WEBVTT - I Choose Joy | Chip Ingram 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:06.200 Circumstances plus my perspective equals my experience. I have very 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:10.280 little control over most of my circumstance. I have 100% 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.560 control over my perspective. You have to change your perspective 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.079 on life and by God's grace, you can do that 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.120 as you begin to follow Paul's example. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:27.680 Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.800 the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today, 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.200 teaching pastor and CEO of living on the edge, Chip 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.360 Ingram believes joy is our lifeline through life's struggles. But 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.600 for many, joy is missing. Why is that and what 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:44.600 can we do to recapture joy? 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:48.560 Our featured resource at Building Relationships is Chip's new book, 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:53.240 I choose Joy. Change your perspective. Change your life. Just 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.480 go to Building Relationships. And Gary, I think there's a 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.389 good news bad news proposition for us here today. The 0:01:00.390 --> 0:01:03.390 good news is you can have joy. The bad news 0:01:03.390 --> 0:01:06.830 is you have to choose it. And that's sometimes hard, 0:01:06.830 --> 0:01:07.470 isn't it? 0:01:07.630 --> 0:01:09.630 Well, you're right. And I think part of it is 0:01:09.630 --> 0:01:11.949 that people don't know you can choose it. And that's 0:01:11.950 --> 0:01:14.149 why I think the program today is going to be very, 0:01:14.150 --> 0:01:17.790 very helpful. So I'm excited about this program. 0:01:18.030 --> 0:01:22.150 Well, let's Remeet Chip Ingram, teaching pastor and CEO of 0:01:22.150 --> 0:01:25.029 living on the edge, pastor for more than 30 years. 0:01:25.030 --> 0:01:28.309 He's the author of a lot of excellent books, including yes, 0:01:28.310 --> 0:01:32.510 You Really Can Change and Holy Ambition. A featured resource 0:01:32.510 --> 0:01:36.429 today is I choose Joy. Change Your perspective, Change Your Life. 0:01:36.550 --> 0:01:39.149 We have a link right there at Building Relationships. 0:01:40.830 --> 0:01:43.550 Well, Chip, welcome back to Building Relationships. 0:01:43.990 --> 0:01:46.550 It is great to be with you all. Thanks so much. 0:01:47.030 --> 0:01:49.990 So you asked readers in your book to think of 0:01:49.990 --> 0:01:54.790 the most joyful person they know. So let's start the 0:01:54.790 --> 0:01:59.630 program with that question. Who's the most joyful person in 0:01:59.630 --> 0:02:01.150 Ship Ingram's life. 0:02:01.950 --> 0:02:04.430 You know, when I when I think of that, a 0:02:04.470 --> 0:02:07.550 name just pops up and it's, you know, talk about 0:02:07.550 --> 0:02:09.990 a good news, bad news. His name is Rick Roberts. 0:02:10.350 --> 0:02:14.190 He became one of my closest, closest friends. He had 0:02:14.190 --> 0:02:17.750 a very unexpected heart attack about three years ago. It 0:02:17.750 --> 0:02:21.829 was quarterback at Boise, and we could joke and laugh 0:02:21.950 --> 0:02:25.630 and and pray one minute later. He just lit up. 0:02:25.669 --> 0:02:30.350 I mean, his his smile, his countenance, ups, downs. It 0:02:30.350 --> 0:02:33.630 just didn't matter. He was just filled with joy. Many 0:02:33.630 --> 0:02:36.710 a time I'd get a text at 5:15 a.m. or something. 0:02:36.750 --> 0:02:39.630 We're both kind of early risers. Hey, bro. I miss you, man. 0:02:39.630 --> 0:02:41.470 Let's just get in the word together. I'll meet you 0:02:41.470 --> 0:02:44.709 at Pete's. You know, and the second person is, I 0:02:44.710 --> 0:02:48.669 have a sister who was her in her life. Really 0:02:48.669 --> 0:02:51.950 was the influence that led me to be open to 0:02:51.990 --> 0:02:54.310 later hear God's word and become a Christian. Her name 0:02:54.310 --> 0:02:57.739 was pinky, and she is a delight to this day 0:02:57.740 --> 0:02:59.900 and to this day. Some day, somehow, I want to 0:02:59.900 --> 0:03:01.820 be like her, you know. I talk to her on 0:03:01.820 --> 0:03:04.420 the phone two days ago. She lives in London, Kentucky, 0:03:04.620 --> 0:03:07.179 and many of you know, you know, the big twister 0:03:07.180 --> 0:03:10.579 went through there. And houses in her neighborhood are demolished. 0:03:10.740 --> 0:03:14.139 And as I called her, I just called. Are you okay? Oh. Oh, yeah. 0:03:14.460 --> 0:03:17.579 We're out cleaning up. We're just helping people and. Oh, 0:03:17.620 --> 0:03:20.459 it's so sad. You know, they've lost their homes and 0:03:20.460 --> 0:03:23.260 this and that. And her attitude was like, you know, 0:03:23.300 --> 0:03:25.700 I'm sure the Lord's going to use this for for good. 0:03:25.740 --> 0:03:28.340 And these people are hurting and we're helping them clean 0:03:28.340 --> 0:03:31.419 up now. And anyway, those are the two people that 0:03:31.419 --> 0:03:33.900 come to my mind that I don't have to be 0:03:33.900 --> 0:03:37.700 in their presence for more than about, uh 60s. That 0:03:37.700 --> 0:03:39.180 my countenance is raised. 0:03:40.580 --> 0:03:43.180 Well that's great. Now, Rick, you mentioned he had a 0:03:43.180 --> 0:03:44.940 heart attack. Is he still with us? 0:03:46.100 --> 0:03:49.220 It was, uh, actually, I was speaking at the Cove. 0:03:49.300 --> 0:03:52.020 Gary and I got a text from his wife, and 0:03:52.020 --> 0:03:55.370 he went up to play golf. He had sleep apnea 0:03:55.370 --> 0:03:57.250 and they're not sure. But he was up in the 0:03:57.290 --> 0:03:59.850 Tahoe area and he went to sleep and he never 0:03:59.850 --> 0:04:03.690 woke up. Was only 60 years old and, um, just 0:04:03.690 --> 0:04:08.530 probably one of the heart most hard hitting losses, you know, 0:04:08.570 --> 0:04:12.530 other than family. Just someone so full of life and 0:04:12.530 --> 0:04:15.210 so unexplainable. Went to sleep and never woke up. 0:04:15.610 --> 0:04:16.970 And that's always hard. 0:04:17.290 --> 0:04:21.290 Isn't it interesting that I. I bring about such a 0:04:21.330 --> 0:04:24.969 sad situation when we're going to talk about joy, but 0:04:25.050 --> 0:04:28.690 it also there's something to it to think that that's 0:04:28.690 --> 0:04:32.010 a reality. I mean, I mean Rick's in heaven and yeah, 0:04:32.050 --> 0:04:36.049 it's it's again, it's my first moments are I cried. 0:04:36.089 --> 0:04:39.250 I mean, I really, really cried at the loss. But 0:04:39.250 --> 0:04:42.930 the perspective which we're going to talk about was he 0:04:42.930 --> 0:04:46.330 had some big, big challenges in his life. His oldest 0:04:46.330 --> 0:04:50.210 son had some real mental bipolar type issues, and in 0:04:50.210 --> 0:04:53.650 a moment of weakness about three years earlier, committed suicide. 0:04:54.130 --> 0:04:56.130 And so he was joyful, but he carried a lot 0:04:56.170 --> 0:04:59.770 of pain. His son was a genuine believer. And he's 0:04:59.770 --> 0:05:04.169 reunited and, you know, again through one lens, my sorrow, 0:05:04.210 --> 0:05:08.850 through another lens. In God's kindness. He's reunited with his son. 0:05:09.570 --> 0:05:12.130 So much of joy is about how you look at 0:05:12.130 --> 0:05:17.370 life and the grace to have the perspective that doesn't 0:05:17.370 --> 0:05:20.010 just live with the up and down of circumstance. 0:05:20.050 --> 0:05:23.650 Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the scriptures say God takes 0:05:23.650 --> 0:05:27.489 pleasure in the death of his saints. Also says God 0:05:27.490 --> 0:05:32.610 does not rejoice and is never happy when a sinner dies. So, well, 0:05:32.610 --> 0:05:36.650 let's talk about joy. People often talk about happiness and 0:05:36.650 --> 0:05:40.490 joy in the same framework. But they're quite different, aren't they? 0:05:41.010 --> 0:05:44.930 Yeah they are. You know, happiness comes from happenings, right? 0:05:44.970 --> 0:05:49.370 You know, when things are happening. Good. We're we're happy. 0:05:49.410 --> 0:05:51.050 You know, it's great. I mean, and I think, by 0:05:51.050 --> 0:05:53.040 the way, I think it's a really wonderful thing. And 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.559 in many ways, I think the Lord rejoices when we're happy. 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.640 You know, we have a baby. We're happy if you're 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.000 an adult. I just went to a graduation of a granddaughter. