S1: Oh, looks like it's going to be a little short.
S2: Oh, I thought it was going to be on the green.
S3: Oh, man. Sorry. That's a tough one, Jim.
S2: I'll lay it up in front of the water.
S3: No, no, no. Wait here. Take a mulligan. Oh, really? Yeah.
S3: You deserve it. Put it on the green.
S2: All right. If you insist.
S4: Some people think I'll just sit back and let God
S4: do everything, but. No, we actually have some work to do.
S4: We have some responsibility because, hey, we got ourselves into
S4: this mess and God gets us out, but he helps
S4: us to get out.
S5: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S5: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages.
S5: We'll know anyone who needs a second chance at something,
S5: maybe a mulligan on the fourth hole, maybe a do
S5: over at work, or a little forgiveness from a spouse today.
S5: Some help and hope for those who need help moving
S5: forward after messing up.
S2: That's the title of our featured resource today, and if
S2: you're the one in need of a marriage mulligan or
S2: maybe a parenting do over, don't miss the practical help
S2: that is straight ahead. You'll find our featured resource at
S2: Building relationships.us. Gary, I think this is a really important
S2: topic because at some point in life, we all need forgiveness.
S2: We all will want a second chance. Have you, Gary Chapman,
S2: ever needed a do over?
S6: Oh, no no no, Chris. No, no. I've been perfect. Listen,
S6: I've had to do a lot of do overs in
S6: my marriage in those early years. In fact, you know,
S6: after we finally got things together, I asked Carolyn one day,
S6: I said, honey, when I die, you think you'll ever
S6: get remarried? She said, oh, no I'm not going to
S6: train another one. That's a good answer. Oh, yes, we
S6: all need forgiveness. This is an important topic and I'm
S6: excited about our conversation today.
S2: Well, let me introduce you to Doctor Chris Rappaccini. He's
S2: a speaker, life coach, professor of leadership at Anderson University
S2: in South Carolina. For 11 years, he was professor of
S2: Pastoral studies and preaching at Moody Bible Institute, served in
S2: various pastoral roles throughout the nation as well. His degrees
S2: are from Get This. Gonzaga, the University of Edinburgh, Gordon-conwell
S2: Theological Seminary, and Moody Bible Institute. Our featured resource is
S2: his book Moving Forward after messing up a New Future
S2: with the God of Second Chances. You can find out
S2: more at building relationships.us.
S6: Well, Chris, we're glad to have you. Welcome to Building Relationships.
S4: Gary and Chris, thanks so much for having me. I'm
S4: honored and humbled to be with you all.
S6: Tell me why you wanted to write a book about
S6: second chances. Why is this important for us from your perspective?
S4: Well, Gary, if I can be completely honest, I didn't
S4: want to write a book, as you well know. It
S4: takes a lot of work, hard work to write books,
S4: and I. I'm more of a preacher. Um, when I
S4: was teaching at Moody, I taught preaching classes. I also
S4: pastored a little bit, but at Moody, I was able
S4: to write for Today in The Word, their monthly devotional,
S4: and the theme that they had me write on one
S4: month was titled The God of Second Chances, and we
S4: got a lot of great feedback from people about, um,
S4: you know, just people's stories, their testimonies, and how God
S4: has given them second chances. And my editor said, Chris,
S4: you should see if you could turn this into a book.
S4: And it just so happened at the time that, um,
S4: my family, particularly my brother and I and his relationship
S4: with my mom and others in our family was going
S4: through a crisis, if you will. He needed a second chance.
S4: We needed a second chance as a family. And so
S4: all of those things converged at the same time. And
S4: I just felt the Lord leading me to, yeah, write
S4: a book proposal. And it turned into moving forward after
S4: messing up a new future with the God of second chances.
S6: Yeah, well, you know, sometimes what we're going through is
S6: what we end up writing about. You're exactly right. So
S6: tell us about your your older brother and his reaction
S6: to your father's death. What happened?
S4: Sure. So we we are very close in age. And
S4: when we were teenagers, um, 18 and 19. Really, my
S4: father passed away somewhat suddenly of cancer. So within a
S4: few months, and let's just say we went in our
S4: opposite directions. So I was a freshman at Moody Bible
S4: Institute at the time. And after he died, you know, thankfully,
S4: I was surrounded by other believers, I was able to
S4: grieve and mourn with the help of them professors, through prayer,
S4: through the Word of God, reading Scripture through the local
S4: church that was a part of there in Chicago. My brother,
S4: on the other hand, um, he went to a state school,
S4: and I like to say he majored in college life.
S4: And so he didn't have those those people, those things
S4: to turn to. And he grieved and mourned through drugs
S4: and through alcohol. He eventually dropped out of college and
S4: moved to Colorado, back when Colorado changed their marijuana laws.
S4: And he found his community there. And so we were
S4: when our total separate directions and we even lost touch
S4: a little bit through that time, um, his addiction got worse.
S4: He eventually became homeless. He was very difficult even just
S4: to get Ahold of. And when we could get Ahold
S4: of him, sometimes. We didn't want to get Ahold of
S4: him because he may have been drunk or hung over
S4: and was just mean rude. Or he maybe he was high.
