S1: We are to praise him in the midst of all storms.
S1: I think about Lamentations 332 for if he causes grief,
S1: then he will have compassion according to his abundant love
S1: and kindness. So I don't think we should be afraid
S1: of talking about hard things, because even in those hard things,
S1: God is still kind and he's still good to us.
S2: Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
S2: the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Many
S2: in today's world have trouble believing that God is kind
S2: because they see so much suffering. Today, pastor and author
S2: Nate Pickwick helps answer some of the hard questions people
S2: struggle with about God's kindness.
S3: A featured resource at the website Building Relationships. Us is
S3: the book by Nate titled The Kindness of God Beholding
S3: His Goodness in a Cruel World. I think it's going
S3: to help a lot of people struggling well with this topic. Again,
S3: you can find out more at Building relationships.us. Gary, you've
S3: talked about this before in some of your books and
S3: here on the program. I think there's a sense that
S3: kindness is part of the love language concept. Do you
S3: think that's true?
S4: I would say yes, Chris, it seems to me, uh,
S4: that love, you know, kindness is one of the expressions
S4: of love. Uh, you know, of course, I associated more
S4: with acts of, you know, acts of service, you know,
S4: but there's other ways, I'm sure I'm excited about talking with, uh,
S4: Nate today about this topic, because I'm interested to see
S4: what his definition of kindness is. Uh, people have different ideas, but, yeah,
S4: I can see it as being a part of the
S4: love language concept. It is certainly a way to express love,
S4: and it's certainly a way that God expresses his love
S4: to us.
S5: Yes.
S3: Well, let's meet him. Nate. Pickle poets, you don't have
S3: to spell that name in order to hear the program.
S3: Today he has pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Wilmington Ironworks,
S3: New Hampshire. He's the author and editor of several books,
S3: including How to Eat Your Bible. He and his wife,
S3: Jess have three children and are featured. Resource. Today is
S3: the book The Kindness of God Beholding His Goodness in
S3: a Cruel World. You'll find out more at the website.
S3: Building relationships.us.
S4: Well, Nate, welcome to Building Relationships.
S1: Thank you for having me on today.
S4: Tell us a little bit about yourself. You know, your family,
S4: your church. Uh, who is Pastor Nate?
S1: Sure. Yeah. Well, as you say, I'm a pastor. Uh,
S1: we planted this church back in 2013, in my hometown
S1: of Wilmington Ironworks. And, yes, there are stories about why
S1: it's called that, but just a very small rural town. And, uh,
S1: prior to coming back here, there really wasn't a gospel
S1: witness in the town. So we have the opportunity to
S1: plant a church here. And by God's grace, we've been
S1: rolling for those, uh, the last 11 years. My wife
S1: and I, Jessica, we have three children, uh, 13, ten
S1: and three. And they keep us busy. Uh, but, uh,
S1: it's just been a great joy. The Lord has allowed
S1: me to to preach and teach and write books and
S1: and have a wonderful family. I'm just extremely grateful for
S1: God's kindness to me.
S4: Where is your home originally?
S1: Uh, Gilman and I worked in New Hampshire. Yeah. This is, uh.
S1: I was born. Raised here? Yep.
S4: Oh. All right. Well, well, tell us the history of
S4: the town. I mean, where did that name come from?
S1: So, yeah, Wilmington is a pretty old town. Goes back
S1: to the 1700s. But, uh, it was a booming town
S1: for quite a while there. And we actually had, as
S1: you can imagine, an iron works, a factory that produced
S1: iron and shipped all over the place. And then just
S1: through the course of the 1850s, everything changing with the trains,
S1: the railway being installed, redirected business away from our town.
S1: And then a massive fire 100 years ago destroyed the
S1: ironworks and so kept the name. But we don't have
S1: much left of what we what we started with. So
S1: now we're just a podunk town. We have more cows
S1: than people, and, uh, I like it that way. Uh.
S4: Well, there are a lot of people around the country
S4: who can identify with that. Sure, sure. That's right. That's great.
S4: That's quite a history. Well, let's turn to the topic, uh, kindness.
S4: The kindness of God. What compelled you to write about
S4: this particular subject?
S1: Yeah. So I just kept on finding that as I
S1: was going to the Lord in prayer, it was almost
S1: like this, uh, uh, this natural hitch where I would
S1: just find myself thanking God for his expressed kindness to me.
S1: I would pray and just rehearse the different ways that
S1: he'd been kind to me, and it just sort of
S1: piqued an interest. And I started to look around for studies,
S1: you know, book studies about this particular topic of the
S1: kindness of God. And not to say that there isn't
S1: stuff out there written about it, but I couldn't find
S1: what I was looking for. And so normally when I
S1: don't find what I'm looking for, I try to write
S1: something to fill the gap. But I just felt like
S1: even in the midst of that, there was just a need.
S1: I think there's a huge need right now for people
S1: to understand the character, and specifically the goodness and the
S1: kindness of God. Um, you know, when we consider people
S1: struggling so badly right now with depression and anxiety and,
S1: and just anger and seeing what's happening in the world,
S1: I think we really need to get a good. Vision
S1: of who God is and how he expresses his kindness
S1: to us. And so that's really what motivated me to
S1: try to write this book.
S4: Why do you think there are people today who don't
S4: have a concept of God? Is being a kind God?
S4: What do you think has influenced those people?
