WEBVTT - Best of In The Market with Janet Parshall:What Do Muslims Think About Jesus? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.759 Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.920 and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.520 and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:11.440 But before you go, I want to tell you about 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.720 And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.600 going out into the night sky and looking up and 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.439 seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.560 about God? And are you not in a moment of 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.960 awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.600 of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.800 that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.240 wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.480 of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.879 from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.160 a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.599 this sense of awe through the work that they do. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.120 In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.440 it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.150 because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you 0:01:00.150 --> 0:01:03.510 to walk through the chapters written by people who all 0:01:03.510 --> 0:01:06.310 have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes 0:01:06.310 --> 0:01:09.110 to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an 0:01:09.110 --> 0:01:11.429 amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, 0:01:11.430 --> 0:01:16.230 just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask 0:01:16.230 --> 0:01:19.110 for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll 0:01:19.110 --> 0:01:20.390 send it right off to you as my way of 0:01:20.390 --> 0:01:22.910 saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or 0:01:22.910 --> 0:01:25.350 you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. 0:01:26.550 --> 0:01:29.389 When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. 0:01:29.390 --> 0:01:31.630 Those are people who give every single month at a 0:01:31.630 --> 0:01:34.110 level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, 0:01:34.150 --> 0:01:36.270 but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter 0:01:36.270 --> 0:01:39.069 that includes my writing and an audio piece just for 0:01:39.069 --> 0:01:43.230 my partial partner. So 877 Janet 58 or the website 0:01:43.230 --> 0:01:46.830 in the market with Janet parshall.org consider becoming a partial 0:01:46.830 --> 0:01:49.750 partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you 0:01:49.750 --> 0:01:59.180 ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends. 0:01:59.180 --> 0:02:01.220 This is Janet Parshall, and I want to welcome you 0:02:01.220 --> 0:02:03.820 to the best of. In the market, today's program is 0:02:03.820 --> 0:02:06.180 prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But I 0:02:06.180 --> 0:02:08.540 do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of The Best of 0:02:08.580 --> 0:02:10.340 In the Market with Janet Parshall. 0:02:10.740 --> 0:02:12.260 Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 0:02:12.540 --> 0:02:14.900 The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 0:02:14.940 --> 0:02:17.020 Americans worshiping government over God. 0:02:17.300 --> 0:02:20.660 Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 0:02:20.660 --> 0:02:22.740 The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 0:02:38.100 --> 0:02:40.739 Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. 0:02:40.740 --> 0:02:42.900 Thank you for spending the hour with us. Okay. We're 0:02:42.900 --> 0:02:46.180 going to do some comparative theology. Wait. Come back. Don't 0:02:46.180 --> 0:02:48.900 run screaming from the room. In other words, you often 0:02:48.900 --> 0:02:51.700 hear me quote Dwight L Moody. Brilliant idea. It's such 0:02:51.740 --> 0:02:54.139 a great word picture. He refers to the Bible as 0:02:54.139 --> 0:02:57.330 the straight stick of truth. And when you think about it, 0:02:57.370 --> 0:02:59.090 it's brilliant, is it not because you use it as 0:02:59.090 --> 0:03:02.250 a plumb line to measure all ideas out there, crooked ideas, 0:03:02.250 --> 0:03:05.130 ideas that aren't in alignment with the Word of God? 0:03:05.530 --> 0:03:07.730 I also think it's important to do this because it 0:03:07.730 --> 0:03:11.889 helps us when we evangelize. Please tell me you're evangelizing. 0:03:11.930 --> 0:03:14.169 Don't use a lifeline or call a friend. Just tell 0:03:14.169 --> 0:03:16.530 me that it's fire in your bones and you can't 0:03:16.530 --> 0:03:19.210 wait to share the good news with somebody else. And 0:03:19.210 --> 0:03:21.970 so if you understand where someone else is coming from, 0:03:21.970 --> 0:03:24.410 while their ideas might not come into alignment with Scripture, 0:03:24.410 --> 0:03:26.530 it helps you, I think, in a more winsome, grace 0:03:26.530 --> 0:03:28.410 filled narrative, to be able to talk to that person 0:03:28.410 --> 0:03:30.810 about Jesus Christ. Right? So that's what we're going to 0:03:30.810 --> 0:03:33.050 do this hour, and we're going to focus particularly in 0:03:33.050 --> 0:03:36.730 on Islam. And our friend Abdul Murray is in the house, 0:03:36.730 --> 0:03:39.490 just loves spending time with this man. Oh, he keeps 0:03:39.490 --> 0:03:41.850 me on my toes. He makes my synapses snap the 0:03:41.850 --> 0:03:43.970 entire hour. And I bet he does it for you too. 0:03:44.130 --> 0:03:47.210 He's the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. He offers 0:03:47.210 --> 0:03:49.810 the credibility of the gospel message as a speaker and 0:03:49.810 --> 0:03:54.370 a writer. He's authored multiple books, including Saving Truth, Grand 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.320 Central question and his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion. 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:03.200 And he was a practicing devout Muslim. Nine years. Would 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.119 you have had the staying power to seek Jesus for 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.120 nine years? Well, this man was deeply curious and had 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.240 a hunger in his heart. So for nine years he 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.280 turned over all kinds of stones historical ones, philosophical ones, 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:17.000 theological ones, scientific ones, until he finally found himself at 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.960 the foot of the cross, accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Boom! 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.960 Old things pass away, all things become new. And now 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.600 this lawyer by training is an advocate for the King, 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.720 and he does a superb job just doing that. So 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.560 vis a vis embraced the truth. He's got a fabulous podcast. 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.680 And yeah, I'm you know, Paul says don't build on 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.440 another man's work. I'm not going to. But I'll tell 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.200 you what, I'll pick his brains, because what I listen 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.200 to on his podcast, I think, is so good that 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.160 if you're not following Embrace the Truth in their podcast, 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:45.839 this is a catalyst for you to get even more 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.960 interested and start listening to Abdul and his conversations on 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.320 a more regular basis. So he recently was talking about 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.390 Islam and what Muslims think about Jesus and Abdul. The 0:04:56.390 --> 0:04:58.470 warmest of welcomes. You made a statement that I thought 0:04:58.470 --> 0:05:00.510 was so interesting, and I bet it's going to challenge 0:05:00.510 --> 0:05:02.990 anybody who's listening with both ears on the side of 0:05:03.029 --> 0:05:06.830 their head right now. And you say that Muslims love Jesus. Now, 0:05:06.830 --> 0:05:08.150 I can't tell you. I know a whole lot of 0:05:08.150 --> 0:05:11.590 Christians that would say Christians love Mohammed. So I don't 0:05:11.589 --> 0:05:13.430 know that I can tip that back and forth and 0:05:13.430 --> 0:05:16.070 say it's equal in either camp. But to say that 0:05:16.070 --> 0:05:20.550 a muslim loves Jesus is stunning, because we think that Islam, 0:05:20.589 --> 0:05:24.469 a religion created hundreds of years after Christianity that there 0:05:24.470 --> 0:05:27.710 would be an affinity at all for Jesus. When Mohammed 0:05:27.750 --> 0:05:30.750 is the one true prophet to the followers of Islam. 0:05:30.750 --> 0:05:33.110 So talk to me about the fact that they love Jesus. 0:05:33.110 --> 0:05:34.990 I find that interesting and intriguing. 