1 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,639 S1: Doug thinks we have a problem in the church with 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,479 S1: how we treat singles. In fact, he thinks if Jesus 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,000 S1: showed up at your church on Sunday, chances are there'd 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,040 S1: be somebody, maybe a few people, who would look at 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,400 S1: him and say, oh, poor single fella. And they try 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,560 S1: to introduce him to some of the eligible young women 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,640 S1: in the church. Why do we think singleness is a 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,560 S1: problem that needs to be fixed? And how do we 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,760 S1: fix that kind of thinking? Doctor Doug Hankins has been 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,000 S1: doing a lot of thinking about this. And you'll hear 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,520 S1: from him today on Chris Fabry Live the program from 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,800 S1: the heart to the heart for the heart. And this 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,200 S1: conversation is for anyone in the church, married or single. 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,040 S1: Let's get started with the conversation first by thanking our 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,960 S1: friends behind the glass. Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,680 S1: Tricia as our producer. Josh will be answering your calls today, 17 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,800 S1: and the others who are behind the scenes are too 18 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,160 S1: numerous to name. These are our back fence friends and 19 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,860 S1: partners who support us. And look at what Madeline did today. 20 00:01:02,900 --> 00:01:05,580 S1: She became a back fence partner by giving a gift 21 00:01:05,580 --> 00:01:08,700 S1: each month. Thank you Madeleine. She's going to receive a 22 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:11,500 S1: signed copy of The Promise of Jesse Woods, a novel 23 00:01:11,500 --> 00:01:14,300 S1: that I wrote a few years ago, and she'll receive 24 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:17,540 S1: my back fence post this Thursday, a video we send 25 00:01:17,540 --> 00:01:20,819 S1: out for your encouragement. Oh, and there's more. Become a 26 00:01:20,819 --> 00:01:25,940 S1: partner today@kris.org. Partners have access to our gift that we 27 00:01:25,980 --> 00:01:29,580 S1: send out each month as well. Something I choose this month. 28 00:01:29,580 --> 00:01:33,740 S1: It's powerful self-talk from the Psalms. It's an encouragement to 29 00:01:33,780 --> 00:01:36,580 S1: change what you're saying to yourself each day. That's negative 30 00:01:36,580 --> 00:01:39,700 S1: into something that aligns with what God says about you, 31 00:01:39,740 --> 00:01:42,780 S1: what he thinks about you. Call or click through today. 32 00:01:42,780 --> 00:01:45,139 S1: Give a gift of any size, a one time gift 33 00:01:45,140 --> 00:01:52,140 S1: or monthly. Become a partner at Chris Fabry live.org. Chris 34 00:01:52,180 --> 00:01:56,420 S1: fabry.org or call 86695. Fabry. Would love to hear from 35 00:01:56,420 --> 00:02:02,990 S1: you and thank you for your support at the back fence. (866) 953-2279. 36 00:02:03,470 --> 00:02:06,150 S1: I have a hankering to talk with Doug Hankins today. 37 00:02:06,190 --> 00:02:10,150 S1: Doctor Doug Hankins is a pastor, professor, and friend to 38 00:02:10,150 --> 00:02:13,630 S1: countless single adults he's worked alongside for more than 20 years. 39 00:02:13,990 --> 00:02:19,230 S1: He served as the senior pastor, serves currently present tense 40 00:02:19,230 --> 00:02:22,549 S1: senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Winter Park, Florida, 41 00:02:22,550 --> 00:02:26,750 S1: near Orlando. Teaches as an associate professor at the Baptist 42 00:02:26,750 --> 00:02:32,510 S1: University of Florida. He has written what I think is it's. 43 00:02:32,510 --> 00:02:36,310 S1: It's out of this world. It's. So I don't compare 44 00:02:36,310 --> 00:02:38,750 S1: it to others, but it's it's the kind of book 45 00:02:38,750 --> 00:02:42,510 S1: that I've been looking for that I haven't seen. Still single, 46 00:02:42,510 --> 00:02:47,590 S1: still called A guide for Christian Singles and those who 47 00:02:47,630 --> 00:02:50,470 S1: love them. Doug, how you doing today? 48 00:02:51,389 --> 00:02:53,430 S2: I'm doing wonderful. Thanks for having me on. 49 00:02:53,990 --> 00:02:57,970 S1: The only thing more awkward than a single person trying 50 00:02:57,970 --> 00:03:01,450 S1: to grab a table for one at a restaurant. Is 51 00:03:01,450 --> 00:03:04,250 S1: a single person trying to find a seat in a church? 52 00:03:04,290 --> 00:03:06,490 S1: You wrote that? Why did you write it? 53 00:03:08,169 --> 00:03:11,490 S2: Well, because it's true. Or at least it's true of 54 00:03:11,490 --> 00:03:16,730 S2: my experience of having countless conversations with my single friends. Um, 55 00:03:17,010 --> 00:03:20,410 S2: I used to work in food services many moons ago. 56 00:03:20,410 --> 00:03:23,050 S2: And you would have a patron come in for a 57 00:03:23,050 --> 00:03:25,490 S2: table for one. And the waitstaff wouldn't always know what 58 00:03:25,490 --> 00:03:27,090 S2: to do. They don't know how to set the place 59 00:03:27,090 --> 00:03:29,320 S2: for one, because you have to your preset for 2 60 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,370 S2: or 4, and you got to take everything away. And 61 00:03:31,370 --> 00:03:35,010 S2: there's kind of a frenetic thing that happens in a 62 00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:37,170 S2: kitchen staff when one person shows up, or if it's 63 00:03:37,210 --> 00:03:41,170 S2: a bunch of singles at places. Um, and the same 64 00:03:41,170 --> 00:03:44,770 S2: kind of energy is in the, the lobby of the 65 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:48,050 S2: church or the narthex or however your church works when 66 00:03:48,050 --> 00:03:51,050 S2: a single person shows up because you don't know where 67 00:03:51,050 --> 00:03:54,090 S2: to seat them. Oh, I guess just sit wherever. I mean, there's, 68 00:03:54,650 --> 00:03:57,780 S2: it's like our entire system of church sometimes breaks down 69 00:03:57,780 --> 00:03:59,580 S2: when a single person shows up. And I think it's 70 00:03:59,580 --> 00:04:05,380 S2: just a really, um, disappointing first impression and posture towards 71 00:04:05,380 --> 00:04:07,820 S2: our single friends. And it happens over and over again 72 00:04:07,820 --> 00:04:10,220 S2: when the first time a single person shows up to church, 73 00:04:10,220 --> 00:04:12,260 S2: if they like the church the first time they visit 74 00:04:12,260 --> 00:04:15,500 S2: that Sunday school class or that small group, the first 75 00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:17,339 S2: time they schedule an appointment to meet with one of 76 00:04:17,339 --> 00:04:20,380 S2: the ministerial staff. You know, it's it just seems to 77 00:04:20,380 --> 00:04:22,580 S2: be out of the norm for the way that we've 78 00:04:22,580 --> 00:04:26,340 S2: come to understand church broadly in America, which is sort 79 00:04:26,380 --> 00:04:28,099 S2: of odd for me for all the reasons you mentioned, 80 00:04:28,100 --> 00:04:31,820 S2: Jesus was single. So how did we get from Jesus, 81 00:04:31,820 --> 00:04:33,979 S2: who we all ask into our heart to this point 82 00:04:33,980 --> 00:04:36,820 S2: in American life, where singles are sort of an anomaly 83 00:04:36,820 --> 00:04:39,940 S2: in church, and the book is the outflowing of trying 84 00:04:39,940 --> 00:04:41,340 S2: to me trying to answer that question. 85 00:04:41,779 --> 00:04:44,820 S1: Yeah. And you're you're bridging the gap between those in 86 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:48,779 S1: the church who need to, to get better at this. 87 00:04:48,779 --> 00:04:51,820 S1: And then those who are single, who many of them 88 00:04:51,860 --> 00:04:55,039 S1: have just been so hurt or feel left out. It's like, 89 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,440 S1: I'm tired of trying and you want to speak to 90 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:58,640 S1: them as well, right? 91 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,360 S2: I think so the maybe the prototypical person I think 92 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,520 S2: about is the 30 year old single female who has 93 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,400 S2: lived morally and done the right things and served well, 94 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,640 S2: and just her, her boyfriend, her husband hasn't come along. 95 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,320 S2: But I would say the second thing that I think 96 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,080 S2: about is the recently divorced woman, the recently divorced man 97 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,560 S2: who they they were part of a great church, but 98 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,719 S2: maybe the spouse got the church in the divorce. And 99 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,360 S2: just that statement right there hovers in the air for 100 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,080 S2: me that a church would be such that if there's 101 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,680 S2: a divorce that takes place, only one of the people 102 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,880 S2: in the family could stick around. And then if the 103 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,000 S2: new if the person who who lost the church in 104 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,760 S2: the divorce has to go find a new church, but 105 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,599 S2: still live in the same town, and just the amount 106 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,640 S2: of shame that they battle on a daily basis, and 107 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,320 S2: they show up to church and people are like, oh, 108 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,500 S2: you're just one person. just that. I mean, that seems 109 00:05:55,500 --> 00:05:58,060 S2: to be the opposite of the way that Jesus called 110 00:05:58,060 --> 00:06:01,260 S2: people into his life. And so I just I want 111 00:06:01,300 --> 00:06:03,180 S2: to try to help the church, which I love, do 112 00:06:03,180 --> 00:06:06,860 S2: better at reaching all people. And I think in many ways, 113 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:10,100 S2: the way that churches reach or the disposition they take 114 00:06:10,140 --> 00:06:13,500 S2: towards single people, often reflects the disposition they take to 115 00:06:13,540 --> 00:06:16,460 S2: everybody else, whether intentionally or unintentionally. And I'd like to 116 00:06:16,500 --> 00:06:18,620 S2: help them get more intentional in this way. 117 00:06:19,339 --> 00:06:24,900 S1: Is, is that a product in the US of our 118 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:27,980 S1: church growth model? I mean, if you look and I've 119 00:06:27,980 --> 00:06:29,900 S1: heard all my life, we need to get back to 120 00:06:29,940 --> 00:06:32,260 S1: the early church, the first century church. That's what we 121 00:06:32,260 --> 00:06:34,820 S1: need to do. It's like, well, if I think about that, 122 00:06:35,140 --> 00:06:38,700 S1: singles were were it was a different thing with them 123 00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:41,380 S1: coming into the to the house church there in Jerusalem 124 00:06:41,380 --> 00:06:45,380 S1: or wherever they were. And it's not that way today. 