S1: Are you concerned about the direction of American culture? Are
S1: you angry about some of the battles we face in
S1: today's society? Does it feel like the bad guys have
S1: won and the good guys are losing?
S2: How can you become credible with the gospel in the
S2: face of all this opposition? Well, just try a few
S2: good works to your neighbor, to somebody you work with,
S2: your church, to the area that you live in, and
S2: you just might see the light of Jesus Christ shining brightly.
S1: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S1: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S1: former president of Moody Bible Institute and author Joe Stoll
S1: will talk about how to live fully in an age
S1: of anger and vitriol.
S3: Our featured resource is the book This Light of Mind
S3: Living Like Jesus in a non Jesus World. You can
S3: find out more at our website. Building relationships. And Gary,
S3: I know you have seen this phenomenon. As you travel
S3: around the country, there's a lot of anger, a lot
S3: of frustration with the ways that the culture is moving
S3: away from biblical morality. And we have to ask ourselves
S3: some really hard questions, don't we?
S4: Well, I think we do. Chris, you know, I've sometimes
S4: said it's like a civil war. We're having verbally, you know,
S4: shooting each other down if we disagree with each other
S4: and that sort of thing. So Doctor Joe Stoll has
S4: written this book on the whole topic, and so I'm
S4: excited about it. And I hope our listeners will stay
S4: tuned because this is going to be helpful to them.
S3: I think so too. And if you have somebody in
S3: your family that you disagreed with back in the during
S3: the holidays about the political thing, listen to what Doctor
S3: Joe Stoll says. He has a distinguished career in higher
S3: education and church leadership, served as president of Moody Bible
S3: Institute and then Cornerstone University, as well as pastoring several
S3: churches in the Midwest. He's written several books, including strength
S3: for the Journey and Simply Jesus. He and his wife
S3: Marty have three children, ten grandchildren. And our featured resource
S3: is that new book, This Light of Mine Living Like
S3: Jesus in a Non Jesus World. Find out more at
S3: Building Relationships.
S4: Well, Doctor Stoll, I've known you for a long while
S4: and really, really glad to have you with us today
S4: on building relationships.
S2: Yeah. Thank you Gary. So good to hear your voice.
S2: You know, I just I treasure the memories of our
S2: work together at Moody. And I certainly value the, you know,
S2: just the great impact your writing has had on the
S2: body of Christ. And my message is to. Because I
S2: use your love languages as some illustrations in my messages.
S2: So thanks for how you've been used to the Lord.
S2: Delighted to be on this program with you, my friend.
S4: Well thank you. So tell us more about the why
S4: of this book. I mean, this must have been something
S4: really troubling. And you were disturbed about and wanted to
S4: get a get a message out here. So tell us
S4: what motivated you.
S2: Yeah, well, actually troubled, I was troubled, and I am.
S2: I'm troubled about the gospel and our ability to do
S2: the gospel in such a hostile culture. Uh, the psalmist,
S2: Gary asks a real interesting question in Psalm 11 three.
S2: He says, if the foundations be destroyed, what can the
S2: righteous do? So what can we do? Because the foundations
S2: of biblical morality have been obviously destroyed. Like, for instance,
S2: what if you live next door to a neighbor who
S2: has signs all over his yard pushing progressive agendas that
S2: you know are anti-biblical? How do you build a gospel
S2: bridge to somebody like that when he sees you as
S2: a conservative Christian? How how do we do this? Or,
S2: you know, if your fellow coworkers in the office know
S2: your views on abortion and human sexuality Duality and think
S2: that you're somehow related to Attila the Hun. How do
S2: you build a bridge to the gospel, to people like that?
S2: And so the real issue is, how can the gospel
S2: through us be credible in a world gone wrong? That's
S2: the probing question. My heart. I do like First Chronicles 1232, Gary,
S2: where it says the men of Iskar, that was one
S2: of the tribes of Israel, understood their times and knew
S2: what to do. And thankfully, Jesus tells us what to do.
S2: So it's not like we're left without a plan. But
S2: my fear is that in not knowing what to do,
S2: we have actually hindered the gospel. Gary, do you remember
S2: when your kids were real little and you were doing
S2: a project and they just wanted to help, and they
S2: ended up getting in the way and making a bigger problem?
S2: You know, why is it that when they're 18, they're
S2: not willing to help? I don't fully understand that, but
S2: my fear is that not knowing what to do. We've
S2: been like little kids and that we've kind of messed
S2: up the project and actually hindered the gospel. But like
S2: I said, thankfully Jesus answers the question of Psalm 11
S2: three and has given us a way to establish the
S2: gospel credibility in our world, a world that really doesn't
S2: want to hear what we have to say.
S4: Well, I'm guessing that every Christian who's listening to us
S4: today is ready to hear because they're struggling also with this,
S4: and they're observing themselves and others. Now, you state in
S4: your book that evangelicals have hindered the spread of the
S4: gospel by wrong attitudes and wrong actions. So what are
S4: the attitudes and actions that concern you most?
S2: I think the attitudes that concern me most is how
S2: we relate to and how we respond to the fact
S2: that we've lost our culture to a paganism that has
S2: trashed all of the values that we hold dear. I mean,
S2: just make the list, right? A nation that has legalized
S2: same sex marriage. Think of the power of the LGBTQ movement.
