S1: The goal is really ultimately just to learn pathways back
S1: to joy from these emotions so we don't get stuck
S1: or we don't have to sidetrack.
S2: There are things that you can do to train your
S2: brain to run on the fuel of joy, instead of
S2: always running on the fuel of fear. And it's important
S2: for people to understand what those principles are.
S3: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S3: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages.
S3: Is joy the icing on life's cake, or is it
S3: the fuel on which it runs? Today, Marcus Warner and
S3: Chris Coursey return to reveal what brain science says about
S3: becoming a joy filled person.
S2: And as we begin this summer, best of broadcast from
S2: last September, we want you to know that today's resource
S2: is titled The Four Habits of Joy Filled People. 15
S2: Minute Brain Science hacks to a more connected and satisfying life.
S2: Find out more at building relationships.us. Gary. It seems to
S2: me there are some people who come out of the
S2: womb joyful. They're exuberant, ready to rush into life. And
S2: then there are those who struggle to find joy in anything.
S4: Well, I think that's true, Chris. And of course, those
S4: are the ones that are in my office. They're not
S4: finding joy in life and they're looking for help, you know? Uh,
S4: but I am excited about our discussion today because, listen,
S4: the Bible has a lot to say about joy. And
S4: I think this is going to be a helpful program
S4: for our listeners.
S2: I do too. So let's get right to it. Doctor
S2: Marcus Warner is president of Deeper Walk International, former pastor,
S2: college professor. He's written on everything from how to study
S2: the Bible to dealing with spiritual warfare to emotional healing.
S2: His heart really is to equip people with practical tools
S2: for dealing with rude issues that keep them stuck. So
S2: if you're stuck, you keep listening. His co-author is Chris Coursey.
S2: He's president of Thrive Today, a nonprofit ministry focusing on
S2: training leaders and communities and skills that make relationships work.
S2: He's an ordained minister, pastoral counselor and author. You can
S2: find out more about them and the book The Four
S2: Habits of Joy filled People at Building Relationships. Us.
S4: Well, Doctor Warner and Chris, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S2: Hey, this is exciting. Thank you. Gary.
S4: We're glad you're here. Very excited about it and excited
S4: about our topic. And in this book, you've written about
S4: joy filled marriages and how to raise children to find joy.
S4: How to turn on the joy switch in your brain. So, Chris,
S4: you really believe there's something to this topic of joy? Obviously.
S1: Yes, I do, Gary and Marcus and I really want
S1: to get this message of joy out there to the world.
S1: You know, joy just really is one of those ingredients.
S1: When it's there and it's present, we feel it. We
S1: want to share it with everybody we interact with. when
S1: it's not there. We also feel that and it's just
S1: not a fun place to visit for very long. So
S1: this whole topic of joy is very exciting. It's just
S1: looking at how the brain works and how the brain runs,
S1: and how joy really is the fuel for our relationships,
S1: for our life, for our character, for all kinds of
S1: good things that are really important for us. So joy
S1: is just it's a fun topic and it's something we
S1: just love to talk about.
S4: Well, Doctor Warner, why do you say that joy is
S4: important for people.
S2: So a couple things. One, you mentioned that the low
S2: joy people are the ones who show up in your
S2: office for counseling. Right? And that is high joy, people
S2: or don't go counseling going, you know, I just got
S2: to thinking much joy in my life, right? They, uh,
S2: people don't complain about, you know? Oh, if I just
S2: get rid of some of this joy, my life would
S2: be a whole lot better. And one of the things
S2: that we learned is from a from a neuroscience perspective,
S2: we have learned that the brain wants to run on
S2: the fuel of joy, and if it can't find it,
S2: it will run on the fuel of fear. And so
S2: most of your clients right there running on fear, and
S2: they can't find enough joy to counteract that. So what
S2: we're trying to do is help people understand that there
S2: are things that you can do to train your brain
S2: to run on the fuel of joy, instead of always
S2: running on the fuel of fear. And it's important for
S2: people to understand what those principles are.
S4: So there's an analogy that you use of the fear
S4: House and the Joy House. Doctor Warner explained that.
S2: So here's the idea is that we all have an
S2: inner world, and in that inner world, I'm either going
S2: to build a fear house or a joy house. If
S2: I build a fear house in my inner world, what
S2: it means is I don't like spending a lot of
S2: time alone. It's hard for me to just be by myself.
S2: I need distraction, I need entertainment, I need something going on.
S2: I don't like to be quiet and by myself because
S2: my inner world is not a happy place to be.
S2: And so if that's my life, and I find that
S2: I'm constantly filling it with distractions, that I'm going to
S2: fill it with addictions, that's not healthy for anybody. So
S2: what I need to do instead is learn. How do
S2: I start building a joy house? Because as I start
S2: building a joy house in my inner world, I will
S2: spend less time in that fear house and more time
S2: in the joy house. And the result will be greater
S2: emotional stability in my life.
S4: Well, we hope that this program and the book is
S4: going to help some people build a Joy House. You know, Chris,
S4: anxiety and mental health issues are rising in our country,
S4: particularly among young people. Uh, what's your perspective on that?
S5: Yeah.
S1: You know, joy is one of those things that our
S1: brain is wired for. Joy means we're glad to be together.
S1: Joy is a high energy emotion. It's a high energy response.
