S1: The wheels on their marriage bus nearly came off. How
S1: did they manage to survive? Find out straight ahead.
S2: There's a lot of self-control moments, but when you figure
S2: it out, when you get the pathway. I'm telling you.
S2: 35 years I've been in marriage and family ministry. Nothing
S2: has impacted my walk with Christ or my marriage.
UU: More than this.
S1: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S1: the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages Today
S1: Practical Help for Couples who Are Struggling. Rondale will talk
S1: about the mindful marriage and how neuroscience and the Bible
S1: can help you stop the painful patterns in a troubled relationship.
S3: You know Ron, from his writing about the blended family
S3: and answering questions about step parenting, I think this new
S3: resource is going to be a great help to any
S3: couple who wants to build a stronger connection. You can
S3: find our featured resource at the website Building Relationships Us
S3: and Gary, it strikes me this two prong approach of
S3: understanding yourself and how you respond to your spouse goes
S3: right along with the love language concept.
S4: Well, I think it does. I think there are parallels there, certainly.
S4: This book, however, is a really great in-depth study. I
S4: think any couple working through this book, it'd be like
S4: sitting down with a counselor and working through some stuff.
S4: So I'm excited about our discussion today.
S3: Well, let's welcome back the director of Family Life Blended
S3: and president of Smart Stepfamilies, Ron Deal. He's the most
S3: widely read and viewed author on blended families in the country.
S3: He and his wife, Nan, were married in 1986, and
S3: they've written this new book together, The Mindful Marriage. Create
S3: your best relationship through understanding and Managing Yourself. You can
S3: find out more at Building Relationships us.
S4: Well, Ron, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S2: It's good to be to be with you again, Gary.
S2: You're a good friend, and I always enjoy talking with you.
S4: Well, I feel the same way. Enjoyed writing a book
S4: with you earlier. We can mention that later, perhaps, but
S4: this book I'm really, really excited about. Well, Ron, I
S4: think there are many of our listeners who have never
S4: heard the story of your and Nan's struggle in your marriage,
S4: in which you really got to the place where you
S4: felt like things were falling apart. I've told my story
S4: many times, of course, with Carolyn, but tell us about
S4: that and the road that you've been on since then.
S2: You know, through the years, um, we have told many
S2: people privately that story. And on occasion, when it made sense,
S2: it's entered into my public teaching. Um, but we just
S2: really felt like it was time to go all out. Uh,
S2: not that we were hiding it all along, but that
S2: we just didn't really know how to verbalize the story.
S2: And candidly, we were still working on us in a
S2: way that we wanted to get further in our journey
S2: before we could really share it. And so four years ago,
S2: we went to our therapist, Doctor Terry Hargrave, who in
S2: this book, we tell everybody how he has been developing
S2: a strategy and approach to working with couples for many years.
S2: And it's used around the world at this point. But
S2: mostly the academic community is the only people who know
S2: about it. And we went to him and said, you know,
S2: you changed our life and we're absolutely in love with
S2: everything that you've done. We've been teaching it and counseling
S2: and using it for years and years at this point,
S2: and we just want to share it with the world.
S2: Can can we partner with you and your wife Sharon?
S2: And can the four of us write this book and
S2: make it accessible for the average person? And that's what
S2: the mindful marriage has become. It is our testimony and
S2: testimony of our mess and how the Hargraves changed all
S2: that with their principles that they are now teaching and
S2: have been has been taught academically for years, and we're
S2: just trying to make it accessible to everybody because we
S2: know how powerful it really is.
S4: Yeah. Well, you know, I think when we share our
S4: own journey, it does help people because they realize, oh,
S4: they're not perfect. Oh, they've been there.
S2: That's exactly right, Gary. And people are attracted to that.
S4: Absolutely. And I'm encouraged that you've chosen to do that.
S4: You know, it turns out that your counselor, Doctor Terry Hargrave,
S4: has innovated a model of therapy that you've talked about
S4: that is beginning to gain recognition. Tell us about restoration therapy,
S4: which is the term that's used and how does it
S4: relate to this book, Mindful marriages.
S2: Well, first of all, let me just say it is
S2: deeply Christian. Restoration therapy has its roots in the New
S2: Testament language of old self and new self. We've all
S2: heard a good sermon about how we should take off
S2: our old self and put on our new. That's the
S2: language Paul uses over and over and over again. And
S2: if you're like me, you you go, yeah, that's right.
S2: I need to go do that. And then you go
S2: home and you have another bad moment where you just
S2: do the same thing again and you're like, how do
S2: I take it off and put it on? And that's
S2: the core of what restoration Therapy really does. But it
S2: also integrates the best of what we know of from
S2: neuroscience and how the brain body works. Over the last
S2: 20 years, we've learned so much that's integrated what we
S2: know about what we call attachment. That is the emotional,
S2: psychological connection that we all have in important relationships. How
S2: that gets flushed out in a in a marriage context specifically.
S2: So neuroscience, attachment, self-regulation, big term. We can unpack that
S2: a little bit. But the but the biblical word for
S2: that is self-control. That's not a new idea, but it
S2: turns out learning how to do it just takes a
S2: huge discipline. And then there's this issue of pride and
S2: humility and how pride works against our relationships, and humility
S2: works for it. All of those concepts are rolled up
S2: into this what's called restoration therapy, the mindful marriage at
S2: the end of the day. Mindfulness is a word. A
S2: lot of people kind of go, well, what's that? That
S2: sounds a little new agey. No, no, no, no it's not.
