S1: It is an ongoing battle at times, but also a
S1: destination of keeping your eyes fixed on Jesus and trusting
S1: that as we pursue him, he is going to get
S1: the victory in our lives. It may not be quick,
S1: it's not going to be easy. It's going to require
S1: courage and determination. But there is freedom in this journey.
S2: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S2: Doctor Julie Slattery talks to women about the spiritual battle
S2: around sexuality. Pornography addiction is seen by many as a
S2: men's struggle. But today's conversation will help women who are
S2: caught in an addiction and feel like they'll be stuck
S2: the rest of their lives. Our featured resource is the
S2: book Her Freedom Journey, and it's co-written by our guest today.
S3: Doctor Julie Slattery will join us straight ahead, and you
S3: can find that book at Building Relationships. Dot Us. It's
S3: co-written by Doctor Joyce Garca and the subtitle is A
S3: Guide Out of Porn and Shame to Authentic Intimacy. Again,
S3: find out more at Building relationships.us. And, Gary, before we
S3: get to Doctor Slattery, I think it's important for parents
S3: who might have young children listening to know the content
S3: of today's program might not be suitable for young children,
S3: but the reason we're tackling this tough topic is the
S3: growing number of women who are not finding help in
S3: the church for this issue.
S4: Well, that's true, Chris. I think the church is often
S4: silent on this. And of course, you know, there are
S4: certain places in morning worship services where you wouldn't necessarily
S4: be trying to give individual help on this, but I
S4: do think the churches need to be more aware and
S4: more tuned in to where people can find help in
S4: this area. So I'm excited about our program and also
S4: about this book.
S3: Yes. Well, let me reintroduce Doctor Julie Slattery, who has
S3: been with us many times. She is the president and
S3: co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, a ministry dedicated to reclaiming God's
S3: design for sexuality. She's the host of the weekly podcast
S3: Java with Julie. She's written or co-authored 12 books, including passion, pursuit,
S3: Rethinking Sexuality, and 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask about love, sex,
S3: and Intimacy, and she's a member of the board of
S3: trustees at Moody Bible Institute. She and her husband, Mike,
S3: have three grown sons, and they live in Akron, Ohio.
S3: The featured resource today is the book she co-authored with
S3: Doctor Joyce Skarka titled Her Freedom Journey A Guide Out
S3: of Porn and Shame to Authentic Intimacy. You can find
S3: out more at Building relationships.us.
S4: Well, Doctor Slattery, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S1: Always so good to be with you. Thanks for having me.
S4: You know, you're authentic. Intimacy ministry has been there for
S4: women in all kinds of struggles. Talk about this particular
S4: battle for women and how pervasive you think it is
S4: in our culture.
S1: Well, it certainly has grown over time. I think if
S1: we were to have this conversation ten years ago, we
S1: would say that there was a percentage of the population,
S1: maybe 20% of women who are struggling with pornography, and
S1: we would have been pretty quiet about it, which the
S1: church has traditionally been. I think a lot of people
S1: believe that this is primarily a man's issue and not
S1: a woman's issue. But the statistics would show us that
S1: about 40 to 45% of women are engaging with pornography.
S1: And then when we look at the younger generations, there
S1: was a study that recently came out that looked at
S1: women ages 18 to 35 and found that 72% of
S1: them had looked at pornography within the last six months.
S1: And then if you even go below the age of 18,
S1: teenagers that have access to devices, they're being exposed to
S1: pornography at very young ages. So this is as much
S1: as an issue for women today as it is for men.
S4: Yeah. Yeah. And I think many of our listeners would
S4: not be aware of that. You know, you and Dana
S4: Gray wrote a book a few years ago that addressed
S4: concerns about romance novels and erotica. Are there parallels between
S4: that project and this book?
S1: Yeah. Boy, that's a good question. Yes, we wrote the book,
S1: Pulling Back the Shades about 11, ten, 11 years ago.
S1: And that was really in response to what some might remember,
S1: the 50 Shades of Gray phenomenon. And so that resource
S1: really helped women understand the dangers of erotica, particularly the
S1: 50 Shades of Gray books and movies. And there would
S1: have been some parallel in just talking about an issue
S1: that is pretty taboo. And then also really helping women
S1: understand the spiritual struggle underneath some of these sexual temptations.
S1: But this book is unique in that we're really talking
S1: about pornography, and we're talking about sexual addiction, which exists
S1: among women, particularly young women. And this book also is
S1: in a workbook format, which we're super excited about because
S1: it takes women into God's Word. It helps them reflect
S1: on some of the struggles they're having and what it
S1: looks like to actually find freedom. And it's a great
S1: resource for women to go through in a group format,
S1: where they can find the kind of community and support
S1: that can help them really address this struggle.
