1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,000 S1: Be honest with me today. Do you feel a little 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,280 S1: melancholy around this time of year, with all the gatherings 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,040 S1: and celebrations of the festivities and the music and the 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,079 S1: lights and the tinsel and the holly jolly? Is there 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,840 S1: part of you that feels this time of year is 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,760 S1: a little bittersweet? Today at the Radio Backyard Fence, our 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,840 S1: correspondent to holiday melancholy Doctor John Kessler returns. I got 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,959 S1: a copy of his new book, Christmas Travelers. And as 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,240 S1: I went through it, I thought, we need to talk 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:41,120 S1: about this, because in the word melancholy, the last four 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:46,720 S1: letters spell the word holy. And instead of spiking the 12 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,720 S1: struggle or the tension inside you may have today, I 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,279 S1: think it's better to acknowledge it and talk about it. 14 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,320 S1: So that's what we're going to do with the radio 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,040 S1: backyard fence. On a Monday edition of Chris Fabry Live, 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,660 S1: the program from the heart to the heart and for 17 00:01:00,660 --> 00:01:04,580 S1: your melancholy heart. Here's a working definition of that word. 18 00:01:04,819 --> 00:01:11,580 S1: A feeling of pensive sadness, typically with no obvious cause. 19 00:01:12,540 --> 00:01:14,580 S1: Let's get going. First, a thank you to Ryan McConaughey 20 00:01:14,620 --> 00:01:17,620 S1: doing all things technical. Chris is our producer. Lisa is 21 00:01:17,620 --> 00:01:22,100 S1: here too. Josh, standing by for your calls and I 22 00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:24,380 S1: want to thank back fence friends and partners. Many of 23 00:01:24,380 --> 00:01:28,140 S1: you responded already in the first eight days of December, 24 00:01:28,140 --> 00:01:31,180 S1: as I suspected you would. Not only to support this 25 00:01:31,180 --> 00:01:33,300 S1: program with a year end gift. I know you won't 26 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:36,899 S1: do that, but there's also this December. Thank you. That 27 00:01:36,900 --> 00:01:39,540 S1: is going to pay dividends for years to come. It's 28 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:44,260 S1: titled don't miss it. Hosanna in excelsis. Hymns and devotions 29 00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:48,500 S1: for the Christmas Season takes you through 43 hymns. Carols, songs. 30 00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:51,820 S1: Gives you the back story. Tells you who created them. 31 00:01:51,980 --> 00:01:54,380 S1: From angels we have heard on high. To O little 32 00:01:54,380 --> 00:01:58,020 S1: town of Bethlehem. Bethlehem. From what child is this the 33 00:01:58,020 --> 00:02:01,730 S1: first Noel? You will find devotions and stories about those 34 00:02:01,730 --> 00:02:04,730 S1: songs that you love. It even mentions a hymn that 35 00:02:04,730 --> 00:02:08,890 S1: is probably the oldest hymn we have about Christmas. Doctor 36 00:02:08,889 --> 00:02:11,290 S1: Kesler talks about this in his new book. Do you 37 00:02:11,290 --> 00:02:13,770 S1: know what the what the hymn is was written by 38 00:02:13,810 --> 00:02:19,049 S1: Aurelius Clemens Prudentius. This is a legacy. Thank you. You're 39 00:02:19,050 --> 00:02:23,290 S1: going to benefit from it this Christmas. Well, probably we 40 00:02:23,290 --> 00:02:25,850 S1: can't get it to you by this Christmas. We might, 41 00:02:25,850 --> 00:02:29,810 S1: but certainly Christmas 2026 and beyond give a gift of 42 00:02:29,810 --> 00:02:33,050 S1: any size. I'd love to send you this hardbound, beautiful book. 43 00:02:33,730 --> 00:02:42,170 S1: Hosanna in excelsis. 866954 is the number (866) 953-2279. Give a 44 00:02:42,210 --> 00:02:45,089 S1: gift of any size. We'll send it your way. Or 45 00:02:45,090 --> 00:02:48,130 S1: go to Chris. Fabric. Org. Scroll down. You'll see it 46 00:02:48,130 --> 00:02:51,010 S1: right there and how you can support us. And we 47 00:02:51,050 --> 00:02:53,210 S1: do need your support in December. And thank you for 48 00:02:53,210 --> 00:02:59,400 S1: responding Chris. Fabric. Something good always happens when Doctor John 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,519 S1: Kessler joins us at the back fence. And my guess 50 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,200 S1: is that's going to happen again today if you don't 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:09,799 S1: know him. He is an award winning author and retired. Retired, retired. 52 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:11,399 S1: Have you been retired, John? 53 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,119 S2: Yeah, 3 or 4 times. Yes. 54 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:19,280 S1: Retired faculty emeritus of pastoral studies at Moody Bible Institute. 55 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,919 S1: He's the prolific author of a number of books, including, 56 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,359 S1: but not limited to When God Is Silent, A stranger 57 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,119 S1: in the House of God, The Radical Pursuit of Rest, 58 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,960 S1: and The Surprising Grace of disappointment. His podcast is A 59 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:36,680 S1: stranger in the House of God. You can find out 60 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:42,560 S1: more about him at our website, npr.org. Our featured resource today, 61 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:48,240 S1: if you click through today's information is Christmas Travelers Reflections, 62 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:53,280 S1: Essays and Poems for Spiritual Pilgrims. Just out. And you 63 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,700 S1: can see it right there at Chris Fabry live. Deliver. 64 00:03:56,420 --> 00:03:58,660 S1: Doctor Kessler. Welcome back. How you doing today? 65 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:01,660 S2: I'm doing really good, Chris. Very happy to be with you. 66 00:04:02,060 --> 00:04:02,780 S1: Same here. 67 00:04:02,820 --> 00:04:04,900 S2: I'm feeling melancholy at all. No. 68 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:07,340 S1: Well. We're going. To get you there. 69 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:08,140 S2: Uh, yeah. 70 00:04:08,180 --> 00:04:10,020 S1: Here's a way to. Here's a way to start. That 71 00:04:10,020 --> 00:04:12,700 S1: is you've dedicated this to. Your mom and I want 72 00:04:12,740 --> 00:04:15,420 S1: to read what the dedication says for my mother, who 73 00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:19,180 S1: thought every Christmas tree. We decorated was the most beautiful 74 00:04:19,180 --> 00:04:21,979 S1: one she had ever seen. Tell me why you wrote that. 75 00:04:22,740 --> 00:04:25,900 S2: Oh, because that's what she always said, you know, and, uh, she. 76 00:04:26,020 --> 00:04:29,020 S2: I was fairly young when she passed away. I was 77 00:04:29,020 --> 00:04:32,539 S2: in my teens, and, uh, so every Christmas, you know, 78 00:04:32,540 --> 00:04:34,300 S2: and of course, it was back in the days when 79 00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:37,020 S2: you had to get, like, uh, trees where the needles 80 00:04:37,020 --> 00:04:39,940 S2: would all fall on the floor, and we didn't have 81 00:04:39,940 --> 00:04:43,180 S2: a tree stand. We'd put it in a bucket with rocks. 