S2: Think of gender issues. Think of pronoun issues. Think of
S2: bathroom issues. Think of a nation where 70% of our
S2: fellow Americans believe that abortion is a good thing. Some
S2: of them all the way up to the unborn at
S2: nine months. And think of the basic marginalization of those
S2: of us who hold biblical values. So how have we
S2: responded to that? Well, my observation in the last couple
S2: of decades is we basically responded with a sense of despair.
S2: I remember I was speaking to a relatively small group
S2: of people, and actually, when I preach, people usually fall asleep.
S2: And this occasion, there was a guy sitting on the
S2: front row, and I had the boldness to make the statement,
S2: I don't think we're going to get America back and
S2: his body language just moved up. He almost stood up
S2: out of his chair and he shouted out, oh no!
S2: What will we do? And the despair in his voice
S2: was just palatable. I think that, uh, a lot of
S2: us are angry about this stuff. And in a real
S2: fighting mood, a lot of us are hopeless. And basically,
S2: the feeling that we're the losers, actually. When actually, if
S2: you've read the last chapter, we're the winners, right? And
S2: should be the last ones to express a sense of
S2: despair and anger and hopelessness. And interestingly enough, this kind
S2: of response, um, goes out to a lost world. And
S2: guess what? There's a lot of anger in the lost world.
S2: Lost people are in despair today. Lost people feel hopeless
S2: about so many of the things in our culture. So
S2: if we're like them, why would they want to have
S2: what we have? If it's. It's just the same thing. Yeah.
S2: This really came home to me, uh, when I retired
S2: from my day job. I didn't retire from the kingdom,
S2: but Marty and I go, what are we going to do?
S2: And we decided, hey, let's go camping and let's go
S2: out to the let's go out to the national parks
S2: out west. And, Gary, we'd never camped a day in
S2: our lives. I mean, this was like a high risk adventure.
S2: But anyway, so we got a camper, and we've loved camping.
S2: And most people who camp know that in campgrounds, they
S2: have shower places where you can go and wash the
S2: wilderness off. And I remember one morning walking down toward
S2: the shower place where the showers were, and there was
S2: a guy in front of me with a towel and oh, no,
S2: he's going to beat me to the shower. And we
S2: both walked in and he stopped to shave. In my advantage.
S2: I went around to him back to where the showers were,
S2: and there were two shower stalls, and there was another
S2: man getting ready to get into his shower stall, Aristotle
S2: and I greeted him, and then he just launched. He said,
S2: do you know what I used to bring my little
S2: girl in here for a shower? I'd never do that. Today,
S2: in the day of trans and all this trans stuff.
S2: And then we both kind of stepped into our showers,
S2: and the wall between us went up about seven feet.
S2: So it was open above. And I could hear him
S2: and he just kept going. Just that same sex marriage problems.
S2: How come the LGBTQ movement has so much power? We
S2: never get a month. How come they never get a month?
S2: Talked about the pronouns. And then he dragged a couple
S2: of his politicians in and he couldn't stand. And it
S2: was like, oh my goodness, I mean. And then he
S2: said this. He said, I go to a great church.
S2: He said, and my pastor's all over this kind of stuff.
S2: He has zero tolerance for this. And I thought, hey,
S2: he's a brother. And I'm going to kind of lighten
S2: up the atmosphere here. And I said, hey, yeah, but
S2: I've read the last chapter, I know who wins. And
S2: he said, yeah, so do I, but we got to
S2: fight about this stuff. And I thought, and, you know, actually,
S2: I'm concerned about the same things. So are you. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
S2: But it was his tone. It was his. But then
S2: here's what happened. I stepped out of my shower, and
S2: this guy who had beat me to the shower room,
S2: who shaved, had walked down. He has his towel folded
S2: over his arm, waiting to get in, in queue. He
S2: heard the rant. Mhm. And Gary I was ashamed for
S2: the gospel. Mhm. You know I could what would I
S2: have said to this guy like hey you want to
S2: be a Christian. You could be just like us you know.
S2: You know that was going to be the big nonstarter right.
S2: And so it's these attitudes of how we've responded, I
S2: think have damaged the credibility of the gospel in our world.
S2: And the actions, as you said, what about the attitudes
S2: and actions? Is that we've politicized our faith by marrying
S2: Jesus into the political systems of our day. So we
S2: as evangelicals basically are not seen as a movement for
S2: the kingdom of Christ, but as an opposing political force. Yeah.
S2: And if we are the political enemy of all the
S2: progressives and by the way, I think Jesus wants progressives
S2: to be saved right to God. The gospel needs to
S2: go to them, too, you know. But, you know, if
S2: we're seen as this opposing political force, as the enemy,
S2: nobody on the other side will want what we have.
S2: Since we're the enemy. And so Jesus wants us to
S2: put the welcome mat out of the gospel for everyone.
S2: Even progressives. And I think we've done a lot of
S2: damage there. So those in my mind are the attitudes
S2: and the actions that have hindered the gospel in our day.
S4: You know, Joe, I was reflecting back on my own
S4: life as you were talking as to where we are today.
S4: And I remember when I was in high school, The
S4: Bible was taught in my school. Old Testament survey. New
S4: Testament survey. In in the public school. And every morning
S4: the principal prayed over the P.A. system. And I was thinking.
S2: Wow.
S4: We have come a long ways.