S4: And so he burned a lot of bridges with, particularly
S4: my mother. You know, she who wants to see their
S4: son become a prodigal. Really. And he was off, off
S4: in the distance. And, um, to make a long story short,
S4: then when, you know, fast forward 15 years later and again,
S4: we're not really talking that much. I needed to get
S4: Ahold of him, to let him know that our 94
S4: year old grandmother had passed away, and I couldn't I
S4: couldn't find him, I couldn't his phone was either not
S4: working or, you know, wasn't charged. My mind started to
S4: go to dark places like, well, is he even still alive?
S4: Where could he be? And thankfully though, I got in
S4: touch with the one friend that I knew he had
S4: in Colorado and she let me know that he had
S4: recently been arrested and so in some sense it's a
S4: relief because I knew that he was safe. But on
S4: the other hand, it's like, what a mess he has
S4: got himself into. What do we do now? And that's
S4: really where I pick up in the book is, okay,
S4: how do we move forward together?
S6: Yeah. Did you did you hope during all that time
S6: that your brother would somehow be able to recover and and,
S6: you know, move out of that situation or what were
S6: your thoughts and feelings during that period?
S4: Well, I think I always hoped, but, you know, my
S4: brother was not a believer. And spoiler alert, he still
S4: is not a believer yet. You know, we're still praying
S4: for him. But, you know, I was a pastor at
S4: the time. And so I had hope because of course,
S4: you know, you have hope in the gospel. You have
S4: hope of what Christ can do in people's lives. And
S4: I would see it as a pastor, you know, I'd
S4: see prodigals come home. I'd see marriages restored. Um, you know,
S4: brothers and sisters come back into the fold, and so
S4: you always hope that it happens to yours. The sad
S4: truth is, though, for every one prodigal that does come home,
S4: there's probably 5 or 10 that don't. And so it
S4: was hard to keep that hope and not lose hope.
S4: And I still have hope that he comes home now. Thankfully,
S4: he is doing better. He's not in jail anymore. He
S4: got into rehab and is actually, yeah, doing a lot better.
S4: And our relationship is doing a lot better as well.
S6: Yeah. Yeah. Now today on this program, of course, we're
S6: talking to many people who love someone who has had
S6: or is now addicted to some kind of drugs. What
S6: do you want them to hear in this program today?
S4: Well, I think they need to hear that they're not alone.
S4: I was talking with a friend who does a morning
S4: radio show in Tampa, and they said, just after Easter,
S4: they said, hey, if you have a prodigal son child
S4: Sibling parent. Just text us their name to the radio
S4: station and they said they had thousands of names roll
S4: in that day, that morning. And and it's true too.
S4: You know, after I had told people I was going
S4: to be writing a book about this, it was amazing
S4: how many other stories people shared with me about a
S4: family member that they loved who is a prodigal, but
S4: I hope that they know that one. They're not alone,
S4: and that God is a God of second chances and
S4: that he's not given up on them. And nor should we.
S6: You know, Chris, uh, there are many parents out there
S6: who have family members who are prodigals, not necessarily drugs involved,
S6: but for some reason they're just, you know, have a
S6: fractured relationship with with their prodigal. What do they need
S6: to hear about second chances?
S4: I think they need to hear Here that we also,
S4: as loved ones who are walking with God, have a responsibility,
S4: I think a duty to go after the prodigals as
S4: best we can. Um, one of the stories from the
S4: Bible passage of Scripture, from the Bible that really spoke
S4: to me during this time is of course, and we've
S4: alluded to it is the the story of the prodigal
S4: son in Luke 15. But the interesting thing that I
S4: learned in that passage is it actually is in a
S4: triad or three stories are there that Jesus is telling
S4: to the Pharisees. And just to do a brief overview
S4: of them, the first one, there's a, you know, a shepherd.
S4: He's got 100 sheep. He loses one, he leaves the
S4: 9199 searches for the lost one, finds it, and there's
S4: a lot of rejoicing. And then the next story is
S4: there's a woman. She's got ten coins. She loses one.
S4: She searches for it everywhere. She finds it, and there's
S4: great rejoicing. And then you get to the story of
S4: the prodigal sons, and there's a son, and he goes off,
S4: but nobody goes to search for that son. And if
S4: you're following the theme, the thread of those stories, somebody
S4: was supposed to go off and to search and to
S4: look and to bring that son back. Yet nobody did.
S4: And whose responsibility was it? Whose duty was it? Well,
S4: in that passage that Jesus is alluding to, he's alluding
S4: to that it's the Pharisees job or those who are
S4: walking with God. It's their responsibility to go after the prodigals,
S4: to search for them and do what they can to
S4: bring them home. And yet in that story, nobody does.
S4: The older brother stays home. And that really hit home
S4: with me, because here I am, a Bible college student
S4: in seminary and then a pastor. And what was I
S4: really doing to go after the prodigal? A lot of
S4: it was me just folding my arms, just thinking, okay, well,
S4: I'll just wait till he hits rock bottom and it's
S4: not my responsibility, and I'll wait till he, as the
S4: tech says, comes to his senses. And then we'll see
S4: what happens when he, you know, asks for forgiveness and
S4: returns home. And that's the same attitude that the brother
S4: in the story had. And so what does it mean? Well,
S4: I think it means that for believers that yeah, we
S4: do have a responsibility to do what we can. Now,
S4: we can't do everything, but to do what we can,
S4: to at least leave that door open and to search
S4: for them and to let them know that they are
S4: loved and that love will not stop regardless of how
S4: bad they mess up.
