1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,800 S1: I think today the light is going to come on. 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,160 S1: Today someone is going to take a step toward freedom 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,959 S1: because today you're going to hear somebody explain your life 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,160 S1: to you. Here's what my friend Kelly says happens. You 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,759 S1: have a repeating scenario in your life. It's most common 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,240 S1: with your relationships as a family member or friend. Somebody 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,560 S1: at work says something, does something, and it stirs you 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:39,680 S1: up inside, and togetherness turns into tension. Connectedness devolves into defensiveness. 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:44,240 S1: Communication collapses into conflict. You are stuck in a cycle, 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,640 S1: trapped by your triggers. Does that ever happen to you? 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,280 S1: Has it happened over and over and you want to 12 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: get off the cycle? If you can just tame those triggers, 13 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,320 S1: that's what you think. Well, there is help and hope 14 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,430 S1: straight ahead on Chris Fabry live program. From the heart 15 00:01:01,430 --> 00:01:03,990 S1: to the heart for the heart to Open Your Heart 16 00:01:03,990 --> 00:01:07,630 S1: today with Doctor Kelley Flanagan. Find out more about him 17 00:01:07,630 --> 00:01:11,470 S1: and our featured resource, Chris Borg. Thank you, friend, for 18 00:01:11,470 --> 00:01:14,270 S1: joining us today. Thanks to our teammates behind the scenes, 19 00:01:14,270 --> 00:01:18,110 S1: Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. Tricia is our producer. 20 00:01:18,150 --> 00:01:20,750 S1: Lisa is helping out with a stuck earring on a 21 00:01:20,750 --> 00:01:24,670 S1: sweater and Josh is helping out as well. He'll answer 22 00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:27,630 S1: your calls, you may wonder, and at some point I 23 00:01:27,630 --> 00:01:30,309 S1: hope you ask this question how am I hearing these 24 00:01:30,310 --> 00:01:33,390 S1: back fence conversations that are so encouraging to me? Well, 25 00:01:33,390 --> 00:01:35,750 S1: the answer is we're able to come to you each 26 00:01:35,750 --> 00:01:39,190 S1: day because of the generosity of some friends and partners 27 00:01:39,430 --> 00:01:42,270 S1: who get involved, who make a phone call, click through, 28 00:01:42,270 --> 00:01:44,310 S1: and they support us. And I want to invite you 29 00:01:44,310 --> 00:01:48,390 S1: to be in that number. Come marching in, call us eight, six, six, 30 00:01:48,430 --> 00:01:52,750 S1: 95 or go to Chris Fabry live. We have a 31 00:01:52,750 --> 00:01:56,190 S1: thank you each month for anybody, a friend or a partner. 32 00:01:56,870 --> 00:02:00,250 S1: And right now Aw. Thank you. Uh, I guess we 33 00:02:00,290 --> 00:02:05,370 S1: featured years ago who had a terminal diagnosis. Colleen Chow. 34 00:02:05,570 --> 00:02:08,770 S1: She has been a bright light here at the back 35 00:02:08,810 --> 00:02:11,890 S1: fence for several years, and God has given her more 36 00:02:11,889 --> 00:02:15,730 S1: days and a message of encouragement in her new book, 37 00:02:15,730 --> 00:02:18,730 S1: on our way Home. We talked about it last October. 38 00:02:18,810 --> 00:02:22,489 S1: I'm going to re-air that conversation this coming Friday. Let 39 00:02:22,490 --> 00:02:25,329 S1: me send you a copy. You will help us continue 40 00:02:25,330 --> 00:02:29,090 S1: these conversations and help other people as they listen and 41 00:02:29,090 --> 00:02:31,450 S1: help yourself as well. When you give a gift, go 42 00:02:31,450 --> 00:02:37,730 S1: to Chris Fabry. Chris. Org. See how to support us 43 00:02:37,730 --> 00:02:44,570 S1: right there or call that number (866) 953-2279. And thank you 44 00:02:44,570 --> 00:02:47,050 S1: for being a friend or partner. Thank you Deborah. Just 45 00:02:47,050 --> 00:02:50,730 S1: became a partner yesterday with us here. Go to Chris 46 00:02:50,770 --> 00:02:55,650 S1: Fabry live. Doctor Kelly Flanagan is an author, speaker, coach, 47 00:02:55,690 --> 00:03:00,720 S1: clinical psychologist, married to a clinical psychologist who's also named Kelly, 48 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,920 S1: who has. And he has two decades of experience in 49 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:08,840 S1: interpersonal relationships. He's written the books Lovable True Companions, the 50 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,720 S1: novel The Unhiding of Elijah Campbell, and his latest just released. 51 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,280 S1: It's our featured resource, and I told him before the program, 52 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,880 S1: I said, Kelly, this is really a great book because 53 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,200 S1: it is explaining, explaining my life to me and I 54 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,720 S1: think it might do the same for you, friend. It's 55 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:31,480 S1: titled The Road Less Triggered turning conflict into connection with 56 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:37,720 S1: a single choice. Go to your doctor. Flanagan. Welcome back 57 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,240 S1: to the program. How are you doing today? 58 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:41,680 S2: Good. It's so good to be here with you, Chris. 59 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,080 S1: You were with us last time, I think was the, uh, 60 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,320 S1: the writers conference thing that we did a couple of 61 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:47,680 S1: years ago. 62 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,640 S2: That's right. We did it in person. That's right. 63 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:50,840 S1: That was a lot of fun. 64 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:52,200 S2: That was a lot of fun. 65 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,070 S1: I can't tell you how many times I've felt this, 66 00:03:57,070 --> 00:03:59,070 S1: and rather than going right to the book, I'm going 67 00:03:59,070 --> 00:04:02,790 S1: right to my experience. I walked into, uh, my wife 68 00:04:02,790 --> 00:04:05,670 S1: was in the floor working on something in the bedroom, 69 00:04:05,830 --> 00:04:08,310 S1: and I walked in and we had this conversation, and 70 00:04:08,310 --> 00:04:10,630 S1: I cannot tell you what it was about. I don't 71 00:04:10,630 --> 00:04:13,950 S1: remember a thing about the conversation, but the way she 72 00:04:13,950 --> 00:04:19,270 S1: looked at me made when I said something, made me 73 00:04:19,310 --> 00:04:22,710 S1: feel there was this physical reaction inside of me, and 74 00:04:22,710 --> 00:04:26,110 S1: I started getting upset, and I, and I stepped. I 75 00:04:26,150 --> 00:04:30,550 S1: literally took a step back because I thought, wait a minute, 76 00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:33,630 S1: something is going on here, and I don't think it's 77 00:04:33,630 --> 00:04:37,870 S1: about her. I think what is going on. And it 78 00:04:37,870 --> 00:04:40,750 S1: was this physical thing and I traced it later, I 79 00:04:40,750 --> 00:04:43,510 S1: was able to trace it back to. That's the way 80 00:04:43,630 --> 00:04:47,870 S1: that I felt when a teacher would say something or 81 00:04:47,910 --> 00:04:52,710 S1: someone would deride me on the playground or something. It 82 00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:55,610 S1: was kind of the shame that you'd get my. My 83 00:04:55,650 --> 00:04:58,890 S1: mother would do. And my wife wasn't feeling this way 84 00:04:58,930 --> 00:05:02,890 S1: toward me. But that look triggered it, and it caused 85 00:05:02,930 --> 00:05:06,330 S1: it could have caused a huge argument at the time 86 00:05:06,370 --> 00:05:09,330 S1: had I not taken a step back. That's what you're 87 00:05:09,330 --> 00:05:10,489 S1: writing about, isn't it? 88 00:05:11,290 --> 00:05:14,810 S2: That's exactly what I'm writing about, Chris. What's really sort 89 00:05:14,810 --> 00:05:17,650 S2: of rare about that moment in what you did there 90 00:05:18,050 --> 00:05:20,650 S2: was that you took the the time to step back. 91 00:05:20,690 --> 00:05:24,450 S2: You took a moment to consider the possibility that what 92 00:05:24,450 --> 00:05:29,570 S2: you were thinking, feeling what you were tempted to do 93 00:05:29,610 --> 00:05:32,690 S2: in that moment wasn't really about her. It was about 94 00:05:32,690 --> 00:05:37,609 S2: an experience inside of you. And we very rarely take 95 00:05:37,610 --> 00:05:41,050 S2: the time to step back and consider that possibility. And 96 00:05:41,050 --> 00:05:43,690 S2: there's good reason for that. We we have a nervous 97 00:05:43,690 --> 00:05:48,730 S2: system that is designed to deal decisively with threats outside 98 00:05:48,730 --> 00:05:51,850 S2: of us and around us. And and so when we 99 00:05:51,850 --> 00:05:56,400 S2: get triggered like that in a situation, in a relationship, 100 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:01,560 S2: and our nervous system starts to activate. The gut reaction is, 101 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,440 S2: I need to deal with this thing in front of 102 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:08,159 S2: me that is causing my problem right now. And very 103 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,480 S2: few of us take the time to pivot and say, actually, 104 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,360 S2: maybe there's some there's more going on inside of me 105 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,960 S2: that could explain my reaction better than what's going on 106 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:17,839 S2: in front of me. 107 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,880 S1: So the way that you frame this whole thing is 108 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,480 S1: closed heart versus open heart. Explain that. 