1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,760 S1: What does it mean to be a man? Is masculinity 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,880 S1: something to run from or run toward? In our culture today, 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:18,840 S1: masculinity is something to emasculate, to weaken, to remove or 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,840 S1: deprive from a man so that he fits better into society. 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,000 S1: But what does God say about that? If you are 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,840 S1: a man, are you running toward your masculinity or running 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:35,920 S1: away from it? And what is authentic masculinity rather than 8 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,240 S1: fake masculinity? Some answers today at the Radio Backyard Fence 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,040 S1: as we welcome author and pastor Seth Trout to the program. 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,040 S1: There's real freedom ahead, I believe. So let's get started 11 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,159 S1: first with a thank you. Ryan McConaughey is doing all 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,080 S1: things technical. Trish is our producer. Lisa is helping out. 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,120 S1: Josh will be answering your calls. And I also want 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:57,959 S1: to thank those of you who have joined with us 15 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,180 S1: this month here on Chris Fabry Live to celebrate 100 16 00:01:01,180 --> 00:01:04,820 S1: years of Moody Radio. Can you believe it? 100 years. 17 00:01:04,819 --> 00:01:07,899 S1: I have two more programs for you this week that 18 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:10,100 S1: I think are going to really encourage you about what 19 00:01:10,140 --> 00:01:13,860 S1: God has done. Through the broadcast medium of radio. We're 20 00:01:13,860 --> 00:01:18,100 S1: going to focus on evangelism with Ron Hutchcraft on Wednesday. 21 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:22,020 S1: On Thursday, I've got some friends who were in radio 22 00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:25,819 S1: drama back in the back in the day, and I 23 00:01:25,819 --> 00:01:28,780 S1: want you to hear from them. Our gift this month, 24 00:01:28,780 --> 00:01:31,340 S1: all this month, is a new book that shows the 25 00:01:31,340 --> 00:01:34,300 S1: faces of the voices you've heard through the decades up 26 00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:37,979 S1: to the present day. This is Moody radio 100 years 27 00:01:37,980 --> 00:01:42,179 S1: proclaiming the gospel. If you go to Chris Fabry live.org 28 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:44,819 S1: and scroll down, you'll see the book by Kevin Mullins 29 00:01:44,819 --> 00:01:48,260 S1: and Phil Shapard right there. Give a gift. We'd love 30 00:01:48,260 --> 00:01:52,300 S1: to send you this celebratory book. I love what Andre 31 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:54,820 S1: said last week. He said I wanted to get the 32 00:01:54,820 --> 00:01:58,510 S1: book to share with my kids. So he is telling 33 00:01:58,510 --> 00:02:02,910 S1: the next generation about what God has done. Let me 34 00:02:02,950 --> 00:02:06,510 S1: send you a copy. Go to Chris Fabry, FABRY. Chris 35 00:02:06,550 --> 00:02:12,510 S1: Fabry live.org. Or you write this number down 86695. Fabry. 36 00:02:12,550 --> 00:02:17,109 S1: The actual anniversary is in eight days, July 28th. And 37 00:02:17,110 --> 00:02:20,470 S1: I'm really glad for the women of Moody Radio who've 38 00:02:20,470 --> 00:02:23,350 S1: worked through the years. But with today's topic, the men 39 00:02:23,950 --> 00:02:27,270 S1: who were servant leaders, the men who stayed true to 40 00:02:27,310 --> 00:02:31,310 S1: the original vision of Moody Radio a hundred years ago 41 00:02:31,310 --> 00:02:34,270 S1: as a gospel light to the nation. And if you 42 00:02:34,270 --> 00:02:36,510 S1: read the book, you're going to see the reach of 43 00:02:36,550 --> 00:02:39,070 S1: Moody Radio as more than just a signal from an 44 00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:42,870 S1: antenna to your car radio or to your headset. Today, 45 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:46,150 S1: it is a matter of the heart. And really what 46 00:02:46,150 --> 00:02:48,389 S1: I think one of the part of the secret sauce 47 00:02:48,389 --> 00:02:52,269 S1: of Moody Radio is to be able to tell you 48 00:02:52,270 --> 00:02:56,550 S1: about some things, resources that you might need or somebody 49 00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:59,760 S1: you know might need that you might not know about 50 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,040 S1: any other way. So listen, today, if you give a 51 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:11,520 S1: gift@kris.org or at that number (866) 953-2279, we will send you 52 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,320 S1: this beautifully illustrated photographs and here are just fantastic. Go 53 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,639 S1: to Chris Fabry live.org. Seth Trout is the teaching pastor 54 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,800 S1: at Ironwood Church in the Phoenix metro area. He holds 55 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,360 S1: a doctorate focused on digital technology, Gen Z, and gender identity. 56 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,720 S1: He's an alumnus of Arizona State University. I told him 57 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,800 S1: last time, I'm not going to hold that against him 58 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,880 S1: because I'm down here in the land of U of A, uh, 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,240 S1: a graduate of Phoenix Seminary, Covenant Seminary. He and his 60 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,880 S1: wife have been married for about 13 years. They have 61 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:52,360 S1: two children and are featured resource. Is the book Authentic Masculinity. 62 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,000 S1: Doctor trout, welcome back. How are you doing today? 63 00:03:55,700 --> 00:03:57,780 S2: Thanks for having me, Chris. I'm doing pretty well. 64 00:03:58,540 --> 00:04:00,860 S1: I am. I'm so glad to talk with you about 65 00:04:00,860 --> 00:04:06,420 S1: this because over the weekend I was seeing all of this. News, 66 00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:10,740 S1: all the news stories that come about the Tate brothers 67 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:14,420 S1: and what's going on there and the way that they 68 00:04:14,460 --> 00:04:17,940 S1: live their life, and now they're in trouble. Uh, and 69 00:04:17,980 --> 00:04:21,580 S1: not that they weren't before, but they're in more trouble. 70 00:04:21,860 --> 00:04:24,900 S1: And so you see that going on in the culture. 71 00:04:24,900 --> 00:04:28,339 S1: And then you also see the toxic masculinity and the 72 00:04:28,380 --> 00:04:31,900 S1: pushback toward that. And so let me just ask you 73 00:04:31,940 --> 00:04:35,100 S1: the general question. Why do you feel like you wanted 74 00:04:35,100 --> 00:04:36,340 S1: to write about this? 75 00:04:37,020 --> 00:04:40,860 S2: Well, ironically, those Tate brothers were part of the impetus 76 00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:43,779 S2: for this is a couple of the eighth grade boys 77 00:04:43,779 --> 00:04:46,060 S2: at my church were all standing around in a circle 78 00:04:46,060 --> 00:04:49,460 S2: at winter camp, kind of giggling about something, and I 79 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:50,620 S2: walked up to him. I was like, what are you 80 00:04:50,620 --> 00:04:53,820 S2: guys talking about? And they were all avoidant and weird, 81 00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:56,750 S2: And they showed me this video they're watching from this 82 00:04:56,750 --> 00:05:00,710 S2: Andrew Tate character, and they thought it was funny because 83 00:05:00,710 --> 00:05:03,230 S2: of how outlandish he is. He says a lot of 84 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:06,390 S2: stuff that I'm on board with, like, don't be a loser. 85 00:05:06,390 --> 00:05:09,550 S2: Quit smoking weed, get out of your mom's basement, work hard. 86 00:05:09,790 --> 00:05:11,630 S2: And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds great. And 87 00:05:11,630 --> 00:05:13,469 S2: then he promotes what I would call is like a 88 00:05:13,470 --> 00:05:17,310 S2: Genghis Khan vision of masculinity. You need to spread your 89 00:05:17,310 --> 00:05:20,230 S2: genetic legacy and have kids with as many women as possible. 90 00:05:20,230 --> 00:05:24,190 S2: And marriage is a trap designed to domesticate men who 91 00:05:24,190 --> 00:05:26,870 S2: are supposed to be wild. And you know, he himself 92 00:05:26,870 --> 00:05:29,750 S2: is a huge abuser. But even hearing these eighth grade 93 00:05:29,750 --> 00:05:32,789 S2: boys raised up in church who were going, I mean, 94 00:05:32,790 --> 00:05:36,270 S2: I think what he says is pretty good. And I went, what? Oh, 95 00:05:36,310 --> 00:05:41,430 S2: wait a minute. And just the, the, the toxic, poisonous, 96 00:05:41,790 --> 00:05:47,270 S2: woman hating woman objectifying vision of masculinity that's put forth 97 00:05:47,270 --> 00:05:50,390 S2: to young men by their algorithms really broke my heart. 98 00:05:50,390 --> 00:05:54,210 S2: And these are church young men who have most of 99 00:05:54,210 --> 00:05:56,210 S2: them fathers in the home, and yet they are still 100 00:05:56,210 --> 00:06:00,849 S2: led astray by the algorithm and the outlandish stuff. And 101 00:06:00,850 --> 00:06:03,130 S2: so the impetus to write this book kind of began 102 00:06:03,130 --> 00:06:05,770 S2: with my heart breaking for these eighth grade young men 103 00:06:06,210 --> 00:06:09,250 S2: and their fathers, who were obviously ill equipped to prepare 104 00:06:09,250 --> 00:06:11,409 S2: them for what the world was going to serve them up. 105 00:06:12,170 --> 00:06:14,290 S1: Take me back to when you were in eighth grade 106 00:06:14,290 --> 00:06:17,570 S1: or earlier than that, fifth grade. What were you struggling? 