WEBVTT - This Light of Mine | Dr. Joe Stowell 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:04.480 Are you concerned about the direction of American culture? Are 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:06.800 you angry about some of the battles we face in 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.799 today's society? Does it feel like the bad guys have 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:11.600 won and the good guys are losing? 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.520 How can you become credible with the gospel in the 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:18.200 face of all this opposition? Well, just try a few 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:20.920 good works to your neighbor, to somebody you work with, 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:23.520 your church, to the area that you live in, and 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.920 you just might see the light of Jesus Christ shining brightly. 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.599 Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.880 the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today, 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.360 former president of Moody Bible Institute and author Joe Stoll 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:44.840 will talk about how to live fully in an age 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:46.640 of anger and vitriol. 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.240 Our featured resource is the book This Light of Mind 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.440 Living Like Jesus in a non Jesus World. You can 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.200 find out more at our website. Building relationships. And Gary, 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.090 I know you have seen this phenomenon. As you travel 0:01:01.090 --> 0:01:03.050 around the country, there's a lot of anger, a lot 0:01:03.090 --> 0:01:06.970 of frustration with the ways that the culture is moving 0:01:07.290 --> 0:01:11.410 away from biblical morality. And we have to ask ourselves 0:01:11.410 --> 0:01:13.170 some really hard questions, don't we? 0:01:13.850 --> 0:01:16.050 Well, I think we do. Chris, you know, I've sometimes 0:01:16.090 --> 0:01:19.250 said it's like a civil war. We're having verbally, you know, 0:01:19.290 --> 0:01:22.450 shooting each other down if we disagree with each other 0:01:22.450 --> 0:01:24.729 and that sort of thing. So Doctor Joe Stoll has 0:01:24.730 --> 0:01:27.090 written this book on the whole topic, and so I'm 0:01:27.090 --> 0:01:29.170 excited about it. And I hope our listeners will stay 0:01:29.170 --> 0:01:31.490 tuned because this is going to be helpful to them. 0:01:31.890 --> 0:01:34.450 I think so too. And if you have somebody in 0:01:34.450 --> 0:01:37.010 your family that you disagreed with back in the during 0:01:37.010 --> 0:01:40.170 the holidays about the political thing, listen to what Doctor 0:01:40.170 --> 0:01:42.970 Joe Stoll says. He has a distinguished career in higher 0:01:42.970 --> 0:01:47.050 education and church leadership, served as president of Moody Bible 0:01:47.050 --> 0:01:51.290 Institute and then Cornerstone University, as well as pastoring several 0:01:51.290 --> 0:01:55.210 churches in the Midwest. He's written several books, including strength 0:01:55.210 --> 0:01:58.980 for the Journey and Simply Jesus. He and his wife 0:01:58.980 --> 0:02:03.820 Marty have three children, ten grandchildren. And our featured resource 0:02:03.820 --> 0:02:06.660 is that new book, This Light of Mine Living Like 0:02:06.660 --> 0:02:09.780 Jesus in a Non Jesus World. Find out more at 0:02:09.780 --> 0:02:10.899 Building Relationships. 0:02:12.419 --> 0:02:14.660 Well, Doctor Stoll, I've known you for a long while 0:02:14.660 --> 0:02:16.860 and really, really glad to have you with us today 0:02:16.860 --> 0:02:18.419 on building relationships. 0:02:18.700 --> 0:02:21.500 Yeah. Thank you Gary. So good to hear your voice. 0:02:21.540 --> 0:02:24.460 You know, I just I treasure the memories of our 0:02:24.460 --> 0:02:29.260 work together at Moody. And I certainly value the, you know, 0:02:29.300 --> 0:02:32.340 just the great impact your writing has had on the 0:02:32.340 --> 0:02:35.340 body of Christ. And my message is to. Because I 0:02:35.340 --> 0:02:39.740 use your love languages as some illustrations in my messages. 0:02:39.780 --> 0:02:42.580 So thanks for how you've been used to the Lord. 0:02:42.620 --> 0:02:45.300 Delighted to be on this program with you, my friend. 0:02:45.540 --> 0:02:48.980 Well thank you. So tell us more about the why 0:02:49.100 --> 0:02:51.620 of this book. I mean, this must have been something 0:02:51.620 --> 0:02:54.900 really troubling. And you were disturbed about and wanted to 0:02:54.900 --> 0:02:56.870 get a get a message out here. So tell us 0:02:56.870 --> 0:02:57.910 what motivated you. 0:02:58.270 --> 0:03:00.950 Yeah, well, actually troubled, I was troubled, and I am. 0:03:00.950 --> 0:03:04.470 I'm troubled about the gospel and our ability to do 0:03:04.470 --> 0:03:09.190 the gospel in such a hostile culture. Uh, the psalmist, 0:03:09.190 --> 0:03:12.550 Gary asks a real interesting question in Psalm 11 three. 0:03:13.350 --> 0:03:17.510 He says, if the foundations be destroyed, what can the 0:03:17.510 --> 0:03:22.590 righteous do? So what can we do? Because the foundations 0:03:22.990 --> 0:03:28.670 of biblical morality have been obviously destroyed. Like, for instance, 0:03:28.710 --> 0:03:31.350 what if you live next door to a neighbor who 0:03:31.350 --> 0:03:36.510 has signs all over his yard pushing progressive agendas that 0:03:36.510 --> 0:03:40.670 you know are anti-biblical? How do you build a gospel 0:03:40.670 --> 0:03:43.310 bridge to somebody like that when he sees you as 0:03:43.310 --> 0:03:47.270 a conservative Christian? How how do we do this? Or, 0:03:47.670 --> 0:03:50.750 you know, if your fellow coworkers in the office know 0:03:50.750 --> 0:03:54.330 your views on abortion and human sexuality Duality and think 0:03:54.330 --> 0:03:58.010 that you're somehow related to Attila the Hun. How do 0:03:58.010 --> 0:04:02.010 you build a bridge to the gospel, to people like that? 0:04:02.530 --> 0:04:05.770 And so the real issue is, how can the gospel 0:04:05.810 --> 0:04:10.850 through us be credible in a world gone wrong? That's 0:04:10.850 --> 0:04:16.210 the probing question. My heart. I do like First Chronicles 1232, Gary, 0:04:16.490 --> 0:04:18.930 where it says the men of Iskar, that was one 0:04:18.930 --> 0:04:22.330 of the tribes of Israel, understood their times and knew 0:04:22.370 --> 0:04:26.929 what to do. And thankfully, Jesus tells us what to do. 0:04:26.930 --> 0:04:29.810 So it's not like we're left without a plan. But 0:04:29.810 --> 0:04:32.250 my fear is that in not knowing what to do, 0:04:32.290 --> 0:04:35.409 we have actually hindered the gospel. Gary, do you remember 0:04:35.410 --> 0:04:37.370 when your kids were real little and you were doing 0:04:37.370 --> 0:04:41.010 a project and they just wanted to help, and they 0:04:41.010 --> 0:04:44.250 ended up getting in the way and making a bigger problem? 0:04:44.290 --> 0:04:46.810 You know, why is it that when they're 18, they're 0:04:46.810 --> 0:04:50.929 not willing to help? I don't fully understand that, but 0:04:50.970 --> 0:04:53.780 my fear is that not knowing what to do. We've 0:04:53.779 --> 0:04:56.539 been like little kids and that we've kind of messed 0:04:56.540 --> 0:05:01.219 up the project and actually hindered the gospel. But like 0:05:01.220 --> 0:05:05.739 I said, thankfully Jesus answers the question of Psalm 11 0:05:05.779 --> 0:05:09.460 three and has given us a way to establish the 0:05:09.500 --> 0:05:13.100 gospel credibility in our world, a world that really doesn't 0:05:13.100 --> 0:05:14.620 want to hear what we have to say. 0:05:15.339 --> 0:05:18.180 Well, I'm guessing that every Christian who's listening to us 0:05:18.180 --> 0:05:23.180 today is ready to hear because they're struggling also with this, 0:05:23.180 --> 0:05:27.060 and they're observing themselves and others. Now, you state in 0:05:27.060 --> 0:05:30.460 your book that evangelicals have hindered the spread of the 0:05:30.460 --> 0:05:36.020 gospel by wrong attitudes and wrong actions. So what are 0:05:36.020 --> 0:05:39.260 the attitudes and actions that concern you most? 0:05:39.700 --> 0:05:42.740 I think the attitudes that concern me most is how 0:05:42.740 --> 0:05:46.540 we relate to and how we respond to the fact 0:05:46.540 --> 0:05:49.340 that we've lost our culture to a paganism that has 0:05:49.339 --> 0:05:52.630 trashed all of the values that we hold dear. I mean, 0:05:52.630 --> 0:05:55.470 just make the list, right? A nation that has legalized 0:05:55.470 --> 0:06:00.350 same sex marriage. Think of the power of the LGBTQ movement. 