1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,200 S1: Today at the radio backyard fence. Something special for you. 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,760 S1: Something historic. A man of words. A man who knows 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,960 S1: the power of a tale well told. Has taken up 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,440 S1: the mantle of Arthur. He's visited the Round Table. He's 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,480 S1: caught a vision of the Grail, and his multi-volume epic 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,480 S1: poem about such things has begun. And today, on Chris 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,920 S1: Fabry Live, I am so excited. We're going to talk 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,720 S1: with author, poet and scholar Malcolm Guyot, and our featured 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,480 S1: resource is the long awaited first book in this epic series. 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,920 S1: It's titled Galahad and the Grail. You go to Chris 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,800 S1: Fabry live.org. You can click through and find out more. 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,680 S1: Our program today is recorded. We will not be taking 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,599 S1: your calls, but let me thank Ryan McConaughey doing all 14 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,200 S1: things technical. Tricia is our producer. And let me thank 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,000 S1: those of you who have supported us in this month 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,580 S1: of April here on the last day of April, We 17 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:04,140 S1: cannot have these conversations without you. Somebody is going to 18 00:01:04,140 --> 00:01:08,820 S1: have their imagination opened today and your gift is going 19 00:01:08,860 --> 00:01:12,060 S1: to make that possible. So thank you for your support. 20 00:01:12,060 --> 00:01:15,340 S1: All this month I've been telling you about Christopher Ashe's book, 21 00:01:15,340 --> 00:01:20,459 S1: Not Old, not young, not done. Boy, do I, I 22 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:24,420 S1: identify with this following Jesus in your 50s and 60s 23 00:01:24,420 --> 00:01:26,700 S1: if that is you, if you feel like you know 24 00:01:26,740 --> 00:01:29,580 S1: I'm not. I'm not old yet, but I'm not young. 25 00:01:29,580 --> 00:01:32,620 S1: But does God have anything else for me to do? 26 00:01:32,620 --> 00:01:36,780 S1: This is a such a practical book. Today's the last day. 27 00:01:36,780 --> 00:01:38,660 S1: It is the last day. Would you call us with 28 00:01:38,660 --> 00:01:49,020 S1: a gift? 86695538669532279. Or go to Chris Fabry live.org and 29 00:01:49,020 --> 00:01:51,300 S1: give a gift today. And thank you for your support 30 00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:56,620 S1: of the Radio Backyard fence. I normally don't read real 31 00:01:56,620 --> 00:02:00,850 S1: long Uh, introductions for guests I like to get to, 32 00:02:00,890 --> 00:02:03,250 S1: but I I've for Malcolm, I got to do this. 33 00:02:03,250 --> 00:02:06,490 S1: I've got to read at least something. Malcolm Guidi is 34 00:02:06,490 --> 00:02:10,130 S1: a poet. Following the tradition of Samuel Taylor Coleridge and 35 00:02:10,130 --> 00:02:14,290 S1: George Herbert, a priest in the tradition of Lancelot Andrews 36 00:02:14,290 --> 00:02:17,650 S1: and a scholar and literary critic in the tradition of C.S. 37 00:02:17,650 --> 00:02:22,730 S1: Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, a Girton College fellow at Cambridge University, 38 00:02:22,930 --> 00:02:26,130 S1: he lectures widely in the UK and North America on 39 00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:29,650 S1: theology and literature, and he is the author of several 40 00:02:29,650 --> 00:02:33,930 S1: works of nonfiction and poetry, including, but not limited to, 41 00:02:33,970 --> 00:02:38,089 S1: sounding the seasons 70 sonnets for the Christian Year, which 42 00:02:38,090 --> 00:02:41,329 S1: is now in its 10th printing, as well as the 43 00:02:41,370 --> 00:02:46,730 S1: Singing Bowl, Collected Poems, Parable and Paradox Mariner A Voyage 44 00:02:46,730 --> 00:02:52,369 S1: with Samuel Taylor Coleridge, After Prayer, The Word Within the 45 00:02:52,370 --> 00:02:57,230 S1: Words and Lifting the Veil, featured resource today. Book one 46 00:02:57,230 --> 00:03:01,630 S1: in the series Merlin's Isle and Arthurian. It's titled Galahad 47 00:03:01,630 --> 00:03:05,190 S1: and the Grail. Malcolm Gate, welcome back to the program. 48 00:03:05,190 --> 00:03:06,030 S1: How are you doing today? 49 00:03:06,070 --> 00:03:09,190 S2: Hi. It's nice to speak to you. I'm I'm well, 50 00:03:09,190 --> 00:03:12,470 S2: I'm speaking to you from my little corner in one 51 00:03:12,470 --> 00:03:18,070 S2: of the shires of England in the Norfolk. Um, and, uh, yeah, 52 00:03:18,110 --> 00:03:20,350 S2: we're just getting a little bit of April sun out there, 53 00:03:20,350 --> 00:03:22,430 S2: so it's good to be speaking to you. 54 00:03:22,830 --> 00:03:26,670 S1: Is this where you record a spell in the library 55 00:03:26,669 --> 00:03:27,750 S1: that I've seen on YouTube? 56 00:03:27,790 --> 00:03:29,709 S2: Yeah. I am sitting at the desk that you would 57 00:03:29,710 --> 00:03:32,390 S2: see as you come into that room. I'm surrounded by 58 00:03:32,389 --> 00:03:35,990 S2: the great comfort in the sense of valued long term 59 00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:40,270 S2: friendships of all the old books on my shelves. Um, 60 00:03:40,270 --> 00:03:43,110 S2: so I feel very at home in this place. I 61 00:03:43,150 --> 00:03:44,869 S2: kind of miss it when I'm on the road. 62 00:03:45,030 --> 00:03:47,150 S1: What does that do to you when you walk in 63 00:03:47,190 --> 00:03:50,869 S1: there and you see all those volumes? What do those books, 64 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:53,510 S1: the backs of those books that you see, what does 65 00:03:53,510 --> 00:03:54,270 S1: that do to you? 66 00:03:54,470 --> 00:03:57,580 S2: Well, you know, I love them, you know, and I've 67 00:03:57,580 --> 00:03:59,740 S2: acquired them over a lifetime. So a lot of them 68 00:03:59,740 --> 00:04:01,940 S2: have got kind of stories to tell about, you know, 69 00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:03,900 S2: I saved up a lot of money as a student 70 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:06,180 S2: to buy this one book because it had such a 71 00:04:06,180 --> 00:04:08,820 S2: beautiful binding. I'm a bit of a bibliophile. I mean, 72 00:04:08,860 --> 00:04:11,500 S2: I like the contents most, of course, but I also 73 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:15,340 S2: like the, you know, the beautiful crafting of a book. Um, 74 00:04:15,340 --> 00:04:17,180 S2: but what I really like is that, I mean, to 75 00:04:17,180 --> 00:04:19,060 S2: be honest, as well as lots of books, there are 76 00:04:19,060 --> 00:04:21,180 S2: books all over the place. There are books piled up 77 00:04:21,180 --> 00:04:23,900 S2: on my desk, there are books on my night table 78 00:04:23,940 --> 00:04:26,700 S2: beside my chair, and sometimes one is randomly put on 79 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:29,260 S2: top of another one. And I kind of imagine that 80 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:32,580 S2: when I'm not in the room, the books are having 81 00:04:32,620 --> 00:04:36,700 S2: kind of conversations with each other. And it's like, so 82 00:04:36,740 --> 00:04:41,339 S2: you know, John Donne is talking to Seamus Heaney because 83 00:04:41,339 --> 00:04:43,539 S2: they happen to be next to each other, you know? 84 00:04:43,580 --> 00:04:47,020 S2: And of course, the books do have conversations in my head. 85 00:04:47,060 --> 00:04:49,419 S2: I mean, when I was a kid and I first 86 00:04:49,420 --> 00:04:52,020 S2: discovered C.S. Lewis and loved the Narnia, and then I 87 00:04:52,020 --> 00:04:55,760 S2: got into The Hobbit, I kind of just immediately imagined 88 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,080 S2: in my head conversations between Tolkien and Lewis, and I 89 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,840 S2: had no idea that they even lived at the same time, 90 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,279 S2: let alone knew each other. So I was really thrilled 91 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,760 S2: when I discovered that, that these authors who who both 92 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,440 S2: meant something to me, who did, who, you know, did 93 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,760 S2: things differently, but yet with a kind of common vision, 94 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,880 S2: you know? So that's what that's what books are for. 95 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,320 S2: They're not just to be read in isolation. They're, they're 96 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,279 S2: always each speaking to the other. 97 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,159 S1: When did you realize how old were you when you 98 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,159 S1: realized how captivated you were with words? 99 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,960 S2: Well, I was I was very fortunate to grow up 100 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,479 S2: in a household where, I mean, both my parents loved books. 101 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,520 S2: There were books in the household, but actually, before booked, 102 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,520 S2: before I could read, I was kind of exposed to 103 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,240 S2: to really wonderful words and poetry because my mother, my 104 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,419 S2: she's a Scotswoman had an immense fund of poetry, just, 105 00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:57,220 S2: you know, known by heart in her. And she would 106 00:05:57,220 --> 00:05:59,740 S2: just naturally recite bits of it, you know, if it, 107 00:05:59,779 --> 00:06:03,820 S2: you know, if, if we were looking at a sunset together, 108 00:06:04,220 --> 00:06:05,900 S2: you know, she would sort of put her arm around 109 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:09,100 S2: me and then say, out beyond the sunset could I 110 00:06:09,140 --> 00:06:12,979 S2: but find the way is a sleepy blue lagoon that 111 00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:16,380 S2: widens to a bay. And there's the blessed city. Or 112 00:06:16,380 --> 00:06:18,980 S2: so the sailors say. You know what you know. But 113 00:06:18,980 --> 00:06:22,099 S2: it was beautiful. So I kind of got poetry before 114 00:06:22,100 --> 00:06:25,180 S2: I even knew what it was. Um, and of course 115 00:06:25,180 --> 00:06:28,940 S2: it was my mother, likewise, who first told me the 116 00:06:28,940 --> 00:06:31,419 S2: stories of King Arthur that I've loved all my life. 117 00:06:31,420 --> 00:06:34,740 S2: And she was a great storyteller and she didn't hold back. 118 00:06:34,779 --> 00:06:39,260 S2: She didn't give me a kind of sanitized version of things. 