1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 S1: Hi friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,160 S1: downloading this podcast, and I hope you hear something that 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,560 S1: will really encourage and edify you. But before you start 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,400 S1: to listen, let me take a moment of your time 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,399 S1: and tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called 6 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,640 S1: secure How to Have a Healthy Attachment to God. And 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: it follows that very often, whatever our relationship is like 8 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 S1: with authority figures, predominantly our parents, we somehow transferred to 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,040 S1: how we see God. So if we have an angry parent, 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,319 S1: he's an angry God. If it's a distant parent, he's 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,520 S1: a God who's not there. I think it's important we 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 S1: understand who God really is. And in this wonderful book 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,760 S1: called secure, you're going to discover the character of God 14 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 S1: and how deeply in love God is with you. It's 15 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,839 S1: our truth tool. Our truth tools are my way of 16 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 S1: saying thank you because we are listener supported radio. So 17 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: if you'd like a copy of secure, just call eight 7758. 18 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,760 S1: That's eight 7758. Give a gift of any amount. My 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: way of saying thank you for supporting the program is 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 S1: I'll send you a copy of secure. You can also 21 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: do this online at in the Market with Janet Parshall. 22 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,560 S1: Scroll to the bottom of the page. There's the cover 23 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,890 S1: of the book secure. Click on the photo. Go right 24 00:01:01,890 --> 00:01:03,930 S1: on through. Make your donation and we'll send you a 25 00:01:03,930 --> 00:01:06,730 S1: copy again of secure. If you want to consider becoming 26 00:01:06,730 --> 00:01:09,890 S1: a partial partner, that is the ever increasing circle of 27 00:01:09,890 --> 00:01:12,050 S1: friends who give every single month at a level of 28 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:14,290 S1: their own choosing. And my way of saying thank you 29 00:01:14,290 --> 00:01:16,770 S1: is this you always get the truth tool for each 30 00:01:16,770 --> 00:01:18,930 S1: and every month. And in addition to that, you get 31 00:01:18,930 --> 00:01:21,850 S1: a weekly newsletter that includes some of my writing and 32 00:01:21,850 --> 00:01:24,410 S1: a little audio piece just for my partial partners. So 33 00:01:24,410 --> 00:01:27,330 S1: either way, thank you in advance for prayerfully considering the 34 00:01:27,330 --> 00:01:30,650 S1: opportunity to financially support in the market with Janet partial 35 00:01:30,650 --> 00:01:32,690 S1: and keeping it on the air now, I hope you 36 00:01:32,730 --> 00:01:34,890 S1: hear something that will encourage you to get out and 37 00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:37,850 S1: influence and occupy in the marketplace of ideas. 38 00:01:38,890 --> 00:01:40,450 S2: Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. 39 00:01:40,730 --> 00:01:43,090 S3: The conference was over. The president won a pledge. 40 00:01:43,130 --> 00:01:45,209 S4: Americans worshiping government over God. 41 00:01:45,530 --> 00:01:48,890 S5: Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years. 42 00:01:48,890 --> 00:01:51,010 S6: The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated. 43 00:02:06,830 --> 00:02:07,350 S5: Hi friends. 44 00:02:07,350 --> 00:02:09,910 S1: Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you 45 00:02:09,910 --> 00:02:12,790 S1: so much for joining us this hour. Okay, I'm going 46 00:02:12,790 --> 00:02:14,630 S1: to say this slowly. I'm going to say this carefully 47 00:02:14,630 --> 00:02:17,829 S1: so that you don't turn and exit the room. How 48 00:02:17,830 --> 00:02:20,710 S1: many of you think we need a better theology of suffering? 49 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:23,829 S1: Come back, come back. You know, we're going to talk 50 00:02:23,830 --> 00:02:26,310 S1: about that this hour. We're going to talk about suffering 51 00:02:26,510 --> 00:02:29,590 S1: for the body of believers writ large. But we're particularly 52 00:02:29,630 --> 00:02:32,790 S1: we're particularly going to talk about suffering as it applies 53 00:02:32,790 --> 00:02:35,389 S1: to our friends who are missionaries. And by the way, 54 00:02:35,430 --> 00:02:37,230 S1: missionary doesn't mean that you have to be serving in 55 00:02:37,230 --> 00:02:41,230 S1: a foreign country your missionary, because that land between your 56 00:02:41,230 --> 00:02:43,350 S1: two feet is your mission field. If God hasn't called 57 00:02:43,350 --> 00:02:46,510 S1: you someplace else. So I am really looking forward to 58 00:02:46,510 --> 00:02:50,190 S1: this conversation. Is it easy? No. Is it necessary? Absolutely. 59 00:02:50,190 --> 00:02:54,190 S1: Because we live in a sensate, post-modern world. How do 60 00:02:54,190 --> 00:02:56,190 S1: I know? Stand in the checkout line at the grocery store. 61 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,720 S1: Everything you read is about making you thinner, smarter, richer, prettier. 62 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,639 S1: You name it, it's all about you. It's a me 63 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,200 S1: centric world, and the idea of suffering is so anathema 64 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,040 S1: that we've got companies out there that say, if you 65 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,560 S1: just put this stuff in or on your skin, or 66 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,680 S1: you take this pill, or you sleep on this mattress, 67 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,080 S1: or you drink that green stuff, you're going to live 68 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,600 S1: to be 100. And we're constantly trying to outrun death 69 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,799 S1: because we want to avoid suffering at all costs. It's 70 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,720 S1: why we have a drug and alcohol problem. Nobody wakes 71 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,480 S1: up and says, I know I want to be a 72 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,720 S1: drug addict. They're numbing a pain because they can't deal 73 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,200 S1: with whatever the hurt and the brokenness is in their life, 74 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,080 S1: by the way. And so we really need to better 75 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,480 S1: understand suffering. And here's the biggest problem of all. Oh, 76 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,240 S1: it's the prince of the air who loves to whisper 77 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,720 S1: in your ear, well, you're suffering so God can't possibly 78 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,080 S1: love you. You're suffering. Oh, you don't have enough faith. 79 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,840 S1: You're suffering. Well, then you didn't have a good enough 80 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,400 S1: prayer life, and we've allowed the enemy to take some 81 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,560 S1: territory in our thought life on this, and it needs 82 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,840 S1: to be taken care of. As my friend Doctor Carl 83 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,850 S1: Payne says, we need to kick Satan to the curb 84 00:03:55,850 --> 00:03:57,770 S1: on this. And I have a funny feeling that's going 85 00:03:57,770 --> 00:03:59,810 S1: to happen if you're listening carefully this hour. And if 86 00:03:59,850 --> 00:04:02,850 S1: you need read Matt Rhodes brand new book called Persecution 87 00:04:02,850 --> 00:04:07,490 S1: in Missions A Practical Theology. Matt grew up in San Diego, California. 88 00:04:07,490 --> 00:04:09,410 S1: His parents led him to the Lord when he was 89 00:04:09,410 --> 00:04:13,890 S1: a small child. He's lived in North Africa since 2011, 90 00:04:13,890 --> 00:04:16,050 S1: where he and his wife, Kim, serve as part of 91 00:04:16,050 --> 00:04:19,290 S1: a church planting team to a previously unengaged people group. Now, 92 00:04:19,290 --> 00:04:21,570 S1: a couple of things. Number one, I'm never going to 93 00:04:21,610 --> 00:04:23,489 S1: name the country and I'm doing that for security reasons. 94 00:04:23,490 --> 00:04:25,530 S1: Number two, let me just tell you, it's real late 95 00:04:25,529 --> 00:04:28,730 S1: at night. And God bless Matt, who graciously enough said 96 00:04:28,730 --> 00:04:30,170 S1: he was going to stay up so he could talk 97 00:04:30,170 --> 00:04:33,089 S1: to people all the way from Guam to the Cayman 98 00:04:33,089 --> 00:04:36,130 S1: Islands and a whole lot of places in between. And 99 00:04:36,130 --> 00:04:39,690 S1: we're doing this in real time because we couldn't pre-record this. 100 00:04:39,690 --> 00:04:42,010 S1: So we want you to understand the sacrifice right out 101 00:04:42,010 --> 00:04:43,770 S1: of the gate that Matt is making for us. And 102 00:04:43,770 --> 00:04:45,570 S1: I so appreciate it, man. I want to tell you 103 00:04:45,570 --> 00:04:48,610 S1: on a personal note. Wow. I mean, I'm thank you 104 00:04:48,610 --> 00:04:50,770 S1: so much. It is one of the sticky wickets for 105 00:04:50,770 --> 00:04:53,730 S1: the church writ large. I think that somehow we come 106 00:04:53,730 --> 00:04:56,020 S1: to faith in Jesus Christ and everything is just terrific. 