S1: I want people to have hope in the midst of me,
S1: and my loved one is dying in this part. Really hard.
S1: You are not alone. He is at work in the
S1: midst of conflict to transform you even then.
UU: Welcome to building.
S2: Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of the New York
S2: Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Today. If you're walking
S2: through a season of grief or anticipating one, don't miss
S2: our conversation. Our guest says that our lives can be
S2: transformed as we face death with loved ones.
S3: Whitney Pipkin will join us today. She went through the
S3: loss of her mother and through that deep valley. She
S3: really believes that death teaches us how to live. We're
S3: going to explore that today. And if you want to
S3: see our featured resource, go to Building Relationships with Us
S3: and you'll see the book beautifully illustrated on the cover.
S3: We Shall All Be Changed how facing death with loved
S3: ones transforms us again. Go to building relationships with us,
S3: Doctor Chapman. React to that statement. Death teaches us how
S3: to live. Do you agree with that?
S4: I have to be honest, Chris. I haven't thought of
S4: it that way. But yes, with reflection on that, I
S4: agree with that. You know, it kind of puts things
S4: in perspective for us because sometimes it gets so caught
S4: up in the day to day activities of life, you know,
S4: that we fail to think about the deeper meaning of life.
S4: So yeah, I agree with that. And I think this
S4: is going to be a great discussion. So I know
S4: that those who are listening today who have lost a
S4: family member are definitely going to find this helpful. And
S4: let's face it, all of us, at some juncture in
S4: life will face the death of family members.
S3: Well, there's probably somebody anticipating that as well today. So
S3: listen up. If you go to building Relationships with us,
S3: you'll see our featured resource by Whitney Pipkin, the book,
S3: We Shall All Be Changed. She's a journalist who lives
S3: with her husband and three children in Northern Virginia. She
S3: writes for the Chesapeake Bay Journal, but you may have
S3: read her work in the Washington Post and National Geographic
S3: the Gospel Coalition. She serves as the written content coordinator
S3: for the Ministry. Women and work. You can find out
S3: more about Whitney and her book, We Shall All Be
S3: Changed at Building Relationships with Us.
S4: Well, Whitney, welcome to Building Relationships.
S1: Well, thank you for having me, Gary.
S4: Now, you dedicated this book to the memory of your mom.
S4: You say she was. And I'm quoting here, the woman
S4: who always knew I could do hard things but never
S4: wanted me to have to do those hard things. Tell
S4: me about your mom. And a good memory you have
S4: of her.
S1: My mom squeezed a century of life into her two
S1: short 63 years. Despite living under the shadow of cancer
S1: for 20 years. More than 20 years, mom was known
S1: for her. This larger than life energy and her determination
S1: to do whatever it is that she set her mind to.
S1: So one of my favorite memories of her was seeing
S1: her take up a new hobby later in life. She
S1: had been very accomplished in a career as a banker,
S1: but she was the daughter of a professional artist and
S1: a hobby carpenter, and she just never considered herself as
S1: creative as them. And it wasn't until kind of that
S1: last decade of her life that in her empty nest years,
S1: she started taking up woodworking and connecting with the memory
S1: of her dad. And she found out she actually was
S1: really creative. So that was really fun. About a month
S1: before she died, she came out to Kansas to or
S1: from Kansas to Virginia to visit my family, even though
S1: she was really sick. Not well enough to do that.
S1: And she came just so she could bring them this
S1: very house she had built. That was from my grandma's
S1: old redwood fence. And it has this pine cone mantel,
S1: this pine cone fountain. And it was such a display
S1: of her creativity, her delight and her grandkids and this
S1: new way she was expressing herself. And it's I keep
S1: reflecting on that after she's gone, you know, what are
S1: the new things I've been afraid to try? And that's
S1: given me courage even to write this book or to
S1: do other things I thought I couldn't do.
S4: Yeah. Now, you mentioned that she had a 20 year
S4: exposure to cancer. How old were you when you found
S4: out about her cancer?
S1: I was in the seventh grade. My sister was in
S1: the fifth. Uh, in the book, I talk about kind
S1: of that scene that's etched in my memory of when
S1: she told us, you know, sitting on her bed after
S1: school one day. And really, I remember her being afraid.
S1: My papa had just died of cancer a couple of
S1: years before, and that was her dad. And so I
S1: knew what that word meant. I knew that it could
S1: take her from us, although I couldn't imagine that happening.
S1: And I wrote in the book and I'll just quote,
S1: you know, I remember feeling like she might evaporate from
S1: us at any moment, like the mere idea of her
S1: not being here forever was enough to make her disappear
S1: right away. And little girls, we can't help but take
S1: our mothers for granted until suddenly we can't. And so
S1: at age 11 or 12, however old I was, I
S1: was discovering my mom's mortality and the fact that she
S1: could be here one day and then not the next.
S1: And that was really life altering.
S4: Yeah. You know, we normally think in terms of a
S4: person dying much later than that. And when we realize
S4: that young in life that, you know, death is a reality.
S4: How did you respond emotionally to that as a child
S4: of that age?
S1: I was. I remember being scared. I remember her being scared.
S1: And so I was scared. You really reflect on the
S1: oldest daughter. You reflect what your parents are, are feeling
S1: and emoting. And my parents were divorced and both recently remarried.
