1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,520 S1: Today at the radio backyard fence, we showcase the power 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,520 S1: of God's Word to change a life, to refocus, a heart, 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:17,520 S1: to encourage, to embolden, to provide a path forward to 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,599 S1: real life that comes when you study the scriptures from 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,960 S1: taking in not just information about the Bible or having 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,479 S1: somebody else tell you what the Bible says, but reading 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,080 S1: it yourself, ruminating on it, asking questions, struggling well with 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,040 S1: what you find, with the with the problems that you 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,200 S1: have about what you read in that passage, and then 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,479 S1: listening to others who are interacting with it. Author and 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,680 S1: teacher Jen Wilkin is with us today. She has a 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,120 S1: new study on the book of Joshua. We'll be talking 13 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,840 S1: about that. And that study is our featured resource today, 14 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,480 S1: Chris Fabry Live. But I want you to help us 15 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,800 S1: out by thinking about this question and then answering it. 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,990 S1: You can answer on Facebook or you can give us 17 00:00:59,990 --> 00:01:03,750 S1: a call. I've posted this in the last hour. Encourage 18 00:01:03,750 --> 00:01:07,590 S1: those who've never studied the Bible with others. What happened 19 00:01:07,590 --> 00:01:11,429 S1: to you? What happened when you studied the Bible with others? 20 00:01:11,510 --> 00:01:14,750 S1: Did something good happen in your life? You can go 21 00:01:14,750 --> 00:01:20,550 S1: to Facebook and answer that, or call us at (877) 548-3675 22 00:01:20,550 --> 00:01:23,550 S1: and be as specific as you can be that it 23 00:01:23,550 --> 00:01:25,750 S1: was ten years ago. And this is the room, and 24 00:01:25,750 --> 00:01:28,069 S1: this was the church or the building where you were in. 25 00:01:28,069 --> 00:01:30,630 S1: And this is what happened to you when you were studying. 26 00:01:31,069 --> 00:01:36,589 S1: Fill in the blank. (877) 548-3675. Let me thank our team. 27 00:01:36,590 --> 00:01:40,070 S1: Ryan's away today. Chris Sigurd is at the controls. Tricia 28 00:01:40,069 --> 00:01:43,229 S1: is our producer. Lisa's helping out. Josh will be answering 29 00:01:43,230 --> 00:01:46,990 S1: your calls today. This Friday, I have a special conversation 30 00:01:46,990 --> 00:01:49,790 S1: planned for you because we are going back to October 31 00:01:50,070 --> 00:01:53,670 S1: to hear from Colleen Chow. About four years ago, Colleen 32 00:01:53,670 --> 00:01:58,380 S1: received a terminal diagnosis and it turned her life upside down, 33 00:01:58,380 --> 00:02:01,580 S1: as you can imagine. But God has given her more 34 00:02:01,620 --> 00:02:05,260 S1: days with her family. And a message for you and me. 35 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:08,180 S1: And you'll find it in the new book on our 36 00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:11,380 S1: way home. We talked about that in October. I want 37 00:02:11,380 --> 00:02:14,260 S1: to send you a copy of that book. That might 38 00:02:14,260 --> 00:02:16,900 S1: be the encouragement that you need today. If you go 39 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:20,620 S1: to Chris and scroll down, you'll see how to support 40 00:02:20,620 --> 00:02:23,299 S1: us there and how to receive a copy of that 41 00:02:23,300 --> 00:02:27,060 S1: book on our way home. Reflections on Heaven in the 42 00:02:27,060 --> 00:02:31,580 S1: Face of Death Chris Fabry live. And thanks for being 43 00:02:31,580 --> 00:02:33,859 S1: a friend or a partner with us at the Radio 44 00:02:33,860 --> 00:02:37,940 S1: Backyard Fence Jen Wilkin is an author and Bible teacher 45 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:41,660 S1: from Dallas, Texas. She's organized and led studies for women 46 00:02:41,660 --> 00:02:47,419 S1: in home, church, and parachurch contexts, an advocate for Bible literacy, 47 00:02:47,419 --> 00:02:50,740 S1: which she says there is a Bible literacy crisis. We're 48 00:02:50,740 --> 00:02:53,260 S1: going to talk about that. Her passion is to see 49 00:02:53,300 --> 00:02:57,680 S1: others become articulate and committed followers of Christ with a 50 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,240 S1: clear understanding of why they believe what they believe. Grounded 51 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,720 S1: in the Word of God. She's the author of such 52 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,720 S1: books as ten Words to Live By in His Image, 53 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,000 S1: None Like Him, women of the word. She's co author 54 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,119 S1: of You Are a Theologian and she's written a lot 55 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,519 S1: of studies. Put them together on the book of Revelation 56 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,640 S1: on Genesis, Exodus, first, second, third John, Hebrews, first Peter, 57 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,720 S1: sermon on the Mount. Her latest is Joshua. Every good 58 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,560 S1: promise fulfilled. Jen, welcome. Welcome to the program. How are 59 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:29,320 S1: you doing today? 60 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,920 S2: I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me on. 61 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,520 S1: Tell me about the Bible literacy crisis that you believe 62 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:36,440 S1: we have today. 63 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,240 S2: Yeah, I think we have a lot of people who 64 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,560 S2: have sat in passive learning environments. So in other words, 65 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,560 S2: that would actually, for a lot of us, be when 66 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,760 S2: we listen to a Sunday sermon. But it could be 67 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,000 S2: that we, um, are taking in content about the Bible 68 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,350 S2: in podcast form or even, um, reading commentaries and all 69 00:03:57,390 --> 00:03:59,869 S2: of those things are not bad things. It's just when 70 00:03:59,870 --> 00:04:03,150 S2: they're the only way that we're taking in Scripture, we 71 00:04:03,150 --> 00:04:07,590 S2: have a tendency to lose a sense of firsthand knowledge 72 00:04:07,590 --> 00:04:10,150 S2: of the text and begin to take someone else's word 73 00:04:10,150 --> 00:04:12,510 S2: for it. Uh, not only that, but I think what 74 00:04:12,510 --> 00:04:14,830 S2: we see develop in the church is a sense of 75 00:04:14,830 --> 00:04:18,350 S2: an expert and amateur divide, where the expert stands on 76 00:04:18,350 --> 00:04:22,350 S2: a platform or has a podcast or has written commentaries, 77 00:04:22,550 --> 00:04:24,710 S2: and the rest of us are the amateurs who just 78 00:04:24,710 --> 00:04:28,510 S2: sit and consume how they have digested the scriptures for us. 79 00:04:28,550 --> 00:04:31,950 S2: And so what I'm hoping to see people return to 80 00:04:31,990 --> 00:04:35,510 S2: are active learning spaces where they're in dialogue with each other, 81 00:04:35,510 --> 00:04:38,270 S2: and where they can dialogue with the person who's teaching. 82 00:04:38,270 --> 00:04:39,550 S2: Most of us are not going to raise our hand 83 00:04:39,550 --> 00:04:41,630 S2: in the middle of a sermon and shout out our question. 84 00:04:41,630 --> 00:04:45,630 S2: And we probably shouldn't, candidly. But, um, so when we 85 00:04:45,670 --> 00:04:48,830 S2: don't have spaces like that, we can have a tendency 86 00:04:48,830 --> 00:04:53,030 S2: to become curators of other people's opinions about a book 87 00:04:53,029 --> 00:04:54,940 S2: that we may not be reading ourselves. 88 00:04:55,500 --> 00:05:00,540 S1: Is this a new phenomenon, this Bible literacy crisis, or 89 00:05:00,540 --> 00:05:02,580 S1: has it gone on for a long time? 90 00:05:03,180 --> 00:05:06,100 S2: I would say that it's nothing is new at this 91 00:05:06,100 --> 00:05:09,180 S2: point in the church. And when I speak about the 92 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:12,100 S2: need to to increase Bible literacy and the methods by 93 00:05:12,100 --> 00:05:15,500 S2: which we can do so, I recognize that what I'm 94 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:18,820 S2: trying to do is address an emphasis problem. So it 95 00:05:18,820 --> 00:05:22,220 S2: doesn't mean that other ways of encountering the Scripture are 96 00:05:22,220 --> 00:05:27,300 S2: bad or unhelpful. But when we overemphasize a particular way 97 00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:29,940 S2: of encountering the scriptures at the expense of others is 98 00:05:29,940 --> 00:05:32,060 S2: when things get out of balance. And so I would 99 00:05:32,060 --> 00:05:34,570 S2: say in our generation, I'd say for the last 30 100 00:05:34,570 --> 00:05:39,500 S2: or 40 years, we've seen preaching be regarded as the 101 00:05:39,820 --> 00:05:44,300 S2: primary tool for discipleship, far and away. And again, I 102 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:47,779 S2: love preaching. I think it matters and matters for the 103 00:05:47,779 --> 00:05:50,900 S2: life of the church in critical ways. But then the 104 00:05:50,900 --> 00:05:53,010 S2: other way that we have told people that they're formed 105 00:05:53,010 --> 00:05:56,210 S2: by the scriptures is through devotional content. And and I 106 00:05:56,210 --> 00:05:58,970 S2: would argue that in the particularly in the realm of, like, 107 00:05:59,010 --> 00:06:03,810 S2: the quiet time, the personal devotional time, the lion's share 108 00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:08,010 S2: of content that people are consuming or utilizing is devotional 109 00:06:08,010 --> 00:06:11,050 S2: in nature, and devotional content has its place, but it 110 00:06:11,050 --> 00:06:15,010 S2: does not really train us into knowledge of the scriptures, 111 00:06:15,010 --> 00:06:19,650 S2: because it's typically grabbing from here and there, and it's 112 00:06:19,690 --> 00:06:23,370 S2: often more geared at inspiration than at instruction. 