107 00:04:56,020 --> 00:04:57,859 S1: And you live happily ever after. And yet, oh, we 108 00:04:57,900 --> 00:05:00,300 S1: skip that part that says we're invited to join in 109 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:03,420 S1: the fellowship of his suffering, or to count it all joy. 110 00:05:03,420 --> 00:05:06,700 S1: Or when not, if those fiery trials come. So we 111 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:08,940 S1: don't do suffering well here in the East. I think 112 00:05:08,940 --> 00:05:11,099 S1: so many of my brothers and sisters in other parts 113 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:13,700 S1: of the globe where they're persecuted for their faith, they 114 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:15,380 S1: have this down a whole lot better than we do. 115 00:05:15,380 --> 00:05:18,580 S1: So we here in the West need this conversation. So, 116 00:05:18,580 --> 00:05:20,820 S1: so many questions to ask you. First of all, why missions? 117 00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:22,420 S1: Why did you choose to go on the mission field? 118 00:05:24,260 --> 00:05:26,700 S7: You know, I, I really wanted to have a sense 119 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:29,700 S7: of calling when I was, I guess, in college and 120 00:05:29,700 --> 00:05:32,260 S7: trying to figure out what to do. And in the end, 121 00:05:32,260 --> 00:05:34,620 S7: for me, that that didn't really happen. It just seemed 122 00:05:34,620 --> 00:05:38,300 S7: like looking at the at the things I was able 123 00:05:38,300 --> 00:05:39,940 S7: to do with my life and the gifts that God 124 00:05:39,940 --> 00:05:41,900 S7: had given me. It seemed like something that would be 125 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:47,380 S7: worth a try. And God kept opening doors. And so, um, yeah, 126 00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:49,740 S7: it's just has always seemed to be the place where 127 00:05:49,740 --> 00:05:51,099 S7: I felt I could serve him best. 128 00:05:51,420 --> 00:05:54,960 S1: Wow. How wonderful. No sweat equity there. It just was 129 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,400 S1: like breathing in and out. Um, without naming the country. 130 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,680 S1: Why the particular part of the world where you are? 131 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,640 S1: Did you ever feel a calling any place else? Or 132 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,040 S1: was it always where God has planted you right now? 133 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,599 S7: Um, I did initially. I was hoping to go to, 134 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,840 S7: to Central Asia. Uh, my, my wife and kids and 135 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,960 S7: I were in North Africa now, um, but I, you know, I, 136 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,320 S7: I don't want to speak against people feeling called to 137 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,240 S7: specific areas, but but even before a calling to a 138 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,640 S7: specific area, we have a calling to be witnesses of 139 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,760 S7: Christ in a world that doesn't know him. And so 140 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,040 S7: I was I was basically looking for a place where 141 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,560 S7: I felt that wasn't happening, and where I thought that 142 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,800 S7: I might have the, um, the gifting and where God 143 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,600 S7: might have given me the ability to do it. So 144 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,440 S7: where we are now, um, basically we, we chose because, um, 145 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,200 S7: people weren't working there before we were able to get in. 146 00:06:51,610 --> 00:06:54,530 S7: And it's a very, very large group of people that 147 00:06:54,529 --> 00:06:55,610 S7: have never heard the gospel. 148 00:06:55,930 --> 00:06:59,369 S1: Mhm. Wow. Well, and by the way, uh, I happen 149 00:06:59,370 --> 00:07:01,170 S1: to know where you are and I love that part 150 00:07:01,170 --> 00:07:03,930 S1: of the world. So I'm so thankful that you're there. Um, 151 00:07:04,170 --> 00:07:06,770 S1: this idea of packing up and moving, you wrote this 152 00:07:06,770 --> 00:07:09,530 S1: book because you wanted people to understand particularly how the 153 00:07:09,530 --> 00:07:12,930 S1: issue of suffering applies within the parameters of missions. So 154 00:07:12,930 --> 00:07:14,410 S1: I think it would help us if we just kind 155 00:07:14,410 --> 00:07:16,970 S1: of started by defining a couple of terms. You do 156 00:07:16,970 --> 00:07:20,170 S1: that in the book as well. Define missions from your perspective. 157 00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:23,930 S7: Right. Um, so one of the things that you said 158 00:07:23,930 --> 00:07:27,690 S7: is that wherever we are is a mission field, and 159 00:07:28,090 --> 00:07:31,890 S7: that's I, I definitely agree that people need to be 160 00:07:31,890 --> 00:07:35,290 S7: sharing the gospel where they are, but I'm not primarily 161 00:07:35,290 --> 00:07:39,490 S7: writing for people who are living in the West. I'm 162 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:42,170 S7: primarily writing here. Um, and this is just a question 163 00:07:42,210 --> 00:07:45,210 S7: of definitions to to narrow the discussion for people who 164 00:07:45,210 --> 00:07:48,250 S7: are living in places where, um, where new believers are 165 00:07:48,250 --> 00:07:49,730 S7: going to face a lot of persecution. 166 00:07:52,740 --> 00:07:55,300 S1: And that's important. So but let me ask you a question, 167 00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:57,060 S1: because I don't want people who are listening to a 168 00:07:57,060 --> 00:08:00,700 S1: conversation thinking, well, this doesn't apply to me. Tell our 169 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:03,140 S1: friends why. Even if you're not serving on a foreign 170 00:08:03,140 --> 00:08:05,580 S1: field right now, what's in this book? I certainly have 171 00:08:05,580 --> 00:08:08,780 S1: been blessed by what I've read. And I serve in Washington, DC, 172 00:08:08,820 --> 00:08:11,300 S1: which is a mission field in and unto itself, by 173 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:13,540 S1: the way, I should point out. But why should our 174 00:08:13,540 --> 00:08:16,740 S1: conversation today apply to anybody who's not necessarily in missions? 175 00:08:17,980 --> 00:08:21,660 S7: Well, for a couple of reasons. Um, and I agree 176 00:08:21,660 --> 00:08:24,940 S7: with you. There are definitely people in the United States, 177 00:08:25,220 --> 00:08:27,700 S7: and anywhere you go who who have not heard the 178 00:08:27,740 --> 00:08:33,179 S7: gospel in, in an understandable way. My, my brothers is 179 00:08:33,300 --> 00:08:37,980 S7: a biology postdoc. And so, um, yeah, he does not 180 00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:42,900 S7: run into a lot of believers in biology, but, um, yeah, 181 00:08:42,940 --> 00:08:46,620 S7: I think that in the United States we can easily 182 00:08:46,620 --> 00:08:50,270 S7: have a false sense of security. We are definitely free 183 00:08:50,270 --> 00:08:52,469 S7: from a lot of the persecution that our brothers and 184 00:08:52,470 --> 00:08:56,830 S7: sisters face in other countries. And yet, at the same time, 185 00:08:57,150 --> 00:09:00,870 S7: we have to remember what human nature is. And within 186 00:09:00,870 --> 00:09:04,030 S7: the next couple of generations, within the next generation, things 187 00:09:04,030 --> 00:09:05,390 S7: could change very quickly. 188 00:09:05,429 --> 00:09:08,590 S1: Yes, I could not agree more. Matt Rhodes is with us. 189 00:09:08,590 --> 00:09:11,710 S1: He joins us from Northern Africa. It's very late at 190 00:09:11,710 --> 00:09:13,670 S1: night where he is, and I am so appreciative of 191 00:09:13,670 --> 00:09:15,630 S1: the fact that he is with us now so that 192 00:09:15,630 --> 00:09:18,150 S1: we can learn from him. His book is called Persecution 193 00:09:18,150 --> 00:09:22,070 S1: in Missions A Practical Theology. All of you on the 194 00:09:22,070 --> 00:09:24,790 S1: mission field. And those of you considering it, I think 195 00:09:24,790 --> 00:09:27,350 S1: this conversation is germane. But for you and me also, 196 00:09:27,590 --> 00:09:29,750 S1: do we have a bigger, broader understanding of suffering? We're 197 00:09:29,750 --> 00:09:41,310 S1: going to get into that right after this. How does 198 00:09:41,309 --> 00:09:43,709 S1: our view of God get distorted? Do you struggle with 199 00:09:43,710 --> 00:09:46,790 S1: feeling close to God? Well, that's why I've chosen secure 200 00:09:46,830 --> 00:09:49,089 S1: how to have a healthy attachment to God as this 201 00:09:49,090 --> 00:09:51,809 S1: month's truth tool. Discover how to counter the lies about 202 00:09:51,809 --> 00:09:55,130 S1: the truth of God's character. Ask for your copy of secure. 203 00:09:55,130 --> 00:09:56,690 S1: When you give a gift of any amount to in 204 00:09:56,730 --> 00:10:02,610 S1: the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go 205 00:10:02,610 --> 00:10:08,449 S1: to in the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with 206 00:10:08,450 --> 00:10:10,890 S1: Matt Rhodes, who's the author of the book Persecution and 207 00:10:10,890 --> 00:10:15,210 S1: Missions A Practical Theology. He has lived in North Africa 208 00:10:15,250 --> 00:10:17,449 S1: since 2011, where he and his wife serve as part 209 00:10:17,450 --> 00:10:22,290 S1: of a church planting team to a previously unengaged people group. So, uh, 210 00:10:22,290 --> 00:10:24,610 S1: when you talk about missions in the way you wrote 211 00:10:24,610 --> 00:10:27,170 S1: this specifically, Matt, just to clarify for my friends, you're 212 00:10:27,170 --> 00:10:29,410 S1: talking about those people who have packed up and called 213 00:10:29,410 --> 00:10:32,690 S1: and are serving in a different place, somewhere on the 214 00:10:32,690 --> 00:10:34,770 S1: earth for the cause of Christ. Give me a little 215 00:10:34,809 --> 00:10:36,530 S1: bit of a crash course. I grew up in a 216 00:10:36,530 --> 00:10:39,050 S1: very missions oriented church. In fact, I lived in a 217 00:10:39,050 --> 00:10:42,250 S1: town that was one of this missionary schools for a 218 00:10:42,250 --> 00:10:46,780 S1: very well known, uh, missionary ministry. Um, and so I, 219 00:10:46,820 --> 00:10:49,059 S1: my best buds in the whole world were MKs, and 220 00:10:49,059 --> 00:10:50,820 S1: we sat on the floor of the barracks on Friday 221 00:10:50,820 --> 00:10:52,380 S1: nights and I would hear stories of what it was 222 00:10:52,380 --> 00:10:54,699 S1: like when they were sharing the gospel in New Guinea 223 00:10:54,900 --> 00:10:56,939 S1: and what it was like to meet people who were 224 00:10:56,940 --> 00:10:59,780 S1: engaged in the occult, and how everything changed when the 225 00:10:59,780 --> 00:11:04,420 S1: gospel was introduced. So I am very interested in missions. 