S6: Yeah. Well, let's the person who may be listening and
S6: thinking in their own mind. Wait a minute here. I'm
S6: not the one that did wrong. You know, they're the
S6: one that made all these wrong decisions. And it seems
S6: like you're putting the responsibility on me to to, you know,
S6: try to get them straightened out and and not really
S6: focusing on the problem, which is, you know, what they
S6: decisions they've made. How do you respond to that person?
S4: And I hear that and I remember one day I called, um,
S4: the local Alcoholics Anonymous group in Colorado where my brother was.
S4: I said, hey, my brother, he's an alcoholic. He really
S4: needs to go to your your group. What can I
S4: do to help him? And I remember her words, but
S4: they were so heartbreaking. She told me there's nothing you
S4: can do. It has to be his choice, his decision
S4: to come. And I thought, well, there's got to be
S4: something I can do. But in reality there was very
S4: little I could do at that point. Now, of course,
S4: I could still pray. Um, I could have, I suppose,
S4: had harsher conversations with him of saying, hey, you really
S4: need to do this. You really need to go. I
S4: could have sent him maybe some more materials. I could
S4: have maybe flown out there. I lived in a different
S4: part of the country and visited with him a little
S4: bit more. And so I think there's always things to
S4: do to to go after the prodigals. I mean The
S4: the shepherd in the story. Yeah. He could have just
S4: called out to the lost sheep. The the woman who
S4: lost the coin. Yeah, she could have looked for a
S4: minute and then just said, well, I still got nine
S4: other ones. I can still buy a loaf of bread.
S4: But they didn't. They kept going and they they never stopped.
S4: They kept pursuing because they knew that that coin, that
S4: sheep and the brother, they have value. They have value
S4: to the owner. They have. And so we know that
S4: those prodigals, they have value to God. And so we
S4: also then I think, you know, need to keep going
S4: after them as best we can.
S6: Yeah. If there's a prodigal who's listening to us today,
S6: who has the sense that I've gone too far, God
S6: wouldn't forgive me for all that I've done. And I've just.
S6: There's no way out. There's no way up. What would
S6: you say to that person?
S4: I would say you fall in line with everybody else.
S4: Because here's what I mean by that I've been studying
S4: the scriptures for 2030 years and essentially what it is,
S4: it's a book about people who've messed up and God
S4: has given them a second chance. I mean, start from
S4: the beginning. Adam and Eve, did they mess up? Oh yeah,
S4: they did. And yet, you know, God continued to to
S4: love them. I mean, just go through it, Noah. Yeah.
S4: He messed up. Abraham. Yep, he messed up. David. Yeah,
S4: he messed up several times. The disciples yeah, they definitely
S4: messed up. And yet God continually pursued them, continually brought
S4: them back. Trust me, they committed a lot more sin
S4: than than we did, uh, that any listener did. You
S4: think about Moses. He killed somebody. Um, you know David,
S4: he killed somebody and, you know, had an affair. I mean,
S4: they just the list goes on and on and on.
S4: And that's what the Bible is. It's a book about
S4: people who've messed up, but it's also about a book
S4: of about God who brings people back, who forgives them
S4: and continually loves them no matter what. And that's what
S4: he continues to do for us today as well.
S6: Yeah, yeah. Now, early in the book, you do talk
S6: about the importance of taking responsibility for our actions as individuals. Talk.
S6: Talk more about that.
S4: I had a mentor in seminary. His name is Haddon Robinson,
S4: who would say, in life, you make decisions, and your
S4: decisions make you. And it's true. We have choices in life.
S4: But hey, those choices, those decisions that we make, they
S4: make us as well. And we have a responsibility to
S4: own up to our mistakes, to and to, to face
S4: the consequences. Just like my brother. Right? I mean, he
S4: got arrested and yeah, he still had to face the
S4: consequences of his actions. And unfortunately, it was the judge
S4: who had to humble him and send him into a
S4: rehabilitation center. And he almost got through it. But then
S4: got kicked out. And so then he had to go
S4: face the judge again. Um, and then finally got into
S4: another rehabilitation center. But all that to say is, yeah,
S4: we we have to take responsibility. And he continued, then
S4: in those rehabilitation centers and, um, in those homes that
S4: he was in to fix and heal those broken relationships,
S4: those bridges that he'd burned with me, my mother in particular,
S4: and other family members. So it wasn't just him sitting
S4: back and doing nothing. Some people think I'll just sit
S4: back and let God do everything, but no, we actually
S4: have some work to do. Uh, we have some responsibility because, hey,
S4: we got ourselves into this mess and God gets us out,
S4: but he helps us to get out, is how I
S4: like to think about it.
S6: Mhm. Yeah. What's the difference between, you know having a
S6: problem and having a condition.
S4: Well that's a great question because I think a lot
S4: of times When people look at alcohol, drugs, their spending habits,
S4: their jobs, you know, their their difficulty with their boss
S4: or their spouse, they think, oh, well, that person is
S4: the problem, or alcohol is the problem, or my spending
S4: habits are a problem. Well, that's a problem. But there's
S4: something deeper than the problem, and it's called a condition.
S4: And problems, you know, are, um, a scratch, a cut,
S4: and they heal. Conditions are chronic illnesses, cancer that take
S4: time and effort and a lot of work to overcome
S4: to heal from. And maybe or it's something that you
S4: just live with for a long time. And I think
S4: that's what we need to realize is that we all yeah,
S4: we have problems, but we also have a deeper condition.
