1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,760 S1: You have a wayward child you're trying to love well, 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,039 S1: is your heart breaking about the choices that child is making? 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,760 S1: Maybe you feel isolated because of the situation. You feel shame, guilt. 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,200 S1: Do you think the choices your child is making are 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,640 S1: because you made a mistake as a parent? And in 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,840 S1: the middle of this, where's God when you've done everything 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,680 S1: you were supposed to do? But things didn't turn out 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,320 S1: the way you believed they would? Where is he? If 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,400 S1: that is where you are or if you're in the neighborhood, 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,960 S1: the vicinity of that. Join us today at the Radio 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,800 S1: Backyard Fence. There is power in our stories, and Erica 12 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,720 S1: Wagenhausen is going to share her journey today. Let's get started. 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:55,040 S1: You'll find us online@kris.org. We thank our team. Ryan McConaughey 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,600 S1: doing all things technical. Trish is our producer. Lisa is 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,310 S1: helping out. Josh will be answering your calls, and I'm 16 00:01:01,350 --> 00:01:03,990 S1: grateful for those of you who've given here in November 17 00:01:04,350 --> 00:01:07,190 S1: to keep these conversations going. And our thank you this 18 00:01:07,190 --> 00:01:10,870 S1: month has been part of just about every conversation we've had. 19 00:01:11,190 --> 00:01:14,750 S1: What might happen in your life if you began journaling 20 00:01:15,110 --> 00:01:19,229 S1: as a spiritual practice? Alison Bixby wrote a book with 21 00:01:19,230 --> 00:01:21,950 S1: that title. That is our thank you. And I wondered 22 00:01:21,950 --> 00:01:24,709 S1: if our guest today would say anything about that topic 23 00:01:24,709 --> 00:01:27,310 S1: in her book. And I did a word search, and 24 00:01:27,310 --> 00:01:29,950 S1: the answer is yes. We're going to talk about that 25 00:01:29,950 --> 00:01:33,150 S1: in a minute. But if you want to begin journaling 26 00:01:33,150 --> 00:01:36,550 S1: and trace the lines of grace to God's presence in 27 00:01:36,550 --> 00:01:40,750 S1: your life, don't miss this resource. Call or click through. 28 00:01:40,750 --> 00:01:43,069 S1: Give a gift of any size. We will send you 29 00:01:43,069 --> 00:01:47,870 S1: a copy. The number is 86695 Fabri or go to 30 00:01:47,910 --> 00:01:54,230 S1: Chris fabri.org. I feel the shame and the guilt of 31 00:01:54,230 --> 00:01:57,910 S1: the past in this. Don't let your past failure at 32 00:01:57,940 --> 00:02:03,100 S1: journaling stop you from starting today or in the next 33 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:06,860 S1: few weeks. This might be what you need as we 34 00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:09,540 S1: move toward the end of the year for a new 35 00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:12,540 S1: thing in your life where you will trace the lines 36 00:02:12,540 --> 00:02:15,460 S1: of God's grace through what you put on the page. 37 00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:18,060 S1: I think it's really helpful. We'd love to hear from you. 38 00:02:18,060 --> 00:02:24,700 S1: Give a gift of any size (866) 953-2279, or just go 39 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:28,740 S1: to Chris Fabry live.org. Thanks for your support of the 40 00:02:28,740 --> 00:02:33,500 S1: Radio Backyard Fence. Erica Horne has served in various roles 41 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:36,859 S1: in women's ministry for more than 25 years. She's a 42 00:02:36,860 --> 00:02:41,820 S1: multi-published author, Bible teacher, national speaker. She loves to connect 43 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:45,139 S1: with people at retreats, at conferences, and around her own 44 00:02:45,139 --> 00:02:49,460 S1: kitchen table. She has degrees from Azusa Pacific University. She 45 00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:52,620 S1: and her husband, Jonathan, live in Phoenix. They have two children. 46 00:02:52,820 --> 00:02:57,169 S1: Her latest is. I'm really looking forward to this. Loving 47 00:02:57,169 --> 00:03:01,170 S1: Your Wayward Child. A Christian Guide to stand in faith 48 00:03:01,169 --> 00:03:05,329 S1: and build connection when their choices break your heart. And 49 00:03:05,330 --> 00:03:08,329 S1: I'm not looking forward to this because it's a hard topic. 50 00:03:08,730 --> 00:03:12,050 S1: I'm looking forward to it because, Erica, you have been 51 00:03:12,410 --> 00:03:15,370 S1: where a lot of our listener and still are, where 52 00:03:15,370 --> 00:03:17,970 S1: a lot of our listeners are living. So welcome back 53 00:03:17,970 --> 00:03:19,650 S1: to the program. How you doing today? 54 00:03:20,530 --> 00:03:24,650 S2: Thanks, Chris. It's, it's always fun to be with you. 55 00:03:25,250 --> 00:03:27,690 S1: This is a book you didn't want to write or 56 00:03:27,690 --> 00:03:30,530 S1: didn't want to have to write. Talk about that. 57 00:03:31,370 --> 00:03:34,809 S2: Yeah. Well, historically, I think I've been on your program 58 00:03:35,090 --> 00:03:39,010 S2: probably four times now. And every time we're we're talking 59 00:03:39,010 --> 00:03:41,370 S2: about Bible studies, right? We're opening up the word of 60 00:03:41,410 --> 00:03:44,970 S2: God and we're resting in his promises and we're rejoicing in, 61 00:03:45,010 --> 00:03:46,930 S2: in all of the good things that God has done 62 00:03:46,930 --> 00:03:50,250 S2: for us. And this is starting on the other side 63 00:03:50,250 --> 00:03:54,610 S2: of the fence, uh, and talking about something that nobody, 64 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,640 S2: No mom ever wants it to be her story. When 65 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,920 S2: it comes to having a child that has made choices 66 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,320 S2: that have broken her heart. And it could be really, 67 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,200 S2: it could be anything, right? It can be walking away 68 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:14,640 S2: from what you've raised them to believe about Christ and 69 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,440 S2: the Bible and following Jesus. And it can be a 70 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,960 S2: failure to launch. You know, they're 28 and they're still 71 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,560 S2: in your basement, and they're addicted to video games and 72 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,160 S2: they can't hold a job. It could be an addiction. 73 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,200 S2: It could be a relationship that you feel like has 74 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:38,040 S2: uncharacteristically changed them. Uh, the scenarios are so broad. Uh, 75 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,080 S2: there's a huge issue right now, especially with Gen Z, 76 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,200 S2: a lot of millennials just cutting their parents completely out 77 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:50,119 S2: of their lives and going non-contact. Um, it could be 78 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,360 S2: so many different things, but the reality is, is that, uh, 79 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,589 S2: this is a massive problem that is happening for a 80 00:04:57,589 --> 00:05:01,670 S2: lot of moms, and it's heartbreaking. Uh, I didn't realize 81 00:05:01,670 --> 00:05:04,430 S2: when it was happening in our own family, honestly, Chris, 82 00:05:04,430 --> 00:05:08,470 S2: how prevalent it was and how the Lord really led 83 00:05:08,470 --> 00:05:12,190 S2: me to pick up the pen and start addressing this 84 00:05:12,190 --> 00:05:16,229 S2: was as I would travel and speak, teaching God's Word 85 00:05:16,230 --> 00:05:19,510 S2: all over the nation. It would often invite women to 86 00:05:19,550 --> 00:05:23,190 S2: come at the end of of the session and meet 87 00:05:23,190 --> 00:05:24,830 S2: me in the back of the room if I could 88 00:05:24,830 --> 00:05:27,270 S2: pray for them, or if they had any questions about 89 00:05:27,270 --> 00:05:32,230 S2: what I had taught from God's Word. And overwhelmingly, this 90 00:05:32,230 --> 00:05:34,510 S2: was the issue that moms were coming to the back 91 00:05:34,510 --> 00:05:37,589 S2: of the room with and saying to me again and again, 92 00:05:37,589 --> 00:05:41,230 S2: it's my child, it's my child, it's my child. And 93 00:05:41,270 --> 00:05:44,909 S2: their eyes were just