226 00:11:04,580 --> 00:11:06,460 S1: Do you sense from where you are because you've been 227 00:11:06,460 --> 00:11:10,220 S1: doing this since 2011, just your vantage point on the West, 228 00:11:10,220 --> 00:11:12,820 S1: and maybe it's an unfair perspective because you're in North Africa, 229 00:11:12,820 --> 00:11:16,340 S1: but are we as missions oriented now as we have 230 00:11:16,340 --> 00:11:17,580 S1: been or should be? 231 00:11:20,140 --> 00:11:22,660 S7: I think yes and no. I think we're sending out 232 00:11:22,660 --> 00:11:25,940 S7: more and more people than we ever have before. Um, 233 00:11:25,940 --> 00:11:30,980 S7: but I think what you will see is over the last, uh, 20, 30, 234 00:11:31,020 --> 00:11:34,100 S7: 40 years, we've increasingly been sending out people for shorter 235 00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:37,100 S7: and shorter lengths of time. And so it's a real 236 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:41,100 S7: problem for us overseas. Um, the folks that that my 237 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:43,780 S7: wife and I are working with, they speak two different languages. 238 00:11:44,150 --> 00:11:48,510 S7: And so just getting the language down, um, especially if 239 00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:50,630 S7: you want to be mastering both of them is going 240 00:11:50,630 --> 00:11:52,870 S7: to take you probably longer than it would to get 241 00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:55,470 S7: through med school. And so I think what what we're 242 00:11:55,470 --> 00:11:59,990 S7: needing isn't so much bodies as, as people who, who, 243 00:12:00,150 --> 00:12:01,270 S7: who will stay the course. 244 00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:05,430 S1: Yeah. Well noted. So in addition to that, when you 245 00:12:05,429 --> 00:12:07,310 S1: talk about the two different languages, Matt, what do you 246 00:12:07,309 --> 00:12:09,510 S1: do about the Bible? Do you have someone who already 247 00:12:09,510 --> 00:12:11,990 S1: understands it? Has the Bible been translated or sections of 248 00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:13,550 S1: the Bible so that you can use that? 249 00:12:14,670 --> 00:12:17,429 S7: So we're one of those languages is Arabic, and we 250 00:12:17,429 --> 00:12:21,709 S7: do have Arabic translations of the Bible. However, they tend 251 00:12:21,710 --> 00:12:25,550 S7: to be in in higher Arabic and sometimes not very 252 00:12:25,550 --> 00:12:28,230 S7: relevant to the Arabic. People actually speak where we are 253 00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:31,790 S7: and we are translating as well into the tribal language. 254 00:12:32,390 --> 00:12:34,390 S7: And that's been a lot more exciting than I thought 255 00:12:34,390 --> 00:12:35,110 S7: it would be. 256 00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:38,230 S1: Seriously, talk about that, because for some people they might think, oh, 257 00:12:38,270 --> 00:12:40,070 S1: that's got to be the most boring thing in the world. 258 00:12:40,070 --> 00:12:43,240 S1: I am in amazement that people will take a dialect 259 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,640 S1: and translate it. And it's not done overnight, is it? 260 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,079 S1: It takes some real perseverance. 261 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,679 S7: Oh it does. And I think that's actually where where 262 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,360 S7: it gets fun, so to speak. I thought it would 263 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:54,720 S7: just be, you know, you look at a sentence and 264 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,000 S7: you transcribe it into another into another language, but it 265 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,680 S7: actually is a it's a really social project. Um, because 266 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,560 S7: as good as I get in these languages, they'll never 267 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,120 S7: be my mother tongue. And so I'm talking to mother 268 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,280 S7: tongue speakers. Um, how how does this sound to you? 269 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,920 S7: And that's actually been a way that that we've seen 270 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,840 S7: some great conversations open up. Um, we've seen a guy 271 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,240 S7: come to Christ. And so it's both translation but at 272 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,120 S7: the same time, you're doing some, some in-depth ministry. 273 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,000 S1: Yeah. To your point, which I think is very astute, 274 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,800 S1: you would have to. The total immersion in translation necessarily 275 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,120 S1: requires an intersection with the culture, because you're going to 276 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,120 S1: have idiomatic phrases and you're going to have some references 277 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,360 S1: there that are not going to resonate because it doesn't 278 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,580 S1: have any, um, it doesn't have a place to live 279 00:13:42,580 --> 00:13:45,540 S1: within a particular culture. So you would have to know 280 00:13:45,540 --> 00:13:47,740 S1: the people and the way in which the language is 281 00:13:47,740 --> 00:13:50,060 S1: spoken on the street, which necessarily means you have to 282 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:52,179 S1: be more absorbed into the culture, it would seem to me. 283 00:13:54,220 --> 00:13:58,180 S7: Absolutely. And so we are we are trying both with 284 00:13:58,179 --> 00:14:01,500 S7: idioms in the language we're translating into. For someone to 285 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:04,900 S7: have a hard heart means they're brave. But also we 286 00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:08,740 S7: are trying to to find relevant ways to present the gospel. 287 00:14:08,780 --> 00:14:11,340 S7: You know, I think we can understand that even in 288 00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:14,460 S7: the US, there's there's things that worked maybe 20 or 289 00:14:14,460 --> 00:14:18,380 S7: 30 years ago that now are really not as relevant 290 00:14:18,380 --> 00:14:20,380 S7: because people have a different set of questions. 291 00:14:20,420 --> 00:14:23,300 S1: Yeah. Exactly. Right. And boy, in missions you'd have to 292 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:24,780 S1: play the game on the balls of your feet, if 293 00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:27,700 S1: I can use that phrase, which takes me to methodology. 294 00:14:27,980 --> 00:14:30,380 S1: So the paradigm once upon a time was you'd pack 295 00:14:30,420 --> 00:14:33,700 S1: up and you'd just live among a particular people group, 296 00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:36,020 S1: and you'd stay there until the Lord called you home, 297 00:14:36,020 --> 00:14:38,980 S1: or out of necessity, you had to come back. But 298 00:14:38,980 --> 00:14:41,710 S1: now when you talk about church planting, does that mean 299 00:14:41,710 --> 00:14:44,110 S1: that the methodology has changed? Because I'm hearing more and 300 00:14:44,110 --> 00:14:46,830 S1: more people who say, we want to train the nationals 301 00:14:46,830 --> 00:14:49,190 S1: and then the nationals, take the message from there. Talk 302 00:14:49,190 --> 00:14:50,070 S1: to me about this. 303 00:14:51,310 --> 00:14:54,350 S7: Yeah. So that I think is is absolutely the goal. 304 00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:58,310 S7: I will never be able to minister as successfully as 305 00:14:58,310 --> 00:15:04,270 S7: as nationals can. Um, nevertheless, you know, it took me 306 00:15:04,270 --> 00:15:06,270 S7: a long time to grow in my faith, and I'm 307 00:15:06,270 --> 00:15:09,150 S7: still growing. And God was patient for me. And so 308 00:15:09,310 --> 00:15:13,430 S7: it does take years often to raise up national believers. 309 00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:16,030 S7: If these are people who've never heard the gospel before, 310 00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:17,870 S7: just as it would take years in our in our 311 00:15:17,870 --> 00:15:20,470 S7: own culture for people to grow in their faith. And 312 00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:23,510 S7: I think we do see people who are, who are 313 00:15:23,710 --> 00:15:29,910 S7: sometimes shortcutting those relationships and um, and either appointing people 314 00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:34,030 S7: to authority or even worse, starting to distribute money a 315 00:15:34,030 --> 00:15:35,470 S7: long time before people are ready. 316 00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:39,720 S1: Yeah. Exactly. Right. So it raises an interesting question, and 317 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,160 S1: I want to get to your theology of suffering, because 318 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,200 S1: I think that's so tremendously important. And I'm glad that 319 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,800 S1: you clarified to whom you were writing with this book. 320 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,120 S1: So to the would be missionary that's listening to our 321 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,240 S1: conversation right now before we immerse ourselves into a conversation 322 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,600 S1: about suffering. And you're going to juxtapose this, and in 323 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,040 S1: the end, you're going to talk about this is really 324 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,200 S1: about joy. And we'll get to that in a minute. 325 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,760 S1: In a minute. But how did you concern yourself with 326 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,520 S1: the fact that this book might be a deterrent to 327 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,600 S1: someone who's on the precipice of making a decision to 328 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:08,359 S1: go forward? 