S1: Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
S1: it is my hope that you'll hear something that will
S1: challenge you, grow you up in him, and get you
S1: out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening,
S1: let me take a moment and tell you what this
S1: month's truth tool is. It's the Mediterranean Sea Rules by
S1: Robert Morgan. I talked to him often on the air
S1: because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book,
S1: he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the
S1: book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
S1: we push through the storm, learning to trust in God
S1: and all that he has done for us. It's a
S1: magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
S1: Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
S1: recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
S1: because trust me, every single one of us will find
S1: ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage
S1: through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea
S1: Rules by calling 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58
S1: or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the book.
S1: Click it on, Make Your Gift and we'll send you
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S1: the truth tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much.
S1: And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4: Americans worshiping government over God.
S3: Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S4: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1: Hi, friends. Welcome to in the Market with Janet Parshall.
S1: A very happy Thursday to you. I want to get
S1: right to our first story because I, I have been
S1: struggling with this story all day long. Maybe it's because
S1: it just happened in my town. Maybe it's because there's
S1: an element to the story that most of the media
S1: outlets will not talk about today that I want to
S1: share with you. If you have not heard the story.
S1: A gunman opened fire outside the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington,
S1: DC last night, taking the lives of Yaron Leszczynski and
S1: Sarah Milgram, a soon to be engaged couple who worked
S1: at the Israeli embassy. Israeli embassy beautiful building. Been there
S1: multiple times. According to the Israeli ambassador to the U.S.,
S1: the couple was gunned down in the name of Free Palestine.
S1: Leszczynski had just purchased a ring planned to propose to
S1: Milgram in Jerusalem next week. She is from Kansas. He
S1: is from Jerusalem. The suspect has been identified as 30
S1: year old Elias Rodriguez from Chicago. He went into the
S1: museum and following the shooting, started to shout free, Free
S1: Palestine as authorities arrested him. And then after that, we
S1: begin to learn more about this particular man who has
S1: a very troublesome background in radical groups today. It is
S1: definitely being categorized as a terrorist act. They were shot
S1: at close range while attending a Jewish event at the
S1: Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C. President Trump reacted to
S1: the news early Thursday morning, saying, these horrible D.C. killings
S1: based obviously on anti-Semitism, must end now. Hatred and radicalism
S1: have no place in the U.S.. Condolences. Excuse me. Hatred
S1: and radicalism have no place in the U.S.. Condolences to
S1: the families of the victims. So sad that such things
S1: as this can happen. God bless you all. So here's
S1: the part of the story that you might not get
S1: when the evening news talks about it tonight. And by
S1: the way, again, the more we learn about this man,
S1: we understand that he was aligned with Marxist groups. He
S1: had written a manifesto. He had a long track history
S1: of being a radical activist. And you wonder whether or
S1: not we're starting to connect the dots here that you
S1: cannot shout from the river to the sea on college
S1: campuses all across this country, or stop traffic shouting free,
S1: free Palestine and fail to remember that the Scripture tells
S1: us that within the tongue resides the power of life
S1: and death. So this individual decided he would take matters
S1: into his own hands. CBN news caught up with Vanessa Mistretta.
S1: She happens to be an American who made Aliyah. Now
S1: she's a citizen of Israel. And more importantly to this story.
S1: Not only is she a part of firm which is
S1: the Fellowship of Israel related ministries, she is also part
S1: of Yaron Leszczynski's congregation. He was a messianic believer. I
S1: want you to hear a little bit of that conversation.
S1: Here's Vanessa.
S5: When we hear about this as the messianic body, we
S5: just feel like, I mean, it's one of us. It's
S5: one of our own. I mean, I was putting my
S5: babies down to bed tonight, And you just think about it.
S5: You think like my boys are in the Lord's hands,
S5: and I, I who knows what's going to happen with
S5: any of our lives, you know, and we're here in
S5: a in a war zone right now. So I, you know,
S5: I was in my bomb shelter today as many people
S5: around the area were. We've been multiple times, uh, recently.
S5: And you just know and trust the Lord. We trust
S5: God that God has a plan and a purpose, and
S5: our days are numbered. But that every day that we live,
S5: we want to glorify God and share of his love
S5: and help people to know that we, as hard as
S5: it is, we can have hope in him.
S6: The two Israeli diplomats who were murdered last night in Washington,
S6: DC were Jesus followers. Vanessa Mistretta, who was part of
S6: Yaron Leszczynski's congregation, joins us now from Jerusalem. First off,
S6: I am just I'm just so incredibly sorry, sis. Uh,
S6: how are you processing this horrific news?
S5: Yeah. It was it was devastating to wake up to. Um,
S5: we all woke up to the reality of knowing that
S5: two people were murdered last night in Washington, DC. And
S5: then you wake up to finding out that you know
S5: them and know their family. And it was just it
S5: was really difficult. I have a WhatsApp group with our staff,
S5: with firm, and you had so many people telling stories
S5: about how they grew up with him and know him.
