1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,160 S1: Are you ready to take the exit? Not the exit 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,960 S1: on the interstate, but the technology exit to help your children. 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,560 S1: Today at the radio backyard fence, we go back to 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,160 S1: August of this year for a conversation that might be 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,120 S1: a game changer for you and your family in the 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,000 S1: New Year. On the day before we aired what you're 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,040 S1: about to hear, we had talked with Doctor Rosalee De rosette, 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,960 S1: and we had a number of areas where technology has 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,040 S1: affected us, including the church. So on this edition of 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,960 S1: the program, Claire Morrell presents a practical guide to freeing 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:46,200 S1: your children from smartphones. Her definition of a tech exit 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,840 S1: is this no smartphones, no social media, no tablets or 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:56,080 S1: video games during childhood. Is that too drastic? You'll hear 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,350 S1: why Claire has decided it's not too drastic for her family, 15 00:01:00,710 --> 00:01:03,230 S1: and you'll hear how she came to that conclusion straight 16 00:01:03,230 --> 00:01:06,230 S1: ahead on Chris Fabry live the program from the heart 17 00:01:06,230 --> 00:01:09,270 S1: to the heart for the heart, available on the app 18 00:01:09,270 --> 00:01:12,950 S1: and the on your smartphone or the old fashioned way, 19 00:01:12,990 --> 00:01:16,310 S1: straight to your radio. Let's get started. First, thanking our 20 00:01:16,310 --> 00:01:19,229 S1: team Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical. Trish is our 21 00:01:19,230 --> 00:01:22,590 S1: producer and that's it. Nobody to answer the phones today 22 00:01:22,590 --> 00:01:26,670 S1: because we are recorded and will present best of programs 23 00:01:26,670 --> 00:01:30,030 S1: all this week. So if you hear dated information today, 24 00:01:30,069 --> 00:01:32,949 S1: a phone number, there's a reason for that. We aired 25 00:01:32,950 --> 00:01:36,550 S1: this back in August, so don't call us today. Now, 26 00:01:36,550 --> 00:01:38,670 S1: the reason we are enabled to come to you each 27 00:01:38,670 --> 00:01:42,390 S1: day at this time, live or delayed or on the podcast, 28 00:01:42,390 --> 00:01:45,030 S1: is because there are people who support us with a 29 00:01:45,069 --> 00:01:47,670 S1: gift and I get to choose our thank you. Each 30 00:01:47,670 --> 00:01:51,590 S1: month and all through December, we have been joyfully giving 31 00:01:51,590 --> 00:01:56,550 S1: the hardcover gorgeous book Hosanna in Excelsis by David and 32 00:01:56,550 --> 00:02:00,060 S1: Barbara Lehman. 43 Hymns and Carols of Christmas and the 33 00:02:00,060 --> 00:02:04,100 S1: stories behind them. You say Christmas is over, Chris. Hey. 34 00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:06,220 S1: I know, but this is a book you can read 35 00:02:06,220 --> 00:02:08,860 S1: all year round. Or maybe pack it away with the 36 00:02:08,860 --> 00:02:11,580 S1: ornaments and the lights and get it out next year. 37 00:02:11,580 --> 00:02:14,220 S1: It is a legacy gift and I want you to 38 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:16,340 S1: have a copy. Here's how to get one. Give a 39 00:02:16,340 --> 00:02:20,140 S1: year end gift today. Don't wait. Call or click through 40 00:02:20,139 --> 00:02:25,140 S1: and give a generous year end gift at Chris. Chris. 41 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:36,460 S1: Or call us at 866958669532279. And thank you for your 42 00:02:36,460 --> 00:02:41,139 S1: support of the radio backyard fence. Since I heard about 43 00:02:41,139 --> 00:02:44,340 S1: Claire's book, I had been looking forward to this conversation. 44 00:02:44,540 --> 00:02:48,139 S1: The title is The Tech Exit A Practical Guide to 45 00:02:48,180 --> 00:02:52,820 S1: Freeing Kids and Teens from smartphones. Featured resource. Also at 46 00:02:52,820 --> 00:02:56,580 S1: the website, Claire Morrell is director of the Technology and 47 00:02:56,580 --> 00:02:59,880 S1: Human Flourishing project. She's a fellow at the Ethics and 48 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,040 S1: Public Policy Center. Prior to that, she worked in the 49 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,560 S1: white House Counsel's office and the Department of Justice. She 50 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:13,560 S1: consults legislators, know legislators on technology policy, and has helped 51 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,280 S1: craft and draft legislation to protect children online. She and 52 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,360 S1: her husband have three children. They live right in the 53 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,320 S1: heart of Washington, D.C.. Claire, welcome to the program. How 54 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:25,160 S1: are you doing today? 55 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,480 S2: I'm good. Chris, thanks so much for having me. 56 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,520 S1: Yesterday we talked with a professor at Moody, Doctor Rosalee 57 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,760 S1: De Rose, about sacred spaces and how we've kind of 58 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,920 S1: lost them. Screams have invaded everything. Our churches. You need 59 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,480 S1: a smartphone to check your kids into the children's area. 60 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,280 S1: We have devices rather than Bibles. We sing from a screen. 61 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,840 S1: And there are a lot of advantages, a lot of 62 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,960 S1: positives to all of that. But there's also a lot 63 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,800 S1: of cost to it that I think that we are 64 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,350 S1: just now beginning to see. So let me that's that's 65 00:03:59,350 --> 00:04:02,710 S1: the precursor. That's what we talked about yesterday. You are 66 00:04:02,710 --> 00:04:06,270 S1: looking at our children and what is going on with 67 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:09,710 S1: them with teenagers on down. So let's just start right there. 68 00:04:09,750 --> 00:04:13,470 S1: Why did you see this as something that you wanted 69 00:04:13,470 --> 00:04:14,990 S1: to raise a red flag over? 70 00:04:16,110 --> 00:04:19,349 S2: Yeah, so many reasons. And I think, like you were mentioning, 71 00:04:19,390 --> 00:04:23,630 S2: the kind of invasion of our sacred spaces with technology. Similarly, 72 00:04:23,630 --> 00:04:27,190 S2: we have seen the family, um, a very sacred space 73 00:04:27,190 --> 00:04:31,910 S2: of sacred relationships between parent and child, increasingly, um, invaded, 74 00:04:31,910 --> 00:04:35,270 S2: infiltrated by the smartphone and social media. And we see 75 00:04:35,270 --> 00:04:39,029 S2: these devices and technologies really coming between parent and child. 76 00:04:39,029 --> 00:04:42,950 S2: And so I just try to explain in my book that, um, really, 77 00:04:42,950 --> 00:04:46,710 S2: what parents have to understand is the technology is not neutral. 78 00:04:46,870 --> 00:04:50,670 S2: It is addictive by design. And I try to explain 79 00:04:50,670 --> 00:04:54,390 S2: then why the strategies that most parents have been employing 80 00:04:54,540 --> 00:04:58,580 S2: of screen time limits and parental controls are not sufficient 81 00:04:58,580 --> 00:05:01,460 S2: for protecting our children from all of the harms associated 82 00:05:01,460 --> 00:05:05,220 S2: with these devices, that it's not just about the content 83 00:05:05,260 --> 00:05:07,860 S2: on the screen and trying to control what content they're 84 00:05:07,860 --> 00:05:10,580 S2: coming across. So that is a real danger as well, 85 00:05:10,779 --> 00:05:15,300 S2: but that the design itself is inherently addictive, that the 86 00:05:15,339 --> 00:05:19,860 S2: more I dug into the brain research, the neuroscience that 87 00:05:20,060 --> 00:05:23,700 S2: children's brains, their development is being stunted by the use 88 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:27,020 S2: of these technologies, and that it really elicits a similar 89 00:05:27,020 --> 00:05:31,740 S2: response in the brain to other highly addictive drugs, that 90 00:05:31,740 --> 00:05:34,779 S2: the impact on the brain is like an addictive drug, 91 00:05:34,779 --> 00:05:37,979 S2: and that we've had a metaphor problem as a culture 92 00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:42,099 S2: of treating smartphones and social media and other tablets more 93 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:45,260 S2: like sugar, something that can be enjoyed in moderation but 94 00:05:45,260 --> 00:05:49,100 S2: shouldn't be consumed too much when it's actually much more 95 00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:53,610 S2: like digital fentanyl that even a short amount of time 96 00:05:53,610 --> 00:05:58,690 S2: on these devices can create just incredible craving and compulsive behavior, 97 00:05:58,730 --> 00:06:02,089 S2: always wanting more. The time limit is never enough. Um, 98 00:06:02,089 --> 00:06:04,570 S2: and so we just we have to be aware that 99 00:06:04,570 --> 00:06:08,170 S2: the strategies that we've really been sold as parents, uh, 100 00:06:08,170 --> 00:06:11,210 S2: by the technology companies that, you know, your children can 101 00:06:11,210 --> 00:06:14,089 S2: use our products, just put time limits and parental controls 102 00:06:14,089 --> 00:06:18,089 S2: in place are not adequate for protecting our children sufficiently 103 00:06:18,089 --> 00:06:23,010 S2: from the harms, and especially for Christian parents, understanding that 104 00:06:23,050 --> 00:06:27,170 S2: the medium is the message, um, that the screen itself, 105 00:06:27,210 --> 00:06:30,970 S2: this kind of individualized screen in a child's hand of 106 00:06:30,970 --> 00:06:35,450 S2: the smartphone or tablet, communicates to them that the world 107 00:06:35,450 --> 00:06:38,370 S2: revolves around them and that life is really about their 108 00:06:38,370 --> 00:06:42,730 S2: entertainment and amusement. Um, the screen teaches them that the 109 00:06:42,730 --> 00:06:46,610 S2: purpose of life is really just their own pleasure and entertainment, 110 00:06:46,610 --> 00:06:49,730 S2: and it is endless. Uh, the scroll is infinite and 111 00:06:49,730 --> 00:06:53,390 S2: there is always more content. And so instead, just recognizing, 112 00:06:53,430 --> 00:06:55,750 S2: as Christian parents, we want our children to know and 113 00:06:55,750 --> 00:06:58,349 S2: love God and to know and love others, especially in 114 00:06:58,350 --> 00:07:03,430 S2: our families. And that screens then really come, um, between 115 00:07:03,630 --> 00:07:07,029 S2: those purposes and that they're undermining what parents want for 116 00:07:07,029 --> 00:07:09,590 S2: our kids. And so we have to realize, regardless of 117 00:07:09,590 --> 00:07:13,670 S2: the content, um, the medium of the technology itself is 118 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:17,270 S2: inherently self-focused and really caves a child in on him 119 00:07:17,270 --> 00:07:18,030 S2: or herself. 