screaming for help. Like, how am 94 00:05:44,910 --> 00:05:48,750 S2: I going to get through this? Um, what do I do? Uh, 95 00:05:48,750 --> 00:05:52,670 S2: what hope can you give me? Erica and I realized 96 00:05:53,210 --> 00:05:55,890 S2: this is this is not just my problem. This is 97 00:05:55,890 --> 00:05:58,330 S2: a big problem. And I began to pray to the 98 00:05:58,330 --> 00:06:00,970 S2: Lord and say, Lord, what am I supposed to do 99 00:06:00,970 --> 00:06:04,650 S2: with this? I understand their pain in the depths of 100 00:06:04,650 --> 00:06:07,970 S2: my own soul. How do I help these women? And 101 00:06:07,970 --> 00:06:11,289 S2: I sensed the Lord just lay in my spirit as 102 00:06:11,290 --> 00:06:14,490 S2: I was crying out to him, saying, you've taught my 103 00:06:14,490 --> 00:06:17,610 S2: word for so many years. Erica, I need you to 104 00:06:17,650 --> 00:06:21,010 S2: teach my word. I need you to teach my daughters 105 00:06:21,170 --> 00:06:24,929 S2: the concept of me being their father, and that as 106 00:06:24,930 --> 00:06:29,850 S2: a father, I too have lots and lots and lots 107 00:06:29,850 --> 00:06:32,890 S2: of wayward kids out there. And I understand their hurt 108 00:06:32,890 --> 00:06:35,610 S2: and I understand their pain. And I am chasing after 109 00:06:35,610 --> 00:06:40,490 S2: their kids as hard and as fast as they are, 110 00:06:40,930 --> 00:06:43,610 S2: and to give them hope that I am their father 111 00:06:43,610 --> 00:06:45,969 S2: and I care about them, and I care about their kids, 112 00:06:45,970 --> 00:06:47,650 S2: and I love them, and I want to see their 113 00:06:47,650 --> 00:06:51,920 S2: families restored. And that's really the basis of how this 114 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,160 S2: whole thing got started. 115 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,680 S1: That made me want to ask. Uh, since you're writing 116 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,080 S1: mainly to moms and the broken hearts about your husband, 117 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,960 S1: about men in general, but about your husband, how did 118 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,800 S1: he react? How did he respond? Was it different than 119 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,040 S1: the way you did? Did it break his heart as 120 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,800 S1: well as you were going through whatever you went through? 121 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,360 S2: Yeah. Great question. Uh, we actually talk about that in 122 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,920 S2: a footnote in, uh, loving your wayward child. But, uh, 123 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,840 S2: one of the things that we try to really help 124 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,840 S2: moms understand through the words of loving your wayward child is, um, 125 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,000 S2: the process that they're going through is grief. It's a 126 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,480 S2: form of grief. And grief is not linear and there's 127 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,400 S2: different stages of grief. And so what my husband and 128 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,920 S2: I found, and what we had to work through together 129 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,440 S2: was that we were often in different stages of grief process. 130 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,350 S2: So maybe he was in the anger stage and I 131 00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:57,590 S2: was in more of the despair stage. And so our 132 00:07:57,590 --> 00:08:02,110 S2: responses toward our son were different because we were in 133 00:08:02,110 --> 00:08:05,710 S2: different stages of grief. And so we had to constantly 134 00:08:05,750 --> 00:08:09,070 S2: be having these sort of check in moments of, you know, 135 00:08:09,110 --> 00:08:13,110 S2: where are you at? And, and the hard thing in 136 00:08:13,750 --> 00:08:17,110 S2: the grief of having a wayward child, Chris, is that, 137 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:19,550 S2: I mean, all grief is hard. And I'm not trying 138 00:08:19,550 --> 00:08:25,430 S2: to minimize anyone's grief. I would never do that. Um, the, 139 00:08:25,590 --> 00:08:28,190 S2: but the tricky part, the tricky part, I guess I 140 00:08:28,190 --> 00:08:31,510 S2: should say, in Loving Your Wayward Child is that the 141 00:08:31,510 --> 00:08:35,709 S2: person that you're grieving is still living. And so there's 142 00:08:35,710 --> 00:08:40,190 S2: this element. There's always an element of hope, of restoration, 143 00:08:40,190 --> 00:08:42,510 S2: which we should always have hope as long as as 144 00:08:42,510 --> 00:08:45,870 S2: Jesus is on the throne, there's always hope. Uh, but 145 00:08:45,870 --> 00:08:49,980 S2: their behaviors change. And as your child's behaviors change, it 146 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:53,180 S2: can sort of catapult you from one area of grief 147 00:08:53,179 --> 00:08:58,380 S2: to another very unexpectedly. And so it becomes a source 148 00:08:58,380 --> 00:09:02,819 S2: of communication that you and your spouse need to consistently 149 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:07,020 S2: have to truly understand where the other person is at 150 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:11,140 S2: in the grief stage and how that's going to affect 151 00:09:11,740 --> 00:09:15,820 S2: their response towards your child when there is in fact, 152 00:09:15,820 --> 00:09:17,980 S2: any form of communication with them. 153 00:09:18,540 --> 00:09:21,740 S1: And when you are open together as a, as a team, 154 00:09:22,340 --> 00:09:26,060 S1: that means that that grace can be poured out for 155 00:09:26,059 --> 00:09:29,260 S1: the other if they're in a different season or a 156 00:09:29,260 --> 00:09:32,940 S1: different stage than you are, that you're not going to 157 00:09:32,980 --> 00:09:37,300 S1: judge them. And it will actually, those differences can actually 158 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:41,780 S1: draw you closer together in a in a strange sense. 159 00:09:42,140 --> 00:09:46,700 S1: And this is a strange topic because it's we want 160 00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:49,329 S1: what we want and we want what we thought we 161 00:09:49,330 --> 00:09:51,370 S1: were going to get, and we didn't get what we 162 00:09:51,370 --> 00:09:53,450 S1: thought we thought we were going to get. If we 163 00:09:53,490 --> 00:09:55,010 S1: do this, that. And the other thing I want you 164 00:09:55,010 --> 00:09:58,330 S1: to talk about that. But I think the question I 165 00:09:58,330 --> 00:10:00,569 S1: asked on Facebook is, what is one way to love 166 00:10:00,610 --> 00:10:03,490 S1: a wayward child? Well. And I'm going to read some 167 00:10:03,490 --> 00:10:06,090 S1: of these responses, but I'd love to hear from you 168 00:10:06,090 --> 00:10:09,570 S1: if you're listening today. And I'd like to give you 169 00:10:09,610 --> 00:10:15,050 S1: let you give the other moms parents listening today a 170 00:10:15,050 --> 00:10:18,330 S1: little bit of your hope. You've had a wayward child. 171 00:10:18,850 --> 00:10:23,770 S1: What was one way you were able to love that child? Well, 172 00:10:24,010 --> 00:10:26,929 S1: when they were very far away from you, when you 173 00:10:26,929 --> 00:10:30,170 S1: felt like they were very far from God? What would 174 00:10:30,170 --> 00:10:35,970 S1: you say to that answer to that question? Eight. 775483675. 175 00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:46,880 S1: XR number (877) 548-3675. Erica Hawn's featured resource today@chris.org is loving 176 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:52,480 S1: your wayward child. Just go to Chris Fabry live.org. You'll 177 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,119 S1: see a link right there. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. 178 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,760 S1: If you're looking at the radio or your device, however 179 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,719 S1: you hear us and you're saying, how do you know 180 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,760 S1: we were going through this? Well, we didn't, but there's 181 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,600 S1: enough people in this category with wayward children, quote unquote, 182 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,160 S1: that this is this is kind of a universal if 183 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,079 S1: you have kids. Well, it was universal for God. His 184 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,160 S1: first kids. Look at what happened to them. It was 185 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,080 S1: a perfect there. And look at look at how the 186 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,079 S1: wheels came off in the garden. So Erica Whitehorn is 187 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,920 S1: really honest and open, though she doesn't go into a 188 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,560 S1: lot of specifics about her family's situation, what they've been through. 