107 00:06:17,610 --> 00:06:20,090 S1: Were you struggling with the same kinds of things that 108 00:06:20,089 --> 00:06:21,290 S1: these young kids are? 109 00:06:22,210 --> 00:06:26,690 S2: I think I struggled more with the silence. Uh, you know, 110 00:06:26,730 --> 00:06:28,370 S2: I remember the first time I was told to be 111 00:06:28,370 --> 00:06:30,650 S2: a man. I was maybe fourth or fifth grade. I'm 112 00:06:30,650 --> 00:06:32,770 S2: not exactly sure when it was, but I was at 113 00:06:32,770 --> 00:06:34,850 S2: a buddy's house playing video games, and he said, hey, 114 00:06:34,850 --> 00:06:36,930 S2: do you want to see some porn? And I did 115 00:06:36,930 --> 00:06:39,410 S2: not know what that was. And but I could tell 116 00:06:39,450 --> 00:06:41,130 S2: by the based on the way he was saying it, 117 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:43,210 S2: that it was like a bad thing. I was like, uh, 118 00:06:43,290 --> 00:06:46,049 S2: no thanks. And he said, oh, come on, be a man. 119 00:06:46,490 --> 00:06:49,490 S2: And I thought, uh, well, I don't want to be 120 00:06:49,490 --> 00:06:52,550 S2: a woman. So. Sure. And then that's the first time 121 00:06:52,550 --> 00:06:56,510 S2: I was exposed to pornography. And, you know, my my 122 00:06:56,550 --> 00:06:58,510 S2: father was a good dad. He was present in the home. 123 00:06:58,510 --> 00:07:02,270 S2: But some of, like, the proactive preparatory stuff didn't happen 124 00:07:02,270 --> 00:07:05,870 S2: nearly as much. But that kind of sowed the seed of, 125 00:07:06,110 --> 00:07:08,750 S2: I would say, masculine insecurity where I was felt like 126 00:07:08,750 --> 00:07:12,190 S2: I was supposed to be objectifying women. I felt like 127 00:07:12,190 --> 00:07:16,470 S2: I was supposed to, uh, kind of have a type and, 128 00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:19,390 S2: and think about women in a certain way. And my 129 00:07:19,390 --> 00:07:22,070 S2: friends were leading me more than my church community or 130 00:07:22,070 --> 00:07:25,430 S2: my family. And so especially going through puberty, I felt 131 00:07:25,430 --> 00:07:29,750 S2: relatively confused and relatively alienated. And, you know, I wasn't 132 00:07:29,750 --> 00:07:31,470 S2: going to talk about it to my parents because I 133 00:07:31,470 --> 00:07:34,870 S2: felt embarrassed and I felt dumb. But my friends had 134 00:07:34,870 --> 00:07:37,190 S2: a lot of opinions that in the absence of a 135 00:07:37,190 --> 00:07:40,790 S2: compelling vision, a bad vision kind of gets you. And 136 00:07:40,790 --> 00:07:43,310 S2: so that was a lot of my middle school time. 137 00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:44,950 S2: You know, the other time I remember being told to 138 00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:46,350 S2: be a man was when I couldn't do a pull 139 00:07:46,390 --> 00:07:48,310 S2: up when I was on the middle school basketball team 140 00:07:48,670 --> 00:07:51,280 S2: and someone's like, oh, come on, don't be your man. 141 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,520 S2: Don't be a man, or you're not being a man. 142 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,520 S2: You're just fat. I was like, okay, so now being 143 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,600 S2: a man is being not fat, you know? And so 144 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,160 S2: all the confused messaging really made the masculinity thing more 145 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,040 S2: of an occasion for shame in silence than one of like, 146 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:06,960 S2: positive vision that I was excited about. 147 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,080 S3: Yes. Okay. So right there, the. 148 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,800 S1: Shame, the silence and then the running away from it. 149 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,400 S1: Because that's one of the things I want you to explain. 150 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,920 S1: This is the question I asked on Facebook. What is 151 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,920 S1: authentic masculinity or biblical masculinity? What does that look like? 152 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,200 S1: And for many men today, especially in relationships, if things 153 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,080 S1: get tough, they run away. They they go and they 154 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,560 S1: they hide. They sequester themselves. They they become alone, just 155 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,160 S1: like Adam did you know, or blaming somebody else. And 156 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,240 S1: so I want you to help unpack that for both 157 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,160 S1: the men and the women, the moms and the dads. Today, 158 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,770 S1: if you go to Chris Fabry chris.org. You'll see the 159 00:08:49,770 --> 00:08:54,050 S1: book by Doctor Seth Trout. Authentic Masculinity Leaving Behind the 160 00:08:54,050 --> 00:08:58,930 S1: Counterfeits for God's design. What are those counterfeits? What is 161 00:08:58,929 --> 00:09:02,490 S1: God's design? You can find out more about the book 162 00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:10,210 S1: Authentic Masculinity, right there@chris.org. Chris Fabry live.org. More straight ahead 163 00:09:10,210 --> 00:09:23,010 S1: on Moody Radio. I asked on Facebook, what does biblical 164 00:09:23,010 --> 00:09:27,170 S1: masculinity look like? How would you describe it? Barbara says, 165 00:09:27,210 --> 00:09:30,490 S1: being Christ like, putting his relationship with God first in 166 00:09:30,490 --> 00:09:34,450 S1: his life, pursuing godliness, love, righteousness, growing in the fruit 167 00:09:34,450 --> 00:09:39,850 S1: of the spirit, being responsible for and to his family. Honest, upright, 168 00:09:39,850 --> 00:09:46,210 S1: hard working employee, gentle husband, loving father, good neighbor and 169 00:09:46,210 --> 00:09:50,510 S1: faithful witness. That's not a bad answer right there. But 170 00:09:50,510 --> 00:09:54,750 S1: Seth Trout has taken a more than 100 pages here 171 00:09:55,270 --> 00:10:00,750 S1: to describe what he sees as authentic masculinity. How to 172 00:10:00,750 --> 00:10:05,830 S1: leave behind the counterfeits for God's design. We. And one 173 00:10:05,830 --> 00:10:09,550 S1: of the major components of this is we need men 174 00:10:09,550 --> 00:10:13,670 S1: to be authentically masculine. And we'll talk about that today. 175 00:10:13,670 --> 00:10:22,630 S1: And if you have a question or comment, 87754836758775483675. I 176 00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:24,510 S1: want to ask you about this, Seth, that it just 177 00:10:24,510 --> 00:10:27,270 S1: happened this weekend. I got a phone call. I had 178 00:10:27,270 --> 00:10:29,630 S1: a voicemail and then a phone call. I called back 179 00:10:29,630 --> 00:10:32,910 S1: and it was like this. Here's an opportunity for you, Chris, 180 00:10:32,950 --> 00:10:37,270 S1: to do to do something. And I am. I have 181 00:10:37,270 --> 00:10:43,709 S1: been and may always be kind of this striver, this achiever, 182 00:10:44,190 --> 00:10:49,240 S1: this look, a person who looks for validation from the external, from, 183 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,319 S1: you know, tell me I'm good at what I do and. 184 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,679 S1: ET cetera. ET cetera. You wouldn't be in radio if 185 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,640 S1: you didn't have a have some of that in your blood. 186 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,200 S1: And so I got on this phone call and I 187 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,439 S1: heard about this. You know, this is a great project. 188 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,120 S1: ET cetera. ET cetera. I got off and, and I, 189 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,880 S1: I wasn't doing badly that morning, but after that phone call, 190 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,320 S1: it was like, wow, there's, I'm, I felt on top 191 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,160 S1: of the world. I just felt so, so validated and 192 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,200 S1: so wanted and so needed and, you know, et cetera. 193 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,040 S1: ET cetera. And I, and I stopped and I thought, 194 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,880 S1: why do you feel that way? Why, why did it 195 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:31,400 S1: take somebody else telling you about this opportunity and all 196 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,720 S1: of that? Why did it take that for you to 197 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,800 S1: get to this place right here? Why did that fill 198 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,319 S1: up your tank the way it has? And so I 199 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,000 S1: think first of all, I'm I'm not going to beat 200 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,460 S1: myself up for that because at least I. At least 201 00:11:46,460 --> 00:11:50,060 S1: I stopped and saw it, you know. But what is 202 00:11:50,059 --> 00:11:55,220 S1: that striving achieving thing? Is that part of the masculine 203 00:11:55,460 --> 00:11:59,219 S1: framework or is that the the counterfeit? 