120 00:07:18,150 --> 00:07:20,950 S1: Um, there's a lot to unpack in there. That's like 121 00:07:20,950 --> 00:07:25,030 S1: a fire hydrant right there of information. And it's really, 122 00:07:25,030 --> 00:07:28,510 S1: really good. Claire, morale is with us today. The tech 123 00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:33,630 S1: exit is our featured resource at Chris Fabry Lives. And 124 00:07:33,670 --> 00:07:36,870 S1: I want you to talk about one thing, uh, that 125 00:07:37,710 --> 00:07:41,950 S1: the app that is out there. Uh cocomelon. I think 126 00:07:41,990 --> 00:07:45,630 S1: it's called, um, because I saw you talking about this, 127 00:07:45,630 --> 00:07:49,030 S1: and when I, I saw the design of it, I thought, 128 00:07:49,270 --> 00:07:53,020 S1: this is exactly why this is so important to talk about. 129 00:07:53,020 --> 00:07:56,180 S1: So if you go to Chris, you will see the 130 00:07:56,180 --> 00:08:01,940 S1: book right there. Tech exit, go to Chris Faber. And 131 00:08:01,940 --> 00:08:04,900 S1: if this is sparking something in your soul touching a nerve, 132 00:08:04,940 --> 00:08:07,380 S1: don't you dare go away. There's more with Claire straight 133 00:08:07,380 --> 00:08:19,140 S1: ahead on Moody Radio. Claire Morrell is with us at 134 00:08:19,140 --> 00:08:21,340 S1: the back fence today. She's the author of The Tech 135 00:08:21,340 --> 00:08:26,460 S1: Exit A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones. 136 00:08:26,980 --> 00:08:29,380 S1: I had that written down what she just referred to 137 00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:34,780 S1: digital fentanyl, because who would say for anybody, but especially 138 00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:37,860 S1: their children, all a little bit. Okay. You know, take it, 139 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:40,300 S1: take a little bit. It's like, no, we wouldn't say that. 140 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:44,820 S1: But if what we're talking about is designed to do 141 00:08:44,820 --> 00:08:47,660 S1: something to our kids, to to hook them and to 142 00:08:47,700 --> 00:08:51,170 S1: keep them hooked, Then what we were talking about yesterday 143 00:08:51,170 --> 00:08:55,130 S1: is right. We are becoming automatons. We are just becoming 144 00:08:55,130 --> 00:08:58,410 S1: the walking dead. We're not seeing any. We're. We're looking 145 00:08:58,410 --> 00:09:02,170 S1: at things monochromatically. We're not seeing color anymore because we're 146 00:09:02,170 --> 00:09:06,329 S1: so tied to these things. So if that's true, then 147 00:09:06,330 --> 00:09:10,610 S1: there must be evidence of that. And that's one you 148 00:09:10,650 --> 00:09:13,650 S1: wrote or talked about cocomelon, which I've never heard of 149 00:09:13,690 --> 00:09:16,530 S1: because I don't have kids that age. I thought, this 150 00:09:16,530 --> 00:09:20,330 S1: is exactly what we need to talk about. What is cocomelon? 151 00:09:20,330 --> 00:09:21,650 S1: Why is it important? 152 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:24,650 S2: Yeah, no, I think it's an important example because I 153 00:09:24,650 --> 00:09:27,570 S2: think sometimes, you know, parents hear about social media and 154 00:09:27,570 --> 00:09:30,610 S2: they think, okay, that's just a problem for teenagers. But 155 00:09:30,610 --> 00:09:34,530 S2: this is increasingly creeping down to younger and younger ages. 156 00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:38,410 S2: So Cocomelon is advertised as a children's show. It's available 157 00:09:38,410 --> 00:09:41,690 S2: on Netflix and other video streaming platforms, and it looks 158 00:09:41,690 --> 00:09:45,850 S2: like it's just nursery rhymes and songs for kids. But 159 00:09:45,850 --> 00:09:49,000 S2: as a New York Times article exposed a few years ago. 160 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,640 S2: The designers behind that show really want to addict children 161 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,480 S2: to their program because in order to design the episodes, 162 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,040 S2: they have children come in who are kind of their 163 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,320 S2: test subjects, and they have one screen playing the Cocomelon episode, 164 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,600 S2: and next to it they have something they call the 165 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,719 S2: real life patron, which shows scenes of real life a 166 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,000 S2: dad washing dishes, a mom vacuuming the house. You know, 167 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,120 S2: things that a child would be observing in their home 168 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,880 S2: around them while watching an episode. And any time one 169 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,240 S2: of the subjects watching the episode turned to look from 170 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,000 S2: Cocomelon to the real life patron, finding the real life 171 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,720 S2: world scenario more interesting than the episode, the producers would 172 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,840 S2: write that down. Note where that was in the episode, 173 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,400 S2: and then go back in and add more bright colors 174 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,640 S2: and more flashing kind of images and more music and sounds, 175 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,959 S2: and increase the volume or the speed of that particular 176 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,980 S2: segment to make it more enticing to a young child 177 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:50,420 S2: and to their developing brain. And so these shows and 178 00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:53,380 S2: these technologies are just are not neutral. They truly are 179 00:10:53,380 --> 00:10:57,740 S2: trying to extract as much time and attention as possible 180 00:10:58,059 --> 00:11:01,620 S2: from our children, including at younger and younger ages, through 181 00:11:01,620 --> 00:11:05,340 S2: even a show advertised as a nursery rhyme show for kids, 182 00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:09,140 S2: it's still actually trying to addict them to their program. 183 00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:13,180 S1: So the goal is to for the developers. And I 184 00:11:13,179 --> 00:11:15,660 S1: think this is why Steve Jobs said, no, I'm not 185 00:11:15,660 --> 00:11:18,620 S1: going to give my kids, you know, this was years ago. 186 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:20,860 S1: My kids are not going to have these things. It's 187 00:11:20,860 --> 00:11:24,500 S1: to it's to hook the child, to keep the child 188 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:27,140 S1: as well as the adult. You know, let's be honest, 189 00:11:27,220 --> 00:11:30,980 S1: as long as you possibly can to keep them there 190 00:11:30,980 --> 00:11:33,420 S1: to monetize their viewing habits. 191 00:11:33,860 --> 00:11:37,860 S2: That's exactly right. And especially with social media and other apps, 192 00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:41,100 S2: you know, their business model is really advertising. So the 193 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:44,540 S2: service appears free to you, the user. You think, oh, 194 00:11:44,580 --> 00:11:47,610 S2: it doesn't cost me anything to open a social media account. 195 00:11:47,610 --> 00:11:50,130 S2: But you are paying. You are paying with your time 196 00:11:50,130 --> 00:11:53,010 S2: and your attention and your data, all of which they 197 00:11:53,010 --> 00:11:57,490 S2: then sell to advertisers. And so their profit directly depends 198 00:11:57,490 --> 00:12:00,090 S2: on how much people are on their platform and how 199 00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:03,250 S2: much they're using it. And they view children as really 200 00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:06,290 S2: the future for their business model. The younger they can 201 00:12:06,330 --> 00:12:09,330 S2: hook someone to their products, the longer they can profit 202 00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:11,490 S2: off of them over the course of their lifetime. And 203 00:12:11,490 --> 00:12:14,290 S2: so it's it's a race to the bottom for our 204 00:12:14,290 --> 00:12:16,729 S2: children's attention by these tech companies. 