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S1: In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: Americans worshiping government over God.
S3: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S5: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1: Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
S1: Thank you for spending the hour with us. Okay. We're
S1: going to do some comparative theology. Wait. Come back. Don't
S1: run screaming from the room. In other words, you often
S1: hear me quote Dwight L Moody. Brilliant idea. It's such
S1: a great word picture. He refers to the Bible as
S1: the straight stick of truth. And when you think about it,
S1: it's brilliant, is it not because you use it as
S1: a plumb line to measure all ideas out there, crooked ideas,
S1: ideas that aren't in alignment with the Word of God?
S1: I also think it's important to do this because it
S1: helps us when we evangelize. Please tell me you're evangelizing.
S1: Don't use a lifeline or call a friend. Just tell
S1: me that it's fire in your bones and you can't
S1: wait to share the good news with somebody else. And
S1: so if you understand where someone else is coming from,
S1: while their ideas might not come into alignment with Scripture,
S1: it helps you, I think, in a more winsome, grace
S1: filled narrative, to be able to talk to that person
S1: about Jesus Christ. Right? So that's what we're going to
S1: do this hour, and we're going to focus particularly in
S1: on Islam. And our friend Abdul Murray is in the house,
S1: just loves spending time with this man. Oh, he keeps
S1: me on my toes. He makes my synapses snap the
S1: entire hour. And I bet he does it for you too.
S1: He's the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. He offers
S1: the credibility of the gospel message as a speaker and
S1: a writer. He's authored multiple books, including Saving Truth, Grand
S1: Central question and his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion.
S1: And he was a practicing devout Muslim. Nine years. Would
S1: you have had the staying power to seek Jesus for
S1: nine years? Well, this man was deeply curious and had
S1: a hunger in his heart. So for nine years he
S1: turned over all kinds of stones historical ones, philosophical ones,
S1: theological ones, scientific ones, until he finally found himself at
S1: the foot of the cross, accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Boom!
S1: Old things pass away, all things become new. And now
S1: this lawyer by training is an advocate for the King,
S1: and he does a superb job just doing that. So
S1: vis a vis embraced the truth. He's got a fabulous podcast.
S1: And yeah, I'm you know, Paul says don't build on
S1: another man's work. I'm not going to. But I'll tell
S1: you what, I'll pick his brains, because what I listen
S1: to on his podcast, I think, is so good that
S1: if you're not following Embrace the Truth in their podcast,
S1: this is a catalyst for you to get even more
S1: interested and start listening to Abdul and his conversations on
S1: a more regular basis. So he recently was talking about
S1: Islam and what Muslims think about Jesus and Abdul. The
S1: warmest of welcomes. You made a statement that I thought
S1: was so interesting, and I bet it's going to challenge
S1: anybody who's listening with both ears on the side of
S1: their head right now. And you say that Muslims love Jesus. Now,
S1: I can't tell you. I know a whole lot of
S1: Christians that would say Christians love Mohammed. So I don't
S1: know that I can tip that back and forth and
S1: say it's equal in either camp. But to say that
S1: a muslim loves Jesus is stunning, because we think that Islam,
S1: a religion created hundreds of years after Christianity that there
S1: would be an affinity at all for Jesus. When Mohammed
S1: is the one true prophet to the followers of Islam.
S1: So talk to me about the fact that they love Jesus.
S1: I find that interesting and intriguing.
S6: Yeah. Thanks, Janet, and it's always such a pleasure to
S6: be with you. Um, yeah, this is an interesting, uh,
S6: thing that surprises a lot of people, especially a lot
S6: of Christians, because what they end up hearing is Islam
S6: is this sort of anti-Christian religion in some ways, and
S6: in some ways, that's actually true. There is this sense
S6: in which Islam is a religion that is a competitor
S6: to religions that are already established in the Middle East,
S6: like the paganism of the day. Judaism, which also was, was,
S6: was extant in the Arabian Peninsula, but also Christianity. Uh,
S6: in fact, that's why the phrase Allahu Akbar actually exists.
S6: It's a God is greater. In other words, God is
S6: greater than the things you guys say about him because
S6: you're wrong about him. Now, having said that, because it's
S6: a competitor to Christianity, it's also, however, um, a comrade
S6: of Christianity to a degree in some sense. And that
S6: sense is that it has an affinity for Jesus and
S6: a number of other people who are mentioned in the Bible. Uh, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah,
S6: all these folks. Um, now, when Muslims say they love Jesus,
S6: they love Jesus as a prophet of God. They love
S6: him as someone who was virgin born. Uh, the Quran
S6: has an entire chapter dedicated to Jesus's mother. It's called
S6: Surat Maryam. So Sura is a chapter of the Quran.
S6: Maryam is the Semitic way to say Mary. And so
S6: the chapter 19 of the Quran is all about Mary
S6: and all about the miraculous birth of Jesus as Mary,
S6: from Mary as a virgin. So Muslims Revere Jesus as
S6: a prophet of God who warned people to come back
S6: to true monotheism, which they believe is Islam. In fact,
S6: they believe that that Jesus was a muslim, that he
S6: actually preached Islam. Um, to return to the dietary and
S6: other legal restrictions that were implemented by God originally and
S6: to get away from any kind of paganism or other
S6: kind of, uh, sort of errant ways. The Jews had
S6: gone or other people had gone. Um, so they revered
S6: him as such. In fact, the Muslims understand that Jesus
S6: performed miracles. The Quran records many miracles, not the least
S6: of which is his virgin birth, but also that as
S6: a child, as an infant, he spoke from the cradle to, uh,
S6: sort of substantiate his prophetic office and to defend Mary's
S6: honor that he was, in fact a gift of God,
S6: not the result of some sort of tawdry thing she
S6: had done. Um, and he, uh, heals the sick. He
S6: even raises the dead, um, and does all these things.