S5: And it's just it's heartbreaking, you know, to recognize you
S5: have this this young guy who was super passionate about
S5: being an advocate for Israel and was in DC, really
S5: to be able to just share about his love for
S5: Israel and who he is as an Israeli. And then,
S5: you know, just out of nowhere gets murdered for being
S5: an an event. It was extremely it's been an extremely
S5: heavy day, and extremely heartbreaking to think about the grief
S5: that his parents and his siblings must be experiencing and
S5: all of his friends. And it's just it's really, really overwhelming.
S1: Messianic believers. Now there's another clip. I'm not going to
S1: get it into this segment. I'm going to play it
S1: when we come back on the other side of the great,
S1: the break. But I want you to understand that now
S1: Pro-hamas groups are celebrating this. Iran backed trolls are hailing
S1: the barbaric murder of these two Israeli embassy staffers as
S1: a heroic attack, claiming it was a justified response to
S1: the war in Gaza. So the Pro-hamas Gaza Now media
S1: group is celebrating Elias Rodriguez, the man who pulled the trigger,
S1: who is now deemed to be a domestic terrorist. Who
S1: will be, I'm quite sure, when it's all said and done,
S1: charged federally, and they will enhance the penalty by charging
S1: it as a hate crime as well. So we are
S1: far from done with this, but they're saying that he's
S1: an ally against Zionism and this Gaza now, which is
S1: a pro-hamas group, has welcomed the violent attack against this
S1: particular couple. Remember, Iran is from Jerusalem. Sarah came from Kansas.
S1: They both worked at the Israeli embassy. They were going
S1: to Israel next week, where he was going to visit
S1: his family, and he was going to propose to Sarah
S1: had just purchased the ring once he got over there
S1: into Israel. But no, no, no to the Pro-hamas Gaza
S1: now group quote in a moment of courage, this is
S1: Elias Rodriguez there saying in a moment of courage, he
S1: decided to make his voice heard and boldly confront the killers.
S1: They wrote that on telegram. They were referring, obviously, to
S1: the embassy workers. And by the way, Sarah. Sarah was
S1: in the process of trying to get more humanitarian aid
S1: into Gaza. Well, of course they're not. When you're blinded
S1: by hatred. And this is a spiritual blindness that the
S1: alphabet soup media cannot possibly understand. You were failing to
S1: understand that what Sarah was trying to do was to
S1: help bridge this problem, and wanted to bring not less
S1: but more humanitarian aid into Gaza. In the meantime, this
S1: individual has a manifesto. The federal agents are going through
S1: this now, and it's stunning. I mean, we just we
S1: we this is not Berlin in the 1930s. This is
S1: not in outside of a music camp. On September 7th, 2023,
S1: these are the streets of Washington, D.C., gunned down for
S1: one reason and one reason only. They were Jewish, but
S1: they were Jewish believers in Yeshua. And today, they're with
S1: him back after this. When the storms of life hit
S1: with hurricane force, how do you respond? This month's truth
S1: tool is the Mediterranean Sea Rules, where Robert Morgan writes
S1: how God will redeem our tragedies for his purposes. Don't
S1: just survive the storms. Learn to serve God in the
S1: midst of them. As for your copy of the Mediterranean
S1: Sea Rules, when you give a gift of any amount
S1: in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's eight. 77.
S1: Janet 58. Or go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S7: It is deeply.
S5: Deeply shocking to me that this happened on American soil.
S5: You know, like I said, we're in a war zone.
S5: So my friend's son was killed in Gaza, and I
S5: have another friend whose nephew was killed, you know, right
S5: after the war started. And we're still in an active war.
S5: So people are dying here. It's part of that when
S5: you realize that people are dying around the world because
S5: they're Jewish, because of anti-Semitism. It it's a whole nother level.
S5: You know, I as an American immigrant, it it it
S5: concerns me for all of my friends and family who
S5: are still in America and around the world, who are Jewish.
S5: And just because they're Jewish, they have to walk outside
S5: and be aware. I mean, I have to think about
S5: that when I travel with my kids and they call
S5: me Emma and they call my husband ABBA. And I think, like,
S5: who's listening? And what does this actually mean for the
S5: reality of people around the world? And it's it's so
S5: it's on one hand it's terrifying because you think about,
S5: you know, you hear about what's happened obviously in our history,
S5: but then you realize, like, this is our reality today.
S5: And so what is happening? What are we doing about it.
S5: And it's just it's hard. It's really hard because this
S5: reality here in Israel is complicated. And I know it's complicated.
