1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,720 S1: Let me ask you a question. Do you know the 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: kind of love God has extended to us? Well, if 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: you've received that love, you're to give it away to 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,079 S1: those you like and those you might consider your enemies. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,160 S1: Is there a person in your life right now you 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,640 S1: have struggled to love the way God has loved you? 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,840 S1: What does that kind of love look like in the 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,920 S1: situation you're in right now? Today on Chris Fabry Live, 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,960 S1: that question has haunted this program since its inception. We've 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,000 S1: asked this so many times what does love look like here? 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,720 S1: Our guest today at the Radio Backyard Fence is taking 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,400 S1: a hard look at the biblical injunction to love one 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,080 S1: another and what that means. And he references what he 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,760 S1: calls tough agape. What is that and how do you 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,760 S1: extend it to other people? It's going to be a 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,779 S1: practical conversation, a biblical one, but also a really big 17 00:01:00,780 --> 00:01:05,180 S1: challenge because that person or persons you're thinking about right 18 00:01:05,180 --> 00:01:08,740 S1: now might be really difficult to love. Well, in fact, 19 00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:12,060 S1: Doctor Winifred Neely says it's impossible to love the way 20 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:15,860 S1: God does unless he empowers us. Let's talk about it 21 00:01:15,860 --> 00:01:17,660 S1: straight ahead on the program. From the heart to the 22 00:01:17,660 --> 00:01:21,460 S1: heart for the heart, online at Chris fabry.org. Let me 23 00:01:21,459 --> 00:01:24,140 S1: thank our team, Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. Trish 24 00:01:24,140 --> 00:01:27,699 S1: is our producer. Lisa is helping out. Josh is in 25 00:01:27,700 --> 00:01:30,060 S1: the chair. And thank you to those of you who 26 00:01:30,060 --> 00:01:33,300 S1: listen to our celebration yesterday of 100 Years of Moody Radio. 27 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:36,820 S1: July 28th was the anniversary of us going on the 28 00:01:36,819 --> 00:01:40,380 S1: air for the first time. None of us here were 29 00:01:40,380 --> 00:01:43,500 S1: there back then, but you know what I'm saying. And 30 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:45,780 S1: many of you gave a gift yesterday. Thank you so 31 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:48,700 S1: much for your support. We are sending everyone who gets 32 00:01:48,700 --> 00:01:51,060 S1: in touch a copy of the book that we've been 33 00:01:51,060 --> 00:01:54,980 S1: talking about all month. The pictures, the stories, the lives changed. 34 00:01:55,260 --> 00:01:57,660 S1: It's a thrill for us to put this in your hands. 35 00:01:57,900 --> 00:01:59,890 S1: And we only have three days left. So if you 36 00:01:59,890 --> 00:02:05,210 S1: haven't given and you want a copy, go online. Eight. Six. Six. Nine. Five. 37 00:02:05,250 --> 00:02:09,530 S1: Faber or Chris fabriclive.org. The book is. This is Moody 38 00:02:09,530 --> 00:02:13,370 S1: radio 100 years proclaiming the gospel. That's our. Thank you 39 00:02:13,370 --> 00:02:15,810 S1: for only three more days. Let us hear from you 40 00:02:15,810 --> 00:02:26,450 S1: today at Chris fabry.org, or call that number (866) 953-2279. Something 41 00:02:26,450 --> 00:02:29,050 S1: good always happens when we're joined by Doctor Winifred Neely. 42 00:02:29,050 --> 00:02:31,649 S1: I say that every time, and it's true, something great 43 00:02:31,650 --> 00:02:34,290 S1: has happened here because his wife Stephanie is with us 44 00:02:34,290 --> 00:02:37,010 S1: in the in the control room. Doctor Neely is a 45 00:02:37,010 --> 00:02:40,850 S1: retired vice president, academic, dean of Moody Theological Seminary, and 46 00:02:40,850 --> 00:02:45,329 S1: professor emeritus of Old Testament biblical interpretation and biblical preaching. 47 00:02:45,650 --> 00:02:49,369 S1: He has a pastor's heart, missionaries heart, and we've talked 48 00:02:49,370 --> 00:02:53,090 S1: about his book, How to Overcome Worry several times here. 49 00:02:53,330 --> 00:02:56,090 S1: His new work is out. I'm pleased to say it's 50 00:02:56,090 --> 00:03:01,830 S1: a love to live by rediscovering agape love in Scripture. 51 00:03:01,830 --> 00:03:03,829 S1: Doctor Neely, welcome back. How are you doing today? 52 00:03:03,870 --> 00:03:07,390 S2: I'm pretty good, my friend Chris. Good to be here. 53 00:03:07,389 --> 00:03:08,470 S2: Glad to be here with you. 54 00:03:08,510 --> 00:03:10,430 S1: It's great to have Stephanie with you too. You guys 55 00:03:10,430 --> 00:03:12,790 S1: going out on a date today after the program? 56 00:03:12,870 --> 00:03:16,230 S2: Well, I would say that every day is a date, 57 00:03:16,230 --> 00:03:18,630 S2: but then I might get in trouble when I get 58 00:03:18,630 --> 00:03:22,430 S2: home for saying that, because that's not exactly the case. 59 00:03:22,430 --> 00:03:24,869 S2: But no, we're just hanging out. We're just hanging out. 60 00:03:24,910 --> 00:03:27,950 S2: I'm glad you're doing it. Being married 50 years next month, 61 00:03:28,030 --> 00:03:29,070 S2: 50 years. 62 00:03:29,110 --> 00:03:29,950 S1: Isn't that amazing? 63 00:03:29,990 --> 00:03:30,549 S2: It is amazing. 64 00:03:31,350 --> 00:03:33,630 S1: Uh, you say in this, I look at this book's 65 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:37,830 S1: purpose through the stirring lens. My aim in writing. I 66 00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:40,990 S1: love to live by is to stir up our 21st 67 00:03:40,990 --> 00:03:45,230 S1: century Christian minds by way of reminders, stirring our memories 68 00:03:45,230 --> 00:03:47,990 S1: of the old commands to love one another and all people, 69 00:03:47,990 --> 00:03:51,630 S1: including our enemies. And it's your hope and expectation that 70 00:03:51,630 --> 00:03:55,390 S1: the father will use this to stir up hearts. Tell me, 71 00:03:55,460 --> 00:03:56,780 S1: why did you write this? 72 00:03:57,860 --> 00:04:00,980 S2: That's that's a good question, Chris. It's something that I 73 00:04:01,020 --> 00:04:07,180 S2: have been thinking about for many, many years. As you know, 74 00:04:07,220 --> 00:04:10,060 S2: I'm a preacher, a trainer of preachers, and I am 75 00:04:10,060 --> 00:04:13,620 S2: an expository preacher. And I remember when I was a 76 00:04:13,620 --> 00:04:18,260 S2: missionary in Senegal, West Africa, back in 1987, I think 77 00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:21,420 S2: it was I was doing a series of studies on 78 00:04:21,460 --> 00:04:27,060 S2: first John and I dealt with the the first time 79 00:04:27,060 --> 00:04:29,860 S2: in my preaching ministry with this topic of why we 80 00:04:29,860 --> 00:04:33,460 S2: should love one another based on First John chapter four, 81 00:04:34,220 --> 00:04:38,940 S2: verses seven through 12. And it had such an impact 82 00:04:38,940 --> 00:04:45,100 S2: on my life and had an impact on the church's life. My. 83 00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:50,540 S2: I became a better husband as a result of that, uh, 84 00:04:50,540 --> 00:04:53,420 S2: that that, that preaching, that text. In fact, while I 85 00:04:53,420 --> 00:04:58,280 S2: was preaching a text about husbands, why we should love 86 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,680 S2: one another, and the oddness of love. The Spirit of 87 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,880 S2: God brought my mind to my mind. The text in 88 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,440 S2: Ephesians where it said, even so, husbands ought to love 89 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,360 S2: their own wives. And that's when the Spirit of God 90 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,960 S2: began to deal with me about something very, very practical, 91 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:19,880 S2: like helping my wife with my little son Sterling, in 92 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,719 S2: the middle of the night. Like getting up, helping her 93 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,320 S2: change the diapers and