0:05:35.230 --> 0:05:37.470 Yeah. Thanks, Janet, and it's always such a pleasure to 0:05:37.470 --> 0:05:40.589 be with you. Um, yeah, this is an interesting, uh, 0:05:40.630 --> 0:05:42.710 thing that surprises a lot of people, especially a lot 0:05:42.750 --> 0:05:46.630 of Christians, because what they end up hearing is Islam 0:05:46.630 --> 0:05:49.550 is this sort of anti-Christian religion in some ways, and 0:05:49.550 --> 0:05:52.350 in some ways, that's actually true. There is this sense 0:05:52.350 --> 0:05:56.150 in which Islam is a religion that is a competitor 0:05:56.150 --> 0:05:59.710 to religions that are already established in the Middle East, 0:05:59.750 --> 0:06:03.469 like the paganism of the day. Judaism, which also was, was, 0:06:03.510 --> 0:06:08.029 was extant in the Arabian Peninsula, but also Christianity. Uh, 0:06:08.070 --> 0:06:11.230 in fact, that's why the phrase Allahu Akbar actually exists. 0:06:11.230 --> 0:06:13.630 It's a God is greater. In other words, God is 0:06:13.630 --> 0:06:16.030 greater than the things you guys say about him because 0:06:16.029 --> 0:06:19.230 you're wrong about him. Now, having said that, because it's 0:06:19.230 --> 0:06:24.870 a competitor to Christianity, it's also, however, um, a comrade 0:06:24.870 --> 0:06:27.830 of Christianity to a degree in some sense. And that 0:06:27.830 --> 0:06:30.229 sense is that it has an affinity for Jesus and 0:06:30.230 --> 0:06:35.550 a number of other people who are mentioned in the Bible. Uh, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah, 0:06:35.589 --> 0:06:38.990 all these folks. Um, now, when Muslims say they love Jesus, 0:06:38.990 --> 0:06:42.109 they love Jesus as a prophet of God. They love 0:06:42.110 --> 0:06:45.589 him as someone who was virgin born. Uh, the Quran 0:06:45.589 --> 0:06:50.700 has an entire chapter dedicated to Jesus's mother. It's called 0:06:50.740 --> 0:06:53.460 Surat Maryam. So Sura is a chapter of the Quran. 0:06:53.460 --> 0:06:57.220 Maryam is the Semitic way to say Mary. And so 0:06:57.260 --> 0:07:00.539 the chapter 19 of the Quran is all about Mary 0:07:00.540 --> 0:07:03.940 and all about the miraculous birth of Jesus as Mary, 0:07:03.980 --> 0:07:07.859 from Mary as a virgin. So Muslims Revere Jesus as 0:07:07.860 --> 0:07:10.500 a prophet of God who warned people to come back 0:07:10.500 --> 0:07:13.460 to true monotheism, which they believe is Islam. In fact, 0:07:13.460 --> 0:07:16.060 they believe that that Jesus was a muslim, that he 0:07:16.060 --> 0:07:20.540 actually preached Islam. Um, to return to the dietary and 0:07:20.540 --> 0:07:24.300 other legal restrictions that were implemented by God originally and 0:07:24.300 --> 0:07:26.980 to get away from any kind of paganism or other 0:07:27.020 --> 0:07:30.300 kind of, uh, sort of errant ways. The Jews had 0:07:30.300 --> 0:07:33.380 gone or other people had gone. Um, so they revered 0:07:33.380 --> 0:07:36.500 him as such. In fact, the Muslims understand that Jesus 0:07:36.500 --> 0:07:39.940 performed miracles. The Quran records many miracles, not the least 0:07:39.940 --> 0:07:42.580 of which is his virgin birth, but also that as 0:07:42.580 --> 0:07:46.020 a child, as an infant, he spoke from the cradle to, uh, 0:07:46.060 --> 0:07:49.370 sort of substantiate his prophetic office and to defend Mary's 0:07:49.410 --> 0:07:52.210 honor that he was, in fact a gift of God, 0:07:52.210 --> 0:07:55.570 not the result of some sort of tawdry thing she 0:07:55.570 --> 0:07:58.810 had done. Um, and he, uh, heals the sick. He 0:07:58.810 --> 0:08:01.650 even raises the dead, um, and does all these things. 0:08:01.650 --> 0:08:05.450 So they often Revere Jesus as this prophet. But one 0:08:05.450 --> 0:08:07.570 of the reasons they also Revere him is that he's 0:08:07.570 --> 0:08:11.090 a prophet who, according to Islam, prophesied the coming of 0:08:11.090 --> 0:08:14.170 Muhammad eventually that he would be the final prophet. So 0:08:14.170 --> 0:08:16.490 for all of those reasons, a muslim would say they 0:08:16.490 --> 0:08:17.370 love Jesus. 0:08:17.890 --> 0:08:20.690 Wow. Okay. So many things to ask in that. So 0:08:21.050 --> 0:08:24.130 you taught me something. They believe that Jesus performed miracles. 0:08:24.130 --> 0:08:27.490 Teach me. Does the Quran ever say that Muhammad performed miracles? 0:08:27.690 --> 0:08:31.970 So explicitly? No, there's there's nothing. There's a whole strand 0:08:31.970 --> 0:08:34.849 of Muslim theology where they say that the only miracle 0:08:35.090 --> 0:08:39.210 that actually vouchsafed or in some way confirmed Muhammad's prophetic 0:08:39.210 --> 0:08:42.850 office was the Quran itself. Muslims will claim that Muhammad 0:08:42.850 --> 0:08:45.250 was an illiterate man because of the Quran calls him 0:08:45.250 --> 0:08:48.800 the unlettered one. Um. And that he therefore was illiterate, 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:54.360 and that this masterpiece of Arabic grammar and poetry and 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.800 content could not have been fashioned by an illiterate man. 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.720 It had to be a miraculous revelation to him. In fact, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.880 they don't even ascribe to Muhammad any authorship of the Quran. 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:09.000 They'd say it's completely God that he was not inspired. Rather, 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.000 he heard words and he simply said what he heard. 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.040 So he is like this mouthpiece. But other than that, 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.640 according to strict Islam, there are no miracles. Now, there 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.240 are some folk areas of Islam where there are miracles, 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.120 but strictly speaking, there are none attributed to Muhammad other 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:24.160 than the Quran itself. 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:26.480 Wow, I bet you just heard a boatload of things 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.400 you never heard before. That's why I love spending time 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.640 with Abdul. He's such a great teacher. We are going 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.520 to continue to talk about what our Muslim friends think 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.520 about Jesus. I think it's important for us to understand, 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.560 and I think it also equips us when we're loving 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.800 our Muslim neighbors. And we want to share the good 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.920 news of the gospel of Jesus Christ with them. Again, 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.189 I've got a link to embrace the truth so much. 0:09:47.230 --> 0:09:51.070 Excellent resource material there and a podcast dealing specifically with this. 0:09:51.070 --> 0:09:52.910 I've got a link in my info page as well. 0:09:52.950 --> 0:10:08.110 Much more with Abdu Murray right after this. Have you 0:10:08.110 --> 0:10:10.390 ever wondered why music moves us so deeply, or why 0:10:10.429 --> 0:10:13.070 beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool this month 0:10:13.070 --> 0:10:15.510 is a thought provoking book that explores those moments of 0:10:15.510 --> 0:10:18.350 wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have you ever wondered? 0:10:18.350 --> 0:10:21.510 Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary 0:10:21.510 --> 0:10:24.190 biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have you ever 0:10:24.190 --> 0:10:26.069 wondered when you give a gift of any amount in 0:10:26.070 --> 0:10:30.750 the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 0:10:30.750 --> 0:10:36.510 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Is 0:10:36.510 --> 0:10:38.949 with us for the entire hour. We always look forward 0:10:38.950 --> 0:10:41.670 to our regular conversations with him. He is president of 0:10:41.670 --> 0:10:45.140 Embrace the Truth Ministry. And among the panoply of things 0:10:45.140 --> 0:10:47.699 he does through his ministries. He's got a fabulous podcast. 0:10:47.700 --> 0:10:52.939 So he had an episode recently called Jesus in Islam, Prophet, Messiah, 0:10:52.940 --> 0:10:56.020 but not God. Question mark. And so we're doing a 0:10:56.020 --> 0:10:58.300 side by side comparison. I've already learned things in the 0:10:58.300 --> 0:11:00.140 first part of our conversation, and I bet you have 0:11:00.140 --> 0:11:02.220 as well. So let me pick up where we left off. 0:11:02.540 --> 0:11:06.060 So I find this interesting and and I wonder if 0:11:06.100 --> 0:11:08.660 in the Islamic world, if it's seen as a tension 0:11:08.660 --> 0:11:12.059 or it's just moving past it, because the singular role 0:11:12.260 --> 0:11:15.140 of Jesus is to point to Muhammad. So Jesus does 0:11:15.140 --> 0:11:18.940 miracles according to Quran, but Muhammad does not. But Muhammad 0:11:18.980 --> 0:11:22.059 has to be proclaimed by Jesus because Muhammad ends up 0:11:22.059 --> 0:11:26.420 being the last prophet. That's interesting because one would think, 0:11:26.740 --> 0:11:29.900 and I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective, 0:11:29.900 --> 0:11:33.340 I would think someone who could do miracles would already, 0:11:33.340 --> 0:11:36.740 in the hierarchy of all things supernatural would have my 0:11:36.740 --> 0:11:39.340 attention over someone who was not. Is that not a 0:11:39.340 --> 0:11:40.700 tension in the Islamic world? 