S2: Yeah, we really have come a long way.
S4: Well, and I think what you were talking about earlier
S4: is so true that that many non-Christians now simply view
S4: Christians as a political force, you know, rather than and
S4: don't even associate us with, with the gospel. It's just
S4: those are those people that are, you know, against this
S4: and this and this. So this is an important topic.
S4: I'm really glad that you wrote this book. So, Joe,
S4: we were discussing the whole issue of, you know, the
S4: population today seeing Christians as just a political force. Can
S4: you give us some examples of that?
S2: Yeah, right. Well, when our national evangelical leaders endorse candidates.
S2: When we open political rallies with the prayer by a
S2: local pastor who prays for the success of a candidate
S2: and the defeat of the other candidate. When we platform
S2: preferred political candidates at our major national gatherings, when we
S2: sing worship songs, at political rallies, when we wear T-shirts
S2: and caps that combined Jesus with our political preference, then
S2: they get the impression, you know that Jesus is a
S2: part of this thing. I remember Marty and I were
S2: driving down the road, the country road in Louisiana. We
S2: drove by this beautiful ranch, and it had this big
S2: white fence out in front and over the driveway was
S2: this banner, Jesus, our only Hope. That was so good.
S2: But down the rest of the fence were flags touting
S2: their preferred candidate. And I thought the average driver driving
S2: here thinks that. Jesus. And that goes together. And I
S2: also thought, Gary, What a powerful thing it would have
S2: been if it was just the banner over the driveway.
S2: Not married to the rest of the political stuff. There
S2: have been so powerful. January 6th. I thought you we
S2: all saw signs of people, you know, running against the
S2: Capitol building with crosses and having Jesus on their sweatshirts,
S2: and I was so burdened by that. So it's no wonder,
S2: by the way, a recent survey says that evangelicals are
S2: now seen by American adults through a political lens. And
S2: here's the bad news. We have branded Jesus with a
S2: political identity.
S4: Hmm.
S2: That's the really bad news. And he doesn't carry anybody
S2: else's brand. You know, he is never Jesus. Plus, and
S2: I've often wondered if when witnessing to someone, they might say, well,
S2: but do I have to become a right wing patriot
S2: to close the deal? So I think there's a lot
S2: of evidence to the fact that the gospel has been
S2: hindered by our political infusion. Of Christ and politics.
S4: Now, I think some of our listeners may well be
S4: asking when they hear you. Say that. But aren't we
S4: supposed to be an influence, you know, and seek to
S4: influence the morality of our culture?
S2: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Thank you for saying that. But we
S2: need to do it in the name of Jesus, not
S2: in the name of a political candidate.
S4: Hmm.
S2: But we need to do it in the name of
S2: the kingdom of Christ. You know, we are here bringing
S2: morality to you in the name of Jesus. And not
S2: in a political party, but of the kingdom of Christ. So,
S2: you know, it's all a matter of, uh, keeping Jesus
S2: central focused and not compromised, really, with all the political
S2: systems of our day.
S4: Yeah, well, let's talk about the whole political world. You know,
S4: what are some legitimate ways for evangelicals to influence our
S4: culture through the political scene?
S2: No. Yeah. A great question, Gary, because, you know, interestingly enough,
S2: the early church thrived. They flourished in a very hostile culture,
S2: far more hostile than ours. And the gospel went forth
S2: with strength. And in my book, I do a lot
S2: of contrast to what was their secret. How did they
S2: do this? But one thing they didn't have, they couldn't
S2: vote the emperor out. I mean, they had zero political clout.
S2: So we do have some advantages that I think are
S2: very legitimate. And as good citizens, you know, we should
S2: be responsible for that. Obviously, one is we can vote, right?
S2: And we can cast our vote for candidates who support
S2: our values and who advance morality in our world. If
S2: there are any there running for that, we can volunteer.
S2: We can run for school boards. We can run for
S2: political office. I have a friend who got so fed
S2: up with all this stuff that he ran for Congress
S2: and he won. He is now in his fifth term
S2: in the US House, making a great difference for Christ
S2: in that not just politically, but spiritually as well. We
S2: can support candidates. We can pray for revival. We can
S2: support candidates financially. These are all legitimate privileges of living
S2: as a good citizen. Uh, but the difference is, is
S2: that in the macro sense, we are not making a
S2: state for evangelicalism. It's a personal, private thing. And I
S2: think these are the kind of things that Christians ought
S2: to get involved with.
S4: Yeah, I'm encouraged when I see that happening. You know,
S4: in our in our local scene here where I live,
S4: you know, to see people running for the school board
S4: and that sort of thing, because, you know, we bring
S4: our values just like the non-Christian brings their values to
S4: a political setting. We bring our values to a political setting. So,
S4: you know, we have a voice.
S2: But the voice can't be shrill. Yeah, I think that's important.
S2: I think the voice has to be full of grace,
S2: strength and courage. But at the same time, first, and
S2: we may want to talk about this a little later.
S2: And it can't be a voice that goes against the people.
S2: It's got to go against the policies, right? Because people
S2: are precious to Christ.
S4: Yes, absolutely. Now, in your book, you contrast the difference
S4: between two kingdoms, our earthly kingdom and the kingdom of Christ.
S4: Why is this important?
