1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,559 S1: Today on Chris Fabry Live. On this July 3rd, we 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,640 S1: celebrate and give thanks for those who had a vision 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:16,000 S1: for freedom that we still enjoy today for 250 years. 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,640 S1: This experiment we know as the United States of America, 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,440 S1: has thrived from sea to shining sea. And today, at 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,280 S1: the radio Backyard fence on the eve of this historic celebration, 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,000 S1: we're going to talk about Christian patriotism. Is it okay 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,960 S1: to be a follower of Jesus and a patriot of 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,200 S1: the US? Some say no because of some of our 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,240 S1: past mistakes. Our guest today says it's not only okay 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,479 S1: to be a patriot. He believes in biblical patriotism and 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:50,080 S1: will make his theological case today on Chris Fabry Live. 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,880 S1: Dan Darling is standing by on this recorded broadcast. Don't 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,240 S1: call us today, but stay and consider the points Dan 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,680 S1: is about to make. Let's begin first with a thank 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,560 S1: you to Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. Trish is 17 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,000 S1: our producer. Lisa's helping out. And since it's Friday. That's 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,120 S1: right friend, it's time for the fabulous fabric Friday. Sigh 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,559 S1: here's what it does. One we oxygenate your blood. Two 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,800 S1: we get your endorphins going. Three we raise your serotonin. 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,199 S1: Level four we promote lymphatic drainage and. Five we stimulate 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,200 S1: your parasympathetic system. That's why we call it the five 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,800 S1: love languages. We also stimulate your vagus nerve. We help 24 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,720 S1: you release acetylcholine. And don't you dare forget what it 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,399 S1: does to cortisol dissipation. Take in four seconds of air 26 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,479 S1: through your nose, hold it for seconds, and as you 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,839 S1: release that air through your mouth, push on the left 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,720 S1: side of your rib cage to get rid of all 29 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,040 S1: that bad carbon dioxide. Give a sigh today for the 30 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,800 S1: General George Washington. Give a Jeffersonian sigh, a John Adams sigh. 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,919 S1: Give a sigh for the Declaration of Independence. We hold 32 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,120 S1: these truths to be self-evident. That all men are created equal. 33 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,490 S1: That they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, 34 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:04,490 S1: that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 35 00:02:04,730 --> 00:02:08,490 S1: Give a sigh for old glory, for the Star Spangled Banner. 36 00:02:08,810 --> 00:02:11,370 S1: And a sigh for Rick Monday, who 50 years ago 37 00:02:11,370 --> 00:02:14,010 S1: at Dodger Stadium, ran from center field to grab a 38 00:02:14,010 --> 00:02:17,649 S1: flag about to be lit on fire by two protesters. 39 00:02:17,930 --> 00:02:21,650 S1: Today's fabulous favorite Friday sighs brought to you by freedom 40 00:02:21,889 --> 00:02:26,130 S1: and those who preserved it for you and me. Before 41 00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:29,170 S1: we get to Dan Darling, I want to encourage you 42 00:02:29,169 --> 00:02:32,570 S1: to support us today. If you go to Chris Fabry live.org. 43 00:02:32,970 --> 00:02:36,889 S1: You will have the unprecedented opportunity to give a gift 44 00:02:36,889 --> 00:02:41,130 S1: and receive a newly published book celebrating 100 years of 45 00:02:41,169 --> 00:02:44,609 S1: Moody Radio. That's right. I wasn't around at the time, 46 00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:49,850 S1: but we began broadcasting in 1926 and we're still around today. 47 00:02:49,889 --> 00:02:54,130 S1: It's titled This is Moody Radio 100 Years of Proclaiming 48 00:02:54,130 --> 00:02:57,010 S1: the Gospel. You must have a copy. It's full of 49 00:02:57,130 --> 00:03:00,170 S1: pictures from history all the way to the present day. 50 00:03:00,650 --> 00:03:04,330 S1: Go to Chris Fabry live.org. Give a gift. This is 51 00:03:04,370 --> 00:03:07,889 S1: kind of a coffee table history book, so it's expensive 52 00:03:07,889 --> 00:03:09,730 S1: and it's going to cost us a bit extra to 53 00:03:09,770 --> 00:03:13,210 S1: ship it. But believe me, it is worth it. So 54 00:03:13,250 --> 00:03:16,130 S1: be as generous as you can this month. Thank you 55 00:03:16,130 --> 00:03:18,730 S1: for your support. We would love to send you this. 56 00:03:19,090 --> 00:03:22,169 S1: Go to Chris Fabry live.org and you can give a 57 00:03:22,210 --> 00:03:28,769 S1: gift right there. Chris Fabry live dot ORG. Dan Darling 58 00:03:28,770 --> 00:03:32,450 S1: is the director of the Land Center for Cultural Engagement 59 00:03:32,450 --> 00:03:36,610 S1: at Southwestern Seminary, a columnist for world magazine and a 60 00:03:36,610 --> 00:03:40,810 S1: widely published author. His work has appeared in USA today, 61 00:03:40,810 --> 00:03:45,089 S1: The Spectator, The Gospel Coalition, National Review. He lives and 62 00:03:45,090 --> 00:03:48,930 S1: moves and breathes at the intersection of faith and public life. 63 00:03:49,250 --> 00:03:53,730 S1: Our featured resource for today's conversation is in defense of 64 00:03:53,730 --> 00:03:59,290 S1: Christian patriotism. We haven't linked to. Chris Fabry live.org. Dan, 65 00:03:59,330 --> 00:04:01,810 S1: you were with us on Memorial Day. So welcome back 66 00:04:01,810 --> 00:04:04,050 S1: to this day before the two 50th. 67 00:04:04,650 --> 00:04:07,050 S2: Well, Chris, thank you for having me. An honor to 68 00:04:07,050 --> 00:04:10,490 S2: be here with you and honored to talk about the 69 00:04:10,490 --> 00:04:13,170 S2: 250th anniversary of this this great country. 70 00:04:13,770 --> 00:04:16,650 S1: Talk about July 4th when you see that on the calendar. 71 00:04:16,650 --> 00:04:19,450 S1: And and it's not July 4th. That's not the holiday. 72 00:04:19,450 --> 00:04:21,970 S1: It's Independence Day. What do you think of when you 73 00:04:21,970 --> 00:04:22,570 S1: see that? 74 00:04:23,010 --> 00:04:26,170 S2: Well, I think it's an opportunity just to celebrate the 75 00:04:26,170 --> 00:04:29,010 S2: freedoms that we enjoy. Often those of us who've been 76 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:31,610 S2: born here and have our families going back, we we 77 00:04:31,650 --> 00:04:34,050 S2: forget how good we have it because we only see 78 00:04:34,050 --> 00:04:36,450 S2: the problems. But when you sort of zoom out and 79 00:04:36,450 --> 00:04:39,570 S2: think about how other people around the world live under 80 00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:43,010 S2: many under tyranny or think about human history, we think 81 00:04:43,010 --> 00:04:45,170 S2: what a great country we have. So I the older 82 00:04:45,170 --> 00:04:46,810 S2: I get, I get more filled with pride. I want 83 00:04:46,850 --> 00:04:49,730 S2: to crank up that, uh, you know, those patriotic songs 84 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:52,930 S2: on the radio and, uh, fly that flag. And I 85 00:04:52,930 --> 00:04:56,290 S2: actually make my family every year. Buy a flag cake. 86 00:04:56,330 --> 00:04:58,650 S2: That's sort of our one of our traditions. Yeah. So 87 00:04:58,690 --> 00:05:01,450 S2: wherever we are, we've been on vacation sometimes and I'm like, 88 00:05:01,450 --> 00:05:02,810 S2: we got to go get a flag cake. We gotta 89 00:05:02,810 --> 00:05:04,290 S2: find one. We got to make this happen. 90 00:05:04,290 --> 00:05:06,970 S1: So with the blueberries on it and that kind of thing. 91 00:05:07,010 --> 00:05:09,810 S1: That's right. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you got 92 00:05:09,810 --> 00:05:11,450 S1: I want you to take me back to when you 93 00:05:11,450 --> 00:05:14,170 S1: were a kid because your mom and dad, without the 94 00:05:14,170 --> 00:05:17,050 S1: use of the internet, had this trip that you took 95 00:05:17,050 --> 00:05:19,330 S1: to Washington, D.C.. Tell me about that. 96 00:05:19,330 --> 00:05:21,970 S2: Yeah. So I was about 10 or 11 years old 97 00:05:22,210 --> 00:05:25,290 S2: and my, my mom planned this trip. We lived in 98 00:05:25,330 --> 00:05:29,050 S2: the Chicago suburbs, and she planned this trip somehow without 99 00:05:29,050 --> 00:05:31,690 S2: the use of the internet. We packed up our station wagon. 100 00:05:31,690 --> 00:05:34,650 S2: We had a Chevy station wagon, and we drove across 101 00:05:34,650 --> 00:05:37,529 S2: the country and we went to Washington, D.C.. I was 102 00:05:37,529 --> 00:05:39,930 S2: already a little bit interested in news and history and 103 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:41,890 S2: things like that, but man, that trip just opened up 104 00:05:41,890 --> 00:05:44,570 S2: my eyes. I remember, you know, we we went to 105 00:05:44,610 --> 00:05:46,770 S2: the Capitol, we went to the we actually could go 106 00:05:46,770 --> 00:05:48,570 S2: to the white House in those days and have a 107 00:05:48,570 --> 00:05:50,730 S2: little tour. If you get in line, wait for a while. 108 00:05:51,130 --> 00:05:53,820 S2: We went to all these places, the Smithsonian. But I 109 00:05:53,820 --> 00:05:57,979 S2: remember standing at the base of the Lincoln Memorial. And, 110 00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:00,339 S2: you know, even as a young kid getting very emotional 111 00:06:00,339 --> 00:06:02,620 S2: and just thinking about the the weight that was on 112 00:06:02,620 --> 00:06:06,700 S2: Lincoln's shoulders and thinking about the country. And it had 113 00:06:06,740 --> 00:06:10,100 S2: a really formative effect on me of really loving the 114 00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:13,620 S2: country and, and thinking about her and her history. 