S1: Yeah, I think generally, you know, and I'm sure you've
S1: seen this too. There's just a general, at least in
S1: the Western world, a general opposition to God. You know,
S1: in days past, perhaps, you know, people sort of understood
S1: a general, they used to call it a benevolence of God.
S1: You read the old Puritans and you even just read
S1: during the enlightenment. People had a general sense of God's
S1: character has justice, his righteousness as benevolence toward humankind. So
S1: there was a general appreciation, even if they didn't know
S1: God in a saving way. People in general sort of
S1: knew about God. That's gone away. People don't know who
S1: he is. They have a very warped perception of who
S1: he is. And then add to that, when we see
S1: evil increasing in the world and acts of terror and hostility,
S1: people in their ignorance, they blame God and they say, well,
S1: if God was so loving, if God was so good,
S1: then why would all these other things happen? And I
S1: think really the heart of that is pride and arrogance.
S1: You know, we take God's blessings for granted. You know,
S1: we don't appreciate his what we would know to be
S1: as common grace. We don't thank God for the fact
S1: that we have what we have. And so I think
S1: a combination of many of those factors may likely be
S1: contributing to why kindness is sort of fallen on hard
S1: times here.
S4: Yeah. Well, in your own context, you know, there in
S4: New Hampshire, small rural town, what's the general feeling of
S4: the people in your community? What do they think about God?
S1: Yeah, I'd say, you know, with where I am, I mean,
S1: New Hampshire is the according to all the stats, we're
S1: the least church state in the country or the very
S1: bottom tier or bottom of the barrel. And so not
S1: a lot of people are in church. Not a lot
S1: of people have at least a a visible identification with Christianity,
S1: with evangelical ism, whatever you might call that. So I
S1: don't know if people really consider God as much as
S1: as they should. I think up here in New England,
S1: you know, we're really we have a hefty self-reliance. It's
S1: really not about what other people can do. For me,
S1: it's about what I can do for myself. You know,
S1: where have a lot of self-made people. And so because
S1: of that, you know, there's sort of a gritty New
S1: England attitude which has its merits. I don't deny that.
S1: But when it comes to worshipping God, we don't look
S1: to him for the source of strength, for our our blessings.
S1: We don't look to him to provide for us. We
S1: don't look to him for anything. We're very self-reliant. And
S1: you know, as you well know, self-reliance is really nothing
S1: more than a masked pride and self-righteousness. And so I
S1: think generally, New Englanders struggle because it's all about us
S1: and not about God. So I think that's part of
S1: the reason why some have even regarded New England as
S1: an unreached people group, because we're just it's a whole
S1: region full of people who don't regard and don't worship
S1: the Lord. And so it's a tall order ahead of
S1: us to get us to, to help people, to think
S1: about him in that way.
S4: So you started this church in 2013 and in that
S4: small community there. How has the how has the church
S4: gone through these years?
S1: Yeah, by God's grace, it's gone well. Numerically, we've grown
S1: pretty much every year that we've been here. Um, there's
S1: I think there's a general hunger right now. I think
S1: God is doing something in New England, especially in New Hampshire. Uh,
S1: so by his grace, we've seen growth that way. But
S1: I think more than numerical growth, we've seen just an
S1: appetite for the word of God with our people. Uh,
S1: and so it's just such a great joy for me
S1: to be able to preach and teach and minister to people,
S1: to believers up here who are starving and really want
S1: the word and want truth, want doctrine, and then want
S1: a place to express their love for other people. And
S1: so that's where your local church comes in. So we're
S1: very fortunate. The Lord has been very good to us,
S1: and by his grace, we have a growing and thriving church,
S1: and I'm very thankful for that.
S2: Thanks for joining us for building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S2: For more ways to strengthen your relationships, go to our
S2: website Building Relationships US. You can take a free assessment
S2: of your love language there and see our featured resource
S2: by Pastor Nate Pinkowitz. The title is The Kindness of God.
S2: Find out more at Building Relationships us.
S4: Right. Uh, the book, of course, is on the kindness
S4: of God. And we see kindness typically is an attribute
S4: of God. How does it compare to some of the
S4: other attributes of God?
S1: Sure. Yeah. So, you know, as you well know, an
S1: attribute of God is is how we understand his person,
S1: his being, uh, his the kindness of God is closely
S1: connected to his goodness. So in the book, I talk
S1: about how God's goodness reflects his intrinsic character, and his
S1: kindness is an outward expression. So really, it's out of
S1: God's goodness that we experience his kindness. And so the
S1: tours are interrelated, but they're not the exact same thing.
S1: So whereas other attributes are sort of germane to who
S1: he is, their intrinsic kindness is expressed outward to other
S1: people or to us, I should say. So there's a
S1: there is a connection. But they like I said, they're
S1: not the same thing.
S4: Yeah. Give us your definition of kindness.
S1: Yeah, I read widely on this and tried to figure out, okay,
S1: how do I how do I take a broad concept
S1: and boil it down? So the definition I give in
S1: the book is that God's kindness is the demonstration of
S1: his goodness toward his people. So again, the demonstration of
S1: his goodness toward his people. And so it's again, out
S1: of his goodness that we experience his kindness toward us.
S4: Okay. So in the book, you talk specifically about God's
S4: kindness pertaining to things like salvation and repentance. Why is
S4: it important that we see these as examples of his kindness?