0:11:40.780 --> 0:11:43.130 Well, it can be definitely. In fact, one of the 0:11:43.130 --> 0:11:47.250 reasons why miracles are outside of the Quran actually attributed 0:11:47.250 --> 0:11:50.210 to Muhammad is because of the tension you just mentioned. So, 0:11:50.250 --> 0:11:52.570 as I was saying before, the Quran doesn't actually specifically 0:11:52.570 --> 0:11:55.010 say Muhammad performed some miracles. In fact, there are several 0:11:55.010 --> 0:12:00.130 places where it says he didn't. Uh, example is um, uh, 0:12:00.170 --> 0:12:03.650 where there is a um, I'm looking it up real quick. 0:12:03.650 --> 0:12:07.010 There is a section, there's a couple of verses where 0:12:07.130 --> 0:12:11.410 the Quran says, for example, in, um, the 13th chapter, 0:12:11.410 --> 0:12:16.250 seventh verse, uh, the unbelievers were saying, if only some 0:12:16.250 --> 0:12:19.730 sign were sent down upon Muhammad from his Lord. Um, 0:12:19.770 --> 0:12:21.450 in other words, if only there was something that we 0:12:21.450 --> 0:12:23.650 could know was proven. But it says, no, he's only 0:12:23.650 --> 0:12:27.170 a Warner. He only warns people, um, like to come 0:12:27.170 --> 0:12:31.250 back to true monotheism. Um, and there are various commentators 0:12:31.250 --> 0:12:34.050 who made a point that there is no there is 0:12:34.050 --> 0:12:38.090 no miracle story in the Quran except for these vague references, 0:12:38.090 --> 0:12:42.600 for example, in the 17th chapter, uh, verse one, um, 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.400 there is this reference to what's called a mirage, which 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:50.880 is basically a night journey where, um, according to Muslim tradition, uh, 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.640 Muhammad was taken from Mecca. The mosque in Mecca all 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.400 the way to Jerusalem, where the dome of the Rock 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.440 is at. Which is why it's a holy site for Muslims. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:00.719 And he was taken there in a single night by 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.160 a winged horse named Buraq, which means blessing. And the 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.280 only reference you find in the Quran is in chapter 17, 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.720 where it says, uh, glory to God who took his 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.599 servant doesn't even mention Muhammad by name, but his servant 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.679 for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.800 the farthest mosque, whose precincts we blessed in order that 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:19.600 we might show him some of our signs or some 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.280 of our miracles. Well, there's no detail there, and there's 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.720 no eyewitnesses to it. There's also a reference, uh, from 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.679 chapter 54 of the Quran, where, uh, it is said 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.040 that the moon was split, and Muslims will often say 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.960 that there is a, a hadith or a tradition about 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.720 Muhammad where someone said, show me a sign. And he looked, 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:38.600 took his finger in the sky, and he traced out 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.390 the moon and he split the moon with his finger. Now, 0:13:41.670 --> 0:13:46.270 that is not considered necessarily a strong claim or evidence, 0:13:46.270 --> 0:13:48.950 but because of the tension you just mentioned, a lot 0:13:48.950 --> 0:13:52.230 of these, um, a lot of these miracles have to 0:13:52.230 --> 0:13:57.030 be ascribed to Muhammad, because the most recent prophet before 0:13:57.030 --> 0:13:59.110 him was Jesus, and he did a bunch of miracles. 0:13:59.110 --> 0:14:01.470 He was born of a virgin, and in fact was 0:14:01.510 --> 0:14:04.870 an even greater tension is that the Quran refers to 0:14:04.910 --> 0:14:08.190 Jesus as sinless, but it doesn't refer to Muhammad that 0:14:08.190 --> 0:14:11.110 way or anybody else, frankly, as that way. In fact, 0:14:11.110 --> 0:14:14.230 Muhammad has to actually ask in a sort of implied way, 0:14:14.270 --> 0:14:16.110 for forgiveness at the end of his life. 0:14:16.510 --> 0:14:20.630 The tension just keeps growing. So and again, thank you 0:14:20.630 --> 0:14:25.030 for that superb explanation about that. Because if again hierarchical 0:14:25.070 --> 0:14:28.510 just I'm trying to use common sense here. Jesus does miracles, 0:14:28.510 --> 0:14:32.750 Muhammad does not. Muhammad never claims that he's sinless. Jesus is. 0:14:33.110 --> 0:14:35.830 And yet you decide, if I can put it this way, 0:14:35.870 --> 0:14:38.380 to go to a lesser God. I find that interesting 0:14:38.420 --> 0:14:41.340 to me. So what is the attractiveness if the things 0:14:41.340 --> 0:14:46.180 that Jesus can do, um, are not identified or affirmed 0:14:46.180 --> 0:14:50.220 in Qur'anic writing, why would one then subscribe to Muhammad 0:14:50.220 --> 0:14:51.500 as opposed to Jesus? 0:14:52.140 --> 0:14:54.100 Well, I think there's a couple of there's one is 0:14:54.100 --> 0:14:57.020 just a sort of a sociological reason. Yes. And one 0:14:57.020 --> 0:14:59.380 of those sociological reasons is, is that Muhammad had a 0:14:59.380 --> 0:15:02.340 tremendous amount of influence militarily and politically, and he was 0:15:02.340 --> 0:15:05.500 an incredibly charismatic figure in Arabia. So you have this 0:15:05.500 --> 0:15:10.220 growing movement of Muhammad amongst, uh, the pagan Arabs of 0:15:10.220 --> 0:15:12.700 the time who worshipped multiple gods. And Muhammad said, stop 0:15:12.700 --> 0:15:17.180 doing that. Um, he had a, a political affinity, uh, 0:15:17.180 --> 0:15:19.740 or even a theological affinity to a degree with Christians 0:15:19.740 --> 0:15:22.820 and Jews in the beginning of his prophetic career, as 0:15:22.820 --> 0:15:26.340 it were. Um, by saying, Christians and Jews, we all 0:15:26.340 --> 0:15:28.700 believe in the same God. And I affirm your prophets 0:15:28.700 --> 0:15:32.540 and all these things. And so some were converting to Islam, uh, 0:15:32.660 --> 0:15:36.060 by by choice, not necessarily by force. Uh, it was 0:15:36.060 --> 0:15:40.050 when they began to resist him, because he was claiming 0:15:40.090 --> 0:15:42.010 an office that was at least as good, if not 0:15:42.010 --> 0:15:45.010 higher than Jesus, that he, the Quran, starts to turn 0:15:45.010 --> 0:15:47.170 on them, and Muhammad starts to turn on them and 0:15:47.170 --> 0:15:49.770 say that Christians and Jews are amongst the worst of creatures. 0:15:49.810 --> 0:15:52.770 It's actually in the Bible. Sorry, in the Quran. So 0:15:53.050 --> 0:15:55.450 you have this political charismatic thing, but then later on, 0:15:55.450 --> 0:15:58.130 I think what happens is, is you have this sociological development, 0:15:58.130 --> 0:16:00.010 and I've thought about this a lot, and I don't 0:16:00.010 --> 0:16:02.810 have necessarily a historical according to Hoyle, this is how 0:16:02.810 --> 0:16:04.850 this happened kind of a thing. But I suspect it, 0:16:04.850 --> 0:16:08.810 based on my interactions and my history, is that Muhammad 0:16:08.850 --> 0:16:11.850 is for the Middle Easterners and for the Arabs especially, 0:16:11.850 --> 0:16:16.370 specifically the Arabs. He's theirs. He's their guy like he is. 0:16:16.370 --> 0:16:22.170 He legitimizes the the people of the Arabian people in 0:16:22.170 --> 0:16:25.530 light of the the Jews and the Romans of the 0:16:25.530 --> 0:16:28.970 time especially, they were, you know, had offices, they had 0:16:28.970 --> 0:16:32.250 prophetic offices, they had political offices. And along comes an 0:16:32.250 --> 0:16:35.360 Arabian who says, hey, I'm from the same line, the 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.160 line of Ishmael, from Abraham, from an Abrahamic faith. And 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.720 so this effort to legitimize Muhammad and to have this 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.040 affinity for him, there has to be a loyalty and 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.520 a fealty to him that is beyond actual rationality, because 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.640 even Muslims will tell you. The Quran specifically says we 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.480 make no distinction amongst the prophets. There is no distinction. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.440 They all have equal office. Muhammad happens to be the 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.400 last one who delivered the perfect book. But he's not 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.600 greater in the sense that he himself is ontologically greater. 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.720 Yet Muslims will take great offense if someone makes fun 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.920 of Muhammad but not Jesus, they're fine with Jesus being 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.560 made fun of, but not Muhammad. And it's partly because 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.320 there is this loyalty and fealty to Muhammad based on 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:19.800 ethnicity and sociology. 