113 00:06:23,730 --> 00:06:26,410 S1: Yeah, because I need encouragement today, and I'm out the 114 00:06:26,410 --> 00:06:29,290 S1: door and I've got five minutes and or I, you know, 115 00:06:29,330 --> 00:06:31,929 S1: can listen to a podcast. And again, nothing wrong with 116 00:06:31,930 --> 00:06:35,330 S1: any of that. But I think what you're calling us to, 117 00:06:35,370 --> 00:06:40,130 S1: and I wholeheartedly agree with you, is there is nobody 118 00:06:40,130 --> 00:06:44,170 S1: who can live your Christian life for you. You can. 119 00:06:44,210 --> 00:06:47,529 S1: I can find quotes from D.L. Moody and Charles Haddon 120 00:06:47,529 --> 00:06:51,960 S1: Spurgeon and Anselm and, you know, church fathers, you know, 121 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,120 S1: Patrick and whoever. I can find them all day long. 122 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,599 S1: They're going to encourage me in my walk. And what 123 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,760 S1: what they had happened to them. But there's nobody that 124 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,840 S1: can pull out a quote for my from my life, 125 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,359 S1: for right here, right now with what we're going through 126 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,760 S1: with Iran and, you know, the Middle East and everything 127 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,840 S1: that's going on and what's going on in your life 128 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,360 S1: and my life and my house and our pets and kids, 129 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,920 S1: you know, all that. There's nobody that's going to give 130 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:22,800 S1: me that kind of of encouragement, like me studying the 131 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,320 S1: word and letting it filter through my own heart and soul. Right. 132 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,880 S2: Right. But also when we encounter the scriptures as a whole, 133 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,880 S2: we expect that they will do more than just encourage us. 134 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,400 S2: They're going to exhort us and convict us as well. 135 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,720 S2: And I do think that a lot of us perceive 136 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,600 S2: or have been told that the Bible is, for example, 137 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,920 S2: God's love letter to us or it's, you know, uh, 138 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,840 S2: somewhere where we go when we need help with a 139 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:53,180 S2: particular issue. And there's an implicit assumption in that, that 140 00:07:53,180 --> 00:07:55,860 S2: I don't think people like really believe, but they can 141 00:07:55,860 --> 00:07:58,220 S2: tend to slip into operating from. And that's that. The 142 00:07:58,220 --> 00:08:01,460 S2: Bible is a book that's primarily about me. And one 143 00:08:01,460 --> 00:08:03,820 S2: of the things that I like to always remind people 144 00:08:03,820 --> 00:08:06,580 S2: of is we recover. Correct emphasis is that the Bible 145 00:08:06,580 --> 00:08:09,780 S2: is first and foremost a book about God. Um, and 146 00:08:09,780 --> 00:08:12,060 S2: so we don't always read it like that. You know, 147 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:14,780 S2: we say, help me get through today with this problem 148 00:08:14,780 --> 00:08:18,700 S2: that I'm having. And we have a very transactional relationship 149 00:08:18,700 --> 00:08:21,860 S2: to the scriptures in particular. If you look at what 150 00:08:21,860 --> 00:08:25,380 S2: I will often call quiet time culture. And now that's 151 00:08:25,380 --> 00:08:27,420 S2: not saying quiet times are bad, but that there's a 152 00:08:27,420 --> 00:08:32,220 S2: whole culture that's grown up around them that is very transactional. Um, 153 00:08:32,220 --> 00:08:34,700 S2: we will often tell people, well, if you don't start 154 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:36,860 S2: your day with Scripture, then your day is going to 155 00:08:36,860 --> 00:08:40,620 S2: go how badly, right? But if you do start it 156 00:08:40,620 --> 00:08:42,420 S2: with Scripture, then your day is going to go great 157 00:08:42,420 --> 00:08:45,060 S2: and do you hear it? I mean, that's actually closer 158 00:08:45,059 --> 00:08:48,130 S2: to the concept of karma, uh, than it is to 159 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:52,970 S2: developing a long term relationship with God through understanding his scriptures, 160 00:08:53,010 --> 00:08:53,570 S2: and have. 161 00:08:53,570 --> 00:08:57,010 S1: Experienced that though I've experienced the you know, I'm busy 162 00:08:57,010 --> 00:08:59,330 S1: today and I don't have time to to do this, 163 00:08:59,570 --> 00:09:02,970 S1: and it feels like the feeling is not karma. The 164 00:09:02,970 --> 00:09:07,650 S1: feeling is disconnection, the the connection that I feel when 165 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:12,610 S1: I start my day. Studying that which doesn't change changes 166 00:09:12,610 --> 00:09:16,090 S1: the way that I look at life and and my heart. 167 00:09:16,130 --> 00:09:17,090 S1: Does that make sense? 168 00:09:17,410 --> 00:09:19,930 S2: Absolutely. And that's why I say there is a right 169 00:09:19,929 --> 00:09:23,250 S2: way to think about having what we often call quiet time. 170 00:09:23,410 --> 00:09:26,650 S2: But many of us have been drawn into a way 171 00:09:26,650 --> 00:09:29,730 S2: of thinking about quiet time, in which it is like 172 00:09:29,770 --> 00:09:31,809 S2: the way to get God on our team, to get 173 00:09:31,809 --> 00:09:33,210 S2: us through the day, or the way to fill up 174 00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:36,250 S2: our spiritual tank to get us through the day. And 175 00:09:36,410 --> 00:09:39,650 S2: there's only so much that we can expect in terms 176 00:09:39,650 --> 00:09:43,490 S2: of learning the scriptures to happen in 15 minutes in 177 00:09:43,490 --> 00:09:47,040 S2: the morning. And that's why I develop resources that help 178 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,320 S2: people have longer exposures, longer and deeper exposures to the 179 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,080 S2: scriptures in a way that is building a sense of 180 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,000 S2: the Bible as a whole versus, um, having the idea that, um, 181 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,520 S2: our quiet time is like a debit account where I 182 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,200 S2: would draw what I need for the day. It's pressing 183 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,360 S2: people to say, well, actually, it's more of a savings 184 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,680 S2: account where you deposit faithful deposits day after day, knowing 185 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,880 S2: that the Lord will yield a return on those investments. Um, 186 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,920 S2: according to his timeline. Because what quiet time culture says 187 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:23,800 S2: is I need a yield on this according to my timeline, 188 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,160 S2: which is I got to go to work in 15 minutes, 189 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,560 S2: and I need a positive emotion. And so again, that's 190 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,920 S2: not how everyone's using a quiet time, but that is 191 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,880 S2: the way this happens. Um, for, for many of us. 192 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,240 S1: Know, but I think I think you put your finger 193 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,240 S1: on the nerve of the struggle and the way that 194 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,480 S1: the last few years this has been coming up time 195 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,230 S1: and time again, it's process versus outcome. And I run 196 00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:48,430 S1: toward the outcome. It's like, okay, I want my life 197 00:10:48,429 --> 00:10:52,470 S1: to go well. And well, less dissonance and more harmony 198 00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:54,790 S1: in my life. And so here's what I'm going to 199 00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:57,750 S1: do to get it. And we forget that the process 200 00:10:58,150 --> 00:11:01,350 S1: is exactly what we read about in Scripture, that God 201 00:11:01,390 --> 00:11:05,030 S1: walks along with Joshua through all of these different things. 202 00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:07,510 S1: He did the same thing with Moses, the up and down, 203 00:11:07,510 --> 00:11:10,589 S1: and didn't get to see the go into the promised land, 204 00:11:10,630 --> 00:11:13,590 S1: that kind of thing. It is the process that he 205 00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:17,709 S1: uses to deepen our trust in him and the resource 206 00:11:17,710 --> 00:11:20,790 S1: that's available to you right now. And there's a lot 207 00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:24,550 S1: of different resources there. There's the study, there's the video, 208 00:11:24,590 --> 00:11:28,390 S1: there's a journal. We've got them linked. Joshua, every good 209 00:11:28,390 --> 00:11:32,309 S1: promise fulfilled. You'll find out more at Chris Fabry live 210 00:11:33,790 --> 00:11:47,060 S1: more straight ahead. Author and Bible teacher Jen Wilkin is 211 00:11:47,059 --> 00:11:49,740 S1: joining us at the back fence today. She has written 212 00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:55,140 S1: a new study, Joshua. Every good promise fulfilled. We're going 213 00:11:55,179 --> 00:11:58,140 S1: to get into it here at the back fence. And 214 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:01,939 S1: if you go to Chris, you'll see more about that 215 00:12:01,940 --> 00:12:04,420 S1: study and some of the resources that are available, some 216 00:12:04,420 --> 00:12:10,180 S1: great resources. Okay. So talk about success then. What is 217 00:12:10,179 --> 00:12:13,340 S1: success with a study like this with Joshua? What is 218 00:12:13,340 --> 00:12:16,980 S1: success for the individual and for the group? 