S1: Yeah, that's a great question. I think a lot of times,
S1: especially as believers, I think we tend to take things
S1: like salvation and repentance for granted. And I don't mean
S1: that in a sinful way, I just mean it in
S1: terms of that. We don't really think about how this
S1: comes about, that we believe in Jesus, he saves us,
S1: we turn from our sins, and we have this relationship
S1: with God. And it's good. But I think when we
S1: start to to recognize that everything in the Christian life
S1: that we have received from God is an expression of kindness.
S1: And so, you know, just like Ephesians two eight and
S1: nine says that it's for by grace you've been saved
S1: through faith. It's not of ourselves, it's the gift of God.
S1: So God gives us he grants us salvation as an
S1: expression of kindness. And we see that in in Titus
S1: chapter three, when it says, when the kindness of God
S1: appeared to us, he saved us, or even in repentance,
S1: you know, Romans two four, we know that it's the
S1: kindness of God that leads us to repentance. So everything
S1: we experience in the Christian life, it's not of ourselves,
S1: it's from the Lord. It's expressed kindness of God. And
S1: when we recognize that and we kind of wrap our
S1: brains around that, everything we have is is a kindness
S1: expressed to us, then I think we can rightly begin
S1: to worship God and thank him for more than we're
S1: possibly recognizing in the moment. We can thank him for
S1: all of these things. Lord, thank you for being kind
S1: to me and saving me. When we fall into sins
S1: and we repent and we're forgiven, we can say, Lord,
S1: thank you for granting me repentance. I don't I don't
S1: think I could muster that up on my own. Thank you.
S1: So I think, I think we're meant to praise God
S1: for all the expressions of his goodness and loving kindness
S1: to us, and that's the right attitude to have as
S1: a believer.
S4: If we focused on that concept, we could probably make
S4: a long list. Every one of us, right? Even the
S4: personal things. Yeah. In our in our own lives. Yeah.
S4: So how does understanding the kindness of God affect our
S4: lives as believers?
S1: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that goes back to the list. I
S1: think there is a huge long list, but if I
S1: could maybe boil it down to to 2 or 3.
S1: I think apprehending God's kindness, it should produce number one
S1: humility in us. Uh, recognize. And everything we receive from
S1: God is express kindness. It knocks you down a couple
S1: of notches. I think it makes you recognize. Wow. Everything
S1: I have is from God. I should be humble and
S1: recognize this not of myself. And I think in humility
S1: we should also be thankful. And I touched on that
S1: a few minutes ago. But I think thankfulness that's an
S1: antidote to things like depression and anxiety. It's an antidote
S1: to pride and self-righteousness. I mean, thanking God for everything
S1: he does for us. I think apprehending is kindness will
S1: do that. And then out of a heart that's humble
S1: and thankful. I think also we're meant to give praise
S1: to God. I think, uh, I think Christians can struggle
S1: at times in how to worship and praise him and
S1: thank him. But I think as we understand his express kindness,
S1: our praise and our worship will increase. So lots of effects.
S1: I think that this can have on a believer and
S1: these are all good things for us.
S4: Yeah, I would I would encourage our listeners to write
S4: those three things down because I think there you're right. Humility.
S4: And if we realize that everything really we have it.
S4: Life itself is a gift of God. You know, humility.
S4: That's right. And, you know, then thanking God, you know,
S4: for what he's done for us and then and praising God.
S1: Yeah. Well, I think as a preacher, I have to
S1: have a three point sermon. So, you.
S6: Know, that's the way to do it. But for the.
S4: Pastors who are listening there, there's your three points, okay.
S6: Absolutely. Sure.
S4: So so how does understanding the kindness of God impact
S4: our relationships with other people?
S1: Yeah, I think, uh, a heavy verse on my heart
S1: when I consider that as Ephesians 432, where the apostle
S1: Paul actually tells the church, he says, be kind to
S1: one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God in
S1: Christ has also forgiven you. I think verses like that
S1: are helpful to us, because once we can sort of
S1: recognize and be humbled by God's kindness and grateful and
S1: thankful and praise him, once you recognize how God has
S1: been so kind to you, it feels wrong. And it
S1: is wrong to not be kind to other people, especially
S1: to believers. I mean, Jesus told us in John chapter
S1: 13 to love one another just as he has loved us. So.
S1: So we're to be kind to each other. I don't
S1: think a believer has any excuse to withhold goodness or
S1: to withhold kindness from other people, especially when we consider
S1: the fact that God has been so kind to us.
S1: And and even when people hurt you. I think even
S1: when you're in a difficult relationships, whether they're family or
S1: church people, I think when people hurt you, if you
S1: can be reconciled to them and then consider, look, God
S1: has been kind to me. He was a friend to
S1: me even when I was a sinner, even when I
S1: was against him. Then I can also be kind because
S1: God has been good to me. So I think there's
S1: a cascading effect that happens when we realize how much
S1: we've been the recipients of kindness. It motivates us to
S1: then be kind to other people, and that can manifest
S1: itself in a million different ways. But I think that's
S1: a key application. Yeah.
S4: I'm going to ask what Chris asked me in the
S4: first segment of the program today. How do you see
S4: kindness fitting into the love language concept?
S1: I think the way that, um, in different languages, you're
S1: going to the heart is going to be the same.
S1: You know how love is expressed. That feels funny for
S1: me to be telling you this, by the way, Doctor Chapman, but.