S4: Well, I think it's a much needed resource. You know,
S4: your co-author, Doctor Joyce Skarka, was unable to be with
S4: us today. She had a mentor, however, in her own
S4: life who was vulnerable and open about her struggles with pornography.
S4: And that gave Joy the ability to open up about
S4: her own struggles. Is that right? Is that the background?
S1: Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Joy struggled with pornography. When she
S1: was in college, she was a new Christian, and she
S1: went to a Campus Crusade for Christ event, and she
S1: heard a woman get up and share about her struggle
S1: with pornography. And that was the first time Joy had
S1: ever heard a woman say out loud those words, and
S1: immediately she felt like she wasn't alone. And so Joy
S1: went up to that woman, thanked her, shared her own struggle.
S1: And that started just a discipleship process where they met
S1: every week for many months, just at a local coffee
S1: shop and started studying God's Word. And that was a
S1: huge part of Joy's healing and freedom journey. Yeah.
S4: Well, how do you find a person like that who
S4: will not judge you or shame you, but who is
S4: willing to walk with you through the process of finding relief?
S1: Yeah. Boy, that that's a great question. I think, number one,
S1: we pray for that person, for God to bring somebody
S1: in our pathway. I think we look for places like
S1: ministry venues where people are being vulnerable. You know, Joey
S1: knew that she was safe because that other woman went first.
S1: And at our ministry, we have online book studies and
S1: groups where it's made up of of women who are
S1: vulnerable about their struggles. And so we we try to
S1: connect individuals to others who want to help create those spaces.
S1: But I think even within your local church, you know,
S1: look for the woman of God who is vulnerable and
S1: who doesn't have to appear perfect but has wisdom. And
S1: I'd also say that that it's okay to to swing
S1: and miss for the first time. You know, I think
S1: there's sometimes we open up and we share a struggle
S1: and maybe it's not the right fit. And then the
S1: enemy wants us to never share that again. but keep
S1: looking for that person who would say, thank you for
S1: sharing that. Or me too. Like I've got my own struggles,
S1: or I struggle with pornography as well, because I think
S1: when we're honest with what we're dealing with, you're going
S1: to find that so many women around you have similar
S1: struggles and really have a heart to want to engage
S1: in those kinds of authentic conversations.
S4: Julie, can you give us the website of your ministry where, where,
S4: where women might go and and find some direction along
S4: these lines?
S1: Sure. Authentic intimacy. Com and if you look under our resources,
S1: you'll see an online book studies. And we run those quarterly.
S1: So we have people from all over the world that
S1: join those. And they're capped at 12 women. So with
S1: a trained leader, it's just a great way to take
S1: that first step with people who are going to be
S1: vulnerable and even sort of the anonymity of, okay, this
S1: isn't somebody that I'm going to run into at the
S1: grocery store. So that's a good first step for a
S1: lot of women just to just to start talking about
S1: something they don't know how to talk about.
S4: Yeah. I hope our listeners are if you didn't get
S4: that authentic intimacy. Com and click on online books. I
S4: think there are many women, uh, Julie, who are struggling
S4: and they don't know where to turn. They don't even
S4: know the first step. And this might be the first
S4: step for many of them. Mhm.
S1: Yes. That's what we hope and pray for.
S3: Julie, Doctor Skarka writes in the book about being exposed
S3: when she was in the fifth grade at a sleepover.
S3: She saw pornography and it was it had brought some shame.
S3: But as you mentioned a little bit ago when she
S3: went to college, some of the seeds sown earlier became
S3: an addiction. Can you walk us through some more of
S3: Joy's story, and the process that it took for her
S3: to to move toward health?
S1: Um, yeah. So a lot of women's stories. And this
S1: is true of men as well. They're exposed to pornography
S1: at that really young age. And they start using pornography
S1: as a way of coping with life through the teenage
S1: years and high school. That didn't happen with Julie. It
S1: awakened a curiosity when she was in fifth grade. But
S1: when pornography really got a hold on her was her
S1: freshman year of college. Her first week at college, she
S1: was date raped and this just sent her into a
S1: spiral of depression. She didn't want to leave her room, fear,
S1: all kinds of confusion. And so she turned to pornography
S1: to try to make sense of what had happened to her.