115 00:06:14,180 --> 00:06:16,980 S1: And that kind of propelled you into doing what you 116 00:06:16,980 --> 00:06:19,420 S1: do with the ministry that you have done, as well 117 00:06:19,420 --> 00:06:23,580 S1: as the public policy, informational, you know, in the writing 118 00:06:23,580 --> 00:06:26,380 S1: even of this book that you've done. It kind of 119 00:06:26,420 --> 00:06:27,540 S1: propelled you, didn't it? 120 00:06:27,940 --> 00:06:31,419 S2: It really did. It really fueled that to think, um, 121 00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:33,660 S2: I have a, we have a really good and I 122 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:36,859 S2: want to just help Christians think through what does it 123 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:39,220 S2: look like to live as a faithful, as a Christian 124 00:06:39,220 --> 00:06:42,460 S2: in America, to live as a citizen, to be engaged 125 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:46,420 S2: in part of making our country better and improving it 126 00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:49,700 S2: in certain ways. It really sparked that influence in me. 127 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:52,820 S2: You know, I've always had like a foot in the church. 128 00:06:52,820 --> 00:06:55,980 S2: I've always loved the church. I've always felt called to ministry. 129 00:06:55,980 --> 00:06:58,900 S2: I love still today, love going to church on Sundays. 130 00:06:59,460 --> 00:07:01,659 S2: And yet I've always had a foot sort of in 131 00:07:01,700 --> 00:07:04,500 S2: the culture and history and politics and reading about about history. 132 00:07:04,500 --> 00:07:06,460 S2: And I think both of those things have kind of 133 00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:07,500 S2: come together for me. 134 00:07:07,740 --> 00:07:12,060 S1: Yeah. And, and to celebrate this, then one of the 135 00:07:12,060 --> 00:07:14,340 S1: main things that you want to do, and you've written 136 00:07:14,340 --> 00:07:18,740 S1: about in the book is just to show gratitude for 137 00:07:18,820 --> 00:07:21,820 S1: what is what we have, what has been handed down, 138 00:07:21,820 --> 00:07:26,660 S1: the legacy that we have in our hands right now. Right. 139 00:07:26,940 --> 00:07:28,700 S2: It really is. I think at the end of the day, 140 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:31,020 S2: it is gratitude. It's saying every, you know, every good 141 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:33,980 S2: and perfect gift comes from above. We should be thankful 142 00:07:33,980 --> 00:07:35,700 S2: for what we have. It doesn't mean we don't want 143 00:07:35,700 --> 00:07:38,020 S2: to improve areas where there are problems in the country, 144 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:41,020 S2: but really thankful to live here. You think of all 145 00:07:41,020 --> 00:07:43,740 S2: the millions of people who would love to live as Americans. 146 00:07:43,780 --> 00:07:46,980 S2: God and his sovereignty has allowed us to live here. Um, 147 00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:51,060 S2: and so part of that gratitude is thanking God and 148 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:54,220 S2: understanding our history, but also rolling up our sleeves and 149 00:07:54,220 --> 00:07:57,980 S2: trying to improve the country. I think of the children 150 00:07:57,980 --> 00:08:01,300 S2: of Israel. God always told them to remember. Remember what 151 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:05,100 S2: came before. Remember the blessings from previous generations. Teach them 152 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:07,860 S2: your children and grandchildren. I think it's important for us 153 00:08:07,860 --> 00:08:11,180 S2: to do that with our generation and to say, this 154 00:08:11,180 --> 00:08:13,780 S2: is who we are. This is the place God has 155 00:08:13,780 --> 00:08:17,660 S2: put us. Here's the stories, here's the ideals, and pass 156 00:08:17,660 --> 00:08:18,220 S2: them down. 157 00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:22,540 S1: That's Dan Darling we're talking about in defense of Christian 158 00:08:22,540 --> 00:08:27,620 S1: patriotism today, on this day before July 4th, Independence Day. 159 00:08:28,020 --> 00:08:30,940 S1: You go to Chris fabry.org. You'll see that book linked 160 00:08:30,940 --> 00:08:36,900 S1: right there. Chris fabry.org. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. 161 00:08:44,740 --> 00:08:47,620 S1: Dan Darling is our guest today at the Radio Backyard Fence. 162 00:08:47,620 --> 00:08:51,900 S1: He has written a book called In Defence of Christian patriotism. 163 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:55,660 S1: It came out last September, and I wanted to have 164 00:08:55,660 --> 00:08:59,740 S1: him on the program today to talk more about what 165 00:08:59,740 --> 00:09:03,140 S1: he discussed in that book. Uh, don't call us. Our 166 00:09:03,140 --> 00:09:07,339 S1: program is recorded. If you go to Chris fabry.org, you'll 167 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:11,060 S1: see in Defense of Christian Patriotism sedan, the book came 168 00:09:11,059 --> 00:09:13,140 S1: out a few months ago. You've had enough time to 169 00:09:13,140 --> 00:09:15,380 S1: get some feedback. Tell me what you've been hearing. 170 00:09:15,940 --> 00:09:19,900 S2: Yeah, I've had feedback from across the spectrum. I've had, uh, 171 00:09:19,900 --> 00:09:23,179 S2: folks who are naturally patriotic and love their country, uh, 172 00:09:23,179 --> 00:09:26,420 S2: strong believers, Christians who've said, you know, this was really 173 00:09:26,420 --> 00:09:29,540 S2: helpful because I've, you know, sometimes you, you get a 174 00:09:29,540 --> 00:09:33,140 S2: little opposition for being so patriotic. Uh, I've heard from 175 00:09:33,140 --> 00:09:35,900 S2: others who have said, you know, I've always wondered how to, 176 00:09:35,940 --> 00:09:38,179 S2: how to do this. Can we love God and love 177 00:09:38,179 --> 00:09:40,540 S2: our country at the same time? Are they always in opposition? 178 00:09:40,540 --> 00:09:42,219 S2: And you've kind of helped me think through this, and 179 00:09:42,220 --> 00:09:44,300 S2: I've gotten some feedback from folks who've said, man, this 180 00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:47,700 S2: sounds a little dangerous, a little idolatrous, I don't know, 181 00:09:48,190 --> 00:09:50,270 S2: it seems like we're mixing two things that shouldn't be 182 00:09:50,270 --> 00:09:52,590 S2: mixed together. So it's been a good conversation. 183 00:09:53,150 --> 00:09:56,030 S1: And I recalled as I was reading through it, I 184 00:09:56,070 --> 00:10:00,190 S1: recalled conversations through the years that I've had with people 185 00:10:00,190 --> 00:10:04,870 S1: who talked about, um, what true Christianity is and what 186 00:10:04,910 --> 00:10:09,750 S1: civil religion is. And now you mix in with this, 187 00:10:09,790 --> 00:10:12,870 S1: you know, Christian nationalism. And if you say anything good 188 00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:15,550 S1: about the country, you're, you're a nationalist. It's like, I 189 00:10:15,550 --> 00:10:17,910 S1: don't want to do that. So what you're trying to, 190 00:10:17,950 --> 00:10:20,510 S1: as I read it, what you're trying to do is 191 00:10:20,510 --> 00:10:25,390 S1: give us the freedom. Isn't that interesting? The freedom to 192 00:10:25,429 --> 00:10:29,110 S1: love our country well and serve God well. Is that 193 00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:30,150 S1: kind of your hope? 194 00:10:30,590 --> 00:10:33,430 S2: That is, I think often people think you can't love 195 00:10:33,429 --> 00:10:36,470 S2: God and love your country at the same time. And 196 00:10:36,470 --> 00:10:39,630 S2: there are times where those two conflict, right? Uh, Peter 197 00:10:39,630 --> 00:10:42,750 S2: and acts when they said, you can't preach the gospel. 198 00:10:42,750 --> 00:10:44,830 S2: And he said, I obey God rather than man. But 199 00:10:44,830 --> 00:10:47,110 S2: for the most part, it's not about one or the other, 200 00:10:47,110 --> 00:10:49,990 S2: but it's. To borrow from C.S. Lewis great book, The 201 00:10:49,990 --> 00:10:54,550 S2: Four Loves, where it's about ordering our affection. So of course, 202 00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:57,830 S2: love for God is supreme, and it really influences every 203 00:10:57,830 --> 00:11:01,030 S2: other commitment that we have. But we have lesser commitments 204 00:11:01,030 --> 00:11:02,870 S2: that we keep to. And one of the examples I 205 00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:06,390 S2: use in the book is, uh, 23 years ago, I 206 00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:10,230 S2: stood at the altar and essentially I pledged allegiance to Angela. 207 00:11:10,270 --> 00:11:14,990 S2: My wife and the pastor didn't. The pastor did not say, well, Dan, 208 00:11:14,990 --> 00:11:16,950 S2: you have to choose between love for God and love 209 00:11:16,950 --> 00:11:20,230 S2: for Angela. No, he said, if you love God, well 210 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:23,110 S2: then you'll be able to love your wife in in 211 00:11:23,150 --> 00:11:25,030 S2: the best way. And when you get those out of order, 212 00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:28,030 S2: that could be problematic. And we know how to do this, Chris. 213 00:11:28,070 --> 00:11:31,230 S2: In other areas, right? With our children, we love God. 214 00:11:31,270 --> 00:11:34,590 S2: It makes us love our children in the best possible way. 215 00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:37,550 S2: Or even if you go even further down the list, 216 00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:40,390 S2: you know, we I essentially have to pledge allegiance to 217 00:11:40,429 --> 00:11:44,270 S2: the cell phone company, the electric company, every month. Um, by, 218 00:11:44,270 --> 00:11:48,270 S2: by paying them, unfortunately. Uh, but, you know, if your 219 00:11:48,270 --> 00:11:50,550 S2: love for God is higher, you can have those lesser 220 00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:52,150 S2: commitments and have them in order. 221 00:11:53,070 --> 00:11:57,110 S1: I totally agree, and that's a really good analogy right there. 222 00:11:57,110 --> 00:12:00,590 S1: Because what you what you're doing is you're ordering your love. 223 00:12:00,590 --> 00:12:02,630 S1: You're not saying that you don't love God and you 224 00:12:02,630 --> 00:12:06,350 S1: don't want to follow Jesus. You're saying that because he 225 00:12:06,350 --> 00:12:12,150 S1: has loved us, well, then we can love others around us. 226 00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:17,390 S1: So your definition of patriotism is probably different than what 227 00:12:17,429 --> 00:12:20,710 S1: others think about it. Define patriotism. 