S6: But just the way that I understand it, uh.
S1: You know, that all of these different expressions of love
S1: and sort of tailor fitting those expressions of love toward
S1: the other person, I think the heart behind it is
S1: a desire to express a loving kindness to them. It's
S1: it's out of kindness that we do these things that I,
S1: I buy my wife a gift or I want to
S1: spend time with her, or I give her a hug
S1: or whatever it may be. I think it's the heart
S1: that's underneath it, the being kind to one another, forgiving
S1: each other as God in crisis, forgiving you. That becomes
S1: the heart. That's that's expressed in those different ways. Uh,
S1: and again, we're not, you know, legalistic on how we
S1: do that. It can be a lots of different ways
S1: that we express it. But I think if the heart
S1: is right, the expression will be right as well. But
S1: that's just kind of my $0.02 about that.
S4: Yeah, I fully agree with that. I like that. I
S4: do think if we have an attitude of kindness, you know,
S4: that's our fixed way of thinking that, you know, with
S4: all that God has done for us, you know, I
S4: want him to be his instrument of being kind to
S4: other people. I think that is the attitude that's behind
S4: expressing all the love languages and many, many other ways
S4: of expressing kindness.
S3: But there is a sense and let me follow up
S3: with this. The knock on the love languages or people
S3: will criticize it and say, well, you're just manipulating people.
S3: You're just, you know, you're doing this. So you get this.
S3: And I think that same trap can be fallen into
S3: spiritually because a lot of people think that Christianity, Nate, is, uh,
S3: God tells you to do this and you do that,
S3: and then he does this because you've done that. So
S3: it's a quid pro quo, you know, that that we
S3: fall into, that we do kind things to other people
S3: so that God will be kind to us. And then
S3: when something bad happens, then, well, God didn't hold up his,
S3: you know, in other words, we're meriting his kindness. And
S3: that's not what you're talking about, right?
S1: No, no. And I think I've heard the same kind
S1: of criticisms about, you know, concepts like this where it
S1: becomes almost commodity. Like if, if I trade in this commodity,
S1: then you'll trade in that commodity. But, you know, out
S1: of the heart it's that we do all these things.
S1: So out of a heart that is loving and a
S1: heart that it's kind, then your deeds will be good
S1: as well. So yeah, obviously if you're just going to
S1: do all these wonderful, kind things to people because you're
S1: expecting to get something in return, then it does become
S1: work based. And that's not a love language issue. That's
S1: a heart issue. That's a Christian relationship issue. Um, you know,
S1: if I could even turn this around, God's love language
S1: to us is his express kindness. He does it in
S1: all these different ways. But again, if your heart is bad,
S1: everything you do will be bad. But if your heart
S1: is right toward God and toward other people, if you
S1: have a heart of kindness, a tender heart, as Paul says,
S1: that manifests a desire to love other people, then you're
S1: going to blow that out of the water. You're going
S1: to do all kinds of things that express your love
S1: to other people, and then it doesn't become transactional. It
S1: becomes a genuine expression of a loveliness and a loving
S1: kindness that has been shown to you as a believer.
S1: So I think it does fit in. I think it
S1: absolutely works for the Christian life.
S4: Yeah. And I think when you are really have in
S4: mind that I'm here to bless the world, you know,
S4: I'm here to enrich the lives of other people. Everybody
S4: that I encounter. God brings things to your mind, you know,
S4: acts of kindness that you can do that you wouldn't
S4: have thought about on your own. That's right, I was
S4: I think I shared this, Chris, with you a few
S4: weeks ago. I was up early in the trash. Men
S4: could come by to pick up the trash, and, uh,
S4: I seldom see them, you know, but I happen to
S4: be out there. And so I just got out of
S4: my car real quickly. I said, hey, I just want
S4: to thank you for what you do every week, coming
S4: by and picking up the trash. And he said, well,
S4: somebody's got to do it. You know, I said, I know,
S4: but you're doing it, you know, that's right. I said,
S4: think of what would happen in this city if you
S4: guys didn't come around, pick up the trash. It'd be
S4: awful in a couple of weeks, you know. That's right.
S4: So that's the first time I've ever thanked the trash man,
S4: you know, and I've been they've done good things for
S4: me all these years. But I think God just brought
S4: that thought to my mind right there at that moment.
S4: You know. So if you have if you have an
S4: attitude of kindness, you're going to find a lot of
S4: different ways to to express it.
S1: And if I could even just build on that too.
S1: I mean, several years ago, when my wife and I
S1: first got married, we read through your book and and
S1: did the assessment at the end to try to figure
S1: out what our. Love languages tended to be and they
S1: were sort of one result. And then we did it
S1: again a couple of years later, and we found that
S1: it actually had changed that, that how we received and
S1: wanted to give love was a little bit different. And
S1: it kind of dawned on me that at a certain point,
S1: it's really not the the act or the gift itself.
S1: It's again, it's the heart. If I love my wife,
S1: I'm going to want to do whatever it takes to
S1: show her love, even if those things change over time.
S1: So it's not being locked into a certain formula per se.
S1: It really, truly is about the heart. So I have
S1: to always be examining how how do I live with
S1: my wife in an understanding way? How do I understand
S1: what her how she receives love the best and just
S1: continued to try to manifest a heart that desires to
S1: show that to her?
