1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:10,080 S1: It's an epic story with huge ramifications. It's a battle 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,840 S1: that took place in the unseen realms and caused untold 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,599 S1: pain and havoc for humanity. And it's a question atheists 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,480 S1: have thrown at. Christians and followers of Jesus also pondered 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:27,080 S1: deeply why did God allow evil? Why did he allow 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,120 S1: the rebellion in heaven that affected everything on earth? Today, 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,200 S1: the president of Dallas Theological Seminary in New York Times 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,080 S1: best selling author, team up and go where others fear 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,040 S1: to tread into eternity, into the heavenlies. And the epic 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,360 S1: story they have told is going to make you think 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,720 S1: deeply about the lengths to which God went to secure 12 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,920 S1: our redemption. Doctor Mark Yarbrough and Jerry Jenkins are standing 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,560 S1: by straight ahead on the program. From the heart to 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,600 S1: the heart for the heart. You can find us online@cris.org. 15 00:00:59,980 --> 00:01:03,020 S1: Let me thank our team. Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. 16 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:06,220 S1: Tricia is our producer. Lisa's helping out. Josh will be 17 00:01:06,220 --> 00:01:08,740 S1: answering your calls. You want to talk with Jerry and 18 00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:11,979 S1: Mark today? We are all getting ready for Founder's Week 19 00:01:11,980 --> 00:01:15,500 S1: at Moody Bible Institute. Begins tomorrow night runs through Friday 20 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:19,619 S1: with great speakers, workshops, worship, and a whole lot more. 21 00:01:19,860 --> 00:01:23,300 S1: You can watch the live stream of Founder's Week online here. 22 00:01:23,300 --> 00:01:27,100 S1: The main sessions each evening on Moody Radio. Priscilla Shirer. 23 00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:31,740 S1: Doctor Tony Evans, Doctor Rick Melson are the evening speakers 24 00:01:31,740 --> 00:01:35,260 S1: this week, so don't miss Founder's Week again. It starts tomorrow. 25 00:01:35,819 --> 00:01:38,500 S1: And don't miss the opportunity to receive a great thank 26 00:01:38,540 --> 00:01:42,420 S1: you here in October. Anyone who supports this program in 27 00:01:42,420 --> 00:01:45,580 S1: the next 11 days, don't wait till 11 days though. 28 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:49,100 S1: Anybody who gives a gift will receive. Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth 29 00:01:49,140 --> 00:01:54,900 S1: 31 day Advent devotional. Consider Jesus meditations on the Person 30 00:01:54,900 --> 00:01:58,880 S1: and Work of Christ. Don't miss the festive and meaningful. 31 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,880 S1: Thank you that we want to get to you as 32 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,360 S1: you celebrate God's greatest gift. You can call give a 33 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:13,000 S1: gift at 18669538669532279. Or just go to the website. Chris 34 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,919 S1: Fabry live.org. Scroll down. You'll see how you can be a, 35 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,440 S1: a friend or a partner with us. Chris fabry.org. And 36 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,320 S1: thanks for your support of the Radio Backyard Fence, which 37 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,080 S1: allows me to read the first line of the novel 38 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,880 S1: that comes out November 10th. It's two weeks away. Call 39 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:39,120 S1: me Michael. God did and he still does. So begins 40 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,720 S1: an epic biblical story that will make you ponder God's 41 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,280 S1: greatness and his sovereignty. In the midst of all the questions, 42 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,120 S1: they call it a story of Scripture novel. Let's find 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,800 S1: out more from the president of Dallas Theological Seminary. Prolific 44 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,770 S1: author and speaker, doctor Mark Yarbrough. Mark. Welcome back to 45 00:02:57,770 --> 00:02:59,169 S1: the program. How are you doing today? 46 00:02:59,330 --> 00:03:03,010 S2: I am blessed beyond measure, brother. Good to be with you. 47 00:03:03,210 --> 00:03:05,810 S1: I'm glad to have you. And his co-author is this 48 00:03:05,810 --> 00:03:08,610 S1: little known author, Jerry B Jenkins, who has written a 49 00:03:08,610 --> 00:03:11,290 S1: few books, including 21 New York Times best sellers. You 50 00:03:11,290 --> 00:03:14,089 S1: know him from the Left Behind series, The Chosen Series, 51 00:03:14,410 --> 00:03:17,650 S1: based on the television series and more. Jerry, how are 52 00:03:17,650 --> 00:03:18,370 S1: you doing today? 53 00:03:18,410 --> 00:03:20,290 S3: Doing well. Chris. Always good to be with you. 54 00:03:20,610 --> 00:03:23,650 S1: Okay. So is November 10th two weeks or three weeks 55 00:03:23,650 --> 00:03:24,410 S1: from today? 56 00:03:24,450 --> 00:03:25,930 S3: November 3rd. Is actually. 57 00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:26,889 S2: November 3rd. 58 00:03:26,930 --> 00:03:28,609 S1: Is it comes out November 3rd. 59 00:03:28,650 --> 00:03:29,090 S3: Yeah. 60 00:03:29,690 --> 00:03:31,090 S2: Yes. November 3rd. 61 00:03:31,290 --> 00:03:33,570 S1: Okay. So it's two weeks. All right. Two weeks. So 62 00:03:33,610 --> 00:03:36,010 S1: I'm a little early on this to be talking about it, 63 00:03:36,010 --> 00:03:38,010 S1: but trust me, there's a good reason to talk about 64 00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:41,210 S1: the battle for heaven and earth. It is our featured 65 00:03:41,210 --> 00:03:49,050 S1: resource at Chris Fabry live.org. Okay. A full full of resolution. Here. 66 00:03:49,050 --> 00:03:52,010 S1: I saw this, I read it a long time ago, 67 00:03:52,450 --> 00:03:55,910 S1: an advance copy, and I don't think any the advance 68 00:03:55,910 --> 00:03:58,310 S1: copy I saw that you have a map of the 69 00:03:58,310 --> 00:04:00,750 S1: Kingdom of Heaven and the Garden of Eden. Mark, where 70 00:04:00,750 --> 00:04:01,830 S1: did you come up with that? 71 00:04:02,350 --> 00:04:04,910 S2: Uh, well, it was about three in the morning, you know, 72 00:04:04,950 --> 00:04:07,750 S2: and I'd stayed up too late, and it was kind 73 00:04:07,750 --> 00:04:09,869 S2: of one of those moments where it was funny, as 74 00:04:09,870 --> 00:04:13,390 S2: I was describing heaven in some of the first drafts 75 00:04:13,390 --> 00:04:15,830 S2: that I'd get to Jerry. I'll never forget. He said, 76 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:17,630 S2: you need to make a map of that. And I 77 00:04:17,630 --> 00:04:20,630 S2: was like, you mean we need to map out heaven? And. 78 00:04:20,990 --> 00:04:23,190 S2: But part of it is in the narrative. And you 79 00:04:23,190 --> 00:04:25,830 S2: know this, Chris, right? You want you want your readers 80 00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:29,670 S2: to kind of be able to better visualize what you're describing. 81 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:32,910 S2: And so there are some geographic places that turn into 82 00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:36,230 S2: markers that were important for readers to know. So that's 83 00:04:36,230 --> 00:04:37,270 S2: why we went with that. 84 00:04:37,270 --> 00:04:41,750 S1: So just like Middle Earth and Narnia, you know, obviously 85 00:04:41,750 --> 00:04:45,510 S1: those were places in the imagination. But Jerry, you're writing 86 00:04:45,510 --> 00:04:50,430 S1: about something real that happened that nobody's ever at least 87 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:52,150 S1: no human's ever seen. Right? 88 00:04:52,470 --> 00:04:55,930 S3: Yeah. And that's the challenge, you know, that's the thing 89 00:04:55,930 --> 00:04:59,170 S3: with with biblical fiction, we want to be true to 90 00:04:59,170 --> 00:05:01,930 S3: the scripture. I mean, we're both obviously believers in the 91 00:05:01,930 --> 00:05:05,290 S3: Bible and the infallibility of the Word of God, and 92 00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:07,290 S3: we don't want to violate that. We don't want to 93 00:05:07,290 --> 00:05:10,690 S3: do something that's implausible compared to what is actually in 94 00:05:10,690 --> 00:05:14,650 S3: the Scripture. But so often the Scripture will will give 95 00:05:14,650 --> 00:05:17,849 S3: us hints of a story, 2 or 3 verses. And 96 00:05:17,850 --> 00:05:20,810 S3: I think we have then literary license to do what 97 00:05:20,810 --> 00:05:23,930 S3: pastors do every Sunday where they say, you know, imagine 98 00:05:23,930 --> 00:05:27,170 S3: yourself as one of the disciples or, or seeing this 99 00:05:27,170 --> 00:05:31,210 S3: miracle or hearing this parable. How would you have responded? 100 00:05:31,210 --> 00:05:34,090 S3: What would you have thought? So we're trying to put 101 00:05:34,130 --> 00:05:36,849 S3: characters in the way of these biblical events and see 102 00:05:36,850 --> 00:05:37,610 S3: what they think. 103 00:05:38,050 --> 00:05:42,810 S1: Okay, the first line though, call me Michael. I was 104 00:05:42,850 --> 00:05:46,010 S1: immediately think of call me Ishmael, right? 