S1: Circumstances plus my perspective equals my experience. I have very
S1: little control over most of my circumstance. I have 100%
S1: control over my perspective. You have to change your perspective
S1: on life and by God's grace, you can do that
S1: as you begin to follow Paul's example.
S2: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
S2: teaching pastor and CEO of living on the edge, Chip
S2: Ingram believes joy is our lifeline through life's struggles. But
S2: for many, joy is missing. Why is that and what
S2: can we do to recapture joy?
S3: Our featured resource at Building Relationships is Chip's new book,
S3: I choose Joy. Change your perspective. Change your life. Just
S3: go to Building Relationships. And Gary, I think there's a
S3: good news bad news proposition for us here today. The
S3: good news is you can have joy. The bad news
S3: is you have to choose it. And that's sometimes hard,
S3: isn't it?
S4: Well, you're right. And I think part of it is
S4: that people don't know you can choose it. And that's
S4: why I think the program today is going to be very,
S4: very helpful. So I'm excited about this program.
S3: Well, let's Remeet Chip Ingram, teaching pastor and CEO of
S3: living on the edge, pastor for more than 30 years.
S3: He's the author of a lot of excellent books, including yes,
S3: You Really Can Change and Holy Ambition. A featured resource
S3: today is I choose Joy. Change Your perspective, Change Your Life.
S3: We have a link right there at Building Relationships.
S4: Well, Chip, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S1: It is great to be with you all. Thanks so much.
S4: So you asked readers in your book to think of
S4: the most joyful person they know. So let's start the
S4: program with that question. Who's the most joyful person in
S4: Ship Ingram's life.
S1: You know, when I when I think of that, a
S1: name just pops up and it's, you know, talk about
S1: a good news, bad news. His name is Rick Roberts.
S1: He became one of my closest, closest friends. He had
S1: a very unexpected heart attack about three years ago. It
S1: was quarterback at Boise, and we could joke and laugh
S1: and and pray one minute later. He just lit up.
S1: I mean, his his smile, his countenance, ups, downs. It
S1: just didn't matter. He was just filled with joy. Many
S1: a time I'd get a text at 5:15 a.m. or something.
S1: We're both kind of early risers. Hey, bro. I miss you, man.
S1: Let's just get in the word together. I'll meet you
S1: at Pete's. You know, and the second person is, I
S1: have a sister who was her in her life. Really
S1: was the influence that led me to be open to
S1: later hear God's word and become a Christian. Her name
S1: was pinky, and she is a delight to this day
S1: and to this day. Some day, somehow, I want to
S1: be like her, you know. I talk to her on
S1: the phone two days ago. She lives in London, Kentucky,
S1: and many of you know, you know, the big twister
S1: went through there. And houses in her neighborhood are demolished.
S1: And as I called her, I just called. Are you okay? Oh. Oh, yeah.
S1: We're out cleaning up. We're just helping people and. Oh,
S1: it's so sad. You know, they've lost their homes and
S1: this and that. And her attitude was like, you know,
S1: I'm sure the Lord's going to use this for for good.
S1: And these people are hurting and we're helping them clean
S1: up now. And anyway, those are the two people that
S1: come to my mind that I don't have to be
S1: in their presence for more than about, uh 60s. That
S1: my countenance is raised.
S4: Well that's great. Now, Rick, you mentioned he had a
S4: heart attack. Is he still with us?
S1: It was, uh, actually, I was speaking at the Cove.
S1: Gary and I got a text from his wife, and
S1: he went up to play golf. He had sleep apnea
S1: and they're not sure. But he was up in the
S1: Tahoe area and he went to sleep and he never
S1: woke up. Was only 60 years old and, um, just
S1: probably one of the heart most hard hitting losses, you know,
S1: other than family. Just someone so full of life and
S1: so unexplainable. Went to sleep and never woke up.
S4: And that's always hard.
S1: Isn't it interesting that I. I bring about such a
S1: sad situation when we're going to talk about joy, but
S1: it also there's something to it to think that that's
S1: a reality. I mean, I mean Rick's in heaven and yeah,
S1: it's it's again, it's my first moments are I cried.
S1: I mean, I really, really cried at the loss. But
S1: the perspective which we're going to talk about was he
S1: had some big, big challenges in his life. His oldest
S1: son had some real mental bipolar type issues, and in
S1: a moment of weakness about three years earlier, committed suicide.
S1: And so he was joyful, but he carried a lot
S1: of pain. His son was a genuine believer. And he's
S1: reunited and, you know, again through one lens, my sorrow,
S1: through another lens. In God's kindness. He's reunited with his son.
S1: So much of joy is about how you look at
S1: life and the grace to have the perspective that doesn't
S1: just live with the up and down of circumstance.
S4: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the scriptures say God takes
S4: pleasure in the death of his saints. Also says God
S4: does not rejoice and is never happy when a sinner dies. So, well,
S4: let's talk about joy. People often talk about happiness and
S4: joy in the same framework. But they're quite different, aren't they?
S1: Yeah they are. You know, happiness comes from happenings, right?
S1: You know, when things are happening. Good. We're we're happy.
S1: You know, it's great. I mean, and I think, by
S1: the way, I think it's a really wonderful thing. And
S1: in many ways, I think the Lord rejoices when we're happy.
