S1: Hope for parents of prodigals is straight ahead on building
S1: relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S2: You have to realize this is a spiritual battle, and
S2: not only do we need to stand in the gap
S2: for our children and pray in a way we never
S2: have in the power of Jesus, but we also got
S2: to dig deep with God and partner with him so
S2: he can sustain us through it.
S1: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S1: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S1: award winning author and speaker Lane Lawson Craft will present
S1: a battle plan for parents of prodigals.
S3: If you go to building relationships, you'll see two resources
S3: from our guests that go together. One is Warfare Parenting,
S3: which is a daily battle plan to fight for your child.
S3: The other is the parents battle plan warfare strategies to
S3: win back your prodigal. You'll find those at building relationships.
S3: And Gary, I know this topic is on the minds
S3: of an awful lot of parents today.
S4: You are absolutely right, Chris. Over the last 2 or
S4: 3 years, I've had so many parents in my office,
S4: particularly struggling with this whole thing of prodigals, adult children
S4: who are making decisions that are breaking their hearts. But
S4: so I'm excited about our conversation today. I think it's
S4: going to help not only parents who have prodigals, but
S4: also parents, because all of us could use some help
S4: in parenting, whether it's with our younger children or our
S4: adult children.
S3: Well, let me introduce our guest. Layne Lawson Kraft is
S3: a best selling author. She hosts the podcast Warfare Parenting.
S3: She and her husband, Steve, have been married almost 40 years.
S3: She's a mom, of course, and now a grandmother. And
S3: her featured resources today, as I mentioned, warfare, parenting, and
S3: the parent's battle plan. You can find out more at
S3: Building Relationships.
S4: Well, welcome to Building Relationships.
S2: Oh, thank you so much. What an urgent message, isn't it,
S2: for our parents and grandparents?
S4: Yes, absolutely. I'm looking forward to our conversation. So let's
S4: start with your story. You and your husband, Steve, because
S4: in one of your books, you write about the struggles
S4: you all had, and you say you make the statement,
S4: the best money you ever spent was for counseling. This
S4: apparently was when you and Steve were having some real
S4: struggles in your own marriage. Talk about that.
S2: Absolutely. And I thank you for for mentioning that because
S2: as we get further in this interview, you will see
S2: that this resurrected marriage, and that's what we call it, uh,
S2: is the anchor that held us together when our three
S2: children were prodigals. So yes, we were entrepreneurs. We got
S2: out of college. We started our own businesses separately. Uh,
S2: life started layering. I had two miscarriages, then three children
S2: in a row and about 17 years in the marriage.
S2: We were living on opposite ends of the house and
S2: we were really about to divorce. But I love to
S2: say we were too broke to divorce, so that was
S2: the only thing that kept us together, was we couldn't
S2: afford two separate households. Uh, what was very interesting was
S2: Steve was the exact age that when his parents divorced,
S2: when we were making this decision and I came from
S2: a baby of five, my parents were uneducated, but they
S2: loved us large and just a very great upbringing. So
S2: we had two very unique environments of growing up and experiences.
S2: So all I'm going to get to is this. We
S2: were living religious. We were doing all the right things.
S2: We went to church, I, I taught Bible study, I
S2: sang on Praise Team. Steve and I were in the choir,
S2: but religion was failing us. Our marriage was dead. I
S2: used to say to my best friends, I love to
S2: hate this guy I'm married to. I mean, it was
S2: dark and it was desperate. Um, but what we did
S2: decide was if this guide that we've been serving in
S2: kind of a religious check the box way is real,
S2: could we maybe believe, um, we both were pretty successful.
S2: And I like to say we both were pretty good looking. Uh,
S2: we knew that if we did indeed divorce, that we
S2: wouldn't stay single. And it dawned on us that maybe
S2: this God we knew, we thought we knew, but wanted
S2: to really know better. Could he help us start again
S2: from scratch? And that was the title of the book
S2: Start Again from scratch. So we grabbed each other's hands
S2: and fell to our knees and said, God, we've been
S2: in a 17 year old bad dance. We've done things
S2: horribly to each other. There's resentment. But God, if you're
S2: for real, will you come down and touch us and
S2: help us find a way to love again? And y'all,
S2: I mean, it was unbelievable. We looked at each other
S2: immediately after that prayer and tears were rolling down. And
S2: when I say we looked at each other, we looked
S2: at each other differently. Instantly. We didn't have that. I
S2: love to hate you and all that. It was just
S2: an instant experience with God.
S4: God does miracles, right?
S2: Yes, yes.
S4: Well, you know, I hope the listeners today are hearing that,
S4: particularly those that are going through real struggles, because I
S4: have seen you've seen through the years not only your
S4: own experience and my experience with my wife, but also
S4: scores and scores of other couples who really were just
S4: feeling like it's never going to work. We're we're too different.
S4: And we were just not getting along. But whenever we
S4: turn to God honestly, openly and asking God to do
S4: work in our hearts, he wants to. He loves us.