S2: It's the Bible is replete with using the term in
S2: the form of what? Romans 12. Be transformed by the
S2: renewing of your mind. Like that's what we're helping people
S2: to actually do not just know what they should do,
S2: but actually take off that old self and put on
S2: the new and start doing it. That's what this approach
S2: is really, really great at.
S4: Well, in the book you use the term us ness.
S4: Us ness. What is that and how does emotional dysregulation
S4: affect it?
S2: Well, yeah. Your essence is that thing that you created
S2: on the day you got married. It's it's a living,
S2: breathing organism that exists as a result of marital commitment,
S2: love and trustworthiness to one another. It's what you are
S2: together that is far more than the sum of the
S2: two people. You know, I've often thought we do the
S2: unity candle maybe a little bit backwards. Um, you know,
S2: he takes his candle, she takes hers, and they light
S2: the center candle. And then, you know, traditionally you blow
S2: yourself out at that point and it's like, whoa, wait
S2: a minute, where did you go? You don't actually die.
S2: You don't you don't stop becoming a person or being
S2: a person. As a matter of fact, you should keep
S2: those individual candles lit and then step back from the
S2: unity candle and go, okay, there's you, there's me, and
S2: there's our essence. That's the thing in the middle that
S2: we have created, that we are committed to, to use
S2: the biblical language that we're going to feed and nurture
S2: and care for. It's like a child, Gary. It's it's
S2: the child that you it results because of your love
S2: and dedication to one another. But you do got to
S2: feed that child. You better take care of it. You
S2: better teach it. You better instruct it. You better pour
S2: into it. And then that helps that child grow up.
S2: And your essence is exactly the same when your essence
S2: is at peace. Each partner is being fed by it,
S2: and each partner thrives within it. You feel safe. You
S2: feel whole. You. You naturally give. And here's the thing
S2: you naturally give the best of yourself back to the essence.
S2: So you get fed and you turn around and feed it.
S2: But when your essence is in pain, here's what we
S2: know that one or both partners is sort of neurologically dysregulated,
S2: and we can flesh that out in a minute. And
S2: essentially it means you feel insecure. You're feeling anxious about
S2: your worth, about how much they want you, or how
S2: much you want them. And do you feel safe to
S2: give of yourself in this relationship? That's what the dysregulation
S2: is about the US. It feels like our flame is
S2: about to blow out. It feels like the flame is
S2: getting smaller. And I'm not feeling great about that any moment.
S2: And here's what's crazy about dysregulation. It comes in a heartbeat.
S2: All of us listening right now who have ever been
S2: in any sort of close, intimate relationship, especially a marriage
S2: you've had those days where everything's clicking and you are
S2: just loving one another, and then one of you makes
S2: a remark and in a nanosecond you are against each other. Like,
S2: it's like what just happened in that moment. We loved
S2: each other. I made a comment. You heard something? Or
S2: maybe I meant it. Harsh, but you heard harsh. And
S2: now you got your heels dug in and I'm defensive. Offensive.
S2: Where did our looseness go? In that moment, we can
S2: all relate to this. There's something happening in those moments
S2: that brings out the worst of us when we're at peace.
S2: It brings the best of us when we're at pain
S2: or in pain. It brings out the worst of us.
S2: We all know it. We've all been there. We all
S2: feel it. And it doesn't mean our relationship is horrible.
S2: It just means that moment something's off. Yeah, there is
S2: a beauty in that. And there is a challenge and
S2: an art to learning how to feed and care and
S2: nurture that essence in a way that keeps it at peace.
S5: Yeah.
S4: And it's a journey, right?
S5: Yes. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.
S2: And I and here's the thing I've learned about dysregulation.
S2: Everybody on the planet gets dysregulated. Everybody feels a little
S2: anxious and insecure and nervous. And another word is triggered.
S2: Discombobulated where you just don't feel like things are going
S2: well in your relationship. Even if it's just for a
S2: few moments or sometimes it's a season. For us, it
S2: rose to the to the point where Nan's like, I'm done,
S2: I don't want whatever we've got is I don't want
S2: it anymore. I mean, that was our crisis moment in
S2: 2007 that led us into Doctor Hargreaves office. And we
S2: tell that whole story in the book. Like that was
S2: a huge dysregulated moment for us. We all do this.
S2: We all know what it feels like. And the question
S2: is why? Then? You know, when that happens, I become
S2: my worst self. How do I stay? How do I
S2: stay in my Christ? Mature new self? In those moments,
S2: that's what we are getting at. And so it really
S2: is core to how we do marriage.
S3: Can I jump in and ask you how bad it got?
S3: I know Nan said, I don't want, but was it,
S3: you know, From your perspective, what were those days like? And,
S3: you know, the darkness that you were in?
S2: Well, it was deeply frightening. Um, at the end of
S2: the day, I can tell you now that she didn't
S2: really want a divorce. She didn't really want to leave.
S2: She was just sick and tired of what we had,
S2: that she didn't know how to live with it. And
S2: by the way, I really think that's a common experience.
S2: What I've learned is, well, we talk about in the
S2: book the two pillars that every relationship needs to have.
S2: It's got to have love. Love gives you a sense
S2: of identity, a sense of your worth and belonging and
S2: value in the relationship. But you also have to have trust.
