1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,160 S1: Could the path to a deeper faith be found through 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,760 S1: the valley of your deepest questions and even your doubts? 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,040 S1: Or could the path to a deeper faith for a 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,120 S1: son or daughter, or another family member or friend be 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,200 S1: through their deepest doubts? That's what we're going to discuss 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,240 S1: today at the Radio Backyard Fence. For many followers of 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,880 S1: Jesus doubts a dirty word. You don't want to doubt. 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,040 S1: You don't want your family, your friends to doubt. But 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,960 S1: there are a lot of young people, particularly on the 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,800 S1: college campus, who have big time doubts that haven't been 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,320 S1: addressed well in the church. Enter the father and son 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,320 S1: team from Fairfield County, Connecticut. Cliff and Stuart Connect. I've 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,280 S1: been a consumer of their videos for some time now, 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,240 S1: and today we have a conversation that might be exactly 15 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,000 S1: what you need to hear for your own heart and soul, 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,560 S1: or for someone you know who is walking through a 17 00:00:59,630 --> 00:01:02,830 S1: season of doubt. Welcome to Chris Fabry live. The program 18 00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:04,550 S1: from the heart to the heart for the heart. We 19 00:01:04,550 --> 00:01:06,589 S1: begin with a thank you to our team, Ryan McConaughey 20 00:01:06,630 --> 00:01:09,470 S1: doing all things technical. Trish is away today. Lisa is 21 00:01:09,470 --> 00:01:12,950 S1: in the chair. Josh will be answering your calls and 22 00:01:12,950 --> 00:01:15,789 S1: there is an unseen team so important to bringing you 23 00:01:15,790 --> 00:01:19,230 S1: these conversations. And that's the team of supporters who are 24 00:01:19,230 --> 00:01:21,350 S1: friends or partners with us. A friend gives a one 25 00:01:21,390 --> 00:01:24,870 S1: time gift to partner, gives a monthly recurring gift, and 26 00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:27,950 S1: you receive some really great resources as our thank you. 27 00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:31,950 S1: This month, we're offering the book Powerful Self-Talk from the Psalms. 28 00:01:32,069 --> 00:01:34,630 S1: If you heard our conversation yesterday with the ladies from 29 00:01:34,630 --> 00:01:38,870 S1: point of Grace, they identified with those voices of doubt 30 00:01:38,870 --> 00:01:43,949 S1: and shame and inadequacy. The Psalms give a biblical antidote 31 00:01:43,950 --> 00:01:46,869 S1: to that negative thinking about yourself. It tells you what 32 00:01:46,910 --> 00:01:49,230 S1: God thinks about you. I'd love to send you a 33 00:01:49,230 --> 00:01:52,350 S1: copy of this. Go to Chris Fabry live.org. Give a 34 00:01:52,350 --> 00:01:54,910 S1: one time gift, or you can become a monthly partner 35 00:01:54,910 --> 00:01:59,340 S1: with us, Chris Fabry. FABRY. not? As hard to say 36 00:01:59,340 --> 00:02:10,820 S1: as Kinect, but it's pretty close. Chris. fabriclive.org or call 8669538669532279. 37 00:02:10,820 --> 00:02:14,780 S1: And thank you for your support of the radio backyard fence. Cliff. 38 00:02:15,340 --> 00:02:17,700 S1: That's Cliff with an E at the end of it 39 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:21,780 S1: is senior pastor of Grace Community Church in New Canaan, Connecticut. Now, 40 00:02:21,780 --> 00:02:24,899 S1: how can it be Connecticut and connect? I don't get it. 41 00:02:24,940 --> 00:02:27,419 S1: He is host and founder of Give Me An Answer, 42 00:02:27,460 --> 00:02:32,700 S1: a university campus ministry that began 35 years ago, 1991. 43 00:02:32,780 --> 00:02:35,540 S1: If my math is correct, at 35 and he has 44 00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:40,820 S1: since reached tens of millions of Americans via social media. Cliff, 45 00:02:40,820 --> 00:02:42,580 S1: I've been looking forward to this for a long time. 46 00:02:42,580 --> 00:02:43,579 S1: How are you doing today? 47 00:02:44,060 --> 00:02:45,780 S2: Good to meet you on the phone, Chris. 48 00:02:46,260 --> 00:02:51,060 S1: Same here. And Stewart correctly. Same spelled and pronounced the 49 00:02:51,060 --> 00:02:54,460 S1: same way is a social media influencer who grew. Give 50 00:02:54,460 --> 00:02:57,169 S1: me an answer. From a following about 10,000 to about 51 00:02:57,169 --> 00:03:00,850 S1: 3.5 million, and it's probably more now. He currently debates 52 00:03:00,850 --> 00:03:04,050 S1: on university campuses with his dad. Together they have written 53 00:03:04,050 --> 00:03:09,690 S1: an excellent resource demolishing doubt. Discover how your deepest questions 54 00:03:09,690 --> 00:03:12,489 S1: can lead to life giving faith. We have it linked 55 00:03:12,490 --> 00:03:16,610 S1: to Chris fabriclive.org. Stuart, welcome and tell me, I think 56 00:03:16,610 --> 00:03:20,010 S1: you are about something like three years old when, uh, 57 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:23,769 S1: your dad started that that ministry, he had been going 58 00:03:23,770 --> 00:03:26,650 S1: out for even more years before that. What did you 59 00:03:26,650 --> 00:03:28,770 S1: think of your what your dad did on the college 60 00:03:28,770 --> 00:03:30,250 S1: campus when you were a kid? 61 00:03:31,130 --> 00:03:33,730 S3: Thanks so much for having us on, Chris. I thought 62 00:03:33,730 --> 00:03:38,930 S3: it was crazy, wild and cool all at the same time, 63 00:03:38,930 --> 00:03:42,970 S3: even as a little tyke. Uh, going to the berkeleys especially, 64 00:03:42,970 --> 00:03:46,170 S3: and seeing the guys screaming for inches from his nose 65 00:03:46,170 --> 00:03:51,450 S3: and spitting, throwing pies. I just, I don't know, probably 66 00:03:51,450 --> 00:03:54,170 S3: a level of PTSD, Chris, that I'm still getting over 67 00:03:54,450 --> 00:03:57,160 S3: that I'll struggle with all life long. But overall, I 68 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,080 S3: think that kind of gave. Gave me an understanding of, obviously, 69 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,440 S3: how important the message of the gospel was. Yeah. And 70 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,400 S3: to get that out as quickly and as fluidly as 71 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,680 S3: possible and really hostile environments. 72 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,400 S1: Cliff, happy birthday a day late. I hope you. 73 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:13,240 S2: Thank you Chris. 74 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,640 S1: Hope you had cake yesterday. Uh, so take me back 75 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,920 S1: 35 or 45 years to when you first started. What 76 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:22,080 S1: gave you the idea? 77 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,919 S2: Well, when I was at Gordon-conwell Seminary, I used to 78 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,960 S2: go into the inner city Boston, to the combat zone, 79 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,880 S2: which is where the city of Boston tried to legalize 80 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,560 S2: prostitution in an effort to contain it. And I used 81 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,960 S2: to preach in blue collar bars in the combat zone 82 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,360 S2: to men on vacation, quote unquote. And, uh, I never 83 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,960 S2: knew that I would be doing open air dialogues on campuses, 84 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,000 S2: but that was quite a training arena for me in seminary, 85 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,520 S2: preaching in those bars for a couple of minutes and 86 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,950 S2: then getting kicked out or walking out on my own steam. 87 00:04:56,510 --> 00:04:59,469 S2: And then I went on staff with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship 88 00:04:59,470 --> 00:05:02,870 S2: in the Boston area to do evangelism. And then a 89 00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:06,350 S2: father in the Lord named Leighton Ford encouraged me to 90 00:05:06,390 --> 00:05:10,630 S2: try open air dialogue on campuses. He saw hellfire and 91 00:05:10,630 --> 00:05:12,870 S2: brimstone preacher stand up and tell all the students that 92 00:05:12,870 --> 00:05:15,350 S2: were going to hell in a handcart. And he said, Cliff, 93 00:05:15,350 --> 00:05:16,830 S2: why don't you go out and try and present both 94 00:05:16,830 --> 00:05:19,549 S2: the love and the truth of Christ? And so, Chris, 95 00:05:19,589 --> 00:05:23,150 S2: it was 46 years ago now on the beaches of 96 00:05:23,150 --> 00:05:26,830 S2: Fort Lauderdale, Florida, when InterVarsity had a beach evangelism project 97 00:05:27,150 --> 00:05:29,830 S2: that I stood up and started to preach and guys 98 00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:32,430 S2: hopped off their towels and they started firing questions. They 99 00:05:32,430 --> 00:05:35,110 S2: obviously did not want to hear my sermonette, but they 100 00:05:35,110 --> 00:05:36,630 S2: wanted to show me what a fool I was for 101 00:05:36,630 --> 00:05:40,030 S2: believing in Jesus. And I welcome that tremendously. And so 102 00:05:40,029 --> 00:05:42,630 S2: we had about a one hour dialogue. And then when 103 00:05:42,630 --> 00:05:44,230 S2: I was tired, I went back to the hotel where 104 00:05:44,230 --> 00:05:48,029 S2: the university staff and students were staying. And then slowly 105 00:05:48,029 --> 00:05:49,830 