1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,240 S1: Today's conversation at the radio backyard fence is probably the 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,800 S1: most practical we've had all year, and we're going to 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,960 S1: come back to it today on Chris Fabry Live. Why 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,120 S1: are we going to do that? Because there is a 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,560 S1: bleary eyed mom or dad or both, who haven't had 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,640 S1: a good night's sleep in weeks. That's because of a 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,680 S1: really good change in their lives. They've had a baby, 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,600 S1: a bundle of joy. But that bundle also has a 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,960 S1: voice and a different schedule than mom or dad. So 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,400 S1: when I read that Dina Thayer, who will join us 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,280 S1: from focus on the family, is not only a mentor 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,200 S1: and coach for blended families or those who are about 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,240 S1: to blend. She's also an infant sleep consultant. I thought, hey, 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,600 S1: there's a conversation we need to have, and we did 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,520 S1: back in February, and today you're going to hear the 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,640 S1: conversation at the Radio Backyard fence, one of the big 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,710 S1: conflicts in my own parenting journey involves this very issue. 18 00:01:02,710 --> 00:01:05,509 S1: So let's get started first by thanking our team. Ryan 19 00:01:05,510 --> 00:01:08,750 S1: McConaughey is doing all things technical. Trish is our producer. 20 00:01:08,750 --> 00:01:11,950 S1: Lisa is helping out. Nobody answering your calls today because 21 00:01:11,950 --> 00:01:15,509 S1: our program is recorded. I want to thank those who 22 00:01:15,510 --> 00:01:18,589 S1: support what we do here each day. We are a 23 00:01:18,630 --> 00:01:23,310 S1: listener supported ministry, so there are listeners around the country 24 00:01:23,350 --> 00:01:26,550 S1: who might not have an infant in their home, but 25 00:01:26,550 --> 00:01:30,590 S1: they are providing this practical help for you today through 26 00:01:30,630 --> 00:01:34,910 S1: their gift. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This month, 27 00:01:34,950 --> 00:01:38,030 S1: our thank you is for parents who are struggling with 28 00:01:38,030 --> 00:01:42,590 S1: an adult child or adult children. Nobody told you it 29 00:01:42,590 --> 00:01:45,030 S1: was going to be this complicated. You know, you thought 30 00:01:45,030 --> 00:01:47,550 S1: after you got done with the diapers and the crying 31 00:01:47,590 --> 00:01:50,670 S1: and the infant stuff that you were, you know, was 32 00:01:50,670 --> 00:01:54,110 S1: going to be smooth sailing. No, it can be painful 33 00:01:54,110 --> 00:01:59,700 S1: when your children become adults in. Resolve, conflict and find 34 00:01:59,700 --> 00:02:03,100 S1: peace and hope with adult children. Doctor Kathy Cook is 35 00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:07,020 S1: going to share biblical wisdom and practical instruction so your 36 00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:11,060 S1: relationships can grow and heal. Is that what you need 37 00:02:11,540 --> 00:02:15,020 S1: when you're an adult child walks away from you or says, 38 00:02:15,020 --> 00:02:17,419 S1: hey mom, dad, don't call me. Don't talk to me. 39 00:02:17,419 --> 00:02:21,540 S1: I'm cutting you off. What do you do? What do 40 00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:26,060 S1: your adult children need from you? How may you be 41 00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:30,060 S1: hurting instead of helping with the things that you're saying 42 00:02:30,100 --> 00:02:35,900 S1: or doing? What are you assuming? And what unrealistic expectations 43 00:02:35,900 --> 00:02:40,260 S1: might you be having about your adult children? This is 44 00:02:40,260 --> 00:02:46,060 S1: an excellent resource. Talk about practical. Go to Chris fabry.org. Somebody. 45 00:02:46,060 --> 00:02:48,420 S1: If you don't need it, somebody in your life does 46 00:02:48,460 --> 00:02:51,660 S1: resolve conflict and find peace and hope with Adult children 47 00:02:51,660 --> 00:02:56,140 S1: by Doctor Kathy Cook. Go to Chris fabry.org or you 48 00:02:56,139 --> 00:03:05,440 S1: can call this number 86695538669532279. And thanks for your support. 49 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:16,040 S1: Yeah that's good. That's a great sound. In the middle 50 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,720 S1: of the day in the middle of the night. It's 51 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,200 S1: not so much. And I want you to hear from 52 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,200 S1: Dina Thayer today. Dina's a podcaster, speaker, and author with 53 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,600 S1: more than 20 years experience in the marriage and parenting sphere. 54 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,399 S1: I don't know, Dina, do you have do you work 55 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,079 S1: in a sphere? It's a great big round office. Is 56 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:34,520 S1: that what you. 57 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,360 S2: Right. I'm in a bubble. Exactly. 58 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,320 S1: Uh, she originally served as a doula and childbirth educator 59 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,320 S1: before moving into parenting or parent coaching and podcasting, most 60 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,560 S1: recently on focus on the family's crazy little thing called marriage. 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,200 S1: For the past decade, Dina and her husband, Scott have 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,800 S1: drawn on their stepfamily experience. They lead blended family ministry 63 00:03:54,840 --> 00:04:00,590 S1: through premarital coaching and mentoring and small group facilitation. She 64 00:04:00,590 --> 00:04:05,270 S1: and Scott are now empty nesters with five young adult children. 65 00:04:05,590 --> 00:04:11,830 S1: And we have an article linked@kris.org that Dina wrote and 66 00:04:11,830 --> 00:04:14,830 S1: that I highly recommend that you go to if this 67 00:04:14,830 --> 00:04:17,670 S1: is your life. Dina, how are you doing today? 68 00:04:17,870 --> 00:04:20,390 S2: I am well, Chris, thanks so much for having me 69 00:04:20,390 --> 00:04:23,589 S2: on to talk about this important issue for parents. 70 00:04:23,830 --> 00:04:26,589 S1: It is important, and I don't know how many in 71 00:04:26,589 --> 00:04:29,830 S1: our listening audience are going to be, you know, young 72 00:04:29,830 --> 00:04:33,430 S1: enough to have little children, infants. But let me start 73 00:04:33,430 --> 00:04:36,070 S1: with this. It says doula and I went to the 74 00:04:36,070 --> 00:04:38,830 S1: Cleveland Clinic and looked it up. Doula is a person 75 00:04:38,830 --> 00:04:42,430 S1: who assists you before, during and shortly after childbirth. Is 76 00:04:42,430 --> 00:04:42,950 S1: that true? 77 00:04:43,110 --> 00:04:47,510 S2: That is true. Doula is essentially a labor support person 78 00:04:47,990 --> 00:04:52,029 S2: that acts in a non-clinical capacity. So I wasn't listening 79 00:04:52,070 --> 00:04:54,510 S2: to fetal heart tones or delivering babies, but I was 80 00:04:54,620 --> 00:04:58,980 S2: helping families with maybe breathing or relaxation or different positions 81 00:04:58,980 --> 00:05:01,860 S2: they could get into to help their labor go more smoothly. 82 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:05,460 S2: And it's a really special thing to be invited into 83 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:08,620 S2: that day. When people become parents, it's really incredible. 84 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:10,660 S1: Why did you want to become a doula? 85 00:05:11,380 --> 00:05:14,420 S2: I think it really came out of my own birth experience. 86 00:05:14,420 --> 00:05:17,859 S2: I felt very, very well supported, and I know that's 87 00:05:17,860 --> 00:05:21,500 S2: not the experience of every family. Some families have a 88 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:25,020 S2: harder birth experience, and I had a lovely time. I 89 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:28,100 S2: had a wonderful midwife, I had other people supporting me, 90 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:30,539 S2: and I thought, wow, if I could be part of 91 00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:33,620 S2: providing that for someone else, that they can walk away 92 00:05:33,620 --> 00:05:36,260 S2: from their birthing day and say, that was empowering, that 93 00:05:36,260 --> 00:05:41,219 S2: was transformative. I felt loved and supported then that's really meaningful. 94 00:05:41,220 --> 00:05:44,940 S2: And so within five months of having my first child, 95 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:48,740 S2: I went through doula certification and attended my first birth. 96 00:05:49,060 --> 00:05:52,340 S1: Wow. What is that like for you on that, on 97 00:05:52,339 --> 00:05:52,860 S1: that side? 98 00:05:53,610 --> 00:05:58,370 S2: It's really magical, I have to say. It's pretty incredible. 99 00:05:58,370 --> 00:06:00,450 S2: And I think as a believer, it's pretty special for 100 00:06:00,450 --> 00:06:02,849 S2: me because I believe children are a gift from God. 101 00:06:02,850 --> 00:06:05,490 S2: And we know Psalm 127 talks about children being a 102 00:06:05,490 --> 00:06:08,089 S2: heritage from the Lord. And so seeing parents kind of 103 00:06:08,130 --> 00:06:11,810 S2: cross over this special bridge from being just a couple 104 00:06:12,089 --> 00:06:17,450 S2: to being parents is really, I think it's sacred. And 105 00:06:17,450 --> 00:06:20,370 S2: so to get invited into that, plus it's really intense, right? 106 00:06:20,410 --> 00:06:22,530 S2: There's a lot of big emotions. There's a lot of 107 00:06:22,529 --> 00:06:27,130 S2: big physiological sensations. Some dads are more squeamish than others. 108 00:06:27,130 --> 00:06:29,770 S2: So sometimes I was actually a coach for the coach. 