329 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,480 S7: Yes. And, you know, uh, there are certain people I 330 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,080 S7: want it to be a deterrent for. We have definitely 331 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,040 S7: seen people come out, uh, to serve on the field 332 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,280 S7: where we are, who who weren't ready for it or 333 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,040 S7: who weren't, I guess, created in that way. And with 334 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,440 S7: those giftings. And I get that my my brother is 335 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,400 S7: a high school math teacher. He teaches remedial math. I 336 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,840 S7: could never do what he does. And so I think 337 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,370 S7: part part of what we want is we do see 338 00:16:39,370 --> 00:16:44,050 S7: a fair number of people who who, um, don't have 339 00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:47,250 S7: the grace, I guess, to to keep going in these situations. 340 00:16:47,250 --> 00:16:49,850 S7: But something in them feels that if they really love 341 00:16:49,850 --> 00:16:51,770 S7: Jesus enough, they would be doing it. 342 00:16:51,930 --> 00:16:54,970 S1: Mm. Well, what an answer. Matt Rhodes is with us. 343 00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:56,650 S1: He and his wife are part of a church planting 344 00:16:56,690 --> 00:16:59,850 S1: team in North Africa. Been there since 2011. But he 345 00:16:59,850 --> 00:17:02,610 S1: joins us today with a very thought provoking book called 346 00:17:02,610 --> 00:17:07,330 S1: Persecution in Missions A Practical Theology. So roll up your sleeves. 347 00:17:07,330 --> 00:17:08,970 S1: That's what we're going to talk about when we come back. 348 00:17:09,010 --> 00:17:12,410 S1: Do we need a better theology of suffering? Particularly if 349 00:17:12,410 --> 00:17:14,650 S1: God has called you onto the mission field. We'll talk 350 00:17:14,650 --> 00:17:16,850 S1: about that with Matt. In the meantime, I've got a 351 00:17:16,850 --> 00:17:18,970 S1: link to the book on my website in the market 352 00:17:18,970 --> 00:17:22,690 S1: with Janet Parshall. Click on the red box. It says 353 00:17:22,690 --> 00:17:25,689 S1: Program Details and Audio. It'll take you over to the 354 00:17:25,690 --> 00:17:28,369 S1: information page. There's a picture of Matt, a link to 355 00:17:28,369 --> 00:17:31,930 S1: some interesting articles from Crossway on missionaries and the book 356 00:17:31,930 --> 00:17:33,449 S1: on the right hand side, so you can click on 357 00:17:33,450 --> 00:17:49,270 S1: through to get your copy back after this. Persecution in 358 00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:52,389 S1: Missions A Practical Theology. It's the new book by Matt Rhodes, 359 00:17:52,510 --> 00:17:54,830 S1: who joins us from North Africa, where he and his 360 00:17:54,830 --> 00:17:57,830 S1: wife have been part of a church planting team since 2011. 361 00:17:58,030 --> 00:18:00,350 S1: And we're so grateful that he's with us. So I 362 00:18:00,350 --> 00:18:01,750 S1: want to point out some of the things that you 363 00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:04,070 S1: said in your book. Number one, you say that suffering 364 00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:07,149 S1: is not a problem for new believers in unreached area, 365 00:18:07,150 --> 00:18:11,189 S1: but it's also a significant obstacle for missionaries. Talk to 366 00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:11,950 S1: me about that. 367 00:18:14,270 --> 00:18:18,150 S7: Yeah, I think missionaries, uh, many of them will encounter 368 00:18:18,150 --> 00:18:22,710 S7: suffering at the at the very beginning of their calling. Um, because, well, 369 00:18:22,750 --> 00:18:25,430 S7: I've known a lot of people whose families were bitterly 370 00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:29,910 S7: opposed to it. Uh, but then there is, um, often 371 00:18:29,910 --> 00:18:33,190 S7: for often for missionaries, especially if you're from a powerful 372 00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:35,880 S7: country like the United States, you may not face the 373 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:41,520 S7: same risks of persecution directly and martyrdom, although you may, um, 374 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,640 S7: because that that does happen. But there, um, you can 375 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,080 S7: almost count on um, there will be the slow grind 376 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,080 S7: of language learning, the feelings of cultural, cultural disorientation, the 377 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,480 S7: time away from family, um, and, uh, depending on where 378 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,199 S7: you're serving, um, sickness, unrest, war. Um, so these are 379 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,359 S7: all things that we have have dealt with in one 380 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,800 S7: form or another and that we see people dealing with. 381 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,080 S1: Let me build on that a little bit. Um, it 382 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,840 S1: is not unusual for missionary kids to have to go 383 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,360 S1: off to boarding school. It is not unusual for disease 384 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,479 S1: to take place. And when you talk about that in 385 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,960 S1: your book, I'll get into that later as well. Um, 386 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,720 S1: it's about also getting acclimated to new diets and new cultures. Now, 387 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,760 S1: these aren't huge things on the suffering spectrum, but they're 388 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,000 S1: out there. In other words, you are about to leave 389 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,159 S1: a life of what you've known that one would presume 390 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,370 S1: had made you comfortable for something that is unknown for 391 00:19:35,369 --> 00:19:38,050 S1: the sole and single purpose of telling people about Jesus. 392 00:19:38,450 --> 00:19:40,889 S1: You better be pretty committed. How does one know that 393 00:19:40,890 --> 00:19:42,969 S1: they've really been called into missions? I asked you how 394 00:19:42,970 --> 00:19:44,890 S1: you got into missions initially, and for you it was 395 00:19:44,890 --> 00:19:47,690 S1: like breathing. For a lot of people, it isn't that easy. 396 00:19:47,730 --> 00:19:49,690 S1: How does one know before one says yes? 397 00:19:52,410 --> 00:19:55,770 S7: Some people don't know completely. And so I think that 398 00:19:55,770 --> 00:19:58,650 S7: is one of the great uses of short term missions, 399 00:19:58,890 --> 00:20:02,490 S7: is to to help people get some experience on the ground. 400 00:20:02,810 --> 00:20:05,370 S7: But ultimately, what you're looking for is to have a 401 00:20:05,369 --> 00:20:08,650 S7: realistic idea of the challenges ahead of you and to 402 00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:11,010 S7: know not that they're going to be easy, but as 403 00:20:11,010 --> 00:20:13,250 S7: in any life decision, if you're going to get married, 404 00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:15,650 S7: if you're going to stay single, you have to know 405 00:20:15,650 --> 00:20:17,650 S7: that you are willing to stick it out through those 406 00:20:18,090 --> 00:20:20,610 S7: challenges and that it's worth it. You can still see 407 00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:22,369 S7: God's goodness to you through them. 408 00:20:22,770 --> 00:20:26,610 S1: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. What this is you writing. What is 409 00:20:26,609 --> 00:20:28,729 S1: this theology of suffering and why do we need it? 410 00:20:28,770 --> 00:20:31,010 S1: It's a fabulous question. You write about it, you give 411 00:20:31,010 --> 00:20:33,340 S1: the answer in the book, but I want our friends 412 00:20:33,340 --> 00:20:35,780 S1: listening to understand what you mean when you talk about 413 00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:38,300 S1: a theology of suffering. It's not a class. A lot 414 00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:39,419 S1: of people want to sign up for. 415 00:20:40,460 --> 00:20:43,020 S7: All right? No, it's not at all. And there's good 416 00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:46,460 S7: reasons for that. But we need to know what Suffering's 417 00:20:46,460 --> 00:20:50,140 S7: role is in, in our Christian lives and what its 418 00:20:50,140 --> 00:20:53,020 S7: role is in the world around us. We need to 419 00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:55,780 S7: know what God's purposes are in it and as well 420 00:20:56,140 --> 00:20:59,580 S7: what what Satan's purposes are in it. And it's important 421 00:20:59,580 --> 00:21:04,020 S7: because if we don't have mature and grounded views about that, 422 00:21:04,380 --> 00:21:07,580 S7: suffering is going to hit us, all of us. And 423 00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:09,939 S7: that doesn't matter where we are in the world and 424 00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:13,780 S7: we can collapse. We can not take it seriously enough. 425 00:21:13,820 --> 00:21:16,260 S7: And and then when it hits us hard, that can 426 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:18,780 S7: be something that we weren't ready for. We can romanticize 427 00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:21,340 S7: it and and embrace more of it than we should have. 428 00:21:22,140 --> 00:21:25,139 S1: Wow. Were you prepared, do you think, before God called you? 429 00:21:27,780 --> 00:21:31,920 S7: No, I, I think I had as much preparation as 430 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,640 S7: I could. I think there is a sense that going 431 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,440 S7: long term overseas is, you know, it's a little bit 432 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,760 S7: like getting married or raising kids. Um, there's, there's some 433 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,480 S7: preparation that can only happen when you're on the ground. 434 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,480 S1: That's right. In other words, you can't take the class 435 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,400 S1: ahead of time. You really have to walk through this. 436 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,760 S1: You talked about suffering, and you said one of the 437 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,000 S1: things you point out in the book is that, um, 438 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,879 S1: it helps us to understand God's broader purposes for suffering. 439 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,600 S1: That raises an interesting theological question, Matt. Is God obligated 440 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,360 S1: to give us a reason for why we suffer? 