205 00:12:17,170 --> 00:12:22,490 S1: Rosie was telling us yesterday and in previous conversations about her, uh, 206 00:12:22,690 --> 00:12:25,809 S1: students at Moody Bible Institute and how this is one 207 00:12:25,809 --> 00:12:28,010 S1: of the things that she has them do. It's I 208 00:12:28,010 --> 00:12:32,210 S1: believe it's a one week fast, total detox. No music, 209 00:12:32,210 --> 00:12:35,730 S1: no no digital devices, nothing. You got to take it 210 00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:39,250 S1: out and how hard it is and how difficult it is, 211 00:12:39,610 --> 00:12:43,610 S1: but how short people's attention spans. How short young people's 212 00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:48,160 S1: attention spans are these days, and I wonder if you 213 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,640 S1: could just rattle off a few things that you see 214 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,559 S1: in the culture with children, what is happening to younger 215 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,559 S1: people as they get hooked to these devices that you 216 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,200 S1: see that you say, time out, we need to we 217 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:03,360 S1: need to change here. 218 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,960 S2: Yeah, there are so many. I mean, as you just mentioned, 219 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,640 S2: the attention spans are really diminishing. Um, children's ability to focus, 220 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,560 S2: to regulate their emotions, to develop self control. All of 221 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,000 S2: that is being underdeveloped. And it's for a very clear 222 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,120 S2: reason in the neuroscience, which is the prefrontal cortex, which 223 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,920 S2: is the part of our brain responsible for memory, critical 224 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:32,240 S2: problem solving, our personality development, self control, emotional regulation is 225 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,000 S2: all being underutilized when we're using screens. Instead, a different 226 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,719 S2: part of the brain are called our limbic system, which 227 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,040 S2: is kind of where the reward center of the brain is, 228 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,910 S2: is being overstimulated by these technologies, because every time we 229 00:13:44,910 --> 00:13:46,910 S2: watch a new video or we get a new like 230 00:13:46,910 --> 00:13:50,030 S2: or a new follower, it releases this big surge of 231 00:13:50,070 --> 00:13:53,790 S2: dopamine in the brain at an artificially high level than 232 00:13:53,790 --> 00:13:57,350 S2: we're used to from real world pleasures, and that that 233 00:13:57,390 --> 00:14:00,630 S2: hit of dopamine then plunges your brain into after that, 234 00:14:00,630 --> 00:14:03,309 S2: a deficit in order to incentivize you to do that 235 00:14:03,309 --> 00:14:06,150 S2: behavior again. And so the limbic part of the brain 236 00:14:06,150 --> 00:14:09,830 S2: really takes over. And so children then are incentivized to 237 00:14:09,870 --> 00:14:12,990 S2: keep chasing more and more of these dopamine highs in 238 00:14:12,990 --> 00:14:17,510 S2: the virtual world. And over time, the brain becomes desensitized 239 00:14:17,510 --> 00:14:20,190 S2: to pleasures in the real world. So they actually find 240 00:14:20,230 --> 00:14:24,030 S2: everyday activities boring and mundane, like reading a book or 241 00:14:24,030 --> 00:14:25,870 S2: riding a bike, or going for a walk with a 242 00:14:25,870 --> 00:14:29,390 S2: family member doesn't actually produce the pleasure response in the 243 00:14:29,390 --> 00:14:31,750 S2: brain that it's supposed to, because their brain has become 244 00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:35,950 S2: habituated to a very artificially high level. And that kind 245 00:14:35,950 --> 00:14:39,030 S2: of taking over of the limbic center of the brain 246 00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:41,930 S2: means that the prefrontal cortex, like I mentioned, which is 247 00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:45,210 S2: so important to so many aspects of a child's development, 248 00:14:45,210 --> 00:14:48,490 S2: is being underdeveloped. And so it is like a catch 249 00:14:48,490 --> 00:14:52,370 S2: 22 in the sense that the more children use these technologies, 250 00:14:52,370 --> 00:14:55,490 S2: the less able they are to handle them, because that 251 00:14:55,490 --> 00:14:58,930 S2: part of the brain that we need to exercise self-control 252 00:14:58,930 --> 00:15:02,450 S2: and impulse control and emotional regulation is really being stunted 253 00:15:02,450 --> 00:15:05,450 S2: by the use of technology. And so we see these 254 00:15:05,450 --> 00:15:10,490 S2: behaviors in kids like tantrums, poor focus, difficulty paying attention, 255 00:15:10,530 --> 00:15:14,090 S2: even like mimicking symptoms of ADHD and autism that are 256 00:15:14,090 --> 00:15:16,490 S2: actually really induced by the screens. 257 00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:19,170 S1: So if you go to a seeing this in restaurants, 258 00:15:19,170 --> 00:15:22,010 S1: you go to a restaurant, you have little children. It's 259 00:15:22,010 --> 00:15:25,010 S1: so much easier to give them a tablet. Actually, some 260 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:28,610 S1: restaurants have them. You know, we used to go to 261 00:15:28,650 --> 00:15:31,490 S1: one restaurant I remember in Colorado, and they had this 262 00:15:31,490 --> 00:15:34,050 S1: big thing of butcher paper, and then they just put 263 00:15:34,050 --> 00:15:37,970 S1: crayons out everybody. And I was I was cuddling more 264 00:15:37,970 --> 00:15:40,480 S1: than the kids were, you know, but now it's the 265 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,120 S1: it's the device. It's the tablet. And that dopamine hit 266 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,520 S1: that you're talking about the the device or the app 267 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,920 S1: is working the way that it was programmed to to 268 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,600 S1: get the attention of the child. So the child who 269 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,920 S1: plays video games and really enjoys that is not a 270 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:04,960 S1: bad child for enjoying that. It's it's working in their brain. Right? 271 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,080 S2: No, exactly. And that's what I try to explain to 272 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,720 S2: parents is like, this is the effect it was designed 273 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,080 S2: to have. And so it's, you know, it's not the 274 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,400 S2: child's fault. It's not even the parents fault. It is 275 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,600 S2: the tech company and their algorithms and their design and 276 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,960 S2: their notifications. Everything has been designed to elicit this response. 277 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,240 S2: And so we just as parents have to be aware 278 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,760 S2: of that, that the technology I think there's kind of 279 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,440 S2: this myth that the technology is neutral and it's all 280 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,720 S2: about how you use it, whether you use it for 281 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,000 S2: good or use it for bad. And I would just 282 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,760 S2: really poke a big hole in that to say the 283 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,640 S2: technology is actually not neutral. It is designed with a 284 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,590 S2: very specific end, which is to actually addict your child 285 00:16:42,590 --> 00:16:45,310 S2: to the product. It is. They want it to be 286 00:16:45,310 --> 00:16:48,870 S2: as enticing as possible. And the sad result of that is, 287 00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:51,350 S2: like I was saying, is it leads to these effects 288 00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:53,630 S2: that no parent would want. And it may be hard 289 00:16:53,630 --> 00:16:55,830 S2: to see those in the short term, like you hand 290 00:16:55,830 --> 00:16:58,950 S2: them a tablet and you don't see the effects that day, 291 00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:01,470 S2: but it's the cumulation of their time, of what it's 292 00:17:01,470 --> 00:17:04,550 S2: doing to their brain and the opportunity costs of then 293 00:17:04,550 --> 00:17:07,350 S2: what it's not doing. Like you mentioned, the creativity of 294 00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:11,750 S2: scribbling and coloring. It's all the things kids are not doing. Instead, 295 00:17:11,750 --> 00:17:14,510 S2: that is then under developing the other really important parts 296 00:17:14,510 --> 00:17:16,990 S2: of children's brains. And so I try to explain in 297 00:17:16,990 --> 00:17:19,150 S2: my book, like, I think the number one goal for 298 00:17:19,150 --> 00:17:22,109 S2: most parents is teaching our children self-control. They have to 299 00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:25,310 S2: learn how to control themselves and their behavior and their emotions. 300 00:17:25,470 --> 00:17:27,470 S2: And that is like the number one thing that is 301 00:17:27,470 --> 00:17:30,550 S2: undermined by screens. And these are just, you know, academic 302 00:17:30,550 --> 00:17:34,830 S2: researchers saying, we've noticed, done studies that where kids are 303 00:17:34,830 --> 00:17:37,189 S2: handed a tablet or given a screen to kind of 304 00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:42,180 S2: calm them down. They don't develop that self-control or emotional regulation. 305 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:44,460 S2: And so it's just it's a very dangerous it's an 306 00:17:44,460 --> 00:17:46,379 S2: easy thing in the short term to just want to 307 00:17:46,420 --> 00:17:49,420 S2: hand a child who's having a tantrum, a tablet and 308 00:17:49,420 --> 00:17:52,580 S2: calm them down. But it has significant long term effects 309 00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:54,540 S2: on that child's health and development. 310 00:17:54,859 --> 00:17:58,460 S1: That's Claire Morrell. The Tech Exit is our featured resource 311 00:17:58,460 --> 00:18:01,859 S1: at Chris Fabry Lives. If you have a question or 312 00:18:01,859 --> 00:18:05,140 S1: comment today we're going to get into what does the 313 00:18:05,140 --> 00:18:08,100 S1: tech exit? You know, the what is the detox look 314 00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:09,899 S1: like and how to go through that. It's one of 315 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:12,660 S1: the best parts of the book. Uh, but we're only 316 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:14,500 S1: going to be able to scratch the surface here today. 317 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:20,020 S1: If you have a question. (877) 548-3675. Here's a high school 318 00:18:20,020 --> 00:18:23,620 S1: teacher who left this comment. Uh, I have a daughter 319 00:18:23,619 --> 00:18:27,140 S1: in middle school. As teachers, they're told to take their phones. 