1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,639 S1: Grief is not a straight line going from point A 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,760 S1: to point B. It is not a path you get 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,320 S1: on and walk until you reach a destination and it's over. 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,880 S1: It's more like a cycle of seasons within the grief 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,800 S1: that gives you the opportunity to embrace it, to learn 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,760 S1: from it, to move through it as you grapple with 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,120 S1: that which you have lost, whatever that is. That's what 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,960 S1: our guest on Chris Fabry Live says today. Do you 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,760 S1: agree with that? Ray joined us last week as I 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,040 S1: presented a topic about selling the farm and the emotional 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,640 S1: struggle I was having with that. But what you didn't 12 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,640 S1: know when he joined me about that topic for just 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,040 S1: a few minutes was that he is going through his 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:58,600 S1: own season of grief, all while teaching students about grief 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,100 S1: at Colorado Christian University. His experience, his wisdom, his counsel 16 00:01:03,100 --> 00:01:06,380 S1: might be just what you need to hear today at 17 00:01:06,380 --> 00:01:09,900 S1: the radio backyard fence doctor Ray Mitch is standing by. 18 00:01:09,940 --> 00:01:11,660 S1: Let me begin with a thank you to our team. 19 00:01:11,660 --> 00:01:14,740 S1: Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. Trisha is our producer. 20 00:01:14,740 --> 00:01:18,100 S1: Josh will be answering your calls. And this is the 21 00:01:18,140 --> 00:01:21,940 S1: last week we are offering Doctor Michael Rudnick's excellent little book, 22 00:01:21,940 --> 00:01:25,059 S1: How Should Christians Think About Israel? It's a quick guide 23 00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:28,380 S1: to God's covenants, biblical prophecy, and the Jewish people. If 24 00:01:28,380 --> 00:01:31,179 S1: you're just hearing about it, oh, go to your phone. 25 00:01:31,220 --> 00:01:33,340 S1: Go to your go to the website. Give a gift 26 00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:36,459 S1: of any size to help us reach our goal before 27 00:01:36,459 --> 00:01:39,260 S1: the end of the month. We'd love to send you 28 00:01:39,260 --> 00:01:41,700 S1: a copy of that. We're only two back fence partners 29 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:44,500 S1: away from our January goal. A partner gives a gift 30 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:47,660 S1: each month. Maybe you could support us that way with 31 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:50,140 S1: a or give a one time gift. Here's the number 32 00:01:50,140 --> 00:01:56,140 S1: 8669 5th February or go to Chris. Org. Scroll down. 33 00:01:56,140 --> 00:01:58,260 S1: You'll see how you can support us and connect with 34 00:01:58,350 --> 00:02:08,910 S1: us right there Chris Fabry. Chris Fabry live or call (866) 953-2279. 35 00:02:10,070 --> 00:02:12,350 S1: I have some history with our guests today going way 36 00:02:12,350 --> 00:02:15,830 S1: back to the 1980s and 1990s when I hosted a 37 00:02:15,830 --> 00:02:21,590 S1: program called Open Line. And something happened in those days 38 00:02:21,590 --> 00:02:25,829 S1: when something would happen that dealt with teenagers. I would 39 00:02:25,830 --> 00:02:28,150 S1: pick up the phone because we didn't have email and 40 00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:32,150 S1: we couldn't. Well, we could, uh, I think we could, uh, 41 00:02:32,150 --> 00:02:35,630 S1: go back and forth with faxes, but I would call 42 00:02:35,630 --> 00:02:38,830 S1: up doctor Ray Mitch because he had a counseling practice. 43 00:02:38,830 --> 00:02:41,390 S1: He dealt with teenagers and their families to kind of 44 00:02:41,430 --> 00:02:46,389 S1: help them through their struggles. Now, many years later, with 45 00:02:46,389 --> 00:02:49,030 S1: the emphasis on many, he is the chair for the 46 00:02:49,030 --> 00:02:53,709 S1: Department of Psychology and professor of psychology at Colorado Christian University. 47 00:02:53,750 --> 00:02:57,130 S1: He's written five books, including the bestseller Grieving the loss 48 00:02:57,130 --> 00:03:00,010 S1: of someone you love. He and his wife, Linda, have 49 00:03:00,010 --> 00:03:07,369 S1: been married since 1978. So that's 48 years this year. Right, Ray? 50 00:03:07,730 --> 00:03:11,730 S2: Sounds long. I think it's longer for my wife than me, but. Yeah. 51 00:03:12,770 --> 00:03:16,810 S1: Uh, four children, three grandchildren. They live in the Denver area. 52 00:03:16,810 --> 00:03:19,730 S1: So you are grieving the loss of the Broncos yesterday? Oh. 53 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:24,930 S2: No, that was brutal. I'm still recovering. It was cold, too. 54 00:03:24,970 --> 00:03:26,330 S2: Did you see the the before. 55 00:03:26,370 --> 00:03:28,290 S1: The first half of the second half of, you know, 56 00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:30,650 S1: all the snow? I mean, that's that's what football was 57 00:03:30,650 --> 00:03:32,530 S1: made for. That's the kind of weather you ought to be. 58 00:03:32,530 --> 00:03:34,970 S2: Had to play, I suppose. Yeah, right. That's Chicago weather 59 00:03:34,970 --> 00:03:35,850 S2: is what that is. 60 00:03:37,890 --> 00:03:41,650 S1: The featured resource today is the seasons of our grief, 61 00:03:42,050 --> 00:03:45,330 S1: embracing the journey. It's our featured resource. Just go to 62 00:03:45,370 --> 00:03:50,290 S1: Chris Live.com and click through today's information. I told you 63 00:03:50,290 --> 00:03:54,170 S1: I was talking with you about, you know, the farm sale. Um, 64 00:03:54,570 --> 00:03:58,430 S1: and and thinking about having you on. And then I 65 00:03:58,590 --> 00:04:03,110 S1: heard what you were going through currently. And because of that, 66 00:04:03,110 --> 00:04:05,030 S1: I said, Ray, there's no way I'm not going to 67 00:04:05,030 --> 00:04:07,430 S1: have you on talking about my farm, say, with what 68 00:04:07,430 --> 00:04:12,190 S1: you're facing right now. And even that, that's where I 69 00:04:12,190 --> 00:04:15,630 S1: want to start. Because if you minimize your own grief 70 00:04:15,630 --> 00:04:18,510 S1: by looking at somebody else in the deep waters that 71 00:04:18,510 --> 00:04:21,950 S1: they're going through, it really doesn't help either one of 72 00:04:21,950 --> 00:04:23,510 S1: you talk about that. 73 00:04:23,950 --> 00:04:27,670 S2: Well, I couldn't agree more. I think the, the challenge of, 74 00:04:27,670 --> 00:04:31,990 S2: of comparison is actually our effort to try to run 75 00:04:31,990 --> 00:04:35,029 S2: from it or hide from it somehow. So I elevate 76 00:04:35,029 --> 00:04:40,589 S2: somebody else's experience and minimize mine. And by doing so, 77 00:04:40,870 --> 00:04:43,229 S2: I end up putting it someplace where I can keep 78 00:04:43,230 --> 00:04:47,030 S2: it nicely contained and it won't leak into everything else. 79 00:04:47,029 --> 00:04:50,630 S2: And so the comparison game, which we do a lot 80 00:04:50,630 --> 00:04:55,090 S2: of actually social media caters to that tendency in us. Um, 81 00:04:55,330 --> 00:05:00,210 S2: that that comparison game is I'm less. My experience is less. 82 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:02,370 S2: I don't know what you know. I don't know what 83 00:05:02,850 --> 00:05:05,370 S2: the other person's is like, but mine's not as bad 84 00:05:05,370 --> 00:05:08,290 S2: as theirs. And, you know, even as you and I 85 00:05:08,290 --> 00:05:11,130 S2: were talking, it's like, oh, what the heck? That that's 86 00:05:11,130 --> 00:05:13,289 S2: nothing compared to what you're going through. And it's like, 87 00:05:13,330 --> 00:05:17,170 S2: that doesn't make anything less really. And I think that's 88 00:05:17,170 --> 00:05:21,330 S2: the challenge here is how do we want to engage the, 89 00:05:21,330 --> 00:05:24,690 S2: the feelings and everything that comes with the, the losses 90 00:05:24,690 --> 00:05:27,370 S2: we have. And if we're going to do that, it 91 00:05:27,370 --> 00:05:30,730 S2: doesn't mean that we make it exclusion, you know, exclusive 92 00:05:30,730 --> 00:05:33,890 S2: of anyone else's. But it does give it the right 93 00:05:33,930 --> 00:05:36,530 S2: standing that it belongs to have. 94 00:05:37,330 --> 00:05:40,730 S1: And I said at the beginning of that program last week, 95 00:05:40,730 --> 00:05:44,370 S1: I said, I feel bad about feeling bad because I compared, 96 00:05:44,410 --> 00:05:46,210 S1: you know, it's like, and there's so many different people 97 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:49,450 S1: who would call or even put on social media who said, 98 00:05:49,490 --> 00:05:52,090 S1: don't feel bad, Chris. You know, just just go through it. 99 00:05:52,089 --> 00:05:56,380 S1: It's like, you're right, you're right. I feeling bad is 100 00:05:56,380 --> 00:06:02,700 S1: just compounding the grief or minimizing it, pushing it away. So, um, 101 00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:07,219 S1: I remember because we lived in Colorado, just south of 102 00:06:07,220 --> 00:06:11,380 S1: Utah toward Colorado Springs. We moved there in 2000, moved 103 00:06:11,380 --> 00:06:15,420 S1: away in 2008. You had something happen right in the 104 00:06:15,420 --> 00:06:18,820 S1: middle of that around 2005. Tell folks about that. 105 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:25,540 S2: I did, I was innocently cleaning the gutters of my house, and, uh, 106 00:06:25,540 --> 00:06:29,380 S2: my second oldest daughter was up there helping me, and 107 00:06:29,380 --> 00:06:31,620 S2: I said, uh, let me go down first. I'll hold 108 00:06:31,620 --> 00:06:34,660 S2: the ladder for you. And I stepped on the ladder, 109 00:06:34,660 --> 00:06:39,020 S2: and 12ft later I met the concrete and it won. 110 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:44,660 S2: And so I had a fractured femur and a head injury. 