228 00:12:21,230 --> 00:12:25,110 S2: Yeah. I think patriotism in many ways is gratitude for 229 00:12:25,270 --> 00:12:28,230 S2: the place and the people and the culture where God 230 00:12:28,230 --> 00:12:31,750 S2: has sovereignly put us. It's it's a love for our, our, 231 00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:35,870 S2: our history or for, um, you know, I think in America, 232 00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:38,070 S2: it takes on a special meaning, a love for our 233 00:12:38,070 --> 00:12:41,590 S2: ideals that all men are created equal. Um, and when 234 00:12:41,590 --> 00:12:44,350 S2: you think about it in terms of being a Christian, uh, 235 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,320 S2: Being a Christian and being a citizen first of the 236 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,360 S2: kingdom of God actually allows us to love our country 237 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,240 S2: well in a way that is realistic, in a way 238 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,760 S2: that understands we have flaws in a way that understands, 239 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,880 S2: you know, it's not eternal and permanent, but allows us 240 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,400 S2: to love the unique place where we've been sent and 241 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,920 S2: allows us really to do some good in a fallen 242 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,520 S2: world and hold it loosely, more loosely than, say, if 243 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,920 S2: like Jonah, you know, I have an example of Jonah 244 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,480 S2: in the book. I think Jonah is someone who let 245 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,720 S2: his patriotism, his love for country, supersede his love for 246 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,120 S2: God and God's mission. And that became disordered. Uh, but 247 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,520 S2: it doesn't always have to be that way. 248 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,720 S1: Yes. No, I love the Jonah. And then the. And Hosea. 249 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,880 S1: Hosea is another prophet who was a little bit different. Uh, 250 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,120 S1: and that shows you how deep the book is in 251 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,920 S1: defense of Christian patriotism. We have it linked at Chris 252 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,720 S1: favorite archive.org. Dan Darling is with us today at the 253 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,840 S1: Radio backyard fence. Um, so those who push back who say, 254 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,760 S1: and I saw one review or one person responding to you. 255 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,680 S1: Here's a, here's a fascist, here's another fascist. What are 256 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,040 S1: the people on the other side when they look at 257 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:02,959 S1: Christian patriotism? What are they saying against what? They're probably 258 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,839 S1: not saying against what you've written because they probably haven't 259 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,240 S1: read it. But what what are they saying? Uh, raising 260 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:11,439 S1: the caution flag. 261 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:17,240 S2: Well, I think there is a real a concern in 262 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,480 S2: the country that any time you have, you know, politics 263 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,480 S2: or Christianity and, you know, sort of patriotism or love 264 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,800 S2: of country mix, that it's dangerous. And I think people have, 265 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,760 S2: in their view, you know, the abuse of power throughout history, 266 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,359 S2: when the church and the state were too closely aligned. 267 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,440 S2: One of the things I try to argue is that 268 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:43,920 S2: Christianity is not a detriment to democracy. that it's a preservative. 269 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,160 S2: And even the founders understood this. You know, the founders 270 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,320 S2: did not want a state church. They did not want 271 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,240 S2: the government telling you how you can and can't believe. 272 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,040 S2: But they also understood that for liberty, this experiment in 273 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,680 S2: ordered government to work, you have to have a layer 274 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,840 S2: of virtue and religion, and I would argue Christianity. I mean, 275 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,200 S2: even Thomas Jefferson, who might be the most secular of 276 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,480 S2: our founders, understood this. And and John Adams famously said 277 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,600 S2: that this idea will only work for a moral and 278 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,440 S2: religious people. And so I don't think those two things 279 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,080 S2: have to be in opposition. There's a long history in 280 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,600 S2: the country of this. I think in the last 50 years, 281 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,040 S2: there's been this sort of secularism that wants to sort 282 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,360 S2: of push Christianity completely out of the public square. But 283 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,880 S2: what we've seen is when you do that, what replaces 284 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,800 S2: it is something else, right? Everybody brings their values to 285 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,160 S2: the public square. Everybody brings their values when they start 286 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,240 S2: thinking about policy and ideas. And so Christians should not 287 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,480 S2: be different than that. They should bring those to the 288 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,720 S2: to the forefront. And I think that strengthens the country. 289 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,680 S2: I think Christianity can be a preservative of freedom, not 290 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,480 S2: not in opposition to it. 291 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,760 S1: Everybody has a worldview. And so but but a lot 292 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,680 S1: of times the the folks on the left and I, 293 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,640 S1: I want to be charitable and kind here, but a 294 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,240 S1: lot of times folks on the left don't see their 295 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,840 S1: worldview as a worldview. It's like they take it for granted. And, 296 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,560 S1: and you have a chapter in, in the book, since 297 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,360 S1: when is faith in politics scary? And you deal with 298 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,520 S1: a lot of what the media has done. In fact, 299 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,440 S1: Jimmy Carter was a good example of this in the 300 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,480 S1: press back in the 70s, right? 301 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,280 S2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when Jimmy Carter ran 302 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,600 S2: for president in 76 as an evangelical, people sort of 303 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,360 S2: didn't know what to make of him. And it's sort 304 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,360 S2: of been that way since that every time, particularly conservative 305 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,810 S2: Christian is in politics, there's this sort of public concern 306 00:16:40,810 --> 00:16:43,890 S2: or freak out by members of the media or academics. 307 00:16:44,010 --> 00:16:46,370 S2: I remember when George W Bush was running for president, 308 00:16:46,370 --> 00:16:48,850 S2: and he said that his favorite philosopher was Jesus Christ. 309 00:16:48,890 --> 00:16:50,930 S2: There was all these articles saying, he's going to usher 310 00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:53,770 S2: in this new theocracy. He's like the Taliban, you know, 311 00:16:53,770 --> 00:16:56,410 S2: all this kind of stuff. Or when speaker of the 312 00:16:56,410 --> 00:16:58,690 S2: House Mike Johnson gets up there and says, you know, 313 00:16:58,730 --> 00:17:00,970 S2: it's by God's providence that I'm here, which is a 314 00:17:00,970 --> 00:17:04,170 S2: standard thing that a Christian would say about almost any position. 315 00:17:04,490 --> 00:17:07,290 S2: You know, the media went crazy. Oh, he's a Christian nationalist, 316 00:17:07,290 --> 00:17:09,010 S2: all that kind of thing. And I just want to 317 00:17:09,010 --> 00:17:12,650 S2: dispel that idea. Are there Christians who use politics poorly? 318 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:16,609 S2: Are there politicians who quote Scripture wrongly? Absolutely. But that's 319 00:17:16,609 --> 00:17:19,010 S2: sort of been with us from the beginning. I mean, 320 00:17:19,010 --> 00:17:22,770 S2: if you go through American history, our presidents all quoted scripture, 321 00:17:22,770 --> 00:17:26,369 S2: in fact, FDR quoted Scripture maybe more than any other president. 