S5: There's a lot of hurting people here in Israel. There's
S5: a lot of hurting people in Gaza. There's a lot
S5: of hurting people all around. But at the end of
S5: the day, we're not walking around killing people just because
S5: they're Palestinian. You know, we're not going to different places
S5: around the world and attacking other people just because of
S5: who they are. But it's not about freeing. I mean,
S5: this is just a it's complicated. And so I'm not
S5: going to get super political. But I think just the
S5: hard thing about it is these people died on American
S5: soil just because they're Jewish, you know? So it's just
S5: it's discouraging in so many ways. And as a believer
S5: in Yeshua, I know the end of the story, and
S5: I know that God has a plan and a purpose,
S5: and he's faithful to his word, and he's faithful to Israel,
S5: and he's faithful to us as Jewish people. But walking
S5: it out and walking out, the devastation of what this
S5: means for our people and the fear that it potentially
S5: brings on our people around the world is hard. It's
S5: really difficult to to live in that and to carry that.
S5: And we want to speak hope and love and life
S5: at the same time. We're holding the tension of grief
S5: and despair and and fear. And so, you know, how
S5: do we balance and handle the reality of not walking
S5: in fear and at the same time, seeing your friends
S5: literally die just because they're they're they're the same thing
S5: I am I'm, I'm Jewish. What if I was there?
S1: Mm. Vanessa mistretta. She is a part of Yaron Leszczynski's
S1: messianic Congregation in Jerusalem. You're not going to hear this
S1: in the alphabet soup. I wanted you to hear it.
S1: Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
S1: Please pray for Sarah and Iran's families. They're shocked, they're stunned.
S1: They're grieving. And you can hear the fear that's worked
S1: its way through the community. This balancing here is Vanessa,
S1: who believes in Yeshua, knows that he is her protector.
S1: He is her Savior. He is the one who is
S1: Lord over all and yet balancing every day, that day
S1: to day fear. Am I going to be killed simply
S1: because I am Jewish? Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
S1: That was a stunning event in Washington. I needed you
S1: to hear the rest of the story, because that's really
S1: the true story behind all of this. Let me switch
S1: gears now and go to a good news story. And boy,
S1: this really is a good news story. I am thrilled
S1: to have John Mack back on the program again. He's
S1: a founding partner of Mouch and Baker. He's been an
S1: attorney for over 40 years, and he represents a whole
S1: lot of churches and ministries. And he got involved helping
S1: a bunch of students in the Chicago public school system.
S1: And that's exactly what we're going to talk about now.
S1: A victory. John, you and I talked about this before
S1: this settlement came down. But boy, there's an update that
S1: we need to talk about before we get to where
S1: we are today. And congratulations in advance. Let's talk about
S1: the background of this case. What were the facts? Why
S1: was there a legal action, a class action lawsuit started
S1: in the first place?
S8: Well, we were contacted by members of parents and a
S8: substitute teacher from the Chicago Public Schools about this religion
S8: being taught in eight schools, eight high schools or seven
S8: high schools in the junior high in Chicago. And parents
S8: were upset. Students were upset. They'd come to realize that
S8: it was Hinduism in disguise. Some of them talked about
S8: it as being demonology, and this was being practiced in
S8: the schools under the supervision of the mentors by the
S8: David Lynch Foundation, who were teaching really Hinduism. It was
S8: disguised Hinduism. But as we peel back the onion, we
S8: saw more and more how it was the demonic invocation,
S8: demonic meditation, mantras, uh, worship, all of which involved these
S8: students who were who were minors at the time. So
S8: I looked at I could hardly believe that this was happening, um,
S8: because it was so blatant. But that's what brought the lawsuit.
S8: We had several lawsuits that we brought on behalf of, uh, individuals.
S8: And finally we decided it should be a class action.
S8: So we, uh, asked the court to approve that. And
S8: eventually it was approved as a class action on behalf
S8: of 773 Of the students who had been forced to
S8: go through the Hindu worship experience and participate in it.
S3: Wow.
S1: 773 now you just said something important, and I want
S1: to make sure my friends picked up on it. So
S1: this wasn't merely an exposure to a different worldview. This
S1: was and this is an important word as I understand it,
S1: in your world, this was coercion that the kids had
S1: to participate in what was being touted as transcendental meditation,
S1: by the way, that's been around for a long period
S1: of time, but it really is steeped in eastern mysticism, Hinduism.
S1: And the kids didn't seem to have much of an
S1: opportunity to say thanks, but no thanks. Did they go
S1: into this thinking we're probably going to have a couple
S1: of parents who are going to push back? What about
S1: the kids who say, you know, this violates they might
S1: not use these words, but we're acting out on the
S1: belief that they had their own sincerely held set of beliefs,
S1: and this was violative of what they believed. But there
S1: didn't seem to be any recognition of that. I find
S1: this interesting, John, because we've worshiped at the altar for
S1: so long of dai, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion,
S1: that one would have thought that if you were really
S1: and truly a subscriber to that particular principle, you're not
S1: going to coerce someone to have to participate in a
S1: religious practice that's antithetical to what you believe. So when
S1: we come back, if you pick it up at that
S1: point and then remember, this ends as a good news story.