111 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:49,660 S2: And it, uh, it really had a tremendous ripple effect 112 00:06:49,660 --> 00:06:53,560 S2: for many years to come because it wasn't wasn't just me. 113 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,680 S2: It was this ripple of throwing a little stone into 114 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,120 S2: a pond. And by the time the ripples get out 115 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,839 S2: to the outer ridge, it gets pretty dramatic. And so 116 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,080 S2: all the people that were impacted by that at the 117 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:10,240 S2: time and, um, and I just lived in pain for a, 118 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,320 S2: for a good four or 3 or 4 years, I 119 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,400 S2: finally found a doc that, um, found medical technology to 120 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,040 S2: help me manage it. I still live in pain. I 121 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,119 S2: have a dull headache every day, but, um, my leg 122 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:28,600 S2: is whole and hearty. Um, but my head still is problematic, 123 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,600 S2: and it's. But it's not enough to stop me. And 124 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,480 S2: so I, like I said, I have about a two 125 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,560 S2: out of ten headache. I was living at Eights and Nines, 126 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,920 S2: and so, um, it really was a trial. And, um, 127 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,400 S2: the losses is just a subtext. And I think that's 128 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,679 S2: true for us as humans is there's a subtext of 129 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,820 S2: loss in our lives. So we just don't really want 130 00:07:51,820 --> 00:07:55,820 S2: to elevate because if we do, it's going to overtake 131 00:07:55,860 --> 00:07:58,340 S2: us rather than drive us toward others. 132 00:07:58,340 --> 00:08:02,060 S1: So yes. And and that is why I think you 133 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:06,100 S1: use the word embrace in the title of the book, 134 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:11,020 S1: because something happens when you accept it and you embrace 135 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:14,300 S1: it so that it can do the work inside of you. 136 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:18,860 S1: But talk about those ripples. Your family, your daughters, your wife, 137 00:08:19,140 --> 00:08:22,820 S1: they you know, they you didn't just, uh, fall and 138 00:08:22,820 --> 00:08:26,180 S1: hit your head and have all of these problems. The 139 00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:30,540 S1: succeeding years, they went through their own seasons, didn't they? 140 00:08:30,540 --> 00:08:33,220 S2: Oh, they did, they did I? My youngest ones were 141 00:08:33,220 --> 00:08:35,860 S2: there when I fell, and they came rolling around the 142 00:08:35,860 --> 00:08:38,340 S2: house to see their dad splayed out on the driveway. 143 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:40,740 S2: And that still lives with them. If you ask them, 144 00:08:41,020 --> 00:08:44,460 S2: they will say in tears, still, uh, what that meant 145 00:08:44,460 --> 00:08:47,780 S2: to them. And then my two older kids, uh, the 146 00:08:47,780 --> 00:08:50,240 S2: second daughter that was on the roof with me climbed 147 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,040 S2: up and into a window. Called mom and mom was 148 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,920 S2: on her way at the grocery store and came home. 149 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,880 S2: And lo and behold, she was following the paramedics right 150 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:03,640 S2: to our house. Only to see me there. So it was. 151 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,840 S2: It was a stressful would be an understatement. It was 152 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,880 S2: really just a crisis. And and for all of my 153 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,400 S2: kids to have me go through that. And then after that, 154 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,280 S2: it's just living with the consequences of all of that. 155 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,240 S2: You know, the pain I was in all the time. 156 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,160 S2: And I would often come home from work and, and 157 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,840 S2: Linda would take me to the doctor's office and get 158 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,440 S2: a couple shots of Demerol and go home and, and 159 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,720 S2: recover and then go back to work the next day. 160 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,360 S2: And that's, that was really the existence and those ripple 161 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,120 S2: effects still today. I can see elements of them in 162 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,720 S2: how my kids relate and, you know, the issues of 163 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,400 S2: trust and attachment and things like that. And that's the 164 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,080 S2: psychologist talking, of course. 165 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:46,880 S1: But yes. 166 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:47,699 S2: Um, but. 167 00:09:47,980 --> 00:09:48,819 S1: You can understand. 168 00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:49,900 S2: Those relationships. 169 00:09:49,940 --> 00:09:52,540 S1: Even right there. It's like you can you can wrap 170 00:09:52,540 --> 00:09:54,620 S1: your mind around it. You can you can put names 171 00:09:54,620 --> 00:09:56,819 S1: to all of these things. But going through it is 172 00:09:56,820 --> 00:09:58,260 S1: a different thing, isn't it? 173 00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:01,660 S2: Oh, very much. And that's the worst part of it. Right, 174 00:10:01,940 --> 00:10:04,900 S2: is that I can teach people all about attachment. But 175 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:08,059 S2: then when I have to look at my own tendencies 176 00:10:08,059 --> 00:10:12,459 S2: and see the impact of my accident on my kids 177 00:10:12,460 --> 00:10:15,699 S2: and the relationships they have and how they relate and, 178 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:18,980 S2: and all of those things, that's the problem. I know. 179 00:10:19,220 --> 00:10:21,500 S2: And it's a little bit like Solomon when he said, 180 00:10:21,620 --> 00:10:25,740 S2: you know, with much knowledge comes much grief. Well, that 181 00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:30,060 S2: there there's our word, right? The grief. And it's because 182 00:10:30,059 --> 00:10:33,380 S2: I know and and that is the challenge of, of 183 00:10:33,380 --> 00:10:36,819 S2: living with the knowledge I have and then also experiencing 184 00:10:36,820 --> 00:10:37,860 S2: it at the same time. 185 00:10:38,220 --> 00:10:43,460 S1: And so Doctor Mitch is teaching this to his, he's 186 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:47,830 S1: teaching about grief to his classes he's teaching about crisis 187 00:10:47,870 --> 00:10:51,589 S1: in trauma and giving him, even though the students didn't 188 00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:54,830 S1: know that, that he was giving his own story to them. 189 00:10:55,070 --> 00:10:57,750 S1: And there is some fresh grief that I want you 190 00:10:57,750 --> 00:11:00,709 S1: to hear about, and a reason for prayer that's going 191 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:03,430 S1: to come up in the program here, straight ahead. If 192 00:11:03,429 --> 00:11:07,150 S1: you go to Chris org, you'll see our featured resource today, 193 00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:11,510 S1: doctor Ray Mitch, his book, The Seasons of Our Grief 194 00:11:11,510 --> 00:11:27,429 S1: Embracing the journey. Just go to Chris. I do not 195 00:11:27,429 --> 00:11:30,150 S1: know what you're going through, but I know that there's 196 00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:33,229 S1: someone who cares a lot about what you're going through. 