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.640 Boy, that's fascinating because Jesus is in the Quran, okay, 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.680 this isn't a superimposition. He's in there already. And so 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:32.520 there's a kind of, um, interesting, uh, waltz that has 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.520 to be played around this when we come back. Abdul, 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.800 I was just thinking when you were talking. I bet 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:38.760 there are a whole lot of people who could say, well, 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.800 I didn't even know if Muhammad was real. Tell me 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.720 a little bit about his biography that he is a historical, 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.720 historically substantiated person that was in history. Tell me something 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.280 about his background. Abdul Murray is with us. The purpose 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.040 of all of this is to get fire in your 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.600 bones so you can share Jesus with your Muslim friends 0:17:54.600 --> 0:18:02.880 back after this. We're visiting with Abdul Murray, president of 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.800 Embrace the Truth Ministry. Prolific author, by the way. Let 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.800 me run some titles past you again. Saving truth, Grand 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.760 central question, uh, apocalypse later, and his most recent book, 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.480 More Than a White Man's Religion. And he's got a 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.080 great podcast as well. All of that can be found 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:19.679 at Embrace the Truth. And I've got a link to 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:24.239 the ministry. Not hard to forget. Embrace the truth. I 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.840 guess I meant not hard to remember. Embrace the truth. 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.960 So we're doing a side by side comparison about exactly 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.790 what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. And so I 0:18:33.790 --> 0:18:36.710 was thinking, I don't doubt for one second the historicity 0:18:36.710 --> 0:18:40.270 of Jesus Christ, the extra-biblical affirmation of his existence. And 0:18:40.270 --> 0:18:43.070 all of the times we've talked over the years, Abdu, 0:18:43.109 --> 0:18:46.030 about how he can be historically substantiated even outside the 0:18:46.030 --> 0:18:49.150 parameters of Scripture. Can the same thing be said of Mohammed? 0:18:49.150 --> 0:18:51.350 And if the answer is yes, what can you tell 0:18:51.390 --> 0:18:52.390 us about him? 0:18:53.150 --> 0:18:57.470 Well, um. Well, the surprisingly little actually, that specifically mentions 0:18:57.470 --> 0:19:01.870 Muhammad outside of Islam's own sources. So, for example, you'd 0:19:01.869 --> 0:19:05.350 expect to see a lot more from Romans and from Persians, uh, 0:19:05.390 --> 0:19:09.830 with whom he interacted, um, uh, and other other people's, um, 0:19:09.990 --> 0:19:13.909 various religious groups or, um, even political groups with whom 0:19:13.910 --> 0:19:17.629 he interacted. There's very little outside of the Islamic sources, 0:19:17.670 --> 0:19:19.909 not something I would think that's nothing like the the 0:19:19.910 --> 0:19:22.629 riches we find in terms of the not only Jesus himself, 0:19:22.630 --> 0:19:24.790 but the early Christian church. Well, you do have some 0:19:24.790 --> 0:19:27.710 you do have some references that are either, uh, indirectly 0:19:27.710 --> 0:19:29.990 related to, say, say, talk about Muhammad as a person 0:19:30.030 --> 0:19:32.740 like mentioned, his name. But there's a lot of reference to, 0:19:32.780 --> 0:19:35.660 you know, a leader of the Muslims and that kind 0:19:35.660 --> 0:19:37.940 of thing. So you do see some of that. Um, 0:19:38.100 --> 0:19:40.659 largely what we have in terms of the understanding of 0:19:40.660 --> 0:19:43.020 the history and the life of Muhammad comes from the 0:19:43.020 --> 0:19:45.860 hadith literature and what's called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is 0:19:45.859 --> 0:19:50.300 like the the biography of Muhammad, largely compiled from the hadith. 0:19:50.340 --> 0:19:53.500 Hadith comes from an Arabic word which means to discuss. 0:19:53.540 --> 0:19:56.899 It also means something that happens like a an event. 0:19:57.020 --> 0:19:59.660 And so the hadith are a collection, and there's like 0:19:59.660 --> 0:20:05.660 six authoritative collections, um, of various hadith, which are traditions 0:20:05.660 --> 0:20:09.740 about Muhammad. So what you'd get is a statement that is, um, 0:20:09.740 --> 0:20:12.460 brought about by a chain. So you'd have like thus 0:20:12.460 --> 0:20:14.780 in such a person heard thus in such a person 0:20:14.820 --> 0:20:18.500 say that one of Muhammad's closest friends said that Muhammad said, 0:20:18.780 --> 0:20:21.820 so you'd have that kind of that kind of a chain. Um, 0:20:21.859 --> 0:20:24.740 and some of them are direct, like, um, this guy said, 0:20:24.740 --> 0:20:27.379 I heard Muhammad say, um, and so you'd have a 0:20:27.380 --> 0:20:31.290 lot of the history of Muhammad from that collection, and 0:20:31.290 --> 0:20:33.890 there are various versions that are spurious. There are things 0:20:33.890 --> 0:20:37.450 that like likely didn't happen, uh, but they're still compiled. 0:20:37.450 --> 0:20:40.170 There's other things that likely did happen, but we have 0:20:40.170 --> 0:20:43.250 this from this oral tradition, and what we don't have 0:20:43.570 --> 0:20:47.850 is anything written down about Muhammad's life in any real 0:20:47.850 --> 0:20:51.650 sense from these hadith traditions until about 100 to 150 0:20:51.650 --> 0:20:54.490 years after Muhammad's death. Now, that doesn't mean that they 0:20:54.490 --> 0:20:57.129 didn't exist. It just meant they existed in an oral form, 0:20:57.130 --> 0:20:59.650 and they weren't written down in any authoritative way. And 0:20:59.650 --> 0:21:02.410 so there was compilations that had to be collected about 0:21:02.410 --> 0:21:05.530 Muhammad's life. Um, but traditionally, and I think we can, 0:21:05.530 --> 0:21:08.650 with some confidence, actually say Muhammad was a real person. 0:21:08.650 --> 0:21:11.050 He really did, in fact, exist. He was the he 0:21:11.050 --> 0:21:14.330 was the founder of Islam. And he, um, was a 0:21:14.730 --> 0:21:18.090 at least a political leader who had theological heft to 0:21:18.130 --> 0:21:21.050 the things he was saying that gave him a religious 0:21:21.050 --> 0:21:24.530 movement that became a political movement mixed with religion as well. 0:21:24.570 --> 0:21:26.689 So I think we can say that, um, so I 0:21:26.690 --> 0:21:30.360 think we can say that with with relative relative certainty. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.320 I don't think the same certainty exists with that claim 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.920 as does with other historical figures, uh, including and especially 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.480 Jesus and the early church, which is ironic because Muhammad 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.840 was born in 570 A.D. so you talk about 500 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.879 years after Jesus's life, and yet we have less evidence, um, 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.800 outside of Islam, for Muhammad than we have for Jesus, 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.120 who was 600 years before him, uh, or 500 years 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:57.440 before him. So that's just interesting all by itself. 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.919 So much again. And I bet everybody is just as 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:04.680 being impacted as much as I am about information they 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:07.560 really didn't know before. So raises a couple of questions. 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:09.680 And I ask you this because this is not academic 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.280 for you. You were on a nine year journey and 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.000 there were things that you plowed through, including the historicity 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:17.040 of the scriptures. So I loved what you said before, 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.960 that he and I'm not being disrespectful, but he's kind 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.400 of like, he's our guy, all right? He's ours. He 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.720 gets passed down generationally, you know, our fathers before us, etc., 0:22:25.869 --> 0:22:30.270 going back multiple generations. And so questions like the. Well, 0:22:30.430 --> 0:22:35.389 there's very little that substantiates his existence outside of. Within 0:22:35.390 --> 0:22:37.230 the parameters of our own writing. In other words, there 0:22:37.230 --> 0:22:41.190 is no Josephus who can identify a Mohammed. So I 0:22:41.190 --> 0:22:44.750 find that interesting. But then again, maybe not such a problem, 0:22:44.750 --> 0:22:48.790 because I'm not sure for the Muslim who wants to 0:22:48.830 --> 0:22:51.750 affirm what they already believe, if that becomes a stumbling 0:22:51.750 --> 0:22:54.310 block in their investigation. I may have said that cryptically, 0:22:54.310 --> 0:22:55.470 but does that make sense? 