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S1: Do you feel stuck? Are you in a loop of

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S1: negative thoughts that you know are holding you back, but

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S1: you feel like you can't do anything about it? Today

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S1: on Chris Fabry live practicing neurosurgeon, award winning author, Iraq

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S1: War veteran and fellow struggler doctor Leigh Warren will connect

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S1: neuroscience with faith. His experience after the death of his

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S1: teenage son with disordered thinking, despair, grief, that tragedy gripped

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S1: him and held him and wouldn't let go until he

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S1: learned the life saving art of self brain surgery. You'll

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S1: find out what that means and how you can do

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S1: the same today at the radio backyard fence. Welcome to

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S1: the program. From the heart to the heart for the

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S1: heart online at Chris farrell.org. We start with a thank

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S1: you to our team. Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical.

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S1: Trish is our producer out for spring break with her family.

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S1: Lisa's in the chair. Josh will answer your calls. And

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S1: since it's Friday. That's right, friend, it's time for the

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S1: fabulous favorite Friday. Sigh. Here's what it does. One we

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S1: oxygenate your blood. Two we get your endorphins going. Three

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S1: we raise your serotonin. Level four we promote lymphatic drainage

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S1: and five we stimulate your parasympathetic system. That's why we

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S1: call it the five love languages. We also stimulate your

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S1: vagus nerve. We help you release acetylcholine. And don't you

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S1: dare forget what it does to cortisol dissipation. Take in

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S1: four seconds of air through your nose right now. Hold

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S1: it for seconds. And then as you release that air

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S1: through your mouth, push on the left side of your

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S1: rib cage to get rid of all that bad carbon dioxide.

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S1: Give a sigh today for all things medical, for biopsies

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S1: and scans, for the diagnosis you don't want to hear,

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S1: and the one you do. For general practitioners and specialists,

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S1: for surgeons, the orthopedic surgeon, the thoracic surgeon, pediatric and vascular.

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S1: Give a sigh for the otolaryngologist. Or, if it's easier,

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S1: the ent, the ob gyn, the plastic surgeon and the

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S1: surgical oncologist. Aren't you glad we have access to these people?

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S1: And give a sigh today for the one who designed

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S1: this intricate system of life, and that we are created

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S1: in his image. Fabulous baby Friday sized, brought to you

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S1: by friends of Doctor Leonid Rogozov. All rights reserved. I

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S1: promise you will understand the rogozov mentioned here in just

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S1: a minute. First, this is the last Friday in March.

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S1: Boy howdy. How'd that happen? This is my final Friday

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S1: opportunity to urge and encourage you to support this program.

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S1: From the heart to the heart, for the heart and

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S1: mind and soul. Because our thank you goes right along

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S1: with the topic today. Colleen Chao has met a lot

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S1: of medical professionals in the past few years, some of

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S1: them oncologists. She was diagnosed with a terminal illness. And

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S1: one of the things that our guest today, Doctor Warren,

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S1: has talked about through the years, is what hope does

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S1: for someone with an illness and the hope Colin has

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S1: for what is ahead of her meaning heaven. She wants

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S1: to give to you. So that's why our thank you

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S1: this month has been and will be until the end

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S1: on our way home. It's so encouraging. It's so real.

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S1: It's moving and it's a thank you for only a

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S1: few more days. So call or click through 866953 or

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S1: go to Chris Fabry live.org. We can't do what we

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S1: do without you, so get in touch today, especially if

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S1: you've never done that. This might be a resource that

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S1: you want to pass along to somebody who's going through

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S1: a real rough patch in their life. On our way home,

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S1: call or click through today (866) 953-2279 or go to Chris dot.

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S1: I am a fan of doctor Lee Warren. I have

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S1: been since we talked many moons ago. If you don't

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S1: know him, he's an award winning author, a brain surgeon,

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S1: patent holding inventor, Iraq war veteran. He's the author of

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S1: I've Seen the End of You, which won an Ecpa

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S1: Christian Book Award. Hope is the first dose and no

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S1: place to hide. He hosts the Doctor Lee Warren Podcast,

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S1: which explores the complex interplay between faith and science to

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S1: help people live healthier and happier lives. He and his wife, Lisa,

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S1: have four living children and a growing collection of grandkids,

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S1: and they live in North Platte, Nebraska. Doctor Warren, welcome

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S1: back to the program. How are you doing today.

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S2: Chris? It's so good to see you or hear your

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S2: voice again. And I'm grateful to be back with you

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S2: doing great.

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S1: And your oxygenation, is it up to the right levels

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S1: now that we've done the Friday side?

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S2: Yeah, man, I'm 100%. I'm doing good.

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S1: Off the charts. Okay. All right. So I saw this, uh,

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S1: it came out in February. It's like I've got to

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S1: talk with Doctor Warren because what does he mean by

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S1: the life changing art of self brain surgery? He's connecting

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S1: Neuroscience and faith to radically transform your life. It's like

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S1: you're not selling scalpels along with the book, are you?

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S2: Nope, nope. No scalpels included.

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S1: What are you doing?

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S3: What do you mean?

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S1: What's this all about?

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S2: So the title came out of an experience that we had.

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S2: And you and I have talked several times before. Our

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S2: story includes the loss of our son Mitchell, who died

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S2: in 2013. And when Mitch died, we lived in Auburn,

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S2: Alabama at the time, and my wife, Lisa ran our

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S2: practice and I was a practicing neurosurgeon there. And our

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S2: office was on the third floor of a building at

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S2: Auburn University, where they do a special kind of brain

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S2: MRI research, which is called functional brain imaging. And functional

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S2: imaging is different than normal imaging, where you take a

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S2: scan and see what the organ looks like, but you

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S2: can actually put somebody in this special MRI scanner and

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S2: see what the brain is doing when they're thinking or

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S2: when they're moving or when they're doing something. You see

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S2: what the brain is actually doing in terms of neurotransmitters

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S2: and blood flow and all that. And so the, the

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S2: training I had as a neurosurgeon and traditional neuroscience, and

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S2: I think a lot of people still think this is

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S2: that the brain creates everything about you, including what you

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S2: think of as your mind, your personality, your self, your thoughts.

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S2: All that stuff comes from brain activity in the traditional

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S2: neuroscience way. But, but I was a Christian too, not

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S2: just a brain scientist. And if you think about it,

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S2: most Christians, I think all Christians think that there's a

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S2: part of us that lives after our body dies, right?

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S2: There's some some part of you, you would call it

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S2: soul or mind or heart or some combination of those things,

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S2: as the Bible does that that isn't your brain, right?

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S2: So when you die and your body is in the

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S2: ground and your brain is dead, there's still some part

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S2: of you that's going to live forever. And I had

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S2: never spent two seconds thinking about that, that my training

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S2: said that it was all brain. And my faith said

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S2: that brain and mind are not the same thing. Until

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S2: Mitch died. And when Mitch died, We were obviously grieving

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S2: and bereaved and broken, and I was really mad at God.

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S2: And and you and I have talked about that before. Um,

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S2: and I was really frustrated and sad and hopeless and

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S2: all those things that you do when you lose a child.

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S2: And we went to back to work after about a

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S2: month because we had to and, and we got invited

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S2: a week or so later to go down and watch

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S2: some of this functional MRI research happen. And they put

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S2: this woman in the scanner, Chris. And they said they

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S2: spoke to her through some headphones that she was wearing,

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S2: and they said, Mrs. Johnson, think about the worst thing

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S2: you've ever felt in your life, the worst day you've

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S2: ever had. And you saw her sort of wrinkle up

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S2: her brow and recall whatever that memory was. And then

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S2: we saw her brain react to what she was thinking about,

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S2: and it was lighting up in the areas that are

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S2: related to fear and anger and the amygdala and limbic

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S2: system and all that stuff. That's about fight or flight.

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S2: And then after that part of her brain lit up,

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S2: we saw her vital signs change. Her heart rate went

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S2: up and her blood pressure went up and her respiratory

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S2: rate went up. And we saw her take a thought

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S2: and turn it into brain activity, and we saw that

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S2: turn into something that happened in her body. And then

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S2: they said, okay, now stop thinking about that and start

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S2: thinking about the best memory you can recall, the best

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S2: day of your life, the happiest you've ever felt. And again,

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S2: we saw her brain change in response to what she

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S2: was thinking about. Her frontal lobes came online. The insula, the,

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S2: the the cingulate gyrus, different parts that are related to,

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S2: to happier emotions. And the amygdala calmed down. And then

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S2: her blood pressure and heart rate and respiratory rate came

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S2: down and we saw it again. This, this thought became

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S2: brain activity that became body activity. And Lisa said, hey, that's,

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S2: that's like Philippians four. And I said, what do you mean?