109 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:31,599 S2: Um, well, uh, I'll explain it through my own experience. Um, I, um, 110 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:37,920 S2: I went through a year. A season really, of my life. Uh, 111 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,120 S2: that sort of culminated in 2020. I mean, I wrote 112 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,839 S2: a book called lovable that published in 2017, which was about, uh, 113 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,000 S2: embracing our worthiness and learning to live from the truth 114 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,909 S2: of our worthiness so that we can show up authentically 115 00:06:51,910 --> 00:06:55,430 S2: in our relationships and connect and find belonging and and 116 00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:57,670 S2: what I discovered after publishing that book is that I 117 00:06:57,670 --> 00:07:00,549 S2: was I was able to live that out like 98% 118 00:07:00,550 --> 00:07:04,350 S2: of the time. Um, but about 2% of the time 119 00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:08,029 S2: something would happen and I would get triggered and I'd 120 00:07:08,070 --> 00:07:10,870 S2: sort of feel like I was back at square one, uh, 121 00:07:10,870 --> 00:07:15,310 S2: internally and spiritually and relationally and, uh, and that's sort 122 00:07:15,310 --> 00:07:19,830 S2: of like that culminated in the Covid year of 2020. I, uh, 123 00:07:20,670 --> 00:07:23,590 S2: started out the year pretty rough. I blew up my 124 00:07:23,590 --> 00:07:26,630 S2: business partnership with my best friend, blew up the best 125 00:07:26,630 --> 00:07:30,190 S2: friendship in the process. Um, kids were schooling from home. 126 00:07:30,510 --> 00:07:33,070 S2: They were becoming zombies, as I like to say. Like. 127 00:07:33,310 --> 00:07:35,590 S2: And I was getting triggered left and right by them. 128 00:07:35,590 --> 00:07:41,470 S2: And I was really struggling emotionally, relationally and spiritually. And, uh, 129 00:07:41,470 --> 00:07:43,630 S2: and that year sort of culminated for me, it was 130 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:47,270 S2: a June afternoon. My wife had convinced me to get 131 00:07:47,270 --> 00:07:49,310 S2: an above ground pool. Finally, she, you know, she leveraged 132 00:07:49,310 --> 00:07:52,180 S2: the the shutdown and said, hey, these places are all 133 00:07:52,180 --> 00:07:54,820 S2: shutting down. We need a pool. And and so we 134 00:07:54,860 --> 00:07:57,739 S2: got a pool and uh, and on a Sunday morning, 135 00:07:57,740 --> 00:07:59,820 S2: she went out to fill this new above ground pool. 136 00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:01,500 S2: She hung the hose over the side of the pool, 137 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:03,940 S2: and she put a rock there to anchor it there. 138 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:07,060 S2: And the rock wasn't heavy enough, and we didn't go 139 00:08:07,060 --> 00:08:11,420 S2: back and check for several hours. And. Yeah. And when 140 00:08:11,420 --> 00:08:13,780 S2: I went out in the afternoon, the pool was bone 141 00:08:13,780 --> 00:08:15,900 S2: dry and our backyard was a lake. And I got 142 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:19,180 S2: really triggered and I thought, you know, like, how do 143 00:08:19,180 --> 00:08:21,500 S2: I not set our relationship back again with how I'm 144 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:23,580 S2: about to react? So I decided to blow off steam 145 00:08:23,580 --> 00:08:25,780 S2: on a bike ride. And it turns out that's not 146 00:08:25,780 --> 00:08:29,300 S2: the wisest thing to do to cycle 35mph on asphalt 147 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:31,500 S2: when you're angry and not really paying attention. And I 148 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:34,699 S2: went over the handlebars and I broke my collarbone in 149 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:38,980 S2: two places and it never fully healed. They're called fibrous tissue, 150 00:08:39,020 --> 00:08:42,060 S2: nonunion fractures. And it just made for this really long, 151 00:08:42,059 --> 00:08:47,500 S2: painful recovery. So I got to New Year's Eve going into, uh, 2021. 152 00:08:47,500 --> 00:08:51,280 S2: And I was thinking about fitness resolutions for the new year. 153 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,480 S2: And while I was actually exploring the internet, you know, 154 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,840 S2: looking at keto versus paleo and all these things, um, 155 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,640 S2: I came across this quote, don't let anything in your 156 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,559 S2: life be important enough that you're willing to close your 157 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,480 S2: heart over it. And boy, in that moment, that quote 158 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,960 S2: hit me harder than the asphalt road. It was like, wow, 159 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,800 S2: I'm in this situation not because of the circumstances in 160 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,199 S2: my life, but because of how I'm reacting to them. 161 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,760 S2: And I need to start to take responsibility for that. 162 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,720 S2: And I think it's going to start with learning how 163 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,120 S2: to keep my heart open in these in these situations 164 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,199 S2: that trigger me. So I made a New Year's resolution 165 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,760 S2: going into 2021. That moment to moment, I will notice 166 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,680 S2: my heart closing and try to open it back up. And, uh, 167 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,840 S2: and you know, most New Year's resolutions are done by 168 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,400 S2: the third week of January, but this has really become 169 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,110 S2: my core spiritual practice over the last five years. It's 170 00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:52,510 S2: it's sort of my answer to Paul's, you know, exhortation 171 00:09:52,510 --> 00:09:55,550 S2: to pray without ceasing is that moment to moment. I 172 00:09:55,590 --> 00:09:57,550 S2: will notice my heart closing and try to open it 173 00:09:57,550 --> 00:09:59,830 S2: back up. That's my that's my unceasing prayer. 174 00:10:00,870 --> 00:10:04,670 S1: And you have to. And so seeing it so and 175 00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:08,150 S1: feeling it and then responding to it, you know, it 176 00:10:08,150 --> 00:10:10,230 S1: seems like I don't want that to happen. I don't 177 00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:12,670 S1: want this to happen. Oh it happened again. Oh I'm 178 00:10:13,309 --> 00:10:15,790 S1: a bad person. It's like, no, you don't have to 179 00:10:15,790 --> 00:10:19,830 S1: go there with that. You if you see it, that's progress. 180 00:10:20,030 --> 00:10:24,189 S1: And that's the spirit touching touching a nerve. Right. 181 00:10:24,910 --> 00:10:27,470 S2: Well, and it's one of the ways I'll frame this 182 00:10:27,470 --> 00:10:30,670 S2: to people. And I appreciate you saying it that way because, um, 183 00:10:30,710 --> 00:10:33,350 S2: I mean, I'm an Enneagram three, so my temptation is 184 00:10:33,350 --> 00:10:37,390 S2: to turn anything into a new competition. I'm going to win. Right? So, um, 185 00:10:37,390 --> 00:10:40,829 S2: you know. Okay, great. I'll never close my heart ever again. Well, 186 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:43,830 S2: I learned very quickly that's not possible. And one of 187 00:10:43,830 --> 00:10:46,460 S2: the things you learn along the way As you start 188 00:10:46,460 --> 00:10:50,300 S2: to bring attention to this, this heart closing inside of 189 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:53,300 S2: you is that when your heart closes, it's just telling 190 00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:56,100 S2: you that you you've you've got as much as you 191 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:59,780 S2: can handle for the moment. Um, that your system is 192 00:10:59,780 --> 00:11:03,540 S2: starting to feel overwhelmed by what is happening. Um, and 193 00:11:03,820 --> 00:11:06,940 S2: being hard on yourself or critical of yourself for that, 194 00:11:06,940 --> 00:11:09,780 S2: or shaming yourself for that is just more stress on 195 00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:12,660 S2: the system. Uh, and so actually, in that moment where 196 00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:14,699 S2: your heart starts to close, a little bit of gentleness 197 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:16,540 S2: and a little bit of grace goes a long way 198 00:11:16,540 --> 00:11:18,900 S2: to actually starting to undo the reaction. 199 00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:22,980 S1: Yes. So in a sense, then you're further along than 200 00:11:22,980 --> 00:11:25,540 S1: you think you are. When this happens. We're going to 201 00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:29,860 S1: unpack this. I love the title The Road Less Triggered. 202 00:11:30,140 --> 00:11:32,700 S1: Doctor Kelly Flanagan is with us today at the radio 203 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:40,780 S1: backyard fence. Here's our number (877) 548-3675. Marital conflict feels less 204 00:11:40,780 --> 00:11:45,360 S1: like D-Day and more like Groundhog Day. Is that your experience? 