S1: So infants, when they build joy, they they get all
S1: this energy. And you can see it and you can
S1: hear joy. And so one of the things that's happening
S1: in our day and age is some of these important skills,
S1: like joy and rest, are just kind of fading from
S1: a lot of our families and our communities. And so ultimately,
S1: your nervous system needs a rhythm of joy and rest.
S1: And so we build high energy joy, and then we
S1: can access the low energy rest states. And what's happening
S1: is some of us are just low on joy, and
S1: our joy tanks are getting dangerously low, or some of
S1: us were not resting and quieting, um, maybe we're on
S1: our phone too much or whatever it might be. Ultimately,
S1: we're not finding that rhythm of joy and rest. And
S1: so what happens is we get stuck and we we
S1: become kind of fear based with what Marcus was talking about.
S1: So a lot of, um, a lot of our youth
S1: are really struggling with this absence of rest and this, uh,
S1: just absence of joy. And we're turning to technology or
S1: they're turning to other things to kind of compensate. And
S1: that just doesn't go well. You know, the good news
S1: is people can learn to train their brain to run
S1: on the fuel of joy. With a little bit of practice,
S1: we can grow joy. With a little bit of practice,
S1: we can learn to quiet and rest. And really, the
S1: absence of rest and quiet is the greatest predictor for
S1: lifelong mental health. And so this is a message Marcus
S1: and I really want to shout from the rooftops so
S1: that our families and our communities can develop these habits
S1: that really protect their mental health and really grow more
S1: joy and bring more peace into families and communities.
S4: Yeah, I think this tool is that you have in
S4: the book is going to be helpful to parents who
S4: are working with their young people and trying to figure out,
S4: you know, what's going on here. And Doctor Warner, you know,
S4: you've created a free resource to help people start building
S4: joy into their lives. So tell us a little bit
S4: about that.
S2: Yeah. You can go to for habits.org. And uh, what
S2: we put there is the 28 day Joy challenge. And uh,
S2: Chris actually is the primary person who crafted a lot
S2: of these exercises. But what we wanted to do is, like,
S2: the book is full of all the explanations and all
S2: the principles and a whole bunch more exercises. But we
S2: wanted to give people 28 days of exercises that they
S2: could do to start building joy now. And what we
S2: found is that it takes about 28 days, you know,
S2: for the brain to begin forming a habit. And so
S2: that's why we've put a 28 day joy challenge together.
S2: And I think people can, uh, can download it in
S2: calendar form and stick it up on the refrigerator. They
S2: can get a daily email with their exercise of the day.
S2: But this is just in time intended to give people
S2: a simple tool to help them get jump started in
S2: this process of building their Joy House.
S4: Is that designed for adults or young people or both?
S2: Yeah, if you can read, you can probably go through it. It's, uh,
S2: it's it I mean, it's ideal for adults, but, um,
S2: you know, there's no reason why, uh, an older kid, uh,
S2: couldn't do this as well. The president of Deeper Walk International,
S2: Doctor Marcus Warner, is with us, as well as the
S2: president of thrive today, Chris Coursey. Again, you can find
S2: out more about them and our featured resource at Building
S2: Relationships Us.
S4: Well, the book we're discussing, the title has to do
S4: with four habits that people can use to build joy
S4: into their lives. So let's talk about the four habits. Uh,
S4: can you give us an overview of those four?
S2: Yeah, let me dive into this because we talked about, uh,
S2: building a joy house. So we took the idea of house,
S2: and we used the Spanish word casa, right, to remember
S2: these four habits. And the idea is that this is
S2: what you find people doing who are the sort of
S2: people you would characterize as joy filled. They they're good
S2: at calming, uh, quieting their bodies or calming from when
S2: their emotions get high. They're good at regulating their emotions.
S2: That's calming too. They're good at appreciating they. They don't
S2: just say thank you. They stay in a state of
S2: appreciation for five minutes at a time on a regular basis. Uh,
S2: three they tell a different kind of story than people
S2: who are trapped in their fear houses. Uh, fear based
S2: stories tend to end with. This bad thing happened to me.
S2: I felt that bad emotion. And that's why I'm stuck
S2: the way I am. Uh, a joy story is this
S2: bad thing happened to me. I went through this bad emotion. But. Right.
S2: This is how I recovered. This is how I was
S2: able to act like myself. Anyway, they tell a different
S2: kind of story. And then the last one is attacking
S2: toxic thinking. As you know, the fastest way our joy
S2: gets sabotaged is we get these, this toxic thought flow
S2: going through our head, and we got to learn how to, um,
S2: replace those thoughts if we're going to stay joy filled people.
S2: So it's calming, appreciating storytelling and attacking attacking, toxic thinking.
S4: Uh, take a minute, either one of you and share
S4: just the first one. That calming thing. How does that work?
S1: Calming is is really just pausing to take some deep breaths.
S1: And so calming is being able to just quiet your body,
S1: quiet your mind, take some deep breaths. Really just taking
S1: kind of a relational breather. And so we just pause
S1: throughout our day just to quiet, just to breathe. And
S1: you know what? A little bit of quieting goes a
S1: long way. And just it could be a 32nd pause
S1: here and there. And what this does is it really
S1: just trains our brain to notice when we need a
S1: breather and to notice how it feels when we take
S1: a breather. So it's just a nice pause to refresh,
S1: recharge and then just continue to go about your day.