322 00:17:26,410 --> 00:17:28,850 S2: They all understood there's a kind of Christian character to 323 00:17:28,890 --> 00:17:34,090 S2: the country. G.K. Chesterton, the famous British writer, said that 324 00:17:34,570 --> 00:17:37,290 S2: America has the soul of a church. And so I 325 00:17:37,290 --> 00:17:40,210 S2: think that's healthy. We are opposed to and I am 326 00:17:40,210 --> 00:17:41,650 S2: opposed to and I talk about this in the book. 327 00:17:42,010 --> 00:17:44,570 S2: We don't want to get rid of the Constitution and 328 00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:47,609 S2: have this sort of state church where we're making everybody 329 00:17:47,609 --> 00:17:50,890 S2: believe or making everybody go to church. There are some 330 00:17:50,890 --> 00:17:52,810 S2: who want that. A small group of people, I think 331 00:17:52,810 --> 00:17:56,410 S2: we would reject that, but that the solution to that 332 00:17:56,410 --> 00:18:00,369 S2: is not to just push Christianity or religion completely away. 333 00:18:00,410 --> 00:18:03,449 S2: I think the two kind of go together in many ways. 334 00:18:03,890 --> 00:18:05,929 S1: You write as a pastor. I'm not a fan of 335 00:18:05,930 --> 00:18:10,050 S1: politicians in the pulpit. This was after, I think, David 336 00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:14,410 S1: Platt when after he played golf, uh, President Trump came 337 00:18:14,410 --> 00:18:17,890 S1: to Platt's church and Platt had him come up to 338 00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:23,250 S1: the to the stage and prayed for him there publicly. Um, 339 00:18:23,530 --> 00:18:25,730 S1: and there was a lot of pushback about that. And 340 00:18:25,730 --> 00:18:28,410 S1: you say, I'm not a fan of, of having politicians 341 00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:31,570 S1: in the pulpit. When I was a senior pastor, I 342 00:18:31,609 --> 00:18:34,010 S1: never allowed them to speak on a Sunday and I 343 00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:37,649 S1: never endorsed them. This is a policy I advise other 344 00:18:37,650 --> 00:18:39,770 S1: pastors to take. Talk about that. 345 00:18:40,530 --> 00:18:43,610 S2: You know, I think the situation with Platt was was one. 346 00:18:43,609 --> 00:18:45,649 S2: I thought he handled it pretty well. You know, all 347 00:18:45,650 --> 00:18:47,250 S2: of a sudden you get a call that the president's 348 00:18:47,250 --> 00:18:49,290 S2: coming by and you know, how do you do that? 349 00:18:49,290 --> 00:18:51,250 S2: So he he had him up there and he prayed 350 00:18:51,250 --> 00:18:53,490 S2: for him. He prayed a prayer over him and didn't endorse. 351 00:18:53,490 --> 00:18:55,649 S2: He just prayed over him. And there was still a 352 00:18:55,650 --> 00:18:58,650 S2: lot of people freaking out. Oh, man, this is a 353 00:18:58,650 --> 00:19:01,369 S2: church and state issue. You know, on the left, you 354 00:19:01,369 --> 00:19:05,370 S2: see that around election time, you see Democratic politicians preaching 355 00:19:05,369 --> 00:19:09,170 S2: in churches and all these kinds of things. But as 356 00:19:09,170 --> 00:19:13,170 S2: a pastor, I never wanted to endorse anybody. When you're 357 00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:14,810 S2: a pastor and the things you're saying in the pulpit 358 00:19:14,810 --> 00:19:17,410 S2: carry a lot of weight, I always wanted to be careful. 359 00:19:17,410 --> 00:19:21,649 S2: I would speak about issues where where scripture is clear, 360 00:19:21,650 --> 00:19:24,250 S2: and I would encourage folks to steward their citizenship well 361 00:19:24,250 --> 00:19:26,410 S2: and vote the way that they felt the Lord was 362 00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:30,330 S2: leading them. Um, but I never would endorse, uh, people 363 00:19:30,330 --> 00:19:32,690 S2: like that. But it's actually pretty rare. Chris. I mean, 364 00:19:32,690 --> 00:19:36,609 S2: I think the, the media narrative is that every Sunday 365 00:19:36,609 --> 00:19:40,889 S2: and every evangelical church, it's like a Republican Party, you know, uh, 366 00:19:41,090 --> 00:19:43,649 S2: rally and they're giving out Ronald Reagan bobbleheads and all 367 00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:48,130 S2: this stuff. And the truth is, um, most evangelical churches, 368 00:19:48,130 --> 00:19:52,530 S2: you know, this are rarely talk politics. Um, uh, in 369 00:19:52,570 --> 00:19:54,330 S2: the Pope, there's a few outliers, but most of them 370 00:19:54,330 --> 00:19:54,970 S2: rarely do. 371 00:19:56,290 --> 00:19:59,210 S1: Yeah. And I want to go back into the history 372 00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:00,969 S1: of this because that's one of the things that the 373 00:20:00,970 --> 00:20:04,730 S1: book does so well, is it, it sets this foundation 374 00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:08,250 S1: from here's what the and you'll see, you'll hear a 375 00:20:08,250 --> 00:20:10,170 S1: lot about this. You know, we're a Christian nation. We're 376 00:20:10,170 --> 00:20:15,010 S1: a Christian nation. Well, yeah, absolutely. But here's a quote. 377 00:20:15,010 --> 00:20:19,410 S1: The founders, regardless of their theology, could not help being 378 00:20:19,410 --> 00:20:23,130 S1: influenced by Christianity because it was the environment in which 379 00:20:23,130 --> 00:20:26,050 S1: they had grown up. That is why their words were 380 00:20:26,050 --> 00:20:31,450 S1: peppered with references to Scripture and appeals to God's providence. 381 00:20:32,090 --> 00:20:35,899 S2: Yeah, they really were. I mean, if you read the founders, 382 00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:38,900 S2: I mean, even someone like Thomas Jefferson who was not 383 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:41,500 S2: an Orthodox Christian, you know, he famously created his own 384 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:43,620 S2: Bible by cutting out the things he didn't like, but 385 00:20:43,619 --> 00:20:46,580 S2: he was raised in an environment that was shaped by Christianity, 386 00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:49,420 S2: so he couldn't help but be influenced that way. Same 387 00:20:49,420 --> 00:20:52,460 S2: with people like Benjamin Franklin and John Adams and, and 388 00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:55,340 S2: Washington and all these all these men. Some were Christians, 389 00:20:55,340 --> 00:21:00,179 S2: some were not. But the ideas for the country, many 390 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:04,660 S2: of them came from Christianity. This is why our founding documents, 391 00:21:04,660 --> 00:21:08,340 S2: particularly the. The declaration mentions that our rights come from God. 392 00:21:08,340 --> 00:21:12,420 S2: They come from somewhere. And so, uh, it's. Tim Keller 393 00:21:12,420 --> 00:21:14,260 S2: gave a great speech on this a few years ago 394 00:21:14,260 --> 00:21:16,700 S2: to the House of Lords. And he he said that 395 00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:18,780 S2: a lot of the values that people in the West 396 00:21:19,140 --> 00:21:22,659 S2: say that they believe. He said without realizing it, they 397 00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:25,940 S2: don't they don't understand those came from Christianity. Uh, things 398 00:21:25,940 --> 00:21:28,380 S2: like human rights, things like human dignity, all those kinds 399 00:21:28,380 --> 00:21:31,860 S2: of things. And so if you strip Christianity away, I 400 00:21:31,859 --> 00:21:35,379 S2: think you lose that that sense of moral, that moral 401 00:21:35,380 --> 00:21:37,860 S2: sense that that guides people on some of these issues. 402 00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:42,100 S1: Isn't don't you quote Dawkins as saying he considers himself 403 00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:45,100 S1: a cultural Christian, even though he's an atheist? 404 00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:47,780 S2: Yeah, it's really interesting, Chris. A lot of folks who 405 00:21:47,780 --> 00:21:51,619 S2: are atheists or critical of Christianity in the last several 406 00:21:51,619 --> 00:21:54,500 S2: years have started to acknowledge, wait a minute, some of 407 00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:58,540 S2: the things we believe come from Christianity. So Richard Dawkins, yeah, the, 408 00:21:58,540 --> 00:22:02,460 S2: the famous, uh, theist who has attacked Christianity said, if 409 00:22:02,460 --> 00:22:04,260 S2: all things being equal, he'd rather live in a country 410 00:22:04,260 --> 00:22:07,500 S2: shaped by Christianity, calls himself a cultural Christian. Uh, there's 411 00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,820 S2: been others. There was an article in the Atlantic by 412 00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:12,340 S2: a fellow by the name of Derek Thompson, who's, I think, 413 00:22:12,380 --> 00:22:16,300 S2: an atheist or skeptic. And he used to actually be 414 00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:19,500 S2: encouraged by the decline in church attendance, thinking, okay, this 415 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:22,219 S2: is becoming a more pluralistic nation. This is really good. 416 00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:25,660 S2: He's actually reversed himself and said, we lost something when 417 00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:28,459 S2: people stopped going to church. And we need that. And 418 00:22:28,460 --> 00:22:31,859 S2: so I think people are starting to understand that Christianity 419 00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:35,300 S2: has a lot to provide for society in terms of 420 00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:39,220 S2: the Christian worldview. This doesn't mean, Chris, that we're saying 421 00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:43,860 S2: everyone who acknowledges that is a Christian. You still have 422 00:22:43,859 --> 00:22:45,820 S2: to be born again by the Spirit of God just 423 00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:48,100 S2: because you go to church or, you know, because you're 424 00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:51,740 S2: an American, doesn't automatically make you right with God. But 425 00:22:51,740 --> 00:22:56,060 S2: there are benefits when Christianity is widespread in a culture. 