S1: You know, we have a baby. We're happy if you're
S1: an adult. I just went to a graduation of a granddaughter.
S1: I was happy she graduated. I mean, uh, when good
S1: things happen to us, we're happy. But, uh, happenings can
S1: also be very negative. And for most people, happiness rolls
S1: up and down. With the economy's up, the economy's down.
S1: Health is up, health is down. Relationships are good. Relationships
S1: are bad. So happiness sort of travels on the seas
S1: of of circumstances where joy is the byproduct of a
S1: relationship with Jesus, whereby from within there is a perspective
S1: and an emotion and a mindset. It doesn't mean that
S1: things are wonderful. It doesn't mean that circumstances are great.
S1: But there is an abiding, uh, holding up of your
S1: heart and your life and a connection with God that
S1: can bring joy. It was for the joy set before him.
S1: Jesus endured the cross. So even in the midst of
S1: those excruciating pain, difficulty and terrible circumstance, personally, we really
S1: can experience joy. But it's supernatural.
S4: Yeah. Yeah. Well, was there a specific life experience that
S4: prompted you to begin to explore the topic of joy
S4: and then write this book?
S1: There really was Gary. I, um, probably seven years ago, I, uh,
S1: I've always been pretty athletic and working out and even even,
S1: like 60, 61, I was playing full court basketball with
S1: college guys. And I reached as a guy, crossed over
S1: and I felt electrical shock go down my leg. And,
S1: I mean, I just couldn't couldn't move. And I thought, boy,
S1: I'm done. And I'd herniated a disc about ten years earlier.
S1: But this was different. And that started a journey of
S1: back issues that were like I'd never experienced. And I,
S1: you know, for the next two years I would be
S1: on ice every 20 minutes, almost 24 over seven. I
S1: kept pastoring, and because of technology, I could do like
S1: one message out of 3 or 4 and they would
S1: film it on this huge screen. I was laying on
S1: the on a table because I couldn't sit, because it
S1: was painful. I couldn't stand because it was painful. Um,
S1: it was I did whatever kind of treatment you could
S1: possibly do, and for two years, the just the pain,
S1: it would wear you down, wear you down. And eventually
S1: I had a major surgery, and they bolted a couple
S1: of my vertebrae together and fused them. And that brought
S1: some relief. And then, uh, two and a half years later,
S1: the above and below, where they bolted my back, it broke.
S1: And I had emergency surgery and the pain, they took
S1: me to the emergency room and must have given me
S1: something really strong. It's the first time in my life, Gary,
S1: I would say, if someone would have offered to shoot me.
S1: I would have said, just do it. It's a level
S1: I have never experienced and I mean insincerity. I don't
S1: mean that much as a metaphor and nothing touched it.
S1: I mean, they gave me 2 or 3 pain pills
S1: and nothing touched it. And then the rehab from all
S1: of that. And then after all that, you know, it's
S1: months and months and months. And so, you know, it's
S1: like you're into between before the first surgeries, then the
S1: surgeries and later surgeries and then living with pain all
S1: the time. I probably had about six years under my
S1: belt of really, really, really hurting. And, uh, it was
S1: near the end of the rehab. And, you know, I
S1: was walking again and doing, you know, some stuff. And
S1: I was sitting on the hearth. And my wife, she's
S1: really very godly, uh, very sweet, but she's also very direct.
S1: And she looked at me and, you know, I got
S1: up and I moaned and groaned a second and she goes,
S1: could you could you just stay there for a minute?
S1: I said, well, sure, honey. And she looked at me
S1: with those eyes like, I don't want to offend you
S1: and you know I love you, but can I tell
S1: you something? I said, well, sure. She looked at me
S1: and said, do you realize how negative you've become? And
S1: my first response was, oh no, no, no. You know, hey,
S1: it just really hurts. And and then she said, Chip,
S1: when you get up, you groan. Everywhere we go, people
S1: ask about your back. You tell them about this, you
S1: tell them about that. And the lens that you look at,
S1: I mean, it's it can be sunny and all you
S1: see is clouds. You've you have been one of the
S1: most positive people at the time. We lived together and
S1: been married for 40 years. It's 46 now. And she
S1: just said, honey, I want to tell you, you you know,
S1: you I think you do do well in larger public places,
S1: but you're you're becoming a very negative person. And I boy,
S1: I took that to heart. And as in the in
S1: the kindness and providence of God, I was scheduled to, uh,
S1: do one of those yearly things at the Billy Graham center,
S1: and was praying about, you know, what? What should I
S1: teach on? And, you know, I thought, you know, I'd
S1: like to do something to build a rhythm. And I
S1: so it was like I started studying Philippians chapter one
S1: and I thought, forget the forget teaching anybody else, Lord,
S1: this is for me. And I begin to study this passage.
S1: And I saw, here's a man living with imminent death
S1: and uncertainty and in prison, and this book is filled
S1: with joy. And what I saw was it wasn't about
S1: trying hard to have joy. There were principles in this
S1: first chapter that literally I had to go into training.
S1: I literally we can talk about it as we go.
S1: I mean, I begin to write down on some cards,
S1: here's your current thinking, here's what you've learned, here's the process.