S1: And that's when the enemy really got a foothold in
S1: her heart. And this became an enslaving addiction. And she
S1: wasn't able to tell anybody about the rape that she
S1: had suffered or what she was struggling with. And then
S1: she met Jesus shortly thereafter and became a Christian. But
S1: like a lot of Christians, she didn't know what to
S1: do with with this sexual pain, with the questions and
S1: the shame. And so she started growing in her faith,
S1: but didn't know how to integrate it into some of
S1: the struggles that she was having related to sexuality. And again,
S1: that's that's very common. There are so many Christians who
S1: love the Lord, but they feel like their pornography struggle
S1: or their sexual wounds are kind of compartmentalized, and they
S1: don't know how to integrate the love of God and
S1: the freedom of God into that aspect of their lives.
S1: And so that's why it was so powerful for Joy
S1: to see another Christian who could show her what it
S1: looked like, to take everything she was learning about God,
S1: and integrate it into the questions that she had around sexuality.
S4: Yeah. You know, Julie, we talked about this earlier that
S4: we typically think in terms of porn or pornography being
S4: a problem for men. And of course, you know, I've
S4: observed that through the years, and you gave us some
S4: statistics in terms of women who are now involved in pornography.
S4: Why do you think we have in the past limited
S4: our thinking that this was a man's problem?
S1: Well, I think traditionally it was more predominantly a man's problem.
S1: It wasn't exclusively so. But pornography was created for men
S1: in those in that day and age. You think of
S1: Playboy and Hustler and, you know, the magazines that would
S1: get boys hooked and men hooked on pornography. And men
S1: tend to be more visual in their sexual response. And
S1: so there would be naturally more drawn to pornography the
S1: way it was created in the past. But we have
S1: to understand that pornography is a multi, multi, multi-billion dollar industry.
S1: You know, I read some reports that the porn industry
S1: actually brings in more money than the NHL, the NBA
S1: and the NFL combined. And so they are very strategic
S1: about capturing their audience. And so from what I understand,
S1: you know, several years ago they decided, hey, we've pretty
S1: much saturated the male market. Let's go after the women,
S1: you know, let's go after the kids. And so the
S1: makers of pornography have been very intentional about tailoring pornography.
S1: I mentioned 50 Shades of Grey, which is an example
S1: of that. But tailoring pornography in a way that would
S1: be something that would capture the imagination of women. And
S1: so female pornography often has more of a storyline or
S1: a romance thread, at least initially. And then women have
S1: the same kind of wiring that men do in terms
S1: of the dopamine and the adrenaline and all the amazing
S1: chemicals that God designed to be released during a sexual
S1: encounter that can become very addictive. And so it's both intentional,
S1: but then also the fact that, you know, it kind
S1: of caught us unaware because we weren't thinking that this
S1: would be something that women would be susceptible to, but
S1: they certainly are.
S4: Well, you mentioned earlier the shame that women have Christian
S4: women especially have when they struggle with porn. Uh, address
S4: that issue a bit more, if you will.
S1: Sure. You know, I think men who are struggling with
S1: pornography have shame as well, particularly Christian men who know
S1: that this is not what God's designed for their sexuality is.
S1: So you take that shame and you add on to
S1: it the additional shame that the narrative is really that
S1: women shouldn't struggle with this, that even women shouldn't be sexual.
S1: And so women in general, that struggle more with shame
S1: even around their God given sexuality, and then when it's
S1: being expressed in a way that they know is wrong,
S1: that they know other people would judge them for or
S1: look down on them for, they feel so much shame
S1: that they don't even know who to confess. This to. too.
S1: And women like Joy would sit in a church service
S1: and hear a pastor say, we know a lot of
S1: you men are struggling with pornography. And that statement in
S1: and of itself would create more shame. Like, oh, well,
S1: how about me? Is there something wrong with me? Am
S1: I weird that I'm a woman and I have this struggle?
S1: No one's even acknowledging it. And so? So women who
S1: are struggling with pornography often have layer upon layer when
S1: it comes to shame.
S4: Yeah. Let's back up a little and talk to the
S4: person who maybe thinks pornography is not bad. You know,
S4: from a Christian perspective and from a wholeness perspective. Why
S4: is porn wrong?