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S2: And she said, well, it says, don't be anxious for anything.

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S2: But in everything with thanksgiving, present your requests to God,

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S2: and then you'll be filled with peace. And we saw

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S2: that thinking about something different changed what your brain did.

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S2: And then I just had this, this crystal clear like

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S2: moment where the Lord ministered to me a little bit

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S2: in my broken, bereaved state that he's like, hey, mind

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S2: and brain are not the same thing. And when you

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S2: do brain surgery, you are intentionally changing somebody's brain on

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S2: a structural level to improve their life. And that's what

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S2: you do when you change from dark thoughts to better thoughts.

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S2: You change your brain structurally in a way that changes

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S2: your life. That's the same thing as surgery. And that's

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S2: the moment that I came up with this idea of,

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S2: you can perform brain surgery on yourself, and it's real.

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S2: And I recognized in that moment that if I was

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S2: ever going to feel better about losing my son, I

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S2: was going to have to think about it differently. And

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S2: that's where I began to try to put science and

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S2: faith together instead of keeping them separate. And that led

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S2: to this, this book ultimately, but for the last 13 years,

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S2: trying to learn how to understand what my brain and

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S2: my mind are doing and how that can be productive

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S2: of hope.

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S1: Wow. You just encapsulated then this the entire book and

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S1: what you've just said, and then you take the book

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S1: to flesh that out and to walk us through that process,

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S1: not using a scalpel, but using our own thoughts. And

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S1: my guess is that somebody who's listening right now, when

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S1: you talked about Mrs. Johnson, they did the same thing

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S1: when you said, think about the worst thing that ever happened,

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S1: the worst day of your life. Take yourself back there.

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S1: I did that when I when you said that I

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S1: went back to that. And it's it did something inside.

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S1: You have this physical reaction as well as you're thinking.

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S1: And then the best day of your life. To me,

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S1: it's hard to it's hard to move that quickly from

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S1: the worst to the best. You know, don't think about

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S1: a pink elephant. And so it's still I'm still on

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S1: the worst day because it's harder to let go of

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S1: the worst stuff and move toward the good. But that's

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S1: what your book is about. So let me take a break.

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S1: We'll come back and I promise we're going to get

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S1: to Doctor Rogozov. Uh, in our next segment, doctor W

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S1: Lee Warren is the author of The Life Changing Art

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S1: of Self Brain surgery. You can find it our featured

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S1: resource at Chris favorite archive.org. Chris Fabry live.org. If you

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S1: have a question (877) 548-3675. Okay, so if you are struggling

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S1: with your emotional health and you want to feel happier,

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S1: if you are dealing with chronic pain or an irreversible

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S1: situation and you want to learn better ways to handle it.

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S1: If you're under a lot of pressure in some part

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S1: of your life and you need a new way to

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S1: manage the stress, or if you feel stuck and you

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S1: need tools to help you get moving again, or you've

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S1: gone through something really hard that made you doubt the

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S1: love of God or his care, and you want to

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S1: find hope and faith again. That's what doctor Lee Warren

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S1: has written about in the life changing Art of brain surgery.

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S1: It's our featured resource. Go to. Chris and I have

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S1: a friend who writes me periodically and says, would you

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S1: pray for me? I've been having this sleep problem for

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S1: a long time, and I thought one of my first

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S1: thoughts was, I wonder if you are having a real trouble.

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S1: And she'd been on some medication that they think has

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S1: exacerbated this. So if you are on medication or if

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S1: you've wanted to lose weight for a long, long time

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S1: and you can't do it and you're stuck where you are,

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S1: could this help? I want to ask those questions of

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S1: Doctor Warren, and you can too. (877) 548-3675. But we have

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S1: to go back with Doctor Leonid Rogozov. Tell me about

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S1: why he's important.

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S2: So Doctor Rogozov story is important. And this is one

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S2: of those crazy things that happen from the Lord. As

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S2: I was writing this book, I was trying to figure

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S2: out how to start this book, and I had a dream. Chris,

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S2: I'm not a charismatic guy at all. But I had

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S2: a dream one night, and in the dream, I was

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S2: told to look up people who had performed surgery on

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S2: their own bodies. And that morning, I got out of bed,

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S2: and I went and researched that. And I found Leonid

243
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S2: Rogozov story, which I had never heard before. And so literally,

244
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S2: God gave me this story. But so Rogozov was a

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S2: young Soviet Union citizen who was a general surgeon. And

246
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S2: in 1961, he was deployed as the sort of team

247
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S2: doctor for this Antarctic research expedition that went down to Antarctica.

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S2: And there were a bunch of truck drivers and mechanics

249
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S2: and lab people and, you know, scientists. And then they

250
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S2: sent Rogozov because somebody smart said, well, what if somebody

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S2: gets sick while they're down there? We'll need a doctor.

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S2: So they sent Rogozov. So they get to Antarctica, and

253
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S2: the ship that brought them there goes back to Russia.

254
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S2: Then the winter comes and the ocean freezes over and

255
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S2: they're stuck there until the spring. There's no hope of

256
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S2: getting anybody in or out. And so that's why they

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S2: had a doctor with them, right? So then while they're there,

258
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S2: rogozov the doctor gets sick, he starts having a fever

259
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S2: and having abdominal pain. And he pretty quickly figures out

260
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S2: that he has appendicitis. And of course, appendicitis, if not

261
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S2: treated surgically, is fatal. And so Rogozov has kept this diary,

262
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S2: and the diary gets progressively more hopeless as he realizes

263
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S2: the predicament that he's in. He's like, I am dying.

264
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S2: I'm never going to see my family again, never going

265
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S2: to see my homeland again. There's nobody here who can

266
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S2: help me. When did this real despair, hopelessness, all that

267
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S2: woe is me stuff that we do when we're dying

268
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S2: and we can't do anything about it. And then he

269
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S2: had this remarkable perspective shift where he said, wait a minute,

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S2: I need an operation and I know how to perform operations.

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S2: I need my appendix out, and I know how to

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S2: do that for other people. The only thing I need

273
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S2: is to figure out how to do it to myself.

274
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S2: And so he he trained a mechanic. This is so crazy.

275
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S2: He trained a mechanic to pass some instruments. He trained

276
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S2: another guy to slap him in case he passed out

277
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S2: from the pain. He had another guy hold a mirror

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S2: for him so he could see his hands, and he

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S2: took his own appendix out and saved his own life.

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S2: But the remarkable part of the story is not that

281
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S2: he had the technical skills to do surgery. That's not

282
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S2: the remarkable part. The remarkable part is that he had

283
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S2: the insight to be willing to change his perspective from

284
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S2: this hopeless person who needed somebody else to come and

285
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S2: save him, and there was nobody else to come to.

286
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S2: Being this person who could look at the problem objectively

287
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S2: and say, wait a minute, I've got this training, I

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S2: have these skills, I can deliver this care to somebody.

289
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S2: I just have to think of myself as the doctor

290
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S2: in this scenario and not as the patient. And then

291
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S2: I realized that that's exactly what we have to do.

292
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S2: Once you realize that God has given you a mechanism

293
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S2: by which you can change how your brain works in

294
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S2: response to what you think, then that means if you're

295
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S2: if you've been sick for a long time, you've been

296
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S2: chronically stressed. If you've been sad or anxious or panicky

297
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S2: or depressed or whatever for a long time, and you

298
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S2: learn that you have some ability to change what your

299
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S2: brain is doing, change the chemical environment in your brain

300
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S2: by changing what you think about repeatedly. Then you can

301
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S2: switch from that that person who needs outside salvation, somebody

302
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S2: come along and fix me, manage me. I'm broken. I

303
00:16:00,730 --> 00:16:02,450
S2: can't do anything for myself. And all of a sudden

304
00:16:02,450 --> 00:16:05,690
S2: you've got some agency. And hope is defined as the

305
00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:09,410
S2: agency and opportunity to do something about your problem. So

306
00:16:09,410 --> 00:16:11,090
S2: all of a sudden, you've got a mechanism that God

307
00:16:11,090 --> 00:16:14,010
S2: gave you a Holy Spirit that's going to remind you

308
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S2: of things that are true. And you've got a brain

309
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S2: and a nervous system that are designed to respond to

310
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S2: your thinking by changing the structural things that are happening

311
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S2: in the brain and change the chemical environment in your brain.