S1: John is very much responsible for this. And let me
S1: tell you also, John's written an absolutely fabulous book. It's
S1: called Paul on Trial The Book of Acts as a
S1: defense of Christianity. We've got a copy of that book
S1: in our house. It's just fabulous. And it was a
S1: finalist for the Evangelical Book of the year at one
S1: point in time. So check that out. You can find
S1: it wherever books are sold. But when we come back,
S1: we're going to continue to herald this great victory where
S1: parents and children were told, uh, don't have to participate
S1: in this sorry, David Lynch Foundation hit the road, Jack,
S1: back after this. We're visiting with John Mauck, who is
S1: the man behind the class action lawsuit claiming that Chicago
S1: high School students were coerced into practicing a Hindu ritual
S1: invoking the religion's deities. And now there has been a settlement,
S1: and we're excited to tell you about that in a minute.
S1: But I want to go back and have you understand
S1: how just violative this was. So, John, what's interesting when
S1: you go back and review the facts of the case here,
S1: it was like it was a Pavlovian dog's response to
S1: the students. They got rewarded with pizza and snacks. If
S1: they acted like they were representing the program, they got
S1: sent to the dean's office. If they declined to participate.
S1: Did nobody think that they weren't going to hit the
S1: tripwire of coercion here?
S8: Well, they didn't start out knowing that this was a religion.
S8: They started out being told, this will just relieve your stress,
S8: and there's no religion at all full of lies and deceit.
S8: Sign this permission slip. Do not tell your parents, especially
S8: if they're religious about this. And Then 1415 year old
S8: kids would be pulled out of class, taken to a
S8: darkened room and said, this is just a ceremony honoring
S8: the founders of TM. But in fact it was Hindu
S8: incantations and invocations, uh, spoken in Sanskrit. And then the
S8: students were were sucked into, uh, accepting it by, by
S8: things like one student was given an orange and said,
S8: put that in front of the image in front of you.
S8: That was an illuminated picture of a guru. Another student
S8: was told to kneel, and she was a Christian, and
S8: she was in a bind because they said, if you
S8: don't participate, it could affect your eligibility for the basketball team.
S1: Um, wow.
S8: So, uh, that's coercion. And she she decided to lie,
S8: but she called her pastor right after that. She lied
S8: and said, I have a bad knee. And so she
S8: didn't have to kneel. But, uh, the pastor raised an
S8: objection and people were objecting. But the Lynch Foundation, which
S8: was running this and those in the school board, uh,
S8: ignored for a long time all of the individual complaints.
S8: And if somebody really wanted out, they could get out. But, uh,
S8: most of the students were forced by social pressure.
S1: Um.
S8: Teachers, um, not wanting to have their grades affected as
S8: well as the rewards you mentioned. So, uh, the deceit
S8: and the coercion, uh, went hand in hand.
S1: Wow. Wow. And again, there's there's an inequitable distribution of
S1: power when the teacher says you're not going to make
S1: the basketball team unless you do this. There's no level
S1: playing ground for the students there by any stretch of
S1: the imagination. By the way, I want to tell our
S1: friends that if that were David Lynch kind of rings
S1: a little note in your head. Yes. We're talking about
S1: that filmmaker who started this organization to get transcendental Meditation
S1: into the schools. And, John, you know, it's interesting. There
S1: was a case that the Supreme Court dealt with that
S1: had to do with TM before. So I'm surprised that
S1: Chicago would have just spread their arms so wide and
S1: embraced this under the guise of trying to bring TM
S1: into the school and we're going to have better peacemaking, blah, blah, blah,
S1: and all the other stuff that they were selling.
S8: What happened is in the 1980, TM was established in
S8: all of the public schools of new Jersey, and, uh,
S8: Christians sued. And there was a there was a big trial.
S8: And the judge ruled, yes, this is a religion. It
S8: shouldn't be allowed. Uh, and the Third Circuit Court of
S8: Appeals unanimously, Approved that judgment, affirmed it, and it did
S8: not go to the Supreme Court. But it was there
S8: on record. But the Chicago Public Schools either ignored that
S8: and just went ahead, maybe because it was 40 years ago.
S8: But but the practice of transcendental meditation is very controlled
S8: of the Sanskrit invocations of the deities is you have
S8: to say that perfectly. If you're going to be an
S8: instructor and you have to give the mantras and the
S8: mantras are secret, all of that stuff is very uniform.
S8: And it was ruled to be a religion by a
S8: court of appeals, and it was ruled to be a religion,
S8: in our case by the district court in here in Chicago. So. um. Yeah,
S8: they they're starting up all over.
S1: Um, yeah, yeah.
S8: The, the publication we got from the publicity we got
S8: from this, uh, a lawsuit. I got a call from
S8: a woman in Georgia and said they're doing it in
S8: public schools in Georgia. They're calling it mindfulness. Um, they
S8: have all of these, uh, deceitful, deceptive things in Chicago.