S4: He ordained marriage. He wants to save us, save marriages.
S4: So thanks for sharing your own struggles there.
S2: After that experience, we knew that we needed help to
S2: learn how to walk a different dance. And and so
S2: we really, truly believe in Christian counseling. And we also
S2: believe in going to the same counselor. Uh, I would
S2: go in on Mondays. He would go in on Wednesdays,
S2: and then we would do it together on Fridays. And again, remember,
S2: we had no money. So we went to a wonderful
S2: Christian place that based it on your income and worked
S2: with us until we did have the foundation and the
S2: counseling tools to make this marriage work in combination with
S2: partnering with God.
S4: Yeah, yeah, We always have a role to play in
S4: the issue. Yes. Yeah. That's great. And Christian counseling can
S4: obviously make a tremendous difference in that. Now, after this
S4: marriage turnaround, you raised your children in a Christian home
S4: with biblical values. But as a parent, you discovered we
S4: can't control our adult children's choices. Talk about that.
S2: Well, don't we love to believe we can, right? I mean, yes,
S2: so we got kind of caught up in that initially,
S2: but then we realized we had to separate ourselves from
S2: their behavior. That's when the big moment of Aha came
S2: to us, that when we began to separate our children's
S2: choices and behaviors, we started realizing that there was a
S2: spiritual element in this. It goes back to John 1010
S2: where it says, the enemy comes to seek, kill and destroy.
S2: And we realized that our children were getting sucked up
S2: in this dark and evil, evil culture. And that was
S2: when we really realized it's beyond them just being rebellious
S2: or battling some negative emotions.
S4: So I think you said earlier that really all three
S4: of your children at one point were prodigals. Is that correct?
S2: That's correct. And they all did have very unique challenges.
S2: And if you don't mind, I'd love to share with
S2: you kind of in sequence how it happened. Uh, my
S2: eldest child took the longest, and we'll end with him.
S2: So my daughter Kaylee was my only girl, and she
S2: was born very early and and had health challenges a
S2: lot of her life. But about age 17 or 18,
S2: she started feeling like a lot of young women that
S2: she didn't fit in, that she wasn't as pretty as
S2: the others. And, um, she was at a Bible study
S2: one night and they left, and she was with a friend,
S2: and she began to confess to this friend that she
S2: was hearing voices in her head that life would be
S2: better without her in it, and she was sobbing. And
S2: this friend, praise the Lord, grabbed her hands and they
S2: began to pray, and Kaylee said that there was a
S2: warmth from her head to her toes, and she knew
S2: it was God, because the tears dried up and she
S2: began to feel such a release from these just terrible
S2: voices in her head. And that began her turnaround. And
S2: now she helps so many others. You know, we've got
S2: suicide rates and depression rates and anxiety rates among among
S2: our young children, and she's been able to really help
S2: those with that. And then there's Lawson. And Lawson, uh,
S2: is a wonderful, sweet man. And he went through a
S2: very dark time. He kind of got into these kind
S2: of walkthrough concerts, these concerts that you take a lot
S2: of drugs and you literally are kind of like a zombie.
S2: He was into drugs and alcohol and it was really
S2: a tough, rough time. Uh, what happened with him was
S2: a very unique battle. Uh, the enemy we feel like
S2: did a full on assault for Lawson. There was a
S2: 24 hour period that Lawson could have died. And when
S2: I mean that, I mean physically died. He fell downstairs.
S2: He aspirated. He a lot of things. He he he
S2: went to a neighbor's house, and he hit Lawson in
S2: the face where he had a a cut that required
S2: plastic surgery. What happened was very incredible. Steve, my husband
S2: went down to check on him. I had an option
S2: for Steve to go check on him, and Steve stayed
S2: with him for a lot of this battle. And Lawson
S2: woke up, y'all. He was 24, 25 years old in
S2: his father's arms. And he said, I am so sorry.
S2: I will never, ever have another day that I don't
S2: remember every second. And so that touch of God saving
S2: him from that demonic attack, you know, changed him forever.
S2: And now he helps young men that battle a lot
S2: of these pressures. And then Steven is my wonderful eldest child.
S2: He saw something about age 12 at a neighbor's house.
S2: It was porn. And he believes, as he looks back,
S2: that that was the gate that the enemy used to
S2: really the next 15 years was drugs, alcohol, womanizing. And
S2: his story is most powerful to me because 15 years
S2: he made self-destructive choices. He he lived in the pit
S2: and he was at a party, y'all high on cocaine
S2: and was calling an Uber, and the Uber driver picked
S2: him up. And it happened to be a pastor from
S2: another country trying to raise money for his church. And
S2: he said, I feel like I need to pray for you, Stephen.
S2: And Stephen said, mom, I knew I was high. But
S2: when he started praying, the presence of God came in
S2: so heavy in this Uber car that it pressed me
S2: to the floorboard, and I began to cry and beg
S2: him to quit praying. And he said, I knew, mom.