119 00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:41,540 S2: She gave me the real deal, you know, which I'm 120 00:06:41,540 --> 00:06:42,460 S2: very grateful for. 121 00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:47,980 S1: You just sparked a memory for me because my I 122 00:06:48,020 --> 00:06:50,020 S1: grew up in the hills of West Virginia, which is 123 00:06:50,020 --> 00:06:52,170 S1: far from where you are, but it was the same 124 00:06:52,170 --> 00:06:55,130 S1: thing for me. My mother. By the shores of Gitche 125 00:06:55,130 --> 00:06:57,330 S1: Gumee by the shining big sea. Water. 126 00:06:57,690 --> 00:06:58,130 S2: Water. 127 00:06:58,410 --> 00:07:02,370 S1: You would just come out of her. That's great. And she. Yeah. 128 00:07:02,410 --> 00:07:05,250 S1: And she had very little education. But she knew the 129 00:07:05,250 --> 00:07:08,770 S1: power of poetry. And she. 130 00:07:08,890 --> 00:07:10,810 S2: That's a great thing a mother can do. You know, 131 00:07:10,850 --> 00:07:13,290 S2: we drink in language with our mother's milk. You know, 132 00:07:13,330 --> 00:07:16,410 S2: we those first you know, I mean, I think one 133 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:18,450 S2: of the reasons why I like meter as a poetry 134 00:07:18,450 --> 00:07:21,330 S2: also like music is we hear this one, the rhythm 135 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:23,490 S2: of a lot of English poetry is kind of the 136 00:07:23,490 --> 00:07:26,570 S2: I am, it's dum de dum. And that's actually the 137 00:07:26,570 --> 00:07:30,290 S2: sound of your mother's heartbeat, who, as you heard it 138 00:07:30,290 --> 00:07:32,570 S2: in the womb, before you even had the ears to hear. 139 00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:36,010 S2: You know? So yeah, I'm glad she gave you the 140 00:07:36,250 --> 00:07:38,650 S2: the Hiawatha there. That was a poem that also my 141 00:07:38,650 --> 00:07:42,970 S2: mother regaled me with. Mhm. Um, so and that's a 142 00:07:42,970 --> 00:07:45,890 S2: great rhythm. That's not the iambic bub, bub bub bub 143 00:07:45,890 --> 00:07:48,370 S2: bub bub. It's a wonderful, wonderful rhythm. 144 00:07:48,930 --> 00:07:52,710 S1: Okay, so the fairy tales. I think it was Bettelheim 145 00:07:52,710 --> 00:07:57,270 S1: who said these fairy tales prepare children for what's ahead. 146 00:07:57,310 --> 00:08:00,350 S1: They give you a structure, they give you a. You 147 00:08:00,390 --> 00:08:04,230 S1: can anticipate the wolf and you can anticipate. You know, 148 00:08:04,270 --> 00:08:06,390 S1: who's going to help you or if nobody's going to 149 00:08:06,390 --> 00:08:08,510 S1: come to help you. Do you agree with that? 150 00:08:09,270 --> 00:08:12,910 S2: Yeah, I do. I mean, some people I mean, there's 151 00:08:12,950 --> 00:08:15,990 S2: a there's a famous defense. You quoted a very good 152 00:08:15,990 --> 00:08:19,030 S2: one there. But there's a similar defense of poetry from G.K. 153 00:08:19,030 --> 00:08:24,430 S2: Chesterton of children's fairy stories. And he says somewhere that, oh, 154 00:08:25,190 --> 00:08:29,910 S2: sensitive people are saying you shouldn't tell children's stories about 155 00:08:29,910 --> 00:08:34,230 S2: giants because they might be frightened. And Chesterton replies, don't 156 00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:36,950 S2: be ridiculous. Children are already know about giants because they 157 00:08:36,950 --> 00:08:39,110 S2: have to live in the world of adults, and children 158 00:08:39,110 --> 00:08:42,230 S2: can make up more bogies than you can imagine, you know? 159 00:08:42,309 --> 00:08:44,870 S2: But they do need to know that there is Jack 160 00:08:44,910 --> 00:08:48,510 S2: the giant killer. And if there's if there are dragons 161 00:08:48,510 --> 00:08:50,290 S2: in the world, they need to know that there are 162 00:08:50,290 --> 00:08:52,930 S2: knights in shining armor that can go out to encounter them. 163 00:08:52,929 --> 00:08:54,170 S2: That's what you're telling them? 164 00:08:54,690 --> 00:08:58,170 S1: Yes. Malcolm Gate is with us today. If you go 165 00:08:58,170 --> 00:09:01,530 S1: to Chris Fabry live.org, click through today's information. You will 166 00:09:01,530 --> 00:09:05,210 S1: see book one in this series. That's going to be 167 00:09:05,210 --> 00:09:07,050 S1: four books. I want to talk with him about that. 168 00:09:07,050 --> 00:09:09,890 S1: I've got a bunch of questions we are recording today, 169 00:09:09,890 --> 00:09:12,410 S1: so don't call us, but go to the website, Chris 170 00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:18,689 S1: Fabry live.org. You'll see the beautiful book, Galahad and the Grail. 171 00:09:19,450 --> 00:09:34,130 S1: Go to chris.org. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. It 172 00:09:34,130 --> 00:09:37,770 S1: is such a pleasure and a privilege to have Malcolm 173 00:09:37,770 --> 00:09:42,410 S1: Gate with us today on Chris Fabry live programs recorded 174 00:09:42,570 --> 00:09:45,490 S1: Galahad and the Grail is the first book, and this 175 00:09:45,490 --> 00:09:49,560 S1: is an epic poem in a four book series, and 176 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,400 S1: we're going to talk about that. I want to ask you, 177 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,160 S1: you mentioned Lewis, and his mother was very important to him, 178 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,360 S1: but there was a lot of pain there because he 179 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,280 S1: lost his mother when he was a young boy. 180 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:02,760 S2: He was nine. Yeah. 181 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,000 S1: You but your mother was was right there did is 182 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,040 S1: does does the poetry and does do the words spring 183 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,520 S1: partly from the pain of life. Have you seen that? 184 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,760 S2: Yeah, I, I think if poetry is going to be 185 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,640 S2: going to be good, if it's going to be something 186 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,880 S2: better than the just sentiment on the inside of a 187 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,679 S2: hallmark greeting card, then it has to deal with pain 188 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,280 S2: and sorrow as well as joy and beauty, because that's 189 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,240 S2: the nature of our fallen life. But I think it 190 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,440 S2: must never, as it were, capitulate to the pain. It's 191 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,640 S2: always about yearning and straining through it. But I think 192 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:50,300 S2: there's no question that suffering, and particularly the suffering of grief, 193 00:10:51,179 --> 00:10:53,580 S2: because grief is a form of love and love is 194 00:10:53,580 --> 00:10:56,860 S2: always a deepening and enriching thing. Even though grief is 195 00:10:56,860 --> 00:10:59,900 S2: a painful form of love, it's love in absence. Um, 196 00:10:59,940 --> 00:11:05,340 S2: but nevertheless, I think experience of grief deepens. Uh, a poet, 197 00:11:05,420 --> 00:11:10,260 S2: I think it certainly deepened. Um, C.S. Lewis and, um, 198 00:11:11,940 --> 00:11:15,140 S2: you know, informed him, I mean, I'm very fortunate in that, 199 00:11:15,179 --> 00:11:17,740 S2: in that, um, yeah, the poetry side of my life 200 00:11:17,740 --> 00:11:20,460 S2: comes down from my mother, but also from my grandmother 201 00:11:20,460 --> 00:11:22,459 S2: who was a published poet, who was a poet in 202 00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:28,179 S2: Scotland and, and wrote, um, she wrote a wonderful book 203 00:11:28,179 --> 00:11:30,940 S2: called The Legendary of Saint Mungo, which is about Mungo 204 00:11:30,940 --> 00:11:34,660 S2: or Kentigern and Saint Columba. And long before Celtic Christianity 205 00:11:34,660 --> 00:11:37,380 S2: was a thing, you know, she, she was doing this 206 00:11:37,380 --> 00:11:40,980 S2: beautiful stuff and kind of wooing people towards the gospel 207 00:11:41,020 --> 00:11:44,100 S2: by the sheer beauty of her writing. So I feel 208 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:50,450 S2: like I'm inheriting a tradition there. But the great stories, 209 00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:55,450 S2: the really great stories are not just a Sunday school picnic. 210 00:11:55,490 --> 00:12:01,050 S2: You know, they involve real peril, real danger, um, real suffering. 211 00:12:01,050 --> 00:12:06,209 S2: And they, they, they involve some point of, of spiritual 212 00:12:06,210 --> 00:12:08,850 S2: challenge where you could break, but you don't and you 213 00:12:08,850 --> 00:12:12,089 S2: go forward. I mean, that's true of, you know, Frodo 214 00:12:12,090 --> 00:12:15,690 S2: and Sam limping across the plains of Gorgoroth towards the 215 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:17,570 S2: crack of Mount Doom. You know, we will have to 216 00:12:17,570 --> 00:12:20,770 S2: do without hope. We're just going to keep going. And 217 00:12:20,770 --> 00:12:24,050 S2: it's true of many passages in the great cycle of stories. 