S8: They called it quiet time. But you peel it back
S8: and you, you feel it. You see that it's, uh, children, uh,
S8: memorizing mantras, which are the names of Hindu deities and
S8: 15 minutes twice a day during the regular school hours,
S8: all things would stop. It's time to meditate down the lights,
S8: start thinking your mantra and repeating the mantra in your mind.
S3: Yeah.
S8: And that's that's coercion right there.
S1: 100%. And one of the reasons, John, why I'm glad
S1: we're having this conversation is because you are talking to
S1: a national audience. And if you think this is a
S1: one off in Chicago, you're wrong. But if you're thinking
S1: school of doing this, let me tell you how the
S1: story ends. The Chicago Public Schools and the David Lynch
S1: Foundation for Consciousness-based Education and World Peace, each of them,
S1: they have to pony up 1.3 million apiece, making it
S1: a total of a $2.6 million settlement in favor of
S1: the students. Thank you, John, for making that happen. There's
S1: a reason we're told to look well to the ways
S1: of our household parents. You are watchmen on the wall.
S1: Don't look away. Thank you, John Beck. After this. If
S1: what you hear on in the market with Janet Parshall
S1: encourages you, enlightens you, engages you, and equips you, I
S1: want to ask you to become a partial partner today.
S1: This program depends on the faithful and ongoing support of
S1: listeners just like you. By supporting this program on a regular,
S1: ongoing monthly basis, you'll receive several benefits that only my
S1: partners receive. So please call today eight 7758 or go
S1: online to in the market with Janet Parshall. So let
S1: me ask you a question. Do you have a biblical worldview?
S1: You can talk among yourselves, use a lifeline, call a friend.
S1: Do you know what you believe and why you believe it?
S1: And how solid do you think your biblical worldview is? Well,
S1: there's nobody like Doctor George Barne as far as I'm concerned.
S1: Not only is his name synonymous with excellent research, but
S1: this is a man who cares passionately that we are
S1: raising the next generation to have a biblical worldview. And
S1: in the process of pursuing that passion and training up
S1: young champions for the Lord, he is doing the church
S1: capital C universal a big favor. He is telling us
S1: that we are drifting from the having that biblical worldview,
S1: that so much of it goes right back to what
S1: we're being taught from the word, from our shepherds, and
S1: whether or not we're practicing applied Christianity and holding fast
S1: to that which is good. So as a result of that,
S1: he has been doing some superb work at the Cultural
S1: Research Center. This is an arm of Arizona Christian University,
S1: and he's been doing world review, worldview inventories, and I
S1: can't wait for them to come out. I really am
S1: passionate about every single one that comes out. And I've
S1: asked Doctor Barnett to join us today to talk about
S1: one of the latest. I understand there's even one after this,
S1: but I want to talk about number five, which is
S1: a survey that reveals significant shifts in faith, allegiance and
S1: growing confusion about moral truth. That last part in particular
S1: has me concerned because this program is called In the market,
S1: because the whole point is to get you out into
S1: the marketplace of ideas. How are you not going to
S1: be Colossians taken captive through vain and hollow philosophies predicated
S1: on this world, rather than on the Word of God
S1: if you don't know the plumb line of absolute truth.
S1: So exactly what did Doctor Barna find out? Doctor Barna,
S1: the warmest of welcomes. I'm always interested. It's not usually
S1: really good news, but it really is important news that
S1: you share with us. So I want to thank you
S1: for that, if you can. This is number five. Just
S1: a quick word or two about the methodology, how you
S1: get this information. And I don't think I have Doctor
S1: Barna I'll try one more time. Doctor Barna, are you there?
S1: We'll see if we can get him back on the air.
S1: In the meantime, let me lead you to a couple
S1: of things. If you'll go to the information page on
S1: our website in the market with Janet Parshall. Click on
S1: the red box that says Program Details and Audio. It
S1: gets you over to what is, in essence, the daily
S1: library for the program. It'll give you a longer bio
S1: of our guest, a photograph of who they are, a
S1: link to their website, and then there's always a resource
S1: that's tied into the topic we're discussing Doctor Barner's latest book,
S1: which speaks right into his passion about building a biblical worldview,
S1: is called Raising Spiritual Champions, nurturing your child's mind, heart,
S1: and Soul. So this is important, Mom and Dad, because
S1: we have this very precious and important position of helping
S1: our children get that solid biblical worldview. So raising spiritual champions,
S1: by the way, if you're interested in following all of
S1: the work done at the Cultural Research Center, I have
S1: a link to that as well, so that you can
S1: track every single time one of these new reports comes out,
S1: we have Doctor Barna back with us again. Doctor Barna,
S1: thank you so much. The question I was asking was,
S1: tell me just a wee bit, if you can, about
S1: the methodology. How do you get people's opinions in the
S1: first place? What's your pool?
S9: Yeah, well, it's the adult population of America. And so
S9: we have a way of reaching every household in America.