320 00:18:27,619 --> 00:18:29,980 S1: He thinks that perhaps there should be a no phone 321 00:18:29,980 --> 00:18:33,139 S1: zone within the school. I assume this public school, but 322 00:18:33,140 --> 00:18:35,379 S1: it doesn't matter. It could be a Christian or a 323 00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:39,280 S1: different kind of school. How can lawmakers set the tone 324 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,479 S1: for not having phones at all? Should this be a 325 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,399 S1: national standard? Do you think it's a good idea? 326 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,479 S2: Yes, I this is something I've worked on and that 327 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,320 S2: I actually talk about directly in the book. That getting 328 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,040 S2: phones out of schools is, I think, a big step 329 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,440 S2: in the right direction and actually can help set that 330 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,320 S2: culture on a community and then state level, even a 331 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,280 S2: national level, just by protecting the school day completely from 332 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,080 S2: the influence of smartphones and social media, by taking the 333 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,440 S2: phones away is really powerful, because it solves for some 334 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,440 S2: of these negative network effects from the technologies, which is 335 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,640 S2: that the effects and harms are not just individual, but 336 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,879 S2: they affect the whole cohort of students. If even a 337 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,080 S2: few kids are on phones or social media, it changes 338 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,920 S2: the social dynamics and social environment for everyone. And so 339 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,200 S2: for those types of harms, we do need more collective solutions. 340 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,760 S2: Schools are really on the front lines in helping parents 341 00:19:34,910 --> 00:19:38,510 S2: provide those collective solutions. And wherever there have been phone 342 00:19:38,510 --> 00:19:41,710 S2: bans introduced, it has been just seen with just wild 343 00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:45,470 S2: success in terms of improvements in not just the learning 344 00:19:45,470 --> 00:19:49,430 S2: environment for kids, but the social environment as well. More engagement, 345 00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:53,750 S2: more social interaction. Less discipline issues. More respect for authority, 346 00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:56,669 S2: respect for the teachers. So I would just encourage parents, 347 00:19:56,670 --> 00:19:59,190 S2: if your school doesn't have this policy to to talk 348 00:19:59,190 --> 00:20:01,230 S2: to your school about it. A lot of these decisions 349 00:20:01,230 --> 00:20:03,710 S2: can be made at the school board level or even 350 00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:07,229 S2: by a principal of the school. And then even like 351 00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:10,389 S2: you were asking about lawmakers, some states, like the state 352 00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:14,230 S2: of Virginia, just statewide, said, you know, our K through 353 00:20:14,270 --> 00:20:17,149 S2: 12 schools will not have phones bell to bell during 354 00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:20,470 S2: the school day. And that is an incredibly powerful, collective 355 00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:24,350 S2: solution that helps really back every parent up by protecting 356 00:20:24,350 --> 00:20:27,469 S2: the social environment for their kids while they're off at school. 357 00:20:27,470 --> 00:20:30,350 S2: And so I would encourage more states to adopt that 358 00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:33,429 S2: approach like Virginia has, and for schools to do so 359 00:20:33,470 --> 00:20:35,060 S2: at the school level as well. 360 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:39,580 S1: But parents have been told, hey, just just make it 361 00:20:39,580 --> 00:20:42,940 S1: 30 minutes a day. It's not that big of a deal. 362 00:20:42,940 --> 00:20:46,300 S1: And you've got these parental controls. You mentioned that a 363 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:49,660 S1: little earlier that this is a myth. Why is the 364 00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:52,940 S1: screen time and parental control a myth? 365 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:57,060 S2: So the biggest thing about screen time limit is that 366 00:20:57,060 --> 00:21:00,340 S2: a child's amount of time spent on the device does 367 00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:03,660 S2: not map on to their mental or emotional time. And 368 00:21:04,020 --> 00:21:06,820 S2: by that I mean because it is addictive. Even when 369 00:21:06,820 --> 00:21:10,220 S2: they log off, they are constantly thinking about what is 370 00:21:10,220 --> 00:21:12,940 S2: happening on the apps or the device, what they're missing 371 00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:16,340 S2: when they're not on it. They feel actually a compulsive 372 00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:19,060 S2: behavior to want to go back on. And that is 373 00:21:19,060 --> 00:21:21,340 S2: what I'm trying to say. It's not neutral, it's addictive. 374 00:21:21,340 --> 00:21:23,860 S2: And so no time limit is ever enough, but that 375 00:21:23,859 --> 00:21:28,300 S2: it actually changes their their emotions and their mental attitude 376 00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:30,340 S2: for the rest of the day. Even when they're not 377 00:21:30,380 --> 00:21:33,330 S2: on the app, they're still living in the virtual world, 378 00:21:33,330 --> 00:21:35,530 S2: even when they leave it and they carry it with them. 379 00:21:35,570 --> 00:21:37,970 S2: And so I think that is important for parents to understand, 380 00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:41,050 S2: is that the time limits don't match a child's mental 381 00:21:41,050 --> 00:21:45,050 S2: or emotional time spent. And then the parental controls, I 382 00:21:45,050 --> 00:21:48,490 S2: particularly try to explain to parents like it is impossible 383 00:21:48,490 --> 00:21:51,490 S2: to lock down a smartphone. Um, it is just there 384 00:21:51,490 --> 00:21:55,409 S2: are hundreds and thousands of apps, each with their own 385 00:21:55,410 --> 00:21:59,050 S2: in-app browser and their own portal to the internet. And 386 00:21:59,050 --> 00:22:02,770 S2: it is extremely difficult to effectively close down every possible 387 00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:05,730 S2: loophole or point of entry to the internet. And often 388 00:22:05,890 --> 00:22:09,410 S2: some of the worst apps do not allow access by 389 00:22:09,410 --> 00:22:12,730 S2: third party controls. They may let you set time limits, 390 00:22:13,010 --> 00:22:17,250 S2: but it's impossible to shut down every potential loophole like TikTok, 391 00:22:17,290 --> 00:22:21,090 S2: especially Snapchat. They block any third party controls, and so 392 00:22:21,090 --> 00:22:23,689 S2: even if a parent was trying to see into what 393 00:22:23,730 --> 00:22:25,930 S2: a child is doing or seeing on those apps, they're 394 00:22:25,930 --> 00:22:28,970 S2: really flying blind. They would have no idea. For example, 395 00:22:28,970 --> 00:22:31,550 S2: a child could actually click on a link to a 396 00:22:31,550 --> 00:22:35,790 S2: pornography website inside of Snapchat. Never leaving the app. They're 397 00:22:35,790 --> 00:22:38,550 S2: not actually leaving the app. They're accessing it inside the app, 398 00:22:38,550 --> 00:22:41,270 S2: and the parental controls are blocked. And so when there 399 00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:43,710 S2: are thousands of portals to the internet where kids can 400 00:22:43,710 --> 00:22:47,949 S2: be coming across such dangerous content like pornography, um, the 401 00:22:47,950 --> 00:22:50,790 S2: last piece I will say is you can't filter out 402 00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:54,030 S2: the feeds of the social media apps themselves. Um, the 403 00:22:54,030 --> 00:22:56,790 S2: social media companies are not letting parents decide what their 404 00:22:56,790 --> 00:22:58,990 S2: kids are seeing or doing in the feeds. That's all 405 00:22:58,990 --> 00:23:02,429 S2: dictated by their algorithms. And so they're not actually giving 406 00:23:02,430 --> 00:23:06,109 S2: parents real control or insight into what children are seeing 407 00:23:06,109 --> 00:23:08,670 S2: or doing. At most, they may allow you to set 408 00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:11,670 S2: time limits or some privacy settings, but it's just it's 409 00:23:11,670 --> 00:23:15,910 S2: too difficult to oversee a smartphone that is just inherently 410 00:23:15,910 --> 00:23:19,189 S2: just so small. It's actually very difficult for a parent 411 00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:21,870 S2: to see into. And so I try to distinguish between 412 00:23:21,869 --> 00:23:25,270 S2: those types of devices that are inherently impossible to lock 413 00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:29,149 S2: down versus a family home computer, where you could install 414 00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:31,820 S2: an internet filter and have it in a public place 415 00:23:31,820 --> 00:23:34,660 S2: where there's just one internet browser on the computer. That's 416 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:38,220 S2: actually much more manageable for a parent to effectively oversee. 