S1: That love, God's beloved love for us and that's not
S1: within us, does a lot to help us deal with
S1: the isolation, disunity, loneliness, all the different things that are
S1: out there. There's any type of love that can help
S1: us cross those barriers, walk across those others that are
S1: between us now.
UU: It's that love.
S2: We live in a time of great isolation, loneliness and disunity.
S2: With all the struggles in our culture. Does the church
S2: have an answer today on building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman,
S2: pastor and author of Germany. Pierre will help us see
S2: how God's love can transform individuals and communities.
S3: Pastor Pierre's book is titled Dearly Beloved How God's love
S3: for His Church deepens our love for Each other. You
S3: can find out more at Building Relationships with Us. I
S3: think you're going to benefit from the conversation that straight
S3: ahead here on Moody Radio. Gary, you were a pastor
S3: at a church for 50 plus years, so you have
S3: a lot of experience with this topic. Were there times
S3: when you marveled at people's love and care for each other,
S3: and times when you were a little disappointed at the conflict?
S4: I think anytime you work with people, you're going to
S4: have times in which you're greatly encouraged by their behavior,
S4: and you're going to have times in which you're disappointed
S4: by their behavior. But yeah, I was encouraged just last week,
S4: a lady who just been coming to our church, she
S4: and her family, for just a few weeks now, and
S4: she said, you know, my husband said to me, I
S4: just like that church. It's just you feel like when
S4: you're there, you're part of a family. And I thought,
S4: that's wonderful. That's what we want. That's what we hope
S4: it will be like, you know? So I'm excited about
S4: our conversation today because I think this is a topic
S4: that impacts all Christians. And so yeah, I'm just glad
S4: we're talking about it today.
S3: And I think what you just described, everybody listening is saying, yeah,
S3: that's what I want. I want to have it at church.
S3: But you can't program that. You can't fit it into,
S3: you know, do these ten things and then you become
S3: there's something that has to go on on the inside.
S3: And that's where Pastor Vernon Pierre comes in. He is
S3: lead pastor at Roosevelt Community Church, which is a diverse
S3: multifaith ethnic congregation in downtown Phoenix, Arizona. He has a B.A.
S3: from Princeton University and an MDiv from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.
S3: He's the author of Gospel Shaped Living, as well as
S3: our featured resource. Today, you'll find it at Building Relationships Us,
S3: titled Dearly Beloved How God's Love for His Church Deepens
S3: Our Love for Each Other. Freeman and his wife, Danny,
S3: live in downtown Phoenix and they have five children. Find
S3: out more at Building Relationships with us.
S4: Well, Pastor Pierre, welcome to Building Relationships.
S1: Thank you. It's good to be here.
S4: Tell us a little bit about yourself. You know, where
S4: you grew up, your hopes and dreams. When you were young,
S4: did you always think of being a pastor? What was
S4: life like for you growing up?
S1: I've always said to people that, uh, being a pastor,
S1: I call it a sweet bird and a ministry in
S1: the sense that I can't imagine myself doing anything else.
S1: And I love it. I see how the Lord has
S1: equipped me for it, but I call it a burden
S1: in a sense of I did try to do other
S1: stuff and begin to realize, like, if I could do
S1: these other things and, um, I wouldn't be happy. And
S1: clearly the Lord was not calling me to those things. Um,
S1: I'm originally from the New York and New Jersey area.
S1: I was born in Brooklyn to Haitian immigrants and then
S1: grew up in northern new Jersey, uh, and went to
S1: Princeton and New Jersey and then, uh, went to Trinity, uh,
S1: just north of Chicago and Princeton. And I was initially, um,
S1: thinking I was going to go to medical school and
S1: then thinking about being a lawyer and, uh, really just
S1: a lot of different ways in which the Lord began
S1: to press in my heart, and many people affirming in
S1: my life that I really need to consider pastoral ministry. Uh,
S1: and I was I wasn't sure about it. I thought
S1: it was going to be tough. And, uh, maybe I'll
S1: just be an elder of a church or do something
S1: like that. Uh, so after Princeton, I worked for a
S1: year as a paralegal in a law firm. And praise
S1: God for Christian lawyers. Really appreciate them. But that year,
S1: I thought, yeah, I can't do this. This is this
S1: is definitely my calling. Uh, and, um, and just sort
S1: of one final confirmation for me of like, yeah, I could,
S1: I could do these other things. I think I'd have
S1: been a good lawyer or many other things. But coming
S1: to seminary, I remember my first year I felt like, man,
S1: what what took me so long to get here? Um,
S1: I was thankful for the Lord's continued calling on my life, uh,
S1: within me. And also from affirmation from many people. Uh,
S1: I love seminary, and I was glad to finally be there.
S1: So that's a that's really how I ended up, uh,
S1: going to pastoral ministry, then moved to the Phoenix area.
S1: And in 2002, initially I was going to only be
S1: here for two years, but then they asked me to
S1: stay to help plant a church in downtown Phoenix, which
S1: I did in 2005. And I'm still here.
S4: That's wonderful. Wonderful. Talk a little bit about your marriage,
S4: because our listeners are always interested in in a person's marriage. Uh,
S4: how did you meet your wife? And here's a question
S4: we often get. How did you know that she was
S4: the one?
S1: Yes. Um. Well, I the funny story here is that
S1: I did break a rule, which was I would never
S1: date someone in my church. Uh, but I did, and
S1: I only did it once, so I suppose it worked out.
S1: I when we started the church, 2005, actually, I was
S1: dating someone. I thought we were going to get married.
S1: And the engagement broke off about a month before we
S1: started the church. Um, and so, uh, I started the
S1: church as a single pastor, which I did not want
S1: to do, uh, was trying to avoid at all cost. Um,
S1: but my wife, uh, did a I started coming to
S1: church the first couple of months of, uh, of us
S1: starting as part of our core group and helping it
S1: get going. And, uh, and since that was interested, I
S1: was interested in her. I said she was interested in me,
S1: but I sort of it took about a year or
S1: more before I thought, like, man, can I really do this?