S9: When you reach the household, then you, you know, have
S9: a process you go through to try to figure out
S9: what person in the household. You want to speak to,
S9: you randomize that, and then you conduct the interview. And
S9: we know that we can probably keep people engaged in
S9: the interviews for up to 15, maybe 17 minutes. And
S9: so we try to ask as many relevant questions as
S9: we can within that period of time.
S1: How do the students ever get to do this? Or
S1: is this a different firm that does it?
S9: Uh, no, we don't have the students do this. We
S9: we have professionals that are doing this.
S1: And and there is an art to this. I ask
S1: that just because I was thinking, boy, it'd be a
S1: wake up call for the students, would it not in
S1: so many cases to hear some of these responses from individuals.
S9: Well, you know, what we do with our students at
S9: Arizona Christian is every year they do the worldview inventory
S9: as well. And so at the beginning of every academic year,
S9: they do it. And then before we'll hand them a diploma,
S9: they do it one final time, a fifth time. We're
S9: tracking their worldview their entire time when they're on campus.
S9: This and we use that to look at our courses.
S9: Doing the job is our faculty. The faculty we need.
S9: Are these the right students? Do we need to recruit
S9: different types of students? I mean, all of these kinds
S9: of questions, we have conversations all throughout the year trying
S9: to I mean, because I mean, the the differentiation point
S9: for Arizona Christian is that we are a worldview development university.
S9: That's why we exist. We don't care whether or not
S9: you get a job. I mean, forgive me for saying
S9: that it's important, but but I mean, the most important
S9: thing is that when you get into the marketplace, you've
S9: got the goods to interact with people about God's truth,
S9: God's ways, God's principles, God's purposes. And that's why you're
S9: on the planet. It's not so that you make a
S9: lot of money and buy a big house. It's so
S9: that you represent and advance his kingdom. And the only
S9: way you can do that is if you're a disciple
S9: of Jesus. And the only way you're going to be
S9: a disciple of Jesus is if you think like him,
S9: well guess what? The only way you think like him
S9: is if you believe like him. Yeah, we do what
S9: we believe. And so we want to make sure that
S9: all of our students and ultimately everybody in the country
S9: is able to think like Jesus so they can live
S9: like Jesus, so they can serve him well.
S1: Amen. Boy, am I glad I asked you that question.
S1: This goes far beyond Arizona Christian University. This is so
S1: important for every single one of us. All right, now,
S1: the troubling part. And by the way, again, I find
S1: your your information so rich because it's so applicable. Just
S1: my first response is always just from the world of evangelism.
S1: For example, you pointed out in number five of the
S1: American Worldview Inventory report for this year that there is
S1: now objective fact. Okay, John Adams, facts are stubborn things.
S1: The fact is, Christianity is in decline. Talk to me
S1: about that. By what percentage? And if it's in decline,
S1: are we seeing an uptick in other worldviews?
S9: Yeah, we are actually I mean, if we go back
S9: to as recent as 2020, you know, just about 5
S9: or 6 years ago, what we found was 72% of
S9: adults described themselves as Christians. Now that's dropped to currently 66%.
S9: That's a six percentage point drop. That means about 15
S9: million people who used to think of themselves as Christians
S9: no longer do so. And in that vacuum, what we've
S9: had is a 56% rise in Buddhism, a 21% rise
S9: in Judaism, 12% rise in Islam, 39% increase in all
S9: non-Christian faiths. And there's also been an increase in terms
S9: of those people who say they have no faith from
S9: 20 to 23%. So, I mean, we're clearly losing ground here.
S9: I'm not a big advocate of saying, oh, we know
S9: what's going on with the church capital C in America
S9: by measuring how many people call themselves Christians. I like
S9: to look deeper and figure out, yeah, what does it
S9: mean to be a Christian? Because when we ask people
S9: what it means, what they say, oh yeah, I'm a Christian.
S9: What does that mean to you? It means I'm a
S9: good person. And thank you for playing.
S1: Yeah, right. Exactly right. Wow. All right, so a couple
S1: of questions. I find this fascinating in the other non-Christian
S1: where you saw an uptick, it was 4% in 2025,
S1: but that's an uptick of 77%. What constitutes that category?
S9: These are people who say that either they don't believe
S9: that there's any God. They don't believe that religion has
S9: anything to do with a person's life. They, uh, you know,
S9: don't believe in any existing religious faith. They don't participate
S9: in what they're doing. So that's all those groups, what
S9: sometimes would be called agnostics, sometimes called atheists. And those
S9: are different groups, obviously. But then also this more recent
S9: group that a lot of people refer to as the
S9: nones or the group that we measure, which we call
S9: the don'ts. Those who don't believe that God exists don't
S9: know if God exists, don't care if God exists.
S1: Wow. Now, I know you crunch the numbers, but, uh,
S1: you you have the name doctor in front of your
S1: name on purpose because you've done your homework and you
S1: love research. I'm fascinated that out of all the categories,
S1: we see a 56% uptick in those who have been
S1: drawn to or attracted to Buddhism. Doctor Barnett, what do
S1: you think is inherent in that worldview that's gotten greater subscribers?