197 00:11:33,710 --> 00:11:35,910 S1: And that's why I wanted to have doctor Ray Mitch 198 00:11:35,950 --> 00:11:38,950 S1: on with us today to talk about the book, The 199 00:11:38,950 --> 00:11:43,310 S1: Seasons of Our Grief Embracing the Journey. It's our featured 200 00:11:43,309 --> 00:11:47,689 S1: resource at Chris Faber, Relive your doctor. Mitch serves as 201 00:11:47,690 --> 00:11:50,890 S1: the chair for the Department of Psychology and is professor 202 00:11:50,890 --> 00:11:53,690 S1: of psychology at Colorado Christian University. He's been in the 203 00:11:53,690 --> 00:12:01,570 S1: counseling profession since 1980. Wow, 45, 46 years. Yeah. You 204 00:12:01,610 --> 00:12:04,089 S1: wrote me when I asked you to, to come on 205 00:12:04,090 --> 00:12:06,689 S1: the program and you said, oh, yeah, just just so that, 206 00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:11,010 S1: you know, back in October, I, you know, I went 207 00:12:11,010 --> 00:12:15,570 S1: to the doctor and they explain what's the fresh grief 208 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:16,570 S1: that you're going through? 209 00:12:17,130 --> 00:12:22,610 S2: Oh, I the October was the first hint of something up. And, uh, 210 00:12:22,690 --> 00:12:27,610 S2: I was referred to a urologist because of the particular, uh, 211 00:12:27,610 --> 00:12:31,210 S2: prostate scores that I had, and, and he said, well, 212 00:12:31,210 --> 00:12:34,890 S2: let's do a biopsy. And the biopsy came back with 213 00:12:35,130 --> 00:12:38,170 S2: a pretty elevated. They call it a Gleason score, which 214 00:12:38,170 --> 00:12:41,050 S2: is kind of the aggressiveness. And then a follow up 215 00:12:41,050 --> 00:12:46,470 S2: Pet scan revealed that I have stage four metastatic prostate cancer, 216 00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:49,510 S2: which means that it has moved outside of the prostate. 217 00:12:50,070 --> 00:12:54,430 S2: I have a spot on my femur that darn right femur. 218 00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:56,670 S2: It just keeps acting up over. So that's the one. 219 00:12:56,670 --> 00:12:57,830 S1: You broke before? 220 00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:02,350 S2: Yeah it is. And then, uh, just a tiny spot 221 00:13:02,390 --> 00:13:06,390 S2: on my ribs, which, uh, is just, you know, metastatic 222 00:13:06,390 --> 00:13:10,590 S2: is in prostate terms is very different than, you know, 223 00:13:10,630 --> 00:13:14,830 S2: when you hear about somebody with pancreas. And here's the comparison, right. Um, 224 00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:17,710 S2: somebody with pancreatic cancer, when the doctor is saying you 225 00:13:17,710 --> 00:13:21,030 S2: need to get your affairs in order, prostate is very 226 00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:25,550 S2: slow moving. But, um, the medication I am now on, 227 00:13:25,830 --> 00:13:27,750 S2: I said to you as we were talking, it was 228 00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:31,710 S2: like my life is regulated by taking pills, and it's 229 00:13:31,710 --> 00:13:35,710 S2: a medication here and a medication there, and it zeros 230 00:13:35,710 --> 00:13:41,390 S2: out my testosterone. And, um, and it just is I, 231 00:13:41,550 --> 00:13:43,800 S2: you know, I went on the website and counted about 232 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:49,600 S2: 5 or 6 different losses of energy and acuity and, and, uh, 233 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:55,000 S2: pain in the joints and sleep disturbance and things like that. 234 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,840 S2: Those are all losses and they just add up and 235 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,680 S2: we just kind of pile them up. Keep on moving, 236 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,480 S2: keep doing what we do. And then it's like, oh, wow. 237 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,760 S2: I just I'm, I feel like I just got hit 238 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,560 S2: by a train. So, um, so and that's, that's really the, 239 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,120 S2: the season of winter where we're just kind of keep 240 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,680 S2: doing things and kind of automatic fashion, and then it's 241 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,000 S2: like I sit down long enough, I feel like a 242 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,720 S2: balloon deflating and and everything is gone. And it's like, 243 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,120 S2: I wonder why. It's like, well, you have this major 244 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:37,640 S2: wound that you have experienced and how we don't get 245 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,700 S2: a manual like 12 Quick Steps to surviving grief. Um, 246 00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:47,180 S2: because journeys and and maps of journeys don't. And and 247 00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:51,140 S2: obstacles change as you take that journey. And that's really 248 00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:54,060 S2: the journey of cancer that I'm now on the new 249 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:58,860 S2: chapter and it it has presented some real challenges. I 250 00:14:58,860 --> 00:15:02,980 S2: think for me, just in my conversations with God is 251 00:15:03,020 --> 00:15:06,300 S2: is just like, you know, you think comparisons or you 252 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:09,820 S2: think I deserve something and what have I done? And 253 00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:12,980 S2: and you cut deals which Kubler-Ross used to talk about 254 00:15:12,980 --> 00:15:16,100 S2: that as bargaining. And it's like, go to, you know, 255 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:18,380 S2: I'll go to church more. I don't do that. Uh, 256 00:15:18,380 --> 00:15:23,900 S2: I my I literally spend time uh, every evening is 257 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:28,260 S2: my is my ABBA time. And so I, I just 258 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:32,140 S2: pour out my heart, um, for the people in my 259 00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:35,260 S2: life and for me and what the future holds. And 260 00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:38,220 S2: since it's not real clear, it either will drive me 261 00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:42,200 S2: into isolation or drive me into connection. And, and that's 262 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,000 S2: that's where the big challenge is, I think sometimes. 263 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,120 S1: So the journaling is the journaling helped with all of that. 264 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,720 S2: Yeah, tremendously. So I think it for me it's at 265 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,240 S2: least it starts out as a travel log. It's like 266 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,920 S2: this day has been, you know, uh, kind of rotten and, 267 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,360 S2: and I, I'm running out of gas and energy, and 268 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,000 S2: I feel like I feel like I should here's the 269 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,680 S2: should coming up. I feel like I should be doing 270 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,080 S2: this better. Uh, I should be surviving these side effects better. 271 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,200 S2: And that really just opens the output valve bigger. You know, 272 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:26,120 S2: it just drains even faster. And but that that literally 273 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,560 S2: for me in, in my own spiritual journey is this 274 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,840 S2: is my conversation at the well with Jesus and saying, 275 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:42,300 S2: I just don't understand why this. Why now? And I, 276 00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:45,980 S2: I've got students to teach. I've got people to care for. 277 00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:48,739 S2: I you know, and you're now you're going to hamstring 278 00:16:48,740 --> 00:16:52,580 S2: me this way. And so there's anger and there's, you know, 279 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:56,780 S2: just despair that's shown up. And I'm, you know, not 280 00:16:56,780 --> 00:17:00,140 S2: to overspiritualize it, but I'm reminded of, of, you know, 281 00:17:00,180 --> 00:17:05,659 S2: Jeremiah in Lamentations or job in, in that's gotten to 282 00:17:05,660 --> 00:17:09,260 S2: be my favorite book. It's like this man's speaking my 283 00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:11,700 S2: language when I go through all of this stuff. And 284 00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:17,500 S2: that's really that keeps me recalibrated to God's heart. And I, 285 00:17:18,060 --> 00:17:20,859 S2: I can hang on to that. I can't hang on 286 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:24,700 S2: to my circumstances. They're always going to change. My body 287 00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:27,660 S2: is going to change. But hanging on to the heart 288 00:17:27,660 --> 00:17:29,740 S2: of of my ABBA does. 289 00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:35,460 S1: And the irony that you're teaching this semester, you're teaching 290 00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:40,520 S1: on grief and loss. Um, when you when you revealed 291 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,800 S1: all of this, even though you did it, you didn't 292 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,960 S1: tell them you were telling your story when you revealed 293 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,280 S1: that it was you that you were talking about. How 294 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:49,320 S1: did they respond? 