get him fed and all of 94 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,360 S2: that stuff prior to that text. God using that text 95 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,680 S2: to intervene in my life, it never occurred to me. 96 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,320 S2: I hate to say that that that is something that 97 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,760 S2: I need to be involved in. And so it resulted 98 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,600 S2: in a significant change in my life made by the 99 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,920 S2: grace of God, made me a better husband, husband. And 100 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:50,080 S2: through the years I began to see that this element 101 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,470 S2: of agape love in the church and outside of the 102 00:05:54,470 --> 00:05:59,469 S2: church may be one of the strongest areas of need 103 00:05:59,470 --> 00:06:02,110 S2: in the life of the Church of Jesus Christ across 104 00:06:02,110 --> 00:06:05,030 S2: the planet. I think it's getting in the way. The 105 00:06:05,029 --> 00:06:07,510 S2: fact that we don't love the way that we should 106 00:06:07,750 --> 00:06:12,350 S2: is actually getting in the way of revival and renewal 107 00:06:12,350 --> 00:06:16,789 S2: in the church, and the consequent awakening among lost people 108 00:06:17,029 --> 00:06:21,430 S2: outside of the church. In fact, Paul says, everything that 109 00:06:21,430 --> 00:06:24,830 S2: you do, it should be done in love, meaning that love, 110 00:06:24,870 --> 00:06:27,710 S2: agape love in the biblical sense of the idea, is 111 00:06:27,710 --> 00:06:32,990 S2: the non-negotiable for Christian living and efforts and life. And 112 00:06:32,990 --> 00:06:34,909 S2: that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book, 113 00:06:34,910 --> 00:06:37,750 S2: hoping that God would use it as a means of 114 00:06:37,750 --> 00:06:42,789 S2: revival and and reformation in the church, with the consequent 115 00:06:42,790 --> 00:06:46,390 S2: awakening outside of the church, among lost people. When I 116 00:06:46,390 --> 00:06:48,430 S2: mean awakening, I mean the work of the Spirit of 117 00:06:48,430 --> 00:06:51,690 S2: God that awakens people to their desperate need of Jesus. 118 00:06:52,210 --> 00:06:55,770 S1: You put your finger though, on part of the problem, 119 00:06:56,170 --> 00:07:00,410 S1: and that is, I can see in other people's lives 120 00:07:00,410 --> 00:07:03,250 S1: just about anybody you point out on the street or 121 00:07:03,250 --> 00:07:06,089 S1: in the church, wherever I can see where they're not loved. 122 00:07:06,130 --> 00:07:10,410 S1: Those actions are unloving. I don't see it in my self. 123 00:07:10,850 --> 00:07:14,130 S1: And I think that's where the practical, you know, the 124 00:07:14,170 --> 00:07:17,370 S1: way that you have written this book, it's like I'm 125 00:07:17,370 --> 00:07:19,370 S1: looking in a, you know, when you read the Bible, 126 00:07:19,370 --> 00:07:22,809 S1: you're looking in a mirror, you're seeing yourself. But there's 127 00:07:22,810 --> 00:07:25,210 S1: an awful lot of hope here, I think that you've 128 00:07:25,210 --> 00:07:28,970 S1: written about because, because not because we can, you know, 129 00:07:29,010 --> 00:07:32,250 S1: pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, but because God wants 130 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:36,010 S1: to do a work in us and through us. Right? 131 00:07:36,050 --> 00:07:44,410 S2: That's right. Um, the Christian life requires the power of 132 00:07:44,410 --> 00:07:48,330 S2: God in us and through us if we are to 133 00:07:48,330 --> 00:07:52,840 S2: live our lives was biblically the only the Spirit of 134 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,440 S2: God Himself working in us as we say yes to 135 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,120 S2: him in faith based on the Word of God, will 136 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:06,000 S2: enable us as his power is released in us to 137 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:11,560 S2: put agape love into practice. And yet. And still we 138 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,440 S2: have to grow because we can. Okay, I gotta love. 139 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,760 S2: But then we start loving in ways that are not 140 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,320 S2: wise and we short circuit the process and get in 141 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,440 S2: the way, which is I got a chapter in there. 142 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,520 S2: The last next to the last chapter deals with wise love, 143 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:28,920 S2: by the way. Yes. 144 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,680 S1: And, and we've got to get to tough agape to. Yeah, 145 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,920 S1: we do. That's part of it. And I think that 146 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,199 S1: is part of the struggle that we have. It's our 147 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,880 S1: definition of love. It's just like ice cream. There are 148 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,960 S1: so many different flavors and everybody thinks this is the way. 149 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,679 S1: So I want you to unpack that for us today. 150 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,540 S1: And as you listen today, folks, I want you to 151 00:08:49,580 --> 00:08:52,460 S1: think of that person or persons. Or maybe there's a 152 00:08:52,460 --> 00:08:55,340 S1: group of people that you just really have a hard 153 00:08:55,340 --> 00:08:58,140 S1: time and you feel like, you know, I'll leave those 154 00:08:58,140 --> 00:09:00,860 S1: people alone. I'm not going to do anything bad to them, 155 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:05,460 S1: but I sure can't love them. And maybe God will 156 00:09:05,460 --> 00:09:09,700 S1: call you to change your mind or start to think, 157 00:09:09,740 --> 00:09:13,140 S1: I need to change my attitude about this. Maybe it's 158 00:09:13,140 --> 00:09:15,620 S1: somebody in the church. Maybe it's a family member. Maybe 159 00:09:15,620 --> 00:09:18,020 S1: it's somebody down the street. I don't know who it is. 160 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:21,780 S1: Think about that as you listen to Doctor Winfred Neeley today, 161 00:09:22,020 --> 00:09:25,620 S1: a featured resource at Chris Fabry Live. Highly recommended. Chris 162 00:09:25,660 --> 00:09:31,220 S1: fabry.org is a love to live by rediscovering agape love 163 00:09:31,220 --> 00:09:35,940 S1: in scripture. Go to chris.org. And at any point, here's 164 00:09:35,940 --> 00:09:52,370 S1: our number (877) 548-3675. He is one of our favorite guests 165 00:09:52,370 --> 00:09:55,770 S1: here on Chris Fabry Live. Doctor Winfred Neeley we've been 166 00:09:55,770 --> 00:09:59,250 S1: to some really deep places together here at the back fence. 167 00:09:59,250 --> 00:10:04,410 S1: And today we talk about how to live a a 168 00:10:04,690 --> 00:10:08,650 S1: love that God has given us to others, how to 169 00:10:08,650 --> 00:10:11,770 S1: let that overflow. A love to Live by is our 170 00:10:11,770 --> 00:10:17,890 S1: featured resource. Highly recommended at Chris fabry.org. Chris Fabry live.org. 171 00:10:18,650 --> 00:10:22,130 S1: So I've been around church long enough. I didn't study Greek, 172 00:10:22,130 --> 00:10:29,449 S1: but I know there's love, there's Eros, you know, there's, there's, uh, 173 00:10:29,730 --> 00:10:33,930 S1: parental kind of love. And then there's this agape thing 174 00:10:33,929 --> 00:10:36,210 S1: and you even have it in the book written in, 175 00:10:36,210 --> 00:10:40,610 S1: in Greek, and it's kind of transliterated. So tell me, 176 00:10:40,650 --> 00:10:43,050 S1: what is agape love and why do we need to 177 00:10:43,090 --> 00:10:44,210 S1: know that Greek word? 178 00:10:44,650 --> 00:10:51,949 S2: Well, Out first. It is God himself that gives agape 179 00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:57,470 S2: love its meaning. Um, it's this term agape is taken 180 00:10:57,470 --> 00:11:01,990 S2: up by the Spirit of God in order to communicate 181 00:11:01,990 --> 00:11:08,670 S2: something to us about the love of God Himself. Now, 182 00:11:08,670 --> 00:11:14,950 S2: in terms of what agape is, it's not romantic love. I, 183 00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:17,950 S2: you know, I mention in the book that I'm that 184 00:11:17,950 --> 00:11:21,390 S2: I'm a product of the 60s and I grew up 185 00:11:21,390 --> 00:11:25,030 S2: shaped by the love songs of the era. You know, 186 00:11:25,070 --> 00:11:28,030 S2: I found love on a one way street and lost 187 00:11:28,030 --> 00:11:31,510 S2: it on a lonely highway. Or I'm going to wait 188 00:11:31,510 --> 00:11:35,550 S2: until the midnight hour. Wilson Pickett. That's when my love 189 00:11:35,550 --> 00:11:38,990 S2: comes tumbling down. And I kind of remark, tongue in cheek, 190 00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:40,910 S2: that that's the kind of a song that a man 191 00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:45,020 S2: would write. Uh, and so you're, you know, you're you 192 00:11:45,220 --> 00:11:49,620 S2: you're being. And what's happened, what's what's happening is that, 193 00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:55,020 S2: you know, that generation was being formed, right? Unbeknownst to 194 00:11:55,020 --> 00:12:00,219 S2: us about what love is, what agape love is, is, is, 195 00:12:00,340 --> 00:12:04,220 S2: is the love of God. And it is a love 196 00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:09,500 S2: that gives, first of all, you know, God so loved 197 00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:14,620 S2: the world that he gave his only begotten son, that 198 00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:17,580 S2: whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. 