S2: So calming is is both this idea of taking a
S2: break and establishing a rhythm in life. But it also
S2: gets to this idea of what do I do when
S2: I've got high energy anxiety coursing through my body? How
S2: do I quiet it? What do I do when I'm
S2: so angry, right, that my body is I'm having a
S2: physical reaction to it? How do I quiet that? And
S2: so we talk about the importance of deep breathing, the
S2: importance of learning how to soothe the tension in our bodies,
S2: how to exaggerate an emotion and then quiet it, and
S2: then how to recognize the thought patterns that are driving it,
S2: and quiet those thought patterns as I'm also taking care
S2: of my body. So we we call those best practices.
S2: It's breathing, exaggerating, soothing and and tackling those toxic thoughts.
S4: And I think those are things that our listeners can
S4: understand that that's doable. You know, it's a matter of
S4: focusing on them, but they're doable. We'll come back to
S4: some of those others later. But the subtitle of your
S4: book talks about 15 Minute Brain Science Hacks. Can you
S4: tell us some of those exercises and what they do
S4: to the brain?
S2: Yeah. So the exercises start with, uh, this idea that
S2: the fastest way to grow joy is the practice of appreciation.
S2: And so by appreciation, we more than mean more than
S2: just saying thank you. It's like a lot of us say, oh,
S2: thank you for that cup of coffee and we're done.
S2: Or oh, isn't that a pretty sunset? And we're done.
S2: Appreciation is actually taking the time to really enjoy and
S2: experience and be present in that experience and and let
S2: your body feel, you know, the appreciation of what you're
S2: going through. And so we can do appreciation in the
S2: present or we can anticipate it in the future. Like,
S2: I can't wait till I get to the lake and
S2: I get to enjoy all this stuff, and we can
S2: spend several minutes in that state of anticipation, feeling the
S2: joy of what's going to happen. Or we can do it.
S2: In the past, we can remember times when we felt
S2: so much appreciation and we were just things felt so good,
S2: and we can relive those experiences in a way that
S2: cause our body to actually reenter a state of joy.
S2: Just remembering what, uh, had once happened in our past.
S2: So one of the brain science hacks is that appreciation
S2: is the fastest way to grow joy, and that you
S2: can do it in the past, present, or the future.
S1: And the good, good thing about appreciation is, as Marcus said, that,
S1: you know, our body responds when we can access some
S1: of those joyful moments from our lives. And so your
S1: brain responds as well as though you went back in
S1: time and you relive the moment all over again. So
S1: the remarkable thing that we now know about experiencing appreciation
S1: is it it our body and our mind respond as
S1: though we're reliving the moment then when we share our stories.
S1: As Marcus mentioned, the importance of storytelling. When you share
S1: your appreciation story, what we now know is good storytellers.
S1: When they tell their stories, Listeners, they've scanned the brains
S1: of listeners who are listening to stories. Then the listeners
S1: brains will light up like the storytellers brains. And so
S1: the listener is actually experiencing some of that joy as well.
S1: So just by hearing the story, imagining it and feeling it,
S1: it's just the joy just starts to spread. And that's
S1: really the beauty of these practices that we can practice
S1: this on our own by just remembering the good stuff,
S1: but we can also share this joy with others and
S1: they benefit as well.
S4: Can that appreciation sometimes focus on things as well as experiences? Uh,
S4: you know, I'm thinking of the person who has almost nothing,
S4: and maybe they have a bed to sleep in, and
S4: there's not much else in the house. Uh, and they
S4: feel isolated and all of that. But to focus on.
S4: Wait a minute, I have a bed, you know. Thank
S4: thank for the bed and the sheet or whatever. Can
S4: it sometimes start on that level?
S1: No, that that's an excellent question. And yeah, I mean
S1: gratitude is is a cousin to appreciation. And so the
S1: nice thing about gratitude is we can be thankful for
S1: the bed. We can be thankful for the for the pillow.
S1: We can be thankful for the heat in the winter time.
S1: And one of the things that happens with gratitude is
S1: it also kind of charges our relational battery like appreciation.
S1: So gratitude wakes up the relational centers in our brain
S1: and also creates a physical response. And so gratitude is
S1: just really one of the great, easy, simple ways that
S1: we can start to prime ourselves and others for sharing
S1: some joy.
S4: Now, you mentioned also some myths about joy. Uh, so,
S4: Doctor Walter, what are some of those myths?
S2: So one of those myths is that people are just
S2: born happy. Um, so the truth here is that the
S2: mechanics of what's going on in your brain to allow
S2: you to be a joyful person are largely undeveloped when
S2: you're born. As a result, they have to grow through exercise.
S2: And so what happens is a babies come out of
S2: the womb craving attachment. They're craving somebody to be happy
S2: to see them, and they learn to bond and get
S2: a secure bond, you know, through the smell of the mom,
S2: through the touch and the feel, the skin. And and
S2: then that translates to the eyes and eventually those eyes
S2: light up. And what are those eyes looking for? They're
S2: looking for somebody who's happy to be with them. And
S2: so babies can go through hours and hours of day
S2: of what we call joy workouts and a joy workouts
S2: where they're there with their making eye contact with somebody
S2: who's excited to see them. They're happy that it's them,
S2: and they feel all this high energy joy and it grows.