S6: So they often Revere Jesus as this prophet. But one
S6: of the reasons they also Revere him is that he's
S6: a prophet who, according to Islam, prophesied the coming of
S6: Muhammad eventually that he would be the final prophet. So
S6: for all of those reasons, a muslim would say they
S6: love Jesus.
S1: Wow. Okay. So many things to ask in that. So
S1: you taught me something. They believe that Jesus performed miracles.
S1: Teach me. Does the Quran ever say that Muhammad performed miracles?
S6: So explicitly? No, there's there's nothing. There's a whole strand
S6: of Muslim theology where they say that the only miracle
S6: that actually vouchsafed or in some way confirmed Muhammad's prophetic
S6: office was the Quran itself. Muslims will claim that Muhammad
S6: was an illiterate man because of the Quran calls him
S6: the unlettered one. Um. And that he therefore was illiterate,
S6: and that this masterpiece of Arabic grammar and poetry and
S6: content could not have been fashioned by an illiterate man.
S6: It had to be a miraculous revelation to him. In fact,
S6: they don't even ascribe to Muhammad any authorship of the Quran.
S6: They'd say it's completely God that he was not inspired. Rather,
S6: he heard words and he simply said what he heard.
S6: So he is like this mouthpiece. But other than that,
S6: according to strict Islam, there are no miracles. Now, there
S6: are some folk areas of Islam where there are miracles,
S6: but strictly speaking, there are none attributed to Muhammad other
S6: than the Quran itself.
S1: Wow, I bet you just heard a boatload of things
S1: you never heard before. That's why I love spending time
S1: with Abdul. He's such a great teacher. We are going
S1: to continue to talk about what our Muslim friends think
S1: about Jesus. I think it's important for us to understand,
S1: and I think it also equips us when we're loving
S1: our Muslim neighbors. And we want to share the good
S1: news of the gospel of Jesus Christ with them. Again,
S1: I've got a link to embrace the truth so much.
S1: Excellent resource material there and a podcast dealing specifically with this.
S1: I've got a link in my info page as well.
S1: Much more with Abdu Murray right after this. Have you
S1: ever wondered why music moves us so deeply, or why
S1: beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool this month
S1: is a thought provoking book that explores those moments of
S1: wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have you ever wondered?
S1: Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary
S1: biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have you ever
S1: wondered when you give a gift of any amount in
S1: the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58
S1: or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Is
S1: with us for the entire hour. We always look forward
S1: to our regular conversations with him. He is president of
S1: Embrace the Truth Ministry. And among the panoply of things
S1: he does through his ministries. He's got a fabulous podcast.
S1: So he had an episode recently called Jesus in Islam, Prophet, Messiah,
S1: but not God. Question mark. And so we're doing a
S1: side by side comparison. I've already learned things in the
S1: first part of our conversation, and I bet you have
S1: as well. So let me pick up where we left off.
S1: So I find this interesting and and I wonder if
S1: in the Islamic world, if it's seen as a tension
S1: or it's just moving past it, because the singular role
S1: of Jesus is to point to Muhammad. So Jesus does
S1: miracles according to Quran, but Muhammad does not. But Muhammad
S1: has to be proclaimed by Jesus because Muhammad ends up
S1: being the last prophet. That's interesting because one would think,
S1: and I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective,
S1: I would think someone who could do miracles would already,
S1: in the hierarchy of all things supernatural would have my
S1: attention over someone who was not. Is that not a
S1: tension in the Islamic world?
S6: Well, it can be definitely. In fact, one of the
S6: reasons why miracles are outside of the Quran actually attributed
S6: to Muhammad is because of the tension you just mentioned. So,
S6: as I was saying before, the Quran doesn't actually specifically
S6: say Muhammad performed some miracles. In fact, there are several
S6: places where it says he didn't. Uh, example is um, uh,
S6: where there is a um, I'm looking it up real quick.
S6: There is a section, there's a couple of verses where
S6: the Quran says, for example, in, um, the 13th chapter,
S6: seventh verse, uh, the unbelievers were saying, if only some
S6: sign were sent down upon Muhammad from his Lord. Um,
S6: in other words, if only there was something that we
S6: could know was proven. But it says, no, he's only
S6: a Warner. He only warns people, um, like to come
S6: back to true monotheism. Um, and there are various commentators
S6: who made a point that there is no there is
S6: no miracle story in the Quran except for these vague references,
S6: for example, in the 17th chapter, uh, verse one, um,
S6: there is this reference to what's called a mirage, which
S6: is basically a night journey where, um, according to Muslim tradition, uh,
S6: Muhammad was taken from Mecca. The mosque in Mecca all
S6: the way to Jerusalem, where the dome of the Rock
S6: is at. Which is why it's a holy site for Muslims.