199 00:12:17,580 --> 00:12:22,340 S2: So agape love is a love that gives us first 200 00:12:22,340 --> 00:12:30,980 S2: John chapter three, verse 16 says, we know agape love 201 00:12:31,020 --> 00:12:35,220 S2: by this, that he laid down his life for us. 202 00:12:35,620 --> 00:12:45,840 S2: So agape love is sacrificial. Um. First John 410 says, 203 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,920 S2: and this is agape. In other words, this is the 204 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:54,360 S2: essence of love or agape in the Greek text. Not 205 00:12:54,360 --> 00:13:00,120 S2: that we love God, but that he loved us and 206 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:05,600 S2: sent his son. So agape love gives the best that 207 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,080 S2: I can give. I sent His son to be the 208 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,480 S2: propitiation for our sins. In other words, it was the 209 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,960 S2: death of Christ on the cross that satisfied the justice 210 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,640 S2: of God so that we would not experience the wrath 211 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,240 S2: of God. And as a consequence of this, God shows 212 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,839 S2: grace and mercy to us, not at the expense, not 213 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,040 S2: at the expense of justice, but on the basis of justice. Satisfied? 214 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,520 S2: And and this too, is the expression of the love 215 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,760 S2: of God. Oh, the love that drew salvation's plan. Oh 216 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,600 S2: the love that brought it down to man. A mighty 217 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:46,030 S2: gulf that God did span at Calvary. Now this is 218 00:13:46,030 --> 00:13:51,190 S2: agape love. Something else about this is that God in 219 00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:56,910 S2: His essence is love, which is a stunning thought. There 220 00:13:56,910 --> 00:14:04,309 S2: isn't one ounce or one of selfishness in God. I mean, 221 00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:08,990 S2: he he's love. And there has been the exercise of 222 00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:12,990 S2: of this holy love. God the Father, God the Son, 223 00:14:12,990 --> 00:14:17,750 S2: God the Holy Spirit, reveling in one another's glory from 224 00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:22,030 S2: all eternity. That never was a moment when love in 225 00:14:22,030 --> 00:14:26,590 S2: the Godhead was not in exercise. And it's been expressed 226 00:14:26,590 --> 00:14:31,230 S2: in human history, um through in the cross of Christ. Uh, 227 00:14:31,270 --> 00:14:33,830 S2: his death is buried in his bodily resurrection from among 228 00:14:33,830 --> 00:14:39,350 S2: the dead. And now the Lord wants to us to 229 00:14:39,390 --> 00:14:43,810 S2: love and the agape sense in the power of the spirit, 230 00:14:43,810 --> 00:14:47,610 S2: because we are recipients of that love. Meaning, then that 231 00:14:47,610 --> 00:14:52,690 S2: agape love. In the biblical sense, Chris, is distinct from 232 00:14:52,690 --> 00:14:57,530 S2: and different from any other form or kind of love, 233 00:14:57,570 --> 00:15:00,690 S2: as we would call it in the human experience. It 234 00:15:00,690 --> 00:15:06,010 S2: literally comes from God. It's, it's an invasion in a 235 00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:10,010 S2: redemptive sense in the human experience through the power of 236 00:15:10,010 --> 00:15:13,850 S2: the Holy Spirit. And that's the big that's the central 237 00:15:13,850 --> 00:15:16,610 S2: difference between agape love and then the other kind of 238 00:15:16,610 --> 00:15:17,650 S2: human affection. 239 00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:19,850 S1: Aren't you glad for the Greek that had so many 240 00:15:19,850 --> 00:15:23,450 S1: different words for love? Because, you know, I can love 241 00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:27,650 S1: ice cream or I can love pretzels or whatever it is. 242 00:15:27,770 --> 00:15:30,490 S1: I love my wife or I love my dog. And 243 00:15:30,490 --> 00:15:34,850 S1: it's the same word. But the word that you are 244 00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:40,040 S1: using here seems to me that it's an active choice. 245 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,880 S1: There is a sense of. It's not a feeling. God 246 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,320 S1: has a great feeling and he looks down through the 247 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,960 S1: corridors of time and sees you and me and says, oh, 248 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,960 S1: aren't they sweet? Aren't they kind? You know, aren't they wonderful? 249 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,520 S1: I think I'm going to love them. I love Winfred, no, 250 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,640 S1: it's it's in though our sins are there, you know, 251 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,800 S1: talk about selfishness. We got all we got all kinds 252 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:09,479 S1: of selfishness in spite of us, in spite of our wrongdoing. 253 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,120 S1: He commended his love. So it is an active kind 254 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,040 S1: of love that is not deserving. We didn't earn it. Right? 255 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,200 S2: No, that's that's right. We we did not earn. There's 256 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:25,160 S2: anything in us that can earn the love of God. Uh, 257 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,240 S2: we did not respond to his love. We were incapable 258 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,720 S2: of responding to the love of God because we were 259 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:38,500 S2: dead spiritually. And our plight was, was, was really, really bad, 260 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:42,260 S2: but it was the intervention of God in our. In 261 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:44,500 S2: history through the work of Christ on the cross and 262 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:48,300 S2: his bodily resurrection from among the dead, and the convicting 263 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,900 S2: work of the Spirit of God. And we come to 264 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:53,460 S2: know Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, and we 265 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:56,860 S2: are saved for all eternity. And that is an expression 266 00:16:56,860 --> 00:17:03,220 S2: of the unearned, the unmerited, infinite love of God toward 267 00:17:03,220 --> 00:17:04,260 S2: the human family. 268 00:17:04,460 --> 00:17:07,860 S1: This sounds like hesed to me from the Old Testament. 