S2: And when that happens, it literally grows part of their brain.
S2: The same way that working out with weights would grow
S2: our muscles. And then baby needs a break and they
S2: just kind of stop and they they look away. And
S2: then a few minutes later they come back for more.
S2: But they needed that rest. And so we find as
S2: a joy workout, the baby needs both that high energy
S2: joy and then that low energy rest. And when you
S2: get those two things together, the part of their brain
S2: that is capable of experiencing joy grows. And so the
S2: good news on this is that those joy workouts will
S2: continue to help our brain grow for as long as
S2: we live. Just like if I didn't lift weights in
S2: high school, but I want to start now, it can
S2: still benefit me. Um, there are things that I can
S2: do to grow my capacity for joy right from the beginning,
S2: so there's a whole lot more I could say on that.
S2: But the key thing here is that we aren't just
S2: born joyful. We actually have to grow our capacity for
S2: joy by doing the kind of workouts that build that
S2: part of our brain.
S4: Yeah. So the myth is that people are born happy. So, Chris,
S4: what what is what are some other myths that people
S4: commonly have about joy?
S1: Yeah, there's there's quite a number of them out there.
S1: And one of the other myths is that joyful people
S1: have fewer problems than low joy people. And we always
S1: like to talk about that one, because even though I
S1: might have a lot of joy in my relational battery,
S1: I still encounter pain. I still encounter problems, I still
S1: get stuck in traffic. I still, you know, wrestle with
S1: with different struggles in life. And so even though we're
S1: growing joy, it doesn't just mean that our problem supernaturally disappear.
S1: But what it does mean is joy. Joy filled people
S1: are anchored in the storms. And so joy really gives
S1: us the strength to suffer well and to be able
S1: to stay relational when things are hard. Whereas when I'm
S1: my joy tank is low, then what happens is pain
S1: and problems become very loud and they kind of dominate
S1: my mind and my body. So Joy is a really
S1: good relational life preserver as well. That just kind of
S1: keeps us afloat. And whether I have a lot of
S1: or little joy, I still have hard stuff happen, but
S1: joy really trains me to be able to stay resilient
S1: in the midst of the challenges. Yeah.
S4: All you have to do is read the New Testament
S4: to know the truth of that reality. Right? The apostles right.
S4: And all that they went through in the book of acts.
S4: I've been reading that in my quiet time recently. Wow.
S4: But it's joy in the midst of those things, because
S4: all of us have those things to be sure.
S2: I think you'll appreciate this too. One of the stories
S2: we tell is of Corrie ten boom, right? Being in
S2: the concentration camp, and how her sister Betsy basically mentored
S2: her in appreciation, and how the joy that they were
S2: able to build through appreciation and through relational connection gave
S2: them the emotional strength that they needed to endure the hardship.
S2: And so that's what we're saying. They didn't have to
S2: get out of the concentration camp before they could build
S2: some joy. And that's what the beauty of all of this.
S2: And that's why we say there's a kind of a
S2: myth out there that my life has to. If my
S2: life just got better, then I'd be happy. Um, we
S2: don't have to wait till then. That's the good news. Well,
S2: they gave thanks for lice, didn't they, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yes,
S2: because it kept the kept the guards away from them.
S2: And so what was something that made him itch and,
S2: you know, very uncomfortable was actually something that they could
S2: see as thank you for this provision. Yeah, exactly. And
S2: that's why we say it's a myth that, uh, your
S2: life has to be everything has to be fixed and
S2: working in your life before you can build joy. Joy
S2: is about learning how to focus on the good things
S2: that there are to enjoy, and the things to be
S2: grateful for, even when everything else is not necessarily the
S2: way you want it.
S4: Is there a relationship between joy and peace, or are
S4: they the same?
S2: Well, there's absolutely a connection that you can look at
S2: it this way. Joy is high energy. I'm happy to
S2: be with you and peace is low energy. I'm happy
S2: to be with you. So it's like I can be
S2: excited that daddy has walked in the front door and
S2: I can be snuggled up next to him and resting
S2: and be happy. And one is peace and the other
S2: is joy. So they have to do with whether it's
S2: creating a high energy or low energy in my body.
S1: And I've heard it said, uh, that joy is peace
S1: dancing and peace is joy resting. And so there, yeah,
S1: there really are complementary. And where you find joy, peace
S1: is right there.
S4: Yeah, I like that. You know, you talk about joy
S4: robbers in people's lives. What are some of those robbers
S4: take away our joy.
S2: Well, I think one of the top ones is toxic thinking.
S2: And I'll give you an example. It's like I got
S2: a cup of coffee and I'll sit here and I'll
S2: start to enjoy it, and I'll be intentionally trying to
S2: just enjoy the experience of the coffee. And I can
S2: have this thought come into my head that says, you know,
S2: this is the stupidest thing you've ever done. And that
S2: toxic thought that comes in there to try to snatch
S2: it away. It's like, if I don't have a strategy
S2: or game plan for saying, nope, that's I can't let
S2: my mind go there. I need to replace that thought
S2: with something else. It'll rob me of my joy. So
S2: one of the core joy robbers are, uh, allowing these
S2: toxic thoughts to take root and, uh, not doing anything
S2: to recognize that they're there and replace them.
S1: Yeah. Another joy robber would also be what we call traumas.