417 00:23:38,619 --> 00:23:42,260 S2: But smart devices, they're not designed with trying to actually 418 00:23:42,260 --> 00:23:44,940 S2: give parents real control over what kids are doing or 419 00:23:44,940 --> 00:23:47,780 S2: seeing in these apps, and there are just thousands of them. 420 00:23:48,180 --> 00:23:50,940 S1: This makes so much sense to me, Claire, and I'm 421 00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:53,980 S1: glad you've written The Tech Exit A Practical Guide to 422 00:23:54,020 --> 00:23:58,780 S1: Freeing Kids and Teens from smartphones. But there is, from 423 00:23:58,780 --> 00:24:01,340 S1: what rosy has said about her classroom and what you 424 00:24:01,340 --> 00:24:04,980 S1: write about in the book and the different responses that 425 00:24:04,980 --> 00:24:09,300 S1: people have. It is really difficult for the kids and 426 00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:11,419 S1: the adults as well. So in our next segment, I 427 00:24:11,420 --> 00:24:14,820 S1: want to talk about that. Nathan called from Florida and asked, 428 00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:17,940 S1: what's the difference between playing games on a tablet today 429 00:24:17,940 --> 00:24:21,460 S1: for kids versus playing games on a TV like we 430 00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:25,140 S1: did with Nintendo and Mario Brothers and all that? Is 431 00:24:25,140 --> 00:24:26,100 S1: there a difference? 432 00:24:26,859 --> 00:24:28,770 S2: Yes. And I will say, you know, I this is 433 00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:31,369 S2: not my exact area of expertise is the difference in 434 00:24:31,410 --> 00:24:33,810 S2: kind of the video games that as they've evolved. But 435 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:35,770 S2: I will say the problem with a lot of the 436 00:24:35,770 --> 00:24:39,890 S2: tablets is that it's it's an endless amount of content. 437 00:24:39,890 --> 00:24:43,570 S2: There's always another level in the game. There are also. 438 00:24:43,570 --> 00:24:47,130 S2: So it's like infinite options. You can be playing all 439 00:24:47,130 --> 00:24:50,129 S2: sorts of games, jumping back and forth between them. I 440 00:24:50,130 --> 00:24:53,170 S2: think TVs and old school video games had a lot 441 00:24:53,170 --> 00:24:56,730 S2: more natural limits built in, and the tablet is kind 442 00:24:56,730 --> 00:25:00,290 S2: of an infinite, um, amount of different types of games. 443 00:25:00,290 --> 00:25:03,050 S2: And then even within the gaming apps is just infinite 444 00:25:03,050 --> 00:25:05,970 S2: amounts of levels and tokens, and it's a lot more 445 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:10,130 S2: interactive of an experience. Most of these games now have 446 00:25:10,170 --> 00:25:13,250 S2: social media components built into them, where they can be 447 00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:18,570 S2: messaging with complete strangers online. Increasingly, sadly, predators are using 448 00:25:18,570 --> 00:25:21,489 S2: the gaming apps to gain access to children, appearing like 449 00:25:21,530 --> 00:25:24,330 S2: a peer playing the game with them. Um, and just 450 00:25:24,330 --> 00:25:27,129 S2: the amount of feedback is so much more because, again, 451 00:25:27,130 --> 00:25:30,830 S2: of that dopamine hits. They're trying to constantly provide those feedback. 452 00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:33,710 S1: All right. When we come back we are going to 453 00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:36,669 S1: go right into the detox and we're going to hear 454 00:25:36,670 --> 00:25:40,149 S1: from Claire Morrell. The book is The Tech Exit A 455 00:25:40,150 --> 00:25:44,310 S1: Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones. It's 456 00:25:44,310 --> 00:26:06,110 S1: our featured resource. Just go to Chris. Chris favorite. Claire 457 00:26:06,109 --> 00:26:09,190 S1: Morrell and her husband have three children. They live in Washington, 458 00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:13,190 S1: DC and they are both. This is one of the 459 00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:16,750 S1: ideas about the detox. You have to be have a 460 00:26:16,750 --> 00:26:20,230 S1: unified front. If you're a husband and wife and you're 461 00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:23,550 S1: dealing with this tech exit. That's the book that Claire 462 00:26:23,550 --> 00:26:26,980 S1: has written, The Tech Exit A Practical guide to freeing 463 00:26:26,980 --> 00:26:30,580 S1: kids and teens from smartphones? And if you're just joining 464 00:26:30,580 --> 00:26:32,820 S1: us and you're saying, well, here's a mom, here's a 465 00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:35,100 S1: young mom, mom of young kids, you know, what does 466 00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:38,340 S1: she know? She is the director of Technology and Human 467 00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:41,500 S1: Flourishing Project. She's a fellow at the Ethics and Public 468 00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:44,700 S1: Policy Center. She worked in the white House counsel's office 469 00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:48,420 S1: and the Department of Justice. So part of the reason 470 00:26:48,420 --> 00:26:52,060 S1: why you became so concerned about this is you saw 471 00:26:52,060 --> 00:26:55,700 S1: what was going on. You saw the dark web, you 472 00:26:55,700 --> 00:26:58,540 S1: saw the predators, you saw the algorithms and what it 473 00:26:58,540 --> 00:27:02,140 S1: was doing to kids. And so you thought, no, we're 474 00:27:02,140 --> 00:27:04,420 S1: going to we're going to start early if you can 475 00:27:04,420 --> 00:27:07,780 S1: catch this early. And but if you have teenagers that 476 00:27:07,780 --> 00:27:11,060 S1: are already they have their smartphones, this will work for 477 00:27:11,060 --> 00:27:14,820 S1: you as well. So take me to the tech exit. 478 00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:18,940 S1: What is a detox look like and how do you start? 479 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,820 S2: Absolutely. And yes, if you have if you have that 480 00:27:22,820 --> 00:27:26,210 S2: privilege of knowing this now start young while you can. 481 00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:29,770 S2: But also, it's never too late. A digital detox can 482 00:27:29,770 --> 00:27:33,170 S2: benefit anyone at any age, at any time. And so 483 00:27:33,170 --> 00:27:35,450 S2: I walk parents through, like, if that's you, if you've 484 00:27:35,450 --> 00:27:37,930 S2: already given the tablet or the smartphone or the social 485 00:27:37,930 --> 00:27:40,609 S2: media app to your child, what do you do? Well, 486 00:27:40,609 --> 00:27:43,810 S2: start with a 30 day digital detox, and I have 487 00:27:43,810 --> 00:27:47,290 S2: heard from family after family who have successfully done this 488 00:27:47,290 --> 00:27:49,770 S2: and they say, you know, they really couldn't imagine dealing 489 00:27:49,770 --> 00:27:53,330 S2: with their children without the tablet, but they were able 490 00:27:53,330 --> 00:27:56,770 S2: to just do a detox. And that just looked like 491 00:27:57,050 --> 00:27:58,770 S2: you asked me, how do you do this? So I 492 00:27:58,770 --> 00:28:01,490 S2: would just say, you have to prepare because it will 493 00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:05,450 S2: be hard initially. And so you want to first just 494 00:28:05,450 --> 00:28:09,570 S2: prepare a plan with your spouse, get your spouse on board. 495 00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:12,450 S2: You want to make sure that they understand the rationale 496 00:28:12,490 --> 00:28:15,449 S2: behind why you want to do this and prepare yourself. 497 00:28:15,450 --> 00:28:18,250 S2: You want to look at the research. The studies know 498 00:28:18,250 --> 00:28:20,290 S2: why you're doing this so that you really shore up 499 00:28:20,290 --> 00:28:22,970 S2: your own convictions. So there are those times during the 500 00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:24,920 S2: detox where it might feel hard and you just keep 501 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,800 S2: going and then prepare your kids and prepare your house. 502 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,239 S2: And so what I recommend is just getting all the 503 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,159 S2: screens out of your house, because to do a detox, 504 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,560 S2: I should say the detox ground rules are just no tablets, 505 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,680 S2: no social media, no smartphones, no video games, no interactive 506 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,560 S2: screens for 30 days. And that may sound daunting, but 507 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,160 S2: I think anyone can actually commit to doing something for 508 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,720 S2: 30 days. Even if you're doubtful of whether you can 509 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,200 S2: keep this lifestyle going over the longer term. And what 510 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,080 S2: most parents told me is that once they prepared and 511 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,760 S2: had a plan and got their kids on board, even 512 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,400 S2: if their kids were wary, they tried to really make 513 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,280 S2: the plan very fun of. These are all the things 514 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,880 S2: we're going to do to fill your time, not on screens. 515 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,200 S2: And I think it is really important to plan that out, 516 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,800 S2: because if the screens have been the default, you're going 517 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,719 S2: to need to come up with other ways that you're 518 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,800 S2: going to fill your kids times. And at first, it's 519 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,240 S2: going to take more parental time and attention and involvement 520 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,630 S2: in helping your kids learn to entertain themselves off of screens. 