82 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:46,140 S2: It's not like my parents, you know, telling me about 83 00:04:46,140 --> 00:04:48,460 S2: the old days. We put in a bucket with rocks 84 00:04:48,460 --> 00:04:51,860 S2: that we got from the backyard, and, uh, you know, 85 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:54,840 S2: we would. Of course, we would just just hurl the 86 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,520 S2: tinsel all over it and. And afterwards we'd stand back 87 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,680 S2: and look at it, and she and she would say 88 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,919 S2: every year she'd say, it's the most beautiful tree I 89 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,800 S2: have ever seen. So, yeah, I think of her every 90 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,840 S2: year when we decorate the tree. 91 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,120 S1: Well, and you've just touched on it right there that 92 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:19,400 S1: that feeling. Because the Christmas remembering your mom who passed 93 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,920 S1: away when you were a teenager. That is that this 94 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,760 S1: psychic event that comes back to you whether you want 95 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,240 S1: it to or not, it comes back every year, doesn't it? 96 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,919 S2: Right. And she actually she really started to get sick. The, 97 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,200 S2: the the condition that eventually took her life really set 98 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:42,000 S2: in right around the holidays. So that that last Christmas 99 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,120 S2: she couldn't go. And with us, you know, to pick 100 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,839 S2: out the tree. And so, um, you know, that's I 101 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,750 S2: think everybody's got stories like that. You know, it's, uh, I. 102 00:05:53,990 --> 00:05:56,590 S2: When I was thinking about the whole subject, you know, 103 00:05:56,630 --> 00:06:01,429 S2: I it occurred to me the genius of Charles Dickens 104 00:06:01,430 --> 00:06:06,429 S2: in his Christmas carol, of having the first ghost be 105 00:06:06,630 --> 00:06:10,789 S2: the ghost of Christmas Past. You know, he's like he. 106 00:06:11,110 --> 00:06:13,990 S2: In fact, it's not just, uh, when you read what 107 00:06:14,029 --> 00:06:18,270 S2: he has there, the ghost appears to Scrooge. And, you know, 108 00:06:18,310 --> 00:06:21,789 S2: Scrooge says, who and what are you? And the ghost says, 109 00:06:21,790 --> 00:06:26,990 S2: I am the ghost of Christmas past. Long past. Inquired Scrooge, 110 00:06:27,029 --> 00:06:33,710 S2: observant of its dwarfish stature. No. Your past. There it is. Right. 111 00:06:34,430 --> 00:06:37,990 S2: You know that there are. So I understand as Christians, 112 00:06:37,990 --> 00:06:41,150 S2: what we're celebrating when it comes to Christmas is we're 113 00:06:41,150 --> 00:06:45,109 S2: celebrating a historic event that is, you know, it's anchored 114 00:06:45,110 --> 00:06:48,710 S2: in the past. But in terms of our experience and 115 00:06:48,710 --> 00:06:52,370 S2: the culture, there is so much of our own pasts, 116 00:06:52,610 --> 00:06:57,849 S2: bound up in the celebration of the season. And just 117 00:06:57,850 --> 00:07:00,090 S2: if you doubt that, just look at your tree. You know, 118 00:07:00,130 --> 00:07:03,650 S2: it's kind of like an archaeologist site there. Just layers 119 00:07:03,650 --> 00:07:07,369 S2: and layers, all the pictures of your children from their 120 00:07:07,370 --> 00:07:11,570 S2: first Christmas to, you know, whatever, you know, whatever the 121 00:07:11,570 --> 00:07:15,330 S2: current age is and all the little ornaments that somebody 122 00:07:15,330 --> 00:07:20,090 S2: made and the things that were handed down to you. So, um, 123 00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:23,850 S2: we it's really not in terms of, again, I'm talking 124 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:26,050 S2: I'm not talking theological here. I'm talking about in terms 125 00:07:26,050 --> 00:07:28,930 S2: of our own experience, it's very hard to pull out 126 00:07:29,410 --> 00:07:33,690 S2: our own past from the celebration of the Christmas. And 127 00:07:33,690 --> 00:07:38,770 S2: so along with that are all those deep fissures of, uh, 128 00:07:39,130 --> 00:07:41,930 S2: certainly the high points and the joy, but also the 129 00:07:41,930 --> 00:07:45,369 S2: low points, the sorrow and the trauma that is bound 130 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:47,610 S2: up with that. And for some people, of course, the 131 00:07:47,610 --> 00:07:51,280 S2: more traumatic, the more haunting the season is. 132 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,120 S1: You've touched on a couple of nerves that I want 133 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,720 S1: to get to, but we don't have enough time to 134 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,120 S1: to unpack them here in this break. So let me 135 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,400 S1: before the break. So let me take a quick break. 136 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,760 S1: Come back with Doctor John Kessler. If you go to 137 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:07,080 S1: the website Chris Fabry Live, click through today's information. You 138 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:13,160 S1: will see another gorgeous hardcover book, Christmas Travelers Reflections, Essays 139 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,160 S1: and Poems for Spiritual Pilgrims, our featured resource, Chris Fabry Live. 140 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,560 S1: By the way, if you're playing the home game and 141 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,160 S1: you're still wondering who wrote that hymn, that old hymn, 142 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:40,520 S1: it's of the father's love begotten, uh, that was written 143 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:48,680 S1: by Aurelius Clemens Prudentius. And, uh, somewhere, somewhere way back 144 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,630 S1: there in the four hundreds or whatever it was. Doctor 145 00:08:51,630 --> 00:08:55,709 S1: John Kessler's not that old. He has written Christmas Travelers. 146 00:08:56,070 --> 00:08:57,430 S2: And I feel that. 147 00:08:57,710 --> 00:09:00,709 S1: You can feel it in my bones. And throughout the 148 00:09:00,710 --> 00:09:04,829 S1: book you're talking about that historic event that happened, um, 149 00:09:04,950 --> 00:09:11,670 S1: the unexpected visitor, the angel, Mary, Joseph, Simeon, all of 150 00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:14,670 S1: these different people. But about a middle of the way 151 00:09:14,670 --> 00:09:17,950 S1: through the book, you get to Dickens and you just 152 00:09:17,950 --> 00:09:21,790 S1: mentioned the Ghost of Christmas Past. You know, it's your past. 153 00:09:21,830 --> 00:09:25,110 S1: I remember Scrooge going back and standing in the in 154 00:09:25,150 --> 00:09:28,830 S1: the school room and seeing him, and then seeing Fezziwig 155 00:09:28,830 --> 00:09:31,790 S1: and seeing, you know, the parties. It's like, oh, it 156 00:09:31,790 --> 00:09:34,630 S1: wasn't he. He didn't see it back then how great 157 00:09:34,630 --> 00:09:37,750 S1: it was. But then he could see it looking back. 158 00:09:38,270 --> 00:09:41,110 S1: And one of the struggles that I've always had with 159 00:09:41,110 --> 00:09:45,429 S1: Dickens is that it's he does have some religious or 160 00:09:45,429 --> 00:09:51,130 S1: Christian imagery throughout the story. There's some deep images there, 161 00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:54,410 S1: but it's almost like Scrooge pulled himself up by his bootstraps. 162 00:09:54,410 --> 00:09:59,050 S1: He took the the the idea. The season of Christmas 163 00:09:59,090 --> 00:10:02,490 S1: kind of changed him, and he was true to his word. 164 00:10:02,490 --> 00:10:04,690 S1: And every year he was, you know, and he helped 165 00:10:04,690 --> 00:10:09,090 S1: Tiny Tim. He'll like this season of Christmas can heal 166 00:10:09,130 --> 00:10:13,650 S1: us on the inside. And that provides me a longing 167 00:10:13,650 --> 00:10:16,410 S1: because I've never been able to heal myself, you know, 168 00:10:16,730 --> 00:10:18,449 S1: through the season. Talk about that. 169 00:10:19,170 --> 00:10:21,290 S2: Yeah. And I don't know if I can speak for 170 00:10:21,290 --> 00:10:24,610 S2: the culture as a whole, but but I have a 171 00:10:24,610 --> 00:10:30,610 S2: suspicion that you really can't understate the influence of Charles 172 00:10:30,610 --> 00:10:37,290 S2: Dickens on our whole idea of what Christmas as a 173 00:10:37,290 --> 00:10:39,969 S2: season is, you know? And I'm when I'm talking about it, 174 00:10:39,970 --> 00:10:43,809 S2: I'm I'm distinguishing Christmas from the event, the Nativity of 175 00:10:43,809 --> 00:10:48,630 S2: Christ from this season of the year, which is usually 176 00:10:48,630 --> 00:10:50,670 S2: when we look at all of the trappings and the 177 00:10:50,670 --> 00:10:54,750 S2: music and and also our expectations. They are really bound 178 00:10:54,750 --> 00:10:57,630 S2: up in the season and the message. I think the 179 00:10:57,630 --> 00:11:01,870 S2: message of A Christmas Carol in Charles Dickens is that 180 00:11:01,870 --> 00:11:06,230 S2: the season itself is healing, and that it has the 181 00:11:06,230 --> 00:11:10,950 S2: power to. It has the power to transform. It has 182 00:11:10,950 --> 00:11:15,630 S2: the power to heal the past. And if I'm just 183 00:11:15,630 --> 00:11:18,790 S2: going to put it bluntly, that's a lie. The season 184 00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:24,790 S2: can't do it. Christ can. Christ can transform us. And 185 00:11:24,990 --> 00:11:27,790 S2: he has an effect on the past, but it's far 186 00:11:27,790 --> 00:11:33,390 S2: more complex than the way that Dickens, uh, sort of 187 00:11:33,429 --> 00:11:36,790 S2: portrays it in that, you know that. I mean, that's 188 00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:39,510 S2: the mysterious thing about the coming of Christ that he 189 00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:43,190 S2: and this, to me, is the hope of the season. Jesus, 190 00:11:43,390 --> 00:11:48,060 S2: the Christmas as an event is that Jesus Christ entered 191 00:11:48,059 --> 00:11:52,580 S2: into not only entered into the broken world, he entered 192 00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:56,179 S2: into the brokenness of the world by taking on a 193 00:11:56,179 --> 00:12:02,700 S2: human nature and submitting to death on the cross for sinners. 