S1: So there were questions around where we live, where we
S1: go to school. You know, this would change everything. And, uh,
S1: you know, and I was also in the seventh grade,
S1: so I was pretty self consumed. I was really into hair. And,
S1: you know, all the things that seventh grade girls are into.
S1: And I was into being in the center of attention.
S1: So there was an aspect of, gee, I'm going through something.
S1: And that felt kind of cool to be at the
S1: church retreat with this massive prayer request of, my mom
S1: has cancer, you know, but it wasn't really until she
S1: began to lose her hair that that that newness faded
S1: very quickly and the reality sunk in. And that was
S1: the morning after Y2K, if you remember, when we thought
S1: maybe the world would end before it went to the
S1: year 2000, and I had a bunch of friends over
S1: for a sleepover. And that was the next morning, is
S1: when she began to lose her hair. So it was
S1: coming out in clumps in the shower. And when she
S1: began to look sick, that's when it really began to
S1: impact me. And in ways that I don't know that
S1: I could fully process then, but have been processing through
S1: this book and through looking back at those years. Yeah.
S4: You make a case in the book that our culture
S4: and even Christian culture doesn't do a good job with
S4: facing death. Why do you think that is?
S5: Yeah.
S1: On on some level, I think it goes back to
S1: the Garden of Eden and the serpent whispering to us,
S1: you know, you will not surely die. And we want
S1: to believe that, you know, it's a lie that we
S1: want to believe for both good and bad reasons. Ecclesiastes
S1: says that eternity is written on our hearts. So at
S1: some level we intuitively know we were made to live forever.
S1: And yet because of sin and the fall, if Christ tarries,
S1: we will all face death in this world and we
S1: will go through it ourselves. And so I think of,
S1: you know, what Paul says in the scriptures, I do
S1: not want you to be surprised by this or that.
S1: And I do think that people, especially Christians, should not
S1: be surprised by death this side of the fall. Rather,
S1: it's something that we should take the time to be
S1: more prepared for theologically, just like it helps us to
S1: have like a theology of suffering before we are suffering.
S1: It really helps us to revisit our theology of death
S1: as a subcategory of that, and to think about how
S1: could God be good in light of this? What could
S1: God be doing? And that's what I that's the conversation
S1: I want to invite, especially Christians, but also non-Christians. I've
S1: seen in conversations around this topic that the idea of
S1: being transformed through the loss of loved ones is something
S1: that resonates broadly with people, that that rings true with
S1: people who've been through it, and that people who've really
S1: dealt with it. You know, there are people who don't
S1: deal with it as many years. I did not deal
S1: with it and really face it and think through it.
S1: But there are there is a unique opportunity when we're
S1: broken open by loss, for God to sow some new
S1: things in us, and for there to be a new
S1: perspective on the life that we're left to live after
S1: our loved one is no longer here.
S4: Yeah. So you're sharing this story in written form today.
S4: We're talking about your experience in this. What do you
S4: hope for people who read the book and people who
S4: are listening to us today? What do you hope will
S4: happen as they as they read or as they reflect
S4: upon what we're talking about today?
S1: My hope is that people will see this as an
S1: invitation to a conversation that will ultimately deeply encourage and
S1: prepare them for one of life's hardest, most sanctifying, most
S1: expected trials, which is losing people around us, losing those
S1: we love. It's something that we will go through and
S1: that there is. A design even in, you know, when
S1: God turned something hard for good. There is a design
S1: and a kind of silver lining of the presence of
S1: Christ in this hardship and going through death and knowing
S1: of who Christ is, a sharing in his suffering that
S1: I really want people to show up for. I don't
S1: know what that will look like in their lives, but
S1: I know what it looked like in mine. And I
S1: want to testify to the value, the spiritual value of
S1: entering into this process in the fullest way possible.
S4: Brittany, I want you to react to a section where
S4: you write these words, and I'm quoting one of the
S4: hardest aspects of facing the diagnosis of the death of
S4: a loved one is that it's not about us, and
S4: yet it impacts us deeply. There were times I went
S4: to counseling because I wasn't sure how to feel. Times
S4: I needed spaces where I could be both grieving my
S4: mom's mortality and also, well, mad at her on occasion.
S4: Respond to those words.
S1: The more I talk about this aspect of living with
S1: a loved one with a long term diagnosis, the more
S1: I see that this is a common experience for people
S1: who have a loved one with a chronic disease or
S1: chronic pain. It changes people. It can change them for
S1: the better. It can change them, not for the better. Um,
S1: and it understandably, it makes them somewhat self-focused. It makes
S1: them turn inward because they're in pain. They're enduring hard things,
S1: and that story largely becomes about them and you coming
S1: alongside them. And so it really changes the relationship dynamics. Um,
S1: you know, I was it was mother daughter, but it
S1: was also sick person person caring for a sick person.
S1: And that's a really different dynamic. Um, so when she
S1: would call and say, can I visit on this date?
S1: She actually didn't ask Gary. She would just say, these
S1: are the dates I'm coming to see my grandkids. And
S1: because she was sick and she could die, you know,
S1: I had to say yes. It felt like for a
S1: lot of those years. Yeah. And and that was a
S1: difficult that was a difficult thing. And that was something
S1: that I was able to share with my community, my church,
S1: my friends here. And they knew when I said, mom's visiting,
S1: please pray for me. They knew what I meant. They
S1: knew that it would be this intense time where she
S1: would want to squeeze every drop of life out of
S1: me and my kids and have this full experience, and
S1: that it felt like being hugged by a boa constrictor.