105 00:05:46,050 --> 00:05:48,690 S3: I hope so, yeah. If this book could do as 106 00:05:48,690 --> 00:05:50,650 S3: well as that one did, that would be okay. 107 00:05:51,290 --> 00:05:55,230 S1: Good old Moby, Moby Dick. So. So you. But here's what. 108 00:05:55,270 --> 00:05:58,870 S1: Here's the other thing I noticed that you use. Michael. 109 00:05:58,870 --> 00:06:01,830 S1: You are first person with Michael, but then you get 110 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:05,789 S1: to Lucifer and your third person you describe rather than 111 00:06:05,830 --> 00:06:08,070 S1: getting into his head. Why? 112 00:06:08,790 --> 00:06:13,030 S3: Well, I think, you know, we need a main character 113 00:06:13,029 --> 00:06:15,990 S3: in a sense. And and I think Michael made made 114 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:18,110 S3: sense there. I mean, you could tell this from God's 115 00:06:18,110 --> 00:06:20,230 S3: point of view, but then you have no character arc 116 00:06:20,230 --> 00:06:24,589 S3: because he's the same yesterday, today and forever. But, you know, 117 00:06:24,630 --> 00:06:28,390 S3: this teaches readers the way it taught me. I mean, 118 00:06:28,430 --> 00:06:31,349 S3: I guess I knew this, but, you know, it didn't 119 00:06:31,350 --> 00:06:34,229 S3: come to the fore until Mark explained it to me. 120 00:06:34,510 --> 00:06:38,270 S3: Angels clearly had a free will. They had, you know, 121 00:06:38,310 --> 00:06:42,390 S3: the power to choose. And that means even Michael and 122 00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:45,150 S3: Gabriel and, you know, the other angels did too, because 123 00:06:45,470 --> 00:06:50,110 S3: Lucifer chose he he got prideful and he chose. He 124 00:06:50,110 --> 00:06:53,849 S3: wanted his own way And in a bizarre way, I 125 00:06:53,890 --> 00:06:57,730 S3: found that I'm relating actually to the Lucifer character, because 126 00:06:57,730 --> 00:07:00,650 S3: I've said in the past, if I were God, I 127 00:07:00,650 --> 00:07:02,810 S3: would have done it this way, as if I have 128 00:07:02,810 --> 00:07:06,010 S3: a better idea than the King of the universe, you know? Um, 129 00:07:06,010 --> 00:07:08,490 S3: but that's what I think that's part of what we 130 00:07:08,490 --> 00:07:11,770 S3: want readers to take away is they're going to be 131 00:07:11,810 --> 00:07:14,930 S3: asking the same questions that these angels asked. Bingo. 132 00:07:15,130 --> 00:07:18,489 S1: Okay. Mark. So this is an audacious this is an epic. 133 00:07:18,530 --> 00:07:22,250 S1: This is huge. When did you get the idea? How did. 134 00:07:22,290 --> 00:07:25,130 S1: Because my understanding is you came to Jerry with this. 135 00:07:25,290 --> 00:07:27,970 S1: You two got together. Where did the idea come from? 136 00:07:28,290 --> 00:07:30,930 S2: Well, I am privileged to get to do something called 137 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:35,530 S2: the Story of Scripture, and it is an experience where 138 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:38,770 S2: we try to help people understand the grand narrative of 139 00:07:38,770 --> 00:07:44,210 S2: the Bible. And, uh, it has really been brewing for 140 00:07:44,210 --> 00:07:46,410 S2: quite some time for me, I would say for well 141 00:07:46,410 --> 00:07:50,940 S2: over a decade. And, um, I think that especially in 142 00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:54,660 S2: what's happening in our culture today and and there's lots 143 00:07:54,660 --> 00:07:57,340 S2: of readers, but I'm thrilled with Gen Z is starting 144 00:07:57,340 --> 00:08:00,820 S2: to read big time. And they are they are fascinated 145 00:08:00,820 --> 00:08:03,420 S2: with the world of the Bible. And so it's been 146 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:06,620 S2: there probably for a decade. And God's kindness. Uh, Jerry 147 00:08:06,660 --> 00:08:09,620 S2: and I were introduced by a, a common friend. And 148 00:08:09,620 --> 00:08:12,260 S2: we sat together and we realized that we actually get 149 00:08:12,260 --> 00:08:15,900 S2: along and have all sorts of common friends that we know. 150 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:20,020 S2: And so I was just scared to death. And, uh, 151 00:08:20,020 --> 00:08:21,980 S2: he was like, hey, how can I help you with this? 152 00:08:21,980 --> 00:08:23,860 S2: And can I coach you up? And can I give 153 00:08:23,860 --> 00:08:27,059 S2: you some? And finally, about two weeks after him hanging around, 154 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:29,740 S2: I said, well, what, what if we wrote it together? 155 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:32,380 S2: And he said, I think he said something about, well, 156 00:08:32,380 --> 00:08:34,179 S2: it took you long enough to ask, you know, and 157 00:08:34,179 --> 00:08:36,300 S2: he was pretty excited about it. And then we were 158 00:08:36,300 --> 00:08:37,219 S2: off to the races. 159 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:42,700 S1: I remember, Jerry, you and Doctor LaHaye getting together for 160 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:44,780 S1: this little series. I don't know if anybody's read it 161 00:08:44,780 --> 00:08:47,740 S1: or not or heard about it. Was it kind of 162 00:08:47,780 --> 00:08:51,880 S1: that same you know, he's got the theological, you have 163 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,160 S1: the fictional and and melding those two. 164 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,480 S3: This has actually been quite different. Um you know, left 165 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,280 S3: behind was Doctor Lahaye's idea. Uh, what, what he and 166 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,480 S3: Mark both have in common is they're both theologians and scholars. 167 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,520 S3: And I've never been accused of being either one. I'm 168 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,640 S3: a storyteller, and I know my lane. But with Doctor LaHaye, 169 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,800 S3: he didn't want to help. Right, left behind. He had 170 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,319 S3: an idea. And he said, you know, I write non-fiction books, 171 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,160 S3: but I don't write fiction. So, you know, I got 172 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,880 S3: the fun part. I write the whole thing with Mark. 173 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,240 S3: He actually writes the first draft and, uh, he, he 174 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,160 S3: knows the sequence he wants. He's very creative in the 175 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,840 S3: story he wants to tell. And so basically, I'm coming 176 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,320 S3: alongside at that point and trying to turn this into 177 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:40,880 S3: a novel. 178 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,319 S1: That's Jerry Jenkins doctor Mark Yarbrough with us today. The 179 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,740 S1: battle for Heaven and earth is our featured resource@kris.org. It 180 00:09:49,740 --> 00:09:52,860 S1: comes out. We've figured this out now. It is November 3rd, 181 00:09:53,140 --> 00:09:56,579 S1: so it is two weeks from today. It is a 182 00:09:56,580 --> 00:10:00,740 S1: story of Scripture novel. So we will entertain your questions 183 00:10:00,740 --> 00:10:18,179 S1: at (877) 548-3675. There's more coming up straight ahead on Moody Radio. Market. 184 00:10:18,179 --> 00:10:22,099 S1: Gerri have come up with a novel from an eternal perspective. 185 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:25,179 S1: It's titled The Battle for Heaven and earth. It's our 186 00:10:25,179 --> 00:10:29,939 S1: featured resource@kris.org. Doesn't come out for two weeks, November 3rd. 187 00:10:30,660 --> 00:10:32,780 S1: But if you go there and look at it and 188 00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:37,020 S1: there's some ancillary peripheral things that are going to be 189 00:10:37,020 --> 00:10:40,540 S1: released along with this, like a Bible study, there's a soundtrack. 190 00:10:40,580 --> 00:10:43,380 S1: That was one of the questions I had. There's music 191 00:10:43,380 --> 00:10:47,840 S1: in here that the angel, the angelic host sing is like, 192 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,480 S1: where did that? Is that a. And we're gonna find 193 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,600 S1: out all of that and a whole lot more. But 194 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,960 S1: here's Mark, I want to ask you, put you on 195 00:10:54,960 --> 00:11:01,120 S1: the hot seat in. At one point, uh, Michael says something. 196 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,920 S1: Something is wrong with something is the way Lucifer is 197 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,560 S1: acting or whatever. And, um, and he said I couldn't 198 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,040 S1: put my finger on it. And I thought, okay, so 199 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,080 S1: do angels have fingers? And that gets me down to, 200 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,720 S1: you know, when the battle happens, what kind of weapons 201 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,840 S1: do they have? And how do the imagery that's used 202 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,880 S1: for the eternal. So do angels have fingers and how 203 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,079 S1: or back up from that? How did you portray the 204 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,400 S1: angelic host? 205 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,480 S2: Well, we did it in a lot of creative ways. 206 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,800 S2: I mean, obviously we jumped into the text, right? So 207 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,800 S2: there are descriptions of angels in the Bible that, uh, 208 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:50,130 S2: are wonderfully, frightening or inspiring. Creaturely, right? I mean, you 209 00:11:50,130 --> 00:11:53,530 S2: get some great descriptions in the beginning of Isaiah and 210 00:11:54,010 --> 00:11:59,929 S2: descriptions in Ezekiel. You get descriptions in Daniel and in, uh, 211 00:12:00,010 --> 00:12:03,250 S2: the book of revelation. So there are times that they're creaturely. 