S6: And he was taken there in a single night by
S6: a winged horse named Buraq, which means blessing. And the
S6: only reference you find in the Quran is in chapter 17,
S6: where it says, uh, glory to God who took his
S6: servant doesn't even mention Muhammad by name, but his servant
S6: for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to
S6: the farthest mosque, whose precincts we blessed in order that
S6: we might show him some of our signs or some
S6: of our miracles. Well, there's no detail there, and there's
S6: no eyewitnesses to it. There's also a reference, uh, from
S6: chapter 54 of the Quran, where, uh, it is said
S6: that the moon was split, and Muslims will often say
S6: that there is a, a hadith or a tradition about
S6: Muhammad where someone said, show me a sign. And he looked,
S6: took his finger in the sky, and he traced out
S6: the moon and he split the moon with his finger. Now,
S6: that is not considered necessarily a strong claim or evidence,
S6: but because of the tension you just mentioned, a lot
S6: of these, um, a lot of these miracles have to
S6: be ascribed to Muhammad, because the most recent prophet before
S6: him was Jesus, and he did a bunch of miracles.
S6: He was born of a virgin, and in fact was
S6: an even greater tension is that the Quran refers to
S6: Jesus as sinless, but it doesn't refer to Muhammad that
S6: way or anybody else, frankly, as that way. In fact,
S6: Muhammad has to actually ask in a sort of implied way,
S6: for forgiveness at the end of his life.
S1: The tension just keeps growing. So and again, thank you
S1: for that superb explanation about that. Because if again hierarchical
S1: just I'm trying to use common sense here. Jesus does miracles,
S1: Muhammad does not. Muhammad never claims that he's sinless. Jesus is.
S1: And yet you decide, if I can put it this way,
S1: to go to a lesser God. I find that interesting
S1: to me. So what is the attractiveness if the things
S1: that Jesus can do, um, are not identified or affirmed
S1: in Qur'anic writing, why would one then subscribe to Muhammad
S1: as opposed to Jesus?
S6: Well, I think there's a couple of there's one is
S6: just a sort of a sociological reason. Yes. And one
S6: of those sociological reasons is, is that Muhammad had a
S6: tremendous amount of influence militarily and politically, and he was
S6: an incredibly charismatic figure in Arabia. So you have this
S6: growing movement of Muhammad amongst, uh, the pagan Arabs of
S6: the time who worshipped multiple gods. And Muhammad said, stop
S6: doing that. Um, he had a, a political affinity, uh,
S6: or even a theological affinity to a degree with Christians
S6: and Jews in the beginning of his prophetic career, as
S6: it were. Um, by saying, Christians and Jews, we all
S6: believe in the same God. And I affirm your prophets
S6: and all these things. And so some were converting to Islam, uh,
S6: by by choice, not necessarily by force. Uh, it was
S6: when they began to resist him, because he was claiming
S6: an office that was at least as good, if not
S6: higher than Jesus, that he, the Quran, starts to turn
S6: on them, and Muhammad starts to turn on them and
S6: say that Christians and Jews are amongst the worst of creatures.
S6: It's actually in the Bible. Sorry, in the Quran. So
S6: you have this political charismatic thing, but then later on,
S6: I think what happens is, is you have this sociological development,
S6: and I've thought about this a lot, and I don't
S6: have necessarily a historical according to Hoyle, this is how
S6: this happened kind of a thing. But I suspect it,
S6: based on my interactions and my history, is that Muhammad
S6: is for the Middle Easterners and for the Arabs especially,
S6: specifically the Arabs. He's theirs. He's their guy like he is.
S6: He legitimizes the the people of the Arabian people in
S6: light of the the Jews and the Romans of the
S6: time especially, they were, you know, had offices, they had
S6: prophetic offices, they had political offices. And along comes an
S6: Arabian who says, hey, I'm from the same line, the
S6: line of Ishmael, from Abraham, from an Abrahamic faith. And
S6: so this effort to legitimize Muhammad and to have this
S6: affinity for him, there has to be a loyalty and
S6: a fealty to him that is beyond actual rationality, because
S6: even Muslims will tell you. The Quran specifically says we
S6: make no distinction amongst the prophets. There is no distinction.
S6: They all have equal office. Muhammad happens to be the
S6: last one who delivered the perfect book. But he's not
S6: greater in the sense that he himself is ontologically greater.
S6: Yet Muslims will take great offense if someone makes fun
S6: of Muhammad but not Jesus, they're fine with Jesus being
S6: made fun of, but not Muhammad. And it's partly because
S6: there is this loyalty and fealty to Muhammad based on
S6: ethnicity and sociology.
S1: Boy, that's fascinating because Jesus is in the Quran, okay,
S1: this isn't a superimposition. He's in there already. And so
S1: there's a kind of, um, interesting, uh, waltz that has
S1: to be played around this when we come back. Abdul,
S1: I was just thinking when you were talking. I bet
S1: there are a whole lot of people who could say, well,
S1: I didn't even know if Muhammad was real. Tell me
S1: a little bit about his biography that he is a historical,
S1: historically substantiated person that was in history. Tell me something
S1: about his background. Abdul Murray is with us. The purpose
S1: of all of this is to get fire in your
S1: bones so you can share Jesus with your Muslim friends
S1: back after this. We're visiting with Abdul Murray, president of
S1: Embrace the Truth Ministry. Prolific author, by the way. Let
S1: me run some titles past you again. Saving truth, Grand
S1: central question, uh, apocalypse later, and his most recent book,
S1: More Than a White Man's Religion. And he's got a
S1: great podcast as well. All of that can be found
S1: at Embrace the Truth. And I've got a link to
S1: the ministry. Not hard to forget. Embrace the truth. I
S1: guess I meant not hard to remember. Embrace the truth.