194 00:12:03,220 --> 00:12:06,740 S2: And as a result of that, he puts something in 195 00:12:06,740 --> 00:12:13,459 S2: motion that transforms the broken world, will eventually recreate it, 196 00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:16,300 S2: and will draw all of our those those who believe 197 00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:19,620 S2: will draw their past into it. But in terms of 198 00:12:19,660 --> 00:12:23,100 S2: the present experience that we have now that we're, you know, 199 00:12:23,140 --> 00:12:27,140 S2: we're waiting as all of that is being worked out. Uh, 200 00:12:27,179 --> 00:12:30,100 S2: there's still plenty of evidence, and that's where the tension 201 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:33,820 S2: comes from. You know, so but this idea that the 202 00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:39,780 S2: season itself is what changes us. And so Christmas comes 203 00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:42,980 S2: and the hard man has a soft heart. And the, 204 00:12:43,179 --> 00:12:48,320 S2: you know, the miser becomes generous and the the prodigal 205 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,600 S2: comes home. And, you know, we have all of these 206 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:56,240 S2: really fantasies that are bound up with our own expectations. 207 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,760 S2: And then we get disappointed because, you know, it doesn't 208 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,599 S2: the story doesn't turn out that way. Yes. 209 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,480 S1: What do you say about the word melancholy, then? And 210 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:13,240 S1: that's one of the things that and that bittersweet that 211 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,720 S1: is this year. Do you do you this time of year? 212 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:16,800 S1: Do you agree with that? 213 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,839 S2: Yes. I think, you know, I think there's a I 214 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,000 S2: think it's but I think it's a little more subtle. 215 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,920 S2: You know, there is a, there is a kind of 216 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:33,199 S2: longing that we experience. And it goes kind of in 217 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:38,160 S2: two directions. Number one, it is a longing for the past. Right? 218 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,480 S2: We're looking back because so much of this is remembrance 219 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,310 S2: of Christmas past and not just remembrance of what actually happened. 220 00:13:46,309 --> 00:13:50,910 S2: In fact, probably not even really remembering what actually happened, 221 00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:54,390 S2: but dealing with our reflection on what happened, which is 222 00:13:54,390 --> 00:13:59,790 S2: not the same thing that we have a tendency to reconfigure, uh, 223 00:14:00,230 --> 00:14:04,270 S2: the events that we recall so that over time the 224 00:14:04,309 --> 00:14:08,990 S2: sharp edges get dulled, you know, and it's kind of like, uh, 225 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:11,550 S2: you know, that soft light that so many of these 226 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:14,709 S2: hallmark movies are filmed in. You know, that's the way 227 00:14:14,750 --> 00:14:19,270 S2: our past looks to us. And so, so there is 228 00:14:19,310 --> 00:14:24,030 S2: a sense of longing for a past that actually did 229 00:14:24,030 --> 00:14:28,150 S2: not happen. You know, it's something in our minds that 230 00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:31,950 S2: has been sort of reconfigured, but also there is a 231 00:14:31,950 --> 00:14:36,910 S2: desire to change the past. You know, we we reflect 232 00:14:36,910 --> 00:14:42,620 S2: on the disappointments. We reflect on the sorrows, the the losses, 233 00:14:42,660 --> 00:14:46,140 S2: the traumas. And there's a part of us as we're 234 00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:50,780 S2: reworking that in our memory. We're we're actually trying to 235 00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:53,420 S2: heal it. That's one of the things that happens, those 236 00:14:53,420 --> 00:14:55,859 S2: of us who are dwelling on the past so much, 237 00:14:56,060 --> 00:14:57,780 S2: what our minds are trying to do is we're trying 238 00:14:57,780 --> 00:15:01,460 S2: to fix that. And of course, it can't happen. You know, 239 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:04,220 S2: the past is what the past is. You can't really 240 00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:08,780 S2: go back there and repair it. You can only, you know, 241 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:13,900 S2: you can move forward into the hope of grace. And 242 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:19,100 S2: as you do that, what happens? C.S. Lewis talks about this, um, 243 00:15:19,140 --> 00:15:23,260 S2: he he particularly talks about it in, in his, uh, 244 00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:26,900 S2: The Great Divorce, where, where he has this wonderful passage 245 00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:33,460 S2: where he, he describes it as your past being drawn into, uh, 246 00:15:33,460 --> 00:15:37,060 S2: this redemptive work of Christ so that in the end, 247 00:15:37,660 --> 00:15:41,640 S2: the the believer looks back and says, I have only 248 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,440 S2: ever been in heaven. And of course, the person who 249 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,840 S2: has rejected Christ looks back and says, I have only 250 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,920 S2: ever been in hell. And it's not that God somehow 251 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,640 S2: magically goes back and undoes what happened, so that it 252 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,520 S2: happened differently, that he has drawn it into his plan. 253 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,520 S2: And Paul talks about it when he says all things 254 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,280 S2: work together for good. It's only at the end of 255 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,360 S2: the story when redemption is finished and you have this 256 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,520 S2: perspective that you cannot have in this in-between period. You 257 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,400 S2: look at it and you say, now I see exactly 258 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,520 S2: what he was doing, and it was all for my good, 259 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:22,640 S2: all for his glory. 260 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,160 S1: So and the in between, I resonate with that. We 261 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,840 S1: are in the in between. So is it okay if 262 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:37,040 S1: I'm feeling melancholy? Is it okay to have melancholia or 263 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,300 S1: whatever it is? That where it is? It is. Is 264 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:41,900 S1: it okay to be in that state and to admit it? 265 00:16:42,540 --> 00:16:44,980 S2: Yes. In fact, I think it's really I think that's 266 00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:48,700 S2: really an important point that, that we ought to try 267 00:16:48,740 --> 00:16:52,860 S2: to make is that because there is so much pressure 268 00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:55,060 S2: at this time of year to be happy. Right. So 269 00:16:55,060 --> 00:16:57,420 S2: many of the songs, like this one very famous song 270 00:16:57,420 --> 00:17:01,260 S2: that I think everybody who's ever done a Christmas album 271 00:17:01,540 --> 00:17:04,580 S2: calls it, you know, the most wonderful time of the year, 272 00:17:04,619 --> 00:17:09,580 S2: the hap happiest, you know. And so you feel this. 273 00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:15,379 S2: It's kind of cultural pressure to be not just happy 274 