S1: Yeah. You know, I'm glad you asked. From both perspectives,
S1: if we look at from a Christian perspective, we've got
S1: to understand and recognize that God created the gift of
S1: sexual expression and sexual intimacy to be something that is
S1: celebrated within the covenant of marriage, and that any time
S1: we are having a sexual experience outside of that covenant relationship,
S1: even if we're with our spouse and we're thinking about
S1: someone else, that we're violating God's standard for sexuality and
S1: his purpose of sexuality. And the Scripture is really clear
S1: about that from a theological perspective. But, Gary, we also
S1: know that when God sets something in place in our world,
S1: when we go against that, there's evil in the world,
S1: the natural order of the world, that even if you
S1: don't believe in God, you're going to experience the consequences
S1: of that. And that's certainly what we see when it
S1: comes to pornography. You know, there are many organizations and
S1: individuals who are speaking out against pornography who don't even
S1: have a faith in God, but they're saying, this is
S1: killing us. You know, pornography fuels the sex trade industry.
S1: You know, it really plays into sex trafficking. The research
S1: shows that the majority of those who are performing in
S1: pornography are doing so without their willing consent. They're often drugged.
S1: So you look at that side of what's happening to
S1: the humanity of the people who are creating pornography, but
S1: you also look at what pornography does to the brain.
S1: And the research consistently shows that heavy use of pornography
S1: will lead to depression, anxiety, alienation and relationship, feelings of shame,
S1: and also often acting out against what you know to
S1: be right or wrong. And so when we look at even,
S1: you know, the kind of abuse that we see happening
S1: in our society, if you tell someone when they're ten
S1: years old, you can look at whatever you want to
S1: look at and you feast on this for years and
S1: years and years, there's a good chance you're going to
S1: end up acting out on it. And so pornography sabotages
S1: intimacy and our relationships and our marriages. It causes sexual dysfunction. Function. So,
S1: you know, I could go on and on and on
S1: and cite how this is harmful for individuals and for society.
S1: There's just nothing good about it.
S5: Yeah.
S4: I'm glad to hear you refer to research and all
S4: in this area, because I think sometimes people simply think, well,
S4: Christians are against anything, you know, everything today. But it's
S4: not just the Christian position on this issue. It's as
S4: you said, it's certainly backed up by research. Now, you
S4: write in the book that porn is not your biggest problem.
S4: What do you mean by that? What do you mean
S4: by that?
S1: Yeah. Like Joy's story indicates, you know, she was using
S1: pornography to deal with the deeper issue of the trauma
S1: she experienced or confusion around sexuality. Some of the lies
S1: that were planted in that event of my body is bad.
S1: Sex is bad. And this is true, almost without exception,
S1: Perception that we end up using pornography to cope with
S1: something that is deeper. And again, the research continues to
S1: show this, that pornography is often used to deal with
S1: negative emotions. It's used to deal with sexual confusion. It
S1: can be used to deal with sexual trauma. It can
S1: be used to deal with alienation and loneliness and boredom.
S1: And so what we really want women to understand is
S1: that you can't just say, I promise I'm never going
S1: to look at porn and then walk away and be free.
S1: We have to invite God into the places that are
S1: causing us to want to look at pornography. What is
S1: the deeper issue going on? And and this is true
S1: for men and women, but healing really comes from being
S1: willing to go to those deeper places that fuel pornography use.
S1: And it may be unique for every woman, but there's
S1: always an underlying issue that needs to be addressed in
S1: order to really feel like you can be free from
S1: using pornography.
S4: And would you say that many times a woman will
S4: not be able to see or understand what the background
S4: is to that behavior without some help outside from a
S4: counselor or someone else who has walked this journey.
S1: Yeah, 100%. Absolutely. You know, I think this is true
S1: of all of us. You know, we all can end
S1: up misusing God's good gifts in a way that just
S1: helps us cope with life. We can misuse food, we
S1: can misuse exercise, we can have codependent relationships. And we
S1: usually can't see that in our own lives. We need
S1: someone else to start helping us peel back the layers
S1: of why we have ended up in patterns that are
S1: not productive and are really harmful. And that's the process
S1: of counseling. It's the process of good community and ultimately
S1: the process of the Holy Spirit. You know, I'm really
S1: thankful that God, in one moment, doesn't expose all the
S1: things in me that need to be fixed, or I
S1: would just be, like, devastated and overwhelmed. He invites us
S1: on a process of saying, all right, here's a problem.
S1: You know, let's let's start to be prayerful and thoughtful
S1: of understanding how we got to that place and how
S1: we actually start pursuing healing. Yeah.
S4: Is there a difference between occasional porn use and addiction
S4: to porn?
S1: Yeah, there definitely is. Um, you know, they both are destructive, but.
S1: And you can be an occasional porn user and still
S1: be addicted. So, you know, for example, if you use
S1: pornography every time you feel rejected, but that rejection comes
S1: only every other week or, you know, not not very often,
S1: it's like you got rejected by a boyfriend or something.