S9: It's the most comfortable worldview available to us Americans. Americans
S9: want comfort. You know, they want to feel good. They
S9: want to feel good about themselves. They want to feel
S9: good about the world. They want to feel that everything
S9: is going to be peaceful and harmonious. And that's the
S9: type of thing that Buddhism pushes. And so I think
S9: that has a lot to do with the attraction, because
S9: you see so much of that happening with young people.
S1: Wow. So the next part, and this is a ten
S1: page report and I have a link to it, by
S1: the way, on my website, so you can read this
S1: for your own. And then I want you to get
S1: so attracted that you're going to follow what the Cultural
S1: Research Center does with every single one of their inventory reports.
S1: This is one of a myriad of reports that are
S1: out there. So talk to me about because I know
S1: words are important, particularly when you're doing surveys. How did
S1: you define absolute moral truth? I think it's important to
S1: get that definition first.
S9: That there are things that are factually, empirically, tangibly accurate
S9: and definable and defensible. It's not based on feelings, it's
S9: not based on assumptions, but that there is a way
S9: of showing or demonstrating or proving that these things are true.
S9: And and then we relate that to morality that is
S9: trying to understand what, uh, what is right or wrong,
S9: because that's what morality refers to. So when we talk
S9: about absolute moral truth, we're talking about things that are unchanging.
S9: They're demonstrably, demonstrably true. And they're accurate for a person's life.
S1: Okay. So having beautifully defined that I'm going to leave
S1: it hanging. And when we come back, I'd love to
S1: see what your survey revealed in terms of that. I mean,
S1: these are self-evident truths. If I can borrow the words
S1: from the founders. And one would think that some things
S1: are inarguably true, transcendent, apply to all people in all times,
S1: in all places. But given the variance of worldviews that
S1: we talked about a moment ago, that means that truth
S1: is probably in the dock and up for definition. And
S1: it goes right back to the idea that man does
S1: what's right in his own eyes, becoming their own arbiter
S1: of truth. So fascinating stuff. This is just number five
S1: for this year. It's the 2025 American Worldview Inventory. This
S1: is report number five, growing confusion about moral truth and
S1: shifts in faith allegiance. Fascinating stuff. Back after this. We're
S1: talking with Doctor George Barna, who's the director of research
S1: and co-founder of the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University.
S1: Marvelous author as well. Let me just plug his latest book,
S1: Raising Spiritual Champions Nurturing Your Child's Heart, mind and Soul.
S1: You know, the data on these worldview inventories could be
S1: different if you and I were looking well to the
S1: ways of our household and doing just what the title
S1: implies raising spiritual champions. So the American Worldview Inventory is
S1: something that the Cultural Research Center puts out on a
S1: regular basis. We're talking about report number five, which talks about,
S1: among other things, confusion and drift when it comes to
S1: moral truths. So you just gave the definition just before
S1: the break, Doctor Barnett, of what moral truth is now
S1: based on the variances in the religious worldviews. I'm expecting
S1: some very interesting numbers on here. But let me start
S1: with Christians. Surely we're at 100% in believing in absolute
S1: moral truth.
S9: Yeah, that'd be great. Um, unfortunately, no, we're not we're
S9: not that distinct Inked from the rest of the culture.
S9: There are a lot of different truth measures that we
S9: have in this report and the subsequent report, where we
S9: compare different segments of the Christian body, let's say theologically identified,
S9: born again Christians compared to self-identified Christians, compared to Catholics,
S9: compared to Protestants, compared to subgroups within the Protestant community, evangelicals,
S9: mainline Protestants, Pentecostals. And yes, there are differences. But the
S9: key thing to understand is that wherever the culture comes
S9: out on these kinds of measures, we're only a few
S9: percentage points different on virtually everything that we're measuring, with
S9: the exception of a single group, single faith group that
S9: we measure. And that's a group we label integrated disciples.
S9: Those are the 4% of the adult population who have
S9: a biblical worldview. They are consistently, radically different. And of course,
S9: their answers veer toward whatever the scriptures teach, but they
S9: are the only spiritual segment that we find that's consistently
S9: different from the national norms.
S1: Wow. That is stunning. Unbelievable. You have a section in
S1: the report that I thought was interesting as to where
S1: people would turn to get truth. Moral truth. 59% for Christians. Again,
S1: not 100%. But again, part of that is probably tied
S1: back to how you define the word Christian. But what
S1: I found very problematic is that if you look at Mormonism,
S1: Islam and Judaism, that had the same percentage point as
S1: Friedrich Nietzsche and Plato. And so it's I mean, these
S1: are bizarre comparisons. Wicca gets thrown in there, secular humanism
S1: gets in there. L Ron Hubbard gets thrown in there
S1: from Scientology. I mean, absolutely amazing. So if you don't
S1: know what truth is, obviously you're not going to be
S1: able to identify what a correct or incorrect source is
S1: for truth as well. So there's a corollary. There is
S1: there not?
