1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,680 S1: I've heard this statement before. Jews don't need Jesus. Have 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,560 S1: you ever heard that? Don't talk to Jewish people about Jesus. 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,120 S1: In fact, I've spoken with messianic believers who say people 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,919 S1: like me who don't have a Jewish background, just don't 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,160 S1: bring up the subject of faith. Leave conversations about Jesus 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,200 S1: with Jewish people to Jewish people. My guest today on 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,120 S1: Chris Fabry Live says, If Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,639 S1: if he is not the Savior of the world and 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,080 S1: not the promised Redeemer that God sent to restore Israel 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,559 S1: and redeem the nations, then bringing his message to the 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,160 S1: Jewish people. We shouldn't do that. It's a threat to them, 12 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:49,760 S1: to their security. But. But if he is the prophet 13 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:55,600 S1: God promised, if God did indeed command Israel to follow Yeshua, 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,480 S1: and if the Jews will be held accountable by God, 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,610 S1: if they don't accept Jesus, then sharing that message is 16 00:01:02,610 --> 00:01:07,929 S1: beyond important. It's an imperative. That's our topic today on 17 00:01:07,930 --> 00:01:10,289 S1: Chris Fabry Live. Thank you for joining us here at 18 00:01:10,290 --> 00:01:13,890 S1: the Radio Backyard Fence. I am away from the microphone today. 19 00:01:14,490 --> 00:01:16,970 S1: Do not call us. We are not Chris Fabry live. 20 00:01:16,970 --> 00:01:19,730 S1: But we're going to go back to a program we 21 00:01:19,730 --> 00:01:24,450 S1: aired in June of 2017. We had a guest, Avi Snyder, 22 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:27,850 S1: on the program and we had, uh, we had some 23 00:01:27,850 --> 00:01:32,050 S1: fireworks because of the topic that you are going to 24 00:01:32,090 --> 00:01:36,890 S1: hear now, because it was 2017 and because of some 25 00:01:36,890 --> 00:01:39,410 S1: of the events that happened on that day, you will 26 00:01:39,410 --> 00:01:43,209 S1: hear dated information, you will hear a phone number. Disregard that. 27 00:01:43,209 --> 00:01:46,610 S1: Don't call us today. Our program is prerecorded. I do 28 00:01:46,610 --> 00:01:48,250 S1: have a phone number I do want you to call, 29 00:01:48,250 --> 00:01:50,730 S1: but let me tell you about the day that this happened. 30 00:01:50,730 --> 00:01:53,890 S1: This was the day of the shooting of the baseball 31 00:01:53,890 --> 00:01:58,330 S1: field in near Washington, D.C. do you remember that Steve 32 00:01:58,460 --> 00:02:02,540 S1: Scalise and the others? I don't have any idea. As 33 00:02:02,540 --> 00:02:06,980 S1: you look at the your website today, your favorite news website, 34 00:02:06,980 --> 00:02:08,420 S1: I have no idea what's going to be at the 35 00:02:08,419 --> 00:02:10,139 S1: top there. I don't know what the headlines are going 36 00:02:10,180 --> 00:02:13,419 S1: to be today, but you know what? I know that 37 00:02:13,419 --> 00:02:16,820 S1: there probably is going to be something that will tear 38 00:02:16,820 --> 00:02:21,940 S1: us apart, try to rip us apart. Bad news. News 39 00:02:21,980 --> 00:02:26,500 S1: is generally, you know, different than what is going on normally. 40 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:30,859 S1: And normally that's a bad thing. Can be can be good. 41 00:02:31,740 --> 00:02:35,780 S1: We take seriously that peacemakers are blessed. I want to 42 00:02:35,780 --> 00:02:40,020 S1: be part of that. The political, the social, the cultural, 43 00:02:40,060 --> 00:02:43,899 S1: the spiritual peacemaking that we need to go on in 44 00:02:43,940 --> 00:02:47,860 S1: this country. We need an awful lot of it. But 45 00:02:47,860 --> 00:02:52,020 S1: even today's topic is a divisive one. It is a 46 00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:57,110 S1: difficult subject because we're talking about the person of Jesus, 47 00:02:57,870 --> 00:03:03,230 S1: and he said that people would be divided over him. 48 00:03:03,230 --> 00:03:05,669 S1: So in the tone of the program today, I hope 49 00:03:05,669 --> 00:03:10,750 S1: that you hear a tone of reconciliation and redemption and 50 00:03:10,750 --> 00:03:13,550 S1: hope coming through as we talk with Avi. We'll get 51 00:03:13,550 --> 00:03:15,510 S1: to that here in just a moment. Here's the phone 52 00:03:15,510 --> 00:03:21,350 S1: number I'd love you to call today. 86695. Fabri. Now, 53 00:03:21,350 --> 00:03:23,670 S1: why do I want you to call that number? Because 54 00:03:23,990 --> 00:03:26,989 S1: I have a fantastic thank you this month for anybody 55 00:03:26,990 --> 00:03:29,829 S1: who supports us at the back fence. We have been 56 00:03:29,830 --> 00:03:33,870 S1: following the story of Colleen Chow for the last several years. 57 00:03:34,110 --> 00:03:39,150 S1: She's had a terminal diagnosis and she's lived through it. 58 00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:42,470 S1: God has extended her life as given her more days, 59 00:03:42,910 --> 00:03:46,590 S1: and she's come up with thoughts about heaven in the 60 00:03:46,590 --> 00:03:49,470 S1: face of death. The title of the book, I Just 61 00:03:49,470 --> 00:03:54,150 S1: Love This on our way home. I love that motif 62 00:03:54,150 --> 00:03:57,960 S1: that God has prepared this place for us. And this 63 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:03,720 S1: longing inside. And he will cause that to pass. Bring 64 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,680 S1: that to pass. But he's also going to give us 65 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,920 S1: the hope right now of our eternal home. So let 66 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,880 S1: me send you a copy of On Our Way Home 67 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:19,200 S1: by Colleen Chow. Give a gift of any size@kris.org. Scroll down. 68 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,320 S1: You'll see how to give right there. Kris dot or 69 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:30,680 S1: use the phone number (866) 953-2279. And thank you for your 70 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,160 S1: support of the radio backyard fence. Avi Snider was raised 71 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,719 S1: in a conservative Jewish home in New York City because 72 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,719 S1: of Jews for Jesus. He became a follower of Yeshua 73 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,640 S1: and he has been a witness to his friends. He 74 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,320 S1: graduated from Fuller Theological Seminary School of World Mission. He's 75 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,460 S1: a master's degree in missiology. He served with Jews for 76 00:04:56,460 --> 00:05:00,220 S1: Jesus and has since 1978. He's the European director. He 77 00:05:00,220 --> 00:05:03,580 S1: and his wife have three grown children. Avi, welcome to 78 00:05:03,580 --> 00:05:04,900 S1: the program. How are you doing today? 79 00:05:04,900 --> 00:05:06,659 S2: Thank you very much, Chris. I'm glad to be here. 80 00:05:06,660 --> 00:05:09,700 S2: I'm doing well, although it's it's a sad bit of news, 81 00:05:10,020 --> 00:05:12,740 S2: but I'm doing well in the Lord. Thank you. 82 00:05:13,460 --> 00:05:15,979 S1: And we're going to be talking about our featured resource 83 00:05:15,980 --> 00:05:20,940 S1: today is Jews Don't need Jesus and other misconceptions. You 84 00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:25,180 S1: can find it as our featured resource at Chris Fabry live. Um, 85 00:05:25,180 --> 00:05:26,860 S1: I don't want to put you on the spot because 86 00:05:26,860 --> 00:05:29,580 S1: you've been you haven't had your ear to the news, 87 00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:33,460 S1: but we live in such an uncertain world today where 88 00:05:33,460 --> 00:05:37,420 S1: a lot of upheaval and killing, stealing, destroying, uh, just 89 00:05:37,460 --> 00:05:40,659 S1: a quick response about what's happened in the news. 90 00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:44,500 S2: Well, obviously it's tragic. Every, every incident like this, whether 91 00:05:44,500 --> 00:05:50,460 S2: it's numerically large or numerically small, uh, is is tragic. 92 00:05:50,980 --> 00:05:53,750 S2: But every time I hear of things like this, I'm 93 00:05:53,750 --> 00:05:59,349 S2: reminded that what the Bible says about human nature is true. 94 00:05:59,350 --> 00:06:03,390 S2: And what, uh, what conventional wisdom says about human nature 95 00:06:03,390 --> 00:06:05,950 S2: is false. It really just highlights that, you know, the 96 00:06:05,950 --> 00:06:09,070 S2: world wants to tell us that we're basically fine and 97 00:06:09,070 --> 00:06:11,790 S2: we can find our own solutions. And if we can 98 00:06:11,790 --> 00:06:13,990 S2: just get the externals right, then everything's going to be 99 00:06:13,990 --> 00:06:16,909 S2: wonderful and we'll all live in peace and harmony and brotherhood. 100 00:06:16,910 --> 00:06:19,109 S2: And the Bible says, no, the problem isn't the externals. 