S1: And so in the book we talk about a traumas
S1: and B traumas and a traumas are the painful absences.
S1: So I'm not getting something that I need and something
S1: important that I need, like joy for example. And the
S1: B traumas are the bad things which should not happen.
S1: Marcus and I use the example of there's two ways
S1: to kill a flower. Don't water it. That would be
S1: an absence or step on it, which would be a
S1: bad thing. And so we've all had, you know, things
S1: happen in life where we just didn't get what we
S1: needed in a moment or something bad happened that shouldn't
S1: have happened. And those do rob our joy. And the
S1: goal is not to avoid all the pain. The goal
S1: is actually to start growing some joy. So we learn
S1: to bounce back from the hard things. We learn to
S1: be able to return to joy from the big feelings.
S1: And that's that's the good news. That joy really does
S1: give us the strength to be the people that are
S1: really proud of who God made us to be. We're relational,
S1: we're kind, and we're resilient, and joy is just that
S1: fuel for that good stuff.
S2: Recently, I was reading the C.S. Lewis book. I think
S2: it was the last one that was published shortly after
S2: his death, and it was Letters to Malcolm, chiefly on prayer.
S2: And the quote is this joy is the serious business
S2: of heaven. And in that chapter he's talking about how
S2: frivolous some of the things that we can do here
S2: on earth are. But even the frivolity, even the little
S2: things that happen in our day, that spark us, to
S2: give us pleasure, that this is an inkling of what
S2: joy what heaven's going to be like and what joy
S2: really is. Marcus, what do you say about that? I
S2: think it's a great insight because, you know, Jesus said,
S2: I have come that your joy might be complete. And
S2: so there is something to heaven as a place of
S2: perfect relational life. You think about how great you know,
S2: the best parts of life are people, and the worst
S2: parts of life are people. And so heaven I look
S2: at as a place of where if you got rid
S2: of all the bad things about being with people, and
S2: it was just this relationally wonderful place, how much joy
S2: there would be, and there's joy with Jesus, and there's
S2: joy in the kingdom and all that. So I think that, uh, yeah,
S2: he's spot on, you know? Jesus. You know, when he
S2: went to summarize what he came for, he said, I've
S2: come that you might have life and have it abundantly.
S2: I've come that your joy might be complete. So it's
S2: clearly something that's core to the kingdom.
S4: We're talking about joy and the brain. What are the
S4: two essential brain developments?
S2: So the two main brain developments are what we call
S2: a joy center and joy pathways. And that is literally
S2: right behind your right eye is a part of your
S2: brain that grows as you do joy workouts, and this
S2: part of your brain grows, uh, your capacity to live
S2: with joy. And the bigger that it grows, the easier
S2: it is for you to regulate your emotions. And so
S2: joy is essential to developing resilience and the ability to
S2: bounce back from heavy things. So that's the first one,
S2: a big joy center. And we do that primarily through, uh,
S2: joy workouts of appreciation and rest. The second thing that
S2: has to develop our joy pathways and what a joy
S2: pathway is. You can think of it this way. When
S2: I go into something like depression or anger or shame,
S2: I go to the back of my brain. All the
S2: brain function goes to the back, whereas joy is in
S2: the front of my brain. So I need a pathway
S2: from each of those upsetting emotions. Back to the joy
S2: center in the front of my brain. So that's something
S2: that has to be developed. It doesn't exist when we're born.
S2: We aren't born with any of those pathways in place.
S2: They all have to be developed and they are developed
S2: relationally as someone is relationally present and engaged with us, um,
S2: while we recover from upsetting emotions. And if we miss that,
S2: which would be an a trauma, right? I didn't get that.
S2: Then I'm going to have to do some things later
S2: in life to be intentional about doing exercises to build
S2: those joy pathways, but those are the two things that
S2: have to develop.
S1: And it was really these developments that Marcus and I
S1: wanted to highlight with the book that, you know, there
S1: are things we can do to grow that Joy center. And,
S1: you know, this is a part of the brain that
S1: grows throughout your lifespan. So joy, you know, really does
S1: change our brain. And the joy pathways is also very helpful,
S1: because what that means is there's a way out of
S1: our upset, upsetting emotions to get back to joy. and
S1: so we can actually learn and practice ways of returning
S1: to joy from our from our upsetting emotions. And that's
S1: good news, that there there are things we can do.
S1: There are practices we can do to grow these abilities.
S1: And that really is life changing. When we can hold
S1: on to joy and get back to joy whenever we
S1: lose it.
S4: Now, you mentioned trauma there briefly in all of that,
S4: but what about the presence of trauma in a person's life?
S4: I mean, we know it. We know it's traumatic and
S4: that's what the word means. But how does that impact
S4: a person's ability to experience joy?
S2: Well, trauma can actually make it impossible for a person
S2: to experience joy at some level. And until it gets
S2: repaired and some new things are developed. So I think
S2: about a baby who's born in an orphanage that only
S2: takes care of their physical needs but isn't holding them,
S2: isn't comforting them, isn't responding to them when they cry
S2: right when you. If you're raised like that, that's trauma, right?
S2: You're they may not be abusing you, but it's a trauma.
S2: You are not getting what you need. And so what
S2: happens is that the joy center in your brain never grows.
S2: And it stays like a shriveled up little pea up there.