204 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:03,180 S2: You know, that's a great question. And I think that 205 00:12:03,179 --> 00:12:06,140 S2: it's probably a little mix of both, right? When God 206 00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:09,060 S2: created the world, the first problem that you see described 207 00:12:09,059 --> 00:12:11,740 S2: in Genesis chapter two is that there was no man 208 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:15,100 S2: to work the ground. And so God put Adam to 209 00:12:15,460 --> 00:12:18,660 S2: work the ground. And so work and the subdue and 210 00:12:18,660 --> 00:12:23,420 S2: dominion and the contributing to God's creation. It's flourishing, unfolding 211 00:12:23,420 --> 00:12:28,699 S2: it that making that positive contribution to, uh, doing that 212 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:31,300 S2: creation mandate through work. I do think it's an inherent 213 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:35,940 S2: aspect of a man's identity that a man who's not 214 00:12:35,940 --> 00:12:40,140 S2: working is failing to live into the Genesis two vision 215 00:12:40,140 --> 00:12:42,939 S2: for what God designed for him. And I think that 216 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,600 S2: that work being recognized as valuable, which is why we 217 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,640 S2: have jobs. That's what money is. It's people. Recognizing your 218 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,600 S2: labor as being valuable feels good. I made a meaningful contribution. 219 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,480 S2: It's being rightly recognized, right? The New Testament talks about 220 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,520 S2: giving honor or honors due. And so maybe you're doing 221 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,160 S2: great work and is doing great work. And this other 222 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,400 S2: person was just giving honor honors due. And they're going, 223 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,600 S2: you know, Chris Fabry, great guy. We love that your 224 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:12,040 S2: contribution to the common good. And that's just rewarding. On 225 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,800 S2: the other hand, I do think that the most important 226 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,839 S2: aspects for identity are given to us by sheer grace 227 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,319 S2: as we're adopted as sons of God, you know, and 228 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,199 S2: the fact that that is a not works based, uh, 229 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,640 S2: identity marker and that should be the bedrock of our security. 230 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,480 S2: And so there's this role of son that we do 231 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:36,080 S2: have to inhabit that should create a unwavering security regardless 232 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,600 S2: of circumstance. But there's also this role we inhabit as 233 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,250 S2: worker that is the holy and good desire to steward 234 00:13:42,250 --> 00:13:45,170 S2: our gifts in a way that serves and blesses other people. 235 00:13:45,730 --> 00:13:48,250 S2: That should be meaningfully and rightly acknowledged from time to time. 236 00:13:48,370 --> 00:13:51,329 S2: So without getting into a full counseling session on the 237 00:13:51,370 --> 00:13:53,250 S2: parsing your heart, I want to say, you know, I'm 238 00:13:53,250 --> 00:13:56,250 S2: not fully against or fully for all of that, but 239 00:13:56,330 --> 00:14:00,290 S2: my my inclination is to see that more positively and negatively. 240 00:14:00,290 --> 00:14:02,650 S2: I think that a lot of men view work as 241 00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:04,730 S2: just a curse they have to deal with. But no 242 00:14:04,770 --> 00:14:08,090 S2: work is a blessing that comes with curses. You know, 243 00:14:08,130 --> 00:14:10,530 S2: that's the Genesis three part of our work. 244 00:14:10,929 --> 00:14:15,810 S1: What about being a pastor? What pitfalls can you fall 245 00:14:15,809 --> 00:14:19,210 S1: into that mirror? What I've just described. 246 00:14:20,490 --> 00:14:24,130 S2: Well, I think when we get into people pleasing where 247 00:14:24,170 --> 00:14:26,690 S2: and we are more controlled by the fear of men 248 00:14:26,690 --> 00:14:29,730 S2: and their opinions over against the fear of God, that 249 00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:32,650 S2: is when you are in a really bad place. You know, 250 00:14:32,690 --> 00:14:35,290 S2: the book of acts when the apostles said we must 251 00:14:35,290 --> 00:14:38,290 S2: obey God rather than men. If I'm a pastor and 252 00:14:38,290 --> 00:14:42,510 S2: I'm just itching ears or tickling ears telling people what 253 00:14:42,510 --> 00:14:44,430 S2: they want to hear so that I can have their 254 00:14:44,430 --> 00:14:48,350 S2: positive feedback. Like there is an aspect of every man's job, 255 00:14:48,670 --> 00:14:51,550 S2: especially as a pastor, but another job as well, where 256 00:14:51,550 --> 00:14:53,030 S2: you have to do the hard thing, you have to 257 00:14:53,070 --> 00:14:55,870 S2: disappoint the people. You have to tell people the negative 258 00:14:55,870 --> 00:14:59,070 S2: critical feedback. And so if it's all positive feedback all 259 00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:01,910 S2: the time, there's probably an aspect of the character of 260 00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:06,350 S2: Christ that we're lacking in our. Our spirit and our soul, 261 00:15:06,350 --> 00:15:08,190 S2: that he's able to let the rich young men go 262 00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:11,870 S2: away sad. He's able to confront the Pharisees and create 263 00:15:11,870 --> 00:15:16,070 S2: enemies because he's standing with the Lord. And so a 264 00:15:16,070 --> 00:15:20,710 S2: pastor like me in particular, if I'm only getting flattery, 265 00:15:20,910 --> 00:15:22,990 S2: I need to be really nervous about that, you know? 266 00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:24,910 S2: But if I'm being encouraged for my good work. But 267 00:15:24,910 --> 00:15:27,470 S2: every now and then, I'm having to burn a bridge 268 00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:29,910 S2: for the purity of the church, then so be it. 269 00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:32,470 S2: And I'm going to let the smile of God shine 270 00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:36,710 S2: brighter than the smile of people who want me to 271 00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:40,520 S2: do ungodly things or suppress the truth in unrighteousness. 272 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,280 S1: You beat me to the story. That was exactly the 273 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,480 S1: first one. The rich young ruler. It's like Jesus. Jesus 274 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,960 S1: looked at him and loved him and he he really, 275 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,640 S1: he really cared for this guy and he let him 276 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:58,960 S1: walk away. Just like the parable of the prodigal son, 277 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,080 S1: the dad, the perfect dad, the loving father allowed his 278 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,480 S1: son to take and squander. It allowed him to go 279 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,440 S1: and didn't run after him. Uh, so that's very good. 280 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,760 S1: Here's the other question that I wanted to ask you 281 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,520 S1: when you talked about masculine inferiority, when you couldn't do 282 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,200 S1: the pull up. Now, these were kids that were running up, jumping, 283 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,400 S1: grabbing a hold of the net on the basketball rim 284 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,760 S1: and pulling themselves up, which if the coach was around, 285 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,360 S1: they'd they'd start throwing basketballs at you to do that. 286 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,080 S1: Don't you do that, kids. But you couldn't do that. 287 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,720 S1: And I look at your pictures now. I've seen you 288 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,140 S1: on different podcasts and it's like, you're you're in really 289 00:16:38,140 --> 00:16:41,580 S1: good shape. Unless, you know, in the last month, something 290 00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:45,580 S1: has gone south. How long was it for you in 291 00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:50,700 S1: that middle school basketball season when you were overweight? How 292 00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:54,340 S1: long did it take you to shed those pounds, and 293 00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:58,860 S1: did you base your masculinity then on on that? 294 00:16:59,980 --> 00:17:02,660 S2: Yeah, I'm not sure if I was ever flirting with 295 00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:07,460 S2: clinically overweight, but I was definitely weak and undeveloped. You know, 296 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:10,180 S2: I think that the season of puberty, it's just a 297 00:17:10,180 --> 00:17:12,980 S2: season of feeling awkward in your body and different things 298 00:17:12,980 --> 00:17:16,260 S2: grow faster than other things. And I think that's why 299 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:19,060 S2: a lot of people, you know, Eugene Peterson makes this 300 00:17:19,060 --> 00:17:21,820 S2: point in his book on parenting, like Do Your Youth. 301 00:17:21,820 --> 00:17:24,340 S2: He says the reason most people have trouble relating with 302 00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:27,620 S2: middle school men and women is because they've all successfully 303 00:17:27,619 --> 00:17:29,980 S2: repressed all their terrible memories of the times from when 304 00:17:29,980 --> 00:17:32,260 S2: they were in middle school. And, and I think on 305 00:17:32,260 --> 00:17:34,540 S2: the one hand, that's true. And if you're anything near 306 00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:37,669 S2: middle school ministry, you understand some of that. But I 307 00:17:37,670 --> 00:17:40,310 S2: think that's one of the difficult things now, especially for 308 00:17:40,350 --> 00:17:43,189 S2: middle school boys who look at Instagram and see the 309 00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:45,830 S2: bodies of these men in their 20s and 30s and go, 310 00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:47,709 S2: I want to look like that. And it's like, well, 311 00:17:48,430 --> 00:17:50,590 S2: you're just not going to. It takes a long time 312 00:17:50,590 --> 00:17:52,830 S2: in the gym of trying to be an athlete, to 313 00:17:52,869 --> 00:17:57,189 S2: become an athlete, and making peace with the process is 314 00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:59,669 S2: a really difficult thing. You know, eventually, you know, I 315 00:17:59,670 --> 00:18:01,510 S2: got all the way through puberty and I was in 316 00:18:01,510 --> 00:18:02,990 S2: high school and I could do a pull up, not 317 00:18:02,990 --> 00:18:06,429 S2: necessarily because I followed a diet and exercise regimen, but 318 00:18:06,430 --> 00:18:09,030 S2: just because my, my body came into itself. 