218 00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:27,929 S2: All the Arthur stories used to be the medieval writers 219 00:12:27,929 --> 00:12:30,730 S2: referred to that whole cycle of stories as what they 220 00:12:30,730 --> 00:12:34,090 S2: called the matter of Britain matter in the sense of 221 00:12:34,090 --> 00:12:37,650 S2: subject matter, but also in the sense of something that matters, 222 00:12:37,650 --> 00:12:41,930 S2: something that's important. So they thought there were three subjects 223 00:12:41,929 --> 00:12:46,230 S2: worthy of epic poetry the matter of Troy with the 224 00:12:46,230 --> 00:12:48,390 S2: whole Trojan War thing, and obviously that had been pretty 225 00:12:48,390 --> 00:12:52,510 S2: well covered by Homer and then Virgil. There was the 226 00:12:52,510 --> 00:12:55,550 S2: matter of Gaul, which were all the stories around Charlemagne, 227 00:12:55,550 --> 00:12:58,550 S2: and which various French poets were covering. And then there 228 00:12:58,550 --> 00:13:02,790 S2: was the matter of Britain, which was the entire cycle 229 00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:06,350 S2: of the Arthur stories, but especially the stories of the 230 00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:12,790 S2: Holy Grail, uh, and um various, you know, they, the 231 00:13:12,790 --> 00:13:16,150 S2: first poets, the very first references to it are none 232 00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:18,590 S2: of them are in English. They're in Welsh, you know, 233 00:13:18,630 --> 00:13:20,990 S2: because that was the language of Britain before the Anglo 234 00:13:20,990 --> 00:13:24,550 S2: Saxons arrived. And then there are things in Latin, and 235 00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:27,670 S2: there are things in French and Middle High German, and 236 00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:29,510 S2: the English don't get in on the act, really, until 237 00:13:29,550 --> 00:13:32,070 S2: about the 13th or 14th century. But by that time 238 00:13:32,070 --> 00:13:35,470 S2: they realized there's something really worth telling here. And every, 239 00:13:36,590 --> 00:13:39,150 S2: every hundred years or so, it needs to be taken 240 00:13:39,150 --> 00:13:42,429 S2: up and looked at and retold for a new generation. 241 00:13:43,130 --> 00:13:45,570 S2: I do it in the conviction that all these stories 242 00:13:45,570 --> 00:13:48,090 S2: are older and wiser than we are, and that they. 243 00:13:48,090 --> 00:13:51,090 S2: They know things we don't and that we need to know. 244 00:13:51,610 --> 00:13:54,730 S2: And they have something different to teach each generation. They 245 00:13:54,730 --> 00:13:56,490 S2: point to what we lack, and they give us a 246 00:13:56,490 --> 00:14:00,890 S2: glimmering of how we might find it. And chivalry and courtesy. 247 00:14:01,850 --> 00:14:04,490 S1: It's been a couple of hundred years since someone has 248 00:14:04,490 --> 00:14:06,490 S1: tried to do what you're trying to do. 249 00:14:06,610 --> 00:14:09,890 S2: Certainly on this scale, it's the last time, like a, 250 00:14:10,210 --> 00:14:12,689 S2: you know, there's four volumes, but each volume has three books. 251 00:14:12,690 --> 00:14:14,530 S2: The last time there was a sort of 12 book, 252 00:14:14,570 --> 00:14:18,810 S2: Arthurian epic was in the mid 19th century, when the 253 00:14:18,809 --> 00:14:22,290 S2: great poet Alfred Lord Tennyson did it in a sequence 254 00:14:22,290 --> 00:14:24,410 S2: called The Idols of the King. So I figured it 255 00:14:24,410 --> 00:14:24,970 S2: was time. 256 00:14:26,650 --> 00:14:30,410 S1: Yes, but there's also, as I mentioned, the. You've picked 257 00:14:30,410 --> 00:14:35,570 S1: up the mantle. There must be a. A weight of 258 00:14:36,010 --> 00:14:39,490 S1: that is on your shoulders as you come to this, right? 259 00:14:39,930 --> 00:14:42,280 S2: Oh, yeah. You have to treat this with with awe 260 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,880 S2: and respect, you have to develop it. There isn't a 261 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,400 S2: single authorized version of Arthur. There are lots of different 262 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,480 S2: medieval sources and different ways different poets have told the tale, 263 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,640 S2: but a lot of them are collected together. There is 264 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,760 S2: a kind of ideal late medieval sourcebook, which is Thomas 265 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,640 S2: Malory's Morte d'Arthur, which was published towards the end of 266 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:08,600 S2: the 15th century and written very much, you know, hoping 267 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,000 S2: to that the memory of Arthur in his time would 268 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,440 S2: help and change the nation. So you have these sources 269 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,240 S2: to draw on, and there is a weight of responsibility. 270 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,520 S2: I mean, so great. And because I love these stories 271 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,200 S2: so much, and because I thought it was so important 272 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,280 S2: that they should be told again. To be honest, I 273 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,400 S2: kept putting it off. You know, I just didn't feel 274 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,000 S2: ready for it. I didn't feel worthy of it. I 275 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,440 S2: wasn't sure which poetic form to use. And, you know, 276 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,840 S2: the years and then the decades were going by. And 277 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,360 S2: there came a point where I suddenly thought, you know, 278 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,160 S2: I need to step up to the plate here. I 279 00:15:40,260 --> 00:15:42,100 S2: need to dare to do it. I know it's difficult. 280 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:43,860 S2: I'm going right on the end of a literary limb here. 281 00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:45,580 S2: Nobody's done it in pitch. But I thought if I 282 00:15:45,620 --> 00:15:47,780 S2: don't do it, nobody will. And I think I might 283 00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:51,060 S2: be ideally placed to do it because I've known and 284 00:15:51,060 --> 00:15:54,420 S2: loved the stories for so long, because I've spent decades 285 00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:59,700 S2: mastering different poetic forms, and I've published five collections of 286 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:02,940 S2: shorter poems of lyric poems, which, if you like, is 287 00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:06,740 S2: a kind of is a kind of apprenticeship. And I'm 288 00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:11,420 S2: in my 60s, so I figured, I have to do 289 00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:14,180 S2: this now. And, you know, there's a little poem at 290 00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:18,060 S2: the beginning of volume one of the Galahad called Take 291 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:21,580 S2: Up the Tail, which tells a story about my going 292 00:16:21,580 --> 00:16:25,060 S2: out for a walk on a midsummer morning and hearing 293 00:16:25,060 --> 00:16:27,700 S2: the muse say, now you've got to do it. And 294 00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:30,300 S2: it keeps saying to me, poet, take up the tail. 295 00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:33,100 S2: And some people think that I'm being that this is 296 00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:36,860 S2: metaphorical or poeticism, but actually it's kind of pretty close 297 00:16:36,860 --> 00:16:38,540 S2: to what what really happened. 298 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,440 S1: Uh, so when I read that prelude, I heard Shades 299 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,920 S1: of Bunyan there and Pilgrim as I walked out one morning. 300 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,440 S2: One morning. Yeah. Of course, lots of folk songs and 301 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,920 S2: folk ballads begin with that. But yes, the Bunyan story 302 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,440 S2: is really important. I mean, Bunyan's writing a direct allegory, 303 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,560 S2: but to be honest, all the earlier stories, and particularly 304 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:06,680 S2: the story of the the Grail pilgrimage, have an allegorical 305 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,200 S2: or symbolic nature. They're always about more than their surface. 306 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,080 S2: There's a sense in which, just as we identify with 307 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,480 S2: Pilgrim and we realize that we too have been in 308 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,679 S2: the Slough of Despond, and we too have to fight 309 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,080 S2: the giant despair. And we too might be might be 310 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,240 S2: waylaid by Vanity Fair. You know, we we we know 311 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,880 S2: this is about us as well as about him. But 312 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,800 S2: that's true of these ancient stories as well, that when 313 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,880 S2: you follow Galahad and Lancelot, and particularly Galahad and Lancelot 314 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,150 S2: as Contrast you can identify at different times with one 315 00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:42,350 S2: or the other, depending where you are in your own 316 00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:46,149 S2: stage of life. Then you learn stuff about life, about 317 00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:48,990 S2: how to live, about how to make choices. I mean, 318 00:17:49,070 --> 00:17:52,990 S2: the great poet, um, Philip Sidney, who wrote a 16th 319 00:17:52,990 --> 00:17:56,270 S2: century defense of poetry, said that poetry was had to 320 00:17:56,270 --> 00:18:00,630 S2: do two things. He said poetry should delight and instruct. 