S1: I don't know if I want to do this. And yeah,
S1: it was a a professor, a friend of mine who
S1: basically joked that, hey, you know, obviously you can't you
S1: don't want to be dating lots of people in your
S1: church as a single pastor. Uh, do your best to
S1: do it once, but, you know, the people are going
S1: to show you a lot of grace towards you, and
S1: it's very likely the person you'd be interested would be
S1: someone who comes to your church. And so, um, about
S1: a maybe a year and a half or so after
S1: she started coming, I remember I just took the risk
S1: and said, hey, you know, I'd like to take you out.
S1: And she said, yes. And really, that first month, um,
S1: it was really clear, like, yeah, this is this is
S1: something that's going to work. Just, uh, kind of conversations
S1: we had. I mean, in many ways, I had a
S1: long time to get to know her over the course
S1: of that year, year and a half. And, uh, we
S1: didn't tell anyone in church for the first two months because, uh,
S1: as a single pastor of a young church, people were
S1: very interested in my love life. Um, but we waited
S1: for a little bit to before announcing that, yeah, we
S1: were dating, um, and about six months of dating, and
S1: we got engaged about six, seven months later, we got married.
S4: All right. How about your church now? It's described as
S4: a diverse, multi-ethnic congregation. Tell us a little bit about
S4: your church.
S1: That's something that's always been important to me. A little
S1: late into when we begin talking about the book. Um,
S1: I'm always interested in sort of what it is to
S1: bring people together, but particularly different types of people together. Uh,
S1: growing up in the East Coast, I'm just very comfortable
S1: and used to diversity. And I think church at its best. Um,
S1: as much as we're able to reflect, really what what
S1: what the Lord is able to uniquely do, which brings
S1: able to bring different people together, Jew and Gentile together,
S1: you know, people from every child, language and nation will
S1: one day before be gathered around the throne. So that's
S1: something I've always been interested in. And so I'm starting there.
S1: Church that became, um, some important in terms of the
S1: kind of culture that we had and the ways in
S1: which we wanted to approach church, that it was always
S1: sort of saying, hey, uh, how do we draw different
S1: peoples together? How do we help them form relationships that
S1: recognizes that there's a difference? We can't ignore those things,
S1: but those differences, rather than drive us from one another,
S1: the word can use to essentially make us almost puzzle pieces.
S1: A mosaic, if you will, that reflects all who the
S1: Lord is. It's a lot of sort of the impetus behind, uh, uh,
S1: starting the church that we did and why we continue to,
S1: to live that out today.
S4: Yeah. Well, that's great when you can see that in
S4: a church. That's not true in all churches, as you
S4: well know. Well, let's talk about your book, dearly beloved.
S4: What are you trying to address? And with this new
S4: book that you've just released?
S1: Well, I'm saying something all of us have sensed, and
S1: I think everyone I've spoken to over the last few
S1: years has experienced, which is that we're in a time
S1: of a lot of polarization, division, uh, tensions, long standing
S1: relationships that are frayed or even separated. And now, as
S1: I was saying before, it is a calling card from
S1: my ministry. I'm always thinking about what brings people together,
S1: but especially what keeps people together. And, um, we begin.
S1: I began to realize, uh, I've long realized that in
S1: some ways, you can find a lot of ways to
S1: bring people together. I can put up a good movie
S1: on the screen on Sunday morning. People will come. But
S1: that's not real community. Um, we need something that brings
S1: us and actually has this form, the kind of bonds
S1: that make us one in the ways of the world
S1: calls us to. And so, uh, essentially what we're talking
S1: about is how can we help people love one another
S1: if there's sort of one quick way of thinking about this?
S1: We need to have ways that encourage us to love
S1: one another. And really, what led to the writing of
S1: the book is I felt we were really in a
S1: time where I want to find some of the best
S1: and strongest ways to describe how we might love one another.
S1: And when we look at Scripture, I think one of
S1: the the best and strongest ways to describe love is
S1: the way God loves us. And he loves us in
S1: a lot of different ways. That loves us like a
S1: father loves his children. He loves us like a shepherd, uh,
S1: loves and cares for his sheep, and does bring out
S1: different aspects of love for sure. But one of the strongest, uh,
S1: most vibrant ways the Bible talks about love that we
S1: don't think a lot about. But the Bible says, and
S1: this is where we're all headed toward. One day. It's
S1: God's beloved love for us that God loves us with
S1: the love of like a husband loves his wife. And
S1: the more I think we reflect on that imagery, um,
S1: that helps us sort of understand something really marvelous and
S1: amazing about the kind of god that we have in
S1: the Bible. But also I think it really directly connects
S1: towards how we might understand how we love one another,
S1: that we can love in and out of that love
S1: as well.
S4: Yeah. So you're saying that the biblical model of marital
S4: love is what we need to capture in order to
S4: function well in the church?
S1: Exactly. Um, but specifically, you know, when I say when
S1: we say the biblical model of marital love, I'm thinking
S1: of one marriage in particular. Uh, that the model for
S1: us isn't necessarily human marriage. Uh, human marriages only work,
S1: I think, or work at the best when they reflect
S1: the one spiritual marriage that will last all marriages, the
S1: marriage between Christ and the church. And so as that
S1: particular model, um, a really powerful model. And of course,
S1: the marriage between Christ and church is not a it's
S1: not 100% equal to human marriage, but it's a very
S1: intentional metaphor, isn't it? It's it's the Bible is invites
S1: us to fully embrace it and to know that this
S1: is this is really what the whole universe hangs on, uh,
S1: Christ in relationship to his church. That will be like
S1: the very best marriage. Like that model understanding what that is. Um,
S1: that relationship, uh, Christ and his church, uh, capturing that
S1: understanding that, uh, directly relates to how we relate to
S1: one another in the life of the church.