S2: And as a result, you go through life with virtually
S2: no capacity for joy. So trauma can keep that that
S2: joy center from ever developing. And when that happens, it's
S2: going to take a lot of extensive work and intentional
S2: work to begin doing the exercises needed to begin growing
S2: that part of our brain as, as either older children
S2: or adults. And so that's one way that trauma can
S2: affect our ability to experience, uh, to experience joy. And
S2: another one is that trauma tends to send us into
S2: those negative emotions in the back of our brain. And
S2: so if we never develop the joy pathways to recover
S2: from those, then we just get stuck in all of
S2: those upset emotions and they dominate our lives. And until
S2: those joy pathways get developed, it can be virtually impossible
S2: to experience joy.
S1: And that's why, you know, that's why we need the
S1: Gary's in the world, the people in the world that
S1: can help us and help us to work through some
S1: of those hard things. And that's why we need community
S1: as well, so that we we have a support team
S1: or we have people in our lives and relationships where
S1: people are glad to be with us. And that really
S1: does give us some capacity as we work through that
S1: hard stuff. And so it's helpful to understand these things
S1: because it's really helpful to have some wind in our sails,
S1: so to speak, as we're working through the hard stuff,
S1: just finding ways of belonging and ways to connect with
S1: other other human beings where we can experience some glad
S1: to be together. Joy will will go a long way.
S4: You know, many of the things that I deal with
S4: is trauma in a marriage. You know, where one one
S4: of them has been abusive or unfaithful or, you know,
S4: all sorts of things happen, of course, that can certainly
S4: erase the joy that may have been there in the
S4: earlier part of the marriage. So it's not just childhood trauma.
S4: Many times it's trauma in the midst of adulthood. Right?
S2: Yeah, that's a good point. And that is, uh, if
S2: I don't already have a well developed kind of joy
S2: system in my brain, and I go through trauma in
S2: my marriage, it's utterly overwhelming. Right. But if I do
S2: have a higher level joy system developed, my brain and
S2: I have other relational connections. What it does is it
S2: gives me the capacity to endure the trauma in my
S2: marriage and still act like myself and still be myself,
S2: and not turn into somebody else. So it's one of
S2: the things that goes together. So the idea, one of
S2: the things we would encourage people to do who are
S2: in a high trauma marriage is to work on growing
S2: their capacity for joy independently of the marriage, because anything
S2: they can do to grow their joy independently of the
S2: marriage is going to give them the capacity to deal
S2: with this harder stuff that they have to walk through.
S4: Yeah, I think that's a area that many of our
S4: listeners can identify with. Now there's an acrostic that you
S4: called sad. Sad sad sad. Talk about these six emotions
S4: and why they're so important.
S6: Uh, I'll.
S2: Jump in first. Chris, you can add on to, uh,
S2: so Chris has a book called the Joy switch. And
S2: you think about this, uh, switch on the side of
S2: your brain is an on off switch. And the idea
S2: is that when, uh, when I get triggered, my switch
S2: goes off, and when my switch goes off, it's either
S2: going to say it's either going to rob me of
S2: of emotional energy and I'm going to get really, like,
S2: just lose all the energy in my body. And when
S2: I get these low energy emotions, that's shame and, uh, sadness,
S2: disgust and despair. So out of sad, sad, the S
S2: and the D and the s and the D are
S2: shame and sadness, disgust and despair. And those are those
S2: low energy emotions that just make me want to hide.
S2: They make me not want to get out of bed.
S2: They're demotivating emotions. Or I can get a message from
S2: my from that part of my brain that says, oh,
S2: this is scary, this is bad, or this is scary,
S2: and if it says, this is scary, then I'm going
S2: to get these high energy fight or flight reactions. And
S2: so that's the anger and the anxiety or the being
S2: afraid idea. So that's what sad sad stands for, stands
S2: for the six core emotions that get triggered in us,
S2: and that we need a separate joy pathway back from
S2: each one of these emotions because it's a different path
S2: to return to joy from sadness than it is to
S2: return to joy from anger. And so some people are
S2: good at one emotion, but not necessarily good at another one.
S2: And so by separating them out, spelling them out, we
S2: kind of help people understand this is what needs to
S2: get developed.
S1: And it helps to understand this lens, because some of us,
S1: we tend to prefer high energy emotions. So we prefer
S1: being angry, opposed to sitting in hopeless despair or shame.
S1: And so when there's no pathway back to joy from
S1: these emotions, we can get stuck in the emotion or
S1: we sidetrack to a more manageable emotion. So you'll see somebody,
S1: maybe they're feeling shame, but they're really mad, but they're
S1: feeling shame. And so when you talk to them, they're
S1: really angry, but they're actually feeling some shame. And so
S1: the shame is harder to manage than the anger. So
S1: this is where we will gravitate toward the more manageable emotions.
S1: But the goal is really ultimately just to learn pathways
S1: back to joy from these emotions. So we don't get
S1: stuck or we don't have to sidetrack.
S4: Now give us those six again, because some of our
S4: listeners are saying, wait a minute now, what were those six?
S4: Give them, give them to us again.
S6: Okay.
S2: So sad. Sad. Let's just start with sadness. Sad. Sad
S2: starts with sadness and then anger and disgust. So that's
S2: the first add sadness, anger, disgust and then shame. And
S2: then A is like I'm afraid or anxious and then
S2: D is despair. Everything feels hopeless.
