me more about that. I don't 553 00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:16,340 S1: think we have the security to actually ask that and 554 00:32:16,340 --> 00:32:20,420 S1: then listen and engage on a heart level with them. 555 00:32:20,820 --> 00:32:24,260 S1: Or we do. We're only trying to get to the 556 00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:27,580 S1: place where we can say, okay, there's where you're wrong. 557 00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:31,180 S1: That's where I need to correct you. And that's that's 558 00:32:31,180 --> 00:32:34,660 S1: not learning anything from them other than, you know, where 559 00:32:34,660 --> 00:32:35,780 S1: did pounce? 560 00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:41,180 S2: Uh, bingo. So, uh, okay, the story of, uh, the, 561 00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:45,980 S2: the the washing of the disciples feet, um, John's gospel 562 00:32:45,980 --> 00:32:51,980 S2: and the the the final concluding days of Jesus's life. Uh, 563 00:32:52,260 --> 00:32:56,020 S2: Jesus washes his disciples feet. Um, when you look carefully 564 00:32:56,020 --> 00:32:58,860 S2: at that story, you'll notice that there's somebody in the 565 00:32:58,860 --> 00:33:02,820 S2: room as Jesus washes feet that one would think shouldn't 566 00:33:02,820 --> 00:33:06,620 S2: be there. Uh, Judas Iscariot is in the room, and 567 00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:09,660 S2: Judas has has sold the presence of Jesus to the 568 00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:14,540 S2: Roman Empire, to the Roman soldiers in order to get 569 00:33:14,660 --> 00:33:17,180 S2: him for just a few silver coins to to get 570 00:33:17,180 --> 00:33:20,140 S2: him arrested and eventually killed. And what does Jesus do? 571 00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:26,020 S2: He serves his enemy, the one who is standing against him. Now, 572 00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:31,140 S2: we tend to think in kind of modern Christian circles. 573 00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:35,500 S2: We tend to think that if I serve somebody, that 574 00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:39,740 S2: implies that I agree with them. And I think that 575 00:33:39,740 --> 00:33:41,420 S2: when you look at that story, I mean, Jesus is 576 00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:43,980 S2: washing the disciple of the guy who's going to get 577 00:33:43,980 --> 00:33:47,500 S2: him crucified. Jesus didn't wash his feet because he agreed 578 00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:52,340 S2: with him. Lord knows Jesus serves me all the time 579 00:33:52,340 --> 00:33:59,020 S2: and rarely agrees with me. We assume that serving somebody 580 00:33:59,020 --> 00:34:03,140 S2: implies agreement, and I think we have assumed the same 581 00:34:03,140 --> 00:34:07,260 S2: thing about listening. We assume that to listen to somebody 582 00:34:07,260 --> 00:34:11,540 S2: means that we agree with them, when in reality, listening 583 00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:14,140 S2: is actually the way that we learn to engage with 584 00:34:14,140 --> 00:34:16,819 S2: people that we disagree with. I love the way that 585 00:34:16,820 --> 00:34:19,180 S2: you said, like, tell me more about that. I want 586 00:34:19,219 --> 00:34:21,620 S2: to learn more. Let me help me be a learner 587 00:34:21,620 --> 00:34:24,780 S2: in this situation. Help me see things from your perspective. 588 00:34:25,260 --> 00:34:28,660 S2: I suspect we have believed that if I listen to somebody, 589 00:34:28,660 --> 00:34:31,299 S2: if I serve somebody, that means it's going to be 590 00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:33,660 S2: implied that I agree with them. Well, if that's the case, 591 00:34:33,660 --> 00:34:36,420 S2: then Jesus violated that all the time. He listened to 592 00:34:36,460 --> 00:34:39,580 S2: people constantly he disagreed with. Um, Lord knows he listens 593 00:34:39,580 --> 00:34:41,739 S2: to my prayers all the time and again and again. 