125 00:06:45,460 --> 00:06:47,700 S1: So is unpack that for me. 126 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:51,339 S2: Oh, man, where do I begin? This is where I 127 00:06:51,339 --> 00:06:53,710 S2: put on my professor hat a little bit. Let's just 128 00:06:53,710 --> 00:06:56,909 S2: take what I would imagine all of your listeners already know. 129 00:06:57,390 --> 00:06:59,750 S2: You look at the people who traveled with Jesus in 130 00:06:59,750 --> 00:07:04,510 S2: his ministry. You've got at least Mary Magdalene, who's probably 131 00:07:04,510 --> 00:07:08,470 S2: a single lady. Jesus says at one point, hey, if 132 00:07:08,470 --> 00:07:10,790 S2: you're not willing to give up family and follow me 133 00:07:10,830 --> 00:07:13,190 S2: like you, you can't be my disciple. So there's sort 134 00:07:13,190 --> 00:07:17,830 S2: of at least an understanding that doing ministry is going 135 00:07:17,830 --> 00:07:20,750 S2: to involve some long stretches apart from family, and Jesus 136 00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:23,910 S2: has got to matter the most. And so, um, that's 137 00:07:23,910 --> 00:07:28,630 S2: a very different perspective than what I think sometimes we 138 00:07:28,630 --> 00:07:32,750 S2: teach today, which is marriage is a milestone of true discipleship. 139 00:07:32,750 --> 00:07:35,070 S2: And you're really not going to follow Jesus unless you're 140 00:07:35,070 --> 00:07:37,430 S2: married and your kids come to church and you wear 141 00:07:37,470 --> 00:07:40,230 S2: nice clothes on Sunday and you give and you serve. 142 00:07:40,630 --> 00:07:43,030 S2: And again, I think there's a conversation space in the 143 00:07:43,030 --> 00:07:45,910 S2: middle of all of that tension, but it's it's a 144 00:07:45,910 --> 00:07:48,190 S2: far cry from the early church. I would also just 145 00:07:48,190 --> 00:07:51,650 S2: point out that the apostle Paul, who is writing to 146 00:07:51,690 --> 00:07:56,330 S2: local churches in the first century, spends a great amount 147 00:07:56,330 --> 00:07:59,250 S2: of time talking about single people. In first Corinthians seven, 148 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:01,370 S2: he talks about single people. And Paul even says, I 149 00:08:01,370 --> 00:08:05,530 S2: wish everybody was single as I am. So you think 150 00:08:05,530 --> 00:08:08,450 S2: about his life. In acts chapter 16, he meets Lydia, 151 00:08:08,450 --> 00:08:12,250 S2: who's presumably single, and she's, you know, a patron of 152 00:08:12,250 --> 00:08:16,010 S2: the early church. So I, I think the, you know, 153 00:08:16,050 --> 00:08:19,450 S2: the lowest common denominator for the early church was not married, 154 00:08:19,450 --> 00:08:23,530 S2: single or even marital status. The lowest common denominator was male, female. 155 00:08:24,130 --> 00:08:26,929 S2: And that's where you started to see some distinctions made. 156 00:08:26,930 --> 00:08:30,530 S2: And even then Paul says, in Christ there's neither slave 157 00:08:30,530 --> 00:08:33,210 S2: nor free, and no Jew or Greek or male or female. 158 00:08:33,650 --> 00:08:38,570 S2: So that's a far cry from a vision standpoint. That's 159 00:08:38,570 --> 00:08:40,449 S2: a far cry from where we are today. And I 160 00:08:40,450 --> 00:08:43,290 S2: think in part to you to what you brought up. 161 00:08:43,929 --> 00:08:46,770 S2: We had this really amazing thing that happened after World 162 00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:50,630 S2: War Two where churches really took off in America and 163 00:08:50,630 --> 00:08:53,189 S2: in the 60s and 70s as the church growth movement 164 00:08:53,190 --> 00:08:57,790 S2: sort of caught the energy from that post-war era and 165 00:08:57,790 --> 00:09:01,430 S2: slingshotted our nation and our churches into the 80s. They 166 00:09:01,429 --> 00:09:03,910 S2: did so on the backs of this idea that the 167 00:09:03,910 --> 00:09:07,790 S2: way you build churches as you go to suburban or 168 00:09:07,790 --> 00:09:10,429 S2: exurban areas where a lot of homes are going up 169 00:09:10,429 --> 00:09:11,990 S2: and you put a church in the middle of that, 170 00:09:11,990 --> 00:09:15,310 S2: and you go after families. And it made a lot 171 00:09:15,350 --> 00:09:19,590 S2: of sense because in the 1960s, you know, only about 172 00:09:19,590 --> 00:09:22,790 S2: one out of three people that you would meet were single. 173 00:09:22,790 --> 00:09:25,270 S2: Everybody else was married. So it seemed like everybody was married. 174 00:09:25,270 --> 00:09:27,550 S2: That was a tried and true strategy, and it really 175 00:09:27,550 --> 00:09:30,630 S2: served the church well. And so everyone who sort of 176 00:09:30,670 --> 00:09:35,790 S2: went through that, that season kind of had the same perspective. Hey, 177 00:09:35,830 --> 00:09:37,350 S2: most of our people are going to be married. Let's 178 00:09:37,350 --> 00:09:39,350 S2: go after them. That's a, that's a great way to 179 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:42,750 S2: do things. The problem we face today, especially on the 180 00:09:42,750 --> 00:09:45,470 S2: other side of Covid, is half of the United States 181 00:09:45,470 --> 00:09:48,000 S2: is single for the first time. And I don't know. 182 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,480 S2: As long as we've been counting data, that's a different 183 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,920 S2: mission field, and that's a different proposition for church growth. 184 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,760 S2: And if we're really going to reach everybody in America, 185 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,520 S2: we can't just go after only half the population. We 186 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,960 S2: have to go after the whole population, which includes a 187 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,880 S2: lot of single people. Yes. 188 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,440 S1: And you have so many, you know, great statistical data, 189 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,040 S1: but so much heart that what you're going for here 190 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,360 S1: with the loneliness problem that many singles go through, what 191 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,119 S1: you're going for is community over matrimony, because marriage doesn't 192 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,000 S1: solve all the problems that you have. Um, but community 193 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,320 S1: can come alongside you. So let me call time out. 194 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,640 S1: If you go to Chris Fabry live.org and I hope 195 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,480 S1: you will click through today's information, you'll see Doctor Doug 196 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:40,560 S1: Hankins book, still single, still called. It's our featured resource 197 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,080 S1: right there. But I would love to hear from single 198 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,820 S1: and not single people today. and your observations about church. 199 00:10:48,820 --> 00:10:51,260 S1: And I don't want to just make it all negative. Yeah, 200 00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:53,060 S1: the church is bad. And here's the bad thing that 201 00:10:53,059 --> 00:10:55,820 S1: happened to me. But I'd like to hear something that 202 00:10:55,820 --> 00:11:00,940 S1: kept you from church or from community, from integration in 203 00:11:00,940 --> 00:11:04,460 S1: the church. What was the, the, the thing that kept you, 204 00:11:04,460 --> 00:11:08,140 S1: the hurdle you couldn't get over and then tell me 205 00:11:08,140 --> 00:11:12,220 S1: how you were welcomed at some church. Is there a 206 00:11:12,220 --> 00:11:15,140 S1: church that did it well with you that you were 207 00:11:15,140 --> 00:11:17,580 S1: able to get over that hurdle? Love to hear your 208 00:11:17,580 --> 00:11:19,940 S1: story today, and I want you to talk with Doug. 209 00:11:19,980 --> 00:11:26,980 S1: If you have a question or a comment today, (877) 548-3675 210 00:11:27,020 --> 00:11:36,100 S1: is our number (877) 548-3675 still single, still calls our featured 211 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:49,599 S1: resource at Chris fabry live.org. We're talking with pastor Professor 212 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,000 S1: Doug Hankins today at the Radio Backyard Fence. He's written 213 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,679 S1: a book called Still Single, still called A guide for 214 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,000 S1: Christian Singles and Those Who Love Them. And our number 215 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:05,440 S1: is (877) 548-3675. Would love to hear your question or comment 216 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:10,920 S1: today at the back fence. Um, okay. So you can't 217 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,280 S1: write this. You can't talk about this, Doug, because you're 218 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,240 S1: not single. You've been married for a while. Come on. What? 219 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,280 S1: Who do you think you are talking about? Singles? 