S1: You're still in some ways addicted to pornography, but it's
S1: not a daily addiction. When we talk about addiction, we
S1: look at some classic symptoms of addiction, like tolerance and
S1: for substance abuse, like alcohol and drugs. Usually, tolerance means
S1: you need more of the drug in order to have
S1: the same impact with sexual addiction or pornography addiction. Instead
S1: of needing more, you actually need novelty. You need something
S1: different for your brain to respond with the same level
S1: of chemistry than it did before. And so this is
S1: why a woman might start out reading a racy romance novel,
S1: and a few years later, she finds herself watching very
S1: explicit or violent pornography. And she says, how in the
S1: world did I get here? And you got there because
S1: you developed a tolerance and it was pushing you to
S1: always try something new. And so we look for tolerance,
S1: we look for dependence Again using pornography to deal consistently
S1: with a certain feeling or problem. We also look at
S1: the fact that you can't stop. And again, there there
S1: might be a woman who's like, yeah, I went two
S1: weeks without using pornography, but then you fell back into it.
S1: And so when there's that sense of not being able
S1: to control your behavior or stop, you know, that's a
S1: sign that there is an addictive pattern going. And with
S1: any addiction that's going to be much harder to deal
S1: with and break than just simply something that you occasionally do.
S3: So the freedom that you're talking about is not simply
S3: behavior modification. There is something that needs to go on
S3: on the inside in order to move toward health or wholeness.
S3: That is not simply I'm not going to do that anymore. Right?
S1: Yes, that is so right. And, you know, I've been
S1: in this ministry for the for 12 years now of
S1: helping people navigate sexual issues in the context of the
S1: Christian faith. And if there is one thing I'd say
S1: I've learned and I keep going back to again and again,
S1: is that God doesn't just want to fix our behavior.
S1: You know, he's not just about us getting to the
S1: place where we're avoiding sin. He wants everything surrendered to him. And,
S1: you know, I think so often the message in the
S1: church around sexuality only looks at behavior and only looks
S1: at you need to stop sinning. You need more self-control.
S1: Instead of realizing that God wants us to invite him
S1: into our wounds, into our shame, into our experiences of trauma,
S1: and we find ultimate, lasting freedom when God is in
S1: all those areas of our life, not just in giving
S1: us the strength to resist a sinful behavior.
S2: This is the building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
S2: Thanks for listening and for telling others about our conversations.
S2: When you go to five Love languages.com, you can find
S2: more ways to strengthen your relationships. Just click the resources
S2: tab and you'll find the podcast there and today's featured resource.
S2: Again go to five Love languages.com.
S4: Slattery. What are some of the common things that keep
S4: a woman stuck in pornography instead of finding freedom?
S1: Yeah. You know, I think some of the things that
S1: we've we've talked about that I'd love to just kind
S1: of pull out and name, first of all, if she
S1: is trying to deal with this by herself, it is
S1: virtually impossible for you to just make this decision that
S1: I'm going to get free from this and to do
S1: that all alone. And even you and God, you know,
S1: like God created us to be in community. Our sexual
S1: brokenness often happened in relationship. And so in order to heal,
S1: we really do need to take that step of sharing with,
S1: with another person with, with asking for help with asking
S1: for a supportive community. And so I think women who
S1: feel like they have to keep this a secret, they
S1: don't have a safe place and they just need to
S1: deal with this on their own. They're going to feel stuck.
S1: I think the second thing is, again, just that behavioral
S1: approach where they really believe that this is just an
S1: issue of self-control, and the more they memorize Bible verses
S1: and the more they pray and the more they like order,
S1: their environment like that will take care of the problem.
S1: And self-control is certainly a part of this. You know,
S1: the Holy Spirit gives us the gift of self-control. But
S1: as we've been talking about, there's so much more to
S1: it that there are lies that we believe underneath our
S1: pornography use, that there are often wounds that have not
S1: been healed or even mentioned or addressed that really need attention.
S1: And so we also need to have a healthy view
S1: of what God created sex for, not just reminders of
S1: what he didn't create it for. And so I think
S1: women that try to take that simplistic approach of, I'm
S1: just going to stop may find victory for a short
S1: period of time, but end up falling back into pornography
S1: and feeling worse and more hopeless in the long run.
S4: So it's not just a matter of trying harder not
S4: to be involved in pornography or to avoid pornography. It's
S4: not just a matter of trying harder. We have to
S4: deal with the issues that are promoting and pushing us
S4: in that direction, right?