212 00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:05,850 S2: There are other times that they're very human and they 213 00:12:05,850 --> 00:12:08,610 S2: come across that way. And so we went with a 214 00:12:08,610 --> 00:12:11,210 S2: little bit of both really. I mean, they can fly, 215 00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:15,530 S2: they can move, they talk, obviously they communicate. Um, they 216 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:18,890 S2: are enamored when Adam and Eve come on the scene 217 00:12:18,890 --> 00:12:21,209 S2: and that they kind of look like them, but they 218 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:23,650 S2: kind of don't. Right. And so there's a, there's a, 219 00:12:23,650 --> 00:12:26,290 S2: there's certainly a little bit of that in there of 220 00:12:26,490 --> 00:12:31,010 S2: how we tried to, uh, describe them. So we wanted 221 00:12:31,010 --> 00:12:34,329 S2: to go biblical and then yet open the door for creativity. 222 00:12:34,570 --> 00:12:38,250 S1: What about the language that's used? Jerry. You don't it's like, uh. 223 00:12:38,290 --> 00:12:42,730 S1: Michael nudged. Uh. Gabriel. Hey, dude, you know you didn't 224 00:12:42,730 --> 00:12:46,750 S1: do that. You kept the language lofty, right? 225 00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:49,110 S3: Yeah. I mean, you want it to sound like the 226 00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:52,630 S3: Scripture sounds. This is where we get our information. But, 227 00:12:52,670 --> 00:12:54,550 S3: you know, I have the best of all worlds here, 228 00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:57,589 S3: because I can always say I tried to talk him 229 00:12:57,590 --> 00:13:01,190 S3: out of that. If you don't like it, I'm not 230 00:13:01,190 --> 00:13:04,790 S3: a theologian. I mean, I just write stories. Um, but 231 00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:07,750 S3: we had great fun with it because again, you want 232 00:13:07,790 --> 00:13:10,590 S3: to stay, you know, the fidelity of Scripture is important 233 00:13:10,590 --> 00:13:13,070 S3: to both of us. And, uh, and so when we 234 00:13:13,070 --> 00:13:16,230 S3: get to the biblical parts, we're mirroring those as exactly 235 00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:21,110 S3: as we can, but we invent characters, we invent conversations. 236 00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:24,550 S3: And I think, um, the way we think of angels, 237 00:13:24,590 --> 00:13:26,630 S3: you know, I, I used to have this sort of 238 00:13:26,670 --> 00:13:29,310 S3: elementary view of, you know, we have guardian angels and 239 00:13:29,309 --> 00:13:32,270 S3: they're warm and fuzzy and, you know, they do good things, 240 00:13:32,630 --> 00:13:35,309 S3: not thinking about the fact that they have free will 241 00:13:35,309 --> 00:13:38,030 S3: and they could that they can choose evil. And, and 242 00:13:38,070 --> 00:13:43,610 S3: that Gabriel and, uh, and Michael would both say, so 243 00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:46,490 S3: if you're God and you knew this was going to happen, 244 00:13:46,490 --> 00:13:49,450 S3: did you create evil? Did you? You know, why do 245 00:13:49,450 --> 00:13:51,970 S3: you allow this? I mean, those are the questions readers 246 00:13:51,970 --> 00:13:53,730 S3: are going to ask, and I want them to be 247 00:13:53,770 --> 00:13:56,290 S3: able to identify with those characters. So we give them 248 00:13:56,290 --> 00:13:58,050 S3: some human characteristics too. 249 00:13:58,290 --> 00:14:00,410 S2: Now, Chris, one of the other questions, though, that you 250 00:14:00,410 --> 00:14:04,370 S2: asked was about the war. The battle scenes. You okay 251 00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:06,210 S2: if I jump on that one for just a minute 252 00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:06,810 S2: because it was. 253 00:14:07,010 --> 00:14:07,810 S1: Get the sword. 254 00:14:07,809 --> 00:14:11,650 S2: Out. It was a fascinating discussion and we had that. Okay, 255 00:14:11,690 --> 00:14:13,929 S2: I'm going to say something that sounds a little irreverent. 256 00:14:13,929 --> 00:14:15,850 S2: So you beat me if you need to. You know, 257 00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:18,970 S2: I mean, people ask, how did you decide on what 258 00:14:18,970 --> 00:14:20,490 S2: that was going to look like? And I said, well, 259 00:14:20,490 --> 00:14:23,210 S2: it's somewhere between Lord of the rings and Harry Potter. 260 00:14:23,250 --> 00:14:26,650 S2: You know, I mean, in terms of here's what was fascinating, okay, 261 00:14:26,650 --> 00:14:28,970 S2: now I want to go to the biblical text. Uh, 262 00:14:29,010 --> 00:14:32,410 S2: the descriptions that we get of angels in the Bible, okay. 263 00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:38,010 S2: It's varied, but they're described with swords. It is battle 264 00:14:38,010 --> 00:14:42,310 S2: pictures and metaphors. They can be detained. Uh, you know, 265 00:14:42,350 --> 00:14:45,150 S2: in the New Testament, we have pictures of angels that 266 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:49,590 S2: have been captured and chained, waiting for days of judgment. 267 00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:53,270 S2: Get that. We get incredible descriptions with Peter and Jude 268 00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:57,270 S2: in both of their epistles. And so you do have 269 00:14:57,270 --> 00:15:01,430 S2: some big decisions to make in, in heaven, it's described 270 00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:05,830 S2: of flame and heat and, you know, bright lights around 271 00:15:05,830 --> 00:15:11,470 S2: the throne. And so when we started building this battle, 272 00:15:11,510 --> 00:15:13,830 S2: those are the kinds of things that we brought in. 273 00:15:13,830 --> 00:15:18,590 S2: So there are real battles that fight that we describe. 274 00:15:18,950 --> 00:15:21,750 S2: And it's good guys and bad guys, and it is 275 00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:25,350 S2: heat and energy and things like that. And so that's 276 00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:29,870 S2: kind of how we went into the real conflict that 277 00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:33,190 S2: in our description of it that we had them carry out. 278 00:15:33,550 --> 00:15:36,630 S1: And we there's one section. Let me read this. Get Jerry. 279 00:15:36,670 --> 00:15:40,010 S1: I shouted two arms and drew my sword. Another singularly 280 00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:43,970 S1: new experience. This is Michael. No surprise. The hilt of 281 00:15:43,970 --> 00:15:49,010 S1: the armament God himself had crafted just for me settled 282 00:15:49,010 --> 00:15:53,450 S1: into my palm, the heft of its long, gleaming blade 283 00:15:53,450 --> 00:15:56,610 S1: of light. Feeling perfect. Okay, Jerry. Go. 284 00:15:56,890 --> 00:15:58,930 S3: Yeah, I was going to say that. You know, we've 285 00:15:58,930 --> 00:16:01,290 S3: had people, you know, you can pre-order the book. So 286 00:16:01,290 --> 00:16:04,490 S3: people are ordering advanced reader copies. And we had somebody 287 00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:07,370 S3: write and say, show me a verse where it says 288 00:16:07,370 --> 00:16:10,170 S3: that angels can be wounded. And of course, I turned 289 00:16:10,170 --> 00:16:14,090 S3: to my theologian and I say, you know, she wants 290 00:16:14,090 --> 00:16:16,930 S3: to know how can can angels be wounded? And Mark 291 00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:19,130 S3: basically is saying, show me a scripture that says they 292 00:16:19,130 --> 00:16:23,970 S3: can't if they can be detained. Um, you know, if 293 00:16:23,970 --> 00:16:26,890 S3: they couldn't be wounded, that battle wouldn't have taken long. 294 00:16:26,930 --> 00:16:29,970 S3: It would have been immediate. But clearly there was some 295 00:16:30,530 --> 00:16:33,490 S3: fighting going on and, and there was give and take 296 00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:34,970 S3: in it or hindered. 297 00:16:35,010 --> 00:16:38,380 S1: There's one part in Scripture where that one angel was 298 00:16:38,380 --> 00:16:40,980 S1: hindered for going. Going, wasn't it, Michael? 299 00:16:41,380 --> 00:16:44,180 S2: Yeah. The book of Daniel. Yeah. There's a and that's 300 00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:47,540 S2: what we're saying, is that the glimpses that we get 301 00:16:47,540 --> 00:16:54,620 S2: in Scripture, uh, are, are more, uh, warfare oriented than 302 00:16:54,620 --> 00:16:58,060 S2: we realize. I mean, even in chapter three, when Adam 303 00:16:58,060 --> 00:17:00,740 S2: and Eve are driven out of the garden, the very 304 00:17:00,740 --> 00:17:05,340 S2: last phrase is a cherubim is placed with a flaming sword, 305 00:17:05,340 --> 00:17:08,660 S2: preventing them from access to the tree of life. So 306 00:17:08,660 --> 00:17:13,139 S2: the language that is used is very physical in its 307 00:17:13,180 --> 00:17:17,540 S2: portrayal of this, this battle that is going on in 308 00:17:17,540 --> 00:17:18,459 S2: the background. 309 00:17:18,820 --> 00:17:21,780 S1: Can an angel then, if they can be wounded, can 310 00:17:21,820 --> 00:17:28,620 S1: an angel be killed? Aren't angels eternal? And there is no, um. 311 00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:32,939 S1: There's no redemption for angels because they have no kinsman redeemer. 