S1: In some ways, it was just exhausting, and none of
S1: us knew how long the race was. None of us
S1: knew where the finish line was for her. If she
S1: was going to die this year, or if we had
S1: another five years, we didn't know. So to be able
S1: to pace myself to, you know, she would leave and
S1: I would have to go talk to my pastor. I
S1: feel like garbage because I am so annoyed by her.
S1: I am so I'm struggling in this relationship. I feel
S1: like a teenage daughter again because I feel like there's
S1: not room for me to be my own person because
S1: her experience is so consuming. It's so the center of
S1: what's going on with our family and, you know, but
S1: because I was able to acknowledge that, I think in
S1: God's kindness, he did heal some of that. Near the end.
S1: There was I talk about in the book that there
S1: was a time near the end, about a month before
S1: she died, where she wanted to visit, and I said,
S1: that doesn't work for me, mom, dad's visiting that weekend.
S1: I can't do that weekend. And she said, okay, what
S1: does work for you? And I, like, held the phone
S1: away from my ear. I was like, is this my mom?
S1: Am I talking to my mom right now? Is this
S1: the same person? I mean, it was the one time
S1: she could have said no. I literally am dying and
S1: I get to come when I want to come. And
S1: she didn't. And she said, you know what works for you?
S1: And that was kind of the beginning of her spiritual healing,
S1: her letting go of this world, reaching for the next.
S1: And it healed deeply some of those wounds of the
S1: relationship being about her all those years. And there at
S1: the end, she mothered me and she let it be
S1: about me, um, for a minute, even in the midst
S1: of her suffering, and that I just see so much
S1: of God's kindness in that. And that was only because
S1: I was able to say, this is hard. And God said,
S1: I know. I see you, too. There's room for both
S1: of you to suffer, and one doesn't have to trump
S1: the other when we're talking to the Lord about it
S1: or in our Christian community, it can be both.
S4: I think a lot of our listeners who are living
S4: with this reality of, of a long term illness are
S4: identifying with what you're saying, you know, mixed emotions, mixed feelings,
S4: you know, from day to day in terms of what's happening.
S4: You mentioned earlier, uh, the loss of our hair, which
S4: came from the chemo that she was taking and the
S4: the treatments in all of that. How did how did
S4: that affect you when you saw how different she looked? Um.
S1: Yeah. When I was in the seventh grade, it was,
S1: you know, significant. I remember having compassion for my mom
S1: because hair was everything to me. I would just miss
S1: the bus trying to curl my hair perfectly, you know? And, yeah,
S1: my mom lost her hair. I mean, it was this
S1: gut check on my superficiality at the peak of my
S1: superficial years was like, does this really matter as much
S1: as you want it to matter? Um, your mom is
S1: downstairs fighting for her life, and you're curling your hair. Uh,
S1: so it was a sweet kind of. This world really
S1: is passing away. Do I really believe what Scripture says
S1: about jars of Clay and my, you know, appearance not
S1: being everything? And then as I and as her cancer
S1: came back, and the second time she lost her hair was.
S1: Right after my first daughter was born. So my kids
S1: never knew her with hair. Um, and it's funny because
S1: when I was growing up, she had brown hair. She
S1: was brunette. My whole family is brunettes. And then after
S1: she lost it the first time, she died at blonde.
S1: And so for the first time, people said you and
S1: your mom look alike. And I was like, oh, we do,
S1: you know. So in my brain, she's those two people.
S1: She's the brunette, she's the blonde. And my brain could
S1: not really comprehend the hairless version. It just wasn't my mom.
S1: That was my kid's grandma. That was who they knew.
S1: And it was a different season of her and I
S1: just something in me subconsciously didn't want to know her
S1: that way or remember her that way. I wanted to
S1: protect the way I saw her in my mind. And
S1: so I didn't, you know, I would take a pictures and,
S1: you know, it's just her arms or the bottom of
S1: half of her smile, or like I was subconsciously cropping
S1: her hair or lack of hair out of these photos
S1: and these memories. Um, it didn't bother my kids because
S1: that's how they knew her. But for me, it was
S1: just this really subconscious struggle of, oh, she looks sick,
S1: you know, and I. Yeah. So it was. It was hard, um,
S1: I think. It? Yeah. There's nothing else to say. But
S1: it was. It was hard. I don't know if there
S1: was a healthier way to go about it, but that
S1: was one of the ways I processed it was, oh,
S1: this is hard to look at. This is hard to
S1: deal with. Yeah.
S4: I remember when my wife had cancer and went through
S4: chemo and lost her hair. Of course she's fine. And
S4: it was 12 years ago and she's still living and
S4: she's healthy and all, but we didn't know. You don't know.
S4: You know, when all your going through all that, whether
S4: death is imminent or whether it's going to be down
S4: the road somewhere. But I remember, I remember the wigs,
S4: the wigs and the hats because she didn't want to see,
S4: you know, people without hair. So she had wigs and
S4: I think she had 20, 20 or 30 different hats
S4: that she wore during that time. But she calls that
S4: her lost year because it was a whole year, you know,
S4: that she went through that. But we're just so grateful
S4: that it was effective for her, you know. And then
S4: she has no sign of cancer now. So but that's
S4: not normally the outcome, as all of us know. So
S4: you say that she seemed more radiant as she got
S4: closer to death. Say a word about that.