189 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,630 S1: But there are principles that she's learned, and we want 190 00:11:46,670 --> 00:11:50,429 S1: to hear from you today about loving your wayward child. 191 00:11:50,429 --> 00:11:53,109 S1: A Christian Guide to stand in faith and build connection 192 00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:57,470 S1: when their choices break your heart. And that brokenheartedness is 193 00:11:57,470 --> 00:12:01,150 S1: really going to seep deeply into your soul today. If 194 00:12:01,190 --> 00:12:04,589 S1: you listen to what Erica has discovered in her life 195 00:12:04,590 --> 00:12:11,030 S1: and discovered about God through this process. (877) 548-3675. I want 196 00:12:11,030 --> 00:12:14,030 S1: you to talk to the person who who has believed. 197 00:12:14,390 --> 00:12:16,790 S1: This is what all the books I read, all the 198 00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:19,910 S1: parenting books and I followed it to a T as 199 00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:22,030 S1: well as I could. And I did this and that, 200 00:12:22,030 --> 00:12:24,950 S1: and we did. We homeschooled or we Christian schooled or 201 00:12:25,070 --> 00:12:27,670 S1: whatever it is, you know, toed the line on all this. 202 00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:30,950 S1: And then this happened. It's like I kept my part 203 00:12:30,950 --> 00:12:34,990 S1: of the bargain in Proverbs. You know, the Proverbs about 204 00:12:35,309 --> 00:12:38,030 S1: train a child in the way he she should go. 205 00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:41,550 S1: I did that and look, look at where I am. 206 00:12:41,550 --> 00:12:43,900 S1: What happened here? Talk to that parent. 207 00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:48,380 S2: Yeah, I would say I hear you, sis. Me too. 208 00:12:48,660 --> 00:12:51,820 S2: Me too. Uh, you know, I followed all the rules, 209 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:54,819 S2: and I checked all the boxes and, um, you know, 210 00:12:54,860 --> 00:12:58,660 S2: did everything that I possibly thought to do as a 211 00:12:58,660 --> 00:13:02,900 S2: mom to try to train our children, to choose Jesus, 212 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:07,820 S2: to want to choose Jesus. And, um, and one of 213 00:13:07,820 --> 00:13:11,060 S2: them did, and one of them didn't. Uh, that doesn't 214 00:13:11,059 --> 00:13:14,020 S2: mean that he never will. I'm still praying and believing 215 00:13:14,020 --> 00:13:18,059 S2: that that he will, in fact, come back to the Lord. Um, 216 00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:23,460 S2: but there's no guarantees because they get to choose. They 217 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:26,300 S2: get to choose. Uh, one of the things. And you 218 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:28,180 S2: brought it up, Chris, and I'm so glad you did. 219 00:13:28,179 --> 00:13:31,020 S2: You talked about the very first family, uh, you know, 220 00:13:31,059 --> 00:13:34,380 S2: Adam and Eve, right? The, the, the OG mom who 221 00:13:34,420 --> 00:13:37,740 S2: enters onto the scene and she, she has two sons. 222 00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:43,690 S2: And Abel honors the Lord And Kane kind of tosses 223 00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:49,650 S2: a few tokens God's way. And when God says, you know, Kane, 224 00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:53,170 S2: this isn't going to cut it. Like, you know, Kane 225 00:13:53,170 --> 00:13:58,090 S2: becomes angry and he ends up murdering his brother Abel 226 00:13:58,130 --> 00:14:05,410 S2: out of jealousy and rage. And God then confronts Kane. And, 227 00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:09,370 S2: you know, even before he commits the murder. And he says, Kane, like, 228 00:14:09,410 --> 00:14:13,290 S2: you know, you know what the right thing to do is, 229 00:14:13,330 --> 00:14:16,329 S2: is essentially what God says to him. You know, Kane, 230 00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:19,650 S2: what is right? And if you don't choose what is right, 231 00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:23,490 S2: if you choose, evil is waiting and it belongs to 232 00:14:23,530 --> 00:14:28,370 S2: master you. And God led me to that story and 233 00:14:28,370 --> 00:14:31,650 S2: the thing in there that that gave me so much hope. 234 00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:35,210 S2: There's honestly two things, Chris. The first thing is this, uh, 235 00:14:35,450 --> 00:14:40,090 S2: God makes it clear that Kane understood what was right, 236 00:14:40,090 --> 00:14:43,680 S2: and he was choosing to not follow what was right. 237 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,200 S2: And that brought me hope in the sense that my 238 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,720 S2: son knows what is right. And mom, you out there listening, 239 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,600 S2: you have put all of these good deposits of truth, 240 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,920 S2: biblical truth, and biblical hope and life into your child, 241 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,479 S2: and they are still in there. They are not gone. 242 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,960 S2: They may not be living according to them, but they're 243 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,000 S2: still in there. Uh, Cain knew what was right. He 244 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,360 S2: just chose not to do it. Your child knows the 245 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,800 S2: truth about Christ and Christ's love for them. They're just 246 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,480 S2: not choosing to walk in it. But the second thing 247 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,320 S2: about that story that brought me so much hope was 248 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,160 S2: when God basically told Cain like, look, you're you're going 249 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:33,960 S2: to be exiled now. Um, God oversaw that exile in 250 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,200 S2: Cain's life. Uh, we're told that he put a mark 251 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:42,110 S2: of protection on Cain, and he preserved Cain's life, enabling 252 00:15:42,110 --> 00:15:45,950 S2: Cain at any moment to turn around and say, you 253 00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:49,350 S2: know what? What I did was wrong. I need to 254 00:15:49,350 --> 00:15:52,070 S2: follow the Lord. I need to go back to my family. 255 00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:54,510 S2: I think God is telling us in His word that 256 00:15:54,510 --> 00:15:56,830 S2: there is going to be a separation when one of 257 00:15:56,830 --> 00:16:01,390 S2: our children choose something apart from what is good and 258 00:16:01,390 --> 00:16:02,910 S2: right in the eyes of the Lord and the way 259 00:16:02,910 --> 00:16:06,110 S2: that we have trained them up as Christian mamas. There 260 00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:09,670 S2: is going to be an element of separation there. But 261 00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:14,470 S2: that separation holds purpose, and God is working in it. 262 00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:18,030 S2: And God has not left our child. Our child may 263 00:16:18,030 --> 00:16:20,630 S2: feel far from us, but they're never far from God. 264 00:16:20,630 --> 00:16:23,790 S2: His hand of protection is right there upon them. Uh, 265 00:16:23,790 --> 00:16:27,110 S2: as much in this separation as it is when they 266 00:16:27,110 --> 00:16:31,150 S2: were still in our own households and still under our care. Uh, 267 00:16:31,150 --> 00:16:34,510 S2: they have never left God's care. And that gives me 268 00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:38,180 S2: such great hope, because when I didn't always know what 269 00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:41,420 S2: was going on with our son. I knew that God knew, 270 00:16:41,420 --> 00:16:43,380 S2: and I knew that God was with him. And I 271 00:16:43,420 --> 00:16:48,660 S2: knew that God was orchestrating things in his life for purpose, 272 00:16:48,820 --> 00:16:51,740 S2: even if it felt hard to watch sometimes. 273 00:16:51,780 --> 00:16:56,260 S1: Yeah. If you hear nothing else from our conversation today 274 00:16:56,260 --> 00:17:00,380 S1: with Eric and hear, hear two things. Number one, you're 275 00:17:00,380 --> 00:17:03,780 S1: not alone. It may seem like you're the only person 276 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:09,740 S1: who's ever gone through this. You're not alone. Mom or dad. Um, 277 00:17:09,859 --> 00:17:12,940 S1: and the other thing is, you write this book is 278 00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:16,180 S1: a reminder that it is possible to stay connected to 279 00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:22,020 S1: God and your child in a season where both seem impossible. 