S2: And trust gives you safety. It gives you a sense
S2: that I'm safe within your arms, within this relationship. Most people,
S2: when they before long before they get a divorce, they
S2: fall out of safety with one another and then fall
S2: out of love with one another. I would say in 2007,
S2: Nan had fallen out of safety with me. She didn't
S2: believe that I was there for her, that she could
S2: count on me, that our relationship was being fed and nurtured. And,
S2: you know, we were trying and we had plenty of
S2: wonderful moments, but we had more and more and more
S2: dysregulated moments. And that just grew to a place where
S2: she was like, I don't know how to live with this.
S2: So she didn't really want to end our marriage, but
S2: she didn't know how to live with it either. And
S2: so it was that moment of and of course, that
S2: hit me between the eyes like, oh, wow. I knew
S2: we were struggling. Didn't realize it was that bad. On
S2: your side. I don't think it's that bad. You know
S2: which one of us is right now we're arguing about
S2: how bad we are, you know? That's a fun little
S2: place to be. And so it was like, clearly, something's
S2: got to change. Clearly, we need some outside help. And
S2: that's where we saw it. I will say this, um,
S2: I didn't think we were that bad off. Now you
S2: can go. Was that denial? Was that and I've learned
S2: that I'm really good at counter blame. So in my
S2: mind it's not nearly as bad as it is in
S2: her mind. And so I can make her the problem
S2: with that. And and that's what I did initially. And
S2: it was only when I ended up in Terry's office
S2: that I began a journey that he unfortunately and fortunately
S2: forced me into, where I had to look deeply into
S2: the mirror at my own pride and discover that man,
S2: I'm blind to me. And if I don't wake up, uh,
S2: what what Nan and I have is just going to
S2: keep getting worse. And Nan had a whole side on,
S2: you know, she would tell you she had a whole
S2: lot that she had to work on, too. This is
S2: not a one person problem. This was a two person problem.
S2: But I was not willing to look at myself until
S2: that moment.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Because by nature, all of us, when a situation like that,
S4: we're really thinking it's the other problem. It's the other person.
S4: If they would, if they would change. But you're right.
S4: It has to be. It has to be both of us.
S4: Because we're we're the essence is there.
S5: So exactly.
S2: And we're both responsible for our essence and to it.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Now you talk a lot about neurology of interpersonal relationships.
S4: Explain that. And why is it important?
S2: Well, um, you know, I think there's a, the experience of,
S2: you know, having bad moments and just becoming upset or
S2: angry at your partner or critical of them or feeling
S2: their criticism, and you get defensive, like, those are the
S2: words that we all put on it. But in the
S2: last 25 years, we've learned what's going on below the surface.
S2: That is what's embodied in our mind, body and and brain.
S2: And it kind of goes like this as we Experience
S2: moments in our childhood and adulthood where we don't quite
S2: feel loved or don't quite feel safe. Those two pillars
S2: we talked about when one or both of those is off,
S2: either from how we were parented, moments at home, or
S2: an early relationship, or maybe even a first marriage that
S2: our brain writes a little story about what that means
S2: for us. Oh, what this means is the way this
S2: is Ron's story that I've learned about myself. What this
S2: means is the way Ron shows his adequacy is by
S2: excelling at his work, by performing really well, by doing
S2: his best. And so I was driven and I drove
S2: so hard at my work and career and life and
S2: marriage and trying to be a good husband and father
S2: all at the same time. But at the end of
S2: the day, the husband part were really suffered. And that's
S2: what Nan was really reacting to in a, in a
S2: big way at that season of our life. And well,
S2: what's that about for me? Well, for for me, it's about.
S2: I don't want to feel inadequate. I don't want to
S2: feel like I'm not enough. Well, what's that about? Well,
S2: that pain came from the question that I had in
S2: my childhood about how I get my dad's love. And
S2: he had high expectations. And he was an evangelist and
S2: a wonderful man. I had great parents. And at the
S2: same time, I also knew if I didn't live up
S2: to the standards, that I might just lose their affection,
S2: their love. At least I sort of. That's the story
S2: I wrote for myself. I don't think that was actually
S2: true on any level, but I made it true. And
S2: so the story of my pain is if I'm inadequate,
S2: then I may not be loved and may not be safe.
S2: So you just perform really well. All right. Fast forward
S2: a little bit. That's the story my brain knows. So anytime,
S2: anytime in my marriage that I felt like I saw
S2: Nan's disappointment about me, I panicked. I went right into, oh,
S2: I'm not enough. And she's not going to be going
S2: to be satisfied with me, so I better get busy.
S2: And I would get busy in two ways. Um, by
S2: the way, this is a fight or flight reactivity. This
S2: is neurological. We all do. Fight or flight. Fight or
S2: flight takes four forms blame, shame, control or escape. Those
S2: are the four ways it comes out of us. Uh,
S2: I'm a good blamer I can counter blame. I can
S2: figure out what Nancy doesn't have. Right? And I can
S2: take her argument apart and, you know, go turn it
S2: around and make it about her. I'm also a control person,
S2: so I can control by performing, by doing and exceeding.
S2: I can also control by criticizing her at the end
S2: of the day. Blame and control tactics just make things
S2: worse because she doesn't feel heard. She doesn't feel understood.