521 00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:27,710 S2: But the amazing thing is that once parents said that 522 00:29:27,710 --> 00:29:30,870 S2: they kept going, they kind of pushed through those initial 523 00:29:30,910 --> 00:29:34,790 S2: points of resistance or that initial involvement that was required, 524 00:29:34,790 --> 00:29:38,310 S2: it got easier. The kids actually learned to entertain themselves 525 00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:42,110 S2: and they actually stopped asking for the screens. Their habits 526 00:29:42,110 --> 00:29:45,710 S2: were reformed off of the devices. And so it's there's 527 00:29:45,710 --> 00:29:48,070 S2: a lot of science to why the 30 days is 528 00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:52,870 S2: particularly helpful to reregulate kind of the body's dopamine levels 529 00:29:53,230 --> 00:29:55,830 S2: back to a normal baseline, so that they actually do 530 00:29:55,870 --> 00:29:59,550 S2: feel pleasure again from real world activities, um, and kind 531 00:29:59,550 --> 00:30:03,190 S2: of calming down their nervous system that is often just 532 00:30:03,230 --> 00:30:06,790 S2: overstimulated and dysregulated by the screens. And so I can 533 00:30:06,790 --> 00:30:12,310 S2: just share story after story of families who successfully detoxed, um, 534 00:30:12,350 --> 00:30:14,830 S2: who were able to do this successfully. And, and the 535 00:30:14,830 --> 00:30:17,830 S2: results to them were just so amazing. They kept going 536 00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:19,910 S2: over the long term. They said, if we see these 537 00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:22,330 S2: changes in our kids, you know. Why would we go 538 00:30:22,330 --> 00:30:24,690 S2: back to the screens? And so I would say just 539 00:30:24,690 --> 00:30:27,890 S2: start with 30 days, commit to it, set aside the 540 00:30:27,890 --> 00:30:30,250 S2: time on your calendar, come up with the plan of 541 00:30:30,250 --> 00:30:33,130 S2: what you're going to do instead. And if you can 542 00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:35,770 S2: find one other family to do this with you, just 543 00:30:35,810 --> 00:30:39,170 S2: having a buddy to do the detox with is can 544 00:30:39,170 --> 00:30:41,610 S2: be really helpful for the parents and helpful for the 545 00:30:41,610 --> 00:30:43,930 S2: kids to know other friends of theirs who are also 546 00:30:43,930 --> 00:30:46,890 S2: detoxing at the same time. So those are kind of 547 00:30:46,930 --> 00:30:48,330 S2: the practical steps. 548 00:30:48,530 --> 00:30:51,210 S1: I love it. So back it up then. And and 549 00:30:51,250 --> 00:30:55,050 S1: that very first thing you have to repair. Prepare yourself. 550 00:30:55,410 --> 00:30:58,490 S1: What if you are all on board and you say, 551 00:30:58,490 --> 00:31:00,690 S1: I see everything that Claire is talking about. I see 552 00:31:00,690 --> 00:31:02,810 S1: it in my kids, I see it in myself. And 553 00:31:02,810 --> 00:31:06,250 S1: I want to do this. But your spouse says that's 554 00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:09,570 S1: way too overboard. No, we're not going to. You know, 555 00:31:09,610 --> 00:31:12,490 S1: you're having a hard time getting your spouse on board. 556 00:31:12,530 --> 00:31:13,650 S1: What do you do with that? 557 00:31:14,490 --> 00:31:19,920 S2: Yeah. So your spouse doesn't have to necessarily agree 100% 558 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,440 S2: with everything that you're saying. They may be skeptical, but 559 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,000 S2: just ask them if they would just commit to trying 560 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,760 S2: this for 30 days, because I've often heard sometimes from parents. Well, 561 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,280 S2: I mean, I don't think our kids are that bad. Like, 562 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,160 S2: I don't really see a difference, but it's actually hard 563 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,840 S2: to see the difference until you take the screens away. 564 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,040 S2: And so many parents have said, wow, I didn't realize 565 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,880 S2: how much their personalities had changed because I didn't know 566 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,920 S2: what they would be like until I saw what they 567 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,280 S2: are like off of the screens. And so I think 568 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,240 S2: seeing the results for yourself can be extremely just eye 569 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,000 S2: opening and motivating. So just asking your spouse if they 570 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,840 S2: would just commit to doing this for 30 days to 571 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,160 S2: see the results and say, hey, let's just try it out. 572 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,360 S2: This is a trial period. Can we just see what 573 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,840 S2: it's like for our children and our family if we're 574 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,720 S2: just off of the screens for 30 days? Because you 575 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,920 S2: may just be surprised at the results of just the 576 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,640 S2: benefits that you didn't know you were missing out on 577 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,950 S2: just by trying it out. I would also say in 578 00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:21,270 S2: in ways that you can show them some of the 579 00:32:21,270 --> 00:32:23,670 S2: things that you're reading. They don't necessarily have to read 580 00:32:23,670 --> 00:32:26,670 S2: the entire book like you are or the article, but 581 00:32:26,670 --> 00:32:29,150 S2: just pointing out to them the reasons that you want 582 00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:31,910 S2: to do this. You know, this study, I'm very concerned 583 00:32:31,910 --> 00:32:34,190 S2: about the effects this could be having on our kids. 584 00:32:34,190 --> 00:32:36,550 S2: Give them some of the materials that you're reading so 585 00:32:36,550 --> 00:32:39,430 S2: they can see it and understand for themselves. And if 586 00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:41,230 S2: you have a copy of my book, The Tech Exit, 587 00:32:41,230 --> 00:32:44,190 S2: I would say this is another just very practical ask. 588 00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:46,510 S2: Ask your spouse to just read through the first couple 589 00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:50,230 S2: chapters on the reasons why these strategies aren't working, and 590 00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:52,430 S2: just ask if they would just try out this detox 591 00:32:52,430 --> 00:32:52,990 S2: with you. 592 00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:57,310 S1: Would it be helpful? If 30 days sounds too daunting, 593 00:32:57,310 --> 00:33:01,230 S1: would it be helpful to do just a day or what? 594 00:33:01,270 --> 00:33:04,310 S1: What about an evening where we've all put our screens 595 00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:09,150 S1: away that would that be help ease things into it? 596 00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:12,830 S2: Yes. In fact, a couple of the families, um, who 597 00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:15,870 S2: eventually did the 30 days, said at first they kind 598 00:33:15,870 --> 00:33:18,340 S2: of took some of those baby steps of just trying 599 00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:21,580 S2: out a phone free evening or a phone free day, 600 00:33:21,780 --> 00:33:24,060 S2: just to try to start getting a taste for what 601 00:33:24,060 --> 00:33:26,780 S2: that was like, because even a short amount of time 602 00:33:26,780 --> 00:33:29,900 S2: can be revealing of just how addictive these devices are, 603 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:32,900 S2: how you feel, this constant pull to check this thing, uh, 604 00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:35,020 S2: when you realize you're you're doing that when you don't 605 00:33:35,020 --> 00:33:37,900 S2: have it, when you've actually taken it away. And so 606 00:33:37,940 --> 00:33:41,220 S2: I think in any amount, it can be very helpful, 607 00:33:41,220 --> 00:33:44,740 S2: at least, to reveal the kind of harms that we 608 00:33:44,740 --> 00:33:47,740 S2: may not be as aware of when we do take 609 00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:51,020 S2: it away. It's much more eye opening. And so, um, yes, 610 00:33:51,020 --> 00:33:54,780 S2: many families kind of tested it out in even smaller increments, um, 611 00:33:54,780 --> 00:33:57,420 S2: starting with a day or a phone free meal or 612 00:33:57,460 --> 00:34:00,340 S2: a phone free evening, um, maybe even working them their 613 00:34:00,340 --> 00:34:03,100 S2: way up to a screen free week. Um, and just 614 00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:06,020 S2: going on a screen free family vacation and letting that 615 00:34:06,060 --> 00:34:09,899 S2: kind of experience, um, whet your appetite and make it 616 00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:12,460 S2: seem more possible to even then go and do the 617 00:34:12,460 --> 00:34:15,100 S2: full 30 days, uh, where you will see the kind 618 00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:18,840 S2: of greatest effects because of just some of those biological reasons. 619 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,480 S2: It just takes a little bit more time. And it 620 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,760 S2: just it takes also more time to completely reform our habits. Um, 621 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,200 S2: habits are hard to break, but 30 days really can 622 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,040 S2: reshape our habits. But yes, um, I would encourage you 623 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,120 S2: to try it out in whatever capacity you think you 624 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,439 S2: can start with for your family, even if that's just 625 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,480 S2: a phone free day of the week. 626 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,600 S1: In the book you write, Melanie finds the best way 627 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,120 S1: to start the detox is going away as a family 628 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,640 S1: for the weekend on a screen free wilderness trip together 629 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,239 S1: like camping or staying at a cabin. And, uh, you, 630 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,080 S1: you kind of ease it in there. And so they see, oh, well, 631 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,759 S1: we're playing more games together. We're talking, we're walking in 632 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,120 S1: the woods, we're in nature, wildlife, etcetera, etcetera. But then 633 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,000 S1: you come back to the to the real, quote unquote, 634 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,479 S1: real world where you're used to having those screens. And 635 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,520 S1: it can be really hard for a teenager, for example. Well, uh, 636 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,110 S1: baseball practice is only online. I can only find it online. 