594 00:34:41,739 --> 00:34:45,020 S2: He rarely agrees with me. So just because we're listening 595 00:34:45,060 --> 00:34:48,739 S2: to somebody does not mean we agree with them. It 596 00:34:48,739 --> 00:34:51,620 S2: is often the way that we don't do silly things. 597 00:34:51,620 --> 00:34:53,580 S2: To hurt them is by listening. 598 00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:56,299 S1: And I think that's one of the most loving things 599 00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:58,700 S1: that you can do for somebody else, and that is 600 00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:03,339 S1: to actually listen to them and be engaged with whatever 601 00:35:03,340 --> 00:35:07,420 S1: story that they're telling. Not to rush them to whatever 602 00:35:07,420 --> 00:35:11,700 S1: the point is, but to really to really hear rather 603 00:35:11,700 --> 00:35:17,420 S1: than just letting the the, the the ear open, you know, 604 00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:21,900 S1: and okay, I got this or asked ChatGPT to describe, 605 00:35:21,940 --> 00:35:23,900 S1: you know, what you just heard. You know, so you 606 00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:25,940 S1: can spit it back out to them. It's like really 607 00:35:25,940 --> 00:35:30,219 S1: listen on a different level. That's a, that's a huge 608 00:35:30,219 --> 00:35:35,259 S1: loving gift to somebody, especially whom you don't agree with. 609 00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:39,700 S1: Not to, again, not to find the ammunition or the 610 00:35:39,739 --> 00:35:41,980 S1: chink in the armor or the place where you can 611 00:35:41,980 --> 00:35:44,380 S1: get in and say, here's where I'm going to get you. 612 00:35:44,580 --> 00:35:49,380 S1: Do the gotcha thing. But to really understand where they're 613 00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:54,180 S1: coming from. Uh, that kind of listening doesn't change the 614 00:35:54,180 --> 00:35:57,460 S1: other person's mind about the issue, but it does allow 615 00:35:57,460 --> 00:36:01,219 S1: you to learn what is really going on. Right. 616 00:36:02,620 --> 00:36:06,020 S2: Uh, yeah. So so the you had originally brought up 617 00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:08,540 S2: the topic of learning from your enemies, and I want 618 00:36:08,580 --> 00:36:10,580 S2: to I want to circle back to that for just 619 00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:14,700 S2: for just a second. What would be the value in 620 00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:18,020 S2: in listening to somebody that you vehemently disagree with? What 621 00:36:18,020 --> 00:36:19,460 S2: would be the value in that? And this is a 622 00:36:19,460 --> 00:36:23,060 S2: great illustration, um, from an exercise that I do in 623 00:36:23,060 --> 00:36:26,060 S2: one of my Bible classes. Um, I start the class 624 00:36:26,060 --> 00:36:28,779 S2: and I put up a picture on the PowerPoint I 625 00:36:28,820 --> 00:36:31,779 S2: put up. I put up a picture of a book 626 00:36:31,780 --> 00:36:35,060 S2: written by Adolf Hitler called, uh, called Mein Kampf. Um, 627 00:36:35,300 --> 00:36:39,060 S2: in German it means my struggle. And it was a series. Essentially, 628 00:36:39,060 --> 00:36:43,140 S2: it was a series of anti-Semitic rants that Hitler wrote 629 00:36:43,140 --> 00:36:47,060 S2: in prison before he came to power. And, um, Mein 630 00:36:47,100 --> 00:36:48,859 S2: Kampf is I mean, I put it up on the 631 00:36:48,860 --> 00:36:53,020 S2: board and I asked the students, should we read this 632 00:36:53,020 --> 00:36:57,660 S2: book or should we burn this book? Now the conversation 633 00:36:57,660 --> 00:37:01,060 S2: that ensues is always fascinating to me, because there are 634 00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:03,819 S2: some students who would say we should burn it. We 635 00:37:03,820 --> 00:37:06,299 S2: should never read it, get rid of it, ban it, whatever. 