S2: She just feels attacked. And oh, by the way, she
S2: has her own pain narrative from her childhood where nobody
S2: really listened to her ever. She just felt abandoned and
S2: all alone most of her life as a kid. And
S2: so whenever I would go into the mode of defending
S2: myself and proving her wrong, she basically heard, yep, I
S2: still don't have anybody on my side. And so our
S2: toupee narratives collide in our blame, shame, control and escape strategies.
S2: And it just makes things really ugly. Now here's you know,
S2: what's crazy about this is you can map this. I mean,
S2: once you understand this, and we take people in the
S2: mindful marriage through some exercises where you will map your
S2: pain cycle and you'll map their pain cycle and you'll
S2: see how these two things collide. It is amazing when
S2: you put it on paper and you go, oh my goodness,
S2: when we are great, we are fabulous. We are not
S2: like anything what we're seeing on this paper. But in
S2: our bad moments, this is exactly who we are. And
S2: you now know what your old self is and it's
S2: just as plain as day. Now you have the challenge
S2: of saying, how do I take that off and put
S2: on self-control and become what God has designed me to be.
S2: And we lead people through that process of discovering how
S2: you move toward peace. But it the neurological component here
S2: is important because at the end of the day, here's
S2: what it is that your brain wants to do, what
S2: it knows to do. And you have to overcome that
S2: by renewing your mind. Now notice what I just said.
S2: Romans 12 does not say be transformed by the renewing
S2: of your brain. It says to renew your mind. Your
S2: mind tells your brain and your body what it should do,
S2: not what it knows to do, not what it's got.
S2: A neurological rut that it loves to run down this
S2: rut towards blame and control. But this time, Ron, we
S2: need to move towards compassion and kindness and softness and
S2: gentleness and take off the blame and control. That's my
S2: mind telling my brain how to act. And that's when
S2: we get transformed. Like all of a sudden that old
S2: neurological self is slowly being pushed away. My sinful nature
S2: is being pushed away. That's what is transformative. And we've
S2: just we're just amazed at how far this has brought us,
S2: not just in our marriage, but at the end of
S2: the day, this is helping me walk with Christ.
S4: Yeah, I think many of our listeners, and maybe most
S4: people really don't think about the neurological, the neurological aspect
S4: and the what you're calling the pain narrative. We just
S4: know how we're responding, but we don't know, you know,
S4: the part that the brain is playing in all of that.
S4: So I think that that alone is is very, very
S4: helpful to people.
S2: And I'll just add this, Gary, it is a fascinating endeavor.
S2: The point is, this is a part of me and
S2: it is my job to manage me. Once I identify
S2: that neurological component, if you will, to my old self,
S2: then it's still my job. In humility before God to
S2: start managing that. Most of us spend our entire life,
S2: as you said earlier, very insightfully. By the way, most
S2: of us spend our entire life trying to get our
S2: spouse to love us or do something different in such
S2: a way that the pain I feel goes away. Now
S2: notice that is Matthew seven. That is me focusing on
S2: the little tiny speck in your eye while I've got
S2: this huge log in my eye that I'm totally ignoring.
S2: And so I obsess over the speck in your eye. Well,
S2: that doesn't help either one of us deal with the log.
S2: I can't get Nan to love me in such a
S2: way that I all that I feel adequate. She can't
S2: love that into me. It's not up to her. It's
S2: up to me. And I really think this is so
S2: vital to the Christian walk and how we portray our
S2: lives with one another in marriage. That I'm just telling you,
S2: I don't think we talk this talk very well. We
S2: we inadvertently sort of blame the victim. We say to
S2: the spouse, well, what can you do to help Ron
S2: not feel inadequate and insecure about himself? Well, she can
S2: be kind and nice and do certain things that help me,
S2: but that is neurological. It is in my brain. It's
S2: in my it's embodied in me. She can't love it
S2: out of me. It's inappropriate for us to assume she can.
S2: What needs to happen is Ron needs to take responsibility
S2: for Ron, and that's when I can grow up in Christ.
S2: And so as this message pours out, it's sort of like, wow, okay,
S2: stop blaming the victim, Ron. Start dealing with yourself.
S3: You know, I said at the beginning of the program
S3: that that this reminds me of dovetails with the love
S3: language concept. It also dovetails with what I've heard Gary
S3: say through the years. And that is marriage is a
S3: lot of work. It takes.
S5: Work.
S3: And we often think, well, we love each other. We're compatible.
S3: It ought to be, you know, bonbons and cotton candy
S3: all the time. And it's not. It does take work,
S3: doesn't it?
S2: It does, Chris. And I'm so glad you brought this up, because,
S2: you know, Gary and I wrote a book together, Building
S2: Love Together and Blended Families, where we apply some of
S2: the smart step family principles I have with Gary's love
S2: languages in our book. This actually is a bonus section
S2: that we have some bonus material online that people can
S2: can get for free, and we write about how people
S2: misuse your love language principles with what I'm talking about.
S2: How many times have you heard somebody say, well, my
S2: love language is and you got to get my wife
S2: to love me that way. No, the whole point in
S2: your principles is to for me to be selfless and
S2: start looking at how I can serve my spouse rather
S2: than demand that they serve me. But I know you've
S2: had people misuse that for years and years and years.
S2: What is that? That is what I've been talking about.