101 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:22,230 S2: The problem is us that there's something wrong inside each 102 00:06:22,230 --> 00:06:25,070 S2: one of our hearts. Our hearts are corrupted by a 103 00:06:25,070 --> 00:06:27,910 S2: disease called sin. And you know we're foolish if we 104 00:06:27,910 --> 00:06:31,630 S2: think that any one of us is, is beyond the 105 00:06:31,630 --> 00:06:36,029 S2: the ultimate manifestation of the corruption of that sin. Any 106 00:06:36,029 --> 00:06:38,390 S2: one of us, if you if you give us the 107 00:06:38,390 --> 00:06:41,589 S2: the right. And I say that in quotes, the right indoctrination, 108 00:06:41,790 --> 00:06:44,950 S2: and you put us in the right set of circumstances, uh, 109 00:06:44,950 --> 00:06:48,150 S2: any one of us, uh, could be guilty of committing 110 00:06:48,150 --> 00:06:52,240 S2: the most horrific acts. And the only solution to that is, 111 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,400 S2: is a change of heart and a new spirit. And 112 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,760 S2: that's exactly what the gospel promises to do. God promises 113 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,800 S2: in many places. I think of Ezekiel chapter 36 where 114 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,880 S2: he says, I'll give you a new heart. I'll give 115 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,719 S2: you a heart of flesh. I'll give you a new spirit, 116 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,560 S2: my spirit living within you. And we'll be able to 117 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,080 S2: obey him and live the way he wants us to live. 118 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,160 S2: And that's really the only solution, the only hope for 119 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,680 S2: any kind of peace, whether it's here in the States, 120 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,520 S2: whether it's overseas, in Europe, where I live, whether it's 121 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,320 S2: in the Middle East, in Israel, the only hope for 122 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,920 S2: any kind of peace, internal and external, is Jesus. He 123 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,400 S2: is the Prince of Peace. And we really need to 124 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:34,960 S2: urge people to look to him. 125 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,160 S1: You went to the former USSR many years ago, when 126 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,720 S1: that country was kind of imploding in a lot of ways, 127 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,480 S1: and did you see this type of thing, what you 128 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,890 S1: just talked about? Did you see that in evidence there 129 00:07:51,890 --> 00:07:53,050 S1: when you first went? 130 00:07:53,250 --> 00:07:55,850 S2: I did. My wife and I had the privilege of 131 00:07:55,850 --> 00:08:00,010 S2: serving with Jews for Jesus since 1978 in the States 132 00:08:00,530 --> 00:08:04,050 S2: until 1990. Then we took our first probe trip into 133 00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:08,170 S2: the Soviet Union because we felt that, um, that in 134 00:08:08,170 --> 00:08:10,690 S2: light of all the, the chaos that was going on, 135 00:08:10,690 --> 00:08:13,370 S2: that it was actually a perfect time to bring the 136 00:08:13,410 --> 00:08:15,930 S2: gospel to our people, to our Jewish people, as well 137 00:08:15,930 --> 00:08:18,690 S2: as to anybody else who would listen to us. And 138 00:08:18,690 --> 00:08:22,929 S2: we proved right. And so after that first probe trip, 139 00:08:22,930 --> 00:08:25,610 S2: we moved there. We saw two things. We saw, on 140 00:08:25,610 --> 00:08:30,850 S2: the one hand, an incredible receptivity. Tragedy is tragedy. But 141 00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:33,490 S2: very often these are the very circumstances that the Lord 142 00:08:33,490 --> 00:08:37,530 S2: will use to make a person realize that if there's 143 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:40,170 S2: any hope, we have to look outside of ourselves. The 144 00:08:40,170 --> 00:08:43,850 S2: collapse of the Soviet Union made all people, including my people, very, 145 00:08:43,850 --> 00:08:48,770 S2: very open to hearing what the scriptures offer that that 146 00:08:48,770 --> 00:08:51,219 S2: we can have hope, that we can have peace, that 147 00:08:51,220 --> 00:08:53,940 S2: we can have a purposeful life. When we repent of 148 00:08:53,940 --> 00:08:56,500 S2: our sins and place our faith in Yeshua, in Jesus, 149 00:08:56,500 --> 00:08:58,020 S2: the one who died for our sins and rose from 150 00:08:58,020 --> 00:09:01,460 S2: the dead. I also saw on the flip side of 151 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:03,980 S2: that hope, the rise of a lot of very, very 152 00:09:03,980 --> 00:09:07,940 S2: frightening things. You know, when it's a catastrophic situation, people 153 00:09:07,940 --> 00:09:12,260 S2: look for all kinds of solutions. Uh, we saw the 154 00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:16,380 S2: rise of, uh, of a lot of militant nationalistic movements 155 00:09:16,380 --> 00:09:19,340 S2: and all the, in all the republics that had been 156 00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:23,180 S2: under the Soviet thumb for 70 years and now they 157 00:09:23,179 --> 00:09:26,460 S2: were breaking up. Um, and it was a frightening time 158 00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:29,140 S2: for people who didn't know the Lord, but it was 159 00:09:29,140 --> 00:09:31,740 S2: also a very fruitful time for those of us who 160 00:09:31,740 --> 00:09:33,140 S2: do know the Lord, and for those of us who 161 00:09:33,179 --> 00:09:35,740 S2: are there to proclaim the good news. MM. 162 00:09:36,740 --> 00:09:38,819 S1: It's got to be an interesting hour, and I'd love 163 00:09:38,820 --> 00:09:42,540 S1: to get your response today. Um, to, to what Avi 164 00:09:42,540 --> 00:09:46,460 S1: is talking about and, and his central message that Jews 165 00:09:46,660 --> 00:09:49,590 S1: do need Jesus, but the title of the book is 166 00:09:50,230 --> 00:09:55,150 S1: Jews Don't Need Jesus and Other Misconceptions. It's our featured 167 00:09:55,150 --> 00:09:58,750 S1: resource at Chris Fabry live. Just go there now. The 168 00:09:58,750 --> 00:10:01,750 S1: foreword is by John Piper and you can find out 169 00:10:01,750 --> 00:10:05,550 S1: more about that. Just go to Chris Fabry live.org. Let 170 00:10:05,550 --> 00:10:07,350 S1: me take a break and we'll return with more from 171 00:10:07,390 --> 00:10:11,630 S1: Avi Snider. And our first caller is somebody who disagreed 172 00:10:11,630 --> 00:10:14,430 S1: vehemently with Avi about what he said. It's one of 173 00:10:14,429 --> 00:10:17,110 S1: the reasons why I wanted you to hear this conversation 174 00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:36,950 S1: with Avi Snider straight ahead on Moody Radio. It is 175 00:10:36,950 --> 00:10:39,069 S1: great to have the European director of Jews for Jesus 176 00:10:39,070 --> 00:10:41,709 S1: with us today. He's the author of Jews Don't Need 177 00:10:41,710 --> 00:10:46,110 S1: Jesus and Other Misconceptions Reflections of a Jewish Believer. Avi Snider. 178 00:10:46,110 --> 00:10:51,439 S1: You can find out more about avi@chris.org. Chris Fabry live.org. 179 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,720 S1: I got a bunch of questions. I got a whole 180 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,679 S1: row of questions, but I think the better thing to 181 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,040 S1: do is to talk with Leonard in Fort Lauderdale, because 182 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,959 S1: Leonard is coming from a very different perspective on this 183 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,800 S1: whole thing. And I really want to hear what you 184 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,439 S1: have to say. Hi, Leonard. Go right ahead. 185 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,600 S3: Hi. Uh, first of all, Jews do not need Jesus 186 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,719 S3: or any other religion whatsoever. It's not part of the 187 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,120 S3: Jewish ideology and part of the Jewish religion. It never 188 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,559 S3: has been and it never will be. Organizations such as 189 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,880 S3: Jews for Jesus, they are Christian Baptist organizations. They've been 190 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,640 S3: funded by Christian Baptists. There has never been Jews in 191 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:32,800 S3: there for the most part. There's a few little Jews 192 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,839 S3: who have been misguided and misconstrued and don't know what 193 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:37,760 S3: they're talking about. 194 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,880 S1: But Avi is really let me just make this a conversation, Leonard. 195 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,930 S1: So Avi is really not Jewish. He's. What do you. 196 00:11:46,929 --> 00:11:48,490 S3: Think? Convert to Christianity. 197 00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:49,490 S1: Okay. And if. 198 00:11:49,530 --> 00:11:49,809 S3: You. 199 00:11:50,450 --> 00:11:53,569 S1: And if you convert. If you become a a Christian 200 00:11:53,570 --> 00:11:57,209 S1: or a messianic. There's no such. You don't think there's anything, uh, 201 00:11:57,370 --> 00:11:59,610 S1: such as a Messianic Jew, right? 202 00:12:00,570 --> 00:12:05,210 S3: We call Messianic Jews something very simple, a Christian. And 203 00:12:05,210 --> 00:12:07,690 S3: by the way, you know, if you go to the 204 00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:10,730 S3: story of Ruth, you'll find that you can convert to 205 00:12:10,770 --> 00:12:15,530 S3: become Jewish and you're considered 100% Jewish, just like Ruth was. 206 00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:20,449 S3: On the flip side, if you go out to another faith, 207 00:12:20,450 --> 00:12:24,770 S3: and Christianity clearly is a different faith than Judaism, and 208 00:12:24,770 --> 00:12:27,170 S3: everybody has their own faith in the right to it. And, 209 00:12:27,210 --> 00:12:30,210 S3: you know, we love our Christian friends. So do I especially. Sure. 210 00:12:30,250 --> 00:12:32,170 S3: But it's a different thing. It is not the same 211 00:12:32,170 --> 00:12:36,569 S3: religion in any way, shape or form. It's not, you know, 212 00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:40,890 S3: being Jewish is not being Jewish, you know, being Christianity 213 00:12:40,929 --> 00:12:44,380 S3: minus Jesus. It's a completely different religion. 