S1: And I literally went into training and would read every morning,
S1: every night. And then I taught that and it it
S1: turned my life around. And it also had a huge
S1: impact on other people. And as a result of that,
S1: it was like, you know, people are struggling with mental
S1: issues and anxiety and discouragement. Um, and so I was
S1: asked to make it a book. And so now it's
S1: a book. I choose joy.
S4: Well, well, I think any of our listeners who have
S4: ever had back pain, leg pain and all of that,
S4: they're identifying with what you're saying. And if there's joy
S4: in that situation, they want it. So glad you're with
S4: us today and glad you wrote this book. You talked
S4: about the first chapter of Philippians and how that impacted
S4: you on this, this emphasis on joy when you were
S4: going through a lot, a lot of pain. So tell
S4: us why that passage is crucial to the idea of
S4: choosing joy.
S1: Well, as I read it, I begin to walk through it.
S1: And for those not familiar with the passage, it opens
S1: up where you know Paul and Timothy, a normal introduction.
S1: He's writing in response to a gift that they give him.
S1: When a church member named Name Epaphroditus brought a financial gift.
S1: If you're familiar with prisons in the day, they didn't
S1: feed you. If your friends didn't bring you food, you
S1: would starve. And so they gave a financial gift, and
S1: he's writing to thank him. And he's also aware that
S1: there's a few external issues and some conflict and some things.
S1: But he wants to really thank him. And so, you know,
S1: imagine being chained to a guard new guard every six hours.
S1: You're in a Roman prison as it opens up after
S1: praying for them and saying, he goes, I thank my
S1: God and all my remembrance of you all, always offering
S1: prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all.
S1: And then he goes on and prays a very specific prayer.
S1: But that struck me. Okay, wait a second. You're chained.
S1: You're in prison. We'll learn later in the chapter, you
S1: may be executed and you're praying with joy. And then I,
S1: then I notice the second thing is, is that his
S1: focus first is upward, and then it's outward on other people.
S1: And what I saw from that, Gary was, you know,
S1: it's yes, that was what he specifically did. But but
S1: there's a bit of a principle here. When I found
S1: myself really discouraged and down and negative, what I, what
S1: I realized was my focus was on me, my circumstances,
S1: what I was experiencing when Paul was in terrible circumstances.
S1: His focus was twofold. It was upward. He's praying, but
S1: he's praying with joy, and it was outward. He was
S1: concerned about that. Them. So he prays that God will
S1: reveal his love to them. And he prays that they
S1: would have wisdom and understanding and and that they could
S1: approve the things that are excellent so they could live
S1: this kind of life. And so the first chapter, the
S1: first section is I begin to say, you know what?
S1: I think there's a question I could start asking myself.
S1: And the first one would be Chip, where's your focus?
S1: The moment I start feeling down, discouraged, the moment I
S1: hear negative things coming out of my mouth. Ask, where's
S1: your focus? Is it up and out or is it
S1: on yourself? Gary, if I can just be very candid because,
S1: you know, uh, I had to catch myself 30, 40,
S1: 50 times a day early on. I would hear me
S1: say something that was negative. Where's your focus? Me? Uh,
S1: I my my mind. You know, I got where it
S1: wouldn't come out of my mouth. And then I would
S1: start looking at a situation or my mind start thinking.
S1: And it would be like negative. Negative. Okay. Where's your focus? Me?
S1: And so I begin to just ask that one question. Chip,
S1: where's your focus? Is it upward and outward or is
S1: it inward. And so then after I went through the
S1: entire chapter, what I saw was from that truth, there
S1: were like four questions that I started to ask myself
S1: that that each changed my perspective. And the second section,
S1: as he talked his circumstances, he says, have turned out
S1: for the greater progress of the gospel. The question there was,
S1: what's my purpose? In other words, he thought what his
S1: purpose was to honor and serve God. And hey! The
S1: gospel is going forward, even though my personal life is
S1: going downward. Paul says, and this I rejoice. And what
S1: I realized was, okay, if I look at my life
S1: through the lens of how things only impact me, I'm
S1: not going to have a lot of joy. But if
S1: I can look at whatever's happening to my life through
S1: the lens of is this fulfilling God's purpose? How? How
S1: is God using this to reach people? How is God
S1: using this to build up other believers? How is God
S1: using this to make me more like Jesus? So I
S1: started asking. Those were the first two questions. Where's my
S1: focus and what's your purpose? That created a little, I guess,
S1: what I would call a formula. And so I wrote
S1: that on a, on a separate card and it was
S1: the letter C plus the letter P equals E. Circumstances
S1: plus my perspective equals my experience. And what I realized
S1: was I have very little control over most of my circumstance.
S1: I have 100% control over my p perspective. You know,
S1: like everything in life, you see people who have terrible
S1: circumstances and they have amazing attitudes and joy, and other
S1: people have not even to bad circumstances and life stinks.
S1: So that was the key. Realizing you have to change
S1: your perspective on life and by God's grace, you can
S1: do that as you begin to follow Paul's example.
S4: Well, that's powerful. And I'm sitting here thinking about those
S4: who are going through particularly ongoing pain like you described
S4: in your own life there for so long, because you're
S4: exactly right. The tendency is we're thinking about ourselves and
S4: focusing on ourselves and our situation. And because the circumstances
S4: are bad, you know, we we have a down, negative
S4: attitude so. Well. So so those two questions are where
S4: is your focus? Is it on myself and my situation,
S4: or am I? Is it on God looking up to
S4: God and looking outward to other people? And then what's
S4: my purpose? How can God use this in a positive way,
S4: which he was? I mean, Paul wrote the whole letter
S4: in that situation. The letter of Philippians. So yeah. Well,
S4: you have two other questions that you discussed also. The
S4: next one is, is where is your hope? Why is
S4: that question important?