S4: And the condition is sin, I like to call it.
S4: It's the sin within. We're all depraved. As Isaiah says,
S4: we are a fallen people. I'm a fallen person in
S4: the midst of fallen people. We are sinful people and
S4: that's our sin condition. But thankfully, through Jesus, God has
S4: made a way that, um, that he can heal us
S4: not just of our problems, but also that deeper issue,
S4: which is our condition.
S6: You know, when people are making some efforts to move
S6: from where they are to a better place, what are
S6: some of the common obstacles that they run into when they're,
S6: you know, trying to get over messing up and and
S6: how do you how do you overcome those obstacles?
S4: Well, I think I'll answer that with a story, if
S4: I may. Um, so when we moved into our house
S4: a couple years ago, I noticed that there was a
S4: brown spot in our upstairs. I have a little office there,
S4: and on the ceiling there's a brown spot on the ceiling.
S4: And it was right next to the the ventilation system.
S4: I thought, oh, it's probably just condensation. Nothing. Nothing major.
S4: So I didn't decide to do anything about it, actually. Well,
S4: I took a picture. I took a picture of it
S4: just now. Just chronicle it. And then, um, a couple
S4: of weeks later, I looked up and I thought, did
S4: that brown spot just get a little bit bigger? And
S4: you would think I would, I don't know, go up
S4: in the attic and investigate. But no, I didn't. I thought, well,
S4: maybe it's just my imagination and it's probably fine. Well, um,
S4: several months pass and there's a terrible rainstorm outside and
S4: it's thunder and lightning, and I'm trying to put the
S4: kids to bed. My wife was out of town, so,
S4: you know, they're scared because of the lightning. It's raining
S4: cats and dogs outside. And I hear something in my office,
S4: and I poke my head in the door. And what
S4: do I see? But it's practically a waterfall coming from
S4: the ceiling onto my desk. And so what do I do? Well,
S4: I run down to the kitchen. I get the biggest
S4: bucket or pot I can find. Bring it there. I
S4: actually go up into the attic and see. Oh, yeah,
S4: it's coming down from the roof. And so I put the,
S4: the bucket or the, the, um, the pot there and,
S4: you know, go to sleep. Now, you would think that
S4: the next day or the day after, I'd get up
S4: in the attic and I'd, you know, fix that or
S4: I'd call somebody, but no, I don't I don't do
S4: anything about it. I, I left the pot there for,
S4: I think, three months and, um, just, I don't know, praying,
S4: hoping that it would fix itself or that it wouldn't rain.
S4: And it wasn't until, like I said, about three months later,
S4: that I saw there was a roofer on my neighbor's house,
S4: and I was outside mowing the lawn. And I thought,
S4: you know what? I should go talk to him. But,
S4: you know, I'm not going to if he's still here
S4: by the end of my mowing the lawn, then I'll
S4: go talk to him. And he was. And to make
S4: a long story short, he eventually came up onto my
S4: roof and said, yeah, you got a big hole up here.
S4: You need to get your this patched up or your
S4: roof replaced. And so I eventually did. Now there's a
S4: word for all of that. And I think it's a
S4: word that we can talk about when it comes to
S4: okay what do we what is the major problems or
S4: issues obstacles that we face. The word for that is denial.
S4: It's denial. I was in denial that there was a
S4: problem with my ceiling, with my roof. I think a
S4: lot of people are in denial that they actually have
S4: an issue going on. And so the first common obstacle
S4: is just being able to say, yes, there is. There
S4: is something going on that needs to be fixed. Things
S4: are not right. Things are not what they should be.
S4: Things are not where God wants me to be. So
S4: it's owning up. It's confessing that it's coming to the
S4: reality of what is really going on. And once we're
S4: able to overcome that obstacle. I think then we still
S4: face an upward journey, but it's one that becomes a
S4: lot more clearer because we know what mountain we're trying
S4: to climb.
S6: Yeah, I think anyone who has interfaced with people who
S6: are going through those kind of difficulties have heard exactly
S6: what you just said. You know? No, no, I don't
S6: really have a drinking problem, you know. No no, no
S6: I don't. No, it's not a problem. Yeah.
S4: That was my brother for, you know, 15, 20 years. No,
S4: I don't have a problem. I don't have a drinking problem.
S4: I have a drug problem. It's like you're homeless. You have.
S4: I mean, you're homeless. You don't have, you know, and
S4: you get drunk every night, like. Yeah, I think there's
S4: something major going on here.
S7: Yeah.
S2: So, Chris, what do you say to the spouse listening.
S2: Who can see in their spouse there's something that's going
S2: on here, and I can't get her, or I can't
S2: get him to see it with your brother. It's like,
S2: you know, the person said there's really nothing you can do.
S2: Is there something that if you're living alongside with that
S2: other person that you can help them see? Or is
S2: there a way that you can do that?
S4: That's a great question, Chris. I almost want to throw
S4: it back to you guys. You guys are the experts on,
S4: at least in the marriage department. Gary, what do you think?
S4: Let me ask you, Gary, what would you how would
S4: you answer that question?
S6: Well, I think there is a place for a spouse
S6: to say to the other spouse, I don't know how
S6: you feel about this situation, but I am gravely concerned
S6: about your well-being. And I've mentioned this to you several times.