280 00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:26,740 S1: So this conversation I feel like is, is really filled 281 00:17:27,020 --> 00:17:32,500 S1: with hope. And the, the struggle is you don't give 282 00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:36,180 S1: us the three steps or the five love languages to 283 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,480 S1: Nothing wrong with three steps in love languages, but we. 284 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,480 S1: What we want is the formula. And you're not giving 285 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,160 S1: us a formula in this book. You're giving us a relationship, right? 286 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:50,760 S3: Mhm. Mhm. 287 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,600 S2: Yeah. I'm really glad you said that, because I feel 288 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,439 S2: like that's where a lot of Christian moms get hung up, right? 289 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,959 S2: It's like I followed the formula and the formula didn't work. Um, 290 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,760 S2: and the reality is, is that the formula may very 291 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,200 S2: well have worked, and we just haven't seen the results 292 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,720 S2: of it yet. Uh, there are elements, there are elements 293 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,920 S2: in every child's life where we cannot, we cannot steal 294 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,200 S2: their testimony from them. God knows what he's doing in 295 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,000 S2: their lives. And if they have to walk a hard 296 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:31,080 S2: road or they have to experience a life choosing a 297 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,600 S2: life apart from God for a season in order to 298 00:18:34,750 --> 00:18:40,270 S2: truly understand the love of God for all seasons. Um, then. 299 00:18:40,270 --> 00:18:43,949 S2: Then we have to release our children and allow God 300 00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:47,189 S2: to do that. Uh, but I will say there is 301 00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:51,550 S2: one formula, Chris. There's one formula that is everybody's formula. 302 00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:54,510 S2: No matter what we're walking through in this life. And 303 00:18:54,510 --> 00:18:56,750 S2: that is we have to build our lives on the 304 00:18:56,750 --> 00:19:01,870 S2: foundation of the love and character of God. And even 305 00:19:01,869 --> 00:19:06,750 S2: when God seems silent in this situation, he's never absent. 306 00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:11,149 S2: And even when God allows our children to to make 307 00:19:11,150 --> 00:19:16,109 S2: these choices that are breaking our hearts, we ultimately know 308 00:19:16,109 --> 00:19:18,510 S2: what kind of God he is. He is a good 309 00:19:18,510 --> 00:19:22,910 S2: God who loves our children, who loves us, who longs 310 00:19:22,910 --> 00:19:27,150 S2: for families to be together. He created families. And so 311 00:19:27,910 --> 00:19:32,950 S2: anytime in Scripture, when God has these exile seasons in 312 00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:36,540 S2: the lives of his people. There's always purpose in it. 313 00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:41,780 S2: He always has a plan of moving them towards repentance 314 00:19:41,780 --> 00:19:46,659 S2: and and reconciliation with him and reconciliation with one another 315 00:19:46,660 --> 00:19:50,300 S2: and redemption. And so we can't stay stuck in this 316 00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:52,540 S2: part of the story, this bend in the road that 317 00:19:52,540 --> 00:19:56,060 S2: literally feels like it's going to break us. Um, we 318 00:19:56,060 --> 00:19:58,699 S2: have to keep our eyes on God. That is the 319 00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:01,500 S2: formula to keep our eyes on God, to keep our 320 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:05,580 S2: feet firmly planted in his character and the truth of 321 00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:10,619 S2: His word. God isn't finished with our family story yet. 322 00:20:10,660 --> 00:20:13,580 S2: I'm not on the other side where I have a neat, tidy, 323 00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:18,939 S2: wrapped up bow. I'm waiting in the trenches with you, Mama. Uh. 324 00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:21,780 S2: But what I do know is that God has not 325 00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:25,260 S2: forgotten you, and he's not forgotten your child. And there's 326 00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:30,980 S2: always hope and and pouring ourselves in relationship with him. 327 00:20:30,980 --> 00:20:32,180 S2: That's the formula. 328 00:20:36,530 --> 00:20:40,570 S1: Okay. That's Erica Wiggenhall. Even though she just broke it 329 00:20:40,570 --> 00:20:43,890 S1: up there a little bit. Loving your wayward child is 330 00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:46,609 S1: our featured resource, and I love it when she speaks 331 00:20:46,609 --> 00:20:50,050 S1: directly to the mama, because I know there's some mom 332 00:20:50,050 --> 00:20:53,250 S1: listening right now, and you are hanging on every word 333 00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:57,330 S1: because you need that hope. You want that reconciliation. Maybe 334 00:20:57,330 --> 00:21:00,850 S1: the no contact has come to you and you don't 335 00:21:00,850 --> 00:21:04,890 S1: know where to go. This is one of those resources 336 00:21:04,890 --> 00:21:08,130 S1: that will sink deeply. You'll come back to it, you'll 337 00:21:08,170 --> 00:21:11,649 S1: underline it. You'll pray through the sections of of the 338 00:21:11,650 --> 00:21:15,330 S1: book that she has. Look at the biblical, the people 339 00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:18,050 S1: that that populate the Bible who have gone through the 340 00:21:18,050 --> 00:21:22,490 S1: same kind of thing. Uh, it's Erica Horne's book, Loving 341 00:21:22,490 --> 00:21:25,810 S1: Your Wayward Child A Christian Guide to Stand in Faith 342 00:21:26,050 --> 00:21:31,560 S1: and Build Connection when their choices break your heart. Jan 343 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,480 S1: is in Cleveland, Ohio. Jan, why did you call today? 344 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,720 S4: Hi. I just want to give some encouragement to mamas 345 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,880 S4: and parents out there that might be feeling discouraged or 346 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,880 S4: cut off or without hope. Um, the Lord can do 347 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,720 S4: so much. And that's what we found out in our story. 348 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,680 S1: And, and what happened. Jan? 349 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,879 S4: Um, kind of like Eric has been talking. One of 350 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:05,440 S4: our kids chose a lifestyle that was very public, that 351 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:10,000 S4: was very painful, not wanting to, um, be with the 352 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,760 S4: rest of the family, be with us. And we were 353 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,240 S4: just very discouraged and confused. And the Lord broke through 354 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,719 S4: with the hope that nothing could stop us from loving them. 355 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,040 S4: And during that season of waiting for him to move, 356 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,510 S4: he showed us verses, um, to pray over them and 357 00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:35,710 S4: just worship him for what he wanted to do. And 358 00:22:35,950 --> 00:22:39,870 S4: about ten years later, now that same child is involved 359 00:22:39,869 --> 00:22:44,190 S4: in ministry using the story that they went through to 360 00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:49,110 S4: reach out to others. It has been fantastic. But during 361 00:22:49,109 --> 00:22:53,670 S4: those dark days, knowing that that's how we make him 362 00:22:53,670 --> 00:22:56,590 S4: feel when we sin or when we choose not to 363 00:22:56,590 --> 00:23:01,430 S4: be with him, and that we have the power of 364 00:23:01,430 --> 00:23:05,190 S4: His Holy Spirit to pray for them. And nothing could 365 00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:08,510 S4: stop us from loving them. That gave us an anchor 366 00:23:08,510 --> 00:23:12,350 S4: to hold on