WEBVTT - The Mindful Marriage | Ron Deal 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:03.600 The wheels on their marriage bus nearly came off. How 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.760 did they manage to survive? Find out straight ahead. 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:11.400 There's a lot of self-control moments, but when you figure 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:13.920 it out, when you get the pathway. I'm telling you. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.360 35 years I've been in marriage and family ministry. Nothing 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:19.960 has impacted my walk with Christ or my marriage. 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:20.959 More than this. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.400 Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.240 the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages Today 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.640 Practical Help for Couples who Are Struggling. Rondale will talk 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.879 about the mindful marriage and how neuroscience and the Bible 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.440 can help you stop the painful patterns in a troubled relationship. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.200 You know Ron, from his writing about the blended family 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:49.720 and answering questions about step parenting, I think this new 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.600 resource is going to be a great help to any 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.960 couple who wants to build a stronger connection. You can 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:00.819 find our featured resource at the website Building Relationships Us 0:01:00.820 --> 0:01:03.740 and Gary, it strikes me this two prong approach of 0:01:03.740 --> 0:01:07.980 understanding yourself and how you respond to your spouse goes 0:01:07.980 --> 0:01:10.700 right along with the love language concept. 0:01:11.300 --> 0:01:14.780 Well, I think it does. I think there are parallels there, certainly. 0:01:15.220 --> 0:01:19.220 This book, however, is a really great in-depth study. I 0:01:19.220 --> 0:01:21.620 think any couple working through this book, it'd be like 0:01:21.620 --> 0:01:24.740 sitting down with a counselor and working through some stuff. 0:01:25.060 --> 0:01:27.420 So I'm excited about our discussion today. 0:01:27.980 --> 0:01:30.820 Well, let's welcome back the director of Family Life Blended 0:01:30.819 --> 0:01:35.140 and president of Smart Stepfamilies, Ron Deal. He's the most 0:01:35.180 --> 0:01:39.220 widely read and viewed author on blended families in the country. 0:01:39.380 --> 0:01:42.780 He and his wife, Nan, were married in 1986, and 0:01:42.780 --> 0:01:46.580 they've written this new book together, The Mindful Marriage. Create 0:01:46.580 --> 0:01:51.460 your best relationship through understanding and Managing Yourself. You can 0:01:51.460 --> 0:01:54.860 find out more at Building Relationships us. 0:01:54.900 --> 0:01:58.220 Well, Ron, welcome back to Building Relationships. 0:01:58.460 --> 0:02:00.040 It's good to be to be with you again, Gary. 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.040 You're a good friend, and I always enjoy talking with you. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.600 Well, I feel the same way. Enjoyed writing a book 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.440 with you earlier. We can mention that later, perhaps, but 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.600 this book I'm really, really excited about. Well, Ron, I 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:14.440 think there are many of our listeners who have never 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.760 heard the story of your and Nan's struggle in your marriage, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:20.720 in which you really got to the place where you 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.720 felt like things were falling apart. I've told my story 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.080 many times, of course, with Carolyn, but tell us about 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:30.120 that and the road that you've been on since then. 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.000 You know, through the years, um, we have told many 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:38.400 people privately that story. And on occasion, when it made sense, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:43.359 it's entered into my public teaching. Um, but we just 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:47.800 really felt like it was time to go all out. Uh, 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:50.480 not that we were hiding it all along, but that 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.880 we just didn't really know how to verbalize the story. 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.460 And candidly, we were still working on us in a 0:02:58.460 --> 0:03:03.540 way that we wanted to get further in our journey 0:03:03.540 --> 0:03:07.100 before we could really share it. And so four years ago, 0:03:07.100 --> 0:03:10.420 we went to our therapist, Doctor Terry Hargrave, who in 0:03:10.419 --> 0:03:15.419 this book, we tell everybody how he has been developing 0:03:15.580 --> 0:03:20.460 a strategy and approach to working with couples for many years. 0:03:20.460 --> 0:03:22.620 And it's used around the world at this point. But 0:03:22.620 --> 0:03:25.060 mostly the academic community is the only people who know 0:03:25.060 --> 0:03:28.100 about it. And we went to him and said, you know, 0:03:28.139 --> 0:03:31.820 you changed our life and we're absolutely in love with 0:03:31.820 --> 0:03:35.460 everything that you've done. We've been teaching it and counseling 0:03:35.460 --> 0:03:38.740 and using it for years and years at this point, 0:03:38.740 --> 0:03:41.060 and we just want to share it with the world. 0:03:41.100 --> 0:03:43.820 Can can we partner with you and your wife Sharon? 0:03:43.820 --> 0:03:46.060 And can the four of us write this book and 0:03:46.060 --> 0:03:50.260 make it accessible for the average person? And that's what 0:03:50.260 --> 0:03:53.900 the mindful marriage has become. It is our testimony and 0:03:54.100 --> 0:03:58.680 testimony of our mess and how the Hargraves changed all 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:03.160 that with their principles that they are now teaching and 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:07.000 have been has been taught academically for years, and we're 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:11.120 just trying to make it accessible to everybody because we 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.160 know how powerful it really is. 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.599 Yeah. Well, you know, I think when we share our 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:22.560 own journey, it does help people because they realize, oh, 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:24.760 they're not perfect. Oh, they've been there. 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:28.440 That's exactly right, Gary. And people are attracted to that. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.480 Absolutely. And I'm encouraged that you've chosen to do that. 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.280 You know, it turns out that your counselor, Doctor Terry Hargrave, 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.279 has innovated a model of therapy that you've talked about 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:46.880 that is beginning to gain recognition. Tell us about restoration therapy, 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.480 which is the term that's used and how does it 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.520 relate to this book, Mindful marriages. 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:54.800 Well, first of all, let me just say it is 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:59.300 deeply Christian. Restoration therapy has its roots in the New 0:04:59.300 --> 0:05:02.820 Testament language of old self and new self. We've all 0:05:02.820 --> 0:05:04.660 heard a good sermon about how we should take off 0:05:04.660 --> 0:05:06.220 our old self and put on our new. That's the 0:05:06.220 --> 0:05:09.700 language Paul uses over and over and over again. And 0:05:09.940 --> 0:05:12.740 if you're like me, you you go, yeah, that's right. 0:05:12.740 --> 0:05:14.300 I need to go do that. And then you go 0:05:14.300 --> 0:05:16.460 home and you have another bad moment where you just 0:05:16.460 --> 0:05:19.060 do the same thing again and you're like, how do 0:05:19.060 --> 0:05:21.780 I take it off and put it on? And that's 0:05:21.779 --> 0:05:25.740 the core of what restoration Therapy really does. But it 0:05:25.740 --> 0:05:29.060 also integrates the best of what we know of from 0:05:29.060 --> 0:05:32.460 neuroscience and how the brain body works. Over the last 0:05:32.460 --> 0:05:35.740 20 years, we've learned so much that's integrated what we 0:05:35.740 --> 0:05:39.860 know about what we call attachment. That is the emotional, 0:05:39.860 --> 0:05:44.620 psychological connection that we all have in important relationships. How 0:05:44.620 --> 0:05:48.380 that gets flushed out in a in a marriage context specifically. 