636 00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:09,060 S2: And then other students who would say, no, we should 637 00:37:09,060 --> 00:37:12,100 S2: read it. And they're not saying that because they they 638 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:13,819 S2: they want to kill Jewish people. And they're not saying 639 00:37:13,820 --> 00:37:18,540 S2: because they're anti-Semitic. They're saying it because there's value in 640 00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:21,620 S2: reading a book like that. Um, for the very express 641 00:37:21,620 --> 00:37:27,300 S2: purpose that unless you understand what your enemy is trying 642 00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:33,740 S2: to do, you cannot, uh, you can't stand against it, 643 00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:37,460 S2: that you actually need to hear your enemy in order 644 00:37:37,460 --> 00:37:41,580 S2: to dismantle their horrible ideas. Now, I would be of 645 00:37:41,580 --> 00:37:44,739 S2: the mindset that if we never read Mein Kampf as 646 00:37:44,780 --> 00:37:48,060 S2: a as a culture, then we will forget what Hitler said. 647 00:37:48,060 --> 00:37:51,780 S2: And we just create a space where Hitler's ideas can 648 00:37:51,780 --> 00:37:55,299 S2: come to power again. The only way that we can 649 00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:58,700 S2: defeat the powers and the ideas and the ideologies of 650 00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:01,739 S2: evil is we've got to understand them in order to 651 00:38:01,780 --> 00:38:05,140 S2: defeat them. So, so, in a way, even if you're 652 00:38:05,140 --> 00:38:09,420 S2: going to change somebody's mind isn't listening and hearing part 653 00:38:09,420 --> 00:38:11,940 S2: of that. I mean, if you're an apologist, an apologist, 654 00:38:11,940 --> 00:38:14,620 S2: if you're into apologetics and you just come in and 655 00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:18,380 S2: tell everybody what you think without listening, then you're offering 656 00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:20,020 S2: answers to things they're not asking. 657 00:38:20,260 --> 00:38:23,859 S1: Exactly. But that's that's where the control comes back in. 658 00:38:23,900 --> 00:38:26,580 S1: It's like, I, I want to tell you everything that 659 00:38:26,580 --> 00:38:29,020 S1: I know because this is what I know. And don't 660 00:38:29,020 --> 00:38:32,580 S1: challenge me with any, any other question that you have 661 00:38:32,580 --> 00:38:35,580 S1: in here. So it gets back to my own fear. 662 00:38:35,980 --> 00:38:40,859 S1: It gets back to my own insecurity. And you have 663 00:38:40,860 --> 00:38:43,219 S1: a quote in here from C.S. Lewis. One of the 664 00:38:43,219 --> 00:38:47,140 S1: chief operations of art is to remove our gaze from 665 00:38:47,140 --> 00:38:51,300 S1: that mirrored face, to deliver us from that solitude, entering 666 00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:55,299 S1: fully into the opinions, and therefore also the attitudes, feelings 667 00:38:55,500 --> 00:39:00,500 S1: and total experience of other men. And you say reading 668 00:39:00,540 --> 00:39:05,020 S1: takes us into someone else's world. The work of reading 669 00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:08,060 S1: beckons us out of ourselves to learn from and love 670 00:39:08,060 --> 00:39:12,140 S1: someone on their terms. This is a work of love. 671 00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:16,060 S1: To enter someone else's world as Jesus did so love 672 00:39:16,060 --> 00:39:19,859 S1: may manifest. That's from the book of our guest a 673 00:39:19,860 --> 00:39:23,859 S1: teachable spirit, the virtue of learning from strangers, enemies, and 674 00:39:23,860 --> 00:39:28,700 S1: absolutely anyone. His name is doctor A.J. Swoboda. It's our 675 00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:31,899 S1: featured resource. If you go to Chris Fabry live, we 676 00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:35,580 S1: have a link to his website and to that featured resource, 677 00:39:35,620 --> 00:39:38,859 S1: A Teachable Spirit. Our final segment is coming up. This 678 00:39:38,860 --> 00:39:41,340 S1: is Chris Fabry live on Moody Radio. 