S1: Well, you know, if my hope is in only this
S1: life or in a person or in a job, or
S1: when I can buy a house or when I get better,
S1: those things, I have no guarantees on them. But if
S1: my hope is something that can never change. And so,
S1: you know, in verses 12 through 18, Paul says, you know,
S1: this has turned out for the greater progress of the gospel.
S1: The believers are growing. And again, he goes, you know
S1: something As much as people are using these circumstances to
S1: undermine my ministry. Guess what? God's using it to get
S1: the gospel out. And then he gets into his personal life,
S1: beginning in verse 19, and he doesn't know whether he's
S1: going to live or die. Gary. And he goes, well,
S1: you know, I'm not sure I may be executed. I
S1: may be pardoned, I don't know. And then he he
S1: talks about this dilemma of, you know, it's more profitable
S1: if I stay with regard to you. Right. You know,
S1: I can keep ministering to you. It's more profitable to
S1: me because to be absent from the body is to
S1: be present with the Lord. So he looks at death
S1: in a very different way than than most of us do,
S1: even as Christians. That would be great. And then he
S1: concludes that my sense, you know, we just get this
S1: idea of the prompting of God's Spirit. My sense is,
S1: God's going to pardon me because your faith may need
S1: more encouragement, and I need to minister for a longer
S1: period with you. But what I realized was what he
S1: does in that what freed him from the fear of death?
S1: What freed him from, you know, how is everything going
S1: to turn out? And being paralyzed by anxiety? What freed
S1: him was his hope was not in how things turned out.
S1: His hope was in the absolute certainty that the moment
S1: he would die, that he would be in the presence
S1: of Christ. And if that was not the plan, his
S1: hope was in the goodness, the kindness, the wisdom, and
S1: the sovereignty of God. That a good God would only
S1: allow good things for the long term to bring about
S1: the highest and best results for the most people. And
S1: so his hope wasn't in, uh, something that was temporal.
S1: He had an eternal perspective that changed his whole focus.
S4: You know, you tell that that and reminds me of
S4: an account from my son when he was still single.
S4: He was working in Prague, in the Czech Republic. But
S4: every weekend he would go out to other places, other cities,
S4: and sometimes other countries, and take his guitar and go
S4: to the center of town, start playing his guitar and
S4: singing some secular songs. And then he moved to Christian songs,
S4: and then he'd start talking to the young people that
S4: showed up. And my wife said to him when he
S4: was at home visiting one time, she said, Derek, I'm concerned, son,
S4: you go out there, nobody knows where you are. You're
S4: by yourself. If something happened to you, we wouldn't even
S4: know about it. And he said, well, mom, what's the
S4: worst thing that could happen to me? I could get
S4: killed and I would go to heaven. A few years
S4: before you do. What is so bad about that, mom? Wow.
S1: Wow.
S4: And that's when my wife released him to God. But,
S4: you know, he had that same thing. To be absent
S4: from the body. To be present with the Lord. What's
S4: so bad about that?
S1: So part of our our lack of having that perspective is,
S1: I think, heaven. Maybe there's not a whole lot of
S1: teaching on it, or maybe there is some teaching, but
S1: I think the average believer doesn't really look forward to having,
S1: you know, you think there's a there's a reward for
S1: those that are longing for his appearing. But but I think,
S1: you know, a picture of heaven that is maybe a
S1: bit more popular that somehow we're going to be in a,
S1: you know, eternal worship service or there's nothing to do or,
S1: you know, we're going to float around with angels and
S1: sip iced tea or sort of these ethereal pictures as
S1: opposed to a new heaven, a new earth, a culture,
S1: a life that work perfect environment. You know, it's it's
S1: Eden on steroids for good and the greatest and deepest
S1: things that will ever experience. I think the Apostle Paul, obviously,
S1: none of us know what his trip to the third
S1: heaven was or what he saw, but I think it's
S1: pretty obvious that he had such a clarity that there
S1: is nothing better ever, and that if that was the outcome, uh,
S1: a lot like your son's perspective is that frees people
S1: from from anxiety and fear.
S4: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so there's another question that
S4: you asked. First of all, you ask yourself where where's
S4: my focus on myself, my situation, my pain, my trouble?
S4: Or is it on God and on other people? And
S4: then the question, what's my purpose, you know, and what's
S4: God's purpose in all of this? And then where's my hope?
S4: You know, in circumstances or in God. And then the
S4: fourth question you were asking yourself is what are your expectations?
S4: Talk about that.
S1: That was I got to the end of the chapter
S1: as I was studying. And in verse 27, you know,
S1: he still doesn't know if he's going to live or die.
S1: But he says, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of
S1: the gospel of Christ. So whether I come and see
S1: you or remain absent, I may hear of you, that
S1: you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind,
S1: striving together for the faith of the gospel. In no
S1: way alarmed by your opponents, which is a sign of
S1: destruction for them, but of salvation for you. And that too,
S1: is from God. And then you get these last two verses,
S1: and probably for years I might have skipped over these
S1: a little too quickly. He says, for to you it
S1: has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe
S1: in him, but also to suffer for his sake, experiencing
S1: the same conflict which you saw in me and now
S1: hear to be in me. And as I studied this, Gary,
S1: when he gets this line, he says, for you it
S1: has been granted. That word granted is the root word.