312 00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:36,340 S1: So they get one choice. This is my understanding. You 313 00:17:36,340 --> 00:17:39,439 S1: get one choice, you make your choice. You're going to 314 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,920 S1: serve him or you serve him and that's it. Is 315 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,240 S1: that how you feel? 316 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,360 S2: Well, we don't have any. We don't have any. Angels 317 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,560 S2: die in the novel. We're just going to go ahead 318 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,760 S2: and say that. Well, I'm not blowing anything by saying 319 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,000 S2: that there are wounds. There are deep wounds, there are scars, 320 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:01,320 S2: there are physical and emotional, and they're wrestling with this 321 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,879 S2: concept of evil that has come in. I think it 322 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:05,720 S2: kind of hit Jerry and I, as we're writing this 323 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,959 S2: thing of the shock that it was and the angelic realm, 324 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,280 S2: to have someone like Lucifer, that was a possibly the 325 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:19,640 S2: highest ranking cherubim that is described in regard to, uh, 326 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,760 S2: the protection of the glory of God and then turn 327 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,960 S2: and want that upon himself. And so it was a 328 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,760 S2: shock to the angelic realm when all of this goes down. 329 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,440 S1: That was one thing that, uh, I like I've thought 330 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,980 S1: about this kind of thing before, but that's what the 331 00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:41,380 S1: novel did for me. And it was. Go into the 332 00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:44,340 S1: thought process of Michael and Gabriel that they have to 333 00:18:44,380 --> 00:18:51,100 S1: wrestle with emotions, the anger, the incomprehensibility of a revolt 334 00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:57,140 S1: where everything is perfect. They'd never experienced anything like that. Right, Mark? 335 00:18:57,180 --> 00:19:00,860 S2: Yeah, very much so. And I think that that's when 336 00:19:00,859 --> 00:19:04,340 S2: Jerry said at the beginning that we connect the reader 337 00:19:04,340 --> 00:19:08,060 S2: connects with the and the angels. I mean, not just 338 00:19:08,060 --> 00:19:10,379 S2: because the point of view is told from Michael, right? 339 00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:14,420 S2: In that first person that we get. But they asked 340 00:19:14,420 --> 00:19:18,500 S2: the questions that every one of us ask about God. 341 00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:21,260 S2: Why did you allow this to happen? They say it 342 00:19:21,260 --> 00:19:26,500 S2: with respect. God knows what they're already wrestling with. Uh, 343 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:31,540 S2: that they're wrestling with pain. God knows that. So we 344 00:19:31,540 --> 00:19:34,880 S2: really do connect with the, the angels, they are the 345 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,440 S2: characters in the story that we're standing right there with 346 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,480 S2: them as they're begging God for answers. And sometimes God 347 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,920 S2: does answer, and sometimes God says, I'm sovereign and you're not, 348 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,400 S2: and I need you to trust me. Trust me, even 349 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,520 S2: when it doesn't make sense. And I need you to 350 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,720 S2: still obey. And they're like, we're with you to the end. 351 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,040 S1: Jerry, what did you argue with him about concerning this? 352 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,080 S1: You had to have disagreement about something. 353 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,440 S3: We didn't really disagree about too much. Um, but, you know, I, 354 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,080 S3: I learned a lot. I feel like I've been to, 355 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,960 S3: to Dallas Theological Seminary in Yarborough Theological Seminary. Um, the 356 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,520 S3: fact that God reminds Gabriel that you two have free will. 357 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,920 S3: And so I want you to choose to, to follow 358 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,800 S3: and to obey. Um, but for, you know, we have 359 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,840 S3: a different kind of calendar. Obviously in eternity past, everything 360 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,000 S3: happens at the same time to God, but to the reader, 361 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,260 S3: they have to see this in sequence. And so we're 362 00:20:33,260 --> 00:20:38,100 S3: implying that for eons there was no pride in sin 363 00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:41,340 S3: and this and that from from Lucifer. And and then 364 00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:46,060 S3: when it starts to appear in conversation, uh, they struggle 365 00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:48,260 S3: with this and they say, what is this? What do 366 00:20:48,260 --> 00:20:50,620 S3: you call this? And why do you allow this? 367 00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:54,060 S1: Okay, so that's a good point, Mark, to bring you 368 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:56,700 S1: a Mark Yarbrough. Jerry Jenkins with us at the back 369 00:20:56,740 --> 00:20:59,859 S1: fence today. If you go to Chris Fabry live.org, you'll 370 00:20:59,859 --> 00:21:02,540 S1: see the battle for heaven and earth. If we're talking 371 00:21:02,540 --> 00:21:09,220 S1: about eternity and time and time, how do you have 372 00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:15,380 S1: a progression of that when you're writing in the eternal perspective? 373 00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:16,580 S1: Does that make sense? Yeah. 374 00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:19,500 S2: Okay. Well, even the even the angels wrestled with this. 375 00:21:19,540 --> 00:21:23,899 S2: I mean, they, they get lost in time. And as 376 00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:28,659 S2: things begin to have a sequence to them, uh, they 377 00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:34,350 S2: become more aware of movement of time. And that's kind 378 00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:37,070 S2: of fascinating. So at first, right when they're in this 379 00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:42,350 S2: moment of eternal worship and gathering around the throne, and 380 00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:45,389 S2: then all of a sudden something has occurred in the 381 00:21:45,390 --> 00:21:50,710 S2: heavenlies that disrupt that purity. And obviously, it's the fall 382 00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:53,950 S2: of Lucifer. It's the fall of Satan. And that puts 383 00:21:53,950 --> 00:21:59,109 S2: in motion, uh, some sequences, even for them that they 384 00:21:59,109 --> 00:22:02,389 S2: wrestle with. And God is having to remind them. There's, 385 00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:05,710 S2: there's one chapter early on, um, I remember the title 386 00:22:05,710 --> 00:22:09,190 S2: of it, but in essence, God gives, uh, Michael a 387 00:22:09,190 --> 00:22:13,510 S2: command to see, see my beauty. And, uh, it was a, 388 00:22:13,550 --> 00:22:15,790 S2: we're getting some interesting in some of the pre reads 389 00:22:15,790 --> 00:22:19,310 S2: on that chapter in particular of saying, hey, make sure 390 00:22:19,310 --> 00:22:22,550 S2: that even in the midst of, we get very, we 391 00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:26,189 S2: readers even can get very temporal in our pain, right? 392 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:29,230 S2: And God is in many ways asking Michael to come 393 00:22:29,230 --> 00:22:32,050 S2: above the fray and not forget the beauty of who 394 00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:34,250 S2: God is, and that he is always the same, and 395 00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:37,889 S2: he has not changed. The circumstances may have changed from 396 00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:41,690 S2: Michael's vantage point, but God has not changed. And so 397 00:22:41,730 --> 00:22:43,450 S2: I think there are some subtle ways that we try 398 00:22:43,450 --> 00:22:47,050 S2: to bring time into this dialogue. And it's different even 399 00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:47,850 S2: for the angels. 400 00:22:48,450 --> 00:22:53,970 S1: Pride was another thing. Uh, pride when Michael, when God 401 00:22:53,970 --> 00:22:58,929 S1: is speaking to Michael and dealing with pride, his first 402 00:22:58,970 --> 00:23:01,129 S1: response is, well, am I not supposed to be proud 403 00:23:01,130 --> 00:23:06,409 S1: of you? You know? And then God says, that's that's fine. 404 00:23:06,450 --> 00:23:09,970 S1: I'm paraphrasing here. It's okay to paraphrase you guys. Uh, 405 00:23:09,970 --> 00:23:12,969 S1: it's fine for that. But when the object of pride 406 00:23:12,970 --> 00:23:18,130 S1: is yourself and that's where where it's coming from, Lucifer, 407 00:23:18,369 --> 00:23:21,690 S1: when it's yourself, then it goes off the rails, right? 408 00:23:22,210 --> 00:23:25,370 S3: Yeah. And that's, that all fits in to, to the, 409 00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:28,530 S3: to the economy of time when we talk about sequence. 410 00:23:28,590 --> 00:23:32,550 S3: I've long been fascinated by, by that difference of of 411 00:23:32,670 --> 00:23:34,830 S3: how God views time and how we view time. And 412 00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:37,390 S3: Scripture is clear that to God a day is as 413 00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:40,189 S3: a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. 