295 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,600 S2: Uh, pretty much stunned. Some of them got mad at me, um, 296 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,679 S2: which I heard about later. Um, but it was compounded 297 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,520 S2: because I did one doing what I had described to you, Chris, 298 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,840 S2: the case study. And I used the subject of the 299 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,399 S2: case study as being me, but they didn't know it. 300 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,560 S2: And I laid out and said I had them count 301 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,440 S2: how many crises and what kind of traumatic experience this 302 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:20,040 S2: person had had. And and they they dutifully took up 303 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,959 S2: that mantle and did it. And then when I got 304 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:24,639 S2: to the end, it was like, oh, all right, wait 305 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,960 S2: a minute. And so there's that. And then the other 306 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,359 S2: class is the grief and loss. And I just tell 307 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,810 S2: my journey through loss and starting with my dad and 308 00:18:35,810 --> 00:18:39,170 S2: then moving on to my mother in law and my 309 00:18:39,170 --> 00:18:43,730 S2: father in law, and a pet loss of a golden 310 00:18:43,730 --> 00:18:47,930 S2: retriever we had for 16 years and and, um, a 311 00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:51,850 S2: good friend for 32 years that died of bladder cancer. 312 00:18:52,170 --> 00:18:56,490 S2: And it was just like one thing after another. And 313 00:18:56,530 --> 00:18:59,690 S2: it's like, how do you keep perspective? How do you 314 00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:03,929 S2: hang on? And it's like, well, I the one conclusion 315 00:19:03,930 --> 00:19:06,250 S2: I've come to and I sound a little bit like, well, 316 00:19:06,250 --> 00:19:08,850 S2: I'm not going to put myself in the same audience 317 00:19:08,850 --> 00:19:11,850 S2: as King Solomon. But it's like when it all comes 318 00:19:11,850 --> 00:19:15,130 S2: down to the final analysis, I still have my ABBA. 319 00:19:15,369 --> 00:19:19,970 S2: Everything else is going to change. Yeah, but I still 320 00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:20,609 S2: have him. 321 00:19:21,609 --> 00:19:23,930 S1: And he's the one who's hanging on to you. You're not. 322 00:19:23,970 --> 00:19:26,010 S1: I mean, you are hanging on to him. Yeah, but 323 00:19:26,010 --> 00:19:30,770 S1: you know that his hold is tighter on you than 324 00:19:30,810 --> 00:19:32,530 S1: you could ever hold on to him. 325 00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:33,750 S2: Um, Easily. 326 00:19:34,510 --> 00:19:36,910 S1: But do you feel that? And you read this in 327 00:19:36,910 --> 00:19:39,710 S1: the Psalms, and my guess is your journal reflects this 328 00:19:39,710 --> 00:19:42,389 S1: as well. It's like God, I feel, I feel I 329 00:19:42,430 --> 00:19:44,790 S1: felt like I learned in that fall in the broken 330 00:19:44,790 --> 00:19:47,870 S1: femur and the headaches, and I learned enough, you know, 331 00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:50,670 S1: leave me alone. Leave me alone here. Why? I don't 332 00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:54,030 S1: need any more of this. What is. What do you 333 00:19:54,030 --> 00:19:54,510 S1: take from this? 334 00:19:54,510 --> 00:19:59,550 S2: Oh, man, I well, it's funny, it's not funny, but I. 335 00:19:59,550 --> 00:20:01,950 S2: I had a student actually give me a note this 336 00:20:01,950 --> 00:20:05,149 S2: morning after hearing my story, and one of the things 337 00:20:05,150 --> 00:20:09,030 S2: she said in there was, uh, I said, oh, I said, uh, 338 00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:12,470 S2: I am the slowest learner in the history of humanity. 339 00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:15,590 S2: I keep going back to doing the same thing. And 340 00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:20,190 S2: her comment was, I feel that way, too. And and that's. 341 00:20:22,750 --> 00:20:28,469 S2: I being human means forgetting, and being human means being 342 00:20:28,470 --> 00:20:35,010 S2: stubborn and doing it myself And and God in his 343 00:20:35,050 --> 00:20:39,410 S2: grace actually gives me the freedom to do that. And 344 00:20:39,410 --> 00:20:41,730 S2: then I come running back and he still meets me 345 00:20:41,730 --> 00:20:46,609 S2: with open arms. And and that's that's the learn. That's 346 00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:49,929 S2: how I've learned so much about grace is not in 347 00:20:49,930 --> 00:20:53,690 S2: blowing it and shaking my fist at him. It's been 348 00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:57,449 S2: the coming back and realizing I was still. I'm still 349 00:20:57,450 --> 00:20:59,889 S2: loved every bit as much as when I was yelling 350 00:20:59,890 --> 00:21:01,410 S2: at him. Yes. 351 00:21:02,369 --> 00:21:08,690 S1: Crawling up into his lap and experiencing that his. His 352 00:21:08,810 --> 00:21:12,609 S1: enveloping grace. That's what you're talking about. So. Yeah. I 353 00:21:12,609 --> 00:21:14,649 S1: want to get to the. I want to get to 354 00:21:14,690 --> 00:21:17,610 S1: the seasons. And you've alluded to that just a minute ago. 355 00:21:17,609 --> 00:21:21,690 S1: But I want our listeners to know right now that 356 00:21:21,690 --> 00:21:25,770 S1: after you finish here and this just kind of happened today, 357 00:21:25,810 --> 00:21:28,650 S1: I said, let's do this, you know, sooner rather than later. 358 00:21:28,650 --> 00:21:31,369 S1: You thought your first radiation was going to be last Friday, 359 00:21:32,060 --> 00:21:34,420 S1: But after you do this program and you have an 360 00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:36,820 S1: appointment for a half an hour, you're going to get 361 00:21:36,859 --> 00:21:38,820 S1: in the car and drive and you're having your radio. 362 00:21:38,859 --> 00:21:41,060 S1: The first radiation today, is that right? 363 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:45,179 S2: I am, I am, and it's you sit and a 364 00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:50,619 S2: big machine with paddles on both sides that that you're 365 00:21:50,619 --> 00:21:55,380 S2: sitting in and that rotates around you with the radiation to. 366 00:21:55,420 --> 00:21:58,900 S2: And it's all targeting for me, at least my prostate. 367 00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,620 S2: And then I have to later have the treatment for 368 00:22:01,619 --> 00:22:02,419 S2: my femur. 369 00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:07,179 S1: What is the feeling of that? That today is the 370 00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:09,740 S1: first day because you said before the program, you said 371 00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:11,300 S1: on Friday I thought they were going to do it 372 00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:14,540 S1: the first time because I was already. And now they said, no, no, 373 00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:15,540 S1: we're going on Monday. 374 00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:19,060 S2: Yeah, it's a dry run. And I kind of got 375 00:22:19,060 --> 00:22:23,700 S2: that feeling. You know, I if anybody's ever watched the 376 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:28,900 S2: movie Shadowlands, it's about C.S. Lewis's love affair with Joy Grisham. 377 00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:32,720 S2: And I see the pictures in there of what radiation 378 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,440 S2: looked like in the 60s, and it's it is so 379 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,400 S2: much more advanced. But man, there is no time where 380 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,760 S2: you feel more vulnerable and more feeling like, man, I 381 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,280 S2: sure hope this works. And and you really have no 382 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,320 S2: feedback whether it does or not. I mean, when you're 383 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:54,240 S2: in pain and you take Advil or something, it eventually 384 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,440 S2: goes away and you say, I'm glad I did that. Well, 385 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,479 S2: radiation doesn't work that way. It's in very, very small 386 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,440 S2: doses and but over a long period of time and, 387 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,560 S2: and I, you know, it's just that's just it is 388 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,600 S2: you you're just there and you're getting bombarded by this 389 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:20,360 S2: stuff and it's like, well, God, I hope this works. 