205 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,120 S1: We're going to talk about that and a whole lot more. 206 00:11:47,160 --> 00:12:03,280 S1: Go to the website Chris Paul Chris Fabry live. At 207 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,400 S1: Kelley Flanagan has written one of those books that I 208 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,240 S1: think it's going to turn the light on. It has 209 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,200 S1: for me, and I've just been getting into it. It 210 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,720 S1: just released yesterday. It's called The Road Less Triggered, turning 211 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,800 S1: conflict into connection with a single choice. And this can 212 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,400 S1: happen a lot of times it happens in marriage. Sometimes 213 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,200 S1: it can happen with friendships, with church, with, you know, 214 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,600 S1: school relationships you have at work where. But it's it's 215 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,679 S1: happened to me most often with the deeper relationships my 216 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,400 S1: my wife and my kids, you know, family and then siblings, parents, 217 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,990 S1: that kind of thing. And something that you said just 218 00:12:44,030 --> 00:12:45,790 S1: a minute as we were going to the break made 219 00:12:45,790 --> 00:12:50,830 S1: me think of that. If if your God is, I 220 00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:53,550 S1: want things to go smoothly and I don't want any 221 00:12:53,550 --> 00:12:58,750 S1: pain in my life, then you'll be committed to avoiding 222 00:12:59,070 --> 00:13:03,070 S1: that pain. Uh, and Lewis wrote about that in the 223 00:13:03,070 --> 00:13:06,150 S1: four loves to love it alls to be vulnerable. Love. 224 00:13:06,150 --> 00:13:08,670 S1: Anything in your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. 225 00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:10,829 S1: If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, 226 00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:13,630 S1: you must give it to no one, not even an animal. 227 00:13:13,630 --> 00:13:16,750 S1: Wrap it carefully around with hobbies and little luxuries. Avoid 228 00:13:16,750 --> 00:13:20,030 S1: all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or 229 00:13:20,030 --> 00:13:25,750 S1: coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, 230 00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:28,670 S1: it will change. It will not be broken. It will 231 00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:35,270 S1: become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable. 232 00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:38,710 S1: So he's saying basically the same thing that you're saying 233 00:13:38,990 --> 00:13:43,380 S1: you're closing your heart will make you live a certain way, 234 00:13:43,380 --> 00:13:45,620 S1: and it might keep you from some of the pain. 235 00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:51,260 S1: But it won't get. It won't bring life to you. Right? 236 00:13:52,059 --> 00:13:57,540 S2: That's right. You know, one of the first reactions I 237 00:13:57,580 --> 00:13:59,700 S2: noticed that when I, that I run into when we 238 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:03,060 S2: talk about open heartedness, is the immediate assumption that open 239 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:07,219 S2: heartedness is weakness. Um, you know, well, gosh, I'll just 240 00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:09,300 S2: have to let people do whatever they want to me 241 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,260 S2: or I won't be able to speak up. Um, over 242 00:14:12,260 --> 00:14:14,980 S2: the course of this journey, what I've learned is that 243 00:14:14,980 --> 00:14:18,780 S2: an open heart doesn't make you weaker. It makes you wiser. Um, 244 00:14:18,820 --> 00:14:23,300 S2: so there's some truth in in the the the fear 245 00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:26,300 S2: that it will make us weaker. Because what it means 246 00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:28,940 S2: is that all of those ways we've been hardening our hearts, 247 00:14:29,140 --> 00:14:32,340 S2: all those self protections we've been building around ourselves, all 248 00:14:32,380 --> 00:14:35,660 S2: of those, uh, sort of layers and walls we've been 249 00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:38,060 S2: building up to keep us safe, which we are like, 250 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:41,400 S2: as Lewis points out, shrinking inside of and withering away 251 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,320 S2: inside of and dying inside of. Those will have to 252 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,840 S2: come down to some extent. And the part of us 253 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,600 S2: that wants to protect that feels like weakness. Um, but 254 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,520 S2: what we discover is that there's a much greater strength, 255 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,920 S2: a much greater power, a bigger love that can come 256 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,640 S2: through an open heart. Um, there's a capacity for connection. 257 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:09,520 S2: There's a capacity for, uh, communication and closeness. Uh, that 258 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,720 S2: is much more rewarding than anything that we experience inside 259 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,240 S2: of those self protections. 260 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,240 S1: Um, talk about that D-Day, Groundhog Day. It's because the 261 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,280 S1: Groundhog Day is you're waking up and the same thing 262 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,920 S1: is coming at you time and time and time again. 263 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,320 S1: There are couples listening right now or spouse listening. It's 264 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,520 S1: like we have the same argument. It's just in different places. 265 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,440 S2: That's right. Yeah. When I work with couples, I used to, uh, 266 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,070 S2: essentially try to, uh, put out every fire that they 267 00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:44,030 S2: would bring into an appointment. Uh, but I eventually realized that, 268 00:15:44,070 --> 00:15:46,350 S2: you know, all of those fires were sort of burning 269 00:15:46,350 --> 00:15:49,270 S2: from the very same coals, that there was sort of 270 00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:52,710 S2: a something at the heart of every conversation that was 271 00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:55,670 S2: underpinning all of them. And so these days, what I 272 00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:58,110 S2: do is I actually try to isolate, like, what is 273 00:15:58,110 --> 00:16:02,990 S2: that one dynamic that is present in each of these 274 00:16:02,990 --> 00:16:06,350 S2: arguments that look, that look different. And so it really 275 00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:10,230 S2: helps to simplify the solution to, to these things to 276 00:16:10,270 --> 00:16:13,470 S2: to recognize that. Nope. This is just the same conversation, 277 00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:15,870 S2: but it's about who's going to pick up Johnny from soccer. 278 00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:18,550 S2: And this is the same conversation, but it's about, you know, 279 00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:20,950 S2: why Monday Night Football doesn't count as a date night 280 00:16:20,990 --> 00:16:24,110 S2: and so on. And so let's have the one conversation 281 00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:27,350 S2: and have it really well. Um, and that will be 282 00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:28,830 S2: the way out of this pattern. 283 00:16:29,390 --> 00:16:32,710 S1: Can you walk me through a real life couple, change 284 00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:34,790 S1: their names? You've done that in the book. But to 285 00:16:34,990 --> 00:16:39,660 S1: paint a scenario where you? You pinpoint this. 286 00:16:40,380 --> 00:16:42,860 S2: Oh, sure. I'll. How about a real life couple named 287 00:16:42,860 --> 00:16:48,500 S2: Kelly and Kelly? Does that sound okay? That's good. That'll work. Yeah. Um, so, uh, 288 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:52,980 S2: my wife is also Doctor Kelly, and, uh, you know, again, 289 00:16:52,980 --> 00:16:56,580 S2: I'm an Enneagram three. I'm a high achiever. I love 290 00:16:56,580 --> 00:16:58,620 S2: my work. I love what I do. I can get 291 00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:01,900 S2: pretty distracted by it at times. Um, and she's told 292 00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:03,860 S2: me in no uncertain terms over the years, like, it 293 00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:06,460 S2: doesn't feel great when you're orbiting around everything else and 294 00:17:06,460 --> 00:17:12,419 S2: not us. And, uh, so I have made some significant 295 00:17:12,420 --> 00:17:16,660 S2: changes to to rectify that. And I'll never forget there 296 00:17:16,660 --> 00:17:21,620 S2: was this night, um, it was maybe early summer several 297 00:17:21,619 --> 00:17:25,379 S2: years ago, and my last client of the day canceled, 298 00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:27,900 S2: and I was tempted to book another client in their place. 299 00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:30,460 S2: And I thought, you know what? No, I'm gonna. I'm 300 00:17:30,460 --> 00:17:32,379 S2: gonna do what I want, what I want to do 301 00:17:32,380 --> 00:17:34,219 S2: for my family and what my wife's been asking me 302 00:17:34,220 --> 00:17:37,080 S2: to do. I'm going to prioritize them. So I. called 303 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,600 S2: her up and I said, hey, I know you're got 304 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,040 S2: a busy afternoon. Why don't I take Quinn to soccer 305 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,560 S2: for you? And then when she got home from work, 306 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:45,960 S2: I said, hey, what if we just sat on the 307 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,520 S2: back deck and spent some time connecting? And then it 308 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,359 S2: was getting to our dinner time and I said, you know, 309 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,000 S2: you were going to go pick up Quinn from soccer, 310 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,160 S2: but I'll go get him so you can start dinner. And, and, uh, 311 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,679 S2: and I was so proud of myself and how I 312 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,400 S2: was showing up as a husband and a father. Right. 