312
00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:27,010
S2: That means you're a brain surgeon already. You just have

313
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S2: to decide to take charge of that process.

314
00:16:29,810 --> 00:16:32,650
S1: But again, he used he had to use a scalpel

315
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S1: to go in and get his appendix out. Right.

316
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S2: And you don't have to.

317
00:16:36,570 --> 00:16:39,270
S1: And you well, you'd you'd have to have more than

318
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S1: a scalpel. Scalpel. Because of the of the brain. You know,

319
00:16:42,670 --> 00:16:45,190
S1: the the bone that you need to get through. But

320
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S1: wait a minute. I'm stuck on the self appendicitis. Uh,

321
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S1: I thought, do they do they take the appendix out

322
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S1: from the front or the or the back?

323
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S2: The front, the front.

324
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S1: Okay, so when the mechanic gave me, I gave him these, uh,

325
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S1: instruments and he made the incision, did the, did somebody

326
00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:09,630
S1: else kind of reach in and grab that?

327
00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:11,310
S2: No, he did the whole thing. They held a mirror

328
00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:14,149
S2: up so he could see he did the entire operation himself.

329
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S1: Yowza.

330
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S2: With local anesthetic.

331
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S1: Okay, so so don't get like me. I got stuck

332
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S1: on that kind of thing, you know, because I picture

333
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S1: myself doing that. Yeah. Don't get stuck on that. Because

334
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S1: what Doctor Warren is saying that whatever it is that

335
00:17:29,109 --> 00:17:32,950
S1: you're in and maybe it is you had PTSD after

336
00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:36,110
S1: you came back from Iraq. Um, maybe it's it's some

337
00:17:36,109 --> 00:17:38,450
S1: kind of trauma that you have had in your life.

338
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S1: And this plays over and over and over again. You're

339
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S1: saying that that God has given us a mind that

340
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S1: has power over the brain and the synapses and all

341
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S1: the things that are firing up there, right?

342
00:17:53,609 --> 00:17:56,130
S2: That's right, that's right. In fact, there's really good research

343
00:17:56,130 --> 00:18:00,689
S2: now that shows that within seconds to a few minutes

344
00:18:00,690 --> 00:18:03,570
S2: of you repeating a thought over and over, like a

345
00:18:03,570 --> 00:18:06,209
S2: good example is learning a new motor skill or driving

346
00:18:06,250 --> 00:18:08,730
S2: to a new place, or thinking a new kind of

347
00:18:08,770 --> 00:18:12,010
S2: thought about your life? Within seconds to minutes, your brain

348
00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:15,370
S2: starts to deploy these structural elements that are called microtubules,

349
00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:20,169
S2: little pipes that then neurons send their wires, which are

350
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S2: called synapses and axons and dendrites, these little, little wires

351
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S2: that grow out of neurons to go through the microtubules

352
00:18:27,130 --> 00:18:30,770
S2: tubules like little tunnels or pipes, and literally make new

353
00:18:30,810 --> 00:18:33,690
S2: structural connections from one neuron to another that were not

354
00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:38,020
S2: there before. Within seconds to minutes of new thoughts happening.

355
00:18:38,020 --> 00:18:40,380
S2: And so then if you reinforce those over time, you

356
00:18:40,660 --> 00:18:44,859
S2: make those connections more robust. There's a thing in neuroscience

357
00:18:44,859 --> 00:18:48,420
S2: called Hebb's law that says neurons that fire together wire together.

358
00:18:48,460 --> 00:18:51,700
S2: It basically means that the more you repeat something, the

359
00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:54,939
S2: more neurons connect to reinforce that thing and begin to

360
00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:57,939
S2: automate it over time. So the reason people feel stuck,

361
00:18:57,940 --> 00:19:01,300
S2: for example, if you think you're an anxious person, you

362
00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:04,100
S2: define yourself by the the things that you feel all

363
00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:06,900
S2: the time. The reason that feels like it's who you

364
00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:09,899
S2: are is because over a long period of time, you've

365
00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:12,540
S2: thought about the same things in the same way, and

366
00:19:12,540 --> 00:19:15,820
S2: your brain has automated those things with those structural connections

367
00:19:15,820 --> 00:19:19,859
S2: very robustly. And so that feels automatic because that's what

368
00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:22,340
S2: brains do. They automate things to make us not have

369
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S2: to think about them as much.

370
00:19:25,020 --> 00:19:29,379
S1: So if let's, let's not go to the hard cases first.

371
00:19:29,619 --> 00:19:35,360
S1: Let's say a person has this continual looks at life negatively.

372
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,359
S1: Half glass, half empty and always a new idea comes

373
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,720
S1: up from someone and this person always sees the flaw

374
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,399
S1: can point out. Now that's not going to work because

375
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,040
S1: of this. And have you thought of this and this

376
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:48,960
S1: and this and this could happen over here and all

377
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,159
S1: that kind of thing. I'm talking about myself now because

378
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,200
S1: that's very much the way I am. The way that

379
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,720
S1: I've kind of was raised, and then the way that

380
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,800
S1: I have just kind of lived my life. Are you

381
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,720
S1: saying that I can get out of the only seeing

382
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,879
S1: the negative of the situation in in whatever I'm facing.

383
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,880
S2: You can you have to develop what's called a positivity bias. Actually,

384
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,560
S2: this has been really well studied. They look at people

385
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,639
S2: who are who have kind of a positive bias to

386
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,639
S2: things and people who have sort of a negative bias

387
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,920
S2: to things, and they say, what's what's more helpful overall

388
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,520
S2: to overall brain function and health? Is it more positive

389
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,520
S2: thinking or is it less negative thinking? And the answer

390
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,360
S2: to what's most helpful is less negative thinking. And it's

391
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,220
S2: by a mile. Like it's way better for your brain

392
00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:39,460
S2: to think, to spend less time thinking about things negatively

393
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:41,940
S2: than it is to be more positive. So that means

394
00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:45,460
S2: that that you can begin to focus your thoughts on.

395
00:20:45,619 --> 00:20:48,659
S2: For example, if you're a worst case scenario person, like, oh,

396
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:50,580
S2: this is never going to work out. Nothing ever works

397
00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:52,540
S2: out for me or this is probably going to end badly.

398
00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:55,100
S2: If you can just make yourself spend an equal amount

399
00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:57,620
S2: of time saying, wait a minute, if I'm going to

400
00:20:57,660 --> 00:21:00,260
S2: predict the future that I don't have any control over

401
00:21:00,260 --> 00:21:02,260
S2: and may or may not be true, then I can

402
00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:04,700
S2: at least spend as much time predicting a future that

403
00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:07,020
S2: would end okay for me. Maybe trust God enough to

404
00:21:07,060 --> 00:21:09,060
S2: say maybe it will work out. So instead of saying,

405
00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:11,260
S2: what if this is going to end badly, just say

406
00:21:11,260 --> 00:21:13,379
S2: to yourself, well, what if it works out? What if

407
00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:15,619
S2: it doesn't end badly? And then what you're doing is

408
00:21:15,619 --> 00:21:19,260
S2: you're leaving room for possibility. And hope again is defined

409
00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:22,580
S2: as agency and opportunity, right? There's some possibility that God

410
00:21:22,580 --> 00:21:25,580
S2: may deliver, may come through for you, and you're letting

411
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:28,860
S2: your brain begin to wire in the opportunity to see

412
00:21:28,859 --> 00:21:31,340
S2: that reality. There's two things that are important here in

413
00:21:31,340 --> 00:21:35,280
S2: this conversation. One is that your brain, the human brain,

414
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,440
S2: lacks the ability to discern between something that's really happening

415
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,560
S2: and something that you're just imagining or worrying about. And

416
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,639
S2: that means that it's very true that your brain doesn't

417
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,280
S2: know the difference between a sound that you hear and

418
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,600
S2: a bear crashing through your wall, and you're in real

419
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,800
S2: physical danger, and you're about to get eaten by a bear.

420
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,720
S2: The physiological response in your brain is exactly the same

421
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,280
S2: as if you're just sitting in bed worrying about something

422
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,880
S2: that's going to happen tomorrow, or might happen tomorrow. You're

423
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,200
S2: going to get your heart racing. Your mouth gets dry.

424
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,880
S2: The hairs stand up on the back of your neck.

425
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,800
S2: The physiology of your brain's response to the imagined threat

426
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,760
S2: is exactly the same as a real threat. And so

427
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,280
S2: that means when you spend time rehearsing potential bad things,

428
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,960
S2: your brain is wiring as if those things are happening.

429
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,880
S2: And here's why it matters to have less negative thinking.