426 00:22:56,820 --> 00:23:01,580 S1: Benefits to. When we come to issues like slavery, you. 427 00:23:01,619 --> 00:23:04,020 S1: Right at the center of the conversation was the debate 428 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:08,219 S1: over slavery, as both North and South appealed to Scripture 429 00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:12,460 S1: to make their case. So there you see this tension 430 00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:15,340 S1: that was in the culture for a long time. 431 00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:19,100 S2: Yeah, really. And both sides were arguing from the same book. 432 00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:23,939 S2: And tragically, uh, many defended slavery from scripture, which I 433 00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:27,300 S2: think was a distortion of, of Scripture. And often that's 434 00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:30,100 S2: used against Christianity. And to be honest, it's something that 435 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:33,470 S2: we should, you know, we should lament that that Christians 436 00:23:33,470 --> 00:23:36,910 S2: did defend that. And yet the resources to fight slavery 437 00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:42,230 S2: also came from Christianity. The northern abolitionists spoke from from 438 00:23:42,230 --> 00:23:45,990 S2: Scripture to defend, uh, you know, to defend the rights of, 439 00:23:46,270 --> 00:23:49,750 S2: of slaves. William Wilberforce in England, when he worked to 440 00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:52,350 S2: end the slave trade, did it as a Christian. In fact, 441 00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:55,510 S2: you know, John Newton, the author of amazing Grace, encouraged 442 00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:57,830 S2: him to stay as a member of Parliament to fight 443 00:23:57,830 --> 00:24:01,110 S2: these things. And so I think it just illustrates, even 444 00:24:01,109 --> 00:24:03,109 S2: in the Civil War, illustrates how much the Bible has 445 00:24:03,109 --> 00:24:07,270 S2: shaped the country. Uh, Alexis de Tocqueville, who wrote his 446 00:24:07,270 --> 00:24:10,630 S2: book Democracy in America in the late 1800s, said that 447 00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:13,790 S2: America had both the spirit of liberty and the spirit 448 00:24:13,790 --> 00:24:17,950 S2: of religion, and they sort of ran in parallel, parallel tracks. 449 00:24:17,950 --> 00:24:20,590 S1: Yeah. And you know what? I was really encouraged because 450 00:24:20,590 --> 00:24:24,510 S1: you mentioned D.L. Moody at one point in this section 451 00:24:24,510 --> 00:24:26,710 S1: of it, you were you were talking about D.L. Moody 452 00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:31,669 S1: because Moody was not a quote unquote political figure, but 453 00:24:31,670 --> 00:24:37,430 S1: he was very involved in moral issues of his day. Right. 454 00:24:37,910 --> 00:24:41,590 S2: He really was. And the, um, very much like Billy Graham, 455 00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:46,830 S2: you know, 100 years later, Moody's, um, crusades and revivals 456 00:24:46,830 --> 00:24:50,990 S2: and the, the evangelism people turning to Christ was so 457 00:24:50,990 --> 00:24:54,830 S2: powerful and so widespread, it was having a social impact. Uh, 458 00:24:54,830 --> 00:24:57,270 S2: to the point where Abraham Lincoln famously attended one of 459 00:24:57,270 --> 00:25:01,310 S2: his Sunday schools. Um, and William McKinley, who was running 460 00:25:01,310 --> 00:25:04,870 S2: for president against William Jennings Bryan. So he had two Christians, right? Two. 461 00:25:05,109 --> 00:25:08,630 S2: Two Christians running for for office. And William McKinley recommended 462 00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:12,350 S2: people go to Moody's, uh, meetings. And so I do 463 00:25:12,350 --> 00:25:14,990 S2: think you see just how important those things were to 464 00:25:15,030 --> 00:25:17,750 S2: the American, uh, the American experiment. 465 00:25:17,950 --> 00:25:22,070 S1: Yeah. Dan Darling is with us today. Highly recommended is 466 00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:25,990 S1: his book In Defense of Christian patriotism. Yeah, this is 467 00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:29,510 S1: a controversial issue, but we're talking about it here today 468 00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:32,390 S1: at the Radio Backyard Fence. Our program is recorded, so 469 00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:34,790 S1: don't call us today. But if you go to the 470 00:25:34,790 --> 00:25:38,510 S1: website Chris Fabry live.org, we have a link right there. 471 00:25:38,590 --> 00:25:40,670 S1: You can find out more about Dan, about the things 472 00:25:40,670 --> 00:25:43,990 S1: that he has written and what he's doing these days 473 00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:48,830 S1: in defense of Christian patriotism is our featured resource at 474 00:25:48,830 --> 00:25:54,670 S1: the website. Chris Fabry live.org, Chris Fabry, Livorno more coming 475 00:25:54,670 --> 00:26:07,110 S1: up straight ahead on Moody Radio. Thanks for joining us 476 00:26:07,109 --> 00:26:10,510 S1: today on Chris Fabry Live. Special guest is Dan Darling. 477 00:26:10,510 --> 00:26:14,869 S1: His book In Defense of Christian Patriotism is our featured 478 00:26:14,869 --> 00:26:17,710 S1: resource at the Radio Backyard Fence. And I've put off 479 00:26:17,710 --> 00:26:21,070 S1: having this conversation so that we can get into it 480 00:26:21,070 --> 00:26:25,430 S1: here today with you and Dan, there is this feeling of, 481 00:26:25,470 --> 00:26:28,390 S1: I can sense there's somebody listening who said, wait, wait, wait, 482 00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:31,470 S1: hang on a Christian patriotism. That doesn't sound right. You're 483 00:26:31,470 --> 00:26:34,710 S1: you're saying my country right or wrong, no matter what 484 00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:37,429 S1: it does, we're right. And I'm down for all of 485 00:26:37,470 --> 00:26:40,190 S1: that struggle right there. Is that what you're saying? 486 00:26:41,070 --> 00:26:44,830 S2: No. I'm not. In fact, uh, that phrase that you mentioned, 487 00:26:44,830 --> 00:26:47,630 S2: my country, right or wrong, is borrowed from G.K. Chesterton. 488 00:26:47,670 --> 00:26:50,790 S2: The famous British writer had a great essay on patriotism, 489 00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:53,550 S2: and he said, no true patriot would ever say my country, 490 00:26:53,550 --> 00:26:57,590 S2: right or wrong. And what patriotism isn't, it's not blind 491 00:26:57,630 --> 00:27:02,750 S2: support for a particular administration or particular leader or policy. Uh, 492 00:27:02,750 --> 00:27:07,430 S2: in fact, sometimes patriotism, love of country, love of the people, uh, 493 00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:11,709 S2: requires you to oppose certain policies or oppose certain things, um, 494 00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:16,310 S2: for the sake of the good of, of, of your neighbor, 495 00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:19,550 S2: for the good of your people. Um, and so I, 496 00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:22,230 S2: I don't want to misunderstand that. I want people to 497 00:27:22,270 --> 00:27:26,239 S2: think that means I have to just, you know, if, if, uh, 498 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,360 S2: if you're, uh, conservative and a Republicans in office, you 499 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,840 S2: have to always defend everything they do. Or if you're Democrat, 500 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,159 S2: Democrats don't defend everything they do or vice versa. No, 501 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,840 S2: you can be deeply patriotic and oppose certain things. But 502 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,760 S2: I do think what we should avoid is a kind 503 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,199 S2: of cynicism that just wants to burn the whole thing down, 504 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,320 S2: or wants the country to lose because of your dissatisfied 505 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,440 S2: with certain things. Uh, it's it's a deep love for 506 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,959 S2: the nation sometimes that requires you to get involved and say, 507 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,800 S2: we got to turn this around. We got to fix this. 508 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,560 S2: It's a little bit like your family, Chris, where, you know, 509 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,120 S2: there's issues. You know, our families have issues and problems 510 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,720 S2: and quirks and, uh, but you love them. You're called 511 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,440 S2: to love them. And if you, I don't think cynicism 512 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:16,280 S2: is a very good, uh, motivation for change. Uh, but 513 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,440 S2: I think patriotism is better if you love your country, 514 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,520 S2: you're going to seek to make it better. If you're cynical, 515 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,640 S2: you're just going to give up and you don't really 516 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,520 S2: care what happens. 517 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,800 S1: Yes. And there is also something throughout the book that 518 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,040 S1: you talk about, the kind of self-flagellation that we have done, 519 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:38,600 S1: particularly with the the younger coming up generation that's been taught, 520 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,240 S1: you know, America is terrible. It's awful. It's always been awful. 521 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,160 S1: And like you said, burn it down. Um, that kind of, 522 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,400 S1: of one sided view of what has happened is, is 523 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,960 S1: not helpful and explain that. 524 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,160 S2: Yeah. It's really about how we think about history in 525 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,600 S2: a particular our own American history. I think there's two 526 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,200 S2: wrong ways to approach our own history. One is to 527 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,320 S2: sort of whitewash everything that was shameful or bad or 528 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,360 S2: things America did that we know are wrong. You say, well, 529 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,920 S2: maybe slavery wasn't as bad, or maybe the internment of 530 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,480 S2: the Japanese was wasn't that bad. That's I think that's 531 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,280 S2: a wrong telling of history. I think the opposite is 532 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,920 S2: to is to say it's all bad. And to only 533 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,160 S2: pull one thread and say, this is the whole story 534 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,920 S2: of America. You know, things like the 1619 project and 535 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,000 S2: others just sort of describe America as only racist and 536 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,719 S2: only all these things. And I think our history is 537 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,200 S2: much more complicated. Um, and I think we get this 538 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,680 S2: from scripture. You know, if you look at Hebrews chapter 11, 539 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,240 S2: it talks about these heroes of the faith that in 540 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,040 S2: previous chapters and in previous books really talked about them, 541 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,280 S2: warts and all their mistakes, their flaws, but the, the 542 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,440 S2: sort of arc of their life was one of faith. 