S4: Well, Pastor Pierre, in today's world we see isolation and
S4: disunity and loneliness even in those who are in our churches. Uh,
S4: how do we fight against this and love one another
S4: with the same kind of love we see displayed in
S4: Christ's love for us?
S1: Our instruction to people are, the way we're trying to
S1: do this is to sort of kind of generate within
S1: ourselves our own love. It's not going to work, um, that,
S1: you know, often I think we're talking about people loving
S1: one another. People are thinking is I just sort of
S1: got to find something within me to help me love
S1: those who are around me. And, um, and some of
S1: us will do better than others. Um, but it's, uh,
S1: if our own source of love is only our own
S1: source within us, I think it falls apart. Um, what
S1: really helps us is if we're loving one another out
S1: of the love of God that's already within us. Um,
S1: because that love is pure. It's strong, it's vibrant, it's eternal.
S1: And I think that really helps us. Then when I
S1: look at the people around me, I'm looking at them
S1: through the eyes of Christ. I'm looking at them with
S1: the eyes of the Lord. And so one of the
S1: things I've said to people is, if you can think
S1: about it this way, your soul has been filled now
S1: with the water of God's beloved love when you trust them, Lord,
S1: by the Holy Spirit, trust in Jesus. The Holy Spirit
S1: comes within you and fills you now with his love
S1: and includes his beloved love. And I draw now from
S1: that well to love those around me. And that leads
S1: to all sorts of ways in which we might sort
S1: of open up new ways, imaginative ways, in some ways, uh,
S1: but powerful ways to love those around me and, uh,
S1: that love God's beloved love for us and that's not
S1: within us does a lot to help us deal with
S1: the isolation, disunity, loneliness, all the different things that are
S1: out there. There's any type of love that can help us, uh,
S1: cross those barriers, uh, walk across those deserts that are
S1: between us. Now. It's that love. Yeah.
S4: So talk about the relationship with Yahweh. You know, God,
S4: the God of the Bible. Uh, that relationship is very
S4: different from the pagan gods described in the scriptures, right?
S1: Yes. Um, I mean, this is there's a lot of
S1: great things about Christianity. And here's one of them. I mean,
S1: that we believe that there's a God of the Bible
S1: who leans in towards us, uh, who legitimately cares about us,
S1: who who's passionate about us, who delights in us, who
S1: loves us with the kind of like a of a
S1: husband a good husband has towards his wife. And that's
S1: very different from the way the pagans, uh, thought of
S1: their gods, and different from how people continue to think
S1: about life in general. While people don't think about life.
S1: I don't think many people do. They don't believe in
S1: the same pagan gods of ancient times. They still approach
S1: life in the same way those people did. So the
S1: pagan gods made them more manipulative. Uh, they were selfish. Uh,
S1: they're distant. And so the pagans, uh, were often in
S1: a constant struggle with the gods. Uh, you got to
S1: make sure you do the right thing, offer the right sacrifices.
S1: You got to wake the gods up, and hopefully they
S1: pay attention to you. So life is sort of this constant, uh, negotiation. Um,
S1: it's a constant sort of sense of, hey, I need
S1: to make sure to do these things so I can
S1: get what I want. And certainly people do the same
S1: things today that they see life as, uh, some people
S1: live life thinking that I was actually going to drop.
S1: And so they're always sort of afraid of that and
S1: trying to make sure they stay ahead of things. Other
S1: people sort of approach life as if, uh, you know,
S1: I should get what I want. Life is almost like
S1: a if there's a God, he should be like a
S1: genie or Santa Claus. And so if I do enough
S1: good things and I should get what I want. Um,
S1: so those are different ways people think of life. Yahweh,
S1: the God of the Bible, is a God who created
S1: all things, created us, and says, I choose to be
S1: in relationship with you. So much so that I actually
S1: want to live with you. I want it to feel
S1: like we're married. That the best way to describe what
S1: it's going to be like to be in relationship with
S1: God is, is going to feel like being married to him.
S1: And when he when you get me to really consider
S1: that and what that means, it just makes all the difference,
S1: then for how you understand life or how you understand yourself,
S1: the value that you have, the work that you have, that, uh,
S1: when you consider God and consider relating to God, he's
S1: not somewhere distant. Uh, he's already near to you. He's
S1: actually with you again, it makes a difference for your
S1: own sense of identity and your own sense of purpose
S1: in life.
S4: Well, let me ask you a personal question. As you
S4: began to understand what it means to be deeply loved
S4: by God. How did it change you and your role
S4: as a husband? As a father, as a pastor?
S1: Yeah. So that's really the most immediate application of this,
S1: isn't it, that when you understand that there's a guy
S1: like this who's loved you in this way, who loved
S1: you so much that he was willing to come and
S1: become one of us, that the the way in which
S1: God's beloved love really was shown and demonstrated became actualized,
S1: is that the Lord God came to us in the
S1: Son of God in Jesus Christ, and loved us in
S1: this way. Um, that makes a difference, then, for how
S1: we understand who I am as a person that I
S1: value as a husband, as a father, and as a pastor,
S1: that the Lord sees me and loves me and considers
S1: me in this way and, and also empowers me then
S1: in those roles. Um, so this relates to really, um,
S1: the first two chapters of the book about saying, here's
S1: what it is to, to be beloved to God. And
S1: then because of that, here's how you can be beloved,
S1: how you can show a beloved love towards other people.