219 00:12:18,059 --> 00:12:21,339 S2: Yeah. So I always have two hopes for any study 220 00:12:21,340 --> 00:12:24,380 S2: that I put together. And the first is that the 221 00:12:24,380 --> 00:12:29,220 S2: individual participant would gain a working knowledge of the book 222 00:12:29,220 --> 00:12:32,540 S2: of the Bible that we're going through. So that means 223 00:12:32,540 --> 00:12:35,819 S2: that at bare minimum, and this may not sound, you know, 224 00:12:35,860 --> 00:12:39,220 S2: like super glamorous, but at bare minimum, they should be 225 00:12:39,220 --> 00:12:41,340 S2: able to pass a pop quiz at the end of 226 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:45,520 S2: the study over basic factual knowledge about the book. So 227 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,840 S2: in other words, they would know the order of the story. Um, 228 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,079 S2: when is Rahab in the story? What's the basic flow 229 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,400 S2: of the the the Canaanite conquest? Um, generally, what were 230 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:02,600 S2: the regional, um, locations of the various tribes? And that 231 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,080 S2: may sound like a small goal, but that's the kind 232 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,720 S2: of thing when I say you're making faithful deposits that, 233 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,680 S2: over time yield a fruit. Um, that's what we're working toward, 234 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,120 S2: because it means that when they read the New Testament, 235 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,520 S2: which is always hyperlinking to the Old Testament, they now 236 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,280 S2: have firsthand knowledge to draw on of the story of Joshua, 237 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,680 S2: to help them with understanding and interpreting the New Testament 238 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,280 S2: and also other areas of the Old Testament. So my 239 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,640 S2: first goal for the individual is that they would have 240 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,439 S2: a working knowledge of the book that we're in, but 241 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:37,040 S2: my second goal is that they would be more comfortable, uh, 242 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,520 S2: reading any book of the Bible, having done this study, 243 00:13:40,630 --> 00:13:42,990 S2: because the study is not just giving them information, it's 244 00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:47,590 S2: giving them tools. So when I write a curriculum, I 245 00:13:47,630 --> 00:13:51,750 S2: use a relatively formulaic approach to asking questions, because I 246 00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:54,510 S2: know that it's not enough to just tell a learner, hey, 247 00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:56,630 S2: you should be asking better questions of the Bible when 248 00:13:56,630 --> 00:13:59,590 S2: you're reading it. People need to be trained into being 249 00:13:59,630 --> 00:14:01,670 S2: able to ask better questions, and so I try to 250 00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:05,190 S2: give them patterns of question asking that can be utilized 251 00:14:05,429 --> 00:14:08,670 S2: no matter what book of the Bible they're in. So 252 00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:11,589 S2: those are the individual goals. But then in the group, 253 00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:15,190 S2: what I hope will happen is that they come into 254 00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:19,590 S2: a group discussion with dissonance. So that's the goal of 255 00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:23,190 S2: the personal study time is to give you a sense of, oh, 256 00:14:23,230 --> 00:14:24,990 S2: I don't I don't know that as well as I 257 00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:28,230 S2: probably should. And I'm not really sure how to answer 258 00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:30,310 S2: the question that says, what do you think is going 259 00:14:30,310 --> 00:14:33,270 S2: on here? Um, and so they get into their group 260 00:14:33,270 --> 00:14:36,950 S2: and they have an opportunity to feel their way forward together. 261 00:14:36,990 --> 00:14:38,750 S2: What did you get on that question? Well, this is 262 00:14:38,750 --> 00:14:41,980 S2: what I got on that question. Um, there's a saying 263 00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:44,100 S2: that my colleagues and I at training the church have, 264 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:46,940 S2: and it's all theology is done in community. That's where 265 00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:49,540 S2: it's meant to be done. And so, you know, one 266 00:14:49,540 --> 00:14:52,180 S2: of the things that happens when we have an overemphasis 267 00:14:52,180 --> 00:14:56,780 S2: on personal study time is that we forget the significance 268 00:14:56,780 --> 00:15:01,300 S2: of shared conversation, and all personal study time should be 269 00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:05,420 S2: pointing towards shared conversation. That's another one of the issues 270 00:15:05,420 --> 00:15:07,740 S2: I have with quiet time culture is that it tells 271 00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:10,860 S2: us the most important interaction you have with Scripture is 272 00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:14,540 S2: your personal interaction. Now it's important, but all of that 273 00:15:14,540 --> 00:15:18,460 S2: should be pointing towards shared conversation and then receiving teaching. 274 00:15:18,780 --> 00:15:22,580 S2: That is, teaching toward the dissonance that was created for 275 00:15:22,580 --> 00:15:25,900 S2: you and your personal study time, and in your shared conversations. 276 00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:27,380 S1: What do you mean by dissonance? 277 00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,420 S2: Well, dissonance is something that in our current day and age, 278 00:15:31,420 --> 00:15:33,700 S2: we don't like to feel, and we have many people 279 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:36,180 S2: who are telling us that we don't have to. So 280 00:15:36,620 --> 00:15:39,850 S2: we live in an instant gratification culture. And so if 281 00:15:39,850 --> 00:15:42,770 S2: I have a nagging question, I can now go to 282 00:15:42,810 --> 00:15:47,330 S2: ChatGPT and have it give me the answer in milliseconds. 283 00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:51,010 S2: And previous generations didn't have that. They had to sit 284 00:15:51,010 --> 00:15:54,330 S2: with their existential crises a lot longer than we do. 285 00:15:54,730 --> 00:15:58,090 S2: And when you look at learning theory, what you discover 286 00:15:58,090 --> 00:16:00,890 S2: is that the way that we learn things to retain 287 00:16:00,890 --> 00:16:05,050 S2: them is that we feel dissonance. We feel that crisis 288 00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:09,410 S2: point of, oh, I don't actually know what the answer is. 289 00:16:09,690 --> 00:16:11,210 S2: And then we have to sit in it for a 290 00:16:11,210 --> 00:16:14,610 S2: little bit so that when we finally have the aha moment, 291 00:16:14,730 --> 00:16:17,450 S2: it's going to stick. One of the reasons that our 292 00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:20,330 S2: listeners have probably googled the same thing multiple times is 293 00:16:20,330 --> 00:16:23,610 S2: because it's so easy for us to access information that 294 00:16:23,610 --> 00:16:26,330 S2: it doesn't get written on our brains the way that 295 00:16:26,330 --> 00:16:29,170 S2: it should, because we haven't had to sit in dissonance. 296 00:16:29,370 --> 00:16:35,130 S1: Wow. You've just explained because I both read and write. 297 00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:39,229 S1: Try to fiction. And what you've just said about dissonance 298 00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:42,510 S1: is exactly what keeps people turning pages. You get a 299 00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:44,870 S1: character that you care about and they get it. You 300 00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:46,830 S1: get him into trouble, and then you get him into 301 00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:49,630 S1: more trouble. And you wonder how in the world is 302 00:16:49,630 --> 00:16:52,190 S1: that there's no way they can get out of this. 303 00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:56,070 S1: And it's like, you go through that and you identify 304 00:16:56,070 --> 00:16:59,270 S1: with that person and the questions that they're asking of 305 00:16:59,350 --> 00:17:02,430 S1: their life, and where's God and all this? And that 306 00:17:02,430 --> 00:17:05,150 S1: pulls you through. It's the same thing in the scriptures, 307 00:17:05,150 --> 00:17:07,109 S1: that dissonance. Dissonance, right? 308 00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:10,870 S2: Absolutely. Yes. And it's meant to be resolved in community. 