679 00:39:51,660 --> 00:39:52,620 S5: This is Chris Fabry. 680 00:39:52,620 --> 00:39:56,380 S1: Live on Moody Radio. We've been asking you the last 681 00:39:56,420 --> 00:40:00,180 S1: since the beginning of the month here when we've been 682 00:40:00,180 --> 00:40:05,750 S1: back live, uh, to pray for Robert Wolgemuth. And he, uh, 683 00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:11,469 S1: he slipped this life into the next on Saturday morning early. 684 00:40:11,469 --> 00:40:15,030 S1: And so I was working on a program, a tribute program, 685 00:40:15,070 --> 00:40:18,710 S1: going through back a bunch of conversations that we've had 686 00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:21,629 S1: in the last 11 or 12 years. And so that's 687 00:40:21,630 --> 00:40:23,270 S1: what we're going to do tomorrow. We're just going to 688 00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:27,070 S1: let Robert talk about his life. And you'll hear from Bobby, 689 00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:32,790 S1: his first wife, who died in 2014, and Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, uh, 690 00:40:32,910 --> 00:40:35,350 S1: a little bit from her. And then just kind of 691 00:40:35,390 --> 00:40:39,950 S1: the overflow. So listen to the program tomorrow, uh, about Robert. 692 00:40:39,950 --> 00:40:43,030 S1: And then we have some more great conversations for you 693 00:40:43,230 --> 00:40:46,870 S1: throughout the week. Today. AJ Swoboda is with us. If 694 00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:49,670 S1: you go to Chris Fabry lives, you'll see our featured 695 00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:55,950 S1: resource right there, which is a teachable spirit. Um, the 696 00:40:55,950 --> 00:40:58,029 S1: early church take us back to the early church. How 697 00:40:58,030 --> 00:40:59,270 S1: did they do this? 698 00:41:00,190 --> 00:41:03,870 S2: Yeah, there's this, uh, in terms of learning from enemies, 699 00:41:04,030 --> 00:41:08,270 S2: Just a little fun, fun, little fun little story. You know, 700 00:41:08,310 --> 00:41:11,950 S2: in the early Christian community, um, some of the earliest Christians, 701 00:41:11,950 --> 00:41:18,350 S2: their biggest battle was really defending an what the apostles 702 00:41:18,350 --> 00:41:21,870 S2: taught about Jesus. I mean, there were all these alternative perspectives, 703 00:41:22,430 --> 00:41:25,030 S2: these people we would now call heretics, who were basically 704 00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:28,670 S2: saying all of these alternative perspectives on Jesus, that Jesus 705 00:41:28,670 --> 00:41:31,149 S2: wasn't really God, that he wasn't really human, that he 706 00:41:31,150 --> 00:41:34,950 S2: was only one, but not both and all all. A 707 00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:39,030 S2: ton of these early church fathers were defending. Right? An 708 00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:43,910 S2: accurate sort of view of Jesus as described by the apostles. 