S1: You know, I'm beloved to you. You're beloved to me
S1: because we're all beloved to God in Christ Jesus. So
S1: one of the more immediate ways in which that happens,
S1: of course, is in my own personal relationships. So as
S1: a husband, I want to love my wife in and
S1: out of the beloved love of God. You might imagine
S1: God's beloved love now flowing from God to me. And
S1: I was in my heart and soul. And this is
S1: Romans five five, right? Uh, God's love has been poured
S1: into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who's been given
S1: to us. And really, the premise of the book is
S1: saying that love is it's not like he was stingy
S1: in that love. He only gave us some of his love.
S1: He poured all of his love into our hearts and
S1: soul by the Holy Spirit. And and that love includes
S1: this beloved love that I'm talking about. And so now
S1: I can love my wife. From that beloved, I see
S1: where the eyes of Jesus and I love her with
S1: that beloved love. I love my children in the same way.
S1: I want to pastor my, uh, people in my church
S1: that same way. But then more generally, for the average Christian,
S1: whatever relationships that you have with other believers, uh, you
S1: want to and can and should love in the same
S1: way that God has loved us in that or that
S1: in and out of that beloved love that's now in
S1: your heart, in your soul, by the Holy Spirit.
S4: So with his love, God's love flowing through us, we
S4: can actually love our wives, even if they are unlovely.
S1: That's right. Um, I mean, it's it's so much of
S1: this is I mean, isn't that what the Scripture says? Right?
S1: I mean, the Lord looked upon his people and we
S1: were unlovely, and yet God's beloved of such a such quality, uh,
S1: such power, um, his love, it actually transforms us and
S1: change us. Which again, I think empowers us to think
S1: of our marriages differently, doesn't it? If God's beloved love
S1: is able to make us lovely, uh. And God is
S1: basically saying that beloved love is not in you, it
S1: can do the same in our own marriage relationships.
S4: Yeah, I think that's helpful to a lot of people,
S4: because there are times in which we have negative feelings
S4: toward our wife because of things she's doing or not doing. And, and,
S4: and we feel like, well, I can't love her the
S4: way she is. Well, you know, if it's God's love
S4: flowing through you, you can. Because he loves her, right?
S1: Yeah. Amen. Amen. You know, so much of two how we.
S1: I think when our spouses are acting this way, our
S1: motivation to change them. We we use other tools. We
S1: try to, you know, maybe shame them or say, well,
S1: don't you read the Bible? You're supposed to be this way.
S1: And yet, um, that's not what God does with us.
S1: He loves us to himself, and that transforms us. So
S1: does the same in our marriages.
S5: Yeah.
S4: So in your book, you explore the concept of love
S4: being expressed in words. So give us some examples of
S4: the importance of using words to communicate love.
S1: See, now we're getting into specifics. Um, you know, God's
S1: love for us is a beloved love. That love is now,
S1: as we now, abide in the Lord. But this first
S1: John says, uh, for John chapter four, you know, God
S1: so loved us. It's not that we love God, but
S1: that God loved us now in some way, that God
S1: loved us. We ought to love one another so that
S1: we're now loving each other in and out of that
S1: beloved love. And really, the the the rest of the
S1: book is multiple chapters of sort of drawing that out
S1: and thinking of it in this way brings in aspects
S1: of love that we might not think about, but particularly
S1: thinking of that sort of metaphor of marriage. So in
S1: a marriage, the words that you use are really important,
S1: as you've written about. Um, for some people it's really
S1: significant how you use words in your marriage relationship. And
S1: I think, uh, so, so much of this is let's
S1: first begin with how God used words over us of love. Uh, really,
S1: God's first words towards us were words of love. Um,
S1: his first thoughts were just words of love. And we'll
S1: begin to see is how much God used his words
S1: to affirm us, to see us, to notice us, to
S1: bless us. That same ability and power and instinct is
S1: within us now by the spirit. And so some of
S1: the ways in which we should use our words are
S1: to to see people and notice people around us. Uh,
S1: and I think that's especially important for those who might
S1: come into our community who have spent maybe most of
S1: the week not being seen, uh, people who live on
S1: the outskirts or marginalized, uh, to use our words to,
S1: to know people's names and to know their stories, um,
S1: to use our words to bless and affirm people. Um,
S1: so this is where we begin to to acknowledge, uh,
S1: to see the goodness of them that the word sees. Again.
S1: It might be hard for us to see it. Uh,
S1: but if we're, uh, asking. Hey, Lord, help me to
S1: see what you see in people. That opens up new
S1: ways and powerful ways. The word will always answer that
S1: prayer and to use our words to bless and affirm others.
S1: And what I'm saying is, those are expressions of love
S1: that bless people. Draw them closer to you and love
S1: and draw us all closer to the Lord.
S4: Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking of Proverbs
S4: chapter 18 and verse 21 says, the the power of
S4: life and death is in the tongue, and we can
S4: give life to people, or we can we can kill
S4: people and we can kill relationships, uh, with the tongue.
S4: So if we're relying on our feelings, we might, uh,
S4: we might be killing people. But if we rely on
S4: his love through us, we're going to give them life, right?
S5: Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Amen.
S4: To, uh, to express love to one another in a
S4: marriage or a community like the church. A person has
S4: to be present. So how do you address the idea
S4: of being present? And can you give us some examples
S4: of that?
S1: Another aspect of how God shows a beloved love towards us.
S1: How we see God's relationship with us being like a
S1: marriage is that God says, I'm going to live with
S1: you when you get married, you live with your spouse. Uh,
S1: I remember when I got married and seeing my wife's
S1: clothes taking up half my closet, and I thought, okay,
S1: this is different. I before this was my entire closet,
S1: and now I have to have someone living with me.