319 00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:13,830 S1: Interesting. Uh, okay, one more question. Then we get to 320 00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:16,109 S1: the content of the book, though. You're giving us the 321 00:18:16,109 --> 00:18:20,350 S1: content of the book here in your answers. Um, I'm 322 00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:23,470 S1: wondering if you can help us out with. You say 323 00:18:23,470 --> 00:18:25,110 S1: this book is for men who want to know what 324 00:18:25,109 --> 00:18:29,190 S1: it means to be a biblical, masculine man. It's for 325 00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:32,230 S1: dads who want to grow with their sons. This book 326 00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:34,879 S1: is for women who want to know if their boyfriend 327 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,320 S1: is husband material. It's for moms who want to help 328 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,280 S1: disciple their sons. This book is for pastors and youth 329 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,200 S1: leaders who want to speak with confidence into the world 330 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:51,679 S1: of counterfeits. So what is the main counterfeit? Not out 331 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,959 S1: there in society. Not the Tates, but what's the main 332 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,520 S1: counterfeit to true, authentic masculinity that you see in the church? 333 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,680 S2: Well, I think the main counterfeit within the church would 334 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,640 S2: be a version of androgyny. So that word is like androgynous, 335 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,360 S2: you know, the the gender neutrality myth, this idea that 336 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,520 S2: men and women are inherently interchangeable. I think within the church, 337 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,120 S2: there's this big reaction appropriately against the toxic kind of 338 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,400 S2: super patriarchal, right wing, hyper masculine stuff. And what is 339 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,560 S2: promoted within the church is we all just want to 340 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,360 S2: be like Jesus. And I want to say yes and 341 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,660 S2: amen to that. But when I ask most Christians, how 342 00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:35,859 S2: are men supposed to be like Jesus in a way 343 00:19:35,859 --> 00:19:38,859 S2: that is maybe different than the way that women are 344 00:19:38,859 --> 00:19:41,540 S2: supposed to be like Jesus? It kind of goes silent 345 00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:45,580 S2: and crickets start to happen in most Christian circles. I 346 00:19:45,580 --> 00:19:48,860 S2: do think there is like a nervousness created by some 347 00:19:48,859 --> 00:19:52,340 S2: of that progressive pushback within the church to speak with 348 00:19:52,340 --> 00:19:56,420 S2: clarity about the design for fathers and mothers and husbands 349 00:19:56,420 --> 00:20:00,700 S2: and wives, and the unique responsibilities that God assigns to men. 350 00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:04,180 S2: And so I think more of that silence and gender neutrality, 351 00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:07,260 S2: or interchangeability of the sexes is something that has crept 352 00:20:07,260 --> 00:20:09,619 S2: into the church a lot over the last 50 years, 353 00:20:09,619 --> 00:20:11,940 S2: especially with the rise of third wave feminism. 354 00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:17,340 S1: Okay. So and even even the worship songs that we sing, 355 00:20:17,380 --> 00:20:19,980 S1: if you don't sing hymns anymore, the worship songs that 356 00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:25,740 S1: we sing are more have been somewhat, at least somewhat. 357 00:20:25,780 --> 00:20:31,380 S1: I think everybody would agree with this feminized about loving Jesus. 358 00:20:31,380 --> 00:20:35,149 S1: There's not a whole lot of masculine Jesus in those 359 00:20:35,150 --> 00:20:37,109 S1: songs that we sing. Would you agree with that? 360 00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:41,389 S2: Yeah, the book of Jesus or the book of revelation. Jesus, 361 00:20:41,390 --> 00:20:44,270 S2: who comes back to slaughter his enemies, uh, is kind 362 00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:47,750 S2: of a taboo worship song genre, but I imagine that 363 00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:51,150 S2: would be inherently more masculine rendering of some of those tunes. 364 00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:55,990 S1: I love what C.S. Lewis said, gentle Jesus, my elbow, 365 00:20:56,750 --> 00:21:00,550 S1: he was not. When you see Jesus coming up against 366 00:21:00,550 --> 00:21:02,830 S1: these people who have the power to, you know, to 367 00:21:02,869 --> 00:21:05,590 S1: take his life, though they didn't have the power, God 368 00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:08,910 S1: had to give it to him, uh, allow them to, uh, 369 00:21:08,910 --> 00:21:11,710 S1: when you see that against the Pharisees and the Sadducees 370 00:21:11,710 --> 00:21:17,990 S1: and all of Rome, you see him standing up straight 371 00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:22,150 S1: with a, with a strong backbone and not backing down, 372 00:21:22,270 --> 00:21:26,910 S1: calling them these names whitewashed sepulchers. ET cetera. ET cetera. Right. 373 00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:30,470 S2: Oh, yeah. We talk about it at our church about 374 00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:33,810 S2: having a soft heart and a steel spine, and how 375 00:21:33,810 --> 00:21:36,010 S2: it's really easy to have a soft heart and a 376 00:21:36,010 --> 00:21:38,770 S2: soft spine. And it's pretty easy to have a soft 377 00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:40,810 S2: or had to have a hard heart and a hard spine. 378 00:21:40,810 --> 00:21:44,409 S2: But it does take work to have the compassion of 379 00:21:44,410 --> 00:21:48,410 S2: Jesus and the conviction of Jesus simultaneously existing in one 380 00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:51,170 S2: man's heart and mind. But that's what we're called to. Yeah. 381 00:21:51,690 --> 00:21:54,610 S1: You know, it's really interesting, and I know that I'm 382 00:21:54,970 --> 00:21:57,649 S1: veering off of the topic of the book in a 383 00:21:57,690 --> 00:22:00,010 S1: little ways, but in in a way, I think this 384 00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:03,290 S1: hits at the heart. There was this survey that went 385 00:22:03,290 --> 00:22:07,490 S1: around about the, you know, who's the hero in American 386 00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:11,210 S1: fiction that went around a few years ago. And you 387 00:22:11,250 --> 00:22:15,010 S1: think of all the John Wayne, the Western, the characters, 388 00:22:15,050 --> 00:22:17,250 S1: the die hards and all that kind of stuff. And 389 00:22:17,250 --> 00:22:21,689 S1: the very the very top person or near the top 390 00:22:21,690 --> 00:22:25,050 S1: was Atticus Finch. And I don't think of Atticus Finch 391 00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:29,010 S1: as a, you know, hugely masculine man. He was a lawyer, 392 00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:32,020 S1: you know, and he did the stuff down in Alabama 393 00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:35,340 S1: in the story. But he had a backbone and he 394 00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:39,020 S1: would not back down. And he didn't let his emotion 395 00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:43,940 S1: trump everything that he did. He was who he was 396 00:22:43,940 --> 00:22:46,940 S1: standing up for the marginalized. Right? 397 00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:51,940 S2: Yeah. That's an excellent masculine archetype. You could look at that, 398 00:22:51,940 --> 00:22:56,300 S2: that there is a willingness to be courageous, right? The 399 00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:59,780 S2: word that you get when Paul says in the ESV, 400 00:22:59,820 --> 00:23:02,940 S2: stand firm and act like men. The NIV translates that 401 00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:07,500 S2: as courageous, but the word is could be translated courageous 402 00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:10,300 S2: or act like men. Those are both fair renderings, but 403 00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:12,780 S2: the word has the same word as the root, as 404 00:23:12,780 --> 00:23:17,420 S2: the word androgenic, which is manliness or masculine ness. Because 405 00:23:17,420 --> 00:23:20,500 S2: I do think part of the essence of manliness is 406 00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:25,580 S2: this courage to stand firm over and against something that 407 00:23:25,580 --> 00:23:28,400 S2: is actually creating a risk for you or the people 408 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,080 S2: around you. And so it's, it's an inherently conflicting word. 409 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,680 S2: There's conflict involved, but there is risk that requires overcoming 410 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,520 S2: fear to do the right thing. And so that can 411 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,719 S2: look like storming into battle in the literal sense, or 412 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,520 S2: in the organizational sense, or the legal sense, like with 413 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:46,320 S2: Atticus Finch. 