220 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,280 S2: That's a great question. Uh, and the answer helps clarify 221 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,079 S2: at least my my heart for the book. I'm the 222 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,840 S2: guy that a lot of people talk to, married and 223 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,679 S2: single folk, and I have a ton of single folk 224 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,360 S2: in my life. Uh, folks, I should say that more 225 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:42,160 S2: clearly for the Midwestern audience here. Um, yeah, I have 226 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,890 S2: a lot of single people in my life, and they 227 00:12:45,050 --> 00:12:46,890 S2: trust me as a pastor and as a friend to 228 00:12:46,929 --> 00:12:49,890 S2: help them process. And what I try to tell my 229 00:12:49,890 --> 00:12:53,969 S2: single friends is that they're going to have married friends 230 00:12:54,170 --> 00:12:57,209 S2: because they're Christians, especially my single Christian friends. They're going 231 00:12:57,210 --> 00:12:58,730 S2: to have married friends that come to them and ask 232 00:12:58,730 --> 00:13:01,650 S2: them for advice. And they can't not give advice because 233 00:13:01,650 --> 00:13:04,689 S2: they're single, right? They can give advice because they're Christians. 234 00:13:04,690 --> 00:13:07,090 S2: And likewise because I'm married, I can still give advice 235 00:13:07,090 --> 00:13:11,170 S2: on singleness, and mainly because Jesus and Paul talk so 236 00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:13,209 S2: much about this, I can just go to Scripture and 237 00:13:13,210 --> 00:13:16,569 S2: let it speak the loudest. The other way. I would 238 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:21,130 S2: maybe answer your question is that, um, I notice a 239 00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:25,449 S2: lot of single people and a lot of churches talking 240 00:13:25,450 --> 00:13:28,530 S2: past each other, and someone's got to stand in that gap. 241 00:13:28,530 --> 00:13:29,850 S2: And I think there are a lot of us out there. 242 00:13:29,850 --> 00:13:31,570 S2: It's not just me, but some of us need to 243 00:13:31,570 --> 00:13:33,650 S2: stand in that gap and just say, hey, let's broker 244 00:13:33,690 --> 00:13:38,050 S2: a conversation here because I think we're unclear on first principles. 245 00:13:38,050 --> 00:13:41,370 S2: We're unclear on terms, we're unclear on data. Let's make 246 00:13:41,410 --> 00:13:43,710 S2: sure we clarify all that, and then let's see if 247 00:13:43,710 --> 00:13:46,230 S2: we can have a much more productive conversation. And the 248 00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:48,510 S2: book is sort of an outflowing of that. 249 00:13:48,830 --> 00:13:52,069 S1: Yes, and it's done very well. And I agree wholeheartedly. 250 00:13:52,070 --> 00:13:54,750 S1: And good for you for not being defensive, but because 251 00:13:54,750 --> 00:13:57,470 S1: I'd have been so defensive and I was single once, 252 00:13:57,470 --> 00:14:00,550 S1: and no, that's not going to get you anywhere. So, 253 00:14:00,550 --> 00:14:03,590 S1: so you are uniquely qualified because you see the problem 254 00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:05,830 S1: and you're, you're part of the church. And so you 255 00:14:05,830 --> 00:14:08,750 S1: want to help. Andrea writes on Facebook, when you said 256 00:14:08,750 --> 00:14:12,750 S1: single Chris, my assumption was never married, no children. But 257 00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:15,030 S1: some of the comments on our on your Facebook page 258 00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:18,590 S1: are talking about single parents. My answer would be completely 259 00:14:18,590 --> 00:14:22,150 S1: different for the two. So I'm really curious if you 260 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:23,990 S1: could share what you had in mind when you asked 261 00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:27,750 S1: the question. And, and that brings to you then. Okay. 262 00:14:27,790 --> 00:14:31,670 S1: Define single. What does it mean to be single in 263 00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:32,830 S1: today's culture? 264 00:14:34,190 --> 00:14:35,950 S2: Well, let me answer it two ways. I think there's 265 00:14:35,950 --> 00:14:37,750 S2: the biblical way. And then I think there's sort of 266 00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:41,600 S2: the way socially we understand that. And the term has 267 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,040 S2: changed a little bit. And I spend a great deal 268 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,640 S2: of time in the book talking about that. I think 269 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,920 S2: in in the New Testament, a single person was unmarried, celibate. 270 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,720 S2: That's sort of the idea. You're unmarried and you're celibate. 271 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,000 S2: That's it. That's sort of the New Testament speak today. 272 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,400 S2: I think to be single means unpartnered. That's maybe a 273 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,440 S2: way to think about it. So there are people who win. 274 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,160 S2: The decennial census comes by and they ask, who lives 275 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,040 S2: in this house? And they say, it's just me. Well, 276 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,000 S2: they're not telling the whole truth. They live there, they 277 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,600 S2: own the house, but maybe their girlfriend lives there and 278 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,920 S2: their girlfriend has lived there for ten years and they 279 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,800 S2: have kids together. But that's, that's sort of a single person. 280 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,680 S2: And so the term is a little muddy. I think 281 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,800 S2: the best working definition of a single person today is 282 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,360 S2: someone who is unpartnered, regardless of whether they have been 283 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,920 S2: married before or not. So that includes broadly people who've 284 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,700 S2: never been married, people who are single again, divorced, and 285 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:44,180 S2: people who are widowed, and the unique challenges in our 286 00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:47,980 S2: society under that definition of person, that's kind of single 287 00:15:47,980 --> 00:15:51,700 S2: person entering our society, regardless of whether they've been married before, 288 00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:55,060 S2: they're going to face the same realities, which is I 289 00:15:55,060 --> 00:15:57,340 S2: don't have someone to spend holidays with. I don't have 290 00:15:57,340 --> 00:16:00,100 S2: built in belonging. When I go to a church, I'm 291 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:02,940 S2: flying solo. When I build friendships, I have to do 292 00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:05,660 S2: so from a position of being solo. And that's what 293 00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:07,740 S2: I think is common. And I think that's where I 294 00:16:07,740 --> 00:16:11,380 S2: think the book sort of in some ways speaks to everybody. Yeah. 295 00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:14,700 S1: And when I go home, I get fixed up by 296 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:18,780 S1: Aunt Martha and, you know, and all of those types 297 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:21,580 S1: of things. It's interesting because you there are a couple 298 00:16:21,620 --> 00:16:24,180 S1: of words in here that I was just, I'm a 299 00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:28,740 S1: fan of, of words. And you used, um, celibate just 300 00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:33,660 S1: now what celibate means, but also the word abstinent. And 301 00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:37,380 S1: it's like I've always thought of celibacy and abstinence as 302 00:16:37,420 --> 00:16:40,000 S1: kind of the same thing. And you said, no, there's 303 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,400 S1: a there's a difference. Tell us. 304 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,000 S2: It's subtle, but there is a difference. Abstinence is sort 305 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:51,320 S2: of the bargain that Christian leaders made with people my age. 306 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,200 S2: I'm a late gen-xer, early millennial, and I kissed dating 307 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,600 S2: goodbye came out right as I was becoming a Christian 308 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,640 S2: in the late 90s and the. The premise of that 309 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:06,680 S2: bargain was, if you'll just save sexual expression for marriage, 310 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,080 S2: then you're going to be blessed once you get married. 311 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:14,959 S2: And that's abstinence. I'm abstaining from sexuality until this future date. 312 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,040 S2: That's on some calendar somewhere that only God knows. And 313 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,080 S2: then once I get there, I get to finally kind 314 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,960 S2: of experience all this, you know, sexuality that's abstinence. Celibacy 315 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,240 S2: takes a different position. It puts no fixed date on 316 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,040 S2: the calendar or hopes or expectations. It says, I'm going 317 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:37,490 S2: to I'm not going to enter into sexual practices and 318 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:39,850 S2: I'm going to consider that that will happen forever. It 319 00:17:39,850 --> 00:17:42,610 S2: is my way of living as someone who just does 320 00:17:42,609 --> 00:17:46,810 S2: not participate in sexuality, and that's a different mindset because 321 00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:53,490 S2: it sort of communicates contentment and peace with abstaining from sexuality. 