309 00:17:11,109 --> 00:17:12,869 S2: And that's why I think we see such a huge 310 00:17:12,910 --> 00:17:15,429 S2: wave of deconstruction in the church, is because many of 311 00:17:15,430 --> 00:17:19,550 S2: us were discipled into a way of pursuing knowledge or 312 00:17:19,550 --> 00:17:23,870 S2: inspiration from the scriptures that was predicated almost entirely on 313 00:17:23,869 --> 00:17:27,390 S2: our personal interactions. And therefore, when we hit the soul 314 00:17:27,430 --> 00:17:29,830 S2: sucking question, it doesn't occur to us that there might 315 00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:34,350 S2: have been generations of other good thinkers who have thought 316 00:17:34,350 --> 00:17:36,780 S2: through those things as they relate to the scriptures. And 317 00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:40,180 S2: so we have that conversation with ourself. And when our 318 00:17:40,220 --> 00:17:43,899 S2: when we can't in our own experience provide a satisfactory answer, 319 00:17:44,100 --> 00:17:46,660 S2: we think the whole thing must not hold together. 320 00:17:47,580 --> 00:17:50,900 S1: You are swimming upstream though, Jenn, and I don't say 321 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:55,020 S1: that as a criticism. It's it's everything in the culture 322 00:17:55,020 --> 00:17:58,540 S1: around us is doing. What you just said about AI 323 00:17:59,220 --> 00:18:02,340 S1: is get the quick answer, get the the very first 324 00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:04,900 S1: thing that pops up in your search engines so that 325 00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:08,500 S1: you can feel feel better. You know, everything wants us 326 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:11,379 S1: to feel better. And I want to feel better. I 327 00:18:11,380 --> 00:18:14,700 S1: just there's nothing wrong about feeling better, but it's like, 328 00:18:14,859 --> 00:18:16,859 S1: do you really? Do you want truth here? Do you 329 00:18:16,859 --> 00:18:19,980 S1: want real answers, or do you just want to feel better? 330 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:20,899 S1: And when you. 331 00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:22,500 S2: Feel a sense of accomplishment. 332 00:18:22,540 --> 00:18:27,260 S1: Right. So what is what is that whole AI thing 333 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:31,619 S1: doing then to, uh, Bible study and getting the word 334 00:18:31,619 --> 00:18:32,740 S1: inside of here? 335 00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:35,690 S2: Well, it's not just AI. It's, it's it's pretty much 336 00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:40,290 S2: everything in our culture that's telling us that delayed gratification 337 00:18:40,290 --> 00:18:45,050 S2: is a problem for a previous generation. That instant gratification 338 00:18:45,050 --> 00:18:47,610 S2: is not just what we can have, but it's what 339 00:18:47,609 --> 00:18:50,770 S2: we should have. And I just always like to remind 340 00:18:50,770 --> 00:18:56,490 S2: believers that Christianity is by definition, a religion of delayed gratification. 341 00:18:56,609 --> 00:19:00,210 S2: We await a coming Savior, and we, uh, so much 342 00:19:00,210 --> 00:19:03,570 S2: of the Bible is talking about how to wait. And 343 00:19:03,570 --> 00:19:07,930 S2: everything around us, the world's wisdom narrative, its false story, 344 00:19:07,930 --> 00:19:10,850 S2: is that waiting is an enemy to be neutralized instead 345 00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:13,330 S2: of a friend to be embraced. And so when we 346 00:19:13,369 --> 00:19:16,090 S2: come to the scriptures, do we think of them as 347 00:19:16,410 --> 00:19:21,490 S2: a tool for yielding us an immediate morsel of understanding 348 00:19:21,490 --> 00:19:25,929 S2: or inspiration? Or do we understand that, like everything else 349 00:19:25,930 --> 00:19:30,330 S2: in the call to take up our cross and follow Jesus, 350 00:19:30,330 --> 00:19:34,480 S2: these two will require effort on our part, and that 351 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,879 S2: there will be delayed gratification in the process. 352 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,760 S1: Was there a person who showed you the power of 353 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,840 S1: this that you can point to and say, yeah, this 354 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,320 S1: person showed me the way? 355 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,439 S2: Oh gosh, I've had multiple influences. One of the greatest 356 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,920 S2: influences on me has been R.C. Sproul, who was just 357 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:00,760 S2: determined that the average learner and that's not a condescending phrase, 358 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,520 S2: it's just to capture the typical person in the pews. 359 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,280 S2: I consider myself to be an average learner that the 360 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:12,120 S2: average learner is capable of, um, understanding deep truth when 361 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:17,520 S2: it is presented in accessible ways. And um, but that 362 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,440 S2: all things that are worth learning are hard to learn. 363 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,680 S2: They require effort, and we initially feel very dumb when 364 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,159 S2: we start to learn them. So that's the the example 365 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,869 S2: I'll often point to is when my son started piano lessons. Um, 366 00:20:34,869 --> 00:20:38,030 S2: by all indicators, he should have quit after the first 367 00:20:38,030 --> 00:20:40,710 S2: couple of weeks because he wasn't good at it. He 368 00:20:40,710 --> 00:20:45,470 S2: didn't get measurably better right away. It took ten years. Um, 369 00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:50,310 S2: but when we persevere in in a skill, there is 370 00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:52,870 S2: a yield when we're given tools and not just information. 371 00:20:52,869 --> 00:20:54,590 S2: And so, like, in the same way that he had 372 00:20:54,590 --> 00:20:57,750 S2: to learn just the basic skill of playing the piano. 373 00:20:57,910 --> 00:21:00,710 S2: Imagine if his piano teacher had just taught him an 374 00:21:00,710 --> 00:21:03,590 S2: appreciation for classical music by having him listen to her 375 00:21:03,590 --> 00:21:08,270 S2: play each week. Um, that's where most of us find 376 00:21:08,270 --> 00:21:11,070 S2: our discipleship path. Right now we are listening to someone 377 00:21:11,070 --> 00:21:13,430 S2: else play the piano, but we're not learning to play 378 00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:14,310 S2: it ourselves. 379 00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:19,030 S1: So we're never we're not formed. We just are, as 380 00:21:19,030 --> 00:21:22,230 S1: you say, passive. We just listen and then call it 381 00:21:22,230 --> 00:21:26,389 S1: our own. And some of it sticks and some doesn't. 382 00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:32,490 S1: And we just become performative rather than it's like seeing 383 00:21:32,490 --> 00:21:35,890 S1: a great meal in a picture and actually sitting down 384 00:21:35,890 --> 00:21:37,090 S1: and eating it. Right. 385 00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:40,530 S2: Mhm. Mhm. Or like always eating a meal that was 386 00:21:40,530 --> 00:21:44,650 S2: prepared in a restaurant. But you never actually cooked it yourself. And, 387 00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:46,850 S2: and so I think that you know we have this 388 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:50,050 S2: misconception about the scriptures that well I mean the spirit 389 00:21:50,050 --> 00:21:52,930 S2: has inspired them. They're needful for life and godliness. And 390 00:21:52,930 --> 00:21:56,490 S2: so why wouldn't the Lord just make it super easy 391 00:21:56,530 --> 00:21:59,530 S2: for the spirit to communicate truth to me? And while 392 00:21:59,530 --> 00:22:02,490 S2: there is certainly a plain reading of the scriptures that 393 00:22:02,490 --> 00:22:06,690 S2: is beneficial to all of us. Um, the Bible was 394 00:22:06,690 --> 00:22:09,810 S2: given to us in book form, and so we should 395 00:22:09,810 --> 00:22:11,730 S2: expect that if it's hard for us to read the 396 00:22:11,770 --> 00:22:14,169 S2: works of Shakespeare, it's probably going to be hard for 397 00:22:14,170 --> 00:22:16,530 S2: us to read the scriptures and have an immediate yield 398 00:22:16,530 --> 00:22:19,050 S2: on them. And the spirit does work through them. But 399 00:22:19,050 --> 00:22:21,650 S2: we shouldn't assume that the way the spirit works through 400 00:22:21,650 --> 00:22:24,929 S2: them is to deliver deep truth to us, according to 401 00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:27,169 S2: our timelines and our minimal effort. 402 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,120 S1: You know, some of the biggest moments of dissonance I've 403 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,320 S1: had on this program, or as just as a person 404 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,600 S1: who asks questions is with R.C. Sproul, because he he 405 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,440 S1: would not suffer my unintelligence. You know, he would, I 406 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,320 S1: would I would say something and he'd push back on it. 407 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,440 S1: And it's like, well, wait a minute, what about this? 408 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,040 S1: And he but he would get down in the trenches 409 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,040 S1: with me. He never made me feel stupid, but he 410 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,760 S1: would say, well, you say that, but is that really 411 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,320 S1: what you mean? Because you know. And then leading you, 412 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,439 S1: leading to you to the logical conclusion of what you 413 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,760 S1: are saying about the scriptures or yourself? That was what 414 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,040 S1: he was really good. And it was painful. It was 415 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,000 S1: painful to do that. But it was very instructive. And 416 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,440 S1: I always felt like, uh, that when he was teaching, 417 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,720 S1: I could see still online, you see him teaching or 418 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,160 S1: just having a conversation with him. He was for you 419 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,070 S1: to be able to understand what it was that the 420 00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:29,470 S1: Bible really was saying. 