441 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,560 S7: No. And I think that's something that that we search 442 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,040 S7: for often. We want, you know, if a relationship ends, 443 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,160 S7: you want to meet a better person or, um, if 444 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,399 S7: you lose a lot of money somewhere, you want to 445 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,320 S7: see something you learn from it or a better financial opportunity. 446 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,600 S7: But in the end, you know, job just doesn't get 447 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,040 S7: an answer. Well, or the answer he gets is basically 448 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,040 S7: God saying, you're too small and and you don't know 449 00:22:29,130 --> 00:22:32,010 S7: all these things I know. I can't explain it to you. 450 00:22:32,690 --> 00:22:36,290 S1: Yeah, exactly. I say that only because I think so often. 451 00:22:36,290 --> 00:22:39,290 S1: And again, even though you're from San Diego, you've been 452 00:22:39,290 --> 00:22:41,369 S1: in North Africa now for a long period of time. 453 00:22:41,369 --> 00:22:43,850 S1: So I keep referring to perspectives I see here in 454 00:22:43,850 --> 00:22:46,609 S1: the West that are not always replicated by our brothers 455 00:22:46,609 --> 00:22:48,889 S1: and sisters who are serving in countries where they are 456 00:22:48,930 --> 00:22:52,450 S1: suffering in missions. And that is I think we somehow think, 457 00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:55,010 S1: and this goes to the bigger question, and we need 458 00:22:55,010 --> 00:22:57,889 S1: a richer understanding of God and a deeper understanding of 459 00:22:57,890 --> 00:23:00,170 S1: the Bible. But I think what happens is we get 460 00:23:00,170 --> 00:23:02,890 S1: the idea that God somehow owes us an explanation. I'm 461 00:23:02,890 --> 00:23:04,770 S1: so glad that you referenced job. A lot of people 462 00:23:04,770 --> 00:23:06,730 S1: will sidestep the book simply because there is so much 463 00:23:06,730 --> 00:23:09,050 S1: about suffering in there. But the bottom line is, is 464 00:23:09,050 --> 00:23:12,410 S1: he doesn't owe us an explanation when it happens. What 465 00:23:12,410 --> 00:23:14,250 S1: does that say about the nature of God? Is it? 466 00:23:14,250 --> 00:23:16,330 S1: This is one of the reasons why he doesn't have 467 00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:18,250 S1: to tell us, so that we learn to trust him, 468 00:23:18,250 --> 00:23:19,730 S1: even if we can't understand it. 469 00:23:23,770 --> 00:23:27,129 S7: I think absolutely. You know, my so my wife and I, 470 00:23:27,130 --> 00:23:28,899 S7: we have two three year olds and one of my 471 00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:30,979 S7: three year olds. A couple of weeks ago, he wanted 472 00:23:30,980 --> 00:23:35,260 S7: to drink detergent and he asked me why not? And 473 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:40,580 S7: it was why? And that's not a question that I 474 00:23:40,619 --> 00:23:42,780 S7: can answer to him in a way that he is 475 00:23:42,780 --> 00:23:45,340 S7: able to understand it. And so I told him, because 476 00:23:45,340 --> 00:23:48,380 S7: I said so. And it's it's not that I don't 477 00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:50,700 S7: respect his intelligence or that I'm trying to be mean 478 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:54,139 S7: and an autocrat, it's that he doesn't get the things 479 00:23:54,140 --> 00:23:56,620 S7: I know, and I don't owe him an explanation. He 480 00:23:56,619 --> 00:23:59,220 S7: needs to trust me, and he and he knows me 481 00:23:59,220 --> 00:24:01,379 S7: well enough to do that. And that's I think the 482 00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:03,820 S7: thing for us with God is that we have reason 483 00:24:03,820 --> 00:24:04,580 S7: to trust him. 484 00:24:04,859 --> 00:24:07,700 S1: Yeah, what a super answer. Matt Rhodes is with us. 485 00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:10,379 S1: Is the author of the book Persecution in Missions A 486 00:24:10,380 --> 00:24:13,660 S1: Practical Theology. Again, this is a man who, along with 487 00:24:13,660 --> 00:24:17,060 S1: his wife, went to North Africa. They've been there since 2011. 488 00:24:17,060 --> 00:24:19,660 S1: They're part of a church planting team, and now they're 489 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:23,020 S1: ministering to a previously unengaged people group. There's so much more. 490 00:24:23,020 --> 00:24:25,340 S1: I'm going to dig deeper into this theology of suffering. 491 00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:27,800 S1: We all could use a tutorial here back after this. 492 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,720 S1: How often do you tune into in the market? Once 493 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,040 S1: or twice a week. Every day. If this program is 494 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,520 S1: valuable to you, why not become a partial partner? Your 495 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,399 S1: financial support is invaluable as we apply God's Word to 496 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,199 S1: current events in modern culture. Knowing we can count on 497 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,239 S1: your monthly gift encourages us to deliver relevant and up 498 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,280 S1: to date content every day. Become a partial partner today 499 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,000 S1: by calling 877 Janet, 58, or go online to In 500 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:26,730 S1: the market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Matt Rhodes, 501 00:25:26,730 --> 00:25:29,650 S1: who grew up in San Diego, California. His parents led 502 00:25:29,650 --> 00:25:32,130 S1: him to the Lord when he was small, and he 503 00:25:32,130 --> 00:25:35,090 S1: just kept following the Lord right into North Africa, where 504 00:25:35,090 --> 00:25:37,690 S1: he's been since 2011. He and his wife there are 505 00:25:37,690 --> 00:25:41,050 S1: part of a church planting team to a previously unengaged 506 00:25:41,050 --> 00:25:43,530 S1: people group. He joins us live from a country I 507 00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:46,090 S1: will not name for his safety, and it is very 508 00:25:46,090 --> 00:25:49,650 S1: late where he is, and we so tremendously appreciate his 509 00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:52,570 S1: willingness to stay up and to offer this conversation in 510 00:25:52,570 --> 00:25:55,850 S1: a live format. He's written the book Persecution in Missions 511 00:25:55,850 --> 00:25:58,930 S1: A Practical Theology. So in the book, after you spend 512 00:25:58,930 --> 00:26:01,570 S1: time defining what missions is, and I'm so glad that 513 00:26:01,570 --> 00:26:04,330 S1: you did, you get into the bigger, the deeper question here, 514 00:26:04,530 --> 00:26:07,530 S1: talking about our need to develop those on the mission 515 00:26:07,530 --> 00:26:10,650 S1: field need to develop a deeper theology of suffering. And 516 00:26:10,650 --> 00:26:12,770 S1: it really goes to the core question, how could a 517 00:26:12,770 --> 00:26:15,810 S1: good God allow suffering in this world? And then right 518 00:26:15,810 --> 00:26:17,970 S1: after that you write something very interesting, Matt. You say 519 00:26:17,970 --> 00:26:21,810 S1: that really the New Testament writer seemed mostly uninterested in 520 00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:24,860 S1: answering that. So there are two questions there that are fascinating. 521 00:26:24,859 --> 00:26:27,020 S1: I want to go. The overarching question is how could 522 00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:29,380 S1: God allow suffering? But I'm more intrigued by the fact 523 00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:32,659 S1: that the New Testament writer seemed rather uninterested. Why was that? 524 00:26:34,780 --> 00:26:38,020 S7: Yeah, I think they they were more interested, really, in 525 00:26:38,020 --> 00:26:41,139 S7: what God was suffering in the world. And so they 526 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:44,300 S7: they talk an awful lot about that. I think, too, 527 00:26:44,940 --> 00:26:46,340 S7: you know, and this kind of goes back to the 528 00:26:46,340 --> 00:26:49,060 S7: conversation I had with my, my three year old when he, 529 00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:52,740 S7: when he wanted to drink detergent. And I said, no, um, 530 00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:56,139 S7: why when he asks it with, with that kind of 531 00:26:56,180 --> 00:27:00,139 S7: accusing voice, you know, why is it's how could a 532 00:27:00,140 --> 00:27:04,220 S7: good dad not let me drink that really yummy looking stuff? 533 00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:09,580 S7: And so, so there's an inherent accusation in the question and, 534 00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:13,900 S7: and it's sort of an innocent until proven guilty situation. 535 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:15,780 S7: And I think they don't want to do that to God. 536 00:27:15,820 --> 00:27:18,660 S7: They know that God has is much wiser than them. 537 00:27:18,660 --> 00:27:21,620 S7: He may have great reasons for allowing suffering. So they're 538 00:27:21,619 --> 00:27:23,350 S7: more concerned with, is he going to get us out 539 00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:23,710 S7: of it? 540 00:27:24,030 --> 00:27:28,590 S1: Mhm. Should that be our approach. Should missionaries have that approach. 541 00:27:31,030 --> 00:27:33,870 S7: I think I think Christians in general would do well 542 00:27:33,910 --> 00:27:38,110 S7: to have that approach. Um, you know there's, we work in, 543 00:27:38,109 --> 00:27:40,109 S7: in the Muslim world. And so there are, there are 544 00:27:40,109 --> 00:27:43,750 S7: some things about the Muslim approach that I think to suffering, 545 00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:46,190 S7: I think are unhealthy. Uh, but one thing that is 546 00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:49,590 S7: healthy is that, uh, I think people don't spend a 547 00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:51,830 S7: lot of time questioning God with it. 548 00:27:52,790 --> 00:27:54,830 S1: Mm. Why do you think that is? 549 00:27:56,990 --> 00:28:01,149 S7: Um, you know, ultimately, I, I think it springs from 550 00:28:01,150 --> 00:28:07,350 S7: something that that is unhelpful. Um, I think in, in, 551 00:28:07,390 --> 00:28:13,190 S7: in our Christian tradition, uh, we may not understand God's answers, 552 00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:15,750 S7: but we at least understand goodness enough that we can 553 00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:18,590 S7: have a conversation. So. So Abraham can say to God, 554 00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:21,369 S7: you know, want the judge of all the earth deal justly. 