S2: We want the other to love me in such a
S2: way that I don't feel any pain in my heart
S2: and life anymore. That will never, ever work. I'm the
S2: one who has to deal with the log in my eye.
S2: And here's what Doctor Hargrave has taught me. There is
S2: a quick fix about. Oh, if you'll just, you know,
S2: love me in a certain way, then my my, my
S2: log will leave my life. Well, no, that's like cotton candy.
S2: Your spouse can make you feel good for a few minutes.
S2: But what is neurological in your brain? Embodied in your soul?
S2: You are going to hang on to until the day
S2: you reckon with it, until you start taking charge of it.
S2: It's not even up to God. And let me explain that. Uh,
S2: we all know better than we act. Why is that?
S2: Because we understand God's will for our life. But that
S2: doesn't mean we mean we actually do it. Discipleship is
S2: about me aligning my will with God's will. That's when
S2: I get transformed. That's when God's really in charge of
S2: my life. That's when I make him king is when
S2: I align my will with his. And that means I
S2: have to deal with what my body brain, soul wants
S2: to do. So until I take charge of that, I'm
S2: just going to walk around with a log in my eye,
S2: blaming everybody else for all the stuff they do wrong.
S2: That that that makes me what I am. And that
S2: is a losing game for any marriage.
S1: You're listening to the podcast Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S1: Find out more about the program, when Gary might be
S1: coming to your area, and our featured resource at Building
S1: Relationships Us. Our guest today is Ron Deal, co-author with
S1: his wife, Nan, of the new book, The Mindful Marriage.
S1: Just go to go to building. Just go to building relationships.
S1: Us to find out more.
S4: And we talked about the old self and the new self.
S4: You know, the biblical concept. But putting off the old
S4: self and the role that the patterns in our brain,
S4: how they influence us. And unless we're really thinking about it,
S4: we don't we don't see that. How does humility fit
S4: into to this whole thing of understanding the other person,
S4: understanding yourself and and processing all those?
S2: So in the mindful marriage, we're going to walk people
S2: into an understanding of their pain cycle and the story
S2: of pain in their life and what it leads them
S2: to do, how they react and blame, shame, control and escape.
S2: We're then going to lead them to a place where
S2: they understand the peace cycle. That is. What does it
S2: look like to live out of God's truth rather than
S2: out of your pain? And once they've identified that, they
S2: have a very tangible map of how to change your life,
S2: how to be transformed by the renewing of their mind.
S2: And here's what we've learned. People won't do it unless
S2: they put on humility. At the end of the day,
S2: humility is the attitude that says, yeah, it's my job
S2: to deal with me. It is me and God working
S2: on me through the spirit power of the Holy Spirit.
S2: And and unless I, I bow the knee to the
S2: King every single day and say, Lord, help me, I
S2: won't actually change what I do. I'll just stay stuck
S2: in it. I may have the greatest knowledge I got
S2: this map in front of me. I now know me
S2: better than I've ever known me. And I won't change
S2: anything in real life because I still think in pride
S2: that I don't deserve this or I deserve better, or
S2: it's somebody else's fault or, you know, whatever it is
S2: that pushes it away from me. Humility is that posture
S2: that says, I'm getting really serious about who I am,
S2: and I'm bringing that before God and asking for his help.
S2: It's what activates the change in us, and without it,
S2: we're just stuck. And let me just pull back for
S2: a second and say there's an amazing principle taught in
S2: Scripture that, uh, I just continue to ponder and chew
S2: on and we talk about it in The Mindful Marriage,
S2: and it's repeated. I've lost track, I think, more than
S2: 35 times throughout the Bible, but it goes like this
S2: God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble.
S2: In a very simple way, here it is. If you
S2: come before God going, hey, I got life figured out.
S2: I don't need you and your rules. That's pride. He's
S2: going to oppose you. He's not going to let you
S2: stand before him with that attitude and get away with it.
S2: He just won't. He'll let you suffer the consequences of
S2: your choices. He'll bring something to your life that challenges
S2: your pride. Something is going to show up in the
S2: form of opposition. And we can just think of a
S2: character in the Bible, and you can probably identify those
S2: who did that and and how God opposed post them,
S2: but the opposite is also true. Stand before him in
S2: humility and say, Lord, I don't got. I don't got anything.
S2: I don't have anything figured out. I am nothing without you.
S2: I need you. And he runs to our side like
S2: the father and the prodigal son, and throws a coat
S2: around and said, you got it all. I'm here for you.
S2: You're my child. Grace abounds. Now, here's what I want
S2: people to hear today. I believe that principle doesn't just
S2: work vertically spiritually with God. It works horizontally with every
S2: relationship in our life, most notably in marriage. But it
S2: also works in parenting and leadership and pastoral care, whatever
S2: it is. I think politicians stand before people in pride
S2: and they will oppose you. Stand before your wife in
S2: pride and she will be sick and tired of you
S2: in a hurry. And next thing you know, she is
S2: pushing back somehow. But stand in humility when you make
S2: a mistake. When you find yourself getting. You know what?
S2: I feel inadequate right now. And it's my job to put, uh,
S2: rails guardrails on that. And I'm not going to take
S2: it out on you when I say that sort of
S2: thing out loud in front of my wife. She breathes
S2: a sigh of relief, and she, more likely than not,
S2: has grace for me. She softens. She has more compassion.
S2: She's more forgiving. She'll go the extra mile. Why? Because
S2: she sees Ron putting on humility and taking charge of himself.