S2: staff and students began to ask me if I would 106 00:05:49,830 --> 00:05:52,790 S2: try this on their campus. So that's how it started, Chris, 107 00:05:52,870 --> 00:05:54,070 S2: 46 years ago. 108 00:05:54,470 --> 00:05:56,790 S1: I was going to ask you what the name Leighton 109 00:05:56,790 --> 00:06:00,510 S1: Ford means to you. It sounds like he was one 110 00:06:00,510 --> 00:06:02,750 S1: of those people who put his arm around you and said, 111 00:06:02,750 --> 00:06:03,750 S1: you can do this. 112 00:06:05,070 --> 00:06:10,670 S2: Oh, he was an amazing mentor, teacher, Discipler friend of me. 113 00:06:11,230 --> 00:06:14,710 S2: I used to spend the weekends with the Fords when 114 00:06:14,710 --> 00:06:17,349 S2: I was a student at Davidson College down in North Carolina, 115 00:06:17,390 --> 00:06:21,070 S2: outside Charlotte, where he lives, and they became a second 116 00:06:21,070 --> 00:06:22,870 S2: family to me. And I will never be able to 117 00:06:22,910 --> 00:06:25,630 S2: thank Leighton and Jean enough for all that they gave me. 118 00:06:26,470 --> 00:06:29,190 S1: See, when you said Davidson, it's like I read that 119 00:06:29,190 --> 00:06:31,669 S1: in the bio or somewhere in the book, and it 120 00:06:31,670 --> 00:06:35,190 S1: was like I went to Marshall University, The Thundering Herd. 121 00:06:35,350 --> 00:06:39,430 S1: And in basketball, Davidson was always the toughest to get 122 00:06:39,430 --> 00:06:42,750 S1: over in the Southern Conference. Davidson was always the hardest 123 00:06:42,750 --> 00:06:45,150 S1: one to get over because there's so many good basketball 124 00:06:45,150 --> 00:06:47,830 S1: players there. Davidson you weren't one of them, were you? 125 00:06:48,390 --> 00:06:50,950 S2: No, no, no no. I barely made the team and 126 00:06:50,950 --> 00:06:53,460 S2: I had good seats for every game. And when the 127 00:06:53,460 --> 00:06:55,660 S2: team went out to play UCLA on the West Coast, 128 00:06:55,660 --> 00:06:57,340 S2: they did not have a seat on the airplane for 129 00:06:57,339 --> 00:06:59,659 S2: me on the jet. So I went home for Christmas 130 00:06:59,660 --> 00:07:02,020 S2: instead of going out with a team to play against UCLA. 131 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:04,140 S2: So I got to play in practice. But no, no, 132 00:07:04,140 --> 00:07:05,740 S2: I did not play in any of the games. 133 00:07:05,980 --> 00:07:10,500 S1: Okay. Still with you, Cliff? Take me back then. 45, 134 00:07:10,540 --> 00:07:13,580 S1: 46 years ago. 35 years ago. When you start the 135 00:07:13,580 --> 00:07:20,260 S1: Ministry of officially. What's the difference between then and now 136 00:07:20,540 --> 00:07:22,740 S1: with who you are meeting on campus? 137 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:25,980 S2: The difference has very little to do with the type 138 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:29,060 S2: of questions that are asked. The questions are very similar. 139 00:07:29,380 --> 00:07:33,060 S2: The difference has to do with emotional makeup. The emotional 140 00:07:33,060 --> 00:07:38,100 S2: fragility of people today is far deeper than the emotional 141 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:41,900 S2: fragility of people. 40 years ago, 45, 35 years ago. 142 00:07:42,580 --> 00:07:47,220 S2: It's the unwinding of faith in God. Removing God as 143 00:07:47,220 --> 00:07:53,250 S2: the foundation of a life produces fragility. Divorce produces fragility. 144 00:07:53,850 --> 00:07:57,090 S2: The sexual revolution back then began in the 60s there 145 00:07:57,090 --> 00:08:00,850 S2: and continued on and has continued produces fragility because there's 146 00:08:00,850 --> 00:08:03,890 S2: a lack of commitment, a lack of the security that 147 00:08:03,890 --> 00:08:08,610 S2: comes from commitment that has just eroded the emotional strength 148 00:08:08,730 --> 00:08:11,290 S2: of so many of our citizens in this great country 149 00:08:11,290 --> 00:08:11,930 S2: of ours. 150 00:08:13,010 --> 00:08:17,810 S1: The other difference is, I think that back then you 151 00:08:17,810 --> 00:08:21,250 S1: had atheists and agnostics and people who were just shouting 152 00:08:21,250 --> 00:08:23,290 S1: at you and pushing you, trying to make you a fool. 153 00:08:23,610 --> 00:08:27,010 S1: On the college campus today, there are more people who 154 00:08:27,010 --> 00:08:30,250 S1: would say they are Christians who are coming to you. 155 00:08:30,250 --> 00:08:31,410 S1: Is that right, Stuart? 156 00:08:32,650 --> 00:08:36,490 S3: Yes, that's exactly right. Because the revival, you're spot on. 157 00:08:36,690 --> 00:08:38,370 S3: There's more and more. And that, you know, there's a 158 00:08:38,410 --> 00:08:41,810 S3: huge blessing in that because we hopefully, by the Holy 159 00:08:41,809 --> 00:08:44,570 S3: Spirit's power, get to give them some tools for the 160 00:08:44,570 --> 00:08:47,690 S3: toolbox when it comes to evangelism and defending the faith. 161 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,520 S3: But the potential downside sometimes is there's a little bit 162 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,240 S3: of a tribe mentality. And so there could be a 163 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,479 S3: few hundred, maybe even a couple thousand at times Christians 164 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,960 S3: out there. And so the atheists and people of other 165 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,880 S3: faiths will be a little slower to want to debate 166 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,680 S3: and dialogue. So we have a little bit of our 167 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:09,920 S3: work cut out for us when it comes to really 168 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,520 S3: encouraging them to come to the front. But when they do, 169 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,160 S3: it's it's a great time. 170 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,960 S1: Yes. Okay. So I want to ask both of you 171 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,400 S1: a bunch of questions, but one of them is when 172 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,280 S1: you go out, when you speak on college campuses, what 173 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:29,080 S1: is success to you? Because in some people's minds it 174 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,840 S1: would be, well, conversion. You know, you get you go 175 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,800 S1: and speak to people and they get baptized and become Christians. 176 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,480 S1: What is success for the Kinect, please. And what is 177 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,000 S1: success with this book that you have put together titled 178 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:47,040 S1: Demolishing Doubt? Discover how your deepest questions can lead to 179 00:09:47,230 --> 00:09:50,429 S1: life giving faith. They're going to answer that question, and 180 00:09:50,429 --> 00:09:52,150 S1: I would love to hear from you today at the 181 00:09:52,150 --> 00:09:57,870 S1: back fence. (877) 548-3675. What are the questions that you are 182 00:09:57,870 --> 00:10:05,429 S1: asking from the younger generation? What are their doubts? (877) 548-3675. 183 00:10:14,510 --> 00:10:16,030 S4: What a treat to have Cliff and. 184 00:10:16,030 --> 00:10:20,750 S1: Stewart connect live from New Canaan, Connecticut on the program today. 185 00:10:20,990 --> 00:10:24,470 S1: Demolishing doubt just came out a couple of days ago. 186 00:10:24,750 --> 00:10:28,429 S1: This is a new evidence that demands a verdict for 187 00:10:28,429 --> 00:10:33,150 S1: a new generation, in my estimation. Uh, because Sean McDowell 188 00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:35,309 S1: is the one who writes the foreword to this, and 189 00:10:35,309 --> 00:10:37,630 S1: he talks about his own doubts, right in the foreword, 190 00:10:37,630 --> 00:10:40,309 S1: that's worth it right there. And then you get into 191 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:44,230 S1: what the Lees are talking about in demolishing doubt. Discover 192 00:10:44,230 --> 00:10:48,859 S1: how your deepest questions can lead to a life giving faith. 193 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:54,980 S1: We have it linked to Chris Fabry live.org. Chris Fabry live.org. Okay. Success. Cliff, 194 00:10:54,980 --> 00:10:58,540 S1: when you go to a college campus, what is success 195 00:10:58,540 --> 00:10:59,060 S1: to you? 196 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:03,820 S2: Luke 1610 Jesus says he is faithful in little, will 197 00:11:03,820 --> 00:11:05,980 S2: be faithful in much, and he is unfaithful or will 198 00:11:06,020 --> 00:11:09,579 S2: be in little will be unfaithful in much. So success 199 00:11:09,580 --> 00:11:14,780 S2: for us is faithfulness. Now what does that mean? Practically? 200 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:17,620 S2: It means we're going to try and connect with as 201 00:11:17,620 --> 00:11:21,660 S2: many non-Christians at a highly trafficked spot on campus as 202 00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:24,459 S2: we're able to. We're going to try and get the 203 00:11:24,460 --> 00:11:30,059 S2: dialogue going by raising provocative issues, thoughtful issues. We're going 204 00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:32,819 S2: to seek to give the best answers we possibly can 205 00:11:32,860 --> 00:11:36,420 S2: give to questions that are raised. We're going to listen 206 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:39,179 S2: hard to people. In fact, I would like to be 207 00:11:39,220 --> 00:11:42,620 S2: able to restate their question better than they stated it 208 00:11:42,620 --> 00:11:45,250 S2: in the first place to show them that I really 209 00:11:45,250 --> 00:11:49,250 S2: take them seriously and that we really are listening. And then, uh, 210 00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:51,689 S2: we're not going to hold back. We're going to let 211 00:11:51,690 --> 00:11:56,890 S2: it flow freely and strongly, and we're going to hit 212 00:11:56,890 --> 00:12:00,010 S2: these issues as hard and directly as we are possibly 213 00:12:00,050 --> 00:12:04,370 S2: able to. We're going to try and dismantle a lot 214 00:12:04,370 --> 00:12:08,170 S2: of the arguments against God, against the Bible, against Christ. 