0:05:48.700 --> 0:05:53.820 So neuroscience, attachment, self-regulation, big term. We can unpack that 0:05:53.820 --> 0:05:55.720 a little bit. But the but the biblical word for 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.720 that is self-control. That's not a new idea, but it 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.839 turns out learning how to do it just takes a 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.520 huge discipline. And then there's this issue of pride and 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:10.320 humility and how pride works against our relationships, and humility 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.040 works for it. All of those concepts are rolled up 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:19.159 into this what's called restoration therapy, the mindful marriage at 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.080 the end of the day. Mindfulness is a word. A 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:23.600 lot of people kind of go, well, what's that? That 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.600 sounds a little new agey. No, no, no, no it's not. 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:30.600 It's the Bible is replete with using the term in 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.320 the form of what? Romans 12. Be transformed by the 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:38.320 renewing of your mind. Like that's what we're helping people 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.719 to actually do not just know what they should do, 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.080 but actually take off that old self and put on 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.960 the new and start doing it. That's what this approach 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.160 is really, really great at. 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.660 Well, in the book you use the term us ness. 0:06:55.339 --> 0:07:01.180 Us ness. What is that and how does emotional dysregulation 0:07:01.779 --> 0:07:02.580 affect it? 0:07:03.260 --> 0:07:06.660 Well, yeah. Your essence is that thing that you created 0:07:06.660 --> 0:07:09.860 on the day you got married. It's it's a living, 0:07:09.860 --> 0:07:15.380 breathing organism that exists as a result of marital commitment, 0:07:15.580 --> 0:07:19.900 love and trustworthiness to one another. It's what you are 0:07:20.020 --> 0:07:22.700 together that is far more than the sum of the 0:07:22.700 --> 0:07:25.620 two people. You know, I've often thought we do the 0:07:25.620 --> 0:07:29.820 unity candle maybe a little bit backwards. Um, you know, 0:07:29.860 --> 0:07:31.940 he takes his candle, she takes hers, and they light 0:07:31.940 --> 0:07:34.940 the center candle. And then, you know, traditionally you blow 0:07:34.940 --> 0:07:37.980 yourself out at that point and it's like, whoa, wait 0:07:37.980 --> 0:07:40.300 a minute, where did you go? You don't actually die. 0:07:40.300 --> 0:07:43.020 You don't you don't stop becoming a person or being 0:07:43.020 --> 0:07:45.300 a person. As a matter of fact, you should keep 0:07:45.300 --> 0:07:48.500 those individual candles lit and then step back from the 0:07:48.500 --> 0:07:51.780 unity candle and go, okay, there's you, there's me, and 0:07:51.780 --> 0:07:55.280 there's our essence. That's the thing in the middle that 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.560 we have created, that we are committed to, to use 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.640 the biblical language that we're going to feed and nurture 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.480 and care for. It's like a child, Gary. It's it's 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.600 the child that you it results because of your love 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.040 and dedication to one another. But you do got to 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:12.800 feed that child. You better take care of it. You 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.280 better teach it. You better instruct it. You better pour 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.640 into it. And then that helps that child grow up. 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.520 And your essence is exactly the same when your essence 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.640 is at peace. Each partner is being fed by it, 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.800 and each partner thrives within it. You feel safe. You 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.880 feel whole. You. You naturally give. And here's the thing 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.640 you naturally give the best of yourself back to the essence. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.319 So you get fed and you turn around and feed it. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.480 But when your essence is in pain, here's what we 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:47.079 know that one or both partners is sort of neurologically dysregulated, 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.320 and we can flesh that out in a minute. And 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.780 essentially it means you feel insecure. You're feeling anxious about 0:08:52.780 --> 0:08:55.380 your worth, about how much they want you, or how 0:08:55.380 --> 0:08:57.620 much you want them. And do you feel safe to 0:08:57.660 --> 0:09:03.020 give of yourself in this relationship? That's what the dysregulation 0:09:03.020 --> 0:09:06.540 is about the US. It feels like our flame is 0:09:06.540 --> 0:09:08.940 about to blow out. It feels like the flame is 0:09:08.940 --> 0:09:15.059 getting smaller. And I'm not feeling great about that any moment. 0:09:15.660 --> 0:09:20.460 And here's what's crazy about dysregulation. It comes in a heartbeat. 0:09:20.740 --> 0:09:22.460 All of us listening right now who have ever been 0:09:22.460 --> 0:09:25.699 in any sort of close, intimate relationship, especially a marriage 0:09:26.140 --> 0:09:29.179 you've had those days where everything's clicking and you are 0:09:29.179 --> 0:09:31.780 just loving one another, and then one of you makes 0:09:31.780 --> 0:09:37.140 a remark and in a nanosecond you are against each other. Like, 0:09:37.179 --> 0:09:40.300 it's like what just happened in that moment. We loved 0:09:40.300 --> 0:09:43.339 each other. I made a comment. You heard something? Or 0:09:43.340 --> 0:09:46.819 maybe I meant it. Harsh, but you heard harsh. And 0:09:46.820 --> 0:09:50.480 now you got your heels dug in and I'm defensive. Offensive. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.800 Where did our looseness go? In that moment, we can 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:59.520 all relate to this. There's something happening in those moments 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.960 that brings out the worst of us when we're at peace. 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.440 It brings the best of us when we're at pain 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.280 or in pain. It brings out the worst of us. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.520 We all know it. We've all been there. We all 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.600 feel it. And it doesn't mean our relationship is horrible. 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:19.719 It just means that moment something's off. Yeah, there is 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.520 a beauty in that. And there is a challenge and 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.839 an art to learning how to feed and care and 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.720 nurture that essence in a way that keeps it at peace. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:31.760 Yeah. 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:33.800 And it's a journey, right? 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:36.600 Yes. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.880 And I and here's the thing I've learned about dysregulation. 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.720 Everybody on the planet gets dysregulated. Everybody feels a little 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.040 anxious and insecure and nervous. And another word is triggered. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.460 Discombobulated where you just don't feel like things are going 0:10:51.460 --> 0:10:54.500 well in your relationship. Even if it's just for a 0:10:54.500 --> 0:10:58.580 few moments or sometimes it's a season. For us, it 0:10:58.580 --> 0:11:01.660 rose to the to the point where Nan's like, I'm done, 0:11:01.660 --> 0:11:04.260 I don't want whatever we've got is I don't want 0:11:04.260 --> 0:11:06.740 it anymore. I mean, that was our crisis moment in 0:11:06.780 --> 0:11:11.660 2007 that led us into Doctor Hargreaves office. And we 0:11:11.660 --> 0:11:13.820 tell that whole story in the book. Like that was 0:11:13.820 --> 0:11:18.059 a huge dysregulated moment for us. We all do this. 0:11:18.140 --> 0:11:21.540 We all know what it feels like. And the question 0:11:21.540 --> 0:11:24.980 is why? Then? You know, when that happens, I become 0:11:24.980 --> 0:11:28.700 my worst self. How do I stay? How do I 0:11:28.780 --> 0:11:33.700 stay in my Christ? Mature new self? In those moments, 0:11:33.700 --> 0:11:37.540 that's what we are getting at. And so it really 0:11:37.540 --> 0:11:40.540 is core to how we do marriage. 