S6: You seem to have no interest in it, but I'm
S6: going to ask a friend of mine who deals with
S6: this kind of issues to give us his opinion, and
S6: I want you to go with me because I want
S6: him to hear or her to hear your side, as
S6: well as my side. but I just can't sit here.
S6: I love you too much to sit here and do nothing.
S6: And you can get mad at me for what I'm
S6: telling you. Or you can recognize that it's an act
S6: of love. But I have got to do something because
S6: you're destroying yourself. And you're definitely hurting me in the family.
S6: You know? There's a place for that. It's. It's a
S6: tough love approach, and you never know how they'll respond.
S6: You know, sometimes they'll get real mad at the moment,
S6: and then they calm down and then they agree to
S6: go with you. But at least you're reaching out to
S6: bring in an outside voice to the situation. So it's
S6: just not you that they feel you. Well, you're just
S6: criticizing them. You're just down on me. You just don't
S6: understand me. You know, that sort of thing. That would
S6: be my that would be my response.
S2: That's pretty good, Chris. I'm glad you asked that question.
S4: Well, I like I like what you said, Gary, in
S4: that in saying I love you so.
S8: Much.
S4: Because if you center it on love, if you ground
S4: it in love, then you're coming at it with, um,
S4: an attitude of openness, of humility, of saying, hey, I
S4: want to walk through this with you. I want to
S4: walk this journey with you. And it's because I love you.
S4: And I think that's I think that's really powerful.
S6: You know, Chris, when a person is beginning to work
S6: on things and we know that there has to come
S6: a juncture in which they repent, that is, they turn
S6: away from their part in the behavior and they may even,
S6: you know, reach out to parents or others and say,
S6: you know, I've been wrong. I've done wrong. Will you
S6: please forgive me? And forgiveness, as I understand it, you
S6: can clarify your thought on it is forgiveness is I'm
S6: going to pardon you for what you've done, and I'm
S6: going to remove the barrier that it's created between us
S6: so that we can have a relationship. But are there
S6: situations in which you can forgive a person, but it
S6: won't necessarily lead to. Reconciliation with that person?
S8: I think.
S4: So. Um, I, I don't think we'll ever forget, um,
S4: you know, God might, but I don't think we will
S4: forget the harm that's been done. Yeah, we can extend forgiveness.
S4: We can ask for forgiveness. And it might just take years, though,
S4: to to to be reconciled into. Well, I'll put it
S4: this way. I don't think it's going to be the
S4: same as before, but it will be a renewed relationship.
S4: And I see that in several ways. One is, I
S4: think of just scripturally, Adam and Eve when they sinned
S4: and they were kicked out of the garden. We will
S4: have a renewed relationship with them with with God. Um,
S4: so creation will have a renewed relationship with our creator.
S4: and there will be a new heaven and a new earth,
S4: and we will be have a renewed sense and a
S4: renewed place to be with them and to be with God.
S4: And then same with us as well. I think our
S4: relationships will change, but I'm not saying that all will
S4: be changed and be worse that actually be changed for
S4: the better. Um, and then personally, my own example is, yeah,
S4: I think my brother and I and our relationship, um,
S4: you know, was very, very rocky for many years. And
S4: same with, um, you know, his relationship with my mother.
S4: But now that we've been able to get, you know,
S4: all of our baggage out as best we can, ask
S4: for forgiveness, open up the lines of communication there a
S4: lot better. And they can they can be even become
S4: even better than they are now. And so that's because
S4: we've put effort into it. We've put effort into communicating,
S4: to talking. I think one of the things that was
S4: a big indicator on A mover for my mom and
S4: my brother's relationship was when he was in rehab. One
S4: of the things, one of the practices that he had
S4: to do was to ask for forgiveness, but not just
S4: ask for it over the phone or something like that,
S4: but actually put it in writing and then send it
S4: to the people that you want that you're asking for
S4: forgiveness from. And so he wrote my mother a letter.
S4: In fact, I include it in the book about how
S4: he apologized for what he'd done, how she became a
S4: victim of his addiction, and sometimes he didn't even realize it.
S4: But then but now he does realize it. And so
S4: he continued to ask for forgiveness. And he put it
S4: in writing. And I think for them that that was
S4: a real game changer, because for their relationship to be,
S4: you know, reconciled because it was not just said, but
S4: it was written down and those words were meaningful. Yeah.
S6: Yeah. I like the point you made about forgiveness. Doesn't
S6: remove the memory for the individual or for the family
S6: member that they're relating to the memories there. And even
S6: when we forgive, the memory comes back. And sometimes the pain,
S6: the emotions come back when we remember all that's happened.
S6: Either the person that was guilty, they remember and they
S6: have negative feelings. But so forgiveness is not a feeling.
S6: Forgiveness is a choice. You know, so I really like
S6: that point. And and the other reality is of course,
S6: that there are consequences to to sinful behavior. There's always consequences.
S6: As you mentioned, Adam and Eve, they were taken out
S6: of the garden. And even though God gave them life,
S6: they they were not, you know, back where they were.
S6: So we always are worse, I think, for having sinned.
S6: Which leads me to ask this question, what's the role
S6: that faith or relationship with God plays in the process
S6: of moving forward after we've messed up.