S2: Well, it's so important. When Christ came, he came into
S2: a political environment where the Jews and the Jewish leaders
S2: thought that when the Messiah arrives, he's going to arise
S2: as a political conqueror, overthrow the oppressive regime of Rome,
S2: and sit on the throne of David. In other words,
S2: to actually Gary restore Israel to its former glory. That
S2: was their hope. And Jesus came and he claimed to
S2: be their man, but he was a surprise. You know,
S2: it's interesting, um, after his baptism and temptation in the
S2: wilderness and to kick off his ministry, he didn't run
S2: up to Jerusalem and get connected with all the political
S2: powers of Judaism to plot the overthrow of Rome. He
S2: headed down country, and he recruited 12 commoners to go
S2: with him into the lives of people. And if you
S2: read Matthew and you read Luke so many times, this
S2: is the commentary. And he healed the sick and proclaimed
S2: the kingdom of God. He healed the sick and proclaimed
S2: the kingdom of God. Now all of a sudden, we
S2: have introduced a whole new kingdom, not the earthly kingdom,
S2: not the overthrow of Rome, but the Kingdom of God.
S2: And it's clear that he came not to overthrow an
S2: earthly kingdom, but to launch a new kingdom, the Kingdom
S2: of Christ. And the And the masses loved it. I mean,
S2: they followed him and and he told parables about his kingdom,
S2: and he recruited people to follow him into the kingdom.
S2: He told us how to live in his kingdom in
S2: the sermon on the Mount. And he was all about
S2: launching a new kingdom. And he called his disciples to
S2: help him advance the kingdom. And he calls us to
S2: live to advance his kingdom as well. And I think
S2: part of the thing that concerns me is that I
S2: think a lot of us well intended, for sure. I
S2: want to be gentle here. We just didn't know what
S2: to do. Well intended. Have more passion to overthrow an
S2: earthly kingdom and to restore its glory than we do
S2: advance to advance the kingdom of Christ. And I think
S2: we need to be called to his kingdom. I love it,
S2: and in Colossians it says that God has transplanted us
S2: out of the domain of darkness. I love that phrase
S2: domain of darkness. It's kind of like Tolkien, isn't it?
S2: The domain of darkness. That's the earthly kingdom transfer into
S2: the kingdom of his dear sons. We are citizens of
S2: a different kingdom. We are called to advance his kingdom.
S2: And that kingdom, the advance of that kingdom is the
S2: gospel of His Son. To liberate lost souls and welcome
S2: their weary hearts to Jesus Christ. And so I think
S2: once we understand there's two kingdoms going on here, we
S2: have to prioritize his kingdom and not do anything to
S2: damage people's welcome into the kingdom of Christ.
S4: Mhm. And we are not the ones who are going
S4: to establish his kingdom on earth, right? That's his prerogative. When?
S2: Yeah.
S4: When he does that.
S2: Yeah. And I think exactly. That's such a really good point,
S2: because the day will come when he will establish finally
S2: his kingdom. You know, we're a part of that kingdom now,
S2: and the culture of the kingdom is how we live
S2: and welcome others to the culture of that kingdom. But
S2: just read it. You too, love revelation 21. You know
S2: when the day is coming, when he will conquer, finally
S2: put sin and Satan away forever and welcome us into
S2: his kingdom. And he will be our God, and we
S2: will be our people, and we will wipe away every.
S2: He will wipe away every tear, and there will be
S2: no more death and no more dying, and all things
S2: will be made new. Then we will know the fullness
S2: of his kingdom. But right now we're kind of in
S2: the entry stage of his kingdom. And like I said,
S2: we're called to advance that and to do nothing to
S2: damage the potential of the kingdom of Christ going into
S2: people's hearts.
S4: Yeah. You know, one of the things I hear you
S4: saying is that we're here to invite people into his kingdom.
S4: Now this is far more important. Opening the door for
S4: them to come into his kingdom than it is whatever
S4: happens politically in our country or any country. We're there
S4: to help people come into his kingdom, right?
S2: Amen. Exactly. And we should avoid anything that damages that potential.
S1: You're listening to the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
S1: If you go to Building Relationships, you'll find our featured
S1: resource by our guest, Doctor Joe Stoll. His book is
S1: titled This Light of Mine Living Like Jesus in a
S1: non Jesus World. Find that in more ways to strengthen
S1: your relationships there at building relationships.
S4: So Joe, you state that as Christians, we need to
S4: stand with confidence and courage for biblical morality in areas
S4: such as human sexuality and the sanctity of life. But
S4: you go on to say that it must be coupled
S4: with compassion. What does that look like?
S2: Mhm. And this I think this is one of the
S2: tougher assignments Gary, because we need to be courageous in
S2: standing for biblical truth and biblical morality. And we need
S2: to have confidence that we're standing on the right side
S2: and not be intimidated. But I think the problem is
S2: that we're not compassionate. Compassion reaches out to the needs
S2: of people. Right. So I think it's easy to appropriately
S2: oppose policies that contradict our values, and at the same time,
S2: see the people who are propagating the policies through a
S2: negative lens like these are evil people. They need to
S2: be shunned. They need to be defeated. And by the way,
S2: I think parenthetically, I think we need to understand something.
S2: No progressive who's advancing the Paganistic agenda today. Gary wakes
S2: up in the morning and says, I need to do
S2: something really evil today.
S4: Hmm.