215 00:12:08,330 --> 00:12:11,770 S2: We will dismantle them as effectively as we can, and 216 00:12:11,770 --> 00:12:13,969 S2: then we will try and present the solid evidence that 217 00:12:14,010 --> 00:12:16,610 S2: indeed God is real and Christ is risen from the 218 00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:17,809 S2: dead and alive today. 219 00:12:19,650 --> 00:12:23,450 S1: Nowhere in that answer did you say, I'm going to 220 00:12:23,450 --> 00:12:25,929 S1: get a gotcha in there. I'm going to make sure 221 00:12:25,929 --> 00:12:29,410 S1: that this person looks foolish. And because we're on the 222 00:12:29,410 --> 00:12:32,850 S1: winning side and they're on the losing side, that's not 223 00:12:32,850 --> 00:12:34,450 S1: a part of the equation, is it? 224 00:12:35,450 --> 00:12:39,250 S2: That kind of triumphalism is wrong, I feel. I don't 225 00:12:39,250 --> 00:12:41,650 S2: think Christ did that. Christ was asked a lot of 226 00:12:41,650 --> 00:12:46,120 S2: questions in the New Testament. And Jesus asked a boatload 227 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,840 S2: of questions in the New Testament, and it was always 228 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,360 S2: with the intent to really speak to people's hearts and 229 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,959 S2: minds and wills. And it was always done respectfully, but 230 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,880 S2: very astutely and very shrewdly. So we try to use 231 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,920 S2: that as well. But no, this is not a competition 232 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,840 S2: where we're trying to put people down and win. Then 233 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,720 S2: that that degenerates into an ego battle. And that's about 234 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,520 S2: the last thing God calls us to do. 235 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,520 S1: Yeah. Okay. So Stewart's success, whether it's on the campus 236 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,280 S1: or you're putting together what you do on the campus, 237 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:19,360 S1: what does it look like? 238 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,959 S3: I just have always seen it as knocking the blinders 239 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,920 S3: off of the most strident skeptics that come by. You know, 240 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,800 S3: some of the profanities that the guys scream at us 241 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,479 S3: who are behind the crowd when they're walking to class. 242 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,439 S3: It's those kind of guys that I hope at the 243 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,280 S3: end of a typical Wednesday afternoon will come back at 244 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,070 S3: the end of class and stop, even if it's just 245 00:13:44,070 --> 00:13:48,190 S3: for five minutes, and perhaps even come up to us 246 00:13:48,190 --> 00:13:50,870 S3: when we finish. If they stick around longer and say, hey, 247 00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:53,590 S3: I apologize when I was screaming that you guys are 248 00:13:54,030 --> 00:13:58,150 S3: this kind of Christian fundamentalist and believe this, I did 249 00:13:58,150 --> 00:14:01,350 S3: not know that you're talking about some type of gospel 250 00:14:01,350 --> 00:14:05,309 S3: and some type of Jesus who actually believes and loves 251 00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:09,270 S3: all people, even his enemies, and welcomes the outcast. So 252 00:14:09,270 --> 00:14:11,670 S3: that's my and not exactly like you said, Chris. Not 253 00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:15,429 S3: necessarily a conversion. Thank heaven we have social media because 254 00:14:15,429 --> 00:14:17,870 S3: we have a lot more conversions now, because people are 255 00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:21,190 S3: crazy enough to listen and watch us on loop on 256 00:14:21,230 --> 00:14:26,070 S3: YouTube videos when they're driving long drives. But before social media, 257 00:14:26,070 --> 00:14:28,430 S3: we did not see many conversions at all. But for me, 258 00:14:28,430 --> 00:14:30,270 S3: it's just that pebble in the shoe that I'd love 259 00:14:30,270 --> 00:14:33,310 S3: to leave in the stride and Skeptics shoe. 260 00:14:33,830 --> 00:14:36,950 S1: Do you believe that there is revival going on? I 261 00:14:36,950 --> 00:14:40,030 S1: see a lot of these baptisms on college campuses. You know, 262 00:14:40,070 --> 00:14:43,340 S1: the the swim team or the basketball team or softball 263 00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:46,300 S1: team or whoever it is. Is that what you see, Stuart? 264 00:14:47,660 --> 00:14:50,820 S3: Well, it's so quickly happening. Chris. That's the amazing part. 265 00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:54,540 S3: I emailed back and forth some with Christian Smith, the 266 00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:58,660 S3: great sociologist there at Notre Dame, and he wrote a 267 00:14:58,660 --> 00:15:02,420 S3: book recently on, I think the title is The Secularization 268 00:15:02,420 --> 00:15:05,220 S3: of America and Why America has become Why Religion has 269 00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:07,900 S3: Become Obsolete. And so I spoke with him and I said, hey, 270 00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:10,500 S3: me and my dad are seeing the opposite on college campus. 271 00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:13,420 S3: And he said, no way is that anecdotal or beyond that. 272 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:16,340 S3: And so, you know, we we spoke a lot with 273 00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:21,180 S3: Charlie Kirk about this one, Logan Paul, um, Fox Nation, 274 00:15:21,180 --> 00:15:23,660 S3: Fox and Friends. So this is the number one question 275 00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:26,740 S3: we really get. And I think that I love that 276 00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:30,540 S3: everybody's asking it. And I think statistically we absolutely are 277 00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:33,060 S3: seeing it occur. I don't think it's just a great surge. 278 00:15:33,220 --> 00:15:36,300 S3: I think it's real revival going on. And just about 279 00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:39,810 S3: every single student ministry we see on college campuses is 280 00:15:39,810 --> 00:15:44,330 S3: growing outside of maybe, you know, one Ivy League or something. 281 00:15:44,810 --> 00:15:49,010 S3: So I think I think the reason for it is one, 282 00:15:49,010 --> 00:15:53,370 S3: because the depression, anxiety rates are so high. Kids want 283 00:15:53,410 --> 00:15:58,210 S3: to find some type of mooring and anchor two, they 284 00:15:58,210 --> 00:16:01,650 S3: want to find joy within a community. There's so much 285 00:16:01,690 --> 00:16:03,650 S3: isolation and loneliness out there. They want to find some 286 00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:06,050 S3: type of joy. Three coming out of Covid, there was 287 00:16:06,050 --> 00:16:11,010 S3: so much suffering and fear around sickness that that pushed 288 00:16:11,010 --> 00:16:13,930 S3: them towards something. Hey, is there something more beyond this life? 289 00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:19,850 S3: Five would be moral relativism and how they've seen the 290 00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:23,050 S3: moral moorings and objectivity get knocked out, the underpinnings knocked 291 00:16:23,050 --> 00:16:25,810 S3: out from from under us in our nation today. So 292 00:16:25,810 --> 00:16:29,370 S3: Judeo-Christian values are fading, and there's more than that. But 293 00:16:29,370 --> 00:16:31,170 S3: those are the main ones that I that I think 294 00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:34,730 S3: are causing this great revival. And I don't see this 295 00:16:34,730 --> 00:16:37,410 S3: as a trend. I was fearful at first when some frats, 296 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,600 S3: and some parents came to me and said, oh, Stuart, 297 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,400 S3: you know, this might just be a trendy niche thing, right? 298 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,960 S3: And I said, well, I'm fearful of that. But that 299 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,080 S3: was a year ago. And we've seen just the revival 300 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,040 S3: continue this year. So the Holy Spirit's moving. 301 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,200 S1: That's good news. And the book is going to help 302 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,360 S1: you as you read it, or somebody that, you know, 303 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,040 S1: who's gone through this struggle, an internal struggle, what the 304 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,760 S1: necklace believe is. Doubt is a good thing. Questioning your 305 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,240 S1: faith is a good thing. Demolishing doubt is our featured 306 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:15,320 S1: resource today@kris.org. Stuart mentioned Charlie Kirk cliff and I want 307 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,520 S1: to know from you, has what has changed since Charlie's 308 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,000 S1: murder for you? 309 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,399 S2: Well, it's soon after Charlie was murdered, Frank Turek, who 310 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,320 S2: was on the board there with Charlie of Turning Point 311 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,639 S2: USA and who was a good friend and mentor to Charlie, 312 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,480 S2: called us and said, please don't go outside anymore. Go inside. 