269 00:17:08,140 --> 00:17:11,140 S1: This sounds like. And Michael Card, we've talked about this 270 00:17:11,140 --> 00:17:15,060 S1: through the years. When the person who owes me nothing 271 00:17:15,420 --> 00:17:19,780 S1: gives me everything that what I don't deserve. That's what 272 00:17:19,780 --> 00:17:21,100 S1: this sounds like to me. 273 00:17:21,380 --> 00:17:23,979 S2: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's a commitment on the 274 00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:27,219 S2: part of God to undeserving people. He is more committed 275 00:17:27,220 --> 00:17:29,060 S2: to us than we are committed to him. 276 00:17:30,060 --> 00:17:33,940 S1: So this kind of love then cannot be something that 277 00:17:33,940 --> 00:17:37,290 S1: we just put on our to do list. This is 278 00:17:37,290 --> 00:17:40,050 S1: the kind of thing that if we're going to love 279 00:17:40,290 --> 00:17:44,250 S1: even the people who love us back, uh, let alone 280 00:17:44,290 --> 00:17:47,850 S1: the people who we see as enemies and who, you know, 281 00:17:47,890 --> 00:17:51,210 S1: say bad things to us or cut us off in traffic, uh, 282 00:17:51,410 --> 00:17:55,129 S1: in order to love them, we've got to be empowered 283 00:17:55,130 --> 00:17:58,489 S1: by God himself to give that kind of love. How 284 00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:59,450 S1: does that happen? 285 00:18:00,050 --> 00:18:03,170 S2: Well, I first of all, I think we, we need 286 00:18:03,170 --> 00:18:09,570 S2: to come to terms with the biblical imperative that it's 287 00:18:09,570 --> 00:18:13,170 S2: God's will for us to love one another, and it's 288 00:18:13,170 --> 00:18:15,970 S2: God's will for us to love all people. Now, what 289 00:18:15,970 --> 00:18:22,250 S2: that looks like is that's another question. But the imperative itself. 290 00:18:22,650 --> 00:18:26,090 S2: We are commanded by God to love one another. If 291 00:18:26,130 --> 00:18:29,850 S2: we refuse to love, we're disobeying God. And it would 292 00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:32,930 S2: seem to me that one of the first things that 293 00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:35,670 S2: I'm going to have to do, and I got. And 294 00:18:35,670 --> 00:18:38,630 S2: we talk about that in the in the last chapter 295 00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:41,830 S2: of the book called The Final Appeal. One of the 296 00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:45,070 S2: things that we have to do is admit to God 297 00:18:45,670 --> 00:18:49,710 S2: that we cannot do it in our own strength. I 298 00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:54,590 S2: can't pull it off. I can't do it. And because 299 00:18:54,590 --> 00:18:59,430 S2: there is something in me that is resistant to it, 300 00:18:59,430 --> 00:19:01,630 S2: now we have new life in Christ. We've been born 301 00:19:01,630 --> 00:19:05,710 S2: again of the Spirit of God as as true Christ followers, 302 00:19:05,710 --> 00:19:08,390 S2: we are regenerate. The Spirit of God lives within us, 303 00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:12,830 S2: but we still have a sinful nature. And that's a 304 00:19:12,830 --> 00:19:16,270 S2: whole nother issue. I think we need to revisit. This 305 00:19:16,270 --> 00:19:21,470 S2: generation needs to revisit the doctrine, the teaching of indwelling sin. 306 00:19:21,470 --> 00:19:25,470 S2: Where are all these crazy impulses that that I'm experiencing? 307 00:19:25,470 --> 00:19:29,550 S2: Why does this resistance come unbidden? I didn't ask for 308 00:19:29,550 --> 00:19:32,590 S2: the resistance. I'm making a commitment, but yet there's something 309 00:19:32,590 --> 00:19:34,940 S2: in me that just shows up in my heart that 310 00:19:34,940 --> 00:19:39,500 S2: says no. Well, welcome to the battle. And we admit 311 00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:41,460 S2: to God. We admit to him, you know, I can't 312 00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:44,180 S2: do it in my own strength. I think it was D.L. 313 00:19:44,220 --> 00:19:47,460 S2: Moody who said that the shortest and wisest prayer that 314 00:19:47,460 --> 00:19:50,100 S2: a person can make is, oh, God help me God. 315 00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:53,300 S2: God help me, God help me, help me, God, I 316 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:55,420 S2: can't do it. And I think we need to admit 317 00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:57,980 S2: this to God every day. I can't do it, God, 318 00:19:57,980 --> 00:20:00,180 S2: I need, I need you to help me and to 319 00:20:00,220 --> 00:20:05,980 S2: remember that the fundamental struggle is not with the other person, 320 00:20:06,340 --> 00:20:12,139 S2: the fundamental struggle, the antagonist here is our own sinful hearts. 321 00:20:12,859 --> 00:20:15,179 S2: That's what we got to come to terms with. And 322 00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:18,420 S2: it's profoundly humbling to come to terms with that. But 323 00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:21,859 S2: yet this is where we start getting on the path 324 00:20:21,859 --> 00:20:28,260 S2: toward victory and taking steps of repentance. Um, making the 325 00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:32,520 S2: decision that we're going to love and faith today, You know. 326 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,640 S2: And when our prayer life. Lord, help me to be 327 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,280 S2: an instrument of your love today and to let other 328 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,840 S2: people in our immediate sphere of influence, know that we've 329 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,080 S2: made these kinds of commitments so that we can be 330 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,720 S2: we can be accountable to one another. And just saying 331 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,840 S2: yes to God and to his way in making these 332 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,600 S2: hard kinds of decisions, we'll find ourselves being instruments of 333 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,240 S2: the love of God. And what I just said is 334 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,680 S2: easier said than done. We just can't pull it off 335 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,600 S2: in our own strength. We need God to help us. 336 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,600 S1: Well, and that shows the dependence that we have, which 337 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,160 S1: is where we have to wind up. It's like, God, 338 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,560 S1: if I can't do this on my own, I'm depending 339 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,960 S1: on you. And through the years when when I would 340 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,640 S1: have a person like this or a situation like this 341 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,040 S1: with work or what in whatever sphere, what I would always, 342 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,639 S1: always come back to. And I think God would always 343 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,230 S1: drag me kicking and screaming to was. I can't figure 344 00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:37,390 S1: out how to love this person. And so I would 345 00:21:37,390 --> 00:21:41,030 S1: start to put them on my prayer list. Not to say, God, 346 00:21:41,030 --> 00:21:43,190 S1: would you change this person? You got to, you got 347 00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:44,750 S1: to do this, and you got to do that so 348 00:21:44,750 --> 00:21:48,910 S1: that they'll change. But the prayer is, God bless them, 349 00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:52,750 S1: do good things in their life, let their heart be 350 00:21:52,750 --> 00:21:58,190 S1: open to you and change my attitude toward them. And 351 00:21:58,190 --> 00:22:01,550 S1: I find it. I found it very difficult to stay 352 00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:05,750 S1: angry and mad 24 over seven with people I've been 353 00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:07,590 S1: praying for. What about you? 354 00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:14,310 S2: Well, no, that's a that's a that's a good question, Chris. Um, yeah. And, 355 00:22:14,430 --> 00:22:18,830 S2: and you're, and you're praying for people. You're praying for people. 356 00:22:18,869 --> 00:22:21,070 S2: You know, I mean, you might be praying for someone 357 00:22:21,070 --> 00:22:26,710 S2: who has done something that's quite egregious. That's, and I'm 358 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:30,370 S2: sure people are listening right now that this person has 359 00:22:30,369 --> 00:22:36,530 S2: hurt us deeply and they are not repentant. They are 360 00:22:36,530 --> 00:22:41,010 S2: wrong for what they did. And it's so easy now 361 00:22:41,530 --> 00:22:46,330 S2: to hate that person, even as a follower of Christ. 