430
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,080
S2: It matters because the parts of your brain that get

431
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,500
S2: involved in planning responses to negative things are not the

432
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:36,180
S2: parts that are that are really good at decision making

433
00:22:36,180 --> 00:22:38,780
S2: and really have a lot of cognitive power. So the

434
00:22:38,780 --> 00:22:41,620
S2: parts that are involved in fight or flight or threat,

435
00:22:41,780 --> 00:22:45,699
S2: threat response or protection and sort of survival, those are

436
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:48,459
S2: the small parts of your brain that are about getting

437
00:22:48,460 --> 00:22:51,660
S2: motor stuff happening and getting away from danger. The parts

438
00:22:51,660 --> 00:22:54,139
S2: that are involved in planning good things in the future

439
00:22:54,380 --> 00:22:58,220
S2: are decision making, frontal lobes, huge areas of gray matter

440
00:22:58,220 --> 00:23:00,660
S2: that allow you to make really good decisions and stay

441
00:23:00,660 --> 00:23:03,180
S2: reasonable and rational. So that means that the less time

442
00:23:03,180 --> 00:23:06,179
S2: you spend being negative, the more your brain begins to

443
00:23:06,220 --> 00:23:09,420
S2: default towards positivity and the better parts of your brain

444
00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:12,060
S2: begin to come online and help you make better decisions,

445
00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:15,860
S2: which then actually leads to you having better outcomes overall

446
00:23:15,859 --> 00:23:18,300
S2: because you're making better decisions about the things that you

447
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:19,020
S2: plan to do.

448
00:23:19,420 --> 00:23:23,180
S1: Rather than out of fear. And that's, and that's a choice, right?

449
00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:24,020
S2: It's a choice.

450
00:23:25,540 --> 00:23:27,980
S1: Uh, okay, so that's going to turn the light on

451
00:23:27,980 --> 00:23:30,560
S1: for somebody. And if, if you're right in what you've

452
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,560
S1: just said, then we already are doing self brain surgery.

453
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,400
S1: We just don't realize it, right?

454
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,720
S2: That's right. This process that's called neuroplasticity is we've only

455
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,359
S2: been discovered since the late 1990s. By the way, because

456
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,200
S2: we used to think that the brain was sort of fixed,

457
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,920
S2: that by the time you're 2 or 3 years old,

458
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:50,479
S2: your brain's as big as it's going to get and

459
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,040
S2: you're stuck with the brain that you have. And so

460
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,800
S2: that led to this whole belief that the genes that

461
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,560
S2: you inherit and the parents that you that raised you

462
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,960
S2: determine how your brain's going to be. And now we

463
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:03,200
S2: know that your brain literally is never the same moment

464
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,480
S2: to moment, like your brain is structurally different now than

465
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,720
S2: it was when we started this conversation, because it literally

466
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,680
S2: rewires itself in response to every thought that you have,

467
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,080
S2: which tangentially is why in second Corinthians ten five, the

468
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,360
S2: Bible says to take every thought captive, because we know

469
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,280
S2: from neuroscience research now that something like two thirds of

470
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,439
S2: your automatic thoughts are not true, they're just false. And

471
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,440
S2: if you react to them as if they are true,

472
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,410
S2: then what are you doing? You're wiring your brain to

473
00:24:29,450 --> 00:24:32,890
S2: respond to something that isn't true, which is never going

474
00:24:32,890 --> 00:24:35,449
S2: to lead to a good outcome. So if you're aware

475
00:24:35,450 --> 00:24:39,050
S2: that you have the power to direct that neuroplasticity process

476
00:24:39,050 --> 00:24:41,650
S2: that is happening anyway, then what you're doing is you're

477
00:24:41,650 --> 00:24:44,409
S2: deciding to take command of your nervous system. So it

478
00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:46,609
S2: doesn't take command of you, because one of those two

479
00:24:46,609 --> 00:24:48,290
S2: things is going to happen. Like your brain's going to

480
00:24:48,330 --> 00:24:51,170
S2: boss you around or you're going to boss it around.

481
00:24:53,010 --> 00:24:55,410
S1: You get it. Okay. If two thirds of my thoughts

482
00:24:55,410 --> 00:25:00,930
S1: are not true, then that, that that, uh, confirms what

483
00:25:00,930 --> 00:25:03,930
S1: people say that the most of the things that you

484
00:25:03,970 --> 00:25:06,330
S1: worry about never happen, right?

485
00:25:06,570 --> 00:25:09,770
S2: Yeah. There's really good research about that. That's something like 97%

486
00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:12,210
S2: of things that worry, worry us turn out to be

487
00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:14,129
S2: false or to never come true. So that means we

488
00:25:14,130 --> 00:25:17,930
S2: spend a tremendous amount of neural resources and emotional energy

489
00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:22,530
S2: and physiological energy, thinking about stuff that never comes to pass.

490
00:25:22,530 --> 00:25:26,649
S2: Instead of planning a future that God could sort of ordain,

491
00:25:26,650 --> 00:25:28,950
S2: that would be more positive for us.

492
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:31,350
S4: It's that 3% that always gets me though.

493
00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:35,190
S1: Okay, doctor Lee Warren is with us today. The life

494
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:38,070
S1: changing art of self brain surgery. I want to hear

495
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:41,389
S1: from you. Does this make sense what he's talking about

496
00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:45,350
S1: or are you going through a period of anxiety and

497
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:53,190
S1: struggle and you want to have him answer some questions (877) 548-3675.

498
00:26:04,670 --> 00:26:07,510
S1: We're talking with the host of the doctor Lee Warren podcast,

499
00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:12,790
S1: which is excellent, by the way. Neurosurgeon W Lee Warren, MD.

500
00:26:13,790 --> 00:26:17,990
S1: Featured resource. Today is the life changing art of self

501
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:23,629
S1: brain surgery, connecting neuroscience and faith to radically transform your life.

502
00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:25,270
S1: You can find out more about it at the website

503
00:26:25,270 --> 00:26:32,090
S1: Chris Fabry, Chris Fabry live.org to Nashville we go. K

504
00:26:32,130 --> 00:26:34,130
S1: is on the line K. Why did you call today?

505
00:26:34,970 --> 00:26:37,130
S5: Hi. Sorry. It's gonna be a lot of transition. I'm

506
00:26:37,130 --> 00:26:40,169
S5: in the school pickup line, so I originally was calling

507
00:26:40,170 --> 00:26:43,650
S5: to say thank you for this segment because I knew

508
00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:46,130
S5: exactly what you meant when you gave the subject of

509
00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:49,090
S5: today's show, because it's something that I've been interested in

510
00:26:49,090 --> 00:26:51,610
S5: and just haven't implemented. So I said, this is a

511
00:26:51,609 --> 00:26:54,410
S5: perfect reminder for me to like, hey, get on it.

512
00:26:54,410 --> 00:26:57,450
S5: But as I was waiting, I wanted to ask, what

513
00:26:57,450 --> 00:26:59,489
S5: is it something that you feel like is out of

514
00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:03,370
S5: your control? Like I battle with anxiety and depression. I

515
00:27:03,369 --> 00:27:06,129
S5: don't take any medications because the ones that I did

516
00:27:06,170 --> 00:27:08,449
S5: take had me hallucinating. And I'm sorry if that's too

517
00:27:08,450 --> 00:27:11,610
S5: much for the radio. So I have not taken anything

518
00:27:11,609 --> 00:27:14,450
S5: in such a long time. Um, so, but I have

519
00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:19,250
S5: moments where it just feels like I can't control anything

520
00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:22,369
S5: around me. Like I get frustrated out of nowhere and

521
00:27:22,369 --> 00:27:27,870
S5: nothing seemingly could, trigger it. It's just that I just

522
00:27:27,869 --> 00:27:31,030
S5: get this overwhelming feeling and I want to cry. I

523
00:27:31,030 --> 00:27:33,430
S5: just don't I don't understand it, and I don't feel

524
00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:36,670
S5: like it's me being negative. But in that space I

525
00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:39,270
S5: become negative or I shut down.

526
00:27:39,470 --> 00:27:42,350
S1: Do you ever have panic attacks along with that?

527
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:46,350
S5: I've had a panic attack maybe once.

528
00:27:46,510 --> 00:27:47,830
S1: Okay. All right.

529
00:27:47,869 --> 00:27:52,830
S5: To my recollection, I've had experience with anxiety since 2018.

530
00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:55,790
S5: But once I was diagnosed with congestive heart failure in

531
00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:59,190
S5: March 2023, I think it's been exasperated ever since.