S4: And I think it's crucial. I mean, I know that
S4: people move forward. I know that they can have help
S4: with their, you know, their marital problems, their problems with
S4: their siblings. They can go to counseling and they can,
S4: you know, yeah, I guess they can get on working
S4: terms with other. It can be it can become better
S4: than it is. But I honestly don't know how people
S4: can be fully reconciled with their loved ones if it
S4: wasn't for Christ and what he's done for us on
S4: the cross. I mean, we know forgiveness because he's shown
S4: us forgiveness. We know love because he's shown us love.
S4: We know reconciliation because he has demonstrated that for us,
S4: and he's done that for us. And so if I
S4: think if we want to be truly transformed, if we
S4: want our brokenness to be fully healed, it can only
S4: come through a God who has already done that for us,
S4: and that God is Jesus Christ.
S8: Mhm.
S6: You know, why do you why do you think God
S6: is so forgiving and so willing to give second chances
S6: and third chances?
S4: That's a good question because I don't know. I mean,
S4: I wouldn't be if I was in charge. If I
S4: was God, I might give one opportunity. You know, we
S4: we titled it or the subtitle is A New Future
S4: with the God of Second Chances. But really, he's a
S4: god of multiple chances. You know, maybe if it was me. Yeah,
S4: I might forgive somebody once or twice. But man, after
S4: multiple times, I don't know. But God does. And why
S4: does he do that? Well, I think that's what makes
S4: him God and me, not God. Um, it's part of
S4: his nature. It's part of his DNA. I like to
S4: say part of his divine natural attributes. It's what he does.
S4: It's because he is a god who loves you. I
S4: think of one of the persons in the Bible that
S4: stands out to me the most is the Apostle Peter.
S4: And how, you know, he was like Jesus's best bud.
S4: And yet when Jesus is arrested, he denies him three times.
S4: In fact, Peter thought he was outside of the fold
S4: because Mark at the resurrection, Jesus tells the women, hey,
S4: go tell my disciples. And Peter, it wasn't because Jesus
S4: thought he was outside the fold, because if they would
S4: have just said, hey, go tell the disciples, Peter would
S4: have been like, well, I'm not a disciple anymore because
S4: I denied him three times. But they told the disciples
S4: and Peter, and then in John chapter 21, you know,
S4: some of them, they're back fishing and they're kind of
S4: back to their old life. And then all of a sudden,
S4: Jesus shows up on the shore of of Peter's life.
S4: There's a miraculous catch. And then, you know, Peter Swan
S4: dives into the water, does his best Michael Phelps impression,
S4: and swims as fast as he.
S8: Can.
S4: To the shoreline. And who's waiting there? None other than Jesus.
S4: But there's something else waiting for Peter on the shore.
S4: And the text. John puts this in there. It's a
S4: small detail, but I think it's a huge one, especially
S4: for Peter. It says that Jesus was there. He was
S4: cooking breakfast over a charcoal fire. And the only other
S4: time in the scriptures where the word charcoal fire is
S4: used is when Peter was warming himself outside the courtyards
S4: during his denials of Jesus Christ. And I think that
S4: was a reminder for Peter and for readers in the
S4: Scripture that, hey, Jesus is standing on the shores of
S4: our lives, and he wants us to come back, and
S4: he wants to reinstate us, because shortly after that Jesus says, hey,
S4: after breakfast, Peter, I want to take a walk with you.
S4: We got some work to do. Um, we gotta create
S4: an avenue for a deeper relationship. And with each question
S4: Jesus was giving Peter another chance. Do you love me?
S4: Do you love me? Do you love me? And Peter said, yes,
S4: you know that I love you. You know that I
S4: love you. And so, Peter, then ultimately, the fisherman would retire,
S4: drop his nets, and the follower of Jesus would never
S4: turn back again. So I think no matter how many
S4: times we've turned away from God, he never stops loving
S4: us because that's who he is. He's always standing there
S4: on the shore of our lives, calling us back to him.
S4: He may even want to use our past then to
S4: change other people's future as well.
S6: Yeah. Now you talk about the role of humility after
S6: we failed and we're dealing with it, and we're now
S6: trying to move forward. Talk about the role of humility.
S6: And then you also talk about true and false humility. Uh,
S6: share with us your thoughts on that.
S4: Well, false humility. I don't know about you guys, but
S4: I see that a lot usually on social media Because
S4: if you're wanting to post something about how humble you are,
S4: I question, are we actually being humble.
S8: If we're.
S4: Posting and telling other people about it? I think the, the,
S4: the aspect of humility is, um, you know, doing it
S4: not for praise and applause, but doing it because, hey, I,
S4: I love people, I see value in people. I think
S4: of Philippians two, um, where Paul says, hey, take on
S4: the mind of Christ, and that is put others first.
S4: I had a professor in seminary who would often say,
S4: there's two types of people in the world, not extroverts
S4: and introverts, but there are. Here I am people and
S4: there you are people. Here I am people go into
S4: a crowded room and they say, hey, here I am.
S4: Let me tell you what's going on in my life.
S4: Let me tell you about what's going on in my
S4: business or what I've done lately. There you are. People
S4: come into a room and they see people and they say,
S4: there you are. Hey, how's your marriage going? Hey, there
S4: you are. How's your ministry? How's that project that you're working?