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.680 I was happy she graduated. I mean, uh, when good 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.520 things happen to us, we're happy. But, uh, happenings can 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:14.680 also be very negative. And for most people, happiness rolls 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.880 up and down. With the economy's up, the economy's down. 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.360 Health is up, health is down. Relationships are good. Relationships 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.719 are bad. So happiness sort of travels on the seas 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:29.560 of of circumstances where joy is the byproduct of a 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:36.200 relationship with Jesus, whereby from within there is a perspective 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.920 and an emotion and a mindset. It doesn't mean that 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.080 things are wonderful. It doesn't mean that circumstances are great. 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.080 But there is an abiding, uh, holding up of your 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.270 heart and your life and a connection with God that 0:06:50.270 --> 0:06:54.150 can bring joy. It was for the joy set before him. 0:06:55.150 --> 0:06:57.750 Jesus endured the cross. So even in the midst of 0:06:57.750 --> 0:07:05.070 those excruciating pain, difficulty and terrible circumstance, personally, we really 0:07:05.070 --> 0:07:08.029 can experience joy. But it's supernatural. 0:07:08.470 --> 0:07:12.670 Yeah. Yeah. Well, was there a specific life experience that 0:07:12.670 --> 0:07:15.550 prompted you to begin to explore the topic of joy 0:07:15.550 --> 0:07:16.670 and then write this book? 0:07:17.230 --> 0:07:22.830 There really was Gary. I, um, probably seven years ago, I, uh, 0:07:23.110 --> 0:07:27.790 I've always been pretty athletic and working out and even even, 0:07:27.990 --> 0:07:30.790 like 60, 61, I was playing full court basketball with 0:07:30.790 --> 0:07:33.910 college guys. And I reached as a guy, crossed over 0:07:33.910 --> 0:07:36.470 and I felt electrical shock go down my leg. And, 0:07:36.510 --> 0:07:38.950 I mean, I just couldn't couldn't move. And I thought, boy, 0:07:38.950 --> 0:07:42.750 I'm done. And I'd herniated a disc about ten years earlier. 0:07:43.070 --> 0:07:46.590 But this was different. And that started a journey of 0:07:47.030 --> 0:07:50.429 back issues that were like I'd never experienced. And I, 0:07:50.470 --> 0:07:53.110 you know, for the next two years I would be 0:07:53.110 --> 0:07:57.350 on ice every 20 minutes, almost 24 over seven. I 0:07:57.390 --> 0:08:00.750 kept pastoring, and because of technology, I could do like 0:08:00.750 --> 0:08:03.190 one message out of 3 or 4 and they would 0:08:03.190 --> 0:08:06.070 film it on this huge screen. I was laying on 0:08:06.110 --> 0:08:09.270 the on a table because I couldn't sit, because it 0:08:09.270 --> 0:08:12.390 was painful. I couldn't stand because it was painful. Um, 0:08:12.670 --> 0:08:15.590 it was I did whatever kind of treatment you could 0:08:15.590 --> 0:08:18.790 possibly do, and for two years, the just the pain, 0:08:18.790 --> 0:08:21.030 it would wear you down, wear you down. And eventually 0:08:21.030 --> 0:08:24.950 I had a major surgery, and they bolted a couple 0:08:24.990 --> 0:08:28.390 of my vertebrae together and fused them. And that brought 0:08:28.390 --> 0:08:31.910 some relief. And then, uh, two and a half years later, 0:08:32.230 --> 0:08:36.350 the above and below, where they bolted my back, it broke. 0:08:36.550 --> 0:08:39.709 And I had emergency surgery and the pain, they took 0:08:39.710 --> 0:08:41.270 me to the emergency room and must have given me 0:08:41.270 --> 0:08:44.030 something really strong. It's the first time in my life, Gary, 0:08:44.030 --> 0:08:47.819 I would say, if someone would have offered to shoot me. 0:08:47.820 --> 0:08:50.140 I would have said, just do it. It's a level 0:08:50.140 --> 0:08:53.100 I have never experienced and I mean insincerity. I don't 0:08:53.100 --> 0:08:56.020 mean that much as a metaphor and nothing touched it. 0:08:56.020 --> 0:08:57.780 I mean, they gave me 2 or 3 pain pills 0:08:57.780 --> 0:09:01.420 and nothing touched it. And then the rehab from all 0:09:01.420 --> 0:09:03.660 of that. And then after all that, you know, it's 0:09:03.660 --> 0:09:07.300 months and months and months. And so, you know, it's 0:09:07.300 --> 0:09:10.340 like you're into between before the first surgeries, then the 0:09:10.340 --> 0:09:13.180 surgeries and later surgeries and then living with pain all 0:09:13.179 --> 0:09:16.060 the time. I probably had about six years under my 0:09:16.059 --> 0:09:21.700 belt of really, really, really hurting. And, uh, it was 0:09:21.700 --> 0:09:23.700 near the end of the rehab. And, you know, I 0:09:23.700 --> 0:09:26.900 was walking again and doing, you know, some stuff. And 0:09:27.100 --> 0:09:30.220 I was sitting on the hearth. And my wife, she's 0:09:30.220 --> 0:09:34.500 really very godly, uh, very sweet, but she's also very direct. 0:09:35.100 --> 0:09:36.660 And she looked at me and, you know, I got 0:09:36.660 --> 0:09:39.140 up and I moaned and groaned a second and she goes, 0:09:39.179 --> 0:09:40.900 could you could you just stay there for a minute? 0:09:40.900 --> 0:09:43.660 I said, well, sure, honey. And she looked at me 0:09:43.660 --> 0:09:46.170 with those eyes like, I don't want to offend you 0:09:46.170 --> 0:09:48.490 and you know I love you, but can I tell 0:09:48.490 --> 0:09:51.330 you something? I said, well, sure. She looked at me 0:09:51.330 --> 0:09:56.250 and said, do you realize how negative you've become? And 0:09:56.250 --> 0:09:59.850 my first response was, oh no, no, no. You know, hey, 0:09:59.890 --> 0:10:02.290 it just really hurts. And and then she said, Chip, 0:10:02.290 --> 0:10:05.130 when you get up, you groan. Everywhere we go, people 0:10:05.130 --> 0:10:07.490 ask about your back. You tell them about this, you 0:10:07.490 --> 0:10:10.410 tell them about that. And the lens that you look at, 0:10:10.450 --> 0:10:13.010 I mean, it's it can be sunny and all you 0:10:13.010 --> 0:10:15.690 see is clouds. You've you have been one of the 0:10:15.690 --> 0:10:19.410 most positive people at the time. We lived together and 0:10:19.410 --> 0:10:22.650 been married for 40 years. It's 46 now. And she 0:10:22.650 --> 0:10:25.810 just said, honey, I want to tell you, you you know, 0:10:25.850 --> 0:10:29.690 you I think you do do well in larger public places, 0:10:29.690 --> 0:10:34.610 but you're you're becoming a very negative person. And I boy, 0:10:34.610 --> 0:10:37.010 I took that to heart. And as in the in 0:10:37.050 --> 0:10:40.929 the kindness and providence of God, I was scheduled to, uh, 0:10:40.929 --> 0:10:43.890 do one of those yearly things at the Billy Graham center, 0:10:44.610 --> 0:10:47.130 and was praying about, you know, what? What should I 0:10:47.170 --> 0:10:49.170 teach on? And, you know, I thought, you know, I'd 0:10:49.170 --> 0:10:52.170 like to do something to build a rhythm. And I 0:10:52.210 --> 0:10:56.050 so it was like I started studying Philippians chapter one 0:10:56.570 --> 0:10:59.929 and I thought, forget the forget teaching anybody else, Lord, 0:10:59.929 --> 0:11:03.130 this is for me. And I begin to study this passage. 0:11:03.130 --> 0:11:08.130 And I saw, here's a man living with imminent death 0:11:08.130 --> 0:11:12.050 and uncertainty and in prison, and this book is filled 0:11:12.050 --> 0:11:15.130 with joy. And what I saw was it wasn't about 0:11:15.130 --> 0:11:19.330 trying hard to have joy. There were principles in this 0:11:19.330 --> 0:11:22.890 first chapter that literally I had to go into training. 0:11:22.890 --> 0:11:24.929 I literally we can talk about it as we go. 0:11:24.970 --> 0:11:28.170 I mean, I begin to write down on some cards, 0:11:28.490 --> 0:11:33.370 here's your current thinking, here's what you've learned, here's the process. 0:11:33.490 --> 0:11:36.810 And I literally went into training and would read every morning, 0:11:36.809 --> 0:11:40.250 every night. And then I taught that and it it 0:11:40.290 --> 0:11:43.000 turned my life around. And it also had a huge 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.679 impact on other people. And as a result of that, 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.360 it was like, you know, people are struggling with mental 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.240 issues and anxiety and discouragement. Um, and so I was 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.199 asked to make it a book. And so now it's 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:56.440 a book. I choose joy. 