S4: Well, we're talking about joy and we're also talking about
S4: the realities of life that all of us experience. So
S4: let's say something happens to a listener as they're driving
S4: down the road and they experience fear or anxiety, and
S4: that can happen easily in today's world on the highway.
S4: Can you take our listeners through a calming exercise that
S4: they can do after they've experienced that kind of anxiety?
S6: Yeah.
S2: So what I would suggest to people is, uh, is
S2: that it's a little counterintuitive. The first thing you probably
S2: want to do there is actually exaggerate your anger a
S2: little bit, and that is to just acknowledge that person.
S2: Cut me off. I'm so mad. And you're like, I
S2: want to take a bazooka and blow them up right now.
S2: And it's like, just exaggerate it. It's like, well, you know,
S2: I'm not actually going to do that, but it's like
S2: you kind of got to let yourself feel how big
S2: this is and then go, but I don't want to
S2: stay here. So I'm going to take a deep breath.
S2: I'm going to be going to tense a muscle and
S2: relax it, take some more deep breaths and then I'm
S2: going to tell myself truth. How would it be like
S2: me to act? That is, you know, as a Christ follower,
S2: as somebody who loves God. Okay, let's act like myself
S2: here and not turn into a rage monster.
S5: Yeah.
S1: And Marcus said something really important there that I want
S1: to highlight. And that breathing step, uh, is just crucial
S1: to this process. Because the first thing to go when
S1: we become anxious or angry is our breathing. And so
S1: we also know, you know, about two thirds of us
S1: hold our breath when we pick up our phone. And
S1: so the breathing is, is the telltale sign that, oh,
S1: something's going on here. And so just remembering to take
S1: those deep breaths, remembering to quiet the body, quiet the mind,
S1: that alone can anchor us when we feel some of
S1: that anxiety or that anger coming on. Just take those
S1: deep breaths. There's always a reason that if you ever
S1: have to go into an ambulance, uh, they will tell
S1: you to take deep breaths because they know deep breathing
S1: is crucial to helping us stay anchored when big feelings
S1: start to arise.
S4: Maybe we should just suggest that at this moment, all
S4: of our listeners just take a deep breath. Yes, wherever
S4: you are, whatever's going on. Okay. Uh, I can identify
S4: with that. Uh, paint a picture for us of the
S4: impact that building these habits has on an individual and
S4: your relationships long term.
S1: Yeah. When I think of this question, I think of
S1: my wife and I. And so my we talk about
S1: my wife's story in the book and my story. But
S1: when I first met my wife, um, it was a
S1: good day for her if she got out of bed.
S1: And so she was on federal disability for anxiety and depression. And, uh,
S1: when she was 11, she was hospitalized for suicidal depression.
S1: So she had a lot of, a lot of fear,
S1: really kind of running her life. And so when she
S1: started to practice the habits here that that Marcus and
S1: I talk about in the book, one really stood out.
S1: And it was the quieting skill. And this quieting practice
S1: just transformed her life. It was a skill. It was
S1: a habit that was missing. And so as as Jen
S1: and I started to practice exercises, these calming exercises that
S1: Marcus and I are talking about, it was like watching
S1: a flower bloom and blossom. Like Jen just came alive.
S1: She started to grow joy. She started to rest and
S1: share appreciation and tell stories. And now if you met
S1: Jen today, you would never know that some of that
S1: hard stuff was was in her, you know, part of
S1: her story. Like she's teaching our sons these skills. She's
S1: teaching our sons how to quiet and rest. And so these,
S1: these this material has really transformed our lives and our marriage.
S1: And we practice this, this stuff as a family, around
S1: the meals, around the dinner table. We just try to
S1: practice this stuff every day. And we find that a
S1: little bit goes a long way. And so a little joy,
S1: a little rest, a few stories, you know, noticing those,
S1: those toxic thoughts that come into the mind just a
S1: little bit goes a long way. And it's really just
S1: transformed our lives. And I just can't imagine life without,
S1: you know, being able to use this material and practice
S1: these habits. It's really changed everything.
S7: Yeah.
S4: Well, Marcus, Chris has given us, uh, his own personal
S4: story of how this has impacted his own life and
S4: his relationship with his wife. So let's say that a
S4: person is married to a spouse who exhibits no joy
S4: or very little joy. Is there anything that the spouse
S4: can do to help their mate at this juncture? You know,
S4: they don't have your background. They're just listening to us today.
S4: Hopefully they're going to buy the book, but what would
S4: you suggest to that person?
S6: Um, you know.
S2: That's a good question. If I were going to give
S2: them one thing to do, it would be validation. And
S2: validation is where I, I acknowledge the emotion that the
S2: other person is having, even if I don't agree that
S2: they should be feeling it. And so what I'm doing
S2: is I'm going to accurately name the emotion my spouse
S2: is in fact feeling, and just how big it is
S2: for them. And try to get your your spouse nodding
S2: their head in agreement like, yeah, you see me, you
S2: see where I'm at? That's correct. There's a couple of
S2: things we got to avoid. Number one, we have to
S2: avoid using the word but. So if you're going to
S2: say something to your spouse like, I really appreciate you,
S2: the only thing that's going to ruin that is, like,
S2: I really appreciate when you do this, but I wish
S2: you'd do it more often. Right? I really appreciate, you know,
S2: when you take care of me in this way. But
S2: you know you don't. So we say there's one rule
S2: when it comes to sharing appreciation with your spouse. And
S2: that's no buts. So if you validate the emotion they're
S2: actually at and make it a habit to try to
S2: find a way to share appreciation with them without a
S2: butt in it several times a day. Uh, then the
S2: goal here is to shrink the joy gap in the
S2: marriage so that there is less and less time passing
S2: between moments where you at least put out a bid
S2: for for joy to be shared. Um, and let that
S2: that work. But I would start with validation and then
S2: just the practice of appreciation. Uh, we do have a
S2: whole book on this, right? And that is the four
S2: habits of joy filled marriages that have a ton of, uh,
S2: exercises and suggestions on this.