S4: Yeah. That's why I often encourage couples every three weeks
S4: or so just to say to the other person, on
S4: a scale of 0 to 10, how much love are
S4: you feeling coming from me? And if they say anything
S4: less than ten, you say, well, what could I do?
S4: This week that would they would bring it up and
S4: it might, it might not be their primary love language
S4: that week because there's something going on. What they need
S4: help in another way. But we want to find out,
S4: as you say it and whatever it is, then to
S4: the best of our ability, we're willing to do that.
S7: So that's right.
S3: Nate, I want to know, as I was going through
S3: your book, the dedication is to your mom, and my
S3: guess is there's something about your mom that is that
S3: she was very kind in your life. Why did you
S3: dedicate it to her?
S1: Well. So. Yeah. Certainly she was kind to me. She
S1: was always very loving and very tender when I was
S1: growing up. But more specifically, my mom actually went through
S1: quite a substantial health trial in the last 12 months. And,
S1: and I got to watch not only God restore her,
S1: she actually recovered and God restored her and kindness. But
S1: then I also got to watch her and my stepdad
S1: develop their relationship and watch my stepdad demonstrate loving kindness
S1: to her. And so really, when I watched her whole
S1: recovery from this ordeal, I just saw layer upon layer
S1: of God's loving kindness to her and through her. And
S1: it just really had an impact on me. So who
S1: better to dedicate a book to than to your mother? Right.
S1: So but that was the reason. That was the core reason.
S1: Just by seeing and witnessing God's kindness through her.
S3: So is kindness something that's better caught than taught?
S1: Oh, boy. Well, I mean, Scripture teaches us about it,
S1: but certainly we have to catch it. So both. And
S1: how's that for a pastoral answer?
S4: I think if you see parents who are kind, you're
S4: more likely to be kind. Yes, I agree, I would
S4: hope anyway.
S1: Yes, yes that's right.
S2: We hope today's broadcast is encouraging. You tell a friend
S2: about our program and you can find our podcast online
S2: at Building Relationships US. You'll also see our featured resource today,
S2: the book by Pastor Nate Pinkowitz. The Kindness of God
S2: Beholding His Goodness in a cruel world. Just go to
S2: building relationships us.
S4: Nate, in the book, uh, you discussed the reality of
S4: human suffering. How are we able to see God's kindness
S4: to us, even in the midst of those difficult times
S4: that all of us have in life?
S1: Yeah, that's I think, one of the most challenging things
S1: to apprehending and understanding God's kindness as well. You know
S1: what happens when God and allow something bad to happen?
S1: Or what if he ordains a trial in my life?
S1: And I think for believers, we have to remember Romans
S1: 828 that we know. And Bible says we know that
S1: God causes all things to work together for good to
S1: those who love him and are called according to his purpose.
S1: So even in our perspective, it feels like in the
S1: moment when we're suffering going through trials, bad things are happening.
S1: It can feel temporally like it's all bad, and that
S1: this is not going to be an expression of God's kindness.
S1: But when we look past the circumstances and we know that,
S1: number one, God will use this for some good purpose,
S1: or even Hebrews 11, that he's disciplining us for godliness,
S1: or even James chapter one the word of. Consider it
S1: all joy, because our faith is being tested and we're
S1: being matured. If we can gain perspective and understand that
S1: God is doing something in the midst of it all,
S1: and that what he's preparing and doing in us and
S1: through us for his glory in the end, is an
S1: expression of his kindness. Then suddenly our perspective on the
S1: trial begins to change. Not that the trial loses any
S1: of its difficulty. I mean, we're going to go through
S1: hard things, but if we can come through the trial
S1: and worship God in the process, I think that's where
S1: we can find encouragement. And some of the most godly
S1: believers that I know are people who've gone through, you know,
S1: terrible trial and yet have found an experience, God's kindness
S1: and his peace in the midst of it. And they
S1: rejoice over their trials. So I think that's really what
S1: we have to be, is, is seeing your seeing God's
S1: kindness through the trial itself and then praising him for
S1: it in the end.
S4: Somewhere, I think recently I heard someone talk about Johnny
S4: Ericsson today, and somewhere she had written that she was
S4: thinking maybe God would let her take her wheelchair to
S4: heaven and sit it in a corner so she could
S4: look at it and thank God for the wheelchair all
S4: those years. And what happened to her? Uh, that's that's
S4: what we wish for every Christian, that they could see
S4: the difficult places in their lives as as, you know,
S4: God's behind. And he's using that. I mean, you wonder
S4: what kind of ministry would she have had in life
S4: if she had not been disabled, you know, all those years,
S4: since those teenage years?
S7: Absolutely.
S4: And and of course, we don't know what that would
S4: be like, but we can certainly see how God has
S4: used her so greatly, you know, and in the midst
S4: of that problem. But a person has to be walking
S4: closely with God to interpret, you know, suffering and sadness
S4: in that manner. Right?
S1: They do. But I also think, too, along with that,
S1: a person who, even if they are a believer, but
S1: they're not walking closely, many times the Lord will use
S1: the trials and the difficulty to bring them closer. So
S1: I think, you know, we shy away from trials and
S1: difficulty too much. Oh Lord, I don't want you to
S1: hurt me. Well, but it's in the trial and through
S1: the trial that maybe you do need to grow closer.