555 00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:26,250 S7: And in in Islam generally, I think God is he's 556 00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:28,530 S7: just sort of too high and too distant that we 557 00:28:28,570 --> 00:28:31,649 S7: couldn't really have the conversation with him at all. Um, 558 00:28:32,050 --> 00:28:35,409 S7: but what it does, I think, is it does breed 559 00:28:35,410 --> 00:28:39,209 S7: sort of, um, an ability to accept things that, that 560 00:28:39,210 --> 00:28:42,050 S7: we don't like. And I think to that extent it 561 00:28:42,050 --> 00:28:42,730 S7: is healthy. 562 00:28:43,090 --> 00:28:46,650 S1: Um, so you talk in the book about the, uh, 563 00:28:46,650 --> 00:28:49,730 S1: origination of evil. Now, you would think that this was 564 00:28:49,730 --> 00:28:53,050 S1: Sunday School 101, right? We are east of Eden. You know, 565 00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:55,330 S1: sin comes into the world. Then by man came death. 566 00:28:55,530 --> 00:28:57,650 S1: And because we live in a sin sick, fallen world, 567 00:28:57,650 --> 00:29:00,610 S1: an upside down world, if you will, suffering is going 568 00:29:00,610 --> 00:29:02,570 S1: to be a part of that fall. So that would 569 00:29:02,570 --> 00:29:05,370 S1: be part of the condition. But it really I think 570 00:29:05,370 --> 00:29:08,250 S1: it goes deeper than that. So how did evil come 571 00:29:08,250 --> 00:29:10,810 S1: into the world? Was it simply because of sin and 572 00:29:10,810 --> 00:29:13,330 S1: a sin, a companion of suffering? And would there be 573 00:29:13,330 --> 00:29:14,930 S1: suffering if there was no sin? 574 00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:20,420 S7: So absolutely suffering comes into the world through sin and. 575 00:29:20,460 --> 00:29:23,580 S7: But what really surprised me, I think, as I was 576 00:29:23,580 --> 00:29:26,940 S7: looking at this in the scriptures, is that suffering isn't 577 00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:30,260 S7: just a consequence for our sin, it is that. But 578 00:29:30,260 --> 00:29:33,780 S7: there's also a darker agenda. Behind it is that we 579 00:29:33,780 --> 00:29:38,780 S7: see in Scripture that Satan is continually, repeatedly identified as 580 00:29:38,780 --> 00:29:41,260 S7: a source of suffering. And, you know, he's the one 581 00:29:41,260 --> 00:29:43,540 S7: who brings sin into the world in the first place. 582 00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:47,860 S7: And so he does this with an agenda. He he 583 00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:49,420 S7: wants it to tank our faith. 584 00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:54,100 S1: And oftentimes that is the reason that it either does 585 00:29:54,140 --> 00:29:56,780 S1: tank a faith or it keeps people from the cross 586 00:29:56,780 --> 00:29:59,100 S1: in the first place. I've had many people here in Washington, 587 00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:03,140 S1: DC say that they could never accept Christianity, because why 588 00:30:03,140 --> 00:30:05,860 S1: would a good God allow fill in the blank, you know, 589 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:08,500 S1: let a three year old die of leukemia if he 590 00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:10,380 S1: can't be a good God, if he allows something like 591 00:30:10,380 --> 00:30:12,700 S1: that to happen, let me leave that question hanging in 592 00:30:12,740 --> 00:30:14,540 S1: the transcendent there for a minute, and I'll come back 593 00:30:14,540 --> 00:30:18,470 S1: in a second. So suffering is there. You mentioned Brother 594 00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:20,110 S1: Jobe a minute ago. Let me go back to that. 595 00:30:20,110 --> 00:30:23,510 S1: I've always found it absolutely stunning that a Satan has 596 00:30:23,550 --> 00:30:25,870 S1: access to God, and he comes not once, but twice 597 00:30:25,870 --> 00:30:28,510 S1: to go after Jobe again. As you pointed out, there 598 00:30:28,510 --> 00:30:30,830 S1: isn't even an explanation given at the end of the book. 599 00:30:30,830 --> 00:30:33,110 S1: This is why I did it. But there is that 600 00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:36,270 S1: moment and I have mortals mind, which means it's his 601 00:30:36,270 --> 00:30:38,910 S1: thoughts are not my thoughts and his ways are far 602 00:30:38,910 --> 00:30:41,190 S1: above mine. But why do you think it is that 603 00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:43,870 S1: God allows and in this case it's job? But it 604 00:30:43,870 --> 00:30:46,070 S1: speaks to the bigger question of suffering. Why did God 605 00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:49,510 S1: allow job not once but twice to go through this 606 00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:50,790 S1: winnowing that Satan did? 607 00:30:52,030 --> 00:30:57,190 S7: Mhm. Yeah, I think that I think that God has 608 00:30:57,190 --> 00:31:01,230 S7: things that he wants to show us about himself. Um, 609 00:31:01,310 --> 00:31:03,790 S7: so I think there's definitely some lessons that Jobe has learned. 610 00:31:03,790 --> 00:31:06,550 S7: But if we look at job's case specifically, you know, 611 00:31:06,550 --> 00:31:08,630 S7: we as a church have been blessed in God's people 612 00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:11,870 S7: through the ages, have been blessed through this. And there 613 00:31:11,870 --> 00:31:14,110 S7: was something he wanted to show that he was bigger 614 00:31:14,110 --> 00:31:17,480 S7: than what Satan was doing and what Satan was doing 615 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,200 S7: was ultimately a lie, right? It it is that question 616 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,280 S7: of how, you know, how could a good God let 617 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,560 S7: a three year old die of leukemia? And that's exactly 618 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,360 S7: what Satan is saying to God. If you touch his body, 619 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,360 S7: he will curse you to your face. He won't believe 620 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,760 S7: you're good anymore. And so God is trying to demonstrate 621 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,440 S7: both to job but to his people more largely that 622 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,520 S7: he is good in the midst of our suffering. 623 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,560 S1: Yeah. Um, you talk about suffering and persecution as normative 624 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,400 S1: experiences in the Christian life. I'm so glad that you 625 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,120 S1: wrote on this, because, again, in the West, um, sometimes 626 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,960 S1: I think at our own peril, we fail to see 627 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,680 S1: it as normative, not Book of James, not if, but 628 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,240 S1: when those fiery trials come. So we're always caught off guard. 629 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,440 S1: Why is that? Are we just biblically illiterate? Do we 630 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,040 S1: not understand the character of God? 631 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,040 S7: I think it might be more well, it could be 632 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,080 S7: some of that. And I think also we don't understand 633 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,680 S7: the character of man. I think that it's easy for 634 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,260 S7: us to fall into thinking that we are such an 635 00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:24,500 S7: educated society, such a forward thinking and mature society, that 636 00:32:24,540 --> 00:32:27,860 S7: people who don't believe in Jesus are basically good people, 637 00:32:27,860 --> 00:32:29,300 S7: and they're not going to cause us a lot of 638 00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:34,460 S7: problems and and to forget that we all, um, you know, 639 00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:36,860 S7: came into this world full of sin and we all 640 00:32:36,860 --> 00:32:40,180 S7: embraced it and that. Yeah, a lot of people aren't 641 00:32:40,180 --> 00:32:43,500 S7: looking for a way to hurt us. Um, but but 642 00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:47,020 S7: a lot of people also, if they if the chance 643 00:32:47,020 --> 00:32:49,460 S7: is right, if the payoff is right, they can do 644 00:32:49,460 --> 00:32:51,500 S7: things that they don't normally imagine they could. 645 00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:55,340 S1: You know, one of the verses I've memorized this year 646 00:32:55,340 --> 00:32:57,580 S1: is it's good for me that I have been afflicted 647 00:32:57,580 --> 00:33:01,219 S1: because I have learned your statutes. It really begs the question, 648 00:33:01,220 --> 00:33:03,980 S1: does it not, about whether or not suffering has any 649 00:33:03,980 --> 00:33:05,980 S1: advantage in our life? You write a lot about what 650 00:33:06,020 --> 00:33:07,460 S1: Satan wants to do, and let me linger there for 651 00:33:07,460 --> 00:33:09,420 S1: a minute. Then I'm going to talk about God. So 652 00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:12,380 S1: when suffering and persecution come, it makes common sense, does 653 00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:15,550 S1: it not, that the enemy, the liar. Um. The prince 654 00:33:15,550 --> 00:33:18,950 S1: of this air would come along and bring suffering. Because 655 00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:21,870 S1: it's a faith tester. I can make you lose your 656 00:33:21,870 --> 00:33:25,469 S1: faith if I fill in the blank. So do we 657 00:33:25,470 --> 00:33:28,710 S1: need to recognize that suffering also has a spiritual warfare 658 00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:29,550 S1: aspect to it? 659 00:33:31,030 --> 00:33:34,870 S7: Absolutely. And I think that's I think that's even sharper 660 00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:37,510 S7: in the case of persecution. You know, going through the 661 00:33:37,510 --> 00:33:40,910 S7: New Testament, you see you see this again and again 662 00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:45,030 S7: in revelation two. Um, it's it's not Rome has thrown 663 00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:48,110 S7: some of you in prison. It's Satan has thrown some 664 00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:51,630 S7: of you in prison. Uh, it's not, um, you know, 665 00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:55,710 S7: the the angry mob hindered me from coming back to 666 00:33:55,710 --> 00:33:59,470 S7: you in Thessalonica. It's. Satan hindered us. And so that's 667 00:33:59,470 --> 00:34:03,510 S7: a theme. And I think the sort of lie of is, 668 00:34:03,950 --> 00:34:06,150 S7: you know, how could a good God let this happen 669 00:34:06,150 --> 00:34:10,270 S7: to you? It's especially potent when the thing that's happening 670 00:34:10,270 --> 00:34:12,799 S7: is happening to us because of our faith. because I 671 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,400 S7: came to Jesus to be saved, right? And because I 672 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,640 S7: thought he could deliver me. So if he gets me 673 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,839 S7: in more trouble than I was in before, I might 674 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,400 S7: start thinking that I need to rethink this whole deal. 675 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,280 S1: Absolutely. And yet again, and I made the statement earlier. 