S1: Yeah. And I wonder if it was God's work in
S1: me to see her the way that he was seeing her.
S1: You know, as there is this layer of as your
S1: as your body shuts down, as you reach the end
S1: of your earthly life, you're coming alive to your spiritual
S1: life to for a believer, you're coming alive to your
S1: future hope. And it's becoming real. It's dawning. And other
S1: people I've heard talk about this too. It's like you're seeing, um,
S1: at the end of a day like the dawn of
S1: the next day. And you didn't you couldn't really imagine
S1: it beforehand. And Scripture uses all this poetic and language about,
S1: you know, an acorn. My language is the acorn becoming
S1: the oak tree because we have one in our yard.
S1: That's why I talked to the kids about when they
S1: ask what grandma looks like now, I say, well, I
S1: can't say what her future body will look like, but
S1: I know that it will be as different as the
S1: acorn is from the oak tree, and as different as
S1: a kernel of wheat from a field of of wheat.
S1: And so I got, I guess I got to glimpse
S1: that as her body was shutting down and, you know,
S1: she'd been on all these treatments and all this that
S1: had these effects. But there was kind of this glow
S1: that began to dawn on her. And maybe I imagined it,
S1: I don't know, but I was able to look at
S1: her again. I was able to fully look at her
S1: and take in this frame of the person who had
S1: loved me, brought me into this world, and just the
S1: gift of getting to see her hope, dawn and her
S1: future hope become reality. There was a radiance to it,
S1: you know, like Moses's face became radiant after he saw God.
S1: And there was just a layer of that. There was.
S1: It was a thin place where heaven and earth seemed
S1: to hold hands for a minute. And I got to
S1: see by being there her hope become true, and it
S1: has given me, you know, I walked away saying everything
S1: we believe is true. That's the thing I told people
S1: that day I can't even describe. I'm struggling to describe.
S1: And I struggled to describe in the book why I
S1: knew that. But I think other people who've been there
S1: would also say the same that. There was just a
S1: sense that. That the thing that was happening was truer
S1: even than the reality of death, that the the hope
S1: that she was coming alive to it was something in
S1: me resonated with it, like, this is what we're waiting for.
S1: And so while I'm devastated that I don't won't get
S1: my mom Earth side anymore, I felt like, um, you know,
S1: more like a bridesmaid walking her to her groom than
S1: a grieving daughter in that day. Mhm.
S4: Yeah. That's a beautiful picture. I like that. You know,
S4: as you wrote this book, of course, you're looking back
S4: on the whole experience. Was it important to remember not
S4: only the good times, the positive moments, but also the
S4: conflicts that you alluded to earlier?
S1: Yeah, that was really important to me. It's hard to do. Well,
S1: I think we want to honor our loved ones so much,
S1: and so we don't want to. We shy away from
S1: going there about certain things. And of course, this is
S1: not a tell all. I did not put everything in there.
S1: But I do want to ring true to reality for people.
S1: I don't want someone who is in my boat, you know,
S1: as I was that emotion of, oh, I just had
S1: this visit with my mom and it didn't go well.
S1: And I feel like a bratty teenager because I have
S1: all these emotions that I don't know what to do with.
S1: I don't want to chide that person. I mean, I've
S1: had people tried me like, well, you have to be
S1: nice to your mom. She's dying. And I'm like, yeah,
S1: but she's been dying for 20 years. I mean, how
S1: do I, you know, it's a marathon. How do you
S1: how do you lean on the Lord to love difficult people? Well,
S1: you can't do it if you don't acknowledge that they're
S1: difficult or that the relationship has been difficult for you. Mhm. Um,
S1: and it was difficult for her to I'm sure there was,
S1: you know, just it introduced this whole layer of difficulty
S1: and that is part and parcel of life in a
S1: fallen world. And you have these relationships that are affected
S1: by the shadow of death. That's hanging over them. You
S1: don't know how much longer you have with each other,
S1: and it's having all these impacts. And to not be
S1: honest about that, I don't think helps any of us
S1: because I the goal is not to say my mom
S1: was a saint in an angel and she did no wrong.
S1: It's to say, look at how God was at work
S1: in her weakness and my weakness, how how God was
S1: at work to redeem her, to bring her to full
S1: life on the other side of death. And I think
S1: I was able to see that because I was honest
S1: about how hard it was at times. And I want
S1: people to have hope in the midst of man. My
S1: loved one is dying and this part is really hard.
S1: We're fighting about end of life wishes or we're fighting
S1: about that vase that my you know, sister and I
S1: want to fight over whatever it is. Um, there's so
S1: many conflicts that arise in the face of death, and
S1: that is normal. That happens. And I just want to
S1: offer people, like, I just want to sit with them
S1: in that and say, you are not alone. This is
S1: this is part of the dying process. To sin affects
S1: every single aspect. And yet Christ is with you and
S1: he wants to work in those like really confusing situations
S1: where you're not sure. Am I the bad guy? What's
S1: going on here? Um, that he is at work in
S1: the midst of conflict to transform you even then through conflict?
S4: Yeah. I think especially as Christians, we often don't want
S4: to talk about those negative feelings that we have along
S4: the way in this journey. You know, we want to
S4: act like we think Christians are supposed to act, and
S4: they have been seeing God's hand and being positive all
S4: the time. But the reality is, we are human and
S4: we do have emotions. And and there are conflicts that
S4: often develop in families around the death of a loved one.