109 00:06:30,089 --> 00:06:34,210 S2: And it's it's really incredible. I was really blessed to 110 00:06:34,250 --> 00:06:36,930 S2: be part of that. And part of that day for 111 00:06:36,930 --> 00:06:41,610 S2: many people over, as you mentioned, over two decades. So 112 00:06:41,650 --> 00:06:43,850 S2: a really a really special season in my life. 113 00:06:43,970 --> 00:06:46,810 S1: And there's so much information out there these days. And 114 00:06:46,810 --> 00:06:49,450 S1: I remember reading books, you know, the baby name books, 115 00:06:49,450 --> 00:06:51,770 S1: and then expect this in the first month and expect 116 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,560 S1: this and all of that. So you. But there's something 117 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,640 S1: different about just reading the facts and then actually going 118 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,120 S1: through it and having someone who's been there as well, 119 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,160 S1: coming alongside you, putting an arm around you and say, 120 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,520 S1: this is going to pass, it's okay, that kind of thing. Right? 121 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,480 S2: That's really true. I think the encouragement piece of being 122 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,560 S2: a doula was one of my favorite parts, and the 123 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,640 S2: fact that I had had children myself, I think, lent 124 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:25,000 S2: something to that. I could say to a woman in labor, hey, 125 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,040 S2: by what I'm seeing, you're actually almost done. Hang in there. 126 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,680 S2: That's really powerful to someone who's feeling like they might 127 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,640 S2: want to throw in the towel or wave the white 128 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,440 S2: flag of surrender to be able to say, hey, based 129 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,640 S2: on what I'm seeing, you're probably near the finish line. 130 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,360 S2: What an encouragement that can be from someone who can 131 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,000 S2: genuinely say, I've done this, I've been there, I've been 132 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,480 S2: in the trenches of childbirth. And that encouragement piece is 133 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,260 S2: a big part of doula work advocacy, the encouragement and 134 00:07:53,260 --> 00:07:56,140 S2: the emotional support, not just the physical support. 135 00:07:56,900 --> 00:07:59,460 S1: So you could be a doula at a home birth 136 00:07:59,460 --> 00:08:01,100 S1: or in the hospital, right? 137 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:04,700 S2: That's correct. Yes, I did home birth, freestanding birth centers, 138 00:08:04,700 --> 00:08:06,700 S2: and a lot of hospital births as well. 139 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:09,460 S1: That's one of the questions that people have is like, 140 00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:11,620 S1: I would really like to do a home birth, but 141 00:08:11,620 --> 00:08:13,860 S1: I'm scared of doing that. You could probably we could 142 00:08:13,860 --> 00:08:15,980 S1: do a whole program just on that. But for sure, 143 00:08:16,020 --> 00:08:21,300 S1: you here to, to talk about the infant and sleeping. 144 00:08:21,780 --> 00:08:26,740 S1: And when it says that you are an infant, sleep. Uh, 145 00:08:27,020 --> 00:08:31,260 S1: what did I say? Consultant. You're not consulting the infant, right? 146 00:08:31,540 --> 00:08:36,179 S2: No. You know, they generally aren't super responsive to my thoughts. 147 00:08:36,460 --> 00:08:39,900 S2: So yes, I work with the parents and that really 148 00:08:39,900 --> 00:08:42,059 S2: came out of the doula work. And I think we 149 00:08:42,059 --> 00:08:44,780 S2: see this even in marriage, right? There's so much prep 150 00:08:44,780 --> 00:08:46,900 S2: for the wedding, but how are we doing a good 151 00:08:46,900 --> 00:08:50,650 S2: job supporting couples in their marriage, and I was starting 152 00:08:50,650 --> 00:08:54,090 S2: to feel the same way. I'm helping, which is incredible. 153 00:08:54,090 --> 00:08:56,850 S2: And the birthing day is important, but I'm doing all 154 00:08:56,850 --> 00:08:59,410 S2: this help and support for that day. But there's so 155 00:08:59,410 --> 00:09:02,090 S2: much on the other side of that. And that just 156 00:09:02,090 --> 00:09:05,449 S2: started to stir within me a passion for the parenting 157 00:09:05,450 --> 00:09:08,089 S2: side of things. And one of the first challenges I 158 00:09:08,090 --> 00:09:11,170 S2: would see when I would meet with my doula clients 159 00:09:11,330 --> 00:09:16,370 S2: for their postpartum visit is, hey, we are exhausted. And 160 00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:20,090 S2: so I did some research and got myself some training 161 00:09:20,090 --> 00:09:22,410 S2: around that just to be able to be a support. 162 00:09:22,410 --> 00:09:24,730 S2: I really did it mostly in a lay capacity, but 163 00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:27,850 S2: then it kind of took off. And it turns out 164 00:09:27,890 --> 00:09:31,050 S2: a lot of parents are really desperate for a good 165 00:09:31,050 --> 00:09:34,210 S2: night's sleep and willing to make some tweaks and changes 166 00:09:34,210 --> 00:09:35,730 S2: in order to get that. 167 00:09:35,970 --> 00:09:37,770 S1: That's what I want to talk about today. When I 168 00:09:37,770 --> 00:09:41,530 S1: heard Dina talk about what she just said, it's like, 169 00:09:41,570 --> 00:09:45,090 S1: I've not heard this. I've heard a lot of parents say, oh, 170 00:09:45,130 --> 00:09:47,410 S1: I can't get any sleep. I've got the baby. Or, 171 00:09:47,450 --> 00:09:49,440 S1: you know, you make jokes about people. Hey, are you 172 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,920 S1: getting any sleep? You know, at night, when the baby 173 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,040 S1: is crying, you know that they're going through that. So? 174 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,280 S1: So what do you do? So I've invited Dina, if 175 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,800 S1: that is where you are or you have a question 176 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,959 S1: or a comment, maybe a story about how this happened 177 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,840 S1: for you a long time ago. Because for me, there 178 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,120 S1: were a couple of the children that we had who 179 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,960 S1: had more problems sleeping than others. Some it was a breeze. 180 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,120 S1: It's just like, put him in the crib and they're done, 181 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,400 S1: you know, until the morning. But most of the time, 182 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,280 S1: most people, especially if you're for the very first time 183 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,040 S1: bringing that infant home and you're not getting that sleep 184 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,160 S1: that you so desperately need. That's what I want to 185 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,080 S1: talk about today. And it's why we're going back to 186 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,640 S1: February in this conversation with Dina Thayer, so that you 187 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,880 S1: can hear it again or hear it for the very 188 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,320 S1: first time at the radio backyard fence. Don't call us today. 189 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,959 S1: Our program is recorded, but go to the website, Chris 190 00:10:46,000 --> 00:11:00,190 S1: Fabry live.org. Chris Fabry live.org. We're talking with infant sleep 191 00:11:00,190 --> 00:11:06,230 S1: consultant Dena Thayer. She's a doula. So it's doula Dena. 192 00:11:06,910 --> 00:11:09,590 S1: Dee dum dee dee. No, I'm not gonna. That's what 193 00:11:09,630 --> 00:11:13,589 S1: first came to my mind was thinking doula Dena. Okay, so, uh, 194 00:11:13,630 --> 00:11:17,390 S1: go to the website, kris.org. You'll see a link to 195 00:11:17,429 --> 00:11:21,630 S1: an article about infant sleep laying the foundation. So, and 196 00:11:21,630 --> 00:11:24,830 S1: as I recall, it's been a while. When you bring 197 00:11:24,830 --> 00:11:28,830 S1: that infant home, that baby sleeps a. Other than eating 198 00:11:28,830 --> 00:11:32,190 S1: and being changed, that baby sleeps a lot, right? Dena. 199 00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:36,350 S2: A lot of times, yes, in the first few days, 200 00:11:36,350 --> 00:11:38,990 S2: they're a great snoozer. And then parents are in for 201 00:11:38,990 --> 00:11:42,230 S2: this kind of rude awakening. Now some babies are stinkers 202 00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:44,230 S2: about that from the start. But yes, you often get 203 00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:48,540 S2: kind of this almost little honeymoon period where you feel 204 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:51,700 S2: like this baby could sleep through the vacuum, or a 205 00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:54,180 S2: dog barking right next to them, or what have you. 206 00:11:54,179 --> 00:11:58,420 S2: And then there's that shift leaving parents going, oh, well, 207 00:11:58,420 --> 00:12:00,540 S2: now what? We thought we had this great sleeper. And 208 00:12:00,540 --> 00:12:03,380 S2: I will say some babies really are champs at this, 209 00:12:03,740 --> 00:12:06,860 S2: but most babies end up needing some support to kind 210 00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:08,420 S2: of learn how to do this. Well. 211 00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:12,099 S1: By support you mean training? 