S1: Maybe this is God's method of bringing you close. Because
S1: if you survive through the trial and still have your
S1: faith by God's grace, then you will be stronger. Uh,
S1: and so, yeah, he uses trials and difficulty and suffering
S1: for good ends.
S3: Yeah. I found it really interesting that you started the
S3: book with Susan's story and you went through, you know,
S3: diagnosed with Crohn's disease of compounding sickness, arthritis, glaucoma, severe
S3: kidney stone. She'd been abused when she was younger. And
S3: I thought, how do you begin a book with on
S3: kindness with a person who's gone through that and then
S3: she finds a lump, you know. So tell us about
S3: Susan and and what sparked the beginning of this book?
S1: Yeah, I think with her story was it's a relationship
S1: of someone in our church. Her mother was a church member,
S1: a very dear, lovely lady. And just I was struck
S1: by her story. But I began the book that way. I,
S1: I agree, it's counterintuitive, but I began that way because
S1: I wanted to tackle a headlong or right on the
S1: nose here. The the largest objection, the strongest objection against
S1: God's kindness is that God is not kind because he
S1: allows these things. And I wanted to just get that
S1: out in the open. Okay. Here. Here's a terrible ordeal
S1: that someone has gone through. But we're going to we're
S1: going to talk about it. I want to look at
S1: the ugly thing in the face, the ugly thing of
S1: the trial, and just address it. And then in the end,
S1: we see that the Lord actually did use that trial
S1: for good. So I think I think we tend to,
S1: to shy away from difficult things because we're afraid that
S1: it's going to somehow impugn the character of God, but
S1: that's not who he is, you know, he he is
S1: the God over all things, even suffering and trials and difficulty.
S1: And while he's not the author of sin, he is
S1: sovereign over all things. And so I think that we
S1: are to praise him in the midst of all storms.
S1: I think about Lamentations 332 for if he causes grief,
S1: then he will have compassion according to his abundant loving kindness.
S1: So I don't think we should be afraid of talking
S1: about hard things, because even in those hard things, God
S1: is still kind and he's still good to us.
S4: Yeah. You know, throughout the book you refer to Psalm 63,
S4: verse three, which reads, because your loving kindness is better
S4: than life, my lips will praise you. Hmm. How is
S4: it that we can see God's loving kindness as being
S4: better than life itself?
S1: Yeah, it's that's one to ponder for sure. But when
S1: you think about all of what life is, you know,
S1: we tend to think life being a good thing. But
S1: life is also plagued with difficult things. In our life,
S1: at least on this world is plagued by sin and
S1: the curse of the fall. And so our life is
S1: is not always what we would hope or want it
S1: to be. And I think that those who are hanging
S1: on to this life, I mean, Jesus says, if you
S1: love this life, in the end you'll lose it. This
S1: isn't all there is. So I think when we when
S1: we consider knowing God, I mean, Jesus said, eternal life exists.
S1: And knowing God, if we know him and become acquainted
S1: with his character and his righteousness and his kindness, we
S1: begin to see that knowing him is actually greater. And
S1: that's what the Apostle Paul says. He says all other things.
S1: I've counted as loss for the sake of following and
S1: knowing Christ. So Paul regarded his life as rubbish in
S1: comparison to knowing the Lord. So. I think that's how
S1: we have to view a verse like that, to say
S1: that no lovingkindness of God, the expressed goodness of his character,
S1: knowing him, is far better than anything we could ever
S1: receive in this life. And I'll tell you, if we
S1: know Christ in this life and can see that, then
S1: we will. We will rejoice in Christ in the next life.
S1: And so I think that's that's got to be our heartbeat.
S4: Uh, absolutely. I think every true believer, if they reflect
S4: upon God's kindness and and a relationship with him, is
S4: more important than anything that that will ever happen in
S4: our lives here. So powerful.
S7: That's right.
S4: Does the concept of God's kindness have any implications on
S4: how we see culture and world events today?
S1: Yeah, I think it does. You know, we read, you know,
S1: places like Psalm two where it talks about the nations
S1: raging against God and, and even today, so many people
S1: thinking that God owes them something or the universe owes
S1: them something, or however they want to spin that, whether
S1: they think that that God owes them blessings or favor
S1: or or freedoms or whatever, we think that God owes
S1: us as a nation or as a culture. I think
S1: an antidote to dealing with that, you know, mistake in
S1: that problem is to recognize, again that that God demonstrates
S1: common grace because he's good, that God doesn't owe us
S1: a thing. And I think if if more people again,
S1: this is apart from a saving relationship with Jesus, but
S1: even if just nations, uh, humbled themselves, and as the
S1: psalmist says in Psalm two, pay homage or kiss the sun,
S1: that he might not be angry and you perish along
S1: the way. I think of nations would regard and Revere
S1: and fear the Lord, and began to thank him for
S1: being good. I think we would see a huge change
S1: in world events again, not that these things are saving realities.
S1: You know, you don't get saved just by, you know,
S1: having and God we trust on a piece of money.
S1: That's not what does it. But I think in terms
S1: of a world culture, we would be impacted, I think,
S1: if people had a right understanding of the God who
S1: created us. But there's a lot of applications, I think,
S1: of this doctrine into real world situations. Yeah.
S4: I think all of us struggle with events that are
S4: going on in the world today and wondering, where does
S4: this lead and what is God doing behind the scenes?