0:22:55.510 --> 0:22:57.389 No it does. It does make a lot of sense, actually. 0:22:57.390 --> 0:22:59.310 And I want to say that there are there are 0:22:59.350 --> 0:23:02.910 some there's not a Josephus style. There's not a Suetonius 0:23:02.910 --> 0:23:05.869 or a Tacitus, you know, kind of enemies of the, 0:23:05.910 --> 0:23:08.389 of the Christian faith who reference reference Jesus and the 0:23:08.390 --> 0:23:12.710 movement that he started. Um, but there are some references, uh, 0:23:12.710 --> 0:23:17.109 like the doctrine of Jacobi, uh, you know, six hundreds, uh, 0:23:17.150 --> 0:23:20.510 in the common era, there's a couple of, um, references 0:23:20.510 --> 0:23:24.900 to Islam and Muslims and Muhammad in sort of veiled ways, 0:23:24.900 --> 0:23:27.379 but they're not nearly as strong. It does create a tension, though, 0:23:27.380 --> 0:23:29.740 when you begin to look at this stuff. Um, you 0:23:29.780 --> 0:23:34.100 think to yourself, if he was this influential, especially politically, um, 0:23:34.100 --> 0:23:37.379 and especially militarily, you'd expect to see a lot more 0:23:37.380 --> 0:23:40.260 information with Jesus. It's interesting because people often make the 0:23:40.260 --> 0:23:42.260 same claim with Jesus. Oh, we should see if he's 0:23:42.260 --> 0:23:44.899 this influential. We should see tons of information about him 0:23:44.900 --> 0:23:47.619 from non-Christian sources. Well, the first thing is we do. 0:23:47.660 --> 0:23:51.140 We have exactly. We have plenty. But we wouldn't see 0:23:51.140 --> 0:23:55.260 the Romans outside of their historians writing documents about their 0:23:55.260 --> 0:23:58.379 conquests or their battles against Jesus because he had none. 0:23:58.380 --> 0:24:01.620 He didn't do it that way. But Muhammad did. You 0:24:01.619 --> 0:24:05.860 have battles and all these progressions, so you'd expect there 0:24:05.859 --> 0:24:08.219 to be at least something from his enemies that would 0:24:08.260 --> 0:24:10.580 either say we conquered him or he conquered us. And 0:24:10.580 --> 0:24:12.260 we have no, we have almost none of that. 0:24:12.900 --> 0:24:13.260 Wow. 0:24:13.380 --> 0:24:15.820 Absolutely fascinating. Okay, I still have a ton of questions. 0:24:15.820 --> 0:24:17.500 I'm hearing the music. So let me take a clean 0:24:17.500 --> 0:24:19.940 break here and we'll come back. Abdul Murray is with us. 0:24:19.940 --> 0:24:22.060 This is why we just love when he comes to visit. 0:24:22.100 --> 0:24:24.890 He really gets the pistons of our mind firing, doesn't he? 0:24:25.090 --> 0:24:27.170 And again, why are we doing this? It isn't just 0:24:27.170 --> 0:24:29.970 a matter of going yawn. It's comparative theology. No, it's 0:24:29.970 --> 0:24:32.570 much more than that. If you want to become all 0:24:32.570 --> 0:24:35.770 things to all people so that by all means, some 0:24:35.770 --> 0:24:38.450 might be saved, I want to know because when I'm 0:24:38.450 --> 0:24:41.250 sharing Jesus with someone that's a neighbor or a friend 0:24:41.250 --> 0:24:43.770 or a coworker who happens to be a subscriber to Islam, 0:24:43.770 --> 0:24:45.850 I want to know where they're coming from. Paul did 0:24:45.890 --> 0:24:48.530 when he was in Athens. Acts 17. So I want 0:24:48.530 --> 0:24:50.449 to know, and I'm learning a ton of stuff. I 0:24:50.450 --> 0:24:58.370 hope you are too back after this. What's the goal 0:24:58.369 --> 0:25:00.490 of in the market? I'll tell you in the market 0:25:00.490 --> 0:25:03.490 equips men and women to think critically and act biblically. 0:25:03.530 --> 0:25:05.130 Why do we do this? So that we can be 0:25:05.130 --> 0:25:07.970 confident when speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are 0:25:07.970 --> 0:25:10.530 you willing to stand with me? Become a partial partner today, 0:25:10.530 --> 0:25:13.929 and enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while making 0:25:13.930 --> 0:25:17.730 an impact for the Kingdom. Call 877 Janet 58 or 0:25:17.730 --> 0:25:20.330 go online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot. 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:26.800 Abdul Murray is the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:29.480 He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:32.880 speaker and a writer through his ministry, does a fabulous job. 0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:37.440 He's authored several books, excuse me, including Saving Truth, Grand 0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:40.879 Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and his latest, More Than a 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:43.560 White Man's Religion. He speaks all over the world. He 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:46.600 contends for the faith. He does so beautifully and and 0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:48.679 embrace the truth. He also has a podcast, which he 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:53.840 did recently on Jesus in Islam. Had to get that 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:55.639 off air. And now we go back to what he 0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:59.600 was saying before. So I'm doing I found it interesting 0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:01.879 you said that Muhammad is deemed to be the founder 0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:04.280 of Islam, and yet there are all these prophets that 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:07.520 precede him. Why is he deemed to be the founder then? 0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:11.240 Well, that's actually a great question, because oftentimes, and I 0:26:11.240 --> 0:26:14.639 want to make sure I qualify that statement. Um, is 0:26:14.680 --> 0:26:18.200 Muhammad is deemed, you know, historically speaking, and even theologically 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:21.230 to some degree to be the founder of Islam. Although 0:26:21.270 --> 0:26:24.550 Muslims would say that Islam actually began with Adam, that 0:26:24.550 --> 0:26:26.830 Adam and Eve were actually Muslims, in fact, the Quran 0:26:26.869 --> 0:26:29.630 actually describes them as that way is that when they 0:26:29.990 --> 0:26:31.869 eat of the fruit that they should not be eating, 0:26:31.869 --> 0:26:36.150 they are cast down from the garden and, uh, God's 0:26:36.150 --> 0:26:39.070 reward to them, not for their sin, but because they're 0:26:39.070 --> 0:26:42.070 human beings and his his not reward, but his gift 0:26:42.070 --> 0:26:44.389 to them. Uh, instead of just casting them out of 0:26:44.390 --> 0:26:46.630 the garden, was to give them a way back, to 0:26:46.670 --> 0:26:49.150 come back into God's good graces, which was what's called 0:26:49.150 --> 0:26:52.790 the huda or the the guidance or the wisdom, um, 0:26:52.830 --> 0:26:57.110 which is taken to be the law or, uh, the, uh, 0:26:57.150 --> 0:27:00.470 sort of doctrinal statements and law that they're supposed to 0:27:00.510 --> 0:27:03.109 not only believe but also follow and that that is 0:27:03.109 --> 0:27:08.869 consistent throughout all of the prophets, from Adam to Noah 0:27:08.869 --> 0:27:14.510 to Abraham to Moses, um, down through David, John the Baptist, uh, 0:27:14.510 --> 0:27:18.580 Jesus himself and eventually Muhammad. So, technically speaking, a muslim 0:27:18.580 --> 0:27:20.820 would say Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. God 0:27:20.820 --> 0:27:24.620 is the founder of Islam through the very first prophet, Adam. Now, 0:27:24.619 --> 0:27:27.580 having said that, um, what Muslims also believe is that 0:27:27.619 --> 0:27:31.419 the Quran is the divine revelation which eternally existed, but 0:27:31.420 --> 0:27:34.619 came as the last revelation to fix all the corruption 0:27:34.619 --> 0:27:37.740 that had happened in the previous scriptures. And so Muhammad 0:27:37.780 --> 0:27:40.140 is the founder of Islam in the sense that he 0:27:40.140 --> 0:27:42.580 established a religion and was the most successful of the 0:27:42.580 --> 0:27:48.060 prophets because his, his, his revelation was never changed. Um, 0:27:48.100 --> 0:27:51.300 the Quran according to Muslims has never been changed and 0:27:51.300 --> 0:27:53.260 the message has stayed the same. And he brought us 0:27:53.260 --> 0:27:56.980 back to the true and authentic monotheism of Adam all 0:27:56.980 --> 0:28:00.500 the way through to Jesus. Whereas Jesus and Noah and 0:28:00.700 --> 0:28:05.380 and Abraham and David, all of their revelations were eventually 0:28:05.500 --> 0:28:09.060 corrupted in some way. Uh, but Muhammad was not. And 0:28:09.060 --> 0:28:11.620 so that's sort of again, answers the first question, which 0:28:11.619 --> 0:28:13.820 is why Muhammad and, you know, why is he so special? Well, 0:28:13.820 --> 0:28:16.770 that's one reason. And two, is he the founder? Yes, 0:28:16.770 --> 0:28:20.290 of the stable religion. But Adam technically is the very 0:28:20.290 --> 0:28:21.810 first believer in Islam. 0:28:22.490 --> 0:28:25.330 Wow. Absolutely fascinating. I meant to ask you this. When 0:28:25.330 --> 0:28:27.010 we came back after the break. And let me ask 0:28:27.010 --> 0:28:31.490 it now. Your knowledge just flows out of you on this. Abdul, 0:28:31.530 --> 0:28:33.929 you can quote the hadith and you talk about the Quran. 