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:00.079 Well, well, I think any of our listeners who have 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.000 ever had back pain, leg pain and all of that, 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.439 they're identifying with what you're saying. And if there's joy 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:10.360 in that situation, they want it. So glad you're with 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.880 us today and glad you wrote this book. You talked 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:17.280 about the first chapter of Philippians and how that impacted 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.760 you on this, this emphasis on joy when you were 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.480 going through a lot, a lot of pain. So tell 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.800 us why that passage is crucial to the idea of 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:26.760 choosing joy. 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.200 Well, as I read it, I begin to walk through it. 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.720 And for those not familiar with the passage, it opens 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.679 up where you know Paul and Timothy, a normal introduction. 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:38.720 He's writing in response to a gift that they give him. 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.150 When a church member named Name Epaphroditus brought a financial gift. 0:12:42.670 --> 0:12:45.230 If you're familiar with prisons in the day, they didn't 0:12:45.230 --> 0:12:47.670 feed you. If your friends didn't bring you food, you 0:12:47.670 --> 0:12:50.550 would starve. And so they gave a financial gift, and 0:12:50.550 --> 0:12:53.470 he's writing to thank him. And he's also aware that 0:12:53.470 --> 0:12:57.110 there's a few external issues and some conflict and some things. 0:12:57.110 --> 0:12:59.510 But he wants to really thank him. And so, you know, 0:12:59.550 --> 0:13:04.390 imagine being chained to a guard new guard every six hours. 0:13:04.390 --> 0:13:08.230 You're in a Roman prison as it opens up after 0:13:08.230 --> 0:13:10.709 praying for them and saying, he goes, I thank my 0:13:10.710 --> 0:13:14.270 God and all my remembrance of you all, always offering 0:13:14.270 --> 0:13:17.590 prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all. 0:13:17.870 --> 0:13:20.830 And then he goes on and prays a very specific prayer. 0:13:21.110 --> 0:13:24.670 But that struck me. Okay, wait a second. You're chained. 0:13:24.710 --> 0:13:28.150 You're in prison. We'll learn later in the chapter, you 0:13:28.190 --> 0:13:32.510 may be executed and you're praying with joy. And then I, 0:13:32.510 --> 0:13:34.750 then I notice the second thing is, is that his 0:13:34.750 --> 0:13:38.630 focus first is upward, and then it's outward on other people. 0:13:39.110 --> 0:13:43.190 And what I saw from that, Gary was, you know, 0:13:43.230 --> 0:13:46.429 it's yes, that was what he specifically did. But but 0:13:46.429 --> 0:13:49.270 there's a bit of a principle here. When I found 0:13:49.270 --> 0:13:53.709 myself really discouraged and down and negative, what I, what 0:13:53.710 --> 0:13:59.110 I realized was my focus was on me, my circumstances, 0:13:59.270 --> 0:14:03.429 what I was experiencing when Paul was in terrible circumstances. 0:14:03.429 --> 0:14:07.790 His focus was twofold. It was upward. He's praying, but 0:14:07.790 --> 0:14:10.030 he's praying with joy, and it was outward. He was 0:14:10.030 --> 0:14:13.870 concerned about that. Them. So he prays that God will 0:14:13.870 --> 0:14:16.670 reveal his love to them. And he prays that they 0:14:16.670 --> 0:14:19.550 would have wisdom and understanding and and that they could 0:14:19.550 --> 0:14:21.590 approve the things that are excellent so they could live 0:14:21.590 --> 0:14:24.270 this kind of life. And so the first chapter, the 0:14:24.270 --> 0:14:27.030 first section is I begin to say, you know what? 0:14:27.030 --> 0:14:29.790 I think there's a question I could start asking myself. 0:14:30.030 --> 0:14:32.630 And the first one would be Chip, where's your focus? 0:14:32.910 --> 0:14:36.030 The moment I start feeling down, discouraged, the moment I 0:14:36.070 --> 0:14:39.100 hear negative things coming out of my mouth. Ask, where's 0:14:39.100 --> 0:14:43.220 your focus? Is it up and out or is it 0:14:43.220 --> 0:14:47.140 on yourself? Gary, if I can just be very candid because, 0:14:47.180 --> 0:14:51.380 you know, uh, I had to catch myself 30, 40, 0:14:51.420 --> 0:14:54.420 50 times a day early on. I would hear me 0:14:54.460 --> 0:14:57.740 say something that was negative. Where's your focus? Me? Uh, 0:14:57.740 --> 0:14:59.660 I my my mind. You know, I got where it 0:14:59.660 --> 0:15:02.100 wouldn't come out of my mouth. And then I would 0:15:02.100 --> 0:15:04.780 start looking at a situation or my mind start thinking. 0:15:05.100 --> 0:15:08.740 And it would be like negative. Negative. Okay. Where's your focus? Me? 0:15:09.220 --> 0:15:14.260 And so I begin to just ask that one question. Chip, 0:15:14.260 --> 0:15:18.020 where's your focus? Is it upward and outward or is 0:15:18.020 --> 0:15:20.900 it inward. And so then after I went through the 0:15:20.900 --> 0:15:25.460 entire chapter, what I saw was from that truth, there 0:15:25.460 --> 0:15:29.420 were like four questions that I started to ask myself 0:15:29.740 --> 0:15:33.620 that that each changed my perspective. And the second section, 0:15:33.620 --> 0:15:36.130 as he talked his circumstances, he says, have turned out 0:15:36.130 --> 0:15:39.890 for the greater progress of the gospel. The question there was, 0:15:39.890 --> 0:15:42.450 what's my purpose? In other words, he thought what his 0:15:42.450 --> 0:15:45.090 purpose was to honor and serve God. And hey! The 0:15:45.130 --> 0:15:47.850 gospel is going forward, even though my personal life is 0:15:47.850 --> 0:15:51.130 going downward. Paul says, and this I rejoice. And what 0:15:51.130 --> 0:15:54.650 I realized was, okay, if I look at my life 0:15:54.650 --> 0:15:58.530 through the lens of how things only impact me, I'm 0:15:58.570 --> 0:16:00.490 not going to have a lot of joy. But if 0:16:00.490 --> 0:16:02.650 I can look at whatever's happening to my life through 0:16:02.650 --> 0:16:06.170 the lens of is this fulfilling God's purpose? How? How 0:16:06.170 --> 0:16:09.290 is God using this to reach people? How is God 0:16:09.290 --> 0:16:12.130 using this to build up other believers? How is God 0:16:12.130 --> 0:16:15.090 using this to make me more like Jesus? So I 0:16:15.090 --> 0:16:17.890 started asking. Those were the first two questions. Where's my 0:16:17.890 --> 0:16:22.010 focus and what's your purpose? That created a little, I guess, 0:16:22.010 --> 0:16:25.730 what I would call a formula. And so I wrote 0:16:25.730 --> 0:16:28.090 that on a, on a separate card and it was 0:16:28.090 --> 0:16:32.770 the letter C plus the letter P equals E. Circumstances 0:16:32.770 --> 0:16:37.050 plus my perspective equals my experience. And what I realized 0:16:37.050 --> 0:16:40.970 was I have very little control over most of my circumstance. 0:16:41.250 --> 0:16:45.690 I have 100% control over my p perspective. You know, 0:16:45.730 --> 0:16:48.690 like everything in life, you see people who have terrible 0:16:48.690 --> 0:16:52.170 circumstances and they have amazing attitudes and joy, and other 0:16:52.170 --> 0:16:56.810 people have not even to bad circumstances and life stinks. 0:16:57.090 --> 0:17:01.050 So that was the key. Realizing you have to change 0:17:01.050 --> 0:17:04.210 your perspective on life and by God's grace, you can 0:17:04.210 --> 0:17:06.690 do that as you begin to follow Paul's example. 0:17:07.290 --> 0:17:10.370 Well, that's powerful. And I'm sitting here thinking about those 0:17:10.369 --> 0:17:14.930 who are going through particularly ongoing pain like you described 0:17:14.930 --> 0:17:18.210 in your own life there for so long, because you're 0:17:18.210 --> 0:17:21.850 exactly right. The tendency is we're thinking about ourselves and 0:17:21.850 --> 0:17:25.369 focusing on ourselves and our situation. And because the circumstances 0:17:25.369 --> 0:17:28.930 are bad, you know, we we have a down, negative 0:17:28.930 --> 0:17:33.800 attitude so. Well. So so those two questions are where 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.879 is your focus? Is it on myself and my situation, 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.399 or am I? Is it on God looking up to 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.960 God and looking outward to other people? And then what's 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.320 my purpose? How can God use this in a positive way, 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.080 which he was? I mean, Paul wrote the whole letter 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.760 in that situation. The letter of Philippians. So yeah. Well, 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:58.479 you have two other questions that you discussed also. The 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.800 next one is, is where is your hope? Why is 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:03.120 that question important? 