421 00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:32,950 S2: Right? Loving God with our minds and what I have seen, 422 00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:36,910 S2: you know, the vast majority of my ministry has impacted 423 00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:39,750 S2: what I affectionately refer to as the estrogen pond of 424 00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:44,430 S2: women's ministry. And nowhere else is there a more pronounced 425 00:23:44,430 --> 00:23:49,710 S2: expression of wanting to approach God almost entirely from our 426 00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:52,830 S2: feelings level interaction with the Scripture than there is there. 427 00:23:53,150 --> 00:23:55,830 S2: And so much of what I want to do is 428 00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:59,190 S2: invite women in particular, but people in general, back to 429 00:23:59,230 --> 00:24:02,910 S2: a thinking level interaction with the Scripture, a thought level 430 00:24:02,910 --> 00:24:06,869 S2: interaction which should then transfer to a feelings like our 431 00:24:06,869 --> 00:24:09,949 S2: feelings should be informed by right thinking. But I think 432 00:24:09,950 --> 00:24:13,910 S2: so often when we're wrestling with like a dry season 433 00:24:13,910 --> 00:24:16,830 S2: in our faith, we think I just need to feel better. 434 00:24:16,869 --> 00:24:19,869 S2: Like I need to get my feelings going again by 435 00:24:19,910 --> 00:24:22,229 S2: feeling more. And so, you know, we crank up praise 436 00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:26,260 S2: music or we, you know, whatever. But really, if we 437 00:24:26,260 --> 00:24:28,820 S2: want to feel deeply about God, we must learn to 438 00:24:28,859 --> 00:24:32,860 S2: think deeply about God. And so that's what I'm trying 439 00:24:32,859 --> 00:24:34,580 S2: to do. I believe it's what R.C. Sproul was trying 440 00:24:34,580 --> 00:24:38,900 S2: to do from a theology standpoint, like a systematic theology standpoint. 441 00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:41,180 S2: And what I'm trying to do is attack it from 442 00:24:41,180 --> 00:24:42,940 S2: a biblical theology standpoint. 443 00:24:43,220 --> 00:24:45,900 S1: That's Jen Wilkin. She said a number of things here 444 00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:48,540 S1: that we could do a whole week on just a 445 00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:50,660 S1: couple of the statements, but I'm going to open lines 446 00:24:50,940 --> 00:24:52,980 S1: and let you answer the question that I had a 447 00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:56,020 S1: little earlier. Or if you have a question for her. 448 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:58,979 S1: One of the main questions that I would love to 449 00:24:59,020 --> 00:25:02,500 S1: hear from you is, Jan, I really want to lead 450 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:04,859 S1: a study like this, but I'm scared. I don't know 451 00:25:04,859 --> 00:25:07,180 S1: if I have what it takes. I want you to 452 00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:09,260 S1: talk about that in our next segment. If you go 453 00:25:09,260 --> 00:25:14,180 S1: to Chris org, you'll see our featured resource Joshua every 454 00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:20,180 S1: good promise fulfilled. It's at Chris. Org click through today's information. 455 00:25:20,180 --> 00:25:26,330 S1: You'll see it right there. But here's the number (877) 548-3675. 456 00:25:26,369 --> 00:25:29,330 S1: You have a question along these lines, or an answer 457 00:25:29,330 --> 00:25:34,250 S1: to my question about encouraging someone else who has never 458 00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:36,850 S1: studied the Bible with others. Have you been in a 459 00:25:36,850 --> 00:25:40,410 S1: group study? What happened to you that made you want 460 00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:43,929 S1: to do this again? What were the what were the 461 00:25:43,930 --> 00:26:05,010 S1: positive outcomes? (877) 548-3675. What a pleasure to have Jen Wilkin 462 00:26:05,050 --> 00:26:10,050 S1: Wilkin with us. Author Bible teacher from Dallas. You can 463 00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:12,610 S1: find out more about her and the new study. Joshua. 464 00:26:12,650 --> 00:26:18,649 S1: Every good promise fulfilled at the website Chris Fabriclive. Chris 465 00:26:18,650 --> 00:26:23,590 S1: Fabry live on Facebook, I said encourage those who've never 466 00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:26,390 S1: studied the Bible with others what happened? Eddie said it's 467 00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:29,550 S1: eye opening, especially when your Bible study is taught by 468 00:26:29,550 --> 00:26:32,869 S1: your pastor. I'm not a new believer, but I'm sure 469 00:26:32,910 --> 00:26:37,989 S1: learning a lot. Um, so the the learning when you 470 00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:40,790 S1: have is there a is there a struggle when your 471 00:26:40,790 --> 00:26:43,630 S1: pastor is leading the study and there's there's nothing wrong 472 00:26:43,630 --> 00:26:46,590 S1: with your pastor leading the study, but you can get 473 00:26:46,590 --> 00:26:50,709 S1: into that passive, you know, give me more information like that, right. 474 00:26:50,750 --> 00:26:53,350 S2: Jenn, you could I mean, I think it depends on 475 00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:56,990 S2: your pastor, right? Uh, I think that the more that 476 00:26:56,990 --> 00:27:01,429 S2: those who are in a formal leadership role at the 477 00:27:01,430 --> 00:27:04,390 S2: church can remember the way that they have learned the 478 00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:09,950 S2: most impactful, uh, things, the more likely that a teaching 479 00:27:09,950 --> 00:27:12,230 S2: environment is going to be a true teaching environment and 480 00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:14,870 S2: not a lecture. So it should be dialogic. There should 481 00:27:14,869 --> 00:27:19,190 S2: be an opportunity to stop and to slow down and 482 00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:22,500 S2: repeat things and to dig deeper to ask a follow 483 00:27:22,540 --> 00:27:26,740 S2: up question. Um, and I do think that sometimes the 484 00:27:26,740 --> 00:27:31,020 S2: longer pastors preach, the the more forgetful they can be 485 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:33,619 S2: of those times where maybe they were in seminary or 486 00:27:33,619 --> 00:27:35,419 S2: maybe it was a Sunday school class years ago. I 487 00:27:35,420 --> 00:27:38,859 S2: always encourage people think about the most impactful teacher that 488 00:27:38,859 --> 00:27:40,780 S2: you've ever known and what made them a good teacher, 489 00:27:40,780 --> 00:27:43,220 S2: and then try to be like that. And there's always 490 00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:46,820 S2: room for dialogue in those, in those, uh, remembrances. 491 00:27:46,859 --> 00:27:49,580 S1: I want to jump in for me. I can remember 492 00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:53,740 S1: when I was in high school and and Jean DeVos 493 00:27:53,780 --> 00:27:56,459 S1: was leading this study on Ephesians, and I, you know, 494 00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:59,420 S1: I'd heard about Ephesians, but and she went through this. 495 00:27:59,460 --> 00:28:01,100 S1: I still could see that in my mind. I could 496 00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:04,300 S1: still see this little green book. And it was the questions, 497 00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:07,780 S1: especially in chapter one, is this really true? What does 498 00:28:07,780 --> 00:28:11,740 S1: this mean? Right. You know, and and it's the questions 499 00:28:11,740 --> 00:28:15,420 S1: that she was asking and leading us not to just 500 00:28:15,420 --> 00:28:17,940 S1: spit back the right answer, but to chew on it 501 00:28:17,940 --> 00:28:21,330 S1: and to, um. Now, here's a question from Mark on Facebook. 502 00:28:21,330 --> 00:28:25,090 S1: He says, Chris, are the genealogy sections really important? And 503 00:28:25,090 --> 00:28:28,530 S1: that's the same question in Joshua. Are all those land 504 00:28:28,530 --> 00:28:32,410 S1: allotment sections? I mean, a little boring there? Jen, what 505 00:28:32,410 --> 00:28:33,130 S1: do you think? 506 00:28:34,130 --> 00:28:38,210 S2: Oh, this is my favorite question I am I'm actually 507 00:28:38,210 --> 00:28:41,890 S2: known for having hot takes on genealogies. Yes. I mean, 508 00:28:41,930 --> 00:28:44,330 S2: I know that we all know that all Scripture is 509 00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:47,010 S2: God breathed and profitable, so therefore they must be profitable. 510 00:28:47,050 --> 00:28:49,290 S2: But but I do think we struggle to see the 511 00:28:49,290 --> 00:28:54,130 S2: profitability of them. And some of that is because, um, 512 00:28:54,490 --> 00:28:57,850 S2: we don't think about things from the perspective of the 513 00:28:57,850 --> 00:29:01,290 S2: original audience. Like, I think we have to ask, why 514 00:29:01,610 --> 00:29:04,410 S2: has this been preserved all of these years? Like, apparently 515 00:29:04,410 --> 00:29:07,890 S2: it was interesting to the people these books were written for, 516 00:29:08,290 --> 00:29:11,890 S2: you know, uh, 1500 years ago or however many years ago, 517 00:29:11,890 --> 00:29:14,530 S2: a book, a particular book was written. And so when 518 00:29:14,530 --> 00:29:19,040 S2: you think about the genealogies, when you are a wandering 519 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:24,160 S2: nation with a basically rootless the significance of needing to 520 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,800 S2: preserve those lineages. Um, you know, you go into exile 521 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,040 S2: and all of that where your oral history needs to 522 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,280 S2: be preserved. Not everyone's going to have a copy of these. 