S1: You can't be married to someone unless you're actually going
S1: to live with them. That's one of the more practical
S1: ways which we live. We live that out, and God
S1: does that with us. And I think it's interesting to
S1: see again the kind of God that we have. Um,
S1: but here's the one God, the universe created everything. And
S1: he makes a point of saying, I want to be
S1: with my people. We see that throughout the Old Testament,
S1: of course, uh, he travels with his people, um, the
S1: tabernacle to the temple. Lord, being in our midst, um,
S1: becoming very much realized with Jesus. It's interesting to think
S1: about the fact that Jesus came and lived among us
S1: with with his disciples. He's got. And so, you know,
S1: Jesus could easily just come and done a weekend training
S1: and said, here's what you need to do and left. Uh,
S1: it could have been more efficient and timely. Um, however,
S1: our time effective, that's not what he does. Uh, the
S1: Son of God decides to actually live with us and
S1: live among us. And I think that's that's an important
S1: way in which he's sort of emphasizing the fact that
S1: the Lord's presence is to be with us. And of course,
S1: Jesus promises, uh, when he leaves us, I will never
S1: leave you or forsake you. And that, of course, happens
S1: by the spirit that God not directly lives within us
S1: by His Spirit. And so the Lord lives with us.
S1: And that same, uh, instinct, that same loving desire to
S1: be with us, is now within us and able to
S1: be expressed among us. And so I think it's it's
S1: the importance of love in the life of the church
S1: has to happen by us being present with each other, um,
S1: to put a priority on being in the same places
S1: face to face at regular times with each other. Um,
S1: and I think when we don't have that and we've
S1: seen that in recent years when we cut that apart,
S1: I mean, sometimes we have to for various reasons. Uh,
S1: but it's definitely less than ideal. It actually hurts our community, uh,
S1: that all the things we have technology wise to, to
S1: interface with each other are really sort of accents to
S1: really the primary way in which, uh, we should be interacting,
S1: which is with one another. And so one of the
S1: things I just mentioned is just the importance of shared experiences,
S1: the importance of face to face, uh, worship. Uh, so
S1: the importance of just being in the same place is
S1: regularly how powerful it is that just say, hey, I'm
S1: going to be in the same place every, every week
S1: in this building with other people, and how the Lord
S1: uses that and builds bonds and other. Of shared meals.
S1: There's a lot to say to that in the scriptures.
S1: How much the emphasis on that of neither, of course,
S1: the biblical doctrine of hospitality. Those are the ways in
S1: which you sort of live with one another. And there
S1: are ways, though, practical ways, in which we get to
S1: express love and live in that love.
S3: Well, we hope you're enjoying the conversation between Doctor Gary
S3: Chapman and Pastor Vernon Pierre from Phoenix, Arizona. And we're
S3: talking about his book Dearly Beloved, which I only hear
S3: when there's a wedding. Right. You hear this, dearly beloved.
S3: But no, it's it's more than that. The book that
S3: we're featuring today is subtitled How God's Love for His
S3: Church Deepens our Love for each other. And boy, don't
S3: we need a lot of that. If you're listening to
S3: this podcast because you went to building relationships with us,
S3: then you don't need me to say, go there. But
S3: I want to make sure that, you know, that's where
S3: you can find an awful lot of encouragement for your relationships,
S3: building relationships with us. Maybe send a friend or family member,
S3: somebody in your church. Maybe you get this book and
S3: you do it together in a small group. Just go
S3: to building relationships with us to find out a whole
S3: lot more. And again, thanks for listening to the podcast that.
S2: You're listening to. Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author
S2: of the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages.
S2: Find more ways to strengthen your relationships at our website.
S2: Building Relationships Us. We're talking with author and pastor Vernon
S2: Pierre today. He's the lead pastor at Roosevelt Community Church
S2: in Phoenix, Arizona. If you go to building relationships with us,
S2: you'll see our featured resource, his book, Dearly Beloved How
S2: God's Love for His Church deepens our love for each other. Again,
S2: go to building relationships with us.
S3: Pastor Pierre, just before the break, you were talking about
S3: how important it is to to be face to face
S3: and to dine together. You know, Jesus even says that
S3: in revelation, behold, I stand at the door and knock.
S3: And what's he going to do? Come in and sup,
S3: you know, and eat with you? But what did what
S3: did the pandemic do in your church? It did, you know,
S3: around the country, around the world? It, it did a
S3: number on congregations. What did it do to yours?
S1: I think created conditions by which people and again, for
S1: various reasons, uh, this is, you know, people had to
S1: be separated for one another, um, during the pandemic. But
S1: I think the effect of it was began to almost
S1: build bad habits. And I can put it that way.
S1: And I'm talking about particularly the lingering effects of the
S1: pandemic by which people began to think, well, I can
S1: do church remotely, um, distant from other people. And and
S1: as has been proven, I think multiple churches around the country, um,
S1: people have begun to sort of say, hey, then maybe
S1: it's not as much important for me to be present
S1: with other people. I can I could do church, uh, online. Um,
S1: I can sort of interact with people in those ways.
S1: And I'm not one to sort of suggest that, like,
S1: online is completely useless. I just would say it's it's ancillary.
S1: It's it's, uh, it helps enhance it should be seen
S1: more of a support to really the primary which we
S1: interact with each other, which is face to face in person, um,
S1: that there's a way in which multiple studies have proven this,
S1: that you don't interact with people on screens in the
S1: same way as you do in person with someone. Uh,
S1: we should be surprised by that. Especially as Christians, if
S1: we believe that there's a soul. Right? We believe in
S1: the Holy Spirit. There's something really vital, important about being
S1: in the same place. It's why, you know, for example,
S1: first Corinthians 11, Paul makes such a huge point about
S1: taking communion together, um, that some Christians were eating and
S1: having communion before others. And you can say, well, you know,
S1: that's just sort of time delayed. It's all the same thing.
S1: But I was like, no. When he repeatedly says, when
S1: you come together, when you come together, um, you see
S1: that thread throughout Scripture, the significance of actually being face
S1: to face to each other. The second John at the end,
S1: the second John also talks about, hey, there's more things
S1: that could write to you. But for my joy to
S1: be complete, I have to see you face to face.