S1: It's for grace. And it's literally to you, Philippian church.
S1: God gave a grace gift and the grace gift. This
S1: is a privilege. This is this is something that's good.
S1: It's been granted to you not only to believe, but
S1: also to suffer for his sake. And I don't know
S1: that I meet a lot of Christians and I don't
S1: know that personally. You meet even a theology of people
S1: who are saying, how could suffering ever be great? And
S1: yet Paul in chapter three is going to pray. He says,
S1: I want to know him, and I want to know
S1: the intimacy and the fellowship of his suffering. And I
S1: think we do almost anything possible to avoid suffering. And
S1: don't get me wrong, there's some perverted theology of, you know,
S1: you know, walking on hands and knees over a glass
S1: to suffer for Jesus. And we we've seen, you know,
S1: bizarre things. But the fact of the matter is, is
S1: I think we live in a culture that we try
S1: to avoid suffering of any kind at all cost.
S2: Thanks for joining us for the Building Relationships with Doctor
S2: Gary Chapman podcast. He's the author of the New York
S2: Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Our guest today
S2: is author and speaker Chip Ingram. You hear him on
S2: the program living on the edge, and we're talking about
S2: his book, I choose Joy. Change your perspective. Change your life.
S2: Find out more at Five Love languages.com. Again, go to
S2: five Love languages.com.
S3: In our last segment, Chip and Gary were talking about
S3: how we try in this culture to avoid suffering at
S3: all costs. And let's pick up right there.
S1: Any pain, any difficulty, any struggle, whether it's physical, material, psychological,
S1: there's a pill. There's a quick solution for it. And
S1: I think that has seeped so into not just the
S1: culture but into the Christian community, where when there's a challenge, well, God,
S1: where are you? Or what's wrong? Or did I do
S1: something wrong as opposed to part of life in a
S1: fallen world? As we live in this flesh, God has
S1: granted us, we will believe, but also we will suffer.
S1: And so. But if our expectations are, we should never suffer.
S1: Or I must have done something terrible if I suffered,
S1: or God is not good if I've suffered. That perspective
S1: will cause people to do a nosedive emotionally and mentally,
S1: and sometimes well beyond. As opposed to oh, I joke,
S1: if you forgive me, I'm a I'm a sports guy.
S1: And so I've got a good buddy who, um, who's
S1: a tight end played pro football. And he was there's
S1: a number of years ago and he since has really
S1: made a lot of progress. But he was really struggling
S1: in his marriage and he said, hey, can we talk?
S1: You know, let's go. Let's go play nine holes of golf.
S1: And I want to talk. And so we get first
S1: 3 or 4 holes, and I listen to all the
S1: struggles and this and that and this and that and
S1: this and that. And we get to about hole number four.
S1: And finally he just looks at me and hands on
S1: his hips and he goes, you know, just no matter
S1: how hard I work there's something else to work on,
S1: something else to work on, something else to work on.
S1: He goes, Chip, I don't know. Is it worth it?
S1: This marriage is way too hard. Is it always going
S1: to be this hard? It doesn't seem fair. And in
S1: a moment of maybe love or a little sadistic humor,
S1: I said, now, can I ask you a question? He said, well, sure.
S1: I said, now, you played high school football, right? And
S1: it was in a state place where it was really hot.
S1: I said, do you remember those two a day practices? Oh, man,
S1: those were murder. And then you play college football, right? Oh, man.
S1: Do you remember those two a day practices? Yeah. Remember
S1: lifting weights? Yeah. Oh, excruciating. And then you played football, right? Yeah, right.
S1: He goes. Now you're a tight end. Correct. Okay, so
S1: you you do an end route and you come across
S1: the middle and you catch the ball. And a linebacker,
S1: I mean, puts his helmet right in your chest. Do
S1: you get up and put your hands on your hip
S1: and go, that hurts. That's not fair, boy. That's not nice.
S1: And he kind of smiled. So I said, so you're
S1: telling me that you were willing to batter your body,
S1: work like crazy, endure incredible pain, Sweat beyond belief. Lift weights.
S1: Almost 24 over seven so that you could catch a
S1: football and have your career go forward. But you're telling
S1: me when it gets really hard to learn how to
S1: love your wife and be other centered, that it's too hard?
S1: And he looked at me and kind of shook his head.
S1: And what I said is, here's the key. What are
S1: your expectations? You expected two days to be hard. You
S1: expected when you caught the ball, you were going to
S1: get hit and really hard. And so your mental outlook
S1: and you prepared yourself. You want to have a great marriage.
S1: You want to be a great father. You want to
S1: be a great Christian. Guess what? What you can expect
S1: is there's spiritual opposition you can expect. It's going to
S1: be challenging. You can expect that just like you don't
S1: respond right all the time. Your mate's not going to.
S1: No matter how much you love your kids, they're going
S1: to make some choices. It'll break your heart. What do
S1: you expect when you shift it from everything ought to
S1: be right, because I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.