S2: I knew it was the presence of God coming in
S2: to rescue me. And again, this was a touch of
S2: God that no man can dispute. And that was the
S2: beginning of Stephen's journey of healing and getting well again.
S4: You shared with us, uh, the three children and something
S4: of the nature of what they went through and how
S4: the satanic attacks upon their lives, trying to pull them
S4: into lifestyles that were obviously not Christian. So, uh, as
S4: they went through all of this, uh, through these various years,
S4: was there a point in your own life dealing with
S4: all this that you experienced? You know, deep pain or
S4: struggle or thoughts? What what was going on in your
S4: heart and mind while while they were involved in this
S4: kind of lifestyle?
S2: Well, I can tell you my heart was broken a
S2: million times. You know, I would think that they would
S2: make a change and they didn't. And, uh, I was
S2: very grateful. I'm so glad we started with the marriage resurrection.
S2: Because once you've tasted and seen that power in your life,
S2: you can believe it for others. And so that was
S2: the anchor for Steve and I, as we continue to
S2: watch our children under this influence of the dark world,
S2: that our children with technology and phones and all the
S2: things that they that they are exposed to, we began
S2: to make a a plan that we were going to
S2: stand united. You know how kids love to, her, you know. Say,
S2: mom says. And dad says so in the lowest point
S2: when we were just going, are our kids ever going
S2: to turn around? We realized that and and we addressed it.
S2: And then we decided that, you know, it says in
S2: the scripture, A house divided will certainly fail. And and
S2: that's when we really decided we were going to stand together,
S2: and we were going to stand in the gap and
S2: wait for God to make a turnaround for us.
S4: Yeah. Now, lots of times, husbands and wives, uh, have
S4: different responses in how to how they should or ought
S4: to respond. Did you and your husband have some differences
S4: in that?
S2: Absolutely. And it doesn't take long if you're ever around
S2: Steve and I, he's the logic, the reason. And I'm
S2: the energetic, uh, you know, passionate outcry. Uh, I can
S2: remember specifically one night, uh, both both children gotten a
S2: lot of trouble. And I can remember we had at
S2: that time a three story house, and I would I
S2: was crawling up and down the stairs, literally wailing. And
S2: Steve came up to me and he said, is this
S2: a put on? Are you? And I go, no, Steve,
S2: I want these kids to see what a mama's broken
S2: heart looks like. Yes, we reacted very differently, but effectively,
S2: you know, they they knew that dad would always be
S2: the one that logically, scientifically tried to do it. And
S2: then they also knew that I was passionate about helping
S2: them get out of these pits.
S4: Yeah, yeah. So in your book, you talk about warfare
S4: strategy for parents. Explain what that means and how that
S4: worked out in your own situation.
S2: Well, again, that was the big aha moment when we
S2: realized we were battling much more than a kid slamming
S2: the door, or even a kid flipping another car under
S2: alcohol influence. We realized there was a dark army to seek,
S2: kill and destroy these children, and we knew that Jesus
S2: had given us the victory, but we had to really
S2: armor up. We became warrior parents, and we began to
S2: dig deeper and find ways in the spirit that we
S2: could help our children find protection and provision until they
S2: turn their lives around.
S4: And the whole thing of spiritual battle. A lot of
S4: parents in today's culture, that's a strange thing for them,
S4: the spiritual dimension to this, you know, they they blame drugs,
S4: they blame a lot of other things in culture that
S4: led their children away. But as Christians, we know we
S4: are in a spiritual battle, right?
S2: Absolutely. And I think we got to the point that
S2: we had nothing to lose, right? I mean, once we
S2: realized that we're in a spiritual battle, then we kind
S2: of knew, man, we're going full in. We're going to
S2: plead the blood of Jesus over these kids. We're going
S2: to dig deeper in a personal way ourselves so that
S2: we can stand strong in the battle. It was powerful
S2: because we also realized our authority in this and our
S2: identity because, again, you know, 15 years is a long
S2: time to watch a kid make choice after choice that
S2: was self-destructive or that was destroying his destiny. You have
S2: to realize this is a spiritual battle. And not only
S2: do we need to stand in the gap for our
S2: children and pray in a way we never have in
S2: the power of the blood of Jesus, but we also
S2: got to dig deep with God and partner with him
S2: so he can sustain us through it.
S4: Yeah. So what's the difference between warfare strategy and and
S4: the traditional parenting models or methods that that we're familiar with?
S2: Well, I think that's what makes both of these books unique,
S2: because I absolutely identify that we've got to do some
S2: things in the natural. Right. I mean, we've got to
S2: emulate the behaviors that we want our children to do.