709 00:41:44,430 --> 00:41:48,030 S2: So in 1945 there was a one of the most 710 00:41:48,030 --> 00:41:52,790 S2: important archaeological finds in modern history was discovered, called the 711 00:41:52,830 --> 00:41:57,790 S2: Nag Hammadi archaeological dig, which is the the largest treasure 712 00:41:57,790 --> 00:42:03,469 S2: trove of essentially, uh, alternative heretical writings from the first 713 00:42:03,469 --> 00:42:06,870 S2: couple centuries. And so these are the these are the 714 00:42:07,110 --> 00:42:11,629 S2: the most intact writings from those people that the early 715 00:42:11,630 --> 00:42:14,350 S2: church was defending the faith against. And what's interesting is 716 00:42:14,350 --> 00:42:18,989 S2: when you compare the writings of the heretics with the 717 00:42:18,989 --> 00:42:22,350 S2: writings of the people who were quoting the heretics. So 718 00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:26,950 S2: the the Church Fathers, you'll find that the earliest Christians 719 00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:32,030 S2: always went out of their way to represent their enemies accurately. 720 00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:35,430 S2: They never misrepresented them. They didn't twist their words to 721 00:42:35,469 --> 00:42:39,590 S2: make to to get a win. They honored their enemy's 722 00:42:39,590 --> 00:42:43,989 S2: words as a means of confronting them. I suspect in 723 00:42:43,989 --> 00:42:46,629 S2: the modern world. Just a reminder. We love to. We 724 00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:50,069 S2: love to beat our enemies. Not because we just want 725 00:42:50,070 --> 00:42:51,629 S2: to be shown to be right, but we want to 726 00:42:51,630 --> 00:42:54,830 S2: destroy them, right? We want to twist them. We want to. 727 00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:57,790 S2: We want to beat them. And I just I want 728 00:42:57,830 --> 00:43:00,950 S2: to remind us that part, part of loving God is 729 00:43:01,070 --> 00:43:05,350 S2: also honoring your enemies and being willing to honor their 730 00:43:05,350 --> 00:43:08,950 S2: decisions and their words, and not twisting their words in 731 00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:11,509 S2: order to just beat them. You got to do it 732 00:43:11,510 --> 00:43:14,310 S2: in an ethical right way, and that means don't break 733 00:43:14,750 --> 00:43:17,390 S2: the commandment. You know the Ten Commandments don't break the 734 00:43:17,390 --> 00:43:20,830 S2: commandment bearing false witness. Don't lie about your enemies to 735 00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:23,069 S2: beat them. And that's a hard that is a hard 736 00:43:23,070 --> 00:43:26,030 S2: word in our culture. Chris. Or distort. 737 00:43:26,310 --> 00:43:29,109 S1: Distort. What they're saying is like, no, that's not what 738 00:43:29,110 --> 00:43:31,790 S1: I'm saying. Don't put words in my mouth. You know? Okay. 739 00:43:31,830 --> 00:43:34,549 S1: Don't don't don't make that error. Uh, how do I 740 00:43:34,590 --> 00:43:38,230 S1: know I'm moving toward. Because I don't think this is 741 00:43:38,270 --> 00:43:40,830 S1: one of the, you know, I've arrived, you know? Uh, 742 00:43:40,830 --> 00:43:44,030 S1: but how do I know I'm moving toward teachability? 743 00:43:46,190 --> 00:43:50,790 S2: Um, yeah. You know, so funny, the older I get again, 744 00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:54,910 S2: I'm only 44, but the older I get, the more 745 00:43:56,150 --> 00:44:05,230 S2: tempted I become to think, uh, that I'm right. Right. Like, 746 00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:07,189 S2: I don't know why, but the older I get, I 747 00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:10,830 S2: sort of think, like, I have the right to be right, because, 748 00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:12,750 S2: you know, I'm older and I'm, you know, I'm not 749 00:44:12,750 --> 00:44:16,149 S2: a teenager anymore. And I'm. And that greatly affects my 750 00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:18,830 S2: parenting style, because if I think I'm always right, then 751 00:44:18,830 --> 00:44:22,390 S2: I have nothing to learn from my son. Um, I mean, 752 00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:24,549 S2: I think, I think