212 00:12:12,140 --> 00:12:16,420 S2: Yes. The parents kind of taking the lead on helping 213 00:12:16,420 --> 00:12:19,819 S2: them learn, for instance, circadian rhythms, just learning day and 214 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:23,179 S2: night in the womb. There isn't as much of a 215 00:12:23,179 --> 00:12:26,579 S2: sense of that. They're floating in fluid. Things are changing 216 00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:30,020 S2: all the time, and they're hearing mom's heartbeat and these 217 00:12:30,020 --> 00:12:32,780 S2: different whooshing noises, but they're not maybe as aware of 218 00:12:32,780 --> 00:12:36,340 S2: dark and light through the skin and maybe the placenta 219 00:12:36,340 --> 00:12:38,660 S2: is in the way. I mean, we have to help 220 00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:42,580 S2: them understand the rhythms of life. And I mentioned that 221 00:12:42,580 --> 00:12:46,880 S2: scripture in Psalms and I think this is particularly an 222 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,120 S2: important piece for believing parents, because if we do believe 223 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,079 S2: that our children are a gift, but we also believe 224 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,240 S2: that he's given us this opportunity to steward that gift well. 225 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,360 S2: It means we need to not be afraid of being 226 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,720 S2: that gentle authority in their world and being their first 227 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,320 S2: and best teacher. And one of the first things we 228 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,640 S2: teach our children is day and night and how to 229 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,600 S2: help them sleep. And so I think what can sometimes 230 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,200 S2: trip parents up is even thinking, well, this is mean 231 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,120 S2: to quote, sleep, train my baby. And there's a lot 232 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,080 S2: of negative connotations with that to which we can unpack. 233 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,000 S2: But I think what we've got to remember is you 234 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,520 S2: are the parent. God's put you in that spot. And 235 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,480 S2: it's actually a real gift to be your child's first 236 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,000 S2: and best teacher about the world. And you do them 237 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,320 S2: a disservice if you don't step into that. 238 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,040 S1: The sleep train, we're going to get on the sleep train. 239 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:39,240 S2: Get on the sleep train. 240 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,350 S1: Do it today. Okay. Uh, I saw this video the 241 00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:45,510 S1: other day of Michael Junior, the comedian. 242 00:13:45,510 --> 00:13:45,950 S2: Yes. 243 00:13:45,990 --> 00:13:47,790 S1: And in one of his I don't know if you've 244 00:13:47,790 --> 00:13:52,550 S1: seen this in one of his comedic, uh, soirees that 245 00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:55,870 S1: he did, he played a video of his newborn, I 246 00:13:55,870 --> 00:13:58,070 S1: think it was his daughter. Have you seen this? 247 00:13:58,070 --> 00:14:00,030 S2: I haven't seen the video. I've attended one of his 248 00:14:00,030 --> 00:14:02,750 S2: marriage conferences, but I don't think I've seen this video. 249 00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:07,830 S1: He basically said, you know, this is right after the 250 00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:11,070 S1: baby has been born and the baby is just starting 251 00:14:11,070 --> 00:14:14,390 S1: to cry and cry and cry, and it's that newborn cry. 252 00:14:14,429 --> 00:14:16,270 S2: Oh, and then does he start talking to her? 253 00:14:16,309 --> 00:14:19,510 S3: And he's yes, I have voice. Yes. 254 00:14:19,950 --> 00:14:23,630 S1: The baby hears his voice and stops and just, you know, 255 00:14:23,670 --> 00:14:28,230 S1: doesn't open her eyes at that point. But it just shows. 256 00:14:28,270 --> 00:14:30,430 S1: And I think he made that point later on, you know, 257 00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:33,150 S1: whose voice are you listening to? Which is really good. 258 00:14:33,470 --> 00:14:37,390 S1: But the, the, the comfort of that voice of the 259 00:14:37,390 --> 00:14:40,710 S1: father and the mother. That's that's huge, isn't it? 260 00:14:40,750 --> 00:14:43,780 S2: It is. And we now know the science shows us 261 00:14:43,780 --> 00:14:46,940 S2: that babies can start to distinguish their parents voices, even 262 00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:50,100 S2: in the womb. So that's why we can see a 263 00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:53,340 S2: baby that's literally minutes old will try and turn its 264 00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:55,980 S2: head toward the sound of its mother's voice or its 265 00:14:55,980 --> 00:15:00,340 S2: father's voice. So there is real power in that. And 266 00:15:00,340 --> 00:15:02,820 S2: it it just shows you how much they're already looking 267 00:15:02,860 --> 00:15:06,420 S2: to you to guide the way. And sleep is one 268 00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:09,860 S2: area where you can do that. But you're exactly right. 269 00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:13,060 S2: The the power of Mom and Dad's voice is not 270 00:15:13,060 --> 00:15:15,980 S2: only is it powerful, but it's soothing to them. And 271 00:15:15,980 --> 00:15:19,580 S2: that makes me think of another amazing scripture in Zephaniah 317. 272 00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:23,500 S2: It says that that God really is our salvation, and 273 00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:25,940 S2: he comforts us with his love. And it says, and 274 00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:28,620 S2: he rejoices over you with singing. And we know a 275 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:31,020 S2: lot of parents will sing lullabies to their children. And 276 00:15:31,020 --> 00:15:34,180 S2: that's soothing. And it's, it brings peace. And I love 277 00:15:34,180 --> 00:15:36,500 S2: just that picture of how our Heavenly Father does this 278 00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:38,700 S2: for us, too. So we should want to do it 279 00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:41,410 S2: for our kids and not see it as this big 280 00:15:41,450 --> 00:15:43,530 S2: speed bump that we just don't want to get over. 281 00:15:43,570 --> 00:15:45,570 S2: It's actually really a gift to be able to help 282 00:15:45,570 --> 00:15:47,970 S2: your children sleep well, because it also, let's be honest, 283 00:15:47,970 --> 00:15:50,450 S2: helps you sleep well too. And that's good because I'll 284 00:15:50,450 --> 00:15:52,290 S2: be honest, when I'm sleep deprived, I don't even want 285 00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:55,530 S2: to be around myself. I'm not pleasant. So this was 286 00:15:55,530 --> 00:15:58,170 S2: partly a necessity for me when I was doing it. 287 00:15:58,490 --> 00:16:02,330 S1: So when you say teach your children, teach your infant 288 00:16:02,330 --> 00:16:05,210 S1: circadian rhythms, how do you do that? 289 00:16:05,450 --> 00:16:09,450 S2: Mhm. So that teaching babies day and night often comes 290 00:16:09,450 --> 00:16:13,650 S2: with some gentle routine. And I'm very aware sleep, work 291 00:16:14,090 --> 00:16:15,850 S2: in the in the years that I've done it, I've 292 00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:18,530 S2: seen it. It can be very polarizing. There are a 293 00:16:18,530 --> 00:16:22,090 S2: lot of strong feelings on either end of the spectrum. 294 00:16:22,090 --> 00:16:25,530 S2: There are families who really feel it's important to have 295 00:16:25,770 --> 00:16:29,890 S2: baby on maybe a quite rigid schedule, and there's other 296 00:16:29,890 --> 00:16:34,170 S2: families who truly doing their best, really believe in this 297 00:16:34,210 --> 00:16:36,610 S2: more free form approach. And I kind of just want 298 00:16:36,650 --> 00:16:40,030 S2: to feed my baby when they cry. And do a 299 00:16:40,030 --> 00:16:42,510 S2: lot of baby wearing. You know, in a sling or 300 00:16:42,510 --> 00:16:46,110 S2: something like that. And neither are good or bad. I 301 00:16:46,110 --> 00:16:48,390 S2: think we have to be careful to kind of polarize 302 00:16:48,390 --> 00:16:51,430 S2: or say there's one right way. You mentioned earlier books, 303 00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:54,110 S2: and that's one area where I think it can get 304 00:16:54,110 --> 00:16:57,470 S2: really sticky because you could read three books on sleep, 305 00:16:57,470 --> 00:17:00,830 S2: for example, and come away with three completely different philosophies 306 00:17:00,830 --> 00:17:04,950 S2: on how to do it. So it is important to 307 00:17:04,990 --> 00:17:08,510 S2: teach night and day, but what is going to resonate 308 00:17:08,670 --> 00:17:11,310 S2: for how to teach that might be a little different 309 00:17:11,310 --> 00:17:14,830 S2: from one family to another. So I'll share what I 310 00:17:14,869 --> 00:17:17,109 S2: kind of talk about with my clients. I learn about 311 00:17:17,109 --> 00:17:20,350 S2: them and learn about their parenting styles and what they're 312 00:17:20,350 --> 00:17:24,230 S2: like as people. And what I really encourage parents is 313 00:17:24,270 --> 00:17:26,790 S2: I usually say, I don't, I don't so much care 314 00:17:26,830 --> 00:17:30,310 S2: what you pick, but I do encourage you to choose 315 00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:34,670 S2: some kind of framework, whether that is, hey, it resonates 316 00:17:34,670 --> 00:17:37,229 S2: with us to have a schedule or we're going to 317 00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:41,020 S2: be a little more on the attachment parenting free form side, 318 00:17:41,020 --> 00:17:43,460 S2: or we're going to be somewhere in the middle. But 319 00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:46,220 S2: to choose a framework and to have a strong why 320 00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:49,179 S2: for this hard work of helping your baby sleep makes 321 00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:52,300 S2: such a difference. And I find it's the step most 322 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:56,060 S2: parents skip. They haven't really thought about the intentionality of 323 00:17:56,060 --> 00:17:59,020 S2: it and the why and when the what and the 324 00:17:59,060 --> 00:18:01,620 S2: how get hard your why is what helps you. There's 325 00:18:01,619 --> 00:18:03,979 S2: that saying that says, if you have a strong enough why, 326 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:07,740 S2: you can tolerate almost any how. And I think especially 327 00:18:07,740 --> 00:18:11,540 S2: in sleep work, nothing could be more true. You've got 328 00:18:11,580 --> 00:18:14,340 S2: to have a reason that you're doing it. There's even 329 00:18:14,340 --> 00:18:16,660 S2: families who will do a combo pack. You've had nine kids, 330 00:18:16,660 --> 00:18:19,500 S2: so you've probably seen a lot of variety pack on 331 00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:22,300 S2: not only the skill level of your child to sleep, 332 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:24,500 S2: but even how you and your wife approached it over 333 00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:27,619 S2: the years. And so I encourage families to