313 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,200 S2: We're taking all our TP USA meetings and putting them indoors. 314 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,800 S2: And so that's probably the most visible thing that you 315 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,320 S2: can see. That's different since Charlie's shooting last September, is 316 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,960 S2: that we, uh, were are inside with security pretty heightened. 317 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,040 S2: But we're praying hard and thinking about going back outside. 318 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,360 S2: And if so, how to do that, especially with security. 319 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:07,600 S1: Any, uh, could any of the revival be attributed to 320 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,960 S1: that event and the shock waves that it sent and 321 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,080 S1: the questions that a lot of people are asking? 322 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,080 S2: Well, you're right, that definitely sent some shock waves, and 323 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,840 S2: it forced people to start asking what is worth living for, 324 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,200 S2: what is worth dying for, what is worth fighting for? 325 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,920 S2: And that pulled people out of a type of cynicism. 326 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,720 S2: That said, let's just make a joke of everything. And 327 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,190 S2: it forced people to start taking, uh, Both faith in 328 00:18:36,190 --> 00:18:40,750 S2: Christ and, uh, applying your faith to the political scene. 329 00:18:40,910 --> 00:18:44,830 S2: More seriously, it was good to see a type of 330 00:18:44,830 --> 00:18:47,389 S2: seriousness come to a lot of students in their thinking 331 00:18:47,390 --> 00:18:50,389 S2: about Christ and their thinking about God. As a result 332 00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:52,630 S2: of the horrible, tragic death of Charlie Kirk. 333 00:18:53,030 --> 00:18:53,430 S1: Yeah. 334 00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:53,990 S4: Stewart. 335 00:18:53,990 --> 00:18:56,270 S1: What did that do to you? Because I saw the 336 00:18:56,270 --> 00:18:59,229 S1: video of you and your dad with Charlie as he 337 00:18:59,230 --> 00:19:02,830 S1: was kind of interviewing the two of you. What did 338 00:19:02,830 --> 00:19:05,310 S1: that do to you on a soul level? 339 00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:10,510 S3: Yeah. Just being a young dad like Charlie was just 340 00:19:10,510 --> 00:19:13,590 S3: a lot of denial at first, and then a lot 341 00:19:13,630 --> 00:19:16,869 S3: of sadness. I remember crying on my couch when I 342 00:19:16,869 --> 00:19:22,550 S3: first saw it and then just turning to rage. And 343 00:19:22,590 --> 00:19:26,510 S3: so I think I hit every emotion there. We were 344 00:19:26,510 --> 00:19:28,710 S3: on a number of his podcasts. He took us to 345 00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:32,630 S3: his headquarters, had to speak at his church. And, and 346 00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:35,580 S3: so we knew him quite well. And and just seeing 347 00:19:35,619 --> 00:19:39,340 S3: that I believe his kids were there even I think 348 00:19:39,340 --> 00:19:44,100 S3: that really rocked rocked me at another level. And, and yet, 349 00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:47,419 S3: especially his last year of life, I was very impressed 350 00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:50,580 S3: with how biblical he was in a lot of his messaging. 351 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:56,260 S1: Yeah. And there's no question that he was also political, 352 00:19:56,260 --> 00:19:58,100 S1: that one of the things that he did, he talked 353 00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:01,300 S1: about politics and, you know, what was going on. But 354 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:05,140 S1: any time the conversation or the question came to a 355 00:20:05,140 --> 00:20:09,859 S1: spiritual took a spiritual turn, he didn't hold back. Cliff, 356 00:20:09,859 --> 00:20:10,340 S1: did he? 357 00:20:11,660 --> 00:20:13,980 S2: Absolutely not. And one of the things I respected about 358 00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:15,979 S2: him was when we spoke at the first conference he 359 00:20:15,980 --> 00:20:19,060 S2: invited us to, we had to sign a paper that said, 360 00:20:19,060 --> 00:20:22,460 S2: we're not going to endorse any politician or any political party. 361 00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:26,780 S2: And I complimented him and thanked him so much that 362 00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:29,780 S2: he was not buying into Christian nationalism in any way. 363 00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:33,250 S2: He was deeply rooted in his faith in Christ, deeply 364 00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:36,010 S2: rooted in the scriptures. And then he sought to take 365 00:20:36,050 --> 00:20:39,770 S2: the ethical positions that God reveals through the Bible and 366 00:20:39,770 --> 00:20:43,129 S2: apply them to the political situation. And I thought he 367 00:20:43,130 --> 00:20:46,410 S2: did quite a good job of that. But he did 368 00:20:46,410 --> 00:20:50,970 S2: not say that America was the greatest country. He basically 369 00:20:50,970 --> 00:20:55,410 S2: communicated that when America follows Jesus, we are a great country. 370 00:20:55,410 --> 00:20:58,370 S2: And when we turn our backs on Jesus Christ, we 371 00:20:58,369 --> 00:21:02,730 S2: turn ugly pretty fast. So I appreciated that kind of, uh, 372 00:21:02,770 --> 00:21:06,209 S2: tempered realism on his part, that type of humility. I 373 00:21:06,210 --> 00:21:07,530 S2: think that goes a long way. 374 00:21:08,450 --> 00:21:10,810 S1: One of the things that you do, Cliff, when you're 375 00:21:10,810 --> 00:21:13,810 S1: on the campus and the people are asking you questions 376 00:21:13,810 --> 00:21:18,490 S1: and pushing back you and you'll correct them, you'll say, 377 00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:22,450 S1: when did I say that? Meaning they'll say, you think 378 00:21:22,450 --> 00:21:25,050 S1: the Bible is the word of God. And and then 379 00:21:25,050 --> 00:21:27,090 S1: they'll go on and you'll stop. Wait, wait, wait. When 380 00:21:27,090 --> 00:21:30,130 S1: did you hear me say that? I've never said in this. 381 00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:33,080 S1: In this context, the Bible is the Word of God. 382 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:34,200 S1: AM I getting that right? 383 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,679 S2: Yes you are. What I'm pushing at is I want 384 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,200 S2: students to read the Bible for themselves, and I don't 385 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,520 S2: want them to read it because I've intimidated them or 386 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,840 S2: forced them in any way to think that the Bible 387 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,959 S2: is the Word of God. Instead, I want them to 388 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,600 S2: read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as 389 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:59,000 S2: historically reliable. Then, and I'm more than willing to go 390 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,600 S2: with them through what is the evidence that the Gospels 391 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,960 S2: are historically reliable? That you get an accurate picture of 392 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,359 S2: Jesus by reading the Gospels. Then the next question is, 393 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,320 S2: does the historical evidence of his life, teachings, death, and 394 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,520 S2: resurrection point to his trustworthiness? And I think the overwhelming 395 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,719 S2: historical evidence points directly in that direction. And then the 396 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,560 S2: next question is, should I put my faith in Christ? 397 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,720 S2: And if so, how do I do that? So that's 398 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,960 S2: the progression that I take students through. And then after 399 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,189 S2: a person puts their faith in Christ when they experience 400 00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:35,190 S2: the trustworthiness of Christ in their lives, then I think 401 00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:38,189 S2: it's a very reasonable step. The next step, which is 402 00:22:38,350 --> 00:22:40,270 S2: indeed the Bible, is more than just a great book 403 00:22:40,270 --> 00:22:43,150 S2: of literature. It is the inspired word of God. 404 00:22:43,910 --> 00:22:46,149 S1: Have you always had this voice when you were in 405 00:22:46,150 --> 00:22:48,310 S1: like the third grade? Did you stand up and did 406 00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:50,710 S1: you say this? Did you speak this kind of way? 407 00:22:51,950 --> 00:22:54,790 S2: I don't know. I can't remember what I spoke as 408 00:22:54,790 --> 00:22:56,469 S2: a third grader, brother. I'm not sure. 409 00:22:57,310 --> 00:23:01,070 S1: Well, I and what you just did there is what 410 00:23:01,109 --> 00:23:03,550 S1: a a really good professor of mine would do. He 411 00:23:03,550 --> 00:23:05,070 S1: would stop and he would say, well, what do I 412 00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:06,830 S1: mean by that? And then he'd go on and he'd 413 00:23:06,869 --> 00:23:09,550 S1: answer his own question. So you do the same thing. 