321 00:18:01,670 --> 00:18:04,230 S2: That it should be beautiful and delightful and a pleasure 322 00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:06,950 S2: to read. But you should be getting something solid from 323 00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:10,990 S2: it that helps. I'm very happy with any comparison with 324 00:18:10,990 --> 00:18:16,310 S2: with with Bunyan. Um, you know, Kipling's got a wonderful 325 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:22,230 S2: little quatrain, actually, in ballad style about, um, Bunyan, where 326 00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:26,510 S2: he says, uh, a tinker out of Bedford, a soldier 327 00:18:26,550 --> 00:18:32,109 S2: oft inquired a private under Fairfax, a minister of God. MM. 328 00:18:32,910 --> 00:18:35,230 S1: Okay. Do you have the book that can you read 329 00:18:35,230 --> 00:18:41,129 S1: the first? three little stanzas that you begin the prelude with. 330 00:18:41,170 --> 00:18:42,810 S2: Of the prelude? Sure. Yeah. 331 00:18:42,970 --> 00:18:43,930 S1: Please do that. 332 00:18:44,650 --> 00:18:48,850 S2: Okay. As I walked out one morning. All in the soft, 333 00:18:48,850 --> 00:18:53,010 S2: fine rain. It seemed as though a silver veil was 334 00:18:53,010 --> 00:18:57,010 S2: shining over hill and vale. As though some lovely long 335 00:18:57,010 --> 00:19:01,250 S2: lost spell had made all new again. And through that 336 00:19:01,250 --> 00:19:04,770 S2: shimmer in the air. I seemed to hear a sound. 337 00:19:05,210 --> 00:19:08,729 S2: As though a distant horn were blown in some lost 338 00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:11,969 S2: land that I had known. That seemed to speak from 339 00:19:11,970 --> 00:19:16,169 S2: tree and stone. An echo all around. And with the 340 00:19:16,170 --> 00:19:21,369 S2: music came these words. Poet. Take up the tale. Take 341 00:19:21,369 --> 00:19:25,450 S2: up the tale. This land still keeps. In earth and water. 342 00:19:25,450 --> 00:19:31,210 S2: Magic sleeps. The dryad sighs. The Naiad weeps. But you 343 00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:32,530 S2: can lift the veil. 344 00:19:34,770 --> 00:19:40,760 S1: And so that that walk then catapulted you, it gave 345 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,000 S1: you the momentum to do this. So you have to 346 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,640 S1: have a certain amount of courage to say yes to 347 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,800 S1: that voice. But you also have to have humility to 348 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,119 S1: sit under the story that has been told and retold. Right? 349 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,080 S2: That's right. And you again, that goes back to my conviction, 350 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,480 S2: as it were, that the story is is older and 351 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,320 S2: wiser than I am, so I am going to sit 352 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,520 S2: under it. I'm not going to lord over it. Now, 353 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,359 S2: sometimes there'll be some things in the story where I think, oh, look, 354 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,280 S2: there's a gap here. There's something I need, or there 355 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,480 S2: might be something about the way the stories were told 356 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,800 S2: in the Middle Ages where I honor that. But I 357 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,280 S2: also want to bring out something more or emphasize something different. 358 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,639 S2: I mean, a classic example of that would be given 359 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,639 S2: the way society was organized at the time, these stories 360 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,679 S2: really get written. I mean, the Arthur putatively a historical 361 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,040 S2: Arthur would have lived in the fifth century or the 362 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,859 S2: sixth century, but the stories don't really get told for 363 00:20:34,859 --> 00:20:37,420 S2: another 5 or 600 years. It's the 12th century that 364 00:20:37,420 --> 00:20:41,260 S2: they really get written down. Now, in 12th century, obviously, 365 00:20:41,619 --> 00:20:46,860 S2: it was a very patriarchal, very male dominated society. And 366 00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:49,820 S2: there tend to be archetypes of women. You know, there 367 00:20:49,820 --> 00:20:53,100 S2: was the beautiful, helpless maiden, the damsel in distress, or 368 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:56,699 S2: there was the wicked sorceress or, you know, but women weren't, 369 00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:59,940 S2: as it were, allowed to flourish as individual characters. Now, 370 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:02,619 S2: there are some very important women in the story of Arthur. 371 00:21:02,619 --> 00:21:04,220 S2: But one of the things that I found when I 372 00:21:04,220 --> 00:21:08,100 S2: was reading, um, well, in Malory's account, when the three 373 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:10,620 S2: Grail Knights are getting near to the end of the quest, 374 00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:13,139 S2: there's the Grail Castle is kind of enchanted. You can't 375 00:21:13,140 --> 00:21:16,220 S2: get there directly, and it needs. They need to do 376 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:18,580 S2: part of it on a ship. And it's a magical 377 00:21:18,580 --> 00:21:22,020 S2: but also sacred ship, which was built by King Solomon 378 00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:25,980 S2: partly for this very purpose. And, um, so the ship 379 00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:28,340 S2: shows up at three different points and picks up the 380 00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:32,100 S2: Grail Knights. And the person who's steering the ship is 381 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:37,480 S2: this beautiful maiden. You know, maiden dedicated to, to to 382 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,720 S2: spiritual life who acts as a kind of guide. But 383 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,040 S2: we never get told how she found the ship or 384 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,800 S2: who she was just told she's perseverance. The Knights of 385 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,600 S2: Percival's sister, I mean, Mallory doesn't even name her. And 386 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,840 S2: I went, whoa, you know, what's the story here? How 387 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,200 S2: did she even get there? How did she find the ship? 388 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,360 S2: How did she feel when her brother Percival went off 389 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,199 S2: to be a knight and she was left at home? 390 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,320 S2: So I have a whole, you know, nobody tells you this. 391 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,000 S2: I eventually read in the French sources in the Grail 392 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,240 S2: I found her name was Dindrane. So I thought I 393 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,520 S2: can modestly, you know, embroider something into this that fills 394 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,600 S2: the gap, but which also will be will speak more 395 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,200 S2: directly to my to my women readers. So I have 396 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,240 S2: a quest of faire de Andrade, and she's a kind 397 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,760 S2: of spiritual heroine in this story. She has her own quest. 398 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,750 S2: The Grail Knights would not achieve anything without her, and 399 00:22:31,790 --> 00:22:35,030 S2: also she's kind of, um, if you make the Lewis comparison, 400 00:22:35,030 --> 00:22:37,510 S2: she's kind of like the Lucy in my story. You know, 401 00:22:37,550 --> 00:22:42,790 S2: Lucy is the naturally spiritually gifted person in, in, in. 402 00:22:42,790 --> 00:22:46,230 S2: And obviously it's clearly, clearly Lewis's favorite character. She's always 403 00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:48,430 S2: the first to see and hear Aslan when they're having 404 00:22:48,430 --> 00:22:51,150 S2: an adventure. And you may remember there's a really. In fact, 405 00:22:51,150 --> 00:22:53,750 S2: I think I almost wonder whether Lewis was partly thinking 406 00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:56,149 S2: about Dan Drain when he wrote this. There's a really 407 00:22:56,150 --> 00:23:00,550 S2: significant passage in Prince Caspian when they're trying to to, 408 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:03,150 S2: you know, get back from where they are to where 409 00:23:03,150 --> 00:23:06,790 S2: they need to be and they're getting lost. And then, um, 410 00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:10,469 S2: Lucy sees Aslan and Aslan beckons her. And then she 411 00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:12,750 S2: has this wonderful vision of Aslan and all the trees 412 00:23:12,750 --> 00:23:16,070 S2: becoming dryads and dancing around him. And she can see Aslan, 413 00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:18,910 S2: but the others can't. And she has to tell her 414 00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:22,190 S2: older brothers and her older sister, you have to go 415 00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:25,230 S2: this way because. And they won't go at first. And 416 00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:27,150 S2: then she realizes she has to go anyway. And then 417 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:30,170 S2: they honor her, you know, they they even Peter realizes 418 00:23:30,170 --> 00:23:32,770 S2: at this point he has to follow Lucy because she's 419 00:23:32,770 --> 00:23:36,010 S2: spiritually gifted. So I've kind of, as I say, done 420 00:23:36,010 --> 00:23:38,770 S2: drain is my Lucy and I haven't, I think, done any. 421 00:23:39,290 --> 00:23:42,450 S2: I've not changed the fundamental plot in any way of 422 00:23:42,450 --> 00:23:45,489 S2: the early sources, but I filled in a gap and 423 00:23:45,490 --> 00:23:48,770 S2: I've drawn out a character that I think we need 424 00:23:48,770 --> 00:23:52,050 S2: to hear about. I'm you know, I don't I mean, 425 00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:54,250 S2: I'm not a believer in inevitable progress. And I think 426 00:23:54,250 --> 00:23:56,650 S2: we've lost and need to recover a lot of good things. 