S4: So yeah, I think your honesty and your openness in
S4: this book is going to is going to resonate with
S4: a lot of people.
S3: Whitney, what would you say to the person who right
S3: now is anticipating the death of someone and they have
S3: that tension on the inside of, you know, but we
S3: have conflict and and I'm struggling with my struggling. What
S3: would you say to that person?
S1: Yeah, I mean, that is where the gift of the
S1: Holy Spirit really matters. Um, I and good counselors I
S1: had near the end, I felt like, okay, my mom
S1: is dying, and she made an about face and wouldn't
S1: talk about it with me. No I'm not. Let's talk
S1: about the next treatment. And that was really difficult for
S1: me because I. And there was a conversation where I
S1: had to be brave and say, mom, you might have
S1: your own process going on. You might need to be
S1: strong and keep fighting. But can I feel differently? And
S1: can I tell you how I feel? And I said,
S1: you know, I feel like you're dying. And so when
S1: I come at Thanksgiving, I'm going to have a hard
S1: time being happy, because that's really hard for me. And
S1: I just need you to know and expect that I'm
S1: going to be sad. And I hope that's okay, because
S1: I just can't fake it at this point. And she said, yes, um,
S1: that is so I'm sure that's so hard for you.
S1: And that was like, oh, to have her be there
S1: for me when it was about, I mean, it was
S1: her suffering. It was her trial, her death. But she
S1: entered into what I was feeling and that that healed
S1: a big wound for me. It began to heal it, um,
S1: but only because I exposed it and said entrusted God
S1: with it. There was a holy restlessness that I felt
S1: as death was drawing near, and I would say, respond
S1: to that, whatever that is for you, man, I really
S1: I don't want to have this conversation, but I'm afraid
S1: of not having it. Um, just go there because people
S1: change dramatically as death draws near. And the person you
S1: thought would never change and for 20 years has not changed,
S1: could change at the end. I mean, they could. There's
S1: an openness there that I found that was shocking to me.
S1: And it was like the Holy Spirit was helping us
S1: communicate in a way that hadn't, hadn't been there because
S1: we were just operating. What was happening was spiritual, not
S1: just physical. And so we were able to communicate and
S1: see each other in a new way. That was really beautiful.
S1: And I want I want that for people.
S3: Hey, thanks a lot for listening to the podcast of
S3: Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman. I want to send
S3: you to Building Relationships with us to find out more
S3: about your loved languages, to take the free assessment, and
S3: to get some resources there, like the book that we're
S3: talking about today with Whitney Pipkin. We shall all be changed.
S3: Facing death with loved ones transforms us. You can find
S3: a link to that at the website. You might send
S3: somebody else there who's walking through these deep waters like
S3: Whitney is talking about today, building relationships with us. Thanks
S3: a lot for listening and for sending this to somebody
S3: who might need to hear it as well.
S4: Whitney. All of us remember the story of Jesus at
S4: the tomb of Lazarus, and the shortest verse in the
S4: Bible simply says, Jesus wept. What comfort did you find
S4: from from those words from Jesus?
S1: I think that chapter 11 of John is so helpful
S1: for people that are in that caregiving role, or walking
S1: with a loved one, because that is our experience. We
S1: are like the sisters who are saying, Jesus, our brother
S1: is sick. Where are you? Why aren't you here? Why
S1: aren't you doing what I've been praying for you to do? And,
S1: you know, Jesus tarries at a distance. And then when
S1: he comes, he doesn't say, I'm about to resurrect your brother. He, uh,
S1: he says, I am the resurrection and the life. So
S1: he tells them, what you need in your grief is me.
S1: Not the answer to your questions. Not even necessarily earthly healing.
S1: But I am the hope in your grief. And then
S1: he doesn't rush to the resurrection either. He stops and
S1: Jesus weeps with them. And so our Savior made time
S1: in in what seems like an urgent situation to grieve
S1: and to tarry in grief with these sisters, even though
S1: he knew he would resurrect right then. And so I
S1: think that's where Christians can really grow in modeling and
S1: being like Christ. We want to rush to that resurrection.
S1: I mean, we want to we want Easter Sunday joy
S1: all the time. And I don't think we get the
S1: fullness of it if we don't tarry at the cross,
S1: if we don't tarry in that Holy Saturday, that's like
S1: they didn't know he was going to raise from rise
S1: from the dead. Their hope was dead. And we feel
S1: that way in our own debt. You know, I really
S1: there are people who thought we really thought God was
S1: going to heal. Really prayed that he would and have
S1: a crisis of faith. And these sisters had a crisis
S1: of faith. They knew Christ could save their brother whom
S1: they whom he loved, and he didn't. And so the
S1: way that Christ met with them, I think it's such
S1: a picture of how Christ met with me and my
S1: grief of just his presence, and that that was enough,
S1: that it was accomplishing something in me to understand that
S1: even in the face of death, he is the resurrection
S1: and the life. He is the one we cling to
S1: when we don't know how long until our loved ones
S1: will be seen again, when we don't even know what
S1: happened to them. We don't know if they trusted in Christ.
S1: In all our unknowns, he meets us, he sits with us,
S1: and he weeps with us. And so that makes that
S1: that process, that grief valuable, because it is a time
S1: where we share in the sufferings, we fellowship and the
S1: sufferings of Christ. And he fellowships with us. Yeah.