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.960 Well, you know, if my hope is in only this 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.000 life or in a person or in a job, or 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.480 when I can buy a house or when I get better, 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:17.439 those things, I have no guarantees on them. But if 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.720 my hope is something that can never change. And so, 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.520 you know, in verses 12 through 18, Paul says, you know, 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.120 this has turned out for the greater progress of the gospel. 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.360 The believers are growing. And again, he goes, you know 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:35.550 something As much as people are using these circumstances to 0:18:35.590 --> 0:18:38.670 undermine my ministry. Guess what? God's using it to get 0:18:38.670 --> 0:18:41.629 the gospel out. And then he gets into his personal life, 0:18:41.630 --> 0:18:45.030 beginning in verse 19, and he doesn't know whether he's 0:18:45.030 --> 0:18:48.110 going to live or die. Gary. And he goes, well, 0:18:48.230 --> 0:18:50.590 you know, I'm not sure I may be executed. I 0:18:50.590 --> 0:18:53.710 may be pardoned, I don't know. And then he he 0:18:53.710 --> 0:18:57.230 talks about this dilemma of, you know, it's more profitable 0:18:57.230 --> 0:19:00.149 if I stay with regard to you. Right. You know, 0:19:00.190 --> 0:19:03.030 I can keep ministering to you. It's more profitable to 0:19:03.030 --> 0:19:05.310 me because to be absent from the body is to 0:19:05.310 --> 0:19:07.550 be present with the Lord. So he looks at death 0:19:07.550 --> 0:19:09.990 in a very different way than than most of us do, 0:19:10.070 --> 0:19:13.350 even as Christians. That would be great. And then he 0:19:13.350 --> 0:19:16.790 concludes that my sense, you know, we just get this 0:19:16.790 --> 0:19:19.310 idea of the prompting of God's Spirit. My sense is, 0:19:19.590 --> 0:19:22.350 God's going to pardon me because your faith may need 0:19:22.350 --> 0:19:25.510 more encouragement, and I need to minister for a longer 0:19:25.510 --> 0:19:28.910 period with you. But what I realized was what he 0:19:28.910 --> 0:19:32.590 does in that what freed him from the fear of death? 0:19:32.590 --> 0:19:35.470 What freed him from, you know, how is everything going 0:19:35.510 --> 0:19:38.869 to turn out? And being paralyzed by anxiety? What freed 0:19:38.869 --> 0:19:42.469 him was his hope was not in how things turned out. 0:19:43.230 --> 0:19:48.110 His hope was in the absolute certainty that the moment 0:19:48.109 --> 0:19:50.670 he would die, that he would be in the presence 0:19:50.670 --> 0:19:54.790 of Christ. And if that was not the plan, his 0:19:54.790 --> 0:19:59.270 hope was in the goodness, the kindness, the wisdom, and 0:19:59.270 --> 0:20:02.429 the sovereignty of God. That a good God would only 0:20:02.430 --> 0:20:05.830 allow good things for the long term to bring about 0:20:05.830 --> 0:20:09.110 the highest and best results for the most people. And 0:20:09.109 --> 0:20:13.150 so his hope wasn't in, uh, something that was temporal. 0:20:13.190 --> 0:20:16.510 He had an eternal perspective that changed his whole focus. 0:20:17.109 --> 0:20:19.830 You know, you tell that that and reminds me of 0:20:19.830 --> 0:20:22.830 an account from my son when he was still single. 0:20:22.869 --> 0:20:25.630 He was working in Prague, in the Czech Republic. But 0:20:25.630 --> 0:20:28.700 every weekend he would go out to other places, other cities, 0:20:28.700 --> 0:20:31.220 and sometimes other countries, and take his guitar and go 0:20:31.220 --> 0:20:34.540 to the center of town, start playing his guitar and 0:20:34.780 --> 0:20:38.020 singing some secular songs. And then he moved to Christian songs, 0:20:38.020 --> 0:20:40.540 and then he'd start talking to the young people that 0:20:40.540 --> 0:20:42.540 showed up. And my wife said to him when he 0:20:42.540 --> 0:20:46.020 was at home visiting one time, she said, Derek, I'm concerned, son, 0:20:46.340 --> 0:20:49.020 you go out there, nobody knows where you are. You're 0:20:49.020 --> 0:20:53.260 by yourself. If something happened to you, we wouldn't even 0:20:53.260 --> 0:20:56.739 know about it. And he said, well, mom, what's the 0:20:56.740 --> 0:20:59.620 worst thing that could happen to me? I could get 0:20:59.619 --> 0:21:02.659 killed and I would go to heaven. A few years 0:21:02.660 --> 0:21:06.820 before you do. What is so bad about that, mom? Wow. 0:21:07.100 --> 0:21:07.540 Wow. 0:21:08.820 --> 0:21:13.580 And that's when my wife released him to God. But, 0:21:13.619 --> 0:21:15.580 you know, he had that same thing. To be absent 0:21:15.580 --> 0:21:17.619 from the body. To be present with the Lord. What's 0:21:17.619 --> 0:21:18.619 so bad about that? 0:21:18.660 --> 0:21:24.300 So part of our our lack of having that perspective is, 0:21:24.300 --> 0:21:27.050 I think, heaven. Maybe there's not a whole lot of 0:21:27.050 --> 0:21:29.770 teaching on it, or maybe there is some teaching, but 0:21:29.770 --> 0:21:33.410 I think the average believer doesn't really look forward to having, 0:21:33.410 --> 0:21:35.210 you know, you think there's a there's a reward for 0:21:35.210 --> 0:21:38.650 those that are longing for his appearing. But but I think, 0:21:38.850 --> 0:21:41.090 you know, a picture of heaven that is maybe a 0:21:41.090 --> 0:21:44.090 bit more popular that somehow we're going to be in a, 0:21:44.130 --> 0:21:47.209 you know, eternal worship service or there's nothing to do or, 0:21:47.410 --> 0:21:49.370 you know, we're going to float around with angels and 0:21:49.369 --> 0:21:52.690 sip iced tea or sort of these ethereal pictures as 0:21:52.690 --> 0:21:57.010 opposed to a new heaven, a new earth, a culture, 0:21:57.010 --> 0:22:00.890 a life that work perfect environment. You know, it's it's 0:22:00.890 --> 0:22:05.530 Eden on steroids for good and the greatest and deepest 0:22:05.530 --> 0:22:10.010 things that will ever experience. I think the Apostle Paul, obviously, 0:22:10.369 --> 0:22:12.369 none of us know what his trip to the third 0:22:12.369 --> 0:22:14.970 heaven was or what he saw, but I think it's 0:22:14.970 --> 0:22:19.570 pretty obvious that he had such a clarity that there 0:22:19.570 --> 0:22:24.570 is nothing better ever, and that if that was the outcome, uh, 0:22:24.609 --> 0:22:28.530 a lot like your son's perspective is that frees people 0:22:28.570 --> 0:22:30.370 from from anxiety and fear. 0:22:30.730 --> 0:22:35.410 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so there's another question that 0:22:35.410 --> 0:22:38.369 you asked. First of all, you ask yourself where where's 0:22:38.369 --> 0:22:42.450 my focus on myself, my situation, my pain, my trouble? 0:22:42.730 --> 0:22:45.810 Or is it on God and on other people? And 0:22:45.810 --> 0:22:48.530 then the question, what's my purpose, you know, and what's 0:22:48.570 --> 0:22:51.970 God's purpose in all of this? And then where's my hope? 0:22:52.210 --> 0:22:56.170 You know, in circumstances or in God. And then the 0:22:56.170 --> 0:23:01.010 fourth question you were asking yourself is what are your expectations? 0:23:01.570 --> 0:23:02.450 Talk about that. 0:23:03.210 --> 0:23:05.330 That was I got to the end of the chapter 0:23:05.330 --> 0:23:08.409 as I was studying. And in verse 27, you know, 0:23:08.450 --> 0:23:10.970 he still doesn't know if he's going to live or die. 0:23:10.970 --> 0:23:13.129 But he says, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of 0:23:13.130 --> 0:23:15.010 the gospel of Christ. So whether I come and see 0:23:15.010 --> 0:23:17.970 you or remain absent, I may hear of you, that 0:23:17.970 --> 0:23:20.330 you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind, 0:23:20.369 --> 0:23:23.210 striving together for the faith of the gospel. In no 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:25.359 way alarmed by your opponents, which is a sign of 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:28.399 destruction for them, but of salvation for you. And that too, 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:31.800 is from God. And then you get these last two verses, 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:34.480 and probably for years I might have skipped over these 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:37.200 a little too quickly. He says, for to you it 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:41.080 has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:45.920 in him, but also to suffer for his sake, experiencing 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:48.960 the same conflict which you saw in me and now 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:52.320 hear to be in me. And as I studied this, Gary, 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:54.600 when he gets this line, he says, for you it 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:58.119 has been granted. That word granted is the root word. 