543 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,720 S2: I think we should look at America this way and say, um, 544 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,560 S2: there's good and bad. And when we're patriotic, when we're 545 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,600 S2: thinking about our history, we also think of the progress 546 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,120 S2: we've made and we think of our ideals, we celebrate 547 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,200 S2: our ideals. We have not fully lived up to our ideals, 548 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,920 S2: but we've come a long way. And really, the greatest 549 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,400 S2: social reformers in America loved the country. I mean, I 550 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,840 S2: think of Frederick Douglass speech. What did the slave is 551 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,920 S2: the 4th of July. I. He he revered the founders. 552 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,920 S2: He loved this idea, this project. He was just saying, 553 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,000 S2: can we include everybody in this in terms of all 554 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,640 S2: men are created equal. Martin Luther King Jr. He wasn't 555 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,640 S2: cynical about America. He was just calling America to live 556 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,200 S2: up to the promises that she had made. And I 557 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,840 S2: think we have to do that today if we you know, 558 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,200 S2: if we only read history as one line and only 559 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,640 S2: look at the bad, I don't think we're looking at 560 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:45,520 S2: it properly. 561 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,080 S1: I like what the quote from Richard Mouw theologian who 562 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,200 S1: described patriotism. He said, it's a sense of we ness. 563 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,640 S1: It's not them over there or us way back. Back 564 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,480 S1: when it's we together. So it's it's all of us, right? 565 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,120 S2: It really is. Uh, and I, I think we can 566 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,840 S2: get this, Chris, from a passage like Jeremiah 29 where 567 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,680 S2: Jeremiah is talking to the exiles in Babylon. And, you know, 568 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,530 S2: they consider themselves not citizens of Babylon. Their exiles are 569 00:31:21,530 --> 00:31:25,730 S2: strangers and foreigners in a strange land. We as Christians 570 00:31:25,770 --> 00:31:28,130 S2: see ourselves that way. If you read Hebrews, you read first, Peter, 571 00:31:28,130 --> 00:31:30,370 S2: that we're. We're looking for a city whose builder and 572 00:31:30,370 --> 00:31:32,970 S2: maker is God. And yet, what does Jeremiah tell them 573 00:31:32,970 --> 00:31:35,010 S2: to do? What does God tell them to do? Not 574 00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:37,850 S2: to huddle together, but to. To build and to plant, 575 00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:40,730 S2: but more importantly, seek the welfare, the flourishing of the 576 00:31:40,730 --> 00:31:43,930 S2: city where God has put you. And Chris, I don't 577 00:31:43,930 --> 00:31:46,969 S2: know if you will seek the welfare of the shalom, 578 00:31:47,170 --> 00:31:49,930 S2: the flourishing of your city and your country. If you 579 00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:52,570 S2: hate your country, if you loathe your country, or if 580 00:31:52,570 --> 00:31:57,490 S2: you're apathetic about it. Richard John Neuhaus said several decades 581 00:31:57,490 --> 00:32:00,850 S2: ago that he felt like patriotism was a kind of 582 00:32:00,890 --> 00:32:05,450 S2: a subset of discipleship. It's a way of stewarding your 583 00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:08,209 S2: life in the world that God has called you to. 584 00:32:09,010 --> 00:32:13,650 S1: Don't you think that that also, though, applies to if 585 00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:17,610 S1: you're against me on this, say, take the pro-life issue. 586 00:32:17,610 --> 00:32:22,970 S1: If you're pro-choice. If you're pro-choice and you want abortion 587 00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:26,690 S1: up to the moment of birth, it's like you're my enemy. 588 00:32:26,690 --> 00:32:29,330 S1: You're the person on the other side. And I've got 589 00:32:29,330 --> 00:32:34,290 S1: to eradicate this, this belief through, you know, pro-life policies. 590 00:32:34,290 --> 00:32:38,130 S1: ET cetera. ET cetera. I'm there's no sense of weakness there. 591 00:32:38,370 --> 00:32:40,450 S1: So how do I, how do I live in that 592 00:32:40,450 --> 00:32:41,570 S1: kind of soup? 593 00:32:42,130 --> 00:32:45,570 S2: That's such a great question, Chris. And I, I think 594 00:32:45,570 --> 00:32:49,090 S2: of Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address, where he said with 595 00:32:49,130 --> 00:32:51,850 S2: malice toward none, with charity, toward all. Um, he said, 596 00:32:51,850 --> 00:32:55,690 S2: we're not enemies, but friends. Look, we, uh, as a 597 00:32:55,690 --> 00:33:01,290 S2: conservative Christian, I have deep disagreements with people on the left. 598 00:33:01,450 --> 00:33:03,530 S2: I'm going to vote differently than they will. I'm going 599 00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:06,810 S2: to advocate in the public square policies that they disagree with. 600 00:33:06,810 --> 00:33:10,690 S2: I hope to persuade people to, to my side, um, 601 00:33:10,850 --> 00:33:14,530 S2: to advocate for the things I care about. Uh, I 602 00:33:14,610 --> 00:33:16,489 S2: think we should do that. But at the end of 603 00:33:16,490 --> 00:33:18,530 S2: the day, when you zoom out, you think we have 604 00:33:18,530 --> 00:33:21,290 S2: to share a country with with 50% of the country 605 00:33:21,290 --> 00:33:25,450 S2: that doesn't agree with us. And part of democracy, the messiness, 606 00:33:25,450 --> 00:33:28,050 S2: but also the goodness of it, is that we use 607 00:33:29,050 --> 00:33:34,290 S2: persuasion to try to change people's minds and hearts. And ultimately, 608 00:33:34,290 --> 00:33:37,530 S2: we believe that politics is important, that what we do 609 00:33:37,570 --> 00:33:39,770 S2: in our churches, the preaching of the gospel and the 610 00:33:39,810 --> 00:33:42,330 S2: changing of minds will ultimately persuade more people and the 611 00:33:42,330 --> 00:33:45,170 S2: way we live as neighbors. But I think, Chris, of 612 00:33:45,170 --> 00:33:47,610 S2: my my actual physical neighbors, you know, I live in 613 00:33:47,610 --> 00:33:50,489 S2: a community and I look and you have people that 614 00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:53,530 S2: vote differently than me. And but they're human beings made 615 00:33:53,530 --> 00:33:55,370 S2: the image of God. We're good friends and we have 616 00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:57,890 S2: conversations back and forth. And this is this is what 617 00:33:57,890 --> 00:34:02,090 S2: it looks like. And I sometimes I hear people on 618 00:34:02,090 --> 00:34:06,130 S2: either side say things like, I can't live in a 619 00:34:06,130 --> 00:34:08,930 S2: country with these people. Yes. And I just want to 620 00:34:08,969 --> 00:34:12,370 S2: ask and say, well, what's the alternative? I mean, you know, 621 00:34:12,410 --> 00:34:15,250 S2: it's not good. So I think we have to, particularly 622 00:34:15,250 --> 00:34:18,330 S2: as Christians, Chris, who see people as made in the 623 00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:21,650 S2: image of God, even people who disagree with us. Yes. 624 00:34:21,650 --> 00:34:23,690 S2: Let's persuade. Yes, let's fight for our issues. But at 625 00:34:23,690 --> 00:34:25,650 S2: the end of the day, you know we have to 626 00:34:25,690 --> 00:34:27,810 S2: live and love our neighbors as ourselves. 627 00:34:28,210 --> 00:34:31,450 S1: And fight for their opportunity to say what they believe 628 00:34:31,450 --> 00:34:33,250 S1: and to. That's right. And to stand up. You know, 629 00:34:33,290 --> 00:34:37,370 S1: it's like, that's, that's the, that's the experiment that we're in, 630 00:34:37,410 --> 00:34:40,049 S1: even though I don't like what you're saying and I 631 00:34:40,050 --> 00:34:44,770 S1: don't like your position, I'm going to defend your ability 632 00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:49,330 S1: to say it. And that weakness you mentioned, Lincoln. I 633 00:34:49,330 --> 00:34:52,730 S1: think it was the Gettysburg Address that shows this the 634 00:34:52,730 --> 00:34:56,930 S1: most starkly in that he didn't say, you know, the North, 635 00:34:56,930 --> 00:34:59,290 S1: we're the good guys in the South. It's the bad guys. 636 00:34:59,290 --> 00:35:03,770 S1: He said. They meaning all of the soldiers who fought there. 