0:06:00.950 --> 0:06:04.390 Think of gender issues. Think of pronoun issues. Think of 0:06:04.390 --> 0:06:09.590 bathroom issues. Think of a nation where 70% of our 0:06:09.630 --> 0:06:14.630 fellow Americans believe that abortion is a good thing. Some 0:06:14.630 --> 0:06:17.070 of them all the way up to the unborn at 0:06:17.070 --> 0:06:21.390 nine months. And think of the basic marginalization of those 0:06:21.390 --> 0:06:23.750 of us who hold biblical values. So how have we 0:06:23.750 --> 0:06:28.190 responded to that? Well, my observation in the last couple 0:06:28.190 --> 0:06:32.150 of decades is we basically responded with a sense of despair. 0:06:32.870 --> 0:06:35.750 I remember I was speaking to a relatively small group 0:06:35.750 --> 0:06:39.789 of people, and actually, when I preach, people usually fall asleep. 0:06:41.230 --> 0:06:43.350 And this occasion, there was a guy sitting on the 0:06:43.350 --> 0:06:46.310 front row, and I had the boldness to make the statement, 0:06:46.310 --> 0:06:49.479 I don't think we're going to get America back and 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.360 his body language just moved up. He almost stood up 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.679 out of his chair and he shouted out, oh no! 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:59.080 What will we do? And the despair in his voice 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:03.240 was just palatable. I think that, uh, a lot of 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.480 us are angry about this stuff. And in a real 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:10.040 fighting mood, a lot of us are hopeless. And basically, 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.240 the feeling that we're the losers, actually. When actually, if 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.400 you've read the last chapter, we're the winners, right? And 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:18.840 should be the last ones to express a sense of 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:25.000 despair and anger and hopelessness. And interestingly enough, this kind 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:28.840 of response, um, goes out to a lost world. And 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.680 guess what? There's a lot of anger in the lost world. 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:37.200 Lost people are in despair today. Lost people feel hopeless 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.360 about so many of the things in our culture. So 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:43.920 if we're like them, why would they want to have 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:48.810 what we have? If it's. It's just the same thing. Yeah. 0:07:48.970 --> 0:07:52.050 This really came home to me, uh, when I retired 0:07:52.050 --> 0:07:54.490 from my day job. I didn't retire from the kingdom, 0:07:54.490 --> 0:07:56.690 but Marty and I go, what are we going to do? 0:07:56.690 --> 0:07:59.970 And we decided, hey, let's go camping and let's go 0:07:59.970 --> 0:08:02.770 out to the let's go out to the national parks 0:08:02.770 --> 0:08:06.690 out west. And, Gary, we'd never camped a day in 0:08:06.690 --> 0:08:11.090 our lives. I mean, this was like a high risk adventure. 0:08:11.530 --> 0:08:14.490 But anyway, so we got a camper, and we've loved camping. 0:08:14.490 --> 0:08:17.610 And most people who camp know that in campgrounds, they 0:08:17.610 --> 0:08:19.730 have shower places where you can go and wash the 0:08:19.730 --> 0:08:23.890 wilderness off. And I remember one morning walking down toward 0:08:23.890 --> 0:08:26.890 the shower place where the showers were, and there was 0:08:26.890 --> 0:08:29.450 a guy in front of me with a towel and oh, no, 0:08:29.450 --> 0:08:32.050 he's going to beat me to the shower. And we 0:08:32.050 --> 0:08:35.410 both walked in and he stopped to shave. In my advantage. 0:08:35.410 --> 0:08:38.130 I went around to him back to where the showers were, 0:08:38.450 --> 0:08:41.330 and there were two shower stalls, and there was another 0:08:41.330 --> 0:08:44.460 man getting ready to get into his shower stall, Aristotle 0:08:44.820 --> 0:08:47.579 and I greeted him, and then he just launched. He said, 0:08:47.580 --> 0:08:49.980 do you know what I used to bring my little 0:08:49.980 --> 0:08:52.819 girl in here for a shower? I'd never do that. Today, 0:08:52.820 --> 0:08:55.380 in the day of trans and all this trans stuff. 0:08:55.380 --> 0:08:57.660 And then we both kind of stepped into our showers, 0:08:57.660 --> 0:08:59.819 and the wall between us went up about seven feet. 0:08:59.820 --> 0:09:01.900 So it was open above. And I could hear him 0:09:01.940 --> 0:09:06.300 and he just kept going. Just that same sex marriage problems. 0:09:06.380 --> 0:09:09.980 How come the LGBTQ movement has so much power? We 0:09:10.020 --> 0:09:12.619 never get a month. How come they never get a month? 0:09:12.780 --> 0:09:15.020 Talked about the pronouns. And then he dragged a couple 0:09:15.059 --> 0:09:18.740 of his politicians in and he couldn't stand. And it 0:09:18.740 --> 0:09:21.620 was like, oh my goodness, I mean. And then he 0:09:21.620 --> 0:09:24.819 said this. He said, I go to a great church. 0:09:25.500 --> 0:09:28.700 He said, and my pastor's all over this kind of stuff. 0:09:28.700 --> 0:09:32.420 He has zero tolerance for this. And I thought, hey, 0:09:32.420 --> 0:09:34.700 he's a brother. And I'm going to kind of lighten 0:09:34.700 --> 0:09:37.380 up the atmosphere here. And I said, hey, yeah, but 0:09:37.380 --> 0:09:40.300 I've read the last chapter, I know who wins. And 0:09:40.300 --> 0:09:42.340 he said, yeah, so do I, but we got to 0:09:42.380 --> 0:09:48.240 fight about this stuff. And I thought, and, you know, actually, 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:52.000 I'm concerned about the same things. So are you. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.920 But it was his tone. It was his. But then 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.400 here's what happened. I stepped out of my shower, and 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.040 this guy who had beat me to the shower room, 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:05.320 who shaved, had walked down. He has his towel folded 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.720 over his arm, waiting to get in, in queue. He 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.440 heard the rant. Mhm. And Gary I was ashamed for 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.280 the gospel. Mhm. You know I could what would I 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.760 have said to this guy like hey you want to 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.559 be a Christian. You could be just like us you know. 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.280 You know that was going to be the big nonstarter right. 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.439 And so it's these attitudes of how we've responded, I 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.800 think have damaged the credibility of the gospel in our world. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.520 And the actions, as you said, what about the attitudes 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:40.560 and actions? Is that we've politicized our faith by marrying 0:10:40.770 --> 0:10:44.490 Jesus into the political systems of our day. So we 0:10:44.490 --> 0:10:47.810 as evangelicals basically are not seen as a movement for 0:10:47.809 --> 0:10:52.570 the kingdom of Christ, but as an opposing political force. Yeah. 0:10:52.610 --> 0:10:55.530 And if we are the political enemy of all the 0:10:55.530 --> 0:11:00.329 progressives and by the way, I think Jesus wants progressives 0:11:00.330 --> 0:11:02.850 to be saved right to God. The gospel needs to 0:11:02.850 --> 0:11:06.290 go to them, too, you know. But, you know, if 0:11:06.290 --> 0:11:10.329 we're seen as this opposing political force, as the enemy, 0:11:10.370 --> 0:11:12.850 nobody on the other side will want what we have. 0:11:13.050 --> 0:11:16.809 Since we're the enemy. And so Jesus wants us to 0:11:16.850 --> 0:11:19.290 put the welcome mat out of the gospel for everyone. 0:11:19.330 --> 0:11:22.410 Even progressives. And I think we've done a lot of 0:11:22.410 --> 0:11:25.609 damage there. So those in my mind are the attitudes 0:11:25.610 --> 0:11:29.250 and the actions that have hindered the gospel in our day. 0:11:30.010 --> 0:11:32.209 You know, Joe, I was reflecting back on my own 0:11:32.210 --> 0:11:35.290 life as you were talking as to where we are today. 0:11:36.130 --> 0:11:39.580 And I remember when I was in high school, The 0:11:39.580 --> 0:11:44.060 Bible was taught in my school. Old Testament survey. New 0:11:44.059 --> 0:11:49.660 Testament survey. In in the public school. And every morning 0:11:50.100 --> 0:11:57.179 the principal prayed over the P.A. system. And I was thinking. 