0:11:41.260 --> 0:11:44.060 Can I jump in and ask you how bad it got? 0:11:44.100 --> 0:11:47.580 I know Nan said, I don't want, but was it, 0:11:47.620 --> 0:11:53.240 you know, From your perspective, what were those days like? And, 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.920 you know, the darkness that you were in? 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:02.760 Well, it was deeply frightening. Um, at the end of 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:04.560 the day, I can tell you now that she didn't 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.040 really want a divorce. She didn't really want to leave. 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.720 She was just sick and tired of what we had, 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:11.480 that she didn't know how to live with it. And 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.680 by the way, I really think that's a common experience. 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.760 What I've learned is, well, we talk about in the 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.079 book the two pillars that every relationship needs to have. 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.560 It's got to have love. Love gives you a sense 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.040 of identity, a sense of your worth and belonging and 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:30.360 value in the relationship. But you also have to have trust. 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.680 And trust gives you safety. It gives you a sense 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:39.240 that I'm safe within your arms, within this relationship. Most people, 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.880 when they before long before they get a divorce, they 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.400 fall out of safety with one another and then fall 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.979 out of love with one another. I would say in 2007, 0:12:48.980 --> 0:12:52.180 Nan had fallen out of safety with me. She didn't 0:12:52.179 --> 0:12:55.100 believe that I was there for her, that she could 0:12:55.100 --> 0:13:00.780 count on me, that our relationship was being fed and nurtured. And, 0:13:00.820 --> 0:13:03.020 you know, we were trying and we had plenty of 0:13:03.020 --> 0:13:05.900 wonderful moments, but we had more and more and more 0:13:05.900 --> 0:13:09.460 dysregulated moments. And that just grew to a place where 0:13:09.460 --> 0:13:11.260 she was like, I don't know how to live with this. 0:13:12.059 --> 0:13:14.660 So she didn't really want to end our marriage, but 0:13:14.660 --> 0:13:16.579 she didn't know how to live with it either. And 0:13:16.580 --> 0:13:20.020 so it was that moment of and of course, that 0:13:20.020 --> 0:13:22.740 hit me between the eyes like, oh, wow. I knew 0:13:22.740 --> 0:13:25.260 we were struggling. Didn't realize it was that bad. On 0:13:25.260 --> 0:13:27.579 your side. I don't think it's that bad. You know 0:13:27.580 --> 0:13:29.260 which one of us is right now we're arguing about 0:13:29.260 --> 0:13:31.540 how bad we are, you know? That's a fun little 0:13:31.540 --> 0:13:35.780 place to be. And so it was like, clearly, something's 0:13:35.780 --> 0:13:39.300 got to change. Clearly, we need some outside help. And 0:13:39.300 --> 0:13:43.100 that's where we saw it. I will say this, um, 0:13:43.100 --> 0:13:47.120 I didn't think we were that bad off. Now you 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.920 can go. Was that denial? Was that and I've learned 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.560 that I'm really good at counter blame. So in my 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:55.480 mind it's not nearly as bad as it is in 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.200 her mind. And so I can make her the problem 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:03.880 with that. And and that's what I did initially. And 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.439 it was only when I ended up in Terry's office 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:11.880 that I began a journey that he unfortunately and fortunately 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:16.160 forced me into, where I had to look deeply into 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.160 the mirror at my own pride and discover that man, 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:25.080 I'm blind to me. And if I don't wake up, uh, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.040 what what Nan and I have is just going to 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.320 keep getting worse. And Nan had a whole side on, 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.040 you know, she would tell you she had a whole 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:33.520 lot that she had to work on, too. This is 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.800 not a one person problem. This was a two person problem. 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.120 But I was not willing to look at myself until 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:41.000 that moment. 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:41.880 Yeah. 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.820 Because by nature, all of us, when a situation like that, 0:14:46.940 --> 0:14:50.660 we're really thinking it's the other problem. It's the other person. 0:14:50.900 --> 0:14:54.300 If they would, if they would change. But you're right. 0:14:54.300 --> 0:14:56.180 It has to be. It has to be both of us. 0:14:56.180 --> 0:14:58.980 Because we're we're the essence is there. 0:14:59.060 --> 0:15:00.300 So exactly. 0:15:00.420 --> 0:15:03.460 And we're both responsible for our essence and to it. 0:15:03.980 --> 0:15:04.380 Yeah. 0:15:05.860 --> 0:15:10.220 Now you talk a lot about neurology of interpersonal relationships. 0:15:10.380 --> 0:15:12.660 Explain that. And why is it important? 0:15:13.500 --> 0:15:18.860 Well, um, you know, I think there's a, the experience of, 0:15:20.140 --> 0:15:23.620 you know, having bad moments and just becoming upset or 0:15:23.620 --> 0:15:26.060 angry at your partner or critical of them or feeling 0:15:26.060 --> 0:15:29.100 their criticism, and you get defensive, like, those are the 0:15:29.100 --> 0:15:32.140 words that we all put on it. But in the 0:15:32.140 --> 0:15:35.300 last 25 years, we've learned what's going on below the surface. 0:15:35.300 --> 0:15:39.859 That is what's embodied in our mind, body and and brain. 0:15:40.380 --> 0:15:45.680 And it kind of goes like this as we Experience 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:50.680 moments in our childhood and adulthood where we don't quite 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.560 feel loved or don't quite feel safe. Those two pillars 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.240 we talked about when one or both of those is off, 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.920 either from how we were parented, moments at home, or 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.960 an early relationship, or maybe even a first marriage that 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.080 our brain writes a little story about what that means 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.320 for us. Oh, what this means is the way this 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.560 is Ron's story that I've learned about myself. What this 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.920 means is the way Ron shows his adequacy is by 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.640 excelling at his work, by performing really well, by doing 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.320 his best. And so I was driven and I drove 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.920 so hard at my work and career and life and 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.240 marriage and trying to be a good husband and father 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.200 all at the same time. But at the end of 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.640 the day, the husband part were really suffered. And that's 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.560 what Nan was really reacting to in a, in a 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.520 big way at that season of our life. And well, 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.460 what's that about for me? Well, for for me, it's about. 