00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:20,260 S2: but transcendently happy. And then when in fact, you know, 275 00:17:20,260 --> 00:17:22,700 S2: it captures it for me is one of my favorite 276 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:26,980 S2: Christmas shows is The Charlie Brown Christmas. You remember that 277 00:17:26,980 --> 00:17:29,540 S2: scene where Linus and Charlie Brown are standing at that 278 00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:33,379 S2: wall and they're talking about Christmas, and Charlie Brown complains 279 00:17:33,380 --> 00:17:36,939 S2: Christmas is coming, but I'm not happy. I don't feel 280 00:17:37,090 --> 00:17:40,929 S2: the way I'm supposed to feel. I just don't understand Christmas, 281 00:17:40,930 --> 00:17:43,449 S2: I guess. I, you know, I was, I think I 282 00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:46,490 S2: was 12 years old when I first saw that, and 283 00:17:46,490 --> 00:17:50,090 S2: I immediately resonated with me. It's like, I know exactly 284 00:17:50,090 --> 00:17:53,770 S2: what he's talking about. And it's really only at this 285 00:17:53,770 --> 00:17:56,850 S2: point in my life, as I have reflected on it 286 00:17:56,850 --> 00:18:00,010 S2: and not just reflected on it as a cultural event, 287 00:18:00,010 --> 00:18:04,690 S2: but reflected on it from the point of view, uh, biblically, 288 00:18:04,690 --> 00:18:07,090 S2: of what Christmas is really all about. It occurs to 289 00:18:07,090 --> 00:18:11,169 S2: me that Charlie Brown was asking the wrong question. The 290 00:18:11,170 --> 00:18:14,530 S2: question he's asking is, why don't I feel the way 291 00:18:14,530 --> 00:18:18,290 S2: that I'm supposed to feel, which is happy? The real 292 00:18:18,290 --> 00:18:21,210 S2: question is, why do I feel like I'm supposed to 293 00:18:21,210 --> 00:18:25,530 S2: feel differently to begin with because of the season? You 294 00:18:25,530 --> 00:18:28,209 S2: know what? What is it that gave me the impression 295 00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:34,010 S2: that somehow this season would change something for me, instead 296 00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:38,710 S2: of reflecting Acting on what the event of this that 297 00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:42,350 S2: the season remembers the reality of Christ becoming flesh and 298 00:18:42,350 --> 00:18:45,910 S2: dwelling among us. The fact that he became flesh so 299 00:18:45,910 --> 00:18:49,310 S2: that he could die on the cross. How does that 300 00:18:49,310 --> 00:18:54,390 S2: inform all of these things that are inclined to give 301 00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:58,830 S2: me this sense of either not necessarily not always sorrow, 302 00:18:58,830 --> 00:19:02,550 S2: but sometimes just longing? You know, the desire for a 303 00:19:02,550 --> 00:19:07,350 S2: better world, a desire for an unbroken world, a desire 304 00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:11,230 S2: for the kinds of relationships that I cannot have on 305 00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:15,869 S2: this side of eternity. And so, um, I think that's 306 00:19:15,910 --> 00:19:19,030 S2: so I think it's okay, you know, in fact, I 307 00:19:19,030 --> 00:19:23,550 S2: think it's it's important to recognize that that sense of 308 00:19:23,550 --> 00:19:27,870 S2: melancholy is a normal state of being on this side 309 00:19:27,869 --> 00:19:31,750 S2: of eternity. It is a signpost that is helping us 310 00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:35,340 S2: to put our face forward and look into hope. 311 00:19:36,420 --> 00:19:40,220 S1: Giving us permission. That's Doctor John Kessler giving us permission 312 00:19:40,220 --> 00:19:43,020 S1: to be melancholy. Today at the Radio Backyard Fence, our 313 00:19:43,020 --> 00:19:47,060 S1: featured resource is his book Christmas Travelers. And he makes 314 00:19:47,060 --> 00:19:48,939 S1: the point in here that, you know, a lot of 315 00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:52,180 S1: people travel at Christmas time. And a lot of people 316 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:56,660 S1: in the biblical story were traveling Mary and Joseph. But 317 00:19:56,660 --> 00:20:00,619 S1: the one who traveled the furthest himself was Jesus. We 318 00:20:00,619 --> 00:20:03,500 S1: could talk about that, but the book is our featured resource. 319 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:09,300 S1: Click through today's information right there at. That original then 320 00:20:09,460 --> 00:20:15,260 S1: the true Christmas story, the incarnation. You see a lot 321 00:20:15,260 --> 00:20:18,500 S1: of this same thing. You hear the the silence of God. 322 00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:22,780 S1: You know, for hundreds of years before this, you you 323 00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:26,580 S1: have Mary pondering these things in her heart at someplace 324 00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:31,460 S1: early in this in the text there. And you have 325 00:20:32,020 --> 00:20:36,280 S1: a sense of tension with also, and I'm kind of 326 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,200 S1: skipping around or moving fast forwarding, uh, some months or 327 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,080 S1: years to the slaughter of the innocents and Herod. So 328 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,600 S1: you've got, you've got death and and cataclysm. Uh, for, 329 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,040 S1: for some people in this story, you've got the sojourn, 330 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,560 S1: you're running into Egypt to try to flee this whole thing. 331 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,399 S1: It is not a Currier and Ives. It's not a 332 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,119 S1: hallmark story, is it? 333 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,800 S2: Not at all. And I think that's where that's one 334 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:10,240 S2: of the comforting, uh, realities that scripture gives us, that 335 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,880 S2: Christmas as a season does not have the power to 336 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,720 S2: suspend the regular order, or what we might actually call 337 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,560 S2: the disorder of the fallen world. You see that in 338 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,960 S2: the story itself, right? There are miraculous events that are 339 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:34,470 S2: taking place. There are signs, but simultaneously with those remarkable events, 340 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:38,030 S2: you see all the ordinary functions of the world along 341 00:21:38,030 --> 00:21:42,270 S2: with its failings. And you see that in the nativity story, 342 00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:48,710 S2: taxes have to be paid. Governments rule, but inequitably inequitably. 343 00:21:49,109 --> 00:21:52,310 S2: You know, Joseph's working as a carpenter. The inn is 344 00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:55,990 S2: so full that there's no room. The religious leaders who 345 00:21:55,990 --> 00:22:00,270 S2: should know what's happening, they they don't understand what's going on. 346 00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:05,510 S2: So the world is invested in a certain way, but 347 00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:09,790 S2: it is not with magic. It is visited by God 348 00:22:10,150 --> 00:22:13,950 S2: who has come in the form of a child. And 349 00:22:13,950 --> 00:22:18,750 S2: it is true that there's going to be this miraculous transformation. 350 00:22:18,750 --> 00:22:22,350 S2: That is, the world is going to be remade, but 351 00:22:22,350 --> 00:22:27,070 S2: that happens in the future before that takes place. Christ 352 00:22:27,070 --> 00:22:31,379 S2: must be rejected. He must die on the cross. He 353 00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:35,460 S2: must rise from the dead. And then there's this in-between 354 00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:39,660 S2: period that we are in the heart of where we 355 00:22:39,660 --> 00:22:44,740 S2: are still waiting. We have received redemption, and we are 356 00:22:44,740 --> 00:22:48,300 S2: waiting for the fullness of redemption. In a sense that's, 357 00:22:48,340 --> 00:22:50,820 S2: you know, it's the whole advent story, isn't it? Isn't 358 00:22:50,820 --> 00:22:52,780 S2: that really what advent is all about? 