214 00:12:44,740 --> 00:12:47,100 S1: Okay, stay right there. Leonard, let me get Avi to 215 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:50,339 S1: respond to that. And you two have a conversation. Go ahead. Avi. 216 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:53,860 S2: Well, first of all, Leonard, I'm grateful that you called. Thanks. 217 00:12:53,860 --> 00:12:57,540 S2: You've raised a number of issues. Uh, we could take 218 00:12:57,540 --> 00:13:01,220 S2: a lot of time dissecting each one. Um, I think 219 00:13:01,260 --> 00:13:04,219 S2: the best and the most important place to actually start 220 00:13:05,059 --> 00:13:07,819 S2: is the central issue. And the central issue is who 221 00:13:07,820 --> 00:13:11,179 S2: is Jesus? Who is Yeshua? If Jesus is not the 222 00:13:11,179 --> 00:13:14,260 S2: Jewish Messiah, according to according to the Hebrew scriptures, if 223 00:13:14,260 --> 00:13:16,780 S2: he's not the Messiah, according to Moses and the prophets, 224 00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:20,660 S2: then um, we Jews should have nothing to do with him. 225 00:13:20,660 --> 00:13:23,500 S2: And for that matter, neither should non-Jews, because he's then 226 00:13:24,179 --> 00:13:28,540 S2: a false prophet. He's a false Messiah, and who needs him? Um. 227 00:13:28,540 --> 00:13:32,739 S2: If he is the Messiah, according to Moses and the prophets, 228 00:13:33,179 --> 00:13:36,179 S2: then as Jews, we are commanded to heed what he 229 00:13:36,179 --> 00:13:39,459 S2: says to follow him. That's that's stated clearly in the law. 230 00:13:39,740 --> 00:13:43,630 S2: So the issue comes down to to who's Jesus if 231 00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:45,710 S2: he's the if he's the Messiah, if he's who he 232 00:13:45,710 --> 00:13:48,830 S2: claimed to be, then the most Jewish thing that we. Well, 233 00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:51,510 S2: let me finish. If he's the. If he's the Jewish Messiah, 234 00:13:51,550 --> 00:13:53,829 S2: then the most Jewish thing that we can do as 235 00:13:53,830 --> 00:13:57,829 S2: Jews is to believe in him. Because what's more Jewish 236 00:13:58,350 --> 00:14:02,510 S2: than than believing in the Messiah. So I would like 237 00:14:02,510 --> 00:14:04,430 S2: to ask you, who would you who would you say 238 00:14:04,429 --> 00:14:05,270 S2: Jesus is? 239 00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:11,270 S3: Okay. Jesus, if he existed at all, was just a man. No. 240 00:14:11,470 --> 00:14:13,750 S3: No more, no more and no less. 241 00:14:14,110 --> 00:14:16,470 S2: So you would have a question as to whether or 242 00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:18,870 S2: not he existed in the first place, or whether maybe 243 00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:20,230 S2: he's just a myth. Yeah. 244 00:14:20,830 --> 00:14:26,950 S3: Because there's no actual evidence. Firsthand evidence from a historian 245 00:14:26,950 --> 00:14:31,590 S3: at that time talked about him. And Josephus, you know, 246 00:14:31,630 --> 00:14:34,630 S3: has been forged, and that's a fact. But the point is, 247 00:14:34,950 --> 00:14:36,670 S3: let's just say you have a messiah. 248 00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:37,270 S2: Okay? 249 00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:41,970 S3: Okay. The Jewish religion would never, ever recognize a Messiah 250 00:14:42,010 --> 00:14:45,890 S3: as a deity, as some entity that you pray to. 251 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:51,210 S3: So that's a key difference between Christianity and Judaism. The 252 00:14:51,210 --> 00:14:55,290 S3: idea that the Messiah is a part of God and 253 00:14:55,290 --> 00:14:58,530 S3: that God is part of the Messiah as opposed to 254 00:14:58,570 --> 00:15:02,530 S3: a Messiah being a servant of God, a separate entity, 255 00:15:02,930 --> 00:15:06,650 S3: just like Moses was. You know, the most revered prophet 256 00:15:06,650 --> 00:15:10,690 S3: of all in all three Abrahamic religions. But nobody's calling 257 00:15:10,690 --> 00:15:12,050 S3: him part of God. 258 00:15:12,090 --> 00:15:15,250 S2: Let me respond to that. May I? Let me let 259 00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:17,490 S2: me let me respond to that. What if I were 260 00:15:17,490 --> 00:15:20,610 S2: to say to you that there's evidence in our own scriptures, 261 00:15:20,610 --> 00:15:24,330 S2: in the Hebrew Scriptures, that whoever the Messiah is, that 262 00:15:24,330 --> 00:15:26,290 S2: on the one hand, he will be fully human, but 263 00:15:26,290 --> 00:15:28,730 S2: on the other hand, he'll be God who comes to 264 00:15:28,730 --> 00:15:31,170 S2: us in the flesh. If you take a look, for example, 265 00:15:31,490 --> 00:15:36,090 S2: at Isaiah chapter nine, verse six in the English translation. Uh, 266 00:15:36,130 --> 00:15:42,140 S2: it's a messianic prophecy. It says that, um, A son 267 00:15:42,140 --> 00:15:44,060 S2: will be born to us. A child will be given 268 00:15:44,060 --> 00:15:46,220 S2: to us a nice Jewish boy. It goes on to 269 00:15:46,220 --> 00:15:49,580 S2: say that his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty 270 00:15:49,620 --> 00:15:54,580 S2: God in Hebrew. Everlasting father, Prince of peace. Uh, there 271 00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:55,500 S2: is evidence. 272 00:15:55,980 --> 00:15:57,980 S3: Uh, no, I have to respond to that. 273 00:15:58,020 --> 00:15:58,460 S2: Okay. 274 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:03,979 S3: And first of all, the verse that you're reading is incorrect. 275 00:16:04,820 --> 00:16:07,940 S3: The verse does not say the child will be called God. 276 00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:11,900 S3: The verse clearly says from the Hebrew, by the way, 277 00:16:12,380 --> 00:16:15,340 S3: that the child that the child was named by God, 278 00:16:15,820 --> 00:16:19,540 S3: it's named by God. He isn't God. He's named by God. Also. 279 00:16:19,820 --> 00:16:22,940 S2: What is his name? The name is LG bore. You 280 00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:25,940 S2: don't go around naming a nice Jewish boy LG bore. 281 00:16:26,540 --> 00:16:27,180 S2: It's a title. 282 00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:30,140 S3: God is with us does not mean that the child 283 00:16:30,140 --> 00:16:33,260 S3: is actually God. That's a big miss. You know that's 284 00:16:33,260 --> 00:16:34,940 S3: a big miss. You have to. 285 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:37,820 S2: Remember that would be your interpretation. But that's not the 286 00:16:37,820 --> 00:16:40,630 S2: interpretation of those of us who were Jewish and who 287 00:16:40,630 --> 00:16:43,670 S2: believe that that he is the promised Messiah. Let me 288 00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:44,750 S2: respond to something else. 289 00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:45,590 S3: Hold on. Wait. 290 00:16:46,070 --> 00:16:48,910 S2: Let me let me respond to something else that you raised. 291 00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:50,030 S2: I'm sorry. 292 00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:55,630 S3: Let me finish with verse nine of Isaiah, which you 293 00:16:55,630 --> 00:16:58,990 S3: also have to do is look at the entire verse 294 00:16:58,990 --> 00:17:01,950 S3: and look at where it took place. Now, do you 295 00:17:01,990 --> 00:17:05,590 S3: notice that the Philistines are named in Isaiah nine six 296 00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:07,430 S3: in Isaiah nine? 297 00:17:09,109 --> 00:17:09,510 S2: Go on. 298 00:17:09,550 --> 00:17:12,469 S3: Have you ever gone through the entire chapter? So when 299 00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:14,750 S3: does the birth of that child take place? Is a 300 00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:18,230 S3: really good question. Does it take place 2000 years ago 301 00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:22,550 S3: during Roman occupation of Israel, or does it take place 302 00:17:22,550 --> 00:17:27,630 S3: when the Philistines existed, the Philistines didn't exist 2000 years ago, 303 00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:33,230 S3: the Philistines 2700 years ago. That's when that birth took place. 304 00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:36,510 S2: Leonard, you and I could get into a very easy 305 00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:40,080 S2: back and forth. You're raising arguments that that we've heard 306 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,119 S2: that are that are standard. Um, anti-missionary arguments that are 307 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,720 S2: designed to, to try to, to rest the context. Um, 308 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,480 S2: out of its context. The point is that you have 309 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,560 S2: to let Scripture interpret Scripture itself. The evidence for, for 310 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,320 S2: the deity of the Messiah, whoever is very clear. But, 311 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,880 S2: you know, um, the, for me, the central issue number 312 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,119 S2: one is whether or not we still believe there's a 313 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,520 S2: Messiah who's coming and if he is coming, what's his purpose? 