think about 334 00:18:27,619 --> 00:18:31,300 S2: why pick some kind of framework to use and operate 335 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:33,260 S2: out of that. It will help you a ton when 336 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:37,050 S2: things get challenging. And I did say when, not if I. 337 00:18:37,210 --> 00:18:39,650 S1: Now, here's why I know that I wanted to have 338 00:18:39,650 --> 00:18:42,730 S1: you on about this, Dina. And I didn't know, you know, 339 00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:46,330 S1: a whole lot other than reading the article, because there 340 00:18:46,330 --> 00:18:49,610 S1: are people who are very rigid and will say, you 341 00:18:49,609 --> 00:18:52,330 S1: have to do this, and here's what you do. And 342 00:18:52,609 --> 00:18:54,250 S1: a minute and a half of that, you know, all 343 00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:56,449 S1: that kind of stuff. And it's like, I don't know 344 00:18:56,450 --> 00:18:58,490 S1: that I want to I want to foster that. But 345 00:18:58,490 --> 00:19:01,969 S1: I just sensed with you that you would be sensitive 346 00:19:01,970 --> 00:19:05,490 S1: to the, the, the infant as well as the parents 347 00:19:05,490 --> 00:19:09,370 S1: and not give a rigid, you know, one, two, three, A, B, 348 00:19:09,369 --> 00:19:11,649 S1: c this is how you have to do it. 349 00:19:12,090 --> 00:19:15,850 S2: That you were correct in that sense. Babies are not 350 00:19:15,850 --> 00:19:20,129 S2: machines or robots. They're all individual people. And they all 351 00:19:20,170 --> 00:19:23,010 S2: respond a little bit differently to the things that we try. 352 00:19:23,050 --> 00:19:25,530 S2: I've even had clients who came back with their second 353 00:19:25,530 --> 00:19:29,010 S2: baby and said, wow, this one just isn't responding to 354 00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:32,530 S2: the things that seemed to work really well with our firstborn. 355 00:19:32,530 --> 00:19:35,440 S2: Could we touch base again about some different strategies, and 356 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,919 S2: I'm always happy to do that because they are people 357 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,800 S2: and they're going to respond differently and parents even change. 358 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,560 S2: We all know if we've been married for any length 359 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,120 S2: of time, the dynamic of your marriage changes over time 360 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,080 S2: as you learn and grow. We need to be considerate 361 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,800 S2: of our babies learning and growing. They are people, and 362 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,280 S2: babies are a wonderful way to start people. Don't get 363 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,520 S2: me wrong, they're fun. But we do need to understand 364 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,560 S2: that what works for one family maybe isn't the perfect 365 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,879 S2: answer for another. And some of that even comes down 366 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,320 S2: to your style as a person. Like, I'm a real 367 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,360 S2: morning person, for example, and I'm a firstborn, so I 368 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,960 S2: love structure. So bringing some routine into my baby's day 369 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,439 S2: made a lot of sense for me. For another family 370 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,360 S2: who loves to have the days where they just wake 371 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,240 S2: up and spontaneously want to go on a hike, you know, 372 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,560 S2: a schedule might feel really too restrictive for them, and 373 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,119 S2: they need a baby that can just go with the 374 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,960 S2: flow with whatever ends up happening in their day. And 375 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,160 S2: that's why that intention piece becomes so important. You've got 376 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,710 S2: to understand what are we like as people? What are 377 00:20:35,710 --> 00:20:38,869 S2: we like as parents? What is our lifestyle and how 378 00:20:38,869 --> 00:20:41,350 S2: do we work our baby into that? Because that's the 379 00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:43,630 S2: other thing I think we're seeing a lot in our 380 00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:48,670 S2: society is a lot of this kind of child centered parenting. 381 00:20:48,830 --> 00:20:51,790 S2: And what we know, particularly as Christians, is that children 382 00:20:51,790 --> 00:20:54,310 S2: are a welcome addition to our life, but they were 383 00:20:54,310 --> 00:20:57,070 S2: never designed to be the center of our universe. We 384 00:20:57,070 --> 00:21:00,750 S2: need to steward this gift by being their authority in 385 00:21:00,790 --> 00:21:04,150 S2: that gentle and loving way, but certainly still being that authority. 386 00:21:04,550 --> 00:21:08,830 S2: And so picking based on what are we like? What 387 00:21:08,830 --> 00:21:11,230 S2: is our life like? What's going to work for us 388 00:21:11,390 --> 00:21:15,710 S2: that incorporates your baby into your microcosm of an environment 389 00:21:15,710 --> 00:21:19,030 S2: as a family system? And that's, again, a gift you 390 00:21:19,030 --> 00:21:21,470 S2: give your child to not set them up to be 391 00:21:21,470 --> 00:21:23,550 S2: really upset when they go out in the world someday 392 00:21:23,550 --> 00:21:25,670 S2: and go, what? I'm not the center of the universe. 393 00:21:25,670 --> 00:21:29,189 S2: What happened here? So this is this is a foundational 394 00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:31,710 S2: piece of that actually, even in how you parent. 395 00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:34,330 S1: The other struggle for new moms and dads is you're 396 00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:36,770 S1: really vulnerable. You know, if you read all the books, 397 00:21:36,770 --> 00:21:39,050 S1: you heard all the you heard the conflicting advice, and 398 00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:42,729 S1: then you have a parent or a brother or a 399 00:21:42,730 --> 00:21:45,330 S1: sister who has more children, you know, down the road 400 00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:47,209 S1: a little further, oh, you shouldn't do that. You ought 401 00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:50,250 S1: to do this. And why don't you try that, you know, 402 00:21:50,530 --> 00:21:53,609 S1: and you can feel kind of ganged up on with 403 00:21:53,609 --> 00:21:55,810 S1: all of that advice that's coming in. 404 00:21:56,050 --> 00:22:00,650 S2: Yes. And that's really demoralizing too. I think underneath all 405 00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:05,290 S2: of that, parenting is actually pretty vulnerable. We're putting ourselves 406 00:22:05,290 --> 00:22:09,369 S2: out there through these little people. And so when we 407 00:22:09,850 --> 00:22:14,690 S2: receive a discouraging comment like that, that's pretty demoralizing and 408 00:22:14,690 --> 00:22:16,810 S2: can even make a parent feel like I'm doing a 409 00:22:16,810 --> 00:22:20,410 S2: bad job. I've had some clients come to me feeling 410 00:22:20,410 --> 00:22:24,570 S2: very defeated. I must be doing this quote, wrong, unquote, 411 00:22:24,609 --> 00:22:28,609 S2: or I had an unfortunate comment from an in-law or 412 00:22:28,609 --> 00:22:32,280 S2: something that's just driven me to kind of question how 413 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,919 S2: I'm going about this. And so I appreciate you bringing 414 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,040 S2: up that point, because I actually think other loved ones, 415 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,240 S2: such as the grandparents, aunts and uncles, anyone who may 416 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,760 S2: be serves as child care need to be supportive of 417 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,360 S2: how the parents have decided to do it. Not only 418 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,760 S2: is that kind to the parents and doesn't cut them 419 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,560 S2: down as you were just describing, but it also provides 420 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,280 S2: beautiful consistency for the baby. So they aren't experiencing one 421 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,560 S2: set of how we do things with mom and dad, 422 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,719 S2: and then something different at daycare and something different when 423 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,360 S2: I'm with grandma, etc. we want to provide consistency for 424 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,480 S2: them so that they can learn again, not only day 425 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,159 S2: and night, but just kind of learn the rhythms of 426 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,440 S2: their own household. 427 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,560 S1: So how old does the infant need to be when 428 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,080 S1: you start implementing these, this framework you're talking about? 429 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,200 S2: Oh, I'm glad you asked this because this is a 430 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,520 S2: myth that I really enjoy busting. I think a lot 431 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,310 S2: of parents, whether they've read a book or just heard 432 00:23:31,310 --> 00:23:34,950 S2: it somewhere, they think it can be kind of harmful 433 00:23:34,990 --> 00:23:38,189 S2: to start too soon, so to speak. They kind of 434 00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:40,430 S2: falsely believe that if there's any kind of a sleep 435 00:23:40,430 --> 00:23:44,670 S2: plan or structure, we're going to have terrible issues. What 436 00:23:44,670 --> 00:23:46,990 S2: I will say is in all the years of my 437 00:23:47,109 --> 00:23:50,230 S2: sleep work, I have seen that to rarely be the case. 438 00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:53,429 S2: I actually have seen the opposite more often, where parents 439 00:23:53,470 --> 00:23:56,430 S2: kind of wait too long to make a strategy or 440 00:23:56,430 --> 00:23:59,350 S2: pick a plan, and then they really end up in 441 00:23:59,350 --> 00:24:03,910 S2: some ruts. And those tough habits are much harder to 442 00:24:03,950 --> 00:24:08,389 S2: undo the older the baby is. So I really encourage, yes, 443 00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:10,550 S2: let's be kind to a brand new baby. As you 444 00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:12,830 S2: describe the one who's still snoozing a lot in those 445 00:24:12,830 --> 00:24:17,389 S2: first few days home from the hospital or just getting 446 00:24:17,390 --> 00:24:20,990 S2: settled in. I also think if a family is figuring 447 00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:23,950 S2: out feeding if mom is nursing, baby needs some time 448 00:24:23,950 --> 00:24:26,550 S2: to learn breastfeeding. Like that's a learning curve and it's 449 00:24:26,550 --> 00:24:29,260 S2: sometimes a steep one. So certainly we want to leave 450 00:24:29,260 --> 00:24:33,100 S2: those precious early days alone. But I've had clients who 451 00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:35,220 S2: even start when a baby is a week to ten 452 00:24:35,220 --> 00:24:38,460 S2: days old and do just fine, and then they've prevented 453 00:24:38,460 --> 00:24:41,659 S2: those issues that crop up for the families who waited. 