S4: And we see through a glass darkly, right, in terms
S4: of understanding, uh, contemporary culture and what happens. Yeah.
S2: Thanks for joining us today for building relationships with Doctor
S2: Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller The
S2: Five Love Languages. Our guest is Pastor Nate Pickard, author
S2: of The Kindness of God. You can find out more
S2: about it at Building Relationships Us Again. Go to Building
S2: Relationships with Us.
S3: Nate, I saw the chapter on sanctification and God's kindness,
S3: and I wanted to ask you about that because I
S3: have been thinking about, uh, process versus outcome. You know,
S3: I'm very outcome oriented. What do I need to do
S3: and how do I need to get there the quickest
S3: I can? And God is seems to be more interested
S3: in the process that he is taking me through, rather
S3: than just running, rushing to the outcome. He was. Jesus
S3: was that way with his disciples. So explain what you
S3: mean by for those who don't know what sanctification is,
S3: what is sanctification, and how is God's kindness involved in that? Yeah.
S1: So sanctification is really just a fancy theological word to
S1: refer to growing in Christ likeness, growing in your spiritual
S1: walk with God. And really, the root of sanctification is
S1: really has to do with holiness or God setting you
S1: apart for a purpose. He pulls you out of the world,
S1: sanctifies you to himself in a relationship with him, but
S1: then he grows you in that relationship. And that process
S1: of growth is what we call sanctification. And I think
S1: about first Peter chapter two, where talks about like newborn
S1: babes when we come to Christ and we long for
S1: the pure milk of the word. And he says, but
S1: in doing so, as we grow closer to God, we
S1: read the Bible, we pray, we grow, and we say
S1: no to sin, and we repent and we we grow
S1: in faithfulness that we grow. What he says in respect
S1: to salvation, he says, if you have tasted the kindness
S1: of the Lord, so there's a connection there to growing
S1: in Christ and growing in the Lord and experiencing his kindness.
S1: And really, I think that what God is doing is
S1: that at every step along the way, he is nurturing
S1: us and feeding us and tending to us just like
S1: a parent does to their child. You know, you don't
S1: have a baby and then teach them how to walk
S1: and then say, right, well, you got to get to
S1: the end. You got to get a job and go
S1: to college and move on. You know, we we minister
S1: to them slowly and progressively. We absorb a lot of their,
S1: their bad habits and their sins and their tempers. And
S1: we absorb that as parents and we walk them through.
S1: We discipline them, we train them, we grow them. And
S1: it's an act of kindness, a progressive kindness as a parent. Now,
S1: if we know how to do that, albeit not always perfectly,
S1: but if we know how to do that as human
S1: parents who are sinful, how much more so does a perfect,
S1: loving father know how to minister his kindness to us
S1: and minister as we grow in Christ's likeness? So I
S1: think that all throughout the course of our Christian life,
S1: God is ministering little kindnesses to us that grow us
S1: and nourish us and bring us closer to him, where
S1: one day we will see him in glory. So I
S1: think it's a progressive thing. We experience God's kindness from
S1: start to finish all throughout the course of our Christian life.
S4: I think that process, uh, if we have any age
S4: like I do, you look back, you can you can realize, oh,
S4: it's been a real process, you know, along the way,
S4: because we're at a very different point now than we were,
S4: you know, so many years ago. And that's encouraging, you know,
S4: to recognize that in a person's life. Yeah. What encouragement
S4: do you have for the person who is struggling right
S4: now in their lives? They're having a hard time experiencing
S4: the kindness of God. What would you say to them?
S1: Yeah, I want to encourage folks who are struggling in
S1: this area. And that's one of the reasons. The main
S1: reason I think I wrote the book, was to try
S1: to be an encouragement and a blessing to people. I
S1: think that when you're when you've come on hard times,
S1: whether you're going through a trial right now or even
S1: if you're just sort of hardened to the things of God,
S1: I would say begin with just prayer and confession. Go
S1: to the Lord directly and just tell him what's what's
S1: on your heart. I don't think this kind of a
S1: prayer needs to be a long, articulate, erudite kind of
S1: a prayer. This is a prayer of just asking God
S1: for help. Uh, confessing your sins. Lord, I don't see
S1: you in your kindness. I don't see your goodness. I
S1: don't acknowledge all these things that just. I'm struggling with you, Lord.
S1: I think admitting that and confessing sins and asking God
S1: to forgive you, I think that's a good place to start.
S1: And then when you do find forgiveness, and first John
S1: one nine tells us that if we do confess, God
S1: is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from
S1: our unrighteousness. And as he begins to do that, I
S1: think reading His Word, you know, devoting yourself to Scripture
S1: and reading the promises of God, I would if you're
S1: struggling right now, I would just go and live in
S1: the Psalms for a season and just look at how
S1: even David and the Psalmist's other psalmist convey these feelings
S1: to God, where they're struggling, and yet they still acknowledge
S1: God's kindness to them, and they learn how to praise
S1: God in the midst of the storms. So I would
S1: encourage you, struggling believer, if you're if you're hurting right now,
S1: be encouraged and know that God is kind, and just
S1: because you don't see it in the moment doesn't mean
S1: it's not happening. You're just not paying attention to what
S1: he's really doing, but to to get alone with him,
S1: to confide in him, to read his word, and to
S1: encourage your heart that God really is who he says
S1: he is. And he is a good God who does
S1: express his kindness to us. So lift your heads, beloved.