S4: There you are. How are your children doing? Because they
S4: have a genuine concern and interest in other people. And
S4: what Jesus is doing is he's turning. Here I am,
S4: people into there you are people. And I think he
S4: does that by allowing us to practice selflessness, by recognizing that, hey,
S4: we have limitations. You know, we aren't everything. We fall
S4: short in many areas. And we have to admit that.
S4: We have to look at others with true compassion. And
S4: the word compassion means to suffer alongside someone. We hear
S4: of the passion of the Christ, and that's the suffering
S4: of the Christ. Compassion is alongside. And so what we
S4: have to do when we see other people who are grieving,
S4: who are hurting, we suffer alongside them. We have compassion
S4: for them. I think we also true humility is expressing
S4: a genuine gratitude and an open, open mindset and a
S4: willingness to to learn about them, about other things, about
S4: ourselves and of course, about God. I think that's what
S4: true humility is. And if we're going to move forward,
S4: we have to start with finding true humility.
S6: Do you think a part of that humility also is
S6: recognizing that without the help of God, we're probably not
S6: going to be successful? You know that John 15 passage
S6: where Jesus said, without me, you can do nothing? It's
S6: not just self-effort, but humility seems to involve that, that
S6: kind of response to God. What are your thoughts on that?
S4: Exactly, Gary. And I think we have to remember, right?
S4: We've been no matter how old you are. I mean,
S4: you walked with God for years or without God for years.
S4: Some of us maybe walked without God for, you know,
S4: ten years, 15 years. 45 years. We've walked without God.
S4: And then all of a sudden it's like, well, now
S4: I need to become humble and I need to be
S4: like Christ. How do I do that in a weekend
S4: or in a week? Or in a month or in
S4: a year? It takes time. Um, you know, we. And
S4: it takes God to help us in, in those, those
S4: years of recovery, if you will. I mean, we're all
S4: still going through recovery of our sin because we were
S4: born sinful and we can't recover on our own, just
S4: like an alcoholic can't recover on their own, a drug
S4: addict can't recover on their own. We as sinners, we
S4: can't recover on our own. We need help. We need
S4: help from God. Who, um, who can help us take
S4: one step at a time, turning as we turn from
S4: our old sinful ways and continue to well, like Philippians
S4: two says, write, have the mind of Christ. To be
S4: a humble believer, to be a there you are person.
S6: Yeah. Yeah. In the process of recovery, whether it's alcohol
S6: or any other addiction that we might have. Why is
S6: it important to identify potential triggers that can cause you to,
S6: you know, flip back and relapse on whatever you're trying
S6: to get over?
S8: Sure.
S4: It's those triggers that I think are the hardest part.
S4: It's easy to make a decision. First off, say, hey,
S4: I'm just going to stop doing this. I'm going to
S4: stop spending, you know, over our budget. I'm going to stop,
S4: you know, the way that I speak to my wife
S4: and I'm just going to change and, you know, speak
S4: in a more loving manner to her. That's a great
S4: that's a great start. But the reality is then we
S4: get into situations or something happens that boom, we find
S4: ourselves right back where we are. It's like we've we've
S4: fallen again and we need help getting back up. And
S4: so being able to identify the context, the situation, whether
S4: it's the place that we're in, the people we're associated
S4: with when we're you at the store and we see
S4: that thing, we're shopping online, we see that thing. Or,
S4: you know, when our spouse does that or doesn't do that,
S4: we know that, hey, that's going to cause a reaction
S4: out of me. So if we can ahead of time
S4: identify those triggers, then we can be able to, um,
S4: pause and to think through how we're going to handle
S4: those situations so that when they do happen, we can
S4: pause and we can handle them in a godly, loving
S4: manner in a way that we weren't able to before.
S4: But now that we are moving forward and we have
S4: God on our side helping us through that, it can
S4: help to restore those relationships and we can get over
S4: whatever it is that we've been going through.
S6: Do you think it's helpful to for that individual to
S6: actually sit down and think their way through these things?
S6: You know, what are the situations that I'm likely to
S6: be tempted in, in that sort of thing so that
S6: they've got that in their mind ahead of time and
S6: how to avoid that?
S8: I do.
S4: There's the term for that is situation mapping. And for instance, um,
S4: you know, several years ago when the Navy Seals went
S4: to go, you know, capture or kill Osama bin laden,
S4: it's not like they just showed up one day and
S4: they said, okay, I guess he's in there. We'll go.
S4: We'll go do our duty. No, they spent months planning, preparing,
S4: trying to think about any and every situation that would
S4: happen so they could prepare for it so that when
S4: the time came for their number to be called, they
S4: knew exactly what to do. And then if there were
S4: anything that happened out of the ordinary, they could handle
S4: that as well as if you know the story. Things
S4: did happen that were out of the ordinary that weren't
S4: supposed to happen, but because they had planned and had
S4: contingency plans, because they had mapped those situations out in
S4: their minds beforehand, they were able to pull off a
S4: successful mission. And I think it's the same thing with us.
S4: If we can identify those triggers and then visualize and
S4: even have a plan for what's going to happen the
S4: next time somebody I go to a party and they're drinking,
S4: what's going to happen the next time my spouse forgets
S4: to bring the garbage cans in? Right? What am I
S4: going to do in that situation? And then run through
S4: that scenario in your head and map it out so
S4: that you actually have an answer for for the circumstances
S4: of the situation that you find yourself in. And that's
S4: going to I think that's one of the ways, one
S4: of the many ways that we can continue to, to
S4: move forward is to have those, those plans ready.