313 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,920 S2: And so I get Quinn home, and I sit down 314 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,439 S2: at the kitchen island where she's boiling some beans for dinner, and. 315 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,719 S2: And this was actually just prior to the launching of 316 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,280 S2: the hiding of Elijah Campbell. And I said to her, hey, hey, 317 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,440 S2: I got a question about the book launch I'd love 318 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,720 S2: to get your take on. And she looks up at me, 319 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,639 S2: and this is you reminded me of this when you 320 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,119 S2: talked about walking in and your wife shot you a look. 321 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,440 S2: My wife looks up at me and she says, do 322 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:23,880 S2: you ever quit working? 323 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:24,760 S1: Ooh. 324 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,879 S2: And like, boom. Right? Like, you can feel I'm. I'm 325 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,520 S2: showing up at this moment. So proud of how I 326 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,030 S2: have delivered for the family. And instead I get the 327 00:18:36,030 --> 00:18:40,670 S2: same old reaction. Um, and so there is there's a 328 00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:44,270 S2: single conversation happening underneath all of these moments for my 329 00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:48,990 S2: wife and I. Um, her question is, are you going 330 00:18:48,990 --> 00:18:52,510 S2: to leave me feeling alone? Am I going to end 331 00:18:52,510 --> 00:18:55,830 S2: up feeling abandoned in this relationship, like I felt in 332 00:18:55,869 --> 00:18:59,190 S2: important relationships in my past? And my question is, are 333 00:18:59,190 --> 00:19:01,709 S2: you going to approve of me? Are you going to 334 00:19:01,710 --> 00:19:04,030 S2: be happy with me? Um. Or am I going to 335 00:19:04,030 --> 00:19:06,629 S2: feel ashamed in this relationship, as I have in so 336 00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:10,190 S2: many relationships in the past? And that singular dynamic. Are 337 00:19:10,190 --> 00:19:12,750 S2: you going to abandon me? Are you going to shame me? 338 00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:16,670 S2: Is just. It's it's built into almost every conversation that 339 00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:18,670 S2: we have. And, you know, just the other night, as 340 00:19:18,670 --> 00:19:21,030 S2: a matter of fact, now, years later. Right. We both 341 00:19:21,030 --> 00:19:25,030 S2: understand this dynamic better now boast about it. We both have. 342 00:19:25,070 --> 00:19:27,230 S1: PhDs. I mean, for crying out loud. 343 00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:30,270 S2: And we're finally figuring it out 26 years into marriage. 344 00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:32,350 S2: You know, like, they don't teach you this stuff in 345 00:19:32,350 --> 00:19:35,459 S2: graduate school. But we're at dinner the other night, and 346 00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:39,100 S2: because we've surfaced this dynamic in our relationships, this sort 347 00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:42,500 S2: of core trigger, um, she said something about work. And 348 00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:44,700 S2: I asked a question that was sort of a little 349 00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:47,220 S2: bit brainless, and she looks at me and she goes, 350 00:19:47,220 --> 00:19:50,540 S2: do you even understand anything about what I do at 351 00:19:50,540 --> 00:19:54,740 S2: the office? And I looked at her, and, I mean, 352 00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:56,780 S2: I could feel that like, oh, I haven't I'm not 353 00:19:56,780 --> 00:19:59,619 S2: a good enough husband, right? And I could feel myself 354 00:19:59,619 --> 00:20:03,859 S2: start to contract back inside of that disappointment and shame 355 00:20:03,859 --> 00:20:08,460 S2: and frustration and but instead, instead of personalizing it, instead 356 00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:11,100 S2: of getting triggered in my heart closing, I opened up 357 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:13,619 S2: my heart and I looked at her and I smiled. 358 00:20:13,619 --> 00:20:17,540 S2: And I go, 26 years and the needle never moves on. 359 00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:20,940 S2: This does it. There's no I'm never going to convince 360 00:20:20,940 --> 00:20:23,500 S2: you that I am here for you and understand. And 361 00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:26,700 S2: she started laughing. She goes, no, I don't think you are. 362 00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:29,859 S2: And so like, it was a way that I didn't personalize, um, 363 00:20:29,859 --> 00:20:33,000 S2: her feeling of abandonment in the moment. and she was 364 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,920 S2: able to take ownership of it in the moment. And 365 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,879 S2: all of a sudden like, you know, Groundhog Day didn't happen. 366 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,440 S2: All of a sudden we're back to playing cards with 367 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,560 S2: our daughter. Um, and that's what I'm so excited about 368 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,640 S2: with this book, is the lost moments reclaimed when we 369 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,400 S2: don't go down the path of rupture and repair and 370 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,800 S2: have to spend the next week or month or six 371 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,160 S2: months trying to repair the thing that just happened. We 372 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,640 S2: got our whole night back. We got our whole week back, really. 373 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,040 S1: And and my my penchant here is okay, tell me 374 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,840 S1: the steps. Give me the tips and tricks to do that. 375 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,760 S1: You know, it's like. But I don't want to jump 376 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,480 S1: to that because I want to tell the person who's listening, 377 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,359 S1: who is, uh, who said, you know, that's exactly what 378 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,640 S1: happens with my wife and me or my husband and 379 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,960 S1: me or my kids in me or my parents. You know, 380 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,200 S1: I get back in that same thing. It's so easy 381 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,160 S1: as an adult child to feel the same way when 382 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,520 S1: you go home, you know, and for those things to replay. 383 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,200 S1: But the hope that I want to give somebody today 384 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:34,350 S1: is these folks have studied this for 26 years, and they're. 385 00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:38,830 S1: It's okay. You if you recognize this, if you feel 386 00:21:38,830 --> 00:21:42,710 S1: this going on inside of you, you're making progress. There 387 00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:47,190 S1: is hope for you. Um, and so and I and 388 00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:49,830 S1: I think that there is a, there is a sense 389 00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:53,670 S1: of hopelessness because we're still having the and and if 390 00:21:53,710 --> 00:21:57,070 S1: you believe that marriage is about always not having any 391 00:21:57,070 --> 00:22:00,270 S1: kind of conflict and there not being any pain or 392 00:22:00,550 --> 00:22:04,430 S1: there's there's nothing no friction in here, then you're going 393 00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:07,750 S1: to say at some point you're going to say, forget this. 394 00:22:07,790 --> 00:22:10,590 S1: It's not making me happy. She's not or he's not. 395 00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:13,629 S1: I'm going to find somebody who will. And the dirty 396 00:22:13,670 --> 00:22:16,710 S1: secret about that is you find somebody else and it's 397 00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:19,270 S1: going to happen. It's going to be Groundhog Day. It's 398 00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:22,550 S1: going to happen again. Yeah, because it's in here, isn't it? 399 00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:25,229 S2: Yes. Yeah. There's a reason, I think the, the divorce 400 00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:27,430 S2: rate for second marriages is actually quite a lot higher 401 00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:31,620 S2: than for first marriages. Um, because, uh, you repeat the 402 00:22:31,619 --> 00:22:34,820 S2: same pattern in your next relationship, but you're less slow 403 00:22:34,820 --> 00:22:36,459 S2: to pull the trigger on divorce. You're like, oh, this 404 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:39,500 S2: isn't working either. And so you get divorced more quickly. Um, 405 00:22:39,859 --> 00:22:40,459 S2: and so let. 406 00:22:40,460 --> 00:22:42,540 S1: Me ask you this. When you're talking with when you're 407 00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:44,820 S1: talking with couples who are sitting in front of you 408 00:22:44,820 --> 00:22:48,940 S1: or you're doing a zoom thing, zombies. I like that idea. Um, 409 00:22:49,020 --> 00:22:52,540 S1: when you're talking with couples, are men better at this? 410 00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:56,300 S1: Maybe I'm a three. Two. Are men better at this, 411 00:22:56,300 --> 00:23:01,179 S1: or women better at recognizing there's something going on physically 412 00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:03,100 S1: inside of me when this happens? 