S2: I mean, we've got to live the life, too. We
S2: also have got to have boundaries. You know, we can't
S2: just sit there and allow them to live in chaos
S2: and rebellion. So I do believe with everything in me,
S2: this is if I y'all could see my hands. I've
S2: got one half of a circle in the physical and
S2: then the other half in the spiritual. But the spiritual
S2: will always, always override because it does take the power
S2: of God. It does take the power of God to
S2: bring prodigals back around. Only God can touch a heart
S2: and turn it around. And so that is the difference.
S2: We've got to rely on the spiritual element much more,
S2: and be aware of the spiritual element than anything else.
S4: And allowing God as you see it, to build into
S4: us the kind of character and lifestyle that we would
S4: like to see in our children. You know, one of
S4: the questions I ask myself along the way, when we
S4: were raising our two children about different issues, I asked myself,
S4: what if my children turn out to be like me?
S4: What if they drive a car the way I drive
S4: a car? What if they treat their spouse the way
S4: I treat mine? What if they. And right on down
S4: the line. And I made some really significant changes through
S4: the years by simply asking that question. Uh, because, you know,
S4: we we are called upon to model what we say
S4: we believe. You know the lifestyle we believe God wants
S4: us to have. So I think that whole thing of
S4: you use the word emulate for them what we would
S4: like to see happening in their lives.
S2: I used to have a sign on my refrigerator that said,
S2: you can do what you see me do, and you
S2: can say what you see me and hear me say.
S2: And boy, was that a litmus test for me as
S2: a mama. Yes.
S4: Yep yep yep. Absolutely. So I think I like the
S4: emphasis you make, you know? Yes, God wants to help us.
S4: God can do things we can't do. But God also
S4: expects to work in us and through us as parents.
S4: So there are young prodigals. There are adult prodigals. Is
S4: there a common theme to those journeys?
S2: I think the common theme would be the culture, the media,
S2: the influences like we've never seen before. I say all
S2: the time we're a click away. Our children, whether they're
S2: 15 or 50 or a click away from making that
S2: self-destructive choice or that, you know, addiction, reigniting that, or
S2: looking at things we shouldn't or receiving things. So I
S2: would say the common theme to both is just the opportunity,
S2: the absolute ease to get into evil with without any effort.
S4: Yeah, I think all parents would agree with what you've
S4: just said. It's a totally different world from a past generation,
S4: you know, in raising children. So talk talk to the
S4: listener who has a young prodigal. They're still living in
S4: the home. They're still young. They're not out of high
S4: school yet. What's the first step that they they might
S4: take in a process of being taken a warfare strategy?
S2: Yes. And again, I think the first thing is just
S2: to To recognize that you indeed are in a spiritual
S2: battle and spiritual warfare of your child. Secondly, I would
S2: ask a parent, are you praying for your child? Because
S2: if you're not praying for your child, then who is?
S2: So I really not say that out of condemnation. I
S2: say it out of conviction. And then, of course, you know,
S2: I believe with everything in me, when I started integrating
S2: the power of the blood of Christ in my prayers,
S2: that it just took it to a new level. And
S2: another thing I would say with a young prodigal, where
S2: I think I failed the most was Steve, and my
S2: eldest was the first real prodigal. And I think as
S2: a Christian mom, I thought I was protecting him from
S2: the world by not really talking about all of the
S2: things they could get into. So if you haven't started
S2: those conversations, it's never too late. You know, you can
S2: sit down with your 12, 14, 15 year old and say, listen,
S2: I don't think we've ever talked about, man. The pressures
S2: you're under and just start a conversation. You will immediately
S2: see a shift in that prodigal, because they will see
S2: that you really do get where they are.
S4: Yeah. I think conversation is something that sometimes parents don't
S4: know how to initiate or struggle with, how to bring
S4: up the topic, or where to bring up the topic,
S4: and not waiting until they, the child, is displaying, you know,
S4: wrong behavior. Well, I remember when my son was a teenager,
S4: a young teenager. I went down once a month on
S4: Saturday night to the juvenile detention center and played ping
S4: pong with the young man in there and then, you know,
S4: had conversations with him. I started taking him with me.
S4: You know, he wasn't drinking or anything. I just took
S4: him with me. And on the way home after we would,
S4: I'd say, you know, Derrick, think about it that kids
S4: your age and under alcohol, he did something that was
S4: wrong has got him in this situation. Yeah, just just
S4: planting seeds like that. Different conversations. And I think sometimes
S4: it takes a book or some ideas for parents to
S4: realize or to instigate, uh, meaningful conversation, you know, with
S4: their children and listening to the children as a part
S4: of talking. Right? I mean, it's a part of a conversation.
S4: It's not just you talking to them. It's letting them
S4: ask you questions.
S2: Yes. That is so powerful and true.
S1: This is the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
S1: He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, The
S1: Five Love Languages. You can take an easy assessment of
S1: your love language and see our featured resources today at
S1: Five Love Languages. Com Lane Lawson Craft has written Warfare
S1: Parenting A Daily Battle Plan to Fight for Your Child
S1: and the parents Battle plan Warfare Strategies to Win back
S1: Your prodigal. Just go to five Love languages.