390 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,280 S2: If it doesn't, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. 391 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,040 S2: That's part of the journey. Uh, but man, I sure 392 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:32,220 S2: hope this works. And and I get deflated after it all, 393 00:23:32,260 --> 00:23:34,780 S2: you know, because I, I kind of work myself up 394 00:23:34,980 --> 00:23:38,060 S2: to doing this thing. And then when it's over, I 395 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:42,020 S2: just start losing ground pretty quick. Yeah. 396 00:23:42,580 --> 00:23:45,740 S1: And that is, that is part of because of the 397 00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:49,580 S1: cyclical nature of this and because of the loss that 398 00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:51,420 S1: it's not like, okay, I'm going to do this and 399 00:23:51,420 --> 00:23:54,179 S1: this happens. You you have to let go of that. 400 00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:57,220 S1: You have to surrender that because you don't know. Right. 401 00:23:57,420 --> 00:23:59,979 S2: Yeah. Yeah. And that's the worst part of it is 402 00:24:00,020 --> 00:24:03,740 S2: that grief presents us is I, I don't have any 403 00:24:03,740 --> 00:24:06,500 S2: control over it. I mean, up until. And that's kind 404 00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:10,060 S2: of how grief works, right? It it reminds us of 405 00:24:10,060 --> 00:24:13,740 S2: how little control we have. And, and in our lives, 406 00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:17,379 S2: we have a fair amount of ability to manage people 407 00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:21,220 S2: manage the world around us, the way we interact, how 408 00:24:21,220 --> 00:24:24,900 S2: we do our jobs, all of those things. And then 409 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:28,080 S2: grief comes along and just kind of Puts. Puts a 410 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,520 S2: punctuation at the end of that sentence. It's like, wait, wait, wait, 411 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,680 S2: I'm not done. And and then it's like, nope, this 412 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,400 S2: is a new journey. And and so I can I 413 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,160 S2: can drag my feet the entire way or I, you know, 414 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,880 S2: it's like, I don't think we have to say yippee! 415 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,240 S2: I can't wait to start this new, you know, journey 416 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:55,840 S2: through this valley of of death. But I1I don't have 417 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,280 S2: to be alone. And that's not only meaning God or Christ, 418 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,280 S2: it's also family and friends. I mean, I can already 419 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,399 S2: tell that I'm not going to make it through this 420 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:13,000 S2: without Linda's commitment to bearing with me I am. I'm 421 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,160 S2: a bear. When I feel bad and really isolated and 422 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,600 S2: really closed off because it's just, I, I it's all 423 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,280 S2: I can do to manage the pain that I have, 424 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,580 S2: and I don't really want it to to spill out 425 00:25:26,619 --> 00:25:30,060 S2: on other people and she has been very kind. 426 00:25:30,660 --> 00:25:34,060 S1: Thank you for being honest. Somebody needed to hear that today. 427 00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:36,660 S1: Just like your student who wrote you that note. There's 428 00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:40,020 S1: somebody listening today who said, that's it. I'm not alone 429 00:25:40,020 --> 00:25:42,659 S1: because Ray is doing the same thing. So in our 430 00:25:42,660 --> 00:25:46,899 S1: next segment, the seasons of our grief, Embracing the journey, 431 00:25:46,940 --> 00:25:49,419 S1: we're going to talk about those seasons. I want to 432 00:25:49,420 --> 00:25:51,660 S1: ask you to pray for Ray, especially today on this 433 00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:54,900 S1: first day of his radiation. This is Chris Fabry live 434 00:25:54,900 --> 00:26:07,540 S1: on Moody Radio. After Ray, Mitch is with us today, 435 00:26:07,580 --> 00:26:10,460 S1: author of The Seasons of Our Grief. He helped me 436 00:26:10,460 --> 00:26:13,700 S1: out last week in this situation that I was going through, 437 00:26:13,740 --> 00:26:17,219 S1: that we talked about the farm sale and the the 438 00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:20,100 S1: emotion that came with that. And I wanted to have 439 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:22,380 S1: him on here today not only to tell a little 440 00:26:22,420 --> 00:26:25,710 S1: bit of his story, but also to elicit your prayer 441 00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:28,229 S1: response for him, because today is the first day of 442 00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:33,149 S1: his beginning of the radiation treatment and all that will ensue. 443 00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:34,990 S1: I think it's you told me off the air. It 444 00:26:34,990 --> 00:26:37,750 S1: was like four weeks, five days a week. And it's 445 00:26:37,790 --> 00:26:41,310 S1: it's going to be relentless. It's going to be a struggle. 446 00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:43,389 S1: And I know that you're going to soldier through it. 447 00:26:43,390 --> 00:26:46,950 S1: But I wanted our listeners to to hear your story 448 00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:51,350 S1: today and to be praying, especially right after the program today. Um, 449 00:26:51,390 --> 00:26:55,590 S1: I put a question on Facebook and I said this, uh, 450 00:26:55,590 --> 00:26:59,110 S1: some see, grief is linear. You lose someone or something, 451 00:26:59,109 --> 00:27:02,270 S1: you walk through stages, you heal and you move on. 452 00:27:02,869 --> 00:27:06,750 S1: Doctor Mitch says there's a cycle of seasons within the 453 00:27:06,750 --> 00:27:11,270 S1: grieving process, and people just responded. Lisa Ann said, for me, 454 00:27:11,310 --> 00:27:16,870 S1: grief has always had unexpected twists and turns emotionally and spiritually. 455 00:27:16,869 --> 00:27:22,950 S1: It's not predictable or smooth in my experience. At times, 456 00:27:23,090 --> 00:27:27,050 S1: Karen says grief has been a blanket. At times, grief 457 00:27:27,050 --> 00:27:30,330 S1: has been a monster. Grief is complex. I have learned 458 00:27:30,330 --> 00:27:33,570 S1: this over 17 years, becoming a widow when I had 459 00:27:33,570 --> 00:27:37,169 S1: a seven year old. It still haunts me at times. 460 00:27:37,770 --> 00:27:40,690 S1: It's been six years since I lost my husband, Christine says. 461 00:27:40,690 --> 00:27:42,730 S1: Not a day goes by. I don't think of him. 462 00:27:42,730 --> 00:27:45,650 S1: I have some wonderful days with memories, and other days 463 00:27:45,650 --> 00:27:48,250 S1: a small memory has me weeping and I might cry 464 00:27:48,290 --> 00:27:53,330 S1: myself to sleep. And then one more. Anne Marie I 465 00:27:53,330 --> 00:27:57,170 S1: think of it as a giant labyrinth with the original 466 00:27:57,170 --> 00:28:01,450 S1: pain at the center. You start there, and finding your 467 00:28:01,450 --> 00:28:04,090 S1: way out may hit dead ends where you have to 468 00:28:04,130 --> 00:28:08,290 S1: retrace your steps or routes may take you far away 469 00:28:08,290 --> 00:28:11,170 S1: from the original pain. All of a sudden you'll be 470 00:28:11,170 --> 00:28:13,850 S1: walking back toward it. It's a journey that is never 471 00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:17,609 S1: just checkpoint after checkpoint. Isn't that good? Right? 472 00:28:17,650 --> 00:28:20,490 S2: I love that imagery. I'm going to use that. 473 00:28:23,390 --> 00:28:24,750 S3: Tell me how you came up. 474 00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:28,230 S1: With the seasons idea, because this is going to help 475 00:28:28,230 --> 00:28:30,190 S1: somebody today who's in the middle of it. 476 00:28:30,590 --> 00:28:35,790 S2: Yeah. I have been, uh, walking with people besides doing 477 00:28:35,790 --> 00:28:38,670 S2: my own journey. I have been doing that for a 478 00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:43,550 S2: long time. And because ultimately, any counselors work always has 479 00:28:43,550 --> 00:28:46,510 S2: loss embedded in it. I think it's the lot of 480 00:28:46,510 --> 00:28:49,469 S2: us as humans living in a broken world with broken 481 00:28:49,470 --> 00:28:53,790 S2: relationships and all of that. And and so it occurred 482 00:28:53,790 --> 00:28:58,550 S2: to me, as I heard people talking about stages, is 483 00:28:58,550 --> 00:29:04,190 S2: that our, uh, innate human tendency is how can I, um, 484 00:29:04,790 --> 00:29:08,790 S2: make it predictable? And so if I can get to 485 00:29:08,830 --> 00:29:11,270 S2: and I've had people say this, okay, I got through 486 00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:14,790 S2: stage one, which is denial. I'm not in denial anymore. 