S1: So we're doing a side by side comparison about exactly
S1: what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. And so I
S1: was thinking, I don't doubt for one second the historicity
S1: of Jesus Christ, the extra-biblical affirmation of his existence. And
S1: all of the times we've talked over the years, Abdu,
S1: about how he can be historically substantiated even outside the
S1: parameters of Scripture. Can the same thing be said of Mohammed?
S1: And if the answer is yes, what can you tell
S1: us about him?
S6: Well, um. Well, the surprisingly little actually, that specifically mentions
S6: Muhammad outside of Islam's own sources. So, for example, you'd
S6: expect to see a lot more from Romans and from Persians, uh,
S6: with whom he interacted, um, uh, and other other people's, um,
S6: various religious groups or, um, even political groups with whom
S6: he interacted. There's very little outside of the Islamic sources,
S6: not something I would think that's nothing like the the
S6: riches we find in terms of the not only Jesus himself,
S6: but the early Christian church. Well, you do have some
S6: you do have some references that are either, uh, indirectly
S6: related to, say, say, talk about Muhammad as a person
S6: like mentioned, his name. But there's a lot of reference to,
S6: you know, a leader of the Muslims and that kind
S6: of thing. So you do see some of that. Um,
S6: largely what we have in terms of the understanding of
S6: the history and the life of Muhammad comes from the
S6: hadith literature and what's called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is
S6: like the the biography of Muhammad, largely compiled from the hadith.
S6: Hadith comes from an Arabic word which means to discuss.
S6: It also means something that happens like a an event.
S6: And so the hadith are a collection, and there's like
S6: six authoritative collections, um, of various hadith, which are traditions
S6: about Muhammad. So what you'd get is a statement that is, um,
S6: brought about by a chain. So you'd have like thus
S6: in such a person heard thus in such a person
S6: say that one of Muhammad's closest friends said that Muhammad said,
S6: so you'd have that kind of that kind of a chain. Um,
S6: and some of them are direct, like, um, this guy said,
S6: I heard Muhammad say, um, and so you'd have a
S6: lot of the history of Muhammad from that collection, and
S6: there are various versions that are spurious. There are things
S6: that like likely didn't happen, uh, but they're still compiled.
S6: There's other things that likely did happen, but we have
S6: this from this oral tradition, and what we don't have
S6: is anything written down about Muhammad's life in any real
S6: sense from these hadith traditions until about 100 to 150
S6: years after Muhammad's death. Now, that doesn't mean that they
S6: didn't exist. It just meant they existed in an oral form,
S6: and they weren't written down in any authoritative way. And
S6: so there was compilations that had to be collected about
S6: Muhammad's life. Um, but traditionally, and I think we can,
S6: with some confidence, actually say Muhammad was a real person.
S6: He really did, in fact, exist. He was the he
S6: was the founder of Islam. And he, um, was a
S6: at least a political leader who had theological heft to
S6: the things he was saying that gave him a religious
S6: movement that became a political movement mixed with religion as well.
S6: So I think we can say that, um, so I
S6: think we can say that with with relative relative certainty.
S6: I don't think the same certainty exists with that claim
S6: as does with other historical figures, uh, including and especially
S6: Jesus and the early church, which is ironic because Muhammad
S6: was born in 570 A.D. so you talk about 500
S6: years after Jesus's life, and yet we have less evidence, um,
S6: outside of Islam, for Muhammad than we have for Jesus,
S6: who was 600 years before him, uh, or 500 years
S6: before him. So that's just interesting all by itself.
S1: So much again. And I bet everybody is just as
S1: being impacted as much as I am about information they
S1: really didn't know before. So raises a couple of questions.
S1: And I ask you this because this is not academic
S1: for you. You were on a nine year journey and
S1: there were things that you plowed through, including the historicity
S1: of the scriptures. So I loved what you said before,
S1: that he and I'm not being disrespectful, but he's kind
S1: of like, he's our guy, all right? He's ours. He
S1: gets passed down generationally, you know, our fathers before us, etc.,
S1: going back multiple generations. And so questions like the. Well,
S1: there's very little that substantiates his existence outside of. Within
S1: the parameters of our own writing. In other words, there
S1: is no Josephus who can identify a Mohammed. So I
S1: find that interesting. But then again, maybe not such a problem,
S1: because I'm not sure for the Muslim who wants to
S1: affirm what they already believe, if that becomes a stumbling
S1: block in their investigation. I may have said that cryptically,
S1: but does that make sense?
S6: No it does. It does make a lot of sense, actually.
S6: And I want to say that there are there are
S6: some there's not a Josephus style. There's not a Suetonius
S6: or a Tacitus, you know, kind of enemies of the,
S6: of the Christian faith who reference reference Jesus and the
S6: movement that he started. Um, but there are some references, uh,
S6: like the doctrine of Jacobi, uh, you know, six hundreds, uh,
S6: in the common era, there's a couple of, um, references
S6: to Islam and Muslims and Muhammad in sort of veiled ways,
S6: but they're not nearly as strong. It does create a tension, though,
S6: when you begin to look at this stuff. Um, you
S6: think to yourself, if he was this influential, especially politically, um,
S6: and especially militarily, you'd expect to see a lot more
S6: information with Jesus. It's interesting because people often make the
S6: same claim with Jesus. Oh, we should see if he's
S6: this influential. We should see tons of information about him
S6: from non-Christian sources. Well, the first thing is we do.