427 00:23:56,650 --> 00:23:59,050 S2: And that's why I'm writing this poem. But I do 428 00:23:59,050 --> 00:24:02,050 S2: think we've made some genuine advances. And the fair and 429 00:24:02,050 --> 00:24:04,689 S2: equal treatment of women is one of them. So there's 430 00:24:04,690 --> 00:24:06,770 S2: a sense in which, by retelling the story, I've put 431 00:24:06,770 --> 00:24:09,210 S2: a bit more emphasis on characters who are a bit 432 00:24:09,210 --> 00:24:12,770 S2: more marginal in the medieval sources. But I do it 433 00:24:12,770 --> 00:24:13,850 S2: very respectfully. 434 00:24:14,130 --> 00:24:16,890 S1: Yes. And I saw a video of you, and this 435 00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:18,370 S1: is one of the things I wanted to talk with 436 00:24:18,369 --> 00:24:21,930 S1: you about is, is then the research, because you didn't 437 00:24:21,930 --> 00:24:24,969 S1: just go off and decide to do what you decide 438 00:24:24,970 --> 00:24:27,210 S1: to do or take it wherever you want to go, 439 00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:31,670 S1: there was a video of you holding this book. Actually, 440 00:24:31,670 --> 00:24:34,750 S1: the person in the library was saying, now don't touch this. 441 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:36,629 S1: You know, it's because you don't want to get the 442 00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:40,310 S1: oils from your fingers on the pages. Um, and I 443 00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:43,870 S1: want to hear more about that and the significance of 444 00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:48,270 S1: those early writings that you were able to actually see. 445 00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:50,910 S1: But let me take a time out, Malcolm Guide is 446 00:24:50,910 --> 00:24:55,070 S1: with us today. The new book, Galahad and the Grail 447 00:24:55,070 --> 00:24:59,870 S1: is out. It's our featured resource at Chris fabry.org. We 448 00:24:59,910 --> 00:25:03,030 S1: haven't even talked about the illustrations in the book by 449 00:25:03,030 --> 00:25:08,230 S1: Stephen Kratz. It's just gorgeous. And you'll see a link 450 00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:12,630 S1: to it right there at Chris Fabry live.org. I want 451 00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:17,270 S1: to talk more with Malcolm about this Arthurian legend, and 452 00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:21,429 S1: then how to read poetry, how to get into the flow. 453 00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:24,270 S1: Because before we went on the program, I said I 454 00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:27,619 S1: had to put something aside in order to get into this, 455 00:25:27,619 --> 00:25:32,100 S1: because I am so used to reading prose, and it 456 00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:34,859 S1: took me a little while to get into it. He's 457 00:25:34,859 --> 00:25:36,820 S1: going to help us with that, and I think you're 458 00:25:36,820 --> 00:25:40,180 S1: going to enjoy the conversation here at the Radio Backyard Fence. Again, 459 00:25:40,180 --> 00:25:43,900 S1: Malcolm Gates book Galahad and the Grail book one of 460 00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:48,780 S1: four in this epic poem. Is it Chris Fabry live.org. 461 00:25:49,220 --> 00:25:54,500 S1: Chris Fabry live dot ORG. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. 462 00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:08,820 S1: This is Chris Fabry, live on Moody Radio. Our program's recorded. 463 00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:11,660 S1: We're having a conversation with the one, the only Malcolm 464 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:15,220 S1: Guyt Galahad and the Grail as our featured resource today, 465 00:26:15,220 --> 00:26:18,820 S1: go to Chris Fabry live.org. Today is the last day 466 00:26:18,820 --> 00:26:21,740 S1: of our offer of not old, not young, not done. 467 00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:24,540 S1: If you give a gift of any size today, we'll 468 00:26:24,540 --> 00:26:26,600 S1: make sure you get a copy of that, but you 469 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,520 S1: got to do it today. So there is a there's 470 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,560 S1: some urgency to this, but go to Chris Fabry live.org. 471 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,960 S1: You'll scroll down and see how you can be a 472 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,520 S1: friend or partner with us right there. Chris Fabry live.org. Malcolm. 473 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,440 S1: I love the YouTube videos of you and your office. 474 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,040 S1: Talk about that video of you holding that old, old book. 475 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,159 S2: Yeah. So you saw a video of me in the 476 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,879 S2: wonderful Bodleian Library in Oxford. It's quite a late manuscript, 477 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,680 S2: but it's actually a manuscript about heraldry and heraldry and 478 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,320 S2: shields and what's on a shield and what's on the 479 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,920 S2: banners and other night, and the colours and all that. 480 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,680 S2: A very important part of, of, of the European culture 481 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,000 S2: that and the British culture that loved the Arthurian stories. 482 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,160 S2: So in this book, right in the middle of it, 483 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,720 S2: as though they were just part of the historical process, 484 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,760 S2: is a page with the shields of all the Knights 485 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,080 S2: of the Round Table there, the shields of Galahad and 486 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,190 S2: Sir Percival and Sir Bors, who are the three Grail knights, 487 00:27:28,190 --> 00:27:30,869 S2: but also of Lancelot, who's very much part of the story. 488 00:27:31,390 --> 00:27:34,790 S2: And I wanted to describe these shields in my poetry, 489 00:27:35,270 --> 00:27:37,310 S2: and I didn't, you know, as far as possible, I 490 00:27:37,310 --> 00:27:41,430 S2: don't want to just make stuff up and randomly impose 491 00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:45,790 S2: something that doesn't fit. I want to draw out what's there. 492 00:27:45,950 --> 00:27:49,190 S2: And I actually couldn't find descriptions in the storytelling, in 493 00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:52,190 S2: the prose and the poetry of the Middle Ages. Perhaps 494 00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:54,030 S2: they took it as read. I mean, there are some 495 00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:57,790 S2: medieval manuscripts with some illustrations, but this was a heraldic one. 496 00:27:57,790 --> 00:27:59,909 S2: So you knew it was going to be exactly right. 497 00:27:59,910 --> 00:28:02,429 S2: So I could look at those shields. But the book 498 00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:04,710 S2: that really kicks it all off, not only in England 499 00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:07,790 S2: but across Europe, sort of. Arthur mania is, is a 500 00:28:07,790 --> 00:28:11,990 S2: book by in Latin by a chap called Geoffrey of Monmouth, 501 00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:15,949 S2: who was probably Welsh or maybe partly from Brittany, his ancestry, 502 00:28:16,150 --> 00:28:20,470 S2: and he wrote a book called History Historia Regum Britanniae, 503 00:28:20,510 --> 00:28:23,810 S2: which means history of the Kings of Britain and the 504 00:28:23,810 --> 00:28:27,730 S2: word Britannia is really important there. It's not England, it's Britain, 505 00:28:28,090 --> 00:28:29,970 S2: it's Britain as it was, as it were before it 506 00:28:29,970 --> 00:28:34,050 S2: became England. He tells you all kinds of stories that 507 00:28:34,050 --> 00:28:36,850 S2: he introduces the character of Merlin. He, you know, tells 508 00:28:36,850 --> 00:28:41,050 S2: you about Arthur's begetting. I mean, I've been into the 509 00:28:41,090 --> 00:28:43,930 S2: colleges and the University library in Cambridge and looked at 510 00:28:43,930 --> 00:28:49,090 S2: original manuscripts of that which often have beautiful illuminated illustrations. 511 00:28:49,090 --> 00:28:51,490 S2: But I also have a volume which is, you know, 512 00:28:51,610 --> 00:28:55,290 S2: produced by the Folio Society, who do of an English 513 00:28:55,290 --> 00:29:00,050 S2: translation of the Historia, where all the illustrations are drawn 514 00:29:00,050 --> 00:29:05,250 S2: from different plates of of the beautiful, unique illuminations of 515 00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:08,770 S2: these medieval manuscripts. So you can see what somebody in 516 00:29:08,770 --> 00:29:13,410 S2: the 12th century thought Arthur might look like, or Lancelot 517 00:29:13,450 --> 00:29:16,530 S2: might look like. Um, how they conceived. There's a wonderful 518 00:29:16,530 --> 00:29:20,170 S2: story in there about two dragons fighting a red dragon 519 00:29:20,170 --> 00:29:23,150 S2: and a white dragon in a pool underneath the building. 520 00:29:23,150 --> 00:29:27,590 S2: And and there's a fantastic illustration of that. So, um, 521 00:29:28,030 --> 00:29:30,950 S2: it was very important to me to soak myself in 522 00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:35,070 S2: the original sources. But having done that, you know, if 523 00:29:35,070 --> 00:29:37,390 S2: I wanted to do something that was exactly like a 524 00:29:37,390 --> 00:29:40,750 S2: medieval manuscript, I could just photocopy a medieval manuscript and 525 00:29:40,750 --> 00:29:43,270 S2: give it to you. I'm trying to tell the story 526 00:29:43,270 --> 00:29:46,670 S2: as a poet now, and although I'm using an old 527 00:29:46,670 --> 00:29:49,590 S2: ballad form and I'm occasionally using, I don't use many, 528 00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:53,390 S2: but I use some old words sometime. I'm also telling 529 00:29:53,390 --> 00:29:55,870 S2: it with an eye to what it means to us. 530 00:29:55,870 --> 00:29:57,950 S2: So I mean, just to give you an example, that's 531 00:29:57,950 --> 00:30:01,910 S2: pretty key to this first volume, Galahad and the Grail. 