487 00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:18,710 S2: Which the minute somebody says that, I'm already suspicious, but 488 00:29:19,270 --> 00:29:21,400 S2: I'm not in denial anymore. So how do I get 489 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,400 S2: to the next one? Or how long is that going 490 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,320 S2: to take? And you know, usually I lose a lot 491 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,000 S2: of clients when I say, well, as long as it 492 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,000 S2: takes and it's like, well, that's not helpful. Bye. And, 493 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,920 S2: and I, you know, it's after doing that. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, 494 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,160 S2: by the way, never intended her stages to be used 495 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,440 S2: the way they have been. Um, she had spin wheels 496 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,560 S2: around those points in time. And the longer I looked 497 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,720 S2: at that. And then I did plenty of other research. Um, 498 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,120 S2: some another author has talked about, um, what is kind 499 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,560 S2: of developmental stages? How do I develop and walk through 500 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,280 S2: this journey? And he identified, uh, you know, kind of 501 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,240 S2: five different kind of, uh, mileposts along the way. And 502 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,600 S2: from that, I took that and I took from my 503 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,840 S2: own experience and, and landed in and tried it out. 504 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,180 S2: And the people I was talking to was seasoned. Yeah, 505 00:30:20,180 --> 00:30:22,940 S2: I know how that works. I can be like we 506 00:30:22,940 --> 00:30:26,340 S2: had in Denver. I can have summer at 8:00 in 507 00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:30,620 S2: the morning and winter in the evening. And and that. 508 00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:34,420 S2: Welcome to grief. Right. And the labyrinth idea is even 509 00:30:34,420 --> 00:30:39,940 S2: more rich. And so as I started thinking that through, 510 00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:44,060 S2: I thought, boy, that's so true that once I get 511 00:30:44,060 --> 00:30:48,500 S2: through winter, I have to accept reality there and accept 512 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:53,260 S2: doesn't mean it says it's okay. It's accepting and grounding 513 00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:56,820 S2: ourselves in this is where I am. And I feel 514 00:30:56,820 --> 00:31:00,500 S2: that right now, with this journey of going through the 515 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:04,140 S2: cancer that I have is like, I fight with, I 516 00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:06,980 S2: don't have cancer, I'm fine. I mean, I, I look, 517 00:31:06,980 --> 00:31:09,380 S2: I got up in the morning, I did my classes, 518 00:31:09,780 --> 00:31:14,820 S2: talked to a few students. What's wrong? And it's like, yeah, right. 519 00:31:14,820 --> 00:31:19,200 S2: And and then I start losing ground. It's like, oh well, okay, 520 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:24,920 S2: here we go again. And so, you know, winter is 521 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,600 S2: that time of kind of inactivity and kind of framing 522 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,320 S2: it so I can manage it better. And, and as 523 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,640 S2: I move through it, I spring begins. There's some energy 524 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,920 S2: comes back. I start feeling things. I'm not real crazy 525 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,280 S2: about the feeling part of it, because during winter it's 526 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:47,040 S2: pretty numb. But then when we feel it during that time, 527 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,640 S2: that's really where a lot of the work begins. And 528 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,040 S2: then once we get beyond and work through some of 529 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,880 S2: those things, then summer is an activity. I start, I 530 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,080 S2: start taking some of those feelings and pointing them in 531 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,040 S2: directions of saying goodbye or working through somebody's belongings or, 532 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,640 S2: you know, adapting one's life to the changes that we 533 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:17,060 S2: have through a terminal illness. And then as that And again, 534 00:32:17,060 --> 00:32:20,740 S2: there's no timeline here, but the season is it helps 535 00:32:20,740 --> 00:32:24,740 S2: us understand. I can be in spring and still have 536 00:32:24,740 --> 00:32:27,820 S2: winter intrude, and I can be in spring, and summer 537 00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:32,180 S2: will intrude. And so there's not clean lines between these 538 00:32:32,220 --> 00:32:35,820 S2: at all. The thing I do know is that sooner 539 00:32:35,820 --> 00:32:39,940 S2: or later, fall comes, and when fall comes, color begins 540 00:32:39,940 --> 00:32:43,540 S2: to come back and relationships seem to take on a 541 00:32:43,540 --> 00:32:48,140 S2: different character. Because I have changed. And guess what's coming? 542 00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:54,940 S2: And and it's anniversaries of people's birthdays and Thanksgiving and Christmas. 543 00:32:55,140 --> 00:32:59,940 S2: And so it's like a mini winter again. But see, 544 00:32:59,980 --> 00:33:04,060 S2: we live and adapt to the seasons all of our lives. 545 00:33:04,660 --> 00:33:09,060 S2: And I would also add, that's exactly what Solomon talks 546 00:33:09,060 --> 00:33:13,940 S2: about in Ecclesiastes. There is a season for everything. And 547 00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:17,200 S2: that's that's why I landed on this, because it brings 548 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,560 S2: together the developmental piece of what we experience as humans, 549 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,880 S2: and then also the experiential piece of feeling and the 550 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,640 S2: numbness and the activity and all the emotions and everything else. 551 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,240 S2: And so I know I'm charting a different course. It's 552 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,880 S2: just I look at my experience like stages. Nah, I 553 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,080 S2: don't think so. Um, and because before too long is like. 554 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,400 S2: So if I get all the way to stage three 555 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,280 S2: and then I go back into denial, am I going backwards? 556 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,360 S2: And that's the problem with linearity. It's like there's only 557 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,520 S2: one way and it's like, not really. And that's why 558 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,600 S2: the seasons, I think, are a way to think about it. 559 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:57,680 S3: Isn't that why. 560 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,520 S1: We often I will I'll say this or somebody will say, 561 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,000 S1: I'm back to square one. You know this. Oh, we're 562 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,920 S1: back to square one here with the relationship struggle or whatever. 563 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,760 S1: It's like, no, you're not really back to square one. 564 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,799 S1: You have grown through whatever it is, you know, it's it's, um, 565 00:34:14,410 --> 00:34:16,370 S1: You don't want to be where you are right now, 566 00:34:16,370 --> 00:34:18,450 S1: but you are where you. You're where you are. You 567 00:34:18,450 --> 00:34:21,850 S1: gotta be where you are. And so to say, to 568 00:34:21,890 --> 00:34:24,730 S1: say I'm back to square one because I made that mistake. 