S2: They think this is progress. They think they're a part
S2: of a whole new world order. And all of these
S2: things make life better. You know, there's no moral restrictions.
S2: They they're excited about the future of the world, globally speaking.
S2: With the emergence of this, this is their agenda. So
S2: they're not intentionally evil. What they're doing is propagating evil agendas,
S2: but they're not intentionally evil. But we tend to think
S2: that they are, and we tend to think that they
S2: should be shunned and they should be divided. We start
S2: taking it personally to see them as the enemy. Now,
S2: here's if we're going to live like Jesus in a
S2: non Jesus world. As my book cover says, we need
S2: to know that Jesus never saw people as the enemy.
S2: None of them. Actually, the only harsh words he had
S2: to say where the hypocrisy of the religious leaders and
S2: the chief priests who had compromised themselves politically with Rome.
S2: I mean, that was his most harsh language. He never
S2: saw people as the enemy. In fact, it's interesting. And
S2: this was a shock to the average good quote unquote,
S2: Jewish mind when they asked him, who is my neighbor? Right.
S2: Remember that? Yes. And Jesus tells the story of to
S2: prove who is the neighbor. Guess who he chooses as
S2: the hero of the story. A Samaritan. Mhm. The enemy
S2: of the people. And we don't, you know, we probably
S2: don't know about the geopolitics of Israel and Samaria in
S2: that day. But the Samaritans were the hated evil people.
S2: They were seen as the enemy of the temple, the
S2: enemy of Israel. And Jesus chooses an enemy to be
S2: the hero. The woman at the well. He risks his
S2: whole reputation in Jerusalem to stick around and talk to
S2: a woman. No rabbi would have ever done that. And
S2: she was a Samaritan. And he stays in the city
S2: and leads a revival in that enemy city. The centurion,
S2: the Roman centurion, who by faith asks for healing. And
S2: he says, you have more faith than anyone I know
S2: in Israel. So Jesus never saw people as the enemy?
S4: Yeah.
S2: And he surprised the religious leaders of his day by
S2: hanging out with sinners. I love Luke 15. This is
S2: one of my most favorite stories. He's hanging out with
S2: tax collectors and sinners. And Gary, you and I know
S2: that they were low guys on the totem pole of morality, right?
S2: They were the worst kind of people. Jews knew tax
S2: collectors and sinners. And the Pharisees, it says, are watching
S2: this and they're murmuring with each other. Ah, this man
S2: hangs out with tax collectors and sinners and even eats
S2: with them, Because it was anathema that he would and
S2: I when Jesus. I wonder if when Jesus overheard them
S2: grumbling like that, he said, oh, oh my. I don't
S2: know what I was doing. I'm so sorry. I'm out
S2: of here, you know? He stayed and he actually said,
S2: you know why I stay with people like this? And
S2: he tells the story of a lost sheep, a lost coin,
S2: and a lost son. A lamb to a farmer was
S2: a thing of value. The coin to this woman was
S2: of value. The son of value to his father. That
S2: the lost have value to God. And because he has
S2: suffered a significant loss when Adam fell in the garden,
S2: and the whole Metanarrative Scripture is the redemptive power of
S2: Christ to bring the lost back to himself. And Jesus
S2: is hanging out with the wrong kind of people on purpose,
S2: because he came to seek and save that which was lost.
S2: So we have to be very careful. We need to
S2: be against the policies, but not the people. But we
S2: need to be like Jesus to these people, praying for them,
S2: seeking ways. And by the way, Jesus, this whole basic
S2: plan for reaching the lost in this world shows a
S2: way to get that done, actually. But so important. Marty
S2: and I have a friend, a lady who had a ministry.
S2: Get this to strippers. All right. In the nightclubs, in
S2: the strip joints. So, you know what's a nice girl
S2: like you doing in a place like this? You know,
S2: and I'm sure a lot of people are. Well, why
S2: are you doing it? But she would go into the clubs,
S2: meet these girls, take them cookies, get acquainted, take them
S2: away on weekends, take them on a retreat. She had
S2: several of those girls to the Lord who were liberated
S2: from the pimps that had them in bondage, who now
S2: have life in Jesus Christ, have a real job and
S2: a good life. You know, and I'm saying thank God
S2: for her. You know, she's like Jesus, she's hanging out
S2: with the wrong kind of people. Yeah, because she came
S2: to seek and save that which was. That's just one example.
S2: But I think that, uh, we need to take a
S2: stand on issues of morality, but we have to keep
S2: it in the policy world and love people in a
S2: way that will offer to bring even. Maybe I have
S2: time for just one more. I told you about my
S2: friend who ran for Congress, and he. He works in
S2: a bipartisan prayer group. And every once in a while,
S2: one of the most liberal progressive Congress ladies comes that
S2: she's a headliner for her progressive agenda. They ask her
S2: what her needs are, they pray for her, and she says,
S2: you know, when she leaves, she always stops me with
S2: the tear in her eyes and says, thank you so
S2: much for praying for me. Yeah, my guess is she's
S2: a lot closer to Christ today than if all she
S2: had was the. The vindictiveness she hears on the floor
S2: of the House of Representatives. Because somebody cares about her.
S4: Yeah. Powerful. Powerful. You discussed earlier a bit of this,
S4: but that the early church living under the oppression of
S4: Rome were a was a hopeful church, that the early
S4: Christians had a real sense of hope. How do you
S4: define biblical hope? And how can we hold on to
S4: that that hope.