0:16:46.460 --> 0:16:48.100 I don't want to feel inadequate. I don't want to 0:16:48.100 --> 0:16:50.220 feel like I'm not enough. Well, what's that about? Well, 0:16:50.220 --> 0:16:52.780 that pain came from the question that I had in 0:16:52.780 --> 0:16:57.180 my childhood about how I get my dad's love. And 0:16:57.180 --> 0:17:00.180 he had high expectations. And he was an evangelist and 0:17:00.180 --> 0:17:03.580 a wonderful man. I had great parents. And at the 0:17:03.580 --> 0:17:05.700 same time, I also knew if I didn't live up 0:17:05.700 --> 0:17:09.619 to the standards, that I might just lose their affection, 0:17:09.619 --> 0:17:11.659 their love. At least I sort of. That's the story 0:17:11.660 --> 0:17:13.740 I wrote for myself. I don't think that was actually 0:17:13.740 --> 0:17:17.420 true on any level, but I made it true. And 0:17:17.420 --> 0:17:22.020 so the story of my pain is if I'm inadequate, 0:17:22.020 --> 0:17:24.380 then I may not be loved and may not be safe. 0:17:24.740 --> 0:17:27.460 So you just perform really well. All right. Fast forward 0:17:27.460 --> 0:17:31.580 a little bit. That's the story my brain knows. So anytime, 0:17:31.660 --> 0:17:34.900 anytime in my marriage that I felt like I saw 0:17:34.900 --> 0:17:40.459 Nan's disappointment about me, I panicked. I went right into, oh, 0:17:40.460 --> 0:17:42.280 I'm not enough. And she's not going to be going 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.800 to be satisfied with me, so I better get busy. 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.600 And I would get busy in two ways. Um, by 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:50.960 the way, this is a fight or flight reactivity. This 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:55.000 is neurological. We all do. Fight or flight. Fight or 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:59.960 flight takes four forms blame, shame, control or escape. Those 0:17:59.960 --> 0:18:03.280 are the four ways it comes out of us. Uh, 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:05.440 I'm a good blamer I can counter blame. I can 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.600 figure out what Nancy doesn't have. Right? And I can 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.119 take her argument apart and, you know, go turn it 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.640 around and make it about her. I'm also a control person, 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.800 so I can control by performing, by doing and exceeding. 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.920 I can also control by criticizing her at the end 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:27.040 of the day. Blame and control tactics just make things 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.200 worse because she doesn't feel heard. She doesn't feel understood. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.440 She just feels attacked. And oh, by the way, she 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.639 has her own pain narrative from her childhood where nobody 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.720 really listened to her ever. She just felt abandoned and 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.780 all alone most of her life as a kid. And 0:18:42.780 --> 0:18:45.620 so whenever I would go into the mode of defending 0:18:45.619 --> 0:18:49.979 myself and proving her wrong, she basically heard, yep, I 0:18:49.980 --> 0:18:53.100 still don't have anybody on my side. And so our 0:18:53.100 --> 0:18:58.860 toupee narratives collide in our blame, shame, control and escape strategies. 0:18:59.619 --> 0:19:04.820 And it just makes things really ugly. Now here's you know, 0:19:04.900 --> 0:19:08.379 what's crazy about this is you can map this. I mean, 0:19:08.420 --> 0:19:11.139 once you understand this, and we take people in the 0:19:11.140 --> 0:19:14.100 mindful marriage through some exercises where you will map your 0:19:14.100 --> 0:19:17.620 pain cycle and you'll map their pain cycle and you'll 0:19:17.619 --> 0:19:20.340 see how these two things collide. It is amazing when 0:19:20.340 --> 0:19:22.619 you put it on paper and you go, oh my goodness, 0:19:22.619 --> 0:19:24.860 when we are great, we are fabulous. We are not 0:19:24.859 --> 0:19:27.420 like anything what we're seeing on this paper. But in 0:19:27.420 --> 0:19:30.540 our bad moments, this is exactly who we are. And 0:19:30.540 --> 0:19:34.300 you now know what your old self is and it's 0:19:34.300 --> 0:19:37.580 just as plain as day. Now you have the challenge 0:19:37.580 --> 0:19:40.720 of saying, how do I take that off and put 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.720 on self-control and become what God has designed me to be. 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.240 And we lead people through that process of discovering how 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.960 you move toward peace. But it the neurological component here 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.440 is important because at the end of the day, here's 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.240 what it is that your brain wants to do, what 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.200 it knows to do. And you have to overcome that 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.600 by renewing your mind. Now notice what I just said. 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:09.120 Romans 12 does not say be transformed by the renewing 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:13.080 of your brain. It says to renew your mind. Your 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:17.280 mind tells your brain and your body what it should do, 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.760 not what it knows to do, not what it's got. 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:23.000 A neurological rut that it loves to run down this 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:27.439 rut towards blame and control. But this time, Ron, we 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.800 need to move towards compassion and kindness and softness and 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.040 gentleness and take off the blame and control. That's my 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:39.439 mind telling my brain how to act. And that's when 0:20:39.580 --> 0:20:42.340 we get transformed. Like all of a sudden that old 0:20:42.340 --> 0:20:47.899 neurological self is slowly being pushed away. My sinful nature 0:20:47.900 --> 0:20:52.620 is being pushed away. That's what is transformative. And we've 0:20:52.619 --> 0:20:56.420 just we're just amazed at how far this has brought us, 0:20:56.420 --> 0:20:58.020 not just in our marriage, but at the end of 0:20:58.020 --> 0:21:00.220 the day, this is helping me walk with Christ. 0:21:01.100 --> 0:21:04.460 Yeah, I think many of our listeners, and maybe most 0:21:04.460 --> 0:21:10.340 people really don't think about the neurological, the neurological aspect 0:21:10.380 --> 0:21:13.820 and the what you're calling the pain narrative. We just 0:21:13.820 --> 0:21:18.219 know how we're responding, but we don't know, you know, 0:21:18.260 --> 0:21:20.459 the part that the brain is playing in all of that. 0:21:20.540 --> 0:21:23.740 So I think that that alone is is very, very 0:21:23.740 --> 0:21:25.220 helpful to people. 0:21:25.220 --> 0:21:28.459 And I'll just add this, Gary, it is a fascinating endeavor. 0:21:29.300 --> 0:21:32.500 The point is, this is a part of me and 0:21:32.500 --> 0:21:38.060 it is my job to manage me. Once I identify 0:21:38.060 --> 0:21:41.840 that neurological component, if you will, to my old self, 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.560 then it's still my job. In humility before God to 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:49.640 start managing that. Most of us spend our entire life, 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.360 as you said earlier, very insightfully. By the way, most 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.359 of us spend our entire life trying to get our 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.000 spouse to love us or do something different in such 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.080 a way that the pain I feel goes away. Now 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.960 notice that is Matthew seven. That is me focusing on 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.960 the little tiny speck in your eye while I've got 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.600 this huge log in my eye that I'm totally ignoring. 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.240 And so I obsess over the speck in your eye. Well, 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:16.919 that doesn't help either one of us deal with the log. 