314 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,800 S2: I believe very, very clearly that the scriptures teach that 315 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,040 S2: when the Messiah comes, uh, initially he has to perform 316 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,800 S2: an incredibly important function for us. He has to offer 317 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,719 S2: his life as the payment for our sins, which is 318 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,400 S2: why he would have to be a perfect man. He 319 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,760 S2: has to offer his life as the payment for our sins. 320 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,840 S2: He has to rise from the dead so that we 321 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,960 S2: can approach him in repentance and be forgiven. Um, this 322 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,490 S2: is clearly taught in the scriptures. You know, earlier you 323 00:18:39,530 --> 00:18:42,970 S2: were you were objecting to, to, to people believing in 324 00:18:42,970 --> 00:18:45,970 S2: Jesus because you were talking about Judaism. I'm not talking 325 00:18:45,970 --> 00:18:48,370 S2: about Judaism. I'm not talking about an ism. I'm not 326 00:18:48,369 --> 00:18:51,130 S2: talking about a religion. I'm not talking about Christianity. I'm 327 00:18:51,170 --> 00:18:55,330 S2: talking about how we become reconciled to God, how we 328 00:18:55,369 --> 00:18:59,610 S2: find forgiveness for our sins and the law. There was 329 00:18:59,609 --> 00:19:02,810 S2: a whole system whereby we had to offer sacrifices for sins. 330 00:19:02,810 --> 00:19:07,129 S2: That system is gone. That system is gone. What are 331 00:19:07,130 --> 00:19:09,369 S2: we supposed to do? Be nice people, live good lives, 332 00:19:09,369 --> 00:19:11,570 S2: wake up every morning and say hi, how are you? 333 00:19:11,570 --> 00:19:14,010 S2: I hope you have a nice day and trust that 334 00:19:14,010 --> 00:19:17,690 S2: that's sufficient. We really have to look to what the 335 00:19:17,850 --> 00:19:22,170 S2: what the Lord himself said to us in terms of 336 00:19:22,410 --> 00:19:25,490 S2: knowing that we can have a perfect atonement and forgiveness 337 00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:28,330 S2: for our sins, and a correct relationship with the God 338 00:19:28,330 --> 00:19:31,850 S2: of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I think that that is 339 00:19:32,170 --> 00:19:35,620 S2: that that relationship is only available when we repent and 340 00:19:35,619 --> 00:19:38,220 S2: place our faith in the promised Messiah, Yeshua and the 341 00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:42,460 S2: promised Messiah, Jesus. We can divert the issue. You know 342 00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:45,700 S2: we can. We can say, oh, these Jews for Jesus 343 00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:47,940 S2: are terrible people. They're not really Jews. They're a bunch 344 00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:50,020 S2: of Martians. They used to be Jews. They used to 345 00:19:50,020 --> 00:19:54,780 S2: be Norwegians. And then they converted and became Italians. You know, 346 00:19:54,859 --> 00:19:57,859 S2: you can divert the issue, you can sling mud, you know, 347 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,340 S2: and take the old tactic of discrediting the message by 348 00:20:00,340 --> 00:20:02,780 S2: discrediting the message. But the issue is whether or not 349 00:20:02,780 --> 00:20:05,300 S2: we have the courage to look at the issue with 350 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,980 S2: a clear mind. Um, so many of us are afraid 351 00:20:08,980 --> 00:20:12,980 S2: to look at the issue because of the cost we know. 352 00:20:13,020 --> 00:20:15,580 S1: Were you afraid of that, Avi? Well, were you sure 353 00:20:15,740 --> 00:20:18,020 S1: at any point before 1978? 354 00:20:18,140 --> 00:20:23,459 S2: Sure. Um, I would have to say that, um, that, uh, that, 355 00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:25,980 S2: that is the central issue that keeps so many of us. 356 00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:29,260 S2: I remember talking once to years ago, I talked to, um, 357 00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:32,340 S2: a bright young rabbi. We were both young. He was 358 00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:35,429 S2: young and bright, right? You know, and he gave me 359 00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:39,350 S2: all of his theological arguments, including some that we've heard today. 360 00:20:39,390 --> 00:20:42,350 S2: He gave me all of his theological arguments for why 361 00:20:42,390 --> 00:20:46,030 S2: maybe Jesus can be the the Savior of the Gentiles, 362 00:20:46,030 --> 00:20:48,510 S2: but it can't possibly be the Savior of the Jews. 363 00:20:48,510 --> 00:20:51,590 S2: And I said to him honestly, I said, listen, you 364 00:20:51,630 --> 00:20:54,550 S2: don't have to. You don't have to like me. But, um, 365 00:20:54,670 --> 00:20:57,110 S2: don't insult my intelligence. We both know that these aren't 366 00:20:57,109 --> 00:20:59,350 S2: your real reasons. He said. Yes they are. I said, no, 367 00:20:59,350 --> 00:21:01,310 S2: they're not. I know your real reasons. We grew up 368 00:21:01,310 --> 00:21:04,350 S2: with the same real. We grew up with the same objections. 369 00:21:04,350 --> 00:21:07,030 S2: We have the same real reason. I said, I know 370 00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:10,030 S2: what your real reason is. He said what? I said, well, 371 00:21:10,030 --> 00:21:11,550 S2: let me ask you a question and you don't even 372 00:21:11,550 --> 00:21:15,870 S2: have to answer me. He said, okay, go ahead. I said, 373 00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:19,429 S2: if you examined the scriptures with an open mind without 374 00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:24,389 S2: any preconceived ideas, if you examine our scriptures with an 375 00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:27,390 S2: open mind, and if you came to the conclusion on 376 00:21:27,390 --> 00:21:31,109 S2: your own that Yeshua is the Messiah, according to Moses 377 00:21:31,109 --> 00:21:34,480 S2: and the prophets, and if you openly believed that and 378 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,480 S2: placed your faith in him, what would you lose? You'd 379 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,320 S2: lose your wife, guaranteed. You lose your children. You'd lose 380 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,800 S2: your job. You'd lose the respect of everyone you know. 381 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,159 S2: I said, the only people who'd stand with you. The 382 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,720 S2: crazy Jews for Jesus like me. I said, that's the issue, 383 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,919 S2: isn't it? It's. It's the cost. It's just too dangerous 384 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,760 S2: for us to even consider, isn't it? And you know 385 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,320 S2: what he said? He said nothing because he was a 386 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,040 S2: man of integrity. He wasn't going to fabricate a false 387 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,280 S2: answer and say, no, that's not the issue. But he 388 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,240 S2: wasn't going to acknowledge it either. And to this day, 389 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,400 S2: I respect the fact that he was a man of integrity. 390 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,600 S2: I hope that if I ever see him again, I'll 391 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,840 S2: discover that he did finally look at the issue with 392 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,359 S2: an open mind and come to the conclusion that that, uh, 393 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,639 S2: that Jesus is the one of whom Moses and the 394 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,880 S2: prophets wrote, and that is Jews, that we must obey 395 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,679 S2: him and follow him and live for him. 396 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,650 S1: Um, we got to take a break here in a minute, Leonard. 397 00:22:33,730 --> 00:22:36,570 S1: I don't know if you will allow us to do this, 398 00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:40,090 S1: but I'd love to send you a copy of Avi's book. 399 00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:43,170 S1: You probably. My guess is you probably don't want us 400 00:22:43,170 --> 00:22:44,610 S1: to send it to you, right? 401 00:22:44,890 --> 00:22:47,409 S3: Well, actually, Chris, I'd like to respond to some of 402 00:22:47,410 --> 00:22:48,450 S3: the points that he made. 403 00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:53,210 S1: Well, and answer my question first. Answer my question first. 404 00:22:53,290 --> 00:22:55,890 S3: No, I have a lot of religious books from all 405 00:22:55,890 --> 00:22:58,250 S3: different authors, so that's important. 406 00:22:58,770 --> 00:23:01,889 S1: All right. Pick one thing, then pick one thing because 407 00:23:01,890 --> 00:23:03,210 S1: I got to go to a break. What do you 408 00:23:03,210 --> 00:23:04,050 S1: want to respond to? 409 00:23:05,010 --> 00:23:08,050 S3: First of all, in the Tanakh, which is what Christians 410 00:23:08,050 --> 00:23:10,930 S3: call the Old Testament, there was not a single verse 411 00:23:11,290 --> 00:23:15,129 S3: that says that a God will have will be a man. 412 00:23:15,490 --> 00:23:17,850 S3: And then a man was going to die in. Since 413 00:23:18,210 --> 00:23:22,729 S3: in fact, human sacrifice is absolutely forbidden throughout what you 414 00:23:22,770 --> 00:23:27,090 S3: call the Old Testament. In fact, um, Isaiah nine six 415 00:23:27,090 --> 00:23:30,109 S3: does not occur 2000 years ago, and it clearly shows 416 00:23:30,109 --> 00:23:34,750 S3: in the timeline that it happened 2700 years ago. And additionally, 417 00:23:34,750 --> 00:23:38,590 S3: even Isaiah 14, it's never says Virgin. It says young woman. 418 00:23:38,830 --> 00:23:41,830 S3: And it took time during the time of the Assyrians. 