413 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:09,260 S2: Oh, that's a really good question. Um, I don't think 414 00:23:10,260 --> 00:23:14,100 S2: either men or women are particularly good at at tuning 415 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:18,420 S2: into their bodily signals. We're just not trained to do it. Um, and, 416 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:21,179 S2: and this is where I think like this levels the 417 00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:22,899 S2: playing field a little bit because I think there is 418 00:23:22,940 --> 00:23:25,419 S2: the conception, you know, that that women tend to be 419 00:23:25,420 --> 00:23:28,890 S2: better communicators and men are worse Worst communicators. And I'll 420 00:23:28,890 --> 00:23:34,370 S2: tell you why that that, uh, misconception exists. It exists 421 00:23:34,369 --> 00:23:40,130 S2: because the number one most common communication pattern in relationships 422 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:44,090 S2: is called the demand withdraw communication pattern. Uh, in the 423 00:23:44,090 --> 00:23:47,130 S2: demand withdraw communication pattern, one person tends to demand more 424 00:23:47,130 --> 00:23:51,450 S2: communication than the other person withdraws. And typically that breaks 425 00:23:51,450 --> 00:23:55,050 S2: down along gender lines. Not always, but typically women are 426 00:23:55,050 --> 00:23:58,090 S2: more in the role of wanting to communicate more, and 427 00:23:58,090 --> 00:24:01,210 S2: men are more in the role of withdrawing. Uh, and 428 00:24:01,210 --> 00:24:04,609 S2: so it looks in that moment, like women are better communicators. 429 00:24:04,609 --> 00:24:08,129 S2: They're seeking discussion. Right. But what's really happening underneath the 430 00:24:08,130 --> 00:24:10,930 S2: hood of this moment? And I get excited talking about 431 00:24:10,930 --> 00:24:14,530 S2: lifting the hood on this, is that both partners are 432 00:24:14,530 --> 00:24:17,330 S2: doing exactly the same thing. They're trying to calm their 433 00:24:17,330 --> 00:24:20,850 S2: nervous system down. Uh, there was an incredible series of 434 00:24:20,850 --> 00:24:23,970 S2: studies in the 1980s that showed that right before Demanders 435 00:24:23,970 --> 00:24:27,350 S2: started to demand and right before withdraws started to withdraw 436 00:24:27,869 --> 00:24:32,630 S2: their their biological signals started to spike, their heart rate increased, 437 00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:36,149 S2: they started sweating, their palms, cortisol went up. Everything went up. 438 00:24:36,270 --> 00:24:39,790 S2: And so what you actually see is that demanders are 439 00:24:39,790 --> 00:24:43,750 S2: trying to calm their nervous system by getting communication and withdraws, 440 00:24:43,790 --> 00:24:46,510 S2: are trying to calm their nervous system by removing themselves 441 00:24:46,510 --> 00:24:48,990 S2: from it, but they're both trying to do the same thing. 442 00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:51,629 S2: And so what men and women both need to start 443 00:24:51,630 --> 00:24:54,830 S2: to do is to tune into those early warning signs 444 00:24:54,830 --> 00:24:57,710 S2: that their nervous systems are starting to activate, and they're 445 00:24:57,710 --> 00:25:01,030 S2: going to to fall into their part of the pattern 446 00:25:01,070 --> 00:25:04,950 S2: of trying to get themselves feeling calm inside. And hopefully 447 00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:08,149 S2: with this, with this, uh, this idea starts to do 448 00:25:08,150 --> 00:25:11,870 S2: is it starts to empower people to recognize that, oh, wow, 449 00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:15,590 S2: I can break the pattern by noticing that I'm getting 450 00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:19,110 S2: aroused and starting to just bring awareness to that moment 451 00:25:19,109 --> 00:25:20,710 S2: so that I have more of a choice about what 452 00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:21,189 S2: I do. 453 00:25:21,390 --> 00:25:23,790 S1: You have a choice. That's it. And here's one of 454 00:25:23,790 --> 00:25:25,780 S1: the quotes from the book, and I was. Give this 455 00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:27,900 S1: to your friend as you're listening today and you're nodding 456 00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:31,580 S1: your head. Kelly says, don't pay attention to what what's 457 00:25:31,580 --> 00:25:36,500 S1: happening around you. Pay attention to what's tightening within you. 458 00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:41,220 S1: That's from the road. Less triggered. Turning conflict into connection 459 00:25:41,420 --> 00:25:47,900 S1: with a single choice. It would take your calls. (877) 548-3675. 460 00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:50,580 S1: Is this touching a nerve in your life? There's more. 461 00:25:50,580 --> 00:26:05,860 S1: Straight ahead. The next time Doctor Kelly Flanagan is with 462 00:26:05,859 --> 00:26:07,939 S1: us here at the back fence, I'm going to be 463 00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:12,620 S1: saying award winning author Doctor Kelly Flanagan. Award winning. Meaning 464 00:26:12,619 --> 00:26:15,780 S1: this book that he's written, if it doesn't win an award, well, 465 00:26:15,780 --> 00:26:18,540 S1: it runs the the crisp. Avery. Well, I've, uh, I'm 466 00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:21,780 S1: explaining your life to you, Chris award. It's called the 467 00:26:21,780 --> 00:26:26,770 S1: road less triggered. Turning conflict into connection with a single choice. 468 00:26:27,530 --> 00:26:30,649 S1: And my guess is there's somebody listening and you're feeling 469 00:26:30,650 --> 00:26:33,690 S1: the same way that I'm feeling. It's like, yeah, you're right. 470 00:26:34,090 --> 00:26:37,610 S1: This argument that we have had in marriage, or whatever 471 00:26:37,609 --> 00:26:40,090 S1: the relationship is, is the same one that we had 472 00:26:40,090 --> 00:26:41,770 S1: for a long time. I don't know how to get 473 00:26:41,810 --> 00:26:47,170 S1: off this cycle. And, uh, the another, uh, quote here, 474 00:26:47,170 --> 00:26:51,690 S1: your communication toolbox is your heart, and you choose to 475 00:26:51,730 --> 00:26:55,490 S1: open or close it. So you've given us agency here. 476 00:26:55,490 --> 00:26:59,330 S1: You do not have to stay in that cycle that 477 00:26:59,330 --> 00:27:03,050 S1: is spinning out of control. You can open your heart 478 00:27:03,050 --> 00:27:05,210 S1: to the other person and is is the way to 479 00:27:05,210 --> 00:27:08,490 S1: do that. Then another place in the book you say 480 00:27:08,930 --> 00:27:13,370 S1: become curious simply like when you're when your wife said 481 00:27:13,369 --> 00:27:15,490 S1: that to you, do you ever think about anything other 482 00:27:15,490 --> 00:27:20,250 S1: than work or whatever she said, right, you you became curious. 483 00:27:20,410 --> 00:27:24,149 S1: You kind of pushed back with humor to her. So 484 00:27:24,190 --> 00:27:26,950 S1: is that part of the the answer to this? 485 00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:31,270 S2: It's a great question. So in the in the very 486 00:27:31,270 --> 00:27:35,230 S2: first situation where she said that, um, I actually said 487 00:27:35,230 --> 00:27:38,870 S2: to her, uh, you know what? That was really triggering. 488 00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:40,669 S2: I just felt my heart closed. I'm gonna go the 489 00:27:40,670 --> 00:27:43,190 S2: other room. I'm gonna take a couple deep breaths so 490 00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:44,989 S2: that I can come back here and, you know, for 491 00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:47,310 S2: dinner and and show up the way that you deserve 492 00:27:47,310 --> 00:27:49,750 S2: for me to show up. Um. I thought I'd be back. 493 00:27:49,790 --> 00:27:51,710 S2: You know, by the time the green beans were done 494 00:27:51,710 --> 00:27:54,350 S2: boiling and it took me two days. Chris. It took 495 00:27:54,350 --> 00:27:58,310 S2: me two days to regulate my nervous system. Every time 496 00:27:58,310 --> 00:28:00,389 S2: I'd start thinking about the comment again, it was like 497 00:28:00,390 --> 00:28:02,909 S2: I was getting triggered all over again, and my nervous 498 00:28:02,910 --> 00:28:05,869 S2: system would activate the difference between that. And just a 499 00:28:05,869 --> 00:28:08,550 S2: couple nights ago, when we were playing cards with my daughter, 500 00:28:08,710 --> 00:28:11,750 S2: is that I stayed calm. And so I was able 501 00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:15,590 S2: to be present and curious. You know, you can't force 502 00:28:15,630 --> 00:28:18,790 S2: yourself into curiosity when your nervous system is triggered because 503 00:28:18,790 --> 00:28:21,460 S2: your nervous system is telling you that you're in mortal danger, 504 00:28:21,820 --> 00:28:23,860 S2: and so you're not going to be able to bring 505 00:28:23,859 --> 00:28:28,100 S2: on your higher mind, which has the capacity for curiosity. 506 00:28:28,140 --> 00:28:30,179 S2: If your lower mind is telling you you're about to 507 00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:33,740 S2: be devoured, like you're fighting a losing battle there. So 508 00:28:33,940 --> 00:28:35,980 S2: the first thing we always have to do is to 509 00:28:36,020 --> 00:28:38,500 S2: get our body calm, and then we'll be able to 510 00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:40,700 S2: bring our higher mind back online, and we'll be able 511 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:42,820 S2: to get curious about what else is going on here 512 00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:43,300 S2: in this moment. 