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.560 I can't get Nan to love me in such a 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:24.880 way that I all that I feel adequate. She can't 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:29.240 love that into me. It's not up to her. It's 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:33.040 up to me. And I really think this is so 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:38.220 vital to the Christian walk and how we portray our 0:22:38.220 --> 0:22:42.139 lives with one another in marriage. That I'm just telling you, 0:22:42.140 --> 0:22:44.780 I don't think we talk this talk very well. We 0:22:44.820 --> 0:22:48.020 we inadvertently sort of blame the victim. We say to 0:22:48.020 --> 0:22:50.180 the spouse, well, what can you do to help Ron 0:22:50.180 --> 0:22:54.660 not feel inadequate and insecure about himself? Well, she can 0:22:54.660 --> 0:22:57.659 be kind and nice and do certain things that help me, 0:22:58.260 --> 0:23:00.700 but that is neurological. It is in my brain. It's 0:23:00.700 --> 0:23:03.780 in my it's embodied in me. She can't love it 0:23:03.780 --> 0:23:08.300 out of me. It's inappropriate for us to assume she can. 0:23:08.300 --> 0:23:11.580 What needs to happen is Ron needs to take responsibility 0:23:11.619 --> 0:23:16.659 for Ron, and that's when I can grow up in Christ. 0:23:16.660 --> 0:23:20.660 And so as this message pours out, it's sort of like, wow, okay, 0:23:21.540 --> 0:23:24.300 stop blaming the victim, Ron. Start dealing with yourself. 0:23:25.500 --> 0:23:27.459 You know, I said at the beginning of the program 0:23:27.460 --> 0:23:31.260 that that this reminds me of dovetails with the love 0:23:31.260 --> 0:23:35.580 language concept. It also dovetails with what I've heard Gary 0:23:35.619 --> 0:23:38.800 say through the years. And that is marriage is a 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:40.359 lot of work. It takes. 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:40.879 Work. 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:45.040 And we often think, well, we love each other. We're compatible. 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:48.520 It ought to be, you know, bonbons and cotton candy 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:51.080 all the time. And it's not. It does take work, 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:51.800 doesn't it? 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:54.639 It does, Chris. And I'm so glad you brought this up, because, 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:56.480 you know, Gary and I wrote a book together, Building 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.439 Love Together and Blended Families, where we apply some of 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.440 the smart step family principles I have with Gary's love 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:06.240 languages in our book. This actually is a bonus section 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:08.680 that we have some bonus material online that people can 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:12.080 can get for free, and we write about how people 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:15.960 misuse your love language principles with what I'm talking about. 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:18.640 How many times have you heard somebody say, well, my 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:20.760 love language is and you got to get my wife 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:24.560 to love me that way. No, the whole point in 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:28.119 your principles is to for me to be selfless and 0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:31.600 start looking at how I can serve my spouse rather 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:36.010 than demand that they serve me. But I know you've 0:24:36.010 --> 0:24:39.530 had people misuse that for years and years and years. 0:24:39.570 --> 0:24:41.970 What is that? That is what I've been talking about. 0:24:42.050 --> 0:24:44.689 We want the other to love me in such a 0:24:44.690 --> 0:24:47.330 way that I don't feel any pain in my heart 0:24:47.330 --> 0:24:52.209 and life anymore. That will never, ever work. I'm the 0:24:52.210 --> 0:24:54.410 one who has to deal with the log in my eye. 0:24:54.410 --> 0:24:58.370 And here's what Doctor Hargrave has taught me. There is 0:24:58.369 --> 0:25:01.850 a quick fix about. Oh, if you'll just, you know, 0:25:01.890 --> 0:25:04.930 love me in a certain way, then my my, my 0:25:04.930 --> 0:25:09.770 log will leave my life. Well, no, that's like cotton candy. 0:25:09.810 --> 0:25:12.609 Your spouse can make you feel good for a few minutes. 0:25:13.290 --> 0:25:17.530 But what is neurological in your brain? Embodied in your soul? 0:25:18.210 --> 0:25:20.210 You are going to hang on to until the day 0:25:20.290 --> 0:25:24.929 you reckon with it, until you start taking charge of it. 0:25:25.730 --> 0:25:29.210 It's not even up to God. And let me explain that. Uh, 0:25:29.210 --> 0:25:31.890 we all know better than we act. Why is that? 0:25:31.890 --> 0:25:33.810 Because we understand God's will for our life. But that 0:25:33.810 --> 0:25:36.550 doesn't mean we mean we actually do it. Discipleship is 0:25:36.550 --> 0:25:40.550 about me aligning my will with God's will. That's when 0:25:40.550 --> 0:25:44.270 I get transformed. That's when God's really in charge of 0:25:44.270 --> 0:25:47.190 my life. That's when I make him king is when 0:25:47.190 --> 0:25:49.790 I align my will with his. And that means I 0:25:49.830 --> 0:25:54.790 have to deal with what my body brain, soul wants 0:25:54.790 --> 0:25:58.670 to do. So until I take charge of that, I'm 0:25:58.670 --> 0:26:00.350 just going to walk around with a log in my eye, 0:26:00.350 --> 0:26:02.710 blaming everybody else for all the stuff they do wrong. 0:26:02.710 --> 0:26:06.629 That that that makes me what I am. And that 0:26:06.630 --> 0:26:08.470 is a losing game for any marriage. 0:26:14.630 --> 0:26:18.630 You're listening to the podcast Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman. 0:26:18.950 --> 0:26:21.229 Find out more about the program, when Gary might be 0:26:21.230 --> 0:26:24.550 coming to your area, and our featured resource at Building 0:26:24.550 --> 0:26:29.430 Relationships Us. Our guest today is Ron Deal, co-author with 0:26:29.430 --> 0:26:32.390 his wife, Nan, of the new book, The Mindful Marriage. 0:26:32.790 --> 0:26:35.930 Just go to go to building. Just go to building relationships. 0:26:36.170 --> 0:26:37.450 Us to find out more. 0:26:39.930 --> 0:26:42.090 And we talked about the old self and the new self. 0:26:42.130 --> 0:26:44.770 You know, the biblical concept. But putting off the old 0:26:44.770 --> 0:26:47.570 self and the role that the patterns in our brain, 0:26:48.330 --> 0:26:52.050 how they influence us. And unless we're really thinking about it, 0:26:52.090 --> 0:26:56.530 we don't we don't see that. How does humility fit 0:26:56.530 --> 0:27:01.490 into to this whole thing of understanding the other person, 0:27:01.490 --> 0:27:06.010 understanding yourself and and processing all those? 0:27:07.090 --> 0:27:09.490 So in the mindful marriage, we're going to walk people 0:27:09.609 --> 0:27:13.250 into an understanding of their pain cycle and the story 0:27:13.250 --> 0:27:15.170 of pain in their life and what it leads them 0:27:15.170 --> 0:27:17.970 to do, how they react and blame, shame, control and escape. 0:27:18.050 --> 0:27:19.530 We're then going to lead them to a place where 0:27:19.530 --> 0:27:23.090 they understand the peace cycle. That is. What does it 0:27:23.090 --> 0:27:26.250 look like to live out of God's truth rather than 0:27:26.290 --> 0:27:31.290 out of your pain? And once they've identified that, they 0:27:31.290 --> 0:27:34.710 have a very tangible map of how to change your life, 0:27:34.710 --> 0:27:36.950 how to be transformed by the renewing of their mind. 0:27:37.070 --> 0:27:41.070 And here's what we've learned. People won't do it unless 0:27:41.550 --> 0:27:44.229 they put on humility. At the end of the day, 0:27:44.230 --> 0:27:47.750 humility is the attitude that says, yeah, it's my job 0:27:47.990 --> 0:27:51.629 to deal with me. It is me and God working 0:27:51.630 --> 0:27:54.709 on me through the spirit power of the Holy Spirit. 0:27:55.350 --> 0:27:59.909 And and unless I, I bow the knee to the 0:27:59.910 --> 0:28:03.510 King every single day and say, Lord, help me, I 0:28:03.630 --> 0:28:06.350 won't actually change what I do. I'll just stay stuck 0:28:06.350 --> 0:28:08.149 in it. I may have the greatest knowledge I got 0:28:08.150 --> 0:28:10.070 this map in front of me. I now know me 0:28:10.070 --> 0:28:12.389 better than I've ever known me. And I won't change 0:28:12.390 --> 0:28:16.990 anything in real life because I still think in pride 0:28:17.390 --> 0:28:19.710 that I don't deserve this or I deserve better, or 0:28:19.710 --> 0:28:22.070 it's somebody else's fault or, you know, whatever it is 0:28:22.070 --> 0:28:25.630 that pushes it away from me. Humility is that posture 0:28:25.630 --> 0:28:29.350 that says, I'm getting really serious about who I am, 0:28:30.070 --> 0:28:32.689 and I'm bringing that before God and asking for his help. 0:28:34.090 --> 0:28:38.370 It's what activates the change in us, and without it, 0:28:38.410 --> 0:28:41.090 we're just stuck. And let me just pull back for 0:28:41.090 --> 0:28:44.010 a second and say there's an amazing principle taught in 0:28:44.010 --> 0:28:47.650 Scripture that, uh, I just continue to ponder and chew 0:28:47.650 --> 0:28:50.250 on and we talk about it in The Mindful Marriage, 0:28:50.250 --> 0:28:52.890 and it's repeated. I've lost track, I think, more than 0:28:52.890 --> 0:28:55.970 35 times throughout the Bible, but it goes like this 0:28:55.970 --> 0:28:59.570 God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble. 0:28:59.650 --> 0:29:01.610 In a very simple way, here it is. If you 0:29:01.650 --> 0:29:04.410 come before God going, hey, I got life figured out. 0:29:04.410 --> 0:29:07.330 I don't need you and your rules. That's pride. He's 0:29:07.330 --> 0:29:09.530 going to oppose you. He's not going to let you 0:29:09.530 --> 0:29:11.729 stand before him with that attitude and get away with it. 0:29:11.730 --> 0:29:14.850 He just won't. He'll let you suffer the consequences of 0:29:14.850 --> 0:29:17.890 your choices. He'll bring something to your life that challenges 0:29:17.890 --> 0:29:20.690 your pride. Something is going to show up in the 0:29:20.690 --> 0:29:23.610 form of opposition. And we can just think of a 0:29:23.650 --> 0:29:27.250 character in the Bible, and you can probably identify those 0:29:27.250 --> 0:29:30.670 who did that and and how God opposed post them, 0:29:30.670 --> 0:29:33.230 but the opposite is also true. Stand before him in 0:29:33.230 --> 0:29:35.310 humility and say, Lord, I don't got. I don't got anything. 