419 00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:44,710 S1: So Christians who look to the old, what we call 420 00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:48,870 S1: the Old Testament, who look to those messianic prophecies in 421 00:23:48,869 --> 00:23:53,070 S1: the Psalms and other places. And in Isaiah, we're we're 422 00:23:53,109 --> 00:23:55,109 S1: fabricating that we're making it up. 423 00:23:56,430 --> 00:23:59,390 S3: You personally are not fabricating it. I wouldn't, you know, 424 00:23:59,430 --> 00:24:02,869 S3: charge you with that, but you are relying on mistranslation 425 00:24:03,390 --> 00:24:07,310 S3: rather than going from the Hebrew directly to English. And 426 00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:10,790 S3: also you're not going to the entire verse. So if 427 00:24:10,790 --> 00:24:14,470 S3: a verse says that something happens when the Philistines are present, 428 00:24:14,869 --> 00:24:16,750 S3: clearly it can't be 2000 years ago. 429 00:24:16,790 --> 00:24:18,429 S2: Leonard, let me ask you this before we go to 430 00:24:18,430 --> 00:24:20,030 S2: a break. If it happened, then, if it was a 431 00:24:20,030 --> 00:24:23,190 S2: prophecy that took place all those years ago, then who 432 00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:23,670 S2: is it? 433 00:24:23,910 --> 00:24:25,350 S3: Who was it? Do I know his name? It could 434 00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:26,709 S3: be Ralph or Sam. It doesn't. 435 00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:28,600 S2: Know. Who was it? It's a prophecy. Are you saying. 436 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,879 S2: Are you saying it was fulfilled? It was prophecy. You know, 437 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,280 S2: when the prophecy was given isn't the issue. You're. You're 438 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,200 S2: saying that the prophecy was fulfilled. So who was this person? No, no, no, 439 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,479 S2: look at the whole context. You know, you know, you're 440 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,240 S2: the one that brought up the whole context. It says 441 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,760 S2: that the government will be upon his shoulders. There'll be 442 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,840 S2: no end to his government. So who was this person? 443 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,439 S2: Who was he? Tell me who he was. If it 444 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,159 S2: wasn't Yeshua, okay? And if he's not speaking about God 445 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,320 S2: taking on human form so that he can die for 446 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,200 S2: our sins and rise from the dead, and then and 447 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,000 S2: then be our eternal King. So if this already happened, 448 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,199 S2: who is it? Who? Just tell me. Tell me who 449 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,160 S2: he was in history. Who was he? Who was he? 450 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,679 S2: Who was he? And how come there's no record of 451 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,880 S2: it happening? You know, if there was an everlasting kingdom 452 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,600 S2: of righteousness and peace that already happened, you know, 2000 years, 453 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,639 S2: you know, 4000 years ago, whenever you want to say 454 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,920 S2: the prophecy occurred. Um, who was he? Give me his name. 455 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,280 S2: Tell me. And why don't we know about him? I 456 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,969 S2: believe that we do know about him. I believe that 457 00:25:28,970 --> 00:25:30,570 S2: we know very clearly who it was. 458 00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:34,570 S1: All right, Leonard, I'm really glad that you called. Thanks 459 00:25:34,570 --> 00:25:37,250 S1: for the conversation here. Avi Snyder is with us. If 460 00:25:37,250 --> 00:25:38,649 S1: you want to find out more about him, you can 461 00:25:38,650 --> 00:25:43,050 S1: go to chris.org. Our featured resource today is his book, 462 00:25:43,050 --> 00:25:47,770 S1: Jews Don't Need Jesus and Other Misconceptions. Find out more at. 463 00:25:47,770 --> 00:26:05,690 S1: Chris Fabriclive dot. Com. We're talking with Avi Schneider today 464 00:26:05,690 --> 00:26:07,770 S1: on Chris Fabry live. Thanks a lot for joining us. 465 00:26:07,770 --> 00:26:10,850 S1: He's European director of Jews for Jesus and author of 466 00:26:10,850 --> 00:26:15,010 S1: our featured resource, Jews Don't Need Jesus and Other Misconceptions, 467 00:26:15,369 --> 00:26:18,570 S1: Reflections of a Jewish Believer. We're just talking with Leonard 468 00:26:18,609 --> 00:26:22,330 S1: from Florida, obviously, coming from a different perspective. And some 469 00:26:22,330 --> 00:26:25,410 S1: of these things you've heard before, Avi, it's it's clear. 470 00:26:25,460 --> 00:26:28,980 S1: And you didn't try to refute everything that he said. 471 00:26:29,140 --> 00:26:33,659 S1: I just want you to go back from your own experience, 472 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:39,260 S1: maybe your own life, and talk about what attracted you. 473 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:43,220 S1: If many Jewish people would say the same thing that 474 00:26:43,220 --> 00:26:47,220 S1: Leonard would say. And my guess is they probably would. Um, 475 00:26:47,420 --> 00:26:51,340 S1: maybe not in the detail that he would about Isaiah nine. Um, 476 00:26:51,340 --> 00:26:53,939 S1: but if many would say, you know, you become a 477 00:26:53,980 --> 00:26:57,300 S1: Christian and you're not Jewish anymore, you, you can quote 478 00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:01,860 S1: unquote convert. Um, how did you open your own mind 479 00:27:01,859 --> 00:27:07,460 S1: to the possibility that Yeshua is the promised Messiah? 480 00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:10,419 S2: Well, I was raised in, as you mentioned, at the 481 00:27:10,420 --> 00:27:12,460 S2: top of the program, I was raised in a very 482 00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:15,540 S2: traditional conservative Jewish home in New York City. And the 483 00:27:15,540 --> 00:27:17,859 S2: fact that I'm Jewish has always been very central to 484 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:22,460 S2: my existence, my self-identity. It still is. By the time 485 00:27:22,460 --> 00:27:25,470 S2: I was in my early 20s, though, if if you 486 00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:27,350 S2: asked me if I believed in God, I would have 487 00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:30,590 S2: said no. I would have identified myself as a Jewish atheist, 488 00:27:30,910 --> 00:27:33,390 S2: but I wasn't really an atheist. I was just very 489 00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:36,430 S2: angry with God. I was angry because of the Holocaust. 490 00:27:36,430 --> 00:27:39,189 S2: I was angry because I had I had bought into 491 00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:41,989 S2: a whole nihilistic philosophy that says that everything that we 492 00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:45,070 S2: do with our lives, everything we ever accomplish or learn, 493 00:27:45,070 --> 00:27:48,469 S2: that it's ultimately pointless. And if we really want to 494 00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:50,550 S2: be honest with ourselves, then we have to accept that 495 00:27:50,550 --> 00:27:55,950 S2: our lives are futile and derive satisfaction from our work. Well, 496 00:27:55,950 --> 00:27:58,710 S2: there's a problem with that. You can't be happy with 497 00:27:58,710 --> 00:28:00,710 S2: anything that you do. If you think that everything that 498 00:28:00,710 --> 00:28:04,709 S2: you do is ultimately pointless. I remember one day I 499 00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:08,550 S2: literally got so angry at what I thought was the 500 00:28:08,550 --> 00:28:11,870 S2: futility of my life that I shook my fist at 501 00:28:11,869 --> 00:28:15,190 S2: the ceiling, I screamed, I said, how dare you do 502 00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:17,550 S2: this to me, you know? And then, then this thought 503 00:28:17,550 --> 00:28:21,070 S2: came to me and the thought was, you're angry, huh? Well, 504 00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:23,280 S2: who are you angry at? I thought you said you 505 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,320 S2: were an atheist. And I realized that my own anger 506 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,720 S2: at God proved that I knew that he had to exist. Uh, 507 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,480 S2: you know, scriptures challenge people like me who, um, we 508 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,000 S2: deny God exists, and then we blame him for everything 509 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,880 S2: that's wrong in the world. And Scripture says, you will 510 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,080 S2: seek me and you will find me when you search 511 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,160 S2: for me with all your heart. And I will be 512 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,200 S2: found by you. And so I put aside my anger. 513 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,760 S2: I started to look up, and when I started looking 514 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,000 S2: with an open mind, God responded to that by bringing 515 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,960 S2: two types of people into my life. He brought Jews 516 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,320 S2: for Jesus into my life, and he brought a family 517 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,400 S2: of of Gentile Christians who cared enough about me to 518 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,200 S2: tell me what I needed to know. And they weren't 519 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,520 S2: put off by my by my New York Jewish assertiveness. 