414 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,920 S1: Were there books before we take a break here? One 415 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,280 S1: more question. Were there books that you read that kind 416 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,800 S1: of called you to? This is the 25th anniversary of 417 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,920 S1: Wild at Heart. Don't know, uh, how much exposure you've 418 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,680 S1: had to that, but were there books that called you 419 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,320 S1: to masculinity that you've used through the years? 420 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,080 S2: Yeah, I read Wild Heart when I was in high school, 421 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,520 S2: and it was exciting to me, you know, an adventure, 422 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,240 S2: a damsel go out and it kind of felt like, uh, 423 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,199 S2: I wanted to go be out in nature, you know, 424 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,400 S2: it definitely made sitting in a cubicle sound awful. I 425 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,500 S2: remember that in high school. Um, But a lot of 426 00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:32,060 S2: it was reading the book of acts and seeing Peter 427 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:35,460 S2: go from being this coward who's denying Jesus to a 428 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:38,260 S2: little servant girl, to this man standing up in front 429 00:24:38,260 --> 00:24:42,020 S2: of of the Jews saying, you killed the author of life. 430 00:24:42,020 --> 00:24:45,700 S2: Repent now you know, or, or be in a bad way. 431 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:49,820 S2: And seeing the transformation of these relatively young men in 432 00:24:49,859 --> 00:24:52,820 S2: the disciples, that I felt like there was some virility there, 433 00:24:52,820 --> 00:24:57,580 S2: some edge there, that I found my heart captivated by 434 00:24:57,619 --> 00:25:00,180 S2: what God could do through men who gave their heart 435 00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:00,699 S2: to God. 436 00:25:00,980 --> 00:25:04,700 S1: Yes. And that's the secret sauce right there. It's through 437 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:08,340 S1: the power of the Holy Spirit and the conforming of 438 00:25:08,340 --> 00:25:12,139 S1: your will, your intellect, and your will to what God 439 00:25:12,140 --> 00:25:16,540 S1: wants for you. That's what authentic masculinity, that's the process 440 00:25:16,540 --> 00:25:19,740 S1: that you go through. And if you go to chris.org, 441 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:22,980 S1: you'll see our featured resource right there, the book by 442 00:25:22,980 --> 00:25:28,990 S1: Seth Trout. There's three T's in trout. TROUTT. Authentic masculinity 443 00:25:28,990 --> 00:25:34,110 S1: leaving behind the counterfeits for God's. Designed our featured resource 444 00:25:34,109 --> 00:25:38,070 S1: at Chris Fabry live.org. I want to hear your response 445 00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:40,230 S1: to the conversation today. We're going to get more into 446 00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:46,310 S1: the book when we come back from a break. (877) 548-3675 447 00:25:46,350 --> 00:26:02,550 S1: is our number. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. Pastor 448 00:26:02,550 --> 00:26:06,630 S1: and author Seth Trout joining us today. Authentic masculinity is 449 00:26:06,630 --> 00:26:10,510 S1: our featured resource at Chris Fabry live.org. You would think 450 00:26:10,510 --> 00:26:13,949 S1: that this is just a book for men, but it's not. 451 00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:17,670 S1: It's it's for everybody. It's for all ages. Things to 452 00:26:17,670 --> 00:26:23,929 S1: understand about how to a achieve authentic masculinity. and it 453 00:26:23,930 --> 00:26:26,410 S1: is a process. And we're going to talk about it 454 00:26:26,410 --> 00:26:29,410 S1: today at the back fence. I want to ask you, Seth, 455 00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:35,530 S1: there's four questions, basically that that you formed to lead 456 00:26:35,530 --> 00:26:39,010 S1: us into this, the the pyramid. Take us through those 457 00:26:39,010 --> 00:26:41,090 S1: four questions and the virtues. 458 00:26:42,369 --> 00:26:44,290 S2: Yeah. This first part of the book is really about 459 00:26:44,290 --> 00:26:47,369 S2: what a man ought to be like. What what comes 460 00:26:47,369 --> 00:26:49,330 S2: with him when he moves into a room. How do 461 00:26:49,369 --> 00:26:55,090 S2: other people experience his character, his disposition, his personality? And 462 00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:58,730 S2: I first started developing this because I was just recognizing 463 00:26:58,730 --> 00:27:00,609 S2: even going back to the Andrew Tate guy, sorry, we 464 00:27:00,609 --> 00:27:03,170 S2: keep bringing him up, but people are saying that he's 465 00:27:03,170 --> 00:27:09,050 S2: like excessively masculine and I'm going, absolutely not. He's insufficiently masculine. 466 00:27:09,050 --> 00:27:12,570 S2: Because what I understand masculinity to be is being this 467 00:27:12,570 --> 00:27:16,330 S2: mix of characteristics and virtues. And he lacks all of them. 468 00:27:16,690 --> 00:27:20,050 S2: And so he's lacks the masculinity. He doesn't have too 469 00:27:20,050 --> 00:27:22,899 S2: much of it. And what exactly does he lack? Well, 470 00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:26,100 S2: the base of this pyramid is humility. Man is not God. 471 00:27:26,340 --> 00:27:30,540 S2: He's located limited, finite, sinful. That he needs grace, that 472 00:27:30,540 --> 00:27:34,300 S2: he's a creature, not a creator. And so when we 473 00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:37,459 S2: rightly understand that that man is not God, the proper 474 00:27:37,460 --> 00:27:41,020 S2: response is to develop a character of virtue, a characteristic 475 00:27:41,020 --> 00:27:43,620 S2: of virtue, of humility. But then you go up a 476 00:27:43,619 --> 00:27:45,820 S2: rung and you go, well, man's not just like the 477 00:27:45,820 --> 00:27:49,619 S2: other creatures either. He's different than the animals. He's not, uh, 478 00:27:49,859 --> 00:27:53,419 S2: someone who is just ring bell drool. Like there's moral 479 00:27:53,420 --> 00:27:56,939 S2: vision here. There's the capacity to order our lives and 480 00:27:56,940 --> 00:28:00,580 S2: to say no to lesser desires in favor of greater desires. 481 00:28:00,580 --> 00:28:04,300 S2: And so man's not an animal. So he should have discipline, 482 00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:06,740 S2: that we can discipline our desires and we can work 483 00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:09,820 S2: on them and we can order them. Uh, but then 484 00:28:09,820 --> 00:28:13,460 S2: he's not just a human, broadly speaking, but he's actually 485 00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:16,580 S2: not a boy. And so he a man's not a child. 486 00:28:16,619 --> 00:28:18,820 S2: You know, a child needs to be taken care of 487 00:28:18,820 --> 00:28:22,359 S2: and needs to be mothered. I can't have responsibility for himself. 488 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,080 S2: And so man's not a boy. He should have responsibility. 489 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,320 S2: He should not blame shift. He should not avoid responsibility, 490 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,000 S2: but seek it out and seek to grow in it, 491 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,920 S2: both taking responsibility for himself, but then also the capacity 492 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,720 S2: to care for other people as his umbrella expands. And 493 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,640 S2: then man is not a woman. That male and female 494 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,800 S2: are fundamentally different in every cell of our bodies that 495 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,360 S2: are masculine or feminine, male or female. And First Peter 496 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,720 S2: three seven says that men should show honor to the 497 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,520 S2: woman as the weaker vessel, and they are the co-heirs 498 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,360 S2: of grace with us. And so we're equal, but we're 499 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,480 S2: not equivalent. And that this equivalence means that we have 500 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,640 S2: this additional responsibility of showing honor to women as the 501 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,600 S2: weaker vessel. And I call that chivalry. I like that 502 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,959 S2: old medieval word that's about stewarding our strength for the 503 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,360 S2: benefit of others, not for selfish gain. 504 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,770 S1: So it's more than holding the door open. It could 505 00:29:19,770 --> 00:29:22,050 S1: be holding the door open. But it's more than that. 506 00:29:22,050 --> 00:29:23,690 S1: It's deeper than that, right? 