414 00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:42,830 S3: And you can imagine back in the left behind heyday, 415 00:23:43,070 --> 00:23:45,430 S3: we've got this question all the time. Why does Scripture 416 00:23:45,470 --> 00:23:47,910 S3: say to watch and wait for the imminent return? How 417 00:23:47,910 --> 00:23:50,510 S3: imminent can it be when it's been over 2000 years 418 00:23:50,510 --> 00:23:54,310 S3: since he said that? And, and we we would always say, 419 00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:58,670 S3: if God and His mercy waits one more day in 420 00:23:58,670 --> 00:24:01,230 S3: our economy of time, that could be a thousand years. 421 00:24:01,790 --> 00:24:03,990 S3: Those are the kind of things we're we're wrestling with 422 00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:06,990 S3: here too, is that, um, while to God this may 423 00:24:06,990 --> 00:24:10,510 S3: all be happening in the same instant to, to readers, 424 00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:14,790 S3: to us, you know, mortals, we, we see it in sequence. 425 00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:15,870 S4: How does this fit. 426 00:24:15,869 --> 00:24:19,910 S1: In with your fictional dictum? And I've heard this just 427 00:24:19,910 --> 00:24:22,949 S1: about all my adult life. Get your character in terrible 428 00:24:22,990 --> 00:24:26,310 S1: trouble and make it worse and worse and worse, so 429 00:24:26,310 --> 00:24:29,050 S1: that the reader is how are they going? How is 430 00:24:29,050 --> 00:24:30,729 S1: he going to get out of this? How did you 431 00:24:30,730 --> 00:24:31,570 S1: do that, Jerry? 432 00:24:31,810 --> 00:24:36,570 S3: Yeah. I think, um, you know what happens there if 433 00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:40,449 S3: Lucifer is I mean, of course, Lucifer is the villain. Um, 434 00:24:40,730 --> 00:24:44,890 S3: he doesn't think he's in trouble. He thinks he's in charge. Um, 435 00:24:44,930 --> 00:24:49,449 S3: with Michael and with Gabriel. They're watching all this, and 436 00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:52,330 S3: they're thrilled by creation. They're thrilled by what they're seeing, 437 00:24:52,369 --> 00:24:55,689 S3: you know, God creating, uh, humans in his own image 438 00:24:55,690 --> 00:24:59,250 S3: and that type of thing. But to them, things get 439 00:24:59,250 --> 00:25:02,689 S3: worse and worse because by the time you get to, 440 00:25:02,930 --> 00:25:06,649 S3: to the garden and after the perfection of Adam and 441 00:25:06,650 --> 00:25:09,609 S3: Eve and how creative they are and all that, um, 442 00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:13,330 S3: when they fall, everything they try to do to make 443 00:25:13,330 --> 00:25:15,610 S3: it better makes it worse. And they get banished from 444 00:25:15,609 --> 00:25:20,050 S3: the garden. Um, you know, we both have a worldview 445 00:25:20,050 --> 00:25:23,450 S3: of hope. I like stories with happy endings. This was 446 00:25:23,450 --> 00:25:25,650 S3: a hard one to end on a happy note when 447 00:25:25,730 --> 00:25:29,350 S3: the perfect couple gets cast out of the perfect garden. Yes, 448 00:25:29,390 --> 00:25:31,670 S3: but God himself says, somebody's coming. 449 00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:35,709 S1: And we. Yeah, that is that is it? He's coming. Uh, 450 00:25:35,710 --> 00:25:37,230 S1: and we're going to get into that. We're going to 451 00:25:37,230 --> 00:25:40,310 S1: get into Adam and Eve and more about the battle 452 00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:44,190 S1: for heaven and earth. Featured resource. Chris fabriclive.org comes out 453 00:25:44,190 --> 00:25:51,230 S1: in two weeks. Here's our number (877) 548-3675 more straight ahead. 454 00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:07,670 S1: A good story will make you think. A really good 455 00:26:07,670 --> 00:26:13,470 S1: story will let you see yourself. And both of those 456 00:26:13,470 --> 00:26:16,910 S1: things happen in the book that doctor Mark Yarbrough and 457 00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:20,270 S1: Jerry Jenkins have put together titled The Battle for Heaven 458 00:26:20,270 --> 00:26:24,030 S1: and earth A Story of Scripture novel. Yeah, they go 459 00:26:24,030 --> 00:26:29,440 S1: into eternity past. They talk about the fall of Satan, Lucifer, 460 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,320 S1: and all that happened then in creation with Adam and Eve. 461 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,320 S1: There's not only a map of the garden, you get 462 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,480 S1: to see what Adam and Eve were like pre fall, 463 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,200 S1: what Eden was like. So there's a lot of questions 464 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,680 S1: I have. And, uh, one of the things that I 465 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,879 S1: encountered though, as soon as I saw the first few chapters, 466 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,639 S1: I saw this music that was in the, the lyrics 467 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,600 S1: that were the angels singing, and I typed it into 468 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,920 S1: my browser because it's like that, that sounds like a 469 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,160 S1: song that I've heard before. And Mark, that was not 470 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,280 S1: a song that I've heard before. Right? 471 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,320 S2: Yeah. Um, here's how it all kind of started. You know, 472 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,360 S2: when we were in the heavenlies, obviously writing, uh, you know, it, 473 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,960 S2: it was fascinating study for me. I would stop and 474 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,040 S2: get derailed. What what do the angels. How many times 475 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:28,139 S2: in Scripture are angels talked about worshiping God around the throne. 476 00:27:28,140 --> 00:27:31,300 S2: And it's a stunning amount of times. And so in 477 00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:34,419 S2: the novel, I would start writing and the angels sang, 478 00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:37,500 S2: and it was just a little chorus. And then I 479 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:41,939 S2: would start writing a full song. And then it, it, uh, 480 00:27:42,420 --> 00:27:45,500 S2: turned into more than that. So in the novel, there 481 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:50,380 S2: are ten brand new songs that have been written by 482 00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:55,220 S2: different characters, obviously in the novel. And then we called 483 00:27:55,220 --> 00:27:58,580 S2: in some friends of ours and went to Nashville. I 484 00:27:58,580 --> 00:28:01,540 S2: wrote out all the music for it. And so we're 485 00:28:01,540 --> 00:28:07,060 S2: going to release a full soundtrack with the battle for 486 00:28:07,060 --> 00:28:08,700 S2: Heaven and earth. So it's the battle for Heaven and 487 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:10,060 S2: earth soundtrack. Wow. 488 00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:12,179 S1: Okay, you can't tell me any of the people who 489 00:28:12,220 --> 00:28:13,460 S1: are singing yet, right? 490 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:15,980 S2: Actually, I'm happy to tell you some of the people 491 00:28:15,980 --> 00:28:18,260 S2: that are singing. So we have a good friend, one 492 00:28:18,260 --> 00:28:21,980 S2: of our guys at Dallas Seminary. His name is Todd Agnew. 493 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,920 S2: Todd was a calm guy that traveled for years and 494 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,360 S2: years and years, and a bunch of songs that you 495 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,480 S2: would recognize. A friend that Gerry introduced me to, a 496 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,680 S2: guy in the Southern gospel world. 497 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:35,520 S1: Not Ernie. 498 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,320 S2: Ernie Haase and signature sound. Do a, do a song. Hey, 499 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,520 S2: this is the first time we're saying this, Chris, by 500 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,560 S2: the way. So this is kind of fun doing it 501 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,480 S2: with you. Uh, got by the name of Mike Weaver, 502 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,360 S2: Big Daddy Weave. You know, a lot of his songs. 503 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,400 S2: He did a song. And so we've just got some 504 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,880 S2: different friends that came in and did these. And it's 505 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,479 S2: going to release a few weeks after the novel. So 506 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,440 S2: the novel's November 3rd, and there's going to be one 507 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,400 S2: song that drops with that. It's kind of to whet 508 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,000 S2: the whet the appetite. And then on January the 15th, 509 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,200 S2: all the rest of the full album will drop. So 510 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,160 S2: we're excited about it. 511 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,880 S1: I knew you guys, when you go big, you got 512 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:13,840 S1: to go big, right? 