S1: Yeah. You know, I really love Romans chapter six, seven
S1: and eight because I think it fleshes this out for
S1: us so well. In Romans chapter six, Paul talks about
S1: how there's how there's this ongoing battle between our flesh,
S1: our sinful nature and the life of the Holy Spirit
S1: in us, and we will give ourselves as slaves to
S1: one or the other, either slaves to sin or slaves
S1: to righteousness. And then Paul talks about in Romans chapter
S1: seven how he's tried to do the right thing. He's
S1: tried to please God, but he doesn't understand why he
S1: keeps doing the thing he promised not to do anymore.
S1: And he feels like he's losing this battle. And then
S1: in Romans chapter eight, it's like a complete paradigm shift
S1: where he talks about the power of the Holy Spirit
S1: in him, that it's not him who's making the right choice.
S1: It's his surrender to the power of the Holy Spirit
S1: and the grace of God. And I found that to
S1: be very true in all of our sin struggles, including
S1: this one with pornography, that usually we try to beat
S1: it in our own strength, and we want to do
S1: the right thing, and we end up feeling so discouraged
S1: that we're falling back again and again into sin. And
S1: then God is saying, hey, listen, I'm not asking you
S1: to get it right. Just bring it to me. Surrender
S1: it to me. Just give yourself to the power of
S1: the Holy Spirit and the grace of God. And it's
S1: very counterintuitive, because I think most of us really feel
S1: like the Christian life is about trying harder, when in reality,
S1: the gospel says that the power of the Christian life
S1: really comes through our surrender and to and through taking
S1: on the gift that has been given to us by
S1: grace and really abiding with God in a daily basis
S1: through the power of the Holy Spirit.
S4: I trust that our listeners who are struggling in this
S4: area will just make a note of those three chapters.
S4: Romans chapter six, seven and eight, which you mentioned, because
S4: I do think that that's a foundation in terms of
S4: moving in the right direction. Now, the title of the
S4: book is Her Freedom Journey, talking about Joy's own journey.
S4: Why did you choose the word journey And what does
S4: that journey look like?
S1: Yeah. Boy, that word journey is very intentional because, um,
S1: you know, honestly, we're we're all on a journey of freedom.
S1: Whether you struggle with sexual sin or pornography or you
S1: struggle with pride or what, you name it, you fill
S1: in the blank. We are all on the journey of
S1: being more and more surrendered to the likeness of Christ.
S1: And I think when we put a sin struggle like
S1: pornography within the context of journey, it takes away what
S1: we often think of as a pass fail test. You know,
S1: either I'm pure and I'm following God's design for sex,
S1: or I'm messing up, when in reality, you know, our
S1: righteousness comes through Christ. And then walking in that righteousness
S1: is a lifelong journey of maturity and again, learning to surrender.
S1: And so we want women to understand that this is
S1: not a one and done. It's not a three step process.
S1: And your pawn struggle is solved. It is an ongoing
S1: battle at times, but also a destination of keeping your
S1: eyes fixed on Jesus and trusting that as we pursue him,
S1: he is going to get the victory in our lives.
S1: But it may not be quick. It's not going to
S1: be easy. It's going to require courage and determination. But
S1: there is freedom in this journey.
S4: Yeah. What are some of the practical steps that a
S4: woman can take in pursuing this journey to freedom?
S1: Yeah, we have designed the book to kind of map
S1: out what that journey can look like. And so we
S1: have some really practical steps like, um, stepping into the light,
S1: being honest about your struggle and doing some work even
S1: within a small group or with a counselor, of what
S1: are the things that trigger me to use porn? What
S1: am I using porn for? What are the underlying issues?
S1: You know, looking at your need for intimacy. So often
S1: in our world, we replace sex for intimacy when what
S1: we're really longing for is we want to be known.
S1: We want to be loved. We feel lonely. We feel unseen.
S1: And so how do you begin building intimate relationships, not
S1: just within a marriage relationship, but in friendship, the community
S1: of God, where you feel connected and you have less
S1: of a need to feel like you need to rely
S1: on something like pornography. Um, we talk about learning healthier
S1: ways to cope with things like loneliness or boredom or depression.
S1: We talk about inviting God to rewrite our story, um,
S1: to actually use our stories of brokenness as weapons against
S1: the enemy, as joy has done with her own stories.
S1: So those are some of the steps that women will
S1: find as they go through her freedom journey.
S4: Well, let's say that there's a parent listening, and they
S4: have found porn on a her daughter's device. What would
S4: be a good approach for that mom or that dad
S4: to take?