513 00:28:43,340 --> 00:28:45,620 S1: But you could beat yourself up for it taking two 514 00:28:45,620 --> 00:28:47,580 S1: days to get calm couldn't you. 515 00:28:47,620 --> 00:28:53,020 S2: Mhm. I, I could. Um, and I have at times uh, 516 00:28:53,180 --> 00:28:56,100 S2: you know I was very careful during that period of 517 00:28:56,100 --> 00:29:00,020 S2: time because you know, she's seen me withdraw before and uh, and, 518 00:29:00,060 --> 00:29:02,860 S2: and you know, it's sort of like my punishment to her. 519 00:29:02,860 --> 00:29:04,580 S2: I'm just going to withdraw and not talk to you. 520 00:29:04,580 --> 00:29:06,700 S2: So I was very careful during those two days to 521 00:29:06,740 --> 00:29:09,020 S2: be like, hey, I'm not trying to punish you. I 522 00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:11,580 S2: don't want to be withdrawn. I'm trying to get myself 523 00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:15,420 S2: sorted out so I can can reengage in a constructive way. Uh, 524 00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:18,700 S2: and a lot of that time is spent, um, to 525 00:29:18,740 --> 00:29:22,970 S2: first and foremost, being gentle with yourself. Right. Having compassion 526 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:26,290 S2: for yourself is where compassion for others begins. Um, and 527 00:29:26,290 --> 00:29:30,090 S2: so to, uh, to to be kind to yourself, to 528 00:29:30,130 --> 00:29:33,290 S2: recognize that God created your heart so it can close 529 00:29:33,450 --> 00:29:35,970 S2: so that when you have more than you can handle, 530 00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:38,890 S2: you have a little bit of protection. Uh, and so 531 00:29:38,890 --> 00:29:41,330 S2: in that moment, just to shift a little bit and go, huh? 532 00:29:41,810 --> 00:29:44,730 S2: This was more interesting. All she did was say, do 533 00:29:44,730 --> 00:29:48,050 S2: you ever quit working? And I had more pain than 534 00:29:48,050 --> 00:29:50,930 S2: I could handle in that moment, so much so that 535 00:29:50,930 --> 00:29:53,370 S2: my whole nervous system acted like I was about to 536 00:29:53,410 --> 00:29:56,570 S2: be devoured by a tiger on the Serengeti. Like, Holy cow. 537 00:29:56,850 --> 00:29:57,530 S1: Two days. 538 00:29:57,770 --> 00:30:00,770 S2: Two days worth. Exactly like I ran from that tiger 539 00:30:00,770 --> 00:30:04,490 S2: for two days until I realized it wasn't there. Um, 540 00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:06,970 S2: and so just to recognize, like. Yeah, be be kind 541 00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:09,730 S2: to yourself. There's a if you are triggered and your 542 00:30:09,730 --> 00:30:12,930 S2: nervous system is activated, a part of you thinks you 543 00:30:12,930 --> 00:30:14,890 S2: are in mortal danger. That's a lot to deal with 544 00:30:14,930 --> 00:30:17,050 S2: in the moment. So give yourself the grace and the 545 00:30:17,050 --> 00:30:20,390 S2: space to to calm down, get regulated. And this is 546 00:30:20,390 --> 00:30:23,590 S2: something we we sort of a drum we beat several 547 00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:26,430 S2: times in the book which is regulate before you relate, 548 00:30:26,430 --> 00:30:29,590 S2: get calm before you connect. Uh, no. No one in 549 00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:32,990 S2: the history of humankind has ever tried to connect before. 550 00:30:32,990 --> 00:30:35,790 S2: They got calm and it turned out better. Um, so 551 00:30:35,790 --> 00:30:38,910 S2: really give yourself that space to to get regulated and 552 00:30:38,910 --> 00:30:39,870 S2: be good to yourself. 553 00:30:40,270 --> 00:30:44,470 S1: The road less triggered is our featured resource. Doctor Kelly 554 00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:48,310 S1: Flanagan is with us. Bran is on the line in Ohio. Hi, Bran. 555 00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:49,110 S1: Go right ahead. 556 00:30:50,550 --> 00:30:54,910 S3: Hello. Yes, we have, um, done a lot of work 557 00:30:54,910 --> 00:30:59,070 S3: in communication, but what we're dealing with now is my 558 00:30:59,070 --> 00:31:02,430 S3: husband knows my triggers. I know his triggers. Um, we 559 00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:04,830 S3: give each other space and time, and we come back 560 00:31:04,830 --> 00:31:08,830 S3: and connect when we're ready. However, he's not holding me 561 00:31:08,830 --> 00:31:13,190 S3: accountable as his spouse in some areas because of all 562 00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:16,430 S3: of the work we've done. He knows that's a trigger area. 563 00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:19,940 S3: And so then he doesn't want to proceed in that way. 564 00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:21,540 S3: So then he doesn't say anything. 565 00:31:22,740 --> 00:31:25,940 S1: And he's doing that to avoid the conflict then? 566 00:31:27,140 --> 00:31:31,060 S3: Yeah, well, we've discussed it, and he just doesn't know 567 00:31:31,060 --> 00:31:34,620 S3: that it's necessary to talk about. Or he knows that's 568 00:31:34,620 --> 00:31:37,580 S3: going to be a trigger area because let's just say 569 00:31:37,740 --> 00:31:41,260 S3: to give you a specific it's about, um, buying I'm 570 00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:43,900 S3: buying more than I should buy on something. And I 571 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:46,860 S3: expect him as my partner to say, hey, honey, you know, 572 00:31:46,940 --> 00:31:50,780 S3: that's not budgeted this month or there's there's a question 573 00:31:50,780 --> 00:31:53,220 S3: there that I need asked. And I've told we've expressed 574 00:31:53,220 --> 00:31:55,660 S3: this now that I have this need for him to 575 00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:59,660 S3: hold me accountable. And I can see in his face 576 00:31:59,660 --> 00:32:03,660 S3: he's like, yeah, but that's also a trigger area. So 577 00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:06,180 S3: I just wondered if you've had any experience with that. 578 00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:10,300 S3: When you've you recognize these areas, you recognize the triggers, 579 00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:14,300 S3: but then it stops you from potentially saying something you 580 00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:15,100 S3: need to say. 581 00:32:16,410 --> 00:32:20,610 S2: It's a fantastic question. Um, one of the things that I, 582 00:32:20,650 --> 00:32:23,010 S2: that that I'll often say is that a heart can 583 00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:27,610 S2: close violently or silently. Um, and I think that's what 584 00:32:27,610 --> 00:32:29,330 S2: you're sort of picking up on there a little bit 585 00:32:29,330 --> 00:32:32,130 S2: with your husband is that his heart is is still closing, 586 00:32:32,130 --> 00:32:38,170 S2: but it's closing silently. He's he's bypassing the potentially tense moment, 587 00:32:38,170 --> 00:32:41,450 S2: which is just another form of closing to the tension. Right. 588 00:32:41,490 --> 00:32:44,410 S2: And by the way, I get this. Like, I, uh, 589 00:32:44,410 --> 00:32:48,810 S2: even since 2021, I probably spent a year, uh, doing 590 00:32:48,810 --> 00:32:51,610 S2: that and sort of, you know, pat myself on the 591 00:32:51,610 --> 00:32:54,410 S2: back thinking that I was quite spiritually evolved and I 592 00:32:54,450 --> 00:32:57,370 S2: had figured out how to bypass conflict. And my wife 593 00:32:57,370 --> 00:32:59,370 S2: kept calling me out on it over and over again. 594 00:32:59,370 --> 00:33:03,210 S2: And she would say that, but that's not relationship. Um, 595 00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:05,729 S2: you have to be willing to enter in to the 596 00:33:05,730 --> 00:33:08,130 S2: potential tension and keep your heart open in the midst 597 00:33:08,130 --> 00:33:12,410 S2: of that. And I'll never forget, I was on a plane, uh, 598 00:33:12,410 --> 00:33:14,030 S2: and I was listening to a talk by a by 599 00:33:14,030 --> 00:33:18,350 S2: Richard Rohr. And, uh, he said, one of the most 600 00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:21,230 S2: powerful quotes I've ever heard, the opposite of control is 601 00:33:21,230 --> 00:33:26,350 S2: not letting go. It's participation. And I heard that quote, 602 00:33:26,350 --> 00:33:28,670 S2: and I thought, my wife's been right all along. I've 603 00:33:28,670 --> 00:33:31,910 S2: been letting go of these moments, but she's asking me 604 00:33:31,910 --> 00:33:35,110 S2: to participate in them, even if they might get tense. 605 00:33:35,110 --> 00:33:37,110 S2: And so that became sort of a new level of, 606 00:33:37,150 --> 00:33:38,470 S2: I don't know if you want to call it training 607 00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:40,710 S2: for me at learning how to keep my heart open, 608 00:33:40,750 --> 00:33:43,790 S2: even when I was intentionally entering into conversations with her 609 00:33:43,790 --> 00:33:45,390 S2: that I knew could grow tense. 610 00:33:46,590 --> 00:33:48,190 S4: Wow. Wow. 611 00:33:48,550 --> 00:33:50,750 S1: The opposite of control is participation. 612 00:33:51,310 --> 00:33:51,630 S4: Okay. 613 00:33:51,670 --> 00:33:55,790 S1: So it sounds to me like then Brene's husband is 614 00:33:56,070 --> 00:34:01,870 S1: a lot like you, Kelli, in that, uh, you equated 615 00:34:02,310 --> 00:34:06,310 S1: a good relationship with the lack of with the lack 616 00:34:06,310 --> 00:34:10,910 S1: of conflict. And to be able to. And so you 617 00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:14,100 S1: you use your wife as a litmus test to say, oh, 618 00:34:14,140 --> 00:34:17,339 S1: I'm doing okay because she's not mad at me. And 619 00:34:17,340 --> 00:34:19,779 S1: that's not a relationship either, right? 620 00:34:19,820 --> 00:34:24,660 S2: That's right. Yep. And that is a for the typically 621 00:34:24,660 --> 00:34:28,620 S2: in most relationships, there's uh, I actually had someone, uh, 622 00:34:28,620 --> 00:34:30,980 S2: a gentleman named Joshua Weiner say this to me recently. 623 00:34:31,020 --> 00:34:33,540 S2: He said, you know, Kelly, there's really only two wounds 624 00:34:33,860 --> 00:34:39,660 S2: abandonment and inadequacy. And they always marry each other. And, 625 00:34:39,660 --> 00:34:42,900 S2: and and so what I notice is that the person 626 00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:46,060 S2: who carries the abandonment wound is usually the person who 627 00:34:46,060 --> 00:34:48,460 S2: is sort of the barometer of closeness and distance in 628 00:34:48,460 --> 00:34:51,020 S2: the relationship. And when they can feel distance, they say 629 00:34:51,020 --> 00:34:53,739 S2: something about it. And then the person with the inadequacy 630 00:34:53,780 --> 00:34:57,460 S2: wound receives that as blame. And, uh, and then, you know, 631 00:34:57,500 --> 00:34:59,819 S2: you're off and running, they get defensive and then you 632 00:34:59,820 --> 00:35:04,380 S2: start to escalate each other's response. Um, but Brin's husband 633 00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:06,180 S2: is probably in the position that I'm in, which I 634 00:35:06,219 --> 00:35:09,580 S2: carry the inadequacy wound in our relationship. Which means for me, 635 00:35:09,739 --> 00:35:13,650 S2: if no one's complaining, I feel like we're doing okay. Yes. Right. 