322 00:17:53,530 --> 00:17:57,369 S2: Whereas I think abstinence sort of says it's it's abstinence 323 00:17:57,369 --> 00:18:01,330 S2: is the equivalent of saving now to spend later, whereas 324 00:18:01,330 --> 00:18:04,649 S2: celibacy just says, I'm not going to consider money at all. 325 00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:05,970 S2: Does that make sense? 326 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:10,330 S1: Yes, it does. And it also then makes sense of 327 00:18:10,450 --> 00:18:13,170 S1: my expectations. And like you were just saying, and we 328 00:18:13,170 --> 00:18:16,250 S1: had a conversation, two day conversation with Dana Gresh about this. 329 00:18:16,290 --> 00:18:19,770 S1: And because she 25 years and the bride wore white, 330 00:18:19,770 --> 00:18:24,369 S1: she republished that book and, and changed it somewhat, relooking 331 00:18:24,369 --> 00:18:27,090 S1: at especially the people who were walking away from the 332 00:18:27,090 --> 00:18:30,889 S1: church because they had signed up for with the ring and, 333 00:18:30,890 --> 00:18:34,250 S1: and everything. They had signed up for the happily ever after. 334 00:18:34,250 --> 00:18:36,830 S1: And it never came Either they didn't have a relationship 335 00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:39,350 S1: or they had a relationship and they didn't get what 336 00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:42,510 S1: they thought they were promised. So I think what you're 337 00:18:42,510 --> 00:18:48,230 S1: saying is that those are the correct definitions of those words. 338 00:18:48,790 --> 00:18:52,030 S1: They're loaded for us in the church and we need 339 00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:53,630 S1: to be careful with them. Right? 340 00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:58,710 S2: I think that's right. So much of the so many, 341 00:18:58,710 --> 00:19:00,830 S2: I should say, of the people that I receive, I mean, 342 00:19:00,830 --> 00:19:04,830 S2: and you know, this they come with I don't think 343 00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:06,989 S2: the term cultural baggage is the right term, but they 344 00:19:06,990 --> 00:19:10,310 S2: come in with a lot of cultural assumptions. And I, 345 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:13,950 S2: I can't even begin to help them address whatever problem 346 00:19:13,950 --> 00:19:18,510 S2: is befalling them until we first define terms and understand 347 00:19:18,510 --> 00:19:20,709 S2: that maybe we've, you know, part of what's going on 348 00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:24,830 S2: here is you've accepted different ways of thinking that are 349 00:19:24,869 --> 00:19:29,590 S2: maybe not as exclusively rooted in Scripture. And until we 350 00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:33,030 S2: can think with similar terminology and at least defined terms, 351 00:19:33,030 --> 00:19:35,200 S2: we're not going to be able to address any problem 352 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,240 S2: or set any goals together. And of course, I'm sort 353 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,240 S2: of presuming this life of discipleship that the reason people 354 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,080 S2: come to church is not just to receive spiritual resources 355 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,240 S2: and then go home. But most people, when they're looking 356 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,360 S2: for a church, they're looking for a place to belong. 357 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,359 S2: They're looking for community. They're looking to link arms together. 358 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,560 S2: They're looking for a particular mission in the Kingdom of God. 359 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,640 S2: They love a city. They want to reach the city 360 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,880 S2: with the gospel. And so single people who show up 361 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,040 S2: in the churches that I've been a part of, they 362 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,240 S2: come in with all those missional expectations and oftentimes all 363 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:12,399 S2: of those cultural terms that they have, they've never checked. 364 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,720 S2: And in order to just help optimize their approach in life, 365 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,880 S2: you sort of have to do some definitional correction there 366 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,680 S2: from Scripture. It's really helpful. And I think that's true 367 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,960 S2: both single and married. And I think that's true of 368 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,000 S2: everybody who sort of shows up the church and why 369 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,120 S2: theology is so important, why discipleship is so important. 370 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,780 S1: Name respond to one of our people who responded. The 371 00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:38,980 S1: question is, name one struggle of single Christians and singles. 372 00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:41,540 S1: Do you agree with these responses? And we've had dozens 373 00:20:41,540 --> 00:20:46,700 S1: of people respond. Phil says, my pal Phil, the church 374 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:51,500 S1: has viewed me as either defective or deficient. That's what 375 00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:53,300 S1: you've heard for a long time, right? 376 00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:57,860 S2: Uh, I want to say amen to fill his experience 377 00:20:57,859 --> 00:21:01,380 S2: is he's not crazy. His experience is valid, and I 378 00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:06,300 S2: think his experience is shared by any number of single people. 379 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:09,740 S2: And I would just say by a lot of people, uh, 380 00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:12,419 S2: you know, there's this television show, which I won't get 381 00:21:12,420 --> 00:21:14,580 S2: into the morality of, but it was called Ted Lasso. 382 00:21:14,619 --> 00:21:17,220 S2: It came out during the pandemic. And there's a Walt 383 00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:21,140 S2: Whitman quote that Ted Lasso cites. He says, we need 384 00:21:21,140 --> 00:21:24,700 S2: to be curious, not judgmental. And I think a lot 385 00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:26,899 S2: of the church for a lot of different reasons in 386 00:21:26,940 --> 00:21:30,220 S2: engaging in culture war business has sort of gotten into 387 00:21:30,260 --> 00:21:33,800 S2: an overly judgmental posture, but I think curiosity is the 388 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,840 S2: key there. You know, curiosity is such a key virtue 389 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,720 S2: in discipleship and for single people to show up, if 390 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,120 S2: you were curious about them and why they're coming as 391 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,040 S2: human beings and you learn their stories, you're going to 392 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,040 S2: understand why they're single and why being single is not 393 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,960 S2: the most important way to define them, that actually they're 394 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,240 S2: part of a broader story, and that Jesus is redeeming 395 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,560 S2: their lives. And the same is true for our married friends. 396 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,040 S2: Them being married is not their most important feature. There's 397 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,280 S2: God's doing so much more than that. So to fill 398 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,320 S2: and to anybody else, man, I'm so sorry on behalf 399 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,800 S2: of churches who've made you feel that way, but you 400 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,760 S2: matter to God and you have inherent worth. And I'm 401 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,439 S2: really excited. You want to be a part of a church. 402 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,080 S1: And after going through the book, what I'm picking up, Doug, 403 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,840 S1: is that, uh, it used to be, or it seemed 404 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,760 S1: to me, if you've got a problem, if you've got 405 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,760 S1: a struggle, you have a better chance at a bigger 406 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,320 S1: church because there are more people, there are more ministries, 407 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,720 S1: there are more resources. You have a better chance at 408 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,290 S1: a bigger church in order to find, you know, answers 409 00:22:31,290 --> 00:22:34,090 S1: to what you're looking for. But it's almost like as 410 00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:37,169 S1: as you talk right through the book and as I'm 411 00:22:37,210 --> 00:22:40,490 S1: talking with you here today, it's almost like you have 412 00:22:40,490 --> 00:22:43,330 S1: a small church. You've got just as much of a 413 00:22:43,330 --> 00:22:48,370 S1: good chance of bringing single people in and having community. 414 00:22:48,369 --> 00:22:51,570 S1: And maybe there are some advantages to have a smaller church. 415 00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:54,290 S1: Talk about the size Dundrum. 416 00:22:55,050 --> 00:22:57,810 S3: Yeah. You know, Tim Keller wrote. 417 00:22:58,130 --> 00:23:02,130 S2: A white paper for his Redeemer to Redeemer or Redeemer 418 00:23:02,130 --> 00:23:04,650 S2: City to City Network, where he talks about size of 419 00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:09,890 S2: church and how size of church, speaks more about what 420 00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:14,570 S2: you can experience than denomination or anything else. And so two, 421 00:23:15,010 --> 00:23:19,490 S2: two churches that are 2000 plus members, one's Baptist, one's Presbyterian, 422 00:23:19,490 --> 00:23:22,530 S2: they're going to have more in common than a 100 423 00:23:22,530 --> 00:23:25,929 S2: member Church Baptist and a 2000 member Church Baptist. And 424 00:23:25,930 --> 00:23:29,109 S2: that's basically his argument. And the reason he was making 425 00:23:29,109 --> 00:23:32,070 S2: this point is because he says at different size of churches, 426 00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:35,550 S2: you just got to readjust your expectations. At a church 427 00:23:35,550 --> 00:23:38,669 S2: of 100, the pastor can know everybody in the congregation. 