S9: There is. And the other thing to keep in mind
S9: related to this is that these are sources that people
S9: identify as potential sources of truth. But there are a
S9: couple of things that are vitally important to understand. One
S9: is that most people do not turn to the Bible
S9: consistently for moral truth, absolute or otherwise. They will turn
S9: to it when it's comfortable, when it's available, when they
S9: think it's going to tell them what they want to hear,
S9: or whatever it may be. There are a whole range
S9: of reasons that we uncovered, but by and large, people
S9: do not perceive the Bible to be a source of
S9: absolute moral truth. The other thing that's vitally important to
S9: recognize is that most Americans, more than four out of
S9: every five adults in America, are very comfortable picking and
S9: choosing from a variety of sources of what they may
S9: consider to be truth. So when we're talking about significant numbers,
S9: you know, millions of Americans saying that they believe sources
S9: of truth include the Book of Mormon, the Five Dialogues
S9: by Plato, the Book of Shadows from Wicca, and a
S9: whole list that we have there. What that means is
S9: that at any given moment, Christian or not, in their orientation,
S9: they may choose to turn to some of these other
S9: sources because they know that they're either available or they
S9: may have things that interest them. And because they don't
S9: believe there's any such thing as absolute moral truth, all
S9: of these sources of truth are perceived to be of
S9: equal value. And that's mind blowing.
S1: You're unbelievable. Now, let me just pull over to the
S1: side of the road and ask you a philosophical question.
S1: This has a radical impact, it seems to me, on
S1: the world of evangelism. 20 years ago, we could have said,
S1: here's the truth, and his name is truth. And someone
S1: would say, that's it. That's the truth I've been looking for.
S1: If you believe that, you can pull truth from multiple sources.
S1: And another point that you make in your observations was
S1: two out of three believed truth is conditional. Well, that
S1: means situational ethics. It doesn't. Truth no longer applies to
S1: all people in all times and all places. The situation
S1: means that any means whatsoever is justifiable. As long as
S1: you get to your desired end and you can make
S1: it up as you go along. If I can put
S1: it in common parlance, wow, that's going to have an
S1: impact and being able to share the truth of the gospel,
S1: does it not?
S9: Absolutely. And it's one of the reasons why, you know,
S9: when I'm working with students or any group at a
S9: church or whatever, I tell them, look, you have got
S9: to start to see yourself not only as a disciple
S9: of Jesus, that's your identity, but the tools that you
S9: take into the marketplace have to include the capacity to
S9: defend the gospel. And in order to do that, you've
S9: got to be able to engage people in Socratic conversations
S9: where you're not assuming that they're coming from the same
S9: base of knowledge and logic as you are, but what
S9: you're trying to do, first and foremost is establish a relationship.
S9: Ask them what they believe and then start digging into
S9: it really well. Why do you believe that? You know,
S9: how did you come to that conclusion? What experiences have
S9: you had that made you think maybe that was the
S9: right way? Have you seen anything that's different than I mean,
S9: have at your disposal, ready to roll with all of
S9: these kinds of questions that will enable you to not
S9: show the person how, how wrong they are, but to
S9: get the person to recognize how wrong they are because
S9: they hear their own answers and they realize, wow, that's
S9: not too smart, is it? I can't really defend that.
S9: Let's talk about this. And that's exactly where you want
S9: to go.
S1: Wow. And it seems to me also it behooves the
S1: believer to be a little more culturally engaged. This is
S1: a act 17 thing, it seems to me. Paul walks
S1: around for Athens for a year and a half before
S1: he gives that address at the Areopagus, and so his
S1: observations are. They subscribe to all of these multitudinous worldviews.
S1: I see you are a very religious people. If we
S1: don't start with the idea that for the cause of
S1: the cross and the message of the gospel, we are
S1: going to engage, then we don't do our homework. We're
S1: not prepared at all. So I think it's important for
S1: us to have some semblance of you don't have to
S1: know it all, but I think I want to know
S1: where someone's coming from. You know, I see you're a
S1: very religious people so that I can ask the questions
S1: that you just gave as a perfect example and listen
S1: with the ears on my heart there. There's so much
S1: richness in your reports, Doctor Barnett. I can't thank you
S1: enough for them. So let me get my friends to
S1: do two things. I want you to click on to
S1: the Cultural Research Center. Start reading every one of these.
S1: They're not written in such a highfalutin, high education manner
S1: that you and I can understand. And they're written so
S1: that the numbers are there for you to understand. And
S1: it's a wake up call first and foremost for your house,
S1: second for you. Third of all, when you go out
S1: into the mission field, which is that spot right outside
S1: your front door. Also get Doctor Barnes's book Raising Spiritual Champions.
S1: Thank you, Doctor Barnett. Thank you friends. We'll see you
S1: next time.