0:11:57.179 --> 0:11:57.660 Wow. 0:11:57.860 --> 0:11:59.740 We have come a long ways. 0:12:00.220 --> 0:12:02.380 Yeah, we really have come a long way. 0:12:02.500 --> 0:12:05.060 Well, and I think what you were talking about earlier 0:12:05.260 --> 0:12:09.100 is so true that that many non-Christians now simply view 0:12:09.100 --> 0:12:13.340 Christians as a political force, you know, rather than and 0:12:13.340 --> 0:12:16.100 don't even associate us with, with the gospel. It's just 0:12:16.100 --> 0:12:18.460 those are those people that are, you know, against this 0:12:18.460 --> 0:12:21.140 and this and this. So this is an important topic. 0:12:21.140 --> 0:12:23.900 I'm really glad that you wrote this book. So, Joe, 0:12:23.900 --> 0:12:27.620 we were discussing the whole issue of, you know, the 0:12:27.660 --> 0:12:31.339 population today seeing Christians as just a political force. Can 0:12:31.340 --> 0:12:33.260 you give us some examples of that? 0:12:33.980 --> 0:12:38.910 Yeah, right. Well, when our national evangelical leaders endorse candidates. 0:12:39.790 --> 0:12:42.270 When we open political rallies with the prayer by a 0:12:42.270 --> 0:12:45.270 local pastor who prays for the success of a candidate 0:12:45.270 --> 0:12:48.829 and the defeat of the other candidate. When we platform 0:12:48.830 --> 0:12:53.910 preferred political candidates at our major national gatherings, when we 0:12:53.950 --> 0:12:58.949 sing worship songs, at political rallies, when we wear T-shirts 0:12:58.950 --> 0:13:03.309 and caps that combined Jesus with our political preference, then 0:13:03.309 --> 0:13:07.110 they get the impression, you know that Jesus is a 0:13:07.110 --> 0:13:10.230 part of this thing. I remember Marty and I were 0:13:10.230 --> 0:13:12.910 driving down the road, the country road in Louisiana. We 0:13:12.950 --> 0:13:15.310 drove by this beautiful ranch, and it had this big 0:13:15.309 --> 0:13:18.150 white fence out in front and over the driveway was 0:13:18.150 --> 0:13:22.069 this banner, Jesus, our only Hope. That was so good. 0:13:22.230 --> 0:13:25.750 But down the rest of the fence were flags touting 0:13:26.070 --> 0:13:31.110 their preferred candidate. And I thought the average driver driving 0:13:31.110 --> 0:13:33.829 here thinks that. Jesus. And that goes together. And I 0:13:33.830 --> 0:13:37.199 also thought, Gary, What a powerful thing it would have 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.599 been if it was just the banner over the driveway. 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.160 Not married to the rest of the political stuff. There 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.000 have been so powerful. January 6th. I thought you we 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.520 all saw signs of people, you know, running against the 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:54.680 Capitol building with crosses and having Jesus on their sweatshirts, 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:58.959 and I was so burdened by that. So it's no wonder, 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.719 by the way, a recent survey says that evangelicals are 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.319 now seen by American adults through a political lens. And 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.000 here's the bad news. We have branded Jesus with a 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:11.559 political identity. 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:12.520 Hmm. 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:17.200 That's the really bad news. And he doesn't carry anybody 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:22.960 else's brand. You know, he is never Jesus. Plus, and 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.560 I've often wondered if when witnessing to someone, they might say, well, 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:28.800 but do I have to become a right wing patriot 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.160 to close the deal? So I think there's a lot 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.530 of evidence to the fact that the gospel has been 0:14:35.530 --> 0:14:40.930 hindered by our political infusion. Of Christ and politics. 0:14:41.810 --> 0:14:44.210 Now, I think some of our listeners may well be 0:14:44.210 --> 0:14:47.610 asking when they hear you. Say that. But aren't we 0:14:47.650 --> 0:14:50.490 supposed to be an influence, you know, and seek to 0:14:50.530 --> 0:14:52.609 influence the morality of our culture? 0:14:53.050 --> 0:14:57.250 Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Thank you for saying that. But we 0:14:57.250 --> 0:14:59.250 need to do it in the name of Jesus, not 0:14:59.250 --> 0:15:01.010 in the name of a political candidate. 0:15:01.450 --> 0:15:01.810 Hmm. 0:15:01.850 --> 0:15:03.290 But we need to do it in the name of 0:15:03.290 --> 0:15:06.770 the kingdom of Christ. You know, we are here bringing 0:15:06.770 --> 0:15:11.210 morality to you in the name of Jesus. And not 0:15:11.210 --> 0:15:14.730 in a political party, but of the kingdom of Christ. So, 0:15:15.050 --> 0:15:18.330 you know, it's all a matter of, uh, keeping Jesus 0:15:18.330 --> 0:15:23.410 central focused and not compromised, really, with all the political 0:15:23.410 --> 0:15:24.730 systems of our day. 0:15:25.410 --> 0:15:29.250 Yeah, well, let's talk about the whole political world. You know, 0:15:29.250 --> 0:15:33.350 what are some legitimate ways for evangelicals to influence our 0:15:33.350 --> 0:15:35.550 culture through the political scene? 0:15:35.590 --> 0:15:39.950 No. Yeah. A great question, Gary, because, you know, interestingly enough, 0:15:39.950 --> 0:15:45.310 the early church thrived. They flourished in a very hostile culture, 0:15:45.350 --> 0:15:48.430 far more hostile than ours. And the gospel went forth 0:15:48.430 --> 0:15:51.190 with strength. And in my book, I do a lot 0:15:51.190 --> 0:15:53.710 of contrast to what was their secret. How did they 0:15:53.710 --> 0:15:57.070 do this? But one thing they didn't have, they couldn't 0:15:57.070 --> 0:16:01.830 vote the emperor out. I mean, they had zero political clout. 0:16:02.110 --> 0:16:05.350 So we do have some advantages that I think are 0:16:05.350 --> 0:16:08.390 very legitimate. And as good citizens, you know, we should 0:16:08.390 --> 0:16:12.990 be responsible for that. Obviously, one is we can vote, right? 0:16:12.990 --> 0:16:15.790 And we can cast our vote for candidates who support 0:16:15.790 --> 0:16:19.990 our values and who advance morality in our world. If 0:16:19.990 --> 0:16:23.670 there are any there running for that, we can volunteer. 0:16:24.270 --> 0:16:27.550 We can run for school boards. We can run for 0:16:27.550 --> 0:16:30.200 political office. I have a friend who got so fed 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.880 up with all this stuff that he ran for Congress 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.000 and he won. He is now in his fifth term 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.920 in the US House, making a great difference for Christ 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:43.520 in that not just politically, but spiritually as well. We 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.520 can support candidates. We can pray for revival. We can 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.240 support candidates financially. These are all legitimate privileges of living 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:55.040 as a good citizen. Uh, but the difference is, is 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.200 that in the macro sense, we are not making a 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:02.920 state for evangelicalism. It's a personal, private thing. And I 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.480 think these are the kind of things that Christians ought 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:06.600 to get involved with. 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.280 Yeah, I'm encouraged when I see that happening. You know, 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.400 in our in our local scene here where I live, 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:14.440 you know, to see people running for the school board 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.359 and that sort of thing, because, you know, we bring 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:20.399 our values just like the non-Christian brings their values to 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:24.040 a political setting. We bring our values to a political setting. So, 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:25.520 you know, we have a voice. 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:30.010 But the voice can't be shrill. Yeah, I think that's important. 