428 00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:41,790 S2: The senior pastor who preaches and leads a lot at 429 00:23:41,790 --> 00:23:44,390 S2: a church of 2000. The senior pastor can't know everybody. 430 00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:49,310 S2: It's just impossible. And so I think to your point, 431 00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:51,910 S2: to your question, if I'm a single person and I 432 00:23:51,910 --> 00:23:55,109 S2: show up to a 2000 member church, the benefit to 433 00:23:55,109 --> 00:23:57,389 S2: me of that is I can sort of be anonymous. 434 00:23:57,390 --> 00:23:59,790 S2: I can come and go. I can get really good 435 00:23:59,950 --> 00:24:04,110 S2: spiritual services, good preaching, good music. I probably have access 436 00:24:04,109 --> 00:24:07,310 S2: to a single class or two. I have lots of 437 00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:10,550 S2: opportunities to meet people, but I'm going to have to 438 00:24:10,590 --> 00:24:13,030 S2: work 3 or 4 times as hard to get to 439 00:24:13,070 --> 00:24:15,350 S2: know staff and leaders than I would if I was 440 00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:18,270 S2: at a church of 100 people. Because at 100 people, 441 00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:24,790 S2: I'm trading anonymity for visibility and I'm trading diversity of 442 00:24:24,790 --> 00:24:31,450 S2: population for, Um, again, visibility and um, knowingness and those 443 00:24:31,450 --> 00:24:35,489 S2: kinds of things. And so, you know, again, singleness is 444 00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:39,490 S2: not a one size fits all experience, much like marriage 445 00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:42,649 S2: the same. And so it's, it's individuals, you know, as 446 00:24:42,650 --> 00:24:44,810 S2: an individual, what do you want? What do you want 447 00:24:44,810 --> 00:24:46,409 S2: out of your church experience? Oh, I want to, I 448 00:24:46,410 --> 00:24:48,090 S2: want to really know people well. And I want to 449 00:24:48,090 --> 00:24:50,570 S2: know my pastor man. Then I might suggest a small 450 00:24:50,570 --> 00:24:52,770 S2: church for you because that's sort of the way God's 451 00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:55,210 S2: designed them. And if you say, man, I just, I 452 00:24:55,210 --> 00:24:57,250 S2: need to heal. I need a hospital right now. I 453 00:24:57,250 --> 00:24:59,530 S2: need a place where I can just go and receive healing. Man, 454 00:24:59,530 --> 00:25:02,050 S2: that megachurch might be really great because one of the 455 00:25:02,050 --> 00:25:04,449 S2: things megachurches can do is they can resource you well. 456 00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:06,330 S2: And so it really just depends on where you are 457 00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:09,810 S2: in your life. Um, as to what church might fit 458 00:25:09,810 --> 00:25:12,050 S2: you in that season. And let me just add one 459 00:25:12,050 --> 00:25:14,730 S2: more thing here. I think there's sort of this inherent 460 00:25:14,730 --> 00:25:18,290 S2: value we've received from our older friends in the faith that, 461 00:25:18,330 --> 00:25:21,530 S2: you know, it's more morally accurate to find a church 462 00:25:21,530 --> 00:25:24,170 S2: and stay there forever. And I don't know that that's 463 00:25:24,170 --> 00:25:27,340 S2: necessarily true. I sort of want it to be true, 464 00:25:27,340 --> 00:25:30,940 S2: but I don't know. It's true. I think God's seasons. Right? Right. 465 00:25:30,980 --> 00:25:33,460 S2: Even as a pastor, God has seasons. You gotta follow 466 00:25:33,460 --> 00:25:34,420 S2: God in the season you're in. 467 00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:38,020 S1: That's Doug Hankins. He's written an excellent book. I've got 468 00:25:38,020 --> 00:25:41,060 S1: so many questions for him. The book is titled Still Single, 469 00:25:41,060 --> 00:25:48,619 S1: still called I want to Give You an Opportunity at (877) 548-3675. 470 00:25:48,859 --> 00:25:51,580 S1: We'll take your calls and a whole lot more straight ahead. 471 00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:07,899 S1: We're talking with Doug Hankins, who is a pastor and professor, 472 00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:10,940 S1: senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Winter Park, Florida. 473 00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:14,740 S1: Find out more about him and our featured resource. Still single, 474 00:26:14,980 --> 00:26:19,420 S1: still called a guide for Christian singles and those who 475 00:26:19,420 --> 00:26:23,659 S1: love them. This is one of those books that doesn't 476 00:26:23,660 --> 00:26:26,600 S1: just describe the problem and give a few. You might 477 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,160 S1: want to try this. It's a comprehensive. It helps you 478 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,120 S1: understand where we are so that these two different groups 479 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,440 S1: over here can can get together. And that's what we 480 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,680 S1: really want, right? Uh, I got Ray on the line 481 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,160 S1: in Illinois. Ray. Tell me why you called today. 482 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,879 S4: Yeah. Hey, Chris. Uh, and, uh, is it Doug? 483 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:47,760 S1: Yeah. 484 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:48,440 S2: Yes, sir. 485 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,560 S4: Yeah. Yeah. Um. Okay. So I'm going to try to 486 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,560 S4: chop this. It's a long story. I'm gonna try chopping 487 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,040 S4: a bunch of little pieces here. Um, back in 2016, I, um, 488 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,119 S4: I had to go to the hospital in Morris, Illinois, 489 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,760 S4: and I, they gave me a 5050 chance of dying 490 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:09,240 S4: with cirrhotic alcoholic liver disease. I was bleeding internally. Um, 491 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:15,200 S4: I survived it. Uh, I weighed around £380. Um, a 492 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,840 S4: basically a year went by. I was trying to watch 493 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,719 S4: Christian TV and stuff on TV and stuff, trying to 494 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,020 S4: quit drinking, but I couldn't quite quit drinking, but I 495 00:27:24,020 --> 00:27:26,540 S4: did a pretty good job but couldn't quite quit drinking. 496 00:27:26,780 --> 00:27:30,100 S4: And the next thing I know, I saw this program 497 00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:32,580 S4: and I cried out to the Lord and said, Please God, 498 00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:35,619 S4: if you don't help me quit drinking, I'm going to die. 499 00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:38,899 S4: Because I was on a two day bender. And the 500 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:41,340 S4: next thing I know, every time I had an urge, 501 00:27:42,140 --> 00:27:45,660 S4: the Holy Spirit took away that urge to drink, took away, 502 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:48,540 S4: took away, took away, took away. And so I started 503 00:27:48,540 --> 00:27:51,580 S4: going up to this church. I used to be a photojournalist, 504 00:27:51,580 --> 00:27:55,220 S4: freelancer with the Chicago Sun-Times. So I'm used to driving distances. 505 00:27:55,220 --> 00:27:58,060 S4: There's this church I saw on TV Harvest Bible Chapel 506 00:27:58,060 --> 00:28:02,420 S4: up in Glen Ellen, or excuse me, Elgin and Rolling Meadows. 507 00:28:02,619 --> 00:28:04,380 S4: I started going up there and they had a thing 508 00:28:04,380 --> 00:28:08,780 S4: called Hope Group, and it was amazing. And I learned 509 00:28:08,780 --> 00:28:12,780 S4: so much about the Bible and I just got on fire. 510 00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:18,540 S4: I was on fire and, and just amazing things started happening. 511 00:28:18,540 --> 00:28:22,550 S4: Miracles started happening. And, and so when I came back 512 00:28:22,550 --> 00:28:26,909 S4: to down here south of Chicago, which is basically 55 513 00:28:26,910 --> 00:28:31,949 S4: miles from the Sun-Times, uh, I started going to some 514 00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:35,750 S4: of the churches locally. And, um, when I told them 515 00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:39,510 S4: my story, how God saved my life from this alcoholism, 516 00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:44,990 S4: I've never been married, never had any kids. I started 517 00:28:44,990 --> 00:28:48,150 S4: to see like a pattern, like I was getting shunned. 518 00:28:48,150 --> 00:28:50,830 S4: Like people would say, praise the Lord, praise the Lord. 519 00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:52,550 S4: But they turned their back. And you kind of get 520 00:28:52,550 --> 00:28:55,510 S4: this feeling that they're like, stay away from us, you 521 00:28:55,550 --> 00:28:59,470 S4: icky person, you know? But God was doing some amazing 522 00:28:59,470 --> 00:29:02,310 S4: things in my life. And you and I just, I, 523 00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:05,790 S4: I caught out, I caught part of the, uh, the 524 00:29:05,790 --> 00:29:09,470 S4: transition of you guys talking about, about wanting to do ministry, 525 00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:11,709 S4: you know, uh, when you first become a Christian and 526 00:29:11,710 --> 00:29:13,350 S4: stuff like that and go to church in a single, 527 00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:16,709 S4: I was, I was going, I was going to, uh, 528 00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:19,750 S4: witnessing stuff. Uh, we were going to the Woodfield Mall 529 00:29:19,910 --> 00:29:22,970 S4: with harvest Bible Chapel, and I was using my story 530 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:25,130 S4: to witness people at the mall as we went in 531 00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:28,810 S4: there and stuff. And and all of a sudden things, 532 00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:33,610 S4: I could see that there was something different about me 533 00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:37,610 S4: that that they didn't like. And I really believe it 534 00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:41,970 S4: was because I've never been married, never had any kids, 535 00:29:41,970 --> 00:29:47,330 S4: although half the church basically statistically divorced with, uh, you know, 536 00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:48,330 S4: once or twice at least. 