S1: And if God loves me, my life should turn out
S1: semi painless. That perspective will cause you to experience no
S1: joy in your life because it's a false expectation.
S4: Yeah. Wow. Oh, I'm sure our listeners are sitting there
S4: like I'm sitting there and thinking, yes, I see it,
S4: I see it, I see it. But by nature we
S4: tend to do exactly the opposite, right? Yeah.
S1: Well, you know, my wife, when she said that, you know,
S1: I wasn't saying it out loud, but, you know, I'm thinking, hey, Lord, I,
S1: you know, at the time, I've been a pastor 35 years.
S1: I mean, I've tried to be faithful, Lord, I'm, you know,
S1: I'm I was, you know, giving him my little resume.
S1: And there's this unconscious thing that seeps in that if
S1: we're obedient and we do X, Y, and Z, somehow
S1: God is obligated to provide, you know, x, Y, and z.
S1: Good wonderful life. And and, you know, think about it, Gary.
S1: You and I and many people in ministry, we've studied
S1: the scriptures for how many years? And yet you suddenly
S1: fall into that. And and you think of how the apostles,
S1: they love Jesus, they followed him. They they did exactly
S1: what he called them to do. And and all but one,
S1: I think, were martyred. So were they out of God's will?
S1: The Apostle Paul's perspective, you know, a parallel passage that
S1: in Romans five he tells us that, you know, we
S1: have peace with God, and we've been justified by faith
S1: and have peace with God. And we exalt and rejoice
S1: in the glory and this, this new life. And then
S1: in verse two he says, we also exult in our
S1: tribulation or our problems, our struggles, because tribulation brings about endurance,
S1: suffering through endurance and endurance, going through hard, difficult, painful times.
S1: We're never more dependent. And in that dependency, what happens
S1: is we change proven character. And as we change that
S1: proven character and seeing God work in our lives, hope
S1: is born in our heart. That hope that God is faithful,
S1: that hope of the future, that hope of heaven. And
S1: he goes and hope never disappoints because it's there's this
S1: process of difficulty and pain and struggle. And where he
S1: says then that the the love of God is poured
S1: out in our heart by the Holy Spirit. I think
S1: both of us would say, if you ask us to
S1: describe the people that know and love and emanate the
S1: presence of Jesus and are loving and kind and like
S1: someday I want to be, most all of them have
S1: been through levels of pain or difficulty or struggle or betrayal,
S1: and it's been in the midst of that, that they
S1: drew near to Jesus and experienced his love and his
S1: power that, um, that has made them because they've responded
S1: in faith and dependency. The kind of people that they are. And, um,
S1: it's part of God's I mean, part of the game
S1: plan of transformation is, yes, it's being in God's Word. Yes.
S1: It's praying. Yes. You have to be an authentic community.
S1: And yes, suffering is a part of the journey that
S1: you can expect. But the promise is not that it
S1: will be easy. The promise is I'll never leave you.
S1: I'll never forsake you, and that he'll be with us.
S1: And as he is with us, he not only can
S1: change externally the things out there, but he often does
S1: a whole lot more work in changing us.
S4: Yeah, absolutely. Chip, I'm thinking that there are people who
S4: be listening to us today and they've just lost their job,
S4: you know, and it's their livelihood. Or maybe someone who's
S4: just gone through a divorce, not a divorce they wanted,
S4: but one that was kind of forced on them. And
S4: they're sitting there. Yeah, but am I supposed to have
S4: joy in the midst of this? Now, we're not saying
S4: they should be happy, but we are saying they should
S4: have joy. Or they can have joy, right?
S1: Yes. You know, on the back of the book, I
S1: put a quote because I think it's a profound one
S1: by C.S. Lewis, and it says, Joy is the serious
S1: business of heaven. I think some writer of Christian history
S1: made an interesting remark. He said, love may have been,
S1: you know, the the commodity of the early church, but
S1: joy was their calling card. There was something about their
S1: joy in the midst of their suffering that was the
S1: greatest apologetic. And that's been true ever since. And so
S1: what I'd say to this person who's going through that
S1: and pastoring, as you and I have. There's still a
S1: lot of those people in my life right now that
S1: I'm going through some of those things with. It doesn't
S1: mean there isn't sadness and disappointment and temptations toward great
S1: anger and a process and grief. So this is not
S1: about denying your emotions or acting as though you know
S1: you put on a smiley face. But this is saying,
S1: in the midst of this hurt and this pain, you stop,
S1: where's my focus? And then it's upward. God praise you
S1: that I don't understand it. I don't like it. It hurts,
S1: but I, I love you. You are a good and
S1: sovereign God. And so I'm going to pray for those
S1: people that hurt me. I'm going to to pray for
S1: some other people that have challenges and. Okay. God, this
S1: this is so unfair. What's your purpose in it? God what?
S1: As my fellow workers, see what I do as I
S1: respond to being abandoned by this person who left with
S1: another woman, or left with another man, or a business
S1: partner who opted out and took all the money and
S1: no one knows where he's at. How I respond, Lord,
S1: what's your purpose in this? Yes. I'm hurt. Yes I'm mad.
S1: But as we lean in and then we can say, God,
S1: my hope is in you. And sometimes we have to
S1: say that some of the deepest hurts reveal some idols
S1: in our life, some struggles in our life that God
S1: God wants to, for our good, purify and get our
S1: hope where it needs to be. And I think asking
S1: those questions, where's my hope? What did I really expect?