520 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,720 S2: I remember I saw these Jews for Jesus on the 521 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,800 S2: streets of New York. They were handing out tracts. This 522 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,600 S2: guy was wearing this dark blue shirt with the big 523 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,440 S2: white letters. And I responded, the way many of us 524 00:29:21,570 --> 00:29:24,810 S2: respond in a knee jerk reaction. I turned to the 525 00:29:24,810 --> 00:29:27,610 S2: friend I was, I was looking, I was walking with. 526 00:29:27,610 --> 00:29:30,690 S2: I said, someone should tell this idiot that you cannot 527 00:29:30,690 --> 00:29:33,530 S2: be Jewish and believe in Jesus. And my friend said, 528 00:29:33,530 --> 00:29:37,770 S2: tell him yourself. And I took the literature and I 529 00:29:37,810 --> 00:29:41,370 S2: kept the literature. And the literature had a number of 530 00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:44,930 S2: passages from the Hebrew scriptures, you know, and it gets 531 00:29:44,930 --> 00:29:48,170 S2: back to what I said before, when we're willing to 532 00:29:48,210 --> 00:29:54,170 S2: finally put aside the preconceptions and the biases and the 533 00:29:54,170 --> 00:29:58,930 S2: fear of finding out what it might, whether or not 534 00:29:58,930 --> 00:30:02,530 S2: it might be true, then God responds, that's the promise 535 00:30:02,530 --> 00:30:04,410 S2: that he makes. You will seek me when you search 536 00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:07,170 S2: for me with all your heart. As I studied my 537 00:30:07,170 --> 00:30:10,810 S2: own scriptures, as I read what other, um, uh, Jewish 538 00:30:10,810 --> 00:30:13,570 S2: writers who had come to faith in Jesus had to 539 00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:17,210 S2: say about the identity of the Messiah. I was faced 540 00:30:17,210 --> 00:30:22,580 S2: with really, um, very, very powerful truth. Um, and you know, 541 00:30:22,620 --> 00:30:26,340 S2: if Jesus isn't the Messiah, then there isn't a Messiah. Uh, the, 542 00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:29,340 S2: the evidence is really overwhelming. The issue. The issue isn't 543 00:30:29,340 --> 00:30:31,180 S2: the lack of evidence. It's never been a question of 544 00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:32,780 S2: a lack of evidence. It's never been a question of 545 00:30:32,780 --> 00:30:35,860 S2: God being silent. It's a question of whether or not 546 00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:40,100 S2: we're willing to embrace that, that evidence and make a 547 00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:43,420 S2: commitment and give him our hearts. That's true for all 548 00:30:43,420 --> 00:30:45,500 S2: of us, you know? Um, yes, we all have to 549 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:47,660 S2: decide who do we want to whose approval do we 550 00:30:47,660 --> 00:30:49,900 S2: want the approval of people or the approval or the 551 00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:51,100 S2: approval of God? 552 00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:55,100 S1: There are many misconceptions that you write about in the book, 553 00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:58,740 S1: but you just mentioned the Holocaust. Chapter 17 is the 554 00:30:58,740 --> 00:31:03,060 S1: misconception is the Holocaust has made Jewish evangelism all but impossible. 555 00:31:03,340 --> 00:31:05,620 S1: I want you to talk about that. But but did 556 00:31:05,620 --> 00:31:09,380 S1: the Holocaust, did that affect your family at all? 557 00:31:09,740 --> 00:31:11,820 S2: Well, I don't think there's a Jewish family alive that 558 00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:16,980 S2: wasn't affected in some fashion. Um, my, my parents were 559 00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:20,910 S2: already in the States. Um, but I remember as a 560 00:31:20,910 --> 00:31:25,270 S2: boy of, uh, they must have been either family or, uh, 561 00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:31,550 S2: family friends. I remember, um, survivors being in, uh, our home. Uh, 562 00:31:31,910 --> 00:31:36,150 S2: my father, um, many years ago, remarried when my mother 563 00:31:36,150 --> 00:31:40,510 S2: passed and my stepmother, his wife was a Holocaust survivor. She, uh, 564 00:31:40,510 --> 00:31:44,590 S2: she escaped, um, Germany, uh, on, uh, what are called 565 00:31:44,590 --> 00:31:49,150 S2: the Kindertransport. These were trains that left Germany shortly before 566 00:31:49,150 --> 00:31:54,270 S2: the war. Uh, taking Jewish children, uh, out of Germany. And, uh, 567 00:31:54,270 --> 00:31:57,510 S2: so she was one of the, the children who came 568 00:31:57,550 --> 00:32:01,230 S2: out of Germany in the Kindertransport. So, you know, all 569 00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:04,270 S2: of us in my generation and even the generation under 570 00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:07,190 S2: me and certainly the generation above me, you know, it's 571 00:32:07,390 --> 00:32:10,910 S2: it's a central fact of our of our lives. You know, 572 00:32:10,950 --> 00:32:12,990 S2: we learn about it young if we were born after 573 00:32:12,990 --> 00:32:19,200 S2: the war and it's very formative. Um, And the argument 574 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,720 S2: that that because of the Holocaust, um, Jewish people can't 575 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,720 S2: believe in Jesus. It's, um, it's just not true. I've 576 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,960 S2: had the privilege of knowing many Holocaust survivors who, who 577 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,240 S2: came to faith, um, a dear, dear friend of mine 578 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,960 S2: who is now with the Lord Friedland. Uh, he came 579 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,120 S2: to faith in Jesus actually, just before the war in 580 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,040 S2: 1938 in in Poland. He survived the Warsaw Ghetto. He 581 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,360 S2: told me stories of messianic community that existed in Warsaw. 582 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,520 S2: They all died. He was the only one that survived. Um, 583 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,280 S2: people like Yaakov, Yosh, he and Rami went on to 584 00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:00,560 S2: be great scholars. Um, so many people. Um, Manfred and 585 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,360 S2: Laura Wertheim, who are friends of mine who are still 586 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,160 S2: alive today. There's so many, uh, Carl Flesch, um, a 587 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,640 S2: man who survived the, the Budapest ghetto and, and came to, 588 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,960 S2: came to faith. He lives in Budapest, where I live now. 589 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,220 S2: The fact, you know, the notion that the Holocaust has 590 00:33:17,220 --> 00:33:21,620 S2: made it impossible for Jewish people to hear the gospel 591 00:33:21,620 --> 00:33:25,700 S2: and to receive the gospel, it just simply isn't true. Um, 592 00:33:25,740 --> 00:33:28,500 S2: if that were true, that would mean the Gentile sin 593 00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:32,460 S2: is greater than God's sovereignty. And, you know, there's, there's 594 00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:35,620 S2: an indictment for those of us who want to use 595 00:33:35,980 --> 00:33:39,180 S2: the horror of history as a reason for not looking 596 00:33:40,340 --> 00:33:43,060 S2: at whether or not Jesus is the Messiah. The indictment 597 00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:47,900 S2: is this if men and women could survive the Holocaust 598 00:33:49,020 --> 00:33:52,820 S2: and go through that kind of tragedy, and yet have 599 00:33:52,820 --> 00:33:57,380 S2: the courage to look up at the question of whether 600 00:33:57,380 --> 00:33:59,900 S2: or not there is a real God and whether or 601 00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:02,740 S2: not Jesus is the promised Messiah. If there are people 602 00:34:02,740 --> 00:34:06,540 S2: who could go through that and look at that question, 603 00:34:06,540 --> 00:34:10,140 S2: those questions with an open mind and openly embrace what 604 00:34:10,140 --> 00:34:14,900 S2: they discover to be true, then how dare we use 605 00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:18,390 S2: the horror of history as an excuse for saying, well, 606 00:34:18,390 --> 00:34:19,990 S2: this is why I won't look at it. 607 00:34:22,390 --> 00:34:25,710 S1: And I have so many more questions to give you 608 00:34:25,710 --> 00:34:30,230 S1: about these misconceptions. But I think that one that I've 609 00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:37,390 S1: seen that's prominent in, even in evangelicalism is, um, you're 610 00:34:37,390 --> 00:34:39,350 S1: not the person, you're not the right person. If you're 611 00:34:39,350 --> 00:34:42,230 S1: not Jewish, then you can't, you know, you and Leonard 612 00:34:42,270 --> 00:34:46,029 S1: had a conversation that I can't have, you know, because 613 00:34:46,030 --> 00:34:48,989 S1: I can be discounted simply because I don't know what 614 00:34:48,989 --> 00:34:51,630 S1: it's like to be Jewish. I've never been Jewish. Um, 615 00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:55,069 S1: but I don't think that's true. I don't think that 616 00:34:55,070 --> 00:34:57,390 S1: you have to be Jewish in order to talk with 617 00:34:57,630 --> 00:35:02,109 S1: somebody who is Jewish about who Jesus really was. Do 618 00:35:02,110 --> 00:35:02,670 S1: you agree with me? 619 00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:06,549 S2: I do agree very much. Um, in fact, um, let 620 00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:09,390 S2: me tell you how, how God will very, very often 621 00:35:09,390 --> 00:35:14,239 S2: use both, uh, messianic Jews like me and, and non-Jewish 622 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,480 S2: Christians like you in a partnership in bringing the Jewish 623 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,840 S2: message of the Jewish Messiah to the Jewish people. God 624 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:26,719 S2: will use someone like me to capture a Jewish person's attention. Um, 625 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,839 S2: you know the gentleman who called in earlier. I don't 626 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,520 S2: know if he's ever called before, but he was provoked 627 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,440 S2: to call because he heard me. He heard that I 628 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,640 S2: was going to be on on the air. Um, we 629 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,360 S2: are a provocation, and that's okay. We capture our people's 630 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,600 S2: attention and we'll meet with them and they'll talk with us. 631 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,239 S2: And usually they want to know two things from us initially. 