537 00:29:48,770 --> 00:29:50,209 S5: Okay, so you've described. 538 00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:55,770 S1: Right there, Ray, your, your lived experience and it's so 539 00:29:55,810 --> 00:29:58,970 S1: helpful to hear and I want to, I want Doug 540 00:29:58,970 --> 00:30:02,650 S1: to come along here. And just one other question. So 541 00:30:02,650 --> 00:30:06,410 S1: you right now, you're not in a church in your area. 542 00:30:06,450 --> 00:30:09,170 S1: You haven't found one where you feel like you fit in, 543 00:30:09,210 --> 00:30:09,850 S1: can connect. 544 00:30:09,890 --> 00:30:13,490 S4: I go to a local church that's every now and then, 545 00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:17,050 S4: but I don't have any expectations. The people know me. 546 00:30:17,050 --> 00:30:21,020 S4: They're nice to me somewhat, but but I'm not integrated 547 00:30:21,020 --> 00:30:23,620 S4: into it. I was at one time I was going 548 00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:27,020 S4: to Bible studies and stuff like that, but like I said, 549 00:30:27,020 --> 00:30:29,740 S4: Covid came and I just wasn't accepted. 550 00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:30,620 S5: Yeah. 551 00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:32,820 S4: I even went to this church once wearing a, wearing 552 00:30:32,820 --> 00:30:35,980 S4: an N95 mask, uh, during Covid. And one of the 553 00:30:35,980 --> 00:30:38,980 S4: guys goes, what's up with the mask, buddy? I'm trying 554 00:30:38,980 --> 00:30:42,420 S4: to protect my mom. Yes. And so I, you know, 555 00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:43,180 S4: that kind of stuff. 556 00:30:43,180 --> 00:30:45,100 S5: So I get it. All right. Doug, what do you 557 00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:46,100 S5: say to Ray? 558 00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:52,420 S2: Well, number one, Ray, thanks for sharing your story. And, um, man, 559 00:30:52,420 --> 00:30:55,780 S2: I think your again, I find myself saying this to people. 560 00:30:55,780 --> 00:30:58,100 S2: You're not crazy. You're not doing this wrong. You haven't 561 00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:00,100 S2: messed up. I don't I don't think I would start 562 00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:02,980 S2: off with that assumption. I don't know you well, but 563 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:06,260 S2: my sense is you're experiencing what a lot of people experience. 564 00:31:06,260 --> 00:31:12,740 S2: And that is you're sort of blindsided by the context shift. Um, Maurice, 565 00:31:12,740 --> 00:31:16,980 S2: I think you said, Maurice, southwest Chicagoland. Maurice, Illinois is 566 00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:20,480 S2: very different than where Harvest Bible Chapel originally was located 567 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,960 S2: in the Schaumburg area or wherever that is. Um, population 568 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,440 S2: density matters. And I think it matters for people who 569 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,680 S2: want to have the best opportunity to find a church 570 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,920 S2: that sort of fits their style and space. And so 571 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,440 S2: when you get into smaller towns, you know, you're, you 572 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,200 S2: don't have the option of the megachurch that has lots 573 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,320 S2: of resources. You're in the, you're in the towns that 574 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,560 S2: all the churches are 100, maybe 200. And like many communities, 575 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,880 S2: rural areas or exurbs or suburbs are disproportionately full of 576 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,480 S2: married folks or divorced folks and having some kind of family. And, 577 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,840 S2: and that whole experience of life sort of becomes a 578 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,840 S2: de facto milestone for a lot of churches, for membership 579 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,360 S2: and discipleship. It's almost like marriage, even if you've been divorced, 580 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,920 S2: sort of. It's almost like a degree on the wall, like, oh, well, 581 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,060 S2: at least they've done all of this. And so, Um. 582 00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:20,060 S2: That's true. That that's a true experience for a lot 583 00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:22,460 S2: of people. I don't think it's correct. I don't think 584 00:32:22,460 --> 00:32:24,660 S2: Jesus would fit in well there as well as I 585 00:32:24,660 --> 00:32:26,900 S2: guess what I want to say. And so the first 586 00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:29,060 S2: thing I'd want to do is help you see comfort. 587 00:32:29,060 --> 00:32:32,580 S2: Jesus knows what it's like to be ostracized. And if 588 00:32:32,620 --> 00:32:35,180 S2: you felt a little ostracized because of your story and 589 00:32:35,180 --> 00:32:40,020 S2: all that, hey man, you and Jesus are together in this. Um, man, 590 00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:41,980 S2: I wish I knew more about your area. I, I'd 591 00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:43,820 S2: love to be able to direct you to other places, 592 00:32:43,820 --> 00:32:48,140 S2: but perhaps it's time to check out some different churches. Um, 593 00:32:48,740 --> 00:32:51,740 S2: you know, check out the theology. You know, if it 594 00:32:51,780 --> 00:32:53,540 S2: were me, this is I'm saying what I would do. 595 00:32:53,540 --> 00:32:55,460 S2: I would go check out some other churches. I'd, I'd 596 00:32:55,660 --> 00:32:57,420 S2: try to, I'd pray and ask God to give me 597 00:32:57,420 --> 00:32:59,620 S2: the best one possible. And I would also just know 598 00:32:59,620 --> 00:33:02,980 S2: that perhaps I may not find I'm like Bono and U2. 599 00:33:03,020 --> 00:33:05,500 S2: I still haven't found what I'm looking for, and it 600 00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:08,900 S2: may not. It may not happen. And that's okay. And 601 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:11,620 S2: maybe God is sort of in that kind of teaching 602 00:33:11,620 --> 00:33:13,700 S2: you something you may be need to be near mom. 603 00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:15,710 S2: And so for this season, it's just that season. But 604 00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:18,390 S2: maybe in a new season, God opens up a maybe 605 00:33:18,430 --> 00:33:20,630 S2: larger area where you can go and check out a 606 00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:22,790 S2: different church. But all that to say, man, my heart 607 00:33:22,790 --> 00:33:24,870 S2: hurts for you. I think you're doing a great job. 608 00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:27,550 S2: Keep doing ministry. Who knows, maybe you start a Bible 609 00:33:27,550 --> 00:33:30,110 S2: study and maybe some people come to your Bible study, 610 00:33:30,110 --> 00:33:32,790 S2: and maybe God's leading you to like start a ministry there. 611 00:33:32,790 --> 00:33:36,230 S2: You never know. Um, but, um, yeah, my heart hurts 612 00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:38,270 S2: for you and I hope you feel encouraged in that. 613 00:33:38,430 --> 00:33:41,470 S1: When Ray was telling his story. And hang on, Ray, 614 00:33:41,510 --> 00:33:43,150 S1: we want to get your info and send you a 615 00:33:43,150 --> 00:33:46,070 S1: copy of the book. But when Ray was telling his story, 616 00:33:46,110 --> 00:33:49,430 S1: my question was, I wonder if that's true. I wonder 617 00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:54,870 S1: if the people who are responding to him really believe, ooh, icky, 618 00:33:55,030 --> 00:33:57,790 S1: you know, don't like the alcoholism. And this is a 619 00:33:57,790 --> 00:34:01,390 S1: hard story to hear and turn away. Is it that 620 00:34:01,390 --> 00:34:05,270 S1: or is it that they just don't know what to do? 621 00:34:05,310 --> 00:34:08,950 S1: They don't know how to respond. They don't know how to, um, 622 00:34:09,350 --> 00:34:14,290 S1: to envelop, you know, and to, to invite the person 623 00:34:14,290 --> 00:34:17,890 S1: to connect here. Could that be it? Doug. 624 00:34:18,890 --> 00:34:23,050 S2: Yeah, I think that's really wise. Um, it's it's certainly possible. 625 00:34:23,050 --> 00:34:26,530 S2: And it's, it's my suspicion. Again, I don't know anything, 626 00:34:26,530 --> 00:34:28,049 S2: but if I had to bet, I would say it's 627 00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:30,450 S2: probably a little both. And there's probably a layer in 628 00:34:30,450 --> 00:34:35,610 S2: which being single is sort of maybe um not the norm, 629 00:34:35,770 --> 00:34:38,690 S2: but also there's a big layer of, okay, we've got 630 00:34:38,930 --> 00:34:42,370 S2: in his backstory, we've got, uh, you know, recovering from 631 00:34:42,370 --> 00:34:45,890 S2: alcohol by God's grace and, you know, maybe some of 632 00:34:45,890 --> 00:34:48,650 S2: these other things and they don't know how to approach that. 633 00:34:48,650 --> 00:34:52,490 S2: And that sort of speaks to our cultural moment, especially 634 00:34:52,489 --> 00:34:57,489 S2: post Covid, which is church can tend to be a 635 00:34:57,489 --> 00:35:03,170 S2: place where the same gather together as opposed to opposed 636 00:35:03,170 --> 00:35:06,410 S2: to being church, being a place where people who are 637 00:35:06,570 --> 00:35:11,410 S2: members are actively looking to find other people and include them. 638 00:35:11,890 --> 00:35:15,979 S2: And those are different impulses, I think. And I tend 639 00:35:15,980 --> 00:35:18,060 S2: to be much more attracted to the churches that want 640 00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:20,819 S2: to reach people who may not fit the mold. But 641 00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:23,260 S2: I can certainly understand how some churches are places where 642 00:35:23,260 --> 00:35:25,900 S2: the same sort of get together and encourage one another. 