S3: Lane. Just before the break, you were talking about having
S3: a conversation. I think there's a lot of Christian parents
S3: listening who are afraid to have the conversation because they
S3: want to know what's going on in their son or
S3: daughter's life, and yet at the same time, they don't
S3: want to know. They want to believe that everything is okay.
S3: They want to believe, you know, God's in control here.
S3: He's going to have his way and the child's life.
S3: And so it's hard. It's difficult when you hear some
S3: of the things, the stresses that they're under and the
S3: things that they're exposed to. It's really difficult to hear
S3: that talk to that parent who who feels that way.
S2: Yes. I call that digging our heads in the sand.
S2: I absolutely challenged parents today to be courageous and it
S2: is hard. I'll never forget having to talk the words
S2: that I never dreamed I'd have to say about pictures
S2: coming into their phone, or them sending out pictures. These
S2: are hard and tough conversations. But again, our culture, our media,
S2: our entertainment, everything else is impacting and influencing their choices.
S2: So we as parents, if we don't stand in there
S2: and open these hard conversations, then we're not equipping them
S2: for you know, how to deal with it. Sadly, you
S2: have to start so much younger with these conversations. I
S2: think the average age for a child to see porn
S2: is now 6 or 7 years old. So we have
S2: got to start talking to our children as Christian parents
S2: because we are stewarding God's child, and we have got
S2: to equip them for the battle themselves. So if we
S2: don't address it, if we don't take that courage and
S2: sit down with them and start hearing the things that
S2: maybe you don't want to hear, but guiding them back,
S2: that's the key. We want to be the ones that
S2: guide them back with the right knowledge, you know, with
S2: the right conversations.
S4: Yeah. My strong conviction is if parents do not open
S4: conversations with their children about these issues early on, they're
S4: not going to come to you and bring up the
S4: topic because in their minds, well, I don't know. You know,
S4: they're wrestling with the whole thing themselves, but they're not
S4: going to initiate the conversation. But if you bring it up,
S4: then they will realize, oh, it's okay to talk about this.
S4: And so they will come to you when they're struggling
S4: two weeks or two months or two years down the road.
S4: So yeah, conversations are so important. Now you emphasize the
S4: importance of prayer and spiritual armor during the fight for
S4: your child. So how does your warfare parenting movement, as
S4: it were, contribute to the larger spiritual awakening in families?
S2: Well, I think we've all seen that the family is
S2: under attack. We've got high divorce rates. I think the
S2: latest Barna research showed that Christian marriages don't survive any
S2: more than a non-Christian marriage. Then we also have, I believe,
S2: a statistic that's unbelievable, but I think it's close to 40%
S2: of children being born today are being born without a
S2: mom and dad. Uh, and most of these don't even
S2: get married. So the enemy is already trying to destroy
S2: God's design for family. and his second on salt attack
S2: are these children. And what I also want to share
S2: today is these assaults, I believe are destiny changers. Meaning,
S2: you know, it says that God has a plan, a
S2: a wonderful plan for all of us. And Jesus said
S2: he died to give us an abundant life. Well, I
S2: believe with everything in me, the enemy is out to
S2: get these kids early, get them into depression where maybe
S2: they make wrong choices, maybe get them addicted to something that,
S2: you know, spirals them down. I, I believe with everything
S2: in me that parents today we must get our spiritual
S2: armor together and we must learn to partner with God. First.
S4: Reflect back on what would it look like in a
S4: Christian home when the parents are taking the spiritual part
S4: of life seriously in terms of daily routines in the home.
S4: What does it look like to be bringing the spiritual
S4: part into the daily life of our children when they're younger?
S2: Yes. I think if I had to do it all
S2: over again, I would have probably started reading the Word
S2: of God that I have now, in my later years,
S2: learned to love each word. I would have started letting
S2: them learn to love the word, that we remove this
S2: religious part of it that you have to do, and
S2: you have to read. It really should become a lifestyle.
S2: If you're a parent today and you've got children, I
S2: would think that the most important thing is that they
S2: see you reading maybe your little devotion every morning with
S2: your coffee. Maybe they see you take food to someone
S2: that's sick. Start these small deposits in your own lifestyle
S2: so that your children start to recognize what kindness is.
S2: You know what empathy is. All of those things continue
S2: to build again. I really believe that learning that the
S2: Word of God is like an instruction book. It's not
S2: rules for you to follow and maybe fall short of.
S2: It's an instruction book that God loved you so much.
S2: He said, this is the way to live so that
S2: you can live in the best purposes that I have
S2: for you.
S4: Yeah. What is the role of the church in partnering
S4: with parents in the raising of children?