S6: We have exactly. We have plenty. But we wouldn't see
S6: the Romans outside of their historians writing documents about their
S6: conquests or their battles against Jesus because he had none.
S6: He didn't do it that way. But Muhammad did. You
S6: have battles and all these progressions, so you'd expect there
S6: to be at least something from his enemies that would
S6: either say we conquered him or he conquered us. And
S6: we have no, we have almost none of that.
S3: Wow.
S1: Absolutely fascinating. Okay, I still have a ton of questions.
S1: I'm hearing the music. So let me take a clean
S1: break here and we'll come back. Abdul Murray is with us.
S1: This is why we just love when he comes to visit.
S1: He really gets the pistons of our mind firing, doesn't he?
S1: And again, why are we doing this? It isn't just
S1: a matter of going yawn. It's comparative theology. No, it's
S1: much more than that. If you want to become all
S1: things to all people so that by all means, some
S1: might be saved, I want to know because when I'm
S1: sharing Jesus with someone that's a neighbor or a friend
S1: or a coworker who happens to be a subscriber to Islam,
S1: I want to know where they're coming from. Paul did
S1: when he was in Athens. Acts 17. So I want
S1: to know, and I'm learning a ton of stuff. I
S1: hope you are too back after this. What's the goal
S1: of in the market? I'll tell you in the market
S1: equips men and women to think critically and act biblically.
S1: Why do we do this? So that we can be
S1: confident when speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are
S1: you willing to stand with me? Become a partial partner today,
S1: and enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while making
S1: an impact for the Kingdom. Call 877 Janet 58 or
S1: go online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot.
S1: Abdul Murray is the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry.
S1: He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a
S1: speaker and a writer through his ministry, does a fabulous job.
S1: He's authored several books, excuse me, including Saving Truth, Grand
S1: Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and his latest, More Than a
S1: White Man's Religion. He speaks all over the world. He
S1: contends for the faith. He does so beautifully and and
S1: embrace the truth. He also has a podcast, which he
S1: did recently on Jesus in Islam. Had to get that
S1: off air. And now we go back to what he
S1: was saying before. So I'm doing I found it interesting
S1: you said that Muhammad is deemed to be the founder
S1: of Islam, and yet there are all these prophets that
S1: precede him. Why is he deemed to be the founder then?
S6: Well, that's actually a great question, because oftentimes, and I
S6: want to make sure I qualify that statement. Um, is
S6: Muhammad is deemed, you know, historically speaking, and even theologically
S6: to some degree to be the founder of Islam. Although
S6: Muslims would say that Islam actually began with Adam, that
S6: Adam and Eve were actually Muslims, in fact, the Quran
S6: actually describes them as that way is that when they
S6: eat of the fruit that they should not be eating,
S6: they are cast down from the garden and, uh, God's
S6: reward to them, not for their sin, but because they're
S6: human beings and his his not reward, but his gift
S6: to them. Uh, instead of just casting them out of
S6: the garden, was to give them a way back, to
S6: come back into God's good graces, which was what's called
S6: the huda or the the guidance or the wisdom, um,
S6: which is taken to be the law or, uh, the, uh,
S6: sort of doctrinal statements and law that they're supposed to
S6: not only believe but also follow and that that is
S6: consistent throughout all of the prophets, from Adam to Noah
S6: to Abraham to Moses, um, down through David, John the Baptist, uh,
S6: Jesus himself and eventually Muhammad. So, technically speaking, a muslim
S6: would say Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. God
S6: is the founder of Islam through the very first prophet, Adam. Now,
S6: having said that, um, what Muslims also believe is that
S6: the Quran is the divine revelation which eternally existed, but
S6: came as the last revelation to fix all the corruption
S6: that had happened in the previous scriptures. And so Muhammad
S6: is the founder of Islam in the sense that he
S6: established a religion and was the most successful of the
S6: prophets because his, his, his revelation was never changed. Um,
S6: the Quran according to Muslims has never been changed and
S6: the message has stayed the same. And he brought us
S6: back to the true and authentic monotheism of Adam all
S6: the way through to Jesus. Whereas Jesus and Noah and
S6: and Abraham and David, all of their revelations were eventually
S6: corrupted in some way. Uh, but Muhammad was not. And
S6: so that's sort of again, answers the first question, which
S6: is why Muhammad and, you know, why is he so special? Well,
S6: that's one reason. And two, is he the founder? Yes,
S6: of the stable religion. But Adam technically is the very
S6: first believer in Islam.
S1: Wow. Absolutely fascinating. I meant to ask you this. When
S1: we came back after the break. And let me ask
S1: it now. Your knowledge just flows out of you on this. Abdul,
S1: you can quote the hadith and you talk about the Quran.
S1: Is this because you studied this from a child growing up,
S1: or did you study this, uh, to go deep into
S1: it as you were on your nine year exploration that
S1: took you to the cross?
S6: Well, it's both. And then one more. Um, it's both because, um,
S6: I had been taught a lot of stuff as a kid, um,
S6: about Islam, and I actually took a lot of that
S6: stuff and went further with it because I had sort
S6: of a sense of religious devotion, uh, even as a
S6: child and well into teen years and that kind of stuff.