532
00:27:59,470 --> 00:28:02,110
S1: Okay. Well, and I can tell you've got a passenger

533
00:28:02,109 --> 00:28:04,790
S1: there who's just got in the car, so thank you. See,

534
00:28:04,790 --> 00:28:07,350
S1: we do real life here. Ladies and gentlemen, we this

535
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:10,390
S1: is the, uh, the school pick up line. So what

536
00:28:10,390 --> 00:28:12,150
S1: would you say to k Doctor Warren?

537
00:28:12,670 --> 00:28:15,390
S2: So, k, I empathize with you, and I've had those

538
00:28:15,390 --> 00:28:18,870
S2: feelings too, especially after I lost my son. Um, and

539
00:28:18,869 --> 00:28:22,070
S2: it does sometimes feel overwhelming, but the thing we've learned

540
00:28:22,270 --> 00:28:25,530
S2: from neuroscience and also from Scripture, is what I put

541
00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:28,129
S2: in the book as the second commandment of self brain surgery,

542
00:28:28,130 --> 00:28:31,369
S2: which is feelings are not facts, they are chemical events

543
00:28:31,369 --> 00:28:34,290
S2: in my brain. And once you once you realize that

544
00:28:34,290 --> 00:28:38,330
S2: an alarming number of the things that we feel aren't,

545
00:28:38,770 --> 00:28:41,850
S2: aren't happening because there's something really happening. There's something because

546
00:28:41,850 --> 00:28:45,010
S2: our brain is running a program. It's our brain is

547
00:28:45,010 --> 00:28:47,930
S2: running a program that makes us then tell ourselves a

548
00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:50,810
S2: story about what that program means. Once you realize that,

549
00:28:51,370 --> 00:28:54,210
S2: then you realize you can you can take command of

550
00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:58,209
S2: that process and you can divert the the energy from

551
00:28:58,210 --> 00:29:01,130
S2: it by engaging another part of your brain. And the

552
00:29:01,130 --> 00:29:03,850
S2: way you do that is if the if the anxiety

553
00:29:03,850 --> 00:29:06,330
S2: is coming on or the panic is coming on, you

554
00:29:06,330 --> 00:29:09,010
S2: can engage a different part of your brain. The fastest

555
00:29:09,010 --> 00:29:10,650
S2: way to do it is by getting your breath under

556
00:29:10,650 --> 00:29:12,410
S2: your own control, so you can take a deep breath

557
00:29:12,410 --> 00:29:15,410
S2: in through your nose, hold it for four seconds, and

558
00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:17,610
S2: then slowly let it out through your mouth like, like

559
00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:19,890
S2: Chris just did at the start of this program. And

560
00:29:19,890 --> 00:29:22,500
S2: what you're doing when you're doing that is you're saying

561
00:29:22,540 --> 00:29:25,260
S2: you're telling your brain, I am in command of you,

562
00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:27,420
S2: and I'm going to choose to breathe right now instead

563
00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:30,540
S2: of panicking. And then that's going to kick your parasympathetic

564
00:29:30,540 --> 00:29:32,900
S2: nervous system into gear. Your vagus nerve is going to

565
00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:34,900
S2: fire up, and that's going to calm your heart rate down.

566
00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:37,180
S2: That's going to allow you to draw more oxygen in

567
00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:39,500
S2: with that next breath. And then it also does another

568
00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:41,900
S2: thing where it gets your frontal lobe to come online

569
00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:43,900
S2: instead of your amygdala, which is where the fear is

570
00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:46,700
S2: coming from. And so you can, you can divert your

571
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:50,460
S2: attention and your brain resources away from the thing that

572
00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:53,780
S2: is generating that chemical response that you interpret as anxiety.

573
00:29:54,260 --> 00:29:56,300
S2: And you can get another part of your brain active

574
00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:58,900
S2: and your brain actually cannot do two things at the

575
00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:02,540
S2: same time. We're good at switching back and forth rapidly,

576
00:30:02,540 --> 00:30:04,900
S2: but you can only really do one thing mentally at

577
00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:06,900
S2: the same time. And so if you can make yourself

578
00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:10,500
S2: stay on task, breathe, breathe, breathe, think about something great

579
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:12,100
S2: that I'm grateful for. I'm going to get a different

580
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:13,900
S2: part of my brain engaged. I'm going to get my

581
00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:15,820
S2: frontal lobes engaged, and I'm going to start thinking about

582
00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:18,580
S2: the problem. I'm really in danger. Is there really something

583
00:30:18,580 --> 00:30:21,560
S2: bad happening or am I just feeling that? And then remember,

584
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,400
S2: feelings aren't facts. They're just chemical events. Then before you

585
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,800
S2: know it, that that's going to subside. And then you're

586
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,960
S2: going to have convinced yourself that you actually do have

587
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,080
S2: some power to overcome those events. And then you'll start

588
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,320
S2: your that Hebbs law thing we talked about a minute ago.

589
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,920
S2: Your brain's going to automate that new response. The more

590
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,480
S2: you practice it, then the default will be more likely

591
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,840
S2: in the future that you go towards taking command of

592
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,400
S2: it than giving into it and letting it take control

593
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,880
S2: of you. So you'll start to feel more confident the

594
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,000
S2: more you practice that little procedure.

595
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,760
S1: Wow. Okay. Thank you for your call. Drive carefully out there. Hey,

596
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,160
S1: you just put a couple of things together. Relationships can

597
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,400
S1: be helped by this, too, because we had a few

598
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,120
S1: weeks ago, doctor Kelly Flanagan on talking about the road

599
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,480
S1: less triggered. And this was basically about communication in marriage

600
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,560
S1: or friendships, but mainly in marriage, that when your spouse

601
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,040
S1: says something that triggers you and boom, you're right back

602
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,560
S1: there into the thing that she said or he said

603
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,100
S1: years ago, and you've got this physical response to it

604
00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:24,100
S1: that there's, there are things that you can do that

605
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:27,100
S1: you don't have to stay with the feeling you can

606
00:31:27,100 --> 00:31:32,820
S1: go toward the facts or toward the relationship rather than

607
00:31:32,860 --> 00:31:36,500
S1: staying in that frightened, tightened state. Right?

608
00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:39,860
S2: That's right, that's right. Can I flip that on its

609
00:31:39,860 --> 00:31:42,100
S2: head too? And this is something I talk about in

610
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:45,060
S2: the book about being triggered. One little thing to think

611
00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:47,460
S2: about triggers, because that's a common thing we talk about

612
00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:49,540
S2: these days is he triggered me or she triggered me

613
00:31:49,540 --> 00:31:52,500
S2: or that triggered me. But think about the word trigger

614
00:31:52,740 --> 00:31:55,660
S2: and think about a gun, right? It's a handgun lying

615
00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:57,980
S2: on your table. It's got a trigger. Like that gun

616
00:31:57,980 --> 00:32:02,860
S2: doesn't go off unless you pull the trigger, right? Somebody's

617
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:05,860
S2: yelling at you or somebody robbing your house, or somebody

618
00:32:05,860 --> 00:32:09,180
S2: doing something outside of you doesn't pull the trigger. You

619
00:32:09,180 --> 00:32:11,580
S2: pull the trigger. And so if you can start to

620
00:32:11,620 --> 00:32:14,460
S2: think about the fact again, that you have some control

621
00:32:14,460 --> 00:32:17,300
S2: over what your brain does, that means that you don't

622
00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:20,240
S2: have to actually let that other person pull that trigger

623
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,080
S2: for you. You can't. Don't make them make you think

624
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,440
S2: that you're obligated to pull the trigger. Because you're in,

625
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,600
S2: you're in control of whether you pull it or not.

626
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,240
S2: So then that starts to change the things you think

627
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,040
S2: about upstream from the times you get into that situation

628
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,600
S2: where you think you're triggerable by somebody else. So then

629
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:38,800
S2: the way to get on top of that is to

630
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,400
S2: start thinking, okay, when I get into this situation, when

631
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,160
S2: I'm in this state of mind and my wife's in

632
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,520
S2: that state of mind and this is happening, that's when

633
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,160
S2: I tend to do that thing. So if I start

634
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,880
S2: spending time ahead of that, running that program in my

635
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,120
S2: mind about telling my brain what you're going to do

636
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,640
S2: when this happens, you'll stop feeling obligated to pull the trigger.