414 00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:13,190 S1: You you ask the question, you make the statement, and 415 00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:15,270 S1: then you ask the question, well, what's the next step 416 00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:17,629 S1: of that? So that you are I don't know if 417 00:23:17,630 --> 00:23:20,510 S1: it's Socratic or not, but you're just leading people through 418 00:23:20,510 --> 00:23:25,430 S1: a logical explanation of what it is that you believe 419 00:23:25,470 --> 00:23:28,699 S1: happened historically. Stuart, do you pick up the same thing? 420 00:23:29,820 --> 00:23:34,260 S3: Exactly? Yeah. I think you see what's going on today 421 00:23:34,780 --> 00:23:41,060 S3: and what happens when you shred, destroy, forget the history 422 00:23:41,060 --> 00:23:45,380 S3: of especially a nation and all the dangers of that. 423 00:23:45,380 --> 00:23:47,139 S3: And so I, I see what my dad does is 424 00:23:47,140 --> 00:23:50,860 S3: he takes a obviously he's emotional, but he tries to 425 00:23:50,859 --> 00:23:54,740 S3: remove the emotional persuasion as much as possible to just 426 00:23:54,740 --> 00:23:59,300 S3: give the facts of the historical Christ, the claims, any 427 00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:01,500 S3: and all about his life, his teachings, and his death 428 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:05,979 S3: and resurrection. And so when you remove the emotionalism, you 429 00:24:05,980 --> 00:24:08,659 S3: still have the intensity, but remove the emotionalism that I 430 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:14,619 S3: think too many pastors can dip into. Then. Then the skeptics, 431 00:24:14,619 --> 00:24:17,820 S3: especially the smart ones at Ivy leagues, will stop and say, huh, okay, 432 00:24:17,859 --> 00:24:19,619 S3: we're really grappling with something here. 433 00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:24,980 S1: Isn't the isn't the secret sauce that while you're out there, 434 00:24:25,220 --> 00:24:29,169 S1: you really care about the students that you're talking with. 435 00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:32,290 S1: And I read that in the book as well. You 436 00:24:32,290 --> 00:24:35,570 S1: really care about what they're going through and the questions 437 00:24:35,570 --> 00:24:36,330 S1: they're asking. 438 00:24:37,250 --> 00:24:41,330 S3: Yeah, I, I gave in the book a short story 439 00:24:41,330 --> 00:24:44,330 S3: on this woman who came up to us and just 440 00:24:44,570 --> 00:24:48,889 S3: was bawling her eyes out, saying how the gospel we 441 00:24:48,930 --> 00:24:53,449 S3: were presenting. And obviously it's not the gospel we wrote is, 442 00:24:53,490 --> 00:24:59,410 S3: is one that healed her emotional mental health. And we 443 00:24:59,410 --> 00:25:02,530 S3: just had a long embrace. And I made fun of 444 00:25:02,530 --> 00:25:05,770 S3: my dad not too long ago because he kissed the 445 00:25:05,810 --> 00:25:07,690 S3: top of the head of some student. I don't even 446 00:25:07,690 --> 00:25:09,450 S3: think he realized he did it, but it was because 447 00:25:09,450 --> 00:25:11,929 S3: he was so proud of the guy for making the 448 00:25:11,930 --> 00:25:14,890 S3: next step in faith. And so I think, you know, 449 00:25:14,930 --> 00:25:18,850 S3: whether it's hugs or whether it's just words of encouragement 450 00:25:19,210 --> 00:25:21,250 S3: or whether, you know, there's a lot of these, I 451 00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:23,050 S3: don't know if you Chris, I'm not sure if you're 452 00:25:23,050 --> 00:25:26,560 S3: aware of all these merch companies now. right? So it's 453 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,920 S3: like endless amounts of college students are dropping out of college, 454 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,040 S3: which I do not recommend to start their own clothing companies, 455 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,400 S3: and they'll just throw clothing at you while you're out 456 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,600 S3: there speaking. And so it's very encouraging. And then we 457 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,400 S3: get to talk because there's a Bible verse on it. 458 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,840 S3: And so there's different ways to connect with these students. 459 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,480 S3: But we love him. We care for him, that's for sure. 460 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,440 S1: The connect lives are connecting. Cliff and Stewart demolishing doubts, 461 00:25:49,440 --> 00:26:04,920 S1: our featured resource more straight ahead. Cliff and Stewart Connect 462 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,600 S1: have written a really transformative book. It will be something 463 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,320 S1: that a believer who has been a believer for a 464 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,880 S1: long time will get you deeper into what you really believe, 465 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,040 S1: or at least what I hope you really believe. But 466 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,000 S1: it will also take the the doubter, the questioner, the 467 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,510 S1: skeptic on this ride through what they've done. I can't 468 00:26:26,750 --> 00:26:29,510 S1: tell you how much I appreciate what they've done on 469 00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:33,389 S1: social media and the clips that I see in these conversations. 470 00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:36,470 S1: Every time when I see Cliff or Stewart, they're having 471 00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:40,470 S1: these conversations. It gives me courage in my own life. 472 00:26:40,750 --> 00:26:42,590 S1: The book has only been out a couple of days. 473 00:26:42,590 --> 00:26:47,550 S1: Demolishing doubt. Discover how your deepest questions can lead to 474 00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:54,230 S1: life giving faith. It's our featured resource@chris.org. Chris fabriclive.org. Okay, Cliff, 475 00:26:54,270 --> 00:26:58,070 S1: take this into the world of the person who's listening today, 476 00:26:58,470 --> 00:27:01,270 S1: who's at the job, and he's got a co-worker and 477 00:27:01,270 --> 00:27:04,990 S1: he's really been praying for him or her and has 478 00:27:04,990 --> 00:27:07,270 S1: been asking, God, give me an opportunity to have a 479 00:27:07,270 --> 00:27:12,710 S1: conversation about deeper things. And then it comes up, it happens. 480 00:27:13,070 --> 00:27:16,390 S1: And then they seize up. They I don't know where 481 00:27:16,430 --> 00:27:21,750 S1: to go now. A little earlier said, listen hard to people. 482 00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:24,699 S1: Is that part of the secret sauce? 483 00:27:25,660 --> 00:27:30,179 S2: Great question. All right. First point is learn to ask questions. 484 00:27:30,380 --> 00:27:32,980 S2: What type of questions? The questions that I like to 485 00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:35,220 S2: ask people are, first of all, some people think there's 486 00:27:35,260 --> 00:27:38,500 S2: a meaning to life. What do you think? Second question. 487 00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:42,820 S2: Some people believe God exists. What do you think? Third question. 488 00:27:42,820 --> 00:27:46,220 S2: What do you think a real Christian is? Now listen 489 00:27:46,220 --> 00:27:48,300 S2: to the answers to those questions because they're going to 490 00:27:48,300 --> 00:27:52,260 S2: be fascinating. The variety you're going to get. Fourth question. 491 00:27:52,260 --> 00:27:54,859 S2: Some people believe that Jesus rose from the dead. What 492 00:27:54,859 --> 00:27:58,980 S2: do you think? Learn to ask questions. And by asking 493 00:27:58,980 --> 00:28:02,699 S2: questions you're feeling around the rim of a life. And 494 00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:05,660 S2: eventually you're going to come to some cracks. And it's 495 00:28:05,660 --> 00:28:08,140 S2: right there at those cracks that if they are then 496 00:28:08,140 --> 00:28:10,500 S2: beginning to turn to you and ask questions, you're going 497 00:28:10,540 --> 00:28:13,179 S2: to have the opportunity to communicate Christ in a way 498 00:28:13,180 --> 00:28:16,500 S2: that's highly relevant to them. So that's the first point. 499 00:28:16,540 --> 00:28:20,780 S2: Ask questions. The second point is, remember, one of the 500 00:28:20,780 --> 00:28:22,930 S2: best answers that I give and that you could give 501 00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:26,610 S2: is I do not know. Why do I say that? 502 00:28:27,050 --> 00:28:30,570 S2: Because it's honesty. And I think it's really dishonest to 503 00:28:30,609 --> 00:28:35,370 S2: make up answers to difficult questions. I do not know 504 00:28:35,369 --> 00:28:41,170 S2: communicates humility. It also communicates reality. And reality is. None 505 00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:44,210 S2: of us have all the answers to all the difficult questions. 506 00:28:44,810 --> 00:28:48,250 S2: But something that I find great comfort in is nobody 507 00:28:48,250 --> 00:28:52,450 S2: over the past 2000 years has asked a question that 508 00:28:52,450 --> 00:28:56,690 S2: has knocked the underpinnings out from beneath faith in Christ. 509 00:28:57,170 --> 00:28:59,930 S2: There is no question that's going to come up in 510 00:28:59,930 --> 00:29:04,850 S2: your discussion that I think is going to be totally new. No, 511 00:29:04,850 --> 00:29:07,130 S2: all the questions have been asked, just in different times, 512 00:29:07,130 --> 00:29:10,690 S2: different places by different individuals. But just be assured that 513 00:29:10,690 --> 00:29:13,530 S2: nobody's asked that question. So it's not going to come 514 00:29:13,530 --> 00:29:16,570 S2: up in your conversation, but there are going to ask questions. 515 00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:18,530 S2: You're not going to have the faintest idea how to answer. 