569 00:34:24,730 --> 00:34:26,730 S1: Or I said this, or I had this thought or 570 00:34:26,730 --> 00:34:30,130 S1: whatever it is that's going on is really not true, 571 00:34:30,170 --> 00:34:30,689 S1: is it? 572 00:34:31,370 --> 00:34:35,010 S2: No, it really isn't. And I describe it as climbing 573 00:34:35,010 --> 00:34:38,730 S2: a mountain, but climbing it in a, in a circular way, 574 00:34:39,050 --> 00:34:43,770 S2: a circumlocution way. That's a big word for today. Um, 575 00:34:43,850 --> 00:34:46,730 S2: but literally, if I could, I could follow Longs Peak 576 00:34:46,730 --> 00:34:49,370 S2: here in Colorado and go all the way around it. 577 00:34:49,370 --> 00:34:53,049 S2: And every spiral I get a little farther up. And 578 00:34:53,050 --> 00:34:55,609 S2: then if I go, I go back a little bit. 579 00:34:55,610 --> 00:34:59,250 S2: I'm still higher than I was before. And so our 580 00:34:59,250 --> 00:35:03,650 S2: spiral journey, we see new vistas. We get false summits, 581 00:35:03,650 --> 00:35:07,690 S2: which we can get really irritated about, but we it. 582 00:35:07,810 --> 00:35:11,049 S2: I'm not back to square one. It feels like I'm 583 00:35:11,050 --> 00:35:14,670 S2: back at square one, but I if I look around 584 00:35:14,670 --> 00:35:17,110 S2: and see the people that I can connect with during 585 00:35:17,110 --> 00:35:20,189 S2: that time, it doesn't feel that way. It's not that 586 00:35:20,190 --> 00:35:22,509 S2: way at all. And we are always kind of comparing. 587 00:35:22,510 --> 00:35:26,350 S2: This is a good comparison. My experiences and feelings with 588 00:35:26,350 --> 00:35:29,710 S2: the reality of where I'm living and bringing those kind 589 00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:32,430 S2: of intention. I don't think they have to win one 590 00:35:32,430 --> 00:35:34,790 S2: over another, but I think we have to live in 591 00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:36,070 S2: the tension between them. 592 00:35:36,830 --> 00:35:39,790 S1: You know, the other analogy that comes in here, Ray, 593 00:35:39,830 --> 00:35:43,270 S1: is the, uh, it feels like through all of this, 594 00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:46,670 S1: through grief or the struggles that we're in, that we're 595 00:35:46,670 --> 00:35:50,870 S1: free soloing that mountain, that it's we're we're climbing up, 596 00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:53,270 S1: we're looking for a handhold that'll get us a little 597 00:35:53,310 --> 00:35:56,270 S1: bit further up, and we don't have any cords to 598 00:35:56,310 --> 00:35:59,270 S1: hang on to us. And the only people that are 599 00:35:59,270 --> 00:36:02,069 S1: just the people down watching you become a speck as 600 00:36:02,070 --> 00:36:06,029 S1: you climb the the granite cliff. And, uh, this comes 601 00:36:06,030 --> 00:36:07,830 S1: to mind because of the fellow who I think it 602 00:36:07,830 --> 00:36:10,950 S1: was in Japan. He climbed this, you know, the big 603 00:36:10,989 --> 00:36:15,010 S1: tall building. Yeah, but free solo. But if you're a believer, 604 00:36:15,010 --> 00:36:18,050 S1: you're not. You're never free soloing, are you? 605 00:36:18,570 --> 00:36:21,489 S2: No, you're really not. And I think we don't discover 606 00:36:21,489 --> 00:36:26,530 S2: the traveling companions until we start the journey. It's not. 607 00:36:26,570 --> 00:36:28,890 S2: I look up the. Well, there's one at, you know, 608 00:36:28,930 --> 00:36:31,450 S2: stage two, and there's one at four. I can get 609 00:36:31,450 --> 00:36:34,450 S2: to those. And it's like, no, there. There are some 610 00:36:34,489 --> 00:36:38,770 S2: unexpected traveling companions along the way that I think are 611 00:36:39,850 --> 00:36:43,290 S2: God sent to to speak into our hearts at the 612 00:36:43,290 --> 00:36:46,890 S2: time that we need the most? Yeah. 613 00:36:47,370 --> 00:36:49,489 S1: I want to I want to take a break. And 614 00:36:49,489 --> 00:36:52,689 S1: when I come back, when we come back, I want 615 00:36:52,690 --> 00:36:57,969 S1: you to explain that word, though, embracing, because that's the 616 00:36:57,969 --> 00:37:01,089 S1: hard part of the seasons of our grief is I 617 00:37:01,090 --> 00:37:03,810 S1: don't I want this gone. I want this out of 618 00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:08,250 S1: my life. How what happens when I, you know, get 619 00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:10,950 S1: over the hump to say, okay, I'm going to embrace this. 620 00:37:10,989 --> 00:37:13,029 S1: What does that look like? And what does it do 621 00:37:13,070 --> 00:37:16,790 S1: on the inside? Doctor Ray Mitch has written the seasons 622 00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:21,230 S1: of our grief. It's our featured resource at crisp. Org. 623 00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:24,110 S1: Click through today's information right there. Chris Barry. 624 00:37:35,230 --> 00:37:36,150 S4: This is Chris Fabry. 625 00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:39,630 S1: Live on Moody Radio. If this topic is reaching into 626 00:37:39,630 --> 00:37:42,950 S1: your heart and life, I'd love to get your feedback. 627 00:37:42,989 --> 00:37:46,150 S1: If you go to Chris Fabry lives on the main page, 628 00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:48,870 S1: there's a way to connect with us and you can 629 00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:51,830 S1: respond to our topic today or anything else that you 630 00:37:51,830 --> 00:37:56,710 S1: want to send our way. Ideas for future programs. And 631 00:37:56,750 --> 00:38:00,189 S1: if you click through today's information, you'll see doctor Ray, 632 00:38:00,230 --> 00:38:05,870 S1: Mitch MIT, who has written the Seasons of Our Grief 633 00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:11,240 S1: Embracing the Journey. Just go to Chris. Org. I remember 634 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,880 S1: having I mentioned the old Open Line program. Tim Hansel 635 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,319 S1: was a guest and I'd have Tim on anything he 636 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,160 S1: wanted to talk, read the phone book I'd have him 637 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,680 S1: on because he went through a lot of pain and 638 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,160 S1: grief in his own life. He had been mountain climbing. 639 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,440 S1: He fell, broke many of the bones in his body 640 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,760 S1: and lived with constant pain, physical pain for the rest 641 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,239 S1: of his life. And the question he would say when 642 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,960 S1: he goes to speak, people will ask him which is 643 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,440 S1: worst physical pain or emotional pain? And his answer was always, 644 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,200 S1: they both stink and they're both really hard. But he 645 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:55,320 S1: said the emotional pain is probably harder because it's you 646 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,600 S1: can't touch it, you can't see it, you can't. You 647 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,560 S1: can feel it emotionally, but you can't handle it. Would 648 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,200 S1: you agree with what Tim said? 649 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,680 S2: Absolutely. I mean, I think if you if you look 650 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,779 S2: closely at one of my eyebrows, it's pretty clear that 651 00:39:09,780 --> 00:39:12,980 S2: that I had some some, uh, sutures up there, and 652 00:39:12,980 --> 00:39:15,980 S2: that was part of the head injury that I had. 653 00:39:16,260 --> 00:39:19,980 S2: And the thing is about physical things is I can 654 00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:23,180 S2: see them. I can touch them. I can say, oh, yeah, 655 00:39:23,219 --> 00:39:28,500 S2: now I understand. But emotional pain, we're really quite creative 656 00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:31,580 S2: in how we cover for that. And you really, really 657 00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:35,980 S2: can't tell. Which means that ultimately I'm alone in the 658 00:39:35,980 --> 00:39:39,100 S2: midst of it. And and so if we could find 659 00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:43,540 S2: a way to touch on that and that part of 660 00:39:43,580 --> 00:39:47,020 S2: the emotional piece and have some validity to it, I 661 00:39:47,020 --> 00:39:50,100 S2: think there would be some more productive conversations. And I 662 00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:53,460 S2: couldn't agree more with that. Is that what I'm feeling 663 00:39:53,460 --> 00:39:56,779 S2: inside anybody meeting me at any given point in time 664 00:39:56,780 --> 00:40:02,300 S2: when know nothing about what I'm experiencing, grappling with this 665 00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:05,100 S2: monster of of cancer that I have? 666 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,399 S1: Yeah. And and isn't that just like the enemy who 667 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,200 S1: wants to isolate us? Who wants us to feel like 668 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,280 S1: we're all alone? We're disconnected from each other and from God? Um, 669 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,440 S1: so the main question in this segment I want you 670 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,200 S1: to answer is why that? Why did you use the 671 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,680 S1: word embrace or embracing the seasons of our grief, embracing 672 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,960 S1: the journey. How do we do that? 673 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,400 S2: Yeah, the the I, I intentionally chose that partly because 674 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:41,040 S2: it's not only continuing embracing, but it is also I 675 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,640 S2: have to have enough acceptance to lean