454 00:24:41,660 --> 00:24:44,100 S2: And now their baby's five months old and only sleeps 455 00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:47,180 S2: laying in their lap while they're sitting up or something bizarre, 456 00:24:47,220 --> 00:24:50,300 S2: you know? So there's, there's really not the harm in 457 00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:53,300 S2: starting early that some people think exists. 458 00:24:53,660 --> 00:24:54,020 S3: Okay. 459 00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:56,060 S1: So I want to talk about all of that. And 460 00:24:56,060 --> 00:24:58,540 S1: we're going to do that as we continue here on 461 00:24:58,540 --> 00:25:01,300 S1: Chris Fabry live with Dina Thayer. We're going to talk 462 00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:04,219 S1: about the crib. We're going to talk about that issue 463 00:25:04,220 --> 00:25:07,460 S1: of bringing the baby in the bed, you know, for 464 00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:10,340 S1: nighttime feedings, and then the baby stays there. I know 465 00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:13,419 S1: Dina has an opinion about that. If you go to 466 00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:16,620 S1: Chris Fabry live.org, we have a link to the article 467 00:25:16,619 --> 00:25:21,620 S1: that we're featuring today, Infant Sleep, laying the foundation from 468 00:25:21,619 --> 00:25:24,379 S1: focus on the family. And we have some other links 469 00:25:24,380 --> 00:25:27,570 S1: there too. And I want to say especially a big 470 00:25:27,570 --> 00:25:30,450 S1: thank you to those of you who do not have 471 00:25:30,450 --> 00:25:33,850 S1: infants that's in the rear view mirror, but you have 472 00:25:33,850 --> 00:25:37,490 S1: supported this program. Thank you for doing that today so 473 00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:40,889 S1: that somebody who is in this situation is going to 474 00:25:40,890 --> 00:25:44,810 S1: be helped by what we're talking about here with Dena Thayer. Again, 475 00:25:44,850 --> 00:25:48,850 S1: the website is Chris Fabry, live dot ORG, and you 476 00:25:48,850 --> 00:25:51,450 S1: can see right there how you can support us. Just 477 00:25:51,450 --> 00:25:55,609 S1: go to Chris Fabry live.org. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. 478 00:26:05,890 --> 00:26:06,810 S4: This is Chris Fabry. 479 00:26:06,810 --> 00:26:09,649 S1: Live on Moody Radio, and we are talking about infant 480 00:26:09,650 --> 00:26:14,010 S1: sleep today with doula Dena. Don't call us. Our program 481 00:26:14,010 --> 00:26:18,770 S1: is recorded. But if this is what you're hearing at night. Yeah. 482 00:26:19,690 --> 00:26:20,730 S3: It's gonna be okay. 483 00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:24,810 S1: It's gonna be okay. If that's the sound of the 484 00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:28,590 S1: voice that you're hearing at night. Today's program, I hope, 485 00:26:28,590 --> 00:26:31,670 S1: is a breath of fresh air to you or somebody 486 00:26:31,670 --> 00:26:35,350 S1: you know who's in that situation. Our first call in 487 00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:38,110 S1: this segment is from Jeff in Akron, Ohio. 488 00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:42,790 S5: I have a question about REM sleep cycles. And if she's, uh, 489 00:26:42,790 --> 00:26:46,230 S5: if Dean has done any, like digging in that or 490 00:26:46,390 --> 00:26:50,950 S5: incorporate that into her, you know, advice and counseling on 491 00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:51,710 S5: the subject. 492 00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:55,550 S1: Um, good question. And that's, and that's where you, you're 493 00:26:55,550 --> 00:26:57,510 S1: really in that deep sleep, right? Jeff. 494 00:26:58,750 --> 00:27:01,630 S5: Well, yeah. And what I learned was that they, you, 495 00:27:01,710 --> 00:27:06,150 S5: you go through these cycles, it takes about 90 minutes approximately. 496 00:27:06,550 --> 00:27:10,150 S5: So when my daughter was born, I started planning on 497 00:27:10,150 --> 00:27:14,429 S5: her sleep patterns to, to frame those increments, like three hours, 498 00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:16,669 S5: four and a half, six, seven and a half, all 499 00:27:16,670 --> 00:27:18,750 S5: the way to 12, you know, just in those made 500 00:27:18,750 --> 00:27:23,150 S5: sure it was like divisible by 90 minutes. And it 501 00:27:23,470 --> 00:27:25,820 S5: seemed to like she would wake up. I would expect 502 00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:28,100 S5: her to wake up around a certain time. She would 503 00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:29,860 S5: wake up around that certain time, and it just kind 504 00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:32,300 S5: of seemed like it fit together. 505 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:33,300 S3: So it. 506 00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:33,659 S5: Worked. 507 00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:36,380 S3: She had it worked for you? Yeah. Okay. 508 00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,660 S2: I think Jeff has gotten some kind of sneak peek 509 00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:45,220 S2: into my infant sleep consulting toolkit here, because this is fascinating. 510 00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:49,420 S2: When I have those families where the routine element does 511 00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:52,260 S2: resonate with them, this is exactly what I recommend. And 512 00:27:52,260 --> 00:27:55,020 S2: for that reason, so that you can get all elements 513 00:27:55,020 --> 00:27:57,940 S2: of the full sleep cycle. So as I said, it's 514 00:27:57,940 --> 00:27:59,980 S2: not for everyone, but for families who are like, hey, 515 00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:02,379 S2: we're up for a schedule. We're up for some routine 516 00:28:02,380 --> 00:28:06,380 S2: because we just need to sleep. I often recommend starting 517 00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:10,100 S2: with a three hour cycle that includes a feeding at 518 00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:13,220 S2: the very beginning of the cycle, then awake time, and 519 00:28:13,220 --> 00:28:16,060 S2: then a nap. It spells FAN because most families are 520 00:28:16,100 --> 00:28:19,020 S2: a fan of it. So you do the feeding at 521 00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:20,939 S2: the front end. Say, say we're going to go a 522 00:28:20,940 --> 00:28:24,530 S2: 710 one schedule. So 7 a.m. feeding, than some awake time. 523 00:28:24,530 --> 00:28:27,170 S2: Then the nap would be 8:30 a.m. and go till 524 00:28:27,170 --> 00:28:29,610 S2: 10 a.m., and then rinse and repeat like the back 525 00:28:29,609 --> 00:28:32,889 S2: of a shampoo bottle. So Jeff is absolutely on to 526 00:28:32,890 --> 00:28:35,609 S2: something that is a routine that babies can fall into 527 00:28:35,650 --> 00:28:39,090 S2: quite beautifully. And then just as they get older, you 528 00:28:39,090 --> 00:28:42,570 S2: can kind of stretch that out so often around four months, 529 00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:44,650 S2: because I call it the rule of fours. At about 530 00:28:44,650 --> 00:28:47,370 S2: four months, you can go to about four hours. And 531 00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:49,930 S2: I always encourage families, you want the awake time and 532 00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:52,090 S2: the sleep time to be about equal. So in a 533 00:28:52,090 --> 00:28:54,810 S2: three hour cycle, you have 90 minutes awake, 90 minutes 534 00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:57,450 S2: a nap, and a four hour cycle. It's two hours awake, 535 00:28:57,490 --> 00:29:00,690 S2: two hours of nap. So he's absolutely right. And for 536 00:29:00,690 --> 00:29:03,209 S2: families who are kind of paying attention to, hey, we 537 00:29:03,210 --> 00:29:05,530 S2: want them to get into that restorative sleep and not 538 00:29:05,530 --> 00:29:07,930 S2: just take a bunch of cat naps, then that piece 539 00:29:07,970 --> 00:29:09,530 S2: can be really helpful. 540 00:29:10,090 --> 00:29:15,490 S1: So do you intentionally say in the morning, afternoon sun's really, 541 00:29:15,490 --> 00:29:20,250 S1: really up? Do you intentionally keep the baby awake for 542 00:29:20,410 --> 00:29:24,000 S1: that hour and a half or two hours. Um, bye. 543 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,960 S1: You wouldn't let him listen to our program because they'd 544 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:33,320 S1: go to sleep. But but but you you intentionally, you know, stimulate, 545 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,360 S1: you know, keep the baby stimulated. 546 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,560 S2: It's a yes. But Chris so here's what I would say. 547 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,400 S2: Babies are all different, like we've talked about. And so 548 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,360 S2: the short answer is yes, if they can tolerate it. 549 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,440 S2: So sometimes a newer baby really can't go the distance. 550 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,400 S2: They just don't have an hour and a half of 551 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,000 S2: wake time in them yet because they're teeny. And so 552 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,880 S2: you keep them awake until you're maybe seeing those sleep signals. 