S1: And that's really why Marcus and I wanted the exercises
S1: so that people could do something to to practice these
S1: habits and then notice the difference. And so just sitting down,
S1: you know, taking five, ten, 15 minutes to just practice
S1: an exercise, practice the calming, practice the appreciation and so forth.
S1: That's the hope that as we practice these things, they
S1: become more like reflex. And we'll start doing them without
S1: having to use a lot of energy or think about it.
S4: Well, I can certainly see how this could be helpful
S4: to someone who's in a situation like that. Does the
S4: Bible's view of joy line up with the things that
S4: you have discovered about the brain?
S6: Yeah, that's.
S2: A fair question, right? You know, what does the Bible
S2: say about this? And so my you know, my background
S2: is is I was an Old Testament teacher for several years.
S2: I taught systematic theology, got a, you know, strong background
S2: of this. And and what you'll find is that the
S2: word joy in the Bible is often what we would
S2: call happiness. It's like a reactive response to, hey, we
S2: won the battle, there's joy. Or oh, the crop was great,
S2: there's joy. Or, you know, my, my child's getting married.
S2: There's joy. So there is this sense of I'm happy
S2: because of the of what is happening right now. but
S2: it it goes deeper than that to then that there
S2: are places where you get to ideas like Jeremiah saying,
S2: the joy of the Lord is my strength, or this
S2: blessing of Aaron every day may the the face of
S2: Yahweh shine upon you. You're like, well, what is a
S2: shining face? This is just as glowing, ethereal, otherworldly face.
S2: Or is it a face that's beaming because he's happy
S2: to see you and we're like this blessing on on
S2: the people that you're going to have peace because God's
S2: face is looking at you, and he's happy to see
S2: you and he's lit up with joy. So we find
S2: that that's exactly spot on with what neuroscience is teaching us,
S2: and that is that what we're really craving is the
S2: presence of someone happy to see us. And I find
S2: that in a lot of us, in our walk with God,
S2: one of the deepest obstacles we have to overcome is
S2: that we don't feel joy around him. We're not convinced
S2: he's really happy to see us, and it makes it
S2: very hard, right, to be a Christian. If you're not
S2: quite sure God really likes you. And so it's a
S2: big deal. Joy is directly connected to, you know, what
S2: the Bible puts right at the center of things.
S1: And my favorite, you know, one of my favorite examples
S1: in the New Testament is in Hebrews, where for the
S1: for the joy set before him, Jesus endured the cross.
S1: And so to understand that joy is a relationship. So
S1: I always tell people for you he endured the cross,
S1: despising its shame. And so it's, you know, joy is
S1: a relationship. And this is a this is a hopeful
S1: word that we have a God who's glad to be
S1: with his people. The good Shepherd is glad to be
S1: with the sheep. And that's a beautiful picture.
S7: Yeah.
S2: Let me jump in before we end here, because I
S2: see as I'm going through the book and these four habits,
S2: I see a correlation between what Gary's written about and
S2: the love languages and joy. Marcus, do you agree with that?
S6: Yeah.
S2: In fact, his book was one of the inspirations for
S2: what we're doing, and that is we wanted to come
S2: up with a, you know, the core illustration and love
S2: language is this idea that we got a love tank,
S2: and when our love tank is low, the gears grind.
S2: We don't act like ourselves. And this is a very
S2: similar concept. And that is if our joy levels drop
S2: too low, our our resilience goes away and the lower
S2: our joy levels are, the less resilience we have, the
S2: easier it is for us to snap right and turn
S2: into somebody we don't want to be, and to act
S2: like somebody we are ashamed of later. And so it's
S2: very similar. The patterning in the book is very similar,
S2: and it was definitely an inspiration to what we wrote.
S4: Well, Marcus and Chris, let me thank you for being
S4: with us today and also for taking time to write
S4: this book. And I do hope that many of our
S4: listeners are going to get it, because I can tell
S4: you just from my own experience in the counseling office,
S4: it's greatly needed in this day. So thanks for being
S4: with us.
S1: Thank you for having us. It's been great.
S2: Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Once again, the title of
S2: our featured resource is The Four Habits of Joy Filled People.
S2: 15 minute brain science hacks to a more connected and
S2: satisfying life. Go to building relationships us to find out more. Again,
S2: building relationships.us and to take the 28 day Joy challenge.
S2: Go to four habits.org. Next week it's a summer best
S2: of conversation about father wounds. Don't miss a discussion with
S2: Kia Stevens.
S3: Our thanks to Janice backing and Steve Wick for their
S3: production work on today's program. Building relationships with Doctor Gary
S3: Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with
S3: Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.