0:29:35.390 --> 0:29:37.790 I don't have anything figured out. I am nothing without you. 0:29:37.910 --> 0:29:41.990 I need you. And he runs to our side like 0:29:41.990 --> 0:29:44.630 the father and the prodigal son, and throws a coat 0:29:44.630 --> 0:29:48.350 around and said, you got it all. I'm here for you. 0:29:48.390 --> 0:29:52.910 You're my child. Grace abounds. Now, here's what I want 0:29:52.910 --> 0:29:57.190 people to hear today. I believe that principle doesn't just 0:29:57.190 --> 0:30:01.350 work vertically spiritually with God. It works horizontally with every 0:30:01.350 --> 0:30:04.870 relationship in our life, most notably in marriage. But it 0:30:04.870 --> 0:30:08.550 also works in parenting and leadership and pastoral care, whatever 0:30:08.550 --> 0:30:13.070 it is. I think politicians stand before people in pride 0:30:13.070 --> 0:30:15.670 and they will oppose you. Stand before your wife in 0:30:15.670 --> 0:30:18.030 pride and she will be sick and tired of you 0:30:18.030 --> 0:30:20.510 in a hurry. And next thing you know, she is 0:30:20.510 --> 0:30:26.270 pushing back somehow. But stand in humility when you make 0:30:26.270 --> 0:30:29.310 a mistake. When you find yourself getting. You know what? 0:30:29.530 --> 0:30:33.650 I feel inadequate right now. And it's my job to put, uh, 0:30:33.650 --> 0:30:36.130 rails guardrails on that. And I'm not going to take 0:30:36.130 --> 0:30:38.050 it out on you when I say that sort of 0:30:38.130 --> 0:30:40.930 thing out loud in front of my wife. She breathes 0:30:40.970 --> 0:30:44.570 a sigh of relief, and she, more likely than not, 0:30:44.610 --> 0:30:48.970 has grace for me. She softens. She has more compassion. 0:30:49.170 --> 0:30:52.890 She's more forgiving. She'll go the extra mile. Why? Because 0:30:52.890 --> 0:30:57.570 she sees Ron putting on humility and taking charge of himself. 0:30:58.290 --> 0:31:00.570 And when Ron does that, he is far more safe 0:31:00.570 --> 0:31:04.410 to be around. He's more approachable. But the opposite is 0:31:04.410 --> 0:31:06.490 also true. If I put on pride and go, hey, babe, 0:31:06.490 --> 0:31:09.810 this is your problem, not mine. All of a sudden 0:31:09.810 --> 0:31:14.530 she's in opposition to me and I am undoing myself. 0:31:14.610 --> 0:31:18.690 And I am undoing our looseness in pride. At the 0:31:18.690 --> 0:31:21.850 end of the day, this is the core thing that 0:31:21.850 --> 0:31:26.209 either makes the love languages helpful or not helpful. The 0:31:26.210 --> 0:31:30.430 mindful marriage principles helpful or not helpful. Just because you 0:31:30.470 --> 0:31:32.910 know it doesn't mean you'll do it. And humility is 0:31:32.910 --> 0:31:36.710 the thing that's going to activate your ability to follow through. 0:31:37.630 --> 0:31:41.750 I'm thinking about John 15 verse five where Jesus said, 0:31:41.830 --> 0:31:45.590 I am the vine, you are the branches. You stay 0:31:45.590 --> 0:31:49.870 connected to me. You bear fruit. And then this statement, 0:31:50.150 --> 0:31:52.190 without me you can do nothing. 0:31:52.630 --> 0:31:53.350 That's right. 0:31:53.950 --> 0:31:58.390 And I learned that early in my life. I'm glad 0:31:58.390 --> 0:32:02.510 that I did. That's why every day I'm crying out 0:32:02.510 --> 0:32:07.150 for wisdom. God, in this situation, this situation, this situation. 0:32:07.390 --> 0:32:09.110 I can't I can't do this. You know. 0:32:09.150 --> 0:32:13.190 Every single day that has to be our wake up posture. 0:32:13.270 --> 0:32:17.190 I often say, I've learned the hard way that we 0:32:17.230 --> 0:32:20.350 come to to Christ in humility. Lord, help me, I 0:32:20.350 --> 0:32:23.950 need you. Um, we walk with him in humility. You know, 0:32:23.950 --> 0:32:26.510 what does the Lord require of you? Act justly, love mercy, 0:32:26.510 --> 0:32:30.610 and walk humbly with your God. Micah six eight. And 0:32:30.610 --> 0:32:32.890 someday when he comes, every knee will bow and every 0:32:32.890 --> 0:32:35.210 tongue confess that Christ is. We're going to bow in 0:32:35.210 --> 0:32:38.330 humility when he comes. It's the before, it's the during, 0:32:38.330 --> 0:32:41.930 and it's the after of discipleship. And if we don't 0:32:41.930 --> 0:32:46.969 do that, then we really cannot learn any of the 0:32:46.970 --> 0:32:51.970 other virtues, a character, qualities that that we need to 0:32:51.970 --> 0:32:53.770 have to become more like Christ. 0:32:54.650 --> 0:32:57.650 Ron, in the book you use the term called phubbing. 0:32:58.650 --> 0:32:58.970 P. 0:32:58.970 --> 0:33:02.010 H e b b I n g. What is? 0:33:02.010 --> 0:33:04.050 It's a new word. It's a new word. 0:33:04.530 --> 0:33:06.370 And how might it affect all of this? 0:33:06.730 --> 0:33:11.170 Yeah. Well, you know, because of our mobile phone world. Um, 0:33:11.210 --> 0:33:13.570 psychologists have come up with a new term. This is 0:33:13.570 --> 0:33:19.969 partner phone snubbing. Phubbing is when you snub your partner 0:33:20.450 --> 0:33:24.370 for your phone. And everybody listening right now knows exactly 0:33:24.370 --> 0:33:26.670 what I'm talking about. It's. This has either happened to you. 0:33:26.710 --> 0:33:28.430 You've seen it. You've been in a restaurant and you 0:33:28.430 --> 0:33:30.590 see two people or a family sitting there, and nobody's 0:33:30.590 --> 0:33:32.630 talking to one another because they're all looking at their phone. 0:33:33.030 --> 0:33:35.710 Or you've been in bed at night and you're about 0:33:35.710 --> 0:33:38.950 to turn to your spouse and have a conversation, but 0:33:38.950 --> 0:33:41.550 they're looking at Facebook and you're like, huh? Well, I 0:33:41.550 --> 0:33:44.990 guess they're interested in that. Not so interested in me. 0:33:45.110 --> 0:33:51.030 And there you go. Phubbing is a micro affair. And 0:33:51.030 --> 0:33:54.270 what it says to the partner on the receiving end 0:33:54.270 --> 0:33:57.710 of that is you're not as important as this thing is. 0:33:58.710 --> 0:34:03.150 And you feel their disaffection. And it will dysregulate in a, 0:34:03.150 --> 0:34:06.390 in a micro moment because you're like, wait a minute, 0:34:06.390 --> 0:34:07.710 wait a minute. Do I have you or do I 0:34:07.750 --> 0:34:09.950 not have you? Am I important or am I not important? 0:34:09.989 --> 0:34:13.350 That's a form of dysregulation. And the next thing you know, 0:34:13.350 --> 0:34:17.030 you're probably going into blame, shame, control or escape. Escape. 0:34:17.030 --> 0:34:18.910 Looks like. Well, fine. I'll just look in my phone 0:34:18.910 --> 0:34:20.589 or I'll watch TV, or I'll go in the other 0:34:20.590 --> 0:34:23.029 room or I'm not talking to you either. That's the 0:34:23.070 --> 0:34:26.930 withdrawal thing. You know the shame factor. We haven't talked 0:34:26.930 --> 0:34:29.610 about shame yet. Talking about blaming control a little bit. 0:34:29.770 --> 0:34:32.930 Shame is, um. Oh, there must be something wrong with 0:34:32.930 --> 0:34:37.210 me that I'm uninteresting or not attractive or. Why would 0:34:37.210 --> 0:34:40.970 that draw your attention and I don't. And so it's 0:34:40.969 --> 0:34:46.770 this downgrading yourself talk that that's what shame does. So 0:34:47.730 --> 0:34:50.529 again everybody's a little different in how they respond in 0:34:50.530 --> 0:34:55.050 that moment. But you feel the lack of isness and 0:34:55.050 --> 0:34:57.930 it's going to be a real problem. There's already research. 0:34:57.930 --> 0:35:00.009 We haven't been doing the phone thing very long in 0:35:00.010 --> 0:35:04.690 our society, but there's already research that tells us that 0:35:04.690 --> 0:35:08.690 these little moments of disaffection can add up to a 0:35:08.690 --> 0:35:13.169 greater sense of insecurity within relationships. And by the way, 0:35:13.170 --> 0:35:15.649 this is affecting parenting, too. The parenting version of this 0:35:15.650 --> 0:35:19.330 they call techno ference. That's where it's interfering with the 0:35:19.330 --> 0:35:22.609 process of of parenting your children. You ask your child, 0:35:22.610 --> 0:35:25.149 would you please go clean your dishes and put them 0:35:25.150 --> 0:35:28.149 in the dishwasher. And and you turn to your phone 0:35:28.150 --> 0:35:30.109 and you stare into that, and 20 minutes later, you 0:35:30.150 --> 0:35:32.629 sort of pop out and you go, oh, your dishes 0:35:32.630 --> 0:35:34.830 are still there. Did you not finish it? And you've 0:35:34.830 --> 0:35:37.030 lost track of your child. You're not doing the behavioral 0:35:37.030 --> 0:35:39.950 management of your child because you got lost in your phone, 0:35:39.950 --> 0:35:42.350 and therefore you're more angry. You go find your child. 