S1: And leaning in and just saying, Jesus, I don't like this.
S1: And I feel hurt and sad and mad and and
S1: I don't understand. And I feel confused. But I'm coming
S1: to you. Be with me. Encourage me. I have I
S1: have learned more and more to live in the Psalms. Gary,
S1: in the midst of the hardest and most difficult times.
S1: And what you realize is you're not alone, that some
S1: of the people who know God the best, it's in
S1: the midst of those that he really will meet us.
S1: And it's in that overflow. He buoys us up. That's
S1: I don't know how else to say it. And and
S1: it doesn't mean that everything's wonderful or your emotions are
S1: up all the time, but there's a sustaining joy that
S1: we can have. And it's here's the thing. It gives
S1: you strength. And that's what I want people to remember.
S1: This isn't like, well, this would be better for me,
S1: and I'll be more fulfilled and I'll choose to do
S1: these things. And I guess I should write these on
S1: these cards or get this book or whatever. No, no, no,
S1: this is this is about the joy of the Lord
S1: is our strength. Joy is I'm not a victim. Joy is.
S1: I will make it through this. I can do all
S1: things through Christ who gives me strength. Joy is he
S1: is with me always. And there's a testimony coming out
S1: of this. I will be a trophy of God's grace.
S1: And there's a setting your face like a flint, like
S1: Jesus did toward the cross. And there's a joy that
S1: boils up inside of you. That takes away that victim mentality.
S1: And when you tackle that, your whole perspective and your life,
S1: it becomes not only a great testimony, but you experience
S1: God in ways that many of us never have.
S4: So I hear you saying, among other things, it's running
S4: to God rather than running away from God or saying,
S4: why did you let this happen to me? Or it's
S4: recognizing that our hope is in him, and we want
S4: to put our faith in him every day and talk
S4: to him every day and be honest to him about
S4: our feelings.
S1: Yes. And I think I've done that. And I think
S1: what helped me from this book and why it's been
S1: so helpful is just I keep going back to as
S1: different circumstances come in my life. It's like I have
S1: this mental filter C plus P equals E, That's the circumstance.
S1: That little one or big one, a medium sized one
S1: that's negative or hard or difficult. And then I ask
S1: those questions. What for? To get that perspective. And and
S1: and what I would say to Gary is that it
S1: doesn't come naturally. You have to go into you have
S1: to retrain your brain and your mind and your expectations
S1: around what's true. People would laugh, but I mean, where's
S1: your focus, chip? What's your purpose? Chip. Where's your hope? Chip.
S1: What did you expect? And then and then underneath of
S1: it I rejoice in the Lord always. And again I
S1: say rejoice. And then I put a little smiley face
S1: on that card. I it says smile and it says,
S1: you know, lighten up, be positive, don't complain, don't seek sympathy.
S1: All of that is on one card. And to this day,
S1: it's it's on my desk right in front. So every
S1: day I stare at that to go into training to
S1: realize I can't control what happens to me. I have 100% control.
S1: By the grace of God and the power of the
S1: Holy Spirit and the strength of His Word to determine
S1: how I respond, what will be my perspective? And as
S1: my perspective goes, so goes my life. That's my hope
S1: for those people going through that hard time right now.
S1: It doesn't minimize the pain, the loss, the hurt, the
S1: sin of other people at all. That's not the message.
S1: This is not self-help. Talk yourself into, you know, a
S1: better attitude. This is seeking God's perspective in the midst
S1: of a fallen world that allows you to experience the
S1: intimacy of Jesus, that produces a supernatural joy in the
S1: midst of circumstances that appear to others as completely unbearable.
S1: And God sustains you.
S4: Yeah. Powerful. Powerful message. Well, Chip, I know that many,
S4: many Christians struggle in this area. In fact, maybe all
S4: of us struggle in this area. And, you know, I
S4: hear this often in my office, you know, if God
S4: is sovereign and God is all powerful, why does he
S4: allow this hard stuff? And why did he allow Paul's imprisonment?
S4: And shouldn't he make life easier for us if he
S4: really loves us? Speak. Speak to that thought. Uh, those
S4: thoughts that people have.
S1: You know, I think it touches on maybe the greatest
S1: need that we as Christians have and will ever have,
S1: maybe always have, is getting an accurate picture of God.
S1: And God is in control. But he's also not only sovereign,
S1: he's all wise and he's all knowing. And so he
S1: knows the beginning from the end. And the wisdom of
S1: God says he brings about the best possible ends, by
S1: the best possible means for the most possible people, for
S1: the longest possible time. And so when he wanted the
S1: gospel to go into all the world, and when he
S1: wanted Paul to fulfill his purposes, The kindest, most gentle
S1: and best way was for him to be in prison,
S1: chained to guards who would have exponential impact because of
S1: their status, the Praetorian Guards. And he would be in
S1: the center of the world's power, and people from strategic
S1: places all around the world would hear about Paul and
S1: his testimony. And so, to fulfill God's purpose, because he's
S1: not only sovereign, he's also loving and all powerful and kind.