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:02.480 It's for grace. And it's literally to you, Philippian church. 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:06.560 God gave a grace gift and the grace gift. This 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:10.000 is a privilege. This is this is something that's good. 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:14.680 It's been granted to you not only to believe, but 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:19.520 also to suffer for his sake. And I don't know 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:21.639 that I meet a lot of Christians and I don't 0:24:21.790 --> 0:24:26.149 know that personally. You meet even a theology of people 0:24:26.150 --> 0:24:30.150 who are saying, how could suffering ever be great? And 0:24:30.150 --> 0:24:33.270 yet Paul in chapter three is going to pray. He says, 0:24:33.270 --> 0:24:36.109 I want to know him, and I want to know 0:24:36.109 --> 0:24:40.070 the intimacy and the fellowship of his suffering. And I 0:24:40.070 --> 0:24:44.470 think we do almost anything possible to avoid suffering. And 0:24:44.470 --> 0:24:48.350 don't get me wrong, there's some perverted theology of, you know, 0:24:48.470 --> 0:24:50.910 you know, walking on hands and knees over a glass 0:24:50.910 --> 0:24:53.390 to suffer for Jesus. And we we've seen, you know, 0:24:53.430 --> 0:24:56.109 bizarre things. But the fact of the matter is, is 0:24:56.109 --> 0:24:58.710 I think we live in a culture that we try 0:24:58.750 --> 0:25:02.150 to avoid suffering of any kind at all cost. 0:25:06.590 --> 0:25:09.350 Thanks for joining us for the Building Relationships with Doctor 0:25:09.350 --> 0:25:12.390 Gary Chapman podcast. He's the author of the New York 0:25:12.390 --> 0:25:16.109 Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Our guest today 0:25:16.109 --> 0:25:19.230 is author and speaker Chip Ingram. You hear him on 0:25:19.230 --> 0:25:22.140 the program living on the edge, and we're talking about 0:25:22.140 --> 0:25:26.060 his book, I choose Joy. Change your perspective. Change your life. 0:25:26.300 --> 0:25:30.140 Find out more at Five Love languages.com. Again, go to 0:25:30.180 --> 0:25:32.179 five Love languages.com. 0:25:34.100 --> 0:25:36.540 In our last segment, Chip and Gary were talking about 0:25:36.540 --> 0:25:39.940 how we try in this culture to avoid suffering at 0:25:39.940 --> 0:25:43.020 all costs. And let's pick up right there. 0:25:43.940 --> 0:25:50.580 Any pain, any difficulty, any struggle, whether it's physical, material, psychological, 0:25:50.580 --> 0:25:54.140 there's a pill. There's a quick solution for it. And 0:25:54.140 --> 0:25:58.179 I think that has seeped so into not just the 0:25:58.180 --> 0:26:03.500 culture but into the Christian community, where when there's a challenge, well, God, 0:26:03.500 --> 0:26:05.820 where are you? Or what's wrong? Or did I do 0:26:05.820 --> 0:26:09.820 something wrong as opposed to part of life in a 0:26:09.820 --> 0:26:13.900 fallen world? As we live in this flesh, God has 0:26:13.900 --> 0:26:18.660 granted us, we will believe, but also we will suffer. 0:26:19.020 --> 0:26:22.899 And so. But if our expectations are, we should never suffer. 0:26:22.940 --> 0:26:25.899 Or I must have done something terrible if I suffered, 0:26:25.900 --> 0:26:30.060 or God is not good if I've suffered. That perspective 0:26:30.380 --> 0:26:34.260 will cause people to do a nosedive emotionally and mentally, 0:26:34.260 --> 0:26:39.980 and sometimes well beyond. As opposed to oh, I joke, 0:26:40.020 --> 0:26:42.340 if you forgive me, I'm a I'm a sports guy. 0:26:42.380 --> 0:26:45.580 And so I've got a good buddy who, um, who's 0:26:45.580 --> 0:26:48.380 a tight end played pro football. And he was there's 0:26:48.380 --> 0:26:50.220 a number of years ago and he since has really 0:26:50.220 --> 0:26:52.419 made a lot of progress. But he was really struggling 0:26:52.420 --> 0:26:55.060 in his marriage and he said, hey, can we talk? 0:26:55.100 --> 0:26:57.660 You know, let's go. Let's go play nine holes of golf. 0:26:57.660 --> 0:27:00.140 And I want to talk. And so we get first 0:27:00.140 --> 0:27:01.820 3 or 4 holes, and I listen to all the 0:27:01.820 --> 0:27:03.699 struggles and this and that and this and that and 0:27:03.700 --> 0:27:05.580 this and that. And we get to about hole number four. 0:27:05.700 --> 0:27:07.459 And finally he just looks at me and hands on 0:27:07.460 --> 0:27:10.060 his hips and he goes, you know, just no matter 0:27:10.060 --> 0:27:11.980 how hard I work there's something else to work on, 0:27:11.980 --> 0:27:13.860 something else to work on, something else to work on. 0:27:13.859 --> 0:27:17.100 He goes, Chip, I don't know. Is it worth it? 0:27:17.170 --> 0:27:20.050 This marriage is way too hard. Is it always going 0:27:20.090 --> 0:27:23.170 to be this hard? It doesn't seem fair. And in 0:27:23.170 --> 0:27:27.250 a moment of maybe love or a little sadistic humor, 0:27:27.530 --> 0:27:30.650 I said, now, can I ask you a question? He said, well, sure. 0:27:30.970 --> 0:27:33.290 I said, now, you played high school football, right? And 0:27:33.290 --> 0:27:35.250 it was in a state place where it was really hot. 0:27:35.290 --> 0:27:38.370 I said, do you remember those two a day practices? Oh, man, 0:27:38.450 --> 0:27:41.290 those were murder. And then you play college football, right? Oh, man. 0:27:41.330 --> 0:27:43.530 Do you remember those two a day practices? Yeah. Remember 0:27:43.530 --> 0:27:47.650 lifting weights? Yeah. Oh, excruciating. And then you played football, right? Yeah, right. 0:27:47.690 --> 0:27:49.890 He goes. Now you're a tight end. Correct. Okay, so 0:27:49.890 --> 0:27:51.889 you you do an end route and you come across 0:27:51.890 --> 0:27:54.369 the middle and you catch the ball. And a linebacker, 0:27:54.410 --> 0:27:57.890 I mean, puts his helmet right in your chest. Do 0:27:57.890 --> 0:27:59.490 you get up and put your hands on your hip 0:27:59.490 --> 0:28:04.810 and go, that hurts. That's not fair, boy. That's not nice. 0:28:04.930 --> 0:28:08.609 And he kind of smiled. So I said, so you're 0:28:08.609 --> 0:28:11.609 telling me that you were willing to batter your body, 0:28:11.650 --> 0:28:18.200 work like crazy, endure incredible pain, Sweat beyond belief. Lift weights. 0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:20.879 Almost 24 over seven so that you could catch a 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:24.200 football and have your career go forward. But you're telling 0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:26.359 me when it gets really hard to learn how to 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:29.919 love your wife and be other centered, that it's too hard? 0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:34.240 And he looked at me and kind of shook his head. 0:28:34.520 --> 0:28:37.600 And what I said is, here's the key. What are 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:42.160 your expectations? You expected two days to be hard. You 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:44.520 expected when you caught the ball, you were going to 0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:48.960 get hit and really hard. And so your mental outlook 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:52.280 and you prepared yourself. You want to have a great marriage. 0:28:52.280 --> 0:28:54.280 You want to be a great father. You want to 0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:58.200 be a great Christian. Guess what? What you can expect 0:28:58.200 --> 0:29:01.360 is there's spiritual opposition you can expect. It's going to 0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:04.400 be challenging. You can expect that just like you don't 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:07.320 respond right all the time. Your mate's not going to. 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:09.120 No matter how much you love your kids, they're going 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:12.040 to make some choices. It'll break your heart. What do 0:29:12.040 --> 0:29:15.719 you expect when you shift it from everything ought to 0:29:15.720 --> 0:29:18.720 be right, because I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:21.320 And if God loves me, my life should turn out 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:26.600 semi painless. That perspective will cause you to experience no 0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:30.480 joy in your life because it's a false expectation. 