S1: Yeah. You know, I think first of all, you know,
S1: what we're learning in our culture is it's not if
S1: you're going to find porn on your son or daughter's device, unfortunately,
S1: it's when that this has become so prominent, not just pornography,
S1: but sexting and other ways that that teenagers are communicating
S1: using inappropriate sexual behavior. This is just it's it's impacting
S1: almost every kid. And so, you know, I think being
S1: prepared for the fact that your, your daughter will see pornography,
S1: that your daughter is likely to be asked to send
S1: in appropriate photos like this is just happening. It's it's
S1: normal today that really helps you prepare to have the
S1: conversations before, to talk about the fact that these things
S1: are very normative and culture to talk about what God's
S1: designed for sex is to create an environment where your
S1: daughter can talk to you instead of hiding. And this
S1: is very difficult to do when you're a parent and
S1: you're sort of shocked by what you see your daughter
S1: or son is looking at. But to really have your
S1: first response be one of love and grace, because, you know,
S1: none of us want to get stuck in this. None
S1: of us, whether we're 15 or 50, want to be
S1: stuck in sexual sin. And there's a lot of shame
S1: around it. So having your first response be, wow, honey, I,
S1: I see this. I just want you to know that
S1: there's nothing you can do that you can't talk to
S1: me about, or that I'm going to judge you for.
S1: And that first encounter needs to be one of just
S1: creating a safe space because you're you're your son or
S1: daughter already knows they already feel bad about it. So
S1: you don't need to add on to that. And then
S1: in the following days having some more discussion about, uh,
S1: about what the struggle is and how they found pornography,
S1: and again, with a very shepherding kind of behavior, not judgmental. Uh,
S1: and then just more, okay, how do we how do
S1: we learn from this? How do we grow? And so
S1: you really want to create that atmosphere where it's an
S1: ongoing conversation. Not not something that involves punishment but really
S1: discipleship instead.
S4: Duck slurry. What is the enemy of our souls? Want
S4: women to think who are addicted to pornography?
S1: Boy, he's very clear about his lies. He will tell
S1: you the lie that you can ever be free, and
S1: he will tell you the lie that this has damaged
S1: you so much that you can never be whole again,
S1: or that you've you've given up something that can never
S1: be recovered or God can't forgive you. And so those
S1: are some of the common things that Said. Women believe
S1: when they're really hooked on pornography and the enemy's lies
S1: can feel so true, which is why it's so critical
S1: for us to bring them into the light, the light
S1: of people who love us, and the light of God's
S1: Word and his love for us. Yeah.
S4: With God we can break whatever the bondage is in
S4: our life. Very true. How how has the church done
S4: with this whole issue and other related struggles in this area?
S1: Yeah. You know, I think we have inherited generations of
S1: history of a church that doesn't talk about sexuality. It
S1: just was sort of an unspoken rule that you just
S1: don't talk about sex within a church context. And, you know,
S1: there have always been people who have been wounded and
S1: have struggled, but I think they've struggled in silence. And
S1: sometimes we would just say, okay, you need to go
S1: see a counselor in dealing with that there. but I
S1: really have seen within the last several years the church
S1: make a shift and say, no, this is actually part
S1: of discipleship. Like we can't effectively help people know God
S1: and follow him without being very honest about the kinds
S1: of struggles we have around sexuality. And there's been some
S1: some great ministries that have equipped the church, including like
S1: Pure Desire. I know Pure Desire and Barna just had
S1: a huge study come out on pornography with the purpose
S1: of equipping the church. Covenant eyes has done a lot
S1: of work and working with churches, and so I think
S1: it's a new era and we're learning how to do
S1: this well. But I'm really encouraged to see that churches
S1: are starting to become a safe place to be honest
S1: about some of these struggles and to get God centered help.
S4: Yeah, I think you're right. I think the church is
S4: becoming more aware of the need here. You know, in
S4: recent years, Julie, I have had wives in my office
S4: who are complaining to me or asking me, you know,
S4: said my. My husband is trying to get me to
S4: look at pornography with him, and I don't feel comfortable
S4: doing this, you know. And how do I respond to this?
S4: How would you respond to that lady?
S1: Yeah. You know, unfortunately, Gary, this is one of the
S1: main ways that girls and women are introduced into pornography
S1: is through a man asking them to engage in it. And, boy,
S1: it breaks my heart. You know, when I read Ephesians
S1: chapter five, we all kind of know that's the verse
S1: that tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loved
S1: the church. But it goes on to say that part
S1: of a man's role within marriage is to purify his wife,
S1: to present her to himself as a pure and spotless bride.