S4: You know, over and over in the Bible, we read
S4: the words, I will be with you, I will be
S4: with you, I'll be with I was reading just this
S4: morning in the book of Genesis when God said to Jacob,
S4: Go to Egypt, take your whole family. I will be
S4: with you. I will be with you. Those words are
S4: powerful because it's it's awareness that we're not walking the
S4: road alone in that journey of not walking alone. Uh,
S4: you talk about the value of friendships, friends who will
S4: walk with you through the journey, and you write in
S4: the book. And I'm quoting here, it was my closest
S4: friends who gave me something I didn't know I needed.
S4: As time marched on and mom's cancer remained. Permission to
S4: have my own process. They let this trial be not
S4: only about my mom, but also about me sometimes. So
S4: talk about the value of friends. During this experience.
S1: Yeah. I mean, I talked earlier about how, you know,
S1: our loved one that's in it has a different experience
S1: than those of us who are in the kind of
S1: supporting role, the supporting actors in the story. And I
S1: saw it as a Venn diagram. You know, there was
S1: times where mom and I would have the same emotion
S1: to the stimulus, to the latest doctor's appointment or whatever.
S1: And there were many times where we had completely divergent reactions.
S1: She would take it as good news, I would take
S1: it as bad news, and I couldn't and didn't want
S1: to make her get on the same page as me.
S1: But I needed somehow to breathe and have, you know,
S1: be able to express what I was feeling to people
S1: that were just there for me. I mean, they knew
S1: my mom, but they could give me room to have
S1: a different set of emotions around what was going on.
S1: And that was my church family and friends and, you know, and,
S1: and my husband and my kids. You know, as time
S1: has gone on, all of those people have. I've just
S1: learned that we don't we think we have to, like,
S1: be strong for our loved one. And that doesn't actually work. Like,
S1: you know, when we are able to be weak with
S1: others and say, I am really struggling with this, I'm
S1: having a totally different experience than my loved one based
S1: on what just happened. Then we we invite others in
S1: and we get to experience God. I just think that's
S1: God's design to to be. It is not good for
S1: man to be alone, right. And so it is good
S1: for us to allow others in. And I don't know,
S1: I keep being I've always been afraid of being like
S1: too much for people. My sister and I both do
S1: this because our mom had cancer for so long, so
S1: she could, you know, come to Bible study and her
S1: prayer request would, like, trump everybody else's. And so I
S1: am like, so afraid of doing that to people, of
S1: one upping them with my suffering or my prayer request
S1: or whatever. And yet I found as I trusted people
S1: and said, this is what's going on. And it's hard
S1: for me that, um, and I was there for them, too.
S1: It wasn't a one way street. It blessed them to
S1: encourage me to be there for me. I wasn't too
S1: much for them. And it was, you know, whereas I
S1: may have been it may have been too much for
S1: my mom to handle, to go to her with what
S1: I was feeling. But in God's kindness, he made other
S1: people who could see me. And it was a reflection
S1: that God saw me and that I was not too
S1: much for God. That what I felt, as we see
S1: in the Psalms, there is room for all of it,
S1: and that it is good to bring it to the
S1: Lord and to our community.
S4: Yeah, and I think sometimes as friends, especially Christians, that
S4: we try to talk people out of their emotions, you know,
S4: we say, well, you shouldn't feel that way because you know,
S4: God is with you, rather than allowing them to be
S4: where they are and and being there with them. Uh,
S4: so I just I just think, you know, that whole
S4: thing of weeping with those who weep, uh, is an
S4: important part of friendship and not always trying to preach
S4: to the person, but just being there with them, you know,
S4: and processing things and allowing them, allowing them to be
S4: where they are.
S1: So, yeah, my favorite words have become, that's so hard.
S1: I mean, that's just, uh, that just makes me feel seen.
S1: And I, I love to say that to others. Now,
S1: that sounds really hard. Um, just to validate, like, their experience.
S1: And that's enough. That's often enough.
S4: Yeah. You know, we we have often mixed feelings and
S4: mixed thoughts. We are longing for the suffering to end
S4: when we see a person suffering over the long haul,
S4: but we're also longing for them to stay, you know,
S4: to make it, to make it through, to be still,
S4: be here with us. And those two are also conflicting
S4: thoughts that we have along the way. Right?
S1: Yeah. I have a chapter where I compare birth and
S1: death because I saw a lot of correlations, and I
S1: gave birth to my third child about four months before
S1: my mom died. So I saw and I think anyone
S1: who's been pregnant for nine months understands that there comes
S1: a point where as much as you don't want to
S1: give birth, you are ready to get this over with
S1: and you get that way with death, where you've seen
S1: your loved ones suffer and you get to a point
S1: where you're like, I do not want them to live
S1: this day any longer, and I want this day to
S1: give way to to her eternal rest, to her ending
S1: of the end of her suffering. And that can seem
S1: weird to people who haven't been there. Maybe it wasn't selfish.
S1: It was. I wanted her to no longer suffer. And
S1: so as much as I wanted her to be there
S1: for me, I mean, my sister and I said, you know,
S1: we told mom, uh, you're wondering what they're waiting for.
S1: You don't know. The hospice comes in and says, okay,
S1: they're in the final stages. And you're like, what does
S1: she need to hear from us to feel like she
S1: can go? And you feel this urgency to give her
S1: permission to go even though you don't want her to.