359 00:22:53,619 --> 00:22:54,300 S3: Yeah, it is. 360 00:22:54,740 --> 00:22:58,859 S1: Absolutely. And and then the depth that that can take 361 00:22:58,859 --> 00:23:03,220 S1: you to, to see that this was not plan B, 362 00:23:04,140 --> 00:23:08,459 S1: this was plan A and the and then the angelic beings, 363 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:13,180 S1: you know, proclaiming this to the shepherds on the hillside. Uh, 364 00:23:13,180 --> 00:23:15,820 S1: I was just thinking about this this morning, that it 365 00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:20,180 S1: was almost like God couldn't stay silent or you could 366 00:23:20,180 --> 00:23:25,419 S1: not silence those heavenly beings. They were so overjoyed at 367 00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:28,100 S1: what was going on. It's like, I gotta tell, you know, 368 00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:31,040 S1: here's some good news. You got to tell somebody. That's 369 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,440 S1: what they were doing there. Uh, to assuage some of 370 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,680 S1: that longing for them, but also for people of Earth. 371 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,359 S2: Yeah. You know, the amazing thing is, though, is as 372 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:49,040 S2: that story unfolds, that news is declared in what seems 373 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,920 S2: to be all the wrong places. Right? You know, it's 374 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,000 S2: out in the field to these shepherds. And when it 375 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,600 S2: comes to the people you think would be the first 376 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,920 S2: ones to hear it, the king, you know, the rulers 377 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,840 S2: and the religious leaders, they hear it second hand. They 378 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,680 S2: they only learn about it when the wise men show up. 379 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:16,560 S2: So God's doing this very mysterious thing that is this 380 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,680 S2: theme that runs through Jesus whole ministry. The the secretiveness 381 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,000 S2: of it, the surprise of it. He shows up not 382 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,660 S2: only when he seems to be unexpected. Even though, you know, 383 00:24:30,660 --> 00:24:34,340 S2: everybody's been waiting and waiting and longing for him, but 384 00:24:34,340 --> 00:24:38,699 S2: in such an unexpected way that he is unrecognizable to 385 00:24:38,740 --> 00:24:42,460 S2: the people who have been waiting for him. So it's 386 00:24:42,859 --> 00:24:46,820 S2: such a it's such a remarkable thing. And that's where, 387 00:24:47,060 --> 00:24:48,580 S2: you know, I was thinking, as we were as I 388 00:24:48,580 --> 00:24:51,460 S2: was sort of preparing to talk about this, it occurred 389 00:24:51,460 --> 00:24:55,700 S2: to me that to the listener, it might sound like 390 00:24:55,700 --> 00:25:00,460 S2: my message is really the gospel of lower your expectations. 391 00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:05,179 S2: You know, it's like, you know, Christmas just it's just 392 00:25:05,180 --> 00:25:08,780 S2: forget about it. You know, that is not my message 393 00:25:09,180 --> 00:25:11,660 S2: at all. In fact, I think it's the opposite. I 394 00:25:11,660 --> 00:25:16,820 S2: think that it is the great hope of Christmas is 395 00:25:16,820 --> 00:25:21,340 S2: that of the incarnation, that that's you know, what I'm 396 00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:26,220 S2: saying is let's, uh. I'm not saying forget about our past. 397 00:25:26,290 --> 00:25:30,570 S2: I'm not saying forget about all the wonderful memories, but 398 00:25:30,890 --> 00:25:33,770 S2: set your hope on the reality of incarnation. 399 00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:40,450 S1: That is deep weeds. We'd gone there with Doctor John Kessler. Today. 400 00:25:40,450 --> 00:25:43,609 S1: I'm going to open the phone lines. Have any melancholy? 401 00:25:43,609 --> 00:25:45,570 S1: Are you working through the same thing? Am I the 402 00:25:45,570 --> 00:26:07,570 S1: only one? (877) 548-3675. Have a melancholy Christmas today on Chris 403 00:26:07,609 --> 00:26:11,010 S1: Fabry live. Doctor John Kessler is with us. Christmas Travelers 404 00:26:11,010 --> 00:26:14,889 S1: is our featured resource. Excellent book. It actually has some 405 00:26:14,890 --> 00:26:18,970 S1: poetry by Doctor Kessler in it and we have it 406 00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:22,330 S1: at Chris Fabry. Org click through today's information. You'll see 407 00:26:22,330 --> 00:26:25,190 S1: it right there. But I was thinking about this I 408 00:26:25,230 --> 00:26:28,430 S1: was a teenager, sitting by the tree, looking at the lights, 409 00:26:28,869 --> 00:26:33,630 S1: feeling this ache, feeling this longing. And maybe it was, 410 00:26:33,670 --> 00:26:35,630 S1: you know, because of some girl I wanted to like 411 00:26:35,630 --> 00:26:40,109 S1: me who didn't. Um. Maybe it was, you know, some 412 00:26:40,109 --> 00:26:45,070 S1: loss accentuated at Christmas because that often happens. I think 413 00:26:45,070 --> 00:26:48,389 S1: it was partly my father's melancholy, though. I didn't I 414 00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:51,750 S1: couldn't put my finger on it then. But each year 415 00:26:52,030 --> 00:26:55,670 S1: there seemed to be this unseen cloud over his life 416 00:26:56,270 --> 00:26:59,909 S1: that I intuited, but I couldn't touch, I didn't know. 417 00:26:59,950 --> 00:27:02,629 S1: I didn't even know to ask him, hey, what's what's up? 418 00:27:03,270 --> 00:27:06,670 S1: And then I learned later that he had lost his 419 00:27:06,670 --> 00:27:10,910 S1: mother on December 25th, when he was about ten years old. 420 00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:15,030 S1: And I think, you know, they talk about the body 421 00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:18,230 S1: keeps the score. I think that happens not only for yourself, 422 00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:21,950 S1: but it happens for others. And all of those unmet 423 00:27:21,950 --> 00:27:24,780 S1: expectations and all of the memories that you were talking 424 00:27:24,780 --> 00:27:28,620 S1: about before, what you wanted life to be and what 425 00:27:28,619 --> 00:27:32,260 S1: it was, and the distance between that and the joy 426 00:27:32,260 --> 00:27:34,500 S1: and the happiness that you want to hang on to, 427 00:27:34,540 --> 00:27:37,139 S1: that slips away. The other part of his story was 428 00:27:37,140 --> 00:27:42,180 S1: he had a little brother who shortly after his mother died, 429 00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:47,379 S1: he died. His his brother Matthew. And so you have 430 00:27:47,380 --> 00:27:53,500 S1: all of that longing of, you know, healing but not coming. 431 00:27:53,820 --> 00:27:57,260 S1: The hopes and fears of all the years. The aging 432 00:27:57,460 --> 00:28:00,580 S1: Doctor Kessler, that you and I are going through the decline, 433 00:28:00,580 --> 00:28:01,260 S1: all the change. 434 00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:03,300 S2: And nobody else has gone through it the way we 435 00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:03,899 S2: have either. 436 00:28:04,060 --> 00:28:07,859 S1: Exactly. Yeah. I hurt my knee last night. It was like, 437 00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:11,500 S1: this is not supposed to happen, but I sense it 438 00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:15,340 S1: more now. Is that is that part of the melancholy 439 00:28:15,340 --> 00:28:17,980 S1: and why does it bubble up in my heart now? 440 00:28:19,140 --> 00:28:22,970 S2: Well, that's what it's so layered, right? Because you're not 441 00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:28,330 S2: only dealing with expectation and also experience, but you're dealing 442 00:28:28,330 --> 00:28:32,730 S2: with this legacy that is been handed down just by 443 00:28:32,730 --> 00:28:39,370 S2: virtue of being in this family system, and particularly for 444 00:28:39,370 --> 00:28:44,410 S2: people of a certain generation where, like I think about 445 00:28:44,410 --> 00:28:48,370 S2: my parents, you know, they were not nearly as vocal 446 00:28:48,370 --> 00:28:54,010 S2: about their past as my generation is, you know, so 447 00:28:54,050 --> 00:28:58,170 S2: that so there's this almost it's like an atmosphere that 448 00:28:58,170 --> 00:29:03,770 S2: permeates and does often seem to kind of boil over 449 00:29:03,770 --> 00:29:10,810 S2: around holidays or special events, family reunions, weddings, things like that. 450 00:29:11,130 --> 00:29:16,210 S2: And as a kid, as a child, you absorb it, 451 00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:19,610 S2: but you don't really know either the source of it 452 00:29:19,610 --> 00:29:24,550 S2: or even Necessarily what it means. And so it often 453 00:29:24,550 --> 00:29:29,430 S2: generates a response, a way of seeing the world, a 454 00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:36,470 S2: way of expecting things that, uh, sometimes later on as you, 455 00:29:36,510 --> 00:29:39,430 S2: as you just described, you know, you get more information 456 00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:42,710 S2: and you say, oh, okay, there it is. Uh, I 457 00:29:42,750 --> 00:29:46,230 S2: understand it, but that doesn't make it go away. So, 458 