S1: So John appreciates the value of the technology of pen
S1: and paper, but he says complete joy only happens if
S1: I can come to you and talk face to face.
S1: So there's something really important, um, supernatural, that happens when
S1: we're in with one another. And I think the pandemic
S1: sort of taught us bad habits or made us begin
S1: to think like these, these other things, other ways of
S1: doing things are equivalent substitutes. They're not, um, they're lesser
S1: versions of really what the word calls us to, which
S1: is to be with one another regularly, to come together regularly, uh,
S1: to do life together.
S4: I think anyone who has been involved in church and
S4: have seen what happened through the pandemic, or just saying
S4: amen to what you've just said because it's so different.
S4: You can communicate information as a pastor to people at home,
S4: you know, who are watching, but it's not. It's not
S4: like the togetherness that you have when you're actually with
S4: the people. So yeah. Well, let me ask this. Uh,
S4: God is the one who willingly initiates his love toward us.
S4: You know, the Bible said we love God because he
S4: first loved us. Do we naturally initiate that same love
S4: toward one another in the church?
S1: Well, we don't, um, I think our, our instincts are to.
S1: And I think this has been shown to initiate towards
S1: people who are more like us, uh, who we feel
S1: more comfortable with or prefer, um, and some degree that
S1: our current climate has reinforced that we're more and more
S1: we're more aware than ever of the differences among us.
S1: It's made us be more likely to want more to,
S1: to to sort of steer away from those kinds of differences,
S1: to not do the difficult work of thinking through how
S1: we might still form relationships with people, even with difference. Uh,
S1: so we don't actually initiate, which is why we need
S1: the words initiating love within us that God first moved
S1: towards us. I mean, it's one of the strongest emphasis
S1: in the Bible is not that we love God, but
S1: that he loved us, that while we were still enemies
S1: of God, that he loved us and moved towards us,
S1: and significance of how God the world leaned towards us,
S1: I think helps us then begin to think of how
S1: we lean in towards others. I think the power of
S1: that of initiative then, is it's not so much about, hey,
S1: how do I notice the things that will allow me
S1: to sort of respond to people? But it's there are
S1: people made in God's image. I see them the way
S1: the God that sees them, and in some respect we
S1: see the potential of what they could be if we
S1: could be in relationship with them, uh, through the Lord's love.
S1: And that allows us to actually take that first move,
S1: to make that first text message or make to initiate
S1: that first conversation. Uh, and again, I think we're encouraged here.
S1: Encouraging thing here is that it's not actually the engine
S1: of my own heart won't rev up enough to be
S1: able to do this, but, uh, it's the Lord's love
S1: within me that's revving up the engine, that's giving me
S1: the ability to to initiate, uh, in the ways of
S1: the Lord is initiated towards me.
S4: Well, in your book you touched upon the theme of
S4: loving through difficulty. Would you share some of the key
S4: points for navigating, you know, challenging times like that?
S1: Yeah. I mean, we can't ignore difficulties in our time.
S1: We can't ignore, um, the type of, uh, conflicts that
S1: happen in relationships. Uh, and so, um, sometimes, I mean,
S1: there's a lot different strategies people have. So some people. Yeah. Will, uh,
S1: will ignore those things. Uh, other people will dismiss it. Uh,
S1: some people will use it as a reason to almost
S1: just go at war with others around them. The conflict
S1: or through difficulty requires, um, a kind of perseverance. First
S1: of all, um, I think that perseverance allows us to
S1: see where we can be and will be and to
S1: continue on in spite of where we are right now. However,
S1: the difficult times manifest themselves in the case of when
S1: it's sort of a personal sort of issues between us,
S1: that ability to sort of begin to understand that, hey,
S1: where we are now isn't where we finally will be.
S1: I think, again, it just gives us, uh, I'll say
S1: a little bit more about this in terms of just
S1: how I think. We think through, uh, conflict, um, sort
S1: of tools. I think that help us when it comes
S1: to conflict. But I think one of the more powerful
S1: things is to begin to say the word is essentially
S1: the word sees where we are now and sticks with
S1: us because he knows eventually what his love will do
S1: among us. So I'm thinking of Ephesians five, where we
S1: see how God, basically Jesus, comes and gives up his
S1: life for us and is loving us to the point
S1: where we might be pure and spotless, right? Uh, wholly
S1: without spot or wrinkle. Any such thing might be holy
S1: and without blemish. The Lord is loving us in that direction.
S1: And so the difficult the difficulty of Jesus being relationship.
S1: Now God sticks with it because he knows our love
S1: is and lead us in that same way. Um, I
S1: think as we engage in difficulty with, as we are
S1: in difficult times or in conflict or whatever it is,
S1: they got huge key point in this is saying, hey,
S1: I have a vision for where we're going, a clear,
S1: crystal clear vision of where we're going and knowing by
S1: continuing to persevere and be with one another, we will
S1: get there.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Have you had to navigate some difficult situations as a pastor?
S1: Oh, I mean my goodness, yes. So many. And it's
S1: not easy. Well, I'm the first to admit I write
S1: about these things. And some of them I'm really good
S1: at doing, others of them. I have to reread the
S1: chapters pretty regularly to remind myself of what I wrote. Um,
S1: because I'm trying to to live out what I know. I.
S1: I know my head, but it's hard to realize in
S1: my heart it's important. I mean, it's to some of
S1: these things I'm talking about, I have to rehearse them
S1: in my heart and mind and say, Holy Spirit, remind
S1: me that this this is within me and help me
S1: to to say and think and talk and move towards people, uh,
S1: out of your eyes, out of your actions, uh, out
S1: of your thoughts. I think that that's helped me a
S1: lot over the years.
S4: I think every pastor can identify with that.
S5: Yeah.
S4: Talk about the biblical concept of covenant and how this
S4: relates to marriage, and then later how it relates to
S4: the church.