S1: And my sister and I said, you know, we kind
S1: of lied to her and said, we'll be fine. We'll
S1: be okay. We didn't know that we would. But you
S1: say these things to free them to the process. That's
S1: that's happening. That's inevitable. And you and you begin to
S1: long for the end of their suffering more than you
S1: dread the beginning of yours. That's how I would explain it.
S1: I guess it's both. And. Yeah. Still. Yeah.
S4: Whitney, talk about the day your mom died.
S1: So it was the Saturday after Thanksgiving. We'd been there
S1: all week. We didn't think she would die that week.
S1: We thought maybe she'd make it to the New year.
S1: We thought maybe it'd be our last holiday together. And
S1: we got there. And it was like every day was
S1: a new, uh, hospice came in on Wednesday. She didn't
S1: know they were coming in like it was. It was
S1: a blur. Every day was different. Um, but then on Saturday, uh.
S1: Is when she died. So Thursday we brought in oxygen
S1: and on Thursday she was able to kind of understand
S1: what was happening and have those moments that we've been
S1: praying for, those moments of clarity. And making that pivot toward.
S1: Finishing her race. Well, um, and then hospice told us
S1: that often mothers will not want to pass with their
S1: children in the room. And so that Friday night, we
S1: finally slept after many nights of my sister and I
S1: were both nursing babies, so we were like, just so
S1: drained and exhausted. And so we finally slept Friday night thinking,
S1: maybe mom will go, you know, with her husband at night.
S1: And the next morning she was still there and we
S1: were grateful we wanted to be there. And so we
S1: were in the room with her. It was Saturday afternoon,
S1: and she had had the restlessness stages and then was
S1: kind of in this peaceful stage. And my sister was, um,
S1: changing clothes in the bathroom. I was like, Allie, get
S1: out here because I could I heard the kind of
S1: the rattly breath and I sensed it was happening. And, uh,
S1: so my sister ran in and and we were both
S1: with her as well as our, um, friend who had
S1: been a hospice pastor and driven down to be with us.
S1: We were all in the room, and then the kids
S1: and her husband and everyone came in right around then.
S1: I don't know if they were in the room right then, but. Yeah. Um, yeah,
S1: we had a moment, you know, we had some time
S1: with with her, her body as well. Yeah. It was
S1: I saw the color drain. And yet, um, I knew
S1: that she was no longer here, um, and that we
S1: had witnessed the full reality of of what we believed
S1: coming through. Yeah.
S4: What were your feelings at that moment?
S1: I was like grateful that the marathon, the physical marathon
S1: of midwife ING her through death was over. I was exhausted.
S1: I was physically exhausted. I mean, it's physically laborious to
S1: do the work, especially with a, quote, fighter like my mom.
S1: I mean, you're, like, fighting her. You know, it's like
S1: it was physically demanding. Um, and I was also a
S1: little bit. Yeah. We were kind of like slap happy
S1: and and relieved, I would say. Which is weird, I think,
S1: unless you've been there. But we were just so glad
S1: she finished well and that we finished well, that we
S1: helped her have a good ending, that God answered that
S1: weird prayer that I had begun to pray that she
S1: would have a good ending, and that this story I
S1: couldn't have written of her, her death, that it just
S1: was unfolding before me, and I felt like I had
S1: experienced something unique in it being condensed. In that five
S1: day period, I was able to see the spiritual layers,
S1: the physical layers of what had happened. And, you know,
S1: that's why I went home and I wrote like 25
S1: pages of of everything down. And then later that became
S1: the book in the moment. It was just, you know,
S1: when you witness something kind of spiritually and you're like,
S1: I'm going to doubt that that was real later. I
S1: need to write that down so that I don't disbelieve
S1: my memory of how God was real in that situation,
S1: because it is indescribable. And it is, you know, we
S1: shall all be changed. It is unique. And I wanted
S1: to testify to that.
S3: Whitney, is that where the title comes from? Right. From Scripture.
S5: Yeah.
S1: It is, uh, even though it's not, you know, literally about.
S1: The dyeing process in this way. It's about how we
S1: will be changed in our resurrection. Uh, a friend said
S1: this book is really about is really about resurrection, which
S1: was striking to me that in death we cling to
S1: that resurrection. It becomes more real, more necessary, more assured,
S1: more imaginable. And that, yeah, and I am applying the
S1: way that we see our loved one die, the way
S1: that we witness the change that's going on, and wanting
S1: people to have hope that that change is also occurring
S1: in them and those who are left behind, that there
S1: is a transformation that will continue in them as they
S1: grieve and as they meet with Christ in their grief.
S4: Whitney talk about the the reality, the hope, the assurance
S4: that we have of heaven and living intention of wanting
S4: our tears wiped away. But we're still feeling grief. You know,
S4: we've got these positive realities and feelings about heaven, but
S4: we still are sensing the loss of the one who
S4: gave us life. But in your case.
S1: It's like there's a kind of a harp string between
S1: me and my mom. Not literally, but it's not always there.