516 00:29:18,610 --> 00:29:21,960 S2: So be ready. I do not know. But next week 517 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,000 S2: let's get together again and I'm going to go out 518 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,840 S2: and find the best answer I can get to you. 519 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,080 S2: And we'll resume our conversation next week. Third point is 520 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,440 S2: be open to really challenging a person by asking them 521 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,920 S2: hard questions like, what are you living for? And what 522 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,400 S2: is the evidence that what you are living for is true? Now, 523 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,440 S2: those can be rather unnerving questions, but after a while, 524 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,920 S2: when you're dialoguing with someone, when I'm dialoguing with someone, 525 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,520 S2: I really like to ask those two questions because often 526 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,000 S2: a person is hiding behind a smoke screen. You know, 527 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,120 S2: I don't really think that this is a solid issue, 528 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,040 S2: this faith in Christ. I think it's a fantasy, and 529 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,200 S2: I don't really have faith like you Christians do. You know, 530 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,080 S2: in reality, we all have faith and in reality you 531 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,840 S2: have faith. I have faith. The only difference between us 532 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,920 S2: is the object of our faith. The object of my 533 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,400 S2: faith is Jesus Christ. The object of your faith is 534 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,680 S2: something or someone else. So ask those questions when you 535 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,000 S2: feel comfortable, when it could be helpful for that person 536 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,520 S2: to realize. Indeed, I do have faith. Now I better 537 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,360 S2: examine whether I should change the object of my faith 538 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:41,160 S2: from money, sex, pleasure, career, pragmatism myself to Jesus Christ. 539 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,680 S1: Okay, so Stuart, have you experienced this where you see 540 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,760 S1: the person in front of you who is asking you 541 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,160 S1: the question, you realize that the question that they've asked 542 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,400 S1: you is not their real question. And if if you have, 543 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,160 S1: how do you get to that? 544 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:06,320 S3: Oh, yeah, that's a great question. I so at Yale, 545 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,720 S3: we have this clip. It's funny, Chris, this clip on 546 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,400 S3: TikTok and Instagram, it has well over 20 million views. 547 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,710 S3: And it gets right at this question you're asking. It's 548 00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:21,590 S3: a student from Yale, and he's going on and on 549 00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:24,590 S3: about how the idea of Jesus being God is just ridiculous. 550 00:31:24,590 --> 00:31:28,510 S3: And then the resurrection. And I turned and I looked 551 00:31:28,510 --> 00:31:32,110 S3: at him and I said, hey, look, is this really 552 00:31:32,110 --> 00:31:37,310 S3: your issue? And after pausing for five seconds and then 553 00:31:37,510 --> 00:31:41,470 S3: arguing with trying to argue with me, he finally said, 554 00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:43,709 S3: all right, fine, fine. It's an ethical issue I have 555 00:31:43,710 --> 00:31:45,750 S3: with Christianity. I want to sleep around as much as 556 00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:47,670 S3: possible so I would never become a Christian. I hate 557 00:31:47,670 --> 00:31:49,870 S3: that Jesus says you have to sleep with only one 558 00:31:49,870 --> 00:31:54,550 S3: woman your whole life. And so no, I am definitely 559 00:31:54,550 --> 00:31:58,950 S3: not Jesus. I cannot read hearts perfectly. But you know, 560 00:31:58,990 --> 00:32:01,150 S3: the Holy Spirit's moving out there and I think we 561 00:32:01,150 --> 00:32:05,270 S3: can start, especially if you're praying. It's obviously hard to 562 00:32:05,310 --> 00:32:08,670 S3: pray while you're in a debate, but there are moments 563 00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:11,630 S3: that you can settle in and say, you know, Lord, 564 00:32:11,630 --> 00:32:13,430 S3: speak to me here. I'm trying to figure out what 565 00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:16,620 S3: exactly this person's where are they coming from? And so 566 00:32:16,620 --> 00:32:19,980 S3: I think with this guy, he walked away and the 567 00:32:20,020 --> 00:32:23,100 S3: crowd laughed. And not no, not in a mocking way, 568 00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:25,740 S3: because he laughed as well. But everybody got a good 569 00:32:25,740 --> 00:32:27,540 S3: chuckle out of it because they realized, wow, this is 570 00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:30,620 S3: all smoke screens. It's all smoke and mirrors. Yeah. And 571 00:32:30,620 --> 00:32:32,580 S3: so yeah, trying to read that, that's kind of the 572 00:32:32,580 --> 00:32:35,180 S3: volitional side. I would say there's the intellectual, the emotional 573 00:32:35,180 --> 00:32:38,180 S3: and the volitional intellectual is truly, I'm out here because 574 00:32:38,180 --> 00:32:40,620 S3: I want the evidence. The emotional is I've been burnt 575 00:32:40,620 --> 00:32:43,300 S3: by suffering. And so you got to see through their 576 00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:46,940 S3: intellectual smokescreens to realize, no, they had a brother or 577 00:32:46,940 --> 00:32:48,780 S3: sister that passed away. And so they're angry at this 578 00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:51,220 S3: God who supposedly is a good God. Or then thirdly 579 00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:52,980 S3: is the volitional one, which is what this kid was 580 00:32:52,980 --> 00:32:55,500 S3: dealing with, which is, don't you dare tell me that 581 00:32:55,500 --> 00:32:57,420 S3: I have to give my identity over to you or 582 00:32:57,540 --> 00:32:59,620 S3: or that I have to live a certain way. So 583 00:32:59,660 --> 00:33:01,540 S3: looking through that is tough but important. 584 00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:04,739 S1: Demolishing doubt is the book by the Connect Lives. It's 585 00:33:04,740 --> 00:33:10,500 S1: our featured resource. Go to Chris fabry.org. Cliff, on that point, 586 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:14,420 S1: I've heard this through the years that usually it's like 587 00:33:14,490 --> 00:33:17,770 S1: you pigeonhole people. It's like if you're this intellectual and 588 00:33:17,770 --> 00:33:22,890 S1: you're an atheist or agnostic, your real problem is morality. 589 00:33:22,930 --> 00:33:25,730 S1: You want to sleep around or do whatever. That was 590 00:33:25,730 --> 00:33:28,530 S1: true in the you know, the fellow from Yale was 591 00:33:28,530 --> 00:33:31,930 S1: just being honest about, you know, what his proclivities were. 592 00:33:32,130 --> 00:33:35,090 S1: But that's not true for every intellectual who has a 593 00:33:35,090 --> 00:33:36,890 S1: problem with the gospel, right? 594 00:33:37,970 --> 00:33:41,970 S2: Correct. It's not true of everybody, but it's surprising how many. 595 00:33:42,010 --> 00:33:42,970 S2: It is true of. 596 00:33:45,050 --> 00:33:48,290 S1: So how do you discern that and talk about. Have 597 00:33:48,290 --> 00:33:51,330 S1: you ever had this conversation with somebody on the campus 598 00:33:51,730 --> 00:33:55,970 S1: and you feel this, the Holy Spirit drawing you to 599 00:33:56,010 --> 00:33:59,450 S1: something that surprised you, that you went that direction? 600 00:34:01,130 --> 00:34:03,770 S2: Oh, absolutely. I mean, my wife and I used to 601 00:34:03,770 --> 00:34:06,570 S2: laugh about it in the early years. You know, a 602 00:34:06,610 --> 00:34:08,610 S2: question would be asked, and I didn't have the faintest 603 00:34:08,610 --> 00:34:10,650 S2: idea how to answer it. And my wife knew I 604 00:34:10,650 --> 00:34:13,480 S2: didn't have the faintest idea how to answer it. but 605 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,040 S2: the Holy Spirit would give me an answer to respond 606 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,160 S2: to that person. But remember, often my best answer is 607 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,680 S2: I do not know. And I think that that kind 608 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,200 S2: of vulnerability and honesty is winsome for a lot of 609 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,160 S2: people who think that a Christian is someone who claims 610 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,439 S2: to have all the answers to all the difficult questions. 611 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,799 S2: Well guess what? Nobody has all the answers to all 612 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,120 S2: the difficult questions. And if you think about knowledge in 613 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,920 S2: any field, be it biology, chemistry, physics, history, psychology, mathematics. 614 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,200 S2: Nobody has all the answers to all the questions. In 615 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,279 S2: other words, nobody has exhaustive knowledge in any area of knowledge. 