532 00:30:02,070 --> 00:30:06,870 S2: There's a motif, as it were, kind of within these stories, 533 00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:09,510 S2: which often gets kind of airbrushed out or not really 534 00:30:09,510 --> 00:30:13,070 S2: talked about in modern versions, but is incredibly relevant to us, 535 00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:17,150 S2: which is the motif of the wasteland. So the idea 536 00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:21,820 S2: is that there's the king Palace, who has the castle 537 00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:23,940 S2: that has the Grail, and it has the other hallows 538 00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:26,780 S2: that in the big story, in the long backstory, Joseph 539 00:30:26,780 --> 00:30:29,620 S2: of Arimathea, the person who lent his grave to Jesus 540 00:30:29,620 --> 00:30:33,180 S2: and was a follower of Jesus. The myth, the legend 541 00:30:33,220 --> 00:30:37,500 S2: is that is that after the resurrection, Jesus came and 542 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:39,900 S2: brought him the the Grail, the chalice that had been 543 00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:42,500 S2: used at the Last Supper, and the pattern, and also 544 00:30:43,060 --> 00:30:46,940 S2: the spear that the Roman soldier Longinus had used to 545 00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:49,980 S2: pierce Christ's heart. And of course, the legend is Longinus 546 00:30:49,980 --> 00:30:52,020 S2: is blinded. Then his eyes are opened by one of 547 00:30:52,020 --> 00:30:55,260 S2: the disciples, and he believes. Becomes a Christian. Even the 548 00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:58,260 S2: man who pierced Christ's heart with his spear. So these 549 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:00,420 S2: holy things are brought to Britain, and they're hidden in 550 00:31:00,420 --> 00:31:03,460 S2: this castle. And in the story, a knight, a very 551 00:31:03,460 --> 00:31:07,500 S2: rash knight called Balin, somehow gets into this castle. He 552 00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:10,580 S2: strays into it and he. He's rash and brawling, and 553 00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:13,180 S2: he starts a fight in one of the feasts. And 554 00:31:13,740 --> 00:31:16,180 S2: you know, the king pursues him and his sword breaks, 555 00:31:16,180 --> 00:31:19,100 S2: and he's weaponless. And he runs through the castle. And 556 00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:21,640 S2: at a certain point, he comes into this very holy, 557 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,200 S2: sacred part and he hears these voices saying, you know, 558 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,040 S2: man of sin, man of blood, come no further. And 559 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,880 S2: then he steps into a chapel. And again voices tell 560 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,960 S2: him to fall down to the ground. And, you know, 561 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,400 S2: it's like, take off their shoes, off their feet. For 562 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,080 S2: the place of standing is holy ground. But he's desperate 563 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,680 S2: to find a weapon. And he sees the Grail, and 564 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,840 S2: he sees this spear hovering above the Grail and drops 565 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,360 S2: of blood falling. And he sacrilegiously and foolishly he seizes 566 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,360 S2: the spear and he turns around and he wounds King Pelias, 567 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,960 S2: the fisher king. And as soon as he does this awful, 568 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,920 S2: sacrilegious act, that whole part of the castle falls down 569 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,800 S2: and they're buried alive himself and the wounded king and 570 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,840 S2: the Grail, as though in a sepulcher. But guess what? 571 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,000 S2: Three days and three nights. And on the third day, 572 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,600 S2: you know, Merlin comes and moves the stones and they 573 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,640 S2: come out. And then Merlin tells him what he did. 574 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,400 S2: You know, this was the spear that should have been 575 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,840 S2: the end to all violence. This is, you know, the 576 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,940 S2: long chain of hurts and hatreds of humankind, from the 577 00:32:19,940 --> 00:32:24,020 S2: slaying of Abel by Cain onwards. What each hatred was 578 00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:26,740 S2: met by another one. But now at last God comes 579 00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:30,740 S2: and intervenes. And when the spear pierces him, he's saying, father, forgive. 580 00:32:31,380 --> 00:32:36,260 S2: That spear should never have been used for more internecine violence. 581 00:32:36,340 --> 00:32:39,100 S2: So then comes the mysterious thing. And this is, if 582 00:32:39,140 --> 00:32:44,060 S2: you like, magical. But it's also, I think, resonant with 583 00:32:44,060 --> 00:32:49,740 S2: and consonant with the Gospels, because what what Merlin tells 584 00:32:50,140 --> 00:32:54,220 S2: Balin after he's committed what's called the dolorous stroke is 585 00:32:54,220 --> 00:32:57,620 S2: that because he's wounded the king, the land itself is 586 00:32:57,620 --> 00:33:00,500 S2: cursed and wounded, the land is laid waste, and all 587 00:33:00,540 --> 00:33:03,380 S2: the land that was the king's in three counties wide 588 00:33:03,380 --> 00:33:06,700 S2: on either side. The fish die in the rivers, the 589 00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:10,260 S2: crops fail in the fields. The cows can't calve. There's 590 00:33:10,260 --> 00:33:13,100 S2: no fertility. Everything is laid waste. And barren people can't 591 00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:16,540 S2: have children. And he has to leave, you know, and 592 00:33:16,540 --> 00:33:20,170 S2: ride through this devastated countryside, and everybody comes to the 593 00:33:20,170 --> 00:33:23,330 S2: doors of their cottages and hovels and curses him because 594 00:33:23,330 --> 00:33:25,570 S2: he did this thing now. My mum told me that 595 00:33:25,570 --> 00:33:28,290 S2: story right before I ever saw it in a book. 596 00:33:28,330 --> 00:33:29,810 S2: She told it to me like I'm telling it to 597 00:33:29,810 --> 00:33:31,970 S2: you and I'm like eight. She must have thought it 598 00:33:31,970 --> 00:33:34,170 S2: was about time I had heard this story. She didn't 599 00:33:34,170 --> 00:33:38,890 S2: hold back. It's like 1965. And I stop her and 600 00:33:38,890 --> 00:33:41,770 S2: she's in there. And I said, but mum, mum, that's terrible. Like, 601 00:33:42,090 --> 00:33:44,210 S2: I didn't even know what he was doing. How could 602 00:33:44,210 --> 00:33:47,970 S2: the rash action, you know, of a one fearful man, 603 00:33:47,970 --> 00:33:50,730 S2: have this devastating effect on so many, all these people 604 00:33:50,730 --> 00:33:53,730 S2: who can't have children and the dead fish. And my 605 00:33:53,730 --> 00:33:56,850 S2: mum said to me, look, Malcolm, I'm telling you this 606 00:33:56,850 --> 00:33:59,610 S2: story because you need to know that you live in 607 00:33:59,610 --> 00:34:02,010 S2: a world like that. It'd only been a couple of 608 00:34:02,010 --> 00:34:04,370 S2: years since the Cuban Missile Crisis. You know, she said 609 00:34:04,370 --> 00:34:06,770 S2: we had to worry your father and I about whether 610 00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:08,529 S2: it was even right to bring a child into a 611 00:34:08,530 --> 00:34:12,490 S2: world so perilous where all might fail. But we had hope. 612 00:34:12,650 --> 00:34:14,370 S2: And I'm looking at my mum, she said, why do 613 00:34:14,370 --> 00:34:16,790 S2: you have hope? You know? And she says, well, we 614 00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:20,190 S2: had hope because that's not the end of the story. 615 00:34:20,590 --> 00:34:22,910 S2: And of course, what she then went on to tell 616 00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:26,630 S2: me was how Merlin said to Balin that there was 617 00:34:26,630 --> 00:34:29,750 S2: hope and that one day the good night, the Grail 618 00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:33,190 S2: knight would come and he would achieve the Holy Grail. 619 00:34:33,230 --> 00:34:35,589 S2: He would really understand the meaning of the body and 620 00:34:35,590 --> 00:34:39,670 S2: blood of Christ. And then, with the exact same spear 621 00:34:39,670 --> 00:34:42,989 S2: that wounded the king, the blood of Christ falling from 622 00:34:42,989 --> 00:34:46,350 S2: it would heal the king. And when the king was healed, 623 00:34:46,590 --> 00:34:49,230 S2: the land would be healed. And that's essentially that. My 624 00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:50,910 S2: story is how they. But of course, you can't get 625 00:34:50,910 --> 00:34:54,550 S2: to the Grail except by going through the wasteland. And 626 00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:57,430 S2: almost nobody makes it through except for these three knights 627 00:34:57,430 --> 00:34:59,270 S2: in my story. And you'll find out why if you 628 00:34:59,270 --> 00:35:02,029 S2: read it. But so I took all that in, in 629 00:35:02,030 --> 00:35:04,910 S2: a weird way as a kid. And you know, then 630 00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:07,830 S2: later on, when I was reading the Medieval Sources as 631 00:35:07,830 --> 00:35:09,950 S2: a student in Cambridge in the 70s, I was thinking 632 00:35:09,950 --> 00:35:12,750 S2: about ecology and the ecological crisis and the way we 633 00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:15,100 S2: screw up and the land is screwed up. So I 634 00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:19,220 S2: was making that connection for me. But much later still, 635 00:35:19,219 --> 00:35:22,660 S2: when I came to a full return to my Christian faith, 636 00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:26,660 S2: I suddenly realized that this little story, which