637 00:35:03,810 --> 00:35:08,770 S1: They have hallowed this ground with their blood. And he 638 00:35:08,810 --> 00:35:13,009 S1: he brought everybody together. This is not us against them. 639 00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:17,580 S1: Even though it was. He was trying to bring everybody together, 640 00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:19,940 S1: and I think we need more of that, don't you? 641 00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:23,140 S2: We really do. And I think the way we do that, Chris, 642 00:35:23,180 --> 00:35:26,219 S2: is first, obviously living it out as Christians and seeing 643 00:35:26,219 --> 00:35:30,060 S2: people the way God sees them as image bearers. But secondly, 644 00:35:30,060 --> 00:35:33,100 S2: doing this face to face, you know, uh, when we 645 00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:35,700 S2: are online and all of our arguments are taking place 646 00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:39,259 S2: mediated through screens, we tend to see our fellow citizens 647 00:35:39,260 --> 00:35:43,060 S2: as avatars to be crushed as enemies. But when you're 648 00:35:43,060 --> 00:35:45,780 S2: talking to them, you know, in the grocery line or, 649 00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:50,899 S2: or over the fence or whatever, um, and you're having 650 00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:55,420 S2: these conversations face to face. It's a little bit different, right? You, 651 00:35:55,580 --> 00:35:58,180 S2: I have found my own arguments sharpened when I talked 652 00:35:58,180 --> 00:36:01,300 S2: to someone who disagrees with me. I found that people 653 00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:05,460 S2: are not caricatures, that they're nuanced in the way that 654 00:36:05,460 --> 00:36:07,540 S2: they think about things. And there may actually be points 655 00:36:07,540 --> 00:36:10,060 S2: of agreement. So I think this is really important. If 656 00:36:10,060 --> 00:36:14,220 S2: we want to continue this democracy, we want this freedom 657 00:36:14,219 --> 00:36:17,620 S2: and prosperity to continue. I think it's incumbent on us 658 00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:21,860 S2: to do this. I mean, we have to be active in, um, 659 00:36:22,020 --> 00:36:23,700 S2: promoting that kind of civility. 660 00:36:24,580 --> 00:36:28,339 S1: And I think for me, the biggest struggle that I 661 00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:32,860 S1: have along these lines is if I see you believe 662 00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:37,100 S1: this about this issue or, uh, you know, just something 663 00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:41,020 S1: that is like, uh, that comes to the surface and says, okay, 664 00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:42,899 S1: so that's the way you vote or that's who you 665 00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:46,299 S1: voted for. I can so easily put a person in 666 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,620 S1: a box and I don't have to engage with them. 667 00:36:48,620 --> 00:36:51,020 S1: I don't have to think about them, I push them, 668 00:36:51,060 --> 00:36:55,020 S1: I marginalize them, push them to the side and think, well, they're, 669 00:36:55,060 --> 00:36:57,020 S1: you know, this is who they are. So I don't 670 00:36:57,020 --> 00:36:59,739 S1: have to deal with that. And that's I don't see 671 00:36:59,780 --> 00:37:01,020 S1: Jesus doing that. 672 00:37:01,540 --> 00:37:03,580 S2: That's right. I mean, you think about Jesus going out 673 00:37:03,580 --> 00:37:06,860 S2: of his way to go meet the woman at the well, 674 00:37:07,140 --> 00:37:09,180 S2: the Samaritan woman that it's to the point where the 675 00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:11,379 S2: disciples were scratching their head and saying, what is this 676 00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:13,779 S2: guy doing? I mean, don't you know, we don't talk 677 00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:17,020 S2: to those people and and yet he did. And one 678 00:37:17,020 --> 00:37:19,379 S2: of the signs that you're confident in your faith and 679 00:37:19,380 --> 00:37:21,540 S2: confident in your beliefs is that you're unafraid to talk 680 00:37:21,540 --> 00:37:25,020 S2: to people, disagree with you. I think if you're insecure 681 00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:28,020 S2: in what you believe, you're a little nervous about being challenged, 682 00:37:28,060 --> 00:37:29,700 S2: a little nervous about being in the company of people 683 00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:32,020 S2: might disagree with you, but if you know what you believe, 684 00:37:32,060 --> 00:37:35,859 S2: you know where you're going. You understand that Christ is 685 00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:38,100 S2: Lord over all that. One day he's coming back to 686 00:37:38,140 --> 00:37:41,020 S2: rule and reign in victory. Then you don't have to 687 00:37:41,020 --> 00:37:43,859 S2: be afraid to engage people who disagree with you. And 688 00:37:43,860 --> 00:37:46,580 S2: I think of Jesus words in John 17 where he's 689 00:37:46,580 --> 00:37:48,420 S2: not taking us out of this world, but put us 690 00:37:48,420 --> 00:37:50,779 S2: in this world to engage the world around us with 691 00:37:50,780 --> 00:37:51,540 S2: with the truth. 692 00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:56,299 S1: Dan Darling has written a really deep book that will 693 00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:58,980 S1: take you through the history of the country. It's in 694 00:37:58,980 --> 00:38:02,940 S1: defense of Christian patriotism. You might not agree with everything 695 00:38:02,940 --> 00:38:05,460 S1: that he says in here, but I think you'll you'll 696 00:38:05,460 --> 00:38:08,379 S1: grow as you have listened here today and as you 697 00:38:08,380 --> 00:38:11,670 S1: read the book In Defense of Patriotism featured resource at 698 00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:24,710 S1: Chris fabry.org, Chris dot ORG. Dan Darling is our guest 699 00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:27,950 S1: today on Chris Fabry Live or programs recorded. Don't Call 700 00:38:27,950 --> 00:38:31,509 S1: Us in Defense of Christian Patriotism is our featured resource 701 00:38:31,950 --> 00:38:38,670 S1: at Chris fabry.org. Chris fabriclive.org. I hope you've enjoyed the conversation. 702 00:38:38,910 --> 00:38:42,790 S1: Let's talk a little bit about the, the wrapping of our, 703 00:38:42,910 --> 00:38:45,509 S1: you know, ourselves in the flag and we've got to 704 00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:48,190 S1: vote exactly like the other person. We are a Christian. 705 00:38:48,190 --> 00:38:50,270 S1: You got to vote for X or Y or Z, 706 00:38:50,989 --> 00:38:53,430 S1: and I've got to have the bumper sticker. I've got 707 00:38:53,430 --> 00:38:55,350 S1: to be out there on the stump. I've got to 708 00:38:55,350 --> 00:38:59,070 S1: be exactly like my friends, you know, who are wearing 709 00:38:59,070 --> 00:39:02,590 S1: the red, white and blue today. You say there's room 710 00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:05,270 S1: for differences here, right? 711 00:39:06,070 --> 00:39:11,310 S2: Yeah, there really are. And, um, you know, God has 712 00:39:11,310 --> 00:39:15,270 S2: called each one of us differently, with different opportunities, different resources, 713 00:39:15,710 --> 00:39:19,190 S2: different giftings. We should respect that in the body of Christ, 714 00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:22,630 S2: and particularly when it comes to engagement in the culture 715 00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:26,030 S2: and politics. I do advocate in this book and elsewhere 716 00:39:26,030 --> 00:39:28,989 S2: that I think every Christian at some level, because we 717 00:39:28,989 --> 00:39:31,029 S2: love our neighbor as ourselves, because we want to seek 718 00:39:31,070 --> 00:39:33,629 S2: the flourishing of our cities and communities, that we should 719 00:39:33,630 --> 00:39:37,109 S2: be engaged. We have something at stake, but that's going 720 00:39:37,150 --> 00:39:40,990 S2: to look different for different people, right? Some some Christians 721 00:39:40,989 --> 00:39:43,110 S2: are going to be called to run for office or 722 00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:47,589 S2: call to speak out on certain things in a public way, 723 00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:50,549 S2: writing columns or speaking and all those things. Other people 724 00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:52,509 S2: are going to be engaged, but do it in a 725 00:39:52,510 --> 00:39:55,230 S2: more quiet way. And so what I'm not saying is 726 00:39:55,390 --> 00:39:58,830 S2: to be truly patriotic. Everyone has to scream in all 727 00:39:58,830 --> 00:40:02,910 S2: caps on social media at the same time. Um, but 728 00:40:03,310 --> 00:40:05,470 S2: that there are different columns and we need to respect those, right? 729 00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:07,990 S2: Sometimes it's easy to look over at someone who maybe 730 00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:10,189 S2: feels called to run for office and say, man, you're 731 00:40:10,190 --> 00:40:14,150 S2: making politics an idol. Or someone who's deeply engaged in 732 00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:16,870 S2: politics because that's their calling. To look at someone who is, 733 00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:20,470 S2: you know, running a nonprofit in their community or doing 734 00:40:20,469 --> 00:40:22,430 S2: some things that are really important and meaningful, but are 735 00:40:22,430 --> 00:40:24,469 S2: not as public to say, oh, they need to have 736 00:40:24,469 --> 00:40:26,550 S2: the courage to get involved like I am. You know, 737 00:40:26,590 --> 00:40:28,710 S2: there's different callings, different seasons of life. We have to 738 00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:29,510 S2: respect that. 739 00:40:30,270 --> 00:40:33,149 S1: What about you mentioned a little earlier and I read 740 00:40:33,150 --> 00:40:35,149 S1: the quote from you as a pastor. I wouldn't let 741 00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:38,430 S1: a person, you know, a politician, come into the pulpit. 742 00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:41,910 S1: What if you've got a deacon or you've got somebody 743 00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:44,989 S1: who's an elder in the church and they're running for 744 00:40:44,989 --> 00:40:49,150 S1: the school board and or, you know, for sheriff or 745 00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:53,709 S1: whatever the situation is in a local election, you, you, 746 00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:57,350 S1: you know, that person stands up and prays in, in 747 00:40:57,390 --> 00:41:01,630 S1: the service, even though they're running for a political office. 748 00:41:01,670 --> 00:41:02,790 S1: What do you say about that? 749 00:41:03,070 --> 00:41:05,590 S2: You know, that's a that's a difficult question that pastors 750 00:41:05,590 --> 00:41:09,670 S2: have to wrestle with. Uh, I generally don't love pastors 751 00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:12,630 S2: giving endorsements publicly from the pulpit, but I have friends 752 00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:15,350 S2: that disagree with that. And maybe there's times where it's 753 00:41:15,350 --> 00:41:18,149 S2: a local, beloved figure from the church that's doing this 754 00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:20,790 S2: and everyone wants to support them. Um, what I do 755 00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:25,750 S2: think would be helpful and good if pastors would really 756 00:41:25,750 --> 00:41:29,109 S2: help people in their congregations who do feel a call 757 00:41:29,110 --> 00:41:33,549 S2: to public service to really, um, mentor them and counsel them. 758 00:41:33,590 --> 00:41:36,950 S2: Often those people feel very lonely and they would like 759 00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:39,509 S2: people in their lives who could just, you know, give 760 00:41:39,510 --> 00:41:43,550 S2: them some advice and counsel and shape them to, um, 761 00:41:43,590 --> 00:41:47,310 S2: commend them for stepping out in public. This way, you know, 762 00:41:47,350 --> 00:41:48,989 S2: if you go to run for office, even if you're 763 00:41:48,989 --> 00:41:53,430 S2: running for school board or, or mayor or something, immediately, 764 00:41:53,469 --> 00:41:56,750 S2: half the half the country or half the electorate hates you, right? 