S2: Well, it's significant and I believe that we are missing
S2: the mark. I don't see enough family ministries going, you know,
S2: 2020 really changed the dynamics of everything. We're all having
S2: to use new models. I believe that the church must
S2: step up. We must help these single mothers. We with
S2: these kids, we must empower and equip parents on ways
S2: to tackle what our kids are hearing and seeing and
S2: being exposed to. I think the church plays a vital part,
S2: and my hope and dream is that one day, every
S2: church in America will have a warfare parenting small group.
S2: Use these books as curriculums to bring parents that love
S2: the Lord, but their kids are in a battle and
S2: they can come in and pray together and build a
S2: community of faith and learn, you know, different ways to
S2: tackle these things that they are challenged with today.
S4: You know, I think, of course, churches are different, individual
S4: churches are different. But the churches that have programs geared
S4: to children of all ages where the church is complimenting.
S4: You know what they're getting in the home to me
S4: is a is a powerful ministry of the church. We
S4: have folks who are in churches where you don't have
S4: a children's ministry. You don't have a youth ministry. Can
S4: I challenge you to do what you can to stimulate
S4: that and get that started in your church? Because the
S4: parents are the key influencers. But those kind of programs
S4: in the churches can also have a tremendous positive impact
S4: on our children.
S2: Yes, they can. And and, you know, I think probably
S2: the greatest challenge on a personal level when I had
S2: these prodigals was I felt so isolated at the time.
S2: I published a national magazine in every bookstore in America
S2: and Canada with covers like Dolly Parton and, uh, many
S2: times and the Duck Dynasty women, women of significance in
S2: our culture, but had faith as a root that is
S2: so important to create a place where a Christian parent
S2: doesn't feel like they're walking this journey alone.
S4: Yeah, well, let's say that a parent has a prodigal child,
S4: and they are involved in any number of things that
S4: are non-biblical. How can the parent of that adult I'm
S4: thinking of adult children now. How can that parent stay
S4: connected with them, um, without condoning their their sinful behavior?
S2: Well, I say that's probably one of the toughest parts, really,
S2: because it is an adult child. And we say to ourselves,
S2: they should know better, right? So we sometimes in human
S2: nature just want to, like I said, cut them off
S2: until they turn around. But what I have found is
S2: that unconditional love is really the healing balm for many families.
S2: And what I mean by that. Yes, you don't have
S2: to love their choices or their lifestyles, but I do think.
S2: Reaching out to them out of like from my perspective,
S2: my heart, my. The mother's heart, you know, reach out
S2: to them, maybe by a letter and just say, I
S2: don't know if I ever really told you about how
S2: wonderful it was the day we brought you home. Make
S2: good deposits, showing them the love that you truly have
S2: for them. And again, I love to tell parents the
S2: words I'm sorry can change everything. You know, I'm sorry
S2: that we're here. You're not saying you're sorry for maybe how,
S2: you know, you had to put boundaries up. You're saying
S2: I'm sorry that we've ended up here. Can we try
S2: to meet for coffee? Can we discuss how wonderful all
S2: of those past times were and find a way to
S2: start over.
S4: What is the role of boundaries and what? And can
S4: you give us some examples of the kind of boundaries
S4: that we might, might establish for, for their benefit and
S4: our benefit?
S2: Yes. I think it was probably the toughest thing for me,
S2: because it took me many years to realize that I
S2: was playing a part of their wrong choices, meaning I
S2: was continuing to give them, you know, a weekly allowance.
S2: I was replacing the car that they flipped. I had
S2: to realize, do I want to be a part of
S2: their self-destructive, or do I want to make it consequential?
S2: None of us. You make changes until we feel a
S2: little pain. And so tough love. Yes, I had to
S2: show tough love. I had to cut them off financially.
S2: I had to alienate myself at some points, just to
S2: show them that I could not accept the choices they
S2: were making. I'm not going to be mamby pamby about it.
S2: It's it's one of the hardest things as a parent
S2: to do. But again, I like to say, I don't
S2: want you to have regrets. I think if I had
S2: not done the tough love and continued to supply the
S2: necessities to to make these choices in their lives that
S2: were not the best for them, then I would have
S2: had a lot of regrets.
S4: The whole thing of consequences for wrong behavior. Even when
S4: God forgives us, we still suffer the consequences of what
S4: we did if it was wrong. I think a lot
S4: of times Christians have the idea that, you know, God
S4: forgives and everything is perfect. Uh, but but that's not true.
S4: You just you mentioned, for example, uh, wrecking a car
S4: and under the influence of alcohol. Uh, God can forgive
S4: us for what we did wrong, but the car's still wrecked,
S4: you know. And so how do we, uh, do what
S4: God does? Follow his example and let our children suffer
S4: the consequences of their behavior. Any particular illustration come to
S4: your mind of that with one of your children? Of
S4: letting them suffer the consequences of their behavior?
S2: Yes. And and again, it's painful. Right? But it is
S2: one of the best ways for them to, I like
S2: to say, stew in it a minute, you know, just
S2: sit there and realize not only how they've hurt themselves,
S2: but the people that love them. Yeah. So yes, it's tough.