0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:37.440 Yeah. Wow. Oh, I'm sure our listeners are sitting there 0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:40.880 like I'm sitting there and thinking, yes, I see it, 0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:43.600 I see it, I see it. But by nature we 0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:47.000 tend to do exactly the opposite, right? Yeah. 0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:50.719 Well, you know, my wife, when she said that, you know, 0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:54.040 I wasn't saying it out loud, but, you know, I'm thinking, hey, Lord, I, 0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:56.640 you know, at the time, I've been a pastor 35 years. 0:29:56.680 --> 0:30:00.400 I mean, I've tried to be faithful, Lord, I'm, you know, 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:03.520 I'm I was, you know, giving him my little resume. 0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:07.360 And there's this unconscious thing that seeps in that if 0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:11.440 we're obedient and we do X, Y, and Z, somehow 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:16.030 God is obligated to provide, you know, x, Y, and z. 0:30:16.070 --> 0:30:20.430 Good wonderful life. And and, you know, think about it, Gary. 0:30:20.470 --> 0:30:23.190 You and I and many people in ministry, we've studied 0:30:23.190 --> 0:30:27.430 the scriptures for how many years? And yet you suddenly 0:30:27.430 --> 0:30:31.950 fall into that. And and you think of how the apostles, 0:30:31.990 --> 0:30:35.870 they love Jesus, they followed him. They they did exactly 0:30:35.870 --> 0:30:38.870 what he called them to do. And and all but one, 0:30:38.870 --> 0:30:41.710 I think, were martyred. So were they out of God's will? 0:30:42.870 --> 0:30:46.110 The Apostle Paul's perspective, you know, a parallel passage that 0:30:46.430 --> 0:30:49.430 in Romans five he tells us that, you know, we 0:30:49.430 --> 0:30:52.830 have peace with God, and we've been justified by faith 0:30:52.830 --> 0:30:55.590 and have peace with God. And we exalt and rejoice 0:30:55.590 --> 0:30:58.670 in the glory and this, this new life. And then 0:30:58.670 --> 0:31:01.670 in verse two he says, we also exult in our 0:31:01.670 --> 0:31:09.150 tribulation or our problems, our struggles, because tribulation brings about endurance, 0:31:09.390 --> 0:31:14.020 suffering through endurance and endurance, going through hard, difficult, painful times. 0:31:14.020 --> 0:31:17.220 We're never more dependent. And in that dependency, what happens 0:31:17.220 --> 0:31:20.780 is we change proven character. And as we change that 0:31:20.780 --> 0:31:23.980 proven character and seeing God work in our lives, hope 0:31:23.980 --> 0:31:27.260 is born in our heart. That hope that God is faithful, 0:31:27.260 --> 0:31:30.100 that hope of the future, that hope of heaven. And 0:31:30.100 --> 0:31:34.100 he goes and hope never disappoints because it's there's this 0:31:34.100 --> 0:31:38.660 process of difficulty and pain and struggle. And where he 0:31:38.660 --> 0:31:41.820 says then that the the love of God is poured 0:31:41.820 --> 0:31:45.260 out in our heart by the Holy Spirit. I think 0:31:45.260 --> 0:31:47.740 both of us would say, if you ask us to 0:31:47.780 --> 0:31:51.540 describe the people that know and love and emanate the 0:31:51.540 --> 0:31:54.820 presence of Jesus and are loving and kind and like 0:31:54.820 --> 0:31:58.380 someday I want to be, most all of them have 0:31:58.380 --> 0:32:03.860 been through levels of pain or difficulty or struggle or betrayal, 0:32:04.180 --> 0:32:06.540 and it's been in the midst of that, that they 0:32:06.540 --> 0:32:10.260 drew near to Jesus and experienced his love and his 0:32:10.260 --> 0:32:15.900 power that, um, that has made them because they've responded 0:32:15.900 --> 0:32:21.180 in faith and dependency. The kind of people that they are. And, um, 0:32:21.220 --> 0:32:23.540 it's part of God's I mean, part of the game 0:32:23.540 --> 0:32:26.980 plan of transformation is, yes, it's being in God's Word. Yes. 0:32:26.980 --> 0:32:30.060 It's praying. Yes. You have to be an authentic community. 0:32:30.340 --> 0:32:35.420 And yes, suffering is a part of the journey that 0:32:35.420 --> 0:32:39.100 you can expect. But the promise is not that it 0:32:39.100 --> 0:32:42.820 will be easy. The promise is I'll never leave you. 0:32:43.260 --> 0:32:46.540 I'll never forsake you, and that he'll be with us. 0:32:46.540 --> 0:32:50.180 And as he is with us, he not only can 0:32:50.180 --> 0:32:53.940 change externally the things out there, but he often does 0:32:53.940 --> 0:32:56.260 a whole lot more work in changing us. 0:32:56.940 --> 0:33:01.260 Yeah, absolutely. Chip, I'm thinking that there are people who 0:33:01.300 --> 0:33:05.380 be listening to us today and they've just lost their job, 0:33:05.700 --> 0:33:10.810 you know, and it's their livelihood. Or maybe someone who's 0:33:10.810 --> 0:33:13.650 just gone through a divorce, not a divorce they wanted, 0:33:13.650 --> 0:33:15.810 but one that was kind of forced on them. And 0:33:15.810 --> 0:33:17.810 they're sitting there. Yeah, but am I supposed to have 0:33:17.810 --> 0:33:21.010 joy in the midst of this? Now, we're not saying 0:33:21.010 --> 0:33:25.330 they should be happy, but we are saying they should 0:33:25.330 --> 0:33:27.730 have joy. Or they can have joy, right? 0:33:28.050 --> 0:33:30.490 Yes. You know, on the back of the book, I 0:33:30.530 --> 0:33:33.370 put a quote because I think it's a profound one 0:33:33.370 --> 0:33:37.170 by C.S. Lewis, and it says, Joy is the serious 0:33:37.170 --> 0:33:41.810 business of heaven. I think some writer of Christian history 0:33:41.850 --> 0:33:45.290 made an interesting remark. He said, love may have been, 0:33:45.330 --> 0:33:48.410 you know, the the commodity of the early church, but 0:33:48.410 --> 0:33:52.170 joy was their calling card. There was something about their 0:33:52.170 --> 0:33:55.610 joy in the midst of their suffering that was the 0:33:55.610 --> 0:34:00.530 greatest apologetic. And that's been true ever since. And so 0:34:01.130 --> 0:34:03.969 what I'd say to this person who's going through that 0:34:03.970 --> 0:34:07.680 and pastoring, as you and I have. There's still a 0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:09.520 lot of those people in my life right now that 0:34:09.520 --> 0:34:12.720 I'm going through some of those things with. It doesn't 0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:16.280 mean there isn't sadness and disappointment and temptations toward great 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:19.239 anger and a process and grief. So this is not 0:34:19.239 --> 0:34:22.839 about denying your emotions or acting as though you know 0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:26.240 you put on a smiley face. But this is saying, 0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:30.160 in the midst of this hurt and this pain, you stop, 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:35.120 where's my focus? And then it's upward. God praise you 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:37.799 that I don't understand it. I don't like it. It hurts, 0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:41.040 but I, I love you. You are a good and 0:34:41.040 --> 0:34:44.000 sovereign God. And so I'm going to pray for those 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:46.200 people that hurt me. I'm going to to pray for 0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:49.480 some other people that have challenges and. Okay. God, this 0:34:49.480 --> 0:34:53.680 this is so unfair. What's your purpose in it? God what? 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:57.359 As my fellow workers, see what I do as I 0:34:57.360 --> 0:35:00.919 respond to being abandoned by this person who left with 0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:03.600 another woman, or left with another man, or a business 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:06.480 partner who opted out and took all the money and 0:35:06.480 --> 0:35:09.160 no one knows where he's at. How I respond, Lord, 0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:12.760 what's your purpose in this? Yes. I'm hurt. Yes I'm mad. 0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:15.720 But as we lean in and then we can say, God, 0:35:16.120 --> 0:35:19.160 my hope is in you. And sometimes we have to 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:23.640 say that some of the deepest hurts reveal some idols 0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:26.040 in our life, some struggles in our life that God 0:35:26.080 --> 0:35:30.279 God wants to, for our good, purify and get our 0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:33.520 hope where it needs to be. And I think asking 0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:37.120 those questions, where's my hope? What did I really expect? 