507 00:29:24,210 --> 00:29:28,130 S2: Yeah. There's obviously like the surface level applications, which tend 508 00:29:28,130 --> 00:29:30,490 S2: to reveal a different pattern of thinking I think is good. 509 00:29:30,530 --> 00:29:32,050 S2: You know, I want to walk on the street side. 510 00:29:32,050 --> 00:29:34,290 S2: I want to open the door for my wife. But 511 00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:38,650 S2: more than that, it's about being considerate of my wife, 512 00:29:38,650 --> 00:29:42,370 S2: considerate of my kids going, how can I protect and 513 00:29:42,370 --> 00:29:45,210 S2: intercede and intervene when Adam is put in the garden 514 00:29:45,210 --> 00:29:48,290 S2: in Genesis two, he's put there to serve and keep, 515 00:29:48,290 --> 00:29:52,690 S2: or that could be translated, uh, work and protect that 516 00:29:52,690 --> 00:29:57,090 S2: there should be an interventionist flinch. I have to protect 517 00:29:57,090 --> 00:29:59,890 S2: the people around me, and both from their own folly 518 00:29:59,890 --> 00:30:03,650 S2: and my children's sense, but also just from external, uh, 519 00:30:04,170 --> 00:30:06,810 S2: forces that seek to get in their way. You know, 520 00:30:06,850 --> 00:30:10,290 S2: Adam's passivity when Eve is being tempted is the first 521 00:30:10,290 --> 00:30:13,610 S2: failure of chivalry. And I want to understand that as 522 00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:16,930 S2: a husband, you know, I'm the head and I'm meant 523 00:30:16,930 --> 00:30:19,870 S2: to represent the way that Jesus uses his authority in 524 00:30:19,870 --> 00:30:22,910 S2: the church to lay my life down and to serve 525 00:30:22,910 --> 00:30:26,350 S2: and care and to leverage my strengths such that my 526 00:30:26,350 --> 00:30:29,270 S2: wife flourishes. You know, not causing her to be a 527 00:30:29,270 --> 00:30:31,990 S2: servant of me, but causing her to be the best 528 00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:34,110 S2: version of herself she can be. Because I'm creating an 529 00:30:34,110 --> 00:30:35,750 S2: environment where she's going to thrive. 530 00:30:36,110 --> 00:30:39,110 S1: All of these are interconnected, though, and they build on 531 00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:42,750 S1: each other. The humility being the base. You can't have 532 00:30:42,750 --> 00:30:46,230 S1: the discipline that you need or show the chivalry at 533 00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:49,190 S1: the very top, unless you have the humility at the 534 00:30:49,190 --> 00:30:53,230 S1: beginning to see yourself who you are compared to God. Right? 535 00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:57,310 S2: Oh, absolutely. And I think the Beatitudes have a similar structure. 536 00:30:57,350 --> 00:31:00,390 S2: You know, the first one is blessed are the poor 537 00:31:00,390 --> 00:31:03,030 S2: in spirit. And I think when we come to God 538 00:31:03,030 --> 00:31:05,790 S2: with the poor in spirit, nothing in my hand I 539 00:31:05,790 --> 00:31:10,550 S2: bring simply to the cross I cling. Ethos that creates 540 00:31:10,550 --> 00:31:14,870 S2: a disposition of curiosity and teachability and kindness and love 541 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:17,920 S2: that plays out in all these other virtues and all 542 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:18,680 S2: the other roles. 543 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:24,480 S1: Talk specifically to moms who are listening, who have young 544 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,000 S1: sons or could be teenagers now. That whole idea of discipline, 545 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:35,200 S1: how do moms thwart authentic masculinity in their sons? Or 546 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:36,160 S1: how can they? 547 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,360 S2: Well, I think at a young age, you know, my 548 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,840 S2: son is six, which is the age that the kids 549 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,480 S2: were in and the famous marshmallow experiment. You know, they 550 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,040 S2: gave a kid a marshmallow and said, if you don't 551 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,200 S2: eat this for a whole minute, you can get a 552 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,720 S2: second marshmallow. And this small capacity, delayed gratification for the 553 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,840 S2: purpose of a greater vision that was a predictor. They 554 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,600 S2: did a longitudinal study that 30 years later, the kids 555 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,120 S2: who had the capacity, even at the age of six, 556 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,920 S2: to delay that gratification, were far more successful by virtually 557 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,400 S2: every measure 30 years later into their mid 30s. And 558 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,960 S2: so moms working with little kids, teaching them about greater 559 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,140 S2: and lesser desires. right? My son wants a donut. Okay. 560 00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:20,140 S2: That's great. But we have a football game later. What 561 00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:21,860 S2: would be better to eat? So that you can play 562 00:32:21,860 --> 00:32:25,700 S2: better at football later today? Okay, maybe we'll do eggs 563 00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:27,500 S2: and bacon and a bagel. That'd be better for you. 564 00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:29,940 S2: And so trying to help them go wanting a donut 565 00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:31,739 S2: is good. But what's something better we could do that 566 00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:34,300 S2: will set you up for success later today? You know, 567 00:32:34,340 --> 00:32:37,020 S2: obviously the returns on investment are shorter when the kids 568 00:32:37,020 --> 00:32:40,020 S2: are little, but trying to help them think through these 569 00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:43,580 S2: greater and lesser desires in small choices throughout the day 570 00:32:43,820 --> 00:32:47,020 S2: is really formative and actually sets a trajectory for their 571 00:32:47,020 --> 00:32:49,620 S2: life in a big way. That 0 to 6 age 572 00:32:49,940 --> 00:32:53,100 S2: is really important in helping people understand the nature of 573 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:56,820 S2: desire and the role that they have, and having agency 574 00:32:56,820 --> 00:32:59,180 S2: and disciplining those desires. 575 00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:03,380 S1: What's the number one thing you see dads failing to 576 00:33:03,420 --> 00:33:06,580 S1: do to give this, to show this kind of authentic 577 00:33:06,580 --> 00:33:08,500 S1: masculinity to their sons? 578 00:33:09,820 --> 00:33:13,700 S2: I think it's really age appropriate and different in the 579 00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:16,709 S2: various seasons and stages of life. Big picture speaking. The 580 00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:19,750 S2: number one thing I think dads fail to do is 581 00:33:19,790 --> 00:33:22,030 S2: they let the world beat them to the punch. On 582 00:33:22,030 --> 00:33:25,310 S2: having key and crucial conversations in an ongoing way. Like 583 00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:27,270 S2: you don't want your kid to find out what sex 584 00:33:27,310 --> 00:33:29,630 S2: is from their friend in third grade. You want to 585 00:33:29,630 --> 00:33:33,670 S2: begin to have these, uh, increasing in intensity, but age 586 00:33:33,670 --> 00:33:38,630 S2: appropriate conversations about sex and sexuality and money and be 587 00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:41,030 S2: the first voice. In a lot of ways, most dads 588 00:33:41,030 --> 00:33:44,910 S2: are reactive at best, or maybe responsive at best, reactive, 589 00:33:44,910 --> 00:33:47,830 S2: generally speaking, but being proactive in the way we try 590 00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:50,550 S2: to build in these core conversations about what does it 591 00:33:50,550 --> 00:33:52,950 S2: mean to be a man, uh, is a big deal. 592 00:33:52,990 --> 00:33:54,870 S2: You know, my son is six and we're already trying 593 00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:58,230 S2: to have conversations about money and saving and giving, and 594 00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:00,350 S2: it's starting to click. I think a lot of guys 595 00:34:00,350 --> 00:34:04,270 S2: assume their kids are less competent than they could be. Uh, 596 00:34:04,270 --> 00:34:06,270 S2: you kind of have to break the seal early and 597 00:34:06,270 --> 00:34:09,270 S2: to begin to scale up as the kids get older. 598 00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:11,190 S2: And then the other thing that I see is the 599 00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:15,850 S2: big failure in men is this lack of vulnerability from 600 00:34:15,850 --> 00:34:19,129 S2: father to son going, you know, son, this is my 601 00:34:19,130 --> 00:34:21,290 S2: first time being a dad, and so I'm doing the 602 00:34:21,290 --> 00:34:24,730 S2: best I can. I won't do the best I could do, 603 00:34:25,130 --> 00:34:27,089 S2: but I'm doing the best that I know how to do. 604 00:34:27,130 --> 00:34:30,290 S2: And so please forgive me for the clunkiness, for the 605 00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:33,489 S2: awkwardness and being able to be the lead repenter in 606 00:34:33,489 --> 00:34:36,730 S2: the family and even just trying to signal, hey, I'm 607 00:34:36,730 --> 00:34:38,410 S2: not exactly sure what I'm doing, but I'm going to 608 00:34:38,410 --> 00:34:41,649 S2: try at being a dad. Nobody comes in square one 609 00:34:41,650 --> 00:34:43,529 S2: knowing exactly what they have going on, and those who 610 00:34:43,530 --> 00:34:45,690 S2: think they do end up being some of the worst fathers. 611 00:34:45,890 --> 00:34:48,049 S2: And so I think being the lead repenter and trying 612 00:34:48,050 --> 00:34:50,170 S2: to recognize and paint a picture of yourself as being 613 00:34:50,170 --> 00:34:53,410 S2: in process is a big deal, as kids are little. 