0:35:42.350 --> 0:35:45.629 You know, you're a little harsh because you were the 0:35:45.630 --> 0:35:50.469 one who got interfered with and didn't follow through. We're 0:35:50.469 --> 0:35:55.670 already seeing how this affects mothers and their nursing infant. 0:35:55.989 --> 0:35:58.230 And instead of staring into the eyes of the infant 0:35:58.230 --> 0:36:01.070 while the baby nurses, a mother is staring at her phone, 0:36:01.070 --> 0:36:04.550 looking away from the child they're already seeing the brain 0:36:04.550 --> 0:36:11.710 chemistry changes in infants because of techno ference phubbing. My 0:36:11.710 --> 0:36:16.069 message to people today is in terms of your sickness, 0:36:16.070 --> 0:36:19.670 this is not helpful. We've got to put on self control. 0:36:19.670 --> 0:36:23.810 We've got to put on the discipline of saying not now. we, 0:36:23.850 --> 0:36:25.690 you know, let's have a conversation about when we're going 0:36:25.730 --> 0:36:27.290 to look at our phones and when we're not and 0:36:27.290 --> 0:36:29.169 when it's okay and when they need to be off 0:36:29.250 --> 0:36:31.969 and no responses and turn off the ring and the 0:36:31.969 --> 0:36:35.009 ding because that's just going to interfere with our us. 0:36:35.250 --> 0:36:38.850 Like that's a discipline we have to bring or the 0:36:38.850 --> 0:36:40.250 phone will get the better of us. 0:36:40.890 --> 0:36:43.450 I can hear a lot of our listeners thinking, maybe 0:36:43.489 --> 0:36:47.490 saying out loud, 000 yeah, 0000, this May. 0:36:47.530 --> 0:36:51.169 Yes, please call my husband, call my husband and tell him. 0:36:54.210 --> 0:36:57.850 Oh well, no, I think you're exactly right. And I'm 0:36:57.850 --> 0:37:00.049 glad to hear that there's research being done in that 0:37:00.050 --> 0:37:03.009 area to demonstrate it, because we see it all the 0:37:03.010 --> 0:37:04.810 time and feel it. 0:37:04.850 --> 0:37:05.810 You know, we do. 0:37:06.770 --> 0:37:11.370 Ron, is there a way to know what my dysregulation 0:37:11.370 --> 0:37:16.730 or my style of reacting or interacting with my spouse is? 0:37:17.290 --> 0:37:20.890 Yes, absolutely. Um, the book The Mindful Marriage is going 0:37:20.930 --> 0:37:23.469 to walk you through a through a process. It's a 0:37:23.469 --> 0:37:26.069 little bit of a workbook. There's some working exercises in 0:37:26.070 --> 0:37:29.109 it and it's very revealing. And I guarantee you you're 0:37:29.110 --> 0:37:31.750 going to learn a lot about yourself. So that's one way. 0:37:31.750 --> 0:37:34.589 Just get the book and start in. But if you 0:37:34.590 --> 0:37:37.310 want to just do a quick assessment, we've pulled the 0:37:37.310 --> 0:37:40.350 assessment out and we've put it online. People can go 0:37:40.350 --> 0:37:46.110 to worthy assessment. That's worthy pub as in worthy publishers 0:37:46.110 --> 0:37:49.469 who's doing our book assessment. And you're going to be 0:37:49.469 --> 0:37:52.550 able to figure out your reactive coping style. Every person 0:37:52.550 --> 0:37:56.589 on the planet does this. And we've talked about blame, shame, 0:37:56.590 --> 0:37:59.750 control and escape. You're going to sort of discover which 0:37:59.750 --> 0:38:03.070 you're prone to. And I'll just tell you, some people 0:38:03.070 --> 0:38:06.390 just do one for the most part. Some people are awful. 0:38:06.430 --> 0:38:08.670 Nan would tell you she's all for and that she 0:38:08.670 --> 0:38:12.189 does them all really, really well. I have a couple 0:38:12.190 --> 0:38:15.870 of them that I'm exceedingly good at. Um, you'll discover 0:38:15.870 --> 0:38:19.230 who you are. And here's the interesting thing about it. 0:38:19.230 --> 0:38:21.370 And the important thing about this is, like, once you 0:38:21.370 --> 0:38:24.089 identify that, you could start seeing it show up when 0:38:24.090 --> 0:38:26.970 you're driving down the highway and somebody cuts you off 0:38:26.969 --> 0:38:30.049 and you do the quick there's your one of your 0:38:30.090 --> 0:38:31.690 four is going to show up right there. In that 0:38:31.690 --> 0:38:35.210 moment when a child disobeys or disrespects, you're going to 0:38:35.210 --> 0:38:39.529 feel that dysregulation. When you feel like you've lost connection 0:38:39.530 --> 0:38:43.129 with your spouse or a family member or your mother 0:38:43.130 --> 0:38:45.609 offered another criticism, you're going to feel it and you're 0:38:45.610 --> 0:38:49.250 going to notice this thing showing up in you. That's 0:38:49.250 --> 0:38:54.170 the beginning of the journey to saying, that's my old self, Lord, 0:38:54.170 --> 0:38:56.089 how do I find my new self and put it 0:38:56.090 --> 0:38:59.049 on in this moment and take charge of this pain? 0:38:59.530 --> 0:39:02.529 Because that's where the discipline comes in and where we 0:39:02.530 --> 0:39:06.049 get transformed. And so the work starts just by doing 0:39:06.050 --> 0:39:08.290 that little assessment. 0:39:08.290 --> 0:39:10.210 I think that'll be helpful to a lot of people. 0:39:11.010 --> 0:39:14.130 Let's just reiterate those four main ways. You mentioned them 0:39:14.130 --> 0:39:16.170 a couple of times, but let's make sure our listeners 0:39:16.170 --> 0:39:19.250 hear the four main ways that we respond. 0:39:20.030 --> 0:39:22.390 Yeah. So in context, a lot of people have heard 0:39:22.390 --> 0:39:25.870 about fight or flight reactivity in the brain. And yes, 0:39:26.190 --> 0:39:30.270 fight and flight takes on four reactive expressions. All right. 0:39:30.270 --> 0:39:33.149 That's what these coping styles are. And they're blame. That 0:39:33.150 --> 0:39:36.469 is there's something about you that's making me feel what 0:39:36.469 --> 0:39:40.230 I'm feeling. Shame. There must be something about me that 0:39:40.230 --> 0:39:44.629 makes me unacceptable or unlovable. Control. Well, I'm just going 0:39:44.630 --> 0:39:46.750 to take charge of this situation and make it happen 0:39:46.750 --> 0:39:52.029 on my way. My timetable. Criticism. Um. Performance. That's the 0:39:52.030 --> 0:39:54.790 thing I'm really good at. That's all sort of forms 0:39:54.790 --> 0:39:58.950 of control. And then the last one is escape. And Gary, 0:39:58.950 --> 0:40:02.030 that one has multiple forms. I mean, you can escape 0:40:02.030 --> 0:40:05.509 into your phone and FB your partner like we were 0:40:05.510 --> 0:40:10.430 just talking about, but you can escape into porn, alcohol, drugs, gambling, 0:40:11.070 --> 0:40:17.390 excessive work. You can escape into, um, appearance, shopping, spending money. 0:40:18.150 --> 0:40:21.370 Those are all forms of I run to something to 0:40:21.410 --> 0:40:24.050 try to rescue me from the pain that I'm feeling 0:40:24.050 --> 0:40:29.810 in our essence. Again, blame, shame, control, escape. Seem to be, 0:40:30.810 --> 0:40:33.450 you know, on one level they seem to be helpful, 0:40:34.010 --> 0:40:37.250 but all they do is mask the pain and actually 0:40:37.250 --> 0:40:40.850 just create more difficulty. Because now we're bringing something negative 0:40:41.130 --> 0:40:44.489 back into the isness. And it's not just what triggered us, 0:40:44.489 --> 0:40:48.129 but it's now what we're contributing and it just escalates 0:40:48.130 --> 0:40:50.650 in all the wrong directions. 0:40:51.969 --> 0:40:54.089 Well, one of the most powerful aspects I think of 0:40:54.090 --> 0:40:58.250 the book is how you're so vulnerable, you and man, 0:40:58.250 --> 0:41:01.930 and dealing with your own pain cycles. Uh, we talked 0:41:01.930 --> 0:41:03.930 about this a little to begin with, but why are 0:41:03.930 --> 0:41:04.970 you so honest? 0:41:05.530 --> 0:41:07.650 Yeah, well, you know. 0:41:07.810 --> 0:41:10.969 It's a good question, Gary. And honestly, I think our 0:41:10.969 --> 0:41:13.970 profession has not done a good job of this. I, 0:41:13.969 --> 0:41:17.770 I see pastors and marriage and family teachers and Bible 0:41:17.950 --> 0:41:23.750 teachers who maintain a really good image. And I get it. 0:41:23.750 --> 0:41:25.870 I did that for a long time. I kind of 0:41:25.910 --> 0:41:28.710 think we think we're going to lose our ministry or something, 0:41:29.350 --> 0:41:32.989 but at the end of the day, um, what's attractive 0:41:32.989 --> 0:41:38.790 about humbling down is that other people go, oh, it's 0:41:38.790 --> 0:41:42.830 not just me. If that's Ron and he's that guy 0:41:42.870 --> 0:41:45.750 doing that thing right in those books, doing that, speaking that, whatever, 0:41:46.910 --> 0:41:49.190 then it's not just me and I'm not so horrible. 