might originally 637 00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:29,859 S2: have been pre-Christian about the wounded king, the Fisher King 638 00:35:29,860 --> 00:35:34,500 S2: and the land, is actually a little epitome of the 639 00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:38,419 S2: big story because God puts us in the garden. You know, 640 00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:40,299 S2: Adam and Eve are kind of like the king and 641 00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:42,340 S2: queen and the goodness of the garden and of the 642 00:35:42,340 --> 00:35:45,180 S2: creation depends on the goodness of Adam and Eve. And 643 00:35:45,180 --> 00:35:49,219 S2: when they fall, you know, God says, cursed shall be 644 00:35:49,219 --> 00:35:51,819 S2: the ground because of you. And when Milton writes his 645 00:35:51,820 --> 00:35:54,580 S2: epic Paradise Lost, and he's obviously a very important, you know, 646 00:35:54,780 --> 00:35:57,100 S2: role model for me as well. When he finally gets 647 00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:59,780 S2: to the moment where Eve reaches out, he doesn't say. 648 00:35:59,820 --> 00:36:03,060 S2: And so this particular private individual woman committed a little 649 00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:05,859 S2: peccadillo and will need to be forgiven. What he asked 650 00:36:05,860 --> 00:36:08,339 S2: the first thing he says when mankind falls is not 651 00:36:08,340 --> 00:36:11,300 S2: about mankind at all. He says earth felt the wound 652 00:36:11,540 --> 00:36:14,439 S2: and nature sighing out through all her works gave sign 653 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,239 S2: that all was lost. And suddenly that connected for me 654 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,799 S2: with the great passage in Romans, where he says, all 655 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,720 S2: the creation has been subjected to futility, but futility subject 656 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,240 S2: to futility in hope. And the whole creation waits with 657 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,720 S2: eager longing for the revealing of the children of God. 658 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,480 S2: So we have screwed up the earth and the. And 659 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,919 S2: the healing of that will only come through Christ and 660 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,239 S2: the blood that he shed. And that's all in that story. 661 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,640 S2: It's not made explicit in the way I've made it 662 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,200 S2: explicit to you just now, but it's all there, and 663 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,719 S2: it's kind of baptizing the imagination of our ancestors. And 664 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,120 S2: it can baptize our imagination, too. So one thing I 665 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,239 S2: learned from my mother as an eight year old when 666 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,240 S2: she told me this story, was that, whoa, this story 667 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,920 S2: knows stuff that I didn't know, and it knows stuff 668 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,480 S2: that I probably need to keep knowing as I grow up. 669 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,479 S1: Which makes me want to reach out and hug your 670 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,600 S1: mother for doing that. Because what you've just done, you, 671 00:37:11,980 --> 00:37:15,060 S1: first heard this as an eight year old, and now, 672 00:37:15,060 --> 00:37:17,379 S1: all these years later, 57. 673 00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:18,540 S2: A 68 year old, now. 674 00:37:18,580 --> 00:37:23,260 S1: 60. Okay, 60 years later, this is coming from the overflow. 675 00:37:23,540 --> 00:37:29,020 S1: This is coming from that heart that has been embraced, 676 00:37:29,020 --> 00:37:33,020 S1: that story so that we might see the bigger story. 677 00:37:33,060 --> 00:37:36,420 S1: Let me take our final break. Galahad and the Grail 678 00:37:36,460 --> 00:37:39,779 S1: by Malcolm Guite is our featured resource. Go to Chris 679 00:37:39,820 --> 00:37:54,900 S1: Fabry live.org. Chris fabriclive.org. What a pleasure. What a privilege. 680 00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:57,380 S1: What an honor to have Malcolm Gate with us today. 681 00:37:57,420 --> 00:37:59,980 S1: Our program is recorded, but I hope you'll go to 682 00:37:59,980 --> 00:38:03,060 S1: the website. You'll see the first book in the four 683 00:38:03,060 --> 00:38:07,020 S1: book series. The first book is called Galahad and the Grail. 684 00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:11,129 S1: It's part of Merlin's aisle and Arthurian. AD. And so 685 00:38:11,170 --> 00:38:13,570 S1: I want to be real honest with you. I'm not 686 00:38:13,570 --> 00:38:16,529 S1: a I'm trying I've been trying over the last couple 687 00:38:16,570 --> 00:38:19,530 S1: of years to read more poetry and to get that 688 00:38:19,530 --> 00:38:23,489 S1: poetry and even to write some myself, to journal in 689 00:38:23,489 --> 00:38:27,370 S1: poetic form as much as I can. And as I 690 00:38:27,370 --> 00:38:30,810 S1: started the book and I read the beginning and then 691 00:38:30,810 --> 00:38:36,090 S1: the first part of it, I, I was stuck thinking 692 00:38:36,090 --> 00:38:39,450 S1: because I was thinking, how is he going to do this? 693 00:38:39,610 --> 00:38:42,610 S1: How is he? You know, and, and seeing the meter 694 00:38:42,610 --> 00:38:45,090 S1: and the rhyme and everything and the, you know, the 695 00:38:45,090 --> 00:38:48,009 S1: way that you change that, how is he going to 696 00:38:48,010 --> 00:38:51,410 S1: do that? And it's almost like watching a film where 697 00:38:51,410 --> 00:38:54,130 S1: they have the, the long one shot, you know, they 698 00:38:54,130 --> 00:38:57,850 S1: don't change camera angles or anything. And you're, you're enamored with, 699 00:38:57,890 --> 00:39:01,530 S1: you know, the, the cinematography and you're supposed to be watching, 700 00:39:01,570 --> 00:39:05,009 S1: you're supposed to be seeing something. So I was enamored 701 00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:09,390 S1: with how you were doing this. And then it struck me. 702 00:39:09,710 --> 00:39:14,190 S1: Don't think about how he did this. Just jump in 703 00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:17,790 S1: and allow it to wash over you. What do you 704 00:39:17,790 --> 00:39:18,550 S1: think of that? 705 00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:21,630 S2: That's absolutely right. So the first thing about poetry. I 706 00:39:21,630 --> 00:39:24,069 S2: know why people think, oh golly, poetry is not for me. 707 00:39:24,070 --> 00:39:28,910 S2: And poetry is difficult. Modern poetry. Poetry, since T.S. Eliot 708 00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:32,950 S2: has sometimes been deliberately difficult and it's been broken, and 709 00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:35,950 S2: it sometimes hasn't even had the music of meter or rhyme. 710 00:39:35,950 --> 00:39:38,710 S2: It's kind of experimental verse, and you get this weird 711 00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:42,069 S2: academic coterie verse. And if I was advising somebody about 712 00:39:42,070 --> 00:39:43,910 S2: how to start reading poetry, I'd say, start with the 713 00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:47,310 S2: beautiful old stuff, you know? But I'm not interested in 714 00:39:47,350 --> 00:39:49,910 S2: that kind of poetry. What I'm interested in is the ballad, 715 00:39:50,110 --> 00:39:54,030 S2: which was the natural kind of oral form of folk 716 00:39:54,030 --> 00:39:56,750 S2: story to tell stories, because the rhythm and rhyme made 717 00:39:56,750 --> 00:40:01,390 S2: it exciting and made it memorable. And the ballad is 718 00:40:01,430 --> 00:40:05,069 S2: a not too distant cousin of the nursery rhyme. And 719 00:40:05,070 --> 00:40:08,290 S2: if you think about it, we all started with these 720 00:40:08,290 --> 00:40:12,129 S2: wonderful rhymes and rhythmic things and playing pat a cake, 721 00:40:12,130 --> 00:40:14,569 S2: pat a cake, you know, with our mothers and being 722 00:40:14,570 --> 00:40:17,130 S2: jiggled up and down. The rhythm thing is really strong, 723 00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:19,170 S2: so maybe it'll help. I wrote a little, a little 724 00:40:19,170 --> 00:40:21,170 S2: note about how to do this. Like because I realized 725 00:40:21,170 --> 00:40:23,410 S2: I'm doing what for many people is a weird thing. 726 00:40:23,410 --> 00:40:25,370 S2: I mean, 200 years ago, it was the most natural 727 00:40:25,370 --> 00:40:27,250 S2: thing in the world. And I think it's time to 728 00:40:27,250 --> 00:40:31,090 S2: do it again. But anyway, so I've said this poem 729 00:40:31,090 --> 00:40:33,930 S2: is written in the ringing, singing rhythmic form of the 730 00:40:33,930 --> 00:40:37,210 S2: English ballad. Ballads were made to be sung or chanted 731 00:40:37,210 --> 00:40:39,969 S2: out loud long before they were ever written down. It's 732 00:40:39,969 --> 00:40:42,850 S2: when read aloud that a ballad comes to life. So 733 00:40:42,850 --> 00:40:45,170 S2: I suggest that the best experience of this poem is 734 00:40:45,170 --> 00:40:47,330 S2: to be had when it's read out loud, heard in 735 00:40:47,330 --> 00:40:49,650 S2: the ear and tasted on the tongue rather than merely 736 00:40:49,650 --> 00:40:53,050 S2: gazed upon on the page. And then I say this 737 00:40:53,250 --> 00:40:56,330 S2: reading a ballad out loud is easy. You read it 738 00:40:56,330 --> 00:40:59,850 S2: for the sense, for the sentence, for the meaning that 739 00:40:59,850 --> 00:41:02,290 S2: runs across the lines in between the rhymes. The rhyme 740 00:41:02,290 --> 00:41:04,969 S2: and rhythm will take care of themselves. Ideally, you should 741 00:41:04,969 --> 00:41:08,120 S2: be unconscious of them. they'll gradually take up their own 742 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,439 S2: backbeat and melody and carry you along whilst you surge 743 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,000 S2: forward with the story itself. Don't worry about pausing at 744 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,480 S2: the end of the line or emphasizing a rhyme. Read 745 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,799 S2: each stave as if you were telling yourself you were 746 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,120 S2: yourself telling the story around a campfire. And it sounds 747 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,040 S2: to me like that's what happened with you. That you you, um. 748 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,080 S2: Suddenly the rhythm kicked in and you got it. You 749 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:28,520 S2: didn't have to worry about it anymore. 