362 00:22:46,369 --> 00:22:49,450 S2: This is why Jesus said, you have heard that it 363 00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:55,610 S2: was said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. 364 00:22:56,010 --> 00:23:01,369 S2: But I say to you, love your enemy and pray 365 00:23:01,369 --> 00:23:06,770 S2: for those who persecute you. Now I don't know about you, 366 00:23:06,770 --> 00:23:09,010 S2: but if I was standing on the sermon on the 367 00:23:09,010 --> 00:23:12,889 S2: Mount listening to that, I would have been shocked out 368 00:23:12,890 --> 00:23:17,650 S2: of my wits. You've got to be kidding me. And 369 00:23:17,650 --> 00:23:20,330 S2: that's what Jesus is saying now. It doesn't mean that 370 00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:24,610 S2: we approve of everything that people do. It doesn't mean 371 00:23:24,609 --> 00:23:28,510 S2: that we close our eyes to wrongdoing. What it does 372 00:23:28,510 --> 00:23:35,990 S2: mean that we are not to hate anyone but the 373 00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:40,110 S2: love of people, including our enemies. And what does that? 374 00:23:40,150 --> 00:23:42,870 S2: I'm going to be honest on the air and say this, Chris, 375 00:23:42,910 --> 00:23:46,390 S2: because I think this will help people. There was someone 376 00:23:46,670 --> 00:23:50,670 S2: who did something that was so painful to me and 377 00:23:50,670 --> 00:23:54,550 S2: my family that I did not pray for that person 378 00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:58,230 S2: for an entire year. I could not even say the 379 00:23:58,230 --> 00:24:02,310 S2: person's name in the Spirit of God began to work 380 00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:08,109 S2: in my heart and mind. I'm still hurt. I'm still cry, 381 00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:13,270 S2: but I'm. But I'm also praying that God would work 382 00:24:13,270 --> 00:24:19,869 S2: in that person's heart to bring them to repentance. Because fundamentally, 383 00:24:20,109 --> 00:24:23,950 S2: I do want to see the best for that person. 384 00:24:23,950 --> 00:24:27,179 S2: They're flourishing in the presence of God, But it's a 385 00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:31,580 S2: process that requires that requires the grace of God and 386 00:24:31,580 --> 00:24:34,740 S2: wisdom as we move out into the arena of love. 387 00:24:34,940 --> 00:24:37,060 S1: I think you're right. I think that's going to help 388 00:24:37,060 --> 00:24:40,780 S1: somebody because there's probably somebody listening right now who's in, 389 00:24:40,859 --> 00:24:45,340 S1: who's been hurt deeply, or their family, some kind of 390 00:24:45,340 --> 00:24:49,500 S1: betrayal at work, you know, in the church. That's where 391 00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:53,540 S1: it's you don't expect it and it blindsides you. And 392 00:24:53,540 --> 00:24:59,740 S1: so how do you live by that kind of love? 393 00:25:00,060 --> 00:25:02,300 S1: We've already said you can't do it on your own. 394 00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:05,020 S1: God has to empower you to do that. But what 395 00:25:05,020 --> 00:25:07,340 S1: then is the process? And you said it took you 396 00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:11,419 S1: a whole year. And and thank God that after a 397 00:25:11,420 --> 00:25:14,100 S1: year you started to see this. That's God at work 398 00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:16,219 S1: in your heart. Let me take a pause. Let me 399 00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:19,260 S1: call a time out. Is this is this hitting you 400 00:25:19,260 --> 00:25:21,900 S1: in the heart? Is there somebody that you're thinking of? 401 00:25:21,940 --> 00:25:25,880 S1: Is there some situation that you are in right now 402 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,680 S1: or have been, and it came up from ten years 403 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,880 S1: ago in your mind. Yeah. Never forgave that person, but 404 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,480 S1: they've moved on. But it's still down there. I want 405 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,280 S1: you to talk with Doctor Neely. Let me open the 406 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:48,960 S1: lines at 87754836758775483675. At the website, you'll see his new book, 407 00:25:49,000 --> 00:26:04,879 S1: A Love to Live By. More straight ahead. We talk 408 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,639 S1: about this program being two of the heart for the 409 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,960 S1: heart from the heart. If this topic doesn't hit your heart, 410 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,240 S1: I don't know what will. Because this is right where 411 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,600 S1: we live. This is at the corner of your life, 412 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,080 S1: God's love and that other person you can't stand. Even 413 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,120 S1: that other believer, the person in church that you walk 414 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:27,710 S1: to the other side of the congregation in order not 415 00:26:27,710 --> 00:26:31,790 S1: to sit near that person, not to pass that person. 416 00:26:31,790 --> 00:26:35,750 S1: You go around the corner in order not to drive 417 00:26:35,790 --> 00:26:39,870 S1: past that person's house. You go the long way around. 418 00:26:39,910 --> 00:26:43,230 S1: A love to live by rediscovering agape love in Scripture 419 00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:46,110 S1: is written by Doctor Winifred Neely. It's our featured resource. 420 00:26:46,109 --> 00:26:50,590 S1: Just go to chris.org. Okay, here's the hard part then, 421 00:26:50,590 --> 00:26:54,910 S1: Doctor Neely, to what you just described, this person that 422 00:26:54,910 --> 00:26:57,590 S1: hurt you and hurt your family. And after a year, 423 00:26:57,710 --> 00:27:00,629 S1: God works in your heart and you begin to go 424 00:27:00,630 --> 00:27:06,150 S1: through the the choice of expressing love in whatever that 425 00:27:06,150 --> 00:27:09,350 S1: means to that, to that other person praying for them. 426 00:27:09,790 --> 00:27:12,910 S1: I think a lot of people in the church believe 427 00:27:13,270 --> 00:27:16,470 S1: that if I've forgiven someone, if I show love to someone, 428 00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:18,750 S1: that I'm not going to have any of those feelings, 429 00:27:18,750 --> 00:27:20,950 S1: God's going to erase that. He's going to wipe that 430 00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:24,250 S1: away and give me just good feelings for that other person. 431 00:27:24,250 --> 00:27:28,250 S1: Warm fuzziness every time I see them. And that's not 432 00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:29,810 S1: necessarily true, is it? 433 00:27:30,210 --> 00:27:40,450 S2: No, because we have a faculty that's called memory. This 434 00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:47,129 S2: is why people write memoirs to go back over life. 435 00:27:47,730 --> 00:27:54,129 S2: Not in the autobiographical sense, but in in an interpretive sense. 436 00:27:54,850 --> 00:28:01,330 S2: And I think a part of love is cultivating the 437 00:28:01,330 --> 00:28:11,369 S2: capacity to remember redemptively to remember with understanding. Now, I 438 00:28:11,369 --> 00:28:16,570 S2: think I may have mentioned, uh, on this program before, 439 00:28:16,930 --> 00:28:19,810 S2: and I can say this because he's no longer with us. 440 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,600 S2: And I'm saying it not because I'm obsessed with it now, 441 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,120 S2: but to help. I was physically abused by my stepfather. 442 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:37,400 S2: It haunted me for years. Now, it was a springboard 443 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,800 S2: for me that by the grace of God, Stephanie and 444 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,000 S2: I never physically or verbally abused our children. We didn't 445 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,400 S2: do that. But my own experience haunted me. And so 446 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,440 S2: what I want to suggest to someone who's who's loving, 447 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,880 S2: who has forgiven, you might want to journal about the experience. 