616 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,080 S1: Yes. Okay. 617 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,280 S2: So that frees us up a lot. 618 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,759 S1: So you, you know, millions of views. You got the 619 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,239 S1: tick tock thing going. You got Instagram. I see on 620 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,680 S1: social media all the time. You've got this. You've got 621 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,720 S1: the growing ministry. You're going out, uh, many times during 622 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,799 S1: the year and you're recording these. So you come up 623 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,390 S1: with a book idea. Was there demolishing doubt? Was there 624 00:35:13,390 --> 00:35:17,469 S1: a defining moment when you realized we need this kind 625 00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:21,029 S1: of resource to aid what we're doing? Stuart. 626 00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:26,590 S3: Yes. It's funny. Some students were putting up videos saying, 627 00:35:26,590 --> 00:35:29,470 S3: oh yes, Stuart and Cliff have a book now. So 628 00:35:30,070 --> 00:35:32,470 S3: some of what they talk about when they die can 629 00:35:32,469 --> 00:35:35,709 S3: hopefully go past their lives. So I, you know, that's, 630 00:35:35,710 --> 00:35:37,750 S3: that's honestly one I know a good amount of people 631 00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:41,030 S3: write books for that reason where the information can extend 632 00:35:41,030 --> 00:35:44,110 S3: their life past their life. So, but I think even 633 00:35:44,110 --> 00:35:47,310 S3: more so, you know, there's only so much you can 634 00:35:47,710 --> 00:35:51,549 S3: really grab from social media. I think once you get 635 00:35:51,550 --> 00:35:55,230 S3: in print form or audio, where it's the full narrative, 636 00:35:55,550 --> 00:35:59,270 S3: and then there's specific areas in the text where we 637 00:35:59,270 --> 00:36:02,509 S3: give those kind of tools on, on debating debate points, 638 00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:04,669 S3: I think it's going to be a lot easier for 639 00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:08,069 S3: people to know how to evangelize, as well as kind 640 00:36:08,070 --> 00:36:12,020 S3: of know a lot of our backstory And we've got 641 00:36:12,020 --> 00:36:13,700 S3: a lot of other kind of silly stuff in there 642 00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:17,219 S3: that we try and connect with students on. And then lastly, 643 00:36:17,219 --> 00:36:19,859 S3: we really hope it helps their faith as well, not 644 00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:22,860 S3: just evangelize, but also helps their faith in, in growing. 645 00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:25,540 S3: Because there's a little bit, there's a slight devotional bent 646 00:36:25,540 --> 00:36:28,460 S3: as well in the book on how to grow your 647 00:36:28,460 --> 00:36:29,180 S3: own faith too. 648 00:36:29,420 --> 00:36:32,620 S1: Yes. Cliff, was there a tipping point for you that 649 00:36:32,620 --> 00:36:34,700 S1: you said, yeah, we need to we need to put 650 00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:35,500 S1: this together. 651 00:36:36,420 --> 00:36:39,779 S2: Yes. A wonderful gentleman who attended Grace church a bit 652 00:36:39,780 --> 00:36:42,620 S2: and then moved down to the DC area named Keith Urban, 653 00:36:43,460 --> 00:36:46,739 S2: encouraged us to write a book that had to do 654 00:36:46,739 --> 00:36:52,380 S2: with not just listing the hard questions that were confronted by. 655 00:36:53,580 --> 00:36:56,100 S2: I wrote a book back in 1986 that was that 656 00:36:56,219 --> 00:36:58,939 S2: I took the 40 most frequently asked questions and put 657 00:36:58,940 --> 00:37:02,700 S2: together the short answers that I gave, and InterVarsity press 658 00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:06,220 S2: was very kind to publish it. But Keith said to me, Cliff, 659 00:37:06,260 --> 00:37:08,620 S2: why don't you write a book this time where you 660 00:37:08,650 --> 00:37:11,290 S2: start at one spot and you and you work your 661 00:37:11,290 --> 00:37:15,250 S2: way to a conclusion. And I really appreciated his encouragement, 662 00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:19,210 S2: his prodding me to do it. And so that's what 663 00:37:19,250 --> 00:37:21,650 S2: got it going and what got the thinking going. But 664 00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:23,330 S2: basically what I did was I said, okay, what do 665 00:37:23,330 --> 00:37:25,649 S2: I do with a person who's an atheist? How do 666 00:37:25,650 --> 00:37:29,330 S2: I work them through moving from atheism to trusting the 667 00:37:29,370 --> 00:37:33,489 S2: Gospels to give us accurate historical information about Jesus. And 668 00:37:33,489 --> 00:37:37,090 S2: then once we've gotten that nailed down, what's the historical 669 00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:39,690 S2: evidence that he is reliable? And once we've gotten that down, 670 00:37:40,130 --> 00:37:43,210 S2: nail down, what is the what is real faith? What 671 00:37:43,210 --> 00:37:44,330 S2: does faith look like? 672 00:37:44,810 --> 00:37:45,250 S3: Yes. 673 00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:47,330 S1: And that's where you wind up. 674 00:37:47,770 --> 00:37:48,049 S2: In that. 675 00:37:48,050 --> 00:37:48,370 S3: Book. 676 00:37:48,610 --> 00:37:53,089 S1: There was a red bearded fellow in Austin, Texas. And 677 00:37:53,090 --> 00:37:55,330 S1: you start the book off this way and you just 678 00:37:55,330 --> 00:37:57,569 S1: kind of follow that. So I want to come back 679 00:37:57,570 --> 00:38:01,570 S1: and talk about that. If you go to chris.org, you'll 680 00:38:01,570 --> 00:38:04,610 S1: see the Connect Lee's book. Cliff and Stuart have written 681 00:38:04,610 --> 00:38:09,279 S1: Demolishing Doubt. Discover how your deepest questions can lead to 682 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,800 S1: life giving faith. Just go to Chris Fabry live.org. Chris 683 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,400 S1: Fabry live dot ORG. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. 684 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,520 S1: One of the things I really appreciate about Cliff and 685 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,080 S1: Stewart is they don't back down. They don't spike the 686 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:40,319 S1: hard conversations. They put themselves out there and they engage 687 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,880 S1: with people on a heart level about some really tough stuff. 688 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,719 S1: And in demolishing doubt, discover how your deepest questions can 689 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,560 S1: lead to life giving faith. They exhibit this. For example, 690 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,960 S1: this is how, after Sean McDowell's introduction, the book begins. 691 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,200 S1: Thanks for coming today. Although I don't think you ought 692 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,000 S1: to be here. The red bearded fellow in the straw hat. 693 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,350 S1: Sunhat drawled his words as he spoke. We have an 694 00:39:06,350 --> 00:39:09,990 S1: institution of learning here. And your stories, they're beautiful and all, 695 00:39:10,270 --> 00:39:13,790 S1: but they don't contribute to the rational discourse promoted at 696 00:39:13,790 --> 00:39:18,790 S1: this university. They're exclusionary. Cliff, do you remember him? And 697 00:39:18,790 --> 00:39:19,990 S1: take me from right there. 698 00:39:21,070 --> 00:39:23,469 S2: I don't remember him, but I remember a lot of 699 00:39:23,469 --> 00:39:27,110 S2: guys who are like him. And so, uh, where the 700 00:39:27,110 --> 00:39:32,230 S2: next step is, okay, what is the evidence that God exists? 701 00:39:32,430 --> 00:39:34,469 S2: Do you believe God exists? Do you not? If you 702 00:39:34,469 --> 00:39:38,229 S2: don't believe, why? And if you do believe, why? What 703 00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:40,870 S2: is the evidence that there is some type of God? 704 00:39:40,910 --> 00:39:42,070 S2: So that's where we start. 705 00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:46,790 S1: Stuart, where do you take him from there? 706 00:39:47,710 --> 00:39:52,910 S3: Yeah. I would try and get the understanding of that type. 707 00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:55,430 S3: Will will certainly say, hey, you guys have faith. I 708 00:39:55,430 --> 00:39:58,750 S3: don't have faith. I have more science or I have certainty. 709 00:39:59,469 --> 00:40:01,710 S3: You know, faith is a jump, a large jump away 710 00:40:01,710 --> 00:40:05,060 S3: from reason. It's the opposite of. And I would try 711 00:40:05,060 --> 00:40:09,219 S3: and challenge him and say, hey, look underneath that type 712 00:40:09,219 --> 00:40:13,180 S3: of thinking, I think I think you're off because a 713 00:40:13,219 --> 00:40:15,740 S3: lot of your assumptions when it comes to things like 714 00:40:15,860 --> 00:40:18,779 S3: human rights, when it comes to the value of a 715 00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:22,460 S3: human being, when it comes to simple things like art 716 00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:25,859 S3: and meaning and purpose. So much of what you're dealing 717 00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:28,740 S3: with in life is based off of faith. Like, why 718 00:40:28,820 --> 00:40:32,379 S3: treat somebody as if they have objective value? Why reach 719 00:40:32,380 --> 00:40:35,939 S3: out to the kid across the globe who you should 720 00:40:35,940 --> 00:40:38,740 S3: never have contact with outside of you? Helping them with 721 00:40:38,780 --> 00:40:42,620 S3: a meal? Who looks nothing like you, who doesn't help 722 00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:45,980 S3: you in any kind of way. That's all dependent on 723 00:40:45,980 --> 00:40:50,140 S3: faith and a worldview one is adopting. So that's kind 724 00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:51,900 S3: of where I would I would head with them. I'd say, 725 00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:53,820 S3: all right, well, no, it's not just us who have faith. 