637 00:35:16,110 --> 00:35:18,390 S1: Or they send me a text for the you know 638 00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:21,630 S1: what I'm going to be playing or what uniform to wear. 639 00:35:21,989 --> 00:35:26,830 S1: Those types of things that come now with the with 640 00:35:26,830 --> 00:35:30,549 S1: the smartphone, it's like you've got to have one in 641 00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:33,350 S1: order to to function in society. 642 00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:36,630 S2: Yes. This is the challenge. And I love that you 643 00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:39,950 S2: mentioned that wilderness trip, because I do think sometimes getting 644 00:35:39,989 --> 00:35:42,589 S2: even just outside of your normal day to day context 645 00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:44,950 S2: can be helpful for trying something out for the first 646 00:35:44,950 --> 00:35:47,709 S2: time and making it a fun experience together. But yes, 647 00:35:47,710 --> 00:35:49,469 S2: then you're right. You come back to real life. And 648 00:35:49,469 --> 00:35:52,670 S2: how are you going to navigate an increasingly app based 649 00:35:52,670 --> 00:35:55,190 S2: culture where everything is now an app? And I would 650 00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:58,270 S2: say the big kind of strategy for success that stood 651 00:35:58,270 --> 00:36:00,310 S2: out to me from all the families I spoke with, 652 00:36:00,310 --> 00:36:03,870 S2: was that the parents actually just did not accept this 653 00:36:03,870 --> 00:36:07,549 S2: premise of inevitability of the smartphone. They would talk to 654 00:36:07,590 --> 00:36:10,149 S2: the coach, they would talk to the teacher, and they 655 00:36:10,150 --> 00:36:12,589 S2: would find a workaround. They would say, well, my son 656 00:36:12,590 --> 00:36:14,899 S2: or daughter is not going to have a smartphone, so 657 00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:17,219 S2: they're not going to have the app. And can we 658 00:36:17,260 --> 00:36:19,940 S2: find another way for you to be with our family 659 00:36:19,940 --> 00:36:24,100 S2: about the practices? And I even interviewed a grown teen 660 00:36:24,140 --> 00:36:26,819 S2: who grew up three of a smartphone. And I asked 661 00:36:26,820 --> 00:36:29,259 S2: him that because he said, you know, his team did 662 00:36:29,260 --> 00:36:31,739 S2: communicate through an app. And I said, well, what was 663 00:36:31,739 --> 00:36:34,339 S2: that effect like? Did you did you feel left out? 664 00:36:34,340 --> 00:36:37,820 S2: Was that frustrating? And he said, honestly, no. Um, everyone 665 00:36:37,860 --> 00:36:40,460 S2: on my team, I didn't have a smartphone. And so 666 00:36:40,460 --> 00:36:43,140 S2: they just always called me and made sure I had 667 00:36:43,140 --> 00:36:45,500 S2: the information that I needed or, you know, sent me 668 00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:47,819 S2: a text on my dumb phone and said, hey, this 669 00:36:47,820 --> 00:36:50,260 S2: is what time the practice is at. And so, um, 670 00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:53,020 S2: I think we just have to be willing to accept 671 00:36:53,180 --> 00:36:56,660 S2: as parents that we can actually find workarounds. We don't 672 00:36:56,660 --> 00:36:59,700 S2: have to just say, okay, I guess this is the reason. 673 00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:01,419 S2: Now I'm going to have to cave in and give 674 00:37:01,420 --> 00:37:03,900 S2: a smartphone because now my son or daughter is required 675 00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:08,380 S2: to have XYZ app. And for every parent that resists that, 676 00:37:09,140 --> 00:37:13,290 S2: that's kind of the smartphone, uh, being required makes it 677 00:37:13,290 --> 00:37:16,370 S2: easier on the next parent to say, hey, we want 678 00:37:16,410 --> 00:37:18,770 S2: another way to stay in touch. We're not going to 679 00:37:18,969 --> 00:37:21,210 S2: give a child a smartphone so that they can be 680 00:37:21,210 --> 00:37:23,850 S2: a part of this, this sports team. You're going to 681 00:37:23,850 --> 00:37:25,890 S2: have to find another way to get in touch with us. 682 00:37:25,890 --> 00:37:28,009 S2: And so it's I think it's possible. And I think 683 00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:31,010 S2: the more parents, um, that kind of raise their voices 684 00:37:31,010 --> 00:37:32,810 S2: and say, no, we're not going to be getting a 685 00:37:32,810 --> 00:37:36,089 S2: smartphone for this makes it easier on everyone. And then 686 00:37:36,090 --> 00:37:38,290 S2: maybe you change the culture of the team and they 687 00:37:38,290 --> 00:37:41,330 S2: they actually stop using an app, uh, for staying in touch. 688 00:37:41,330 --> 00:37:44,290 S2: And so I think it's important that we as parents, um, 689 00:37:44,290 --> 00:37:47,810 S2: really just kind of stand up and face this, uh, 690 00:37:47,810 --> 00:37:49,930 S2: this tyranny of the smartphone to say, you know, no, 691 00:37:49,930 --> 00:37:51,090 S2: we're not going to do that. 692 00:37:51,690 --> 00:37:55,569 S1: This is doable. That's what Claire Morrell is saying today 693 00:37:55,570 --> 00:37:58,410 S1: at the back fence. It's the Tech Exit a Practical 694 00:37:58,410 --> 00:38:02,850 S1: guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. And dare 695 00:38:02,850 --> 00:38:06,730 S1: I say, for adults as well, or the people in 696 00:38:06,730 --> 00:38:11,350 S1: my age bracket. Um, this is really helpful and a 697 00:38:11,350 --> 00:38:14,950 S1: little scary and will continue more with Claire. Straight ahead 698 00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:28,870 S1: on Moody Radio. Listener emailed about the Texas school system 699 00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:35,430 S1: effective June 2025, 2025. Texas House Bill 1481 passed during 700 00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:38,950 S1: the 89th legislative session, requiring all school systems to adopt 701 00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:42,910 S1: and implement a policy prohibiting the use of personal communication 702 00:38:42,910 --> 00:38:46,830 S1: devices by students on school property during the school day. 703 00:38:47,310 --> 00:38:51,950 S1: So things are changing, but the best. And I'm all 704 00:38:51,950 --> 00:38:57,630 S1: for change globally. You know, nationally, locally. But the real 705 00:38:57,630 --> 00:39:01,509 S1: change comes in my heart and yours and the parents 706 00:39:01,510 --> 00:39:04,230 S1: heart for their kids. And that's why I wanted to 707 00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:08,190 S1: have Claire Morrell with us today. The tech exit is 708 00:39:08,190 --> 00:39:11,140 S1: our featured resource. Click through today's information. You'll see it 709 00:39:11,140 --> 00:39:14,299 S1: right there. It's a practical guide to freeing kids and 710 00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:19,580 S1: teens from smartphones. We've just talked about this 30 day detox, 711 00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:23,100 S1: and I can see some parents saying, depending on the 712 00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:25,660 S1: ages of their kids, I'm going to have to spend 713 00:39:25,660 --> 00:39:27,700 S1: all this time with them. We're going to be playing 714 00:39:27,739 --> 00:39:32,860 S1: ultimate monopoly games or Scrabble or, you know, whatever. Candyland. 715 00:39:32,860 --> 00:39:36,420 S1: Can you imagine 30 days, 30 days of Candyland? I 716 00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:39,140 S1: don't think I can handle it. I don't think you 717 00:39:39,140 --> 00:39:43,219 S1: think that you have to fill up your child's time 718 00:39:43,219 --> 00:39:47,540 S1: every moment of every day that they have to, to take. 719 00:39:47,820 --> 00:39:49,580 S1: So if you take away the smartphone. 720 00:39:50,780 --> 00:39:53,299 S2: No, no, it does not need to be, you know, 721 00:39:53,340 --> 00:39:57,100 S2: completely all the parent. I would say initially it may 722 00:39:57,140 --> 00:40:00,420 S2: involve a little bit more parental direction to suggest things. 723 00:40:00,460 --> 00:40:03,060 S2: You know, why don't you go outside, we have these 724 00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:05,739 S2: sports equipment or these balls or you could go ride 725 00:40:05,739 --> 00:40:09,330 S2: your bike. It may just take more assistance to help 726 00:40:09,330 --> 00:40:12,969 S2: the child engage with non screen free, you know screen 727 00:40:12,969 --> 00:40:15,450 S2: free activities. But it doesn't mean that it will always 728 00:40:15,450 --> 00:40:18,009 S2: stay that way. In fact a lot of parents mentioned 729 00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:20,170 S2: about like a week or so in they felt like 730 00:40:20,170 --> 00:40:22,610 S2: they started to get to this tipping point where they, 731 00:40:22,610 --> 00:40:25,010 S2: they realized they didn't have to be directing the children 732 00:40:25,010 --> 00:40:27,250 S2: as much. They were coming up with their own ideas. 733 00:40:27,250 --> 00:40:29,930 S2: Because what happens actually is when you take the screen 734 00:40:29,930 --> 00:40:35,130 S2: away is children's natural imagination and creativity starts to come back, 735 00:40:35,170 --> 00:40:37,090 S2: and all you really have to do is just offer 736 00:40:37,090 --> 00:40:40,810 S2: them the materials and they will make, you know, their 737 00:40:40,810 --> 00:40:43,649 S2: own games, their own art. Um, so just it is 738 00:40:43,650 --> 00:40:46,170 S2: helpful to have certain things like, you know, arts and 739 00:40:46,170 --> 00:40:48,770 S2: crafts supplies around your house for them to pick up, um, 740 00:40:48,810 --> 00:40:53,050 S2: fun board games, outdoor toys like balls and bikes and, um, 741 00:40:53,050 --> 00:40:56,610 S2: sports equipment. But then really just you're kind of directing 742 00:40:56,610 --> 00:41:01,170 S2: them and then they will increasingly, uh, develop the skills 743 00:41:01,170 --> 00:41:03,490 S2: to entertain themselves. And so what I try to explain 744 00:41:03,489 --> 00:41:06,569 S2: to parents, there are some short term costs involved, uh, 745 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,040 S2: particularly in the beginning, giving a little more time and 746 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,200 S2: attention to helping them come up with and engage in 747 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,040 S2: those screen free activities. Um, but actually those costs really 748 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,440 S2: diminish because over the long term, they actually entertain themselves 749 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,759 S2: better instead of constantly asking for a screen, they're just 750 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,440 S2: outside making up their own games. And so it gets 751 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,399 S2: easier the more that you allow them to just be 752 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,120 S2: off of the screens. Um, and even to just be bored. 