643 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:28,500 S2: So it's, you know, it's a tough, tough beat. 644 00:35:28,820 --> 00:35:32,540 S1: Here's what I love about your book and about what 645 00:35:32,540 --> 00:35:35,939 S1: you're saying today. And it comes down to, and maybe 646 00:35:35,940 --> 00:35:38,900 S1: in the last segment, we'll just talk about this, that 647 00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:43,460 S1: you say strategies are the wrong place to begin because 648 00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:46,900 S1: in leadership, and maybe it's just the way that I'm 649 00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:49,580 S1: wired as a, as a man, I, you know, I'm 650 00:35:49,580 --> 00:35:51,940 S1: looking for a problem so that I can figure out 651 00:35:51,940 --> 00:35:56,180 S1: how to fix it, you know, and as single people 652 00:35:56,180 --> 00:36:00,300 S1: aren't a problem, they, they're not the problem. The problem 653 00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:03,939 S1: is our response to them. So you're saying if the 654 00:36:03,940 --> 00:36:07,180 S1: immediate thing to do is to say, okay, what strategies 655 00:36:07,180 --> 00:36:13,280 S1: can we figure out to implement a place where people connect. 656 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,879 S1: It's not the strategy that you begin with. And so 657 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,160 S1: I want to know where do we begin? And we'll 658 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,040 S1: find out straight ahead on Chris Fabry live. Still single, 659 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:28,640 S1: still called is by Doctor Doug Hankins. HANKINS. It's a 660 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,399 S1: guide for Christian singles, and those who love them will 661 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,320 S1: send a copy to Ray and look for it for you. 662 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,160 S1: Or for your church. Or for your single friend. Find 663 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,040 S1: it at Chris Fabry live.org. 664 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,160 S6: Our remaining moments with Doctor. 665 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,920 S1: Doug Hankins, still single, still called, is our featured resource. 666 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,439 S1: And here in this last segment, I want to deal with. Okay, 667 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,239 S1: so what do we do with this information? Not for 668 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,640 S1: those who are single, who are trying like Ray to, 669 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,239 S1: to integrate what is the church do? And you say 670 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,060 S1: in the book strategies are the wrong place to begin. 671 00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:14,260 S1: Unpack that for me. 672 00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:19,140 S2: Yeah. There's a Peter Drucker quote, or it's at least 673 00:37:19,140 --> 00:37:22,540 S2: attributed to him, the famous management consultant. He says that 674 00:37:22,540 --> 00:37:28,340 S2: culture eats strategy for breakfast. And the idea behind this 675 00:37:28,380 --> 00:37:32,819 S2: is that culture is most important. Strategy is sort of 676 00:37:32,860 --> 00:37:38,660 S2: a short term. Tool that you might use to help 677 00:37:38,660 --> 00:37:41,859 S2: the culture move forward. But strategy itself is a poor 678 00:37:41,860 --> 00:37:45,700 S2: substitute for culture itself. And the culture might be defined. 679 00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:47,700 S2: The way I talk about it is culture is the 680 00:37:47,739 --> 00:37:51,259 S2: sum total of both what you promote and what you permit. 681 00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:57,340 S2: And so you can promote inconsistent things and then permit 682 00:37:57,340 --> 00:37:59,180 S2: one over the other. And therefore you sort of have 683 00:37:59,180 --> 00:38:02,980 S2: this culture. Culture is the atmosphere of any organization. It's 684 00:38:02,980 --> 00:38:06,020 S2: the atmosphere, it's the it's the mood maybe is the 685 00:38:06,020 --> 00:38:07,580 S2: best way to think about it. It's a mood of 686 00:38:07,580 --> 00:38:10,589 S2: a particular organization or a group of people. Anytime people 687 00:38:10,590 --> 00:38:12,509 S2: have to come together to work with each other on 688 00:38:12,510 --> 00:38:15,430 S2: a project, a project, you have a culture that's there. 689 00:38:15,630 --> 00:38:18,029 S2: And so the culture is the mood and you can 690 00:38:18,030 --> 00:38:21,629 S2: promote really healthy moods. You can also permit a lot 691 00:38:21,630 --> 00:38:25,830 S2: of dysfunctional moods. And regardless, the mood is what the 692 00:38:25,830 --> 00:38:28,549 S2: mood is. And I've been part of churches and other 693 00:38:28,550 --> 00:38:31,790 S2: organizations that they go to a conference and they see 694 00:38:31,790 --> 00:38:34,350 S2: this strategy that worked in this one place. That's an 695 00:38:34,350 --> 00:38:38,150 S2: entirely different culture. It's an entirely different part of the world. 696 00:38:38,190 --> 00:38:42,190 S2: It has entirely different populations. It has entirely different socioeconomic 697 00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:44,870 S2: tax brackets. And they go, oh, we'll just pluck it 698 00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:46,670 S2: up out of there and we'll come over here and 699 00:38:46,670 --> 00:38:49,910 S2: we'll put that strategy, implement it in our our organization, 700 00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:53,150 S2: and it'll work. And so what Drucker says to that is, nope, 701 00:38:53,469 --> 00:38:57,109 S2: your culture will eat that strategy for breakfast. And it 702 00:38:57,110 --> 00:39:00,790 S2: works both ways. If you have a really amazing strategy 703 00:39:00,790 --> 00:39:03,390 S2: that seems to be working at, let's say, churches across 704 00:39:03,390 --> 00:39:06,390 S2: the world, and you have a dysfunctional church culture, your 705 00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:10,370 S2: dysfunctional church culture will eat that strategy for breakfast. Likewise, 706 00:39:10,370 --> 00:39:13,410 S2: if you have a really healthy church culture and you 707 00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:17,569 S2: put a suboptimal strategy in place, that strategy will survive, 708 00:39:17,610 --> 00:39:20,130 S2: but it will survive and produce fruit based on the 709 00:39:20,130 --> 00:39:23,530 S2: strength of the culture. And I've seen it work both 710 00:39:23,530 --> 00:39:27,649 S2: ways in different places I've been. So I think when 711 00:39:27,650 --> 00:39:31,050 S2: it comes to singles ministry, you're not going to read 712 00:39:31,050 --> 00:39:33,690 S2: even my book or any other book and go, oh, 713 00:39:33,730 --> 00:39:36,290 S2: that's a great strategy. Let's just adopt it. I would, 714 00:39:36,290 --> 00:39:38,490 S2: I would suggest if anybody hired me as a consultant, 715 00:39:38,489 --> 00:39:41,890 S2: I would say, work on your culture first. Uh, and 716 00:39:41,930 --> 00:39:45,410 S2: because people are going to be drawn to your culture 717 00:39:45,969 --> 00:39:49,250 S2: before they're ever drawn or wowed by your strategies, strategies, 718 00:39:49,250 --> 00:39:51,890 S2: really short term culture is the longer term thing there. 719 00:39:51,930 --> 00:39:54,450 S1: What does that mean though? When you say culture, what 720 00:39:54,450 --> 00:39:55,130 S1: does that mean? 721 00:39:56,050 --> 00:39:58,170 S2: Let me give you, I'll give you a real practical example. 722 00:39:58,850 --> 00:40:01,370 S2: And I, I would imagine a lot of your listeners 723 00:40:01,370 --> 00:40:05,690 S2: can relate. You can go get a really awesome worship 724 00:40:05,790 --> 00:40:09,149 S2: band or worship choir or musicians to come into your 725 00:40:09,150 --> 00:40:11,950 S2: church and you can tell them, we generally like these songs, 726 00:40:11,950 --> 00:40:13,710 S2: and they can get those songs ready, and they can 727 00:40:13,710 --> 00:40:17,469 S2: be great musicians, and they can get up on stage 728 00:40:17,469 --> 00:40:20,350 S2: and they can perform. You can go get the best 729 00:40:20,350 --> 00:40:22,109 S2: communicator in the world to come in and speak at 730 00:40:22,110 --> 00:40:24,510 S2: your church, and they can get a whiz bang sermon 731 00:40:24,510 --> 00:40:26,350 S2: together and they can get up and do that. And 732 00:40:26,350 --> 00:40:28,950 S2: you can still have a worship service that falls flat 733 00:40:28,989 --> 00:40:32,950 S2: even with those people. And the reason that happens, and 734 00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:36,430 S2: we've all seen it happen is because there's something deeper 735 00:40:36,430 --> 00:40:39,029 S2: than just what's happening on stage. It's the culture of 736 00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:43,950 S2: the church. Likewise, you can have average Joes get up 737 00:40:43,950 --> 00:40:45,830 S2: there and sing and preach and all that. And if 738 00:40:45,870 --> 00:40:48,029 S2: you have a really healthy culture, it'll be a really 739 00:40:48,030 --> 00:40:51,150 S2: good worship service because the culture sort of does that. 740 00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:53,390 S2: Let me let me talk maybe more deeply about the culture. 