726 00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:55,780 S3: You're taking some big leaps with faith. 727 00:40:57,420 --> 00:41:01,299 S1: So the evidence for God, uh, what God did, did 728 00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:04,770 S1: he create the universe? What about the Bible? Why does 729 00:41:04,810 --> 00:41:08,370 S1: what it says matter to you? To all of us? 730 00:41:08,370 --> 00:41:11,610 S1: Can you trust the documents? Can you trust the New Testament? 731 00:41:11,650 --> 00:41:15,009 S1: What about other religions, other ways to God? And then 732 00:41:15,010 --> 00:41:19,810 S1: the final section is, well, about Jesus. Was Jesus. Did 733 00:41:19,810 --> 00:41:22,770 S1: he perform miracles? Was did he say he was God? 734 00:41:22,770 --> 00:41:24,890 S1: Did he claim to be God? Did he rise from 735 00:41:24,890 --> 00:41:28,370 S1: the dead? And if so, why? What's the. What difference 736 00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:32,210 S1: does that make? And at the end, Cliff, what should 737 00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:35,970 S1: I do next? How do I commit my life to Christ? 738 00:41:35,969 --> 00:41:38,170 S1: What do you say in that? For the person who's 739 00:41:38,170 --> 00:41:41,129 S1: listening here today, who wants to, you know, help their 740 00:41:41,130 --> 00:41:43,970 S1: friend or maybe themselves, what do they do to really 741 00:41:43,969 --> 00:41:45,649 S1: commit their life to Jesus? 742 00:41:47,370 --> 00:41:51,689 S2: It begins with doing a very clear analysis of my 743 00:41:51,690 --> 00:41:55,650 S2: life and realizing that at times I've done wrong and 744 00:41:55,650 --> 00:42:00,129 S2: I've experienced guilt and guilt has caused alarm system. Watch out. 745 00:42:00,130 --> 00:42:03,250 S2: You've done wrong. You need forgiveness. I mean, if there's 746 00:42:03,250 --> 00:42:06,170 S2: no such thing as sin, then the cross is irrelevant. 747 00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:09,009 S2: And I don't need to be saved. But if I 748 00:42:09,050 --> 00:42:15,609 S2: am indeed a sinner, a rebel against God's self. And 749 00:42:15,610 --> 00:42:18,489 S2: one of the biggest challenges is to communicate to people 750 00:42:18,489 --> 00:42:22,649 S2: I am a dirty, rotten sinner, because too many of 751 00:42:22,650 --> 00:42:26,290 S2: the type of guys that you've outlined here with the 752 00:42:26,290 --> 00:42:32,610 S2: Red are convinced that Christians are self-righteous turkeys who basically 753 00:42:32,610 --> 00:42:36,250 S2: believe they're better than everybody else. And when you read 754 00:42:36,250 --> 00:42:38,450 S2: the Gospels, it's real clear that one of the sins 755 00:42:38,450 --> 00:42:42,250 S2: that Christ attacked most harshly was the sin of self-righteousness. 756 00:42:42,530 --> 00:42:47,810 S2: It's basically religious arrogance. And when people begin to understand 757 00:42:47,810 --> 00:42:50,969 S2: that I'm a dirty, rotten sinner, then they begin to say, oh, okay, 758 00:42:50,969 --> 00:42:54,570 S2: well then maybe I am as well. Now to communicate 759 00:42:54,610 --> 00:42:56,930 S2: sin and that I'm a dirty, rotten sinner. I do 760 00:42:56,930 --> 00:42:59,410 S2: not mean to communicate that I've got a porn problem 761 00:42:59,410 --> 00:43:01,720 S2: and I'm thinking about cheating on my wife, and I'm 762 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,480 S2: going to steal money from the church and from the 763 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,760 S2: local bank. And that I like to tell racist jokes. No, 764 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,520 S2: I don't happen to struggle with any of that stuff. 765 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,839 S2: But I can promise you when I read that the 766 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,959 S2: purpose of life is to love God with my heart, soul, 767 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,280 S2: and mind and strength. And when I read first Corinthians 13, 768 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,439 S2: and when I put my name in the place of 769 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,800 S2: of love, then I begin to realize that I really 770 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,960 S2: am someone who does not love the way God created 771 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,960 S2: me to love. You know, Cliff is patient. Cliff is kind. 772 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,480 S2: Cliff does not envy. Cliff does not boast. Cliff is 773 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,640 S2: not proud. Cliff is not rude. Cliff is not self-seeking. 774 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,680 S2: Cliff is not easily angered. Cliff keeps no record of wrongs. 775 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,400 S2: Cliff does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. 776 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:47,320 S2: Cliff always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Cliff 777 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,920 S2: never fails. Well, that's a very convicting because obviously I 778 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,120 S2: don't live that way. I am a dirty, rotten sinner. 779 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,600 S2: And that is why I am in desperate need of 780 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,069 S2: repenting and asking Christ to forgive me. I mean, I 781 00:44:01,070 --> 00:44:04,510 S2: think American Christianity does a fairly good job making people 782 00:44:04,510 --> 00:44:08,630 S2: feel comfortable. But I think the scriptures and Christ calls 783 00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:12,150 S2: us to change and become good, to become better people, 784 00:44:12,190 --> 00:44:15,069 S2: because God is good, he's holy. And so that's why 785 00:44:15,110 --> 00:44:19,870 S2: repentance is so important. But it's, it's a tremendous challenge 786 00:44:19,870 --> 00:44:23,109 S2: to communicate repentance in a way that makes sense to 787 00:44:23,150 --> 00:44:26,350 S2: people in a way that people sees, oh, there's hope 788 00:44:26,350 --> 00:44:29,870 S2: for me. And yes, we repent because we do believe 789 00:44:29,870 --> 00:44:32,310 S2: that God can forgive us and God can actually make 790 00:44:32,310 --> 00:44:35,069 S2: us better people. So that's the first step. And then 791 00:44:35,070 --> 00:44:37,989 S2: the second step is putting your faith in Christ, which 792 00:44:37,989 --> 00:44:40,950 S2: means we're not talking about a philosophy, we're not talking 793 00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:45,710 S2: about an institution. And you're becoming institutionalized. Rather, we're talking 794 00:44:45,710 --> 00:44:49,509 S2: about trusting a personal God who actually loves you and 795 00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:52,190 S2: who has your best interests in mind. And I can 796 00:44:52,190 --> 00:44:54,790 S2: promise you, if you think heaven is just a pipe dream, 797 00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:58,580 S2: you're smoking something I don't want to smoke. Heaven is 798 00:44:58,580 --> 00:45:02,820 S2: the greatest affirmation of a human life possible. God wants 799 00:45:02,820 --> 00:45:05,859 S2: you to spend eternity with him in heaven. So when 800 00:45:05,860 --> 00:45:07,940 S2: you begin to realize that this is not just sitting 801 00:45:07,940 --> 00:45:10,339 S2: on a cloud strumming a harp for eternity, but this 802 00:45:10,340 --> 00:45:13,660 S2: is the greatest affirmation of life possible. Then all of 803 00:45:13,660 --> 00:45:16,259 S2: a sudden, faith begins to, I think, hopefully become a 804 00:45:16,260 --> 00:45:18,300 S2: little more sensible to you. 805 00:45:18,620 --> 00:45:22,820 S1: Yes. And that's all included in the new book, Demolishing 806 00:45:22,860 --> 00:45:27,020 S1: Doubt by Cliff and Stuart Connect. I think this is 807 00:45:27,020 --> 00:45:31,299 S1: worth just the conversation for the parent who's really afraid 808 00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:33,980 S1: that they have a teenager, a young person, maybe a 809 00:45:33,980 --> 00:45:38,140 S1: college student, and they're hearing these messages of doubt. I'm 810 00:45:38,140 --> 00:45:42,339 S1: not sure this is true anymore. This book, this message 811 00:45:42,340 --> 00:45:47,180 S1: from these men will encourage you to lean into their doubts, 812 00:45:47,180 --> 00:45:50,900 S1: to ask those hard questions, and then to listen hard. 813 00:45:51,380 --> 00:45:53,660 S1: Cliff and Stuart, right. At the end of the day, 814 00:45:53,700 --> 00:45:56,140 S1: we're not doing this to rack up likes or achieved 815 00:45:56,140 --> 00:46:00,050 S1: social media stardom. Don't get me wrong, we appreciate the support, 816 00:46:00,050 --> 00:46:03,650 S1: but that's never been the end goal. What ultimately matters 817 00:46:03,650 --> 00:46:08,569 S1: to us is embracing this unbelievable opportunity to engage skeptics 818 00:46:08,570 --> 00:46:14,410 S1: in thought provoking dialogue and encourage believers who struggle with doubt. 819 00:46:14,730 --> 00:46:17,689 S1: We want to empower truth seekers as they search for 820 00:46:17,690 --> 00:46:21,810 S1: life's answers and bring the good news of Jesus Christ 821 00:46:21,810 --> 00:46:25,129 S1: to the world. That's what we're really all about, and 822 00:46:25,130 --> 00:46:27,009 S1: it's evidenced in the book. If you go to Chris 823 00:46:27,050 --> 00:46:32,129 S1: fabry.org demolishing doubt, discover how your deepest questions can lead 824 00:46:32,130 --> 00:46:35,690 S1: to life giving. Faith by Cliff and Stuart connect. Lee, 825 00:46:35,690 --> 00:46:37,890 S1: Cliff and Stuart, thanks for being with us today. 826 00:46:38,690 --> 00:46:39,930 S2: Thanks for having us, Chris. 827 00:46:39,969 --> 00:46:41,210 S3: Love you Chris. Thank you. 828 00:46:41,730 --> 00:46:44,410 S1: Chris Fabry Live is a production of Moody Radio, a 829 00:46:44,410 --> 00:46:47,650 S1: Ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.