753 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,360 S2: I think we actually have to get used to this idea. 754 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,799 S2: It's okay for kids to be bored. They don't have 755 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,640 S2: to be constantly entertained or even entertained by the parents. 756 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,440 S2: But that boredom is really, um, the kind of father 757 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,320 S2: of innovation and that they will come up with things 758 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,160 S2: to do just by even being bored and having that 759 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,600 S2: time to reflect and to think to themselves. And so 760 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,600 S2: it's not a bad thing if your kids are a 761 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,960 S2: little bit bored. Um, and then it does help to 762 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,680 S2: kind of offer them some ideas and activities, but they 763 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,960 S2: will gain those skills and get better at entertaining themselves, um, 764 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,020 S2: as they practice that, skill. 765 00:42:06,580 --> 00:42:08,420 S1: Do any of the people that you've talked with, the 766 00:42:08,420 --> 00:42:12,740 S1: parents say that their kids have less anxiety, less depression, 767 00:42:12,739 --> 00:42:17,260 S1: less social anxiety because of this? 768 00:42:17,980 --> 00:42:21,339 S2: Oh, 100%. And even teachers will tell me they can 769 00:42:21,340 --> 00:42:23,739 S2: tell in the school, the kids who have smartphones and 770 00:42:23,739 --> 00:42:25,500 S2: those who don't because they said that the kids who 771 00:42:25,540 --> 00:42:28,779 S2: don't have smartphones are not anxious. Talking to the teachers, 772 00:42:28,780 --> 00:42:31,899 S2: they'll make eye contact, be able to carry on a conversation. 773 00:42:31,900 --> 00:42:34,140 S2: But the kids who do have smartphones struggle with a 774 00:42:34,180 --> 00:42:37,060 S2: lot of social anxiety. They feel uncomfortable talking to people 775 00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:39,819 S2: in real life. They'll kind of avert their eyes and 776 00:42:39,820 --> 00:42:42,900 S2: just be nervous talking to adults like their teachers or 777 00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:46,140 S2: school administrators. And so parents say that they have just 778 00:42:46,140 --> 00:42:50,500 S2: noticed that that actually taking kids off screens and helping 779 00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:53,340 S2: them engage with the real world, and particularly with real 780 00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:57,100 S2: world relationships with their family members, um, and taking on 781 00:42:57,100 --> 00:43:01,299 S2: real world responsibilities like chores and tasks around the household. 782 00:43:01,340 --> 00:43:03,300 S2: You know, a lot of these screen free activities isn't 783 00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:06,730 S2: just pure entertainment. I mean, hobbies are great things for kids, 784 00:43:06,969 --> 00:43:08,930 S2: but so are helping them take on more and more 785 00:43:08,969 --> 00:43:13,050 S2: adult like responsibilities to help them progress towards adulthood. Starting 786 00:43:13,050 --> 00:43:15,850 S2: with just basic chores around the house. But what these 787 00:43:15,850 --> 00:43:18,450 S2: families say is that by teaching kids how to love 788 00:43:18,450 --> 00:43:21,609 S2: and serve other people, it really takes their eyes off 789 00:43:21,610 --> 00:43:25,530 S2: of themselves. And the screen and social media apps is 790 00:43:25,570 --> 00:43:29,770 S2: are encouragingly are encouraging kids to really turn very inwards 791 00:43:29,770 --> 00:43:32,370 S2: on themselves. And, and all they're worried about is how 792 00:43:32,370 --> 00:43:34,810 S2: many likes their photo got or did they get new 793 00:43:34,810 --> 00:43:38,810 S2: text messages. It's all these metrics about how other people 794 00:43:38,810 --> 00:43:42,969 S2: perceive you. And so it's just an incredibly anxiety inducing 795 00:43:43,010 --> 00:43:45,930 S2: thing where children are constantly kind of holding themselves out 796 00:43:45,930 --> 00:43:48,930 S2: to the world for judgment. Um, judgment from their peers. 797 00:43:48,930 --> 00:43:52,290 S2: And that's constant. Whereas when they're off the screen, they're 798 00:43:52,290 --> 00:43:55,370 S2: more focused on just loving and serving others in, in 799 00:43:55,410 --> 00:43:58,770 S2: the real world, um, in the real life relationships around them. 800 00:43:58,770 --> 00:44:01,410 S2: And so these parents have remarked to me that, you know, 801 00:44:01,450 --> 00:44:05,839 S2: service to others is a remarkable, just antidote to anxiety, 802 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,839 S2: and that these kids are just so much less anxious 803 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,280 S2: just by being free of the devices. 804 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,040 S1: But what about the pushback? Lucy is in Chicago. Lucy, 805 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:16,080 S1: what's your question? 806 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:22,880 S3: Yes. Um, I'm all for, um, the detox. And I've 807 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,400 S3: tried to implement everything that your speaker's talking about. However, 808 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,600 S3: the school mandates these devices, and for instance, they're making 809 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,759 S3: iPads mandatory, and I've approached the schools, but they're they're 810 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,279 S3: not willing to do anything about making any type of accommodations, 811 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,799 S3: because I've seen the behavior changes that have happened to 812 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,120 S3: my children. And, um, I'm just concerned that they're, um, 813 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,160 S3: they're already in high school, and they were totally fine 814 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,279 S3: up until they hit high school, and they were given 815 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,680 S3: these devices. Um, but it is permitted because the school 816 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,920 S3: allows it, and there's not really much I can do 817 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,110 S3: about the iPads and they always find a workaround. 818 00:45:04,310 --> 00:45:07,190 S1: Okay, we're running out of time here, Lucy. So, Claire, 819 00:45:07,230 --> 00:45:08,950 S1: what do you say in that situation? 820 00:45:09,469 --> 00:45:12,110 S2: I just want to say I feel for the parents 821 00:45:12,110 --> 00:45:14,750 S2: in this situation, and I address this in my book, 822 00:45:15,070 --> 00:45:17,470 S2: that it's not just about getting phones out of schools. 823 00:45:17,469 --> 00:45:19,870 S2: It's getting these other screens out of schools. And I 824 00:45:19,870 --> 00:45:22,270 S2: would just say, Lucy, like to you and every parent 825 00:45:22,270 --> 00:45:24,430 S2: out there, don't be afraid to raise your voice and 826 00:45:24,430 --> 00:45:27,390 S2: tell the school that you don't want these mandated devices. 827 00:45:27,390 --> 00:45:29,790 S2: And I think that for every parent that makes their 828 00:45:29,830 --> 00:45:33,950 S2: opinion known, like we can actually inspire change. And so 829 00:45:34,350 --> 00:45:37,670 S2: I just I realize that that's something outside of parents control. 830 00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:40,709 S2: Continue to do everything you can in your own home. Um, 831 00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:43,310 S2: and then really try to let the school know that 832 00:45:43,310 --> 00:45:45,550 S2: you don't want these devices mandated. 833 00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:49,630 S1: And if you have that rock ribbed belief that this 834 00:45:49,630 --> 00:45:52,469 S1: is this is not good for my children, there's probably 835 00:45:52,469 --> 00:45:57,630 S1: somebody on the the technology team or some other place, 836 00:45:57,630 --> 00:46:00,730 S1: some other teacher or administrator who agrees with you, and 837 00:46:00,730 --> 00:46:05,089 S1: maybe you find that person. Or you could go to 838 00:46:05,130 --> 00:46:07,729 S1: the school board and make a scene. I don't think 839 00:46:07,730 --> 00:46:09,930 S1: you think that's a good idea. I've seen those types 840 00:46:09,930 --> 00:46:13,250 S1: of things. Usually that doesn't work as well. But being 841 00:46:13,250 --> 00:46:15,770 S1: able to reason with people and saying, hey, this is 842 00:46:15,770 --> 00:46:18,850 S1: a real detriment here, and maybe the book would be 843 00:46:18,850 --> 00:46:21,810 S1: a good entree as well. The Tech exit. A Practical 844 00:46:21,810 --> 00:46:25,930 S1: guide for Freeing Kids and Teens from smartphones. And if 845 00:46:25,930 --> 00:46:29,330 S1: you go to Chris. Org and click through today's information, 846 00:46:29,330 --> 00:46:32,210 S1: you'll see that book right there written by our guest, 847 00:46:32,210 --> 00:46:35,410 S1: Claire Morrell. Claire, you did everything I asked you to 848 00:46:35,410 --> 00:46:38,370 S1: do today. Thank you for joining us. And keep doing 849 00:46:38,370 --> 00:46:39,450 S1: what you're doing, friend. 850 00:46:39,690 --> 00:46:42,569 S2: So glad to be here. Thanks for having me again. 851 00:46:42,610 --> 00:46:46,290 S1: Director of the Technology and Human Flourishing Project, Claire Morrell. 852 00:46:46,330 --> 00:46:49,610 S1: Chris Fabry Live is a production of Moody Radio ministry 853 00:46:49,610 --> 00:46:51,410 S1: of Moody Bible Institute.