614 00:34:54,170 --> 00:34:57,609 S1: I also think there's, there's that the striving that I 615 00:34:57,610 --> 00:35:00,689 S1: mentioned earlier. So if you're trying to make a name 616 00:35:00,690 --> 00:35:03,570 S1: for yourself and you're trying to get ahead and working 617 00:35:03,570 --> 00:35:07,250 S1: really hard and working too hard in some ways, you know, 618 00:35:07,290 --> 00:35:11,090 S1: the 14th hour at work never did anybody any good, 619 00:35:11,219 --> 00:35:15,779 S1: you know, um, it's presence. It's just that you're not 620 00:35:15,780 --> 00:35:18,259 S1: there to, you don't have the conversations because you're not there, 621 00:35:18,260 --> 00:35:21,580 S1: you're not keyed in, you're not connected. Um, and I, 622 00:35:21,580 --> 00:35:24,299 S1: and the other thing that I see, I've seen it 623 00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:28,020 S1: myself and I've seen it in other men, especially in marriage, 624 00:35:28,020 --> 00:35:31,180 S1: is just tell me what you want me to do. 625 00:35:31,540 --> 00:35:34,939 S1: Tell me what? Tell me how to be chivalrous. Give 626 00:35:34,940 --> 00:35:37,260 S1: me a list of things that I can check off 627 00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:40,660 S1: here to make sure that I'm okay, so that I 628 00:35:40,660 --> 00:35:44,740 S1: feel validated and I'm. I'm masculine enough for you. And 629 00:35:44,739 --> 00:35:48,260 S1: that is a dead end. That's giving that ceding control 630 00:35:48,260 --> 00:35:50,540 S1: of your masculinity to somebody else. 631 00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:53,620 S2: Yeah. If you wait for your wife to tell you 632 00:35:53,620 --> 00:35:55,739 S2: how to be a husband and how to be a father, 633 00:35:55,940 --> 00:36:00,339 S2: you are rehearsing the sin of Adam on passivity, right? 634 00:36:00,380 --> 00:36:02,779 S2: The most important thing, if you don't actually know what 635 00:36:02,780 --> 00:36:05,379 S2: to do, is to sit and pray and be quiet 636 00:36:05,380 --> 00:36:08,100 S2: before the Lord. Ask him to lead you and devote 637 00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:10,880 S2: just a little bit of creative planning will go a 638 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,560 S2: long way on your date nights and on your fatherhood. 639 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,040 S2: And if you really get stuck, go and find a 640 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,160 S2: man 10 to 30 years older than you at the 641 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,880 S2: church who's doing a good job and say, can you 642 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,560 S2: help me out? Because the older men teaching younger men 643 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,200 S2: as part of the Titus two vision that we should see, 644 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,000 S2: and it's not really a wife's job to teach a 645 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,600 S2: husband how to be a husband or how to be 646 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,799 S2: a father. You really want to go seek out that 647 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:33,920 S2: mentoring from men. 648 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,160 S1: If you got the vulnerability problem, you're not going to 649 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,160 S1: do that. You're too scared to do that. 650 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,839 S2: Yeah. And that's where I think we have to ask 651 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,759 S2: ourselves the question. Is my identity truly purchased and secure 652 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,920 S2: based on grace, or is it based on performance? Because 653 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,280 S2: if my identity is only secure when I'm performing well, 654 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,440 S2: then I'm going to be permanently on the verge of 655 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,920 S2: insecurity or insecure. And if you lack the capacity to 656 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,000 S2: be vulnerable, there's probably something going on where you don't 657 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,920 S2: really believe that you're a son of God by sheer grace, 658 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,530 S2: by by some mixture of performance and how your week went. 659 00:37:10,930 --> 00:37:13,569 S2: And I think that there's a gospel problem there that 660 00:37:13,570 --> 00:37:15,170 S2: you have to really deal with. And you may need 661 00:37:15,170 --> 00:37:18,330 S2: some pastoral support trying to work that deeper into your soul. 662 00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:21,490 S1: That's why I asked you about the pastor question, because 663 00:37:21,489 --> 00:37:25,410 S1: if you depend on people sending you notes or, or 664 00:37:25,450 --> 00:37:30,450 S1: even saying amen during, during your message. If that's, you know, 665 00:37:30,489 --> 00:37:33,970 S1: your success when you get the response that you really want. 666 00:37:34,010 --> 00:37:37,530 S1: And they say, great message today, pastor. Oh, change my life. 667 00:37:37,810 --> 00:37:42,689 S1: If that's the definition of success for you, then what 668 00:37:42,690 --> 00:37:46,410 S1: happens when you preach a really hard message and people 669 00:37:46,410 --> 00:37:50,529 S1: walk out and there there's, you know, they're smarting a 670 00:37:50,530 --> 00:37:53,930 S1: little bit, but you've been faithful to preach what was 671 00:37:53,930 --> 00:37:56,969 S1: in the word. That's that's a hard struggle, isn't it? 672 00:37:58,010 --> 00:38:01,089 S2: Yeah. And I think there's always a dance. And we 673 00:38:01,090 --> 00:38:04,410 S2: have to be both sensitive and considerate of the people 674 00:38:04,410 --> 00:38:08,630 S2: around us and appropriately Inconsiderate of them as we seek 675 00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:11,510 S2: to fear the Lord and be controlled by his designs 676 00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:13,710 S2: and everything we do. And so we don't want to 677 00:38:13,710 --> 00:38:17,430 S2: be like, antisocial, who's just completely aloof to how other 678 00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:20,510 S2: people are doing. But we also don't want to be 679 00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:25,189 S2: controlled by this fear of man that is tossing us 680 00:38:25,190 --> 00:38:29,109 S2: to and fro based on the polls and the popularity 681 00:38:29,110 --> 00:38:32,790 S2: of whatever is happening in the day. And so we 682 00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:36,510 S2: want to be connected to people, but not controlled by people, 683 00:38:36,510 --> 00:38:38,630 S2: but we want to be connected and controlled by God. 684 00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:41,469 S2: And that's obviously easier said than done. And there is 685 00:38:41,469 --> 00:38:43,469 S2: a bit of a trial and error in working this 686 00:38:43,469 --> 00:38:44,710 S2: out in our discipleship. 687 00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:48,190 S1: Is really deep stuff today. And it's like, as I said, 688 00:38:48,190 --> 00:38:53,710 S1: for men and women, authentic masculinity leaving behind the counterfeits 689 00:38:53,710 --> 00:38:57,710 S1: for God's design. Featured resource at Chris Fabry live.org. We 690 00:38:57,710 --> 00:39:00,150 S1: have a link for you right there. Go to Chris 691 00:39:01,070 --> 00:39:04,830 S1: dot ORG. Our remaining moments with Seth Trout coming up 692 00:39:04,830 --> 00:39:18,960 S1: straight ahead on Moody Radio. This is Chris Fabry live. 693 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,239 S1: Thanks a lot for joining us today at the Radio 694 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,320 S1: Backyard Fence. Seth Trout has written Authentic Masculinity Leaving Behind 695 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:31,839 S1: the Counterfeits for God's Design. Featured resource. Chris fabriclive.org. We 696 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,279 S1: spent some time on the virtues, the masculine virtues of 697 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,399 S1: humility and discipline and responsibility and chivalry. And this is 698 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,760 S1: a process. It's a complex machine that is going on here, 699 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,160 S1: that God is working in you and changing you. There's 700 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,359 S1: the second part of the book, though, is about the 701 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,799 S1: masculine roles. Give us a flyover of those. 702 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,160 S2: Yeah. So it's another pyramid because you have to work 703 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,760 S2: bottom to top or ideally you should work bottom to top. 704 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,800 S2: But the bottom is son, your son before you're born. 705 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,260 S2: You have a genetic and spiritual legacy. And so son 706 00:40:06,260 --> 00:40:08,380 S2: is really about becoming the type of man that a 707 00:40:08,380 --> 00:40:11,219 S2: wise man would be proud of. Stewarding your family history, 708 00:40:11,219 --> 00:40:15,540 S2: breaking and making generational patterns as you need to. Then 709 00:40:15,540 --> 00:40:18,820 S2: his brother brothers next layer up. That's both about treating 710 00:40:18,820 --> 00:40:21,940 S2: women as sisters in all purity, like first Timothy five says, 711 00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:24,940 S2: and it's about making and maintaining high quality male friendship, 712 00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:27,620 S2: kind of building out a fraternity that's going to be 713 00:40:27,620 --> 00:40:30,700 S2: with you for the duration of your life. Maker is 714 00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:32,860 S2: about work. We talked about that at the beginning. Subdue 715 00:40:32,860 --> 00:40:35,899 S2: and dominion. Uh, trying to leverage who you are for 716 00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:38,500 S2: the sake of the common good and being financially compensated 717 00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:41,819 S2: for it and stewarding that money. Then husband taking a 718 00:40:41,820 --> 00:40:44,100 S2: wife or wooing a wife is probably a better way 719 00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:46,259 S2: of saying that. How do you cherish and nourish your 720 00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:49,540 S2: wife like Ephesians five tells you to? And then, father, 721 00:40:49,540 --> 00:40:52,980 S2: this is both biological and spiritual. I want to pass 722 00:40:52,980 --> 00:40:56,819 S2: on myself to the next generation, and I want to 723 00:40:56,860 --> 00:40:59,860 S2: do so by participating in the Great Commission as well. 724 00:40:59,860 --> 00:41:03,070 S2: As I participate in spiritual fatherhood, I do think every 725 00:41:03,070 --> 00:41:05,830 S2: man should aspire to be elder qualified, even if they 726 00:41:05,830 --> 00:41:08,669 S2: never hold the office of elder, as they seek to 727 00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:11,870 S2: further and expand the mission of the church through their 728 00:41:11,870 --> 00:41:15,870 S2: faithful participation. So son, brother, maker, husband and father. Those 729 00:41:15,870 --> 00:41:19,110 S2: are the roles that we bring the virtues into and 730 00:41:19,110 --> 00:41:22,030 S2: we're judged. We try to judge ourselves according to Scripture, 731 00:41:22,030 --> 00:41:23,990 S2: based on how we inhabit those various roles. 