637
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,680
S1: And what? And so then you get, you say the program, okay,

638
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,320
S1: I'm going to breathe. I'm not going to just yell

639
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,080
S1: or react or run out of the room because that's

640
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,120
S1: if you are an avoider, that's what you do. You know,

641
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,840
S1: take it, take a breath here and maybe ask. I

642
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,940
S1: think Kelly was saying, uh, ask a follow up question.

643
00:33:16,940 --> 00:33:18,780
S1: Tell me what you mean by that. You know, rather

644
00:33:18,780 --> 00:33:22,940
S1: than accusing, then you actually move toward the other person

645
00:33:22,940 --> 00:33:26,020
S1: rather than letting the trigger take over.

646
00:33:26,460 --> 00:33:28,540
S2: Right? And you just think about, I like to call

647
00:33:28,540 --> 00:33:31,460
S2: it the patient to doctor shift like like Rogozov did, right.

648
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:34,940
S2: You think, am I this victim person who this event

649
00:33:34,940 --> 00:33:37,820
S2: is happening to? And I have no choice but to

650
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:41,260
S2: die or to react in some way. AM I that

651
00:33:41,260 --> 00:33:44,219
S2: person the victim here, or can I sort of put

652
00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:45,860
S2: that white coat on and decide I'm going to be

653
00:33:45,860 --> 00:33:48,820
S2: the surgeon, I'm going to operate my brain so it

654
00:33:48,820 --> 00:33:51,140
S2: stops operating me. I'm not going to let it make

655
00:33:51,140 --> 00:33:54,060
S2: me think I'm obligated to a particular response anymore. I'm

656
00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:57,180
S2: going to choose to condition my brain to give me

657
00:33:57,220 --> 00:34:00,740
S2: good outcomes to to direct me, to protect my relationship

658
00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:03,340
S2: instead of fighting, fighting about it. I mean, it sounds

659
00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:04,100
S2: like Romans.

660
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:05,420
S1: 12 one to me.

661
00:34:05,660 --> 00:34:08,339
S2: It's exactly Romans. So? So you're right. So everybody talks

662
00:34:08,340 --> 00:34:11,299
S2: about Romans 12 two, about renewing the mind. Don't be

663
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:13,420
S2: conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed

664
00:34:13,420 --> 00:34:15,670
S2: by the renewing of your mind. But what's the pattern

665
00:34:15,710 --> 00:34:18,669
S2: of this world that he's talking about? It's comes from

666
00:34:18,670 --> 00:34:21,750
S2: verse one. It's like the opposite of worship is self

667
00:34:21,790 --> 00:34:25,989
S2: worship of idolatry. And Romans 12 one says, present your

668
00:34:25,989 --> 00:34:29,310
S2: body as a living and acceptable sacrifice to God, right?

669
00:34:29,630 --> 00:34:32,030
S2: That's your brain is part of your body. So Romans

670
00:34:32,030 --> 00:34:34,990
S2: 12 one is about your brain and your body. Romans

671
00:34:34,989 --> 00:34:37,310
S2: 12 two is don't conform to the pattern of this world.

672
00:34:37,310 --> 00:34:39,910
S2: The pattern of this world is live your truth. Do

673
00:34:39,950 --> 00:34:42,950
S2: your thing. Follow your heart. Obey what your brain tells

674
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:47,390
S2: you to do. Be transformed by renewing your mind. Change

675
00:34:47,390 --> 00:34:50,310
S2: what you think about. You'll change what your brain does.

676
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:55,310
S1: Wow. Doctor Lee Warren, the life changing art of self

677
00:34:55,350 --> 00:35:00,029
S1: brain surgery. I'm actually doing surgery right now and I

678
00:35:00,030 --> 00:35:04,430
S1: don't even have gloves on. Uh, Danielle is in Florida. Danielle,

679
00:35:04,469 --> 00:35:08,190
S1: you are going to represent so many people who struggle

680
00:35:08,190 --> 00:35:10,350
S1: the way that you struggle. Tell me what's going on.

681
00:35:12,270 --> 00:35:16,650
S6: Um, well, basically, I, um, don't get good sleep because, uh,

682
00:35:16,650 --> 00:35:19,330
S6: I don't look forward to tomorrow. Therefore, I go to

683
00:35:19,370 --> 00:35:22,290
S6: bed like three, four, five, six, seven, even eight in

684
00:35:22,330 --> 00:35:25,170
S6: the morning. I sleep all day, and then I get

685
00:35:25,170 --> 00:35:27,609
S6: up and I'm like, in this vicious loop. I get up,

686
00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:29,810
S6: it's late. I get nothing done. I need to look

687
00:35:29,810 --> 00:35:32,009
S6: for a job because I need to start getting some

688
00:35:32,010 --> 00:35:35,690
S6: income in. I'm in this vicious loop. How important is sleep?

689
00:35:35,730 --> 00:35:38,450
S6: I really feel like a zombie all the time. How

690
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:42,770
S6: important is sleep when it comes to your brain? Like,

691
00:35:42,810 --> 00:35:44,850
S6: how do I get myself out of this loop? How

692
00:35:44,850 --> 00:35:47,930
S6: do I get to where I look forward to tomorrow? Where? Um,

693
00:35:48,969 --> 00:35:51,450
S6: I just need to get some sleep. So, like, am

694
00:35:51,450 --> 00:35:54,730
S6: I supposed to think of. I know Jesus is our foundation,

695
00:35:54,730 --> 00:35:57,730
S6: but in my mind, sleep is my foundation. I've got

696
00:35:57,730 --> 00:36:00,450
S6: to start getting good sleep or I'm. Nothing's going to

697
00:36:00,450 --> 00:36:01,290
S6: happen for me.

698
00:36:01,489 --> 00:36:04,169
S7: Especially if you don't, you can't do. Okay. And here's

699
00:36:04,170 --> 00:36:04,529
S7: the other.

700
00:36:04,530 --> 00:36:07,890
S1: Thing to add to that equation. Um, let's say you

701
00:36:07,930 --> 00:36:10,170
S1: have say you have another person who's, you know, it's like,

702
00:36:10,210 --> 00:36:11,890
S1: I know I need to get a good night's sleep

703
00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:13,990
S1: and I'm going to go. You know, I've done everything

704
00:36:13,989 --> 00:36:17,069
S1: that I can do. I've got an exercise and I've

705
00:36:17,070 --> 00:36:19,670
S1: done all this thing. And now I'm, I'm heading toward

706
00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:21,750
S1: that time of the evening when I go to bed

707
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:24,229
S1: and I'm going to put my head down. And then

708
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:27,549
S1: the anxiety comes because I think, what if I don't sleep?

709
00:36:27,550 --> 00:36:29,310
S1: What if I can't get to sleep? Or I do

710
00:36:29,350 --> 00:36:31,149
S1: get to sleep, and then I wake up and then

711
00:36:31,150 --> 00:36:33,350
S1: it's all over. I'm going to be up all night. Okay.

712
00:36:33,390 --> 00:36:35,670
S1: Doctor Lee Warren is going to talk to that. He

713
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:38,310
S1: is the author of The Life Changing Art of Self

714
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:43,670
S1: Brain Surgery Connecting Neuroscience and Faith to radically Transform Your Life.

715
00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:46,950
S1: You don't have to remember that. Just go to chris.org

716
00:36:47,870 --> 00:36:52,830
S1: and you'll see a link right there, chris.org. We'll talk

717
00:36:52,830 --> 00:37:05,950
S1: more about sleep straight ahead on Moody Radio. I hope

718
00:37:05,950 --> 00:37:08,870
S1: you'll join us next week. It's Holy Week. We're going

719
00:37:08,910 --> 00:37:12,410
S1: to start the week with a tribute Two, doctor John

720
00:37:12,410 --> 00:37:15,810
S1: Perkins and Michael Card's going to be along. We're going

721
00:37:15,850 --> 00:37:18,969
S1: to talk about Passion Week. Rosy day Rose is going

722
00:37:19,010 --> 00:37:23,570
S1: to be with us. And Nancy DeMoss, Wolgemuth has decided

723
00:37:23,570 --> 00:37:25,810
S1: that it's time for her to come back on the

724
00:37:25,810 --> 00:37:29,930
S1: program and talk about the loss of Robert and and

725
00:37:29,930 --> 00:37:31,650
S1: more things. So it's going to be a really special

726
00:37:31,650 --> 00:37:33,890
S1: week and Good Friday there at the end of the week.

727
00:37:33,890 --> 00:37:37,410
S1: Hope you can join us then. Today, doctor Lee Warren,

728
00:37:37,450 --> 00:37:41,650
S1: the author of The Life Changing Art of self Brain Surgery. Again,

729
00:37:41,650 --> 00:37:47,010
S1: find it@chris.org. All right, Doctor Warren, sleep. What do you say?