632 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,080 S2: They want to know what we believe, unless they've already 633 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,560 S2: done some research and armed themselves with counterarguments like the 634 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,040 S2: gentleman who called. But they'll want to know what we believe, 635 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,799 S2: and they'll want to know why we're so foolish as 636 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,120 S2: to believe it. What they don't want to know initially 637 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,960 S2: is whether or not it's true. Um, and so we'll talk. 638 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,049 S2: We'll meet once, twice, ten times. We'll have good conversations. 639 00:36:15,050 --> 00:36:17,850 S2: We'll have spirited conversations. You know, we choose a very 640 00:36:17,850 --> 00:36:21,570 S2: direct with each other. I don't know if you thought that, uh, 641 00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:23,650 S2: Leonard and I were having an argument. We weren't. We 642 00:36:23,690 --> 00:36:25,930 S2: were having a nice, friendly conversation. 643 00:36:27,010 --> 00:36:28,530 S1: It sounded tame to me. 644 00:36:29,210 --> 00:36:32,250 S2: Um, so we'll have spirited conversations, but when it gets 645 00:36:32,250 --> 00:36:34,209 S2: to the point where the person has to consider whether 646 00:36:34,210 --> 00:36:39,130 S2: or not it's true, that's when the conversation will end. Um, 647 00:36:39,489 --> 00:36:41,450 S2: and he won't want to meet with me any longer 648 00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:44,450 S2: and that's all right. But if there's a genuine interest there, 649 00:36:44,450 --> 00:36:46,250 S2: who does he want to meet with? Who is he 650 00:36:46,250 --> 00:36:48,690 S2: willing to talk to? You know, he'll talk to he'll 651 00:36:48,690 --> 00:36:54,970 S2: talk to someone like you. Why? Because you're safe. You're safe. Um, 652 00:36:55,410 --> 00:36:57,410 S2: and he can say to himself, well, this is just 653 00:36:57,410 --> 00:37:01,210 S2: a friendly, cross-cultural conversation. And then in the course of 654 00:37:01,210 --> 00:37:05,410 S2: continuing the conversation with you, he discovers that it is true. 655 00:37:05,530 --> 00:37:08,049 S2: Now he has to deal with the fact that he 656 00:37:08,050 --> 00:37:10,450 S2: has to act upon it. And that's when someone like 657 00:37:10,450 --> 00:37:12,500 S2: me has to come back into the picture. That's when 658 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:14,620 S2: he wants to be in touch with me, because he 659 00:37:14,620 --> 00:37:17,739 S2: wants to know that when he takes that step and 660 00:37:17,739 --> 00:37:20,500 S2: places his faith in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus, he's not 661 00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:21,740 S2: going to be standing alone. 662 00:37:22,219 --> 00:37:25,259 S1: Avi Schneider is the author of Jews Don't Need Jesus 663 00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:29,259 S1: and Other Misconceptions, Reflections of a Jewish Believer. We got 664 00:37:29,260 --> 00:37:32,379 S1: to go to another break. European director of Jews for 665 00:37:32,380 --> 00:37:36,620 S1: Jesus now. And it was this someone on the sidewalk 666 00:37:36,660 --> 00:37:40,740 S1: that you gave you a just a pamphlet that was 667 00:37:41,020 --> 00:37:41,980 S1: that was important. 668 00:37:42,020 --> 00:37:43,020 S2: That started it. 669 00:37:44,060 --> 00:37:44,420 S1: Wow. 670 00:37:44,540 --> 00:37:44,700 S2: Yeah. 671 00:37:44,739 --> 00:37:46,140 S1: Do you remember the name of that? 672 00:37:46,460 --> 00:37:49,460 S2: The name of the tract was Jews should not believe 673 00:37:49,460 --> 00:37:51,380 S2: in Jesus unless. 674 00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:57,060 S1: In a sense, that's exactly what you've written here. Only 675 00:37:57,060 --> 00:37:58,020 S1: a lot longer, right? 676 00:37:58,060 --> 00:37:59,060 S4: Quite a lot longer. 677 00:37:59,580 --> 00:38:01,780 S1: All right, let me take our final break. Avi Schneider 678 00:38:01,780 --> 00:38:16,589 S1: is our guest today on Chris Fabry Live. Whether you 679 00:38:16,590 --> 00:38:19,069 S1: need encouragement, hope, or just a friend to listen to 680 00:38:19,110 --> 00:38:21,950 S1: your heart, you're welcome at Chris Fabry Live to keep 681 00:38:21,950 --> 00:38:24,550 S1: this conversation going. I want to invite you to become 682 00:38:24,550 --> 00:38:27,870 S1: a back fence partner. Your monthly gift keeps us on 683 00:38:27,870 --> 00:38:30,870 S1: the air in your neighborhood. Find out about exclusive offers 684 00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:35,830 S1: and personal messages from yours truly. Call 86695 Favory or 685 00:38:35,830 --> 00:38:44,270 S1: automate your giving online@chris.org. Glad you're with us today. For 686 00:38:44,350 --> 00:38:46,830 S1: Avi Schneider, he is the European director of Jews for 687 00:38:46,830 --> 00:38:50,629 S1: Jesus and author of our featured resource, Jews Don't Need 688 00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:54,870 S1: Jesus and Other Misconceptions Reflections of a Jewish Believer. You 689 00:38:54,870 --> 00:39:00,350 S1: can find it@chris.org. Another important question we haven't dealt with 690 00:39:00,390 --> 00:39:03,910 S1: yet is the Bible says that the Jewish people are 691 00:39:03,950 --> 00:39:10,080 S1: God's chosen people, so it's. There are some Christians, many 692 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,279 S1: who would say, look, these are God's chosen people. You 693 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,160 S1: don't need to tell them about the gospel. You don't 694 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,080 S1: need to tell them about Jesus. They're chosen already. What 695 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:19,960 S1: do you say to that? 696 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,799 S2: Well, you have to understand what it means when the 697 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,279 S2: Hebrew Scriptures call is chosen. We are indeed the chosen people. 698 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,799 S2: But what does that mean? When the Hebrew Scriptures talk 699 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,960 S2: about us being chosen, this is not an individual chosenness 700 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:41,319 S2: unto salvation. This is a national call, a task. We 701 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,479 S2: were chosen to perform a task. In fact, Israel as 702 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,280 S2: a people, only received one call. So what's the call? 703 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,600 S2: Very simply, we were called to be an evangelistic light 704 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,799 S2: to the nations. We were called to be a community 705 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,080 S2: of witnesses to the world. God says in Isaiah chapter 43, 706 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,080 S2: he says, this people I have formed for myself, they 707 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,569 S2: will declare my praise. You could even say that God 708 00:40:10,570 --> 00:40:12,810 S2: chose the Jews because he loves the Gentiles so much, 709 00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:16,010 S2: and he wanted to make sure that there was a Scripture, 710 00:40:16,010 --> 00:40:17,890 S2: there was a Messiah, and there was a corps of 711 00:40:17,890 --> 00:40:20,969 S2: messengers to bring the message to the world. Think of 712 00:40:20,969 --> 00:40:24,850 S2: it for a second. The apostle Paul says that that 713 00:40:24,850 --> 00:40:27,850 S2: call for the Jewish people has not been revoked. And 714 00:40:27,850 --> 00:40:31,170 S2: the Apostle Paul, a nice Jewish boy from Tarsus. But 715 00:40:31,489 --> 00:40:33,650 S2: the apostle Paul was called to be the apostle to 716 00:40:33,690 --> 00:40:37,330 S2: the Gentiles. So why did he always begin his ministry 717 00:40:37,330 --> 00:40:40,890 S2: in every new city by first bringing the gospel to 718 00:40:40,890 --> 00:40:44,370 S2: us as fellow Jews? Because he loved us? Yes, because 719 00:40:44,370 --> 00:40:47,930 S2: of theological reasons, certainly, but because he was a strategist 720 00:40:47,930 --> 00:40:50,770 S2: as well. He understood the plan to bring the gospel. 721 00:40:50,770 --> 00:40:54,210 S2: You bring the message to the future messengers, so the 722 00:40:54,210 --> 00:40:56,330 S2: messengers can bring the message to the world so that 723 00:40:56,330 --> 00:40:59,250 S2: we can do our job. You see, we can't proclaim 724 00:40:59,250 --> 00:41:02,730 S2: the gospel until we believe the gospel. We can't believe 725 00:41:02,730 --> 00:41:05,810 S2: the gospel until we hear the gospel and we can't 726 00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:09,500 S2: hear the gospel unless someone brings it to us first. 