513 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,360 S2: You gotta go big or go home. Chris come on out. 514 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,160 S1: Whole hog as they say. Okay. And some of those 515 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,540 S1: there's there's also some teaching videos that are coming out. 516 00:29:23,540 --> 00:29:26,140 S1: There are Bible studies. So how do how do people 517 00:29:26,140 --> 00:29:26,940 S1: find those? 518 00:29:28,380 --> 00:29:32,540 S3: I think the best place is, um, battle for Heaven 519 00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:38,700 S3: and earth book.com.com. Okay. And we shot those videos on 520 00:29:38,740 --> 00:29:40,980 S3: the set of The chosen because I know a guy. 521 00:29:41,020 --> 00:29:41,740 S1: No. 522 00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:43,420 S3: You're kidding. Yeah. They're pretty. 523 00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:45,340 S1: It just keeps getting better and better. 524 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:48,620 S3: Well, and this won't surprise you, Chris, but you know, 525 00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:54,780 S3: the the difference in weight between our theological knowledge. Uh, 526 00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:57,180 S3: I would start the video by saying, here's what we're 527 00:29:57,180 --> 00:30:00,420 S3: going to talk about. Take it Mark. And then he 528 00:30:00,420 --> 00:30:01,100 S3: would teach. 529 00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:04,620 S2: Now that's not totally true. We had some wonderful discussions 530 00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:07,260 S2: about some great theological topics that come out of the book. 531 00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:08,940 S2: And so yeah, it was fun. It was fun. 532 00:30:08,980 --> 00:30:11,420 S1: Okay. The battle for heaven. Is it the battle for 533 00:30:11,420 --> 00:30:13,940 S1: heaven or earth book.com or just battle. 534 00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:14,340 S2: The. 535 00:30:14,380 --> 00:30:14,700 S1: Battle? 536 00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:18,780 S2: The battle for Heaven and earth book.com. There you go. 537 00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:22,400 S1: Uh, Mike is on the line in Tennessee. Mike, why 538 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,320 S1: did you call today? 539 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:29,080 S5: Yes, sir. Um, I. Okay. I can't remember which one 540 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,560 S5: of the guests said it, but one of them said 541 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,280 S5: that they were talking about, you know, Michael and Gabriel 542 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,760 S5: asked God, why? Why did why did you create Satan 543 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,440 S5: when you knew this was going to happen? And that 544 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,000 S5: makes me think, I think, different than a lot of people. 545 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,120 S5: But that made me wonder, okay, then, is that not 546 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:58,320 S5: like when Judas was created to betray, to betray Jesus Christ? 547 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,280 S5: Is that kind of the same thing? Um, uh, I, 548 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,720 S5: I just really wanted to hear what they had to 549 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,800 S5: say about that. Yes. A parallel between a Christian and I'm, 550 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,520 S5: you know, been a believer for most of my life 551 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,840 S5: since a child. But just if y'all could elaborate on that, 552 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,850 S5: I don't have to stay on the line, but if 553 00:31:19,890 --> 00:31:22,450 S5: y'all could elaborate on that, I'd appreciate it. 554 00:31:22,490 --> 00:31:22,930 S4: It's a great. 555 00:31:22,930 --> 00:31:24,330 S1: Parallel. Mark, what do you say? 556 00:31:24,370 --> 00:31:26,770 S2: Yeah. Thanks, brother. What a great question. You know, in 557 00:31:26,770 --> 00:31:29,250 S2: one sense it is asking the question of why does 558 00:31:29,250 --> 00:31:32,050 S2: God allow evil? Why does he allow bad things into 559 00:31:32,570 --> 00:31:36,170 S2: our our lives? And if you are like me, I've 560 00:31:36,170 --> 00:31:38,890 S2: got a long list of things that God allowed to 561 00:31:38,890 --> 00:31:41,890 S2: happen that I wish he would not. And it is 562 00:31:41,890 --> 00:31:44,330 S2: what it means to live in a fallen, broken world 563 00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:48,850 S2: under a sovereign God. And ultimately, that's what the angels 564 00:31:48,850 --> 00:31:53,050 S2: are asking. And I do believe that Scripture gives us 565 00:31:53,050 --> 00:31:58,050 S2: some insight into some of these things. Ultimately, it is 566 00:31:58,090 --> 00:32:00,410 S2: God is sovereign. I mean, and that's what it means 567 00:32:00,410 --> 00:32:03,450 S2: when He is God and we are not. It simply 568 00:32:03,450 --> 00:32:06,570 S2: means that his ways are not our ways. He sees things. 569 00:32:06,570 --> 00:32:09,930 S2: He knows things that we do not. And he continues 570 00:32:09,930 --> 00:32:12,770 S2: to ask us, trust me, even when you can't see. 571 00:32:12,970 --> 00:32:17,550 S2: And that's ultimately what the angels reference. And that's biblical. Uh, 572 00:32:17,550 --> 00:32:19,870 S2: you know, the passage of scripture that we get in 573 00:32:19,910 --> 00:32:23,590 S2: first Peter chapter one, verse 12. It uses that phrase 574 00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:27,190 S2: that even angels long to look into these things. They 575 00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:31,670 S2: don't know all that God is doing, but they themselves 576 00:32:31,670 --> 00:32:34,070 S2: are asked to trust. And so that's what we wanted 577 00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:37,870 S2: to surface in the novel to show it is a 578 00:32:37,870 --> 00:32:42,070 S2: question of sovereignty and trust, even in the midst of 579 00:32:42,070 --> 00:32:45,150 S2: this broken, messy, ugly world. 580 00:32:45,470 --> 00:32:49,670 S1: Well, and I think the the inference with Judas then 581 00:32:49,710 --> 00:32:54,270 S1: is what was, was because I called Mike said he 582 00:32:54,270 --> 00:32:57,590 S1: was created to betray Jesus. I don't know that that's 583 00:32:57,590 --> 00:33:02,510 S1: fully true. I think Judas had a choice that he made. 584 00:33:02,710 --> 00:33:07,110 S1: And Lucifer had a choice. He wasn't created to fall. 585 00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:10,190 S1: But God knew this. And this is where we have 586 00:33:10,190 --> 00:33:13,350 S1: to wrestle with what sovereignty is, right? 587 00:33:13,630 --> 00:33:16,690 S3: Yeah. And and I think I was hoping as a 588 00:33:16,690 --> 00:33:20,210 S3: as a writer and a reader that, you know, working 589 00:33:20,210 --> 00:33:26,050 S3: with Mark and in representing this great theological seminary that 590 00:33:26,050 --> 00:33:29,090 S3: we would get the answers. Why did God create evil? 591 00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:32,170 S3: Why did you know? And he basically says to the angels, 592 00:33:32,650 --> 00:33:35,410 S3: my ways are not your ways. I think in a 593 00:33:35,410 --> 00:33:37,850 S3: different plane than you do. And I think there are 594 00:33:37,850 --> 00:33:39,570 S3: a lot of these questions are not going to be 595 00:33:39,570 --> 00:33:43,730 S3: answered this side of, of heaven. And, uh, but, but 596 00:33:43,730 --> 00:33:47,170 S3: we still believe that God is sovereign. That's, that's probably 597 00:33:47,170 --> 00:33:49,130 S3: one of the hardest parts of the Christian life. You 598 00:33:49,130 --> 00:33:54,130 S3: see injustice, you see abuse, you see defenseless people suffering 599 00:33:54,450 --> 00:33:59,170 S3: and sometimes, you know, praying forever for, for relief and 600 00:33:59,170 --> 00:34:01,890 S3: not getting it and saying, if I were God, I 601 00:34:01,890 --> 00:34:05,250 S3: would have done it this way. What is that besides 602 00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:08,850 S3: pride and, and us deciding that we know better than 603 00:34:08,850 --> 00:34:09,810 S3: the sovereign God? 604 00:34:10,010 --> 00:34:13,890 S1: Okay, so let's go to the that the fall there, 605 00:34:13,950 --> 00:34:18,630 S1: not Lucifer, but in the garden and the serpent. One 606 00:34:18,630 --> 00:34:22,070 S1: of the things that you two did was to show 607 00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:28,549 S1: the ramifications of the the ramifications of sin to not 608 00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:34,109 S1: only Adam and Eve, but then to this groaning creation 609 00:34:34,110 --> 00:34:36,430 S1: around them. Mark, talk about that. 610 00:34:36,469 --> 00:34:41,270 S2: Yeah. Paul uses that language in the New Testament and, um, he, 611 00:34:41,310 --> 00:34:44,910 S2: he says all creation is groaning, waiting for the day 612 00:34:44,910 --> 00:34:47,910 S2: of redemption. So one of the things we tried to 613 00:34:47,950 --> 00:34:53,149 S2: show is, is not just, um, sin took place, but 614 00:34:53,150 --> 00:34:57,710 S2: the ramifications. We wanted to show the struggle between Adam 615 00:34:57,710 --> 00:35:00,990 S2: and Eve and Eve and Adam. So we tried to, to, 616 00:35:01,030 --> 00:35:04,030 S2: to heighten that, that that is biblical. It's in the text. 617 00:35:04,070 --> 00:35:08,270 S2: They start blaming one another, their desire to cover themselves. 