0:17:30.250 --> 0:17:33.130 I think the voice has to be full of grace, 0:17:33.170 --> 0:17:38.210 strength and courage. But at the same time, first, and 0:17:38.210 --> 0:17:40.330 we may want to talk about this a little later. 0:17:40.330 --> 0:17:43.129 And it can't be a voice that goes against the people. 0:17:43.170 --> 0:17:46.450 It's got to go against the policies, right? Because people 0:17:46.450 --> 0:17:47.889 are precious to Christ. 0:17:48.250 --> 0:17:52.369 Yes, absolutely. Now, in your book, you contrast the difference 0:17:52.369 --> 0:17:57.290 between two kingdoms, our earthly kingdom and the kingdom of Christ. 0:17:58.090 --> 0:17:59.570 Why is this important? 0:18:00.450 --> 0:18:03.970 Well, it's so important. When Christ came, he came into 0:18:04.010 --> 0:18:08.530 a political environment where the Jews and the Jewish leaders 0:18:08.530 --> 0:18:12.730 thought that when the Messiah arrives, he's going to arise 0:18:12.770 --> 0:18:17.010 as a political conqueror, overthrow the oppressive regime of Rome, 0:18:17.170 --> 0:18:19.649 and sit on the throne of David. In other words, 0:18:19.650 --> 0:18:24.210 to actually Gary restore Israel to its former glory. That 0:18:24.210 --> 0:18:27.940 was their hope. And Jesus came and he claimed to 0:18:27.940 --> 0:18:31.899 be their man, but he was a surprise. You know, 0:18:31.940 --> 0:18:35.619 it's interesting, um, after his baptism and temptation in the 0:18:35.619 --> 0:18:39.180 wilderness and to kick off his ministry, he didn't run 0:18:39.180 --> 0:18:43.460 up to Jerusalem and get connected with all the political 0:18:43.460 --> 0:18:47.780 powers of Judaism to plot the overthrow of Rome. He 0:18:47.780 --> 0:18:52.700 headed down country, and he recruited 12 commoners to go 0:18:52.740 --> 0:18:56.500 with him into the lives of people. And if you 0:18:56.500 --> 0:18:59.660 read Matthew and you read Luke so many times, this 0:18:59.660 --> 0:19:04.140 is the commentary. And he healed the sick and proclaimed 0:19:04.140 --> 0:19:07.219 the kingdom of God. He healed the sick and proclaimed 0:19:07.220 --> 0:19:09.820 the kingdom of God. Now all of a sudden, we 0:19:09.820 --> 0:19:12.940 have introduced a whole new kingdom, not the earthly kingdom, 0:19:12.940 --> 0:19:15.780 not the overthrow of Rome, but the Kingdom of God. 0:19:15.780 --> 0:19:18.420 And it's clear that he came not to overthrow an 0:19:18.420 --> 0:19:22.100 earthly kingdom, but to launch a new kingdom, the Kingdom 0:19:22.100 --> 0:19:25.670 of Christ. And the And the masses loved it. I mean, 0:19:25.710 --> 0:19:29.830 they followed him and and he told parables about his kingdom, 0:19:29.830 --> 0:19:33.030 and he recruited people to follow him into the kingdom. 0:19:33.070 --> 0:19:35.430 He told us how to live in his kingdom in 0:19:35.430 --> 0:19:38.470 the sermon on the Mount. And he was all about 0:19:38.510 --> 0:19:42.790 launching a new kingdom. And he called his disciples to 0:19:42.830 --> 0:19:46.629 help him advance the kingdom. And he calls us to 0:19:46.670 --> 0:19:51.230 live to advance his kingdom as well. And I think 0:19:51.270 --> 0:19:55.110 part of the thing that concerns me is that I 0:19:55.109 --> 0:19:58.669 think a lot of us well intended, for sure. I 0:19:58.670 --> 0:20:01.070 want to be gentle here. We just didn't know what 0:20:01.070 --> 0:20:06.590 to do. Well intended. Have more passion to overthrow an 0:20:06.590 --> 0:20:09.869 earthly kingdom and to restore its glory than we do 0:20:09.910 --> 0:20:13.790 advance to advance the kingdom of Christ. And I think 0:20:13.790 --> 0:20:16.670 we need to be called to his kingdom. I love it, 0:20:16.670 --> 0:20:20.110 and in Colossians it says that God has transplanted us 0:20:20.109 --> 0:20:23.440 out of the domain of darkness. I love that phrase 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.879 domain of darkness. It's kind of like Tolkien, isn't it? 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:31.280 The domain of darkness. That's the earthly kingdom transfer into 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.239 the kingdom of his dear sons. We are citizens of 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.360 a different kingdom. We are called to advance his kingdom. 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.239 And that kingdom, the advance of that kingdom is the 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:44.000 gospel of His Son. To liberate lost souls and welcome 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.359 their weary hearts to Jesus Christ. And so I think 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.080 once we understand there's two kingdoms going on here, we 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:55.640 have to prioritize his kingdom and not do anything to 0:20:55.680 --> 0:21:00.120 damage people's welcome into the kingdom of Christ. 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.800 Mhm. And we are not the ones who are going 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:08.879 to establish his kingdom on earth, right? That's his prerogative. When? 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:09.240 Yeah. 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:10.959 When he does that. 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.679 Yeah. And I think exactly. That's such a really good point, 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:19.760 because the day will come when he will establish finally 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.220 his kingdom. You know, we're a part of that kingdom now, 0:21:23.340 --> 0:21:25.899 and the culture of the kingdom is how we live 0:21:25.900 --> 0:21:28.860 and welcome others to the culture of that kingdom. But 0:21:28.859 --> 0:21:33.260 just read it. You too, love revelation 21. You know 0:21:33.260 --> 0:21:36.740 when the day is coming, when he will conquer, finally 0:21:36.780 --> 0:21:41.060 put sin and Satan away forever and welcome us into 0:21:41.100 --> 0:21:43.500 his kingdom. And he will be our God, and we 0:21:43.500 --> 0:21:46.659 will be our people, and we will wipe away every. 0:21:46.700 --> 0:21:49.100 He will wipe away every tear, and there will be 0:21:49.100 --> 0:21:52.700 no more death and no more dying, and all things 0:21:52.700 --> 0:21:55.580 will be made new. Then we will know the fullness 0:21:55.580 --> 0:21:58.180 of his kingdom. But right now we're kind of in 0:21:58.220 --> 0:22:02.619 the entry stage of his kingdom. And like I said, 0:22:02.980 --> 0:22:05.939 we're called to advance that and to do nothing to 0:22:05.980 --> 0:22:09.220 damage the potential of the kingdom of Christ going into 0:22:09.220 --> 0:22:10.180 people's hearts. 0:22:10.540 --> 0:22:13.060 Yeah. You know, one of the things I hear you 0:22:13.100 --> 0:22:18.379 saying is that we're here to invite people into his kingdom. 0:22:18.380 --> 0:22:22.950 Now this is far more important. Opening the door for 0:22:22.950 --> 0:22:27.470 them to come into his kingdom than it is whatever 0:22:27.470 --> 0:22:31.350 happens politically in our country or any country. We're there 0:22:31.350 --> 0:22:34.030 to help people come into his kingdom, right? 0:22:34.390 --> 0:22:39.190 Amen. Exactly. And we should avoid anything that damages that potential. 0:22:43.910 --> 0:22:48.030 You're listening to the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast. 0:22:48.030 --> 0:22:51.310 If you go to Building Relationships, you'll find our featured 0:22:51.310 --> 0:22:54.710 resource by our guest, Doctor Joe Stoll. His book is 0:22:54.710 --> 0:22:57.909 titled This Light of Mine Living Like Jesus in a 0:22:57.950 --> 0:23:01.630 non Jesus World. Find that in more ways to strengthen 0:23:01.630 --> 0:23:04.230 your relationships there at building relationships. 0:23:07.270 --> 0:23:09.869 So Joe, you state that as Christians, we need to 0:23:09.910 --> 0:23:14.070 stand with confidence and courage for biblical morality in areas 0:23:14.070 --> 0:23:18.560 such as human sexuality and the sanctity of life. But 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:22.000 you go on to say that it must be coupled 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:25.120 with compassion. What does that look like? 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.640 Mhm. And this I think this is one of the 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:33.240 tougher assignments Gary, because we need to be courageous in 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.840 standing for biblical truth and biblical morality. And we need 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:41.320 to have confidence that we're standing on the right side 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:44.960 and not be intimidated. But I think the problem is 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:48.879 that we're not compassionate. Compassion reaches out to the needs 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:52.320 of people. Right. So I think it's easy to appropriately 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:57.200 oppose policies that contradict our values, and at the same time, 0:23:57.240 --> 0:24:00.359 see the people who are propagating the policies through a 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:04.439 negative lens like these are evil people. They need to 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:07.719 be shunned. They need to be defeated. And by the way, 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.800 I think parenthetically, I think we need to understand something. 