S4: What was one of the first signs that you saw
S4: in one of your prodigals? Uh, making a turn away
S4: from a destructive lifestyle?
S2: I think I would like to use Steven Stephen because
S2: it was such a long journey. And when he was
S2: touched by God that that night in the Uber, he
S2: realized the power of God. God became very personal to him.
S2: It wasn't just this thing he read in the Bible
S2: or went to church and worshiped it. It became a
S2: very personal relationship with him. And I started seeing small
S2: steps of just repentance. Um, I can't tell you how
S2: many times he said, you know, in the beginning. Mom,
S2: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. All the pain I've
S2: caused you and daddy and and truly staying in that journey.
S2: You know, we'd heard some of that in the past,
S2: but this time he really marked it, and it was significant.
S4: Earlier, when you're talking about prayer, you talked about the
S4: whole the power of of claiming victory or declaring victory,
S4: even in the midst of spiritual struggles that are still
S4: going on. Talk a bit about that.
S2: Well, it's one of my favorite things to talk about, really,
S2: and I call it the mean time because I call
S2: the mean time. It's when we offer a prayer to God,
S2: turn this kid around, God, please touch him. And then
S2: the waiting. And I talk about how it can get
S2: so mean. In the meantime, you start getting disappointed. You
S2: get discouraged again. Those feelings of guilt or shame or
S2: isolation start coming into you. And so what I say is,
S2: we've got to stand in the Word of God and
S2: declare it for ourselves and for our family and for
S2: our children. And then I, I begin to find promises
S2: from the Lord and and just speak them over our
S2: family and our children, all of these things. See, they
S2: edify and encourage us as parents, but it overflows to
S2: the children until they turn around. I just love the
S2: fact that when we dig deep in the trenches with
S2: God and partner with him and realize it's his battle,
S2: but we're going to partner and do everything in the
S2: physical and in the supernatural spiritual realm. Then God comes
S2: in and we just in the meantime, wait for the
S2: expectantly for him to move on our behalf and for
S2: our children.
S4: Yeah. Let's talk a bit about a prodigal who, in
S4: the midst of their lifestyle, actually dies. It could be
S4: in an accident, you know, or or just physical things
S4: responding to drugs and alcohol or whatever. And that parent
S4: feels guilty. Where do they go from there?
S2: I'm so glad you asked this today because I didn't
S2: want to come across as Pollyanna. I don't believe you
S2: do this and that and you get an outcome. We
S2: certainly see we've got fentanyl poisonings again. We've got suicide
S2: rates that are off the charts. I have a chapter
S2: in the parents battle plan. It's it's when the worst
S2: happens and my heart breaks for any parent that has
S2: outlived their child, that's not the way God designed it.
S2: But I wanted to let them know. I understand that
S2: it happens, right? And I say to parents, we pray
S2: for miracles, for our prodigals or for our children that
S2: are struggling. But you didn't get the miracle you asked
S2: God for, but you are living a miracle. And what
S2: I mean by that is you're able to get up
S2: in the morning and get through the day, and that's
S2: because of God's loving strength in your life. And the
S2: only hope that we all have is the promise from
S2: God and revelations 21 four and it says, you know,
S2: there will be no more sorrow, no more pain when
S2: we get to heaven. And so we have to stand
S2: on that promise of reuniting with that child one day
S2: in heaven. That's the miracle that they get.
S4: You know, sometimes say to parents who sit in my
S4: office and say, what did we do wrong? That our
S4: child turned out this way? And I say to them, well,
S4: ask God. I mean, if you did wrong, God will
S4: show you where you did wrong, and you can confess
S4: that to God, and God will forgive you. But then
S4: let me remind you, God's first two children went wrong.
S4: Adam and Eve. They had a perfect father, and yet
S4: they made poor decisions. So don't take the full responsibility
S4: of your adult children's wrong decisions on yourself. Don't take
S4: the blame for something your adult child is doing. God
S4: gives all of us freedom to follow him or not
S4: to follow him. And we have to give our adult
S4: children that same kind of freedom that they have to
S4: make decisions to follow God or not to follow God.
S4: So it is it's very painful to see parents go
S4: through this. And particularly if a child dies in the
S4: midst of, you know, being a prodigal. So when a
S4: prodigal does return, however, which is what we pray for
S4: and what we hope for, what are some of the
S4: steps toward forgiveness and healing? Uh, in the in the
S4: process of restoring the relationship?
S2: Well, it's not easy and it's not simple. Remember, now,
S2: Steven was 15 years into just making poor choices, and
S2: so I had to make a shift in my own heart.
S2: Originally and initially. And that was to look at him
S2: through God's eyes. I started seeing him as broken, and
S2: when I started doing that, I was able to love
S2: him through a forgiveness that is beyond me. I say
S2: the Holy Spirit is the one that helps us walk
S2: this out. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the
S2: one that helps us forgive. It's very difficult to forgive.