all of us could recognize in 753 00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:27,830 S2: our own hearts and minds that the older that we become, 754 00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:32,150 S2: it is easy to become inflexible, and it's easy to 755 00:44:32,350 --> 00:44:36,109 S2: develop what the Old Testament calls a stiff neck or 756 00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:40,189 S2: a hard heart. Um, is that over time, we just 757 00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:43,430 S2: sort of get hardened and hardened and hardened and we 758 00:44:43,469 --> 00:44:48,469 S2: don't know how to hear from anybody anymore. Um, you know, 759 00:44:48,469 --> 00:44:50,630 S2: as a, as a, as a pastor. Now, one of 760 00:44:50,630 --> 00:44:53,710 S2: the weirdest things is, um, for the first time in 761 00:44:53,710 --> 00:44:57,030 S2: my life, um, some of my favorite pastors now are 762 00:44:57,030 --> 00:45:01,350 S2: younger than myself. and my teachers. People that I'm reading 763 00:45:01,350 --> 00:45:04,069 S2: and listening are younger than myself. And I think one 764 00:45:04,070 --> 00:45:07,109 S2: of the signs that you're moving towards Teachability is that 765 00:45:07,110 --> 00:45:09,950 S2: you still that you can learn, even if it's from younger, 766 00:45:09,950 --> 00:45:13,870 S2: less wise people than you. That's good. There's that. Where's that? 767 00:45:13,870 --> 00:45:16,629 S2: There's that proverb about going to the ant, you know, 768 00:45:16,630 --> 00:45:18,390 S2: like go, go to the humble place. Go to the 769 00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:19,630 S2: low place to learn. 770 00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:26,469 S1: Yeah. AJ, I'm. Rosie was right. You're just talking with you. 771 00:45:26,510 --> 00:45:29,710 S1: Even if you hadn't written anything like this, just talking 772 00:45:29,710 --> 00:45:33,070 S1: with you is is a real breath of fresh air. 773 00:45:33,469 --> 00:45:35,830 S1: We didn't get to talk about Jonah. You talk about 774 00:45:35,830 --> 00:45:39,950 S1: somebody who wasn't teachable. You know, go over there to Nineveh. 775 00:45:39,950 --> 00:45:42,990 S1: And he wanted to. And then they responded to the message, 776 00:45:42,989 --> 00:45:48,030 S1: and he was frustrated because God wasn't obliterating them. There's 777 00:45:48,030 --> 00:45:51,110 S1: so much in the book. I love your all of 778 00:45:51,150 --> 00:45:53,589 S1: the quotes. It's worth the price of the book just 779 00:45:53,590 --> 00:45:56,589 S1: to get all of the quotes that you have about 780 00:45:56,790 --> 00:46:01,069 S1: all of the teachable people that we can learn from. Basically, 781 00:46:01,110 --> 00:46:03,830 S1: enemies is part of that, but there's more to it. 782 00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:06,790 S1: Come back and see us again real soon and have 783 00:46:06,790 --> 00:46:08,670 S1: a great 2026, okay? 784 00:46:09,390 --> 00:46:10,110 S6: Grace and peace. 785 00:46:11,310 --> 00:46:15,710 S1: AJ has been our guest today at the Radio Backyard Fence. 786 00:46:15,710 --> 00:46:19,590 S1: Last name is Swoboda. His book is a teachable spirit 787 00:46:19,590 --> 00:46:24,550 S1: the virtue of learning from strangers, enemies, and absolutely anyone, 788 00:46:24,750 --> 00:46:29,830 S1: including the dead, children, parents, and secular culture. You go 789 00:46:29,830 --> 00:46:33,029 S1: to Chris Barrie live. You'll see it right there. Chris, 790 00:46:34,830 --> 00:46:38,469 S1: click through today's information and make sure you put this 791 00:46:38,510 --> 00:46:41,350 S1: on your calendar. Make an appointment to join us tomorrow 792 00:46:41,350 --> 00:46:44,910 S1: to hear Robert Wolgemuth in his own words at the 793 00:46:44,910 --> 00:46:48,550 S1: radio backyard fence. Chris Fabry lives production of Moody Radio, 794 00:46:48,590 --> 00:46:50,910 S1: a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.