to during that crazy, stormy time. 367 00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:16,990 S1: Wow. Ten years and that is what you just described 368 00:23:16,990 --> 00:23:20,469 S1: then is not prescriptive. You know, if I do everything 369 00:23:20,470 --> 00:23:23,110 S1: that Jen just said, then at the end of that 370 00:23:23,109 --> 00:23:26,149 S1: ten years, then, you know, my son or my daughter 371 00:23:26,150 --> 00:23:29,060 S1: is going to have a testimony. That's why I know 372 00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:33,500 S1: that that may happen. It only happens because of God's 373 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:36,899 S1: work in your heart and in their heart. And I 374 00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:38,940 S1: want to get Erika to respond to that. Erika, do 375 00:23:38,940 --> 00:23:39,700 S1: you agree with that? 376 00:23:40,380 --> 00:23:44,540 S2: I would absolutely agree with that. I am so rejoicing 377 00:23:44,540 --> 00:23:47,100 S2: with you, and I pray that that that ends up 378 00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:52,100 S2: being the story of many, many listeners out there today. Uh, and, 379 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:56,500 S2: and I would, I would guess that you probably never 380 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:58,780 S2: stopped praying for your child, am I right? 381 00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:01,139 S4: Uh. That's right. 382 00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:04,740 S2: Yes. Prayer is so powerful. 383 00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:11,580 S4: Yeah. With your help, some days were incredibly difficult, confusing, discouraging. 384 00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:13,820 S4: But he was so faithful. 385 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:16,820 S5: Yeah. Here is here's what somebody. 386 00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:20,139 S1: Said on Facebook. Shawna said this. This is one way 387 00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:23,179 S1: to love your wayward child. Well, she said, always take 388 00:24:23,180 --> 00:24:27,649 S1: their call. Never close off the lines of communication and 389 00:24:27,650 --> 00:24:30,570 S1: end every phone call with I love you. And someone 390 00:24:30,570 --> 00:24:33,330 S1: responded to that and said, that's the best advice ever 391 00:24:33,570 --> 00:24:36,689 S1: to keep those lines of communication. You know, you're praying 392 00:24:36,690 --> 00:24:40,810 S1: for them every day in every way. But to be 393 00:24:40,810 --> 00:24:44,409 S1: able to, to pick up the phone or the text 394 00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:48,570 S1: or the email, whatever it is, and respond. Eric. Eric. 395 00:24:48,609 --> 00:24:50,370 S1: Is that really important? 396 00:24:52,369 --> 00:24:55,489 S2: It is. Chris. Um, I want to, I want to 397 00:24:55,490 --> 00:24:58,530 S2: talk though to a minute, just for a minute for 398 00:24:58,530 --> 00:25:00,490 S2: the mom out there that's maybe saying, well, that's great. 399 00:25:00,490 --> 00:25:03,369 S2: I would give anything to get a call from my child, 400 00:25:03,369 --> 00:25:05,649 S2: but they don't talk to me. They've completely cut me 401 00:25:05,650 --> 00:25:07,610 S2: out of their lives. What do I do? 402 00:25:07,850 --> 00:25:09,210 S5: Okay. Let me you want to hold that. 403 00:25:09,210 --> 00:25:11,770 S1: Right there because I don't have a minute before we 404 00:25:11,770 --> 00:25:13,490 S1: need to take a break. And I really want to 405 00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:16,290 S1: hear every bit of this. And so if that is 406 00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:18,810 S1: you and you're listening and you say, yes, I've been 407 00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:20,890 S1: cut out and I don't want to be cut out, 408 00:25:20,890 --> 00:25:24,890 S1: and I'd give anything to have a conversation with that 409 00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:29,160 S1: son or with that daughter. Maybe there are grandkids involved. 410 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,440 S1: I want you to listen to what Erica has to say. 411 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,560 S1: Straight ahead. This is Chris Fabry, live online. Chris Fabry, live.org. 412 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,840 S1: Our featured resource is her book, Loving Your Wayward Child 413 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,880 S1: A Christian Guide to Stand in Faith and Build Connection 414 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,720 S1: when their choices break your heart again, go to Chris. relevant.org. 415 00:25:50,920 --> 00:26:05,680 S1: More straight ahead. This is one of those hard conversations 416 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,800 S1: that will take you real deep, real fast. Erica Horn 417 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,879 S1: is joining us. As she said at the beginning of 418 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,880 S1: the program, we've talked about her Bible studies and had 419 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,239 S1: really good conversations about what Scripture says. This is a 420 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,879 S1: little bit different, Lane. She's still talking about what Scripture says, 421 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,949 S1: but it's this deep wound, this this heartbreak of loving 422 00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:33,030 S1: your wayward child. That's our featured resource at Chris Fabry live.org. 423 00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:36,550 S1: It's going to be a balm to somebody's heart. Just 424 00:26:36,550 --> 00:26:39,350 S1: this conversation and the book will take you even deeper. 425 00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:44,270 S1: Loving your wayward child. Go to Chris Fabry live.org. And 426 00:26:44,270 --> 00:26:46,470 S1: part of the reason why you wrote this is how 427 00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:48,830 S1: many women came up to you and talked about the 428 00:26:48,869 --> 00:26:53,710 S1: no contact. So jump in the deep end of that pool. Erica. 429 00:26:54,590 --> 00:26:57,310 S2: Yeah. Well, you know, we talked about this a little 430 00:26:57,310 --> 00:27:01,430 S2: bit already when whenever there is some sort of sin, right? 431 00:27:01,430 --> 00:27:04,629 S2: Whenever your child's making choices that are breaking your heart, 432 00:27:04,670 --> 00:27:07,910 S2: chances are they're also making choices that are breaking God's heart. 433 00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:10,790 S2: And whenever there's an element of sin, it's always going 434 00:27:10,830 --> 00:27:15,389 S2: to cause some level of separation. And we sense that 435 00:27:15,390 --> 00:27:18,430 S2: as moms, and that is what grieves us because we 436 00:27:18,430 --> 00:27:23,179 S2: want to be close to our children. Um, but so 437 00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:27,580 S2: many moms are experiencing this where the relationship just sort 438 00:27:27,619 --> 00:27:30,820 S2: of falls off the face of the earth, if you will, 439 00:27:30,859 --> 00:27:33,179 S2: because they don't want to talk to mom about the 440 00:27:33,180 --> 00:27:35,700 S2: choices that they're making. And some have gone so far 441 00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:39,620 S2: to just say, you know, they've blocked their mom from 442 00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:44,260 S2: their phone and email and, and all the things. Um, 443 00:27:44,619 --> 00:27:47,660 S2: one of the things that we have done in, uh, 444 00:27:47,660 --> 00:27:50,699 S2: writing loving your Wayward Child is we talk about a 445 00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:54,540 S2: concept called making bids for connection. And this became so 446 00:27:54,540 --> 00:28:00,180 S2: powerful for me when our son was literally, we didn't 447 00:28:00,180 --> 00:28:02,940 S2: even know where he was. Honestly, Chris, he was from 448 00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:06,820 S2: place to place to place. And, uh, we had very 449 00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:10,619 S2: little and base contact with him. And it was basically like, 450 00:28:10,660 --> 00:28:12,300 S2: you know, when we'd get a call in the middle 451 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:14,940 S2: of the night from an emergency room or something like that, 452 00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:17,260 S2: that was the extent of our contact. And I came 453 00:28:17,260 --> 00:28:21,690 S2: across this in my research of making bids for connection. 