S2: Those that have betrayed us, lied to us, took us
S2: for granted. So one of the first steps, I would
S2: say mom or dad or grandparent or whoever that has
S2: this loved one that has turned around and needs forgiveness,
S2: is to have that eternal lens and that unconditional love
S2: in your heart through the power of the Holy Spirit.
S2: And you know, we mentioned the words I'm sorry again.
S2: You know, I say they're the two most powerful words.
S2: It's not saying you did anything wrong. It's saying, I'm
S2: sorry we're even here. And I'm just so thankful for
S2: this step of reconciliation. And I'm going to forgive you.
S2: And I'm going to love you unconditionally. And that begins
S2: the process of healing.
S4: Forgiveness is not a feeling, is it? It's a choice.
S2: Right?
S5: We can still feel hurt.
S4: We can still be grieved over the lost time and
S4: the lifestyle and all of that. And we can still
S4: feel hurt. We can even feel angry toward them. But
S4: forgiveness is that choice to pardon them. Which is what
S4: exactly what God does for us to pardon them, and
S4: also to remove the barrier that this has created between us,
S4: so that we can, in the future, move to having
S4: a more positive relationship. Yeah, forgiveness is a key issue.
S4: No question about that. Tell us again. You mentioned a
S4: little bit about where your children are today. But but
S4: tell us, since you shared each of them, where are
S4: they today in their journey?
S2: Well, I just want to throw a party, don't you?
S2: Isn't it a time of celebration to to see that
S2: a child that you know was 15 years in a
S2: journey in the pit of hell can be turned around
S2: and not just turned around? All three of my children
S2: are entrepreneurs, like their mom and dad. Stephen, the eldest,
S2: has an insurance brokerage. He's married. He has baby Elle,
S2: who made us la la and Papa first. And we
S2: just found out they're having another one. And then we
S2: have Lawson, who owns his own real estate investment firm
S2: and is a real estate agent. And then my daughter
S2: Kaylee is married and she too has a little boy
S2: that made us Lala and Papa. And now she's having
S2: another one. And she's a fantastic artist and a real
S2: estate agent. And just what's powerful to me is to
S2: see how on fire these three are. Since they had
S2: such a significant experience and personal, intimate touch of God,
S2: they all three are so passionate about helping others find
S2: this too.
S4: Yeah, that's powerful, isn't it? And when you think about
S4: it and look in the New Testament, you know, the apostles,
S4: many of the apostles were people who had a bad background.
S4: Paul himself, who wrote so much of the New Testament,
S4: was openly anti-God before he had his encounter with God.
S4: So it's amazing how God can turn lives around and
S4: and just make things totally different. So absolutely great. Let
S4: me ask you this. Uh, what did God do in
S4: your own life? Living with your children? Who who did
S4: for these years. Little prodigal lives. What? How did God
S4: use that in your own life?
S2: Well, you know, he works a lot out in the fire,
S2: doesn't he? He says, you know, he the only way
S2: to get gold to really shine is to get it
S2: through a fire. Um, he he he really reformed me
S2: from the inside out. I became so deeply surrendered to
S2: him and his wills and his ways because I had
S2: no other place to go. You know, sometimes we think, oh,
S2: we'll just pray like it's the last thing. Really, it
S2: should be the first thing. Sometimes we do that with God, right?
S2: We we try to do everything in the natural and
S2: in our control. But the most pivotal thing God did
S2: through me was to teach me how to literally take
S2: pieces of my life and bring them to the altar
S2: and say, God, I'm bringing this to you. I'm laying
S2: it down so that I know that I know you
S2: are going to orchestrate. You are going to show me
S2: whatever I need to do or know. And it was
S2: so powerful. And and little did I know that all
S2: those tears from that broken heart, that mama's broken heart
S2: for years and years with three prodigals that God would
S2: use me to help thousands of parents and loved ones
S2: find ways to bring their prodigals home and heal their families.
S2: It's amazing.
S4: Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for being with
S4: us today, and thank you for allowing God to use
S4: all the pain and that you went through to now,
S4: as you just said, help so many other people. And
S4: I do believe that our listeners are going to find
S4: these books to be extremely helpful. So thanks for keeping
S4: open to God. And as you said, turning the only
S4: place you really could turn that had any answers and saying,
S4: thanks for being with us today.
S2: Thank you so much.
S3: Once again, the title of our featured resources are the
S3: books by our guest, Lane Lawson Kraft Warfare Parenting A
S3: Daily Battle Plan to Fight for Your child and the parents.
S3: Battle plan warfare strategies to win back your prodigal. Just
S3: go to building relationships to find out more. Again, building relationships.
S4: Next week, pastor and author Chip Ingram is going to
S4: encourage us to choose joy.
S1: Learn how to change your perspective and change your life
S1: in one week. Our thanks to Janice backing and Steve
S1: Wick for their production work on today's program. Building relationships
S1: with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio
S1: in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Thanks for listening.