S2: Mhm. Mhm. Well hope is a kingdom value. So if
S2: we're going to be kingdom people we have to be
S2: hopeful people. Sadly a recent survey of Americans revealed that.
S2: Get a load of this. Only 10% of Americans see
S2: evangelicals as hopeful.
S4: Hmm.
S2: Now how can we possibly have credibility and and be
S2: attractive to a world when they see us like this.
S2: I get the fact that hope is hard. I mean,
S2: we've got a lot of reasons for losing hope on
S2: a regular basis. When our candidates lose an election, when
S2: the Supreme Court issues a decision that violates our values,
S2: we lose hope. When we feel marginalized, we lose hope.
S2: When we read headlines about the advance of progressive agenda,
S2: we lose hope. But early Christians, in spite of the
S2: hostility of their culture, they were seen as hopeful people.
S2: You know why? Because their hope was not in earthside things.
S2: Their hope was in Christ, was in the Lord, and
S2: his promise that he would never leave them or forsake them.
S2: His promise that he was coming again. His promise that
S2: the best is yet to come. These were people of
S2: the of the long view, and it gave them hope
S2: in the midst of a hostile world. Talking to a
S2: lady the other day, and she was so happy about
S2: the November election, and she said, now we can hope again.
S2: And I get exactly what she was saying. I get
S2: what she was saying, Gary. But the point is, she's
S2: got her hope in the wrong place.
S4: Yeah.
S2: You know, if if our hope is in politicians and
S2: political gain or whatever, what happens four years from now
S2: when we lose it now and we're hopeless again, right?
S2: Like we're yo yo. Hope people hope today. Don't hope
S2: tomorrow hope. But as the psalmist says, we do not
S2: put our hope in chariots and horses, but we put
S2: our hope in the Lord our God. Yeah. And those
S2: early Christians had unwavering hope in the Lord their God,
S2: because there were people of the long view and they
S2: believed that God was faithful. He would keep his promise
S2: and that biblical hope is not like our normal hope.
S2: We say, boy, I hope it doesn't rain on vacation.
S2: I hope the Cubs win another game nowadays. I hope
S2: you know those are the maybes. But Hebrews 11 one says,
S2: our hope is in a certainty of the faithfulness of
S2: God to keep his promises to us, that he will
S2: never leave us or forsake us, that he will be
S2: with us. He will come again, and he will take
S2: us home to heaven. And that makes us hopeful people.
S2: And in a hopeless world that could be attractive to somebody.
S2: I mean, it just might have the opportunity to share
S2: the gospel. Why? How are you so hopeful? I thought
S2: you'd never ask.
S4: Yeah. Powerful introduction. You know them asking us? Absolutely.
S2: Yeah. Right.
S4: Joe, take us back to the person of Christ. I mean,
S4: you talked about this earlier. What was the plan of
S4: Jesus in advancing his kingdom in a hostile environment? And
S4: how does that plan transform our attitudes and our actions?
S2: Yeah. Well, thank you for asking that, because we have
S2: now come to the moment where we can show the
S2: plan of Jesus. And my book is all about unveiling
S2: this wonderful plan in Matthew chapter five. He says, blessed
S2: are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. Blessed are
S2: you when others revile you and persecute you and utter
S2: all kinds of evil. So he is speaking this plan
S2: into a hostile environment, right? We live in a hostile environment.
S2: And then he says, and here's the plan. You are
S2: the light of the world. A city set on a
S2: hill cannot be hidden, nor do people light a lamp
S2: and put it under a basket. In the same way,
S2: let your light shine before others so that they may see.
S2: Now that's really not here. Your message, but see something
S2: about you. See your good works and glorify your father
S2: who is in heaven. And that word good. There is
S2: the Greek word for not like I behave as a Christian.
S2: I mean, that's going nowhere with the gospel. You can
S2: say to somebody, hey, you could be a Christian. You
S2: want to tithe like I do. That's not do you
S2: want to go to church on Sunday like I do?
S2: You want to want to stop sleeping around? You know,
S2: like that's going nowhere, right? So this is not like
S2: behaving yourself good. It's like doing good works that care
S2: about people, works that meet the needs of people. In
S2: my book we show this was the power of the
S2: early church. We don't have time to talk about it now,
S2: but this is the power of our lives that people
S2: see something different in our lives. And interestingly enough, Peter
S2: picks it up first Peter two and he says, keep
S2: your lives honorable. Have good attitudes. When they call you evildoers,
S2: let them see your good works and glorify your father
S2: who is in heaven. So this is the plan. It's
S2: something about our lives that is living for the blessing
S2: of others, for the care of others, for the love
S2: of others. Which then leads me to the chapter I
S2: wrote on What's Love Got to Do with it. And
S2: love is the central theme. It's interesting, Jesus said, that
S2: we had to love in four ways. We had to
S2: love God. We had to love our neighbor. We had
S2: to love our enemy, and we had to love one another.
S2: And as we lived the love of God out toward
S2: other people in these four arenas, it gives us power.
S2: Of course, loving God is obeying him. John chapter 13.
S2: You'll be glad to know this Gary Chapman God has
S2: a love language.
S4: That's right.