618 00:35:08,270 --> 00:35:12,069 S2: It's a pretty heavy emphasis in the text there. Strain 619 00:35:12,070 --> 00:35:15,760 S2: with God. We tried to show it in the the 620 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,319 S2: the animal kingdom. All of a sudden the the harmony 621 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,520 S2: that took place early on in the novel and what 622 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,680 S2: we would say Genesis chapter two, everything's going great. And 623 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,319 S2: then all of a sudden things are different. They hear it. 624 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,759 S2: They perceive things. Uh, they're one of the things that 625 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,279 S2: we tried to describe was even when they took off running, 626 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,799 S2: when they bolted after sin, they began to both realize 627 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,120 S2: there's a weightiness, a physical weighted ness to their bodies. 628 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,560 S2: Now think of how true that is for every one 629 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,440 S2: of you. Here are the three of us talking. And 630 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,600 S2: we're different ages in life. But man, I we all 631 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,600 S2: know that some. Something's wrong with this system here that 632 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,799 S2: we have. I have not the Mark Yarbrough at age 633 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,080 S2: 21 that could bounce around and certainly the age of 634 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,960 S2: 18 when you could do different things. And there is 635 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,420 S2: my body is heavy. Something is happening to the cellular 636 00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:15,420 S2: structure of my very being. And so we wanted to 637 00:36:15,460 --> 00:36:18,380 S2: show that as well. Does that make sense? So in 638 00:36:18,380 --> 00:36:21,100 S2: other words, everything that they could do was it starts 639 00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:21,980 S2: to fracture. 640 00:36:22,020 --> 00:36:24,500 S1: Yeah, it feels like rocks, he says. It feels like 641 00:36:24,860 --> 00:36:28,100 S1: rocks are tied to me, you know? As we're walking 642 00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:33,100 S1: here and I saw that you also, Jerry, before the fall, 643 00:36:33,380 --> 00:36:36,339 S1: you show the harmony. You show the way that they 644 00:36:36,380 --> 00:36:41,020 S1: are thinking and interacting with each other where they're not 645 00:36:41,180 --> 00:36:42,620 S1: in conflict. Right? 646 00:36:43,180 --> 00:36:47,500 S3: Yeah. The, the whole idea that Mark had of showing 647 00:36:47,620 --> 00:36:52,500 S3: Eden before the fall is really something special in, in scripture, 648 00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:56,180 S3: it's just hinted at everything's fine. And then the serpent 649 00:36:56,180 --> 00:36:59,419 S3: appears and, and we've got the problem. Um, but what 650 00:36:59,420 --> 00:37:04,460 S3: must that have been like? These people were the ideal humans. Obviously. 651 00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:09,660 S3: They were created perfectly and they had all these gifts 652 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,800 S3: and imagination, creativity. And they're in this perfect location too. 653 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,560 S3: And you know, we're all saying, don't mess this up. And, 654 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,080 S3: and yet we know what's coming. 655 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,760 S4: But don't let it happen. Don't let it happen. 656 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:24,280 S3: Exactly. 657 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,160 S2: It was an interesting thing for us, Chris, to talk about. 658 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,799 S2: In fact, it was one of the things that it 659 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,760 S2: kind of scared me early on, uh, as we started 660 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,359 S2: because Jerry kept saying how we know this, if you 661 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,919 S2: know the storyline here, which we do of Genesis one, 662 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,960 S2: two and three, how can we keep the the reader engaged? 663 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,800 S2: And so some of these things that we're talking about, 664 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,160 S2: the angelic world starting off and the tension of the fall, 665 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,760 S2: how how could the how could the fall have happened 666 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,480 S2: with Lucifer? What could have creation been like? Imagine what 667 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,560 S2: it was like being there in a perfect environment with 668 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,279 S2: perfect individuals that are gifted and skilled. Even though you 669 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,480 S2: kind of know which way it might be going, you're. 670 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,700 S2: We had fun, if I can phrase it that way. 671 00:38:11,620 --> 00:38:14,620 S2: Putting out a model to say, could it have been 672 00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:16,780 S2: like this? And so there's enough tension in the text 673 00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:18,420 S2: that I do think it engages the reader. 674 00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:22,900 S1: Yeah. That's the president of Dallas Theological Seminary, doctor Mark Yarbro, 675 00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:26,500 S1: Jerry Jenkins, New York Times best selling author. They have 676 00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:30,580 S1: teamed to write The Battle for Heaven and earth. It 677 00:38:30,580 --> 00:38:33,219 S1: comes out in two weeks on November 3rd. You can 678 00:38:33,219 --> 00:38:36,300 S1: find out more about it and some of those peripheral. 679 00:38:36,340 --> 00:38:40,060 S1: The videos and the Bible studies the soundtrack. Full soundtrack. 680 00:38:40,060 --> 00:38:51,899 S1: We have links at Chris Fabry live dot ORG. A 681 00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:54,739 S1: more program note for you in a week and a 682 00:38:54,780 --> 00:38:59,739 S1: day next Wednesday the 28th. Rosie's back and it's our 683 00:38:59,739 --> 00:39:02,980 S1: book club. And The Screwtape Letters is the book that 684 00:39:02,980 --> 00:39:05,939 S1: we have chosen. If you've never read that or it's 685 00:39:05,940 --> 00:39:08,880 S1: been a while, get a copy, read it and join 686 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,600 S1: us because Eva Rudnick is going to join us as 687 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,799 S1: well as Rosie. One week from tomorrow. Tomorrow begins Founder's 688 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,839 S1: Week at Moody Bible Institute. You can find out more 689 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,959 S1: about that. We have a link to all of this 690 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:26,360 S1: at Chris Fabry live.org. Chris fabry.org. Along with The battle 691 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,200 S1: for Heaven and Earth by doctor Mark Yarbro and Jerry 692 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,959 S1: Jenkins doesn't come out for two weeks, so you can 693 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,640 S1: preorder it. And that always helps with the with the 694 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,120 S1: book and everything that's going on. Uh, if you go 695 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,360 S1: to the website, chris.org, we have a link right there. 696 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,200 S1: Click through today's information. Okay. This will be the lightning round. Jerry, 697 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,560 S1: I have to know when you were writing the Lucifer part, 698 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,520 S1: did any bit of Nicolae Carpathia kind of sneak through 699 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,480 S1: as you're writing that? 700 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,960 S3: Well, I was just telling somebody today that, uh, they 701 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,160 S3: were talking about when they read Left Behind, you know, 702 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,770 S3: back in a previous life. Um, and I remember my 703 00:40:07,770 --> 00:40:10,650 S3: son Chad, our middle son, he was in high school 704 00:40:10,650 --> 00:40:13,130 S3: and he was reading the manuscript. And I remember him saying, 705 00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:16,569 S3: I hope this Carpathia guy is not the Antichrist because 706 00:40:16,570 --> 00:40:19,530 S3: I really like him. And I thought, well, that's success 707 00:40:19,530 --> 00:40:23,529 S3: because that's the way it's supposed to be. Uh, with Lucifer, 708 00:40:23,890 --> 00:40:27,210 S3: it's really hard to write Lucifer as a positive character 709 00:40:27,210 --> 00:40:30,090 S3: even before the fall, because everybody knows just from the name, 710 00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:33,649 S3: this is this is the bad guy. Um, but we 711 00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:37,690 S3: talk about how he was the most attractive. He was the, 712 00:40:37,730 --> 00:40:40,130 S3: you know, he was the top cherubim and he was the, 713 00:40:40,450 --> 00:40:43,170 S3: the worship leader basically. Um. 714 00:40:43,770 --> 00:40:46,850 S1: So which parallels can I say, which parallels the Judas 715 00:40:46,850 --> 00:40:48,730 S1: thing too. Because he's the one who kept the money. 716 00:40:48,770 --> 00:40:51,850 S1: You know, everybody trusted him, right? Right. So there's another 717 00:40:51,850 --> 00:40:53,290 S1: parallel that I see there. 