S6: It was when I was in college when I really
S6: began to, like, think, okay, do I believe this because
S6: it's true, or do I believe it because it's tradition
S6: and there's a whole story behind that. But then I
S6: began to look even more into it and alongside Christianity
S6: and other, you know, uh, worldviews and systems just to
S6: get a firmer grasp of what this really teaches. Um,
S6: and so during that journey, I began to take this
S6: deeper dive, deeper look into the foundations of the thing
S6: that I had believed my whole life. I had a
S6: foundation already set, but a lot of this stuff was
S6: developed during that nine year journey. And then the. And
S6: is that after that nine year journey was complete and
S6: I gave my life to Christ. Um, I began to
S6: look even further because what I wanted to do was
S6: to make sure that one I had made the right decision.
S6: And two, I wanted to make sure that if I,
S6: if I if I extol this virtue of of Christianity,
S6: this credibility of Christianity, I believe you have to do
S6: it in comparison. Oftentimes, you know, as Guinness, the great
S6: Guinness said, comparison is the mother of clarity. And when
S6: you understand this stuff and you really dive into it,
S6: you begin to be able to give a better clarity
S6: because you're able to compare a different worldview. And I
S6: have a strong heart for Muslims. Given my background. I
S6: preach to everybody, but Muslims hold a special place in
S6: my heart because of my own background. So I wanted
S6: to learn more about them, and I think that's the
S6: most important, critical thing is, before you cast aspersions at
S6: someone else's worldview, make sure you know it. Now, do
S6: you have to know every single thing about it? Absolutely not.
S6: You don't. But I'm sort of one of those guys
S6: who I like the detail and I like to do this.
S6: And then the fourth thing I'll add on the journey
S6: is when you get involved in debates and dialogues on
S6: this stuff, in formalized debates and these kind of conversations,
S6: people bring up things you didn't necessarily know, and you
S6: have to go and dive into it ahead of time
S6: or in reaction to it. And so a lot of
S6: what I know is because of that as well.
S1: Wow. So there's my observation. I could be dead wrong,
S1: but my subjective observation on this is that there is,
S1: within the parameters of Islam, a family element that I
S1: don't see fully replicated in Christianity. Maybe it's because in
S1: my travels to the Middle East, one of you talk
S1: about being dumb. That's why Mark Twain said, you know,
S1: travel is the best classroom. I did not realize that
S1: when you traveled in the Middle East, you have an
S1: ID card and there's an M after your name for Muslim,
S1: and it has to be changed if you become a Christian,
S1: and then that changes to a C and that doesn't
S1: come without consequences. And so it is more than just
S1: making a proclamation of faith and understanding that you're going
S1: to follow Jesus. You've now made a public declaration through
S1: your official identification whose you are. But for Muslims, what
S1: I learned very quickly is it isn't about evangelizing. I'm
S1: going to use all of my Christianized term and superimpose
S1: it on Islam, but I think my friends will understand
S1: it if I use those terms. So there's no evangelizing,
S1: and very often what I see was or what I
S1: saw was it's generational impact. My great grandfather, my grandfather,
S1: and it just went down and there was no aha
S1: moment of conversion. I got saved when I was seven.
S1: It was I was immersed totally in an Islamic household.
S1: That's all we've ever known. That's all we'll ever be.
S1: That's who we are as a people, as a family. Now,
S1: is that an is that an obtuse observation, or is
S1: there some truth in that?
S6: No, there's a lot of truth in it, actually. Um,
S6: there is, uh, a real sense in which, uh, you are, um,
S6: a born a muslim. Muslims believe you are born a muslim,
S6: and it is the world that changes you into a
S6: Christian or a Jew or whatever it might be, or
S6: a Hindu or a Buddhist. You're born with an innate
S6: sense of monotheism and monotheism that is very Islamic. Unitarian monotheism. Um,
S6: and then that tradition is fostered because the East and
S6: the Middle East is categorized by an honor and shame culture,
S6: which has its benefits. You know, it's it's got it's
S6: tremendous benefits. It's tremendous benefit is that you do that
S6: which brings honor and you avoid that which brings shame, uh,
S6: to your community and to your family and to the
S6: country and then to the religion itself. Now, that's good
S6: in one sense, because what you do is you think
S6: of others before you think of yourself. It's not so
S6: individualistic that you don't think of the ramifications of your beliefs,
S6: your actions and these kind of things on others. The
S6: shadow side. And everything's got a shadow side this side
S6: of heaven, the shadow side is that you're willing to
S6: believe false things, even things that you might know are false,
S6: because believing otherwise would bring shame to your family. Yes.
S6: And so, yes, that is exactly. You're hitting the nail
S6: right on the head. One of the reasons why it's
S6: so difficult to break in to the Muslim heart and
S6: the Muslim mind with the good news, and it is
S6: great news, is that they see the bad news. And
S6: the bad news is, if I accept this, I could
S6: lose everything. I could lose my sense of community, my
S6: sense of identity. I could lose family. I could even
S6: possibly lose my life. And so oftentimes we say John
S6: 316 and it sounds so fantastic, but they're thinking all
S6: the negative consequences. So yeah, that's you've hit it, you've
S6: nailed it. And that's exactly what happens. It's not obtuse.