S2: He does. And it's our obedience when we surrender and
S2: live according to his ways. So that's what it means
S2: to love God. Loving our neighbor is the second arena
S2: where we have power. You know, the the word neighbor
S2: in Scripture is not the guy who lives well. It
S2: includes the guy that lives next door, but it's anybody
S2: who crosses your path. And Jesus talks us. How can
S2: you reach out to how can you love them? I
S2: think one fun story that I always remember was I
S2: was out for my for my morning run and Marty said, hey,
S2: bring a couple Starbucks lattes back because the end of
S2: my run, there's a little Starbucks place, and it was
S2: 6 a.m. and I was the second guy in, and
S2: the first guy is all over the barista, this young
S2: kid trying to open up the store. He had a
S2: New York Times in one hand, a $50 bill in
S2: the other hand. He said, what do you mean you
S2: don't have change? What kind of a place do you operating?
S2: I want my news. I don't know. So I finally
S2: stepped in and said, hey, I'll buy his newspaper for him.
S2: And the guy looks at me like, really? I said, yeah, yeah.
S2: And he takes the newspaper and starts. He said, all
S2: I have is yours. Didn't include the $50 bill. But anyway.
S2: So then he just kept going. And this is what
S2: the barista said to me. He said, Mister, that was
S2: a really nice thing you did. This world would be
S2: a better place if there were more people like you.
S2: And then I thought, I need to say something about
S2: Jesus right now. And I couldn't think of what to say.
S2: And have you ever had that had that moment? Like so?
S2: I walked out with my lattes and got halfway down
S2: the block. Oh, I should have said this. Well, actually,
S2: the world wouldn't be a better place if a lot
S2: of people were like me, but it'd be a better
S2: place if a lot of people were like Jesus because
S2: he taught me how to do this. I said, I'm
S2: going to go back and say that to the kid.
S2: I'm going to go back. So I walked and there
S2: was already a line, and I didn't think butting in
S2: the line make a religious speech was going to be
S2: all that good. So, oh, I blew my opportunity. But
S2: I remembered then I had my old beat up moody
S2: Bible Institute hat, and I thought to myself, could it
S2: be that he saw my head and he saw that
S2: Bible people do these kinds of things. It was small.
S2: I bought the guy a newspaper and it caught the
S2: kid's attention, you know, and it's those small things that
S2: we do to love our neighbor, and who knows what
S2: the end result will be, or even like if you
S2: want to go to the third arena, the loving of
S2: our enemy or Christ makes that very clear that we
S2: are to love our enemies. By the way, Gary, are
S2: you really thankful that God loves his enemies? Yes.
S4: Or we wouldn't be. We wouldn't be in the family.
S2: No, we wouldn't be in the family. You know, and
S2: he loved his enemies. And he asks us to love
S2: our enemies. And this is a hard one because we
S2: don't always know how to do that. But let's say
S2: you had a really nasty neighbor who was always just nasty,
S2: and then his wife comes down with serious cancer and
S2: you're taking meals over. Maybe that's when you you show
S2: the love of Christ to your enemy. And another really
S2: favorite story is about Dan Cathy, who is CEO of
S2: chick fil A. You know, the world loves chick fil A, right? Yeah. And, uh,
S2: several years ago, he made a statement that he didn't
S2: agree with same sex marriage. Well, that fired up the
S2: whole gay system, and they they started picketing all the
S2: chick fil A's. So now what's Cathy going to do?
S2: Paula's lawyer called the police. You got to get these
S2: pickets out of here. They're ruining my business. No, he
S2: told all of his stores. Take them chicken sandwiches so
S2: they hear. They go out to these picketers, are getting
S2: free chicken sandwiches. And then he called the head activist
S2: of this group, and he said, could I come by
S2: and meet you? And I think the guy thought he
S2: was going to get what for. And maybe Patsy's going
S2: to say, call my lawyer. And but Cathy walked in
S2: and sat down and said, you know, I just like
S2: to get to know you. Tell me your story. Let
S2: me tell you my story. And they became friends. In fact,
S2: sometimes this guy sitting next to Cathy at the chick
S2: fil A Bowl up in the skybox. So I have
S2: to ask you this question. Is this gay activist closer
S2: to knowing? I don't know, closer to knowing Jesus today
S2: because Dan loved his enemy than he would have been
S2: if Dan had sued him for ruining his business. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
S2: And if you don't like the story, if it makes
S2: you just remember Jesus with the worst people in his world.
S2: You know, remember Luke chapter 15. And then the fourth
S2: way that we influence our world is loving one another. Church,
S2: I want to say this real slow. Church should be
S2: a safe place where all are loved and accepted. Where
S2: we park our preferences and prejudices at the door and
S2: look for someone else that we can bless regardless and
S2: walk in knowing Jesus is the center of all that
S2: we do. There aren't many safe places for people today.
S2: And I'm afraid that they think that churches are in
S2: a real safe place. We drag our prejudices in our
S2: preferences in. I'll tell you, it was an embarrassment during
S2: Covid when Christians and churches and pastors fought vaxxers against
S2: non vaxxers and attached spiritual meanings to whether you get
S2: a vaccination or you don't, or whether you close the
S2: church or whether you don't. It was such an embarrassment
S2: to the gospel.
S4: Mhm.