0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:41.280 And leaning in and just saying, Jesus, I don't like this. 0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:45.719 And I feel hurt and sad and mad and and 0:35:45.880 --> 0:35:49.760 I don't understand. And I feel confused. But I'm coming 0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:54.839 to you. Be with me. Encourage me. I have I 0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:57.880 have learned more and more to live in the Psalms. Gary, 0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:01.600 in the midst of the hardest and most difficult times. 0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:06.710 And what you realize is you're not alone, that some 0:36:06.710 --> 0:36:08.870 of the people who know God the best, it's in 0:36:08.870 --> 0:36:11.669 the midst of those that he really will meet us. 0:36:11.670 --> 0:36:15.549 And it's in that overflow. He buoys us up. That's 0:36:15.550 --> 0:36:18.270 I don't know how else to say it. And and 0:36:18.270 --> 0:36:21.790 it doesn't mean that everything's wonderful or your emotions are 0:36:21.790 --> 0:36:25.430 up all the time, but there's a sustaining joy that 0:36:25.430 --> 0:36:28.470 we can have. And it's here's the thing. It gives 0:36:28.469 --> 0:36:31.750 you strength. And that's what I want people to remember. 0:36:31.750 --> 0:36:33.790 This isn't like, well, this would be better for me, 0:36:33.790 --> 0:36:36.069 and I'll be more fulfilled and I'll choose to do 0:36:36.070 --> 0:36:37.910 these things. And I guess I should write these on 0:36:37.910 --> 0:36:40.589 these cards or get this book or whatever. No, no, no, 0:36:40.590 --> 0:36:43.630 this is this is about the joy of the Lord 0:36:43.630 --> 0:36:48.710 is our strength. Joy is I'm not a victim. Joy is. 0:36:48.870 --> 0:36:51.310 I will make it through this. I can do all 0:36:51.310 --> 0:36:54.710 things through Christ who gives me strength. Joy is he 0:36:54.710 --> 0:36:58.669 is with me always. And there's a testimony coming out 0:36:58.670 --> 0:37:02.500 of this. I will be a trophy of God's grace. 0:37:02.739 --> 0:37:06.100 And there's a setting your face like a flint, like 0:37:06.100 --> 0:37:09.020 Jesus did toward the cross. And there's a joy that 0:37:09.020 --> 0:37:13.500 boils up inside of you. That takes away that victim mentality. 0:37:13.780 --> 0:37:18.299 And when you tackle that, your whole perspective and your life, 0:37:18.700 --> 0:37:22.900 it becomes not only a great testimony, but you experience 0:37:22.940 --> 0:37:25.340 God in ways that many of us never have. 0:37:25.900 --> 0:37:28.860 So I hear you saying, among other things, it's running 0:37:28.900 --> 0:37:32.980 to God rather than running away from God or saying, 0:37:32.980 --> 0:37:35.540 why did you let this happen to me? Or it's 0:37:35.540 --> 0:37:38.740 recognizing that our hope is in him, and we want 0:37:38.739 --> 0:37:40.819 to put our faith in him every day and talk 0:37:40.820 --> 0:37:42.700 to him every day and be honest to him about 0:37:42.700 --> 0:37:43.420 our feelings. 0:37:43.460 --> 0:37:46.980 Yes. And I think I've done that. And I think 0:37:46.980 --> 0:37:48.980 what helped me from this book and why it's been 0:37:48.980 --> 0:37:52.980 so helpful is just I keep going back to as 0:37:52.980 --> 0:37:56.060 different circumstances come in my life. It's like I have 0:37:56.060 --> 0:38:01.300 this mental filter C plus P equals E, That's the circumstance. 0:38:01.300 --> 0:38:03.860 That little one or big one, a medium sized one 0:38:03.860 --> 0:38:07.180 that's negative or hard or difficult. And then I ask 0:38:07.180 --> 0:38:12.580 those questions. What for? To get that perspective. And and 0:38:12.620 --> 0:38:14.540 and what I would say to Gary is that it 0:38:14.540 --> 0:38:17.259 doesn't come naturally. You have to go into you have 0:38:17.260 --> 0:38:21.420 to retrain your brain and your mind and your expectations 0:38:21.420 --> 0:38:25.380 around what's true. People would laugh, but I mean, where's 0:38:25.380 --> 0:38:28.700 your focus, chip? What's your purpose? Chip. Where's your hope? Chip. 0:38:28.820 --> 0:38:31.580 What did you expect? And then and then underneath of 0:38:31.580 --> 0:38:33.580 it I rejoice in the Lord always. And again I 0:38:33.580 --> 0:38:36.060 say rejoice. And then I put a little smiley face 0:38:36.060 --> 0:38:39.180 on that card. I it says smile and it says, 0:38:39.219 --> 0:38:43.859 you know, lighten up, be positive, don't complain, don't seek sympathy. 0:38:43.860 --> 0:38:46.940 All of that is on one card. And to this day, 0:38:47.300 --> 0:38:50.740 it's it's on my desk right in front. So every 0:38:50.780 --> 0:38:53.700 day I stare at that to go into training to 0:38:53.739 --> 0:39:00.050 realize I can't control what happens to me. I have 100% control. 0:39:00.050 --> 0:39:02.250 By the grace of God and the power of the 0:39:02.250 --> 0:39:06.130 Holy Spirit and the strength of His Word to determine 0:39:06.130 --> 0:39:09.810 how I respond, what will be my perspective? And as 0:39:09.810 --> 0:39:13.890 my perspective goes, so goes my life. That's my hope 0:39:13.890 --> 0:39:17.370 for those people going through that hard time right now. 0:39:17.810 --> 0:39:21.770 It doesn't minimize the pain, the loss, the hurt, the 0:39:21.810 --> 0:39:25.410 sin of other people at all. That's not the message. 0:39:25.410 --> 0:39:28.890 This is not self-help. Talk yourself into, you know, a 0:39:28.890 --> 0:39:34.050 better attitude. This is seeking God's perspective in the midst 0:39:34.050 --> 0:39:37.530 of a fallen world that allows you to experience the 0:39:37.530 --> 0:39:41.690 intimacy of Jesus, that produces a supernatural joy in the 0:39:41.690 --> 0:39:46.450 midst of circumstances that appear to others as completely unbearable. 0:39:46.450 --> 0:39:47.730 And God sustains you. 0:39:48.130 --> 0:39:53.130 Yeah. Powerful. Powerful message. Well, Chip, I know that many, 0:39:53.130 --> 0:39:57.120 many Christians struggle in this area. In fact, maybe all 0:39:57.120 --> 0:39:59.440 of us struggle in this area. And, you know, I 0:39:59.480 --> 0:40:01.840 hear this often in my office, you know, if God 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:05.000 is sovereign and God is all powerful, why does he 0:40:05.000 --> 0:40:10.239 allow this hard stuff? And why did he allow Paul's imprisonment? 0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:13.319 And shouldn't he make life easier for us if he 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:18.600 really loves us? Speak. Speak to that thought. Uh, those 0:40:18.600 --> 0:40:19.920 thoughts that people have. 0:40:20.600 --> 0:40:23.240 You know, I think it touches on maybe the greatest 0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:26.040 need that we as Christians have and will ever have, 0:40:26.040 --> 0:40:29.759 maybe always have, is getting an accurate picture of God. 0:40:30.080 --> 0:40:33.640 And God is in control. But he's also not only sovereign, 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:36.839 he's all wise and he's all knowing. And so he 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:39.480 knows the beginning from the end. And the wisdom of 0:40:39.480 --> 0:40:42.840 God says he brings about the best possible ends, by 0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:46.719 the best possible means for the most possible people, for 0:40:46.719 --> 0:40:49.920 the longest possible time. And so when he wanted the 0:40:49.960 --> 0:40:52.520 gospel to go into all the world, and when he 0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:57.680 wanted Paul to fulfill his purposes, The kindest, most gentle 0:40:57.680 --> 0:41:00.560 and best way was for him to be in prison, 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:05.640 chained to guards who would have exponential impact because of 0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:08.799 their status, the Praetorian Guards. And he would be in 0:41:08.800 --> 0:41:13.680 the center of the world's power, and people from strategic 0:41:13.680 --> 0:41:17.319 places all around the world would hear about Paul and 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:21.799 his testimony. And so, to fulfill God's purpose, because he's 0:41:21.800 --> 0:41:26.680 not only sovereign, he's also loving and all powerful and kind. 0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:31.200 And I think that's that's where we can go. When 0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:34.120 I had an experience that was I would just call 0:41:34.120 --> 0:41:37.880 it the, uh, the worst betrayal of my life, most 0:41:37.880 --> 0:41:42.719 painful thing I could I had ever experienced at the time. Uh, 0:41:42.719 --> 0:41:45.279 I've struggled and, I mean, I was really angry. And 0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:48.880 I went through all of, all measure of emotions. And 0:41:48.880 --> 0:41:50.839 I asked God, if you're really in control, how could 0:41:50.840 --> 0:41:53.830 you let this happen? And I went back to if 0:41:53.830 --> 0:41:57.989 there was a kinder or gentler or better way for 0:41:57.989 --> 0:42:01.069 me to become more like Jesus, and for Jesus to 0:42:01.110 --> 0:42:03.549 fulfill what he wants to do in me and through me. 0:42:03.550 --> 0:42:06.069 I would be experiencing that now. You know, I had 0:42:06.070 --> 0:42:08.750 to check, you know, have I sinned? And that that 0:42:08.750 --> 0:42:11.069 assumption is, as far as I know, I'm walking with 0:42:11.070 --> 0:42:15.350 the Lord. And I when I look back a many, many, many, 0:42:15.350 --> 0:42:22.030 many years now, that actual negative, terrible, painful event opened 0:42:22.030 --> 0:42:24.790 the door to steps that I would have never taken 0:42:24.790 --> 0:42:28.270 in directions I would have never considered. That probably has 0:42:28.270 --> 0:42:31.070 shaped everything that God's ever done in my life since. 