S1: Well, covenant is really the word the Bible uses to
S1: describe this committed relationship God has with us. And we
S1: see that it's when God says, I'm going to have
S1: a people and be relationship with people. He doesn't do
S1: anything less than committed relationship. He doesn't casually date us
S1: and he's not okay with just being, hey, we'll just
S1: be roommates with one another. God's saying, I'm going to
S1: commit to you. I'm going to be uniquely commit to.
S1: You're going to have a special relationship with you. So
S1: at Mount Sinai, we see that sense of covenant right
S1: there that God makes a physical chapter 16, verse eight, uh,
S1: I made my vow to you and entered into a
S1: covenant with you, declares the Lord God, and you became mine.
S1: That language. Um, so your mind is, uh, it's ancient language.
S1: It's marriage. Language. Like we belong exclusively, uniquely to each other.
S1: God's going to obligate himself to us, and we're going
S1: to obligate ourselves to him who makes promises to us,
S1: and we make promises to him. And so that there's
S1: a way in which we understand how our relationship with
S1: God is a covenant. Uh, and again, it's, it's language
S1: that's being picked up from, from marriage. Uh, the marriage
S1: relationship is also meant to be is a covenant reflects
S1: the covenant that God has with us. And, you know,
S1: as we've been saying, that's the basis for us then
S1: to be in relationship with each other, isn't it the
S1: God's sort of, uh, commitment to us? Uh, there's a great, uh,
S1: word in the Bible. A Hebrew word said God's steadfast love.
S1: His sort of steady, committed love towards us is the
S1: same sort of sealing bond that we can use in
S1: our relationship with each other. It allows me to say, hey,
S1: the people I'm with aren't just sort of people. I
S1: can kind of, you know, dip in and out of.
S1: I'm I'm committed to them. Um, I am bound to them.
S1: And that bond is the bond of God's love. And again,
S1: that does a lot for how then we think through
S1: what it is to be a members of the church,
S1: what it is for us to affirm the things that
S1: we believe in, the direction that we're going? Um, all
S1: those things, again, flow out of God's first commitment to us,
S1: which allows us to become into each other.
S4: So covenant is different from contract, right? The contract is
S4: I'll do this if you do that. But covenant is different, right?
S1: No, it's exactly right. I mean, a contract is, um. Yeah, it's, uh. Well,
S1: it's almost it's based on a sense of, hey, as
S1: long as you give me this, uh, and then I'll
S1: give you this, and then if that goes away, then
S1: we're done. Um, yeah. You know, marriages do involve promises
S1: and obligations, but, uh, within that, that it's a sense
S1: of to be married. It shouldn't be. You're not in
S1: a relationship with someone. If the only thing you need
S1: to do to break apart that relationship is break a
S1: lease or something like that, or break a contract, a
S1: business contract, I mean, those are easy to break apart.
S1: Marriage is yeah, there's promises and obligations, but it's actually
S1: a knitting together. It's a union. And so to separate,
S1: that's why divorce is so devastating. It's actually severing of yourself. Um,
S1: and so that that sense of covenant, that committed relationship
S1: is meant for the sake of intimate union with one another.
S1: And that's really where the power is.
S4: Pastor Pierre, you also talk about three types of conflict
S4: in marriage. What are those?
S1: The way I approached it was that if you think
S1: about a different kind of conflicts that can happen in
S1: a marriage relationship is what, uh, might call a hot
S1: kind of conflict. I call it hostility. So you're outright
S1: opposed to the other person. And so anything can incite this,
S1: it might be something really serious, like a betrayal, or
S1: it could be even something incidental. But it's just sort
S1: of this really hot war between you and your spouse.
S1: And then there's another type of conflict is disconnection. So
S1: this is more of a slow burn kind of conflict. Uh,
S1: you're sort of isolated. You feel alone from each other,
S1: and you're just you're disconnected. You're you're you're just strangers
S1: to each other. Um, almost more. A little bit of
S1: a Cold War. You could say, um, you're you're together,
S1: but you're pulling apart from each other. The last one
S1: is rejection. So this is an outright hostility towards each other.
S1: You might even still be in the same house, but
S1: you've clearly, definitively rejected each other. You want nothing to
S1: do with one another. And so each of these sort
S1: of are different ways in which conflict can happen in
S1: the marriage.
S4: So how do how do these conflict areas relate to
S4: our relationships in the church?
S1: So in the same way we see that in marriage,
S1: I think those are ways of understanding the kind of
S1: conflicts or categorizing the kind of conflicts that happen in
S1: the life of the church, that there's some people you're
S1: actually you're just you're you're in the same way with
S1: each other instantly becomes heated. Um, there's others. You're just
S1: you're just disconnected. Uh, you you had a relationship, but
S1: it's you're kind of slowly drifting apart. So it's not
S1: you're not running away from each other, but you clearly
S1: don't have. He seems to have less and less in common.
S1: You have not fostered much in relationship with each other, uh,
S1: in the life of church. And there's others. You've completely
S1: rejected that, uh, as almost you have no emotion about
S1: them anymore. You just they're out of your life entirely. And, um,
S1: you know, in describing this, I think it's pretty apparent
S1: what will happen in the life of the church if
S1: these type of things fester. Um, it leads to the
S1: anger to, to, to to lead to abuse. In some cases, uh,
S1: it leads to churches splitting, uh, leads to, um, you know,
S1: in the case of disconnection, longstanding relationships that kind of
S1: drift apart and not for any good reason, but because
S1: there's not enough done to invest in that relationship. And so, uh,
S1: something that's that's lasted for years. I think the pandemic
S1: is a good example of this. People you've had longstanding
S1: relationships with begin to just drift apart. There's nothing to
S1: feel that. So this is incredibly destructive to the kind
S1: of relationships and community we now have in the life
S1: of the church.
S5: Yeah, yeah.