454 00:28:22,890 --> 00:28:28,250 S2: And it it's essentially ways to reach out to your child, 455 00:28:28,250 --> 00:28:32,450 S2: to just communicate that you are wanting connection with them, 456 00:28:32,450 --> 00:28:34,930 S2: that you're thinking about them, that you care about them, 457 00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:39,250 S2: that you love them with very little expectation of them 458 00:28:39,250 --> 00:28:43,210 S2: to respond in any type of certain way in return. Um, 459 00:28:43,250 --> 00:28:45,610 S2: and this is hard for us as moms because we 460 00:28:45,610 --> 00:28:49,650 S2: pretty much spend our whole lives, uh, choosing communication with 461 00:28:49,650 --> 00:28:51,850 S2: our kids because we're trying to point them in a 462 00:28:51,850 --> 00:28:55,130 S2: direction or get them to move from point A to 463 00:28:55,170 --> 00:29:00,770 S2: point B. This is, this is conversation that centers solely 464 00:29:00,770 --> 00:29:06,290 S2: around connection, solely around relationship building. And the first several 465 00:29:06,290 --> 00:29:10,170 S2: times that I made a bid for connection, uh, I 466 00:29:10,330 --> 00:29:14,250 S2: got no response. He didn't even answer me. Uh, and 467 00:29:14,250 --> 00:29:17,130 S2: I remember one particular time, one of the things we 468 00:29:17,130 --> 00:29:19,570 S2: talk about in loving your wayward child is make a 469 00:29:19,570 --> 00:29:23,960 S2: bid for connection by centering the conversation around a positive 470 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,000 S2: shared memory. And it happened to pop up on my phone. 471 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,920 S2: A picture in the memories real thing of of a 472 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,320 S2: vacation that we had gone on when he was about 473 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,880 S2: eight years old. And on that vacation, he had been 474 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,000 S2: able to ride on the back of a dolphin, and 475 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,520 S2: he just absolutely squealed with delight. And a picture of 476 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,560 S2: that popped up and I sent it to him and 477 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,880 S2: I said, this popped up in my photo memories today 478 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,640 S2: and it made me smile. I could still hear that 479 00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,560 S2: squeal of delight that you made as the dolphin was 480 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,840 S2: swimming across the water. It just made. This memory made 481 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,200 S2: my day and I wanted to share it with you. 482 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,080 S2: I love you, mom. And that was the first time 483 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,360 S2: that he responded to that bid for connection. Wow. And 484 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,940 S2: I actually got a text back. Um, Uh, but it's important. 485 00:30:20,940 --> 00:30:23,220 S2: One of the things that we can do as moms 486 00:30:23,220 --> 00:30:27,300 S2: is learn how to communicate in a way that tells 487 00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:31,420 S2: our son or tells our daughter, I'm not looking for 488 00:30:31,420 --> 00:30:34,820 S2: a right answer here. I'm not trying to get you 489 00:30:34,820 --> 00:30:39,180 S2: to do something that I want. I just want to 490 00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:41,940 S2: connect with you and remind you that I love you. 491 00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:45,459 S2: And I'm always thinking about you, and you're important to me. 492 00:30:45,740 --> 00:30:48,660 S2: So that is an art of conversation. Yes. 493 00:30:48,980 --> 00:30:51,420 S5: Yes. Letting go of the strings. Because what I hear. 494 00:30:51,420 --> 00:30:55,460 S1: From a lot of parents, especially the no contact for 495 00:30:55,460 --> 00:30:59,780 S1: a while and their grandkids involved, is I don't understand, 496 00:30:59,780 --> 00:31:02,900 S1: and I want them to help me understand. I need 497 00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:06,380 S1: them to tell me, what did I do? You know, 498 00:31:06,420 --> 00:31:10,100 S1: that kind of thing. And that is there's strings there. 499 00:31:10,420 --> 00:31:14,300 S1: This is this is much less of you need to 500 00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:18,890 S1: do this and much more. Hey, I'm thinking about you. Uh, 501 00:31:18,890 --> 00:31:22,250 S1: here's here's here's what's going on in my soul. Love 502 00:31:22,250 --> 00:31:22,890 S1: you son. 503 00:31:22,930 --> 00:31:27,010 S2: Right, right, right. Absolutely. And, you know, one of the 504 00:31:27,010 --> 00:31:30,490 S2: things that's really fascinating when we look at Paul's letter 505 00:31:30,490 --> 00:31:35,850 S2: to Ephesians, we love to jump right to Ephesians six, right? 506 00:31:35,890 --> 00:31:38,690 S2: And it's like, put on your armor and you know 507 00:31:39,010 --> 00:31:43,570 S2: all of this, but we jump there and we skip 508 00:31:43,610 --> 00:31:47,330 S2: what Paul tells us in the preceding chapters in his letter. 509 00:31:47,330 --> 00:31:52,130 S2: And he essentially informs us that the arenas, the main 510 00:31:52,130 --> 00:31:56,610 S2: arenas where we're going to face spiritual opposition, it's going 511 00:31:56,610 --> 00:32:00,969 S2: to be in our marriages and in our homes. Those 512 00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:04,250 S2: are the the primary places. And then Paul breaks it 513 00:32:04,250 --> 00:32:08,010 S2: down even further and he says, parents, this is this 514 00:32:08,010 --> 00:32:12,050 S2: is the arena where it's going to happen with you 515 00:32:12,050 --> 00:32:16,280 S2: in your relationship with your children. And one of those main, 516 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,320 S2: main ways that the enemy operates is he is going 517 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:28,920 S2: to make the children exasperated with the parents. Uh, and 518 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,720 S2: so we have to realize that whether that's our intent 519 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,480 S2: to exasperate them or not, they have bought into this enticement, 520 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,720 S2: this deception of the enemy, that every communication that we're 521 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,720 S2: coming at them with has some sort of an agenda 522 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,840 S2: behind it. Now, we, as mom, know that's not always true. 523 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,360 S2: Sometimes it is true, let's be honest. But it's not 524 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,880 S2: always true. Sometimes we're just like, I love you and 525 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,720 S2: I want to be with you. Uh, but they are 526 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,240 S2: hearing that lie every time we're reaching out and communicating 527 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,960 S2: with them. And so the biggest way that we can 528 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,000 S2: break that lie and break that perception is to learn 529 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,880 S2: how to communicate with our child in a way that 530 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,750 S2: says there are no expectations here. This is just me 531 00:33:17,790 --> 00:33:22,070 S2: wanting to say I love you. And there's an. It's 532 00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:24,790 S2: a process to learn. Uh, it was definitely a process 533 00:33:24,790 --> 00:33:26,670 S2: for me to learn, but we talk about it a 534 00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:29,270 S2: lot in Loving Your Wayward Child. And I think it's 535 00:33:29,270 --> 00:33:34,830 S2: a really big key to rebuilding some of those broken relationships. 536 00:33:35,390 --> 00:33:40,310 S1: I think you have just helped frame Ephesians two eight 537 00:33:40,350 --> 00:33:45,230 S1: through ten differently than I've ever heard it. Meaning, I've 538 00:33:45,230 --> 00:33:48,790 S1: always looked at your say by grace through faith. It's 539 00:33:48,790 --> 00:33:52,350 S1: not of yourself. It's God's gift, not you can't work 540 00:33:52,350 --> 00:33:55,910 S1: for it. Nobody can boast. For we are his creation, 541 00:33:55,910 --> 00:34:01,190 S1: his workmanship, his poems created in Christ Jesus for good works, 542 00:34:01,630 --> 00:34:03,910 S1: which God prepared ahead of time so that we could 543 00:34:03,910 --> 00:34:06,550 S1: walk in them. So if that really is true, and 544 00:34:06,550 --> 00:34:09,189 S1: if God is sovereign over everything in our lives, then 545 00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:15,500 S1: this wayward child's choices Those choices are providing me an 546 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:21,459 S1: opportunity to do what God has prepared in advance for 547 00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:26,340 S1: me to do to love that wayward child. And he's 548 00:34:26,340 --> 00:34:32,060 S1: even using the rebellion for my good and his glory. 