S2: And when Ron does that, he is far more safe
S2: to be around. He's more approachable. But the opposite is
S2: also true. If I put on pride and go, hey, babe,
S2: this is your problem, not mine. All of a sudden
S2: she's in opposition to me and I am undoing myself.
S2: And I am undoing our looseness in pride. At the
S2: end of the day, this is the core thing that
S2: either makes the love languages helpful or not helpful. The
S2: mindful marriage principles helpful or not helpful. Just because you
S2: know it doesn't mean you'll do it. And humility is
S2: the thing that's going to activate your ability to follow through.
S4: I'm thinking about John 15 verse five where Jesus said,
S4: I am the vine, you are the branches. You stay
S4: connected to me. You bear fruit. And then this statement,
S4: without me you can do nothing.
S5: That's right.
S4: And I learned that early in my life. I'm glad
S4: that I did. That's why every day I'm crying out
S4: for wisdom. God, in this situation, this situation, this situation.
S4: I can't I can't do this. You know.
S2: Every single day that has to be our wake up posture.
S2: I often say, I've learned the hard way that we
S2: come to to Christ in humility. Lord, help me, I
S2: need you. Um, we walk with him in humility. You know,
S2: what does the Lord require of you? Act justly, love mercy,
S2: and walk humbly with your God. Micah six eight. And
S2: someday when he comes, every knee will bow and every
S2: tongue confess that Christ is. We're going to bow in
S2: humility when he comes. It's the before, it's the during,
S2: and it's the after of discipleship. And if we don't
S2: do that, then we really cannot learn any of the
S2: other virtues, a character, qualities that that we need to
S2: have to become more like Christ.
S4: Ron, in the book you use the term called phubbing.
S5: P.
S4: H e b b I n g. What is?
S5: It's a new word. It's a new word.
S4: And how might it affect all of this?
S2: Yeah. Well, you know, because of our mobile phone world. Um,
S2: psychologists have come up with a new term. This is
S2: partner phone snubbing. Phubbing is when you snub your partner
S2: for your phone. And everybody listening right now knows exactly
S2: what I'm talking about. It's. This has either happened to you.
S2: You've seen it. You've been in a restaurant and you
S2: see two people or a family sitting there, and nobody's
S2: talking to one another because they're all looking at their phone.
S2: Or you've been in bed at night and you're about
S2: to turn to your spouse and have a conversation, but
S2: they're looking at Facebook and you're like, huh? Well, I
S2: guess they're interested in that. Not so interested in me.
S2: And there you go. Phubbing is a micro affair. And
S2: what it says to the partner on the receiving end
S2: of that is you're not as important as this thing is.
S2: And you feel their disaffection. And it will dysregulate in a,
S2: in a micro moment because you're like, wait a minute,
S2: wait a minute. Do I have you or do I
S2: not have you? Am I important or am I not important?
S2: That's a form of dysregulation. And the next thing you know,
S2: you're probably going into blame, shame, control or escape. Escape.
S2: Looks like. Well, fine. I'll just look in my phone
S2: or I'll watch TV, or I'll go in the other
S2: room or I'm not talking to you either. That's the
S2: withdrawal thing. You know the shame factor. We haven't talked
S2: about shame yet. Talking about blaming control a little bit.
S2: Shame is, um. Oh, there must be something wrong with
S2: me that I'm uninteresting or not attractive or. Why would
S2: that draw your attention and I don't. And so it's
S2: this downgrading yourself talk that that's what shame does. So
S2: again everybody's a little different in how they respond in
S2: that moment. But you feel the lack of isness and
S2: it's going to be a real problem. There's already research.
S2: We haven't been doing the phone thing very long in
S2: our society, but there's already research that tells us that
S2: these little moments of disaffection can add up to a
S2: greater sense of insecurity within relationships. And by the way,
S2: this is affecting parenting, too. The parenting version of this
S2: they call techno ference. That's where it's interfering with the
S2: process of of parenting your children. You ask your child,
S2: would you please go clean your dishes and put them
S2: in the dishwasher. And and you turn to your phone
S2: and you stare into that, and 20 minutes later, you
S2: sort of pop out and you go, oh, your dishes
S2: are still there. Did you not finish it? And you've
S2: lost track of your child. You're not doing the behavioral
S2: management of your child because you got lost in your phone,
S2: and therefore you're more angry. You go find your child.
S2: You know, you're a little harsh because you were the
S2: one who got interfered with and didn't follow through. We're
S2: already seeing how this affects mothers and their nursing infant.
S2: And instead of staring into the eyes of the infant
S2: while the baby nurses, a mother is staring at her phone,
S2: looking away from the child they're already seeing the brain
S2: chemistry changes in infants because of techno ference phubbing. My
S2: message to people today is in terms of your sickness,
S2: this is not helpful. We've got to put on self control.
S2: We've got to put on the discipline of saying not now. we,
S2: you know, let's have a conversation about when we're going
S2: to look at our phones and when we're not and
S2: when it's okay and when they need to be off
S2: and no responses and turn off the ring and the
S2: ding because that's just going to interfere with our us.
S2: Like that's a discipline we have to bring or the
S2: phone will get the better of us.
S4: I can hear a lot of our listeners thinking, maybe
S4: saying out loud, 000 yeah, 0000, this May.