636 00:35:13,690 --> 00:35:15,689 S2: If my wife's not upset, I feel like we must 637 00:35:15,690 --> 00:35:18,529 S2: be pretty close. And. And so what? He's. What he's 638 00:35:18,530 --> 00:35:20,770 S2: trying to do is he's trying to preserve his sense 639 00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:24,130 S2: of being close to brand, of everything, being at peace. 640 00:35:24,130 --> 00:35:26,969 S2: And that and that. He's okay. Um, and it's just 641 00:35:27,010 --> 00:35:27,810 S2: asking him. 642 00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:31,850 S1: Equilibrium. Equilibrium. Like, we're we're able to stand up here together. 643 00:35:31,890 --> 00:35:34,969 S1: It's like, that's what we want. And she's feeling like, no, 644 00:35:35,330 --> 00:35:38,410 S1: we're tipping here because I'm not getting feedback. Let me 645 00:35:38,410 --> 00:35:44,770 S1: get Brandon here. Brandon, what do you think about that? Okay, 646 00:35:44,770 --> 00:35:50,410 S1: I don't hear her. Is she still there? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, 647 00:35:50,410 --> 00:35:52,290 S1: I hope that was helpful to you, Bren, because it 648 00:35:52,290 --> 00:35:55,130 S1: sure was to me. Uh, anything else that you wanted 649 00:35:55,130 --> 00:35:56,130 S1: to add to that, Kelly? 650 00:35:56,450 --> 00:35:59,130 S2: Well, I would like to add something to that, because, um, 651 00:35:59,130 --> 00:36:03,529 S2: that affirms Bren's instinct, but it doesn't really help her 652 00:36:03,570 --> 00:36:07,370 S2: sort through what to do next. Um, and, and so, 653 00:36:07,370 --> 00:36:11,750 S2: I think, number one, to have that compassion for her 654 00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:15,069 S2: husband that he's he's not trying to be avoidant. He's 655 00:36:15,070 --> 00:36:17,149 S2: not trying to put a ceiling on how close they 656 00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:20,430 S2: can be. He's not trying to sort of forsake his 657 00:36:20,430 --> 00:36:24,989 S2: responsibility to hold her accountable. He's, um, he's doing what 658 00:36:24,989 --> 00:36:28,230 S2: we all do, which he's he's he's trying to, uh, 659 00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:31,430 S2: to maintain a sense of of connection and love and 660 00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:34,469 S2: peace in the relationship. So just to recognize that, that 661 00:36:34,469 --> 00:36:37,950 S2: that's part of what's going on that when he does that, 662 00:36:37,989 --> 00:36:41,069 S2: it's because conflict might feel like more than he can 663 00:36:41,070 --> 00:36:43,629 S2: handle in that moment. And more than anything. And this 664 00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:47,910 S2: is so important, we can't force other people to open 665 00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:54,670 S2: their hearts. We can't we can't, uh, be the person who, um, 666 00:36:54,989 --> 00:36:58,029 S2: demands that they open theirs. What we can do is 667 00:36:58,030 --> 00:37:00,149 S2: recognize that when their heart is closed, even if it's 668 00:37:00,150 --> 00:37:03,310 S2: silently like that, our next job is to keep our 669 00:37:03,310 --> 00:37:06,549 S2: heart open in response to their closed heart. And and 670 00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:08,109 S2: I often think of Jesus, you know, when he says 671 00:37:08,110 --> 00:37:10,620 S2: anybody can love a friend, you know. But try loving 672 00:37:10,620 --> 00:37:13,259 S2: a tax collector or an enemy. Anyone can keep their 673 00:37:13,260 --> 00:37:15,620 S2: heart open to someone whose heart is open. Right. But 674 00:37:15,620 --> 00:37:17,540 S2: try keeping your heart open to someone whose heart is 675 00:37:17,540 --> 00:37:20,700 S2: closed now. Now you're working. Now you're growing. Now you're 676 00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:23,339 S2: being formed. So I would encourage Brynn to think of 677 00:37:23,380 --> 00:37:26,060 S2: that as her. Um, her space right now is to 678 00:37:26,060 --> 00:37:28,660 S2: learn how to keep her heart open to her husband 679 00:37:29,020 --> 00:37:31,660 S2: and call him forth and invite him into that open 680 00:37:31,660 --> 00:37:32,660 S2: heartedness as well. 681 00:37:33,219 --> 00:37:36,140 S1: Invite him to participate, right. To participate. 682 00:37:36,180 --> 00:37:38,739 S2: That's right. Yeah. Like I did my wife. Yeah. For 683 00:37:38,739 --> 00:37:40,940 S2: a year, my wife said that over and over, and 684 00:37:40,940 --> 00:37:42,860 S2: I finally heard it from Richard Rohr. 685 00:37:43,180 --> 00:37:47,219 S1: Yeah, exactly. And she's been saying that all the time. Uh, 686 00:37:47,219 --> 00:37:50,700 S1: invite him into the participation, not to control him to 687 00:37:50,739 --> 00:37:53,859 S1: do that. It reminds me kind of because I work 688 00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:58,700 S1: with Doctor Chapman in the love languages. You love stimulates love. 689 00:37:58,739 --> 00:38:01,979 S1: You speak somebody the way that they hear love. You 690 00:38:01,980 --> 00:38:06,860 S1: speak that into their life, and it opens them up 691 00:38:07,140 --> 00:38:10,410 S1: to at some point saying, well, you know, how's your 692 00:38:10,410 --> 00:38:13,730 S1: love tank doing that type of thing? This is this 693 00:38:13,730 --> 00:38:18,009 S1: the participation process that Doctor Kelly Flanagan talks about in 694 00:38:18,010 --> 00:38:20,529 S1: The Road Less Triggered. You can find it as our 695 00:38:20,530 --> 00:38:26,089 S1: featured resource at the website. Click through today's information and 696 00:38:26,090 --> 00:38:29,610 S1: you'll see it right there. Turning conflict into connection with 697 00:38:29,610 --> 00:38:33,290 S1: a single choice. Doesn't matter what relationship you have, that 698 00:38:33,290 --> 00:38:37,850 S1: is you have these triggers. This will work, quote unquote. 699 00:38:37,890 --> 00:38:41,370 S1: And we'll talk about that and define triggered straight ahead. 700 00:38:50,489 --> 00:38:52,730 S1: Every day he wakes up, he puts an X with 701 00:38:52,730 --> 00:38:56,370 S1: a magic marker. He puts an X on his wrist. 702 00:38:56,690 --> 00:39:00,969 S1: Why does Tim Timmons do that? And if you saw 703 00:39:00,969 --> 00:39:03,250 S1: the film, I can only imagine two. You know the 704 00:39:03,250 --> 00:39:05,330 S1: answer to that. We're going to talk with Tim tomorrow 705 00:39:05,330 --> 00:39:09,040 S1: right here. Radio. Backyard fence. Colleen Chow is our guest. 706 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,040 S1: A best of broadcast from last October on Friday. And 707 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,720 S1: her book on our way home is our thank you 708 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,640 S1: give a gift to support the program. If something we're 709 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,839 S1: talking about here today is touching you, you know it's 710 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,880 S1: touching somebody else. Help us keep it going. Just go 711 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,480 S1: to Kris Livorno. Scroll down and you'll see Colleen's book 712 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,640 S1: on our way home. Click through today's information. You'll see 713 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,360 S1: Doctor Kelly Flanagan. The road less triggered turning conflict into 714 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,640 S1: connection with a single choice. And Tricia was saying to me, 715 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,480 S1: we have not defined the word triggered. And she's right. 716 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,439 S1: So it's used in in the culture so much in 717 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,920 S1: so many different levels. What do you mean by triggered? 718 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,879 S2: Yeah, I was careful to do it. I think it's 719 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,359 S2: on page 1 or 2 because it is such an 720 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,000 S2: almost overused term these days. Um, and as a clinical 721 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,780 S2: psychologist myself, um, triggered has a very clinical sense to it. Right? 722 00:40:05,820 --> 00:40:08,939 S2: It's a it's a term we associate with people with 723 00:40:08,980 --> 00:40:13,060 S2: a mental health diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder. Um, you know, 724 00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:16,660 S2: for instance, a combat veteran who is triggered by a 725 00:40:16,660 --> 00:40:20,580 S2: backfiring car. And so, in that sense, triggered is reserved 726 00:40:20,580 --> 00:40:23,900 S2: for very a very small group of people with a 727 00:40:23,940 --> 00:40:27,180 S2: particular mental health diagnosis. But then, you know, you go 728 00:40:27,180 --> 00:40:31,540 S2: on TikTok and, you know, every influencer is, you know, 729 00:40:31,580 --> 00:40:34,299 S2: at Starbucks and not getting the right latte and they're 730 00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:37,860 S2: triggered and they're broadcasting it to, you know, a million followers. 