732 00:41:24,830 --> 00:41:27,910 S1: Talk to the man listening who had a dad who 733 00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:33,830 S1: was either a very, very toxic, you know, overbearing and 734 00:41:33,830 --> 00:41:36,710 S1: wasn't masculine in the way that you're talking about it 735 00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:39,510 S1: or was just absent, was not there. Maybe he didn't 736 00:41:39,510 --> 00:41:42,029 S1: never even knew his dad. What do you say to 737 00:41:42,070 --> 00:41:42,790 S1: that man? 738 00:41:44,070 --> 00:41:47,109 S2: Yeah, I would say you have good company and that 739 00:41:47,110 --> 00:41:51,950 S2: is unfortunate, but fortunate. I think that most men are 740 00:41:52,230 --> 00:41:58,030 S2: either unfeathered or under fathered, statistically speaking, a small percentage 741 00:41:58,030 --> 00:42:02,290 S2: of men. What I say had fathers who loved their wife, 742 00:42:02,489 --> 00:42:05,250 S2: who loved the Lord Jesus and loved their kids with 743 00:42:05,250 --> 00:42:08,730 S2: deliberate intentionality. Most men are kind of in some place 744 00:42:08,730 --> 00:42:12,529 S2: where they're under fathered, negatively fathered, or unfeathered. And that 745 00:42:12,530 --> 00:42:15,250 S2: does put you at a deficit when you're kind of 746 00:42:15,290 --> 00:42:18,770 S2: born into a story where part of your calling is 747 00:42:18,770 --> 00:42:23,450 S2: to break generational patterns. Like there is this false responsibility distinction. 748 00:42:24,250 --> 00:42:26,490 S2: The fact that you had a bad father's not your fault, 749 00:42:26,489 --> 00:42:31,009 S2: but it is your responsibility to improve upon whatever your 750 00:42:31,010 --> 00:42:34,210 S2: father gave you and not pass that on directly to 751 00:42:34,250 --> 00:42:37,450 S2: your son. Like I think about Isaac and Abraham. You know, Abraham, 752 00:42:37,450 --> 00:42:39,689 S2: when the going gets tough, he says, that's not my wife, 753 00:42:39,690 --> 00:42:42,969 S2: that's my sister. And then one generation later, his son 754 00:42:42,969 --> 00:42:45,570 S2: does the same thing. That's not my wife. That's my sister. 755 00:42:45,570 --> 00:42:48,810 S2: And so he's repeating generational patterns of sin and cowardice 756 00:42:49,090 --> 00:42:51,930 S2: and lack of trust in God. And that's what's normal. 757 00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:56,370 S2: What's normal is to repeat broken generational patterns. And I 758 00:42:56,370 --> 00:43:00,180 S2: think it's difficult, but a really holy and noble task 759 00:43:00,180 --> 00:43:03,140 S2: to be the one who breaks generational patterns of faithlessness 760 00:43:03,140 --> 00:43:08,379 S2: or infidelity or a divorce or abandonment and go. No, 761 00:43:08,380 --> 00:43:11,219 S2: I'm going to create a household that is in line 762 00:43:11,219 --> 00:43:13,700 S2: with God's design, and that usually has to happen through 763 00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:17,299 S2: a lot of prayer, a lot of intaking of resources 764 00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:19,540 S2: like my book, Authentic Masculinity. I also do a lot 765 00:43:19,540 --> 00:43:22,379 S2: of other parenting stuff on my website. You can find out. 766 00:43:22,420 --> 00:43:26,940 S2: Seth trout.com. But mostly it's going to happen through acquiring 767 00:43:26,980 --> 00:43:30,660 S2: to yourself a tribe of mentors, of men who are 768 00:43:30,660 --> 00:43:33,339 S2: older than you that you can go to, like at 769 00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:35,339 S2: lunch or coffee or things like that and say, can 770 00:43:35,340 --> 00:43:38,500 S2: you speak into my life in these various facets? So 771 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:42,500 S2: that I do think it takes multiple father figures to 772 00:43:42,540 --> 00:43:45,939 S2: replace a bad father. Rarely can you just go one 773 00:43:45,940 --> 00:43:49,020 S2: for one, but finding father figures who will help you 774 00:43:49,060 --> 00:43:50,819 S2: catch a vision for what your life could look like 775 00:43:50,860 --> 00:43:52,779 S2: is a big part of that responsibility. 776 00:43:53,219 --> 00:43:56,140 S1: A listener writes, my husband and I are in her 60s. 777 00:43:56,260 --> 00:43:59,680 S1: He has joined the Tait train, spends 11 hours a 778 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,920 S1: day watching YouTube videos in the manosphere. We've been separated 779 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,680 S1: for a year and a half and are looking at divorce. 780 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,840 S1: I'm having an incredibly hard time explaining it to friends 781 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,480 S1: in the Gen X and Boomer generations. What do you 782 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,160 S1: say to her? 783 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,799 S2: Man, my heart breaks for her. The fact that a 784 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,160 S2: man would allow himself to be colonized and conquered by 785 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,920 S2: such an evil spirit of the age is harmful. And 786 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,960 S2: it's disappointing. And it's truly disheartening. How do you explain 787 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,880 S2: it to other people? I mean, that's one of the difficulties, 788 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,600 S2: is our sin doesn't just create shame for us, but 789 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,239 S2: it creates shame for others. And the embarrassment that a 790 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:51,880 S2: husband's sin creates is disheartening and deeply frustrating. The infidelity 791 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:57,850 S2: to God's design is destructive. You know, what I explained 792 00:44:57,850 --> 00:45:00,690 S2: to your friends is, you know, the internet is a 793 00:45:00,690 --> 00:45:02,930 S2: black hole and it can suck your soul right out 794 00:45:02,969 --> 00:45:05,770 S2: of you almost. And that's happening to my husband. Please 795 00:45:05,770 --> 00:45:09,089 S2: pray for him. And I hope if you're part of 796 00:45:09,090 --> 00:45:12,370 S2: a faith community somewhere that pastors and elders can apply 797 00:45:12,410 --> 00:45:16,009 S2: church discipline, pressure to this man, because that is horrible. 798 00:45:16,010 --> 00:45:17,290 S2: And I'm so sorry to hear that. 799 00:45:17,610 --> 00:45:20,689 S1: Yeah, Seth, I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. And 800 00:45:20,690 --> 00:45:22,850 S1: I don't think you would have written this book if 801 00:45:22,850 --> 00:45:26,690 S1: you didn't feel there was hope out there. If you 802 00:45:26,690 --> 00:45:29,290 S1: felt like there was no hope, you wouldn't write the book. 803 00:45:29,330 --> 00:45:32,530 S1: You must feel. Yeah. There's hope. Do you agree with that? 804 00:45:33,290 --> 00:45:36,170 S2: God is at work in me and in us. And 805 00:45:36,170 --> 00:45:38,290 S2: he who began that work is faithful to complete it. 806 00:45:38,290 --> 00:45:40,250 S2: And I hope this book is just one small part 807 00:45:40,250 --> 00:45:41,450 S2: of that in someone's life. 808 00:45:41,930 --> 00:45:45,089 S1: Amen. Seth, thanks for the time today. God bless you 809 00:45:45,090 --> 00:45:49,570 S1: with your teaching there at Ironwood Church in the Phoenix area. 810 00:45:49,610 --> 00:45:51,410 S1: Come back and see us real soon, okay? 811 00:45:52,130 --> 00:45:52,930 S2: Thank you Chris. 812 00:45:53,930 --> 00:45:56,830 S1: His name is Seth Trout. Three pts in trout if 813 00:45:56,830 --> 00:46:00,590 S1: you go to his website. TROUTT. And we have a 814 00:46:00,590 --> 00:46:07,830 S1: link@chris.org for that for his resource today. Authentic masculinity leaving 815 00:46:07,830 --> 00:46:12,310 S1: behind the counterfeits for God's design. Again, I think it's 816 00:46:12,310 --> 00:46:15,910 S1: one of those resources that's going to not just explain 817 00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:18,390 S1: or give you a checklist of, okay, I got to 818 00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:21,790 S1: do this, do that, but give you a rounded view 819 00:46:21,790 --> 00:46:25,830 S1: of the topic that is so ubiquitous in our culture, 820 00:46:25,830 --> 00:46:30,350 S1: as we've talked about here on the program today, authentic masculinity. 821 00:46:30,430 --> 00:46:35,510 S1: Featured resource at Chris dot ORGA. One of my favorite people. 822 00:46:35,550 --> 00:46:37,589 S1: Glenn Marshall is going to be back tomorrow. We're going 823 00:46:37,590 --> 00:46:39,870 S1: to talk about when you're in pain and you're praying, 824 00:46:40,110 --> 00:46:42,029 S1: how do you know God has heard your prayer if 825 00:46:42,030 --> 00:46:44,589 S1: you're not healed? Let's talk about it right here on 826 00:46:44,590 --> 00:46:47,549 S1: Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of 827 00:46:47,590 --> 00:46:49,310 S1: Moody Bible Institute.