S5: Yes, please call my husband, call my husband and tell him.
S4: Oh well, no, I think you're exactly right. And I'm
S4: glad to hear that there's research being done in that
S4: area to demonstrate it, because we see it all the
S4: time and feel it.
S5: You know, we do.
S3: Ron, is there a way to know what my dysregulation
S3: or my style of reacting or interacting with my spouse is?
S2: Yes, absolutely. Um, the book The Mindful Marriage is going
S2: to walk you through a through a process. It's a
S2: little bit of a workbook. There's some working exercises in
S2: it and it's very revealing. And I guarantee you you're
S2: going to learn a lot about yourself. So that's one way.
S2: Just get the book and start in. But if you
S2: want to just do a quick assessment, we've pulled the
S2: assessment out and we've put it online. People can go
S2: to worthy assessment. That's worthy pub as in worthy publishers
S2: who's doing our book assessment. And you're going to be
S2: able to figure out your reactive coping style. Every person
S2: on the planet does this. And we've talked about blame, shame,
S2: control and escape. You're going to sort of discover which
S2: you're prone to. And I'll just tell you, some people
S2: just do one for the most part. Some people are awful.
S2: Nan would tell you she's all for and that she
S2: does them all really, really well. I have a couple
S2: of them that I'm exceedingly good at. Um, you'll discover
S2: who you are. And here's the interesting thing about it.
S2: And the important thing about this is, like, once you
S2: identify that, you could start seeing it show up when
S2: you're driving down the highway and somebody cuts you off
S2: and you do the quick there's your one of your
S2: four is going to show up right there. In that
S2: moment when a child disobeys or disrespects, you're going to
S2: feel that dysregulation. When you feel like you've lost connection
S2: with your spouse or a family member or your mother
S2: offered another criticism, you're going to feel it and you're
S2: going to notice this thing showing up in you. That's
S2: the beginning of the journey to saying, that's my old self, Lord,
S2: how do I find my new self and put it
S2: on in this moment and take charge of this pain?
S2: Because that's where the discipline comes in and where we
S2: get transformed. And so the work starts just by doing
S2: that little assessment.
S4: I think that'll be helpful to a lot of people.
S4: Let's just reiterate those four main ways. You mentioned them
S4: a couple of times, but let's make sure our listeners
S4: hear the four main ways that we respond.
S2: Yeah. So in context, a lot of people have heard
S2: about fight or flight reactivity in the brain. And yes,
S2: fight and flight takes on four reactive expressions. All right.
S2: That's what these coping styles are. And they're blame. That
S2: is there's something about you that's making me feel what
S2: I'm feeling. Shame. There must be something about me that
S2: makes me unacceptable or unlovable. Control. Well, I'm just going
S2: to take charge of this situation and make it happen
S2: on my way. My timetable. Criticism. Um. Performance. That's the
S2: thing I'm really good at. That's all sort of forms
S2: of control. And then the last one is escape. And Gary,
S2: that one has multiple forms. I mean, you can escape
S2: into your phone and FB your partner like we were
S2: just talking about, but you can escape into porn, alcohol, drugs, gambling,
S2: excessive work. You can escape into, um, appearance, shopping, spending money.
S2: Those are all forms of I run to something to
S2: try to rescue me from the pain that I'm feeling
S2: in our essence. Again, blame, shame, control, escape. Seem to be,
S2: you know, on one level they seem to be helpful,
S2: but all they do is mask the pain and actually
S2: just create more difficulty. Because now we're bringing something negative
S2: back into the isness. And it's not just what triggered us,
S2: but it's now what we're contributing and it just escalates
S2: in all the wrong directions.
S4: Well, one of the most powerful aspects I think of
S4: the book is how you're so vulnerable, you and man,
S4: and dealing with your own pain cycles. Uh, we talked
S4: about this a little to begin with, but why are
S4: you so honest?
S5: Yeah, well, you know.
S2: It's a good question, Gary. And honestly, I think our
S2: profession has not done a good job of this. I,
S2: I see pastors and marriage and family teachers and Bible
S2: teachers who maintain a really good image. And I get it.
S2: I did that for a long time. I kind of
S2: think we think we're going to lose our ministry or something,
S2: but at the end of the day, um, what's attractive
S2: about humbling down is that other people go, oh, it's
S2: not just me. If that's Ron and he's that guy
S2: doing that thing right in those books, doing that, speaking that, whatever,
S2: then it's not just me and I'm not so horrible.
S2: And we're all on this journey together, and I just
S2: think the church needs this desperately. How is it that
S2: we've had so many high profile church leaders fall in
S2: the last ten years? Pride, and we sort of let
S2: them get away with it. And nobody's saying we got
S2: to be humble. Every single one of us has got
S2: to fall on our knees before the Lord every single
S2: day of our life. So Nana and I, through our journey,
S2: we've just decided we're going to be real. We're doing
S2: a mindful marriage conference for churches. And in that conference,
S2: often we are working through on stage something that happened
S2: while we traveled to that event, because travel happens to
S2: be one of my triggers. And so I kind of
S2: get dysregulated and then we have to deal with it.