S6: What advice do you give to the person who feels stuck,
S6: you know, in their past mistakes and and they're just
S6: really struggling to make any step forward?
S8: Well, I.
S4: Think the first step, Gary, is to get with a
S4: supporting network of people There are people out there, believe
S4: it or not, that they want to help. They do.
S4: They genuinely want to help. And we're not meant to
S4: go through life alone. Covid taught us that, right. We're
S4: not meant to be isolated and try to figure everything
S4: out on our own. We're meant to do things with people,
S4: and there's no better way to get through something than
S4: to ask for help from other people. Now that's hard.
S4: It we have to put our pride aside, and we
S4: have to ask and admit that we need help. I
S4: know that's challenging, but that's oftentimes the most difficult thing.
S4: But the the most important thing is to get surrounded
S4: by a great group of people, whether it's a group
S4: from your church or from your community. I think there's
S4: great churches, great ministries out there as well. Um, that
S4: can help. And so I think that's that's one of
S4: the main goals or the main things I think you
S4: have to do is to get with people who are
S4: ready and willing to help because they want to help you.
S6: Yeah. And in terms also of our relationship with God.
S6: What steps can they take, you know, to to renew
S6: that relationship with God?
S4: I think it starts with honesty, and that's with the
S4: support group as well. But we need to be honest
S4: with God. We need to be honest with ourselves and
S4: have an honest conversation with God. He's not an angry father.
S4: He's a loving father. He's not going to punish you.
S4: He's going to forgive you. And so why not start
S4: with an honest conversation with him? And hopefully in that conversation,
S4: that that conversation leads to a repentance or to asking
S4: for forgiveness. And he will. He does. He does it
S4: every day. He's done it for me. He's done it
S4: for you, Gary. He's done it for you, Chris. And
S4: he will do it for everybody. That's who he is.
S4: And so I think having an honest, open conversation with him,
S4: with God, asking for repentance and then helping and then
S4: asking for guidance through the power of the Holy Spirit
S4: to put those people that we need in our paths
S4: over the next several days, so that we can find
S4: the the next step on our journey forward.
S6: Cuz as we come to a close to our program today,
S6: you talk about in the book four steps that an
S6: individual can take to build a new future for themselves.
S6: Just briefly share those.
S8: Sure.
S4: So step one and we just mentioned it. Surround yourself with,
S4: you know, some kind of great support network. I think
S4: that's really important, whether it's Celebrate Recovery, Alcoholics Anonymous, whatever
S4: that may be, get get around people that can support you,
S4: I think. Then step two is to create some own
S4: personal goals, some development plans for you. Where do you
S4: see yourself in the next year? In the next six months,
S4: in the next month? In the next week? And what
S4: are you doing today to help you prepare yourself and
S4: to get to that place where you want to be
S4: next week, next month, in the next six months? So
S4: I think that that's step two. I think then, as
S4: we alluded to as well, is how can you seek
S4: a man's restore those broken relationships, those broken connections with
S4: family members, with friends, maybe with ministry leaders, whether it's
S4: through writing them a letter, sending them a text message,
S4: calling them up, taking them out to lunch. But it's
S4: so important to connect and then to to try to
S4: rebuild those bridges that had been burned and broken down.
S4: And then finally, the last step, and I think this
S4: is crucial too, is share your story with others. I
S4: had a friend who said, God takes our tests and
S4: he turns them into testimonies. He takes our messes and
S4: he turns them into messages, messages of hope for other people.
S4: And they need to hear your story. They need to
S4: hear in your voice what happened and how God has
S4: restored and renewed you so that, and you can use
S4: your story to help somebody else's future because, hey, that's
S4: what ultimately we're here to do, right? We're here to worship,
S4: glorify God and enjoy him forever. And along the way, hey,
S4: tell our story about what God has done because other
S4: people need to hear it, and so that they can
S4: have a story of redemption and hope as well.
S6: Well, Chris, I want to thank you for being with
S6: us today. I mean, this is a pertinent topic in
S6: our day because all of us, all of us fail
S6: from time to time. And and so I think there
S6: are many listeners today, I hope that not only would
S6: they listen to what we've been talking about, but I
S6: hope they'll get the book, because moving forward after messing
S6: up is a really practical book, and I think working
S6: through that can help those of us who are trying
S6: to help others, as well as the person who is
S6: experiencing a failure. So again, thanks for being with us today.
S4: My pleasure. And yeah, the book hopefully will be read
S4: in groups. There's discussion questions, there's a leader's guide. And
S4: that's what it's meant for to anybody who wants to
S4: take their setback and turn it into a comeback. That
S4: this book is for them.
S2: And if you want to find that resource, go to
S2: Building Relationships us. You'll see it right there moving forward
S2: after messing up a new future with the God of
S2: Second Chances, written by Doctor Chris Rappaccini. Find out more
S2: at building relationships.us.
S6: And next week, how to deal with the epidemic of lonely,
S6: hurt men who are hurting themselves and their families.
S5: Here, Doctor Patrick Morley, talk about going from broken boy
S5: to mended man in one week. A big thank you
S5: to our production team. Janice backing and Steve Wick. Building
S5: relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody
S5: Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody
S5: Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.