553 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,240 S2: Maybe they're rubbing their eyes or getting a little overstimulated 554 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,520 S2: or just a little cranky, a little fussy. You don't 555 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,760 S2: want to wait until it's full blown over the top, 556 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,720 S2: because then you've often missed the window, so to speak. 557 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,680 S2: So I encourage families, hey, if it hasn't quite been 558 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,440 S2: 90 minutes, but you're seeing those tired cues, just do 559 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,840 S2: the nap. Don't set yourself up for a disaster. Because 560 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,910 S2: what we do know is also a tired baby. It's 561 00:30:22,910 --> 00:30:27,310 S2: so counterintuitive, but they actually fight sleep harder. So any 562 00:30:27,310 --> 00:30:29,550 S2: parent who's tried this will be nodding right now as 563 00:30:29,550 --> 00:30:31,350 S2: they're listening. Who said, I think I'm going to try 564 00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:33,230 S2: and keep my baby up later tonight. So they'll sleep 565 00:30:33,230 --> 00:30:37,350 S2: in in the morning. Absolutely. It's a dumpster fire. It 566 00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:40,910 S2: will be. It will completely backfire. And what we know. 567 00:30:41,270 --> 00:30:43,190 S1: Will not be something you want to go into. 568 00:30:43,230 --> 00:30:44,870 S2: No. I'll want to get in my bubble and get 569 00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:47,750 S2: away from the crying baby is what will happen. So 570 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:51,070 S2: it's an interesting and again, it seems counterintuitive, but sleep 571 00:30:51,070 --> 00:30:53,510 S2: begets sleep. And I tell my clients this all the 572 00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:57,110 S2: time a well-rested baby actually sleeps better. So you want 573 00:30:57,150 --> 00:31:00,190 S2: to be encouraging the sleep and not fighting it. But yes, 574 00:31:00,190 --> 00:31:03,630 S2: once they're able to tolerate the 90 minutes awake, then yes. 575 00:31:03,630 --> 00:31:06,990 S2: That's why the awake time happens after the feeding. You 576 00:31:06,990 --> 00:31:09,630 S2: can maybe do burping a diaper change, maybe go for 577 00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:12,070 S2: a walk. Maybe they do their little baths, have some 578 00:31:12,110 --> 00:31:15,430 S2: tummy time. You find those little awake time activities to 579 00:31:15,470 --> 00:31:17,030 S2: get them until that nap time. 580 00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:21,730 S1: Bob is in Denver, Colorado. Bob, why did you call today? 581 00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:26,370 S6: Well, thanks for having me, Chris. I was listening online 582 00:31:26,370 --> 00:31:31,090 S6: and I've enjoyed the conversation with Doctor Thayer. And, um, 583 00:31:32,010 --> 00:31:34,490 S6: I haven't heard everything. So maybe you've covered what I 584 00:31:34,490 --> 00:31:37,730 S6: wanted to ask, but my wife and I disagree on, 585 00:31:38,090 --> 00:31:41,290 S6: you know, whether to let him cry or to. She 586 00:31:41,290 --> 00:31:43,450 S6: wants she can't tolerate it. She wants to pick him up, 587 00:31:43,450 --> 00:31:45,970 S6: walk with him till he goes to sleep or rock him. 588 00:31:46,170 --> 00:31:49,050 S6: And my mom always said, you let them cry themselves 589 00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:53,130 S6: to sleep and that's better training. So that's my first question. 590 00:31:53,170 --> 00:31:55,090 S1: Okay, wait, wait, let me stop you. Tell me first 591 00:31:55,090 --> 00:31:57,090 S1: who is him? What is his name? 592 00:31:58,410 --> 00:31:59,730 S6: Her son. Who is Josh? 593 00:32:00,010 --> 00:32:02,130 S1: Josh. Okay. And how old is Josh? 594 00:32:02,890 --> 00:32:04,490 S6: Josh is four months. 595 00:32:04,650 --> 00:32:08,010 S1: Four months. Okay, perfect. Okay. Uh, and then your second 596 00:32:08,010 --> 00:32:08,890 S1: question was. 597 00:32:09,850 --> 00:32:13,210 S6: Well, I've also heard about sleep training, which I haven't 598 00:32:13,210 --> 00:32:15,650 S6: looked it up. I don't really understand it, but I'm 599 00:32:15,810 --> 00:32:18,720 S6: curious when you should begin that. And are we too 600 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,920 S6: early or too late? 601 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,080 S1: Great. The early are just the person because I was 602 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,200 S1: going to tell this story. 603 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,040 S2: Yes, Chris, this is perfect. 604 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,640 S1: My wife and me, you know, a long time, 40 605 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,120 S1: years ago. Uh, but you're you're doing exactly the same thing. 606 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,680 S1: So address Bob, and then I'll tell my story. 607 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,920 S2: Yes, yes. So I know parents often don't see this 608 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,080 S2: the same way. And this also is why setting the 609 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,520 S2: intention is so important or picking your framework. Because what 610 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,280 S2: I've found is when I do an intake call with 611 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,440 S2: a client, I often start with asking them, what is 612 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,880 S2: your tolerance for crying? And what I find is it's 613 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,640 S2: often different. So maybe the husband is like, hey, it 614 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,280 S2: doesn't really bother me the same way. I can go 615 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,760 S2: maybe 20 minutes before I want to pull my hair out. 616 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,600 S2: And the mom is saying, I can only last about 617 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,120 S2: three minutes. And to be fair, sometimes it's vice versa. 618 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,600 S2: Sometimes the mom is a toughie and she can go 619 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,520 S2: a long time and the dad can't. But it's really 620 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,470 S2: worth talking about that first, because there's kind of this 621 00:33:20,790 --> 00:33:23,030 S2: challenge that comes up if you're going to bump into 622 00:33:23,070 --> 00:33:26,550 S2: each other and, and have a have a difficulty where 623 00:33:26,550 --> 00:33:28,270 S2: one of you wants to go and quote, kind of 624 00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:30,270 S2: rescue the baby, pick him up, etc.. And one of 625 00:33:30,270 --> 00:33:31,710 S2: you is like, we've got to, we've got to stay 626 00:33:31,710 --> 00:33:35,150 S2: the course here. So my suggestion is talk about those 627 00:33:35,150 --> 00:33:37,950 S2: crying tolerances first. See if you can come into alignment. 628 00:33:37,950 --> 00:33:39,790 S2: Maybe one of you needs to come a little bit 629 00:33:39,790 --> 00:33:41,310 S2: toward each other and you've got to meet in the 630 00:33:41,310 --> 00:33:43,630 S2: middle a little. The one who's more uncomfortable maybe needs 631 00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:46,910 S2: to wait a little longer. The one who's more comfortable 632 00:33:46,910 --> 00:33:49,630 S2: maybe needs to be okay going in a little sooner. 633 00:33:49,630 --> 00:33:52,030 S2: But another thing that can be really helpful is just 634 00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:54,790 S2: to kind of set some time frames. Maybe you say, okay, 635 00:33:54,790 --> 00:33:57,070 S2: we're going to set a timer and we're going to 636 00:33:57,230 --> 00:33:59,710 S2: try and let them work it out for five minutes. 637 00:33:59,710 --> 00:34:01,830 S2: And then if it's not working out, we'll go check 638 00:34:01,830 --> 00:34:03,950 S2: on them. You know, pat their back, talk to them, 639 00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:06,750 S2: but not pick them up. I usually recommend if you 640 00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:09,149 S2: are slowly working on sleep training, not to pick them up, 641 00:34:09,150 --> 00:34:10,910 S2: because then when you set them down, guess what? You 642 00:34:10,910 --> 00:34:14,630 S2: just started back over at minute zero. So talking together 643 00:34:14,630 --> 00:34:17,380 S2: about crying tolerance is big. And then talking about maybe 644 00:34:17,380 --> 00:34:20,819 S2: some incremental time frames after five minutes, maybe you set 645 00:34:20,820 --> 00:34:23,299 S2: the timer for eight. I also want to say here 646 00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:26,780 S2: that many parents don't understand that for a lot of babies, 647 00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:30,660 S2: crying is actually part of their self-soothing routine. It's part 648 00:34:30,660 --> 00:34:33,620 S2: of what they do to fall asleep. And so if 649 00:34:33,620 --> 00:34:37,460 S2: we short circuit that, sometimes we're actually doing them a disservice, 650 00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:39,500 S2: even if we think we're going in to comfort them. 651 00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:43,260 S2: One delightful example. I had a mom who her personal 652 00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:46,219 S2: tolerance was ten minutes. So she was always going in 653 00:34:46,219 --> 00:34:49,020 S2: after ten minutes. I met with her and said, today 654 00:34:49,020 --> 00:34:50,620 S2: I'm going to sit with you because I know it's 655 00:34:50,620 --> 00:34:53,339 S2: uncomfortable for you to hear your son cry. And let's 656 00:34:53,340 --> 00:34:56,420 S2: just push that envelope a little bit. This little buddy 657 00:34:56,620 --> 00:34:59,339 S2: fell asleep after 11 minutes and did that until he 658 00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:04,140 S2: turned two. So his personal sleep cycle was, I need 659 00:35:04,140 --> 00:35:06,460 S2: to cry for 11 minutes and then I'm out. And 660 00:35:06,460 --> 00:35:10,060 S2: she just had never gotten there. So it's really fascinating. 661 00:35:10,060 --> 00:35:11,819 S2: But I also want to hear your story, Chris. So 662 00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:12,420 S2: you go ahead. 663 00:35:12,460 --> 00:35:15,250 S1: Well, yeah, let me get back to Bob before we 664 00:35:15,290 --> 00:35:17,370 S1: before I tell you my story. Okay. Because it's going 665 00:35:17,410 --> 00:35:20,210 S1: to take about an hour to get this. So, Bob, 666 00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:23,210 S1: does that help for you and your wife, do you think? 