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:17.050 No progressive who's advancing the Paganistic agenda today. Gary wakes 0:24:17.050 --> 0:24:18.770 up in the morning and says, I need to do 0:24:18.770 --> 0:24:20.810 something really evil today. 0:24:21.290 --> 0:24:21.690 Hmm. 0:24:22.290 --> 0:24:25.250 They think this is progress. They think they're a part 0:24:25.250 --> 0:24:28.210 of a whole new world order. And all of these 0:24:28.210 --> 0:24:31.889 things make life better. You know, there's no moral restrictions. 0:24:31.930 --> 0:24:37.210 They they're excited about the future of the world, globally speaking. 0:24:37.650 --> 0:24:41.130 With the emergence of this, this is their agenda. So 0:24:42.210 --> 0:24:47.169 they're not intentionally evil. What they're doing is propagating evil agendas, 0:24:47.170 --> 0:24:49.770 but they're not intentionally evil. But we tend to think 0:24:49.770 --> 0:24:52.370 that they are, and we tend to think that they 0:24:52.369 --> 0:24:55.409 should be shunned and they should be divided. We start 0:24:55.410 --> 0:24:58.370 taking it personally to see them as the enemy. Now, 0:24:58.369 --> 0:25:00.929 here's if we're going to live like Jesus in a 0:25:00.930 --> 0:25:05.370 non Jesus world. As my book cover says, we need 0:25:05.369 --> 0:25:08.770 to know that Jesus never saw people as the enemy. 0:25:09.609 --> 0:25:13.050 None of them. Actually, the only harsh words he had 0:25:13.050 --> 0:25:16.979 to say where the hypocrisy of the religious leaders and 0:25:16.980 --> 0:25:20.780 the chief priests who had compromised themselves politically with Rome. 0:25:20.820 --> 0:25:24.939 I mean, that was his most harsh language. He never 0:25:24.940 --> 0:25:28.660 saw people as the enemy. In fact, it's interesting. And 0:25:28.700 --> 0:25:32.340 this was a shock to the average good quote unquote, 0:25:32.380 --> 0:25:36.820 Jewish mind when they asked him, who is my neighbor? Right. 0:25:36.859 --> 0:25:40.380 Remember that? Yes. And Jesus tells the story of to 0:25:40.420 --> 0:25:42.939 prove who is the neighbor. Guess who he chooses as 0:25:42.940 --> 0:25:47.500 the hero of the story. A Samaritan. Mhm. The enemy 0:25:47.500 --> 0:25:49.940 of the people. And we don't, you know, we probably 0:25:49.940 --> 0:25:53.540 don't know about the geopolitics of Israel and Samaria in 0:25:53.540 --> 0:25:57.060 that day. But the Samaritans were the hated evil people. 0:25:57.060 --> 0:26:00.060 They were seen as the enemy of the temple, the 0:26:00.060 --> 0:26:04.660 enemy of Israel. And Jesus chooses an enemy to be 0:26:04.660 --> 0:26:07.740 the hero. The woman at the well. He risks his 0:26:07.740 --> 0:26:10.860 whole reputation in Jerusalem to stick around and talk to 0:26:10.900 --> 0:26:13.870 a woman. No rabbi would have ever done that. And 0:26:13.869 --> 0:26:16.830 she was a Samaritan. And he stays in the city 0:26:16.830 --> 0:26:22.109 and leads a revival in that enemy city. The centurion, 0:26:22.150 --> 0:26:26.270 the Roman centurion, who by faith asks for healing. And 0:26:26.270 --> 0:26:29.350 he says, you have more faith than anyone I know 0:26:29.350 --> 0:26:33.190 in Israel. So Jesus never saw people as the enemy? 0:26:33.710 --> 0:26:34.150 Yeah. 0:26:34.190 --> 0:26:37.350 And he surprised the religious leaders of his day by 0:26:37.350 --> 0:26:41.229 hanging out with sinners. I love Luke 15. This is 0:26:41.230 --> 0:26:45.030 one of my most favorite stories. He's hanging out with 0:26:45.030 --> 0:26:48.310 tax collectors and sinners. And Gary, you and I know 0:26:48.350 --> 0:26:51.710 that they were low guys on the totem pole of morality, right? 0:26:51.750 --> 0:26:55.350 They were the worst kind of people. Jews knew tax 0:26:55.350 --> 0:27:00.590 collectors and sinners. And the Pharisees, it says, are watching 0:27:00.590 --> 0:27:04.670 this and they're murmuring with each other. Ah, this man 0:27:05.070 --> 0:27:08.389 hangs out with tax collectors and sinners and even eats 0:27:08.390 --> 0:27:12.399 with them, Because it was anathema that he would and 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:15.639 I when Jesus. I wonder if when Jesus overheard them 0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:19.800 grumbling like that, he said, oh, oh my. I don't 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:21.600 know what I was doing. I'm so sorry. I'm out 0:27:21.640 --> 0:27:26.000 of here, you know? He stayed and he actually said, 0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:29.040 you know why I stay with people like this? And 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:32.760 he tells the story of a lost sheep, a lost coin, 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:36.679 and a lost son. A lamb to a farmer was 0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:39.520 a thing of value. The coin to this woman was 0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:43.640 of value. The son of value to his father. That 0:27:43.640 --> 0:27:47.560 the lost have value to God. And because he has 0:27:47.560 --> 0:27:51.639 suffered a significant loss when Adam fell in the garden, 0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:55.880 and the whole Metanarrative Scripture is the redemptive power of 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:59.920 Christ to bring the lost back to himself. And Jesus 0:27:59.920 --> 0:28:03.040 is hanging out with the wrong kind of people on purpose, 0:28:03.480 --> 0:28:06.679 because he came to seek and save that which was lost. 0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:09.659 So we have to be very careful. We need to 0:28:09.660 --> 0:28:12.899 be against the policies, but not the people. But we 0:28:12.900 --> 0:28:16.340 need to be like Jesus to these people, praying for them, 0:28:16.340 --> 0:28:19.700 seeking ways. And by the way, Jesus, this whole basic 0:28:19.700 --> 0:28:23.859 plan for reaching the lost in this world shows a 0:28:23.859 --> 0:28:27.820 way to get that done, actually. But so important. Marty 0:28:27.820 --> 0:28:31.300 and I have a friend, a lady who had a ministry. 0:28:31.340 --> 0:28:35.380 Get this to strippers. All right. In the nightclubs, in 0:28:35.380 --> 0:28:38.740 the strip joints. So, you know what's a nice girl 0:28:38.740 --> 0:28:41.940 like you doing in a place like this? You know, 0:28:41.980 --> 0:28:43.700 and I'm sure a lot of people are. Well, why 0:28:43.740 --> 0:28:46.100 are you doing it? But she would go into the clubs, 0:28:46.540 --> 0:28:50.380 meet these girls, take them cookies, get acquainted, take them 0:28:50.380 --> 0:28:54.700 away on weekends, take them on a retreat. She had 0:28:54.700 --> 0:28:57.300 several of those girls to the Lord who were liberated 0:28:57.300 --> 0:29:01.180 from the pimps that had them in bondage, who now 0:29:01.380 --> 0:29:04.780 have life in Jesus Christ, have a real job and 0:29:04.780 --> 0:29:08.270 a good life. You know, and I'm saying thank God 0:29:08.270 --> 0:29:11.990 for her. You know, she's like Jesus, she's hanging out 0:29:11.990 --> 0:29:15.670 with the wrong kind of people. Yeah, because she came 0:29:15.670 --> 0:29:18.390 to seek and save that which was. That's just one example. 0:29:18.390 --> 0:29:22.030 But I think that, uh, we need to take a 0:29:22.030 --> 0:29:24.750 stand on issues of morality, but we have to keep 0:29:24.750 --> 0:29:28.150 it in the policy world and love people in a 0:29:28.150 --> 0:29:31.630 way that will offer to bring even. Maybe I have 0:29:31.630 --> 0:29:33.910 time for just one more. I told you about my 0:29:33.910 --> 0:29:37.550 friend who ran for Congress, and he. He works in 0:29:37.550 --> 0:29:42.430 a bipartisan prayer group. And every once in a while, 0:29:42.470 --> 0:29:46.709 one of the most liberal progressive Congress ladies comes that 0:29:46.710 --> 0:29:50.790 she's a headliner for her progressive agenda. They ask her 0:29:50.830 --> 0:29:55.510 what her needs are, they pray for her, and she says, 0:29:55.550 --> 0:29:58.550 you know, when she leaves, she always stops me with 0:29:58.550 --> 0:30:00.790 the tear in her eyes and says, thank you so 0:30:00.790 --> 0:30:04.680 much for praying for me. Yeah, my guess is she's 0:30:04.720 --> 0:30:07.960 a lot closer to Christ today than if all she 0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:11.560 had was the. The vindictiveness she hears on the floor 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:16.520 of the House of Representatives. Because somebody cares about her. 