S6: It's actually concrete. And by the way, that's not just
S6: a middle eastern regional thing for all the Muslims that
S6: are here in the United States and across the world,
S6: whether it's in the Western world or in the Muslim world. Um,
S6: that's a that's a truism. That's a true thing for everybody. Um, yeah.
S6: I'll tell you a quick story, very short. I was
S6: witnessing to a muslim guy, and he was acknowledging every
S6: single thing I was saying is true in his own journey.
S6: And tears were flowing from his eyes, and he looked
S6: down at his shoes as if the answers to all
S6: the world's questions, wherever was written on his shoes, he
S6: would not look up. And he said under his breath,
S6: my father has never told me he's proud of me,
S6: and that he loves me. And if I become a
S6: if I become a Christian, he never will. And that
S6: was his chief barrier. So yes, it's a huge part.
S1: Wow. That breaks my heart. I get tears in my
S1: eyes when I think about that. I'm thinking also, if
S1: anybody is as old as I am, let me give
S1: you a cultural reference that really underscores what Abdul was saying.
S1: So I remember George W Bush giving a press conference,
S1: and it was the middle of the conflict of the
S1: Middle East, and the reporter took his shoe and threw
S1: it at President Bush. And most people in America wouldn't
S1: have understood that. That goes exactly to what Abdul was
S1: talking about. The throwing the shoe is very often that
S1: symbol of shame being transmitted to another person. And I
S1: don't think in the Western mind we understood the significance
S1: of that. I remember the president kind of made some
S1: offhand comment like, you miss me or something like that
S1: after it happened, but it was really he was angry
S1: at what was happening in that part of the world,
S1: and he was shaming the president by throwing his shoe
S1: at him. Um, so I want to underscore that the
S1: other thing, too, and it takes me back to you personally, Abdul.
S1: And I bet my music's going to play. But let
S1: me start the question anyway. So you do this wonderful
S1: deep dive for nine years, all the stones that you
S1: overturned that I talked about earlier, but the one stone
S1: that had to be the heaviest of all is who
S1: am I going to be in this family if I
S1: accept Jesus as my Savior? I'm one of them, but
S1: I won't be one of them. I, as a son,
S1: do not ever want to bring shame and dishonor to
S1: my family. Why am I having to make this Hobson's
S1: choice between following Jesus and remaining a beloved son in
S1: my own family? Now the music's music is playing. So
S1: let me get your reaction to that. And maybe this
S1: is a blessing. Think about that. Because how often in
S1: the United States when you decide to say yes, he's Lord,
S1: I want him as Savior in my life? How often
S1: do we think and it will happen? In some cases,
S1: I grant you. But does it happen to the same
S1: extent as it does, for example, in the Islamic and
S1: quite honestly, in the Jewish world as well? They'll hold
S1: funerals for Jews who come to faith in Jesus Christ
S1: sometime because you're dead to me, because you came to Christ.
S1: So this is something to think about when you're sharing
S1: that good news that there's a price to be paid sometimes,
S1: and we should always remember that back after this. Embrace
S1: the truth. That's the website for Abdul Murray's ministry. Embrace
S1: the truth. Embrace the truth. And it's one of those
S1: deliciously rich sites with tons of information, links to books
S1: and articles that I've written and podcasts that he does.
S1: So check it out, please. I want you to know
S1: and love this ministry. And germane to our conversation this
S1: hour is I've got a direct link to a recent
S1: podcast he did called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah Dot
S1: dot dot, but not God. Question mark. And there's so
S1: much more. By the way, it's actually a two part.
S1: But I want you to start this, and then you're
S1: going to be hungry enough to want to get the
S1: second part. But I wanted to go on a very
S1: personal level about the idea, and I thank you for
S1: explaining this idea that there is this generational impact, this
S1: deep bonds of familial connection, that you're born a muslim.
S1: And so you, Abdou, this beautifully eloquent man for the
S1: gospel and yet passionate about your family and a very
S1: observant Muslim that concluded after about one minute, but nine
S1: years of investigation and part of those deep night of
S1: the soul moments had to be, God, what are you
S1: going to do with me and my family? How did
S1: you resolve that?
S6: Well, that's why it took nine years. I've often put
S6: it this way, and I think this is this encapsulates it.
S6: And I want to sort of start the response by
S6: this is that it took me nine years to, to
S6: to come to faith in Christ, not because the evidence
S6: was hard to find. I found all the evidence I
S6: needed sufficient to make a commitment to Christ. I didn't
S6: find all the answers. I still don't have all the answers. Um,
S6: but I found but I sufficiently found, I found sufficient
S6: answers to give my life to Jesus within about two
S6: years of that search. Um, but it took seven more
S6: years to wrestle with that evidence and reshape it and
S6: rethink it and mull it over a little bit more
S6: to shine it, to buff it, to scratch it sometimes
S6: all that stuff, because it didn't take me. It was
S6: it wasn't an easy and easy decision because there was
S6: an identity issue. Who was I? Who was I going
S6: to be within myself? I liked being a muslim. Um,
S6: who was I going to be to my family and
S6: my community? Who was I going to be? And so
S6: how I put it is this. The answers were not
S6: hard to find, but they were hard to embrace. Um,
S6: and that's why the ministry's called that, by the way.