741 00:40:53,790 --> 00:40:57,510 S2: A culture is maybe defined under the lenses of mission 742 00:40:57,510 --> 00:41:00,670 S2: and values. There's a mission that our people are on 743 00:41:00,670 --> 00:41:03,830 S2: as we work together, as we pool our resources. And 744 00:41:03,830 --> 00:41:06,840 S2: there are these deeper core values that we all believe, 745 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,720 S2: and we believe them so deeply. Even if they became illegal, 746 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,520 S2: we would still pursue them. And so common ones today 747 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,640 S2: are like relationality. We think relationships matter. And so we're 748 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,640 S2: going to invest in relationships. And what that means is, 749 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,680 S2: on a practical level, if you have a culture of relationships, 750 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,760 S2: then when you hire somebody, you don't just hire them 751 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,759 S2: for their CV or for their resume. You hire them 752 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,239 S2: because there's great chemistry between the two of you and 753 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,440 S2: you feel like they'll, they'll benefit. And your culture of relationships, 754 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,279 S2: you would never hire somebody who comes in and is 755 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,399 S2: an expert at, you know, a doodad over there, but 756 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,000 S2: he doesn't like people. And you go, oh, well, we'll 757 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,120 S2: just permit that over there. Right? I mean, he, he 758 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,000 S2: sort of hates people and likes to be by himself. 759 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,759 S2: But we're a really relational culture. No, you'll you've now 760 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,760 S2: permitted dysfunction in your culture and that'll eat itself alive. 761 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,560 S2: And so that's what I mean is there's got to 762 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:02,200 S2: be these clearly articulated core values that give, um, they, 763 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,859 S2: they give the them mood, or they give the feeling 764 00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:07,379 S2: to the way that you guys gather together. They're sort 765 00:42:07,420 --> 00:42:11,379 S2: of common touch points of the thing that unites your people. 766 00:42:11,380 --> 00:42:13,780 S2: It helps you as a, as a people working together 767 00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:17,100 S2: begin to think together and you're aligned and not just 768 00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:20,620 S2: your ideas, but in your temperaments, in your approaches, in 769 00:42:20,620 --> 00:42:23,860 S2: your moods. You're just kind of together. And when you 770 00:42:23,860 --> 00:42:28,300 S2: have a healthy culture in any group, um, you, you 771 00:42:28,340 --> 00:42:31,339 S2: sort of operate out of a hive mind. And it's 772 00:42:31,340 --> 00:42:34,220 S2: not because you're participating in groupthink. There's just, there's just 773 00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:36,540 S2: a unity. That's what the Bible uses is there's a 774 00:42:36,580 --> 00:42:41,219 S2: unity among your fellowship. And so I think churches who 775 00:42:41,219 --> 00:42:45,020 S2: want to reach singles should, I would say it would 776 00:42:45,020 --> 00:42:48,420 S2: be wise to think about your culture first, think about 777 00:42:48,420 --> 00:42:51,219 S2: who you want to invite people to, or the thing 778 00:42:51,219 --> 00:42:53,140 S2: you want to invite people to be a part of. 779 00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:56,140 S2: And if that thing is really good, then like will 780 00:42:56,140 --> 00:42:58,980 S2: attract like, and it kind of does that regardless of 781 00:42:58,980 --> 00:43:00,380 S2: whatever strategy you employ. 782 00:43:01,180 --> 00:43:04,480 S1: What Jesus did you look at the Gospels time after 783 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,560 S1: time after time is he saw people that everybody else 784 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,600 S1: looked away from. You know, like Ray was saying, I 785 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,680 S1: was like, I felt like I they turned away from 786 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,680 S1: me and Jesus, like Bartimaeus, you know, it's like, no, 787 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,000 S1: he's yelling. They're telling him to be quiet. I'll bring 788 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,560 S1: him over here. Or the woman with the issue of 789 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,840 S1: blood comes up behind him and he's like, who touched me? Uh, 790 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,360 S1: the widow, you know, gives the might. He saw her 791 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,480 S1: and he pointed that out to the to his followers, 792 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,600 S1: to the people around him. Look, look at what happened 793 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,160 S1: right there. Isn't seeing part of the it's not a strategy. 794 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,759 S1: It's part of the culture. Right? 795 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,400 S2: I think, yeah, you're talking about vision and the ability 796 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,040 S2: to think with a kingdom vision. And this is what 797 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,520 S2: Jesus teaches us to pray for. Let your kingdom come, 798 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,480 S2: your will be done. Okay. In what order on earth 799 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,000 S2: as it is in heaven? And this is sort of 800 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,050 S2: Thomas Aquinas argument as well. the Catholic thinker and the 801 00:44:02,050 --> 00:44:06,130 S2: Middle Ages, who, when he makes his argument for love, 802 00:44:06,570 --> 00:44:09,969 S2: winning against hate, he basically says it works in two ways. 803 00:44:10,010 --> 00:44:13,410 S2: Number one, no effect can ever be greater than its 804 00:44:13,410 --> 00:44:18,170 S2: own cause. And he says that all hate is rooted 805 00:44:18,170 --> 00:44:21,250 S2: in a love that's disordered. Meaning you hate something because 806 00:44:21,250 --> 00:44:23,169 S2: you love something else so much or something like that. 807 00:44:23,170 --> 00:44:26,290 S2: And so the conclusion of this syllogism is that love 808 00:44:26,290 --> 00:44:30,490 S2: always trumps hate. And this is effectively what Thomas Aquinas 809 00:44:30,489 --> 00:44:33,650 S2: is saying. If you have a culture of love, no 810 00:44:33,650 --> 00:44:35,489 S2: one's really if they come with you for a while, 811 00:44:35,810 --> 00:44:37,210 S2: no one's going to be able to show up and 812 00:44:37,210 --> 00:44:39,969 S2: not love the people around you. Or to put it 813 00:44:39,969 --> 00:44:42,330 S2: in another way, this is something we say around my church. 814 00:44:43,290 --> 00:44:46,649 S2: You can't love God and then hate the world that 815 00:44:46,650 --> 00:44:50,890 S2: he loves, right? It's impossible. And God loves single people 816 00:44:50,890 --> 00:44:53,370 S2: and he loves married people. And so anybody who God 817 00:44:53,410 --> 00:44:56,810 S2: brings us in our church, regardless of their marital status 818 00:44:56,810 --> 00:44:59,629 S2: or any other, you know, factor if they're a human 819 00:44:59,630 --> 00:45:01,430 S2: being made in the image of God. We already know 820 00:45:01,430 --> 00:45:04,509 S2: God loves them. And so our duty as Christians, as 821 00:45:04,510 --> 00:45:06,750 S2: members of our church, is to find a way to 822 00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:07,350 S2: love them. 823 00:45:07,790 --> 00:45:08,150 S6: Mhm. 824 00:45:08,830 --> 00:45:11,790 S1: And your whole goal is that the church would become 825 00:45:11,790 --> 00:45:15,870 S1: the antidote for the loneliness that so many people, whether 826 00:45:15,870 --> 00:45:19,630 S1: they're married or single, that the church would, would fill 827 00:45:19,630 --> 00:45:23,069 S1: in some of those gaps and help along those lines. 828 00:45:23,270 --> 00:45:25,509 S1: I didn't get to social media and what it does 829 00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:30,670 S1: to singles. If dating apps provide satisfying and stable marriages 830 00:45:30,670 --> 00:45:33,629 S1: community over matrimony. We kind of touched on that. I 831 00:45:33,630 --> 00:45:36,830 S1: wanted to talk about the Gilmore Girls, which is is 832 00:45:36,830 --> 00:45:39,989 S1: in the book as well, or tips for singles who 833 00:45:39,989 --> 00:45:42,630 S1: are visiting churches. One of the things you say is 834 00:45:42,750 --> 00:45:45,910 S1: give it five Sundays in a row, go there five 835 00:45:45,950 --> 00:45:48,870 S1: Sundays in a row. And so. And there are other 836 00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:51,589 S1: things we. Why a lot of younger people are going 837 00:45:51,630 --> 00:45:55,110 S1: to liturgical churches. Why is that? Why do you call 838 00:45:55,110 --> 00:46:00,440 S1: marriage a false idol? Or it can be. And Britt. Britt, 839 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,600 S1: who got her CDL so that she could ride the bus. 840 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,200 S1: We didn't get to talk about this, but you can 841 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,080 S1: read about it in the book. It is still single, 842 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,840 S1: still called Doctor Doug Hankins. It's a guide for Christian 843 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,120 S1: singles and those who love them. Doug, I love your heart. 844 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,680 S1: I love your culture. Justin coming on the program here. 845 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,480 S1: Thanks for your encouragement today. 846 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,200 S2: Yes, sir. Thanks for having me again. 847 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,760 S1: Doug Hankins is the author of Still Single, still called 848 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,280 S1: A guide for Christian Singles and Those Who Loved Them 849 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:36,000 S1: featured resource at the website. Chris fabry.org. Single or married? 850 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,960 S1: If you're in the church, I hope today's conversation has 851 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,160 S1: stimulated you, encouraged you, and come on back. Tomorrow we're 852 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,520 S1: going to hear some music and the voices of point 853 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,200 S1: of Grace here at the back fence, Chris Debris lives 854 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,000 S1: production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.