523 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,280 S2: And so people committed them to memory, and it begins 524 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,080 S2: to become more clear why they were important. It's a 525 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,320 S2: way of archiving and of having, you know, what was 526 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,400 S2: what was Israel always told to do. Remember. Don't forget. 527 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,240 S2: And so, um, I think when you start to ask, well, 528 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,320 S2: why was it important that they remember these names, or 529 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,560 S2: why was it important that they remember where the boundary 530 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,040 S2: lines had fallen in pleasant places, to borrow from the Psalms? Um, 531 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,840 S2: then they their, their immediate usefulness becomes more obvious to us. 532 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,160 S2: But then it's like, well, what am I supposed to 533 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,760 S2: do with that today? And I would say, look for 534 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,680 S2: the spiritual principle that underlies it. The genealogies are beautiful 535 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,040 S2: to us because when we read them and different genealogies 536 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,280 S2: accomplish different things, but when we read them, we recognize 537 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,630 S2: that God doesn't look down on a teeming mass of humanity. 538 00:30:17,950 --> 00:30:23,350 S2: He sees individuals and he forms relationships with individuals. And 539 00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:25,070 S2: I think that's one of the beautiful truths that we 540 00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:27,070 S2: find in the genealogies. If you want to hear more 541 00:30:27,070 --> 00:30:28,790 S2: about that, you'd have to do my Genesis study. 542 00:30:30,430 --> 00:30:33,230 S1: Well, and they all go together, too, because you can't 543 00:30:33,230 --> 00:30:37,470 S1: really understand Joshua without understanding Genesis and the and the covenant, 544 00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:39,830 S1: the promise that God gave Abraham. Right? 545 00:30:40,390 --> 00:30:42,790 S2: Well, and even with the land allotments like you, you 546 00:30:42,830 --> 00:30:48,150 S2: don't understand later portions of the scriptures, you don't understand 547 00:30:48,150 --> 00:30:51,110 S2: why a conflict is the kind of conflict it is 548 00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:54,470 S2: if you don't know who lived where. And you know 549 00:30:54,510 --> 00:30:58,510 S2: you don't understand why this enemy coming up against Israel 550 00:30:58,510 --> 00:31:01,470 S2: again is such a horrible thing. If you don't understand 551 00:31:01,470 --> 00:31:03,950 S2: the history of when they did before. And I realized 552 00:31:03,950 --> 00:31:06,710 S2: that when I say this, people are thinking, I just 553 00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:09,430 S2: don't really care about all that. And and I would 554 00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:11,310 S2: just urge you to remember that the way that we 555 00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:15,010 S2: develop an interest and a passion for things is actually 556 00:31:15,010 --> 00:31:18,010 S2: through learning about them. Uh, you may have an initial 557 00:31:18,010 --> 00:31:20,210 S2: draw to something that then the more you know about it, 558 00:31:20,210 --> 00:31:22,450 S2: the more you sort of become a I'm air quoting 559 00:31:22,450 --> 00:31:26,930 S2: expert on it, the more you love that thing. And 560 00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:32,090 S2: that's actually demonstrably true in, in modern sociological research that 561 00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:35,130 S2: we our affection for something, our interest for something grows 562 00:31:35,330 --> 00:31:36,610 S2: as we learn about it. 563 00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:40,290 S1: Yeah. Jen Wilkin is with us today. All right. So 564 00:31:40,330 --> 00:31:43,410 S1: talk to the woman, especially who's listening, who says, I've 565 00:31:43,410 --> 00:31:46,770 S1: always wanted to to lead a study like this. And 566 00:31:46,770 --> 00:31:51,250 S1: Joshua might be just the thing, but but I don't 567 00:31:51,250 --> 00:31:53,490 S1: know if I have what it takes or I'm afraid 568 00:31:53,490 --> 00:31:55,730 S1: that somebody's going to ask a question, and I don't 569 00:31:55,730 --> 00:31:57,650 S1: know the answer to it. What do you say to 570 00:31:57,690 --> 00:31:58,290 S1: that person? 571 00:31:58,810 --> 00:32:02,570 S2: Yeah, I like to encourage those who are thinking about 572 00:32:02,570 --> 00:32:05,570 S2: doing something like this, that everybody has a living room, 573 00:32:05,570 --> 00:32:08,250 S2: and that living room can be put to good use, 574 00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:12,209 S2: and that when we stop believing that we have to 575 00:32:12,210 --> 00:32:16,400 S2: be an expert, to step into that leadership space and 576 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,520 S2: begin to understand that we're co-learners and facilitators. Then the 577 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,920 S2: ball starts to roll. Now I teach the Bible. I 578 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,680 S2: do believe the Lord gives people teaching gifts so that 579 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,000 S2: there are some of us that are going to be 580 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,760 S2: further along in our understanding than others. But with a 581 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,240 S2: study like mine, that's why we provide access to the 582 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,040 S2: teaching videos, and they're an essential piece of the learning outcome. 583 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,280 S2: You're not meant to just do the workbook work. The 584 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,000 S2: workbook work is supposed to create your sense of dissonance. 585 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,680 S2: That then pushes you toward the group discussion and the 586 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,920 S2: teaching outcome. But as someone who's leading this in a home, 587 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,760 S2: all you're responsible for is being a co-learner who keeps 588 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,800 S2: the discussion on track to prepare people to hear the 589 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,240 S2: teaching piece. And that's something that, in my experience as 590 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,400 S2: a local church practitioner, I find many people feel qualified 591 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,239 S2: to do. Not everyone's going to feel like they can 592 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,719 S2: stand up and teach the lesson, but a lot of 593 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,590 S2: people feel comfortable leading a thought level discussion that points 594 00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:16,990 S2: people toward the teaching that's going to come. 595 00:33:17,030 --> 00:33:19,910 S1: I watched the video on your website where you said 596 00:33:19,910 --> 00:33:22,790 S1: there are you're speaking to leaders and you said there 597 00:33:22,790 --> 00:33:25,670 S1: are two issues that you're going to need to deal with. 598 00:33:25,710 --> 00:33:28,630 S1: I guarantee it's going to come up. One is shock 599 00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:32,150 S1: and the other is boredom and boredom. We've kind of 600 00:33:32,510 --> 00:33:36,430 S1: talked a little bit about the the land allotment and 601 00:33:36,430 --> 00:33:39,990 S1: kings and, you know, the lists and everything, but the 602 00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:44,590 S1: shock is the conquest of the Canaanites, destroying the cities. 603 00:33:44,590 --> 00:33:48,270 S1: Destroy all the people, you know, kill everything. Yeah. And 604 00:33:48,270 --> 00:33:50,870 S1: so what do you how do you deal with that shock? 605 00:33:51,710 --> 00:33:54,350 S2: Well, I think you have to acknowledge that it's valid. 606 00:33:54,350 --> 00:33:58,590 S2: I think these are shocking stories. Um, but there's always 607 00:33:58,590 --> 00:34:02,390 S2: a question beneath questions that have to do with, like, 608 00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:05,070 S2: you know, wow, how is this even in the Bible? 609 00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:08,510 S2: And the question I think that hovers beneath those questions 610 00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:11,140 S2: is one that we have to get to and that 611 00:34:11,140 --> 00:34:15,620 S2: is is God good? And um, so there are two 612 00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:18,940 S2: ways to think about Bible interpretation. One is that you 613 00:34:18,980 --> 00:34:21,460 S2: come at it from a position of disbelief, which is 614 00:34:21,460 --> 00:34:24,299 S2: God is not good, therefore. And the other is that 615 00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:26,660 S2: you come out from a position of belief that says, 616 00:34:26,660 --> 00:34:28,739 S2: If God is good, then how can what I'm reading 617 00:34:28,739 --> 00:34:32,980 S2: here possibly be illustrating that he is good? And I 618 00:34:32,980 --> 00:34:36,500 S2: think both of those dispositions are fair. I think that 619 00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:40,780 S2: the person who is a Christian is striving very hard 620 00:34:40,780 --> 00:34:43,020 S2: to come from the one that says, I know that 621 00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:45,779 S2: God is good, and the reason that that one is 622 00:34:45,780 --> 00:34:48,540 S2: a reliable one, from my view, is because we have 623 00:34:48,540 --> 00:34:51,500 S2: to take into account all of Scripture. The book of 624 00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:54,300 S2: Joshua doesn't exist in a vacuum, right? And so if 625 00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:57,819 S2: God is demonstrably good in the rest of Scripture, then 626 00:34:57,820 --> 00:35:00,779 S2: this must be another book that contributes to our understanding 627 00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:03,700 S2: of the goodness of God. Um, and also, if you're 628 00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:06,899 S2: tuning in to this radio broadcast thinking that I'm going 629 00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:10,330 S2: to resolve the tension around the Canaanite conquest for you 630 00:35:10,890 --> 00:35:14,730 S2: during this interview. Then you are gravely misled. But I 631 00:35:14,730 --> 00:35:18,810 S2: think there are very good answers to those questions, and 632 00:35:18,810 --> 00:35:22,049 S2: they do point to the goodness of God. And they 633 00:35:22,050 --> 00:35:26,130 S2: also do not dismiss or take lightly people's concerns. 