into it and 676 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,040 S2: and embrace it in some way. Which doesn't mean I'm 677 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,919 S2: saying it's okay, but it does mean that I have 678 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,920 S2: accepted the reality that it's going to be part of 679 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,279 S2: the landscape of my journey for quite some time. And 680 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,439 S2: I think I mentioned to you, I there's a little 681 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,489 S2: story that I tell my students. It's called kissing your 682 00:41:05,489 --> 00:41:07,770 S2: monster on the nose. And it's about a little girl 683 00:41:07,770 --> 00:41:11,810 S2: that's hitchhiking or hiking in the mountains, and she comes 684 00:41:11,810 --> 00:41:14,130 S2: up to a fork in the road. And each each 685 00:41:14,170 --> 00:41:17,529 S2: fork has a monster in it. And one is gurgling 686 00:41:17,530 --> 00:41:20,649 S2: and screaming and yelling and everything else. And the other 687 00:41:20,650 --> 00:41:23,490 S2: one has this really nice voice and says, hey, follow me. 688 00:41:23,530 --> 00:41:25,890 S2: I have a quicker way to get through it and 689 00:41:25,890 --> 00:41:29,250 S2: get it done and things like that. And initially she goes, 690 00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:32,690 S2: but something in her says there's something really not right here. 691 00:41:32,930 --> 00:41:36,770 S2: And so she releases that monster, runs back to the 692 00:41:37,010 --> 00:41:39,210 S2: fork in the road and looks at that other monster. 693 00:41:39,210 --> 00:41:42,649 S2: It's still gurgling and growling and everything else, but she 694 00:41:42,650 --> 00:41:46,090 S2: goes up to it and kisses it on the nose, 695 00:41:46,250 --> 00:41:50,009 S2: and the monster suddenly can speak, and it says, I 696 00:41:50,010 --> 00:41:52,770 S2: was just trying to tell you not to follow the 697 00:41:52,770 --> 00:41:57,049 S2: other one. And that's how we we see grief as 698 00:41:57,050 --> 00:42:00,810 S2: a monster. And if I, I fight it and wrestle 699 00:42:00,810 --> 00:42:04,310 S2: with it and all of those things, then I'll get 700 00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:08,669 S2: through it quicker. Right. Versus guess it. Kissing it on 701 00:42:08,670 --> 00:42:11,870 S2: its nose. Embracing it. It is part of the landscape 702 00:42:11,870 --> 00:42:15,310 S2: of the story of my life. How do I increasingly 703 00:42:15,310 --> 00:42:17,710 S2: make it part of the story? And that's what I 704 00:42:17,710 --> 00:42:19,750 S2: mean by embracing. Yeah. 705 00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:23,670 S1: That's a very good a very good way to put it, 706 00:42:23,950 --> 00:42:28,509 S1: but very hard to do, because especially in this microwave 707 00:42:28,510 --> 00:42:31,469 S1: culture that we have. Right. We we want to be 708 00:42:31,469 --> 00:42:34,469 S1: past it. We, you know, here's all the books that 709 00:42:34,469 --> 00:42:37,230 S1: sell the most are the five steps to ten steps 710 00:42:37,230 --> 00:42:40,550 S1: to do this as quickly as you can possibly do it. 711 00:42:40,989 --> 00:42:46,069 S1: And it's it's as if God, when Jesus came, he 712 00:42:46,110 --> 00:42:49,550 S1: walked everywhere he went at the speed of of just 713 00:42:49,590 --> 00:42:52,830 S1: the the speed of his footsteps. Right. 714 00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:58,430 S2: Right. Yeah. And that's I mean, his life is a journey, literally. 715 00:42:58,430 --> 00:43:02,250 S2: And and it's often referred to as that way And 716 00:43:02,250 --> 00:43:05,370 S2: the end of his journey was the, you know, the 717 00:43:05,370 --> 00:43:10,770 S2: crucifixion and the resurrection. And so, you know, the we 718 00:43:10,810 --> 00:43:13,890 S2: we like to to I'll pave my part of the 719 00:43:13,890 --> 00:43:17,930 S2: journey and everything will be cool versus how can I 720 00:43:18,170 --> 00:43:23,090 S2: trust the guide that I have and take the journey 721 00:43:23,090 --> 00:43:25,330 S2: that he has laid out before me, even though I 722 00:43:25,330 --> 00:43:28,450 S2: don't know what that is. And that's what calls me 723 00:43:28,450 --> 00:43:31,170 S2: to trust. Not just trying to control everything. 724 00:43:31,450 --> 00:43:36,610 S1: Yeah. And then there's the anticipatory grief. You know what? 725 00:43:36,610 --> 00:43:39,650 S1: If what's going to happen here that you're going through. 726 00:43:39,690 --> 00:43:41,730 S1: I mean, this is part of your journey is like, 727 00:43:41,730 --> 00:43:43,450 S1: you don't know how you're going to feel after that 728 00:43:43,450 --> 00:43:46,689 S1: radiation today or tomorrow or the next day. You don't 729 00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:48,210 S1: know how much. If you go be able to go 730 00:43:48,210 --> 00:43:49,490 S1: back to class or not. 731 00:43:50,330 --> 00:43:55,330 S2: Yeah. I, I have tapped into something here, Chris. You 732 00:43:55,330 --> 00:43:59,610 S2: might be ruing the day that you had me on. 733 00:43:59,810 --> 00:44:05,630 S2: I literally will show my students the infinity sign. And 734 00:44:05,670 --> 00:44:08,190 S2: on the right that loop is the future, and on 735 00:44:08,190 --> 00:44:11,750 S2: the left is the past. And where they cross is 736 00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:15,149 S2: the present. And we spend a lot of time, either 737 00:44:15,150 --> 00:44:18,430 S2: in the past or in the future, and which means 738 00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:21,390 S2: we spend less time in the present with the people 739 00:44:21,390 --> 00:44:25,109 S2: and where God meets us and the what ifs. The 740 00:44:25,110 --> 00:44:28,950 S2: funny thing about asking what if is we can't anticipate 741 00:44:28,950 --> 00:44:31,630 S2: what God will, what God will do in the what if? 742 00:44:32,070 --> 00:44:36,270 S2: But I can interact with him now. And that's, I think, 743 00:44:36,310 --> 00:44:40,310 S2: the the point of leaning and learning how to trust. 744 00:44:40,310 --> 00:44:45,830 S2: And I'll never again use a static verb. It's like 745 00:44:45,989 --> 00:44:50,670 S2: I will learn trusting, I will lean into trusting. And 746 00:44:50,670 --> 00:44:52,910 S2: that is all I can do as a human. 747 00:44:52,910 --> 00:44:56,270 S1: So trust is not a destination in itself. That's right. 748 00:44:56,310 --> 00:44:59,640 S1: It is a process that you're going through. Are you 749 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:00,600 S1: praying for? Healing? 750 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,400 S2: I boy, that's a hard one to answer. I you know, I, 751 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,520 S2: I don't I know a lot of people are but I, 752 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:19,279 S2: I am praying for presently with my ABBA. That's all 753 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,040 S2: I got. And what that means is what it means. 754 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:25,880 S1: It's enough. Right. 755 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,200 S2: Mhm. Yeah. 756 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,400 S1: Yeah. He's enough. And so are you. And thank you. 757 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,640 S1: I know that people are going to respond to this. 758 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,880 S1: Thank you for being real for being right where you are. 759 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,560 S1: And I think the conversation will help people. I know 760 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:43,919 S1: the book is going to help. A lot of people 761 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:45,600 S1: came out a couple of years ago, so I'm late 762 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,200 S1: to the party. It's called The Seasons of Our Grief. Yeah. 763 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,400 S1: Embracing the journey. Ray, thank you so much for sharing 764 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,040 S1: your heart and your life with us today. 765 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,299 S2: I appreciate the invitation. Oh, I it was a long 766 00:45:58,340 --> 00:46:00,939 S2: time coming, but I will always wait to be able 767 00:46:00,940 --> 00:46:02,220 S2: to spend some time with you. 768 00:46:03,860 --> 00:46:07,540 S1: Oh, and, father, would you, uh, hold Ray really close 769 00:46:07,540 --> 00:46:12,820 S1: and Linda and the extended family through this whole process 770 00:46:13,060 --> 00:46:16,299 S1: so that they would not just embrace or trust that 771 00:46:16,300 --> 00:46:20,180 S1: they would be embracing you and trusting you all the 772 00:46:20,180 --> 00:46:23,820 S1: way through this journey. And we're going to trust in you. 773 00:46:23,940 --> 00:46:28,700 S1: Be trusting in you for the outcome of this. In 774 00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:32,100 S1: the middle of the good stuff that Ray has shared 775 00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:36,140 S1: with us today. In Jesus name, Amen. Doctor Ray Mitch, 776 00:46:36,180 --> 00:46:39,620 S1: our guest today, the seasons of our grief. You can 777 00:46:39,620 --> 00:46:45,180 S1: find it at Chris Fabry lives. She's coming back tomorrow. Rosie. 778 00:46:45,219 --> 00:46:48,540 S1: Right here on Chris Fabry Live. A production of Moody Radio, 779 00:46:48,739 --> 00:46:51,220 S1: a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.