730
00:37:47,770 --> 00:37:49,770
S2: Yeah. So that was a great question. And I'm sorry

731
00:37:49,770 --> 00:37:52,770
S2: you're going through that. Um sleep is incredibly important to

732
00:37:52,810 --> 00:37:54,930
S2: brain health. It's the time when your brain clears out

733
00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:58,490
S2: all the toxins and debris and neurons reset. And, and

734
00:37:58,530 --> 00:38:02,009
S2: it's also the time of general sort of restitution of

735
00:38:02,010 --> 00:38:04,090
S2: all kinds of body functions. So you need to sleep.

736
00:38:04,489 --> 00:38:06,810
S2: And if it's really a chronic problem, you might need

737
00:38:06,850 --> 00:38:08,930
S2: actually some professional help with that. But one thing that

738
00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:12,150
S2: I think does help because there's a little exercise that

739
00:38:12,150 --> 00:38:14,029
S2: you can do. This has been really well studied and

740
00:38:14,030 --> 00:38:16,910
S2: it does produce quality sleep. Let me get before I

741
00:38:16,910 --> 00:38:19,710
S2: get ahead of myself, let me say this. Instead of

742
00:38:19,710 --> 00:38:22,670
S2: what's going to build in your head, um, is it Danielle?

743
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:23,590
S2: Is it the listener?

744
00:38:23,750 --> 00:38:24,310
S1: Yes.

745
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:27,310
S2: Okay. Danielle, instead of building in your head all day

746
00:38:27,310 --> 00:38:29,870
S2: the story of how much you're dreading the insomnia that

747
00:38:29,870 --> 00:38:32,189
S2: you have convinced yourself is going to come, because it's

748
00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:35,350
S2: because that's on evidence. It's been you've been dealing with it.

749
00:38:35,390 --> 00:38:40,230
S2: But instead of that story, start to imagine a good

750
00:38:40,270 --> 00:38:42,950
S2: night's rest. Start to imagine how you're going to feel

751
00:38:42,989 --> 00:38:45,509
S2: tomorrow and then start to pray about that because God

752
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:47,910
S2: says he grants sleep to those he loves. Like call

753
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:49,870
S2: on God to give you that promise, to fulfill that

754
00:38:49,870 --> 00:38:54,150
S2: promise and begin to rehearse that play in your mind of,

755
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:56,069
S2: I'm going to tell my brain to go into this

756
00:38:56,070 --> 00:38:58,710
S2: rest mode and start practicing that throughout the day. So

757
00:38:58,750 --> 00:39:02,350
S2: instead of getting afraid and fear and worrying about not sleeping,

758
00:39:02,350 --> 00:39:04,950
S2: start to prepare as if you're going to sleep well,

759
00:39:05,070 --> 00:39:09,130
S2: do that. And then when you're trying to rest, If

760
00:39:09,370 --> 00:39:13,529
S2: there's this many. It's like the the therapy exercise. eMDR

761
00:39:13,570 --> 00:39:15,810
S2: if you've heard of that. You can close your eyes

762
00:39:15,810 --> 00:39:19,129
S2: and you can make yourself look with your eyeballs through

763
00:39:19,170 --> 00:39:21,770
S2: your closed lids, up and down and left and right

764
00:39:21,770 --> 00:39:23,890
S2: and diagonally over and over. And you can just focus

765
00:39:23,890 --> 00:39:26,490
S2: on doing that. And what that does is it gets

766
00:39:26,530 --> 00:39:29,690
S2: different parts of your brain engaged to begin to almost

767
00:39:29,690 --> 00:39:32,370
S2: go into a trance like state, and you stop being

768
00:39:32,370 --> 00:39:35,529
S2: able to cognitively process the default mode things that you're

769
00:39:35,530 --> 00:39:37,689
S2: thinking about. So all this stuff that you're worrying about

770
00:39:37,690 --> 00:39:40,609
S2: and afraid of, you can't actively think about when you're

771
00:39:40,610 --> 00:39:43,810
S2: making yourself do those motor movements with your eyes. And

772
00:39:43,810 --> 00:39:45,969
S2: what I add to that is a little scriptural thing

773
00:39:45,969 --> 00:39:48,890
S2: that I say. I lift up my eyes to the hills.

774
00:39:49,170 --> 00:39:51,530
S2: I looked down and I see the path. Your word

775
00:39:51,530 --> 00:39:53,410
S2: is the path, the lamp to my feet and a

776
00:39:53,410 --> 00:39:56,009
S2: light to my path. I look left and I say,

777
00:39:56,010 --> 00:39:58,650
S2: I forget what is behind me, and I strain towards

778
00:39:58,650 --> 00:40:00,729
S2: what is ahead. And I look to the right and

779
00:40:00,730 --> 00:40:02,569
S2: I say, I know God has a plan for me,

780
00:40:02,570 --> 00:40:04,330
S2: a plan to prosper me and to harm and not

781
00:40:04,330 --> 00:40:05,810
S2: to harm me. I plan to give me hope and

782
00:40:05,810 --> 00:40:08,259
S2: a future, and I just make myself think through that

783
00:40:08,260 --> 00:40:10,540
S2: as I'm moving my eyes around. And before I know it,

784
00:40:10,540 --> 00:40:13,779
S2: I'm asleep. And so that really takes command of the

785
00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:16,500
S2: processes that are hijacking your sleep. And I think those

786
00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:18,020
S2: two things together will help you.

787
00:40:19,100 --> 00:40:22,380
S1: So you just went through Psalms and Paul and Jeremiah

788
00:40:22,420 --> 00:40:25,500
S1: to get to where you to get to hit the

789
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:27,340
S1: snooze button, right? That's right.

790
00:40:27,620 --> 00:40:28,580
S2: It really helps.

791
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:31,739
S1: That really does. And Danielle, I hope that helps you.

792
00:40:31,739 --> 00:40:35,100
S1: And I hope it helps the person who is just

793
00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:38,020
S1: so frustrated and why, you know, I've been praying and

794
00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:40,780
S1: God hasn't given me that kind of sleep. Well, maybe

795
00:40:40,780 --> 00:40:43,300
S1: this will be the step you can take. And again,

796
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:46,100
S1: he describes this in the life changing art of self

797
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:48,660
S1: brain surgery. I want to get to, before we take

798
00:40:48,660 --> 00:40:52,259
S1: another call, what you call the fifth commandment, because this

799
00:40:52,260 --> 00:40:55,020
S1: is really important to understand before we end here today.

800
00:40:55,020 --> 00:40:55,860
S1: What is that?

801
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:59,380
S2: Yeah. So the fifth commandment of self brain surgery is

802
00:40:59,380 --> 00:41:02,420
S2: that I must understand that self brain surgery is not

803
00:41:02,420 --> 00:41:05,779
S2: a metaphor. It is the mechanism of how I change

804
00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:07,960
S2: my brain and how I changed my life. And I

805
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,799
S2: wrote it that way because I don't want you to

806
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,960
S2: think of this as just another self-help trick or a

807
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,480
S2: little thing you can try, or a little, little gimmick

808
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,480
S2: that you can pull off. This is actually you understanding

809
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,960
S2: how God designed your brain to respond to its mental direction,

810
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,400
S2: and it's how God designed you to partner with him,

811
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,320
S2: to operate your brain in a way that honors him,

812
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,200
S2: in a way that honors you and helps your life

813
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,919
S2: be better. This is how you become healthier and better

814
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,600
S2: and feel happier. Like you take command of that process.

815
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,399
S2: And it's structurally real. As real as what I do

816
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,080
S2: in surgery.

817
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,080
S1: Are you using this? You know, like when when you

818
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,360
S1: had the book proposal and it came out and you're thinking,

819
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,200
S1: what if nobody reads this? And what if I put

820
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,840
S1: all this work into it? You know, did you ideate

821
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,200
S1: that way or did you were you able to move

822
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:58,520
S1: to a different place?