448 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:07,040 S2: How about writing a poem? I wrote a poem about 449 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,120 S2: the experience I had with my stepfather, and the last 450 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,000 S2: line of the poem is something like this. Maybe he 451 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:21,220 S2: was abused too long before I came along. Now I 452 00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:25,660 S2: am not trying to excuse. I'm not excusing, I am 453 00:29:25,660 --> 00:29:30,700 S2: not I am not closing my eyes. What I'm trying 454 00:29:30,740 --> 00:29:35,780 S2: to do is understand. And I think that in those 455 00:29:35,780 --> 00:29:44,580 S2: kinds of circumstances, uh, love remembers in a way that 456 00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:49,420 S2: seeks to understand and not simply to recount. And that's 457 00:29:49,420 --> 00:29:53,900 S2: a whole that's a whole nother, that's another area of, 458 00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:57,580 S2: of tremendous need in the church because there are a 459 00:29:57,580 --> 00:30:02,380 S2: number of people who love God, who love Jesus, but they, they, 460 00:30:02,420 --> 00:30:07,660 S2: they don't know how to remember in a way that 461 00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:12,020 S2: the forgiveness that they've exercised in the present helps them 462 00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:16,780 S2: lovingly understand at least some of the causes of the 463 00:30:16,780 --> 00:30:20,770 S2: person's brokenness in the past. And that's been a, that's 464 00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:22,930 S2: been a, that's been a, been a help to me. 465 00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:27,450 S2: And remember, remember, we, we're not, we are not computers 466 00:30:27,450 --> 00:30:30,850 S2: where you can just press the delete button from the 467 00:30:30,850 --> 00:30:34,810 S2: memory of your mind. Uh, but the Bible does say 468 00:30:34,850 --> 00:30:39,370 S2: forgetting the things that are behind. Now, what that means 469 00:30:39,370 --> 00:30:44,090 S2: is simply is this is that we choose by the 470 00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:47,370 S2: grace of God and the power of the spirit, not 471 00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:50,730 S2: to allow the trauma or the victories of the past 472 00:30:50,730 --> 00:30:56,210 S2: to impact our walk with God in the present. I 473 00:30:56,210 --> 00:31:00,570 S2: don't allow the trauma of yesterday to keep me from 474 00:31:00,610 --> 00:31:06,850 S2: loving today. Otherwise, we're crippled by what's happened to us 475 00:31:06,850 --> 00:31:09,770 S2: and so controlled to we're controlled by. 476 00:31:09,770 --> 00:31:15,770 S1: Controlled by that memory and that neural pathway. Yeah. You know, 477 00:31:16,090 --> 00:31:18,990 S1: and you got to break out of that. But thank 478 00:31:18,990 --> 00:31:21,510 S1: God he gives you the power to do that. But 479 00:31:21,510 --> 00:31:25,870 S1: it doesn't like you say, it doesn't erase. So take 480 00:31:25,870 --> 00:31:29,270 S1: me to then the toward the end, you talk about 481 00:31:29,310 --> 00:31:32,430 S1: tough agape. And I want to hear about that. What is. 482 00:31:32,590 --> 00:31:35,110 S1: And everybody's heard of tough love. Is that what tough 483 00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:35,950 S1: agape is. 484 00:31:36,790 --> 00:31:43,310 S2: In some sense. But a tough agape is the kind 485 00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:49,750 S2: of love that does not enable sin. I mean, I 486 00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:54,910 S2: tell the story, um, near the end of the book about, uh, 487 00:31:54,910 --> 00:31:57,590 S2: about a man who was a, who was a drug 488 00:31:57,590 --> 00:32:04,270 S2: addict who was homeless. And he would stop by his 489 00:32:04,270 --> 00:32:06,950 S2: sister's house from time to time and she would let 490 00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:11,150 S2: him in. Now he comes in, he smells bad, his 491 00:32:11,150 --> 00:32:14,950 S2: clothes are dirty, and there's no telling what else he's 492 00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:17,020 S2: bringing with him. And he would go upstairs and he 493 00:32:17,020 --> 00:32:21,100 S2: would she would allow him to take a bath and, uh, 494 00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:25,420 S2: and the, the stench and everything else lingered in her 495 00:32:25,420 --> 00:32:29,580 S2: home after he was gone. She loved him. She did. 496 00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:33,820 S2: But one, one day in the middle of winter, he 497 00:32:33,820 --> 00:32:35,900 S2: had on gym shoes in the middle of winter. You 498 00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:37,300 S2: know how it gets here in the city of Chicago 499 00:32:37,340 --> 00:32:41,660 S2: had on gym shoes. He. He knocked on her door and, uh, 500 00:32:41,940 --> 00:32:46,260 S2: she doesn't let him in. And he told me, he said, 501 00:32:46,260 --> 00:32:50,460 S2: I sat on those stairs and I cried and I 502 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:55,420 S2: sobbed like a baby. And he said, I got up 503 00:32:55,420 --> 00:33:00,020 S2: and checked myself into a drug rehabilitation center. Mhm. He 504 00:33:00,780 --> 00:33:04,100 S2: got over the drug addiction. A year later, when the 505 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:08,700 S2: program was over, his sister, who would not open that door, 506 00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:12,820 S2: was the one who met him. And he told me, 507 00:33:12,820 --> 00:33:15,960 S2: he said that was an example of tough love. I'm 508 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,800 S2: the product of tough love, biblically informed, agape love that 509 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,040 S2: gives and sacrifices for the good of the other is 510 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,920 S2: not going to enable their own self-destruction. It will take 511 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,720 S2: steps to push them in a direction of health and 512 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,920 S2: human flourishing. And that means sometimes we're going to have 513 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,280 S2: to say no to this behavior, and you're going to 514 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,800 S2: have to make some difficult choices to get you going 515 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,400 S2: in the right direction. I'm here to help you do that, 516 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,360 S2: but I'm not here to enable your sin. 517 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,800 S1: How do you know when to do that, though? Because 518 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,440 S1: there's a parent listening right now whose son or daughter 519 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,400 S1: is making bad choices with their life and they want 520 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,880 S1: to live back home, move back home or whatever. We 521 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,120 S1: need some cash here, you know, just to get us 522 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,759 S1: through and, and you, you want, you don't want to 523 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,549 S1: enable and you do want to love. Well, how do 524 00:34:13,550 --> 00:34:15,509 S1: you know when to do that? Tough agape. 525 00:34:15,590 --> 00:34:20,069 S2: Well, interestingly enough, I think that's something that's done in community. 526 00:34:21,110 --> 00:34:24,069 S2: I why don't you why don't you talk to your friends? Who, 527 00:34:24,110 --> 00:34:28,390 S2: who in the church who love you and your pastors and, 528 00:34:28,390 --> 00:34:31,950 S2: and people who have the wisdom and discernment, who can 529 00:34:31,950 --> 00:34:35,109 S2: help you. And they may you may tell you, you know, 530 00:34:35,150 --> 00:34:39,509 S2: if you if you do this, you're enabling. And sometimes 531 00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:42,910 S2: we need people who are kind of kind of like, 532 00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:46,430 S2: kind of like you're playing a basketball game, right? And 533 00:34:46,469 --> 00:34:48,870 S2: you're out there on the court. You don't see everything 534 00:34:48,870 --> 00:34:53,070 S2: that's happening. But the coach who is looking at this 535 00:34:53,230 --> 00:34:55,469 S2: when when y'all have a break, he calls a timeout. Well, 536 00:34:55,469 --> 00:34:57,230 S2: she calls a timeout. They may say, you need to 537 00:34:57,230 --> 00:34:59,469 S2: continue to do this. You need to continue to do that. 538 00:34:59,469 --> 00:35:01,270 S2: That's what you're doing is working. What you're doing over 539 00:35:01,270 --> 00:35:04,310 S2: here is not working. And we need men and women 540 00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:08,190 S2: in our lives who can help us to to look, 541 00:35:08,230 --> 00:35:11,230 S2: look at looking at standing by on the sideline of 542 00:35:11,230 --> 00:35:14,690 S2: a family life and say, you know that there is 543 00:35:14,690 --> 00:35:20,049 S2: not working and it's not helping. In my judgment, it 544 00:35:20,050 --> 00:35:21,770 S2: might be better if you did this or you do 545 00:35:21,810 --> 00:35:25,170 S2: you do that, and you make those kinds of decisions prayerfully. 