S4: So instead of, uh, spreading conflict, what happens when we
S4: extend grace to one another in the church context?
S1: Yeah. So I think grace is how we answer the
S1: problems that I just listed. Uh, hostility, disconnection, rejection, um,
S1: and even some of the things we've been talking about before,
S1: the kind of reasons why that that crops up and
S1: the reasons why we don't move in love towards one another. Uh,
S1: I mean, grace is just a wonderful doctrine. Uh, there's
S1: a lot of things that are great about Christianity. And
S1: here's here's a shining jewel. Uh, the grace gives us
S1: always the ability to keep the channels of communication open.
S1: Or another way to put it is grace always creates
S1: space for us to deal with our conflicts. Um, and
S1: this isn't to say, like, we should, um, you know,
S1: going back to our previous answer, we're going to ignore
S1: our difficulties or conflicts with one another. This is grace
S1: is a doormat type of thing. Uh, some conflicts require
S1: way more time to deal with. But grace gives us
S1: the ability to create the room by which we might
S1: then deal with conflict. And one of the things I
S1: mentioned in the book is, I think the specific tools
S1: that God gives us then to help us then deal
S1: with our conflicts and to build relationships back together, to
S1: have reconciliation and unity and and love again in the
S1: most vibrant ways. So two of grace. One is sacrifice.
S1: Our ability to to sacrifice our pride to be willing
S1: to enter into the room, uh, with others. Uh, forgiveness
S1: is another one, a willingness to to receive, forgive, to
S1: forgive others for what they've done. But forgiveness has to
S1: be matched by confession, right? Imagine for reconciliation to happen.
S1: There has to be legitimate confession from the other person.
S1: You might be willing to forgive, but the other person
S1: is unwilling to forgive well, unwilling to confess, and then
S1: also repent and maybe even do some type of repair
S1: the relationship. Then the relationship can't be healed. But grace
S1: at least allows you to have the posture of saying, hey,
S1: this room! The room is always going to be open.
S1: Forgiveness for me is I always willing to enter into
S1: this room. And on one side, if we're willing to
S1: enter into the other side of the room through the
S1: door of confession and repentance, then we can begin to
S1: build our relationship again. It's very powerful. It's how we
S1: can navigate the things that will naturally come up between us.
S4: You know, I think most pastors have experienced this over
S4: and over again. And you've alluded to it is how
S4: in the church members get, you know, out of sorts
S4: with each other and sometimes are verbally critical, criticizing each other, uh,
S4: online and all that sort of thing. It breaks the heart,
S4: I think, not only of a pastor, but any Christian.
S4: When they see fellow Christians responding like that. How do
S4: you initiate helping helping the person who is who is
S4: doing that sort of thing?
S1: You know, I think the tools we have to be
S1: online and to communicate are I mean, they're cool and
S1: they've opened up many things, but they're probably some of
S1: the most destructive things for community, particularly anyone who's interested
S1: in building diverse community. Um, our online tools are geared
S1: towards our own self-interest. Um, and they answer, uh, I
S1: might say an instinct that we have to lean in
S1: towards people who are more like us, for the Jews
S1: to be with the Jews and Gentiles, to be with
S1: the Gentiles. But, uh, if that's what you want, then
S1: you got to pick a different religion. Um, when the
S1: church got started, uh, there was not a sort of
S1: a downtown Jerusalem church for only Gentile Christians and then
S1: an uptown Jerusalem church for only the Jewish Christians. Instantly
S1: God said to whatever the Jews were able to. And
S1: I guess, obviously, there's a lot of it's difficult to
S1: do these things, but always have the desire to instinct. Uh,
S1: we're in places where we should be drawing as many
S1: different people together from all different social backgrounds and experiences
S1: and cultures. Um, and when we look at the things
S1: that we have online, we in many ways we've got to, uh,
S1: repudiate them and we we've got to rebuke them in
S1: the name of Jesus and not let them guide our
S1: interactions in our. And we need to use them in
S1: ways that actually go against maybe the ways the companies
S1: want us to use them. But, uh, I think in
S1: powerful ways we can use them to build the kind
S1: of relationships and bonds that we need to. But I
S1: think we need to realize that these tools want to
S1: encourage me to to act this way or to sort
S1: of instantly react to people in ways that are not
S1: of Jesus, that don't bear the fruit of the spirit.
S1: Because I see you the way Jesus sees you. Uh,
S1: I want to use the tools that are around me
S1: to move in towards you and lean towards you. Uh,
S1: the way that you would want me to.
S4: Absolutely. Well, you know, I think this book and this
S4: topic is so important in today's world in which we
S4: we see so much, you know, animosity toward each other
S4: in many, many different places. Uh, I'm reminded of what
S4: Jesus said by this will all men know that you
S4: are my disciples by the way you love each other. So,
S4: you know, he's actually giving the non-Christian world the right
S4: to judge whether or not we're truly following him. Uh,
S4: by the way, we love each other so well. So
S4: I think this book is going to help a lot
S4: of individuals, a lot of churches, a lot of Christians
S4: to draw upon the power that is ours in the
S4: Holy Spirit and with the model we have of God's
S4: love for us. So I just think this is a
S4: super important topic. So I want to thank you for
S4: your investment in putting this book together, and also being
S4: with us today and talking about this topic. So may
S4: God bless you. Continue walking and loving where he's placed you. Okay.
S1: Amen. I so appreciate that.
S3: If you go to the website building Relationships with us,
S3: you'll see Vermont Pierre's book, Dearly Beloved How God's love
S3: for His Church deepens our love for each other. Again,
S3: just go to building relationships with us.
S4: And coming up next week. How facing death with a
S4: loved one transforms our lives.
S2: Don't miss Whitney Pipkin story in one week. Before we go,
S2: let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice.
S2: Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is production of
S2: Moody Radio in Chicago, in association with Moody Publishers, a
S2: ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.