823
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,399
S2: Yeah, it's really helped me. I mean, this all came

824
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,000
S2: out of how Lisa and I recovered from losing Mitch

825
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,620
S2: and how we how we. I studied science and I

826
00:42:06,620 --> 00:42:09,020
S2: put faith together with it. But the practices that we

827
00:42:09,060 --> 00:42:12,140
S2: developed to help us overcome the loss of our son

828
00:42:12,140 --> 00:42:14,419
S2: and I'm getting letters and emails from people all over

829
00:42:14,420 --> 00:42:16,339
S2: the world like, this is saving my life. This is

830
00:42:16,340 --> 00:42:19,379
S2: saving my marriage. This is getting me from drinking. As

831
00:42:19,380 --> 00:42:21,580
S2: much like this is really changing my life. Because once

832
00:42:21,580 --> 00:42:25,700
S2: you start understanding this, this agency, this power that you

833
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:28,740
S2: have to not have to feel like you've always felt

834
00:42:28,739 --> 00:42:31,460
S2: you can change what your brain is doing, which will

835
00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:34,940
S2: change how you're doing. And it's just, it's incredibly helpful.

836
00:42:35,219 --> 00:42:38,020
S1: Carla in Chicago. Carla, why did you call?

837
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:43,820
S8: Hi. I'm calling because I get claustrophobic and it happens

838
00:42:43,820 --> 00:42:46,379
S8: to me when I'm in either elevators or just when

839
00:42:46,380 --> 00:42:49,140
S8: people are talking about like, let's say, their vacation and

840
00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:53,100
S8: talking about how they were under some caves. I just,

841
00:42:53,100 --> 00:42:55,819
S8: I can't even breathe. Like it just gives me so

842
00:42:55,820 --> 00:43:00,020
S8: much anxiety. And I do have anxiety, um, worst case

843
00:43:00,020 --> 00:43:03,100
S8: scenario kind of person as well, but I just wanted

844
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:05,440
S8: to know how I can deal with this.

845
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,160
S1: Great question Lee.

846
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,600
S2: It is a great question. And sometimes claustrophobia. Like a

847
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,040
S2: lot of phobias. Sometimes you might need professional help to

848
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,439
S2: work through some of that. But the, the baseline of

849
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,880
S2: it is this that you can, you can do a

850
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,520
S2: couple of things with your brain to tell your brain

851
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,440
S2: to recall all the times that you've been in that

852
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,120
S2: place before. And how many times did that end badly

853
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,359
S2: for you? Like if it's an elevator, how many times

854
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,160
S2: did it plunged? How many times did I fall to

855
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,560
S2: my death? How many times was there no oxygen? And

856
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,359
S2: you're going to say, wait, every time I've ever been

857
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,040
S2: in there, it came out okay. It worked out all right.

858
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,200
S2: And so then you can start saying, I know that

859
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,319
S2: when I go in there, it's not the walls are

860
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,040
S2: not going to close in on me. And I know

861
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,799
S2: that the doors are going to open. There's still going

862
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,799
S2: to be oxygen. The cable is going to hold. You

863
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,720
S2: can start to run the play in your mind as

864
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,879
S2: if it worked out positively. And you can also then

865
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,239
S2: start to challenge the feelings that you have. I know

866
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,040
S2: I'm feeling anxious, but I'm feeling anxious because I have

867
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,120
S2: a story in my head that tells me I'm uncomfortable

868
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,700
S2: in tight spaces, but I can then tell myself a

869
00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:07,140
S2: different story that I know that door is going to

870
00:44:07,140 --> 00:44:08,660
S2: open in a few minutes. I know that I can

871
00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:11,260
S2: just divert my attention to another part of my brain.

872
00:44:11,260 --> 00:44:13,020
S2: I can think, oh, what are five things I can

873
00:44:13,020 --> 00:44:14,899
S2: see in this elevator? What are four things I can

874
00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:16,580
S2: feel in this elevator? What are the three things I

875
00:44:16,580 --> 00:44:19,819
S2: can touch in this elevator? And you can divert neural

876
00:44:19,820 --> 00:44:22,860
S2: energy and metabolic resources to something else to make your

877
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:25,899
S2: mind go to a different place than the panic and

878
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:28,180
S2: the fear. That's a really good grounding technique. They call

879
00:44:28,180 --> 00:44:30,540
S2: it that five, four, three, two one, where you can

880
00:44:30,540 --> 00:44:33,980
S2: make yourself think about five different things and use your senses,

881
00:44:33,980 --> 00:44:36,620
S2: and that'll help you overcome that claustrophobia feeling.

882
00:44:36,820 --> 00:44:39,780
S1: With the eye movement, closing eyes and eye movement help

883
00:44:39,780 --> 00:44:41,100
S1: in that situation too.

884
00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:43,900
S2: It might. And again, I'm not a I'm not I

885
00:44:43,900 --> 00:44:47,100
S2: haven't practiced that in that environment because I'm not claustrophobic, thankfully.

886
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:49,819
S2: But but it might also be startling if you close

887
00:44:49,820 --> 00:44:51,940
S2: your eyes, because then you could be surprised by the movement.

888
00:44:51,940 --> 00:44:53,460
S2: So just experiment with that.

889
00:44:53,460 --> 00:44:57,859
S1: Maybe I wonder if. And thank you, Carla. Um, I

890
00:44:57,860 --> 00:45:00,940
S1: wonder if agoraphobia would be the same thing, you know,

891
00:45:01,230 --> 00:45:01,950
S1: instead of tight.

892
00:45:01,989 --> 00:45:02,629
S2: Spaces.

893
00:45:02,670 --> 00:45:05,390
S1: I can't go out of my house, you know? And

894
00:45:05,870 --> 00:45:08,070
S1: if I go out, there's bad things going to happen.

895
00:45:08,070 --> 00:45:11,630
S1: Would that would your, uh, brain surgery help?

896
00:45:11,950 --> 00:45:15,990
S2: I think so. And again, I'm not a psychiatrist, but agoraphobia, sometimes,

897
00:45:16,190 --> 00:45:18,870
S2: I think, oftentimes happens in response to some sort of

898
00:45:18,870 --> 00:45:22,150
S2: trauma or tragedy that's happened to someone. And so there's a,

899
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:24,910
S2: there's a component of it that's, that's related to understanding

900
00:45:24,910 --> 00:45:28,150
S2: what happened, where you got stuck and all of those things. But,

901
00:45:28,190 --> 00:45:31,190
S2: but in general terms, I think rehearsing the good, positive

902
00:45:31,230 --> 00:45:34,230
S2: possible outcome is going to lead you to a better outcome.

903
00:45:35,110 --> 00:45:37,509
S1: So many calls here. Thank you. Sorry we didn't get

904
00:45:37,510 --> 00:45:39,430
S1: to more of you, but I really wanted to spend

905
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:43,910
S1: this time with Doctor Warren to hear more about what

906
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:47,390
S1: the change in his life. Because you have you've seen

907
00:45:47,390 --> 00:45:49,710
S1: this work in your own life. That's why you wrote

908
00:45:49,710 --> 00:45:50,710
S1: about it, right?

909
00:45:51,070 --> 00:45:52,150
S2: Yep. That's right.

910
00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:55,870
S1: Yeah. And if you go to the website, chris.org, you'll

911
00:45:55,870 --> 00:45:58,950
S1: see that new book, The Life Changing Art of Self

912
00:45:58,950 --> 00:46:04,570
S1: Brain surgery, but actor Lee Warren forwarded by Doctor Daniel. Amen.

913
00:46:04,969 --> 00:46:09,010
S1: Find out more again at Chris Fabry dot doctor Warren,

914
00:46:09,010 --> 00:46:11,170
S1: God bless you, friend. Thanks for being with us today.

915
00:46:11,489 --> 00:46:13,170
S2: Thank you Chris. God bless you, my friend.

916
00:46:13,930 --> 00:46:17,210
S1: And as I mentioned just a minute ago, Holy Week

917
00:46:17,210 --> 00:46:20,330
S1: next week we're going to talk about the passion of Jesus.

918
00:46:20,330 --> 00:46:23,610
S1: We've got doctor De Rossi. Everybody loves doctor De Rossi,

919
00:46:23,650 --> 00:46:26,649
S1: and she's going to have some poetry that will take

920
00:46:26,650 --> 00:46:31,450
S1: us to that, to Gethsemane in preparation for the Cross

921
00:46:31,489 --> 00:46:35,130
S1: on Good Friday, but also Nancy DeMoss, Wolgemuth. And we're

922
00:46:35,130 --> 00:46:37,970
S1: going to start the week with a tribute to Doctor

923
00:46:37,969 --> 00:46:42,169
S1: John Perkins. Let justice roll down. Don't miss it. Coming

924
00:46:42,170 --> 00:46:47,090
S1: up on Monday. Websites. Chris Fay relevant. And our program

925
00:46:47,090 --> 00:46:50,130
S1: is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody

926
00:46:50,170 --> 00:46:52,569
S1: Bible Institute. Have a great weekend.