765 00:41:56,790 --> 00:41:59,110 S2: So you're, you're taking on a lot. Your family's taking 766 00:41:59,110 --> 00:42:01,430 S2: a lot. So to have a body of believers that say, 767 00:42:01,430 --> 00:42:03,750 S2: we're with you, we love you. Uh, we want to 768 00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:06,640 S2: help you. We want to, you know, and for a 769 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,960 S2: pastor to mentor and guide them. I think one of 770 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,640 S2: the reasons our politics is so fraught these days, among 771 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:18,360 S2: other reasons, is that when really good people of character retreat, 772 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,799 S2: you know, what fills that vacuum is often worse. And 773 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,520 S2: so for people to say, you know, to, to support those, 774 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,760 S2: those folks, a lot of times I have some friends 775 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,239 S2: who are in office and sometimes they feel when they 776 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:30,799 S2: go to church, not all the time, some of them 777 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,840 S2: feel like, you know, can I have fellowship because people 778 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,359 S2: see me as a senator or congressman, and either they're 779 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,600 S2: trying to hit them up for something that they need, 780 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,080 S2: or they kind of disdain the fact that they're in 781 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,280 S2: politics and they have to do certain things. And so 782 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,960 S2: I think just to be the body of Christ for 783 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,040 S2: folks who run for office is really helpful. Important. Yeah. 784 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,040 S1: All right. So talk to the person who says, yeah, 785 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,960 S1: where's the line? Where do you see the Christian patriot? 786 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,520 S1: Where does it go? South. Where is the line that 787 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,920 S1: you step over? And when you step over that, then 788 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,320 S1: it's too far. What do you say to that? 789 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,480 S2: Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think we 790 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,760 S2: have to be very careful, particularly on Sundays, Chris, that 791 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,359 S2: we as things come up in the text, we should 792 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,960 S2: talk about moral and spiritual issues so Christians can know 793 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,640 S2: how to to live this out in this current culture. 794 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,520 S2: We should be unafraid to talk about those things. But man, 795 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,680 S2: we don't need more pundits in the pulpit. People come 796 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,799 S2: on Sundays. They need to hear a word from the Lord. 797 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,280 S2: And we have to be very careful about guarding that. 798 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:38,960 S2: And Christians in politics, um, it's not just important that 799 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,439 S2: we have the right position on an issue that is important, 800 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,959 S2: but the way we conduct ourselves, the New Testament has 801 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,879 S2: a lot to say about the way we speak, about 802 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,840 S2: the way we talk about people who disagree with us, 803 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,799 S2: our demeanor. And there's a tendency for us. And I 804 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,879 S2: can fall into this trap myself to say, well, this 805 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,480 S2: is politics. So I sort of have an exemption to 806 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,040 S2: act in a in a different way. I don't think so. 807 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,560 S2: I think the way we conduct ourselves, we are a 808 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,680 S2: witness to the gospel. We should look at our political 809 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,440 S2: parties and politics as a mission field. And when people 810 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,240 S2: see me in this space, do they see Jesus? AM 811 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,960 S2: I example to Christ or or am I just doing 812 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:15,120 S2: what everyone else does? 813 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,440 S1: You bring up nine over 11 and the unity that 814 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,080 S1: we felt that then pretty quickly dissolved, you know, between 815 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:30,480 S1: the partisan in-fighting. So I'd love to see that kind 816 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,200 S1: of unity, even though we disagree on different things. As 817 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,279 S1: you look at that and as you look at where 818 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,400 S1: we are today, what's ahead for the US? How are 819 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:45,560 S1: we going to do this experiment as we're reaching 250 years? 820 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,160 S2: Yeah. Yeah, I really I think back to that time 821 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,560 S2: after nine over 11. I was about 22, 23 years old. And, 822 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,399 S2: you know, you had Democrat and Republican singing God Bless 823 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,520 S2: America together on the steps of the Capitol. Um, you 824 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,000 S2: had that unity. And really, sadly, we, we don't have that. 825 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,200 S2: And even among Christians, and I would love to see 826 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,200 S2: something like that again. You know, we've always been a 827 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,600 S2: country where we've had debates. There's always been very partisan elections. 828 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,680 S2: Even go back to when Jefferson and Adams ran against 829 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,920 S2: each other. But I think there is a polarization today 830 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,040 S2: that is unhealthy. And if we want this nation to survive, 831 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,920 S2: I think we have to reverse some of that. Um, 832 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:28,000 S2: I think it's going to require leaders who, who, while 833 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,080 S2: having positions and fighting for them and trying to win elections. 834 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,480 S2: Also when they're in office, doing the work they can 835 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,400 S2: to try to unify the country as best they can. Yeah, 836 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,320 S2: I think it's going to require Christians doing this. Um, 837 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,200 S2: we should pray for our country. I really think we 838 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:48,480 S2: should pray for spiritual renewal in the country. Politics is important. 839 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,160 S2: Policy matters, but ultimately we need spiritual renewal. We need 840 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,680 S2: people to turn back to Christ. Uh, and that first 841 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,000 S2: starts in the church and then works outward from there. 842 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,330 S2: So as much as we can do it, as Romans says, 843 00:46:01,330 --> 00:46:03,730 S2: we should try to live at peace with all men and. 844 00:46:03,730 --> 00:46:07,450 S2: But I'm actually pretty bullish on the country, Chris. Uh, 845 00:46:07,450 --> 00:46:09,650 S2: you know, when I think about it, we've we've lasted 846 00:46:09,650 --> 00:46:14,130 S2: 250 years. You know, this experiment, it's a little rickety, 847 00:46:14,170 --> 00:46:18,490 S2: needs a little oil in some places, but we're still here. And, uh, 848 00:46:18,489 --> 00:46:20,130 S2: I think it's up to us to try to do 849 00:46:20,130 --> 00:46:23,610 S2: what we can to preserve it for the next 250 years. Yes. 850 00:46:23,930 --> 00:46:27,009 S1: I'm so glad you put your heart and soul into this, Dan. 851 00:46:27,010 --> 00:46:28,689 S1: I think this is one of your best books, if 852 00:46:28,690 --> 00:46:31,850 S1: not your best. Thanks for sharing your heart with us today. 853 00:46:32,610 --> 00:46:34,810 S2: Well, thank you, Chris, and just thank you for letting 854 00:46:34,810 --> 00:46:37,090 S2: me come on the radio and talk about these these things. 855 00:46:37,890 --> 00:46:43,330 S1: In defense of Christian patriotism, written by Dan Darling. Danielle darling. 856 00:46:43,330 --> 00:46:47,649 S1: You can find more about him at Chris. favorite.org. Chris. 857 00:46:47,690 --> 00:46:52,490 S1: Favorite archive.org. Our program's production of Moody Radio, a Ministry 858 00:46:52,489 --> 00:46:54,250 S1: of Moody Bible Institute.