S1: I'm not always aware of it. But there will be
S1: something that sort of thrums that that string and reminds
S1: me of that hope that I witnessed and that I'm
S1: walking toward. It'll be a hymn or a song or
S1: one of those moments where you realize your loved one's
S1: not here, and I come alive to that future hope
S1: in a way that puts my present reality into perspective,
S1: that makes whatever suffering is going on feel light and
S1: momentary for a moment as I remember the weight of
S1: glory that's coming. And so I. I am grateful that
S1: I have that thread, that it was always there to
S1: some degree, between me and and my future hope, but
S1: that having someone on the other side makes us think
S1: of it more often. It makes it kind of thrum
S1: in reality a little more often. And it is something
S1: that we are desperate for. And because we're desperate for it,
S1: we we look for it, we seek it, and we're
S1: able to sense that it's true as well.
S4: Yeah. In the book, you share that your mother wrote
S4: in her journal these words, here we are at the
S4: cliff waiting to find out if there's a bridge to
S4: here that is life here or a bridge to you. Jesus,
S4: help me to walk this next chapter, long or short,
S4: with grace and faith beyond my feeble belief. Did you
S4: discover that in her journal before she died or after
S4: she died?
S1: After she died? Yeah. And it was really healing for
S1: me because I think she protected us from the fullness
S1: of her laments with the Lord. She had kind of this, like,
S1: positivity vibe toward us that bothered me, that I was like, mom,
S1: tell me how you really feel. And so to see
S1: her journal and to see that she had had that
S1: conversation with God, she had wrestled with God over the
S1: length of her life, over her time with us. And
S1: she had said, even if with God, that she had said,
S1: even if you don't give me more time, I trust you.
S1: I trust that you'll be good. I trust that there's
S1: something good that you have me walking toward, and I'm
S1: willing to let you let you have the reins here.
S1: And that was so healing and helpful for me that
S1: she was, you know, letting go of this life and
S1: reaching for the next in a way she didn't always
S1: show her daughters. She didn't want us to see the
S1: fullness of that grief and that lament. And yet I'm
S1: so grateful that she did that grappling with the Lord,
S1: because I think that's where the value is for each
S1: of us to be able to say, um, you know,
S1: like Jesus did take this cup from me, not my will,
S1: but yours be done. And we don't say the second
S1: without the first. We say our prayer. We say our
S1: fold wish and hope in the face of death. And
S1: then we say, even if you don't, even if you
S1: don't rescue me from this fiery trial, you are still good.
S1: You will still be glorified. And I am still running
S1: toward a hope that is more true than the reality
S1: of death.
S4: Whitney, I'd just like to say a word to our
S4: listeners who may be the one who has cancer or
S4: some disease, and they know that death is is nearer,
S4: or at least it appears to be nearer. Writing something
S4: like this about your relationship with God and leaving it
S4: in your journal or somewhere with family members can be very,
S4: very helpful to them. It's a way that you can
S4: have a ministry in their life. Now, having said that,
S4: as we come to the end of our time on
S4: this program, what are some of the things that you
S4: tell people who are about to walk through this with
S4: a loved one? What in closing, what would you say
S4: to them?
S1: Those days of walking toward the end are such a
S1: such a blur. And yet, um, they are an experience
S1: of being carried along by God, um, of knowing a
S1: Savior who went through death and didn't skip any parts
S1: of it, went through the fullness of it for the
S1: joy set before him. So we get to walk with him.
S1: We get to be carried and held by him. We
S1: get to experience him uniquely. And so I would want
S1: them to show up for that process in their own life.
S1: I would want them to show up with great hope
S1: for what God can do in the life of that
S1: loved one, whether they trust in Christ or not, that
S1: that is a place we want to be. You know,
S1: when God says in Psalm 23, uh, that he will
S1: be with us in the valley of the shadow of death,
S1: then that's a really valuable place. That's a place that
S1: we want to spend time with others and with the Lord.
S1: And I would say, don't forget to like, eat and
S1: sleep are the main, uh, grief. And that process is
S1: so embodied and it is so wearisome. And so while
S1: you're being carried along, um, let Christ care for you
S1: often through his, his body, the church, you know, let
S1: people bring you meals, let people do your laundry. Uh,
S1: let people take your kids. You know, let take that
S1: space that you need. Because when you when you feel
S1: that restlessness, like, I need to process, I need to sleep,
S1: I need whatever this is, you know, listen to that.
S1: Because it's not self care. It's it's receiving Christ's care
S1: for you that you don't have to perform right now.
S1: He has done the work that needed to be done
S1: for your salvation. He's the one who died after living
S1: a perfect life, and who rose again, and who achieves
S1: our resurrection so we can rest even as we do
S1: the work of walking well with loved ones. We can
S1: rest fully in Christ's finished work, and that is our
S1: hope at the end of their life and the end
S1: of our own.
S4: Well, Whitney, I want to thank you for being with
S4: us today, and thank you for investing time and energy
S4: to write this book. And I think anyone who's listening
S4: today is going to find help in this book. So
S4: thank you. And may God continue to guide you in
S4: your life and your ministry. So thanks again for being
S4: with us.
S1: Thank you so much.
S3: Once again, the title of Whitney Pipkins book is We
S3: Shall All Be Changed How Facing Death with Loved Ones
S3: Transforms Us. We have looked at the website building relationships
S3: with us again, go to building relationships with us.
S4: And next week, a couple on the brink of divorce
S4: tells their story of transformation.
S2: Don't miss Tim and Kathy Bush's story in one week.
S2: Our thanks to Janice backing and Steve Wick for their
S2: work behind the scenes. Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman
S2: is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers,
S2: a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.