718 00:40:53,330 --> 00:40:56,250 S3: Yeah. And so it was fun to, you know, it's 719 00:40:56,250 --> 00:40:58,569 S3: always fun to write villains, but especially when you get 720 00:40:58,570 --> 00:41:01,050 S3: the ultimate villain in history. Yeah. 721 00:41:01,090 --> 00:41:04,830 S1: And the there is a process too, because Michael and 722 00:41:04,830 --> 00:41:07,390 S1: Gabriel notice. Hey, there's some going on. Did you see 723 00:41:07,390 --> 00:41:10,630 S1: what the look on Lucifer's face when it wasn't written 724 00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:13,110 S1: that way? But, Mark, you show that kind of process 725 00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:16,350 S1: that it wasn't just something that happened. It was something 726 00:41:16,350 --> 00:41:20,350 S1: that happened over over time or choices, a series of 727 00:41:20,350 --> 00:41:21,670 S1: choices that he made. Right? 728 00:41:21,710 --> 00:41:25,270 S2: Yeah. It was subtle. They would they would pitch things 729 00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:28,029 S2: at him like they were accustomed to doing as they 730 00:41:28,030 --> 00:41:31,510 S2: were in awe of who God was and is. And 731 00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:35,910 S2: one day when they pitched that to Lucifer, he gives 732 00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:38,910 S2: a very unique answer. And it is a little, we 733 00:41:38,910 --> 00:41:42,790 S2: would call it a little snarky, a little. There was 734 00:41:42,830 --> 00:41:45,150 S2: a pause in what he says, and then when he 735 00:41:45,150 --> 00:41:48,109 S2: walks out of the room, you have Michael and Gabriel going, 736 00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:50,750 S2: what in the world was that? We've never seen that before. 737 00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:54,390 S2: Why is he not rejoicing at who God is and 738 00:41:54,390 --> 00:41:59,270 S2: marveling at his power and grace and abilities? And that's 739 00:41:59,270 --> 00:42:02,070 S2: kind of what leads you down the path of going, okay, 740 00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:03,110 S2: something's up here. 741 00:42:03,489 --> 00:42:05,250 S3: You know, there was a there was a guy on, 742 00:42:05,250 --> 00:42:07,930 S3: on campus when I was a student here at Moody 743 00:42:07,930 --> 00:42:11,609 S3: in the 60s. See, Sumner Wemp, he was in charge 744 00:42:11,610 --> 00:42:14,370 S3: of the practical Christian work assignments and stuff, and he 745 00:42:14,370 --> 00:42:18,010 S3: would always. His. His common phrase was, Isn't God good? 746 00:42:18,489 --> 00:42:21,050 S3: And I always thought, well, that's just sort of a 747 00:42:21,290 --> 00:42:24,730 S3: friendly thing to say. But I realized, and he and 748 00:42:24,730 --> 00:42:28,009 S3: I talked about it later to him it was a probe. 749 00:42:28,210 --> 00:42:30,170 S3: How do you respond to that? When I say, isn't 750 00:42:30,170 --> 00:42:34,489 S3: God good? If somebody says, Amen, yes, yes he is. 751 00:42:34,489 --> 00:42:36,490 S3: And here's how he's blessing me. Or if they go, 752 00:42:37,370 --> 00:42:40,530 S3: you know, yeah, God's good. Then he knows something's up 753 00:42:40,530 --> 00:42:42,210 S3: and he wants to find out what it is. And 754 00:42:42,210 --> 00:42:44,410 S3: that's basically what they were doing with Lucifer. They were 755 00:42:44,410 --> 00:42:47,170 S3: basically saying, not in these words, but isn't God good? 756 00:42:47,170 --> 00:42:51,010 S3: And he's like, is he? Yeah, I guess yeah. 757 00:42:51,650 --> 00:42:55,690 S1: Uh, Michael says, because he is a spiritual being. I 758 00:42:55,690 --> 00:42:59,370 S1: never actually see God when we converse in his vast, 759 00:42:59,370 --> 00:43:04,270 S1: immeasurable throne room, his very presence seems to expand upward 760 00:43:04,270 --> 00:43:08,430 S1: beyond the boundaries of the structure. A cathedral of crystalline 761 00:43:08,430 --> 00:43:13,029 S1: light stretching from beneath the throne, smooth and luminous, reflecting 762 00:43:13,070 --> 00:43:17,270 S1: flashes of lightning, followed by rolling waves of thunder. So 763 00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:20,189 S1: you're trying to take us into the throne room? My 764 00:43:20,190 --> 00:43:24,830 S1: question mark is, does the Trinity show up in this novel? 765 00:43:25,070 --> 00:43:28,549 S2: Yes. And it does that in very unique ways. We 766 00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:34,150 S2: didn't want to be, uh, forthright, uh, as in, um, 767 00:43:34,190 --> 00:43:36,910 S2: here's Jesus, here is the Holy Spirit. Do you know 768 00:43:36,910 --> 00:43:38,990 S2: what I'm saying? We wanted to honor. Yeah, we wanted 769 00:43:38,989 --> 00:43:43,310 S2: to honor the progression of the text, the Bible, and, um, 770 00:43:43,310 --> 00:43:47,910 S2: but we want to certainly, uh, acknowledge. So God is 771 00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:53,230 S2: presented in light and triune colors. There are moments where 772 00:43:53,230 --> 00:43:59,430 S2: there is a manifestation that in many ways, uh, is 773 00:43:59,430 --> 00:44:03,890 S2: projected from the light. So there are these hints that again, 774 00:44:03,890 --> 00:44:07,169 S2: if there are other books to follow, that we will 775 00:44:07,210 --> 00:44:11,490 S2: be able to take that that true theological teaching and 776 00:44:11,489 --> 00:44:15,410 S2: see it, uh, birthed throughout the, the text as it 777 00:44:15,410 --> 00:44:16,569 S2: happens in the Bible too. 778 00:44:16,650 --> 00:44:19,370 S3: And that passage that you just read, that's, that's so 779 00:44:19,370 --> 00:44:21,570 S3: good that we're both trying to take credit for that. 780 00:44:21,610 --> 00:44:21,930 S1: Yeah. 781 00:44:23,330 --> 00:44:26,410 S6: Okay. So here's another thing that I try to he 782 00:44:26,410 --> 00:44:27,370 S6: has to train. 783 00:44:27,370 --> 00:44:29,730 S1: Lucifer has to train his troops. You know, he has 784 00:44:29,730 --> 00:44:32,330 S1: to go and say, follow me. Follow me. How does 785 00:44:32,330 --> 00:44:38,330 S1: he train troops in clandestinely when God sees everything he 786 00:44:38,330 --> 00:44:41,969 S1: can be, he's everywhere. How does he do that, Jerry? 787 00:44:42,969 --> 00:44:49,969 S3: Take it. Mark. Yeah, that's that's it was a tricky 788 00:44:50,010 --> 00:44:53,290 S3: thing to write. Um, and, you know, we'd like to 789 00:44:53,290 --> 00:44:56,330 S3: think that deep down, Lucifer knows that God knows everything 790 00:44:56,330 --> 00:44:58,570 S3: and is watching everything. But he's trying to take over. 791 00:44:58,570 --> 00:45:02,299 S3: He wants to to compete for the throne. And so 792 00:45:02,300 --> 00:45:05,739 S3: he thinks he's going around saying, you know, isn't God 793 00:45:05,780 --> 00:45:09,580 S3: a needy person to to insist on this praise and worship? 794 00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:12,700 S3: And aren't we worthy of some of that? And basically 795 00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:15,420 S3: he's saying, aren't I worthy of that? Yeah. 796 00:45:15,980 --> 00:45:16,380 S1: Um. 797 00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:16,980 S6: Okay. 798 00:45:17,020 --> 00:45:20,580 S1: So and in this version, in the battle for Heaven 799 00:45:20,580 --> 00:45:25,980 S1: and earth, Mark and Jerry explicitly tell you how long 800 00:45:25,980 --> 00:45:27,820 S1: creation took. Right? Mark. 801 00:45:29,180 --> 00:45:30,380 S2: Wrong. Chris. 802 00:45:30,420 --> 00:45:30,820 S1: Yeah. 803 00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:33,660 S2: That's right. We know that he is the creator. And 804 00:45:33,660 --> 00:45:36,100 S2: so we don't get into the that kind of debate. 805 00:45:36,100 --> 00:45:38,740 S2: But what we wanted to emphasize, which I think comes 806 00:45:38,739 --> 00:45:41,420 S2: out in the biblical text, is that God is the 807 00:45:41,420 --> 00:45:45,259 S2: creator God. Creation is a miracle, and we need to 808 00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:48,060 S2: revel at who he is and what he's done. And 809 00:45:48,060 --> 00:45:49,580 S2: that's what we tried to emphasize. 810 00:45:49,940 --> 00:45:55,060 S1: And then the the lengths to which he went to 811 00:45:55,260 --> 00:45:59,040 S1: make this right, you know, to, to bring us back 812 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,839 S1: into relationship with him. You know, that's the rest of 813 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:02,520 S1: the story. 814 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:07,480 S2: You know that Genesis 315 and Genesis 321 are critical 815 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,000 S2: passages that we get to cover in the novel. 816 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,040 S1: Congratulations, Jerry. Mark, you've written a lot of books. There's 817 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,920 S1: so many books, hundreds of books together. Uh, but this one, 818 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,399 S1: this one looks like there's going to be something. There's 819 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,400 S1: going to be conversation just like we've had here today 820 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,359 S1: that are going to follow from this. So thanks for 821 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,000 S1: being faithful to that. Come back and see us real soon. Okay. 822 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:28,640 S3: Thanks, Chris. 823 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:29,280 S2: Thanks, man. 824 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,959 S1: The battle for Heaven and Earth by doctor Mark Yarbro 825 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,560 S1: Jerry Jenkins. It's our featured resource. You can see links 826 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,040 S1: to the teaching videos, the soundtrack that's going to come out, 827 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,160 S1: the Bible studies and more. We have links for you 828 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:48,000 S1: right there@cris.org. Our program is a production of Moody Radio, 829 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,640 S1: a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.