S2: And we've decided we're not going to be phony. We're
S2: going to be as real as we can be and
S2: show people how we're making use of this in real
S2: time so that they, too, can find hope in that
S2: and find the ability to to emulate it. And so
S2: I just think it's time we lead out. And here's
S2: the thing I've learned, and I know you know this, Gary,
S2: I'm preaching to the choir right now. But when somebody
S2: is vulnerable and honest and humble, first in a small group,
S2: in a Bible study, in a church, when somebody goes first,
S2: other people will immediately follow. Yeah, but if nobody goes first,
S2: everybody pretends. And everybody keeps the face and the appearance
S2: and and the and we lose the deep intimacy and
S2: connection that God wants us to have as his children.
S2: And so somebody's got to go first.
S4: I fully agree with that. Now, we talked a bit
S4: earlier about how people can misuse the five love languages. Uh,
S4: do couples, uh, make couples also misuse the insights of
S4: the of the pain cycle?
S5: Yes.
S2: Uh, we actually have a little section in the book. Uh,
S2: once we've walked them through and they've discovered their pain
S2: and peace cycle, what to do about it? We then
S2: we give them the cautions. All right, hold on, because
S2: here's a here's one of the major ones. Oh, I
S2: now know more about your pain than I've ever known
S2: in the past. And I can use it against you.
S5: Mm.
S2: That's dirty play and not fair. And you want to
S2: talk about breaking safety? That will do it really, really fast.
S2: Somebody finally gets vulnerable about what's deep in them, and
S2: then you use it against them. And the other thing
S2: that we sometimes do, and I'm guilty of guilty of
S2: this one. I gotta, I gotta manage me is, um,
S2: I sense her dysregulation and and I'm like, I want
S2: to point that out to her, you know? I want
S2: to help her with her. What is that? That's control.
S2: That's my control thing kicking in again. Yeah. No, it
S2: is not my that's not my. My job is to
S2: be compassionate about her pain and curious about her pain,
S2: but to not take charge of that pain. So there's
S2: a lot of self control moments. But when you figure
S2: it out, when you get the pathway, I'm telling you,
S2: 35 years I've been in marriage and family ministry. Nothing
S2: has impacted my walk with Christ or my marriage. More
S2: than this.
S4: As we come near the end of our time together,
S4: let's talk a little bit more about how we can
S4: help the church be more open to the kind of
S4: things we're talking about here and understanding, you know, the
S4: brain and all of these things and how they affect us,
S4: even though we're not even thinking about it so much
S4: of the time.
S5: Yeah.
S2: Well, we know from Communio that 80% of churches don't
S2: spend a dime on marriage, education, or ministry in a
S2: given calendar year, and 75% of churches do don't do
S2: more than three activities in a given year. Even if
S2: a church doesn't spend any money, they do a small group.
S2: They have a retreat. They do three or less. That's 75%.
S2: Only 25% of churches will do more than that. In
S2: other words, we really don't seem to be that invested
S2: in helping couples thrive, let alone stay married. And I
S2: don't get that. Uh, you and I both know that
S2: the context in which we live our most intimate relationships
S2: is where God is also growing us up into the
S2: image of Christ. You want to talk about discipleship? Everything
S2: we've been talking about today isn't is discipleship. It is
S2: growing me. It is maturing me to be more like Jesus.
S2: And marriage is the avenue through which God does that. Yes,
S2: we got to study the Bible. Yes, we need to
S2: teach it. And yes, we need to figure out how
S2: to do relationships. And the church really needs to get
S2: more active in that way. And not just fun, you know,
S2: sermons that make people laugh or date nights. I'm all
S2: for date nights and good entertainment and a good laugh.
S2: And let's go out and have a good time, honey.
S2: But if that's all we ever get to in our
S2: marriage ministry, then I'm not really being challenged. I'm not
S2: really growing. I'm just allowed to laugh and stay as
S2: I am. Yeah, no, we can mature. We can do
S2: more than that. Um, I want to invite church leaders
S2: and couples, because often the couples listening to us right
S2: now are the ones that are going to go to
S2: their pastor and say, hey, we got an idea. Let's
S2: do more. Let's dive in. Let's get into the into
S2: the deep end with people's lives and relationships, in particular
S2: marriage and parenting and family, because so much good happens
S2: when we help people do that. And the next generation
S2: comes to know the praiseworthy deeds of the Lord.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Well, I think this book is going to help that process.
S4: And I just want to encourage our listeners, if you're
S4: a lay leader in a church and you lead small groups,
S4: this is a book you want to get yourself. You
S4: want to process it yourself, work through it in your
S4: own marriage. And I think you'll want to be using
S4: it in small groups in your church. So, Ron, thanks
S4: for being with us today and thanks to you and
S4: Ann for putting this together and sharing your own, your
S4: own journey in such a practical way. Thanks again for
S4: all that you have done and are doing.
S2: Well, you endorse this book and we are very grateful. And, uh,
S2: we just pray the Lord will use it.
S3: Well, Ron mentioned that assessment a few minutes ago. And
S3: to discover your reactive coping style, go to Worthy Pub Assessment.
S3: Again worthy pub. Assessment and the book is at our website.
S3: Building relationships. Us the Mindful Marriage. Create your best relationship
S3: through understanding and managing yourself. Again, go to building relationships us.
S4: And next week. What does it mean to be pro
S4: abundant life?
S1: The president and CEO of Care Net, Rolland Warren will
S1: join us. A big thank you to our production team today.
S1: Steve Wick and Janice backing building relationships with Doctor Gary
S1: Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in
S1: association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Thanks for listening.