00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:49,590 S2: you know, when the season rolls around and it doesn't 459 00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:55,510 S2: have to necessarily be, uh, Christmas often it's it's associated, 460 00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:57,750 S2: but I think it's seasonal in the sense it's often 461 00:29:57,750 --> 00:30:01,910 S2: associated with those the times of the year when these 462 00:30:01,910 --> 00:30:07,190 S2: great events take place. Uh, by great, I mean, you know, significant, 463 00:30:07,230 --> 00:30:11,110 S2: really major events take place. And so it starts to 464 00:30:11,150 --> 00:30:14,030 S2: come to the surface and you begin to feel a 465 00:30:14,030 --> 00:30:16,989 S2: certain way and you don't really understand. You begin to 466 00:30:16,990 --> 00:30:19,860 S2: feel kind of, you know, maybe you feel sad, or 467 00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:23,860 S2: maybe you feel expectant, or maybe you feel angry. Um, 468 00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:26,460 S2: and I think a good part of what happens of 469 00:30:26,460 --> 00:30:31,300 S2: living your life getting older, gaining wisdom, is it's a 470 00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:35,860 S2: combination of either understanding those things. And so that you 471 00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:38,740 S2: can doesn't necessarily make you feel any better about it, 472 00:30:38,740 --> 00:30:41,340 S2: but you at least understand it. And also learning how 473 00:30:41,340 --> 00:30:44,180 S2: to dismiss it. You know, I think there are times 474 00:30:44,180 --> 00:30:49,100 S2: when this stuff bubbles up in my heart. Uh, Christmas 475 00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:52,260 S2: for me, for some reason, Christmas is the worst. You know, 476 00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:55,460 S2: I have more anxiety at Christmas time than I do 477 00:30:55,460 --> 00:30:58,180 S2: any other time of the year. And I can feel 478 00:30:58,180 --> 00:31:00,900 S2: it starting once the fall hits. You know, I could. 479 00:31:00,940 --> 00:31:03,060 S2: I feel it starting to build. I was just talking 480 00:31:03,060 --> 00:31:05,180 S2: to my wife, Jane, about it. Uh, you know, I 481 00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:07,620 S2: had a bout of it this weekend. Maybe because. Maybe 482 00:31:07,620 --> 00:31:10,380 S2: because we were going to do this show. And, uh, 483 00:31:10,660 --> 00:31:12,620 S2: you know, I finally get to the point. I just say, 484 00:31:12,660 --> 00:31:16,540 S2: you know. Oh, just forget about it. You know, just stop. 485 00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:21,440 S2: Stop trying to understand it. Go watch TV or something, 486 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:22,520 S2: you know. Yes. 487 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,280 S1: Drown it. Drown it out. 488 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,720 S2: Well, sometimes that's okay. I think, you know, it's like, uh, 489 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,920 S2: there are two extremes, you know, one extreme is to 490 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,160 S2: ignore it or, you know, and suppress it. Uh, the 491 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,480 S2: other is to give it too much life where I'm 492 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,080 S2: just dwelling on it, dwelling on it and and dwelling 493 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,800 S2: on it. Uh, the the other thing I wanted to 494 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,280 S2: point out about it is that mixed in with this, 495 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,360 S2: which I would call, you know, maybe a natural melancholy. 496 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,320 S2: I think there's something else. It is what C.S. Lewis 497 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,760 S2: is talking about in The Weight of Glory, when he 498 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,400 S2: when he talks about nostalgia, he says that it is, 499 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,360 S2: to use his words, it is a desire for our 500 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,360 S2: own far off country, a desire for something that has 501 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,320 S2: never actually appeared in our experience. And James K Smith 502 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,600 S2: says something very similar. He says, we are always on 503 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,140 S2: the way. The Christian life is a refugee spirituality because 504 00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:24,580 S2: we are longing for a home we've never been to. 505 00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:29,300 S2: When it comes to a season like Christmas, these two 506 00:32:29,740 --> 00:32:35,180 S2: impulses meet. You know there is the historical impulse that 507 00:32:35,180 --> 00:32:39,300 S2: comes from the collection of my experiences and my family 508 00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:43,660 S2: history and and all these voices around me telling me 509 00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:46,780 S2: that this should be the happiest time of the year. 510 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:51,219 S2: And then there is that natural, what I'm going to 511 00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:55,940 S2: call a spiritual kind of desire, which we are dealing 512 00:32:55,940 --> 00:33:00,020 S2: with all year round, which is the longing for the 513 00:33:00,020 --> 00:33:04,100 S2: life to come, that we have constant reminders of what 514 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:07,500 S2: I like to think of as signposts that are always 515 00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:12,660 S2: pointing us toward heaven, toward life with ultimate, you know, 516 00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:17,770 S2: eternal life with Christ. And they're always saying Basically not this, 517 00:33:17,930 --> 00:33:24,090 S2: but that. Not here, but there and there. There. It's 518 00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:27,010 S2: like a what the writer of Hebrews talks about, about 519 00:33:27,010 --> 00:33:30,170 S2: the patriarchs who were longing for, you know, it's the 520 00:33:30,170 --> 00:33:34,570 S2: idea of reaching out for something, uh, that they died 521 00:33:34,570 --> 00:33:38,090 S2: in faith not having received the things that were promised 522 00:33:38,130 --> 00:33:42,530 S2: to them. They died in longing. That's the disposition of 523 00:33:42,530 --> 00:33:47,970 S2: faith on this side of eternity. And so, uh, so 524 00:33:48,090 --> 00:33:50,770 S2: to go back to your original question, we should give 525 00:33:50,770 --> 00:33:56,090 S2: ourselves permission to feel that. And also, I think it 526 00:33:56,090 --> 00:34:01,210 S2: is the art of wisdom to learn when to just, uh, 527 00:34:01,530 --> 00:34:04,010 S2: dismiss it, you know, tell it where to get off. 528 00:34:04,050 --> 00:34:06,450 S2: As C.S. Lewis would say, you know, it's like, oh, 529 00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:09,690 S2: go away, you know, oh, you're it's like the ghost, 530 00:34:09,730 --> 00:34:13,370 S2: you know, in, uh, the ghost shows up for me, 531 00:34:13,410 --> 00:34:16,040 S2: you know, the ghost of Christmas Past. He doesn't just 532 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,200 S2: show up on Christmas Eve. He shows up every night 533 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,040 S2: for me. And, you know, every once in a while, 534 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,719 S2: I got to say. Oh, just go away, would you? 535 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:23,760 S2: I'm trying to sleep. 536 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,240 S1: You bit of underdone potato. Is that. 537 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:26,640 S2: Right? 538 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,239 S1: The way he puts it. Okay, so in that chapter, 539 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,960 S1: you says the longing. You say the longing to be 540 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,879 S1: happy is not wrong. Indeed, theologian Joseph Piper, drawing on 541 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,399 S1: the thinking of Thomas Aquinas, has pointed out that we 542 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,960 S1: cannot really help it. It is in our nature. Man 543 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,880 S1: craves by nature, happiness and bliss because it is a 544 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,640 S1: dimension of our nature. This craving is not something we 545 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,200 S1: have learned. Man has not, by his own resolve, set 546 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,000 S1: in motion his desire for happiness. It has not been 547 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:04,480 S1: given to him to desire otherwise. Piper writes, and this 548 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,200 S1: is like a gravitational impulse. We are drawn to it. 549 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,800 S1: And Lewis talks about that, that if we are longing 550 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,299 S1: for this place, that we don't know. Maybe we were 551 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:17,860 S1: built for another place. That's basically what you're saying, right? 