727 00:41:09,540 --> 00:41:11,980 S2: I'll tell you something that might sound a little startling 728 00:41:11,980 --> 00:41:14,739 S2: or over the top, but you could argue that that 729 00:41:14,739 --> 00:41:16,700 S2: one of the best ways to interfere with the cause 730 00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:20,219 S2: of world evangelism is to keep the gospel away from 731 00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:23,580 S2: us Jews or. And not to pray for the salvation 732 00:41:23,580 --> 00:41:25,580 S2: of the Jewish people, and not to pray for those 733 00:41:25,580 --> 00:41:28,580 S2: of us who bring the gospel to our people. That's 734 00:41:28,580 --> 00:41:31,380 S2: the best way to stop world evangelism. Just keep it 735 00:41:31,380 --> 00:41:34,020 S2: away from the future messengers, and don't pray for the 736 00:41:34,020 --> 00:41:37,620 S2: salvation of our people, but give us the gospel and 737 00:41:37,620 --> 00:41:40,180 S2: be open to playing whatever part that God wants you 738 00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:43,020 S2: to play in bringing the gospel to our people, whether 739 00:41:43,020 --> 00:41:46,740 S2: it's through prayer, whether it's through sharing with your Jewish friends, colleagues, neighbors, 740 00:41:46,739 --> 00:41:49,820 S2: whether it's using us as a resource. Be open to that. 741 00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:52,779 S2: Give us the gospel, and Jewish hearts will turn to 742 00:41:52,820 --> 00:41:55,700 S2: the Lord, and we'll give the gospel to everyone we meet, 743 00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:57,700 S2: because that's why we were created. 744 00:41:59,660 --> 00:42:01,900 S1: One of the misconceptions that you write about Jewish people 745 00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:04,620 S1: can't believe because they are hardened. They're blind. They're veiled 746 00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:08,110 S1: from seeing the truth. You don't think that's true? 747 00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:11,710 S2: No. Um. You have to take Paul in full context. 748 00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:15,109 S2: He says that the that the hardening, the blindness is partial. 749 00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:17,790 S2: In fact, he says that what? We can't see the veil, 750 00:42:17,790 --> 00:42:21,109 S2: that that's over our eyes. According to the text, is 751 00:42:21,110 --> 00:42:23,870 S2: a veil that prevents us from understanding Moses. But he 752 00:42:23,870 --> 00:42:26,029 S2: says that veil is lifted in Christ. In other words, 753 00:42:26,030 --> 00:42:28,549 S2: when we hear the gospel and come to faith, the 754 00:42:28,550 --> 00:42:31,189 S2: veil is lifted. Now we can understand what Moses was 755 00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:34,950 S2: talking about, pointing us to Jesus. The hardening is partial, 756 00:42:34,989 --> 00:42:37,070 S2: he says. I mean, the most obvious proof of that 757 00:42:37,230 --> 00:42:40,710 S2: should be the fact that, um, I'm talking to you. 758 00:42:40,830 --> 00:42:44,670 S2: You know, there's always been a remnant of Jewish believers 759 00:42:44,670 --> 00:42:48,070 S2: in Jesus through the centuries, more today than ever before. 760 00:42:48,110 --> 00:42:52,390 S2: Very possibly. And if Paul thought that the hardening was 761 00:42:52,430 --> 00:42:55,190 S2: was insurmountable, then why did he spend so much of 762 00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:58,629 S2: his time bringing the gospel to his fellow Jews? Why 763 00:42:58,630 --> 00:43:01,670 S2: did Jesus, the Messiah, spend so much of his time 764 00:43:01,710 --> 00:43:05,010 S2: focusing on Uh, on us, his fellow Jews. 765 00:43:05,690 --> 00:43:08,370 S1: You've mentioned the gospel here a number of times. I 766 00:43:08,370 --> 00:43:11,090 S1: want you to explain that to a person who's listening, 767 00:43:11,090 --> 00:43:15,290 S1: who is coming from a Jewish perspective, because you and 768 00:43:15,290 --> 00:43:17,810 S1: Leonard probably agree on a lot of things about the 769 00:43:17,810 --> 00:43:22,650 S1: nature of sin, about our souls, and how we need 770 00:43:23,210 --> 00:43:27,330 S1: God's atoning atonement. You know, we need we need forgiveness. 771 00:43:27,690 --> 00:43:29,969 S1: How do you get that's different? So what's what's the 772 00:43:29,969 --> 00:43:32,690 S1: big deal about the gospel? What does it say to us? 773 00:43:32,930 --> 00:43:35,770 S2: Well, in gospel, you know, the Hebrew term is tova, 774 00:43:35,770 --> 00:43:39,890 S2: which means good news. Uh, the gospel is good news, 775 00:43:40,850 --> 00:43:44,290 S2: but it's also bad news. Uh, Chris, what do you 776 00:43:44,290 --> 00:43:45,450 S2: want to hear first? You want to hear the good 777 00:43:45,450 --> 00:43:46,450 S2: news or the bad news? 778 00:43:46,570 --> 00:43:48,050 S1: I think I want to hear the bad news first. 779 00:43:48,210 --> 00:43:52,610 S2: You must be Jewish like me somewhere in your heart. Well, um, 780 00:43:52,730 --> 00:43:54,330 S2: let me give you the good news first. The good 781 00:43:54,330 --> 00:43:57,090 S2: news is that God has given us a way to 782 00:43:57,130 --> 00:44:00,410 S2: be forgiven of our sins and to be restored to 783 00:44:00,450 --> 00:44:05,060 S2: an eternal, Intimate relationship with him. The bad news is 784 00:44:05,060 --> 00:44:06,580 S2: that we don't deserve it. The only thing that we 785 00:44:06,580 --> 00:44:11,180 S2: deserve from God is his wrath is an eternity separated 786 00:44:11,180 --> 00:44:13,980 S2: from him. We're cut off from him because we have 787 00:44:13,980 --> 00:44:17,460 S2: rebellious natures. There's a Jewish tradition that says that we 788 00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:21,540 S2: have two inclinations uh yetzer tov yetzer hara, the good 789 00:44:21,540 --> 00:44:24,819 S2: inclination and the bad inclination. And depending upon what you 790 00:44:24,820 --> 00:44:26,780 S2: do with your life and how much you study Torah. 791 00:44:26,780 --> 00:44:30,260 S2: ET cetera, et cetera, then you can be ruled by 792 00:44:30,260 --> 00:44:33,180 S2: the good inclination. Well, it's a nice story, but it's 793 00:44:33,180 --> 00:44:37,940 S2: not true. You know, if you have children, you know, 794 00:44:38,460 --> 00:44:41,100 S2: you don't have to teach children. You know, we didn't 795 00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:43,299 S2: have to learn as children how to lie. We didn't 796 00:44:43,300 --> 00:44:45,299 S2: have to learn how to steal. We didn't have to 797 00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:48,180 S2: learn how to be dishonest or fearful or jealous. That 798 00:44:48,180 --> 00:44:51,299 S2: was natural. Uh, we're cut off from God because of 799 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:55,020 S2: our sins, and we face an eternity separated. But he 800 00:44:55,020 --> 00:44:57,580 S2: promised to send us a Savior who would die as 801 00:44:57,580 --> 00:44:59,979 S2: the payment for our sins, rescue us from the power 802 00:44:59,980 --> 00:45:03,070 S2: that sin has over our daily lives. And that Messiah 803 00:45:03,230 --> 00:45:04,069 S2: is Jesus. 804 00:45:05,550 --> 00:45:07,549 S1: And because of his resurrection. 805 00:45:07,590 --> 00:45:09,989 S2: Because of his resurrection, we can be forgiven. You can't 806 00:45:09,989 --> 00:45:11,670 S2: go to a corpse and say, forgive me. 807 00:45:12,030 --> 00:45:12,550 S1: Yes. 808 00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:15,870 S2: But when we come to him and ask him to 809 00:45:15,870 --> 00:45:18,630 S2: forgive us, then our hearts hear the most wonderful words 810 00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:21,549 S2: that ever be spoken. He says, my son, my daughter, 811 00:45:21,710 --> 00:45:24,270 S2: your sins are forgiven and he gives us the gift 812 00:45:24,270 --> 00:45:27,990 S2: of eternal life, an everlasting relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac, 813 00:45:27,989 --> 00:45:28,630 S2: and Jacob. 814 00:45:29,870 --> 00:45:32,910 S1: I'm so glad. Avi, there's somebody on that corner who 815 00:45:32,910 --> 00:45:34,230 S1: gave you that piece of paper. 816 00:45:34,469 --> 00:45:35,110 S2: Me too. 817 00:45:35,710 --> 00:45:38,950 S1: Aren't you though? And thanks for being honest. And if 818 00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:42,390 S1: you're listening and you don't agree with Avi, my prayer 819 00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:44,350 S1: is that you would at least look at some of 820 00:45:44,350 --> 00:45:47,029 S1: the things that he says in the book. I mean, 821 00:45:47,070 --> 00:45:49,870 S1: you you probably have heard them before maybe, but maybe 822 00:45:49,870 --> 00:45:53,270 S1: you look at them with new eyes and open heart. 823 00:45:53,310 --> 00:45:55,950 S1: He's European director of Jews for Jesus. Jews don't need 824 00:45:55,950 --> 00:45:59,880 S1: Jesus and other misconceptions. Reflections of a Jewish believer. You 825 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,560 S1: can find it at Chris dot avi. Thanks a lot 826 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:04,480 S1: for being with us today. 827 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:05,320 S2: Thank you so much. 828 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,280 S1: One more time. The featured resource today is Jews Don't 829 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,200 S1: Need Jesus by our guest, Avi Snider. You can go 830 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:19,640 S1: to Chris fabry.org to find out more. Chris Fabri Livorno. Oh, 831 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,080 S1: one important conversation and I'm grateful for those who listen 832 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,960 S1: and are energized by these visits to the radio backyard fence. 833 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,960 S1: If you want to reach out and help us do 834 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,400 S1: what we do here, we'd be so grateful. Become a 835 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,200 S1: back fence friend or a back fence partner today. You 836 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,560 S1: can do that and a whole lot more at our website, 837 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:45,000 S1: Chris Fabry live.org or call us at 866953. Thanks for 838 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,000 S1: your support. Chris Fabry Live is a production of Moody Radio, 839 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,360 S1: a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.