667 00:35:24,130 --> 00:35:28,330 S6: Extremely. Because her tolerance is less than ten minutes. So 668 00:35:28,330 --> 00:35:31,450 S6: I will relate that story. Plus we're going to talk 669 00:35:31,450 --> 00:35:35,969 S6: about I need to compromise some. So, uh, and we'll 670 00:35:35,969 --> 00:35:39,330 S6: leave my mother's beliefs out of this and find, find 671 00:35:39,330 --> 00:35:42,850 S6: what works for us. But I love the ten and 672 00:35:42,850 --> 00:35:47,689 S6: 11 minute story about when you sat with that mother. So, uh, 673 00:35:47,730 --> 00:35:51,009 S6: that's great insight. Is there a time where it's too 674 00:35:51,010 --> 00:35:52,810 S6: late to start sleep training? 675 00:35:53,010 --> 00:35:54,969 S2: That is such a good question. And it sounds like 676 00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:56,850 S2: you kind of hopped on maybe mid-stream. And we did 677 00:35:56,890 --> 00:35:59,250 S2: talk a little bit about there's not really a too soon. 678 00:35:59,250 --> 00:36:01,890 S2: And some parents think that, but I also love this 679 00:36:01,890 --> 00:36:04,370 S2: question because there's really not a too late either. I 680 00:36:04,370 --> 00:36:07,210 S2: feel like if there's listeners here who maybe think, oh, 681 00:36:07,250 --> 00:36:10,169 S2: the ship has sailed, I've missed the boat, you might 682 00:36:10,210 --> 00:36:13,990 S2: have fallen into some tricky sleep habits. But the truth is, 683 00:36:13,989 --> 00:36:16,990 S2: even if you have some less than desirable things going on, 684 00:36:16,989 --> 00:36:19,950 S2: please don't panic. It's rarely too late to make some 685 00:36:19,950 --> 00:36:23,030 S2: meaningful course corrections and get back on track. 686 00:36:23,230 --> 00:36:27,350 S1: Yes. So there's you're saying there's hope? Yes, that's what 687 00:36:27,350 --> 00:36:30,710 S1: you're saying. You're saying there's hope. Uh, okay. So let 688 00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:32,910 S1: me take our final break. And then when we come back, 689 00:36:32,910 --> 00:36:35,750 S1: I'll tell you all that happened. Bob. God bless you, friend. 690 00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:38,509 S1: Thank you for calling about Josh. Give him a big 691 00:36:38,510 --> 00:36:41,230 S1: hug for us and hope he sleeps through the night real, 692 00:36:41,230 --> 00:36:44,750 S1: real soon. I'll tell you what happened to the wife 693 00:36:44,750 --> 00:36:47,509 S1: of my youth and myself and the conflict we had. 694 00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:50,669 S1: It's actually the opposite of what Bob just talked about. 695 00:36:50,670 --> 00:37:02,430 S1: We'll do that straight ahead on Chris Fabry Live. This 696 00:37:02,430 --> 00:37:04,870 S1: program has gone so quickly. If you know somebody who 697 00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:07,430 S1: has an infant in the home and they're struggling with this, 698 00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:10,230 S1: make sure you tell them you listen to the podcast 699 00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:14,140 S1: with Dena Thayer here on Chris Fabry Live, and send 700 00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:18,300 S1: them to the website, chris.org, because that article from folks 701 00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:21,939 S1: on the Family Infant Sleep Laying Foundation. We have that 702 00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:25,980 S1: linked as well at Chris Fabry live.org. Okay, so it 703 00:37:25,980 --> 00:37:28,779 S1: was 40 years ago. We brought this little bundle of 704 00:37:28,780 --> 00:37:31,899 S1: joy home. She was born in March, so it was 705 00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:36,660 S1: probably sometime around April or May that my wife made 706 00:37:36,660 --> 00:37:39,739 S1: the decision. We're going to let her cry like you 707 00:37:39,739 --> 00:37:42,140 S1: were talking about a little earlier. We're going to let 708 00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:45,540 S1: her cry a longer time, not all the way through 709 00:37:45,540 --> 00:37:47,580 S1: the night, but we're going to let her cry. Extended 710 00:37:47,580 --> 00:37:52,780 S1: period of time. We lived in a studio apartment, so 711 00:37:52,940 --> 00:37:55,939 S1: it's a, you know, studio on the corner and then 712 00:37:55,940 --> 00:37:58,339 S1: one bedroom next to it, one bedroom on the other 713 00:37:58,340 --> 00:38:03,660 S1: side in Chicago. And so part of me was, oh, 714 00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:06,100 S1: they're going to kick us out of here. You know, 715 00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:08,379 S1: it's like a dog that barks all day long. They're 716 00:38:08,380 --> 00:38:09,899 S1: going to kick us out of here. If they got 717 00:38:09,940 --> 00:38:12,650 S1: a baby that's crying in the middle of the night. 718 00:38:12,650 --> 00:38:15,810 S1: And we happen to know the the person who lived 719 00:38:15,810 --> 00:38:17,770 S1: right next door. And she said, don't worry about it. 720 00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:20,489 S1: My bedroom's on the other side, so that should have 721 00:38:20,489 --> 00:38:24,610 S1: allayed my fears. But every time our firstborn would cry, 722 00:38:25,330 --> 00:38:29,649 S1: I would think, she's dying in there. You you've got to. 723 00:38:29,770 --> 00:38:32,250 S1: You got to pick her up. What are you doing? 724 00:38:32,410 --> 00:38:36,330 S1: And my wife kept saying, look, here's, here's. And she 725 00:38:36,330 --> 00:38:38,450 S1: told me the same thing that you were saying, Dina, 726 00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:40,850 S1: is that she would calm my fears down. She's not 727 00:38:40,850 --> 00:38:43,049 S1: going to die. This is part of the process. We 728 00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:46,129 S1: can do, you know, ten minutes, 15 minutes. Let's just 729 00:38:46,130 --> 00:38:50,930 S1: see what happens here. And I can remember the night that, um, 730 00:38:51,530 --> 00:38:54,569 S1: my in-laws gave me this, uh, headset. It was a, 731 00:38:54,770 --> 00:38:58,650 S1: it was the best Panasonic, uh, earphones that I ever 732 00:38:58,650 --> 00:39:02,609 S1: had that were, uh, stereo. And so I put them 733 00:39:02,610 --> 00:39:04,810 S1: on and I turned it up loud and I got 734 00:39:04,810 --> 00:39:08,290 S1: in the chair and we're, you know, as far away 735 00:39:08,290 --> 00:39:10,239 S1: as I could get, but it's a studio apartment. Where 736 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,880 S1: are you going to go? And I turned the earphones 737 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,080 S1: up and I just steamed. It's like, this baby is 738 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,360 S1: going to die. And. And she doesn't care about the baby. 739 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,760 S1: And I care about the baby and. Go ahead. Ryan. Play. Play. 740 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,319 S1: So here's what I heard. I heard the baby and 741 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,719 S1: I'm listening to the music. We built this city or 742 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:36,759 S1: something like that. And pretty soon things start to, you know, the. 743 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:45,879 S1: And she settles down and she. And she goes to sleep. 744 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,480 S1: And it was like, who is this that I've married? 745 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,640 S1: How did she know that that happened? And, and it did. 746 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,320 S1: And it was like, why don't I trust her more 747 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,760 S1: with these things? But it hit the nerve of me 748 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,120 S1: as a protective dad. It's like, I don't want my 749 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,220 S1: children to suffer, number one. And then I realized, wait 750 00:40:09,219 --> 00:40:13,020 S1: a minute, that's really not it. It's not that I 751 00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:15,620 S1: don't want my children to suffer. It's that I don't 752 00:40:15,620 --> 00:40:18,660 S1: want to suffer. I don't want to go through, you know, 753 00:40:18,739 --> 00:40:21,340 S1: this hard part to get to the, you know, the 754 00:40:21,420 --> 00:40:24,819 S1: better part. It's more about me. That was kind of 755 00:40:24,860 --> 00:40:27,580 S1: mixed in there as well. And maybe I'm being too 756 00:40:27,580 --> 00:40:29,540 S1: hard on myself. Do you know what do you think? 757 00:40:30,140 --> 00:40:32,340 S2: I think you're being fairly accurate, but it's actually a 758 00:40:32,340 --> 00:40:36,060 S2: really good self-awareness too, because I don't know that parents 759 00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:40,540 S2: always see the selfishness in it. There's there is a 760 00:40:40,580 --> 00:40:42,779 S2: piece where we want to be comfortable and we don't 761 00:40:42,780 --> 00:40:45,580 S2: want to listen to it. And even physiologically, I won't 762 00:40:45,580 --> 00:40:48,060 S2: go into all the chemistry and hormones and all the 763 00:40:48,060 --> 00:40:51,460 S2: things that happen, but we are actually wired to be 764 00:40:51,460 --> 00:40:56,540 S2: uniquely distressed by our own baby crying. So moms often 765 00:40:56,540 --> 00:40:58,859 S2: can hear other babies cry. It does not impact them 766 00:40:58,860 --> 00:41:01,620 S2: the same way as their own baby. So you, as 767 00:41:01,620 --> 00:41:04,739 S2: a dad, being so dialed in to your daughter being upset, 768 00:41:04,739 --> 00:41:07,609 S2: that's actually really normal. It's part of how God designed us, 769 00:41:07,610 --> 00:41:09,850 S2: and it's a good thing so that we'll be responsive 770 00:41:09,850 --> 00:41:12,650 S2: to our children and not neglect them and ignore them. 771 00:41:13,130 --> 00:41:16,930 S2: But where your wife also was correct is that sometimes 772 00:41:16,930 --> 00:41:18,970 S2: we need to flip the switch. I talk about being 773 00:41:18,969 --> 00:41:23,049 S2: a needs based parent, and instead of having the goal 774 00:41:23,050 --> 00:41:26,569 S2: of how we approach crying being to stop the crying, 775 00:41:26,770 --> 00:41:28,930 S2: the goal becomes how do I meet the need the 776 00:41:28,930 --> 00:41:31,609 S2: cry is telling me about? And if you're hearing a 777 00:41:31,610 --> 00:41:34,730 S2: tired cry, the need is sleep. So the best thing 778 00:41:34,730 --> 00:41:38,410 S2: you can do is continue to maybe, maybe wait, maybe push, pause, 779 00:41:38,450 --> 00:41:40,850 S2: see if they can work it out and get some sleep. 