S1: And boy, I think introducing a wife or a girlfriend
S1: to pornography does the exact opposite. You're actually you're actually
S1: introducing immorality into this woman's life, which is the opposite
S1: of what God calls godly men to actually be like.
S1: So I think it's critical for men to understand the
S1: importance of dealing with their own pornography struggles and their
S1: own temptations, but also to recognize that part of standing
S1: as a godly man and fighting for righteousness is fighting
S1: for the the really the purity of women and wanting
S1: to be the kind of refining influence in our culture
S1: that protects women instead of violating women. And for that
S1: woman who's in that situation, you know, this is one
S1: of those situations where your husband or your boyfriend is
S1: asking you to do something that goes against clearly what
S1: God has asked you to do. And so we always
S1: will stake our claim on, I need to do what
S1: God is asking me to do, even if it makes
S1: somebody that I love upset. I need to stand on
S1: what God has said.
S4: Yeah. That's good. And I've sometimes said, you can say
S4: to him, I love you too much to do that.
S6: Mhm.
S4: Yeah. I love you too much to violate what I
S4: believe God has said. Yeah.
S1: That's a great response Julie.
S4: As we come toward the end of our time together,
S4: just say a word to that wife out there who
S4: is listening today, who maybe hasn't even heard anybody address this.
S4: You know, they just struggling with their own sense of
S4: guilt and shame and so forth. And they're really tuned
S4: into us today. Mhm. What would you say to them
S4: as we come toward the end of our time.
S1: Yeah. I would just say to you you are not alone.
S1: You know, next time you go into a gathering of,
S1: of Christians, I want you to imagine that about 30
S1: to 40% of those women that you see have a
S1: similar struggle, and maybe even more than that. They they're silent.
S1: They're not saying it out loud, but that doesn't mean
S1: they're not struggling. You know, one of the things that
S1: we do at Authentic Intimacy is whenever we do an
S1: event or a conference, we allow people to text anonymously
S1: any question they have. And every single room I've been in,
S1: it doesn't matter what city, what denomination, what church. There
S1: are always questions about pornography, questions about recovering from trauma,
S1: questions about I've cheated on my spouse. Nobody knows this.
S1: This is common. It doesn't mean that it's it's normal
S1: or right. God does not want us to live in
S1: this place, but it is common. And and you would
S1: be shocked to know how many sisters around you have
S1: a common struggle who also feel isolated and are just
S1: looking for a safe space to pursue healing together. And
S1: so I think it's critical that we are prayerful for
S1: God to make those connections for us, and to begin
S1: providing spaces in every church and every community where women
S1: who are struggling can find the kind of community and
S1: help that they need.
S4: You know, I hope if pastors may be listening today
S4: or church leaders, they would get this book because it
S4: would be a good starting place for them as well
S4: in terms of understanding this whole issue, and then think
S4: in terms of perhaps starting a group in a church,
S4: a small group. For those who are struggling in this area.
S4: This book would be a good guideline for that as well.
S4: I just think we've got to do more and be
S4: more open and honest in dealing with this issue. So
S4: I'm very grateful for Joy and her sharing her own journey,
S4: you know, toward freedom. And also Julie for you working
S4: with her in this project and for you making also
S4: available your website where it can be a starting place
S4: also for people. Give us that website one more time.
S4: For the ladies who said I missed that a while ago.
S1: Sure, the website is authentic intimacy. Com and you can
S1: find the online book studies that we mentioned earlier. If
S1: you'd like to go through a book like this online
S1: with other women. We also have the Julie podcast with
S1: lots of conversations around this issue and others, and just
S1: really want to encourage and resource you for the journey
S1: of what it looks like to honor God in this
S1: area of your life.
S4: All right, that's authentic intimacy. Com. Julie, thank you for
S4: being with us today and sharing on this topic. And
S4: thank you for working with Joy and putting this book together.
S4: I do believe that God will use this to help
S4: many women who are struggling in this area. So thanks
S4: again for being with us today.
S1: It's been my joy. Thanks so much for letting me
S1: share about it.
S3: Once again, Doctor Julie Slattery has been with us. You
S3: can find out more about our featured resource at Building relationships.us.
S3: The title is Her Freedom Journey A guide Out of
S3: Porn and Shame to Authentic Intimacy, written by Doctor Slattery
S3: along with doctor Joy Skarka. Again, go to Building Relationships.
S3: Dot us.
S4: And next week, find out what it takes to become
S4: a gospel mom.
S2: Emily Jensen and Laura Wiffler will join us in one week.
S2: Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve
S2: Wick and Janice. Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman
S2: is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers,
S2: a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.