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:22.800 Yeah. Powerful. Powerful. You discussed earlier a bit of this, 0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:26.880 but that the early church living under the oppression of 0:30:26.880 --> 0:30:30.680 Rome were a was a hopeful church, that the early 0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:34.120 Christians had a real sense of hope. How do you 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:37.320 define biblical hope? And how can we hold on to 0:30:37.360 --> 0:30:38.320 that that hope. 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:42.240 Mhm. Mhm. Well hope is a kingdom value. So if 0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:44.480 we're going to be kingdom people we have to be 0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:49.920 hopeful people. Sadly a recent survey of Americans revealed that. 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:53.400 Get a load of this. Only 10% of Americans see 0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:55.160 evangelicals as hopeful. 0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:56.120 Hmm. 0:30:56.480 --> 0:31:00.600 Now how can we possibly have credibility and and be 0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:03.730 attractive to a world when they see us like this. 0:31:04.130 --> 0:31:07.210 I get the fact that hope is hard. I mean, 0:31:07.250 --> 0:31:09.450 we've got a lot of reasons for losing hope on 0:31:09.450 --> 0:31:12.370 a regular basis. When our candidates lose an election, when 0:31:12.370 --> 0:31:15.970 the Supreme Court issues a decision that violates our values, 0:31:15.970 --> 0:31:18.890 we lose hope. When we feel marginalized, we lose hope. 0:31:19.090 --> 0:31:22.290 When we read headlines about the advance of progressive agenda, 0:31:22.290 --> 0:31:25.690 we lose hope. But early Christians, in spite of the 0:31:25.690 --> 0:31:28.730 hostility of their culture, they were seen as hopeful people. 0:31:28.770 --> 0:31:33.210 You know why? Because their hope was not in earthside things. 0:31:34.010 --> 0:31:37.410 Their hope was in Christ, was in the Lord, and 0:31:37.410 --> 0:31:41.090 his promise that he would never leave them or forsake them. 0:31:41.610 --> 0:31:45.610 His promise that he was coming again. His promise that 0:31:45.610 --> 0:31:48.450 the best is yet to come. These were people of 0:31:48.450 --> 0:31:52.650 the of the long view, and it gave them hope 0:31:52.650 --> 0:31:55.890 in the midst of a hostile world. Talking to a 0:31:55.890 --> 0:31:58.090 lady the other day, and she was so happy about 0:31:58.090 --> 0:32:02.660 the November election, and she said, now we can hope again. 0:32:02.780 --> 0:32:05.860 And I get exactly what she was saying. I get 0:32:05.900 --> 0:32:09.220 what she was saying, Gary. But the point is, she's 0:32:09.220 --> 0:32:10.820 got her hope in the wrong place. 0:32:11.020 --> 0:32:11.500 Yeah. 0:32:11.740 --> 0:32:14.740 You know, if if our hope is in politicians and 0:32:14.740 --> 0:32:18.780 political gain or whatever, what happens four years from now 0:32:18.780 --> 0:32:22.220 when we lose it now and we're hopeless again, right? 0:32:22.220 --> 0:32:25.180 Like we're yo yo. Hope people hope today. Don't hope 0:32:25.180 --> 0:32:29.180 tomorrow hope. But as the psalmist says, we do not 0:32:29.180 --> 0:32:32.580 put our hope in chariots and horses, but we put 0:32:32.580 --> 0:32:35.540 our hope in the Lord our God. Yeah. And those 0:32:35.540 --> 0:32:40.500 early Christians had unwavering hope in the Lord their God, 0:32:40.980 --> 0:32:42.940 because there were people of the long view and they 0:32:42.940 --> 0:32:46.100 believed that God was faithful. He would keep his promise 0:32:46.660 --> 0:32:49.660 and that biblical hope is not like our normal hope. 0:32:49.660 --> 0:32:51.820 We say, boy, I hope it doesn't rain on vacation. 0:32:51.820 --> 0:32:56.220 I hope the Cubs win another game nowadays. I hope 0:32:56.700 --> 0:33:00.510 you know those are the maybes. But Hebrews 11 one says, 0:33:00.510 --> 0:33:03.310 our hope is in a certainty of the faithfulness of 0:33:03.310 --> 0:33:06.070 God to keep his promises to us, that he will 0:33:06.070 --> 0:33:08.430 never leave us or forsake us, that he will be 0:33:08.430 --> 0:33:11.230 with us. He will come again, and he will take 0:33:11.230 --> 0:33:14.470 us home to heaven. And that makes us hopeful people. 0:33:14.470 --> 0:33:18.310 And in a hopeless world that could be attractive to somebody. 0:33:18.350 --> 0:33:20.310 I mean, it just might have the opportunity to share 0:33:20.310 --> 0:33:23.110 the gospel. Why? How are you so hopeful? I thought 0:33:23.110 --> 0:33:24.230 you'd never ask. 0:33:24.550 --> 0:33:31.070 Yeah. Powerful introduction. You know them asking us? Absolutely. 0:33:31.390 --> 0:33:32.310 Yeah. Right. 0:33:33.110 --> 0:33:35.510 Joe, take us back to the person of Christ. I mean, 0:33:35.510 --> 0:33:37.950 you talked about this earlier. What was the plan of 0:33:37.950 --> 0:33:41.950 Jesus in advancing his kingdom in a hostile environment? And 0:33:41.950 --> 0:33:46.270 how does that plan transform our attitudes and our actions? 0:33:46.550 --> 0:33:49.470 Yeah. Well, thank you for asking that, because we have 0:33:49.470 --> 0:33:52.790 now come to the moment where we can show the 0:33:52.790 --> 0:33:55.830 plan of Jesus. And my book is all about unveiling 0:33:55.830 --> 0:34:00.970 this wonderful plan in Matthew chapter five. He says, blessed 0:34:01.250 --> 0:34:04.930 are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. Blessed are 0:34:04.930 --> 0:34:08.130 you when others revile you and persecute you and utter 0:34:08.130 --> 0:34:11.330 all kinds of evil. So he is speaking this plan 0:34:11.330 --> 0:34:15.930 into a hostile environment, right? We live in a hostile environment. 0:34:16.050 --> 0:34:18.370 And then he says, and here's the plan. You are 0:34:18.370 --> 0:34:20.810 the light of the world. A city set on a 0:34:20.810 --> 0:34:23.370 hill cannot be hidden, nor do people light a lamp 0:34:23.370 --> 0:34:26.410 and put it under a basket. In the same way, 0:34:26.450 --> 0:34:30.290 let your light shine before others so that they may see. 0:34:30.330 --> 0:34:34.170 Now that's really not here. Your message, but see something 0:34:34.170 --> 0:34:38.050 about you. See your good works and glorify your father 0:34:38.050 --> 0:34:41.250 who is in heaven. And that word good. There is 0:34:41.250 --> 0:34:44.890 the Greek word for not like I behave as a Christian. 0:34:44.890 --> 0:34:47.049 I mean, that's going nowhere with the gospel. You can 0:34:47.050 --> 0:34:49.569 say to somebody, hey, you could be a Christian. You 0:34:49.570 --> 0:34:52.650 want to tithe like I do. That's not do you 0:34:52.650 --> 0:34:54.610 want to go to church on Sunday like I do? 0:34:54.650 --> 0:34:56.660 You want to want to stop sleeping around? You know, 0:34:56.700 --> 0:34:59.820 like that's going nowhere, right? So this is not like 0:35:00.100 --> 0:35:04.380 behaving yourself good. It's like doing good works that care 0:35:04.380 --> 0:35:08.100 about people, works that meet the needs of people. In 0:35:08.100 --> 0:35:10.380 my book we show this was the power of the 0:35:10.380 --> 0:35:12.500 early church. We don't have time to talk about it now, 0:35:12.500 --> 0:35:16.620 but this is the power of our lives that people 0:35:16.620 --> 0:35:21.860 see something different in our lives. And interestingly enough, Peter 0:35:21.860 --> 0:35:24.100 picks it up first Peter two and he says, keep 0:35:24.100 --> 0:35:28.700 your lives honorable. Have good attitudes. When they call you evildoers, 0:35:28.700 --> 0:35:31.620 let them see your good works and glorify your father 0:35:31.620 --> 0:35:34.819 who is in heaven. So this is the plan. It's 0:35:34.820 --> 0:35:38.300 something about our lives that is living for the blessing 0:35:38.340 --> 0:35:40.620 of others, for the care of others, for the love 0:35:40.620 --> 0:35:44.379 of others. Which then leads me to the chapter I 0:35:44.380 --> 0:35:46.940 wrote on What's Love Got to Do with it. And 0:35:46.940 --> 0:35:50.819 love is the central theme. It's interesting, Jesus said, that 0:35:50.820 --> 0:35:53.830 we had to love in four ways. We had to 0:35:53.870 --> 0:35:57.710 love God. We had to love our neighbor. We had 0:35:57.710 --> 0:36:01.310 to love our enemy, and we had to love one another. 0:36:01.950 --> 0:36:04.950 And as we lived the love of God out toward 0:36:04.950 --> 0:36:08.670 other people in these four arenas, it gives us power. 0:36:09.150 --> 0:36:13.390 Of course, loving God is obeying him. John chapter 13. 0:36:13.390 --> 0:36:16.310 You'll be glad to know this Gary Chapman God has 0:36:16.310 --> 0:36:17.430 a love language. 0:36:18.270 --> 0:36:19.030 That's right. 