0:41:49.310 --> 0:41:52.149 And we're all on this journey together, and I just 0:41:52.150 --> 0:41:56.190 think the church needs this desperately. How is it that 0:41:56.190 --> 0:41:59.670 we've had so many high profile church leaders fall in 0:41:59.670 --> 0:42:03.790 the last ten years? Pride, and we sort of let 0:42:03.790 --> 0:42:06.509 them get away with it. And nobody's saying we got 0:42:06.510 --> 0:42:09.430 to be humble. Every single one of us has got 0:42:09.430 --> 0:42:11.270 to fall on our knees before the Lord every single 0:42:11.270 --> 0:42:13.870 day of our life. So Nana and I, through our journey, 0:42:14.550 --> 0:42:18.489 we've just decided we're going to be real. We're doing 0:42:18.489 --> 0:42:22.730 a mindful marriage conference for churches. And in that conference, 0:42:23.530 --> 0:42:28.210 often we are working through on stage something that happened 0:42:28.210 --> 0:42:31.130 while we traveled to that event, because travel happens to 0:42:31.130 --> 0:42:33.450 be one of my triggers. And so I kind of 0:42:33.450 --> 0:42:35.930 get dysregulated and then we have to deal with it. 0:42:35.930 --> 0:42:38.529 And we've decided we're not going to be phony. We're 0:42:38.530 --> 0:42:40.330 going to be as real as we can be and 0:42:40.330 --> 0:42:43.250 show people how we're making use of this in real 0:42:43.290 --> 0:42:46.609 time so that they, too, can find hope in that 0:42:46.610 --> 0:42:50.770 and find the ability to to emulate it. And so 0:42:50.770 --> 0:42:53.810 I just think it's time we lead out. And here's 0:42:53.810 --> 0:42:55.650 the thing I've learned, and I know you know this, Gary, 0:42:55.650 --> 0:42:58.690 I'm preaching to the choir right now. But when somebody 0:42:58.690 --> 0:43:02.170 is vulnerable and honest and humble, first in a small group, 0:43:02.530 --> 0:43:06.250 in a Bible study, in a church, when somebody goes first, 0:43:06.730 --> 0:43:10.930 other people will immediately follow. Yeah, but if nobody goes first, 0:43:11.489 --> 0:43:15.210 everybody pretends. And everybody keeps the face and the appearance 0:43:15.210 --> 0:43:19.549 and and the and we lose the deep intimacy and 0:43:19.550 --> 0:43:23.630 connection that God wants us to have as his children. 0:43:23.910 --> 0:43:25.670 And so somebody's got to go first. 0:43:26.670 --> 0:43:29.350 I fully agree with that. Now, we talked a bit 0:43:29.350 --> 0:43:33.830 earlier about how people can misuse the five love languages. Uh, 0:43:33.830 --> 0:43:39.109 do couples, uh, make couples also misuse the insights of 0:43:39.110 --> 0:43:40.469 the of the pain cycle? 0:43:41.110 --> 0:43:41.590 Yes. 0:43:41.790 --> 0:43:44.270 Uh, we actually have a little section in the book. Uh, 0:43:44.270 --> 0:43:46.950 once we've walked them through and they've discovered their pain 0:43:46.950 --> 0:43:48.790 and peace cycle, what to do about it? We then 0:43:48.790 --> 0:43:51.549 we give them the cautions. All right, hold on, because 0:43:51.550 --> 0:43:54.830 here's a here's one of the major ones. Oh, I 0:43:54.870 --> 0:43:56.870 now know more about your pain than I've ever known 0:43:56.870 --> 0:43:59.190 in the past. And I can use it against you. 0:44:00.030 --> 0:44:00.310 Mm. 0:44:00.350 --> 0:44:03.750 That's dirty play and not fair. And you want to 0:44:03.750 --> 0:44:07.190 talk about breaking safety? That will do it really, really fast. 0:44:07.190 --> 0:44:10.629 Somebody finally gets vulnerable about what's deep in them, and 0:44:10.630 --> 0:44:12.910 then you use it against them. And the other thing 0:44:12.910 --> 0:44:15.130 that we sometimes do, and I'm guilty of guilty of 0:44:15.130 --> 0:44:18.969 this one. I gotta, I gotta manage me is, um, 0:44:19.010 --> 0:44:22.370 I sense her dysregulation and and I'm like, I want 0:44:22.410 --> 0:44:25.009 to point that out to her, you know? I want 0:44:25.010 --> 0:44:28.009 to help her with her. What is that? That's control. 0:44:28.130 --> 0:44:30.410 That's my control thing kicking in again. Yeah. No, it 0:44:30.410 --> 0:44:32.529 is not my that's not my. My job is to 0:44:32.530 --> 0:44:35.810 be compassionate about her pain and curious about her pain, 0:44:35.810 --> 0:44:40.370 but to not take charge of that pain. So there's 0:44:40.370 --> 0:44:44.490 a lot of self control moments. But when you figure 0:44:44.489 --> 0:44:47.610 it out, when you get the pathway, I'm telling you, 0:44:48.330 --> 0:44:51.690 35 years I've been in marriage and family ministry. Nothing 0:44:51.690 --> 0:44:55.049 has impacted my walk with Christ or my marriage. More 0:44:55.050 --> 0:44:56.969 than this. 0:44:57.290 --> 0:44:59.969 As we come near the end of our time together, 0:44:59.969 --> 0:45:02.890 let's talk a little bit more about how we can 0:45:02.890 --> 0:45:06.690 help the church be more open to the kind of 0:45:06.690 --> 0:45:09.770 things we're talking about here and understanding, you know, the 0:45:09.770 --> 0:45:13.250 brain and all of these things and how they affect us, 0:45:13.250 --> 0:45:16.189 even though we're not even thinking about it so much 0:45:16.190 --> 0:45:16.790 of the time. 0:45:17.350 --> 0:45:17.790 Yeah. 0:45:18.469 --> 0:45:22.069 Well, we know from Communio that 80% of churches don't 0:45:22.070 --> 0:45:24.950 spend a dime on marriage, education, or ministry in a 0:45:24.950 --> 0:45:31.230 given calendar year, and 75% of churches do don't do 0:45:31.350 --> 0:45:35.310 more than three activities in a given year. Even if 0:45:35.310 --> 0:45:37.870 a church doesn't spend any money, they do a small group. 0:45:37.950 --> 0:45:43.510 They have a retreat. They do three or less. That's 75%. 0:45:43.510 --> 0:45:47.390 Only 25% of churches will do more than that. In 0:45:47.390 --> 0:45:50.510 other words, we really don't seem to be that invested 0:45:50.670 --> 0:45:55.469 in helping couples thrive, let alone stay married. And I 0:45:55.469 --> 0:45:59.670 don't get that. Uh, you and I both know that 0:45:59.670 --> 0:46:02.470 the context in which we live our most intimate relationships 0:46:02.469 --> 0:46:05.469 is where God is also growing us up into the 0:46:05.469 --> 0:46:08.550 image of Christ. You want to talk about discipleship? Everything 0:46:08.550 --> 0:46:11.469 we've been talking about today isn't is discipleship. It is 0:46:11.469 --> 0:46:14.930 growing me. It is maturing me to be more like Jesus. 0:46:14.930 --> 0:46:18.850 And marriage is the avenue through which God does that. Yes, 0:46:18.850 --> 0:46:20.850 we got to study the Bible. Yes, we need to 0:46:20.850 --> 0:46:23.730 teach it. And yes, we need to figure out how 0:46:23.730 --> 0:46:27.569 to do relationships. And the church really needs to get 0:46:27.570 --> 0:46:33.010 more active in that way. And not just fun, you know, 0:46:33.010 --> 0:46:36.410 sermons that make people laugh or date nights. I'm all 0:46:36.410 --> 0:46:40.130 for date nights and good entertainment and a good laugh. 0:46:40.130 --> 0:46:42.170 And let's go out and have a good time, honey. 0:46:42.170 --> 0:46:44.810 But if that's all we ever get to in our 0:46:44.810 --> 0:46:49.290 marriage ministry, then I'm not really being challenged. I'm not 0:46:49.290 --> 0:46:52.089 really growing. I'm just allowed to laugh and stay as 0:46:52.090 --> 0:46:55.810 I am. Yeah, no, we can mature. We can do 0:46:55.810 --> 0:46:59.890 more than that. Um, I want to invite church leaders 0:47:00.090 --> 0:47:03.689 and couples, because often the couples listening to us right 0:47:03.690 --> 0:47:04.770 now are the ones that are going to go to 0:47:04.810 --> 0:47:09.130 their pastor and say, hey, we got an idea. Let's 0:47:09.130 --> 0:47:11.910 do more. Let's dive in. Let's get into the into 0:47:11.910 --> 0:47:15.670 the deep end with people's lives and relationships, in particular 0:47:15.670 --> 0:47:21.390 marriage and parenting and family, because so much good happens 0:47:21.630 --> 0:47:25.070 when we help people do that. And the next generation 0:47:25.310 --> 0:47:28.469 comes to know the praiseworthy deeds of the Lord. 0:47:29.030 --> 0:47:29.470 Yeah. 0:47:30.510 --> 0:47:33.350 Well, I think this book is going to help that process. 0:47:33.350 --> 0:47:35.710 And I just want to encourage our listeners, if you're 0:47:35.710 --> 0:47:38.110 a lay leader in a church and you lead small groups, 0:47:38.110 --> 0:47:40.509 this is a book you want to get yourself. You 0:47:40.510 --> 0:47:42.870 want to process it yourself, work through it in your 0:47:42.870 --> 0:47:45.750 own marriage. And I think you'll want to be using 0:47:45.750 --> 0:47:49.430 it in small groups in your church. So, Ron, thanks 0:47:49.430 --> 0:47:51.550 for being with us today and thanks to you and 0:47:51.550 --> 0:47:54.629 Ann for putting this together and sharing your own, your 0:47:54.630 --> 0:47:58.989 own journey in such a practical way. Thanks again for 0:47:58.989 --> 0:48:00.910 all that you have done and are doing. 0:48:01.230 --> 0:48:05.190 Well, you endorse this book and we are very grateful. And, uh, 0:48:05.190 --> 0:48:06.870 we just pray the Lord will use it. 0:48:08.430 --> 0:48:11.250 Well, Ron mentioned that assessment a few minutes ago. And 0:48:11.250 --> 0:48:18.170 to discover your reactive coping style, go to Worthy Pub Assessment. 0:48:18.330 --> 0:48:24.930 Again worthy pub. Assessment and the book is at our website. 0:48:24.930 --> 0:48:30.050 Building relationships. Us the Mindful Marriage. Create your best relationship 0:48:30.290 --> 0:48:36.690 through understanding and managing yourself. Again, go to building relationships us. 0:48:36.690 --> 0:48:39.650 And next week. What does it mean to be pro 0:48:39.650 --> 0:48:40.690 abundant life? 0:48:41.090 --> 0:48:44.649 The president and CEO of Care Net, Rolland Warren will 0:48:44.650 --> 0:48:48.050 join us. A big thank you to our production team today. 0:48:48.090 --> 0:48:51.970 Steve Wick and Janice backing building relationships with Doctor Gary 0:48:51.969 --> 0:48:55.250 Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in 0:48:55.250 --> 0:48:59.730 association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. 0:48:59.770 --> 0:49:00.730 Thanks for listening.