546 00:35:25,170 --> 00:35:28,850 S2: You make them in community. And I think that those 547 00:35:28,850 --> 00:35:30,770 S2: are some of the ways that we we can help 548 00:35:30,770 --> 00:35:31,850 S2: one another out. 549 00:35:32,290 --> 00:35:35,290 S1: Well, there's another one. Another right there. That's a good 550 00:35:35,290 --> 00:35:37,969 S1: way to love someone else. But how are you going 551 00:35:37,969 --> 00:35:40,210 S1: to help somebody in community if you're not in it? 552 00:35:40,250 --> 00:35:42,890 S1: You know, you got to be in there. So there's 553 00:35:42,890 --> 00:35:46,090 S1: another injunction. There's an awful lot. There's so many different 554 00:35:46,090 --> 00:35:50,009 S1: facets of this agape love that Doctor Winifred Neely is 555 00:35:50,010 --> 00:35:53,690 S1: talking about today. And if you go to Chris Fabry live.org, 556 00:35:53,730 --> 00:35:56,890 S1: you will see the book, the new book, A Love 557 00:35:56,930 --> 00:36:01,930 S1: to Live By, by Doctor Neely, Chris Fabry, live.org. We 558 00:36:01,930 --> 00:36:04,210 S1: have a link right there on the front page and 559 00:36:04,210 --> 00:36:08,450 S1: then on today's program page. Would love for you to 560 00:36:08,690 --> 00:36:20,640 S1: see that right there. Chris Fabry live.org. As I said, 561 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,959 S1: something good always happens when Doctor Neely comes along. And 562 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,400 S1: we've made available his book at our website, A Love 563 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,680 S1: to Live By. But I'm just looking at my email 564 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,600 S1: here in the break, and I need to hear every 565 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,040 S1: word from Doctor Neely. A friend writes and then a man. 566 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,680 S1: After you told that story, Doctor Neely, of not being 567 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,600 S1: able to pray for this person for a year. A 568 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:51,800 S1: man called and said that his daughter young daughter was assaulted. 569 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,120 S1: And it sounds like it continued. It wasn't a one 570 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,560 S1: time thing. It was a continual thing. And the police 571 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,560 S1: were involved and there was a lot of anger and 572 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,560 S1: there was a lot of hurt, and you can just 573 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,359 S1: hear it in his voice and the voicemail. And at 574 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,660 S1: the end he said, how do I and how does 575 00:37:09,660 --> 00:37:13,219 S1: my family. How do we pray for this other person? 576 00:37:13,260 --> 00:37:17,140 S1: How do we show love to this other person in 577 00:37:17,140 --> 00:37:21,100 S1: the middle of the, you know, the assault or the 578 00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:24,780 S1: continual questions and the and the heard and the anger? 579 00:37:24,820 --> 00:37:25,540 S1: What do you say? 580 00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:32,940 S2: Well, I'm I'm glad that that father called. I get it. 581 00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:42,020 S2: I raised two daughters. I have two granddaughters. I care 582 00:37:42,020 --> 00:37:50,219 S2: for them fiercely. And the idea of a man assaulting 583 00:37:51,340 --> 00:38:00,300 S2: repeatedly one of my daughters is. The thought is outrageous. Uh, 584 00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:06,620 S2: that being said, um, the issue is this is a 585 00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:12,529 S2: complex issue. Let me deal with the perpetrator first. I 586 00:38:12,570 --> 00:38:17,810 S2: think taking steps as much as possible legally with the 587 00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:22,210 S2: police to keep this person out of your daughter's life 588 00:38:22,410 --> 00:38:29,170 S2: is an expression of love because it's promoting the flourishing 589 00:38:29,210 --> 00:38:34,250 S2: of your daughter. It's also preventing this perpetrator from going 590 00:38:34,290 --> 00:38:38,370 S2: further than he has gone to this point. I have 591 00:38:38,370 --> 00:38:43,050 S2: a section in the book that talks about that, uh, that, 592 00:38:43,090 --> 00:38:46,529 S2: you know, of course, this is, is, is, is, is, is, is, uh, is, 593 00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:48,290 S2: is for people who are married. I'm compelled to say 594 00:38:48,290 --> 00:38:50,489 S2: here to any reader at this point, if you are 595 00:38:50,489 --> 00:38:53,489 S2: being physically abused by your wife or your husband, you 596 00:38:53,489 --> 00:38:55,649 S2: need to get out of that situation as quickly as 597 00:38:55,650 --> 00:38:59,730 S2: you can. Develop and plan an exit before you lose 598 00:38:59,730 --> 00:39:04,370 S2: your life. That's it. That's in the book. And so you. 599 00:39:05,130 --> 00:39:09,149 S2: And this is where discernment comes in. Okay, how do 600 00:39:09,150 --> 00:39:11,270 S2: I pray for this man? I pray that he would 601 00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:15,470 S2: have a change of heart. I pray for his repentance. 602 00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:19,790 S2: I pray that you will providentially protect my daughter from 603 00:39:19,989 --> 00:39:23,510 S2: from this person. I want to pray that he will 604 00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:27,149 S2: accept Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. I want 605 00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:29,430 S2: to pray that you will. That you will change his 606 00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:32,270 S2: heart and mind in life. And yet, at the same time, 607 00:39:32,270 --> 00:39:39,509 S2: I also do not conflate forgiveness with reconciliation. So they 608 00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:44,230 S2: may have gone too far so that reconciliation this side 609 00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:49,030 S2: of heaven is not possible. But it is possible for 610 00:39:49,070 --> 00:39:54,469 S2: perhaps for forgiveness to be, to be, to be extended. Right. 611 00:39:54,510 --> 00:39:57,950 S2: But then that's going to require repentance on, on the 612 00:39:57,950 --> 00:40:00,950 S2: part of, on the part of this person. And so 613 00:40:00,950 --> 00:40:03,149 S2: those are some of the kind of things. And, and 614 00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:07,500 S2: the fact that the father called in to ask how 615 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:11,540 S2: I should pray. Thank you. If you're listening, sir. Thank 616 00:40:11,540 --> 00:40:14,860 S2: you for that. Because that's an expression of love, too. 617 00:40:15,180 --> 00:40:17,419 S2: You want to do the right thing. Your heart's in 618 00:40:17,420 --> 00:40:21,060 S2: the right place. The fact that you would even ask 619 00:40:21,060 --> 00:40:26,740 S2: that for a person who's assaulted your little girl. Man. 620 00:40:26,940 --> 00:40:30,220 S2: Hats off to you. And we want to pray for you. 621 00:40:30,219 --> 00:40:33,739 S2: But I would also try to get some help with 622 00:40:33,739 --> 00:40:37,620 S2: my daughter, too, to figure out if she's still involved 623 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:41,700 S2: with this fellow. What is it that's driving that too, 624 00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:46,540 S2: you know? So again, it's a complex, it's a complex issue. Um, 625 00:40:46,580 --> 00:40:51,340 S2: that that would require would require some ongoing pastoral counseling 626 00:40:51,340 --> 00:40:55,020 S2: and help. But that's my initial take is I would 627 00:40:55,020 --> 00:40:58,020 S2: do everything I could to protect, keep my, keep this 628 00:40:58,020 --> 00:41:01,980 S2: guy from my daughter legally and everything else, and make 629 00:41:02,020 --> 00:41:04,399 S2: sure that my daughter is getting the counseling that she 630 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,600 S2: needs and the strength that she needs, that she's being 631 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,919 S2: built up, that her that she doesn't feel that she 632 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,120 S2: has to have this fella, this abusive man in her 633 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,680 S2: life and praying for this man's salvation. 