750 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,080 S1: Yes, exactly. It buoys you and but but you have 751 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,919 S1: to suspend your desire to. Wait a minute. I don't 752 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,520 S1: know who that is. I got to find out who 753 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,560 S1: that person is. I don't know that. It's like, it's 754 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:46,800 S1: okay for this to be a mystery that unfolds for you. 755 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,440 S2: Absolutely. And sometimes you'll catch up with it later. Also, 756 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,320 S2: the thing about poetry is it's got lots to give you, 757 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,840 S2: and it doesn't give it to you all at once. 758 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,080 S2: So the expectation is that, you know, you'll enjoy this, 759 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,400 S2: but hopefully you'll come back to it and you'll reread it, 760 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,439 S2: or you'll read it to your kids or something. You go, oh, 761 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,700 S2: wait a minute. I mean, I have that actually with 762 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:08,140 S2: great prose as well. I have that with Lewis and Tolkien. 763 00:42:08,140 --> 00:42:10,500 S2: I'm rereading these things I read as a kid, and 764 00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:12,900 S2: there's loads more, and I'm hoping there's loads more. I 765 00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:16,100 S2: remember when I was expounding a poem, you know, one 766 00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:18,660 S2: of these great poems to some students in Cambridge. And 767 00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:21,620 S2: obviously I'd known the poem for like 40 years or whatever. 768 00:42:21,660 --> 00:42:23,380 S2: These kids are hearing it for the first time, and 769 00:42:23,380 --> 00:42:25,739 S2: I start showing them some of the good stuff that's 770 00:42:25,739 --> 00:42:28,259 S2: in there. And one of these kids jaws on the floor, 771 00:42:28,260 --> 00:42:30,060 S2: he's going, oh, gee, I didn't get any of that. 772 00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:32,380 S2: You know, I only got like a 10th of that, 773 00:42:32,420 --> 00:42:35,740 S2: you know, am I dumb? And I say, look, no, look, 774 00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:37,819 S2: I've been living with this poem for 40 years. You've 775 00:42:37,820 --> 00:42:40,700 S2: been living with it for ten minutes. And then I 776 00:42:40,739 --> 00:42:43,740 S2: would sort of I would probably get cancelled for this saying, listen, listen, guys, 777 00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:46,580 S2: a piece of advice here. You don't want to go 778 00:42:46,580 --> 00:42:48,380 S2: out with a poem that gives you everything on the 779 00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:52,060 S2: first date, right? You want a poem that's going to 780 00:42:52,060 --> 00:42:54,140 S2: sneak up on you 20 years later and give you 781 00:42:54,140 --> 00:42:55,940 S2: another little kiss of meaning. You know. 782 00:42:57,180 --> 00:42:57,620 S1: I love. 783 00:42:57,620 --> 00:42:59,420 S2: That. So you don't have to worry about getting it 784 00:42:59,420 --> 00:43:00,220 S2: all straight away. 785 00:43:00,460 --> 00:43:04,530 S1: So here is a word you mentioned. You know, you 786 00:43:04,570 --> 00:43:07,250 S1: try to stay away from archaic words as much as possible. 787 00:43:07,330 --> 00:43:11,410 S1: Here's a word that I've heard before. I saw Boone 788 00:43:11,570 --> 00:43:15,330 S1: BOON and I thought, okay, I'm going to look that. 789 00:43:15,330 --> 00:43:17,370 S1: And then, no, I don't need to look that up. 790 00:43:17,370 --> 00:43:19,090 S1: I kind of know what Boone means. 791 00:43:19,090 --> 00:43:21,490 S2: You kind of know when somebody says, Grant me a Boone. 792 00:43:21,489 --> 00:43:23,609 S2: And then you say, the other guy says, I'll grant 793 00:43:23,610 --> 00:43:25,969 S2: you whatever you ask. You kind of know what a 794 00:43:25,969 --> 00:43:28,410 S2: Boone is. You know, it's a favor. You don't. That's 795 00:43:28,410 --> 00:43:29,450 S2: how we learn. You know. 796 00:43:29,530 --> 00:43:31,810 S1: It comes back again. Is that there it is again. 797 00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:35,890 S1: There's it again. Why? Why is Boone so important in here? 798 00:43:36,410 --> 00:43:38,250 S2: Well, it's of course, it is one of the words 799 00:43:38,250 --> 00:43:40,850 S2: that's used a lot in the sources in Mallory. And 800 00:43:40,850 --> 00:43:42,890 S2: I keep a few of those words just to give 801 00:43:42,890 --> 00:43:48,170 S2: you that that flavor that you're retelling an ancient story. Um, 802 00:43:48,810 --> 00:43:50,690 S2: and I like it. I like the sound of it. 803 00:43:50,730 --> 00:43:57,969 S2: It's kind of related to, to bounty. It's etymological related 804 00:43:57,969 --> 00:44:03,150 S2: to it. I also, I have a, a preference, Maybe 805 00:44:03,150 --> 00:44:05,110 S2: this is a bit of English patriotism on my part 806 00:44:05,150 --> 00:44:09,750 S2: for these strong rhythmic, short Anglo-Saxon words. So the word boon, 807 00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:14,029 S2: which is an Anglo-Saxon word, originally was replaced by the 808 00:44:14,030 --> 00:44:17,270 S2: word favor. Do me a favor. MM. Right. Grant me 809 00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:19,910 S2: a favor rather than grant me a boon. And that 810 00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:23,469 S2: became the word because the Normans came over and all the, 811 00:44:23,870 --> 00:44:26,469 S2: you know, French became the posh language, the language of 812 00:44:26,469 --> 00:44:30,230 S2: the overlords and its favor, and eventually goes into all 813 00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:34,310 S2: the European languages, por favor or whatever, you know. So, um, 814 00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:38,710 S2: but I like the, the old English words and occasionally 815 00:44:38,710 --> 00:44:41,550 S2: I just revive them because I think they need reviving. 816 00:44:42,750 --> 00:44:43,589 S1: I do too. 817 00:44:44,350 --> 00:44:47,350 S2: As a poet, I'm really interested in sound and in, 818 00:44:47,830 --> 00:44:53,990 S2: in a kind of sort of strong, pungent, redolent feel 819 00:44:53,989 --> 00:44:56,989 S2: of particular words. And so I just thought, I'm not 820 00:44:56,989 --> 00:45:00,669 S2: going to use a frenchified word where I can, I 821 00:45:00,710 --> 00:45:02,450 S2: can use an English one. 822 00:45:02,489 --> 00:45:04,770 S1: Yes, and that's one of the reasons why I love 823 00:45:04,770 --> 00:45:08,330 S1: the old hymns. It has the. Here I raise my Ebenezer. 824 00:45:08,370 --> 00:45:10,370 S1: You know, don't change that. Explain it to me. 825 00:45:10,410 --> 00:45:13,049 S2: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you can actually tell what that 826 00:45:13,050 --> 00:45:14,969 S2: is to some degree from the context. But if you 827 00:45:14,969 --> 00:45:17,810 S2: don't know it well, you go and read your Bible 828 00:45:17,810 --> 00:45:20,049 S2: and that's the hymns done the job then, hasn't it? 829 00:45:20,410 --> 00:45:22,770 S2: Oh yeah. And I think the other place where, where 830 00:45:22,810 --> 00:45:26,650 S2: my sense of rhythm and you know, this ballad meter, 831 00:45:26,690 --> 00:45:28,770 S2: I mean, some of the, the some of the great 832 00:45:28,770 --> 00:45:31,170 S2: hymns are written in this ballad meter, you know, where 833 00:45:31,170 --> 00:45:33,049 S2: you have a four stressed line and then a three 834 00:45:33,050 --> 00:45:35,529 S2: stressed line, then a four stressed line, then a three 835 00:45:35,530 --> 00:45:38,650 S2: stress line. And I think hymnody is one of the 836 00:45:38,650 --> 00:45:42,210 S2: places and of course, the, the wonderful metrical translations of 837 00:45:42,210 --> 00:45:46,330 S2: the Psalms that the that the Scots did. Those are 838 00:45:46,330 --> 00:45:48,690 S2: great resources for poetry. Now, I think. 839 00:45:49,330 --> 00:45:55,609 S1: Malcolm, you have just enlivened us here in 45 minutes, 840 00:45:55,730 --> 00:45:58,610 S1: which is what we've done, 55 minutes for the whole programme. 841 00:45:58,610 --> 00:46:02,400 S1: But you've just opened our hearts a little bit more 842 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:08,160 S1: to the truth and what stories can do to us, 843 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,480 S1: in us, and then through us. 844 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:11,880 S2: Indeed. Yeah. 845 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,319 S1: Thank you. Thank you for your great pleasure. And you 846 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,360 S1: got to come back the next time, okay? 847 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,680 S2: Yeah. Thank you very much. And thank you for thank 848 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,839 S2: you for noticing the book and wanting to share it. 849 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,359 S2: You know, it's, uh, it's lovely to know that. And 850 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,000 S2: I hope your, your, your listeners have great joy of it. 851 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,480 S1: I think it will delight them. Galahad and the Grail 852 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,440 S1: by Malcolm Guide, illustrated by Steven Kratz. You can find it. 853 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,000 S1: We have it linked at Chris Fabry live.org. Chris Favre 854 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,960 S1: live dot ORG. Our program's production of Moody Radio, a 855 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,200 S1: Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.