S2: We're to love one another. You don't have to like
S2: each other. I don't think Jesus likes everything about me,
S2: but he loves me and he cares about me. And
S2: so that's the power of love in influencing our culture
S2: and keeping the gospel alive. And so I think right
S2: at the core of the kingdom is this wonderful concept
S2: of love in all four arenas.
S4: I've often said it's the most important word in the
S4: English language. Love?
S2: Yeah. No doubt. Amen. Amen.
S4: Well, Joe, you've shared some examples of this, but give
S4: us other examples of the kinds of actions that you're
S4: talking about.
S2: Remember the little chorus, this little light of mine. I'm
S2: going to let it shine. You know we can't think
S2: like a Sunday school chorus, right? It is the core
S2: of the power of the gospel, is for us to
S2: let our light shine, and it melts the resistance of
S2: the culture and at times even, is good enough to
S2: draw someone into the kingdom. And so in my book,
S2: I thankfully have given several illustrations of how this has
S2: happened and sometimes very dramatic ways. But, you know, maybe
S2: lighting up your. Your neighborhood, your town with good works
S2: means a lot. I have a friend who pastors a
S2: church in Vermont. All right. So he got stuck way
S2: up in nowhere. It is right in the shadow of
S2: Dartmouth University, Ivy League school. So obviously, it's progressive world
S2: on steroids. And the whole Dartmouth, for the most part.
S2: Community probably wouldn't care a bit about this church, you know,
S2: and probably thinks this church is, You know, some medieval
S2: myth that they worship over there, or maybe even hostile
S2: toward the church for what we stand. But my buddy
S2: Chris Gepner, who pastors the church, said, you know what?
S2: We're going to bless our community. We're going to do
S2: our good works. We're going to reach out into our
S2: community and bless our community with the love of Christ
S2: right there in the shadow of Dartmouth University. In spite
S2: of all the cultural opposition, his church is booming and
S2: seeing many come to Christ. So he's won the hearts
S2: for Jesus by expressing the love of Jesus through good works.
S2: They feed public school teachers lunch.
S4: Hmm.
S2: They've paid off hundreds of school lunch debts of impoverished
S2: children who can't afford to pay for their lunches. They
S2: operate and staff a soup kitchen for the hungry. Their
S2: care ministry has paid the heating bills of many who,
S2: in brutal Vermont winters, could not afford to afford to
S2: pay their bills. You can count on it, Gary. People
S2: who live in the shadow of Dartmouth's progressive power would
S2: tell you that their world is a better place because
S2: of the love of Christ they have received from Chris's church.
S4: Hmm.
S2: And I can't help but think of how different it
S2: would have been if, like that pastor of the shower
S2: guy that we talked about at the beginning of the program,
S2: had positioned his church as an anti-progressive church and fired
S2: off at the progressives in the Dartmouth community how dim
S2: his light would have been, how unattractive the gospel would
S2: have been. But his church is booming because of their
S2: little light that they let shine in their community by
S2: their good works that brought glory to their father in heaven.
S2: And I think it's just one example of of what
S2: can be done with people who follow the Jesus plan.
S2: Remember we said at the very beginning, how can you
S2: become credible with the gospel and in the face of
S2: all this opposition? Well, just try a few good works
S2: to your neighbor, to somebody you work with, your church,
S2: to the area that you live in, and you just
S2: might see the light of Jesus Christ shining brightly.
S4: What would happen if every Christian church in the country
S4: had that attitude and that vision?
S2: Amen.
S4: Uh, if you had one other thing to say to
S4: our listeners about living like Jesus in a non Jesus world,
S4: which is, you know, what part of the title of
S4: your book, uh, what would you say to them as
S4: we leave today?
S2: I would just say, remember whose kingdom you belong to.
S2: Remember the joy and privilege of advancing his kingdom over
S2: and above your earthly kingdom. And remember how good the
S2: gospel is to set people free. And what a treasure
S2: that we that we carry the gospel, and to keep
S2: it totally unhindered and to keep Jesus unbranded by anything
S2: else except the power of his love. And to, you know,
S2: every we're just commoners. We don't. We're not church pastors.
S2: It's fine. Every day pray, Lord, how can I be
S2: a blessing? How can I do a good work? How
S2: can I reach out and let Jesus, uh, fulfill that prayer?
S2: I think we ought to do one good work a
S2: day just to stay in the habit. You know, that's
S2: what I'm going to do. I'm going to let my
S2: light shine somewhere today just to stay in shape.
S4: Anyone can do that with the help of God.
S2: Amen.
S4: Well, Joe, thanks again for being with us today. And
S4: thanks for the time you invested in this book. I
S4: think it's going to have a tremendous impact upon Christians.
S2: I pray it will.
S4: I hope our listeners will get a copy and also
S4: share it with their friends. Mm.
S3: Well, what a challenging Conversation with Doctor Stolte today. If
S3: you want to find out more about our featured resource,
S3: go to Building Relationships. We have the book link right there.
S3: It's titled This Light of Mine Living Like Jesus in
S3: a non Jesus World. Again, go to Building Relationships.
S4: And next week we take your questions and comments from
S4: our listener line.
S1: Here, our February edition of Dear Gary next week. And
S1: if you'd like to ask a question, call one 860
S1: 642 for Gary and leave your message today. 186642 for Gary.
S1: Our thanks to our production team Steve Wick and Janice.
S1: Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production
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S1: of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.