549 00:34:32,580 --> 00:34:33,540 S1: Does that make sense? 550 00:34:34,219 --> 00:34:36,779 S2: Yeah, it does make sense. That does make sense. And 551 00:34:36,780 --> 00:34:39,779 S2: it's really hard to wrap our minds around that sometimes, 552 00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:44,260 S2: isn't it? Especially when we're hurting. When we're hurting, it's 553 00:34:44,260 --> 00:34:48,860 S2: so hard to be able to move our thoughts and 554 00:34:48,860 --> 00:34:53,700 S2: move our, our understanding of our circumstances into something that 555 00:34:53,700 --> 00:34:57,900 S2: is greater and beyond what we are facing when we 556 00:34:57,940 --> 00:35:01,180 S2: are sitting in the pain. And that's one of the 557 00:35:01,180 --> 00:35:06,460 S2: things that I wanted to really help moms do. Chris, 558 00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:11,300 S2: in Loving Your Wayward Child is to open up specific 559 00:35:11,489 --> 00:35:16,490 S2: scriptures and look at very specific stories of God and 560 00:35:16,489 --> 00:35:21,330 S2: be reminded that that God is so much bigger than 561 00:35:21,330 --> 00:35:26,010 S2: this moment. Uh, one of the stories that just really, 562 00:35:26,010 --> 00:35:31,489 S2: really struck me is in Joshua, when they're getting ready 563 00:35:31,489 --> 00:35:34,410 S2: to cross over into the promised land and God, you know, 564 00:35:34,450 --> 00:35:37,370 S2: basically says like, okay, you're going to get 12 guys 565 00:35:37,370 --> 00:35:39,450 S2: and they're going to get 12 big stones, and they're 566 00:35:39,450 --> 00:35:41,170 S2: going to stack these big stones on the other side 567 00:35:41,170 --> 00:35:43,450 S2: of the river, and it's going to be a memorial 568 00:35:43,450 --> 00:35:47,410 S2: for all time. And right before you're going to do this, Joshua, 569 00:35:47,410 --> 00:35:50,250 S2: I need you to know that at this moment when 570 00:35:50,250 --> 00:35:52,810 S2: this happens and I dry up the river, this is 571 00:35:52,810 --> 00:35:55,890 S2: going to be the moment that I exalt you in 572 00:35:55,890 --> 00:35:58,529 S2: front of the people of Israel, and you are going 573 00:35:58,570 --> 00:36:04,050 S2: to be esteemed, you know, as as Moses 2.0, Joshua. 574 00:36:04,090 --> 00:36:06,490 S2: This this is what this time is that's coming for you. 575 00:36:07,050 --> 00:36:10,799 S2: And in the middle of that, when you read that story. 576 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,919 S2: It appears that Joshua has his own stone stacking moment 577 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,040 S2: where he takes stones and he puts them in the 578 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,080 S2: middle of the Jordan, uh, while the ground is dry. 579 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,320 S2: And I thought to myself, well, that's really interesting. Like, 580 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,480 S2: why would God ask Joshua to do that? Because the 581 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,439 S2: water is going to come back. Nobody's going to know 582 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,800 S2: the stones that are there and what is happening here. 583 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,120 S2: And I think when you look at that, that one 584 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:44,640 S2: little snapshot in the whole story of Joshua's life, God 585 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,120 S2: wanted Joshua to have that special moment with him, to 586 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,040 S2: be reminded that God had chosen him. He had chosen 587 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,000 S2: him for this task, and he had chosen him to 588 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,120 S2: be the leader of his people. And, and Joshua was 589 00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,800 S2: going to get on the other side of that river, 590 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,120 S2: and he was going to make some really big mistakes. Uh, 591 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,920 S2: but he was going to follow the Lord. Uh, his 592 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,950 S2: whole life. And I think that there's such a lesson 593 00:37:11,110 --> 00:37:14,950 S2: for us in that Chris's moms, because we have literally 594 00:37:14,950 --> 00:37:21,069 S2: stacked stones, uh, years and years of stacking stones in 595 00:37:21,070 --> 00:37:27,150 S2: our child's life. And they might appear buried under waves 596 00:37:27,150 --> 00:37:31,350 S2: of time. And we've made mistakes and there's things that 597 00:37:31,350 --> 00:37:33,589 S2: we wish we could have done differently or things that 598 00:37:33,590 --> 00:37:35,950 S2: we wish we could do over. But the reality is, 599 00:37:35,989 --> 00:37:40,230 S2: is that just like God chose Joshua, God chose you 600 00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:43,989 S2: to be your child's mom, and God chose me to 601 00:37:44,030 --> 00:37:47,430 S2: be my child's mom. And the good work that we 602 00:37:47,469 --> 00:37:51,110 S2: have done in, in following the Lord in that call 603 00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:54,950 S2: has not been forgotten. It's not been forgotten by God. 604 00:37:54,950 --> 00:38:00,310 S2: And he rewards good work. And so we can, we 605 00:38:00,350 --> 00:38:03,750 S2: can understand that that two things can be true at 606 00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:07,310 S2: the same time. We can be good moms and still 607 00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:12,299 S2: have children that make bad choices sometimes. And the reality is, 608 00:38:12,340 --> 00:38:16,580 S2: is that all of God's kids make bad choices sometimes. 609 00:38:17,860 --> 00:38:20,500 S2: But that doesn't mean that God is not with us. 610 00:38:20,860 --> 00:38:24,339 S1: And if you were in that wilderness, I'm hoping that 611 00:38:24,340 --> 00:38:28,620 S1: you hear the hope and Erica's voice today. Loving Your 612 00:38:28,620 --> 00:38:31,660 S1: Wayward Child is our featured resource at the website Chris 613 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:37,500 S1: Fabry live.org. Chris Fabry Live for a Christian Guide to 614 00:38:37,540 --> 00:38:41,380 S1: stand in faith and build connection when their choices break 615 00:38:41,420 --> 00:38:44,340 S1: your heart. So if that's where you are at. One 616 00:38:44,340 --> 00:38:48,580 S1: segment left. More questions for Erica coming up straight ahead 617 00:38:48,620 --> 00:39:01,580 S1: on Moody Radio. Erica is the first person I've ever 618 00:39:01,580 --> 00:39:06,770 S1: heard say enabling cane. I wrote that down when she 619 00:39:06,770 --> 00:39:10,690 S1: said it was like, I've never heard a cane enabling cane. 620 00:39:10,890 --> 00:39:14,850 S1: She's written a book titled Loving Your Wayward Child, and 621 00:39:14,850 --> 00:39:17,610 S1: Anne is on the line. Anne, tell me your situation. 622 00:39:19,610 --> 00:39:23,650 S6: Um, I've got a daughter who looks like she's going 623 00:39:23,650 --> 00:39:26,290 S6: back to her drug boyfriend. 624 00:39:26,850 --> 00:39:27,250 S1: Mhm. 625 00:39:27,489 --> 00:39:32,810 S6: And, uh, it causes strife in my marriage. 626 00:39:35,330 --> 00:39:39,050 S1: And your heart's breaking over her and her choices. And 627 00:39:39,050 --> 00:39:44,330 S1: your husband is, uh, he's he's ready to. Just not. Yeah, 628 00:39:44,330 --> 00:39:47,130 S1: he's angry and ready to give up, right? 629 00:39:48,090 --> 00:39:49,850 S6: Yes. Yeah. Yes. 630 00:39:50,530 --> 00:39:53,810 S1: Okay. So, Erica, what would you say to Anne? 631 00:39:55,210 --> 00:39:59,930 S2: Yeah. Uh, is your daughter asking you for help? Anne? 632 00:39:59,969 --> 00:40:04,730 S2: Is she. You're just wanting to maintain contact with her 633 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:09,200 S2: and her and your husband is not. Can you explain 634 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,480 S2: a little bit more, please? 