0:28:34.210 --> 0:28:37.450 Is this because you studied this from a child growing up, 0:28:37.450 --> 0:28:40.650 or did you study this, uh, to go deep into 0:28:40.650 --> 0:28:43.530 it as you were on your nine year exploration that 0:28:43.530 --> 0:28:44.570 took you to the cross? 0:28:44.930 --> 0:28:49.610 Well, it's both. And then one more. Um, it's both because, um, 0:28:49.610 --> 0:28:52.690 I had been taught a lot of stuff as a kid, um, 0:28:52.690 --> 0:28:54.770 about Islam, and I actually took a lot of that 0:28:54.770 --> 0:28:56.810 stuff and went further with it because I had sort 0:28:56.810 --> 0:28:59.370 of a sense of religious devotion, uh, even as a 0:28:59.370 --> 0:29:02.450 child and well into teen years and that kind of stuff. 0:29:02.490 --> 0:29:05.490 It was when I was in college when I really 0:29:05.490 --> 0:29:08.010 began to, like, think, okay, do I believe this because 0:29:08.010 --> 0:29:09.970 it's true, or do I believe it because it's tradition 0:29:09.970 --> 0:29:12.210 and there's a whole story behind that. But then I 0:29:12.210 --> 0:29:16.050 began to look even more into it and alongside Christianity 0:29:16.050 --> 0:29:19.930 and other, you know, uh, worldviews and systems just to 0:29:20.170 --> 0:29:22.970 get a firmer grasp of what this really teaches. Um, 0:29:22.970 --> 0:29:25.010 and so during that journey, I began to take this 0:29:25.010 --> 0:29:27.970 deeper dive, deeper look into the foundations of the thing 0:29:27.970 --> 0:29:29.730 that I had believed my whole life. I had a 0:29:29.730 --> 0:29:32.090 foundation already set, but a lot of this stuff was 0:29:32.090 --> 0:29:35.650 developed during that nine year journey. And then the. And 0:29:35.690 --> 0:29:38.010 is that after that nine year journey was complete and 0:29:38.010 --> 0:29:40.930 I gave my life to Christ. Um, I began to 0:29:40.930 --> 0:29:43.530 look even further because what I wanted to do was 0:29:43.530 --> 0:29:46.610 to make sure that one I had made the right decision. 0:29:46.610 --> 0:29:49.729 And two, I wanted to make sure that if I, 0:29:49.770 --> 0:29:53.530 if I if I extol this virtue of of Christianity, 0:29:53.530 --> 0:29:56.969 this credibility of Christianity, I believe you have to do 0:29:56.970 --> 0:29:59.810 it in comparison. Oftentimes, you know, as Guinness, the great 0:30:00.010 --> 0:30:03.330 Guinness said, comparison is the mother of clarity. And when 0:30:03.330 --> 0:30:06.210 you understand this stuff and you really dive into it, 0:30:06.210 --> 0:30:08.730 you begin to be able to give a better clarity 0:30:08.730 --> 0:30:12.530 because you're able to compare a different worldview. And I 0:30:12.570 --> 0:30:14.840 have a strong heart for Muslims. Given my background. I 0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:17.400 preach to everybody, but Muslims hold a special place in 0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:19.880 my heart because of my own background. So I wanted 0:30:19.880 --> 0:30:21.360 to learn more about them, and I think that's the 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:24.760 most important, critical thing is, before you cast aspersions at 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:26.880 someone else's worldview, make sure you know it. Now, do 0:30:26.880 --> 0:30:29.720 you have to know every single thing about it? Absolutely not. 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:32.600 You don't. But I'm sort of one of those guys 0:30:32.600 --> 0:30:34.760 who I like the detail and I like to do this. 0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:36.800 And then the fourth thing I'll add on the journey 0:30:36.800 --> 0:30:39.880 is when you get involved in debates and dialogues on 0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:43.600 this stuff, in formalized debates and these kind of conversations, 0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.000 people bring up things you didn't necessarily know, and you 0:30:46.000 --> 0:30:48.200 have to go and dive into it ahead of time 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:50.240 or in reaction to it. And so a lot of 0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:52.360 what I know is because of that as well. 0:30:52.640 --> 0:30:56.320 Wow. So there's my observation. I could be dead wrong, 0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:59.479 but my subjective observation on this is that there is, 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:03.400 within the parameters of Islam, a family element that I 0:31:03.400 --> 0:31:07.560 don't see fully replicated in Christianity. Maybe it's because in 0:31:07.560 --> 0:31:09.640 my travels to the Middle East, one of you talk 0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:11.719 about being dumb. That's why Mark Twain said, you know, 0:31:11.870 --> 0:31:14.709 travel is the best classroom. I did not realize that 0:31:14.710 --> 0:31:16.150 when you traveled in the Middle East, you have an 0:31:16.150 --> 0:31:19.070 ID card and there's an M after your name for Muslim, 0:31:19.310 --> 0:31:21.990 and it has to be changed if you become a Christian, 0:31:21.990 --> 0:31:23.990 and then that changes to a C and that doesn't 0:31:23.990 --> 0:31:27.430 come without consequences. And so it is more than just 0:31:27.430 --> 0:31:29.990 making a proclamation of faith and understanding that you're going 0:31:30.030 --> 0:31:32.670 to follow Jesus. You've now made a public declaration through 0:31:32.710 --> 0:31:37.030 your official identification whose you are. But for Muslims, what 0:31:37.030 --> 0:31:39.870 I learned very quickly is it isn't about evangelizing. I'm 0:31:39.870 --> 0:31:42.070 going to use all of my Christianized term and superimpose 0:31:42.070 --> 0:31:43.830 it on Islam, but I think my friends will understand 0:31:43.830 --> 0:31:48.070 it if I use those terms. So there's no evangelizing, 0:31:48.070 --> 0:31:50.229 and very often what I see was or what I 0:31:50.230 --> 0:31:54.790 saw was it's generational impact. My great grandfather, my grandfather, 0:31:54.790 --> 0:31:57.030 and it just went down and there was no aha 0:31:57.030 --> 0:31:59.950 moment of conversion. I got saved when I was seven. 0:31:59.950 --> 0:32:03.270 It was I was immersed totally in an Islamic household. 0:32:03.270 --> 0:32:05.390 That's all we've ever known. That's all we'll ever be. 0:32:05.390 --> 0:32:08.830 That's who we are as a people, as a family. Now, 0:32:09.070 --> 0:32:12.060 is that an is that an obtuse observation, or is 0:32:12.060 --> 0:32:13.380 there some truth in that? 0:32:13.700 --> 0:32:16.340 No, there's a lot of truth in it, actually. Um, 0:32:16.340 --> 0:32:21.380 there is, uh, a real sense in which, uh, you are, um, 0:32:21.580 --> 0:32:24.980 a born a muslim. Muslims believe you are born a muslim, 0:32:24.980 --> 0:32:27.740 and it is the world that changes you into a 0:32:27.740 --> 0:32:30.180 Christian or a Jew or whatever it might be, or 0:32:30.220 --> 0:32:32.980 a Hindu or a Buddhist. You're born with an innate 0:32:32.980 --> 0:32:39.700 sense of monotheism and monotheism that is very Islamic. Unitarian monotheism. Um, 0:32:39.780 --> 0:32:44.260 and then that tradition is fostered because the East and 0:32:44.260 --> 0:32:47.340 the Middle East is categorized by an honor and shame culture, 0:32:47.460 --> 0:32:49.100 which has its benefits. You know, it's it's got it's 0:32:49.100 --> 0:32:52.380 tremendous benefits. It's tremendous benefit is that you do that 0:32:52.380 --> 0:32:55.660 which brings honor and you avoid that which brings shame, uh, 0:32:55.660 --> 0:32:58.500 to your community and to your family and to the 0:32:58.500 --> 0:33:01.660 country and then to the religion itself. Now, that's good 0:33:01.660 --> 0:33:03.380 in one sense, because what you do is you think 0:33:03.380 --> 0:33:06.380 of others before you think of yourself. It's not so 0:33:06.420 --> 0:33:09.810 individualistic that you don't think of the ramifications of your beliefs, 0:33:09.810 --> 0:33:12.130 your actions and these kind of things on others. The 0:33:12.130 --> 0:33:14.610 shadow side. And everything's got a shadow side this side 0:33:14.610 --> 0:33:16.970 of heaven, the shadow side is that you're willing to 0:33:17.010 --> 0:33:21.250 believe false things, even things that you might know are false, 0:33:21.490 --> 0:33:25.570 because believing otherwise would bring shame to your family. Yes. 0:33:25.610 --> 0:33:28.130 And so, yes, that is exactly. You're hitting the nail 0:33:28.170 --> 0:33:30.010 right on the head. One of the reasons why it's 0:33:30.010 --> 0:33:32.690 so difficult to break in to the Muslim heart and 0:33:32.690 --> 0:33:34.690 the Muslim mind with the good news, and it is 0:33:34.690 --> 0:33:37.690 great news, is that they see the bad news. And 0:33:37.690 --> 0:33:41.090 the bad news is, if I accept this, I could 0:33:41.090 --> 0:33:43.570 lose everything. I could lose my sense of community, my 0:33:43.570 --> 0:33:45.850 sense of identity. I could lose family. I could even 0:33:45.850 --> 0:33:49.250 possibly lose my life. And so oftentimes we say John 0:33:49.250 --> 0:33:52.610 316 and it sounds so fantastic, but they're thinking all 0:33:52.650 --> 0:33:55.650 the negative consequences. So yeah, that's you've hit it, you've 0:33:55.650 --> 0:33:58.090 nailed it. And that's exactly what happens. It's not obtuse. 