0:42:31.469 --> 0:42:34.990 And we don't see the big picture. Kierkegaard said that 0:42:35.030 --> 0:42:38.469 you you can only understand life looking backwards, but you 0:42:38.469 --> 0:42:41.989 have to live it forwards. It's in this moment of 0:42:41.989 --> 0:42:46.029 when it doesn't make sense forwards that you can look back. 0:42:46.510 --> 0:42:50.149 I often will get groups together and say, I want 0:42:50.150 --> 0:42:52.339 you to really think hard and I want you to 0:42:52.340 --> 0:42:57.739 share with me the most painful, difficult, ugly, whatever situation 0:42:57.940 --> 0:43:00.820 that maybe it happened five, ten, 20 years ago. That 0:43:00.820 --> 0:43:03.859 now when you look back, you see how it was 0:43:03.860 --> 0:43:07.620 used for good. And remembering those kind of things in 0:43:07.620 --> 0:43:11.899 the past often can help us endure so, so much. 0:43:11.900 --> 0:43:13.980 I think what we want progress, and that's good. But 0:43:13.980 --> 0:43:17.259 sometimes the greatest progress is you endure. I mean, I 0:43:17.260 --> 0:43:18.940 don't like today, but I'm going to make it just 0:43:18.940 --> 0:43:20.419 for today. And then you get up and you just 0:43:20.420 --> 0:43:22.940 make it. You know, I can't do this tomorrow, but 0:43:22.980 --> 0:43:26.219 there's no grace until tomorrow comes. And that's a, you know, 0:43:26.260 --> 0:43:29.739 you counsel so many people. Gary, what do you say 0:43:29.739 --> 0:43:33.259 to them when really the goal, God's will, is endure 0:43:33.300 --> 0:43:35.700 right now and choose to rejoice even though you don't 0:43:35.700 --> 0:43:36.459 feel like it? 0:43:36.820 --> 0:43:40.500 Yeah. Well, I think that that is the key because 0:43:40.500 --> 0:43:44.340 it's all a matter of perspective. And by nature I'm 0:43:44.380 --> 0:43:46.980 empathetic with them. I can see how you would feel, 0:43:46.980 --> 0:43:49.460 what you feel, how you could think, what you think. 0:43:49.780 --> 0:43:52.180 But let's look at the bigger picture, you know, and 0:43:52.180 --> 0:43:53.899 try to share the kind of things you've shared on 0:43:53.900 --> 0:43:56.500 this program today. I do want to ask you another 0:43:56.500 --> 0:43:59.859 personal question, Chip. At the beginning of our program, you 0:43:59.900 --> 0:44:02.860 shared that journey with all the back pain and all 0:44:02.900 --> 0:44:05.860 that you had for their years. I want to know, 0:44:05.980 --> 0:44:08.100 how's your back situation today? 0:44:08.700 --> 0:44:10.940 Well, you know, I worked out this morning, so I 0:44:10.940 --> 0:44:12.299 didn't use to be able to do that. I got 0:44:12.340 --> 0:44:14.740 on one of those stair climber things and I can 0:44:14.739 --> 0:44:16.980 do an exercise bike. I have I have a little 0:44:16.980 --> 0:44:20.020 struggle standing still for very long. And I have a 0:44:20.540 --> 0:44:24.100 struggle walking, you know, more than 100 yards or so. 0:44:24.140 --> 0:44:26.620 I kind of need to sit down. I've had three 0:44:26.620 --> 0:44:30.500 epidural injections so far this year, and one was somewhat 0:44:30.540 --> 0:44:33.860 helpful and the other two weren't. So I have to 0:44:33.900 --> 0:44:36.380 take like pain pills all the time. I have a 0:44:36.580 --> 0:44:40.100 high pain tolerance, which probably is is good. It's probably 0:44:40.100 --> 0:44:44.460 developed and I can honestly say, uh, you know, I'm 0:44:44.460 --> 0:44:48.100 still saying, you know what, Lord, I, I have seen 0:44:48.100 --> 0:44:51.290 you supernaturally heal people if you want to snap your 0:44:51.290 --> 0:44:54.450 fingers or you wouldn't even take that, I could be 0:44:54.450 --> 0:44:57.729 whole one second from now. I don't know how much 0:44:57.730 --> 0:45:00.529 pain I need to be as dependent as I need 0:45:00.530 --> 0:45:02.490 to be to do all that you want me to do. 0:45:02.770 --> 0:45:04.890 All I know is that this season of my life, 0:45:04.890 --> 0:45:07.609 I'm seeing God work in me and through me in 0:45:07.610 --> 0:45:10.650 ways that I never dreamed. And I don't want to 0:45:10.690 --> 0:45:16.250 just get it out for some relief if, um, because 0:45:16.250 --> 0:45:18.930 of my hard headedness. And I really can be that way, 0:45:19.210 --> 0:45:23.210 if I need some level of pain, that allows me 0:45:23.210 --> 0:45:26.650 to be very, very dependent because it has and I'm 0:45:26.690 --> 0:45:29.410 at the core of me, you know, maybe everybody else 0:45:29.410 --> 0:45:31.969 does too, but I, I can be very self dependent 0:45:31.969 --> 0:45:36.610 and very proud and very arrogant. And when I'm in pain, uh, 0:45:37.250 --> 0:45:39.850 I'm not very tempted to be any of those things. 0:45:41.170 --> 0:45:43.450 Well, I ask you that question because I want our 0:45:43.450 --> 0:45:47.290 listeners to hear and know that you are still going 0:45:47.400 --> 0:45:52.080 through pain, just as Paul was when he wrote his book. 0:45:52.160 --> 0:45:55.120 You're not in jail, I understand that, but a lot 0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:58.560 of pain. When you wrote this book, and I really 0:45:58.560 --> 0:46:01.520 believe that this, this particular book is going to be 0:46:01.560 --> 0:46:03.800 used of God to help a lot of people. I 0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:06.279 cannot imagine that people will just listen to what we're 0:46:06.280 --> 0:46:08.080 saying today and not want to go get this book, 0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:10.600 because I think God can use the things we've been 0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:15.239 talking about here to help them have a totally different perspective. 0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:17.399 So I just want to thank you for being with 0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:19.839 us today. I want to thank you for writing this 0:46:19.840 --> 0:46:23.080 book and and for continuing to do you know, what 0:46:23.120 --> 0:46:25.919 God has placed in your hands to do in the 0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:29.360 midst of your present situation, which is what I hope 0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:31.200 all of us can learn how to do. 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:34.000 Well, thanks so much, Gary, for having me. And thanks 0:46:34.000 --> 0:46:36.759 for those kind words, because one of my love languages 0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:40.640 is words of affirmation. And I've used those five love 0:46:40.640 --> 0:46:44.160 languages a zillion times in my personal life and marriage. 0:46:44.160 --> 0:46:47.320 So God bless you, my friend, and keep pressing ahead. 0:46:47.480 --> 0:46:49.320 Thank you. God bless you. 0:46:49.640 --> 0:46:53.040 What an encouraging conversation today with Chip Ingram. And if 0:46:53.040 --> 0:46:56.759 you want to choose joy in whatever circumstance you're in today, 0:46:57.000 --> 0:47:00.680 go to building relationships. You'll see the book titled I 0:47:00.719 --> 0:47:05.120 choose Joy. Change your perspective, Change Your life. Again, go 0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:06.520 to Building Relationships. 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.640 And next week we're going to take you back for 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:14.440 a historic broadcast from 17 years ago. 0:47:14.800 --> 0:47:18.080 Don't miss our very first Dear Gary broadcast before we 0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:21.200 called it Dear Gary. That's coming up in one week. 0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:24.160 A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick 0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:28.080 and Janice backing. Building relationships with Gary Chapman is a 0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:32.080 production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a 0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:35.359 ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.