731 00:40:37,860 --> 00:40:40,420 S2: And in that sense, triggered has sort of been diluted 732 00:40:40,420 --> 00:40:43,020 S2: to the point where it doesn't really mean anything. So 733 00:40:43,020 --> 00:40:45,859 S2: I wanted to take that word back and apply it 734 00:40:45,860 --> 00:40:48,780 S2: to a very specific situations. And the way I'd encourage 735 00:40:48,780 --> 00:40:51,779 S2: listeners to think about it is that triggered in the 736 00:40:51,780 --> 00:40:54,219 S2: sense that we're talking about the kind that does happen 737 00:40:54,219 --> 00:40:57,060 S2: in this repetitive way in our relationships. It has really 738 00:40:57,140 --> 00:41:00,620 S2: it's a two part process. Number one, your nervous system 739 00:41:00,620 --> 00:41:06,130 S2: is triggered. It it is activated and and that's okay. 740 00:41:06,489 --> 00:41:08,170 S2: In fact, there are situations where you want it to 741 00:41:08,170 --> 00:41:10,530 S2: be activated. If you're walking across a dark parking garage 742 00:41:10,530 --> 00:41:12,489 S2: at night and you hear footsteps coming up behind you, 743 00:41:12,530 --> 00:41:16,089 S2: quickly be triggered, right? Let your nervous system react. But 744 00:41:16,090 --> 00:41:18,810 S2: in most situations in our life, when our nervous system 745 00:41:18,810 --> 00:41:22,370 S2: is triggered, we are not in mortal danger. So that 746 00:41:22,370 --> 00:41:25,050 S2: nervous system is responding to something more than what's really 747 00:41:25,050 --> 00:41:27,850 S2: going on in the moment. So that happens first, and 748 00:41:27,850 --> 00:41:32,210 S2: then we make the emotional, spiritual, relational decision to close 749 00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:34,569 S2: our hearts, to go, oh, I don't want anything more 750 00:41:34,570 --> 00:41:36,730 S2: to do with this. I am not going to interact 751 00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:39,250 S2: with this. I'm going to start to shift into protection 752 00:41:39,250 --> 00:41:43,330 S2: mode rather than connection mode. And that's really the moment 753 00:41:43,330 --> 00:41:46,129 S2: where we want to cultivate a sense of choice. Do 754 00:41:46,130 --> 00:41:50,569 S2: I really want to make that spiritual, relational decision to 755 00:41:50,610 --> 00:41:53,009 S2: shift into protection mode, or do I want to get 756 00:41:53,010 --> 00:41:55,570 S2: my nervous system calm and stay in connection mode? 757 00:41:56,530 --> 00:41:59,170 S1: That has happened to me in like like business meetings. 758 00:41:59,370 --> 00:42:01,370 S1: You be in a room and somebody will say something 759 00:42:01,370 --> 00:42:04,560 S1: and it's like, well, that's not right. And it triggers this. 760 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,359 S1: This sense. And I can feel it. You know, my 761 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,239 S1: face gets hotter. You know, it's like, I want to 762 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,160 S1: say something here, but I better not say anything. So. 763 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,799 S1: So that's the that's the feeling. Here's a quote from 764 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,880 S1: the book. What if we're not in conflict with the 765 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,960 S1: person in front of us, but with the experience triggered 766 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,959 S1: inside of us? So that's another way that you can 767 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,839 S1: take yourself down the road. And the other question that 768 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,480 S1: you use with your clients is, uh, finish this sentence. 769 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,160 S1: That wouldn't have been so hard if it hadn't reminded 770 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,400 S1: me of blank. And you get them to go back 771 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,440 S1: to either that relationship or something else that happened way 772 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,640 S1: back when to kind of trace that, right? 773 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,359 S2: One of the things I've discovered in going sort of 774 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,560 S2: deeper and deeper into what's happening inside of us in 775 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,680 S2: those moments is that when you get really like all 776 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,700 S2: the way down to the bottom of it. What you 777 00:43:02,739 --> 00:43:06,980 S2: notice is that we are all afraid of being alone. Um, 778 00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:10,660 S2: and that in part, usually what we're reacting to in 779 00:43:10,660 --> 00:43:13,500 S2: our triggered moments is a fear of loneliness or an 780 00:43:13,500 --> 00:43:15,939 S2: experience of loneliness. And I know that's a vague term 781 00:43:15,940 --> 00:43:18,700 S2: as well, so I wanted to find it. In my experience, 782 00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:26,700 S2: loneliness has three pillars feeling unseen, misunderstood, or unsupported. And 783 00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:30,419 S2: so almost every time you drill down, excuse me into 784 00:43:30,420 --> 00:43:34,100 S2: that triggered moment, there's some residue of I feel unseen 785 00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:36,620 S2: right now. I feel misunderstood right now, or I feel 786 00:43:36,620 --> 00:43:40,180 S2: unsupported right now. And when you can begin to isolate 787 00:43:40,180 --> 00:43:43,940 S2: that at the root of your triggered moment and understand 788 00:43:43,980 --> 00:43:47,180 S2: the thread of that running through your story, uh, now 789 00:43:47,180 --> 00:43:49,780 S2: you've sort of elevated your perspective to a higher perspective. 790 00:43:49,780 --> 00:43:51,739 S2: And it's not about this person in front of you 791 00:43:51,739 --> 00:43:54,940 S2: anymore in this present moment. It's about that, that thread 792 00:43:54,940 --> 00:43:56,980 S2: running through your story, through all moments. 793 00:43:57,260 --> 00:44:01,370 S1: So recalling this and going back there is not blaming 794 00:44:01,730 --> 00:44:06,730 S1: your parent or your sibling or blaming anybody. It's to 795 00:44:06,770 --> 00:44:10,410 S1: understand why is this happening again, right? 796 00:44:11,050 --> 00:44:13,770 S2: And I'll give you an example of how it's impossible 797 00:44:13,770 --> 00:44:17,170 S2: to emerge from any childhood without some sense of loneliness 798 00:44:17,170 --> 00:44:19,450 S2: that we now carry into our adulthood. And we're trying 799 00:44:19,450 --> 00:44:22,130 S2: with all of our relationships to keep that experience at 800 00:44:22,170 --> 00:44:25,330 S2: bay again. So if if loneliness is feeling unseen and 801 00:44:25,330 --> 00:44:28,010 S2: misunderstood and unsupported, I'll never forget a time my oldest, 802 00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:30,689 S2: 17 at the time, he's 22 now. He sits me down. 803 00:44:30,690 --> 00:44:32,569 S2: He says, hey, I met somebody online. They live up 804 00:44:32,570 --> 00:44:35,009 S2: in Wisconsin and I want to go visit him this weekend. 805 00:44:35,370 --> 00:44:38,930 S2: And my answer was no. And he said, well, sit down. 806 00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:40,770 S2: I want to explain myself. And he gave me all 807 00:44:40,770 --> 00:44:43,810 S2: these great justifications, like, this is why I deserve to 808 00:44:43,850 --> 00:44:48,330 S2: be sort of treated as if I'm responsible. Um, these 809 00:44:48,330 --> 00:44:50,649 S2: are all the precautions I'm going to take. Like, these 810 00:44:50,650 --> 00:44:53,450 S2: are all the reasons you should let me go. And 811 00:44:53,650 --> 00:44:55,569 S2: when he got done, he said, so. Do you understand 812 00:44:55,570 --> 00:44:58,880 S2: what I'm saying? And I said yes. I had paraphrased 813 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,360 S2: everything he said I clearly understood and he said, okay, 814 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,640 S2: can I go? And I said, no. And and he 815 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,800 S2: and he didn't feel supported. Right. There was a loneliness 816 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:14,480 S2: in that moment. So even in the healthiest, most wonderful childhoods, 817 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,319 S2: we we pick up this residue of loneliness. And now 818 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:18,919 S2: for the rest of our lives, we're trying to sort 819 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:19,839 S2: out what to do with it. 820 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,640 S1: That makes an awful lot of sense to me, Kelly, 821 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:29,399 S1: and that they're afraid of being alone. The being unseen, misunderstood, unsupported, 822 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,840 S1: the opposite of control is not letting go. It's participation. 823 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,120 S1: There's an awful lot in here. Um, you also write 824 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,239 S1: everything that feels like a failure of progress is actually 825 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:46,320 S1: a focus for progress. Um, and we could unpack that. 826 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,399 S1: The question why and how important that is. You even 827 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,640 S1: use improvisation, the yes and technique instead of, uh, conflict. 828 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,180 S1: We don't have time. We're just scratching the surface here. 829 00:45:57,380 --> 00:45:59,940 S1: And I'm so glad that you've written this, Doctor Kelly 830 00:45:59,940 --> 00:46:04,660 S1: Flanagan The Road less triggered turning conflict into connection with 831 00:46:04,660 --> 00:46:06,819 S1: a single choice. And if you think, well, that's just 832 00:46:06,820 --> 00:46:10,859 S1: a marriage book. No, it's not any relationship that you have. 833 00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:14,340 S1: If you're single, this is probably going on inside of you, 834 00:46:14,340 --> 00:46:16,660 S1: and it will help you if you're a parent or 835 00:46:16,660 --> 00:46:18,980 S1: if you're a child. We're going to get Kelly's son 836 00:46:18,980 --> 00:46:22,540 S1: on here and talk about that the next time. Kelly. 837 00:46:22,540 --> 00:46:24,859 S1: Thank you. This is going to win an award I 838 00:46:24,900 --> 00:46:26,660 S1: guarantee it. You ready for that? 839 00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:29,820 S2: Well, thank you for already giving it its first award, Chris. 840 00:46:30,660 --> 00:46:32,500 S2: It was an honor to be here. Thank you. 841 00:46:32,940 --> 00:46:38,180 S1: The road less triggered. Remember that, friend. And you can 842 00:46:38,180 --> 00:46:44,339 S1: find it at the website. Go to Chris. Chris. Our 843 00:46:44,340 --> 00:46:47,580 S1: program is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of 844 00:46:47,620 --> 00:46:49,300 S1: Moody Bible Institute.