0:33:58.090 --> 0:34:00.090 It's actually concrete. And by the way, that's not just 0:34:00.090 --> 0:34:03.130 a middle eastern regional thing for all the Muslims that 0:34:03.130 --> 0:34:06.370 are here in the United States and across the world, 0:34:06.610 --> 0:34:10.400 whether it's in the Western world or in the Muslim world. Um, 0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:14.759 that's a that's a truism. That's a true thing for everybody. Um, yeah. 0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:17.120 I'll tell you a quick story, very short. I was 0:34:17.120 --> 0:34:20.680 witnessing to a muslim guy, and he was acknowledging every 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:23.120 single thing I was saying is true in his own journey. 0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:25.760 And tears were flowing from his eyes, and he looked 0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:27.560 down at his shoes as if the answers to all 0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:29.880 the world's questions, wherever was written on his shoes, he 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:32.400 would not look up. And he said under his breath, 0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:34.920 my father has never told me he's proud of me, 0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:36.799 and that he loves me. And if I become a 0:34:36.800 --> 0:34:39.759 if I become a Christian, he never will. And that 0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:42.240 was his chief barrier. So yes, it's a huge part. 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.319 Wow. That breaks my heart. I get tears in my 0:34:45.320 --> 0:34:48.120 eyes when I think about that. I'm thinking also, if 0:34:48.120 --> 0:34:50.319 anybody is as old as I am, let me give 0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:53.040 you a cultural reference that really underscores what Abdul was saying. 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:55.960 So I remember George W Bush giving a press conference, 0:34:55.960 --> 0:34:57.400 and it was the middle of the conflict of the 0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:59.279 Middle East, and the reporter took his shoe and threw 0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:02.840 it at President Bush. And most people in America wouldn't 0:35:02.840 --> 0:35:06.109 have understood that. That goes exactly to what Abdul was 0:35:06.110 --> 0:35:08.430 talking about. The throwing the shoe is very often that 0:35:08.430 --> 0:35:12.350 symbol of shame being transmitted to another person. And I 0:35:12.350 --> 0:35:15.030 don't think in the Western mind we understood the significance 0:35:15.030 --> 0:35:16.870 of that. I remember the president kind of made some 0:35:16.910 --> 0:35:19.390 offhand comment like, you miss me or something like that 0:35:19.390 --> 0:35:22.430 after it happened, but it was really he was angry 0:35:22.430 --> 0:35:24.390 at what was happening in that part of the world, 0:35:24.390 --> 0:35:26.750 and he was shaming the president by throwing his shoe 0:35:26.750 --> 0:35:29.750 at him. Um, so I want to underscore that the 0:35:29.750 --> 0:35:32.109 other thing, too, and it takes me back to you personally, Abdul. 0:35:32.110 --> 0:35:33.549 And I bet my music's going to play. But let 0:35:33.550 --> 0:35:36.830 me start the question anyway. So you do this wonderful 0:35:36.830 --> 0:35:40.350 deep dive for nine years, all the stones that you 0:35:40.350 --> 0:35:43.189 overturned that I talked about earlier, but the one stone 0:35:43.190 --> 0:35:45.069 that had to be the heaviest of all is who 0:35:45.070 --> 0:35:48.069 am I going to be in this family if I 0:35:48.070 --> 0:35:50.950 accept Jesus as my Savior? I'm one of them, but 0:35:50.950 --> 0:35:53.790 I won't be one of them. I, as a son, 0:35:53.989 --> 0:35:56.110 do not ever want to bring shame and dishonor to 0:35:56.150 --> 0:35:58.989 my family. Why am I having to make this Hobson's 0:35:58.989 --> 0:36:03.150 choice between following Jesus and remaining a beloved son in 0:36:03.150 --> 0:36:05.060 my own family? Now the music's music is playing. So 0:36:05.100 --> 0:36:06.819 let me get your reaction to that. And maybe this 0:36:06.820 --> 0:36:09.100 is a blessing. Think about that. Because how often in 0:36:09.100 --> 0:36:12.620 the United States when you decide to say yes, he's Lord, 0:36:13.100 --> 0:36:15.540 I want him as Savior in my life? How often 0:36:15.580 --> 0:36:17.900 do we think and it will happen? In some cases, 0:36:17.900 --> 0:36:19.980 I grant you. But does it happen to the same 0:36:19.980 --> 0:36:22.779 extent as it does, for example, in the Islamic and 0:36:22.780 --> 0:36:25.260 quite honestly, in the Jewish world as well? They'll hold 0:36:25.260 --> 0:36:27.740 funerals for Jews who come to faith in Jesus Christ 0:36:27.739 --> 0:36:30.660 sometime because you're dead to me, because you came to Christ. 0:36:30.660 --> 0:36:32.660 So this is something to think about when you're sharing 0:36:32.660 --> 0:36:35.980 that good news that there's a price to be paid sometimes, 0:36:35.980 --> 0:36:51.740 and we should always remember that back after this. Embrace 0:36:51.739 --> 0:36:56.020 the truth. That's the website for Abdul Murray's ministry. Embrace 0:36:56.020 --> 0:36:59.300 the truth. Embrace the truth. And it's one of those 0:36:59.300 --> 0:37:03.770 deliciously rich sites with tons of information, links to books 0:37:03.770 --> 0:37:06.730 and articles that I've written and podcasts that he does. 0:37:06.730 --> 0:37:08.210 So check it out, please. I want you to know 0:37:08.210 --> 0:37:11.250 and love this ministry. And germane to our conversation this 0:37:11.250 --> 0:37:13.490 hour is I've got a direct link to a recent 0:37:13.489 --> 0:37:17.930 podcast he did called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah Dot 0:37:17.969 --> 0:37:20.890 dot dot, but not God. Question mark. And there's so 0:37:20.890 --> 0:37:22.489 much more. By the way, it's actually a two part. 0:37:22.489 --> 0:37:24.049 But I want you to start this, and then you're 0:37:24.050 --> 0:37:25.410 going to be hungry enough to want to get the 0:37:25.410 --> 0:37:27.489 second part. But I wanted to go on a very 0:37:27.489 --> 0:37:30.210 personal level about the idea, and I thank you for 0:37:30.210 --> 0:37:34.090 explaining this idea that there is this generational impact, this 0:37:34.290 --> 0:37:38.290 deep bonds of familial connection, that you're born a muslim. 0:37:38.930 --> 0:37:43.009 And so you, Abdou, this beautifully eloquent man for the 0:37:43.050 --> 0:37:47.290 gospel and yet passionate about your family and a very 0:37:47.290 --> 0:37:51.370 observant Muslim that concluded after about one minute, but nine 0:37:51.370 --> 0:37:55.330 years of investigation and part of those deep night of 0:37:55.330 --> 0:37:57.890 the soul moments had to be, God, what are you 0:37:57.890 --> 0:37:59.770 going to do with me and my family? How did 0:37:59.770 --> 0:38:00.890 you resolve that? 0:38:02.120 --> 0:38:04.640 Well, that's why it took nine years. I've often put 0:38:04.640 --> 0:38:08.080 it this way, and I think this is this encapsulates it. 0:38:08.080 --> 0:38:10.600 And I want to sort of start the response by 0:38:10.600 --> 0:38:13.279 this is that it took me nine years to, to 0:38:13.320 --> 0:38:15.720 to come to faith in Christ, not because the evidence 0:38:15.719 --> 0:38:17.920 was hard to find. I found all the evidence I 0:38:17.920 --> 0:38:21.839 needed sufficient to make a commitment to Christ. I didn't 0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:24.560 find all the answers. I still don't have all the answers. Um, 0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:28.040 but I found but I sufficiently found, I found sufficient 0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:30.160 answers to give my life to Jesus within about two 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:33.719 years of that search. Um, but it took seven more 0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:37.839 years to wrestle with that evidence and reshape it and 0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:40.799 rethink it and mull it over a little bit more 0:38:40.800 --> 0:38:43.360 to shine it, to buff it, to scratch it sometimes 0:38:43.600 --> 0:38:48.319 all that stuff, because it didn't take me. It was 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:50.480 it wasn't an easy and easy decision because there was 0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:52.680 an identity issue. Who was I? Who was I going 0:38:52.680 --> 0:38:56.080 to be within myself? I liked being a muslim. Um, 0:38:56.600 --> 0:38:58.000 who was I going to be to my family and 0:38:58.000 --> 0:39:01.270 my community? Who was I going to be? And so 0:39:01.270 --> 0:39:03.109 how I put it is this. The answers were not 0:39:03.110 --> 0:39:06.190 hard to find, but they were hard to embrace. Um, 0:39:06.230 --> 0:39:07.870 and that's why the ministry's called that, by the way. 0:39:07.870 --> 0:39:10.590 That's why we're called Embrace the Truth. Because the answer 0:39:10.590 --> 0:39:12.549 was hard to. The answers were not hard to find, 0:39:12.550 --> 0:39:14.230 but they are hard to embrace. And so part of 0:39:14.230 --> 0:39:17.670 our approach is to do what Blaise Pascal said is 0:39:17.670 --> 0:39:20.630 to make good people wish it were true, and then 0:39:20.630 --> 0:39:23.350 show them that it is. You show them the beauty 0:39:23.350 --> 0:39:26.110 of it. And so it took me this long, because 0:39:26.110 --> 0:39:28.149 I had to be so compelled that I was willing 0:39:28.190 --> 0:39:31.350 to risk so much. For me, it just this has 0:39:31.350 --> 0:39:33.390 to be true. If this is even remotely close to, 0:39:33.710 --> 0:39:36.709 to to a reasonable doubt about its truth, then I 0:39:36.710 --> 0:39:40.950 need to not do this. Because for me, the earthly 0:39:41.190 --> 0:39:46.390 and the sort of, uh, corporeal consequences were too great. Um, 0:39:46.390 --> 0:39:48.509 that doesn't mean that they really are. It just meant 0:39:48.510 --> 0:39:50.549 that in my mind, they were. So that's why it 0:39:50.550 --> 0:39:53.710 took me that long. But I began to wrestle with something. 