676 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,160 S1: I'll repeat it because I so believe it, and I 677 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,719 S1: sense it. Sitting in front of this microphone for lo, 678 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,960 S1: these many years is that we do not have a 679 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,000 S1: high enough view of God or a deeper understanding of 680 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,080 S1: His Word. Why in the world would we be invited? 681 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,680 S1: Now there's an interesting word invited to join in the 682 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,160 S1: fellowship of his suffering again, mortal to mortal relationship. We'd 683 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,560 S1: never say, hey, boy, I want you to have the 684 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,680 S1: pain I'm having. It'll be good for you. So how 685 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,080 S1: are we invited to join him in the fellowship of 686 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,840 S1: his suffering? And what does he mean by that? 687 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,840 S7: Yeah, and I think this is something that we often 688 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,960 S7: don't see. Uh, maybe especially as Americans, I often when 689 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,399 S7: we ask, why is God letting me suffer? It's sort of, 690 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,759 S7: you know, what can I get out of it? How 691 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,440 S7: can I grow as a person? Um, but there's a 692 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,649 S7: real sense to that. We are called to suffer for 693 00:35:11,650 --> 00:35:15,170 S7: the sake of our brothers and sisters in a in 694 00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:17,690 S7: a way similar to how Jesus suffered for them. And 695 00:35:17,690 --> 00:35:20,770 S7: so it's partly in our suffering that they that they 696 00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:24,610 S7: gain the courage as well, uh, to, to confront suffering 697 00:35:24,610 --> 00:35:26,969 S7: in their own lives, which is a part of this 698 00:35:26,969 --> 00:35:28,170 S7: fallen world that we're in. 699 00:35:28,730 --> 00:35:32,089 S1: So, in other words, how we endure becomes a role 700 00:35:32,090 --> 00:35:34,890 S1: model if we do this successfully for other brothers and sisters. 701 00:35:34,890 --> 00:35:38,050 S1: In other words, they, by observing us, can mature as well. 702 00:35:39,570 --> 00:35:42,290 S7: Absolutely. Because I you know, I think this is something 703 00:35:42,290 --> 00:35:45,890 S7: that we all face, um, we all in our lives 704 00:35:45,890 --> 00:35:48,930 S7: are nearly all of us will face suffering at some 705 00:35:48,930 --> 00:35:52,490 S7: point that makes us doubt God's goodness. It's a fundamental 706 00:35:52,690 --> 00:35:56,010 S7: part of our Christian walk. And so Paul, he says 707 00:35:56,010 --> 00:36:01,410 S7: in Second Corinthians four, he talks about being, um, you know, uh, 708 00:36:02,610 --> 00:36:07,890 S7: about being persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed. 709 00:36:07,930 --> 00:36:10,430 S7: And he says, and all this is for your sake, 710 00:36:10,469 --> 00:36:12,430 S7: he says, so that the life of Christ may be 711 00:36:12,430 --> 00:36:16,870 S7: manifested in our body, and so that Jesus's life and 712 00:36:16,989 --> 00:36:20,509 S7: his resurrection power is revealed in our in our sufferings. 713 00:36:20,989 --> 00:36:23,910 S1: Mm. Matt Rhodes is with us. He's written a phenomenal 714 00:36:23,910 --> 00:36:27,709 S1: book called Persecution in Missions A Practical Theology. He joins 715 00:36:27,710 --> 00:36:30,710 S1: us from North Africa, where he's been since 2011, where 716 00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:32,430 S1: he and his wife are part of a church planting 717 00:36:32,469 --> 00:36:34,589 S1: team there. We're going to continue on this, by the way, 718 00:36:34,590 --> 00:36:36,509 S1: there's so much more in the book that even the 719 00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:39,150 S1: gift of one hour of Matt's time affords us. So 720 00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:42,310 S1: if we've piqued your thinking about this because we all 721 00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:45,390 S1: will suffer, nobody gets a pass on this. How do 722 00:36:45,390 --> 00:36:48,710 S1: we understand the deeper theology of suffering back after this? 723 00:36:59,710 --> 00:37:02,989 S1: Persecution in missions A Practical Theology. It is the book 724 00:37:02,989 --> 00:37:05,790 S1: that Matt Rhodes has written. Matt came to the Lord 725 00:37:05,790 --> 00:37:07,790 S1: when he was a young child. He is now serving 726 00:37:07,790 --> 00:37:10,440 S1: in North Africa. Been there since 2011. He and his 727 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,799 S1: wife are part of a church planting team to a 728 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,360 S1: previously unengaged people group. So many questions I want to 729 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:16,920 S1: ask you, and I've only got one more segment to 730 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,120 S1: ask you. Far too many questions, so let me just 731 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,880 S1: do some big picture questions. How does one endure suffering? Well, 732 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,080 S1: because I think of Brother Paul, and I particularly am 733 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,839 S1: impacted when he's writing to the church at Philippi, and 734 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,600 S1: he makes this declaration and this first visit to Rome. 735 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,319 S1: This is not the time he'll lose his head. That's 736 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,200 S1: the next round when he's back in Rome. But he says, 737 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,920 S1: I've learned in whatsoever state I'm in to be content. 738 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,680 S1: First of all, I so appreciate the fact that Paul 739 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,799 S1: is telling me this didn't happen. Naturally. He wasn't a 740 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,480 S1: superhero where he suddenly had the ability to have contentment 741 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,439 S1: regardless of his circumstances. He had to learn it. I 742 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,040 S1: take great comfort in knowing that there's muscle memory that 743 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,279 S1: has to be built here. So how do I endure 744 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,120 S1: in suffering? 745 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,680 S7: Yeah, I think one of the things that you see 746 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,919 S7: in Paul, too, in Philippians is that in the first 747 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,330 S7: chapter he's he's telling them that for me to live 748 00:38:07,330 --> 00:38:10,810 S7: is Christ, and to die is gain. And so I 749 00:38:10,850 --> 00:38:13,490 S7: think that's where a lot of his muscle memory is, 750 00:38:13,530 --> 00:38:16,770 S7: is that he knows that ultimately there is a reward 751 00:38:16,770 --> 00:38:20,609 S7: for this. And, you know, you can you can bear 752 00:38:20,610 --> 00:38:22,810 S7: a lot of things for for a limited amount of 753 00:38:22,810 --> 00:38:24,330 S7: time if there's a great reward. 754 00:38:24,969 --> 00:38:28,049 S1: Yeah. Well, so that's another point that you made in 755 00:38:28,050 --> 00:38:30,569 S1: the book. And it really hearkens back to Paul. How 756 00:38:30,570 --> 00:38:32,529 S1: do you take this idea of suffering and flip it 757 00:38:32,530 --> 00:38:35,130 S1: around so that it becomes an issue of joy, not pain? 758 00:38:37,450 --> 00:38:40,290 S7: Yeah, I think the the New Testament kind of builds 759 00:38:40,290 --> 00:38:43,569 S7: on this Exodus imagery from the Old Testament. Right? We 760 00:38:43,570 --> 00:38:45,770 S7: were slaves of sin, and God is leading us out 761 00:38:45,770 --> 00:38:50,009 S7: of slavery. And even with suffering specifically, you know, it 762 00:38:50,010 --> 00:38:53,129 S7: talks about the devil. Um, he uses the fear of 763 00:38:53,130 --> 00:38:55,969 S7: death to enslave us. And that's written to the the 764 00:38:56,010 --> 00:39:00,129 S7: suffering people. Uh, the suffering first readers of Hebrews who 765 00:39:00,130 --> 00:39:04,170 S7: are being persecuted. And so there's a sense where we've 766 00:39:04,210 --> 00:39:07,700 S7: given this world that we had dominion of. We've given 767 00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:10,100 S7: parts of our control of it to the devil, and 768 00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:12,339 S7: there is a suffering, but he is leading us out 769 00:39:12,340 --> 00:39:15,419 S7: of it, and there is suffering that we will encounter 770 00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:18,340 S7: on the way. But we are going to a promised land, 771 00:39:18,540 --> 00:39:21,379 S7: and if we can keep our eyes there and and 772 00:39:21,380 --> 00:39:23,540 S7: not forget that, then we won't turn back. 773 00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:27,380 S1: You write in the book that it's imperative that we 774 00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:30,620 S1: teach people, in particular missionaries, all of us, but particularly 775 00:39:30,620 --> 00:39:33,660 S1: in missionaries. Germane to your book, How to Face Persecution. 