635 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:16,440 S6: She is. Um. I'm her guardian. Her legal guardian because 636 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,640 S6: she has, um, learning disabilities and, uh, skills that she 637 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:31,400 S6: can't attain. And so. I, I feel like I'm in 638 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,000 S6: the middle, but I don't know exactly how to. 639 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,200 S2: Say, and. 640 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,960 S6: I don't want to enable it. Yes. 641 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:41,520 S3: Mhm. 642 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,479 S2: Yeah. That's that's so hard. Uh, we talked about this 643 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,719 S2: a little bit. I, I think it was in, uh, 644 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,440 S2: segment two, it sounds like you and your husband are 645 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,680 S2: in different stages of the grief process. He's very much 646 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,360 S2: in the angry stage. Uh, you're maybe more in the 647 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,299 S2: bargaining stage or, or the despair stage. I certainly don't 648 00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:06,180 S2: want to put words in your mouth, but one of 649 00:41:06,180 --> 00:41:08,940 S2: the things is to recognize that you are in two 650 00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:14,020 S2: different stages of the grief process. The second thing that 651 00:41:14,020 --> 00:41:16,899 S2: I think would be really helpful is for you and 652 00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:19,859 S2: your husband to sit down together and maybe come up 653 00:41:19,860 --> 00:41:24,339 S2: with help with a plan so that you can be 654 00:41:24,340 --> 00:41:27,980 S2: in agreement of what it looks like to actually help 655 00:41:27,980 --> 00:41:32,660 S2: your daughter without enabling your daughter. Uh, and you may 656 00:41:32,660 --> 00:41:37,740 S2: need to bring a third party into this discussion with 657 00:41:37,739 --> 00:41:42,700 S2: you to keep it focused on, uh, a good outcome 658 00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:45,900 S2: and actually walk away with a plan, whether maybe it's a, 659 00:41:45,940 --> 00:41:50,380 S2: a trusted family member or a pastor or a biblical 660 00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:55,700 S2: counselor or something like that. Um, one of the things that, uh, 661 00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:59,379 S2: my husband and I had to do was we did 662 00:41:59,380 --> 00:42:04,730 S2: have to bring in a third Party person, uh, sometimes 663 00:42:04,730 --> 00:42:07,410 S2: to help us really sort through things and make sure 664 00:42:07,410 --> 00:42:11,290 S2: that we weren't making decisions just out of an emotional reaction, 665 00:42:11,290 --> 00:42:15,169 S2: but what was going to actually be helpful. And then 666 00:42:15,170 --> 00:42:18,570 S2: we came up with certain plans. I'll give you an example. Uh, 667 00:42:18,969 --> 00:42:22,850 S2: our son is currently in a situation where he needs 668 00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:27,370 S2: a vehicle. He needs a car. But historically, uh, anytime 669 00:42:27,370 --> 00:42:30,930 S2: that we've given our son money, um, it ends up 670 00:42:30,930 --> 00:42:36,370 S2: being used for purposes that we don't agree with. And 671 00:42:36,370 --> 00:42:38,410 S2: the money just sort of ends up going down the 672 00:42:38,530 --> 00:42:41,689 S2: the drain rather than actually helping him in any way 673 00:42:41,730 --> 00:42:44,570 S2: long term. So one of the things that my husband 674 00:42:44,570 --> 00:42:47,930 S2: and I agreed on was that we would tell him 675 00:42:48,130 --> 00:42:52,290 S2: to save a certain amount of money. And once he 676 00:42:52,330 --> 00:42:55,529 S2: saved a certain amount of money on his own, we 677 00:42:55,530 --> 00:43:00,129 S2: would match it and then enable him to get the vehicle. 678 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,960 S2: but he had to do the work first. So that 679 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,399 S2: became our help with the plan. Like, uh, we're here 680 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,720 S2: to help you. We want to help you. We want 681 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,320 S2: to see you succeed. We need you to do this first, 682 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,720 S2: and then we will come alongside of you and bring 683 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,240 S2: you over to the other end of the finish line. 684 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,640 S2: So maybe having some of those conversations with your husband 685 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,120 S2: as far as what does he need to see your 686 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,440 S2: daughter doing in order to feel comfortable coming alongside of 687 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,400 S2: her and continuing to help her. 688 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,839 S1: And hang on? And I want you to get a 689 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,560 S1: copy of the book, and we're going to send that 690 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,640 S1: to you. So Tricia will get your information or Lisa will. Um, 691 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,279 S1: but Erica, would it help? And as I'm just kind 692 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,520 S1: of processing what you've said. Would it help Anne to 693 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,560 S1: be able to move toward her husband with that third party? 694 00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,910 S1: Or not to say I, I really understand your anger 695 00:44:00,910 --> 00:44:05,670 S1: and I, I, I've, I'm there or I've been there before. 696 00:44:05,790 --> 00:44:08,750 S1: So it's like, like we're feeling some of the same 697 00:44:08,750 --> 00:44:13,550 S1: things so that you, you're not pushing him away for 698 00:44:13,550 --> 00:44:15,990 S1: being angry. What do you think of that? 699 00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:20,870 S2: Yeah, I think it's really important that that your husband 700 00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:25,550 S2: feels like you're on his team and that it that 701 00:44:25,550 --> 00:44:32,029 S2: his feelings and his perceptions and perspective are equally, if 702 00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:34,630 S2: not more important to you. Really, they should be more 703 00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:38,830 S2: important to you than your feelings towards your daughter, because 704 00:44:38,830 --> 00:44:43,710 S2: that marriage unit is, is foundational. And if that marriage 705 00:44:43,710 --> 00:44:47,790 S2: unit is fractured and you are both approaching your daughter 706 00:44:48,150 --> 00:44:51,750 S2: from different places, you're not really going to be able 707 00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:56,270 S2: to offer her a solid, godly help because neither of 708 00:44:56,270 --> 00:44:59,859 S2: you are operating from a place where you've prioritized your 709 00:44:59,860 --> 00:45:03,340 S2: marriage first. So I think it I think it needs 710 00:45:03,340 --> 00:45:06,900 S2: to start with saying to your husband, help me understand 711 00:45:06,900 --> 00:45:10,700 S2: where you're coming from. Help me understand what you're feeling 712 00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:14,900 S2: and what you're thinking and what your concerns are and 713 00:45:14,940 --> 00:45:17,819 S2: apprehensions are, so that you and I can be on 714 00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:21,100 S2: the same page because that's really, really important to me. 715 00:45:21,420 --> 00:45:25,300 S1: Yeah. Because the hope here is that the wayward child's 716 00:45:25,460 --> 00:45:32,620 S1: waywardness doesn't destroy the marriage, that it does the opposite, 717 00:45:32,660 --> 00:45:35,779 S1: that it makes you that one one team together. I 718 00:45:35,780 --> 00:45:38,500 S1: know it sounds like it's very far away from being 719 00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:41,739 S1: that way right now. I'm so sorry for what you're 720 00:45:41,739 --> 00:45:44,340 S1: going through. And. But as I said a little earlier, 721 00:45:44,540 --> 00:45:47,420 S1: you are not alone, friend. You are not alone. There's 722 00:45:47,420 --> 00:45:49,939 S1: a lot of people and just you sharing what you've 723 00:45:49,940 --> 00:45:55,260 S1: shared here today has given somebody that realization that an 724 00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:57,850 S1: is is going through the same thing type of thing 725 00:45:57,850 --> 00:46:00,890 S1: that I'm going through. Eric, I can't thank you enough 726 00:46:00,890 --> 00:46:04,730 S1: for putting this book together, for doing the hard work 727 00:46:04,730 --> 00:46:09,290 S1: of putting your life through that sieve and allowing God 728 00:46:09,290 --> 00:46:11,730 S1: to give you the, the hope that he can give 729 00:46:11,770 --> 00:46:13,649 S1: in the middle. You're still in the middle of it. 730 00:46:13,969 --> 00:46:15,810 S1: Come back and see us real soon, okay? 731 00:46:16,650 --> 00:46:18,450 S2: Okay. Thank you. Chris. 732 00:46:18,969 --> 00:46:23,490 S1: Eric Einhorn has written Loving Your Wayward Child A Christian 733 00:46:23,489 --> 00:46:25,890 S1: Guide to Stand in Faith and Build Connection when their 734 00:46:25,890 --> 00:46:35,170 S1: choices break your heart. Featured resource@chris.org. Chris Fabry live.org. Tomorrow 735 00:46:35,170 --> 00:46:38,009 S1: on the program. 40 years ago, he came up with 736 00:46:38,010 --> 00:46:42,650 S1: a story. He's coming back again. Mr. Frank Peretti right 737 00:46:42,650 --> 00:46:45,850 S1: here on Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a 738 00:46:45,850 --> 00:46:47,970 S1: Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.