0:36:19.910 --> 0:36:24.950 He does. And it's our obedience when we surrender and 0:36:24.950 --> 0:36:27.750 live according to his ways. So that's what it means 0:36:27.750 --> 0:36:32.069 to love God. Loving our neighbor is the second arena 0:36:32.270 --> 0:36:35.950 where we have power. You know, the the word neighbor 0:36:35.950 --> 0:36:38.150 in Scripture is not the guy who lives well. It 0:36:38.150 --> 0:36:41.230 includes the guy that lives next door, but it's anybody 0:36:41.230 --> 0:36:44.790 who crosses your path. And Jesus talks us. How can 0:36:44.790 --> 0:36:47.069 you reach out to how can you love them? I 0:36:47.070 --> 0:36:50.589 think one fun story that I always remember was I 0:36:50.630 --> 0:36:53.360 was out for my for my morning run and Marty said, hey, 0:36:53.400 --> 0:36:56.360 bring a couple Starbucks lattes back because the end of 0:36:56.360 --> 0:36:58.520 my run, there's a little Starbucks place, and it was 0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:02.000 6 a.m. and I was the second guy in, and 0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:05.839 the first guy is all over the barista, this young 0:37:05.840 --> 0:37:08.400 kid trying to open up the store. He had a 0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:10.799 New York Times in one hand, a $50 bill in 0:37:10.800 --> 0:37:12.239 the other hand. He said, what do you mean you 0:37:12.239 --> 0:37:15.120 don't have change? What kind of a place do you operating? 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.719 I want my news. I don't know. So I finally 0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:20.920 stepped in and said, hey, I'll buy his newspaper for him. 0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:23.600 And the guy looks at me like, really? I said, yeah, yeah. 0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:26.759 And he takes the newspaper and starts. He said, all 0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:30.760 I have is yours. Didn't include the $50 bill. But anyway. 0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:34.160 So then he just kept going. And this is what 0:37:34.160 --> 0:37:37.200 the barista said to me. He said, Mister, that was 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:39.880 a really nice thing you did. This world would be 0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:42.440 a better place if there were more people like you. 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:45.160 And then I thought, I need to say something about 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:47.920 Jesus right now. And I couldn't think of what to say. 0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:51.569 And have you ever had that had that moment? Like so? 0:37:51.570 --> 0:37:53.969 I walked out with my lattes and got halfway down 0:37:53.969 --> 0:37:56.810 the block. Oh, I should have said this. Well, actually, 0:37:56.810 --> 0:37:59.129 the world wouldn't be a better place if a lot 0:37:59.130 --> 0:38:01.489 of people were like me, but it'd be a better 0:38:01.489 --> 0:38:04.210 place if a lot of people were like Jesus because 0:38:04.210 --> 0:38:06.529 he taught me how to do this. I said, I'm 0:38:06.530 --> 0:38:08.530 going to go back and say that to the kid. 0:38:08.570 --> 0:38:10.649 I'm going to go back. So I walked and there 0:38:10.650 --> 0:38:13.290 was already a line, and I didn't think butting in 0:38:13.290 --> 0:38:15.489 the line make a religious speech was going to be 0:38:15.489 --> 0:38:19.410 all that good. So, oh, I blew my opportunity. But 0:38:19.410 --> 0:38:21.530 I remembered then I had my old beat up moody 0:38:21.530 --> 0:38:24.489 Bible Institute hat, and I thought to myself, could it 0:38:24.489 --> 0:38:27.730 be that he saw my head and he saw that 0:38:27.730 --> 0:38:31.730 Bible people do these kinds of things. It was small. 0:38:31.730 --> 0:38:34.250 I bought the guy a newspaper and it caught the 0:38:34.250 --> 0:38:37.370 kid's attention, you know, and it's those small things that 0:38:37.370 --> 0:38:40.330 we do to love our neighbor, and who knows what 0:38:40.330 --> 0:38:43.250 the end result will be, or even like if you 0:38:43.250 --> 0:38:45.130 want to go to the third arena, the loving of 0:38:45.130 --> 0:38:48.299 our enemy or Christ makes that very clear that we 0:38:48.300 --> 0:38:53.460 are to love our enemies. By the way, Gary, are 0:38:53.460 --> 0:38:57.219 you really thankful that God loves his enemies? Yes. 0:38:57.460 --> 0:39:00.180 Or we wouldn't be. We wouldn't be in the family. 0:39:00.380 --> 0:39:02.859 No, we wouldn't be in the family. You know, and 0:39:02.860 --> 0:39:05.220 he loved his enemies. And he asks us to love 0:39:05.219 --> 0:39:08.339 our enemies. And this is a hard one because we 0:39:08.380 --> 0:39:10.180 don't always know how to do that. But let's say 0:39:10.180 --> 0:39:16.180 you had a really nasty neighbor who was always just nasty, 0:39:16.700 --> 0:39:20.259 and then his wife comes down with serious cancer and 0:39:20.260 --> 0:39:23.180 you're taking meals over. Maybe that's when you you show 0:39:23.180 --> 0:39:26.739 the love of Christ to your enemy. And another really 0:39:26.739 --> 0:39:30.020 favorite story is about Dan Cathy, who is CEO of 0:39:30.020 --> 0:39:34.339 chick fil A. You know, the world loves chick fil A, right? Yeah. And, uh, 0:39:34.340 --> 0:39:36.980 several years ago, he made a statement that he didn't 0:39:36.980 --> 0:39:39.740 agree with same sex marriage. Well, that fired up the 0:39:39.780 --> 0:39:43.580 whole gay system, and they they started picketing all the 0:39:43.580 --> 0:39:46.800 chick fil A's. So now what's Cathy going to do? 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:49.840 Paula's lawyer called the police. You got to get these 0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:53.160 pickets out of here. They're ruining my business. No, he 0:39:53.160 --> 0:39:57.839 told all of his stores. Take them chicken sandwiches so 0:39:57.880 --> 0:40:01.279 they hear. They go out to these picketers, are getting 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:05.279 free chicken sandwiches. And then he called the head activist 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:07.879 of this group, and he said, could I come by 0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:10.319 and meet you? And I think the guy thought he 0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:13.160 was going to get what for. And maybe Patsy's going 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:16.400 to say, call my lawyer. And but Cathy walked in 0:40:16.400 --> 0:40:18.439 and sat down and said, you know, I just like 0:40:18.440 --> 0:40:21.880 to get to know you. Tell me your story. Let 0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:25.560 me tell you my story. And they became friends. In fact, 0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:28.479 sometimes this guy sitting next to Cathy at the chick 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:31.640 fil A Bowl up in the skybox. So I have 0:40:31.640 --> 0:40:35.240 to ask you this question. Is this gay activist closer 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:38.760 to knowing? I don't know, closer to knowing Jesus today 0:40:38.760 --> 0:40:41.759 because Dan loved his enemy than he would have been 0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:47.610 if Dan had sued him for ruining his business. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. 0:40:47.969 --> 0:40:49.689 And if you don't like the story, if it makes 0:40:49.690 --> 0:40:52.890 you just remember Jesus with the worst people in his world. 0:40:52.930 --> 0:40:56.770 You know, remember Luke chapter 15. And then the fourth 0:40:56.770 --> 0:41:01.049 way that we influence our world is loving one another. Church, 0:41:01.290 --> 0:41:03.850 I want to say this real slow. Church should be 0:41:03.850 --> 0:41:08.690 a safe place where all are loved and accepted. Where 0:41:08.690 --> 0:41:13.810 we park our preferences and prejudices at the door and 0:41:13.810 --> 0:41:17.169 look for someone else that we can bless regardless and 0:41:17.210 --> 0:41:20.290 walk in knowing Jesus is the center of all that 0:41:20.290 --> 0:41:23.810 we do. There aren't many safe places for people today. 0:41:24.130 --> 0:41:27.170 And I'm afraid that they think that churches are in 0:41:27.170 --> 0:41:30.609 a real safe place. We drag our prejudices in our 0:41:30.610 --> 0:41:33.770 preferences in. I'll tell you, it was an embarrassment during 0:41:33.770 --> 0:41:39.450 Covid when Christians and churches and pastors fought vaxxers against 0:41:39.450 --> 0:41:43.779 non vaxxers and attached spiritual meanings to whether you get 0:41:43.780 --> 0:41:46.339 a vaccination or you don't, or whether you close the 0:41:46.340 --> 0:41:48.739 church or whether you don't. It was such an embarrassment 0:41:48.739 --> 0:41:49.820 to the gospel. 