552 00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:22,100 S2: Right. Yes. That's the way we're wired. And I think 553 00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:24,419 S2: this is a very different gospel than often the one 554 00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:28,060 S2: that you hear. We're wired for happiness, our destiny. We 555 00:35:28,060 --> 00:35:32,300 S2: were made for eternal happiness. And of course, the storyline 556 00:35:32,340 --> 00:35:36,740 S2: of the Bible is that that sin enters into human experience, 557 00:35:36,780 --> 00:35:42,380 S2: breaks the whole system. And God, not to God's surprise, 558 00:35:42,420 --> 00:35:44,460 S2: you know, that that that was part of that was 559 00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:47,620 S2: in view when he created us all along. Jesus is 560 00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:51,260 S2: the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And so, 561 00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:56,340 S2: you know, all of this is moving toward something that 562 00:35:56,340 --> 00:36:01,060 S2: is coming at us, coming toward us. We're not working 563 00:36:01,060 --> 00:36:03,660 S2: into it. We're not trying to build it with these 564 00:36:03,660 --> 00:36:09,859 S2: human structures. We're not trying to, uh, create an atmosphere 565 00:36:10,140 --> 00:36:13,770 S2: that will cause us to feel it. It's moving toward 566 00:36:13,770 --> 00:36:19,850 S2: us in terms through the redemptive action of God, which 567 00:36:20,690 --> 00:36:26,330 S2: it doesn't. It doesn't begin with, um, it doesn't begin 568 00:36:26,330 --> 00:36:29,450 S2: in the manger. You know, it doesn't begin with the 569 00:36:29,489 --> 00:36:33,330 S2: the the announcement to Mary. But that's the crux. When 570 00:36:33,489 --> 00:36:38,569 S2: Christ comes in the flesh, in order to move to 571 00:36:38,610 --> 00:36:42,650 S2: the cross so that he can come out of the grave, 572 00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:47,770 S2: and then, you know, we're in process, we're in motion. 573 00:36:48,050 --> 00:36:51,810 S2: And that's what that longing, that longing is a reminder 574 00:36:51,810 --> 00:36:56,050 S2: that we are in motion, that we are moving toward 575 00:36:56,330 --> 00:37:00,330 S2: that which is moving in our direction, that comes from God. 576 00:37:00,770 --> 00:37:02,969 S2: And and, you know, the I don't know if that's 577 00:37:03,010 --> 00:37:05,810 S2: way too abstract. I can simplify it. The word for 578 00:37:05,850 --> 00:37:09,690 S2: that is salvation. That's what Christmas is all about. 579 00:37:09,790 --> 00:37:10,509 S3: Yes. 580 00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:13,550 S1: Bingo. Oh. This is. Like I said, this is. These 581 00:37:13,550 --> 00:37:16,029 S1: are deep weeds that we're walking in here, but they're 582 00:37:16,030 --> 00:37:19,830 S1: really good, because the melancholy that you're feeling is something 583 00:37:19,830 --> 00:37:22,350 S1: that you don't have to push away unless you know 584 00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:25,030 S1: you're mired in it. It's something that you can really 585 00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:28,629 S1: enter into and allow and allow you to see what 586 00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:32,270 S1: God has done that we could not do ourselves, that 587 00:37:32,469 --> 00:37:37,989 S1: Jesus died in our place, uh, for sinners. He did 588 00:37:37,989 --> 00:37:41,350 S1: something we could not do for ourselves. Doctor John Kessler 589 00:37:41,350 --> 00:37:43,190 S1: is with us. I'm going to bring Tricia into the 590 00:37:43,190 --> 00:37:45,750 S1: conversation because this was her idea. I'm going to see 591 00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:48,430 S1: how close we're getting to the bull's eye, and we'll 592 00:37:48,430 --> 00:37:50,870 S1: do that straight ahead on Moody Radio. 593 00:38:02,510 --> 00:38:03,470 S4: This is Chris Fabry. 594 00:38:03,469 --> 00:38:06,830 S1: Live on Moody Radio. Hey, Sally in Colorado. I see 595 00:38:06,830 --> 00:38:10,250 S1: a star by your name. You her first gift to 596 00:38:10,290 --> 00:38:12,569 S1: Chris Fabry. Live. You made my day. We're going to 597 00:38:12,570 --> 00:38:15,410 S1: send you a copy of Hosanna in Excelsis hymns and 598 00:38:15,410 --> 00:38:18,930 S1: devotions for the Christmas season. Get in on that here 599 00:38:18,930 --> 00:38:22,609 S1: during the month of December. Just go to Chris Fabry lives. 600 00:38:23,450 --> 00:38:25,890 S1: And if you click through today's information, you'll see the 601 00:38:25,890 --> 00:38:30,609 S1: book by Doctor John Kessler, Christmas Travelers Reflections, Essays and 602 00:38:30,610 --> 00:38:35,850 S1: Poems for Spiritual Pilgrims. So this program was Trish's idea 603 00:38:35,890 --> 00:38:39,930 S1: a long time ago. And she used the word malaise, 604 00:38:40,090 --> 00:38:42,770 S1: which is a really I always think of mayonnaise when that. 605 00:38:42,770 --> 00:38:48,050 S1: But it's not mayonnaise, it's malaise. And what I interpreted 606 00:38:48,050 --> 00:38:52,090 S1: as melancholy. So, Tricia, jump in here. Are we getting 607 00:38:52,090 --> 00:38:54,890 S1: close to what you were hoping for in this program? 608 00:38:55,010 --> 00:38:58,129 S5: Yeah, I think we are. I think, I think when 609 00:38:58,130 --> 00:39:01,130 S5: I came up with the topic, I was feeling a 610 00:39:01,130 --> 00:39:04,290 S5: lot of heavy and I was seeing, um, knowing a 611 00:39:04,330 --> 00:39:06,850 S5: lot of other people dealing with a lot of heavy. 612 00:39:07,090 --> 00:39:10,200 S5: And yet we were coming into this season of Advent 613 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,359 S5: and Season of Christmas, when we're supposed to be happy 614 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,799 S5: or it looks like everyone is happy, I guess. Or 615 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,080 S5: even when historically I have been happy. Um, and then 616 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,680 S5: how do you how do you still have joy? Because 617 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,960 S5: so often we equate joy with happiness. How do you 618 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,120 S5: have joy, even if it's a quiet joy in the 619 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,000 S5: midst of the malaise or the heavy, or these things 620 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,040 S5: that are happening all around you? Like, how do you 621 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,120 S5: still have that inner joy? So that was kind. 622 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,920 S1: Of she's getting older to John. 623 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:44,120 S2: I can tell. 624 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:46,759 S6: These are the things that happened. 625 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,320 S1: Well it is and you've got you've got little kids. 626 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,160 S1: You know, that's the other thing. If you got little kids, 627 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,200 S1: it's like you've got in, uh, in your own home. 628 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,319 S1: You've got all this bubbling joy that is there that's 629 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,000 S1: going to happen. Oh, yeah. But at the same time, 630 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,800 S1: you know, there's somebody going to be, you know, have 631 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,000 S1: have unexpected, oh, I wanted this or I wanted that 632 00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:08,980 S1: or this that this happened and that happened. And and 633 00:40:08,980 --> 00:40:11,020 S1: in the middle of all of that, how do you 634 00:40:11,060 --> 00:40:16,180 S1: maintain joy and keep a good perspective on on it 635 00:40:16,180 --> 00:40:19,820 S1: for your children as well as yourself? Right. Yeah. Tricia. 636 00:40:19,860 --> 00:40:22,940 S5: Yeah. The joy, the joy in the midst of disappointment, 637 00:40:22,940 --> 00:40:25,540 S5: which I think can be the very small, like you're saying, 638 00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:28,500 S5: the present that they didn't get. Or it can be 639 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,700 S5: the disappointment of a relationship that you were hoping would 640 00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:36,140 S5: be different or or, you know, disappointment. There's lots of 641 00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:41,060 S5: sizes of disappointments. And how do we have that deep, 642 00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:43,340 S5: abiding joy in the midst of those? 