S1: God is good.
S4: I found that interesting. You referred to the Psalms because
S4: I think you found it illustrated in the Psalms, right?
S4: Where the psalmist is open with God. You know, I
S4: don't get this. You know, my enemies are overwhelming me, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
S4: You know, just being totally honest with God and, and
S4: and even asking, where are you, God? You know, how
S4: long before you respond to me, you know, we can
S4: be honest with God. He he knows already how we
S4: feel and what our thoughts are, but we reveal them
S4: to him. But we're turning to him not just with
S4: our frustration and our questions and all of that, but
S4: also to say, thank you, God. At least I'm still
S4: alive today. At least I still have this, or I
S4: still have that or whatever, you know? Uh, yeah. But
S4: it can be hard. It can be hard. I understand
S4: the struggle there.
S1: Absolutely.
S4: What do you think would happen in the life of
S4: a believer if he or she truly understood Good God's
S4: kindness for them?
S1: I think it would have a transformative effect. I really
S1: do think it would change the way that we think
S1: about God. I think that it would it would begin
S1: to inform our a right understanding of who he really is,
S1: to study out God's attributes, or what some people call
S1: his perfections. To really immerse yourself in knowing him deeply
S1: and then seeing how he relates to us. I mean,
S1: the kindness of God is really how God relates to
S1: his people and how he blesses and and demonstrates goodness.
S1: So I think if we could do that, we would
S1: know him better. And Jesus says again, knowing him is
S1: eternal life. But but more than that, I think we
S1: would rightly worship him. I think our worship would increase.
S1: I think our sensitivity towards sin. We'd be sensitive to that.
S1: We'd want to confess. I think we would pray to
S1: him more. We would be nourished in His Word. I
S1: think our our love and our tenderness for him would grow,
S1: recognizing his loving kindness to us. And so I, I
S1: don't think it does anything negative for the believer. I
S1: think there's only positives in this. And so that's been
S1: really my hope is that this book would just be
S1: a help. It would just be a guide to to
S1: at least get people to start thinking about God's kindness
S1: in their own life, and maybe thinking about it in
S1: places that they maybe hadn't considered before, because it's everywhere.
S1: The more I studied it and looked at the whole thing,
S1: I realize it's absolutely everywhere and I'm the one who
S1: misses it. I'm the one who doesn't pay attention. Um,
S1: so I think if we could, if we could do that,
S1: I think our relationship would it would get better. We
S1: would love him more. We worship him rightly and we
S1: would give him the glory he deserves.
S4: Yeah. You know, I'm always encouraged as a pastor. Uh,
S4: I'm sure you are. When I see people, you know,
S4: in our congregation that I've known for years who are
S4: going through really, really difficult times, but who have a
S4: spirit of, thank you, Lord, you know, thank you for
S4: all that you've done for me in my life. Because,
S4: you know, when you see older people who've been around
S4: longer than you have and see the things they're going
S4: through and, and yet see their thankfulness to God for
S4: all that he has already done. Uh, I've heard members
S4: say the other day said, you know, if God did
S4: nothing else for me ever, you know, I just so
S4: grateful for everything. It's already happened in my life.
S7: Amen. Amen.
S4: Life. You know. So. Yeah.
S3: Nate, one more question before we go. The Romans 828.
S3: That doesn't mean that we figure out everything that God
S3: is doing in order to trust him, right?
S1: Absolutely. I mean, there are things there are lots of
S1: things that we will never know this side of heaven,
S1: as I know you think about Deuteronomy 29, the secret
S1: things belong to God, and basically the rest belongs to
S1: us here, that that we don't always know God's plan.
S1: His thoughts are higher. His ways are so much higher.
S1: That's not what the goal is. The goal is not
S1: to figure out God or figure out his plan. The
S1: goal is to, by faith, trust in him and throw
S1: our heart into his hands and say, Lord, if if
S1: you're ordaining a trial, if you're ordaining difficulty, or even
S1: if you're ordaining good things, I'm trusting that you will
S1: work everything out for good. I think about Joseph when
S1: he was abducted and sold into slavery and at the
S1: very end of his life, you know, he says what
S1: you meant for evil. God meant for good. And I
S1: feel like that has to be our perspective, that that
S1: God does mean good for those who trust him and
S1: love him, even if we don't see how it all
S1: comes together.
S4: Well, Nate, let me thank you for being with us today.
S4: I think this topic is a is a timely topic,
S4: and I think the way you've treated it in the
S4: in the book is going to be very, very helpful
S4: to the readers. So thanks for what you have done
S4: in in this book as well as the minister you're
S4: having there in your local community.
S1: Thank you so much. I appreciate the chance to be
S1: on and spend some time with you. Thank you.
S3: Well, what an encouraging conversation about God's kindness. Maybe someone
S3: you know needs to hear about this topic and you
S3: might be the person who reaches out to them. Are featured.
S3: Resource will help you. It's titled The Kindness of God
S3: Beholding His Goodness in a Cruel World. Just go to
S3: building relationships with us to find out more. Building relationships.us.
S4: And next week, the comfort and compassion we get from
S4: experiencing the Book of Psalms.
S2: Heather Holdsworth joins us from Scotland in one week. Our
S2: thanks to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice. Backing
S2: building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of
S2: Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a
S2: ministry at Moody Bible Institute.
UU: Thanks for listening.