0:39:53.710 --> 0:39:57.270 And C.S. Lewis, I'll bookend it with this. C.S. Lewis, um, 0:39:57.270 --> 0:40:01.060 says two statements that I think are brilliant. Um, himself. What? 0:40:01.060 --> 0:40:02.780 He calls himself the most reluctant convert. 0:40:02.820 --> 0:40:03.220 Yes. 0:40:03.260 --> 0:40:05.100 He says. He said. He said if you look for truth, 0:40:05.100 --> 0:40:07.259 you'll find comfort. And then he says, but if you 0:40:07.260 --> 0:40:10.379 look for comfort, you will find only soft soap to 0:40:10.380 --> 0:40:14.660 begin with. But in the end, despair. Um. And I 0:40:14.660 --> 0:40:18.300 realized if I see comfort, I'll be okay for a while. 0:40:18.739 --> 0:40:23.380 But ultimately, I'll be in this despair because my intellectual integrity, 0:40:23.420 --> 0:40:27.339 I think the spiritual tug will, uh, as well, will 0:40:27.340 --> 0:40:30.660 ultimately be at odds with, uh, dare I say, my 0:40:30.660 --> 0:40:34.500 own cowardice over the consequences of what would happen to me. 0:40:34.500 --> 0:40:36.739 And I knew that would be a despair. And when 0:40:36.739 --> 0:40:39.779 I finally gave my life to Christ, after seeing that 0:40:39.780 --> 0:40:41.779 all the things I was hoping was true in my 0:40:41.780 --> 0:40:46.420 former worldview were actually true in the gospel message, um, 0:40:46.420 --> 0:40:49.180 I realized something else, C.S. Lewis said. And it was 0:40:49.180 --> 0:40:51.500 to me, it was just such a a beautiful thing 0:40:51.500 --> 0:40:55.060 for him to say is, he said that the great 0:40:55.060 --> 0:40:58.100 thing to remember is that though our feelings come and go. 0:40:58.140 --> 0:41:00.460 His love for us does not. It is not wearied 0:41:00.460 --> 0:41:03.339 by our sins or our indifference, and therefore it is 0:41:03.340 --> 0:41:06.540 quite relentless in its pursuit that its sorry, its determination 0:41:06.540 --> 0:41:09.100 that we shall be cured of those sins at whatever 0:41:09.100 --> 0:41:13.580 cost to us, at whatever cost to him. So I 0:41:13.580 --> 0:41:19.300 realized something that other worldviews, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know, 0:41:19.340 --> 0:41:22.220 any other ism and schism you can think of, they 0:41:22.219 --> 0:41:24.900 ask you to make a change, but at your expense 0:41:24.900 --> 0:41:29.419 and your expense alone. The Christian message is that God 0:41:29.820 --> 0:41:35.780 causes the change at his expense, and therefore, what cost 0:41:35.780 --> 0:41:37.980 could I possibly pay that would that would, that would 0:41:38.020 --> 0:41:42.299 even compare to the cost he paid for me? How 0:41:42.300 --> 0:41:44.299 could I possibly say no to him? How could I 0:41:44.300 --> 0:41:47.140 possibly look at that cross and say, not good enough? 0:41:47.140 --> 0:41:50.299 I might get yelled at. I mean, how could I 0:41:50.300 --> 0:41:53.860 possibly do that? And so that's that's a big part 0:41:53.860 --> 0:41:55.140 of it, is that at some point I had to 0:41:55.290 --> 0:41:57.410 be willing to give that up. And that's why Jesus 0:41:57.410 --> 0:42:00.370 says so beautifully in several places and in various ways, 0:42:00.770 --> 0:42:02.610 that you have to die to yourself. He who loses 0:42:02.610 --> 0:42:05.609 his life for my sake will find it. Um, I 0:42:05.650 --> 0:42:08.529 can tell you it's been 25 years, uh, since I 0:42:08.530 --> 0:42:11.609 became a believer. In fact, in June, 25 years since 0:42:11.610 --> 0:42:14.850 I became a believer. And in that quarter century when 0:42:14.850 --> 0:42:17.730 it's been the hardest to follow him, it's been the 0:42:17.730 --> 0:42:18.650 most worth it. 0:42:20.930 --> 0:42:24.730 Have you ever. And it's so contradictory to the statement 0:42:24.730 --> 0:42:28.530 that you just made because there is this tension, because 0:42:28.570 --> 0:42:31.210 not just your nuclear but your extended family as well. 0:42:31.570 --> 0:42:34.450 Did you ever think, oh, if only I hadn't, or 0:42:34.570 --> 0:42:37.810 for the eloquent reasons that you just articulated, how can 0:42:37.810 --> 0:42:39.970 you not supersedes the temporal? 0:42:40.810 --> 0:42:42.890 You know, I would be lying if I didn't say 0:42:42.890 --> 0:42:45.610 that there was some fleshly thing, or maybe even Satan 0:42:45.610 --> 0:42:48.290 saying something in my ear that says, just say this 0:42:48.290 --> 0:42:51.129 and it'll be fine. You know, it'll go easy for you. Um, 0:42:51.130 --> 0:42:54.040 I remember distinctly in the middle of the throes of 0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:57.799 some pretty intense emotional upheaval and relational upheaval, which, by 0:42:57.800 --> 0:43:02.040 the way, has all been resolved. I mean, we're great now. Um, but, uh, 0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:05.320 in the beginning, I remember thinking the word Muslim means 0:43:05.320 --> 0:43:08.680 one who submits to God to his will. Couldn't you 0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:10.799 just say you are? And what you really mean is 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:12.879 you submit to God's will in Christ and just leave 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:16.120 it at that. And the answer was an emphatic no, 0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:20.400 because that would be lying. And how could I forsake 0:43:20.760 --> 0:43:24.400 truth when the truth forsook everything for me and I 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:25.200 couldn't do it? 0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:26.840 Wow. Wow. 0:43:27.640 --> 0:43:30.399 And there's so much more in this podcast, Abdul. I 0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:32.560 feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. This is 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:36.520 why I love our conversations that you can address the 0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:39.359 the mind issues, but it's the heart issues ultimately that 0:43:39.360 --> 0:43:42.600 take over and I hope what it's created. Number one 0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:44.279 actually a couple of things. Number one, I hope it 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:46.399 puts I've used the phrase before. Let me harken back 0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:49.279 to Jeremiah again. I hope these conversations put fire in 0:43:49.280 --> 0:43:53.589 your bones. Are you willfully Volitionally asking the Lord for 0:43:53.590 --> 0:43:56.470 opportunities to share the good news. And if not, why not? 0:43:56.989 --> 0:43:59.589 How can you keep this good news to yourself? How 0:43:59.590 --> 0:44:02.990 could you not? How can they know unless somebody tells them? 0:44:03.030 --> 0:44:06.390 X right. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. So I'm hoping 0:44:06.390 --> 0:44:08.469 that there's now more fire in your bones to go 0:44:08.469 --> 0:44:10.750 out and tell that you won't be reticent or embarrassed, 0:44:10.750 --> 0:44:13.470 but that you'll roll up your sleeves. You'll be prepared. 0:44:13.469 --> 0:44:15.590 You'll ask for a real anointing from the Holy Spirit 0:44:15.590 --> 0:44:18.270 before you talk to people. But then also, I hope 0:44:18.270 --> 0:44:20.390 this conversation broke your heart a little bit. He's not 0:44:20.390 --> 0:44:23.590 willing that any should perish, and our saying yes might 0:44:23.590 --> 0:44:26.509 not be the sort of angst another person has to 0:44:26.550 --> 0:44:29.710 go through before they say yes. For things like the 0:44:29.710 --> 0:44:33.190 generational connectedness, the definition of who you are within your family. 0:44:33.310 --> 0:44:36.710 There's a kind of Holy Spirit sensitivity that that requires. 0:44:36.710 --> 0:44:38.870 And one of the outcomes of these kinds of conversations, 0:44:38.870 --> 0:44:41.870 I hope, instills just that. Gosh, what a joy to 0:44:41.910 --> 0:44:43.989 call you my friend Abdul. What a great hour. Thank 0:44:43.989 --> 0:44:45.509 you friends. We'll see you next time on In the 0:44:45.510 --> 0:44:47.029 market with Janet Parshall. 0:44:50.020 --> 0:44:56.819 Retractable claws up to 1.5in long, capable of jumping 36ft. 0:44:57.860 --> 0:45:02.940 Aurora that can be heard five miles away. The lion 0:45:02.940 --> 0:45:07.380 King of the beasts. Picture yourself surrounded by several. Like Daniel, 0:45:07.860 --> 0:45:11.300 he determined to pray, though he knew he would pay. 0:45:11.820 --> 0:45:14.340 Are we willing to face the lions of our culture? 0:45:14.860 --> 0:45:18.180 Be a Daniel. A challenge for Moody Radio. 0:45:20.540 --> 0:45:22.140 How long have you been a part of the Moody 0:45:22.140 --> 0:45:22.980 Radio family? 0:45:23.060 --> 0:45:27.819 Well, I've been listening to Moody since 1993. And, I mean, 0:45:27.820 --> 0:45:29.700 I get up with booty, I go to bed with Moody, 0:45:29.700 --> 0:45:31.620 and it just. It's been a blessing in my life 0:45:31.660 --> 0:45:35.380 for all these years. The teaching and the worship. And 0:45:35.420 --> 0:45:38.660 Moody is a station that is really rooted in the 0:45:38.660 --> 0:45:41.820 Word of God. In the series about who is God. 0:45:42.180 --> 0:45:46.380 Serious about God? That's us. And we're seriously grateful for 0:45:46.380 --> 0:45:47.660 listeners like you.