0:41:50.380 --> 0:41:50.780 Mhm. 0:41:51.140 --> 0:41:54.100 We're to love one another. You don't have to like 0:41:54.100 --> 0:41:56.980 each other. I don't think Jesus likes everything about me, 0:41:56.980 --> 0:42:00.580 but he loves me and he cares about me. And 0:42:00.580 --> 0:42:04.020 so that's the power of love in influencing our culture 0:42:04.020 --> 0:42:10.020 and keeping the gospel alive. And so I think right 0:42:10.020 --> 0:42:13.020 at the core of the kingdom is this wonderful concept 0:42:13.020 --> 0:42:14.859 of love in all four arenas. 0:42:15.860 --> 0:42:18.859 I've often said it's the most important word in the 0:42:18.860 --> 0:42:21.180 English language. Love? 0:42:21.780 --> 0:42:24.339 Yeah. No doubt. Amen. Amen. 0:42:25.180 --> 0:42:27.460 Well, Joe, you've shared some examples of this, but give 0:42:27.460 --> 0:42:30.980 us other examples of the kinds of actions that you're 0:42:30.980 --> 0:42:31.900 talking about. 0:42:32.580 --> 0:42:34.819 Remember the little chorus, this little light of mine. I'm 0:42:34.820 --> 0:42:37.739 going to let it shine. You know we can't think 0:42:37.739 --> 0:42:41.710 like a Sunday school chorus, right? It is the core 0:42:41.830 --> 0:42:44.630 of the power of the gospel, is for us to 0:42:44.670 --> 0:42:49.069 let our light shine, and it melts the resistance of 0:42:49.070 --> 0:42:53.029 the culture and at times even, is good enough to 0:42:53.070 --> 0:42:57.070 draw someone into the kingdom. And so in my book, 0:42:57.110 --> 0:43:01.270 I thankfully have given several illustrations of how this has 0:43:01.270 --> 0:43:05.190 happened and sometimes very dramatic ways. But, you know, maybe 0:43:05.750 --> 0:43:10.549 lighting up your. Your neighborhood, your town with good works 0:43:11.030 --> 0:43:13.870 means a lot. I have a friend who pastors a 0:43:13.870 --> 0:43:16.950 church in Vermont. All right. So he got stuck way 0:43:16.950 --> 0:43:20.190 up in nowhere. It is right in the shadow of 0:43:20.190 --> 0:43:26.670 Dartmouth University, Ivy League school. So obviously, it's progressive world 0:43:26.710 --> 0:43:31.390 on steroids. And the whole Dartmouth, for the most part. 0:43:31.430 --> 0:43:36.109 Community probably wouldn't care a bit about this church, you know, 0:43:36.150 --> 0:43:40.400 and probably thinks this church is, You know, some medieval 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:43.960 myth that they worship over there, or maybe even hostile 0:43:44.000 --> 0:43:46.759 toward the church for what we stand. But my buddy 0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:49.520 Chris Gepner, who pastors the church, said, you know what? 0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:52.960 We're going to bless our community. We're going to do 0:43:52.960 --> 0:43:55.520 our good works. We're going to reach out into our 0:43:55.520 --> 0:43:59.560 community and bless our community with the love of Christ 0:44:00.000 --> 0:44:03.520 right there in the shadow of Dartmouth University. In spite 0:44:03.520 --> 0:44:07.760 of all the cultural opposition, his church is booming and 0:44:07.760 --> 0:44:11.440 seeing many come to Christ. So he's won the hearts 0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:15.040 for Jesus by expressing the love of Jesus through good works. 0:44:15.440 --> 0:44:18.080 They feed public school teachers lunch. 0:44:18.800 --> 0:44:19.240 Hmm. 0:44:19.440 --> 0:44:23.239 They've paid off hundreds of school lunch debts of impoverished 0:44:23.239 --> 0:44:27.120 children who can't afford to pay for their lunches. They 0:44:27.120 --> 0:44:30.640 operate and staff a soup kitchen for the hungry. Their 0:44:30.640 --> 0:44:34.239 care ministry has paid the heating bills of many who, 0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:36.890 in brutal Vermont winters, could not afford to afford to 0:44:36.930 --> 0:44:40.290 pay their bills. You can count on it, Gary. People 0:44:40.290 --> 0:44:43.810 who live in the shadow of Dartmouth's progressive power would 0:44:43.810 --> 0:44:47.010 tell you that their world is a better place because 0:44:47.010 --> 0:44:50.090 of the love of Christ they have received from Chris's church. 0:44:50.489 --> 0:44:50.890 Hmm. 0:44:51.090 --> 0:44:53.089 And I can't help but think of how different it 0:44:53.090 --> 0:44:56.370 would have been if, like that pastor of the shower 0:44:56.410 --> 0:44:59.090 guy that we talked about at the beginning of the program, 0:44:59.570 --> 0:45:05.770 had positioned his church as an anti-progressive church and fired 0:45:05.770 --> 0:45:10.650 off at the progressives in the Dartmouth community how dim 0:45:10.690 --> 0:45:14.730 his light would have been, how unattractive the gospel would 0:45:14.770 --> 0:45:19.410 have been. But his church is booming because of their 0:45:19.410 --> 0:45:23.609 little light that they let shine in their community by 0:45:23.610 --> 0:45:27.450 their good works that brought glory to their father in heaven. 0:45:27.969 --> 0:45:31.530 And I think it's just one example of of what 0:45:31.530 --> 0:45:34.450 can be done with people who follow the Jesus plan. 0:45:34.489 --> 0:45:37.149 Remember we said at the very beginning, how can you 0:45:37.150 --> 0:45:40.109 become credible with the gospel and in the face of 0:45:40.110 --> 0:45:43.390 all this opposition? Well, just try a few good works 0:45:43.430 --> 0:45:46.750 to your neighbor, to somebody you work with, your church, 0:45:46.750 --> 0:45:49.510 to the area that you live in, and you just 0:45:49.510 --> 0:45:52.670 might see the light of Jesus Christ shining brightly. 0:45:53.510 --> 0:45:57.989 What would happen if every Christian church in the country 0:45:58.510 --> 0:46:00.270 had that attitude and that vision? 0:46:00.830 --> 0:46:01.549 Amen. 0:46:02.350 --> 0:46:04.790 Uh, if you had one other thing to say to 0:46:04.830 --> 0:46:09.989 our listeners about living like Jesus in a non Jesus world, 0:46:10.230 --> 0:46:12.310 which is, you know, what part of the title of 0:46:12.310 --> 0:46:14.629 your book, uh, what would you say to them as 0:46:14.630 --> 0:46:15.550 we leave today? 0:46:16.310 --> 0:46:19.510 I would just say, remember whose kingdom you belong to. 0:46:19.870 --> 0:46:23.910 Remember the joy and privilege of advancing his kingdom over 0:46:23.910 --> 0:46:28.830 and above your earthly kingdom. And remember how good the 0:46:28.830 --> 0:46:32.830 gospel is to set people free. And what a treasure 0:46:32.830 --> 0:46:35.280 that we that we carry the gospel, and to keep 0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:40.320 it totally unhindered and to keep Jesus unbranded by anything 0:46:40.320 --> 0:46:44.680 else except the power of his love. And to, you know, 0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:48.160 every we're just commoners. We don't. We're not church pastors. 0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:50.920 It's fine. Every day pray, Lord, how can I be 0:46:50.920 --> 0:46:53.439 a blessing? How can I do a good work? How 0:46:53.440 --> 0:46:57.960 can I reach out and let Jesus, uh, fulfill that prayer? 0:46:58.000 --> 0:47:01.080 I think we ought to do one good work a 0:47:01.080 --> 0:47:04.759 day just to stay in the habit. You know, that's 0:47:04.760 --> 0:47:06.759 what I'm going to do. I'm going to let my 0:47:06.760 --> 0:47:10.760 light shine somewhere today just to stay in shape. 0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:14.160 Anyone can do that with the help of God. 0:47:14.680 --> 0:47:15.319 Amen. 0:47:15.560 --> 0:47:18.160 Well, Joe, thanks again for being with us today. And 0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:20.319 thanks for the time you invested in this book. I 0:47:20.320 --> 0:47:23.480 think it's going to have a tremendous impact upon Christians. 0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:24.720 I pray it will. 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:26.920 I hope our listeners will get a copy and also 0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:28.920 share it with their friends. Mm. 0:47:29.600 --> 0:47:32.969 Well, what a challenging Conversation with Doctor Stolte today. If 0:47:32.969 --> 0:47:34.970 you want to find out more about our featured resource, 0:47:35.010 --> 0:47:39.250 go to Building Relationships. We have the book link right there. 0:47:39.250 --> 0:47:42.850 It's titled This Light of Mine Living Like Jesus in 0:47:42.850 --> 0:47:46.410 a non Jesus World. Again, go to Building Relationships. 0:47:48.010 --> 0:47:51.529 And next week we take your questions and comments from 0:47:51.530 --> 0:47:52.650 our listener line. 0:47:52.810 --> 0:47:56.410 Here, our February edition of Dear Gary next week. And 0:47:56.410 --> 0:47:59.410 if you'd like to ask a question, call one 860 0:47:59.410 --> 0:48:05.730 642 for Gary and leave your message today. 186642 for Gary. 0:48:06.290 --> 0:48:08.970 Our thanks to our production team Steve Wick and Janice. 0:48:08.969 --> 0:48:13.130 Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production 0:48:13.130 --> 0:48:17.650 of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry 0:48:17.650 --> 0:48:20.489 of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.