S1: And I think that's that's where we can go. When
S1: I had an experience that was I would just call
S1: it the, uh, the worst betrayal of my life, most
S1: painful thing I could I had ever experienced at the time. Uh,
S1: I've struggled and, I mean, I was really angry. And
S1: I went through all of, all measure of emotions. And
S1: I asked God, if you're really in control, how could
S1: you let this happen? And I went back to if
S1: there was a kinder or gentler or better way for
S1: me to become more like Jesus, and for Jesus to
S1: fulfill what he wants to do in me and through me.
S1: I would be experiencing that now. You know, I had
S1: to check, you know, have I sinned? And that that
S1: assumption is, as far as I know, I'm walking with
S1: the Lord. And I when I look back a many, many, many,
S1: many years now, that actual negative, terrible, painful event opened
S1: the door to steps that I would have never taken
S1: in directions I would have never considered. That probably has
S1: shaped everything that God's ever done in my life since.
S1: And we don't see the big picture. Kierkegaard said that
S1: you you can only understand life looking backwards, but you
S1: have to live it forwards. It's in this moment of
S1: when it doesn't make sense forwards that you can look back.
S1: I often will get groups together and say, I want
S1: you to really think hard and I want you to
S1: share with me the most painful, difficult, ugly, whatever situation
S1: that maybe it happened five, ten, 20 years ago. That
S1: now when you look back, you see how it was
S1: used for good. And remembering those kind of things in
S1: the past often can help us endure so, so much.
S1: I think what we want progress, and that's good. But
S1: sometimes the greatest progress is you endure. I mean, I
S1: don't like today, but I'm going to make it just
S1: for today. And then you get up and you just
S1: make it. You know, I can't do this tomorrow, but
S1: there's no grace until tomorrow comes. And that's a, you know,
S1: you counsel so many people. Gary, what do you say
S1: to them when really the goal, God's will, is endure
S1: right now and choose to rejoice even though you don't
S1: feel like it?
S4: Yeah. Well, I think that that is the key because
S4: it's all a matter of perspective. And by nature I'm
S4: empathetic with them. I can see how you would feel,
S4: what you feel, how you could think, what you think.
S4: But let's look at the bigger picture, you know, and
S4: try to share the kind of things you've shared on
S4: this program today. I do want to ask you another
S4: personal question, Chip. At the beginning of our program, you
S4: shared that journey with all the back pain and all
S4: that you had for their years. I want to know,
S4: how's your back situation today?
S1: Well, you know, I worked out this morning, so I
S1: didn't use to be able to do that. I got
S1: on one of those stair climber things and I can
S1: do an exercise bike. I have I have a little
S1: struggle standing still for very long. And I have a
S1: struggle walking, you know, more than 100 yards or so.
S1: I kind of need to sit down. I've had three
S1: epidural injections so far this year, and one was somewhat
S1: helpful and the other two weren't. So I have to
S1: take like pain pills all the time. I have a
S1: high pain tolerance, which probably is is good. It's probably
S1: developed and I can honestly say, uh, you know, I'm
S1: still saying, you know what, Lord, I, I have seen
S1: you supernaturally heal people if you want to snap your
S1: fingers or you wouldn't even take that, I could be
S1: whole one second from now. I don't know how much
S1: pain I need to be as dependent as I need
S1: to be to do all that you want me to do.
S1: All I know is that this season of my life,
S1: I'm seeing God work in me and through me in
S1: ways that I never dreamed. And I don't want to
S1: just get it out for some relief if, um, because
S1: of my hard headedness. And I really can be that way,
S1: if I need some level of pain, that allows me
S1: to be very, very dependent because it has and I'm
S1: at the core of me, you know, maybe everybody else
S1: does too, but I, I can be very self dependent
S1: and very proud and very arrogant. And when I'm in pain, uh,
S1: I'm not very tempted to be any of those things.
S4: Well, I ask you that question because I want our
S4: listeners to hear and know that you are still going
S4: through pain, just as Paul was when he wrote his book.
S4: You're not in jail, I understand that, but a lot
S4: of pain. When you wrote this book, and I really
S4: believe that this, this particular book is going to be
S4: used of God to help a lot of people. I
S4: cannot imagine that people will just listen to what we're
S4: saying today and not want to go get this book,
S4: because I think God can use the things we've been
S4: talking about here to help them have a totally different perspective.
S4: So I just want to thank you for being with
S4: us today. I want to thank you for writing this
S4: book and and for continuing to do you know, what
S4: God has placed in your hands to do in the
S4: midst of your present situation, which is what I hope
S4: all of us can learn how to do.
S1: Well, thanks so much, Gary, for having me. And thanks
S1: for those kind words, because one of my love languages
S1: is words of affirmation. And I've used those five love
S1: languages a zillion times in my personal life and marriage.
S1: So God bless you, my friend, and keep pressing ahead.
S4: Thank you. God bless you.
S3: What an encouraging conversation today with Chip Ingram. And if
S3: you want to choose joy in whatever circumstance you're in today,
S3: go to building relationships. You'll see the book titled I
S3: choose Joy. Change your perspective, Change Your life. Again, go
S3: to Building Relationships.
S4: And next week we're going to take you back for
S4: a historic broadcast from 17 years ago.
S2: Don't miss our very first Dear Gary broadcast before we
S2: called it Dear Gary. That's coming up in one week.
S2: A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick
S2: and Janice backing. Building relationships with Gary Chapman is a
S2: production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a
S2: ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.