S6: That's why we're called Embrace the Truth. Because the answer
S6: was hard to. The answers were not hard to find,
S6: but they are hard to embrace. And so part of
S6: our approach is to do what Blaise Pascal said is
S6: to make good people wish it were true, and then
S6: show them that it is. You show them the beauty
S6: of it. And so it took me this long, because
S6: I had to be so compelled that I was willing
S6: to risk so much. For me, it just this has
S6: to be true. If this is even remotely close to,
S6: to to a reasonable doubt about its truth, then I
S6: need to not do this. Because for me, the earthly
S6: and the sort of, uh, corporeal consequences were too great. Um,
S6: that doesn't mean that they really are. It just meant
S6: that in my mind, they were. So that's why it
S6: took me that long. But I began to wrestle with something.
S6: And C.S. Lewis, I'll bookend it with this. C.S. Lewis, um,
S6: says two statements that I think are brilliant. Um, himself. What?
S6: He calls himself the most reluctant convert.
S1: Yes.
S6: He says. He said. He said if you look for truth,
S6: you'll find comfort. And then he says, but if you
S6: look for comfort, you will find only soft soap to
S6: begin with. But in the end, despair. Um. And I
S6: realized if I see comfort, I'll be okay for a while.
S6: But ultimately, I'll be in this despair because my intellectual integrity,
S6: I think the spiritual tug will, uh, as well, will
S6: ultimately be at odds with, uh, dare I say, my
S6: own cowardice over the consequences of what would happen to me.
S6: And I knew that would be a despair. And when
S6: I finally gave my life to Christ, after seeing that
S6: all the things I was hoping was true in my
S6: former worldview were actually true in the gospel message, um,
S6: I realized something else, C.S. Lewis said. And it was
S6: to me, it was just such a a beautiful thing
S6: for him to say is, he said that the great
S6: thing to remember is that though our feelings come and go.
S6: His love for us does not. It is not wearied
S6: by our sins or our indifference, and therefore it is
S6: quite relentless in its pursuit that its sorry, its determination
S6: that we shall be cured of those sins at whatever
S6: cost to us, at whatever cost to him. So I
S6: realized something that other worldviews, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know,
S6: any other ism and schism you can think of, they
S6: ask you to make a change, but at your expense
S6: and your expense alone. The Christian message is that God
S6: causes the change at his expense, and therefore, what cost
S6: could I possibly pay that would that would, that would
S6: even compare to the cost he paid for me? How
S6: could I possibly say no to him? How could I
S6: possibly look at that cross and say, not good enough?
S6: I might get yelled at. I mean, how could I
S6: possibly do that? And so that's that's a big part
S6: of it, is that at some point I had to
S6: be willing to give that up. And that's why Jesus
S6: says so beautifully in several places and in various ways,
S6: that you have to die to yourself. He who loses
S6: his life for my sake will find it. Um, I
S6: can tell you it's been 25 years, uh, since I
S6: became a believer. In fact, in June, 25 years since
S6: I became a believer. And in that quarter century when
S6: it's been the hardest to follow him, it's been the
S6: most worth it.
S1: Have you ever. And it's so contradictory to the statement
S1: that you just made because there is this tension, because
S1: not just your nuclear but your extended family as well.
S1: Did you ever think, oh, if only I hadn't, or
S1: for the eloquent reasons that you just articulated, how can
S1: you not supersedes the temporal?
S6: You know, I would be lying if I didn't say
S6: that there was some fleshly thing, or maybe even Satan
S6: saying something in my ear that says, just say this
S6: and it'll be fine. You know, it'll go easy for you. Um,
S6: I remember distinctly in the middle of the throes of
S6: some pretty intense emotional upheaval and relational upheaval, which, by
S6: the way, has all been resolved. I mean, we're great now. Um, but, uh,
S6: in the beginning, I remember thinking the word Muslim means
S6: one who submits to God to his will. Couldn't you
S6: just say you are? And what you really mean is
S6: you submit to God's will in Christ and just leave
S6: it at that. And the answer was an emphatic no,
S6: because that would be lying. And how could I forsake
S6: truth when the truth forsook everything for me and I
S6: couldn't do it?
S3: Wow. Wow.
S1: And there's so much more in this podcast, Abdul. I
S1: feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. This is
S1: why I love our conversations that you can address the
S1: the mind issues, but it's the heart issues ultimately that
S1: take over and I hope what it's created. Number one
S1: actually a couple of things. Number one, I hope it
S1: puts I've used the phrase before. Let me harken back
S1: to Jeremiah again. I hope these conversations put fire in
S1: your bones. Are you willfully Volitionally asking the Lord for
S1: opportunities to share the good news. And if not, why not?
S1: How can you keep this good news to yourself? How
S1: could you not? How can they know unless somebody tells them?
S1: X right. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. So I'm hoping
S1: that there's now more fire in your bones to go
S1: out and tell that you won't be reticent or embarrassed,
S1: but that you'll roll up your sleeves. You'll be prepared.
S1: You'll ask for a real anointing from the Holy Spirit
S1: before you talk to people. But then also, I hope
S1: this conversation broke your heart a little bit. He's not
S1: willing that any should perish, and our saying yes might
S1: not be the sort of angst another person has to
S1: go through before they say yes. For things like the
S1: generational connectedness, the definition of who you are within your family.
S1: There's a kind of Holy Spirit sensitivity that that requires.
S1: And one of the outcomes of these kinds of conversations,
S1: I hope, instills just that. Gosh, what a joy to
S1: call you my friend Abdul. What a great hour. Thank
S1: you friends. We'll see you next time on In the
S1: market with Janet Parshall.
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