634 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,759 S1: Right. There it is again. The struggle. Struggle is a 635 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,120 S1: sign that God is at work in your heart. Yeah. 636 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,719 S1: And thank you for calling that in. Somebody needed to 637 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,000 S1: hear that today. Bruce is in Illinois. Bruce, you're on 638 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,440 S1: with Doctor Neeley. Go ahead. 639 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,560 S3: Hi, Chris and Doctor Neeley. Um, I've been working on 640 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,400 S3: a list of 12 different actions or ways that a 641 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,439 S3: person who has agape love will treat all of his neighbors. 642 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,720 S3: And it'll take me maybe 15 seconds according to your, 643 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,400 S3: your operator that, uh, can you can I read it? 644 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,520 S1: Yeah. Go right ahead. 645 00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:09,430 S3: It's kindness, consideration, compassion. Civility. tolerance, understanding, patience, generosity, mercy, 646 00:42:09,710 --> 00:42:17,150 S3: or forbearance and forgiveness. And then lastly, shalom or peacefulness. 647 00:42:19,150 --> 00:42:20,990 S1: That's a great list. 648 00:42:22,710 --> 00:42:23,350 S3: I thought. 649 00:42:23,710 --> 00:42:26,710 S1: And it's easier to say like doctor, neither is easier 650 00:42:26,710 --> 00:42:29,590 S1: to say that list that off than it is. But 651 00:42:29,590 --> 00:42:34,430 S1: some of those, especially the two fours that you use forbearance. 652 00:42:34,469 --> 00:42:35,230 S3: Forbearance. 653 00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:41,830 S1: Forgiveness, and then mercy. Oh, patience. Doctor Neeley, respond to Bruce. 654 00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:46,509 S2: Well, God bless you, Bruce. God bless you, sir. Uh, 655 00:42:46,510 --> 00:42:51,310 S2: as I think about it, I forbearance, you know, that's 656 00:42:51,310 --> 00:42:56,950 S2: putting up, you know, nobody's perfect this side of heaven. Okay. 657 00:42:56,989 --> 00:43:04,210 S2: And putting up with the quirks, that the crudity sometimes 658 00:43:04,210 --> 00:43:08,969 S2: that are attached to the persons of people, you know, 659 00:43:09,250 --> 00:43:13,210 S2: you know, just, just just a little irritants that can 660 00:43:13,250 --> 00:43:17,930 S2: that can come up in life, um, requires the, the, 661 00:43:17,969 --> 00:43:20,650 S2: the oil of the Spirit of God in our soul 662 00:43:20,650 --> 00:43:24,850 S2: so that we are able to support, support one another. 663 00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:29,969 S2: My wife and I will be married 50 years next month, 664 00:43:30,730 --> 00:43:35,330 S2: and I want to thank her for her forbearance with me. Um, 665 00:43:35,370 --> 00:43:38,850 S2: not I mean, just I mean, I sometimes it was 666 00:43:38,890 --> 00:43:43,330 S2: very difficult being married to a preacher, a professor, uh, 667 00:43:43,930 --> 00:43:47,970 S2: a scholar when I'm in a classroom and everybody's taking 668 00:43:47,969 --> 00:43:50,969 S2: notes and then I come home, I come home and 669 00:43:50,969 --> 00:43:54,690 S2: I expect Stephanie to take notes too. And she's not 670 00:43:54,690 --> 00:43:58,810 S2: doing she's not doing that. She goes, she knew me 671 00:43:58,810 --> 00:44:00,640 S2: before I had a bachelor's degree. 672 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:03,520 S1: She just told me that when you said that, she 673 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,120 S1: said Amen really loud. 674 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,759 S2: You know? And so yeah, that that's a part of it, 675 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,240 S2: that that's a part of it, you know, that that 676 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,480 S2: that's a part of it. We and the Lord will give. 677 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,480 S2: And when we, when we don't, when we don't, we don't, 678 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,879 S2: we don't meet those standards. We look at one another 679 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,799 S2: and say, hey, I'm sorry about that, or I need 680 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,160 S2: you to forgive me. I should not have said that. 681 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,160 S2: That was too sharp. That that was that that was 682 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,759 S2: too sharp there. And you retract it right away. And 683 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,719 S2: that way you're able to keep the relationship strong. Yeah. 684 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,960 S1: Bruce, thank you for your call today. I wanted to 685 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,120 S1: get to the the whole social media thing and the 686 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,799 S1: world that we live in and the algorithms that are 687 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,960 S1: just stirring us up and making us fight. And I 688 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,400 S1: think that's, that's maybe where we can end. The world 689 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,000 S1: wants to stir you up, to be angry and to 690 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,980 S1: have revenge and vengeance and all of that. God wants 691 00:44:57,980 --> 00:45:01,939 S1: to stir us up to love one another, doesn't he? 692 00:45:01,980 --> 00:45:04,259 S1: Let's end right there. Tell me what you think of that. 693 00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:07,779 S2: Well, I think I think the church needs to revisit 694 00:45:07,780 --> 00:45:10,060 S2: how it talks about the failures of people on the 695 00:45:10,060 --> 00:45:13,180 S2: social media context, for starters. I think we need to 696 00:45:13,180 --> 00:45:16,339 S2: revisit that and think biblically about how we deal with 697 00:45:16,340 --> 00:45:18,819 S2: the sin of others. I think I mentioned to some 698 00:45:18,820 --> 00:45:22,140 S2: I think I mentioned Ali on her show a couple 699 00:45:22,180 --> 00:45:26,580 S2: of weeks last week, that hate and love deal differently 700 00:45:26,580 --> 00:45:29,980 S2: with the failures of others. Okay, hate is going to 701 00:45:29,980 --> 00:45:33,580 S2: make it worse. Hate is going to descend into vitriol. 702 00:45:33,620 --> 00:45:36,380 S2: Hate is just going to just it's just going to 703 00:45:36,420 --> 00:45:38,700 S2: add more hate. It's going to add more hate. And 704 00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:44,219 S2: there isn't anything redemptive about that at all. Uh, the 705 00:45:44,219 --> 00:45:49,419 S2: Church of Jesus Christ is to do everything in the 706 00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:55,500 S2: sphere and atmosphere of agape love. That means even when 707 00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:59,930 S2: people failed. We are going to approach that in a 708 00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:04,570 S2: way that honors Christ, deals with sin biblically, and takes 709 00:46:04,570 --> 00:46:09,330 S2: steps to promote the flourishing of the other. The idea 710 00:46:09,330 --> 00:46:13,129 S2: of cancel culture as it's being lived out in our 711 00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:18,010 S2: 21st century contemporary world is antithetical to the gospel. Gospel. 712 00:46:18,130 --> 00:46:23,649 S2: I thank God that God will not cancel anyone who 713 00:46:23,690 --> 00:46:26,410 S2: trusts Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. 714 00:46:26,530 --> 00:46:29,690 S1: Amen. See, we get to you talk with Doctor Neil. 715 00:46:29,690 --> 00:46:32,290 S1: You get to the gospel several times in the our 716 00:46:32,770 --> 00:46:36,010 S1: short time. Doctor Neeley. Thanks for spending this with us. 717 00:46:36,050 --> 00:46:38,410 S1: I commend to you the book A Love to Live 718 00:46:38,450 --> 00:46:43,210 S1: By Rediscovering Agape Love in Scripture. Go to Chris Fabry live.org. 719 00:46:43,250 --> 00:46:46,370 S1: Our program's production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody 720 00:46:46,370 --> 00:46:47,610 S1: Bible Institute.