776 00:39:33,660 --> 00:39:34,940 S1: How does one do that? 777 00:39:37,180 --> 00:39:39,700 S7: I think part of it is that we have to 778 00:39:39,739 --> 00:39:43,779 S7: realize that, that we're very weak. And so when it 779 00:39:43,780 --> 00:39:47,020 S7: really hits us, it will take us out for a while. 780 00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:50,100 S7: And we have to we're going to have to go 781 00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:53,219 S7: to God to complain to him, but to to always 782 00:39:53,540 --> 00:39:57,900 S7: be calm, not grumbling against him, you know, complaining to him, Lord, 783 00:39:57,940 --> 00:40:01,820 S7: I can't take this. I need help. And and I 784 00:40:01,860 --> 00:40:05,200 S7: think that's part of the problem in some of the 785 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,399 S7: that we face and some of the more difficult parts 786 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,759 S7: of my life, I've, it's been easy for me to 787 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,879 S7: start feeling like, yes, God is good, but, you know, 788 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,160 S7: is he really good to me in my own practical 789 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,719 S7: circumstances and my own practical life? And and I think 790 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,080 S7: that a lot of the muscle memory, too, that you're 791 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,480 S7: talking about is remembering we serve a living God, you know, 792 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,880 S7: and he may take time to do things right. Abraham 793 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,000 S7: had to wait years for Isaac. Joseph spends years in prison. 794 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,680 S7: David spends years running from Saul. But he will act. 795 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,719 S1: Hmm. Well, when you're on the mission field and I 796 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,800 S1: want to get personal on this, Matt, how do you 797 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,520 S1: deal with the fact that you've. And Brother Paul's just 798 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,080 S1: going to show up a lot? In this conversation, he 799 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,120 S1: talks about forgetting what lies behind, but pressing on, particularly 800 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,360 S1: as a missionary, that looking forward seems to be imperative 801 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,160 S1: because it would seem to me vulnerable territory for the 802 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,640 S1: enemy to say to someone who's on the mission field, 803 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,480 S1: if you hadn't done this, you'd have a car, you'd 804 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,839 S1: have the house, you'd have a retirement fund, you'd have 805 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,200 S1: health insurance. You sure you still want to be able 806 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,730 S1: to do this. How do you encourage other missionaries to 807 00:41:05,730 --> 00:41:08,850 S1: understand that your wealth is not necessarily going to be 808 00:41:08,890 --> 00:41:10,969 S1: whenever the currency is of the country you serve in, 809 00:41:10,969 --> 00:41:13,490 S1: but your wealth is being stored up in heaven? 810 00:41:15,130 --> 00:41:18,610 S7: Yeah, I, I think where I go and where I 811 00:41:18,610 --> 00:41:21,690 S7: try to encourage people to go is that, you know, 812 00:41:21,969 --> 00:41:25,010 S7: we are we are saving up for the golden years, 813 00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:27,610 S7: and the golden years really are not going to be, 814 00:41:27,650 --> 00:41:29,850 S7: you know, the 20 or so years that I spend 815 00:41:29,850 --> 00:41:32,890 S7: retired if I can retire. Um, the golden years are 816 00:41:32,890 --> 00:41:34,930 S7: a lot longer than that, and they're going to be 817 00:41:34,930 --> 00:41:38,010 S7: a lot better. And so 100 million years from now, 818 00:41:38,450 --> 00:41:41,250 S7: none of these things that are bothering you and I 819 00:41:41,290 --> 00:41:44,690 S7: today are going to seem like anything more than a blip. 820 00:41:44,930 --> 00:41:47,489 S7: And and that's what I, what I want to be 821 00:41:47,489 --> 00:41:49,649 S7: thinking of and what we need to teach ourselves to 822 00:41:49,690 --> 00:41:50,210 S7: think of. 823 00:41:50,690 --> 00:41:52,770 S1: Yeah. You know, one of the things I learned and 824 00:41:52,770 --> 00:41:54,930 S1: I had never thought about this, the focus was so 825 00:41:54,930 --> 00:41:57,089 S1: the people group that you were called to minister to, 826 00:41:57,130 --> 00:42:00,250 S1: that you failed to realize that, um, not unlike a marriage, 827 00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:02,660 S1: you put two missionaries under the same canopy with the 828 00:42:02,660 --> 00:42:04,940 S1: same mission, and then you say, live happily ever after. 829 00:42:04,940 --> 00:42:08,420 S1: Sometimes the biggest challenges in missions is the people that 830 00:42:08,420 --> 00:42:10,740 S1: you're co serving with. How do you handle that? 831 00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:16,739 S7: It takes a lot of grace and a lot of communication. 832 00:42:17,060 --> 00:42:19,060 S7: So it is it is a little bit like being 833 00:42:19,060 --> 00:42:23,100 S7: married in that so many parts of your life are interdependent. 834 00:42:23,380 --> 00:42:25,299 S7: But it's not like being married because you didn't fall 835 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:29,580 S7: in love with that person. And so I, I think we, 836 00:42:29,620 --> 00:42:32,060 S7: we kind of go into this, um, trying to be 837 00:42:32,060 --> 00:42:36,300 S7: realistic and, and then we, we learn about each other and, 838 00:42:36,580 --> 00:42:39,460 S7: you know, the, the wonderful thing about missionary life is 839 00:42:39,460 --> 00:42:41,299 S7: that if you do stay for those years and you 840 00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:43,980 S7: work through those difficulties, you can have some of the 841 00:42:43,980 --> 00:42:48,260 S7: deepest and longest lasting friendships that you'll ever experience. 842 00:42:48,340 --> 00:42:51,700 S1: Wow. So in all of your time being on the 843 00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:54,540 S1: mission field, whether it was North Africa or not, because 844 00:42:54,540 --> 00:42:56,339 S1: you've been there for a long time, what was the 845 00:42:56,340 --> 00:42:59,820 S1: biggest challenge you faced in terms of suffering or persecution? 846 00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:05,310 S7: So let me answer that in two ways. For myself, 847 00:43:05,469 --> 00:43:08,910 S7: the biggest challenge in terms of difficulty was that I 848 00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:12,590 S7: was single for nine years on a remote field and 849 00:43:13,230 --> 00:43:16,910 S7: just felt very lonely. Um, that was before, you know, 850 00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:19,069 S7: before I met my wife. And we still do feel 851 00:43:19,070 --> 00:43:22,110 S7: lonely sometimes because we are in a remote field. But 852 00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:25,670 S7: we have we have, um, three year olds, as I mentioned, 853 00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:27,910 S7: so we don't even have time to fill them. Sometimes. 854 00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:34,350 S7: Sometimes we'd like more of that. However, on a larger level, uh, 855 00:43:34,830 --> 00:43:38,470 S7: a persecution has impacted our ministry in that the people 856 00:43:38,469 --> 00:43:40,750 S7: that we are ministering to, they have a lot to 857 00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:44,910 S7: lose that I may not. Um, so we have met 858 00:43:44,910 --> 00:43:48,150 S7: believers who, when they became believers, their wife and children 859 00:43:48,150 --> 00:43:51,190 S7: were taken away. Um, we've had people who've had to 860 00:43:51,230 --> 00:43:54,710 S7: run away from family members who had kidnapped them, and 861 00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:58,350 S7: that absolutely takes an impact on our ministry and and 862 00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:59,290 S7: on people we love. 863 00:43:59,650 --> 00:44:03,529 S1: Wow. Last question. In a conversation that's gone far too quickly, Matt, 864 00:44:03,530 --> 00:44:05,330 S1: how can the people who are listening to our conversation 865 00:44:05,330 --> 00:44:07,489 S1: right now pray for you and your wife as you 866 00:44:07,489 --> 00:44:08,570 S1: serve in North Africa? 867 00:44:10,450 --> 00:44:13,049 S7: Pray for us for endurance and pray for the folks 868 00:44:13,050 --> 00:44:15,370 S7: who are working with. There is a small handful of 869 00:44:15,370 --> 00:44:18,250 S7: folks now who are professing Christ, and they are learning 870 00:44:18,250 --> 00:44:20,450 S7: how to stand up to persecution that you and I 871 00:44:20,450 --> 00:44:23,410 S7: may never endure. And so they really need the strength 872 00:44:23,410 --> 00:44:24,450 S7: of the spirit in them. 873 00:44:24,890 --> 00:44:27,450 S1: Wow. Thank you for that. You heard friends and those 874 00:44:27,450 --> 00:44:29,330 S1: of you who believe in the power of prayer. And 875 00:44:29,330 --> 00:44:31,410 S1: I hope you all do. As the Lord leads, lift 876 00:44:31,410 --> 00:44:34,089 S1: up Matt and Kim and the people that they're ministering to, 877 00:44:34,130 --> 00:44:37,130 S1: won't you? Absolutely. Fascinating book. If you are a missionary, 878 00:44:37,130 --> 00:44:39,610 S1: you should read this. If you love and support missionaries, 879 00:44:39,610 --> 00:44:42,649 S1: as so many of us do, prayerfully consider sending them 880 00:44:42,650 --> 00:44:45,210 S1: a copy of this book to encourage them. By the way, 881 00:44:45,530 --> 00:44:47,729 S1: and just generally, I think it was worth my time 882 00:44:47,730 --> 00:44:50,290 S1: reading a book so I'd have a richer, deeper idea 883 00:44:50,290 --> 00:44:52,969 S1: of the theology of suffering. Matt, thank you so much. 884 00:44:53,010 --> 00:44:55,210 S1: The Lord bless you and keep you. See you next time, friends.