634 00:35:26,489 --> 00:35:29,770 S1: Which takes us back to, okay, I want to know 635 00:35:29,770 --> 00:35:33,529 S1: what Charles Spurgeon said about this, or D.L. Moody said 636 00:35:33,530 --> 00:35:36,969 S1: about this, or I have Doctor Michael Rudnick and Doctor 637 00:35:36,969 --> 00:35:39,649 S1: Michael Van Landingham. I call them the two Michaels. And 638 00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:42,489 S1: they came along, come along, and they answer Bible questions, 639 00:35:42,489 --> 00:35:44,890 S1: and most of the time they agree with each other. 640 00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:47,810 S1: And so you could just say, oh, well, uh, what 641 00:35:47,810 --> 00:35:50,690 S1: are the two Michaels think about the Canaanite conquest? I 642 00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:52,850 S1: want to hear oh, yeah, well, that's what I believe, too. 643 00:35:52,969 --> 00:35:56,049 S1: And then you become a passive learner. What really gets 644 00:35:56,050 --> 00:35:58,730 S1: interesting is when the Michaels will say something and they 645 00:35:58,730 --> 00:36:01,090 S1: disagree with each other about I, you know, kind of 646 00:36:01,130 --> 00:36:04,009 S1: have this, so you don't have one. Well, I agree 647 00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:06,969 S1: with that. Michael, you could do that or I'll get 648 00:36:07,070 --> 00:36:10,350 S1: these responses from people after the program and they'll say, 649 00:36:10,350 --> 00:36:13,109 S1: I think they're all wet about this, because this over 650 00:36:13,110 --> 00:36:17,030 S1: here and it's uh, I think a lot of people 651 00:36:17,070 --> 00:36:20,029 S1: believe if we're if we have the same Holy Spirit, 652 00:36:20,030 --> 00:36:22,750 S1: we have the same Bible, we have to agree about 653 00:36:22,750 --> 00:36:27,270 S1: everything that's in here, about every, you know, theological, uh, 654 00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:30,830 S1: very small thing to very big thing. Now, I do 655 00:36:30,830 --> 00:36:34,550 S1: think you, you know, we need to agree on the, 656 00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:37,950 S1: the elemental things of the faith, but there are there 657 00:36:37,989 --> 00:36:40,430 S1: are some things in Joshua that you and I might 658 00:36:40,430 --> 00:36:44,469 S1: not agree about. Uh, the sun standing still. I want 659 00:36:44,510 --> 00:36:48,590 S1: to find out even who wrote Joshua. That's a big question, 660 00:36:48,590 --> 00:36:49,230 S1: isn't it? 661 00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:53,270 S2: Chris, you've just asked one of my favorite questions, because 662 00:36:54,630 --> 00:36:57,630 S2: I think people think when I talk about Bible literacy, 663 00:36:57,630 --> 00:37:00,230 S2: that if we all just knew our Bibles firsthand, we 664 00:37:00,230 --> 00:37:03,470 S2: would all agree. And I don't believe that. I think 665 00:37:03,469 --> 00:37:05,430 S2: that history would show us that that is not going 666 00:37:05,430 --> 00:37:07,940 S2: to be the case this side of heaven. I think 667 00:37:07,940 --> 00:37:10,779 S2: we would have a lot more unity around essentials. I 668 00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:14,420 S2: think we would understand more clearly what essentials are the 669 00:37:14,420 --> 00:37:17,700 S2: essentials that have been agreed upon by the historic church. 670 00:37:18,180 --> 00:37:21,660 S2: And I think that we would hold non-essentials with a 671 00:37:21,660 --> 00:37:25,020 S2: lot more graciousness than we currently do. I think one 672 00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:27,780 S2: of the reasons it's so easy to divide Christians against 673 00:37:27,780 --> 00:37:31,180 S2: each other right now is because people have not grappled 674 00:37:31,180 --> 00:37:34,700 S2: with these issues in the Bible on their own before 675 00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:37,860 S2: they have a conversation with someone else, or hear someone 676 00:37:37,860 --> 00:37:40,739 S2: teach about it. So all of your favorite commentators that 677 00:37:40,739 --> 00:37:43,779 S2: you just mentioned, they have their role to play in 678 00:37:43,780 --> 00:37:46,460 S2: the learning process. It's just that it is a role 679 00:37:46,460 --> 00:37:51,540 S2: they should play. After we have earnestly and honestly spent 680 00:37:51,540 --> 00:37:55,100 S2: time in the text on our own and then with others, 681 00:37:55,100 --> 00:38:00,140 S2: and we feel the full extent of our confusion, um, 682 00:38:00,340 --> 00:38:05,810 S2: of our desire to have clarity. And then when we 683 00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:09,690 S2: do encounter conflicting opinions, I always like to remind people 684 00:38:09,690 --> 00:38:11,690 S2: that you will not stand before the Lord and give 685 00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:15,009 S2: an account for how well D.L. Moody loved God with 686 00:38:15,010 --> 00:38:19,050 S2: his mind. And so you want to say, oh, well, 687 00:38:19,250 --> 00:38:22,370 S2: this commentator actually gets a lot closer to my reading 688 00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:24,290 S2: of the text or the one that we've talked about 689 00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:27,049 S2: in the group, with the understanding you might come back 690 00:38:27,050 --> 00:38:29,890 S2: to it 20 years later. And if it's a nonessential 691 00:38:29,890 --> 00:38:33,129 S2: of the Christian faith, you might read it differently than 692 00:38:33,130 --> 00:38:33,730 S2: you did. 693 00:38:34,130 --> 00:38:37,370 S1: Yes you might. And isn't that interesting? The further you 694 00:38:37,370 --> 00:38:40,210 S1: get into that study, and the more the less passive 695 00:38:40,210 --> 00:38:42,730 S1: and the more active you become. As you look back, 696 00:38:42,770 --> 00:38:44,570 S1: I'll look at some of my notes. It's like, no, 697 00:38:44,730 --> 00:38:47,649 S1: I don't think that's on point there. I understand why 698 00:38:47,650 --> 00:38:50,890 S1: I believe that. Then, you know. Um, so all right, 699 00:38:50,930 --> 00:38:53,089 S1: we I want to talk about a little bit more 700 00:38:53,090 --> 00:38:57,330 S1: about Joshua. Every good promise fulfilled. Jen Wilkin is with us. 701 00:38:57,330 --> 00:39:01,410 S1: Our featured resource is that study. I hope you're excited 702 00:39:01,410 --> 00:39:03,959 S1: about what we're talking about here today because we're talking 703 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,480 S1: about what doesn't change, which is God's word, and studying 704 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:12,600 S1: that for yourself. Just go to Chris for more straight 705 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:26,120 S1: ahead on Moody Radio. Our remaining moments with Jen Wilkin, 706 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,600 S1: who is the author of the new study Joshua. Every 707 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:34,560 S1: Good Promise fulfilled a featured resource. You find the the journal, 708 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,719 S1: the study, the video series. If you want to lead 709 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,920 S1: this in your home or your church or wherever. Just 710 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:46,760 S1: go to Chris. Had a caller who didn't. Hang on. 711 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,480 S1: But the question is, at what point do we take 712 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,440 S1: the Bible to be literally true? Mhm. And the first 713 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,360 S1: thing that I thought about was the day the sun 714 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:02,780 S1: stood still in Joshua chapter ten. And there is a 715 00:40:02,820 --> 00:40:07,540 S1: it is in a poetic form in, in my, uh, version, 716 00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:11,100 S1: sun stand still over Gibeon and moon over the valley 717 00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:14,419 S1: of Aijalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon 718 00:40:14,420 --> 00:40:18,620 S1: stopped until the nation took vengeance on its enemies. So, 719 00:40:19,020 --> 00:40:22,060 S1: two part question. What do you think about that? Tell us, 720 00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:24,620 S1: tell us how to how to figure that out and 721 00:40:24,620 --> 00:40:27,620 S1: how to talk to, uh, to those who are scientific 722 00:40:27,620 --> 00:40:29,819 S1: who said if that actually happened, then we would see 723 00:40:29,820 --> 00:40:33,020 S1: this in the, you know, strata and whatever. Right. Um, 724 00:40:33,260 --> 00:40:35,660 S1: and then just the when, when do we know to 725 00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:37,100 S1: take this literally. True. 726 00:40:37,140 --> 00:40:39,980 S2: Mhm. This is such an important question. It's such a 727 00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:44,460 S2: good Bible literacy forming question. I like to remind learners 728 00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:48,260 S2: that our goal is not to read the Bible literally, literally. 