643 00:40:43,860 --> 00:40:46,100 S1: This is you're talking to the fellow who wrote the 644 00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:50,300 S1: book on disappointment, the surprising grace of disappointment. Yes, yes. 645 00:40:50,340 --> 00:40:50,780 S2: Yeah. 646 00:40:51,060 --> 00:40:52,500 S1: So what do you say to that, John? 647 00:40:52,700 --> 00:40:55,580 S2: Well, one thing I'd say is that I believe that 648 00:40:55,580 --> 00:40:59,380 S2: we have a fundamental misconception when it comes to joy. 649 00:40:59,660 --> 00:41:04,890 S2: Largely because of the rhetoric we hear in Christian circles goals, 650 00:41:05,410 --> 00:41:08,969 S2: often through the music that we sing. That is our conviction. 651 00:41:09,010 --> 00:41:13,130 S2: Our notion is that joy is like this emotional state. And, 652 00:41:13,730 --> 00:41:18,410 S2: you know, we're using the language of happiness and even happiness. 653 00:41:18,730 --> 00:41:21,570 S2: You know, there's a biblical idea of it, which the 654 00:41:21,610 --> 00:41:27,130 S2: biblical term is blessedness when we which is really not 655 00:41:27,170 --> 00:41:32,890 S2: a primarily a, um, emotional element. And I'm not saying 656 00:41:32,890 --> 00:41:36,009 S2: there's no emotion connected with it. So you say, well, 657 00:41:36,010 --> 00:41:38,890 S2: what what is joy? How can we have joy? Joy 658 00:41:38,890 --> 00:41:44,129 S2: is essentially a conviction. It is a conviction about what 659 00:41:44,170 --> 00:41:47,810 S2: God has done, what God is doing, and a certainty 660 00:41:47,810 --> 00:41:50,930 S2: about what he is going to do. And it becomes 661 00:41:50,930 --> 00:41:53,969 S2: that's what becomes the anchor for us, you know, so 662 00:41:54,010 --> 00:41:57,250 S2: that because when you hear these stories that people tell about, like, 663 00:41:57,290 --> 00:42:02,650 S2: you know, in fact, we have a very dear friend who, uh, they're, uh, 664 00:42:02,650 --> 00:42:05,149 S2: we've known them since we were my wife and I 665 00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:08,950 S2: before we were married, and her husband passed away a 666 00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:13,550 S2: few weeks ago, you know, and so. Okay, here she is. 667 00:42:13,590 --> 00:42:17,790 S2: You know, this is her first Christmas without this, this 668 00:42:17,790 --> 00:42:21,550 S2: one that she loves, that she has known for, you know, 669 00:42:22,270 --> 00:42:24,870 S2: most of her life. What is it? What does Joy 670 00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:27,870 S2: look like for her? Well, I can tell you it's not, 671 00:42:27,910 --> 00:42:30,950 S2: you know, giggles and. Oh, I'm. This is so great, 672 00:42:30,989 --> 00:42:34,669 S2: you know, and I'm so glad that this happened. I 673 00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:38,030 S2: think this is probably a season of profound grief for her. 674 00:42:38,030 --> 00:42:42,070 S2: So where's the joy? Well, the joy is in the 675 00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:45,950 S2: in the certainty of what God has done in her 676 00:42:45,950 --> 00:42:49,069 S2: husband's life. She knows where he is and what he's 677 00:42:49,070 --> 00:42:53,310 S2: doing in her life. She knows where she's going, and 678 00:42:53,710 --> 00:42:57,190 S2: the confidence that God will give her the grace and 679 00:42:57,190 --> 00:43:02,580 S2: the strength to abide as she's moving through this season 680 00:43:02,620 --> 00:43:06,219 S2: of difficulty, you know, and again, if you've already brought 681 00:43:06,219 --> 00:43:08,860 S2: this out, Chris, but when you go back to the story, 682 00:43:08,860 --> 00:43:13,860 S2: the original story, you know, the history of Christmas, it's 683 00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:18,420 S2: it's full of this reality. You know, there's it's really 684 00:43:18,420 --> 00:43:23,100 S2: all about, uh, hardship, movement. 685 00:43:23,380 --> 00:43:24,700 S3: Threat, struggle. 686 00:43:24,780 --> 00:43:28,660 S2: Uh, I mean, uh, you know, uh, when we were 687 00:43:28,660 --> 00:43:31,540 S2: talking about in the break, you know, when Tricia was 688 00:43:31,540 --> 00:43:35,020 S2: talking to her children, telling them the Christmas story and 689 00:43:35,020 --> 00:43:39,700 S2: particularly the story about the, uh, you know, the slaughter 690 00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:42,700 S2: of the innocents. And they couldn't believe it, you know, 691 00:43:42,739 --> 00:43:45,739 S2: when they. When they heard it. Is that. Is that real? 692 00:43:46,060 --> 00:43:49,459 S2: You know, and it's not it isn't a fiction. That 693 00:43:49,460 --> 00:43:52,219 S2: is the you know, that's the important thing. And I 694 00:43:52,219 --> 00:43:55,460 S2: think that's the beauty of the Christmas story. The beauty 695 00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:58,819 S2: of the Christmas story is that, again, I'm going to 696 00:43:58,820 --> 00:44:05,810 S2: repeat it that Jesus Christ took humanity upon himself, entered 697 00:44:05,810 --> 00:44:09,210 S2: the broke, not only entered into the broken world, but 698 00:44:09,210 --> 00:44:14,490 S2: entered into the brokenness of the world by being subject 699 00:44:14,489 --> 00:44:19,410 S2: to death, by taking our sin upon him in order 700 00:44:19,410 --> 00:44:24,009 S2: to work this great reversal and and, and to and 701 00:44:24,010 --> 00:44:27,730 S2: he draws all of that that we're wrestling with now, 702 00:44:28,050 --> 00:44:32,650 S2: you know, the disappointment, the sadness, the the very real 703 00:44:32,650 --> 00:44:37,130 S2: grief that we're wrestling with. He draws all of that 704 00:44:37,290 --> 00:44:42,530 S2: with him. And so that so that when, um, C.S. 705 00:44:42,530 --> 00:44:48,730 S2: Lewis describes the, the state of the person in, uh, 706 00:44:48,730 --> 00:44:52,410 S2: the life to come that he looks back and all 707 00:44:52,410 --> 00:44:55,650 S2: he sees is the goodness of God, all he can 708 00:44:55,650 --> 00:45:01,509 S2: see is heaven not to deny the reality. You know, 709 00:45:01,550 --> 00:45:03,150 S2: if you if you question that, all you have to 710 00:45:03,150 --> 00:45:05,430 S2: do is go to the book of revelation and look 711 00:45:05,469 --> 00:45:08,510 S2: at the the martyrs under the altar who are very 712 00:45:08,510 --> 00:45:10,870 S2: aware of what happened to them. And their question is 713 00:45:10,870 --> 00:45:13,710 S2: how long you know how long, Lord, before you deal 714 00:45:13,710 --> 00:45:18,270 S2: with this? But they're still facing forward. They're still looking 715 00:45:18,270 --> 00:45:19,990 S2: in the direction of redemption. 716 00:45:20,910 --> 00:45:24,069 S1: I love that passage in Hebrews. Tricia just reminded me 717 00:45:24,070 --> 00:45:27,469 S1: of it. Jesus, who for the joy set before him 718 00:45:28,110 --> 00:45:31,870 S1: endured the cross. Um, and I think maybe as we've 719 00:45:31,910 --> 00:45:35,950 S1: talked here, this new idea has surfaced for me, John, 720 00:45:35,950 --> 00:45:40,750 S1: and that is perhaps melancholy. There's a difference between discontent 721 00:45:40,750 --> 00:45:44,750 S1: and melancholy. You can be discontented because you didn't, you know, 722 00:45:44,910 --> 00:45:47,509 S1: didn't get what you wanted or the box that you 723 00:45:47,550 --> 00:45:49,190 S1: thought you were going to get. You open it up. 724 00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:51,709 S1: And it's not not what you thought it was going 725 00:45:51,710 --> 00:45:55,989 S1: to be. There's a difference in that discontent and then 726 00:45:55,989 --> 00:46:01,540 S1: the melancholy that we're facing, because the melancholy in a 727 00:46:01,540 --> 00:46:05,460 S1: lot of ways points to empathy. As you were just mentioning, 728 00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:09,420 S1: your friend who lost her spouse, the empathy for those 729 00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:14,100 S1: who aren't having or who are single and want to 730 00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:19,220 S1: be married, or who are alone at Christmas. That empathy 731 00:46:19,219 --> 00:46:23,140 S1: draws us closer to them. And I think closer to 732 00:46:23,180 --> 00:46:26,299 S1: the heart of God in this time. So thanks for 733 00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:28,580 S1: spending the time with us here at the back fence, John. 734 00:46:28,580 --> 00:46:29,660 S1: God bless you, friend. 735 00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:31,820 S2: That's always my pleasure, Chris. 736 00:46:32,420 --> 00:46:38,259 S1: Christmas Travelers Reflections, Essays and Poems for Spiritual Pilgrims is 737 00:46:38,260 --> 00:46:43,020 S1: our featured resource. Chris Fabry Rosie's back tomorrow. Don't miss 738 00:46:43,060 --> 00:46:46,140 S1: it here on Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, 739 00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:48,980 S1: a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.