780 00:41:42,010 --> 00:41:46,410 S1: And you're loving the child all through that while you're 781 00:41:46,410 --> 00:41:50,250 S1: also taking care of your own needs. Let's say there's, 782 00:41:50,290 --> 00:41:52,770 S1: there are two parents and they both have, you know, 783 00:41:52,810 --> 00:41:55,610 S1: schedules that they need to, you know, be awake in 784 00:41:55,650 --> 00:41:58,530 S1: the day and they can't both stay up all, all 785 00:41:58,530 --> 00:42:00,969 S1: night long. What do you suggest? Does one get a 786 00:42:00,969 --> 00:42:03,370 S1: hotel room someplace to get some sleep? 787 00:42:03,810 --> 00:42:07,480 S2: Yeah. And your your situation in a studio is not uncommon. 788 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,520 S2: I've had families in a studio apartment, and that's especially tricky. 789 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,239 S2: You really can't escape it, right? For lack of a 790 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,880 S2: better word. And so often they will be the ones 791 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,720 S2: who are ready to try some gentle routine, because that 792 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,360 S2: schedule often helps the sleeping at night. If we clean 793 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,960 S2: up the daytime routine, we often see the night follow suit. 794 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,319 S2: So some clients are confused. They're like, why aren't you 795 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:31,920 S2: helping me with the night? Let me help you with 796 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,560 S2: the day and watch what happens. So that's, that's really key. 797 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,680 S2: But yeah, you might need a break or you might 798 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,560 S2: choose to say, hey, we both work, so we need 799 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,640 S2: to start this on a weekend where we can have 800 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,759 S2: a couple of really tired days that aren't going to 801 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,879 S2: mess us up because we're not getting up early or 802 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:46,560 S2: what have you. 803 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,200 S1: What about the sleep space? Talk about the crib. 804 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,919 S2: Yes, the crib is an important thing. I'm a big 805 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,400 S2: fan of babies having their own sleep space now. Certainly 806 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,840 S2: when a baby is tiny and if a mom is nursing, 807 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,640 S2: or even if you're bottle feeding in the night, it's 808 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,230 S2: nice to have baby close by. So you might want 809 00:43:04,270 --> 00:43:07,230 S2: to choose a bassinet in your room, in the master bedroom, 810 00:43:07,230 --> 00:43:10,870 S2: whatever that setup is. But really what we're seeing is 811 00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:14,550 S2: the recommendations really are that babies have their own sleep space. 812 00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:16,430 S2: A lot of us have heard of the ABCs of 813 00:43:16,430 --> 00:43:19,509 S2: Safe Sleep. So that baby is A alone B on 814 00:43:19,550 --> 00:43:22,790 S2: their back and C in a crib or bassinet separate 815 00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:25,870 S2: from being in the parent's bed. And that's just the science, 816 00:43:25,870 --> 00:43:29,910 S2: even for preventing things like SIDs. Now, as I said before, 817 00:43:29,950 --> 00:43:34,109 S2: just like one parenting or sleep style is not one 818 00:43:34,110 --> 00:43:36,430 S2: size fits all. Neither is this. And you might have 819 00:43:36,430 --> 00:43:39,709 S2: extenuating circumstances. For instance, I had a baby with reflux. 820 00:43:39,950 --> 00:43:43,190 S2: Hearing him choke on his own spit up was terrifying 821 00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:45,230 S2: for me when he was on his back, so I 822 00:43:45,230 --> 00:43:48,270 S2: actually raised the head of his bassinet, stuck a phone 823 00:43:48,270 --> 00:43:50,950 S2: book under it. I'm dating myself here. We had phone 824 00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:53,390 S2: books back in the day, kids, and put a phone 825 00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:55,430 S2: book under it, and he did sleep on his tummy. 826 00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:59,109 S2: But it was again mitigating the other health challenge we 827 00:43:59,110 --> 00:44:01,430 S2: had going on with the reflux. So you might have 828 00:44:01,430 --> 00:44:03,779 S2: to make some tweaks that make you comfortable for your 829 00:44:03,780 --> 00:44:07,100 S2: own baby's safety. But in general, having them in their 830 00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:09,219 S2: own space is great. And this is another one where 831 00:44:09,219 --> 00:44:11,419 S2: the earlier you start that, the better it goes. If 832 00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:12,859 S2: they've been in your bed for a while and now 833 00:44:12,860 --> 00:44:15,140 S2: you suddenly try to pop them in the nursery, they're 834 00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:18,739 S2: probably going to have an opinion about that. And it's 835 00:44:18,739 --> 00:44:21,100 S2: going to sound like that sound effect Ryan's been using. 836 00:44:21,140 --> 00:44:22,980 S1: Yeah. Okay, Ryan, play it again. We got to hear 837 00:44:22,980 --> 00:44:25,740 S1: that one more time before we end here. Is there 838 00:44:25,739 --> 00:44:30,300 S1: a correlation? I just thought of this between the sleep 839 00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:33,340 S1: plan that you're talking about. And then later on potty training. 840 00:44:33,380 --> 00:44:35,140 S1: Do you see any similarities there? 841 00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:39,220 S2: I mostly see that it's the similarities with the parents 842 00:44:39,219 --> 00:44:42,380 S2: that if they're the structure people, they'll often also approach 843 00:44:42,380 --> 00:44:45,379 S2: potty training with structure. And the families who are more 844 00:44:45,380 --> 00:44:47,700 S2: freeform about sleep are also the ones who are like, 845 00:44:47,739 --> 00:44:51,899 S2: they'll figure it out eventually and they're not gonna, they'll 846 00:44:51,900 --> 00:44:53,620 S2: be potty trained by the time they go to kindergarten. 847 00:44:53,620 --> 00:44:55,580 S2: It'll be fine. So a lot of it is more 848 00:44:55,620 --> 00:44:59,660 S2: the parenting style than does sleeping well always correlate to 849 00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:01,799 S2: potty training? Sometimes it does, but I don't think you 850 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,320 S2: can draw. You can maybe draw a dotted line, not 851 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:05,800 S2: a solid line to that. 852 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,160 S1: Yes. Uh, and with five children, you said you have 853 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,719 S1: five children. We had nine. It was very much the 854 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,240 S1: the first one was like, what do we do here? 855 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,600 S1: And we've got all these questions. And by the ninth one, 856 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,080 S1: it's like, you know, by the time he gets to college, 857 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:20,200 S1: he'll figure it out. 858 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,800 S2: Yes. You calm down a lot, right? The rough edges 859 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:23,800 S2: get sanded off. 860 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,600 S1: Well, and that's why I love the doula or the friend, 861 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,800 S1: you know, who has some children and has some years 862 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,640 S1: under their belt to come alongside and just give that comfort. 863 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,319 S1: It's going to be okay. You're going to figure this out. 864 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,920 S1: The child's going to figure it out. Uh, this has 865 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,280 S1: been so good. Dina, thank you for coming alongside us today. 866 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,279 S1: Any any final words of encouragement for our friends? 867 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,840 S2: I would just say, hang in there. It really is 868 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,880 S2: worth it. And most babies do figure it out. So 869 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,200 S2: hang in there. Keep your patience on board and you'll 870 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:54,800 S2: get there. 871 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,920 S1: Yeah. And I hope you get some sleep even tonight, 872 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,230 S1: especially with Josh that we were hearing about Dina. God 873 00:46:01,230 --> 00:46:04,030 S1: bless you, friend. Thanks for coming alongside us today. 874 00:46:04,190 --> 00:46:05,230 S2: Thanks for having me. 875 00:46:05,350 --> 00:46:07,989 S1: If you go to Chris Fabry live.org, you will see 876 00:46:07,989 --> 00:46:10,630 S1: a link to that article we've been talking about from 877 00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:14,790 S1: focus on the family, written by Dina. Infant sleep laying 878 00:46:14,790 --> 00:46:18,950 S1: the foundation. Just go to Chris Fabry live.org. You'll see 879 00:46:18,950 --> 00:46:22,230 S1: all the links right there. Reach out to us on Facebook. 880 00:46:22,270 --> 00:46:24,750 S1: Send an email, respond to the program today if it 881 00:46:24,750 --> 00:46:27,549 S1: was helpful to you. And don't you dare miss. Tomorrow 882 00:46:28,030 --> 00:46:31,830 S1: we have another best of broadcast with this question. What 883 00:46:31,830 --> 00:46:33,870 S1: if the key to a meaningful life is not in 884 00:46:33,870 --> 00:46:37,790 S1: finding all the answers? But what if it's in asking 885 00:46:37,790 --> 00:46:42,830 S1: better questions? This conversation from last October, I think is 886 00:46:42,830 --> 00:46:45,629 S1: going to be a game changer for you. It was 887 00:46:45,630 --> 00:46:48,069 S1: for me, and we'll do it right here tomorrow. On 888 00:46:48,070 --> 00:46:51,150 S1: Chris Fabry live production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of 889 00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:52,870 S1: Moody Bible Institute.