729 00:40:48,300 --> 00:40:51,660 S2: It is to read it literally. Um, and so that 730 00:40:51,660 --> 00:40:55,500 S2: means that we read it according to its genre rules. 731 00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:57,379 S2: So we don't read the Psalms the same way that 732 00:40:57,380 --> 00:40:59,420 S2: we read the Proverbs. And we don't read the Proverbs 733 00:40:59,420 --> 00:41:02,049 S2: the same way that we read the history books or 734 00:41:02,050 --> 00:41:05,050 S2: the law books. We understand that there are different rules 735 00:41:05,050 --> 00:41:08,969 S2: for different genres. If you ever studied haiku poetry, the 736 00:41:08,969 --> 00:41:11,290 S2: first time you read a haiku poem, you're like, ah, 737 00:41:11,290 --> 00:41:13,890 S2: it doesn't really do much for me because it doesn't rhyme. 738 00:41:13,890 --> 00:41:16,850 S2: It doesn't obey any of the rules of the typical 739 00:41:16,850 --> 00:41:20,969 S2: poetry in Western, um, forms. But once you learn that 740 00:41:20,969 --> 00:41:25,009 S2: it's abiding by very strict rules and it's a sophisticated 741 00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:27,450 S2: form of poetry, your appreciation for it grows and you 742 00:41:27,450 --> 00:41:30,330 S2: read it properly. The same is true of the Bible. 743 00:41:30,530 --> 00:41:33,730 S2: So when we look at the book of Joshua, it 744 00:41:33,730 --> 00:41:37,530 S2: is historical narrative. So we should lean toward a more 745 00:41:37,530 --> 00:41:42,290 S2: literal interpretation because it's a it's a historical retelling. But 746 00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:45,410 S2: we know that the way that ancient Near Eastern histories 747 00:41:45,410 --> 00:41:48,250 S2: are written is with poetic elements in them. And so 748 00:41:48,290 --> 00:41:51,569 S2: things like the sun standing still, you are welcome to 749 00:41:51,610 --> 00:41:54,890 S2: take it literally. Um, but you don't have to take 750 00:41:54,890 --> 00:41:58,090 S2: it literally. That would be something that Christians have disagreed 751 00:41:58,090 --> 00:42:02,040 S2: on for many years, but the assumption that the bare 752 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,160 S2: minimum assumption that we all must agree on is that 753 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,839 S2: what is being communicated is a miraculous deliverance during that 754 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,360 S2: battle that God intervenes miraculously. Whether the way it's described 755 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,040 S2: is poetic or literal, kind of doesn't matter once you're 756 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,399 S2: able to acknowledge that. Um, but to some people, I 757 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,600 S2: acknowledge it does matter very much. Um, but I would 758 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,120 S2: argue that what we're all striving for is to take 759 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,360 S2: away it is to ask and answer the questions that 760 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,480 S2: that the author wants us to ask and answer. And 761 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,600 S2: the author is not concerned with us asking a scientific 762 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,839 S2: question so much as he's concerned with us asking, how 763 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,680 S2: did God intervene to deliver his children? 764 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,080 S1: So in the poetic form, there's twice it says, sun 765 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,080 S1: stand still. So the sun stopped. And then after that is, uh, 766 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,200 S1: the text that says there has been no day like 767 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,680 S1: it before or since, when the Lord listened to a 768 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,550 S1: man because the Lord fought for Israel. And so again, 769 00:43:00,590 --> 00:43:04,150 S1: I agree with you. The point here is God intervened. 770 00:43:04,190 --> 00:43:07,310 S1: God it was. It was not them doing a great 771 00:43:07,310 --> 00:43:12,590 S1: job with the battle. It was God intervening for them. 772 00:43:12,590 --> 00:43:16,670 S1: So back up to the whole book, Joshua. And you've 773 00:43:16,670 --> 00:43:21,069 S1: done studies from Genesis to Revelation and a lot in between. 774 00:43:21,070 --> 00:43:23,790 S1: Why do we need the book of Joshua to understand 775 00:43:23,790 --> 00:43:25,030 S1: the Bible as a whole? 776 00:43:25,830 --> 00:43:29,109 S2: Well, the Bible is doing a thing called recapitulation. It 777 00:43:29,150 --> 00:43:32,550 S2: repeats the same ideas and themes over and over again, 778 00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:36,830 S2: and it often does so according to pretty tightly recognizable patterns. 779 00:43:36,989 --> 00:43:39,590 S2: And that's why we're able to ask with any particular 780 00:43:39,590 --> 00:43:42,590 S2: book of the Bible, how is this pointing toward the 781 00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:46,630 S2: work of Christ, particularly the Old Testament books? With Joshua? 782 00:43:46,670 --> 00:43:51,710 S2: The connection's pretty easy to spot because his name is Yeshua. So, 783 00:43:51,790 --> 00:43:54,310 S2: I mean, you know, it's he's he's very tightly tied 784 00:43:54,310 --> 00:43:58,540 S2: to Christ. But what aspect of Christ's ministry? Well, Joshua 785 00:43:58,540 --> 00:44:01,620 S2: is essentially a warrior king, and when we go to 786 00:44:01,660 --> 00:44:05,780 S2: the book of Revelation, we see a warrior king, uh, 787 00:44:06,060 --> 00:44:09,379 S2: body of Christ in his second coming. And what is 788 00:44:09,380 --> 00:44:12,620 S2: Joshua doing? He's leading the children of Israel into their 789 00:44:12,620 --> 00:44:16,060 S2: promised inheritance. What is Christ doing at the Second Coming? 790 00:44:16,060 --> 00:44:18,740 S2: He is leading the children of God into their full 791 00:44:18,739 --> 00:44:21,980 S2: and final inheritance. So when we want to understand and 792 00:44:21,980 --> 00:44:24,779 S2: remember the stories of the Bible and see how they 793 00:44:24,780 --> 00:44:28,419 S2: fit together, we need these earlier stories to help us 794 00:44:28,420 --> 00:44:32,859 S2: interpret and understand the depth of fulfillment in later stories. 795 00:44:33,580 --> 00:44:38,180 S1: I love fear not be. Have. Have courage. Take courage. 796 00:44:38,219 --> 00:44:40,580 S1: You know God is. God is with you. He's. He's 797 00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:44,740 S1: walking alongside of you. Joshua. I like that. I also 798 00:44:44,739 --> 00:44:48,140 S1: like the stones of Remembrance. You know, put these stones 799 00:44:48,140 --> 00:44:51,620 S1: together here. I raise my Ebenezer. That's where that comes 800 00:44:51,620 --> 00:44:53,580 S1: from in the. Although they've taken it out of that 801 00:44:53,580 --> 00:44:56,880 S1: him in and in some hymnals. But we need to 802 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,719 S1: remember what God has done and to then not just 803 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,440 S1: remembered ourselves, but pass it along to the next generation. Right? 804 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,640 S2: Exactly. It's that good deposit that we carry forward. 805 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,640 S1: Janet can't thank you enough for coming alongside us, challenging us, 806 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,840 S1: that whole thing of dissonance as you read the Bible. 807 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,160 S1: I think a lot of people come to it and 808 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,239 S1: they'll say, I don't. I don't understand it. Or even 809 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,400 S1: in the Psalms, it's like, this doesn't seem like it 810 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,719 S1: ought to be. It ought to be in the Bible. 811 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,880 S1: And when you get that feeling, it's like there's something there. 812 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,600 S1: Listen to that. Walk through it and don't be passive, 813 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,520 S1: but be active and ask good questions and get into it. 814 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,600 S1: Dig into it and study. And you've helped with all 815 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,440 S1: of your studies, but especially this one with Joshua. I 816 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,560 S1: think a lot of people are going to be helped. 817 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,360 S1: And thanks for coming alongside us today at the Back Fence. 818 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,790 S2: Thank you so much for having me on Dan Wilkin. 819 00:45:53,790 --> 00:45:57,190 S1: You can find out more about her and that new study. Joshua. 820 00:45:57,230 --> 00:46:03,510 S1: Every good promise fulfilled at the website. Of course, there's 821 00:46:03,550 --> 00:46:07,270 S1: the actual study. There's the the leader's guide, there's the journal, 822 00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:11,630 S1: there's the video series. So basically everything that you need 823 00:46:11,630 --> 00:46:15,069 S1: in order to facilitate and ask really good questions of 824 00:46:15,070 --> 00:46:19,029 S1: the people who who are your leading or who if 825 00:46:19,070 --> 00:46:21,989 S1: you just want to go through it yourself personally, that's 826 00:46:21,989 --> 00:46:26,589 S1: a good thing as well. Let's go to Chris and 827 00:46:26,590 --> 00:46:30,950 S1: you'll see Joshua every good promise fulfilled. I got a 828 00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:34,510 S1: conversation for you tomorrow. Our good friend, Doctor Kelly Flanagan 829 00:46:34,510 --> 00:46:37,710 S1: is coming alongside us. He wants us to go on 830 00:46:37,710 --> 00:46:41,030 S1: the road. Less triggered. You'll find out what that means 831 00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:44,149 S1: right here on Chris Fabry Live, a production of Moody Radio, 832 00:46:44,190 --> 00:46:46,670 S1: a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.